Kimi Antonelli won at Spa like it was never in doubt. Charles Leclerc briefly led after a caution that made at least one voice in the booth uneasy about how it came about. And by the closing minutes, Dick, Joe, and Sabrina couldn't even agree on whether this was a great race or a manufactured one, or whether that question even makes sense from a TV screen versus trackside. There's also a paddock story making the rounds about a coming change to a rival team's driver program that nobody's confirming yet.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Hey friends, thanks for takingtime to listen in on a
conversation.
Dick, Joe Saward and I had aboutthe twenty twenty six Belgian
Grand Prix Spa is one of theraces we all look forward to
each year.
This one didn't sit right withDick had his own read on why and
As you'll hear, we couldn't evendrive at this track, let alone
(00:27):
But before we get to ouryou help us out?
If this show adds value to yourF1 experience, please take a
moment to follow us and give usfive stars on your favorite
podcast app.
Share this episode with other F1That's how people find us and
it's how we keep growing thiscommunity.
Hope you enjoy our conversation.
(00:49):
All right gentlemen, it is goodanother motor race.
As you said, Joe.
This one happened to be in InIt took me a minute.
Well.
Uh. So let's get started, guys.
What was your highlight of thisJoe, you want to go first?
(01:14):
Um, well, I think thefirst of all, I mean, Spa is an
who's never been there should goEven with these current
generation of cars, it's stillspectacular.
And, uh, and I thought thewas completely dominant.
(01:35):
I mean, the only reason therewas because of a it's an
the, the safety car interludevirtual safety car actually, but
He gave him an advantage um withunderstand what that was about.
(01:58):
There was one bloke runningof composite, and it went on for
don't know, I'm suspicious byand I didn't like that at all.
Um, uh, which is, you know, Imean, I'm not saying there was,
but it would just look reallyodd.
(02:19):
Um, and, you know, put theGreat.
Terrific.
Kimi caught him up and passedIt was always going to happen I
have happened sooner if.
Well he was ahead anyway so umand retake it all over again.
So um but it just showed that,you know Kimi in the Mercedes
(02:39):
was, was brilliantly unbeatableand the championship's back to
where it was before his varioustechnical problems.
Okay.
That was mainly because GeorgeLewis got into trouble for
Um, and so basically everyoneAll fell over each other,
leaving it between Charles andand Kimmy.
(03:03):
Really?
I mean, the others weren'tThey weren't too far off.
Um, but they were, you know,they weren't really in the
fight.
So I think that's for me, that'sAnd you know, Kimmy.
Kimmy is just such a good driverUm, uh, he doesn't freak out.
(03:25):
He's he's nineteen years old andhe doesn't get excited about
stuff.
He, if he gets a, you know, ifhim, he just shrugs and gets on
That's really extraordinary.
There is one other thing I'dthat is that there is a story
Gwen Lagrou leaving Mercedes toAnd I think that's really
(03:50):
significant because Gwen Negruis the man who built Mercedes
junior team.
And you know he did it rightback to Esteban Ocon ten years
ago.
Um and he did it with George.
He did it with Kimi.
And the fact that he's nowbeen announced officially.
(04:10):
And nobody will say anythingabout it, but it's going to
happen.
Um, is a is for me veryalways been a cock eyed kind of
And if Gwen is in charge, hedifferently to the way Helmut
drivers with a chainsaw, youHe thought it was the right
(04:35):
Uh, and they sponsored probablya hundred drivers, and they got
two good ones at the end of it,because no matter how much you
pretend Max Verstappen was nevera Red bull junior driver because
he he only joined Red bull, uh,when he signed to, to race for,
uh, what was then AlphaTauri, Ithink, or Toro Rosso, Toro Rosso
even.
(04:55):
Yeah, that long ago.
Whichever.
I can never remember what yearYeah.
Basically Max was never a RedSo basically they got out of
their scheme of one hundreddrivers.
They got Vettel and they gotNobody else ever won much and
they axed an awful lot of goodpeople.
And uh, I think with a, with a,with a completely rethought
(05:20):
sensible plan.
The other thing is that whenthey do that, of course their
driver costs will come down um,considerably.
You know, Mercedes, ironicallydrivers than any other team,
much on drivers.
Um, and, uh, Red bull isof their drivers is, you know,
(05:46):
So and McLaren is spending moreprobably twenty percent, thirty
percent more.
It just goes to show that, youknow, there is a value in these
things anyway.
That's not race related, but itI was just going to say, Joe, I
if you look at it from, um, awhich I know you're doing, but
(06:11):
building a pipeline that may notfive years, right?
Um, you're still going inensuring yourself that kind of,
of talent.
And especially if Gwen is theRussell and Kimmy and those guys
Um, you know, I mean, that'sbull down the road, you know?
(06:36):
And if they can keep Max anda good job.
Um, you know, they're notfor drivers now, but five years
And so I think it's a greatYeah, that's one of the problems
moment is that some years theyyears they've got too many.
(06:59):
And right now there are too manyWho's looking really good in
They've got staff and Lawson andSo they're going to have to dump
get five blokes into four seats.
They even tried that a few yearsUm, when they had Liuzzi and
(07:21):
One, which was totally stupidAnyway, let's go back to the
Yeah, yeah.
But still a great point.
So, you know, I always lookyou know, it's just such a an
such a history, you know, andused to be about double the
(07:45):
you see today.
And they shortened it years andyears ago for safety reasons
basically.
Um, and because it's just, youit's just too hard to marshal
for safety and, you know, allAnd so, you know, again, it's
(08:07):
and it's, it's set in anAnd, um, every once in a while,
camera and there'll be a cameraexactly just how steep some of
are either going up or down.
And so, um, it's, it's just agreat, uh, classic racing
(08:29):
circuit.
And, um, and, you know, I've toJoe's point, I, I think this
race was always going to bekimi's.
Um, the way he was in practice.
Um, you know, George again, wasclose to Kimi most of the time.
(08:49):
Um, and then he had apparently,but some sort of a battery issue
slow down at the start, which isand send George off into the
And so, you know, this race washarvest it and deployed because,
(09:16):
to be an energy poor track as,And so we saw a little bit of a
think where it's, you know, whothan anything else, I think.
So to me, those were kind of theBut but you know, when Charles
there watching it and I thought,Kimi's going to win this thing
(09:42):
And, um, and sure enough, itonce he went into the lead.
So anyway, that was my take.
I have so much to say abouty'all's highlights and even the
hot topics.
Maybe we'll catch those again atthe full race review for me.
My highlight was actually IsaacHagar's ending spot from where
(10:05):
he started.
Considering all the things thatwe've talked about this race,
and hopefully we'll talk aboutas we debrief about the how the
teams landed or how the driverslanded.
I just thought it was quiteskill and how hard he worked to
to, I think it was P six.
(10:26):
He ended up.
And I know we.
I'm not in any way detractingI'm just thinking of a person
sophomore year and how hard thatWe talk about the Red bull
was really impressed by that.
(10:47):
I think that it was it's notbecause of all the other topics
that have happened regardingthat race.
It's kind of flown under theAnd so for me, that was the
It's an interesting point youBut then again, I my view on
that is that there are clearlyfour dominant teams and four
dominant castes.
That means, and therefore oneshould do that.
(11:12):
Um he did slightly better, butSo that's seven cars.
So he finished P6 um and then I,penalties and things that
lesser or greater extent.
But um, you know, yeah, he did asame thing about, um, I
(11:33):
the field, but he did a greatUm, and I think that, you know,
sometimes when people drivethrough the field, it, they are
someone like spa where you canovertake.
I don't see it as being such ayou did that at Monaco, you'd
(11:54):
you can't do that.
But I'm not I'm not criticisingI'm just saying that's more or
where he should have been.
But I don't think it was.
You know, I don't I wouldn't putUm well no, I'm not saying that
I'm, I'm definitely not sayingit's like a highlight that's
going to live, you know, fordecades.
(12:15):
I think that when we look at thereliability issues that have
been plaguing, it seems like allthe cars.
But I do I agree with you on soLet me say that first, that if
he was, he's in a Red bull thatis improving.
And if he wasn't able to harnessthat car, there would be some
serious questions as to histalent.
(12:36):
And so I do think that is thatAnd I agree that the group that
he should be in, which is reallya great segue to the front of
field discussion.
He should be playing in thewhere he started.
But I think that where I wasreliability issue and some of
(12:57):
about this deployment andplagued, and even Max didn't
happy with the with the car.
So that's Max, who is in a classI think when I think about
the second seat and how mentallytimes, going back to what we
(13:21):
how they manage drivers.
I think what I keep coming backconsistency in enough and
proving that this newAll the things are coming into
(13:42):
seat driver, be it Isaac in thisversus I think in the past,
have prevented him.
