Lando Norris won in Hungary. The tarmac failed again. And Oscar Piastri lost his race, and nearly his cool, in a blue flag battle with Carlos Sainz. Dick also breaks down just how narrow a Formula 1 setup window really is, and why temperature, air density, and even a passing cloud can swing lap time more than most fans realize. But the conversation that mattered most wasn't about any of that. Bahrain can't hold its own Grand Prix this year, so it's paying Malaysia to host it instead. Sabrina and Joe couldn't agree on what that means for what a Grand Prix actually is.
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(00:03):
Hey friends, thanks for takingtime to listen in on a
conversation.
Dig.
Joe Seward and I had about thetwenty twenty six Hungarian
Grand Prix.
McLaren won the tarmac, hadlost his race and very nearly
(00:23):
with Carlos Sainz.
Dick broke down just how narrowthe setup window really is when
temperature and track conditionsshift underneath every team all
weekend long.
But the conversation that tookover the back half of this
episode wasn't about Hungary atall.
Bahrain can't hold its own GrandMalaysia to host it instead.
(00:44):
Joe walked us through the money,As you'll hear, Joe and I landed
Before we get to ourconversation, I need to ask, can
you help us out if this showadds value to your F1
experience, please take a momentto follow us and give us five
stars on your favorite podcastapp.
(01:04):
Share this episode with other F1That's how people find us and
it's how we keep growing thiscommunity.
Hope you enjoy our conversation.
All right gentlemen, ouraudience doesn't have any clue
why we're already laughing, buthopefully it lets them know that
we really enjoy getting to havethis time talking with one
(01:26):
another and that, you know,we're just turning on the
microphone after a bit oftalking and they just get to
listen in.
Hence the reason I say listenUm, we're chatting today about
the Hungarian Grand Prix and Iam really looking forward to
y'all's thoughts.
So let's just get started withDick, you want to get started?
(01:47):
Yeah.
First of all, I thought this wasthe Hungaroring, because of its
And so you didn't see a wholedrivers, you know, sitting there
whatever they needed to do.
(02:07):
Instead, they just kind of wentAnd it was just fun to watch.
And I thought it was a much moreSpeaking as a, as a guy, that's
a as it's all about being a pureracer.
Um, and so I thought it wasI thought Max sending it and
turn one and passing two cars atone spot.
(02:29):
Um, that was brilliant.
Even Max thought that it was aUm, you know, it was just fun to
Um, that race.
I really, really, truly enjoyedUm, I thought Lando did a very
You know, they've got a car nowit's still not very nice to
(02:53):
And so, um, it was nice to seeMcLaren in a position to win,
where you just kind of thought,yeah, these guys look pretty
strong.
Um, I don't know what happenedThey just never like in the very
make their last run, they justThey could not improve and
(03:18):
really a surprise.
And I don't know that there'sWell, I never saw an explanation
Um, but anyway, it's just, youthoughts, but overall, I, I
good fun to watch.
What about you, Joe?
Well, I thought it was aUm, the Hungaroring is like
(03:39):
almost like Monaco without thehouses and without, to be
honest, without the elevationchanges, there's a little bit of
up and down, but there's not alot.
Um and it's just a very, veryI don't, I mean watching the F3
They were wild because, youknow, these guys know that
(04:00):
they've got one chance to getthings done.
And, you know, obviously after ado it again.
But they were completely wild.
Um, because you know that that'sSo qualifying is really McLaren.
I think the car very much suitedI don't think McLaren is really
(04:23):
I think that Mercedes sufferedThe track was a disaster.
They're re re tarmacked a wholeDone it very badly.
And the FIA had passed it justI don't get it.
Don't understand.
They're supposed to beprofessional track inspectors
(04:45):
and they're letting these thingstwice in five races or whatever
it is.
It ain't right.
It ain't right.
There's something they're notYou know, tarmac is a science
It's been studied endlessly.
You can make tarmac to doWhy can't they get it right?
Um, and, you know, and itUm and less so the race because
(05:11):
you know, gluing stuff to theBut it was at the beginning,
the place and there were newIt just wasn't very clever.
Um, so, uh, and the race weekendAntonelli really suffered from
Friday, uh, to Fred Vesti.
(05:33):
I think that put him behind aHe caught up, but then in the
Um, but, you know, I think hereally suffered as a result of
that.
And Ferrari was yeah, you'reIt was just a bit wishy washy
Um, nothing particularlyIt's nice to see McLaren.
I thought Oscar did a very goodAnd he got wildly and
(06:00):
Carlos Sainz and basically lostmomentum, but his cool a little
And making Oscar Piastri loseUm, you know, because he's, you
himself, he's almost horizontalNothing sort of gets him going.
(06:23):
And you know, anyway, apart fromplenty of action.
I thought the racing balls wereUh, Red bull were okay.
Max was Max as ever.
Um, I thought Audi did a veryAnd, uh, and then you had the
(06:43):
about where I expected it to be.
Um, Williams had a bad weekend,which made Aston Martin look
good.
Um, But the Williams wasabsolutely not built for that
racetrack.
So I think it'll be, you know,Hungaroring and Zandvoort and
(07:05):
have to take into account.
You can't just rewrite thesaying, now look at this.
McLaren's back on top.
Let's wait and see.
I think at Monza they'll beYeah, I I'm glad you're bringing
Both of you have brought up somedefinitely discuss with you
(07:30):
about McLaren, that's the mostI had that question of is this
And to hear you both.
I'm wondering now for those whohave asked that question.
What leads you?
Is it the track itself, theseexperiences that you just said
(07:50):
that tells you like historywise, or is there something
about what you saw, the carsperformance that makes you think
that this isn't something whereMcLaren has now turned it all
around?
No, it's just it's always beenlevels of technology are so
(08:16):
close, um, circuit specificity.
So very long and complicatedUm is quite normal.
In other words, one car willjust do certain things better
than others.
Some do low speed corneringSome do high speed cornering
So, you know, and um, there areother things that, that weigh
(08:38):
in.
Um not so much as it used to bein the old days when you had
turbos and, and normallyaspirated engines, there would
be questions about um altitudefor example.
because that does a whole bunchand aerodynamics as well.
Temperature is something which Ithink is is a almost a mystery
(08:59):
to everybody.
How do you make the tires work?
Um, will your car work?
Will it not work?
Um, and that seems to confuseYou know, it'll suddenly change
might be two degrees different.
You know, it's just, um, a very,And if it was easy, we'd all be
(09:22):
You know, we'd all be being paidit all works.
But we don't.
Yeah.
I agree with you on that, Dick.
I wonder from your technicalperspective, like in as a racer
and your Stem background, wouldyou like to jump in before we
move on?
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, to Joe's point, theUm, and I always find it really
(09:48):
interesting where they they talkabout, you know, some cars
having a very, very narrow setupwindow.
Well, all the cars have a narrowIt's just that some are more
And, and by that, I mean, youknow, you have a temperature
change and your air density goesdown.
And if your air density goesdown, that's going to impact
(10:09):
your aero.
It's going to impact thethose kinds of things.
And if you have changeableconditions, it's going to make a
big difference in the way a carperforms from session to
session, let alone the wholeweekend.
And so a lot of it has to doreact and all that.
(10:29):
And I, I believe that right now,all that, they don't have the
would have had, say, at the endit's a hotter day today.
That means we have lost thisWe need to make some adjustments
before we even think about goingout because we're going to be
(10:51):
behind.
To start with, you know,And so I think I think that's
This is where the engineersreally, really earned their
money.
The other part is, is that Idon't know that there's any way
to predict.
I you know, Joe, you've probablyit, but as the temperature goes
(11:13):
itself, that is part of theIt starts coming up.
And so the track loses grip.
And so the engineers have to askbecause we missed something on
because the track is now slower?
You can and you can actually seeexample, a cloud passes over the
(11:39):
difference between sunshine andknow, half a second a lap and
But there are some other thingsJust to quickly add in there,
sort of onslaught of AI goingfollow, obviously, because they
(12:03):
And, and also, how does it work?
You know, a lot of people don'tlot of these engineers do.
So they can do all kinds of, ofthat weren't, weren't doable or
armies of people.
(12:23):
Um, and now AI can do stuff likeSo we'll have to see what that
But what it basically means isthat everything just gets closer
and more, more insanetechnically.
Um, now obviously we're at thedoes spread everybody out.
Um, but I think it won't be toolong before People begin to
(12:45):
close up.
I mean, I'm not sure aboutrest of them, Cadillac is now
As now the Aston have actuallyit's only a half decent car.
You know, we may have moreeverybody is is now more or less
(13:07):
I think that's the best way ofAston were completely out of
And that was disastrous really.
