February 9, 2026 • 41 mins
In this launch episode of 365 a11y the podcast, Mike Hartley is joined by Cat Schneider for some chat, some laughs, and more than a few insights.
Exploring topics like the power of community, the impact of inclusive design in gaming and media, the positive and negative impacts of AI on accessibility, the future of accessibility in an AI world, and accessibility tips and best practices for content creators.
Some of the points discussed:
- Accessibility is about making content available to as many people as possible
- AI can make life more accessible by helping with tasks and breaking down information
- Positive and negative impacts of AI on accessibility
- Inclusive design in gaming
- Empowering non-developers with Power Platform
- Importance of alt text for images
- Speed control and captions for video accessibility
Thanks for listening folks. Please connect with us and follow us (you know, the usual - Like, Share, Follow 😉) in all the places below:
YouTube: https:/www.youtube.com/@365a11y
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And on all major podcast platforms
All podcast content is © 2026 Mike Hartley / 365 a11y
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello everybody and welcome to 365 Ally, the podcast.
This is the first episode of a new podcast series for a new accessibility community.
My name's Mike Hartley and tonight, today, whenever I am more than happy and overjoyed towelcome the awesome, the wonderful Cat Schneider to the podcast.
(00:21):
So Cat yay! Woo! Hello there!it's so good to see you.
it's been a while, but it is really awesome to see you.
And I know you've been super busy this past year.
with the Power Platform UX UI allies.
I can't believe the quality of the speakers you've had.
(00:44):
They're amazing.
They're really great.
And especially people who have never spoken before or they haven't ever had theopportunity to speak on something that they've done before.
And the people who are passionate about accessibility.
It's fantastic.
It's amazing.
you've also had people on there that I've never heard of or heard them talk aboutaccessibility or even ever thought of them in the context of accessibility, because that's
(01:13):
not their regular thing.
I I look back to having George Doubinsky and Mark Smith.
I I saw them there and I'm like, oh, hold on.
I'm sorry.
They've done access, wow, okay, this is cool.
Yeah, I gotta tell you, I've had an interesting conversation with George Stapinski atPower Platform Conference.
I don't know if it was last year or the year before.
(01:34):
He was getting hot about it and I was like, listen, we can talk for days.
Let's go.
Oh, excellent, excellent.
And I mean, it is amazing because I kind of think back sort of four or five years ago andthere were a few of us who were being quite vocal about accessibility, probably really
(01:54):
quite annoying about it because it was all we spoke about.
And your big...
superstar speakers, your big name speakers, they loved to hear about it and they werereally sympathetic and open to the messaging, but they weren't talking about it.
And when you get names like that, who were talking about accessibility, it really elevatesit up to a whole new level.
(02:17):
I mean, there is no way that I can compare to the star power of those two at all, that'sfor sure.
I mean, what was it?
The very first episode of our user group, it was Charlie, Ana, and myself.
And Charlie covered, I think it was UI, and Ana, covered UX, and I covered accessibility.
(02:39):
And everybody was just over the moon about it.
They were so happy about it.
And then the very next episode,Um, I believe we had April Dunham come on and she talked about accessibility and everybody
just lost their minds.
And it was like, yes, like there are people in the community who care deeply aboutaccessibility.
just not the regular content.
And so getting them to, to just talk about it and see how they light up and they'repassionate about it.
(03:05):
It's fantastic.
I like, it makes my heart very, very happy.
I just wish more people were talking about it in that same kind of joyous light ineverywhere about it, because then more people would start to think about it.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think it's really good that, I mean, the platform that you folks have built ingiving them an opportunity where you're saying, I don't want to hear the regular stuff
(03:30):
that you talk about, about governance and about all this other stuff and licensing and allthat.
I want to hear you talk about accessibility.
And you've really given them that encouragement and said, yeah, come on, talk about it.
Give us...
Give us your perspective on things and it is, it's fantastic.
It's really good.
We had Sean Astroham on the show or on the user group along with Dona Sikhar.
(03:56):
And you know Dona, Dona, she's all about accessibility.
was uh accessibility driven before she was the AI queen.
ah Like that was all she was doing.
That's how I found out about the, what was it?
The Microsoft included, no, it's every year in the spring, they have an accessibilitysummit.
(04:23):
Yes they do.
Ability Summit.
Yes, the Ability Summit, that's what it is.
And that's where I heard her talk about the inclusive design manual that Microsoft cameout with.
Like that was her team that came out with that.
And I was like, this is nuts.
This is crazy.
Because At the time I was working for the state of Florida and I literally hadaccessibility drilled into me as an employee.
(04:47):
for a state agency for 15 years because it is a requirement that everything that we haveis accessible.
I mean, you'd get multimillion dollar lawsuits for your content not being accessible.
So it was like everything you have to do has to be accessible.
And so it was like, I could not make something and it not be accessible.
And so.
(05:07):
seeing Microsoft talking about, here's this inclusive design manual.
Here's how you can go out and you can do it before you even get to the point where youneed to have accessibility as the afterthought, inclusive design as the forefront of
whatever it is that you're doing.
Like make it available to everybody from the beginning.
Like what?
(05:30):
So, but she, she's in there.
She went after Sean andI talked to her later and she's like, that was fantastic.
That was some of the best content I've ever, I'd never heard of him before.
And I'm like, where has he been hiding?
And just like, she's, she's just over the moon about it and just absolutely loved thecontent that we were putting out there.
