Lewis Hamilton won the Spanish Grand Prix. His first win for Ferrari, at the circuit that rewards the car above almost everything else, after a year of being told that whatever he achieved before was the machinery and not the man.
Sabrina saw a driver answering his doubters. Joe kept pulling the conversation back to the things the celebration was skating over: a Mercedes that was quicker in qualifying, the heat, the virtual safety car, and a long history of Barcelona results that flattered to deceive. His read on whether this is the start of a Ferrari era is not the one social media wants to hear.
With Dick out for this one, it is just Sabrina and Joe, and the conversation ranges well past the podium. The Monaco mess that still has not been put to bed, and Sabrina’s argument for a fix that Joe thinks goes a step too far. What a struggling Red Bull and a quiet afternoon actually tell you about where this season stands. Whether Mercedes has a problem it would rather not name. And why Franco Colapinto being waved aside may say more about his future than his finishing position did.
Then the detail that reframes the whole day. Barcelona, Joe argues, is the most predictable race on the calendar, more so than Monaco, the one track built to expose exactly how good each car really is. So why, at the very circuit designed to settle the argument, did the two of them come away more certain than ever that nothing is settled?
A historic win at one end. A veteran who has watched too many of these to wave a flag at the other. And a season that keeps refusing to tell you what it is becoming.
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(00:03):
Hey friends, thanks for takingtime to listen in on a
conversation.
Joe Sayward and I had about thetwenty twenty six Barcelona
Grand Prix.
Dick hadn't missed this one, soLewis Hamilton won in red, his
lot of people had stoppedAfter a year of being told it
(00:25):
As you'll hear, I could not helpJoe, who has spent more time in
the paddock than almost anyone,spent the conversation gently
refusing to call it a turningpoint.
Whether Barcelona was the startof something for Hamilton and
Ferrari, or a perfect afternoon,the standings will quietly
correct may depend on who youask.
Before we get to ourask can you help us out?
(00:48):
If this show adds value to yourF1 experience, please take a
moment to follow us and give usfive stars on your favorite
podcast app.
Share this episode with other F1That's how people find us and
it's how we keep growing thiscommunity.
Hope you enjoy our conversation.
Okay.
Well, Joe, it is the days afterthe Barcelona Grand Prix and it
(01:11):
looks like it's you and metoday.
Dick has had to unavoidably missI know that that's not easy for
him, but we'll just have to keepgoing on.
Oh, absolutely.
I mean, it's it's unfortunate,of dealing with it on our own.
So, um, it was quite anObviously everyone's very
(01:37):
Um, and, uh, you know, it's a,Whenever there's a change,
And it's Lewis's first win atI mean, there were lots of
He's the first British driver towin at Ferrari since Mansell I
think.
And the podium was the first.
This is an extraordinaryThe podium was the first all
(02:00):
nineteen sixty eight.
And I thought, that's reallyweird because I'm sure I was at
one or two with with fullBritish podiums in the past, but
obviously not.
I must have just dreamed thatYeah, I was really impressed by
Yeah.
In the in the era of Schumacher,I suppose there were lots of
Brits, but Schumacher was alwaysthere or thereabouts, and I
(02:22):
think he probably spoiled it afew times.
But I thought, you know, withDamon Hill and with, with David
Coulthard and Johnny Herbertand, and all these guys, I
thought, I'm sure there was onesomewhere, but I couldn't find
one.
So, um, obviously there wasn't.
I just, I just imagined it.
So was that your race highlightthe fact that this was an
(02:44):
all-British podium.
Uh, what was my race highlight?
Um, I really have to say it'sback and winning in a Ferrari.
It's his first win in aYou know, what it does is it
this Lewis Hamilton guy, he'sHe can do it in other teams as
(03:08):
Very important point.
Not that anyone really doubtedI think the question was for
to be fair.
Um is he is he has he still gotIs he not too old?
And you know, for a while lastyear when Charles was beating
him, it was like, oh, come on,Lewis, you know, this isn't
(03:29):
great.
But he seems to have got it allHe's much happier now.
Um, he's in a happy place andfor the sport because you know,
figure and you know, Ferrari winEven if you even if you're not a
(03:49):
always good because there are soSo it's important.
It would be nice if they couldnot get carried away.
I think, yeah, for me it wasIf anything as I processed the
was a master class on so manytechnique, but it's also the
(04:14):
You could just see.
After Qualy, he was buzzing andjust his normal demeanour that
at least for me, I wonder whatAnd then to see how it unfolded.
The champion that you had knownitself in the way that it did on
(04:41):
And so for those who are newer,what Lewis, in that time of that
But I would even argue I wasn'twas in McLaren.
But I've watched old races andsomething different of what was
(05:03):
So new, new fans to the sportappreciation that you do.
Jo, of your experience ofcould have been.
And then I think for me, becauseI get so frustrated with
sometimes social media drama andpeople devaluing what he has
(05:24):
accomplished.
And like you, I thought, this isthis is the Lewis that everyone
needed to see that he hasn'tlost it and that it wasn't just
simply the car, as I've seenpeople try to argue and I just
go, you clearly don'tunderstand, and I'm not even a
racer, and you don't understandwhat it takes to have
accomplished what he didconsistently at that level when
(05:47):
the car was where he needed itto be.
So to see now two races.
I hear you being happy for himof winning, but you're not going
overboard of thinking this couldjust be a complete overhaul
change in Ferrari when throughthat.
What keeps you measured on that?
Why wouldn't you go that far?
Because in, uh, in qualifying,the, uh, the Mercedes was still
(06:13):
ahead, you know, and theMercedes is still a quick car, I
think.
I can't back it up with much,I mean, uh, George did have a
Um, there was, there was a, aand therefore he was struggling
Now he got overtaken by Kimi.
(06:35):
But to be, to be fair, I didn'tthink Kimi looked his normal
self.
Um he just didn't seem to be uh,I saw before the race he looked
you shouldn't be looking tiredYou know, it's, you know, these
All the rest of it.
(06:55):
Maybe he's doing too much.
Maybe, you know, maybe becauseHe's at MotoGP race.
He's at he's at I can't eventurned up, but he seems to be
And I don't know who's lookingsocial schedule, but I think it
Anyway, whatever.
(07:16):
The problem with these guys whenthey get tired is they also get
sick.
You know, it's just one of theAnd I know, I mean, I've
traveled to the Grand Prixcircus for years and years and
years.
And when you've done it, a lotimmune to it.
But if you're still new to it,easily because it's just
(07:40):
you don't sleep properly, youall these things that are not
Um, you need to take those intoAnd and Kimmy's, you know, he's
So quite often in the secondyoung drivers do get tired and
So I don't know, but there wasquite right about it.
(08:01):
And then, of course, you know,um, you know, it was too late.
And then, you know, the car blewSo, um, he ended up with
nothing, which was pretty unfairgiven what he'd done over the
weekend.
But that's the way it is.
It's the same with George inIt is slightly alarming that
(08:23):
happening as much as they are.
Uh, because it's not just thosea whole bunch of stuff too.
So, um, but we'll see.
I'm not sure.
I'm not sure.
It's a pivotal moment in worldhistory, you know, as some
people would make it out to be,um, inevitably, because you
know, everything, everything inFormula One, certainly in social
(08:45):
media is what happened fiveminutes ago and not not taking a
bigger picture.
So we'll see how it goes.
Um, it was also very hot, veryAnd, uh, Mercedes don't
traditionally work as well inhot weather.
You know, there's lots of, theretaken into account and we don't
(09:07):
didn't think it was a. The othermade much difference in the
Louis was very lucky.
On the virtual safety car.
He gained.
He gained a probably four orAnd that's important for track
Track position is often keybecause once you're behind
(09:29):
somebody, you're trying to getpast them is very difficult and
messes up the tyres and thingslike that.
But I think the virtual safetyI'm not sure he wouldn't have
won anyway, um, on his on hisstrategy, but it certainly
helped him.
Um, and but that's, you know,You know, sometimes the luck,
(09:52):
Yeah.
I do think that the virtualalready on a trajectory to win.
I think the virtual safety carprotection that he needed to
But going back to what you saidabout Mercedes, I'm hearing you
say that the reliability issue,because that's what I put down
(10:14):
in my notes and even said thaton the race notes is I think
that reliability may be MercedesAchilles heel.
Do you think that's overstatingOr we have enough data to start
leading us down that track ofthinking, but more needs to
happen.
Um, yes and no. I mean,obviously there have been a few
failures.
(10:34):
This is a new formula.
Therefore you expect some newAnd if there are reliability
The regulations allow forchanges to be made that if they
can, if they prove that it is aregulation so a reliability
issue, they can actually changeit.
So I don't think it's a majorThey probably the major problem
(10:56):
is probably figuring out whyit's happening.
Um, and it may be more than oneThat's the other thing, you
And, and so it's really the sameof any kind of, uh, new
championship is that you alwayshave failures because people are
learning.
And that's why, you know,sometimes it's great to, to, um,
(11:19):
uh, use the old machinerybecause everyone knows it, it
doesn't break down or itshouldn't do.
Um, and it's all quite closebecause everyone's developed as
much as they can figure out howto develop.
So, you know, changing thespreads the field out.
(11:40):
And it's also it's sort of antiI mean you have to do it
sometimes obviously to keep upwith technology.
Although you know the FIAback to V8 with some bizarre
than the future.
Um, which is weird, but thereUm, there are some things that
(12:04):
to be done.
The cars should be smaller.
Um, everything should becheaper, but there are other
ways of doing it and um, andyou've got to have some
relevance for the carmanufacturers.
You've got to give themAnd they're very important
money into the sport.
And um, I think it is, it isthe, the, the, the car
(12:31):
they don't like it.
You know, I think you have tothey're there and what the sport
Yeah.
And I think that's somethingwhen we make sure that we do not
overlook the fact that thisultimately is a business, and
those are the incentives to makesure that the money flows inside
the business.
(12:52):
Let me ask you this about theYou know, there are people who
it was unfolding, if there wouldhave been team orders.
I don't know that at this race.
I think that team orders wouldI think that if anything,
letting them both race allowedthem to kind of get this out of
(13:14):
their system that they neededthat.
And this is a early enough race,and there's enough time for the
team's overall goal of winningthe constructors that they could
recover if there was anythingbut like, both of them really
want to prove that they are theone that the team should get
behind.
And I guess what I want to knowis if you were advising
(13:35):
Mercedes, because I reallycouldn't come to a clean answer
on this.
If you were advising them, wouldplay out or would you have come
what we need to do?
Because there were some momentsgone out with that DNF, where
(13:55):
this end up where a loss ofhappen because of fighting?
Do you see where I'm kind ofwondering, thinking about
Mercedes has never had thispolicy, and rightly so, because
they're sporting.
They don't believe in supportingone driver or the other driver
(14:16):
because they believe that thedriver is sorted out and they've
had a problem before when LewisHamilton and Nico Rosberg were
colliding.
And I don't know if you heardthe stories that Nico Rosberg
was telling about him being notliterally fined for the damage,
or they basically got billed forany damage that they caused, and
Nico said he got bills likethree hundred and thirty
(14:38):
thousand dollars for collidingwith with Lewis one time,
because that's the damage itcaused.