Joe, I have a question for you.
And just really curious.
We know that both the AstonMartin and the Williams are just
grossly overweight.
Right.
Um I heard that for the AstonMartin they're like they were
(13:29):
like thirty kilos over theminimum weight.
Um and Williams may have be evenmore and I find it fascinating
that and for our listeners, theymay find this very interesting,
but you really want to be quitea bit underweight with then
putting them in ballast into thecar and they move the ballast
(13:52):
around front to rear, uh,depending on the nature of the
circuit.
Um oh yeah.
You want to expand on that andYeah.
Well yeah, no, that's entirelyI mean, every, every kilo
overweight costs you, costs youtime.
And the reason it costs you timeis that, you know, a car is
(14:13):
heavier, has more momentum, goesaround a corner and, and
stresses the tyres more, forexample.
I mean, there's lots of otherexplanations, but basically, you
know, moving a heavy object, um,is more difficult than moving a
light object.
It's as simple as that.
So if you can then move theyou know, they have, they have
(14:34):
places for different occasions.
Um, that helps them a lot.
But to get to that um is veryAnd so yeah, it's true.
I think the Red Bulls have beenAnd that's one of the reasons I
think that um, that they've beenstruggling is.
But now it's a matter of sortUm, and you know, we'll see and
(14:56):
there'll be a lot of lessonsbeing learned to for next year
too.
So, um, we could see a completein the, in the pecking order.
Um, next year it's, there's noso new that's, you know, I think
that the Mercedes engine willaccording to um the FIA, uh, the
(15:24):
Um you know.
Right.
Go figure.
Well it isn't, but you know,better by all accounts, but the
very odd that whole um the waysort of upgrades to the engine
(15:46):
nothing when it's clear that Redto be on the pace of Mercedes.
Yeah.
And that makes Mercedes playingThat's that's one thing that you
Um they might have been notusing their engine to the
fullest extent in the start ofthe year, because they knew that
(16:06):
they might be able to gain somemore.
Um, uh, you know, that's one ofthe things that happens in this
game.
You know, you have sandbagging,you have, you have, it's a bit
like the, the whole, uh, balanceof performance rubbish that
exists in the World EnduranceChampionship.
You know, everyone's desperatelytrying to play the system so
they get a better thing for whatthey need.
(16:28):
And mainly what they need is toSo they all pretend that it's
terrible until you get to LeMans and suddenly the whole
order changes.
I mean, it's not my kind ofIt's.
I just old things bent and ISo there you are.
Yeah.
Oh, the other thing is, in Worldactually a rule where
(16:49):
talk about this.
Oh, how wrong is that?
Well, yeah.
How interesting.
I had no idea.
Yeah.
If you talk about it, you getget penalties, you get fines,
Well, we wouldn't want theAnyway.
(17:14):
Yeah, it's that kind of stuff.
It just just makes a mockery ofIt's a bit like reversing the
top ten in formula two andformula three.
What's the point?
Right?
What's the point?
You just get some bloke winningMhm.
And particularly at a race likeMonaco, where you might as well
just give the bloke the cupafter qualifying.
(17:35):
If he if he qualifies tenth he'swon It's necessary that, you
know.
Congratulations.
You won the lottery.
Yeah.
What is the point?
Yeah.
You know.
Yeah.
Okay, so maybe it looks betterIt doesn't, because there's
They just follow each otherBut some other races they, you
know, the fast guys being behindthe slower guys create a just
(17:57):
usually another safety car, thenanother safety car and another
safety car.
And of course anyone sneezes.
There's a safety car these days.
So there's a lot wrong with allthese sort of fiddles that, that
go on.
Um, but we're supposed to belet's go back to that, shall we?
Well, I want to go back toI think you touched on, which
(18:24):
Carlos and Oscar, specificallyCan we unpack a little bit about
Because I know during the race,a lot of commentary post-race.
There was a lot of commentary.
Help us understand, especiallythose of us who weren't watching
thirty years ago, were blueflags.
What's the history of blueWhy were they implemented?
(18:46):
What's the role of them and whatSo help people understand a
changed over time.
Okay.
Um, well, at the beginning ofpotted history of motor racing.
At the beginning of motorracing, they raced from city to
city.
That was too dangerous becausefive hundred mile course, and
(19:11):
by with a cart and getsSo then they went to big
So the circuits were likeseventy miles around, which is a
similar problem.
But gradually the circuit sizeAnd that meant you were lapping
Um, and when you were lappingpeople, you wanted to warn the
guys ahead that, um, that therewas a fast guy coming up behind
(19:33):
him.
So they didn't get in the way.
And basically that's where theNow, nowadays it's all to do
all the rest of it.
Technology has.
The drivers should know.
In fact, in a really good team,they will warn the driver that
such and such is coming upbehind him.
Um, particularly in qualifying,the way because Fred's on a fast
(19:58):
for getting in his way.
Now in the race that also shouldBut sometimes drivers are just
I remember back in the day, backcouple of as they get older,
They don't like being overtaken,winners in their day.
And one of the worst was ReneArnoux, a Frenchman, and he used
to get in everybody's way allthe time.
(20:20):
And it was like, oh, come on,Leave the sport.
If you're going to be like this,You know?
But there were others too, andthey were doing it because they
being in a bad car, you know,little bit of chaos in that too.
I think, you know, Carlos is ais a is a good guy to a large
(20:42):
extent.
But I think there's a little bitthe blue touch paper.
Um, he can, he can get quite umUm, anyway, there we are.
So I mean he got penalised forpenalised for it, but it did
(21:03):
And that shows you also youwas one point I think where
that was it.
He was gone from the race, youbattling for the lead.
That's how tight it is.
And and this is what I think newunderstand is just how, first of
(21:23):
all the time, and secondly, howlittle mistake puts you into,
or whatever, and it puts youUm, and it really is at such a
level that the tiniest thingsreally matter.
And I think Hungary showed usthat in a number of different
(21:44):
ways.
Mhm.
Yeah.
Listening to what you just said.
Oh, Dick, I don't want to cutin on the blue flags.
No, no, no. I, I was chuckling,though, when, when Joe brought
up, um.
René Arnoux because here's ahe was driving for Renault.
(22:05):
And um, one of the UScommentators who's actually a
Brit and I love this guy DavidHobbs.
He was a retired racing driverand was now, um, the color
commentator for the USbroadcast.
Pretty sure old hobo had athe race ever started.
Guy was hilarious and, um, stillaround, but he didn't call him
(22:29):
René Arnoux.
He called him Arnie Renault, andand and from now on, I can never
I always call him Arnie RenaultSo anyway.
Yeah.
Oh, man, what a guy.
(22:49):
Great guy.
Yeah, I, I did a lot of stuffhe was doing, I think it was
We must have done about tenAnd he was just him and Chris
Economaki and, uh, and peoplelike that.
It was, it was a wild time.
And, uh, yeah, there wereYou could misbehave a bit more.
(23:11):
I think I remember hobo standingthe finest traditions.
Um, and it was Varsha, I supposeBob.
Varsha.
Right.
And they wear the shirt and tie.
And then there were shorts andYou know, that bit didn't appear
Um, and it was hot in a lot ofYou know, this kind of stuff.
(23:31):
Um, but for some reason,when they're commentating.
I don't understand that either,Um, it's part of the traditions
Hobbes.
Hobbes was an absolute scream.
Oh yeah, I guess he's I guess heHe had a BMW dealership.
He lives, I think, in FloridaI haven't seen him for a while,
(23:53):
stateside and he's certainly hadI don't know if he's still got
His son, I think might be, um,Family might be running
I mean, there's a little bit ofthat in a number of racing
drivers who sort of settled inthe US.
Um, and, you know, sort of, I, Iwhich one's doing what.
(24:14):
So. Right, right.
Well he was a larger is a largerthan life character, that's for
sure.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Okay.
So I really actually, Joe, Ihope this is okay, but I have a
number of items that you talkedabout in this week's Jsbmb that
I'd love to have you go a littlebit further.
Dick, are you cool with that, orthe race enough?
(24:38):
Yeah, I think we did.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think so.
Okay.
So Joe, like first you alertedeveryone to the Malaysia Bahrain
Grand Prix.
Can you tell us a little bitI know I use the names inverted.
Why don't you give us the story.
Okay.
Well it's a story of money.
(24:58):
That's what it boils down to.
Bahrain has lots of money.
Malaysia has lots of money butdoesn't want to spend it on
motor racing.
Um, the reason Bahrain likesmotor racing is it's good for
the country.
The crown prince is who's alsois um is a huge racing fan.