(05:50):
So I was like,it is, it's been really brilliant to see and really brilliant to watch and to just see
that mix of people you know, people you don't know, people who talk about accessibilityall the time, people who never talk about it, all of a sudden coming and talking about
this.
such a vital topic that, I I I drum it in people at work get sort of, here goes Mike uhand they're like, yeah, we know what's coming.
(06:21):
When's access, and it's just like, no, accessibility isn't an afterthought.
You build it in right at the beginning.
Don't try and do it as an afterthought because there's so much more that like if youinclude it at the beginning it makes the development so much easier.
100 % 100 % soNobody wants to go back and redo their baby that they worked on for however many months
because somebody won't use it.
(06:47):
You can't do it.
You just can't do it half the time because the way things are built it just...
Yeah.
Anyway!you can do this, or I don't know why it's not working now, and we're just gonna have to
start over from the beginning, and that's wasting money, and it's like, yeah, maybe, butif you would've just done it from the beginning.
Yep.
(07:07):
Yep.
You'd have saved time, saved money, and you'd have been compliant right from the offset.
Yep.
100%.
Let's do it from the start.
Like, it might take a little bit more time, but I promise it's gonna be worth the effort.
Yeah, 100 % totally.
So it's the message I've been...
than trying to do it after.
Yep.
(07:27):
Yeah.
So all this being said, for you, for Cat, as I'm talking to you, what does accessibilitymean to you?
What is accessibility in the world of Cat?
I mean, accessibility is just about making whatever it is that you have available to asmany people as possible, whether or not they use it, like regardless of them using it, if
(07:52):
they need it, they should have access to it.
Like we shouldn't just be making content for those that are able-bodied or those that arecapable of consuming it without any effort.
Like just making it available.
The information is out there.
shouldn't, we should not be gatekeeping, if you will.
just make it available.
Yeah, yeah, I couldn't agree more.
(08:14):
So I'm...
it makes things like using especially like, cause we're developers.
We develop tools and solutions and whatnot.
You don't want to develop something that people just can't use because like you, youdeveloped it.
There was a reason you developed it.
You wanted to make something that people could use and then people can't use it.
(08:38):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, I mean, one of the one of the most recent examples I've got is I'm not a heavygamer, but I do like gaming.
I've got an I've got an Xbox.
I've got a wonderful little uh handheld as well.
And the one games that I really do like is the Forza Horizon series, the open world.
(09:03):
car racing and all that, like I'm a petrolhead.
My eldest son, likes the games as well.
So we always stay up till midnight on launch day and we're there, both of us playing it.
And the last couple of releases of Forza Horizon, they've really gone all out on being themost accessible games they can possibly be.
And they've made a really big deal about it.
(09:26):
And they've driven on accessibility in the gaming world.
And there was the Xbox developer showcase last night and we've got a new Forza Horizongame coming in May.
And they did this 11 minute reel talking about the development of game, talking about howthey'd research Japan, which is where it's based this time, how they'd research car
(09:49):
culture and everything else, and how they've included all the accessibility they'd donebefore.
and more, how they are doing even more and they showed some of the stuff and I'm sittingthere and I mean I'm drooling over the sort of crazy...
yeah exactly and as soon as they said accessibility I'm like I knew there was a reason Iloved you guys I mean seriously I mean you just make me love the game even more
(10:19):
Yeah.
I mean, I use subtitles.
game studios, any of them that are going out of their way to put accessibility into theirgames to make sure that their content is available for people with varying abilities to
access it, to have that escape from the real world.
(10:41):
Like it is, like I get anime eyes, like those anime heart eyes every time I see them.
yeah.
Like, you're my new favorite, I love you.
Yeah, and when they also, when you're building your avatar and they allow you to havepeople with a limb missing or in a wheelchair and you're just like...
(11:03):
that representation making people feel seen.
Even like, okay, so this is slightly off topic of accessibility.
It's about inclusion.
African American hair is not greatly represented in video games.
When I saw Hogwarts Legacy and the fact that they had so many African American hairstylesthat they put actual texture into it, it's not the greatest, but it's there.
(11:33):
And that's the first step is just starting.
Like if you can just start, then you can just build.
And like, yes, like it makes my heart so happy when I see more and more of the real worldentering games.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(11:53):
It's just seeing the fact that...
we are seeing so much more content coming out that is designed to be more accessible andmore inclusive and it's just like you know what I'm here for that you make me so happy
I'll be I can be watching TV and they'll do something where accessibility is and my wifewill just look at me and she'll just know that I will be beaming I will be smiling so much
(12:22):
because it is amazing.
yeah.
So here's another accessibility feature of gaming.
The ability to turn off content that starts phobias.
So how many people have arachnophobia?
Did you know in Hogwarts Legacy, you can turn off the, like there's an arachnophobiasetting so that the spiders, because I mean Hogwarts, like
(12:50):
There's a whole bit about the spiders.
Like, you have the ability to flip that little toggle and now the spiders are like justthese black bobs or blops and they have like little spaghetti like things but on the ends
of their little spaghetti legs are skates.
Like it's the most hilarious looking thing I've ever seen.
(13:14):
But like I've been playing Baldur's Gate 3 with some friends.
And we made it to act two and act two.
I have tryptophobia.
Like I cannot stand.
Holes and things like I really can't.
Everywhere I looked like these trees and this act like everywhere.
And I was like, my God, my God, my God.