Now, you know, he had a he had aAnd I think that's probably the
Yeah.
Um, because declaring that onedriver, you know, it's like when
Ferrari everything was forMichael Schumacher.
That's not very sporting.
(14:59):
It's also very boring, by theway, for, uh, spectators,
because you just know that ifthe Ferrari is the fastest car,
Michael Schumacher will winbecause the other guy won't be
allowed to.
And that's just it's not good.
It's not sporting and it's notI had this fight years and years
(15:21):
long before he was in Ferrari.
And that was his that was hisHe actually were on the
the middle of the Sahara desert.
And Jean tossed a coin to decideAnd I was there and I went
And I just said, you can't doThat's not sporting.
And he taking offense.
(15:42):
He said, yes, I can.
I'm in charge and my job is toget the best possible result for
Peugeot.
And I said, that's true, butbecause winning by unsporting
coin and then the guy has to hasAnd actually that did happen.
I'm trying to remember, I think,Ickx won the coin toss and Ari
(16:09):
for the victory.
Um, and on the last day aftera mile on the last stage and
waiting at the finishing lineknow, sort of drumming his
he's here somewhere.
I'm just waiting for him.
And you know, that's not good.
So and that was his way of doingAnd fair enough.
(16:31):
He was very successful, but Idon't think it's very good for
the sport.
But as you know, as Jean said,Um, now Toto and co have a
sport should be.
And I'm with them.
I don't I don't hate teamI always have done um just like
(16:53):
You know, it's just it's I and Ihate reverse grids and stuff
like that because it's just fakeand it's a gimmick and it's
crap.
Really.
Yeah.
I, I have to agree with you on,just said, let me ask you this
(17:15):
and it's obvious one driver isother one isn't challenging.
Like I'm not seeing the sameOscar and Lando last year.
That was, if anything, I wouldsay team orders are not good at
that point, especially if theconstructors has already been
determined and the team is goingto win.
(17:36):
Letting those guys race makeBut what if there is a major
Like for example, like with MaxThere's no question that the
accomplish and challenge.
Do you still hold to thatthinking that team orders isn't
necessary there, or is that therole of the second driver to
(17:59):
help?
If the guy can't do it, he can'tYou know, Sergio Perez was that
particular year was so farbehind all the time, it didn't
matter.
Therefore, team orders didn'the didn't step up.
And that's usually the case.
No, it's not that they you know,they, they they they can step
(18:19):
up.
They just can't.
If you have a really big gapwhen you have two guys who are
Um, and then you have then youAnd we've seen that in the past,
like Senna and Prost at McLarenin the eighties and, and PK and
Mansell at Williams in theeighties, the same kind of
(18:41):
thing.
They're very much the sameAnd then it gets or in those
Um and they played dirty, youto try and avoid.
You know, some people think,in Formula One or Formula one
dodgy around the edges.
(19:01):
Uh, if he has to be.
Um, I don't agree with that.
I think that there are classdirty, um, to win and, and I
people driving into one anotherbecause it's just, it's, it's
(19:21):
It undervalues the championshipUp. Um, and so I think it's just
And the fastest guy or theAnd, and that's really how it
Yeah.
Well, going back to what youprovision in there about
(19:45):
that's a clever way of a teamtheir actions and letting them,
decision making as a driver,calculations of is this risk
And to receive the benefit?
They're doing that literally asmaking decisions of overtakes.
(20:08):
But here they know if I do this,Do I want to take that risk?
And I think that that's it holdsto what you just so sagely said,
the sporting aspect of thesport.
This is what we as fans areWe do want to see the two
drivers on a team of the bestcar duking it out, but we do
(20:29):
want to see it happen cleanlyand fairly.
We will know intuitively ifthere's someone's putting either
the coin toss or a finger on thescale of directing where it
goes.
So I appreciate you kind ofI think you also have to look at
Toto Wolff is somebody who knowsbut he's a sportsman, too.
(20:55):
He knows.
He knows that the value of ofAnd, you know, he might be very,
very clever and he might do allkinds of things to make sure
that Mercedes get the bestpossible shot.
Um, you know, but, but when itcomes to the guys out on the
track, I think he's, he'sabsolutely fair.
(21:16):
And I'm sure after the race hewith, um With, I don't know,
Kimi, I don't know um, aboutI don't know if there were if,
it's possible that they say, youcan go much faster on the radio.
(21:41):
I can go faster than this.
He's holding him up.
Now, if there were team orders,um, applied, Toto would say if
he felt it was a valid argument,he would say to George, look,
Jimmy's faster.
Just let him go because thatNow, they didn't say that.
Now that's either because theydidn't think Kimi was faster or
(22:04):
they.
They knew that George had aSo um, I don't know.
But generally speaking, it's notAnd I think that's really
important and it's good for thesport.
Um I really think that you knowget on with it.
I understand the otherI don't like them.
(22:28):
And you're allowed to feel thatIf anything, it just shows the
difference in culture and ethosof a team, which is also
something interesting to analyseand see how that plays out on
the track and how that actuallyapplies into the business of the
sport itself.
So then moving on actually toanother team, McLaren, they did
have notably last year, thepapaya rules and all that, but I
(22:49):
don't want to actually go intothat.
I wrote in my notes that IMcLaren's race and like even
understand what their resultsAnd so I wanted to see if you
It just seemed they were notwhere I thought they would be
(23:09):
for Barcelona.
I expected more of them.
It just even though Lando gotwas a lot of other issues that
Now, Orlando, I think did aI think that he made the call of
either choosing to push andbattle.
He knew enough in that race towell to see where the front of
(23:37):
worked well for him to take thatBut ultimately, like when we
lot about the development of theAnd I wondered what your
comes to McLaren.
Well, my thought is, again, itabout Mercedes not performing as
(23:58):
McLaren was close at the end andnot in the races.
So Fernando was about, I thinkor something like that, which
And um, I think that that's anthere weren't many upgrades.
(24:21):
I mean, when you look throughthe whole field, there were
Ferrari had a bunch of upgrades,but most people just had circuit
specific upgrades.
Um, but Ferrari had a wholefloor and all the rest of it.
So you can understand how theyBut in terms of, uh, where
McLaren is in, in, in theirdevelopment process, they're
(24:45):
still behind Mercedes and yetthey got a lot closer than I
expected.
So that's why I think Mercedes,Mercedes underperformed is that
would expect it to be.
Okay.
Well that's interesting to hearthink that they were closer and
because that's not definitelyBut I don't discount what you're
(25:10):
So then going back to Ferrari,do you think that the win that
Lewis executed was on their pacealone?
Or do you think that they hadmore that they could have done
at Ferrari?
No, I think I think that wasUh, and Louis, you know, once,
once Louis has got the bitbetween his teeth and the wind
(25:30):
in his sails, uh, he is, he isformidable.
Um, but, you know, there's onlydon't think he was.
I don't think he was, uh, savingYeah.
I think, I think at the end whenhe pulled out a lead, I think he
was just pulling out the lead atthe end one because they were
(25:51):
fading away.
And two, just for the fun of it,just like Kimi did, uh, whenever
it was when he set the fastestlap on the last lap, you know,
he was trying to do that inMonaco as well, but it was in
Canada.
He did that and it's just likeThis is, you know, I'm under
I'm going to win this and I'mAnd I think that's probably a
(26:11):
little bit what Lewis was doingtoo.
And you know for Lewis, it's amassive, massive release more
than anything else, to behonest, because, you know, when
you have the amount ofcriticism.
He said it himself.
He said, you know, you hear theto, you hear the voices and you
(26:31):
to react to them.
You know, you doubt yourself, amAll these questions that other
you know, they have a right toUm, and it's tough because
sometimes you're just these guysthink to themselves, well, are
they right?
Are my critics.
Right?
(26:52):
Um, and if you don't listen toa bad idea as well.
Um, in my opinion anyway.
So no, I think what we saw was,I thought Lewis drove really
Uh, he did a great job and theYeah, I think all of the above.
(27:14):
I agree with you.
Um, if anything, I wrote aboutthat in my race notes.
Is that just the ability thatto achieve at least that one
which is to win in Ferrari Redlast year, I've watched and just
(27:37):
inspired me because I think allyou just said.
How much do you listen to othersand how much do you believe in
yourself?
And you have to have a level ofself-awareness and intellectual
honesty.
And that's got to be very hardon such a public level that he
has to operate, is that if yougo too far of ignoring
everything everybody says, youcan put yourself into a very bad
(27:59):
position of hubris andarrogance.
But then on the other side, whenyou are being attacked, where
people may think that they'resaying the right thing, but it's
not delivered in a way that it'swith goodwill.
It's very obvious to therecipient and they're going to
close off.
And that can make them becomespiral or again, bristle up.
(28:23):
And you could see that thatAnd I think that the timing of
car was where it needed to be,It was a track that he loves.
All of that came together, andthis can continue to hold on all
I think I think this issomething that people should be
(28:44):
aware of.
This will have raised Yeah.
Are those expectations going tobe because once you have high
expectations, you havedisappointment.
And it may be it may be that wethings that made the Ferrari
(29:04):
And it won't be happening theum, for example Austria.
She looked back over time.
Red bull has always beenUm, so maybe we'll just we'll
bull will be suddenly out ofYeah.
Because there is always thisIt's a good word.
(29:25):
That isn't it?
Um, the specificity of circuitswhere some cars go better than
others.
And, and you have to understandAnd there's, you know, it's to
do with the, the fundamentalunderlying fundamentals of a
chassis.
Some are good at one kind oftrack and some are good at
(29:46):
others.
And the skill is to get onethat's more or less good at all
of them.
Um, and that's really difficult.
And so I think we'll, it's aaway and start waving the flag.
And I thought, you know, Ium, silly saying we, you know,
Lewis might be challenges forYeah.
(30:08):
Right.
Um, I don't see that.
But, you know, this time lastyear we were going about how we
were going to win by a mile andhe didn't.
Right.
You know, just have to wait andAnd it's you know, I know it's
social media want to hear.
Like you just got to wait andYou know, there aren't any easy
(30:29):
But that's the truth of it.
There aren't any easy answersbecause things change every
minute.
Right.
And you know, right now as we'rebeavering away in all kinds of
and all kinds of stuff, tryingthat'll make the difference.
And, you know, that's, that'sIt's, it's formula one is a
(30:56):
Every element of it is moving.
It's like the most complicatedYou know, everything's moving in
Um, and then once everyand you get a result.
And, you know, sometimes thewhat's going on either.
You know, you've just got towhich is it's a great sport,
(31:19):
just enjoy it is the way I lookYeah, I do agree with you that
the design specificity, as yousaid of the circuit, it is often
undervalued, that that is one ofthe biggest challenges that the
team has to have of how generalbecause you don't want it so
(31:40):
general that it's notcompetitive.
But then yeah, they're going togoing to thrive and others where
And how do you do that inconjunction with everything
else?
That design philosophy actuallyleads me to actually talking
(32:00):
its history of doing well.
What do you think?
Did this race show us anyimprovement or any like, pull
back on the development side ofit?
It seemed like Max was expectingthis to be like a test of the
car, but did it give us theanswers to know where Red bull
is sitting?
Pretty much.
Yeah.
What did you draw away then?