Um and he's also the owner ofSo um or at least the country is
(25:24):
of the many, uh, sovereignbasically they can't have a race
um, some Americans cause someand, uh, and everything's a mess
at the moment.
In fact, if anything, it'sSo Bahrain was trying to get
back in on October the fourth,um, which is a, a date between
(25:49):
Baku in Azerbaijan andSingapore.
Now, if you look at a map, yougo from Baku to Bahrain to
Singapore.
It's doable.
Formula one can do amazingUm, in terms of getting stuff
in and out of Bahrain becauseyour head and nobody really
(26:10):
So basically what Bahrain saidis, okay, well, we'll pay for a
race somewhere else, which is anovel idea.
Why not?
Malaysia has a decent track.
Um, we used to race there a lot.
It's very hot, very hot, verymiddle of the jungle.
But officially, it wasn't in theOfficially it was in the sort of
(26:32):
But basically it was in thethey couldn't afford it.
They didn't get big enoughAnd when the Singapore Grand
really a sort of movement to,At the same time, the Malaysian
corruption mode for a period.
(26:54):
Uh, and that's not somethingparticularly interested in.
So at the end of the day, theMalaysian Grand Prix got
dropped.
Um, I have a nasty suspicionBahrain Grand Prix in Malaysia
I can see a Saudi Arabian GrandAnd I can see or sorry, in Abu
(27:17):
Imola and I think quite likelyplace in Portugal.
Um, am I in.
AM I in favour of that?
Not really, because I don't likebeing able to just turn up and
Grand Prix racing is about aabout each one being a big
(27:40):
renting the space elsewhere.
Having said that, having saidthat, in the history of the
sport, we had a Swiss Grand Prixand motor racing is banned in
Switzerland.
We had a Swiss Grand Prix inwhich is, you know, I haven't
the border it is, but it's notWe had Luxembourg Grand Prix in
(28:01):
Germany because at that time,uh, it was Michael Schumacher's
era, and they wanted to havemore than one race in each
country.
Now, they invented this thing, aget around that.
Um, but I can't remember thereason or other they had to use
(28:23):
Um, which they did twice And theWhat was that?
Um. Oh yes, of course.
The San Marino Grand Prix wasAnd that was on the Formula One
It's about seventy miles fromSan Marino, and San Marino is
basically a big rock thatsomeone left off a map once, and
(28:45):
they ended up as an independentcountry.
And, um, and, you know, it's,Kimi Antonelli actually lives
because it's fiscally, uh,Um, but so we have, there is a
(29:07):
Um, and that was basically a sopSo you could always have two
And that's sort of gone away nowfundamentally a, a half an
French Grand Prix as well.
So, um, you know, it's, not.
I think it's good to have eachnation having their own grand
(29:28):
prix.
But in this circumstance,Bahrain is willing to pay.
Yeah.
Okay.
But it's odd.
I mean, if you're a fan and, youand you don't know geography
and get someone explaining toMalaysia is going to be a bit
You know?
Mhm.
(29:49):
It mangles geography.
Okay.
So let me ask you this.
How did because I have thoughts,but I want to first make sure
I'm educating myself a littlebit.
And you have such great insightsHow does this type of
think or know?
Is this facilitated by FormulaOne, by liberty, bringing
(30:10):
together these two governments,these two entities like the race
promoters?
How does that happen?
Yeah.
Well, the Bahrain Grand Prix ispromoted by the state of
Bahrain.
So through through a number ofSo basically it's the
Uh, Malaysia is a governmentSo basically in the press
(30:33):
said that, you know, theto achieve this.
I'm sure they had.
I'm sure they had.
Whose idea was it?
Uh, probably I would think thatthe Crown Prince of Bahrain,
he's a very clever bloke, mighthave rung up Stefano Domenicali
and said, what about holding aBahrain Grand Prix somewhere
else?
(30:53):
Now it might be the other wayI don't know that that
particular case, but um, becauseyou have to also look at look at
the impact if a grand prixdoesn't happen.
So a Bahrain Grand Prix probablyhundred million dollars with all
generates around it.
(31:14):
Okay.
It's a lot of money.
You've got the Saudi Arabianwell this year, And the chances
anything in, uh, Abu Dhabi orWhere am I missing?
(31:34):
My brain's gone.
Um.
Qatar.
Qatar?
Yes, exactly.
Sorry.
I was thinking I was I had anIt was Doha, but I, I don't know
So basically we've got fourIf you add them all up and you
say, well that's four hundredmillion loss of revenue to
(31:56):
Formula One, that's a big pileof money.
What happens to that money?
It gets divided by two a littlebit slightly, not quite exactly
two, but basically formula onekeeps some.
The FIA gets some and the teamsget the rest of it divided
between them.
So you're talking about theLet's just do that uh eleven
(32:21):
Let's just say two hundredThat's a pile of money.
And so the teams stand to losethat money if these races don't
happen.
So they will do anything becausesome of these teams don't make
big profits.
Some do make big profits andothers will make big profits one
day.
But they're not they're notSo this is quite important
because if you've budgeted for Xamount and you're twenty million
(32:46):
short because there's four racesdisappeared, that's a serious
problem.
So I think altogether everyoneto have a race.
We'll go wherever we have to go.
And that's pretty much what'sBut we haven't had this.
You know, this happened duringRemember?
Um, yeah, the difference therebeing, um, that not all the
(33:07):
promoters paid, um, the money upfront, a lot of them did it and
a lot of them, you know, therewere races that came in like
Portugal and Turkey who couldn'tafford to pay at normal rates,
but they came in because theopportunity was there and they
could do a race that wasn'tdifficult for everyone to get
to.
With Covid restrictions, etc.
(33:28):
But having the races means yourIf you have enough of them, it
means that your tracksidesponsorship, your all these
deals that you have, um, can allhappen to a lesser or greater
extent.
So you're going to lose someAnd they did.
They all lost money in Covid.
But and you know, if you look atMcLaren, you can see that they
(33:50):
had to sell a whole bunch ofstuff and do a whole, a whole
bunch of things to keep the teamalive.
It was tough.
And, and so now the long termgoal is to have eleven teams
that are all wealthy that allmake, um, about the same kind of
level of commitment and aboutthe same kind of level of
performance.
(34:11):
We're sort of halfway throughthat process that was started by
Chase Carey.
And, and, um, Basically, we'veWe haven't got any teams looking
like they're going to go out ofbusiness because they get more
prize money.
Um, and they are restrictingof budget capping, which is a
(34:32):
I mean, Chase Carey was anextraordinary bloke because
these guys never agreed onanything.
You know, if you said, if yousaid, uh, it's a nice day today,
isn't it?
They some would argue it wasarguing it's Tuesday.
You know, it's that was formulaOne before Chase came along and
he just banged their headstogether until they finally
agreed.
They agreed to get rich.
(34:56):
How dumb is that?
Um, now the FIA is they're justwith its begging bowl out all
It's supposed to be doing um,fees for this, fees for that,
And then they have big partiesconventions in about road safety
(35:18):
impact on Formula One at all.
Um, but that's, you know,the FIA president gave him, um,
probably a big thing in BurundiYou know, I look, I got my FIA
see what value if they don't doI don't see what value the FIA
They seem to think they own it.
(35:40):
Um which legally speaking theyBut a long term lease is like a
hundred year lease of thecommercial agreements is like
virtual ownership because, youknow, it basically amounts to
ownership.
It's not.
But, um, you know, when it comesrenewing that lease in seventy
(36:07):
nothing for it.
Um, if you don't offer somethingcan't survive without formula
Yeah.
A question for you, Joe.
What is the impact of a teamsponsor or somebody who you come
up to him and say, hey, guesswhat?
We're not going to actually beI know you had a bunch of people
(36:32):
plan to be there as your guests,but we're going to host them in
Malaysia instead.
I mean, what what does thatI mean, it's collateral damage.
Yeah.
There's nothing you can do aboutIt's just I mean, there was a
in in Saudi Arabia where theyguests and everything planned
(36:57):
So, you know, what do you do?
You put them all on a plane andIf that's if that's what they
Um, is there a loss of impact?
Yeah, sure.
Your motivations will change.
The people you might want toinvite will probably change as
well.
Um, And so yeah, a lot ofBut then again, this is why,
(37:21):
genius, because they can justAnd, you know, and they have to
about the last two races of theAbu Dhabi ain't going to happen
if things are still flyingaround.
I mean, the other day, the otherhad sent missiles either side of
(37:46):
So you need to start worryingabout the Dakar Rally, the World
Endurance Championship that'salready gone.
Um, the World Rally Championshiparound in Saudi Arabia.