(13:34):
I'm like literally losing my mind.
It's like, can we please find somewhere where these trees are not?
Why is there no setting to turn this off?
This is insane.
Like as an artist.
I get it.
That is great content.
They did a fantastic job.
However, as somebody with tryptophobia, I want to go find the artists and bring theirnecks for not putting something in the game so that I could turn that off.
(13:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's an interesting one.
It really is.
But yeah.
So in your daily life, day to day, what, what, what's, what's accessibility look like inyour daily life?
What, what, what kind of, are there any things that you use day to day that are part ofyour daily life or?
(14:20):
I wouldn't necessarily say that I think of accessibility in a regular fashion.
It's not at the forefront of my brain.
It's one of these things that when I need it, it's nice if it's there.
It's nice if it's just built in and I don't have to think about it.
Or if I do have to think about it, it doesn't take much effort for me to deal with it.
(14:42):
Um, but since like the whole AI boom, like people get upset about AI, AI is going to takeour jobs.
AI is going to, to, you know, over run the earth and we're going to end up with Skynet andthe Terminator and you know, developers are going to be obsolete.
Like, okay.
Sure.
There might be situations and where theAI is better at doing the work of whatever needs to be done.
(15:11):
But the AI is, if you're using it right, it takes over the menial tasks that nobody wantsto do, that just drains you creatively and mentally and emotionally and gives that back to
you.
It gives you that time back so that you can now go do the human aspect of whatever it isthat you're doing.
And so for me,accessibility is having the ability to access AI in a way that I can, you know, I can do
(15:32):
the things that I need to do because having ADHD, tell you right now, not fun.
It can be fun.
But when you're on the hook for things and you're like, I just can't get through theanalysis paralysis.
I just can't get through likehow many options that are out there and I can't get over that hump.
(16:00):
Having AI there to be like, hey, help me just break this down into the smaller tasks thatI need to do.
Help me decide what needs to happen in order to get the job done.
Because right now I can't figure it out.
That to me is phenomenal.
That to me makes everything so much better.
And that is accessibility to me.
(16:21):
It is totally.
mean, that's what it's about.
It's about using the tools that are around to make your life a lot more accessible to youand stuff.
So, so yeah, no, I, yeah, I totally get that.
do.
So, so going onto the AI topic.
(16:42):
Mm-hmm.
Weird.
That never comes up.
So weird.
Yeah, I mean, I remember when like ChatGPT first launched in the big blast.
And I said to my boys at the time, this is the real deal now.
(17:03):
This is not another false start of AI.
And you're looking at...
a moment in time that will quite honestly be as big as Tim Berners-Lee inventing the WorldWide Web.
Yeah.
it and probably bigger because it's going to our daily lives a heck of a lot more.
And they're like, oh, not sure about not sure about that.
(17:25):
And now they're like, yeah, okay, we see it.
We kind of get it now.
And I think it I mean, it's fascinating watching the AI journey.
And I know we can all get a bit of a bit of AI bored, boredness, boredom.
BecauseEverybody, everything's about AI, but it is such fascinating topics.
(17:48):
So from, from, from, from your eyes, what's kind of been the positive and the negative ofAI that you've seen from an accessibility world over the last few years.
So, like I said, as soon as chat GPT became available for regular users to start using, Iimmediately signed up.
(18:11):
I was like, 100 % let's go.
I want in on this, let's go.
And so I've been paying the $20 a month since the beginning because I was like, let's go.
This is making my life so much easier.
So I've never been diagnosed with dyslexia or calc-dyscalculia or whatever it is.
But I know, like in, I can see something, I can see a number, I can see words, whatever.
(18:36):
I can see it, I know exactly what it is.
If I try to spit it out of my mouth, it'll get all mixed up and jumbled up.
But then when I go to like try and transpose the information, I get the informationcorrect.
It's just like it gets jumbled up and I don't know if that's the ADHD.
I don't know if it's dyslexia or dyscalculia or whatever.
But like I know that's something that happens for me.
(18:57):
Which has made my life really difficult when it comes to writing and it comes to producingcontent for you know when I started in that whole MBP space like I was writing blogs and I
was like whatWhat do I write about?
Like, I am super passionate about the things that I love.
Like, I will, I could talk to somebody about accessibility.
(19:18):
I could talk to somebody about data.
I could talk to somebody about building a Canvas app for weeks and months on end.
Like, not even stopping to take a breath.
Like, let's just talk about this forever.
But trying to write about it, it's just...
is so hard because again, analysis paralysis, where do I start?
(19:39):
How do I put this in a format that somebody's gonna understand?
How do I even like explain this, like break it down?
Because for me, talking to somebody and having that feedback from someone is really whereI can get the point across or I can help them start to understand something because I can
start to understand how they're understanding it.
(20:00):
And so then that like,It was really difficult for me to write my blog.
And so when I was like, all right, let's try this chat GPT thing.
Let's go out there.
Let's say this is what I want to talk about.
And I want to just create the bone structure for me because as long as it's got the bonestructure, I can fill in the content.
Like it was just, it was so hard to do.
(20:21):
Like just starting.
And so that was starting it for me.
like, it's been incredible.
Like it's made me able to create content where I had struggled to create content before.
So that was the good thing.
Another great thing is when they started allowing us to create custom GPTs.
Like I literally just opened it up.
The very first custom GPT that I ever made in chat GPT was a, ahalt text generator assistant.