(32:20):
When you say pretty much thesame, because Barcelona has
always been a track where thecar is judged more than the
drivers.
It's always been that way.
And if nobody makes anypodcast, you know, the grid is
(32:41):
quite the case this time becausemistakes down the grid.
But if you look at it, theit was there nonetheless.
Um, and, you know, you just seecompared to the other cars
element of a, of a car.
(33:02):
So, you know, if you'reparticularly good or bad or
whatever.
But that's always been the wayit's always that was that was I,
if you ask me why that's thecase, I couldn't possibly
explain it.
But I'm sure there are very But.
So what did you take away forNothing, really.
(33:23):
I thought it was a very, um,You know, they were there or
Um and it wasn't in nothingYeah.
Yeah.
I think I was surprised to seeI mean, I enjoyed Isaac's
(33:44):
performance, I thought hisdriving was not what I was
expecting.
That assertiveness that I keptseeing throughout the race was,
wow, okay.
That's great.
But overall, looking at the car,watching Max, I was really
surprised.
I thought that they would bewith the rest of the group.
(34:05):
Was that a surprise to you?
Did you draw those sameNo, I just I mean, the thing is
tracks have quirks.
There are things about themFor one, it doesn't work for
And I think we've said it on aWell, let's go and see what
happens in Barcelona becausethen you really find out where
(34:28):
things are.
And I think what we did was weAnd then the ultimate irony is,
duo question, um, you know,balancing everything out.
The FIA has concluded that thetherefore that becomes the um
(34:53):
else is judged.
So Red bull are not allowed anyAnd Mercedes is getting an
How the hell does that work?
I know the answer to this, butThat I can see the logic to it,
but it's just it it it'sillogical logic.
If you can have such a thing.
Well, yeah, I know we discussedthat I think during our last
(35:15):
race review, how they came tothis and why it in theory it
makes sense, but it doesn't makesense when you look at it in
actual practice and looking atit comprehensively.
Okay.
Well, so then what about theI know in the jsbmb you talked
I wondered if you wanted to talkabout Alpine's performance
(35:37):
itself, maybe even Pierre'sreinstatement in the Monaco
podium.
What are your thoughts about anyWell, um, the Monaco podium is
The stewards were given asituation where it was clearly
unfair that Pierre got thepenalty.
(35:58):
It was clearly unfair to threeor four others who had had the
same problem, but they servedtheir penalties.
And so to let to let Pierre getYes, that's fair on the one
But when you're being fair, onthe one hand, you're being
unfair on three or four otheraccounts.
(36:20):
Now, one, one might argue thatthe best thing to do would be to
do nothing and be unfair toeverybody.
Um, but which is, I think if Ia steward is really interesting.
I haven't been a steward, but Ium, uh, training courses for
(36:47):
and I went along to one of thosewhat they were learning.
Actually Laurent Marquez was,was it the FIA at that point and
running it.
And he invited me along.
Um just he said, you know, soit is to be a steward.
And I learned, I absolutelybe a steward because you are,
(37:10):
uh, what appear to be facts andAnd there's a lot of things you
And in this particular case, youto decide to be unfair or
But my view on that would be beAnd that's that's fairer.
(37:32):
So to give Pierre the place backBut I understand why they did
Now there's I mean that's allstill rolling on because now we
got a whole bunch of otherappeals going on, uh, from the
others who are saying, well,hang on a minute, this isn't
fair.
And it's quite right.
You know, it's not fair.
And it's a bad precedent too,because if you have a situation
(37:53):
where you let teams, um, ignorepenalties, uh, on the basis that
they can argue about itafterwards.
That's not good either.
So, um, you know, Pierre gothave to serve his penalty.
Um, because if you stop in a pitpenalty, you have to serve your
(38:14):
But you know, I just think thewhole thing, the whole thing was
a mess.
It shouldn't have been a mess.
The measurement shouldn't haveAnd while you can blame people
right, sure it's not right, butdecide how to fix the problem.
(38:35):
And I think it's better to beunfair to everybody, rather than
being unfair to only three ofthe four or four of the five,
whatever.
So that's a matter of styleAnd, you know, the the four
sat there and decided this.
Okay, so for me, I thought, whynot just I know it's a bit
(38:58):
controversial, but talking aboutbeing unfair, what if the race
result was just removed fromconsideration?
I mean, obviously it happened,race and I saw your face
You can't just say, well, thisrace didn't happen because it
did.
Um, and you can't just sort ofsay, well we'll annul it because
(39:22):
that's not fair to, to, to, toum Kimi who won the race in
Monaco.
Um, it's not fair to, to anybodyIt's also not good for, it's
So you've got to have a set ofrules that are that work
(39:44):
properly.
And if you get into situationslike this, you've got to be fair
about it.
And I think that by trying to befair, they ended up being
unfair.
Right.
I guess what I'm saying is go tothe extreme of it's not fair to
anybody.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like I think of it because itso many things tangled up with
(40:09):
out one is definitely unfair.
I guess I also wonder who shouldthe blame of this and have egg
their responsibility, I think isWho is putting on the race and
so that all of us who areand supporting this should have
(40:37):
aspect of this has been actuallySo that way we can have the
trust in the results and thatthe underlying things that the
stewards are making thedecisions on are also properly
there.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Like if you're going to do itcontroversial in a way that is
But I hear you.
(40:58):
If my thoughts are too extreme,I think the fact of the matter
is that it was the mistake madeby a subcontractor to the FIA,
which is Formula One management,and they only do the they do the
timekeeping because they havethis electronic ring around the
circuit which monitorseverything for the TV, the
(41:18):
sound, everything.
Um, and it's just more logicaland more practical for them to
do it.
Now they should do that properlyBut also, let's face it, the FIA
they don't make mistakes.
So who is the blame.
I think I mean you're the lawyerlaw, uh, the subcontractor would
(41:40):
Unless, uh, I think if Isomething like, unless the the
whole thing knew about it.
And, and therefore, um, I don'tknow if that was the case or
not.
I doubt it.
Um, because if you knew about ityou know, the fact is that that
(42:08):
the other or both.
And it honestly doesn't matterand everybody is impacted by it.
So the best thing to do is say,management said, you know, we
Um, great.
Yeah.
Shouldn't happen the first time.
But it did.
You know, it just makes thewhole sport look rather amateur
(42:30):
I think.
And and that's not good.
Um but it's, you know, it's theYou can argue the same thing
about the track coming up inMonaco.
That shouldn't have happenedAnd you know who's responsible
Well, there's the AutomobileClub of Monaco as the Government
of Monaco.
There's some contractor who mixtarmac up, the bitumen, you
(42:53):
different words, all meaning theum, but, you know, at the end of
be responsible for it.
And if in that particular case,And my view on that is that the
So, um, you know, that's whatThey are the regulatory body.
(43:16):
So yes, somebody else probablyBut they should have done.
And so we have kind of twosimilar at the same time.
But I still think at the end ofthe day, when you look at what
happened, I think it would havebeen fairer to just to say it's
unfair for everybody and not togive.
(43:37):
Pierre.
The other thing is Pierreothers hadn't been penalized.
That's the other key point.
You know, he made a big.
I mean, he did a great job.
He should get an Oscar for thatYou know, about how he was
And you know, this was his hestruggled and fought for the
podium.
He blah de blah de blah.
Um.
Yeah.
Right.
Uh, you know, he was lucky to beAnd so and that's what they do.
(44:01):
You know, the drivers play theYou hear George is good at that
He's the he's the guy who'sstewards on the radio saying
He did that wrong.
In England, we would say he's acall him a snitch, wouldn't you?
But, you know, but it's justand and they all do it, you
(44:24):
to their engineer knowing thatlistening into the conversation.
And, you know, if they haven'tspotted something um that they
will.
Ah, okay.
Yeah.
And it's, you know, it's likelying on the ground.
Yeah.
So injured for ten minutes, youup and running around.
No problem.
You know, just in there tryingSo, um, it's all a bit silly
(44:53):
what the stewards decided.
I just think it would have beenYeah.
I don't disagree with reallyIf anything, I'm just maybe
But I think that I am justof this, the track aspect of it
(45:16):
keeping, I do think going backcontractor or subcontractor, the
had already talked to the teamsSo that to me makes me believe
that there is enough there thatyou should have had more
oversight.
I would love to see the evidenceI have certain suspicions that I
(45:37):
think that it's not in right nowin anyone's best interest to
talk about it too much more thanwhat's already being there,
because it's all being stillappealed.
And, you know, like untilthis, but it is what it is.
And like you said, I don't thinkI think especially for it
(46:00):
where the I feel like outside ofthe world pays really attention
It just doesn't look good and IAs a fan.
Going back to Alonso and Alonsolooked like a broken man going
into the weekend, and it was anappalling weekend for Aston
Martin.
It was a shocker.
(46:21):
Absolutely.
Everything was horrible.
Um, I think I mean the rumorsto alpine and I that makes
I think he will.
And I think they'll give him a,and he'll pay him a load of
(46:42):
ambassador for Gucci.
And, uh, everyone will be happybecause he'll be back with the
same gang he's worked withbefore, so.
And he's right.
He's been to Enstone like threehis career is longer than War
So, um, it's got more chaptersUm, and, and, uh, so I think
(47:06):
ending your career on a high aswhich no Aston Martin might get
thing holds together.
Um, but I just think it's aYou know, he's forty five in the
No. And he said it himself.
(47:27):
I'm not really you know, Iprobably won't be back at
Barcelona again.
Um because I Barcelona misses abecause it's an alternation of
So I think I can see thatAnd he'll be very good.
Um you know, he's still good.
(47:48):
We don't know how good because,Aston Martin, uh, at that time
have, might have done moreYou know, it's like when, uh,
and when Alonso got in the car,Vettel had been because Vettel
just sort of drifted off intoBut I think that's you know I
(48:12):
So and I think it's probably aSo then what about Franco in
I know that we thoughtthere seemed to be a resurge.
And then I wondered when we sawgive way to Pierre.
(48:33):
It just made me kind of wonderIs that literally years doing
Um, or do you think some of thisI think I think that Franco I
Williams he looked very good forAnd then he started crashing
(48:58):
not Jack Doohan.
They um.
Oh dear me.
Uh, the American he replaced.
I'm sorry.
My brain is gone.
Oh.
Logan.
Sargeant.
Logan Sargeant.
Yes.
Uh, okay.
Um, he just started doing thesame things that Logan had been
doing, which was crashing, butfor a few races, he looked very
good.
And then, you know, alpine paida lot of money to get him out of
(49:20):
a Williams contract and put himin.
And I think he's been I'm notbecause he hasn't.
He's been okay.
But okay is not enough inYou've got to be better than
And I think that there's anPressure on him, which probably
(49:42):
But, you know, he seems to haveBut I'm not sure he's got the
that make a star.
And he's had a lot of time nowYou know, even if you're in a
bad car, you can still do thingsthat people go, oh, that's
interesting.
You know, that's, you know, it'scar, you see them at their best.
(50:04):
I've always found.
And sometimes you don't noticebecause they're obviously not on
camera.
They're not in the focus.
But sometimes people do thingsthat was impressive.
Um, and I think there's been alittle bit lacking in wow
factor.
Now that may upset Franco's, uh,vocal in their support of him.