There's a whole bunch of thingsby this war.
And, um, and that impacts onAnd basically it means people
(38:11):
So the other impact.
The other impact, I'd say, isthat the Bahrain Grand Prix,
being in Malaysia, there's abunch of time zones in the way
there.
There's three thousand milestime zones will be different.
And so the viewing times will beIt'll be harder to watch it in
I think probably oh yeah.
(38:32):
Bahrain is usually an eveningnight, which translates into
the US, I think.
And it'll get more complicatedis, I don't know, probably four
I'd have to look it up, youBut yeah, but basically they're
(38:53):
much as they can.
And there are going to be someSure.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, the reason I askedand wanted to really have this
conversation is because one,I've seen so many people,
especially in the social making,very odd comments or just kind
of finding it comical, butlooking at it from a business
(39:15):
perspective or even from a legalperspective, I thought it was a
kind of a stroke of genius to dothis.
I know I hear you, Joe, and Ithink in my mind the analysis I
did was, look, this this is twodifferent frameworks.
One is a force majeure event.
And how are you mitigating theThis is why I wanted to have
(39:38):
gave a great analysis as to theand had to be weighed in to
possible solutions, because thecancellation of the race.
And one time we've already hadthat recently with Imola, with
the flooding, that was at adifferent time in the ride
cycle.
And when you talk about thefinancial impact, what I wrote
(39:59):
down in my notes as you weretalking is to lose every dollar
we're talking about under thecost cap era, in the early part
of a reg cycle, it will have acascading effect financially and
technologically, all alreadycomplaining.
Or at least I am about where theIf they lose that money even
How long does that delay inWhat we want to see as the
(40:24):
optimize the rules and adjust.
So that's just looking at itAnd the reason why I asked the
question of like, who all wasinvolved?
Because I wanted to understandpeople that were involved in
Because when I read this, Ithought, if this does become a
new form of business, a newbusiness model, like you just
(40:46):
said, Chase Carey, such agenius.
I actually thought in a worldcountries are divided, the World
coming together around sport andAnd I think Formula One does
that on a yearly basis,consistently bringing people
(41:07):
together.
But if we got governmentalentities or businesses even more
inside the sport collaboratinglike this.
Could that actually be anotherYou have other financial joint
I don't know if that's positive.
I see your perspective ofwealthy countries coming in to
(41:28):
not so wealthy countries andimpacting them.
But I thought, wow, this is aFormula one, formula one won't
money in it.
Right.
And I don't have a problem withI kind of have a problem with
You know, let's just say China,Prix's and they can't have two
(41:54):
doesn't want to have two GrandWhatever the reason, you know,
have a grand prix, you know,just about make it, but they
So what happens if the Chinese,you know, want a grand prix in
South Africa?
Is that a good thing?
Is that a bad thing?
Is. You know, I think itI think that fans are used to
(42:18):
one of the big events in theand to have them suddenly
world, um, with different titleswork for me.
I think that just just makes itIt's not in, I don't know, I
(42:38):
Is the goal of sport to make aswhere Formula One is at the
Or is it to, um you know, itgoes back a little bit to that
conversation we were havingbefore about formula two and
formula three.
If you make it, you know, theywant more sprint races now
because that gives biggernumbers.
Therefore they get more money.
If you, you know, do they wantI would hate that in Formula
(43:02):
And at the moment I thinkUm, Um, but, you know, is it
being driven just by money or dowe have to hang on to some
traditions?
Well, I mean, I guess I look atdriven by money, I probably have
If it's a primary or a majoritydriver, then I'm okay with it
(43:24):
because in some ways, again, nothaving sat here and thought
through everything, but afterlistening to your insight, I see
it as the problem where peoplesay, why are there three races
in America?
Why do we, as a proud Americanwe get three.
And other countries don't.
It's because we have thefinancial capacity and the
(43:46):
market interest that people arechoosing here.
If it could drive people toSouth Africa to what isn't it
Kyalami?
That's the old race track there.
Yeah.
And if I if the Americans werehelp bring in the infrastructure
that comes, and that could haveAfrican community and the
(44:10):
Do we not then move forwardThose are some of the questions
I know what you're saying.
It's maybe too pollyannaish andtoo positive, but I mean, I
guess I'm seeing it as couldthis be something that actually
brings people to a different wayof engaging?
Like even the World Cup we hadtechnically it was here in the
(44:33):
North America.
Everyone thought about most ofthe United States, but some
and Canada that had to have atourism and bringing those.
I think I think if we look, forexample, a very good example is
Rwanda.
(44:54):
Rwanda is being largely fundedhappen in Rwanda.
It's Qatari money because theaviation hub for Africa next
This is to promote Rwanda, etc.
etc. it's mainly that kind ofmoney.
If you look at the Brazilianof Abu Dhabi money in there.
(45:16):
Um, so it's already happening,races is slightly different, you
have an objection to it.
Not not every single time I Yes.
But I wouldn't like to see itSo if the I guess I'm trying to
(45:37):
So the fact that the money ishappening isn't the issue for
you.
It's more the name.
And I guess I'm saying is if thewhy not use the name and and
It's a new thing to sell.
I thought your other item in thejsbmb that actually kind of ties
into this.
I'll make make that clear.
You talked about, um, Patricksport because he saw a place
(46:06):
And if anything, you can talkBut I guess that's what maybe
made me think this isn't aterrible idea.
If the outside of a forceIf this becomes a new thing.
My personal opinion based offreserve the right to change my
So. Okay, Joe, go ahead.
(46:27):
Tell us a little about Patrick,because it was such a beautiful
tribute that you wrote inside ofthere.
Thank you.
That's nice.
Um, Paddy, as he was known, umweirdly, uh, he had the same job
He was an Autosport reporter andin the commercial side of the
(46:51):
sponsorship was just beginning.
So he was obviously mixed upwith Marlboro in the early
years.
And then he began to see otherBernie, there's a whole bunch of
things that Bernie didn't wantto do, and he wasn't interested
in merchandising.
You know, I once said to Bernie,look at all the money they're
making in America onmerchandising.
Why aren't you doing it?
And he looked at me and he went,And, Bernie, that's fine, but
(47:16):
you're making a whole bunch ofmoney.
He's leaving that you're notYou know, he wasn't interested
He wasn't interested in givingtop of the range globally.
There's nothing beats thePaddock Club in terms of
quality.
Um, the trackside signage.
What a mess that used to be.
If you look at old film of GrandPrix's, there were a thousand
(47:39):
little stickers all over theplace.
Paddy came in and he and it usedand that was a million quid.
Thanks very much.
Ching.
Take the money.
And you, you you make itexclusive because you cut down
the number of sponsors, youraise the prices and you make
the whole thing lookprofessional.
So Paddy had this way of makingAnd he developed them all.
(48:01):
He did all kinds of otherHe made the programs.
He did all the stuff BernieHe did the podiums.
Formula one podiums used to be aBut but Bernie.
But sorry.
Paddy made them.
Made them, uh, look good.
And Bernie and Paddy, they they,their relationship was quite
interesting.
One um, a lot of people thinkbut I don't think he was.
(48:25):
I think that Paddy was paying umdeveloping and Bernie was taking
except to agree to.
I'll take the money, you know,that, believe me.
Um who wouldn't?
Yeah.
But you know, what Paddy wasthe world of sport.
(48:46):
You know, he, there were lots ofsports who stole the paddock
Club idea from formula one lateron.
And so I think Paddy deserves alot more credit than he was
given.
In the end, he sold out for aAnd he's a classy guy.
You know, he he he boughtand, and um and did them up
(49:07):
stuff like that.
And so um I had a lot of timeHe didn't have much time for
journalists, but he did weirdly,he didn't mind me for some
reason.
So we always got on very wellI actually went to him once and,
and, uh, tried to get thecontract to create the
programmes with hisorganisation.
And he took me out to lunch andhe said, you don't want this
(49:29):
deal.
And I went, what?
He said, you don't want to doIt's just a waste of energy.
You won't make much money out ofJust do something else.
Make you know, don't do this.
And in the end, he flogged it toBut I think it was because I was
I was a small operator trying tobecome a bigger operator or
whatever.
And he just said, don't do it.
(49:49):
It's not it's not in yourSo I have a I had a soft spot
He was also, incidentally, oneI believe that I believe that,
especially when you tell usabout the longevity of your
friendship and professionalcareers.
I think it's great.
(50:09):
I have to say, I really havefact that you guys have made
And if anything, I look forwardto our next conversation,
gentlemen.
Yeah, looking forward to it asOkay, friends, what did you
Drop me a line via email.