(20:49):
very first one that I did.
was like, and it was, it was just for me.
I just wanted to be able, cause like I said, writing was hard for me.
Alt text for everybody, unless you are a writer and you just do this all the time is justhard.
Like how do you explain a picture?
Like I can see the picture.
What, what do I, what do I gotta say here?
(21:09):
Like how do I say this?
Like how do want to say this?
Do I want my alt text to be funny?
Do I want it to tell a story?
Do I want it?
So like, what is the alt text for and how do we like make it so that the content isworthwhile, whether or not you ever see it?
Like, cause for most people, they don't know that alt text even exists on a website.
(21:30):
But somebody using the screen reader, because they can't see the images on the screen orthings are just really fuzzy for them or you know.
people who use a screen reader because they're outside and it's really bright and theycan't see their phone screen so they have their phone like read it off to them.
any number of reasons why or hey your internet's not doing so hot so it can't load imagesbut you know what it can load is it can load that alt text.
(21:53):
So like alt text for me was hard but I was like no if I'm putting a picture online whetherit's LinkedIn, Twitter, Blue Sky, on my blog, whatever it is
I want alt text for this image and I want it to be available, whether it's the descriptionor it's alt text, whatever it is, I just want to be able to generate it I want to be able
to generate it quickly.
And so I created this alt text generator where I'd literally give it an image.
(22:15):
I'm like, hey, just provide a couple of options for me about what's in this image.
Because I mean, AI can start to see shapes and can see colors and it can describe thisthing for me.
why not do that?
It was a quick, easy one to make.
I made it available for the public and it got a little bit of traction.
(22:36):
I put it out on Twitter.
People started going out there and using it and it like I was using it all the timebecause literally anything I was like bloop alt text generator.
Here's my image.
Just give me something.
It didn't get right every time.
I can't tell you that there's been any time that I've evertaken exactly what I got from the alt text generator and just dropped it in there without
changing anything.
(22:58):
Because there are times I'm like, I don't know what you were seeing, but that wasdefinitely not that.
But it was close.
So I can make a couple of edits.
Yeah, it started it for me.
And then I think I put it on Blue Sky when Blue Sky had, like I had just pinned it to mypage on Blue Sky.
I went from 5,000 individual chats on that thing.
(23:21):
It blew up.
is now over 25,000 chats that people have had with my alt text generator.
that's insane.
Like 25,000 individual chats and these individual chats, they don't, it's not necessarilylike you send a message and it sends a message back.
(23:44):
No, like you can continue to have these chats and it like that just counts as one chatwhether you've only sent one image or you sent 300 images.
So there's no telling how much this thing has actually been used.
But it is incredible that 25,000 individual chats more than 25,000 have been used withthis thing.
Like that's fantastic.
(24:05):
Like people are out there using this to help them generate their alt text for theirimages, which means that there's more people out there making alt text for their images.
Which is brilliant.
That is, yeah.
No, that is absolutely phenomenal.
That is brilliant.
That is really cool.
The one thing for me, I just, want to make people's lives better.
(24:28):
Like, I worked as a public servant for 15 years.
Like, you can't be doing that for the money, because there's no money in it as a publicservant.
Like, there just isn't.
I wanted to make people's lives easier.
I wanted to do what I could, whether it was my inspectors, whether it was the people downthe hall for me trying to put data together to...
to be able to send that to somebody so somebody else could make a decision to help betterthe people of the state of Florida, whatever it was, I always wanted to do something that
(24:56):
changed people's lives for the better.
25,000 individual chats for alt text.
It's making somebody's life better.
Yeah, that is brilliant.
I mean, I mean, that is huge.
That is unbelievable.
That is just fantastic.
(25:18):
Rightly so.
Rightly so.
That is...
It's fantastic.
Like it went from 5,000 chats to now over 25,000 chats.
Because, and especially because the accessibility people, like those people on Blue Skywho just love accessibility, like it is in their DNA.
Like there are fanatics about it on there to the point like people would put up a picture.
(25:44):
on blue sky without any alt text and people would jump on him.
You need to be using alt text.
Why aren't you using alt text?
I'm like, whoa, okay, hold on.
Take a step back.
Let's take a breath.
This is a teaching moment.
Yeah, yeah, let's educate people.
mean, yeah, if they continue to do it after they've been educated, then yeah, we mightadminister a gentle slapping.
(26:11):
But yeah, no, that is a huge win.
That is phenomenal.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, do, do.
We'll get it out there even more.
See if we can...
uhIf I can get over a hundred thousand chats, I will cry.
I will literally just cry tears.
brilliant.
So, I mean, that really leads quite nicely on what would you see as the future ofaccessibility in an AI world?
(26:38):
mean, AI has grown so much in the last four years or however many years, I've lost count,I'm dreadful with time.
And the capabilities of...
Amazing.
So what would you say or see as accessibility in this AI world?
So I come from a different background of most developers, not within the Power Platform,because most developers within the Power Platform come from different backgrounds than
(27:04):
most developers.
I mean, we talked about Angeliki before this started.
I mean, she was a hairstylist before she got into development.
I mean, come on, that is so far.
from the realm of development.
Like it's fantastic.
That's one of the things that I love about this community is you get people from literallyall walks of life developing in the Power Platform.
(27:27):
ah That being said, I come from a different background.
I come from the business side, the public sector.
I was not in IT.
I called myself IT adjacent before I left because everybody would call me and like, I'mhaving this problem with my computer.