He's taking advantage of theIs he excelling, dominating?
Probably not.
But do I think he has theI think we it's a wait and see.
I would want to hope that heCan I leap in there?
(14:05):
I think you're right.
To a large extent you're right,crumble under pressure.
But, uh, if you look to whatAlex Albon, for example, did
there, he didn't crumble underpressure.
And the fact that Red bullridiculous thing to do.
I never understood why, justthey decided that they would,
(14:27):
to sell more drinks in Mexico.
Who knows?
I don't know why they decided onbecause because Alex showed that
stand up to the battering thatthe others didn't.
And it's true, they, they they,some of them were poor, very
poor.
Um, but, you know, in, in a lotit because they were thrown into
(14:52):
But you know, if they crumbledyou can blame them for it.
Um, but I don't know, it's, it'sbut I don't think we should say
seen people say, well, Isaac'sdriver Red bull have had.
I don't agree with that.
I think that Alex was better.
(15:13):
Um, now, in the end he wasn't,but he, you know, he got to a
point where he could have wonraces.
Um, he didn't in the end.
Um because things didn't turnout by Lewis Hamilton um when he
And you know, so I don't thinkwe should overplay what Isaac's
done.
I think as Isaac's clearly good.
(15:35):
But you know, is he I you wondersometimes I look at what Arvid
Lindblad did on his first visitin a formula one car to spa and
go wonder what he could do in aRed bull?
Oh yeah.
I don't think actually, Joe,we're disagreeing because I
would not say he's the bestdriver that's been in the second
seat.
I think that's one premature.
Two is that there are so manyI agree with you that Alex.
(16:00):
Alex.
His removal makes no sense tome, especially when you look at
the full chessboard that washappening.
I think there was things outsideorchestrated his departure.
So I think, yeah, we're agreeingI just think in this case,
looking at this race, looking athow he drove, considering where
we are in the season, what Redbull has been going through, I
(16:22):
just enjoyed seeing him makethat move.
I will say, though, this may bea philosophical difference, I
don't personally like to blameany of the drivers unless
they're doing somethingegregious.
I'm very much of wanting to be athink that they.
Especially now more than ever.
(16:42):
Social media has allowed you.
You are allowed because you're.
You're an insider in theYou have so much access and
But I think as a person like me,preponderance of people, we
And to sit there and blame andfeel very strongly against and
(17:03):
Is that because there's so muchshow up onto that grid?
And I truly respect them, thatI'm like gonna stand firm and be
I'm willing to point out andprovide critical feedback, but
still couch it as I'm not thedriver.
(17:24):
I don't have the fullinformation and I respect them
too much.
I feel like it's arrogance on mySo I guess that's just a little
I don't I think, I think, Iis, and I'm not blaming them
You know, you'll even hear meoccasionally defending Lance
(17:45):
stroll and saying that Lancestroll is has got tariff because
he does.
And underneath it all, he doesBut you know, the job of, of, of
being a Formula one journalistis, is not putting your own
ideas in.
It's looking at the facts.
And the facts are very simple.
The facts are.
(18:06):
And whether, whether you canafterwards, but the facts are
rarely in a twenty four raceThey reflect the level at which
that's the way I look at it.
(18:27):
Um, so I'm not you know, I whendrivers make ridiculous
mistakes, yes, I'll say that'sridiculous.
But, um, you know, I agree within a league of their own.
And you've seen.
You can see that when you whenyou see some of the other things
that, you know, otherchampionships around the world,
the level at which these guysare operating, operating is so
(18:48):
much higher.
Um, and this is why they'reothers aren't there.
And when one of them, when a,a failed Formula one driver goes
know, he's still a star.
So I think we should always bearUm, but, you know, there's a lot
of other things that get in theway.
(19:09):
You know, there's national bias.
You only have to look at thefootball thing, you know, to see
national bias in operation, youknow, um, and people just
getting upset because their teamgot beaten.
Um, and there's a lot of that informula one and I find that very
ugly and unpleasant, the kind oframpant nationalism.
Um, I really don't like it.
(19:30):
And uh, uh, and I will fightif you fight against it, you get
your face on a gravestone andYeah, I think that especially
when it comes to you, I thinkthat you have said it exactly
right.
You are a journalist.
And so therefore you have toLike, I just think the seat that
(19:56):
occupy is non-journalist with ain the discourse, because I do
clue, sitting there andattacking people and are just so
And I think that was a premisethat we had when we started the
(20:17):
podcast, was that we weren'tgoing to be those type of
individuals.
I know I'm kind of speaking forUm, that was actually John's
about the drama of.
Yes, it is about drama, but it'sIt's talking about this sport
with honesty and intellectually.
(20:40):
Which means we'll go down theThis is supposed to be about the
Um, and that's why we were soglad that, Joe, you've been
doing these episodes with usbecause you bring an insight
that I think that is so valuableand helps us to see it with more
foundation.
And you're, you're again insideand knowledge and history, which
(21:05):
that you are having theseUm, okay.
So all that said, I know that weI'll tell you and maybe we this
longer than it was.
I personally was so heartbrokenas to such a race that is so
classic and one that I lookforward to.
(21:27):
I felt this year was absolutelyI was just, I was so not
I mean this again, not tobut it was not what I expected.
When I think about Spa, I thinkabout harnessing power, pushing
the car to the limit and seeingpeople do.
(21:48):
When we talk about theI usually sit with like eager
But as the race just continued,And it's not even like past
it all outright.
There was a level of feelinglike something was being
manufactured.
I know you were saying thatI questioned that I was going,
(22:12):
It's a this is the longest, oneof the longest, if not the
longest track that we have inthe year.
Why do we need to have a fullcourse yellow happening for a
Marshall, which I respectsafety.
But do you see like it just.
I mean, maybe that was just me,but I didn't feel this
enthusiasm.
The the the thing we should noteYou don't see the whole track,
(22:38):
So maybe, maybe there were otherthings going on that that kept
that VSC going as long as itdid.
But if that was the case, whyUh, you know, we should have to
The TV is there to tell us whythings happen and, uh, and
because we didn't see anythingelse.
(22:59):
It was therefore very suspiciousUm, but, you know, I, I also
like to believe that officialsdon't do that sort of stuff
anymore.
They certainly have done in theback in the day.
Uh, I'd say probably the lastever questioned, um, the way
(23:25):
if there is any interventionbefore then though, there were
this is being.
You know, this is being messedUm, and, you know, I will always
say when I have suspicions ofthese things, I. And I think
it's down to really, ultimately,whether you respect the, the way
(23:47):
that the, uh, the federation isrun.
And I think that that is, thatbit by some of the messes we've
Um, that faith in that kind of,uh, the way race administration
is run is, um, is waning alittle bit.
(24:11):
And that's not a good thing.
That's not a good thing at all.
I think we need to have totalAnd you see this in other,
you know, um, and you seestrengthen their, um, people's
processes because too manywhat's all this about?
Why does that happen?
(24:33):
Um, so, you know, we can, we canthis is odd.
It's for them to fix it.
And if they don't fix it, itIt's, it's very simple.
Um and how do you fix it?
Well, that's again, it's theirUm, but you know, I think that's
something worth mentioninganyway.
(24:53):
Yeah.
And I would add to that, youthere watching the race and it
was not the most exciting race.
Let's just go there.
And, um, and I wondered how muchof that was just due to the new
rules.
And we still haven't gotten ourarms around how to make these
(25:15):
rules work on a track thatdoesn't lend itself to, uh, a,
a, a rule set that that is sodependent on actually touching
the brakes and generatingelectricity.
You know, and, um, and to me, itwas really sad because I got the
(25:35):
feeling that there were justsome of those corners that were
just not the corners that theyused to be, you know what I
mean?
And, um, and because the driverswere not in a position to go
through, you know, flat out ornearly flat out, you know, were
they flat going through EauRouge?
Where are they flat goingGoing through like pouhon and
(25:59):
places like that where you justkind of gasp at how fast they're
going.
And, um, and so to me, I thinkit as well.
Um, you know, and I can I askYeah, I mean, I, I don't mean
I guess that neither of you hasYeah.
(26:21):
And so the key point I think is,and this is why I, I go to spa
with the same level of sort ofexcitement as you're talking
about.
But when you actually go there,When you go and see it, it is
terms of because TV, as we'veeverything out and makes it look
(26:47):
don't see the same level.
I don't get, you know, I neverfind a race, um, boring because
it's always exciting becausewhat those guys are doing in the
spaces they're doing it in isalways impressive.
And spa is particularly Okay.
You know, it wasn't the greatestI accept that, but it's still a
(27:11):
And that's why I think I'm moreenthusiastic about the race than
perhaps because I know whatthey're like.
Well, I guess I wasn't.