(50:30):
But, you know, that is if youlook at the reality of the
situation, um, you can see howand let's face it, you know,
Flavio Briatore doesn't give atoss about what the fans think
about anything.
You know, he, he just wants toget, um, the best things
together that he can gettogether.
(50:51):
You know, it's not always theSometimes it's making more money
But um, you know, that is, uh,at the moment he needs to have a
really good team, um, more thanhaving the money because, you
know, obviously the rival ofGucci is going to be a, uh, a
big financial bonus for theteam.
(51:13):
And, you know, uh, Fernando is aformer world champion,
admittedly a thousand years ago,but he was a double world
champion.
And Pierre Gasly is not a doubleHe's won one race.
You know Franco has won nothing.
So from a just on a on on paper,having Fernando Alonso, who is a
(51:33):
long established star in Formulaone in your team is a good
thing.
And if he's still delivering allgood a job, if Franco is Franco
he's still more value because hethe bag with him.
(51:55):
It's a bit like the bit like theargument about if your drivers
are the same speed as oneanother, the one who speaks four
languages is more valuable thanthe one who doesn't speak four
languages.
You know, it's that kind ofNow, obviously Briatore thinks
that, or we'll see if itactually happens.
(52:16):
But I would imagine that, uh,that reason, because it's not
Franco probably might be better.
And there's a lot more bonuses.
Yeah.
Well, as you were talking, itAlpine, when you look at the
(52:40):
performance, but you think aboutside of it.
Both, um, Mercedes and Alpinehave more similarities in my
mind at the moment in the sensethat you have Kimi and you have
Franco who came in in the sameclass, essentially into the into
the grid.
And then you have Pierre andGeorge, who are also essentially
(53:01):
peers, and then you have Lewisand Fernando who are essentially
peers.
They all kind of thoseAnd if if the analysis were the
same, Kimi, if Kimi wasn't doingas great as he was and the
opportunity to bring back Lewispresented itself.
I think Mercedes assuming likelooking at the paper, you could
(53:28):
did about the value of bringingchampion, two year team, as he
If you've got someone who isprobably the parallel breaks,
multi-race winner versus Pierre.
But the talent and the abilityto to stay on the grid as long
(53:49):
as either one of them have issimilar.
And so I think unfortunately forwhatever they have said as
So here's the option for thebusiness to bring in the multi
year champion.
And you're you're not able tohold up against that because
(54:10):
you're not delivering on thepotential that they had expected
for you.
I don't think that, uh, if youlook at what alpine did to, uh,
Jack Doohan, that wasn't fairbecause Jack was never given a
proper chance to show what wedo.
But I think Franco's had enoughHe has.
(54:32):
They've been very fair with him.
I think that, uh.
Williams.
I mean, the Williams were fairI mean, they gave him the drive
moved on from him.
But, you know, they they soldwanted it and, um, and got a lot
(54:53):
So, um, you know, I thinkI just think, you know, you've
got to formula one is aboutdelivering.
And if you don't deliver enough,think you've delivered enough,
people in the business makingI mean, believe me, Formula One
would love to have FrancoColapinto and a grand prix in
(55:17):
Argentina.
It would be fantastic.
Uh, another race in SouthNow, there's all kinds of
reasons why that might nothappen.
And certainly without Franco,for that to happen.
But these kind of decisionsnowadays that doesn't decide,
you know, we wanted a Chinesedriver.
(55:39):
Guanyu Zhou had a lot of, uh,He was able to do a certain
amount, but that didn't affectthe race.
You know it it probably broughtMaybe usually that's what
Um, but you know, that's Chinahas been on, uh, the formula one
calendar for twenty odd yearsnow.
It's hard to imagine, but thatUm, so, but Argentina, it's been
(56:05):
I did go to some Argentine GrandI can't remember which years
I guess it was in the nineties.
Um, and they were great.
They were, they were, they were,uh, I mean the track was, um,
out of date and all the rest ofit.
But they were they were goodevents and they were very
popular.
But again, if you can't pay forbe a race?
(56:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, so I'm looking at thetime, so I want to make sure we
don't overlook the rest of thegrid.
I wonder what your thoughts areWilliams their days because of
of the field.
I feel like it wasn't so obviouswhat the day looked like for
those teams.
(56:50):
What are your takeaways of anyRacing Bulls did a great job.
Um, and Haas, I mean, you've gotwith all the, the, uh, the
points up for grabs that aren'tbecause Charles wasn't there.
(57:11):
And in the end, Kimi wasn'tSo there were points there that
um, were to be grabbed now, butRacing Bulls did did a very good
job all weekend and that car isobviously good and they are
improving it.
They've got some very goodTheir house is smaller.
Um and you know it strugglesAnd uh, Williams Williams, uh,
(57:43):
from the very beginning of thetheir car to be very good there.
And it wasn't.
So, you know, if your car's nogood, there's a lot of things
that still need to be done tothe Williams.
You know, there's still weightUm, I think also that's part of
with the Red bull too, I thinkoverweight as well.
(58:05):
But you know, that's, that'ssnapshot of where you are on a
And I think what we saw isUm, how completely useless Aston
from the pace Cadillac was.
(58:26):
And the rest of it is just, youknow, boom, boom, boom, boom
boom.
And what did you think aboutAudi and Nico's unfortunate
incident of the rock hitting thekill switch?
Well, it's it's certainlyUm, but they weren't really, uh,
(58:50):
But, you know, that's kind ofwhere they're at as well, you
know.
So I don't think we actuallyIt just, it just sort of
more than anything.
And, um, and now we just gosee, you know, how things play
(59:12):
also from upgrade to upgrade,whereby new stuff comes.
You know, Aston Martin areIt sounds like almost a new car,
Um, I don't know if they'll makeit for the summer break or not
before, but, you know, and maybewe'll see them suddenly being in
(59:36):
the midfield where they shouldbe.
Um, but I don't know if that'sWe'll see.
They certainly aren't wastingThey clearly putting everything
So a B version of the car,whether the B version of the car
has the same chassis, I don'tknow.
But we'll see.
(59:59):
So if you're a new fan andyou're watching this Grand Prix,
what would you say is the thingthat they should understand from
watching the race or the keytakeaway that they should have
had?
I think the thing, if you arecompletely new for that, um, is
the my favorite word again,specificity of a track two
(01:00:23):
different cars.
You know, some people don't knowbeginner, um, racing is track
better on one circuit than itSimple.
And added to that, you alsoit's so true nowadays, but it is
(01:00:49):
drivers like some tracks moredon't like some tracks, so they
ones they like.
And uh, so there are, you know,there's all kinds of elements to
it that as a, as a, you know,it's not, it's not just the same
every week.
It might have looked like it foractually it wasn't.
(01:01:12):
If you look at it closely, thereso happened that Mercedes won
Now Ferrari has won one.
Now, the thing I'd say is, don'tbeginning of a new regime,
I might be wrong, you know.
And that's the other thing aboutit is that you can you can
(01:01:34):
listen to the voices, theobservers, and they can say,
this is the Ferrarisrenaissance, and they might be
right.
It might be wrong, it might beBut at the end of the day,
get there and do it, you know?
And that, I think, is somethingthat we can all learn from
really, which is, you know, justjust to take it and enjoy it for
(01:01:58):
what it is and we can analyse itlater.
Um, but can we predict theNo we can't.
Yeah, yeah.
I agree with a lot of what youIf anything, I love the idea of
If you start to look into thedetails, you can see that it's
not literally the same thinghappening over.
(01:02:19):
It's like opening up the hoodmuch more complexity that has
even if the ultimate resultthere can be some signs of what
But we also know that there aretoo many variables that happen
at any given race that you can'ttruly forecast.
(01:02:42):
It's like weather forecasting.
They have a lot of good datais likely to happen.
But if you ever took a weatherand said, this is what I'm like,
you're, you're being a littleliterally predict the future.
I think for me, if I weretalking to a new fan, which I
(01:03:04):
know many of our listeners are,is that I think that Barcelona
is a driver's circuit and astrategy circuit.
And this year showed that if youthe cars look a little bit
ahead, I think that that was athe teams, because I think they
(01:03:26):
from this specific track.
And that's part of the reasonAs you noted, Jo, a great place
to size up where everybody isthat snapshot and that the
drivers, I think, seem to likeit.
It's it seemed like they wereAnd so that puts them into a
(01:03:49):
what it needs to do.
It's like a level of confidence,because they've been there, and
measure themselves, and thatheadspace to then think
the box, to use experience orfigure out where are the gaps.
And so that's why I think Ialways look forward to this
(01:04:10):
race.
I am disappointed that it'sgoing to be alternated, but you
know, it is what it is andthat's what the calendar will
be.
And hopefully there'll be othertype of activity.
Just one thought, and that is itprobably isn't immediately
obvious, but Barcelona isactually more predictable race
(01:04:32):
than any other, includingMonaco.
If you look back in historymore, I think it's only three
drivers in thirty six years whoweren't on the front row, who
won.
It's always the front runner.
That's way more than Monaco.
Monaco.
You know, the percentage of polethan any other circuit.
(01:04:54):
Why?
That's a good question, but it'sIt's a it's a circuit that
values the car more than thedriver.
Yeah, Monaco actually values theSo that's an extraordinary
But it also means you can havesome very dull races at
Barcelona too.
(01:05:16):
Um yeah.
Because things don't changeThere you are.
Yeah.
Oh I love that data pointthe reasons I do like Barcelona,
favour the car.
And because of that, the valuelittle bit more.
The strategy, the setup, how arewith the driver?
(01:05:40):
Like it's like that's theplatform for the driver then to
truly shine or be called out insome ways, like if they can or
cannot produce the results thatare needed if the car is in a
good place.
And I love how that when youtalk about that in comparison to
Monaco and for them to have ithappen consecutively, that also
is a really cool way to see isthe driver's talent matched up
(01:06:04):
with where a car and vice versa,is a car matched up with the
driver's talent.
So I'm really glad you pulledSo next up is Austria.
Anything you're looking forwardI think additionally, Max and
Red bull have done very wellthere.
And, uh, I mean, it's a, it's aIt's, uh, it's simple.
(01:06:26):
It's always, it's always goodAnd, uh, it'll be really
You know, I can see Red bullthan they have been in recent
So this is this is why I loveFormula one, because it is
unpredictable.
Even when it's beingSo yes, it may not be obvious,
(01:06:52):
but if you look, if you digbeneath, beneath the surface
just a little bit, you find outthat actually everyone is
different and everyone isinteresting.
And I never, ever, ever get Yes.
Um, because I'm always lookingat all the different things
going on.
I do a thing called a lap chart.
(01:07:13):
I don't know if you'velap charts are where you write
come by every lap.
And that way you followAnd at the end of the race, you
know exactly what happened toeverybody.
You don't know all the reasonsI'm just trying to look and see
(01:07:33):
don't at the moment.
Um, I have one that's not filledit's a grid and you just write
But, but there's all kinds oflittle annotations that tell
you.
And so I'm always fascinated bySo the more you get into it, the
(01:07:53):
That's I think I wholeheartedlyagree, and that's one of the
many reasons I enjoy not onlythe Jsbmb, but your insights and
your willingness to have theseconversations, because I feel
like a kindred ness with you onthat, that I enjoy getting down
into the gritty details andthinking through what are the
(01:08:13):
threads that might not beobvious.