I don't want to call the service desk.
Nobody wants to the service desk.
I feel like my tickets never gonna get seen.
Can you help me like turn your computer off and on again?
(27:48):
But yeah, having people have access again, accessibility, having access, being able to dothe things that they need to do.
That's what I absolutely loved about Power Platform when I found it.
was like, holy cow.
Here's the thing where you don't have to know how to code.
You don't have to know C sharp.
You don't have to know Java, JavaScript, anything HTML, CSS, XML.
(28:11):
Like you don't need to know that.
in order to be able to build something that's going to help you do your job better.
You can just build it.
And while like you don't have to know how to build a database, you don't have to know howto, you know, put together a loop so that things happen.
Like you don't have to know all of these concepts for computer engineering in order tobuild something that's going to just make your job easier.
(28:39):
Like that, that was my shift.
from, technically my shift was learning SQL and SharePoint and HTML and CSS and all ofthat because ADHD, come on, I've got to have hobbies that I just dive all the way into.
But uh having the ability to like shift from the business user side of things andunderstanding the way the business works and understanding
(29:03):
We've got SOPs and we've got the way that the things just happen to being able to buildsomething because like I can develop this.
I can develop a solution that is now going to take this task that I had.
Like I give the example of one of the very first like aha moments of automation that I hadever built was a single button in Excel that I clicked.
(29:26):
And then I walked away from my computer for two hours because what it did is it kicked offa macro that opened up Internet Explorer that went to the EPA website, logged in with my
username and password, went to the very specific CSV.
Like there were 30 different CSV pages that I had to go visit so that could download thoseCSV files.
And then import them into the Excel.
(29:48):
and then verify it against the data that I imported from the week before and verify ifanything changed and then send all of this information out to a group of like 30 people to
verify every single week for three months at the beginning of the year.
Every Monday morning for two hours, I'd have to walk away from my computer, but it was asingle button click and it just automated all of that for me.
hours on a Monday where we were doing this all manually before that we would have to goout and we'd have to go to those individual sites and we'd have to click the CSV and
(30:17):
download it and then we parsing it out between the different groups and everybody washaving to like do things but then everybody's busy because they've got and it just I ended
up doing it and it was it fell to just me to get it done and then parse it out soeverybody else could still do their their work
And all I was parsing out was, these are the changes from last week.
Is this correct?
(30:37):
And they just had to check the changes.
That was it.
That was the QA, QC process for them.
Like I, my computer granted was doing its thing for two hours.
So I was out for two hours, but I could go do other things.
And then now I've got power apps and I can, instead of trying to go and like do all thiscrazy VBA macro.
bullshit, like, I can just do it in Power Apps.
(31:00):
I can go connect to the data source and I can just pull it in and I can interact with itright there.
And I don't have to like do all of this extra, like extracting and transforming and movingit all around.
Like, I can just do it in Power Apps.
And now AI, we can vibe code.
We can vibe code and we can build applications.
(31:22):
We don't have to know how to do any of this stuff.
Like, we need the smarts in order to understand what AI is doing.
But you can teach somebody.
It doesn't take a lot to teach somebody the concepts.
And if they can follow along, AI, like it's, I don't think AI is ever gonna be perfect.
Like, yeah, humans aren't perfect and humans are the ones that are coding the AI.
(31:45):
AI is going to get better.
Humans are going to get better.
Humans are going to change.
Their needs are going to change.
AI is going to need to change.
Like, we're constantly always going to be changing.
AI is constantly always going to be there.
Like, until the giant world EMP goes off and we lose access to computers, like, AI isalways going to be there.
Like, this is just, this is what we're doing.
(32:07):
This is what we're doing for a while.
Yeah.
And I think, I think the, the thing for me that, that I've really discovered is if youjust add a simple line to your AI prompt, make this compliant with WCAG 2.2 and ARIA.
One simple line and it won't be perfect.
It won't do everything.
(32:28):
but it will do more than the developers who would do nothing because they don't have timeto do it.
They don't know what they're doing.
They don't know what they should be doing.
You add that one line in there and I guarantee you it will be 90 % better than thedeveloper who did nothing.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
(32:49):
I know you totally asked me what's AI and accessibility supposed to do, I went off a wholetangent about AI is making development accessible.
It is, it is.
And it is crazy.
mean, it is blowing my mind at the moment, the stuff that I'm able to do, the stuff thatI'm seeing done with it.
And I mean, you you've got one right back there.
(33:10):
I've got one right here.
We're MVP's.
Like we have access to some of this stuff early, a lot earlier than the general public.
And we're able to see what's going on.
I I'm going to MVP some, I don't know about you, but I'm going to.
I'm also going to go and make a racket while I'm there because that's what I do.
I think last year I actually took a microphone in one of the sessions and I was like, no,this one's mine.
(33:32):
Everybody else can share.
This one's mine, I have lots of thoughts and feelings and you're gonna hear them.
Because a lot of my thoughts and feelings were around accessibility.
Yeah, yeah, it's quite funny.
I remember one year I went and I would be in nearly every session and I put my hand up andthey'd go, yeah, oh, there's Mike, let me guess accessibility.
(33:57):
And I'm like, yep, you guessed it, accessibility.
So it was just like, yeah, it was brilliant.
But OK, so what is Cat's?
One, two personal hot tips for accessibility.
What would you tell people right now?
(34:20):
here.
quick little backstory.
And I'm going to try to make this as quick as I can, little backstory.