I'm not saying that I expectI don't expect wheel to wheel in
I think it's when you haveI mean, I haven't watched nearly
And that's not trying to callBut I'm saying is that even
(27:36):
But I'm saying is when you I doAnd so when you watch the
just like when you talk aboutdo agree that the TV flattens it
over the years, there wasI guess the word was dynamic
(27:59):
the human, of the machine overAnd I will say, I've done the
high quality sim of the BelgianGrand Prix, and it wasn't until
I got into that sim that I went,oh crap, now I understand what
they're harnessing, especiallywhen you're going up that Eau
Rouge and you're going throughthose turns.
Your memory.
(28:20):
I remember the first time I didway does it go?
Like, am I going to crash intoand I, I think that's part of
our drivers, because it wasn'toh, and I'm not even doing it
Like literally, I can push aI felt like this year it was
(28:46):
So maybe I don't maybe theIt just wasn't as exhilarating
push, because I feel like thethe drivers, and maybe that goes
But here's the question I have.
I've been reading that, yes,there were times where the
(29:07):
drivers were literally fullthrottle, but the car, because
of the energy management system,was not giving them the full
power.
They would feel that drop.
And it was also inconsistent.
And I thought, well, when weto the edge.
If I'm the driver and I'mlearning this car, it's a new
(29:29):
rig and each time I'm taking thelap, there isn't a consistency
of the car, even if it's doingsomething I disagree with or
dislike.
Yeah, they're probably trying toDo you see where I'm.
I'm wrestling with guys.
Yeah, I know you, but you can't.
You can't.
I don't think you can.
What you can do is say, youYou can say the regulations are
(29:53):
What we know is that the driversthe absolute maximum.
Okay?
If at times they can't drive itas fast as the car might be able
to do if the configuration wasdifferent.
In other words, if you haveelectric power at certain
points, you'd be able to domore.
But if you did that, you'd loseUm, you know, you can't.
(30:16):
I don't think it's right toUm, I don't think it makes it
are driving it to the maximum.
So okay, they can't all be flatevery corner, but that's always
(30:39):
You know, you, you drive withThe question is whether or not
are the right machines or areof the game?
And the FIA kept on insistingaway from one hundred percent.
We're not going to say fiftyWe're not going to change it.
We're not going to change.
You're not going to change it.
Even when people told them thisSo who's to blame for that?
(31:04):
Is that, uh, is that the sportIs that a federation that's to
I don't know the answer to that.
You know, the teams obviouslynot, you know, the FIA was told
didn't change it.
And now when there is a reactionin the finest traditions of, oh,
(31:28):
gee whiz, look, the horse hasbolted.
Let's shut the door.
Um, that's what they're doing.
So one has to question the not,whole, but the people who came
sport what it is today.
And so that's really theUm, at the same time, you know,
(31:51):
it's still exhilarating andexciting stuff no matter where
it is.
And particularly on a place, awhy I think, you know, when you
you see, you know, if you try torun out of breath.
And I don't know if you'reOh my word.
(32:14):
Yeah.
Isn't it?
Yeah.
But but that will still not giveyou anything like the G forces
and the bottoming out and goingup the top and the whoa over the
top.
You know, you can't get thatYou won't get that.
And, and, you know, even ifyou've got a seat belt
(32:36):
tightening device, all theseother things that they have on,
you know, to simulate brakingand stuff.
But I think, I think we justAnd this is why I say people
they can, because they are justdifferent perspective when you
And I know you and I knowthere's no time, there's no
money, whatever.
(32:57):
Well, if anything, that goes toa different point that I walked
away from though, Joe, I'm notdisagreeing with anything you
said.
I think that this race justthis decision to go to the
we've gone to was not ideal.
And I think in the long termI think the other side, going
(33:24):
that for those people who makeit's not even an easy schlep to
I just had to turn on the TV andlike, okay, this is a good race.
Could it be better?
Yes, I'm a little bored.
Yes, about lap twenty two, I'msome of the strategic things
(33:50):
could be even better, right?
I thought to myself, if I werean American or I was someone
from a different part of theworld, I paid the money to come
out here.
Is this the most dynamic race?
I would just be like, wow, thesecars, this power, this, I don't
know.
I mean, I literally don't knowBut listening to you, maybe that
(34:11):
calculation for me if I hadBut I just think that for the
sport, the regulations are notshowing.
What I think we talk about isthat this is the most amazing
sport.
Okay.
Yeah, I think I think the way toto answer that is if you look at
(34:33):
the rising audiences at everyrace, the crowds are record
breaking.
Now at every race.
The British Grand Prix beat theThe Belgian Grand Prix beat its
All the rest of this stuff.
When you when people go toactually see a race, they become
fans.
They become serious fans.
You know, the first time they goto a motor race, they get
hooked.
(34:53):
That's one point.
The other point is that we arestill in the first year of this
regulation set.
Okay.
Mhm.
It was perhaps overly ambitiousand perhaps they should have,
um, moderated it before theseason began.
But you know Stefano DomenicaliSo by the end of the year, he
(35:21):
One, the genius Formula Onemost of these problems.
Now, I'm not sure if that's onecertainly a year from now I
conversation because althoughdeployment and this and that
the technology will have movedAnd, um, and because that's
(35:45):
brains are working on how do weAnd so we are still, you know,
we are what are we six, four,four, four months into a new
championship?
And it's easy to criticize, uh,because there are things that
aren't right.
And we're at circuits where thatAnd I would go to the
(36:05):
and I doubt you'll hear veryanything because they won't have
Right?
And in some of the tracksissue has disappeared already.
So, you know, we are we areAnd but I think we need to be
you know, where, how muchIt's not in trouble at all.
(36:30):
It's doing better than ever.
But it can be better.
It can always be better.
And that's why when people askseason, I always say the next
view, the reality.
Um, and you know, I, I'm not oneof these people who goes, oh, of
course, nineteen seventy six wasmarvelous because, you know,
(36:51):
it's not my idea of it was it'sa bit like a Woody Allen movie,
you know, you forget all the youforget all the bad things about
the good old days and justremember the nostalgia, you
know?
Um, and I think that's wrong.
I think we should appreciateof it and look ahead.
But there we are.
(37:12):
Should we, should we go back to.
I think that would probably beOur audience is probably like,
okay, get to the get to the racereview.
So let's talk about that middleAnybody that stood out.
Uh, yeah, I thought, I thoughtI thought Lindblad did a very
Um, and I thought that, uh,Well, yeah, I bought a letter.
(37:36):
I mean, he was he was very good.
Um, yeah.
But basically, I think, youknow, those people who are, if
you like, outperforming theircars is what I'm always looking
for.
You know, I'm not saying thatoutperformed the car, but he
been under a lot of pressure.
(37:57):
And, you know, he's, he's risenSo I think that's very good.
I think Lindblad's been reallyBut he was particularly fast um
loving doing it.
And, and also the fact that hethe way around, which hasn't
(38:17):
Liam's been really good.
So, you know, there's all thatI thought, um, that that
remarkable for a young guy.
Um, and I think that it's reallyother talents there who are, are
And we will maybe we'll see ayear on the driver market.
(38:42):
But I think, you know, a placelike spa is where you really can
a driver is input can make adifference.
Um, and I think that's whatof the older guys, you know, uh,
the old drivers are just as goodThey're not young drivers start
(39:03):
understand the other things inYou know, they take risks that
Older drivers are better becauseUm, say they're better old
and therefore can balance outUm, but you know, it doesn't
scheme of things.
They probably don't crash aspoints and that's what matters.
(39:26):
So that's why so many of themBut you know, I'm a great
believer in, in um, I don'tthink you should necessarily
have an age limit for formulaone drivers.
But on the other hand, Isometimes wonder, because, you
know, Bernie Ecclestone used tosay there's no natural wastage
anymore.
In other words, people don't getSo the turnover is slower.
(39:48):
Um, in the driver world, whichwas the ultimate ultimately
cynical, of course, but actuallythe truth.
Um, and so I, I don't know theIt's a good one isn't it?
Um, but as long as peoplebring home the points, I guess
Um, but I'm not always convincedby some of the middle ranking
(40:12):
ones.
I think we'll see some of themI think this year maybe.
Hey, Joe, I've got a questionbecause what you said is it
actually made me kind of wonderif you think about Audi for a
second.
You have a highly experiencedyou have a young talent who's
(40:34):
I think in Bortoleto, you know,car that that Kimi has had to
But he's turned in some prettystrong performances really, I
think over the last season and ahalf.
And it makes me wonder if likeinteresting one two punch in
(41:00):
Hulkenberg has been verydeveloping that project.
And and, you know, HulkenbergBortoletto who seems to be
the the terrific stuff, but helead a team and develop the car.