It's just a wonderful sport.
And if anything, Joe, I lookforward to our next
conversation.
Okay, friends, what did youDrop me a line via email.
Sabrina at Two Guys, a girl andCan you help us out?
If you haven't already, pleasetake a moment to follow us and
(01:08:36):
give us five stars on yourfavorite podcast app, as well as
share this episode with other F1fans.
We know our growth is because ofyou and the guys and I thank
you.
And with that, let me say we'lllistening in because we're just
John, Dick and me.
Sabrina, thanks for listening.
Hey friends, thanks for takingtime to listen in on a
conversation.
Joe Sayward and I had about thetwenty twenty six Barcelona
Grand Prix.
Dick hadn't missed this one, soLewis Hamilton won in red, his
lot of people had stoppedAfter a year of being told it
(00:25):
As you'll hear, I could not helpJoe, who has spent more time in
the paddock than almost anyone,spent the conversation gently
refusing to call it a turningpoint.
Whether Barcelona was the startof something for Hamilton and
Ferrari, or a perfect afternoon,the standings will quietly
correct may depend on who youask.
Before we get to ourask can you help us out?
(00:48):
If this show adds value to yourF1 experience, please take a
moment to follow us and give usfive stars on your favorite
podcast app.
Share this episode with other F1That's how people find us and
it's how we keep growing thiscommunity.
Hope you enjoy our conversation.
Okay.
Well, Joe, it is the days afterthe Barcelona Grand Prix and it
(01:11):
looks like it's you and metoday.
Dick has had to unavoidably missI know that that's not easy for
him, but we'll just have to keepgoing on.
Oh, absolutely.
I mean, it's it's unfortunate,of dealing with it on our own.
So, um, it was quite anObviously everyone's very
(01:37):
Um, and, uh, you know, it's a,Whenever there's a change,
And it's Lewis's first win atI mean, there were lots of
He's the first British driver towin at Ferrari since Mansell I
think.
And the podium was the first.
This is an extraordinaryThe podium was the first all
(02:00):
nineteen sixty eight.
And I thought, that's reallyweird because I'm sure I was at
one or two with with fullBritish podiums in the past, but
obviously not.
I must have just dreamed thatYeah, I was really impressed by
Yeah.
In the in the era of Schumacher,I suppose there were lots of
Brits, but Schumacher was alwaysthere or thereabouts, and I
(02:22):
think he probably spoiled it afew times.
But I thought, you know, withDamon Hill and with, with David
Coulthard and Johnny Herbertand, and all these guys, I
thought, I'm sure there was onesomewhere, but I couldn't find
one.
So, um, obviously there wasn't.
I just, I just imagined it.
So was that your race highlightthe fact that this was an
(02:44):
all-British podium.
Uh, what was my race highlight?
Um, I really have to say it'sback and winning in a Ferrari.
It's his first win in aYou know, what it does is it
this Lewis Hamilton guy, he'sHe can do it in other teams as
(03:08):
Very important point.
Not that anyone really doubtedI think the question was for
to be fair.
Um is he is he has he still gotIs he not too old?
And you know, for a while lastyear when Charles was beating
him, it was like, oh, come on,Lewis, you know, this isn't
(03:29):
great.
But he seems to have got it allHe's much happier now.
Um, he's in a happy place andfor the sport because you know,
figure and you know, Ferrari winEven if you even if you're not a
(03:49):
always good because there are soSo it's important.
It would be nice if they couldnot get carried away.
I think, yeah, for me it wasIf anything as I processed the
was a master class on so manytechnique, but it's also the
(04:14):
You could just see.
After Qualy, he was buzzing andjust his normal demeanour that
at least for me, I wonder whatAnd then to see how it unfolded.
The champion that you had knownitself in the way that it did on
(04:41):
And so for those who are newer,what Lewis, in that time of that
But I would even argue I wasn'twas in McLaren.
But I've watched old races andsomething different of what was
(05:03):
So new, new fans to the sportappreciation that you do.
Jo, of your experience ofcould have been.
And then I think for me, becauseI get so frustrated with
sometimes social media drama andpeople devaluing what he has
(05:24):
accomplished.
And like you, I thought, this isthis is the Lewis that everyone
needed to see that he hasn'tlost it and that it wasn't just
simply the car, as I've seenpeople try to argue and I just
go, you clearly don'tunderstand, and I'm not even a
racer, and you don't understandwhat it takes to have
accomplished what he didconsistently at that level when
(05:47):
the car was where he needed itto be.
So to see now two races.
I hear you being happy for himof winning, but you're not going
overboard of thinking this couldjust be a complete overhaul
change in Ferrari when throughthat.
What keeps you measured on that?
Why wouldn't you go that far?
Because in, uh, in qualifying,the, uh, the Mercedes was still
(06:13):
ahead, you know, and theMercedes is still a quick car, I
think.
I can't back it up with much,I mean, uh, George did have a
Um, there was, there was a, aand therefore he was struggling
Now he got overtaken by Kimi.
(06:35):
But to be, to be fair, I didn'tthink Kimi looked his normal
self.
Um he just didn't seem to be uh,I saw before the race he looked
you shouldn't be looking tiredYou know, it's, you know, these
All the rest of it.
(06:55):
Maybe he's doing too much.
Maybe, you know, maybe becauseHe's at MotoGP race.
He's at he's at I can't eventurned up, but he seems to be
And I don't know who's lookingsocial schedule, but I think it
Anyway, whatever.
(07:16):
The problem with these guys whenthey get tired is they also get
sick.
You know, it's just one of theAnd I know, I mean, I've
traveled to the Grand Prixcircus for years and years and
years.
And when you've done it, a lotimmune to it.
But if you're still new to it,easily because it's just
(07:40):
you don't sleep properly, youall these things that are not
Um, you need to take those intoAnd and Kimmy's, you know, he's
So quite often in the secondyoung drivers do get tired and
So I don't know, but there wasquite right about it.
(08:01):
And then, of course, you know,um, you know, it was too late.
And then, you know, the car blewSo, um, he ended up with
nothing, which was pretty unfairgiven what he'd done over the
weekend.
But that's the way it is.
It's the same with George inIt is slightly alarming that
(08:23):
happening as much as they are.
Uh, because it's not just thosea whole bunch of stuff too.
So, um, but we'll see.
I'm not sure.
I'm not sure.
It's a pivotal moment in worldhistory, you know, as some
people would make it out to be,um, inevitably, because you
know, everything, everything inFormula One, certainly in social
(08:45):
media is what happened fiveminutes ago and not not taking a
bigger picture.
So we'll see how it goes.
Um, it was also very hot, veryAnd, uh, Mercedes don't
traditionally work as well inhot weather.
You know, there's lots of, theretaken into account and we don't
(09:07):
didn't think it was a. The othermade much difference in the
Louis was very lucky.
On the virtual safety car.
He gained.
He gained a probably four orAnd that's important for track
Track position is often keybecause once you're behind
(09:29):
somebody, you're trying to getpast them is very difficult and
messes up the tyres and thingslike that.
But I think the virtual safetyI'm not sure he wouldn't have
won anyway, um, on his on hisstrategy, but it certainly
helped him.
Um, and but that's, you know,You know, sometimes the luck,
(09:52):
Yeah.
I do think that the virtualalready on a trajectory to win.
I think the virtual safety carprotection that he needed to
But going back to what you saidabout Mercedes, I'm hearing you
say that the reliability issue,because that's what I put down
(10:14):
in my notes and even said thaton the race notes is I think
that reliability may be MercedesAchilles heel.
Do you think that's overstatingOr we have enough data to start
leading us down that track ofthinking, but more needs to
happen.
Um, yes and no. I mean,obviously there have been a few
failures.
(10:34):
This is a new formula.
Therefore you expect some newAnd if there are reliability
The regulations allow forchanges to be made that if they
can, if they prove that it is aregulation so a reliability
issue, they can actually changeit.
So I don't think it's a majorThey probably the major problem
(10:56):
is probably figuring out whyit's happening.
Um, and it may be more than oneThat's the other thing, you
And, and so it's really the sameof any kind of, uh, new
championship is that you alwayshave failures because people are
learning.
And that's why, you know,sometimes it's great to, to, um,
(11:19):
uh, use the old machinerybecause everyone knows it, it
doesn't break down or itshouldn't do.
Um, and it's all quite closebecause everyone's developed as
much as they can figure out howto develop.
So, you know, changing thespreads the field out.
(11:40):
And it's also it's sort of antiI mean you have to do it
sometimes obviously to keep upwith technology.
Although you know the FIAback to V8 with some bizarre
than the future.
Um, which is weird, but thereUm, there are some things that
(12:04):
to be done.
The cars should be smaller.
Um, everything should becheaper, but there are other
ways of doing it and um, andyou've got to have some
relevance for the carmanufacturers.
You've got to give themAnd they're very important
money into the sport.
And um, I think it is, it isthe, the, the, the car
(12:31):
they don't like it.
You know, I think you have tothey're there and what the sport
Yeah.
And I think that's somethingwhen we make sure that we do not
overlook the fact that thisultimately is a business, and
those are the incentives to makesure that the money flows inside
the business.
(12:52):
Let me ask you this about theYou know, there are people who
it was unfolding, if there wouldhave been team orders.
I don't know that at this race.
I think that team orders wouldI think that if anything,
letting them both race allowedthem to kind of get this out of
(13:14):
their system that they neededthat.
And this is a early enough race,and there's enough time for the
team's overall goal of winningthe constructors that they could
recover if there was anythingbut like, both of them really
want to prove that they are theone that the team should get
behind.
And I guess what I want to knowis if you were advising
(13:35):
Mercedes, because I reallycouldn't come to a clean answer
on this.
If you were advising them, wouldplay out or would you have come
what we need to do?
Because there were some momentsgone out with that DNF, where
(13:55):
this end up where a loss ofhappen because of fighting?
Do you see where I'm kind ofwondering, thinking about
Mercedes has never had thispolicy, and rightly so, because
they're sporting.
They don't believe in supportingone driver or the other driver
(14:16):
because they believe that thedriver is sorted out and they've
had a problem before when LewisHamilton and Nico Rosberg were
colliding.
And I don't know if you heardthe stories that Nico Rosberg
was telling about him being notliterally fined for the damage,
or they basically got billed forany damage that they caused, and
Nico said he got bills likethree hundred and thirty
(14:38):
thousand dollars for collidingwith with Lewis one time,
because that's the damage itcaused.
Now, you know, he had a he had aAnd I think that's probably the
Yeah.
Um, because declaring that onedriver, you know, it's like when
Ferrari everything was forMichael Schumacher.
That's not very sporting.
(14:59):
It's also very boring, by theway, for, uh, spectators,
because you just know that ifthe Ferrari is the fastest car,
Michael Schumacher will winbecause the other guy won't be
allowed to.
And that's just it's not good.
It's not sporting and it's notI had this fight years and years
(15:21):
long before he was in Ferrari.
And that was his that was hisHe actually were on the
the middle of the Sahara desert.
And Jean tossed a coin to decideAnd I was there and I went
And I just said, you can't doThat's not sporting.