Like I said, I worked in the state for 15 years.
We had accessibility drilled into us.
Anything that you are making needs to be accessible.
I did a career switch.
I was one of the career switchers that they were all, like Microsoft was all up aboutlike, hey, we need career switchers.
We want to highlight career switchers in the Power Platform, whatnot.
(34:43):
I went from...
public sector to private sector.
went from business user to developer.
Like I'd made that switch.
And I went to go work for an MSP.
Now MSP, basically if people don't know that that's a multi-service provider.
They do computer services for organizations who don't really have IT.
And when I got there,I was like, so what are we doing about accessibility?
(35:04):
They hated it.
They hate it.
I literally brought it up all the time.
I was like, we got to do like even the marketing team, because our marketing team was twopeople.
And I was like, guys.
Our website is not accessible.
We need to be doing something about that.
That's the face of the organization to the public.
We need to be doing something.
it's fine.
It's fine.
It's fine.
Right before I left and went to go work for another organization.
(35:26):
I get a phone call from the head of marketing and he's like, Hey, so I know you, talkedabout accessibility all the time, right?
And I was like, yeah, I'm pretty synonymous with that at this point.
and he goes, so found out that we're going to be included in like a top 500 organizationsthing and we need to make our website accessible.
I was like, Oh, really?
(35:46):
I mean, granted, yes, a private organization is not held to the same standards as a uhpublic organization.
A private organization can be sued in the US for not having accessible content or notmaking their services accessible.
They can be sued, but it's rare.
It's more public services if your content is not accessible, if access is just not there.
(36:09):
That's where a lot of the majority of lawsuits come from.
But I kept hammering on them.
I'm like, guys, you really need to consider accessibility when you're doing this.
We need to consider accessibility when we're creating our PowerPoints.
We need to consider accessibility when we're doing our webinars.
Literally all the time, I was like, how is this accessible?
What are we doing about accessibility?
And they were like, girl, stop it.
(36:30):
And then he's like, what can we do?
And I was like, all right.
And so all of that said.
This is what I told him.
Just start.
Like, just start.
It's not hard to get started.
If you have a website and somebody is complaining about it not being accessible, mainthings.
Alt text on all of your images, whatever you do, alt text.
(36:50):
Don't have large sections of italicized content.
Can't be read.
I was like,your colors, go to these websites, put in your website, your web address, and these
websites will tell you if your content is visible for colorblind people, if there's enoughcontrast.
Like, this is one thing I hated about this organization's logo, is you couldn't see it alot of time on white.
(37:13):
Right, yeah.
And I'm like, I mean, if you put it on on the blue background, it's great.
But on the white background, God, it hurts.
Like, and I can see a lot of colors.
I'm, I'm, I'm not going to say I'm a tetrachromat, but I feel like I'm very close to beinga tetrachromat.
Like I can see a lot of colors and I don't know if you've noticed, there's a lot of colorsaround me.
(37:33):
It makes my life so much happier.
And if I'm having a hard time struggling to see the colors, that's bad.
Yep.
So it's like, know you guys are not gonna change your logo.
That's never gonna happen.
But you can do things to make it so it's easier to see.
Like, give it a shadow.
Give it some sort of contrast.
Like, the contrast has to be there.
(37:54):
The colors have to be there.
You've gotta have alt text.
Don't have a bunch of italicized.
If you do that, you're well on your way to accessible content.
You're not there.
You're not 100 % there, ready to go.
But you are well on your way.
You are like 90 % of the way there.
And for the love of God, if you're making a video.
Put captions in there and make it so people can speed up and slow down your video.
(38:16):
Because if that is not there, I'm telling you right now, as somebody with ADHD, my brainliterally flies at a thousand miles an hour.
Like everything is going every direction, all the time, all at once.
If you are talking too slow in a training video, guess who's checked out of that trainingvideo after the first 30 seconds.
I'm not paying attention to this video.
Like give me the ability to speed it up.
(38:38):
It does not mean that I'm not getting the content.
It means that the content is now accessible for me to take it in and stay engaged.
But that being said, there are people out there who they can't keep up with that kind ofspeed.
They can't keep up with a normal pace.
They need it slowed down.
I'm not saying speed it up because I'm speedy.
I'm saying give us the ability to change the speed.
(39:01):
Whether it's got to be slowed down or it's got to be sped up regardless.
Because the best content creators that are out there, they can, you know, have a thing.
But ifI can't engage with it, I'm never gonna watch it.
and then we're gonna do it.
no, I 100 % agree on that.
mean, my wife will often say to me, she'll hear me watching videos and stuff.
I'm, I'm watching them.
(39:23):
I'll start at two, two and a half times speed, and then I can get faster and faster.
And my wife will come in and she'll be like, I have no idea how you cope with that.
I can't follow it.
And I'm like,I'm the same with audiobooks.
Yeah, I need it to be sped up, but give me the ability to slow it back down becausethere'll be times where I'm watching it and I'm like, whoa, wait a second.
(39:44):
That concept went way over my head.
Let me back it up and slow it down and go real slow here because all of the stuff thatcame before I got it.
Like I could sit there and I could write you a thesis statement.
Not not just by myself.
I'm going to use AI to do it, but I could write you a thesis statement on everything thatcame before.
But this point right here, I need to slow down, back it up.
(40:04):
take it slow.
now, okay, I'm with you now.
Okay, speed it back up.
Let's go.