(41:24):
I think that's what you'reAnd if you I mean, again, to
this, we're seeing thatKanaan at McLaren has just hired
Right.
Rosenqvist and they've dumpedLundgaard, you know, and
Lundgaard is clearly a risingtalent.
(41:44):
Now, we already know that Patovery technically minded.
So that the thought process thatthat is going on with Kanaan is
get the guy to know how to fixthe car, and then put Pato in it
to drive it faster than theycan.
Um, and I think that's reallySo if you have a young guy who
(42:05):
knows how to set the cars up,ultimately results in the young
Um, so yeah, there is thatSo, um, whether, whether it'll
work in, in the case of thearrow McLaren team, I don't
know.
Right.
(42:25):
But it is, you know, it's acannon to do, I think.
Yeah.
I mean, because if Lundgaardgoes off and and races for for
Ganassi and is, you know, notfar behind Palau, um, the other
teams may have a great deal oftrouble catching up with them
even.
I mean, you know, the wholething is dominant already isn't
(42:46):
it.
So yeah, yeah.
I mean, um, you know, and Ipersonality issues with
other drivers or something.
I, I, I've heard whispers ofUm, but I, I met, I met both of
(43:07):
asked you in, uh oh, in Austin.
I had a long chat with both ofI was impressed by both of them.
I thought, whoa, you know, forare smart guys.
They're clever.
They're not no fast bimbos.
Um, these guys are quick.
I mean, seagulls, not as quick,but he's a very intelligent
young guy.
(43:28):
Uh, and I was very impressed byto be, uh, have everything sort
But again, it's a little bitI met him and I thought Ferrucci
sometimes he was a lunatic onUm, but his wife, uh, I find a
(43:50):
you have to have, you know, highwhat they're doing.
Right.
And I think that's, you know,wasn't expecting when I met
Austin, I wasn't expecting themand able to express themselves
And that really was.
It was an interesting educationYeah.
(44:13):
Um, but if you talk to the youngguys in, in formula One, um, and
it's difficult, I know it soundsweird, but actually getting time
with these guys is really hardthese days because of all the
things.
Actually sitting down and havinga sensible conversation with
them is not as easy as it usedto be.
But, you know, I've known Kimicoming up, and that's a good
(44:38):
And he's just an exceptional,um, has an exceptional brain, an
exceptional, um, ability to copewith everything.
Ollie Bowman's a little bit thevery bright switched on.
Um, and again, because he was,he went through a reserve driver
phase.
Um, that's when you can reallyget to meet them and when the
(44:59):
press is not on yet, you know,and you can actually build a the
relationship with them, whichyou don't get the chance of
later on.
Um, because of just the way theSo, um, you know, I think it
respecting what the drivers areUm, we should always respect
(45:22):
where they are.
Is, is remarkably impressive.
Yeah.
Um, and, uh, you know, it's sowell, this guy's a waste of time
you waste your time or not.
And, uh, and I really try to So.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(45:43):
Totally fair.
I just want to go back to thegenerational discussion you guys
had.
I just want to chime in on that.
I think listening to that, it'salso a good business principle
that having multiple generationsof people together, I think
really is a healthy workingdynamic because it helps in
(46:03):
avoiding groupthink.
You have the experienced peopleand wisdom coming together.
So I think it's actually verysmart of Audi to have made that
match up.
I remember when they did it, INow, are they at the front of
Not yet, but I think that theyand utilize the fact that they
(46:30):
one who's got that youth and oneSo is there anybody else in the
back of the grid that you wantto talk about before we sign off
today?
The only thing I'd say thatjust quickly, and that is, yes,
is having a big new car.
Okay.
I mean it won't be necessarily aeffectively a new car.
(46:54):
The team reckons it will bewhich means they're only two
That's what you've got to bearSo don't expect them to be
challenging for victories nextweek.
They will be challenging fortwelfth or fourteenth place on
the grid.
That's the very best they canSo, you know, just there's a lot
(47:14):
A lot of people saying, yeah,but just wait till the new Aston
arrives.
I'm just telling you the newset the world on fire.
Probably right.
Yeah.
And we don't know whetherthey're correlation tools are
any good because they're stillusing some of their tools date
back to the days of Jordan GrandPrix.
And so you know it really is.
Yeah.
(47:35):
But Newey was saying when hefirst got there he was like oh
my goodness.
You know we you know yeah weBut our tools are terrible.
And um, and I know yeah, he'sbeen spending a year and a half
fixing that.
Um, but I, I view this car asAston Martin if it comes.
Right.
And they go to twelfth place.
(47:57):
That that's a win for thoseUm, because with a little bit of
Yeah, I know, I know, but youspend it, you look at how much
and what they, their ambitionswas being achieved before they,
(48:18):
don't think that's quite right.
But um you know, I think it's avery good example of the fact
that money won't fix things inFormula One.
It helps.
And if you, it's how you use theAnd that is, you know, that is
And you can go through theOne and show examples of people
(48:42):
and absolutely bombed becausementality, structure, whatever
And there are different reasonsUsually a lot of it is down to
People just turn up thinkingthey're better than they are and
they get nasty lessons that theydon't like, and often run away
and weep quietly after beinghumiliated publicly.
(49:06):
So yeah, this is something that,building teams and having
And this is why when you hearhear racing drivers talking
fantastic and the people back inNow, a lot of people do think,
(49:27):
that's vitally important.
Exactly.
I mean, so first off, theaudience has not seen my face
that even though you and I, Joe,have had moments of debate, I'm
actually nodding my head eightypercent of the time that you're
talking.
Uh, but I again, I think thatthink that the only person of
(49:52):
If you're failing to understandyou don't realize it.
If you are a highly intelligentthat team because they're the
They're the reason you're safelyThey have so many in-race
moments, but pre and post race,making sure that you can go out
(50:12):
there and focus on your job ofextracting the best out of that
car.
So yeah, my hackles got upbecause I was like, no, just
like, I don't want to see peoplevery ignorantly attacking
drivers.
I think there are teams thosewill say it's largely because of
little bit over a year and atalked about how hard these
(50:38):
sacrifice, why the bonus moneythese staff members of this team
gets out there.
And when I really sat andof a superficial knowledge.
But that was a great educationconversation for me, and I know
that it was for so much of ouraudience.
(50:59):
The other thing I will say,though, is I think it's
important that we just realizethat what you said about the
high intelligence of thesedrivers is that is something I
think, hopefully all of us whocome to the sport seek to have
like that.
We do think about this as what Ihope people would see in this
(51:20):
conversation is we're not justsimply going, oh, they ended up
here and this was the drama, butreally trying to understand
fully why did this happen andhow do we how do we appreciate
the people that are putting onthis show and putting in the
work?
Like it's an entertainment, butYeah, I think the big factories
(51:41):
have a thousand people workingthere.
It's not just the driver, youknow, and they're just think
about think about what in theworld do our thousand people do
to put two cars on a track everytwo weekends?
When you start to think aboutYou just go, okay.
Think of the level of detail.
Think about, you know, there'llbe two hundred of those people
(52:03):
who are doing things that don'twork just to find out they don't
work.
You know, there's value inYeah, exactly.
And, and there are so manyto this sport.
It's fascinating and it'sIt changes all the time.
But it is it's astonishing.
And you know, you can't justis finding out now.
(52:27):
You can't just turn up with aton of money, think you're going
to throw together a team andbecome competitive.
You know you're not.
And if you tell people you are,they're going to be
disappointed.
So, you know, it's all aboutmanagement of expectations as
well.
You've got to manageAnd a lot of Formula One teams
are not good at managingexpectations.
(52:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's not just formula OneNo kidding.
Well, on that note, I'm going tomanage expectations, which is we
said that we would respect theday jobs.
And those are calling for atSo we need to get going.
Joe, we hope that you continueconversations as you do your
(53:13):
just really grateful to have youSo on that note, I look forward.
I enjoy every minute of it.
It it it allows me to it allowsme to effectively to talk to the
fans because you're askingquestions.
I mean, you're asking questionsof a fan and Dick is asking
(53:33):
questions of someone in theindustry, but outside Formula
One.
And, and I get it.
And I like to answer thosequestions because it helps me to
understand what people arethinking.
And it also helps me to explainideas about, oh, maybe I should
an interesting point.
(53:54):
You know, so there's a value inOn that note, um Jsbmb.
We talked on a few of thiseverybody should make sure that
be a subscriber.
Yeah, I love it.
Every good stuff in there.
I've got to get going guys.
So I look forward to our nextOkay, friends, what did you
(54:21):
Drop me a line via email.
Sabrina at Two Guys, a girl andCan you help us out?
If you haven't already, pleasetake a moment to follow us and
give us five stars on yourfavorite podcast app, as well as
share this episode with other F1fans.