Sabrina at two Guys, a girl andCan you help us out if you
(50:36):
moment to follow us and give uspodcast app, as well as share
We know our growth is because ofyou and the guys, and I thank
you.
And with that, let me say we'lllistening in because we're just
John, Dick and me.
(50:56):
Sabrina, thanks for listening.
Hey friends, thanks for takingtime to listen in on a
conversation.
Dig.
Joe Seward and I had about thetwenty twenty six Hungarian
Grand Prix.
McLaren won the tarmac, hadlost his race and very nearly
(00:23):
with Carlos Sainz.
Dick broke down just how narrowthe setup window really is when
temperature and track conditionsshift underneath every team all
weekend long.
But the conversation that tookover the back half of this
episode wasn't about Hungary atall.
Bahrain can't hold its own GrandMalaysia to host it instead.
(00:44):
Joe walked us through the money,As you'll hear, Joe and I landed
Before we get to ourconversation, I need to ask, can
you help us out if this showadds value to your F1
experience, please take a momentto follow us and give us five
stars on your favorite podcastapp.
(01:04):
Share this episode with other F1That's how people find us and
it's how we keep growing thiscommunity.
Hope you enjoy our conversation.
All right gentlemen, ouraudience doesn't have any clue
why we're already laughing, buthopefully it lets them know that
we really enjoy getting to havethis time talking with one
(01:26):
another and that, you know,we're just turning on the
microphone after a bit oftalking and they just get to
listen in.
Hence the reason I say listenUm, we're chatting today about
the Hungarian Grand Prix and Iam really looking forward to
y'all's thoughts.
So let's just get started withDick, you want to get started?
(01:47):
Yeah.
First of all, I thought this wasthe Hungaroring, because of its
And so you didn't see a wholedrivers, you know, sitting there
whatever they needed to do.
(02:07):
Instead, they just kind of wentAnd it was just fun to watch.
And I thought it was a much moreSpeaking as a, as a guy, that's
a as it's all about being a pureracer.
Um, and so I thought it wasI thought Max sending it and
turn one and passing two cars atone spot.
(02:29):
Um, that was brilliant.
Even Max thought that it was aUm, you know, it was just fun to
Um, that race.
I really, really, truly enjoyedUm, I thought Lando did a very
You know, they've got a car nowit's still not very nice to
(02:53):
And so, um, it was nice to seeMcLaren in a position to win,
where you just kind of thought,yeah, these guys look pretty
strong.
Um, I don't know what happenedThey just never like in the very
make their last run, they justThey could not improve and
(03:18):
really a surprise.
And I don't know that there'sWell, I never saw an explanation
Um, but anyway, it's just, youthoughts, but overall, I, I
good fun to watch.
What about you, Joe?
Well, I thought it was aUm, the Hungaroring is like
(03:39):
almost like Monaco without thehouses and without, to be
honest, without the elevationchanges, there's a little bit of
up and down, but there's not alot.
Um and it's just a very, veryI don't, I mean watching the F3
They were wild because, youknow, these guys know that
(04:00):
they've got one chance to getthings done.
And, you know, obviously after ado it again.
But they were completely wild.
Um, because you know that that'sSo qualifying is really McLaren.
I think the car very much suitedI don't think McLaren is really
(04:23):
I think that Mercedes sufferedThe track was a disaster.
They're re re tarmacked a wholeDone it very badly.
And the FIA had passed it justI don't get it.
Don't understand.
They're supposed to beprofessional track inspectors
(04:45):
and they're letting these thingstwice in five races or whatever
it is.
It ain't right.
It ain't right.
There's something they're notYou know, tarmac is a science
It's been studied endlessly.
You can make tarmac to doWhy can't they get it right?
Um, and, you know, and itUm and less so the race because
(05:11):
you know, gluing stuff to theBut it was at the beginning,
the place and there were newIt just wasn't very clever.
Um, so, uh, and the race weekendAntonelli really suffered from
Friday, uh, to Fred Vesti.
(05:33):
I think that put him behind aHe caught up, but then in the
Um, but, you know, I think hereally suffered as a result of
that.
And Ferrari was yeah, you'reIt was just a bit wishy washy
Um, nothing particularlyIt's nice to see McLaren.
I thought Oscar did a very goodAnd he got wildly and
(06:00):
Carlos Sainz and basically lostmomentum, but his cool a little
And making Oscar Piastri loseUm, you know, because he's, you
himself, he's almost horizontalNothing sort of gets him going.
(06:23):
And you know, anyway, apart fromplenty of action.
I thought the racing balls wereUh, Red bull were okay.
Max was Max as ever.
Um, I thought Audi did a veryAnd, uh, and then you had the
(06:43):
about where I expected it to be.
Um, Williams had a bad weekend,which made Aston Martin look
good.
Um, But the Williams wasabsolutely not built for that
racetrack.
So I think it'll be, you know,Hungaroring and Zandvoort and
(07:05):
have to take into account.
You can't just rewrite thesaying, now look at this.
McLaren's back on top.
Let's wait and see.
I think at Monza they'll beYeah, I I'm glad you're bringing
Both of you have brought up somedefinitely discuss with you
(07:30):
about McLaren, that's the mostI had that question of is this
And to hear you both.
I'm wondering now for those whohave asked that question.
What leads you?
Is it the track itself, theseexperiences that you just said
(07:50):
that tells you like historywise, or is there something
about what you saw, the carsperformance that makes you think
that this isn't something whereMcLaren has now turned it all
around?
No, it's just it's always beenlevels of technology are so
(08:16):
close, um, circuit specificity.
So very long and complicatedUm is quite normal.
In other words, one car willjust do certain things better
than others.
Some do low speed corneringSome do high speed cornering
So, you know, and um, there areother things that, that weigh
(08:38):
in.
Um not so much as it used to bein the old days when you had
turbos and, and normallyaspirated engines, there would
be questions about um altitudefor example.
because that does a whole bunchand aerodynamics as well.
Temperature is something which Ithink is is a almost a mystery
(08:59):
to everybody.
How do you make the tires work?
Um, will your car work?
Will it not work?
Um, and that seems to confuseYou know, it'll suddenly change
might be two degrees different.
You know, it's just, um, a very,And if it was easy, we'd all be
(09:22):
You know, we'd all be being paidit all works.
But we don't.
Yeah.
I agree with you on that, Dick.
I wonder from your technicalperspective, like in as a racer
and your Stem background, wouldyou like to jump in before we
move on?
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, to Joe's point, theUm, and I always find it really
(09:48):
interesting where they they talkabout, you know, some cars
having a very, very narrow setupwindow.
Well, all the cars have a narrowIt's just that some are more
And, and by that, I mean, youknow, you have a temperature
change and your air density goesdown.
And if your air density goesdown, that's going to impact
(10:09):
your aero.
It's going to impact thethose kinds of things.
And if you have changeableconditions, it's going to make a
big difference in the way a carperforms from session to
session, let alone the wholeweekend.
And so a lot of it has to doreact and all that.
(10:29):
And I, I believe that right now,all that, they don't have the
would have had, say, at the endit's a hotter day today.
That means we have lost thisWe need to make some adjustments
before we even think about goingout because we're going to be
(10:51):
behind.
To start with, you know,And so I think I think that's
This is where the engineersreally, really earned their
money.
The other part is, is that Idon't know that there's any way
to predict.
I you know, Joe, you've probablyit, but as the temperature goes
(11:13):
itself, that is part of theIt starts coming up.
And so the track loses grip.
And so the engineers have to askbecause we missed something on
because the track is now slower?
You can and you can actually seeexample, a cloud passes over the
(11:39):
difference between sunshine andknow, half a second a lap and
But there are some other thingsJust to quickly add in there,
sort of onslaught of AI goingfollow, obviously, because they
(12:03):
And, and also, how does it work?
You know, a lot of people don'tlot of these engineers do.
So they can do all kinds of, ofthat weren't, weren't doable or
armies of people.
(12:23):
Um, and now AI can do stuff likeSo we'll have to see what that
But what it basically means isthat everything just gets closer
and more, more insanetechnically.
Um, now obviously we're at thedoes spread everybody out.
Um, but I think it won't be toolong before People begin to
(12:45):
close up.
I mean, I'm not sure aboutrest of them, Cadillac is now
As now the Aston have actuallyit's only a half decent car.
You know, we may have moreeverybody is is now more or less
(13:07):
I think that's the best way ofAston were completely out of
And that was disastrous really.
Joe, I have a question for you.
And just really curious.
We know that both the AstonMartin and the Williams are just
grossly overweight.
Right.
Um I heard that for the AstonMartin they're like they were
(13:29):
like thirty kilos over theminimum weight.