And he taking offense.
(15:42):
He said, yes, I can.
I'm in charge and my job is toget the best possible result for
Peugeot.
And I said, that's true, butbecause winning by unsporting
coin and then the guy has to hasAnd actually that did happen.
I'm trying to remember, I think,Ickx won the coin toss and Ari
(16:09):
for the victory.
Um, and on the last day aftera mile on the last stage and
waiting at the finishing lineknow, sort of drumming his
he's here somewhere.
I'm just waiting for him.
And you know, that's not good.
So and that was his way of doingAnd fair enough.
(16:31):
He was very successful, but Idon't think it's very good for
the sport.
But as you know, as Jean said,Um, now Toto and co have a
sport should be.
And I'm with them.
I don't I don't hate teamI always have done um just like
(16:53):
You know, it's just it's I and Ihate reverse grids and stuff
like that because it's just fakeand it's a gimmick and it's
crap.
Really.
Yeah.
I, I have to agree with you on,just said, let me ask you this
(17:15):
and it's obvious one driver isother one isn't challenging.
Like I'm not seeing the sameOscar and Lando last year.
That was, if anything, I wouldsay team orders are not good at
that point, especially if theconstructors has already been
determined and the team is goingto win.
(17:36):
Letting those guys race makeBut what if there is a major
Like for example, like with MaxThere's no question that the
accomplish and challenge.
Do you still hold to thatthinking that team orders isn't
necessary there, or is that therole of the second driver to
(17:59):
help?
If the guy can't do it, he can'tYou know, Sergio Perez was that
particular year was so farbehind all the time, it didn't
matter.
Therefore, team orders didn'the didn't step up.
And that's usually the case.
No, it's not that they you know,they, they they they can step
(18:19):
up.
They just can't.
If you have a really big gapwhen you have two guys who are
Um, and then you have then youAnd we've seen that in the past,
like Senna and Prost at McLarenin the eighties and, and PK and
Mansell at Williams in theeighties, the same kind of
(18:41):
thing.
They're very much the sameAnd then it gets or in those
Um and they played dirty, youto try and avoid.
You know, some people think,in Formula One or Formula one
dodgy around the edges.
(19:01):
Uh, if he has to be.
Um, I don't agree with that.
I think that there are classdirty, um, to win and, and I
people driving into one anotherbecause it's just, it's, it's
(19:21):
It undervalues the championshipUp. Um, and so I think it's just
And the fastest guy or theAnd, and that's really how it
Yeah.
Well, going back to what youprovision in there about
(19:45):
that's a clever way of a teamtheir actions and letting them,
decision making as a driver,calculations of is this risk
And to receive the benefit?
They're doing that literally asmaking decisions of overtakes.
(20:08):
But here they know if I do this,Do I want to take that risk?
And I think that that's it holdsto what you just so sagely said,
the sporting aspect of thesport.
This is what we as fans areWe do want to see the two
drivers on a team of the bestcar duking it out, but we do
(20:29):
want to see it happen cleanlyand fairly.
We will know intuitively ifthere's someone's putting either
the coin toss or a finger on thescale of directing where it
goes.
So I appreciate you kind ofI think you also have to look at
Toto Wolff is somebody who knowsbut he's a sportsman, too.
(20:55):
He knows.
He knows that the value of ofAnd, you know, he might be very,
very clever and he might do allkinds of things to make sure
that Mercedes get the bestpossible shot.
Um, you know, but, but when itcomes to the guys out on the
track, I think he's, he'sabsolutely fair.
(21:16):
And I'm sure after the race hewith, um With, I don't know,
Kimi, I don't know um, aboutI don't know if there were if,
it's possible that they say, youcan go much faster on the radio.
(21:41):
I can go faster than this.
He's holding him up.
Now, if there were team orders,um, applied, Toto would say if
he felt it was a valid argument,he would say to George, look,
Jimmy's faster.
Just let him go because thatNow, they didn't say that.
Now that's either because theydidn't think Kimi was faster or
(22:04):
they.
They knew that George had aSo um, I don't know.
But generally speaking, it's notAnd I think that's really
important and it's good for thesport.
Um I really think that you knowget on with it.
I understand the otherI don't like them.
(22:28):
And you're allowed to feel thatIf anything, it just shows the
difference in culture and ethosof a team, which is also
something interesting to analyseand see how that plays out on
the track and how that actuallyapplies into the business of the
sport itself.
So then moving on actually toanother team, McLaren, they did
have notably last year, thepapaya rules and all that, but I
(22:49):
don't want to actually go intothat.
I wrote in my notes that IMcLaren's race and like even
understand what their resultsAnd so I wanted to see if you
It just seemed they were notwhere I thought they would be
(23:09):
for Barcelona.
I expected more of them.
It just even though Lando gotwas a lot of other issues that
Now, Orlando, I think did aI think that he made the call of
either choosing to push andbattle.
He knew enough in that race towell to see where the front of
(23:37):
worked well for him to take thatBut ultimately, like when we
lot about the development of theAnd I wondered what your
comes to McLaren.
Well, my thought is, again, itabout Mercedes not performing as
(23:58):
McLaren was close at the end andnot in the races.
So Fernando was about, I thinkor something like that, which
And um, I think that that's anthere weren't many upgrades.
(24:21):
I mean, when you look throughthe whole field, there were
Ferrari had a bunch of upgrades,but most people just had circuit
specific upgrades.
Um, but Ferrari had a wholefloor and all the rest of it.
So you can understand how theyBut in terms of, uh, where
McLaren is in, in, in theirdevelopment process, they're
(24:45):
still behind Mercedes and yetthey got a lot closer than I
expected.
So that's why I think Mercedes,Mercedes underperformed is that
would expect it to be.
Okay.
Well that's interesting to hearthink that they were closer and
because that's not definitelyBut I don't discount what you're
(25:10):
So then going back to Ferrari,do you think that the win that
Lewis executed was on their pacealone?
Or do you think that they hadmore that they could have done
at Ferrari?
No, I think I think that wasUh, and Louis, you know, once,
once Louis has got the bitbetween his teeth and the wind
(25:30):
in his sails, uh, he is, he isformidable.
Um, but, you know, there's onlydon't think he was.
I don't think he was, uh, savingYeah.
I think, I think at the end whenhe pulled out a lead, I think he
was just pulling out the lead atthe end one because they were
(25:51):
fading away.
And two, just for the fun of it,just like Kimi did, uh, whenever
it was when he set the fastestlap on the last lap, you know,
he was trying to do that inMonaco as well, but it was in
Canada.
He did that and it's just likeThis is, you know, I'm under
I'm going to win this and I'mAnd I think that's probably a
(26:11):
little bit what Lewis was doingtoo.
And you know for Lewis, it's amassive, massive release more
than anything else, to behonest, because, you know, when
you have the amount ofcriticism.
He said it himself.
He said, you know, you hear theto, you hear the voices and you
(26:31):
to react to them.
You know, you doubt yourself, amAll these questions that other
you know, they have a right toUm, and it's tough because
sometimes you're just these guysthink to themselves, well, are
they right?
Are my critics.
Right?
(26:52):
Um, and if you don't listen toa bad idea as well.
Um, in my opinion anyway.
So no, I think what we saw was,I thought Lewis drove really
Uh, he did a great job and theYeah, I think all of the above.
(27:14):
I agree with you.
Um, if anything, I wrote aboutthat in my race notes.
Is that just the ability thatto achieve at least that one
which is to win in Ferrari Redlast year, I've watched and just
(27:37):
inspired me because I think allyou just said.
How much do you listen to othersand how much do you believe in
yourself?
And you have to have a level ofself-awareness and intellectual
honesty.
And that's got to be very hardon such a public level that he
has to operate, is that if yougo too far of ignoring
everything everybody says, youcan put yourself into a very bad
(27:59):
position of hubris andarrogance.
But then on the other side, whenyou are being attacked, where
people may think that they'resaying the right thing, but it's
not delivered in a way that it'swith goodwill.
It's very obvious to therecipient and they're going to
close off.
And that can make them becomespiral or again, bristle up.
(28:23):
And you could see that thatAnd I think that the timing of
car was where it needed to be,It was a track that he loves.
All of that came together, andthis can continue to hold on all
I think I think this issomething that people should be
(28:44):
aware of.
This will have raised Yeah.
Are those expectations going tobe because once you have high
expectations, you havedisappointment.
And it may be it may be that wethings that made the Ferrari
(29:04):
And it won't be happening theum, for example Austria.
She looked back over time.
Red bull has always beenUm, so maybe we'll just we'll
bull will be suddenly out ofYeah.
Because there is always thisIt's a good word.
(29:25):
That isn't it?
Um, the specificity of circuitswhere some cars go better than
others.
And, and you have to understandAnd there's, you know, it's to
do with the, the fundamentalunderlying fundamentals of a
chassis.
Some are good at one kind oftrack and some are good at
(29:46):
others.
And the skill is to get onethat's more or less good at all
of them.
Um, and that's really difficult.
And so I think we'll, it's aaway and start waving the flag.
And I thought, you know, Ium, silly saying we, you know,
Lewis might be challenges forYeah.
(30:08):
Right.
Um, I don't see that.
But, you know, this time lastyear we were going about how we
were going to win by a mile andhe didn't.
Right.
You know, just have to wait andAnd it's you know, I know it's
social media want to hear.
Like you just got to wait andYou know, there aren't any easy
(30:29):
But that's the truth of it.
There aren't any easy answersbecause things change every
minute.
Right.
And you know, right now as we'rebeavering away in all kinds of
and all kinds of stuff, tryingthat'll make the difference.
And, you know, that's, that'sIt's, it's formula one is a
(30:56):
Every element of it is moving.
It's like the most complicatedYou know, everything's moving in
Um, and then once everyand you get a result.
And, you know, sometimes thewhat's going on either.
You know, you've just got towhich is it's a great sport,
(31:19):
just enjoy it is the way I lookYeah, I do agree with you that
the design specificity, as yousaid of the circuit, it is often
undervalued, that that is one ofthe biggest challenges that the
team has to have of how generalbecause you don't want it so
(31:40):
general that it's notcompetitive.
But then yeah, they're going togoing to thrive and others where
And how do you do that inconjunction with everything
else?
That design philosophy actuallyleads me to actually talking
(32:00):
its history of doing well.
What do you think?
Did this race show us anyimprovement or any like, pull
back on the development side ofit?
It seemed like Max was expectingthis to be like a test of the
car, but did it give us theanswers to know where Red bull
is sitting?
Pretty much.
Yeah.
What did you draw away then?
(32:20):
When you say pretty much thesame, because Barcelona has
always been a track where thecar is judged more than the
drivers.
It's always been that way.
And if nobody makes anypodcast, you know, the grid is
(32:41):
quite the case this time becausemistakes down the grid.
But if you look at it, theit was there nonetheless.
Um, and, you know, you just seecompared to the other cars
element of a, of a car.
(33:02):
So, you know, if you'reparticularly good or bad or
whatever.
But that's always been the wayit's always that was that was I,
if you ask me why that's thecase, I couldn't possibly
explain it.
But I'm sure there are very But.
So what did you take away forNothing, really.
(33:23):
I thought it was a very, um,You know, they were there or
Um and it wasn't in nothingYeah.