We know our growth is because ofyou and the guys and I thank
you.
(54:41):
And with that, let me say we'lllistening in because we're just
John, Dick and me.
Sabrina, thanks for listening.
Hey friends, thanks for takingtime to listen in on a
conversation.
Dick, Joe Saward and I had aboutthe twenty twenty six Belgian
Grand Prix Spa is one of theraces we all look forward to
each year.
This one didn't sit right withDick had his own read on why and
As you'll hear, we couldn't evendrive at this track, let alone
(00:27):
But before we get to ouryou help us out?
If this show adds value to yourF1 experience, please take a
moment to follow us and give usfive stars on your favorite
podcast app.
Share this episode with other F1That's how people find us and
it's how we keep growing thiscommunity.
Hope you enjoy our conversation.
(00:49):
All right gentlemen, it is goodanother motor race.
As you said, Joe.
This one happened to be in InIt took me a minute.
Well.
Uh. So let's get started, guys.
What was your highlight of thisJoe, you want to go first?
(01:14):
Um, well, I think thefirst of all, I mean, Spa is an
who's never been there should goEven with these current
generation of cars, it's stillspectacular.
And, uh, and I thought thewas completely dominant.
(01:35):
I mean, the only reason therewas because of a it's an
the, the safety car interludevirtual safety car actually, but
He gave him an advantage um withunderstand what that was about.
(01:58):
There was one bloke runningof composite, and it went on for
don't know, I'm suspicious byand I didn't like that at all.
Um, uh, which is, you know, Imean, I'm not saying there was,
but it would just look reallyodd.
(02:19):
Um, and, you know, put theGreat.
Terrific.
Kimi caught him up and passedIt was always going to happen I
have happened sooner if.
Well he was ahead anyway so umand retake it all over again.
So um but it just showed that,you know Kimi in the Mercedes
(02:39):
was, was brilliantly unbeatableand the championship's back to
where it was before his varioustechnical problems.
Okay.
That was mainly because GeorgeLewis got into trouble for
Um, and so basically everyoneAll fell over each other,
leaving it between Charles andand Kimmy.
(03:03):
Really?
I mean, the others weren'tThey weren't too far off.
Um, but they were, you know,they weren't really in the
fight.
So I think that's for me, that'sAnd you know, Kimmy.
Kimmy is just such a good driverUm, uh, he doesn't freak out.
(03:25):
He's he's nineteen years old andhe doesn't get excited about
stuff.
He, if he gets a, you know, ifhim, he just shrugs and gets on
That's really extraordinary.
There is one other thing I'dthat is that there is a story
Gwen Lagrou leaving Mercedes toAnd I think that's really
(03:50):
significant because Gwen Negruis the man who built Mercedes
junior team.
And you know he did it rightback to Esteban Ocon ten years
ago.
Um and he did it with George.
He did it with Kimi.
And the fact that he's nowbeen announced officially.
(04:10):
And nobody will say anythingabout it, but it's going to
happen.
Um, is a is for me veryalways been a cock eyed kind of
And if Gwen is in charge, hedifferently to the way Helmut
drivers with a chainsaw, youHe thought it was the right
(04:35):
Uh, and they sponsored probablya hundred drivers, and they got
two good ones at the end of it,because no matter how much you
pretend Max Verstappen was nevera Red bull junior driver because
he he only joined Red bull, uh,when he signed to, to race for,
uh, what was then AlphaTauri, Ithink, or Toro Rosso, Toro Rosso
even.
(04:55):
Yeah, that long ago.
Whichever.
I can never remember what yearYeah.
Basically Max was never a RedSo basically they got out of
their scheme of one hundreddrivers.
They got Vettel and they gotNobody else ever won much and
they axed an awful lot of goodpeople.
And uh, I think with a, with a,with a completely rethought
(05:20):
sensible plan.
The other thing is that whenthey do that, of course their
driver costs will come down um,considerably.
You know, Mercedes, ironicallydrivers than any other team,
much on drivers.
Um, and, uh, Red bull isof their drivers is, you know,
(05:46):
So and McLaren is spending moreprobably twenty percent, thirty
percent more.
It just goes to show that, youknow, there is a value in these
things anyway.
That's not race related, but itI was just going to say, Joe, I
if you look at it from, um, awhich I know you're doing, but
(06:11):
building a pipeline that may notfive years, right?
Um, you're still going inensuring yourself that kind of,
of talent.
And especially if Gwen is theRussell and Kimmy and those guys
Um, you know, I mean, that'sbull down the road, you know?
(06:36):
And if they can keep Max anda good job.
Um, you know, they're notfor drivers now, but five years
And so I think it's a greatYeah, that's one of the problems
moment is that some years theyyears they've got too many.
(06:59):
And right now there are too manyWho's looking really good in
They've got staff and Lawson andSo they're going to have to dump
get five blokes into four seats.
They even tried that a few yearsUm, when they had Liuzzi and
(07:21):
One, which was totally stupidAnyway, let's go back to the
Yeah, yeah.
But still a great point.
So, you know, I always lookyou know, it's just such a an
such a history, you know, andused to be about double the
(07:45):
you see today.
And they shortened it years andyears ago for safety reasons
basically.
Um, and because it's just, youit's just too hard to marshal
for safety and, you know, allAnd so, you know, again, it's
(08:07):
and it's, it's set in anAnd, um, every once in a while,
camera and there'll be a cameraexactly just how steep some of
are either going up or down.
And so, um, it's, it's just agreat, uh, classic racing
(08:29):
circuit.
And, um, and, you know, I've toJoe's point, I, I think this
race was always going to bekimi's.
Um, the way he was in practice.
Um, you know, George again, wasclose to Kimi most of the time.
(08:49):
Um, and then he had apparently,but some sort of a battery issue
slow down at the start, which isand send George off into the
And so, you know, this race washarvest it and deployed because,
(09:16):
to be an energy poor track as,And so we saw a little bit of a
think where it's, you know, whothan anything else, I think.
So to me, those were kind of theBut but you know, when Charles
there watching it and I thought,Kimi's going to win this thing
(09:42):
And, um, and sure enough, itonce he went into the lead.
So anyway, that was my take.
I have so much to say abouty'all's highlights and even the
hot topics.
Maybe we'll catch those again atthe full race review for me.
My highlight was actually IsaacHagar's ending spot from where
(10:05):
he started.
Considering all the things thatwe've talked about this race,
and hopefully we'll talk aboutas we debrief about the how the
teams landed or how the driverslanded.
I just thought it was quiteskill and how hard he worked to
to, I think it was P six.
(10:26):
He ended up.
And I know we.
I'm not in any way detractingI'm just thinking of a person
sophomore year and how hard thatWe talk about the Red bull
was really impressed by that.
(10:47):
I think that it was it's notbecause of all the other topics
that have happened regardingthat race.
It's kind of flown under theAnd so for me, that was the
It's an interesting point youBut then again, I my view on
that is that there are clearlyfour dominant teams and four
dominant castes.
That means, and therefore oneshould do that.
(11:12):
Um he did slightly better, butSo that's seven cars.
So he finished P6 um and then I,penalties and things that
lesser or greater extent.
But um, you know, yeah, he did asame thing about, um, I
(11:33):
the field, but he did a greatUm, and I think that, you know,
sometimes when people drivethrough the field, it, they are
someone like spa where you canovertake.
I don't see it as being such ayou did that at Monaco, you'd
(11:54):
you can't do that.
But I'm not I'm not criticisingI'm just saying that's more or
where he should have been.
But I don't think it was.
You know, I don't I wouldn't putUm well no, I'm not saying that
I'm, I'm definitely not sayingit's like a highlight that's
going to live, you know, fordecades.
(12:15):
I think that when we look at thereliability issues that have
been plaguing, it seems like allthe cars.
But I do I agree with you on soLet me say that first, that if
he was, he's in a Red bull thatis improving.
And if he wasn't able to harnessthat car, there would be some
serious questions as to histalent.
(12:36):
And so I do think that is thatAnd I agree that the group that
he should be in, which is reallya great segue to the front of
field discussion.
He should be playing in thewhere he started.
But I think that where I wasreliability issue and some of
(12:57):
about this deployment andplagued, and even Max didn't
happy with the with the car.
So that's Max, who is in a classI think when I think about
the second seat and how mentallytimes, going back to what we
(13:21):
how they manage drivers.
I think what I keep coming backconsistency in enough and
proving that this newAll the things are coming into
(13:42):
seat driver, be it Isaac in thisversus I think in the past,
have prevented him.
He's taking advantage of theIs he excelling, dominating?
Probably not.
But do I think he has theI think we it's a wait and see.
I would want to hope that heCan I leap in there?
(14:05):
I think you're right.