Um and Williams may have be evenmore and I find it fascinating
that and for our listeners, theymay find this very interesting,
but you really want to be quitea bit underweight with then
putting them in ballast into thecar and they move the ballast
(13:52):
around front to rear, uh,depending on the nature of the
circuit.
Um oh yeah.
You want to expand on that andYeah.
Well yeah, no, that's entirelyI mean, every, every kilo
overweight costs you, costs youtime.
And the reason it costs you timeis that, you know, a car is
(14:13):
heavier, has more momentum, goesaround a corner and, and
stresses the tyres more, forexample.
I mean, there's lots of otherexplanations, but basically, you
know, moving a heavy object, um,is more difficult than moving a
light object.
It's as simple as that.
So if you can then move theyou know, they have, they have
(14:34):
places for different occasions.
Um, that helps them a lot.
But to get to that um is veryAnd so yeah, it's true.
I think the Red Bulls have beenAnd that's one of the reasons I
think that um, that they've beenstruggling is.
But now it's a matter of sortUm, and you know, we'll see and
(14:56):
there'll be a lot of lessonsbeing learned to for next year
too.
So, um, we could see a completein the, in the pecking order.
Um, next year it's, there's noso new that's, you know, I think
that the Mercedes engine willaccording to um the FIA, uh, the
(15:24):
Um you know.
Right.
Go figure.
Well it isn't, but you know,better by all accounts, but the
very odd that whole um the waysort of upgrades to the engine
(15:46):
nothing when it's clear that Redto be on the pace of Mercedes.
Yeah.
And that makes Mercedes playingThat's that's one thing that you
Um they might have been notusing their engine to the
fullest extent in the start ofthe year, because they knew that
(16:06):
they might be able to gain somemore.
Um, uh, you know, that's one ofthe things that happens in this
game.
You know, you have sandbagging,you have, you have, it's a bit
like the, the whole, uh, balanceof performance rubbish that
exists in the World EnduranceChampionship.
You know, everyone's desperatelytrying to play the system so
they get a better thing for whatthey need.
(16:28):
And mainly what they need is toSo they all pretend that it's
terrible until you get to LeMans and suddenly the whole
order changes.
I mean, it's not my kind ofIt's.
I just old things bent and ISo there you are.
Yeah.
Oh, the other thing is, in Worldactually a rule where
(16:49):
talk about this.
Oh, how wrong is that?
Well, yeah.
How interesting.
I had no idea.
Yeah.
If you talk about it, you getget penalties, you get fines,
Well, we wouldn't want theAnyway.
(17:14):
Yeah, it's that kind of stuff.
It just just makes a mockery ofIt's a bit like reversing the
top ten in formula two andformula three.
What's the point?
Right?
What's the point?
You just get some bloke winningMhm.
And particularly at a race likeMonaco, where you might as well
just give the bloke the cupafter qualifying.
(17:35):
If he if he qualifies tenth he'swon It's necessary that, you
know.
Congratulations.
You won the lottery.
Yeah.
What is the point?
Yeah.
You know.
Yeah.
Okay, so maybe it looks betterIt doesn't, because there's
They just follow each otherBut some other races they, you
know, the fast guys being behindthe slower guys create a just
(17:57):
usually another safety car, thenanother safety car and another
safety car.
And of course anyone sneezes.
There's a safety car these days.
So there's a lot wrong with allthese sort of fiddles that, that
go on.
Um, but we're supposed to belet's go back to that, shall we?
Well, I want to go back toI think you touched on, which
(18:24):
Carlos and Oscar, specificallyCan we unpack a little bit about
Because I know during the race,a lot of commentary post-race.
There was a lot of commentary.
Help us understand, especiallythose of us who weren't watching
thirty years ago, were blueflags.
What's the history of blueWhy were they implemented?
(18:46):
What's the role of them and whatSo help people understand a
changed over time.
Okay.
Um, well, at the beginning ofpotted history of motor racing.
At the beginning of motorracing, they raced from city to
city.
That was too dangerous becausefive hundred mile course, and
(19:11):
by with a cart and getsSo then they went to big
So the circuits were likeseventy miles around, which is a
similar problem.
But gradually the circuit sizeAnd that meant you were lapping
Um, and when you were lappingpeople, you wanted to warn the
guys ahead that, um, that therewas a fast guy coming up behind
(19:33):
him.
So they didn't get in the way.
And basically that's where theNow, nowadays it's all to do
all the rest of it.
Technology has.
The drivers should know.
In fact, in a really good team,they will warn the driver that
such and such is coming upbehind him.
Um, particularly in qualifying,the way because Fred's on a fast
(19:58):
for getting in his way.
Now in the race that also shouldBut sometimes drivers are just
I remember back in the day, backcouple of as they get older,
They don't like being overtaken,winners in their day.
And one of the worst was ReneArnoux, a Frenchman, and he used
to get in everybody's way allthe time.
(20:20):
And it was like, oh, come on,Leave the sport.
If you're going to be like this,You know?
But there were others too, andthey were doing it because they
being in a bad car, you know,little bit of chaos in that too.
I think, you know, Carlos is ais a is a good guy to a large
(20:42):
extent.
But I think there's a little bitthe blue touch paper.
Um, he can, he can get quite umUm, anyway, there we are.
So I mean he got penalised forpenalised for it, but it did
(21:03):
And that shows you also youwas one point I think where
that was it.
He was gone from the race, youbattling for the lead.
That's how tight it is.
And and this is what I think newunderstand is just how, first of
(21:23):
all the time, and secondly, howlittle mistake puts you into,
or whatever, and it puts youUm, and it really is at such a
level that the tiniest thingsreally matter.
And I think Hungary showed usthat in a number of different
(21:44):
ways.
Mhm.
Yeah.
Listening to what you just said.
Oh, Dick, I don't want to cutin on the blue flags.
No, no, no. I, I was chuckling,though, when, when Joe brought
up, um.
René Arnoux because here's ahe was driving for Renault.
(22:05):
And um, one of the UScommentators who's actually a
Brit and I love this guy DavidHobbs.
He was a retired racing driverand was now, um, the color
commentator for the USbroadcast.
Pretty sure old hobo had athe race ever started.
Guy was hilarious and, um, stillaround, but he didn't call him
(22:29):
René Arnoux.
He called him Arnie Renault, andand and from now on, I can never
I always call him Arnie RenaultSo anyway.
Yeah.
Oh, man, what a guy.
(22:49):
Great guy.
Yeah, I, I did a lot of stuffhe was doing, I think it was
We must have done about tenAnd he was just him and Chris
Economaki and, uh, and peoplelike that.
It was, it was a wild time.
And, uh, yeah, there wereYou could misbehave a bit more.
(23:11):
I think I remember hobo standingthe finest traditions.
Um, and it was Varsha, I supposeBob.
Varsha.
Right.
And they wear the shirt and tie.
And then there were shorts andYou know, that bit didn't appear
Um, and it was hot in a lot ofYou know, this kind of stuff.
(23:31):
Um, but for some reason,when they're commentating.
I don't understand that either,Um, it's part of the traditions
Hobbes.
Hobbes was an absolute scream.
Oh yeah, I guess he's I guess heHe had a BMW dealership.
He lives, I think, in FloridaI haven't seen him for a while,
(23:53):
stateside and he's certainly hadI don't know if he's still got
His son, I think might be, um,Family might be running
I mean, there's a little bit ofthat in a number of racing
drivers who sort of settled inthe US.
Um, and, you know, sort of, I, Iwhich one's doing what.
(24:14):
So. Right, right.
Well he was a larger is a largerthan life character, that's for
sure.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Okay.
So I really actually, Joe, Ihope this is okay, but I have a
number of items that you talkedabout in this week's Jsbmb that
I'd love to have you go a littlebit further.
Dick, are you cool with that, orthe race enough?
(24:38):
Yeah, I think we did.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think so.
Okay.
So Joe, like first you alertedeveryone to the Malaysia Bahrain
Grand Prix.
Can you tell us a little bitI know I use the names inverted.
Why don't you give us the story.
Okay.
Well it's a story of money.
(24:58):
That's what it boils down to.
Bahrain has lots of money.
Malaysia has lots of money butdoesn't want to spend it on
motor racing.
Um, the reason Bahrain likesmotor racing is it's good for
the country.
The crown prince is who's alsois um is a huge racing fan.
Um and he's also the owner ofSo um or at least the country is
(25:24):
of the many, uh, sovereignbasically they can't have a race
um, some Americans cause someand, uh, and everything's a mess
at the moment.