Yeah.
I think I was surprised to seeI mean, I enjoyed Isaac's
(33:44):
performance, I thought hisdriving was not what I was
expecting.
That assertiveness that I keptseeing throughout the race was,
wow, okay.
That's great.
But overall, looking at the car,watching Max, I was really
surprised.
I thought that they would bewith the rest of the group.
(34:05):
Was that a surprise to you?
Did you draw those sameNo, I just I mean, the thing is
tracks have quirks.
There are things about themFor one, it doesn't work for
And I think we've said it on aWell, let's go and see what
happens in Barcelona becausethen you really find out where
(34:28):
things are.
And I think what we did was weAnd then the ultimate irony is,
duo question, um, you know,balancing everything out.
The FIA has concluded that thetherefore that becomes the um
(34:53):
else is judged.
So Red bull are not allowed anyAnd Mercedes is getting an
How the hell does that work?
I know the answer to this, butThat I can see the logic to it,
but it's just it it it'sillogical logic.
If you can have such a thing.
Well, yeah, I know we discussedthat I think during our last
(35:15):
race review, how they came tothis and why it in theory it
makes sense, but it doesn't makesense when you look at it in
actual practice and looking atit comprehensively.
Okay.
Well, so then what about theI know in the jsbmb you talked
I wondered if you wanted to talkabout Alpine's performance
(35:37):
itself, maybe even Pierre'sreinstatement in the Monaco
podium.
What are your thoughts about anyWell, um, the Monaco podium is
The stewards were given asituation where it was clearly
unfair that Pierre got thepenalty.
(35:58):
It was clearly unfair to threeor four others who had had the
same problem, but they servedtheir penalties.
And so to let to let Pierre getYes, that's fair on the one
But when you're being fair, onthe one hand, you're being
unfair on three or four otheraccounts.
(36:20):
Now, one, one might argue thatthe best thing to do would be to
do nothing and be unfair toeverybody.
Um, but which is, I think if Ia steward is really interesting.
I haven't been a steward, but Ium, uh, training courses for
(36:47):
and I went along to one of thosewhat they were learning.
Actually Laurent Marquez was,was it the FIA at that point and
running it.
And he invited me along.
Um just he said, you know, soit is to be a steward.
And I learned, I absolutelybe a steward because you are,
(37:10):
uh, what appear to be facts andAnd there's a lot of things you
And in this particular case, youto decide to be unfair or
But my view on that would be beAnd that's that's fairer.
(37:32):
So to give Pierre the place backBut I understand why they did
Now there's I mean that's allstill rolling on because now we
got a whole bunch of otherappeals going on, uh, from the
others who are saying, well,hang on a minute, this isn't
fair.
And it's quite right.
You know, it's not fair.
And it's a bad precedent too,because if you have a situation
(37:53):
where you let teams, um, ignorepenalties, uh, on the basis that
they can argue about itafterwards.
That's not good either.
So, um, you know, Pierre gothave to serve his penalty.
Um, because if you stop in a pitpenalty, you have to serve your
(38:14):
But you know, I just think thewhole thing, the whole thing was
a mess.
It shouldn't have been a mess.
The measurement shouldn't haveAnd while you can blame people
right, sure it's not right, butdecide how to fix the problem.
(38:35):
And I think it's better to beunfair to everybody, rather than
being unfair to only three ofthe four or four of the five,
whatever.
So that's a matter of styleAnd, you know, the the four
sat there and decided this.
Okay, so for me, I thought, whynot just I know it's a bit
(38:58):
controversial, but talking aboutbeing unfair, what if the race
result was just removed fromconsideration?
I mean, obviously it happened,race and I saw your face
You can't just say, well, thisrace didn't happen because it
did.
Um, and you can't just sort ofsay, well we'll annul it because
(39:22):
that's not fair to, to, to, toum Kimi who won the race in
Monaco.
Um, it's not fair to, to anybodyIt's also not good for, it's
So you've got to have a set ofrules that are that work
(39:44):
properly.
And if you get into situationslike this, you've got to be fair
about it.
And I think that by trying to befair, they ended up being
unfair.
Right.
I guess what I'm saying is go tothe extreme of it's not fair to
anybody.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like I think of it because itso many things tangled up with
(40:09):
out one is definitely unfair.
I guess I also wonder who shouldthe blame of this and have egg
their responsibility, I think isWho is putting on the race and
so that all of us who areand supporting this should have
(40:37):
aspect of this has been actuallySo that way we can have the
trust in the results and thatthe underlying things that the
stewards are making thedecisions on are also properly
there.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Like if you're going to do itcontroversial in a way that is
But I hear you.
(40:58):
If my thoughts are too extreme,I think the fact of the matter
is that it was the mistake madeby a subcontractor to the FIA,
which is Formula One management,and they only do the they do the
timekeeping because they havethis electronic ring around the
circuit which monitorseverything for the TV, the
(41:18):
sound, everything.
Um, and it's just more logicaland more practical for them to
do it.
Now they should do that properlyBut also, let's face it, the FIA
they don't make mistakes.
So who is the blame.
I think I mean you're the lawyerlaw, uh, the subcontractor would
(41:40):
Unless, uh, I think if Isomething like, unless the the
whole thing knew about it.
And, and therefore, um, I don'tknow if that was the case or
not.
I doubt it.
Um, because if you knew about ityou know, the fact is that that
(42:08):
the other or both.
And it honestly doesn't matterand everybody is impacted by it.
So the best thing to do is say,management said, you know, we
Um, great.
Yeah.
Shouldn't happen the first time.
But it did.
You know, it just makes thewhole sport look rather amateur
(42:30):
I think.
And and that's not good.
Um but it's, you know, it's theYou can argue the same thing
about the track coming up inMonaco.
That shouldn't have happenedAnd you know who's responsible
Well, there's the AutomobileClub of Monaco as the Government
of Monaco.
There's some contractor who mixtarmac up, the bitumen, you
(42:53):
different words, all meaning theum, but, you know, at the end of
be responsible for it.
And if in that particular case,And my view on that is that the
So, um, you know, that's whatThey are the regulatory body.
(43:16):
So yes, somebody else probablyBut they should have done.
And so we have kind of twosimilar at the same time.
But I still think at the end ofthe day, when you look at what
happened, I think it would havebeen fairer to just to say it's
unfair for everybody and not togive.
(43:37):
Pierre.
The other thing is Pierreothers hadn't been penalized.
That's the other key point.
You know, he made a big.
I mean, he did a great job.
He should get an Oscar for thatYou know, about how he was
And you know, this was his hestruggled and fought for the
podium.
He blah de blah de blah.
Um.
Yeah.
Right.
Uh, you know, he was lucky to beAnd so and that's what they do.
(44:01):
You know, the drivers play theYou hear George is good at that
He's the he's the guy who'sstewards on the radio saying
He did that wrong.
In England, we would say he's acall him a snitch, wouldn't you?
But, you know, but it's justand and they all do it, you
(44:24):
to their engineer knowing thatlistening into the conversation.
And, you know, if they haven'tspotted something um that they
will.
Ah, okay.
Yeah.
And it's, you know, it's likelying on the ground.
Yeah.
So injured for ten minutes, youup and running around.
No problem.
You know, just in there tryingSo, um, it's all a bit silly
(44:53):
what the stewards decided.
I just think it would have beenYeah.
I don't disagree with reallyIf anything, I'm just maybe
But I think that I am justof this, the track aspect of it
(45:16):
keeping, I do think going backcontractor or subcontractor, the
had already talked to the teamsSo that to me makes me believe
that there is enough there thatyou should have had more
oversight.
I would love to see the evidenceI have certain suspicions that I
(45:37):
think that it's not in right nowin anyone's best interest to
talk about it too much more thanwhat's already being there,
because it's all being stillappealed.
And, you know, like untilthis, but it is what it is.
And like you said, I don't thinkI think especially for it
(46:00):
where the I feel like outside ofthe world pays really attention
It just doesn't look good and IAs a fan.
Going back to Alonso and Alonsolooked like a broken man going
into the weekend, and it was anappalling weekend for Aston
Martin.
It was a shocker.
(46:21):
Absolutely.
Everything was horrible.
Um, I think I mean the rumorsto alpine and I that makes
I think he will.
And I think they'll give him a,and he'll pay him a load of
(46:42):
ambassador for Gucci.
And, uh, everyone will be happybecause he'll be back with the
same gang he's worked withbefore, so.
And he's right.
He's been to Enstone like threehis career is longer than War
So, um, it's got more chaptersUm, and, and, uh, so I think
(47:06):
ending your career on a high aswhich no Aston Martin might get
thing holds together.
Um, but I just think it's aYou know, he's forty five in the
No. And he said it himself.
(47:27):
I'm not really you know, Iprobably won't be back at
Barcelona again.
Um because I Barcelona misses abecause it's an alternation of
So I think I can see thatAnd he'll be very good.
Um you know, he's still good.
(47:48):
We don't know how good because,Aston Martin, uh, at that time
have, might have done moreYou know, it's like when, uh,
and when Alonso got in the car,Vettel had been because Vettel
just sort of drifted off intoBut I think that's you know I
(48:12):
So and I think it's probably aSo then what about Franco in
I know that we thoughtthere seemed to be a resurge.
And then I wondered when we sawgive way to Pierre.
(48:33):
It just made me kind of wonderIs that literally years doing
Um, or do you think some of thisI think I think that Franco I
Williams he looked very good forAnd then he started crashing
(48:58):
not Jack Doohan.
They um.
Oh dear me.
Uh, the American he replaced.
I'm sorry.
My brain is gone.
Oh.
Logan.
Sargeant.
Logan Sargeant.
Yes.
Uh, okay.
Um, he just started doing thesame things that Logan had been
doing, which was crashing, butfor a few races, he looked very
good.
And then, you know, alpine paida lot of money to get him out of
(49:20):
a Williams contract and put himin.
And I think he's been I'm notbecause he hasn't.
He's been okay.
But okay is not enough inYou've got to be better than
And I think that there's anPressure on him, which probably
(49:42):
But, you know, he seems to haveBut I'm not sure he's got the
that make a star.
And he's had a lot of time nowYou know, even if you're in a
bad car, you can still do thingsthat people go, oh, that's
interesting.
You know, that's, you know, it'scar, you see them at their best.
(50:04):
I've always found.
And sometimes you don't noticebecause they're obviously not on
camera.
They're not in the focus.
But sometimes people do thingsthat was impressive.
Um, and I think there's been alittle bit lacking in wow
factor.
Now that may upset Franco's, uh,vocal in their support of him.
(50:30):
But, you know, that is if youlook at the reality of the
situation, um, you can see howand let's face it, you know,
Flavio Briatore doesn't give atoss about what the fans think
about anything.
You know, he, he just wants toget, um, the best things
together that he can gettogether.
(50:51):
You know, it's not always theSometimes it's making more money
But um, you know, that is, uh,at the moment he needs to have a
really good team, um, more thanhaving the money because, you
know, obviously the rival ofGucci is going to be a, uh, a
big financial bonus for theteam.
(51:13):
And, you know, uh, Fernando is aformer world champion,
admittedly a thousand years ago,but he was a double world
champion.