To a large extent you're right,crumble under pressure.
But, uh, if you look to whatAlex Albon, for example, did
there, he didn't crumble underpressure.
And the fact that Red bullridiculous thing to do.
I never understood why, justthey decided that they would,
(14:27):
to sell more drinks in Mexico.
Who knows?
I don't know why they decided onbecause because Alex showed that
stand up to the battering thatthe others didn't.
And it's true, they, they they,some of them were poor, very
poor.
Um, but, you know, in, in a lotit because they were thrown into
(14:52):
But you know, if they crumbledyou can blame them for it.
Um, but I don't know, it's, it'sbut I don't think we should say
seen people say, well, Isaac'sdriver Red bull have had.
I don't agree with that.
I think that Alex was better.
(15:13):
Um, now, in the end he wasn't,but he, you know, he got to a
point where he could have wonraces.
Um, he didn't in the end.
Um because things didn't turnout by Lewis Hamilton um when he
And you know, so I don't thinkwe should overplay what Isaac's
done.
I think as Isaac's clearly good.
(15:35):
But you know, is he I you wondersometimes I look at what Arvid
Lindblad did on his first visitin a formula one car to spa and
go wonder what he could do in aRed bull?
Oh yeah.
I don't think actually, Joe,we're disagreeing because I
would not say he's the bestdriver that's been in the second
seat.
I think that's one premature.
Two is that there are so manyI agree with you that Alex.
(16:00):
Alex.
His removal makes no sense tome, especially when you look at
the full chessboard that washappening.
I think there was things outsideorchestrated his departure.
So I think, yeah, we're agreeingI just think in this case,
looking at this race, looking athow he drove, considering where
we are in the season, what Redbull has been going through, I
(16:22):
just enjoyed seeing him makethat move.
I will say, though, this may bea philosophical difference, I
don't personally like to blameany of the drivers unless
they're doing somethingegregious.
I'm very much of wanting to be athink that they.
Especially now more than ever.
(16:42):
Social media has allowed you.
You are allowed because you're.
You're an insider in theYou have so much access and
But I think as a person like me,preponderance of people, we
And to sit there and blame andfeel very strongly against and
(17:03):
Is that because there's so muchshow up onto that grid?
And I truly respect them, thatI'm like gonna stand firm and be
I'm willing to point out andprovide critical feedback, but
still couch it as I'm not thedriver.
(17:24):
I don't have the fullinformation and I respect them
too much.
I feel like it's arrogance on mySo I guess that's just a little
I don't I think, I think, Iis, and I'm not blaming them
You know, you'll even hear meoccasionally defending Lance
(17:45):
stroll and saying that Lancestroll is has got tariff because
he does.
And underneath it all, he doesBut you know, the job of, of, of
being a Formula one journalistis, is not putting your own
ideas in.
It's looking at the facts.
And the facts are very simple.
The facts are.
(18:06):
And whether, whether you canafterwards, but the facts are
rarely in a twenty four raceThey reflect the level at which
that's the way I look at it.
(18:27):
Um, so I'm not you know, I whendrivers make ridiculous
mistakes, yes, I'll say that'sridiculous.
But, um, you know, I agree within a league of their own.
And you've seen.
You can see that when you whenyou see some of the other things
that, you know, otherchampionships around the world,
the level at which these guysare operating, operating is so
(18:48):
much higher.
Um, and this is why they'reothers aren't there.
And when one of them, when a,a failed Formula one driver goes
know, he's still a star.
So I think we should always bearUm, but, you know, there's a lot
of other things that get in theway.
(19:09):
You know, there's national bias.
You only have to look at thefootball thing, you know, to see
national bias in operation, youknow, um, and people just
getting upset because their teamgot beaten.
Um, and there's a lot of that informula one and I find that very
ugly and unpleasant, the kind oframpant nationalism.
Um, I really don't like it.
(19:30):
And uh, uh, and I will fightif you fight against it, you get
your face on a gravestone andYeah, I think that especially
when it comes to you, I thinkthat you have said it exactly
right.
You are a journalist.
And so therefore you have toLike, I just think the seat that
(19:56):
occupy is non-journalist with ain the discourse, because I do
clue, sitting there andattacking people and are just so
And I think that was a premisethat we had when we started the
(20:17):
podcast, was that we weren'tgoing to be those type of
individuals.
I know I'm kind of speaking forUm, that was actually John's
about the drama of.
Yes, it is about drama, but it'sIt's talking about this sport
with honesty and intellectually.
(20:40):
Which means we'll go down theThis is supposed to be about the
Um, and that's why we were soglad that, Joe, you've been
doing these episodes with usbecause you bring an insight
that I think that is so valuableand helps us to see it with more
foundation.
And you're, you're again insideand knowledge and history, which
(21:05):
that you are having theseUm, okay.
So all that said, I know that weI'll tell you and maybe we this
longer than it was.
I personally was so heartbrokenas to such a race that is so
classic and one that I lookforward to.
(21:27):
I felt this year was absolutelyI was just, I was so not
I mean this again, not tobut it was not what I expected.
When I think about Spa, I thinkabout harnessing power, pushing
the car to the limit and seeingpeople do.
(21:48):
When we talk about theI usually sit with like eager
But as the race just continued,And it's not even like past
it all outright.
There was a level of feelinglike something was being
manufactured.
I know you were saying thatI questioned that I was going,
(22:12):
It's a this is the longest, oneof the longest, if not the
longest track that we have inthe year.
Why do we need to have a fullcourse yellow happening for a
Marshall, which I respectsafety.
But do you see like it just.
I mean, maybe that was just me,but I didn't feel this
enthusiasm.
The the the thing we should noteYou don't see the whole track,
(22:38):
So maybe, maybe there were otherthings going on that that kept
that VSC going as long as itdid.
But if that was the case, whyUh, you know, we should have to
The TV is there to tell us whythings happen and, uh, and
because we didn't see anythingelse.
(22:59):
It was therefore very suspiciousUm, but, you know, I, I also
like to believe that officialsdon't do that sort of stuff
anymore.
They certainly have done in theback in the day.
Uh, I'd say probably the lastever questioned, um, the way
(23:25):
if there is any interventionbefore then though, there were
this is being.
You know, this is being messedUm, and, you know, I will always
say when I have suspicions ofthese things, I. And I think
it's down to really, ultimately,whether you respect the, the way
(23:47):
that the, uh, the federation isrun.
And I think that that is, thatbit by some of the messes we've
Um, that faith in that kind of,uh, the way race administration
is run is, um, is waning alittle bit.
(24:11):
And that's not a good thing.
That's not a good thing at all.
I think we need to have totalAnd you see this in other,
you know, um, and you seestrengthen their, um, people's
processes because too manywhat's all this about?
Why does that happen?
(24:33):
Um, so, you know, we can, we canthis is odd.
It's for them to fix it.
And if they don't fix it, itIt's, it's very simple.
Um and how do you fix it?
Well, that's again, it's theirUm, but you know, I think that's
something worth mentioninganyway.
(24:53):
Yeah.
And I would add to that, youthere watching the race and it
was not the most exciting race.
Let's just go there.
And, um, and I wondered how muchof that was just due to the new
rules.
And we still haven't gotten ourarms around how to make these
(25:15):
rules work on a track thatdoesn't lend itself to, uh, a,
a, a rule set that that is sodependent on actually touching
the brakes and generatingelectricity.
You know, and, um, and to me, itwas really sad because I got the
(25:35):
feeling that there were justsome of those corners that were
just not the corners that theyused to be, you know what I
mean?
And, um, and because the driverswere not in a position to go
through, you know, flat out ornearly flat out, you know, were
they flat going through EauRouge?
Where are they flat goingGoing through like pouhon and
(25:59):
places like that where you justkind of gasp at how fast they're
going.
And, um, and so to me, I thinkit as well.
Um, you know, and I can I askYeah, I mean, I, I don't mean
I guess that neither of you hasYeah.
(26:21):
And so the key point I think is,and this is why I, I go to spa
with the same level of sort ofexcitement as you're talking
about.
But when you actually go there,When you go and see it, it is
terms of because TV, as we'veeverything out and makes it look
(26:47):
don't see the same level.
I don't get, you know, I neverfind a race, um, boring because
it's always exciting becausewhat those guys are doing in the
spaces they're doing it in isalways impressive.
And spa is particularly Okay.
You know, it wasn't the greatestI accept that, but it's still a
(27:11):
And that's why I think I'm moreenthusiastic about the race than
perhaps because I know whatthey're like.
Well, I guess I wasn't.