In fact, if anything, it'sSo Bahrain was trying to get
back in on October the fourth,um, which is a, a date between
(25:49):
Baku in Azerbaijan andSingapore.
Now, if you look at a map, yougo from Baku to Bahrain to
Singapore.
It's doable.
Formula one can do amazingUm, in terms of getting stuff
in and out of Bahrain becauseyour head and nobody really
(26:10):
So basically what Bahrain saidis, okay, well, we'll pay for a
race somewhere else, which is anovel idea.
Why not?
Malaysia has a decent track.
Um, we used to race there a lot.
It's very hot, very hot, verymiddle of the jungle.
But officially, it wasn't in theOfficially it was in the sort of
(26:32):
But basically it was in thethey couldn't afford it.
They didn't get big enoughAnd when the Singapore Grand
really a sort of movement to,At the same time, the Malaysian
corruption mode for a period.
(26:54):
Uh, and that's not somethingparticularly interested in.
So at the end of the day, theMalaysian Grand Prix got
dropped.
Um, I have a nasty suspicionBahrain Grand Prix in Malaysia
I can see a Saudi Arabian GrandAnd I can see or sorry, in Abu
(27:17):
Imola and I think quite likelyplace in Portugal.
Um, am I in.
AM I in favour of that?
Not really, because I don't likebeing able to just turn up and
Grand Prix racing is about aabout each one being a big
(27:40):
renting the space elsewhere.
Having said that, having saidthat, in the history of the
sport, we had a Swiss Grand Prixand motor racing is banned in
Switzerland.
We had a Swiss Grand Prix inwhich is, you know, I haven't
the border it is, but it's notWe had Luxembourg Grand Prix in
(28:01):
Germany because at that time,uh, it was Michael Schumacher's
era, and they wanted to havemore than one race in each
country.
Now, they invented this thing, aget around that.
Um, but I can't remember thereason or other they had to use
(28:23):
Um, which they did twice And theWhat was that?
Um. Oh yes, of course.
The San Marino Grand Prix wasAnd that was on the Formula One
It's about seventy miles fromSan Marino, and San Marino is
basically a big rock thatsomeone left off a map once, and
(28:45):
they ended up as an independentcountry.
And, um, and, you know, it's,Kimi Antonelli actually lives
because it's fiscally, uh,Um, but so we have, there is a
(29:07):
Um, and that was basically a sopSo you could always have two
And that's sort of gone away nowfundamentally a, a half an
French Grand Prix as well.
So, um, you know, it's, not.
I think it's good to have eachnation having their own grand
(29:28):
prix.
But in this circumstance,Bahrain is willing to pay.
Yeah.
Okay.
But it's odd.
I mean, if you're a fan and, youand you don't know geography
and get someone explaining toMalaysia is going to be a bit
You know?
Mhm.
(29:49):
It mangles geography.
Okay.
So let me ask you this.
How did because I have thoughts,but I want to first make sure
I'm educating myself a littlebit.
And you have such great insightsHow does this type of
think or know?
Is this facilitated by FormulaOne, by liberty, bringing
(30:10):
together these two governments,these two entities like the race
promoters?
How does that happen?
Yeah.
Well, the Bahrain Grand Prix ispromoted by the state of
Bahrain.
So through through a number ofSo basically it's the
Uh, Malaysia is a governmentSo basically in the press
(30:33):
said that, you know, theto achieve this.
I'm sure they had.
I'm sure they had.
Whose idea was it?
Uh, probably I would think thatthe Crown Prince of Bahrain,
he's a very clever bloke, mighthave rung up Stefano Domenicali
and said, what about holding aBahrain Grand Prix somewhere
else?
(30:53):
Now it might be the other wayI don't know that that
particular case, but um, becauseyou have to also look at look at
the impact if a grand prixdoesn't happen.
So a Bahrain Grand Prix probablyhundred million dollars with all
generates around it.
(31:14):
Okay.
It's a lot of money.
You've got the Saudi Arabianwell this year, And the chances
anything in, uh, Abu Dhabi orWhere am I missing?
(31:34):
My brain's gone.
Um.
Qatar.
Qatar?
Yes, exactly.
Sorry.
I was thinking I was I had anIt was Doha, but I, I don't know
So basically we've got fourIf you add them all up and you
say, well that's four hundredmillion loss of revenue to
(31:56):
Formula One, that's a big pileof money.
What happens to that money?
It gets divided by two a littlebit slightly, not quite exactly
two, but basically formula onekeeps some.
The FIA gets some and the teamsget the rest of it divided
between them.
So you're talking about theLet's just do that uh eleven
(32:21):
Let's just say two hundredThat's a pile of money.
And so the teams stand to losethat money if these races don't
happen.
So they will do anything becausesome of these teams don't make
big profits.
Some do make big profits andothers will make big profits one
day.
But they're not they're notSo this is quite important
because if you've budgeted for Xamount and you're twenty million
(32:46):
short because there's four racesdisappeared, that's a serious
problem.
So I think altogether everyoneto have a race.
We'll go wherever we have to go.
And that's pretty much what'sBut we haven't had this.
You know, this happened duringRemember?
Um, yeah, the difference therebeing, um, that not all the
(33:07):
promoters paid, um, the money upfront, a lot of them did it and
a lot of them, you know, therewere races that came in like
Portugal and Turkey who couldn'tafford to pay at normal rates,
but they came in because theopportunity was there and they
could do a race that wasn'tdifficult for everyone to get
to.
With Covid restrictions, etc.
(33:28):
But having the races means yourIf you have enough of them, it
means that your tracksidesponsorship, your all these
deals that you have, um, can allhappen to a lesser or greater
extent.
So you're going to lose someAnd they did.
They all lost money in Covid.
But and you know, if you look atMcLaren, you can see that they
(33:50):
had to sell a whole bunch ofstuff and do a whole, a whole
bunch of things to keep the teamalive.
It was tough.
And, and so now the long termgoal is to have eleven teams
that are all wealthy that allmake, um, about the same kind of
level of commitment and aboutthe same kind of level of
performance.
(34:11):
We're sort of halfway throughthat process that was started by
Chase Carey.
And, and, um, Basically, we'veWe haven't got any teams looking
like they're going to go out ofbusiness because they get more
prize money.
Um, and they are restrictingof budget capping, which is a
(34:32):
I mean, Chase Carey was anextraordinary bloke because
these guys never agreed onanything.
You know, if you said, if yousaid, uh, it's a nice day today,
isn't it?
They some would argue it wasarguing it's Tuesday.
You know, it's that was formulaOne before Chase came along and
he just banged their headstogether until they finally
agreed.
They agreed to get rich.
(34:56):
How dumb is that?
Um, now the FIA is they're justwith its begging bowl out all
It's supposed to be doing um,fees for this, fees for that,
And then they have big partiesconventions in about road safety
(35:18):
impact on Formula One at all.
Um, but that's, you know,the FIA president gave him, um,
probably a big thing in BurundiYou know, I look, I got my FIA
see what value if they don't doI don't see what value the FIA
They seem to think they own it.
(35:40):
Um which legally speaking theyBut a long term lease is like a
hundred year lease of thecommercial agreements is like
virtual ownership because, youknow, it basically amounts to
ownership.
It's not.
But, um, you know, when it comesrenewing that lease in seventy
(36:07):
nothing for it.
Um, if you don't offer somethingcan't survive without formula
Yeah.
A question for you, Joe.
What is the impact of a teamsponsor or somebody who you come
up to him and say, hey, guesswhat?
We're not going to actually beI know you had a bunch of people
(36:32):
plan to be there as your guests,but we're going to host them in
Malaysia instead.
I mean, what what does thatI mean, it's collateral damage.
Yeah.
There's nothing you can do aboutIt's just I mean, there was a
in in Saudi Arabia where theyguests and everything planned
(36:57):
So, you know, what do you do?
You put them all on a plane andIf that's if that's what they
Um, is there a loss of impact?
Yeah, sure.
Your motivations will change.
The people you might want toinvite will probably change as
well.
Um, And so yeah, a lot ofBut then again, this is why,
(37:21):
genius, because they can justAnd, you know, and they have to
about the last two races of theAbu Dhabi ain't going to happen
if things are still flyingaround.
I mean, the other day, the otherhad sent missiles either side of
(37:46):
So you need to start worryingabout the Dakar Rally, the World
Endurance Championship that'salready gone.
Um, the World Rally Championshiparound in Saudi Arabia.
There's a whole bunch of thingsby this war.
And, um, and that impacts onAnd basically it means people
(38:11):
So the other impact.
The other impact, I'd say, isthat the Bahrain Grand Prix,
being in Malaysia, there's abunch of time zones in the way
there.