Like the very first time I met Shane Young was at the first Power Platform Conference thatwas in Orlando.
And I was just like, hey Shane, like, my name's Cat, like I've been watching your videos,you really helped me get into the power platform and whatnot.
And he started talking, I was like, oh my God, you're talking so slow.
I'm gonna need you to speed it up a little bit.
(40:26):
I was just used to watching all of his videos at two times.
You kind of you kind of pressing and pressing and holding to see if it's double speeds itand yeah Yeah, I have actually done that I've been talking to people and I've kind of gone
like that and they're like what are you doing?
And I'm like, I'm trying to double your speed up because you're going too slow for me Butno awesome.
Well cat it has been an absolute delight having you as the first guestIt has been wonderful.
(40:53):
I've absolutely loved it.
It's been a complete enough to blast.
So thank you.
seen my smile this whole time, but I'm absolutely loving this content.
It is amazing and thank you so so much and thank you for sharing your experience, yourstories and yeah I look forward to seeing you in MVP Summit and uh
(41:21):
to create the accessibility corner in every session.
They're going to be like, uh, those two.
No, already know what you're going to say.
And I'm going be like, with me, the microphone, we have thoughts and feelings on this.
Yeah, but no it has been wonderful catching up with you and wonderful to have you as aguest on the podcast.
(41:43):
So thank you very much Cat Schneider.
Thank you.
And folks we will catch you on the next episode of the 365 Ally podcast.
So watch this space.
There will be another one coming soon.
So long everybody.
Bye.
Hello everybody and welcome to 365 Ally, the podcast.
This is the first episode of a new podcast series for a new accessibility community.
My name's Mike Hartley and tonight, today, whenever I am more than happy and overjoyed towelcome the awesome, the wonderful Cat Schneider to the podcast.
(00:21):
So Cat yay! Woo! Hello there!it's so good to see you.
it's been a while, but it is really awesome to see you.
And I know you've been super busy this past year.
with the Power Platform UX UI allies.
I can't believe the quality of the speakers you've had.
(00:44):
They're amazing.
They're really great.
And especially people who have never spoken before or they haven't ever had theopportunity to speak on something that they've done before.
And the people who are passionate about accessibility.
It's fantastic.
It's amazing.
you've also had people on there that I've never heard of or heard them talk aboutaccessibility or even ever thought of them in the context of accessibility, because that's
(01:13):
not their regular thing.
I I look back to having George Doubinsky and Mark Smith.
I I saw them there and I'm like, oh, hold on.
I'm sorry.
They've done access, wow, okay, this is cool.
Yeah, I gotta tell you, I've had an interesting conversation with George Stapinski atPower Platform Conference.
I don't know if it was last year or the year before.
(01:34):
He was getting hot about it and I was like, listen, we can talk for days.
Let's go.
Oh, excellent, excellent.
And I mean, it is amazing because I kind of think back sort of four or five years ago andthere were a few of us who were being quite vocal about accessibility, probably really
(01:54):
quite annoying about it because it was all we spoke about.
And your big...
superstar speakers, your big name speakers, they loved to hear about it and they werereally sympathetic and open to the messaging, but they weren't talking about it.
And when you get names like that, who were talking about accessibility, it really elevatesit up to a whole new level.
(02:17):
I mean, there is no way that I can compare to the star power of those two at all, that'sfor sure.
I mean, what was it?
The very first episode of our user group, it was Charlie, Ana, and myself.
And Charlie covered, I think it was UI, and Ana, covered UX, and I covered accessibility.
(02:39):
And everybody was just over the moon about it.
They were so happy about it.
And then the very next episode,Um, I believe we had April Dunham come on and she talked about accessibility and everybody
just lost their minds.
And it was like, yes, like there are people in the community who care deeply aboutaccessibility.
just not the regular content.
And so getting them to, to just talk about it and see how they light up and they'repassionate about it.
(03:05):
It's fantastic.
I like, it makes my heart very, very happy.
I just wish more people were talking about it in that same kind of joyous light ineverywhere about it, because then more people would start to think about it.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think it's really good that, I mean, the platform that you folks have built ingiving them an opportunity where you're saying, I don't want to hear the regular stuff
(03:30):
that you talk about, about governance and about all this other stuff and licensing and allthat.
I want to hear you talk about accessibility.
And you've really given them that encouragement and said, yeah, come on, talk about it.
Give us...
Give us your perspective on things and it is, it's fantastic.
It's really good.
We had Sean Astroham on the show or on the user group along with Dona Sikhar.
(03:56):
And you know Dona, Dona, she's all about accessibility.
was uh accessibility driven before she was the AI queen.
ah Like that was all she was doing.
That's how I found out about the, what was it?
The Microsoft included, no, it's every year in the spring, they have an accessibilitysummit.
(04:23):
Yes they do.
Ability Summit.
Yes, the Ability Summit, that's what it is.
And that's where I heard her talk about the inclusive design manual that Microsoft cameout with.
Like that was her team that came out with that.
And I was like, this is nuts.
This is crazy.
Because At the time I was working for the state of Florida and I literally hadaccessibility drilled into me as an employee.
(04:47):
for a state agency for 15 years because it is a requirement that everything that we haveis accessible.
I mean, you'd get multimillion dollar lawsuits for your content not being accessible.
So it was like everything you have to do has to be accessible.
And so it was like, I could not make something and it not be accessible.
And so.