I'm not saying that I expectI don't expect wheel to wheel in
I think it's when you haveI mean, I haven't watched nearly
And that's not trying to callBut I'm saying is that even
(27:36):
But I'm saying is when you I doAnd so when you watch the
just like when you talk aboutdo agree that the TV flattens it
over the years, there wasI guess the word was dynamic
(27:59):
the human, of the machine overAnd I will say, I've done the
high quality sim of the BelgianGrand Prix, and it wasn't until
I got into that sim that I went,oh crap, now I understand what
they're harnessing, especiallywhen you're going up that Eau
Rouge and you're going throughthose turns.
Your memory.
(28:20):
I remember the first time I didway does it go?
Like, am I going to crash intoand I, I think that's part of
our drivers, because it wasn'toh, and I'm not even doing it
Like literally, I can push aI felt like this year it was
(28:46):
So maybe I don't maybe theIt just wasn't as exhilarating
push, because I feel like thethe drivers, and maybe that goes
But here's the question I have.
I've been reading that, yes,there were times where the
(29:07):
drivers were literally fullthrottle, but the car, because
of the energy management system,was not giving them the full
power.
They would feel that drop.
And it was also inconsistent.
And I thought, well, when weto the edge.
If I'm the driver and I'mlearning this car, it's a new
(29:29):
rig and each time I'm taking thelap, there isn't a consistency
of the car, even if it's doingsomething I disagree with or
dislike.
Yeah, they're probably trying toDo you see where I'm.
I'm wrestling with guys.
Yeah, I know you, but you can't.
You can't.
I don't think you can.
What you can do is say, youYou can say the regulations are
(29:53):
What we know is that the driversthe absolute maximum.
Okay?
If at times they can't drive itas fast as the car might be able
to do if the configuration wasdifferent.
In other words, if you haveelectric power at certain
points, you'd be able to domore.
But if you did that, you'd loseUm, you know, you can't.
(30:16):
I don't think it's right toUm, I don't think it makes it
are driving it to the maximum.
So okay, they can't all be flatevery corner, but that's always
(30:39):
You know, you, you drive withThe question is whether or not
are the right machines or areof the game?
And the FIA kept on insistingaway from one hundred percent.
We're not going to say fiftyWe're not going to change it.
We're not going to change.
You're not going to change it.
Even when people told them thisSo who's to blame for that?
(31:04):
Is that, uh, is that the sportIs that a federation that's to
I don't know the answer to that.
You know, the teams obviouslynot, you know, the FIA was told
didn't change it.
And now when there is a reactionin the finest traditions of, oh,
(31:28):
gee whiz, look, the horse hasbolted.
Let's shut the door.
Um, that's what they're doing.
So one has to question the not,whole, but the people who came
sport what it is today.
And so that's really theUm, at the same time, you know,
(31:51):
it's still exhilarating andexciting stuff no matter where
it is.
And particularly on a place, awhy I think, you know, when you
you see, you know, if you try torun out of breath.
And I don't know if you'reOh my word.
(32:14):
Yeah.
Isn't it?
Yeah.
But but that will still not giveyou anything like the G forces
and the bottoming out and goingup the top and the whoa over the
top.
You know, you can't get thatYou won't get that.
And, and, you know, even ifyou've got a seat belt
(32:36):
tightening device, all theseother things that they have on,
you know, to simulate brakingand stuff.
But I think, I think we justAnd this is why I say people
they can, because they are justdifferent perspective when you
And I know you and I knowthere's no time, there's no
money, whatever.
(32:57):
Well, if anything, that goes toa different point that I walked
away from though, Joe, I'm notdisagreeing with anything you
said.
I think that this race justthis decision to go to the
we've gone to was not ideal.
And I think in the long termI think the other side, going
(33:24):
that for those people who makeit's not even an easy schlep to
I just had to turn on the TV andlike, okay, this is a good race.
Could it be better?
Yes, I'm a little bored.
Yes, about lap twenty two, I'msome of the strategic things
(33:50):
could be even better, right?
I thought to myself, if I werean American or I was someone
from a different part of theworld, I paid the money to come
out here.
Is this the most dynamic race?
I would just be like, wow, thesecars, this power, this, I don't
know.
I mean, I literally don't knowBut listening to you, maybe that
(34:11):
calculation for me if I hadBut I just think that for the
sport, the regulations are notshowing.
What I think we talk about isthat this is the most amazing
sport.
Okay.
Yeah, I think I think the way toto answer that is if you look at
(34:33):
the rising audiences at everyrace, the crowds are record
breaking.
Now at every race.
The British Grand Prix beat theThe Belgian Grand Prix beat its
All the rest of this stuff.
When you when people go toactually see a race, they become
fans.
They become serious fans.
You know, the first time they goto a motor race, they get
hooked.
(34:53):
That's one point.
The other point is that we arestill in the first year of this
regulation set.
Okay.
Mhm.
It was perhaps overly ambitiousand perhaps they should have,
um, moderated it before theseason began.
But you know Stefano DomenicaliSo by the end of the year, he
(35:21):
One, the genius Formula Onemost of these problems.
Now, I'm not sure if that's onecertainly a year from now I
conversation because althoughdeployment and this and that
the technology will have movedAnd, um, and because that's
(35:45):
brains are working on how do weAnd so we are still, you know,
we are what are we six, four,four, four months into a new
championship?
And it's easy to criticize, uh,because there are things that
aren't right.
And we're at circuits where thatAnd I would go to the
(36:05):
and I doubt you'll hear veryanything because they won't have
Right?
And in some of the tracksissue has disappeared already.
So, you know, we are we areAnd but I think we need to be
you know, where, how muchIt's not in trouble at all.
(36:30):
It's doing better than ever.
But it can be better.
It can always be better.
And that's why when people askseason, I always say the next
view, the reality.
Um, and you know, I, I'm not oneof these people who goes, oh, of
course, nineteen seventy six wasmarvelous because, you know,
(36:51):
it's not my idea of it was it'sa bit like a Woody Allen movie,
you know, you forget all the youforget all the bad things about
the good old days and justremember the nostalgia, you
know?
Um, and I think that's wrong.
I think we should appreciateof it and look ahead.
But there we are.
(37:12):
Should we, should we go back to.
I think that would probably beOur audience is probably like,
okay, get to the get to the racereview.
So let's talk about that middleAnybody that stood out.
Uh, yeah, I thought, I thoughtI thought Lindblad did a very
Um, and I thought that, uh,Well, yeah, I bought a letter.
(37:36):
I mean, he was he was very good.
Um, yeah.
But basically, I think, youknow, those people who are, if
you like, outperforming theircars is what I'm always looking
for.
You know, I'm not saying thatoutperformed the car, but he
been under a lot of pressure.
(37:57):
And, you know, he's, he's risenSo I think that's very good.
I think Lindblad's been reallyBut he was particularly fast um
loving doing it.
And, and also the fact that hethe way around, which hasn't
(38:17):
Liam's been really good.
So, you know, there's all thatI thought, um, that that
remarkable for a young guy.
Um, and I think that it's reallyother talents there who are, are
And we will maybe we'll see ayear on the driver market.
(38:42):
But I think, you know, a placelike spa is where you really can
a driver is input can make adifference.
Um, and I think that's whatof the older guys, you know, uh,
the old drivers are just as goodThey're not young drivers start
(39:03):
understand the other things inYou know, they take risks that
Older drivers are better becauseUm, say they're better old
and therefore can balance outUm, but you know, it doesn't
scheme of things.
They probably don't crash aspoints and that's what matters.
(39:26):
So that's why so many of themBut you know, I'm a great
believer in, in um, I don'tthink you should necessarily
have an age limit for formulaone drivers.
But on the other hand, Isometimes wonder, because, you
know, Bernie Ecclestone used tosay there's no natural wastage
anymore.
In other words, people don't getSo the turnover is slower.
(39:48):
Um, in the driver world, whichwas the ultimate ultimately
cynical, of course, but actuallythe truth.
Um, and so I, I don't know theIt's a good one isn't it?
Um, but as long as peoplebring home the points, I guess
Um, but I'm not always convincedby some of the middle ranking
(40:12):
ones.
I think we'll see some of themI think this year maybe.
Hey, Joe, I've got a questionbecause what you said is it
actually made me kind of wonderif you think about Audi for a
second.
You have a highly experiencedyou have a young talent who's
(40:34):
I think in Bortoleto, you know,car that that Kimi has had to
But he's turned in some prettystrong performances really, I
think over the last season and ahalf.
And it makes me wonder if likeinteresting one two punch in
(41:00):
Hulkenberg has been verydeveloping that project.
And and, you know, HulkenbergBortoletto who seems to be
the the terrific stuff, but helead a team and develop the car.
(41:24):
I think that's what you'reAnd if you I mean, again, to
this, we're seeing thatKanaan at McLaren has just hired
Right.
Rosenqvist and they've dumpedLundgaard, you know, and
Lundgaard is clearly a risingtalent.