There's three thousand milestime zones will be different.
And so the viewing times will beIt'll be harder to watch it in
I think probably oh yeah.
(38:32):
Bahrain is usually an eveningnight, which translates into
the US, I think.
And it'll get more complicatedis, I don't know, probably four
I'd have to look it up, youBut yeah, but basically they're
(38:53):
much as they can.
And there are going to be someSure.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, the reason I askedand wanted to really have this
conversation is because one,I've seen so many people,
especially in the social making,very odd comments or just kind
of finding it comical, butlooking at it from a business
(39:15):
perspective or even from a legalperspective, I thought it was a
kind of a stroke of genius to dothis.
I know I hear you, Joe, and Ithink in my mind the analysis I
did was, look, this this is twodifferent frameworks.
One is a force majeure event.
And how are you mitigating theThis is why I wanted to have
(39:38):
gave a great analysis as to theand had to be weighed in to
possible solutions, because thecancellation of the race.
And one time we've already hadthat recently with Imola, with
the flooding, that was at adifferent time in the ride
cycle.
And when you talk about thefinancial impact, what I wrote
(39:59):
down in my notes as you weretalking is to lose every dollar
we're talking about under thecost cap era, in the early part
of a reg cycle, it will have acascading effect financially and
technologically, all alreadycomplaining.
Or at least I am about where theIf they lose that money even
How long does that delay inWhat we want to see as the
(40:24):
optimize the rules and adjust.
So that's just looking at itAnd the reason why I asked the
question of like, who all wasinvolved?
Because I wanted to understandpeople that were involved in
Because when I read this, Ithought, if this does become a
new form of business, a newbusiness model, like you just
(40:46):
said, Chase Carey, such agenius.
I actually thought in a worldcountries are divided, the World
coming together around sport andAnd I think Formula One does
that on a yearly basis,consistently bringing people
(41:07):
together.
But if we got governmentalentities or businesses even more
inside the sport collaboratinglike this.
Could that actually be anotherYou have other financial joint
I don't know if that's positive.
I see your perspective ofwealthy countries coming in to
(41:28):
not so wealthy countries andimpacting them.
But I thought, wow, this is aFormula one, formula one won't
money in it.
Right.
And I don't have a problem withI kind of have a problem with
You know, let's just say China,Prix's and they can't have two
(41:54):
doesn't want to have two GrandWhatever the reason, you know,
have a grand prix, you know,just about make it, but they
So what happens if the Chinese,you know, want a grand prix in
South Africa?
Is that a good thing?
Is that a bad thing?
Is. You know, I think itI think that fans are used to
(42:18):
one of the big events in theand to have them suddenly
world, um, with different titleswork for me.
I think that just just makes itIt's not in, I don't know, I
(42:38):
Is the goal of sport to make aswhere Formula One is at the
Or is it to, um you know, itgoes back a little bit to that
conversation we were havingbefore about formula two and
formula three.
If you make it, you know, theywant more sprint races now
because that gives biggernumbers.
Therefore they get more money.
If you, you know, do they wantI would hate that in Formula
(43:02):
And at the moment I thinkUm, Um, but, you know, is it
being driven just by money or dowe have to hang on to some
traditions?
Well, I mean, I guess I look atdriven by money, I probably have
If it's a primary or a majoritydriver, then I'm okay with it
(43:24):
because in some ways, again, nothaving sat here and thought
through everything, but afterlistening to your insight, I see
it as the problem where peoplesay, why are there three races
in America?
Why do we, as a proud Americanwe get three.
And other countries don't.
It's because we have thefinancial capacity and the
(43:46):
market interest that people arechoosing here.
If it could drive people toSouth Africa to what isn't it
Kyalami?
That's the old race track there.
Yeah.
And if I if the Americans werehelp bring in the infrastructure
that comes, and that could haveAfrican community and the
(44:10):
Do we not then move forwardThose are some of the questions
I know what you're saying.
It's maybe too pollyannaish andtoo positive, but I mean, I
guess I'm seeing it as couldthis be something that actually
brings people to a different wayof engaging?
Like even the World Cup we hadtechnically it was here in the
(44:33):
North America.
Everyone thought about most ofthe United States, but some
and Canada that had to have atourism and bringing those.
I think I think if we look, forexample, a very good example is
Rwanda.
(44:54):
Rwanda is being largely fundedhappen in Rwanda.
It's Qatari money because theaviation hub for Africa next
This is to promote Rwanda, etc.
etc. it's mainly that kind ofmoney.
If you look at the Brazilianof Abu Dhabi money in there.
(45:16):
Um, so it's already happening,races is slightly different, you
have an objection to it.
Not not every single time I Yes.
But I wouldn't like to see itSo if the I guess I'm trying to
(45:37):
So the fact that the money ishappening isn't the issue for
you.
It's more the name.
And I guess I'm saying is if thewhy not use the name and and
It's a new thing to sell.
I thought your other item in thejsbmb that actually kind of ties
into this.
I'll make make that clear.
You talked about, um, Patricksport because he saw a place
(46:06):
And if anything, you can talkBut I guess that's what maybe
made me think this isn't aterrible idea.
If the outside of a forceIf this becomes a new thing.
My personal opinion based offreserve the right to change my
So. Okay, Joe, go ahead.
(46:27):
Tell us a little about Patrick,because it was such a beautiful
tribute that you wrote inside ofthere.
Thank you.
That's nice.
Um, Paddy, as he was known, umweirdly, uh, he had the same job
He was an Autosport reporter andin the commercial side of the
(46:51):
sponsorship was just beginning.
So he was obviously mixed upwith Marlboro in the early
years.
And then he began to see otherBernie, there's a whole bunch of
things that Bernie didn't wantto do, and he wasn't interested
in merchandising.
You know, I once said to Bernie,look at all the money they're
making in America onmerchandising.
Why aren't you doing it?
And he looked at me and he went,And, Bernie, that's fine, but
(47:16):
you're making a whole bunch ofmoney.
He's leaving that you're notYou know, he wasn't interested
He wasn't interested in givingtop of the range globally.
There's nothing beats thePaddock Club in terms of
quality.
Um, the trackside signage.
What a mess that used to be.
If you look at old film of GrandPrix's, there were a thousand
(47:39):
little stickers all over theplace.
Paddy came in and he and it usedand that was a million quid.
Thanks very much.
Ching.
Take the money.
And you, you you make itexclusive because you cut down
the number of sponsors, youraise the prices and you make
the whole thing lookprofessional.
So Paddy had this way of makingAnd he developed them all.
(48:01):
He did all kinds of otherHe made the programs.
He did all the stuff BernieHe did the podiums.
Formula one podiums used to be aBut but Bernie.
But sorry.
Paddy made them.
Made them, uh, look good.
And Bernie and Paddy, they they,their relationship was quite
interesting.
One um, a lot of people thinkbut I don't think he was.
(48:25):
I think that Paddy was paying umdeveloping and Bernie was taking
except to agree to.
I'll take the money, you know,that, believe me.
Um who wouldn't?
Yeah.
But you know, what Paddy wasthe world of sport.
(48:46):
You know, he, there were lots ofsports who stole the paddock
Club idea from formula one lateron.
And so I think Paddy deserves alot more credit than he was
given.
In the end, he sold out for aAnd he's a classy guy.
You know, he he he boughtand, and um and did them up
(49:07):
stuff like that.
And so um I had a lot of timeHe didn't have much time for
journalists, but he did weirdly,he didn't mind me for some
reason.
So we always got on very wellI actually went to him once and,
and, uh, tried to get thecontract to create the
programmes with hisorganisation.
And he took me out to lunch andhe said, you don't want this
(49:29):
deal.
And I went, what?
He said, you don't want to doIt's just a waste of energy.
You won't make much money out ofJust do something else.
Make you know, don't do this.
And in the end, he flogged it toBut I think it was because I was
I was a small operator trying tobecome a bigger operator or
whatever.
And he just said, don't do it.
(49:49):
It's not it's not in yourSo I have a I had a soft spot
He was also, incidentally, oneI believe that I believe that,
especially when you tell usabout the longevity of your
friendship and professionalcareers.
I think it's great.
(50:09):
I have to say, I really havefact that you guys have made
And if anything, I look forwardto our next conversation,
gentlemen.
Yeah, looking forward to it asOkay, friends, what did you
Drop me a line via email.
Sabrina at two Guys, a girl andCan you help us out if you
(50:36):
moment to follow us and give uspodcast app, as well as share
We know our growth is because ofyou and the guys, and I thank
you.
And with that, let me say we'lllistening in because we're just
John, Dick and me.
(50:56):
Sabrina, thanks for listening.
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