And Pierre Gasly is not a doubleHe's won one race.
You know Franco has won nothing.
So from a just on a on on paper,having Fernando Alonso, who is a
(51:33):
long established star in Formulaone in your team is a good
thing.
And if he's still delivering allgood a job, if Franco is Franco
he's still more value because hethe bag with him.
(51:55):
It's a bit like the bit like theargument about if your drivers
are the same speed as oneanother, the one who speaks four
languages is more valuable thanthe one who doesn't speak four
languages.
You know, it's that kind ofNow, obviously Briatore thinks
that, or we'll see if itactually happens.
(52:16):
But I would imagine that, uh,that reason, because it's not
Franco probably might be better.
And there's a lot more bonuses.
Yeah.
Well, as you were talking, itAlpine, when you look at the
(52:40):
performance, but you think aboutside of it.
Both, um, Mercedes and Alpinehave more similarities in my
mind at the moment in the sensethat you have Kimi and you have
Franco who came in in the sameclass, essentially into the into
the grid.
And then you have Pierre andGeorge, who are also essentially
(53:01):
peers, and then you have Lewisand Fernando who are essentially
peers.
They all kind of thoseAnd if if the analysis were the
same, Kimi, if Kimi wasn't doingas great as he was and the
opportunity to bring back Lewispresented itself.
I think Mercedes assuming likelooking at the paper, you could
(53:28):
did about the value of bringingchampion, two year team, as he
If you've got someone who isprobably the parallel breaks,
multi-race winner versus Pierre.
But the talent and the abilityto to stay on the grid as long
(53:49):
as either one of them have issimilar.
And so I think unfortunately forwhatever they have said as
So here's the option for thebusiness to bring in the multi
year champion.
And you're you're not able tohold up against that because
(54:10):
you're not delivering on thepotential that they had expected
for you.
I don't think that, uh, if youlook at what alpine did to, uh,
Jack Doohan, that wasn't fairbecause Jack was never given a
proper chance to show what wedo.
But I think Franco's had enoughHe has.
(54:32):
They've been very fair with him.
I think that, uh.
Williams.
I mean, the Williams were fairI mean, they gave him the drive
moved on from him.
But, you know, they they soldwanted it and, um, and got a lot
(54:53):
So, um, you know, I thinkI just think, you know, you've
got to formula one is aboutdelivering.
And if you don't deliver enough,think you've delivered enough,
people in the business makingI mean, believe me, Formula One
would love to have FrancoColapinto and a grand prix in
(55:17):
Argentina.
It would be fantastic.
Uh, another race in SouthNow, there's all kinds of
reasons why that might nothappen.
And certainly without Franco,for that to happen.
But these kind of decisionsnowadays that doesn't decide,
you know, we wanted a Chinesedriver.
(55:39):
Guanyu Zhou had a lot of, uh,He was able to do a certain
amount, but that didn't affectthe race.
You know it it probably broughtMaybe usually that's what
Um, but you know, that's Chinahas been on, uh, the formula one
calendar for twenty odd yearsnow.
It's hard to imagine, but thatUm, so, but Argentina, it's been
(56:05):
I did go to some Argentine GrandI can't remember which years
I guess it was in the nineties.
Um, and they were great.
They were, they were, they were,uh, I mean the track was, um,
out of date and all the rest ofit.
But they were they were goodevents and they were very
popular.
But again, if you can't pay forbe a race?
(56:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, so I'm looking at thetime, so I want to make sure we
don't overlook the rest of thegrid.
I wonder what your thoughts areWilliams their days because of
of the field.
I feel like it wasn't so obviouswhat the day looked like for
those teams.
(56:50):
What are your takeaways of anyRacing Bulls did a great job.
Um, and Haas, I mean, you've gotwith all the, the, uh, the
points up for grabs that aren'tbecause Charles wasn't there.
(57:11):
And in the end, Kimi wasn'tSo there were points there that
um, were to be grabbed now, butRacing Bulls did did a very good
job all weekend and that car isobviously good and they are
improving it.
They've got some very goodTheir house is smaller.
Um and you know it strugglesAnd uh, Williams Williams, uh,
(57:43):
from the very beginning of thetheir car to be very good there.
And it wasn't.
So, you know, if your car's nogood, there's a lot of things
that still need to be done tothe Williams.
You know, there's still weightUm, I think also that's part of
with the Red bull too, I thinkoverweight as well.
(58:05):
But you know, that's, that'ssnapshot of where you are on a
And I think what we saw isUm, how completely useless Aston
from the pace Cadillac was.
(58:26):
And the rest of it is just, youknow, boom, boom, boom, boom
boom.
And what did you think aboutAudi and Nico's unfortunate
incident of the rock hitting thekill switch?
Well, it's it's certainlyUm, but they weren't really, uh,
(58:50):
But, you know, that's kind ofwhere they're at as well, you
know.
So I don't think we actuallyIt just, it just sort of
more than anything.
And, um, and now we just gosee, you know, how things play
(59:12):
also from upgrade to upgrade,whereby new stuff comes.
You know, Aston Martin areIt sounds like almost a new car,
Um, I don't know if they'll makeit for the summer break or not
before, but, you know, and maybewe'll see them suddenly being in
(59:36):
the midfield where they shouldbe.
Um, but I don't know if that'sWe'll see.
They certainly aren't wastingThey clearly putting everything
So a B version of the car,whether the B version of the car
has the same chassis, I don'tknow.
But we'll see.
(59:59):
So if you're a new fan andyou're watching this Grand Prix,
what would you say is the thingthat they should understand from
watching the race or the keytakeaway that they should have
had?
I think the thing, if you arecompletely new for that, um, is
the my favorite word again,specificity of a track two
(01:00:23):
different cars.
You know, some people don't knowbeginner, um, racing is track
better on one circuit than itSimple.
And added to that, you alsoit's so true nowadays, but it is
(01:00:49):
drivers like some tracks moredon't like some tracks, so they
ones they like.
And uh, so there are, you know,there's all kinds of elements to
it that as a, as a, you know,it's not, it's not just the same
every week.
It might have looked like it foractually it wasn't.
(01:01:12):
If you look at it closely, thereso happened that Mercedes won
Now Ferrari has won one.
Now, the thing I'd say is, don'tbeginning of a new regime,
I might be wrong, you know.
And that's the other thing aboutit is that you can you can
(01:01:34):
listen to the voices, theobservers, and they can say,
this is the Ferrarisrenaissance, and they might be
right.
It might be wrong, it might beBut at the end of the day,
get there and do it, you know?
And that, I think, is somethingthat we can all learn from
really, which is, you know, justjust to take it and enjoy it for
(01:01:58):
what it is and we can analyse itlater.
Um, but can we predict theNo we can't.
Yeah, yeah.
I agree with a lot of what youIf anything, I love the idea of
If you start to look into thedetails, you can see that it's
not literally the same thinghappening over.
(01:02:19):
It's like opening up the hoodmuch more complexity that has
even if the ultimate resultthere can be some signs of what
But we also know that there aretoo many variables that happen
at any given race that you can'ttruly forecast.
(01:02:42):
It's like weather forecasting.
They have a lot of good datais likely to happen.
But if you ever took a weatherand said, this is what I'm like,
you're, you're being a littleliterally predict the future.
I think for me, if I weretalking to a new fan, which I
(01:03:04):
know many of our listeners are,is that I think that Barcelona
is a driver's circuit and astrategy circuit.
And this year showed that if youthe cars look a little bit
ahead, I think that that was athe teams, because I think they
(01:03:26):
from this specific track.
And that's part of the reasonAs you noted, Jo, a great place
to size up where everybody isthat snapshot and that the
drivers, I think, seem to likeit.
It's it seemed like they wereAnd so that puts them into a
(01:03:49):
what it needs to do.
It's like a level of confidence,because they've been there, and
measure themselves, and thatheadspace to then think
the box, to use experience orfigure out where are the gaps.
And so that's why I think Ialways look forward to this
(01:04:10):
race.
I am disappointed that it'sgoing to be alternated, but you
know, it is what it is andthat's what the calendar will
be.
And hopefully there'll be othertype of activity.
Just one thought, and that is itprobably isn't immediately
obvious, but Barcelona isactually more predictable race
(01:04:32):
than any other, includingMonaco.
If you look back in historymore, I think it's only three
drivers in thirty six years whoweren't on the front row, who
won.
It's always the front runner.
That's way more than Monaco.
Monaco.
You know, the percentage of polethan any other circuit.
(01:04:54):
Why?
That's a good question, but it'sIt's a it's a circuit that
values the car more than thedriver.
Yeah, Monaco actually values theSo that's an extraordinary
But it also means you can havesome very dull races at
Barcelona too.
(01:05:16):
Um yeah.
Because things don't changeThere you are.
Yeah.
Oh I love that data pointthe reasons I do like Barcelona,
favour the car.
And because of that, the valuelittle bit more.
The strategy, the setup, how arewith the driver?
(01:05:40):
Like it's like that's theplatform for the driver then to
truly shine or be called out insome ways, like if they can or
cannot produce the results thatare needed if the car is in a
good place.
And I love how that when youtalk about that in comparison to
Monaco and for them to have ithappen consecutively, that also
is a really cool way to see isthe driver's talent matched up
(01:06:04):
with where a car and vice versa,is a car matched up with the
driver's talent.
So I'm really glad you pulledSo next up is Austria.
Anything you're looking forwardI think additionally, Max and
Red bull have done very wellthere.
And, uh, I mean, it's a, it's aIt's, uh, it's simple.
(01:06:26):
It's always, it's always goodAnd, uh, it'll be really
You know, I can see Red bullthan they have been in recent
So this is this is why I loveFormula one, because it is
unpredictable.
Even when it's beingSo yes, it may not be obvious,
(01:06:52):
but if you look, if you digbeneath, beneath the surface
just a little bit, you find outthat actually everyone is
different and everyone isinteresting.
And I never, ever, ever get Yes.
Um, because I'm always lookingat all the different things
going on.
I do a thing called a lap chart.
(01:07:13):
I don't know if you'velap charts are where you write
come by every lap.
And that way you followAnd at the end of the race, you
know exactly what happened toeverybody.
You don't know all the reasonsI'm just trying to look and see
(01:07:33):
don't at the moment.
Um, I have one that's not filledit's a grid and you just write
But, but there's all kinds oflittle annotations that tell
you.
And so I'm always fascinated bySo the more you get into it, the
(01:07:53):
That's I think I wholeheartedlyagree, and that's one of the
many reasons I enjoy not onlythe Jsbmb, but your insights and
your willingness to have theseconversations, because I feel
like a kindred ness with you onthat, that I enjoy getting down
into the gritty details andthinking through what are the
(01:08:13):
threads that might not beobvious.
It's just a wonderful sport.
And if anything, Joe, I lookforward to our next
conversation.
Okay, friends, what did youDrop me a line via email.
Sabrina at Two Guys, a girl andCan you help us out?
If you haven't already, pleasetake a moment to follow us and
(01:08:36):
give us five stars on yourfavorite podcast app, as well as
share this episode with other F1fans.
We know our growth is because ofyou and the guys and I thank
you.
And with that, let me say we'lllistening in because we're just
John, Dick and me.
Sabrina, thanks for listening.
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