(41:44):
Now, we already know that Patovery technically minded.
So that the thought process thatthat is going on with Kanaan is
get the guy to know how to fixthe car, and then put Pato in it
to drive it faster than theycan.
Um, and I think that's reallySo if you have a young guy who
(42:05):
knows how to set the cars up,ultimately results in the young
Um, so yeah, there is thatSo, um, whether, whether it'll
work in, in the case of thearrow McLaren team, I don't
know.
Right.
(42:25):
But it is, you know, it's acannon to do, I think.
Yeah.
I mean, because if Lundgaardgoes off and and races for for
Ganassi and is, you know, notfar behind Palau, um, the other
teams may have a great deal oftrouble catching up with them
even.
I mean, you know, the wholething is dominant already isn't
(42:46):
it.
So yeah, yeah.
I mean, um, you know, and Ipersonality issues with
other drivers or something.
I, I, I've heard whispers ofUm, but I, I met, I met both of
(43:07):
asked you in, uh oh, in Austin.
I had a long chat with both ofI was impressed by both of them.
I thought, whoa, you know, forare smart guys.
They're clever.
They're not no fast bimbos.
Um, these guys are quick.
I mean, seagulls, not as quick,but he's a very intelligent
young guy.
(43:28):
Uh, and I was very impressed byto be, uh, have everything sort
But again, it's a little bitI met him and I thought Ferrucci
sometimes he was a lunatic onUm, but his wife, uh, I find a
(43:50):
you have to have, you know, highwhat they're doing.
Right.
And I think that's, you know,wasn't expecting when I met
Austin, I wasn't expecting themand able to express themselves
And that really was.
It was an interesting educationYeah.
(44:13):
Um, but if you talk to the youngguys in, in formula One, um, and
it's difficult, I know it soundsweird, but actually getting time
with these guys is really hardthese days because of all the
things.
Actually sitting down and havinga sensible conversation with
them is not as easy as it usedto be.
But, you know, I've known Kimicoming up, and that's a good
(44:38):
And he's just an exceptional,um, has an exceptional brain, an
exceptional, um, ability to copewith everything.
Ollie Bowman's a little bit thevery bright switched on.
Um, and again, because he was,he went through a reserve driver
phase.
Um, that's when you can reallyget to meet them and when the
(44:59):
press is not on yet, you know,and you can actually build a the
relationship with them, whichyou don't get the chance of
later on.
Um, because of just the way theSo, um, you know, I think it
respecting what the drivers areUm, we should always respect
(45:22):
where they are.
Is, is remarkably impressive.
Yeah.
Um, and, uh, you know, it's sowell, this guy's a waste of time
you waste your time or not.
And, uh, and I really try to So.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(45:43):
Totally fair.
I just want to go back to thegenerational discussion you guys
had.
I just want to chime in on that.
I think listening to that, it'salso a good business principle
that having multiple generationsof people together, I think
really is a healthy workingdynamic because it helps in
(46:03):
avoiding groupthink.
You have the experienced peopleand wisdom coming together.
So I think it's actually verysmart of Audi to have made that
match up.
I remember when they did it, INow, are they at the front of
Not yet, but I think that theyand utilize the fact that they
(46:30):
one who's got that youth and oneSo is there anybody else in the
back of the grid that you wantto talk about before we sign off
today?
The only thing I'd say thatjust quickly, and that is, yes,
is having a big new car.
Okay.
I mean it won't be necessarily aeffectively a new car.
(46:54):
The team reckons it will bewhich means they're only two
That's what you've got to bearSo don't expect them to be
challenging for victories nextweek.
They will be challenging fortwelfth or fourteenth place on
the grid.
That's the very best they canSo, you know, just there's a lot
(47:14):
A lot of people saying, yeah,but just wait till the new Aston
arrives.
I'm just telling you the newset the world on fire.
Probably right.
Yeah.
And we don't know whetherthey're correlation tools are
any good because they're stillusing some of their tools date
back to the days of Jordan GrandPrix.
And so you know it really is.
Yeah.
(47:35):
But Newey was saying when hefirst got there he was like oh
my goodness.
You know we you know yeah weBut our tools are terrible.
And um, and I know yeah, he'sbeen spending a year and a half
fixing that.
Um, but I, I view this car asAston Martin if it comes.
Right.
And they go to twelfth place.
(47:57):
That that's a win for thoseUm, because with a little bit of
Yeah, I know, I know, but youspend it, you look at how much
and what they, their ambitionswas being achieved before they,
(48:18):
don't think that's quite right.
But um you know, I think it's avery good example of the fact
that money won't fix things inFormula One.
It helps.
And if you, it's how you use theAnd that is, you know, that is
And you can go through theOne and show examples of people
(48:42):
and absolutely bombed becausementality, structure, whatever
And there are different reasonsUsually a lot of it is down to
People just turn up thinkingthey're better than they are and
they get nasty lessons that theydon't like, and often run away
and weep quietly after beinghumiliated publicly.
(49:06):
So yeah, this is something that,building teams and having
And this is why when you hearhear racing drivers talking
fantastic and the people back inNow, a lot of people do think,
(49:27):
that's vitally important.
Exactly.
I mean, so first off, theaudience has not seen my face
that even though you and I, Joe,have had moments of debate, I'm
actually nodding my head eightypercent of the time that you're
talking.
Uh, but I again, I think thatthink that the only person of
(49:52):
If you're failing to understandyou don't realize it.
If you are a highly intelligentthat team because they're the
They're the reason you're safelyThey have so many in-race
moments, but pre and post race,making sure that you can go out
(50:12):
there and focus on your job ofextracting the best out of that
car.
So yeah, my hackles got upbecause I was like, no, just
like, I don't want to see peoplevery ignorantly attacking
drivers.
I think there are teams thosewill say it's largely because of
little bit over a year and atalked about how hard these
(50:38):
sacrifice, why the bonus moneythese staff members of this team
gets out there.
And when I really sat andof a superficial knowledge.
But that was a great educationconversation for me, and I know
that it was for so much of ouraudience.
(50:59):
The other thing I will say,though, is I think it's
important that we just realizethat what you said about the
high intelligence of thesedrivers is that is something I
think, hopefully all of us whocome to the sport seek to have
like that.
We do think about this as what Ihope people would see in this
(51:20):
conversation is we're not justsimply going, oh, they ended up
here and this was the drama, butreally trying to understand
fully why did this happen andhow do we how do we appreciate
the people that are putting onthis show and putting in the
work?
Like it's an entertainment, butYeah, I think the big factories
(51:41):
have a thousand people workingthere.
It's not just the driver, youknow, and they're just think
about think about what in theworld do our thousand people do
to put two cars on a track everytwo weekends?
When you start to think aboutYou just go, okay.
Think of the level of detail.
Think about, you know, there'llbe two hundred of those people
(52:03):
who are doing things that don'twork just to find out they don't
work.
You know, there's value inYeah, exactly.
And, and there are so manyto this sport.
It's fascinating and it'sIt changes all the time.
But it is it's astonishing.
And you know, you can't justis finding out now.
(52:27):
You can't just turn up with aton of money, think you're going
to throw together a team andbecome competitive.
You know you're not.
And if you tell people you are,they're going to be
disappointed.
So, you know, it's all aboutmanagement of expectations as
well.
You've got to manageAnd a lot of Formula One teams
are not good at managingexpectations.
(52:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's not just formula OneNo kidding.
Well, on that note, I'm going tomanage expectations, which is we
said that we would respect theday jobs.
And those are calling for atSo we need to get going.
Joe, we hope that you continueconversations as you do your
(53:13):
just really grateful to have youSo on that note, I look forward.
I enjoy every minute of it.
It it it allows me to it allowsme to effectively to talk to the
fans because you're askingquestions.
I mean, you're asking questionsof a fan and Dick is asking
(53:33):
questions of someone in theindustry, but outside Formula
One.
And, and I get it.
And I like to answer thosequestions because it helps me to
understand what people arethinking.
And it also helps me to explainideas about, oh, maybe I should
an interesting point.
(53:54):
You know, so there's a value inOn that note, um Jsbmb.
We talked on a few of thiseverybody should make sure that
be a subscriber.
Yeah, I love it.
Every good stuff in there.
I've got to get going guys.
So I look forward to our nextOkay, friends, what did you
(54:21):
Drop me a line via email.
Sabrina at Two Guys, a girl andCan you help us out?
If you haven't already, pleasetake a moment to follow us and
give us five stars on yourfavorite podcast app, as well as
share this episode with other F1fans.
We know our growth is because ofyou and the guys and I thank
you.
(54:41):
And with that, let me say we'lllistening in because we're just
John, Dick and me.
Sabrina, thanks for listening.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!