(05:07):
seeing Microsoft talking about, here's this inclusive design manual.
Here's how you can go out and you can do it before you even get to the point where youneed to have accessibility as the afterthought, inclusive design as the forefront of
whatever it is that you're doing.
Like make it available to everybody from the beginning.
Like what?
(05:30):
So, but she, she's in there.
She went after Sean andI talked to her later and she's like, that was fantastic.
That was some of the best content I've ever, I'd never heard of him before.
And I'm like, where has he been hiding?
And just like, she's, she's just over the moon about it and just absolutely loved thecontent that we were putting out there.
(05:50):
So I was like,it is, it's been really brilliant to see and really brilliant to watch and to just see
that mix of people you know, people you don't know, people who talk about accessibilityall the time, people who never talk about it, all of a sudden coming and talking about
this.
such a vital topic that, I I I drum it in people at work get sort of, here goes Mike uhand they're like, yeah, we know what's coming.
(06:21):
When's access, and it's just like, no, accessibility isn't an afterthought.
You build it in right at the beginning.
Don't try and do it as an afterthought because there's so much more that like if youinclude it at the beginning it makes the development so much easier.
100 % 100 % soNobody wants to go back and redo their baby that they worked on for however many months
because somebody won't use it.
(06:47):
You can't do it.
You just can't do it half the time because the way things are built it just...
Yeah.
Anyway!you can do this, or I don't know why it's not working now, and we're just gonna have to
start over from the beginning, and that's wasting money, and it's like, yeah, maybe, butif you would've just done it from the beginning.
Yep.
(07:07):
Yep.
You'd have saved time, saved money, and you'd have been compliant right from the offset.
Yep.
100%.
Let's do it from the start.
Like, it might take a little bit more time, but I promise it's gonna be worth the effort.
Yeah, 100 % totally.
So it's the message I've been...
than trying to do it after.
Yep.
(07:27):
Yeah.
So all this being said, for you, for Cat, as I'm talking to you, what does accessibilitymean to you?
What is accessibility in the world of Cat?
I mean, accessibility is just about making whatever it is that you have available to asmany people as possible, whether or not they use it, like regardless of them using it, if
(07:52):
they need it, they should have access to it.
Like we shouldn't just be making content for those that are able-bodied or those that arecapable of consuming it without any effort.
Like just making it available.
The information is out there.
shouldn't, we should not be gatekeeping, if you will.
just make it available.
Yeah, yeah, I couldn't agree more.
(08:14):
So I'm...
it makes things like using especially like, cause we're developers.
We develop tools and solutions and whatnot.
You don't want to develop something that people just can't use because like you, youdeveloped it.
There was a reason you developed it.
You wanted to make something that people could use and then people can't use it.
(08:38):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, I mean, one of the one of the most recent examples I've got is I'm not a heavygamer, but I do like gaming.
I've got an I've got an Xbox.
I've got a wonderful little uh handheld as well.
And the one games that I really do like is the Forza Horizon series, the open world.
(09:03):
car racing and all that, like I'm a petrolhead.
My eldest son, likes the games as well.
So we always stay up till midnight on launch day and we're there, both of us playing it.
And the last couple of releases of Forza Horizon, they've really gone all out on being themost accessible games they can possibly be.
And they've made a really big deal about it.
(09:26):
And they've driven on accessibility in the gaming world.
And there was the Xbox developer showcase last night and we've got a new Forza Horizongame coming in May.
And they did this 11 minute reel talking about the development of game, talking about howthey'd research Japan, which is where it's based this time, how they'd research car
(09:49):
culture and everything else, and how they've included all the accessibility they'd donebefore.
and more, how they are doing even more and they showed some of the stuff and I'm sittingthere and I mean I'm drooling over the sort of crazy...
yeah exactly and as soon as they said accessibility I'm like I knew there was a reason Iloved you guys I mean seriously I mean you just make me love the game even more
(10:19):
Yeah.
I mean, I use subtitles.
game studios, any of them that are going out of their way to put accessibility into theirgames to make sure that their content is available for people with varying abilities to
access it, to have that escape from the real world.
(10:41):
Like it is, like I get anime eyes, like those anime heart eyes every time I see them.
yeah.
Like, you're my new favorite, I love you.
Yeah, and when they also, when you're building your avatar and they allow you to havepeople with a limb missing or in a wheelchair and you're just like...
(11:03):
that representation making people feel seen.
Even like, okay, so this is slightly off topic of accessibility.
It's about inclusion.
African American hair is not greatly represented in video games.
When I saw Hogwarts Legacy and the fact that they had so many African American hairstylesthat they put actual texture into it, it's not the greatest, but it's there.
(11:33):
And that's the first step is just starting.
Like if you can just start, then you can just build.
And like, yes, like it makes my heart so happy when I see more and more of the real worldentering games.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(11:53):
It's just seeing the fact that...
we are seeing so much more content coming out that is designed to be more accessible andmore inclusive and it's just like you know what I'm here for that you make me so happy
I'll be I can be watching TV and they'll do something where accessibility is and my wifewill just look at me and she'll just know that I will be beaming I will be smiling so much
(12:22):
because it is amazing.
yeah.
So here's another accessibility feature of gaming.
The ability to turn off content that starts phobias.
So how many people have arachnophobia?
Did you know in Hogwarts Legacy, you can turn off the, like there's an arachnophobiasetting so that the spiders, because I mean Hogwarts, like
(12:50):
There's a whole bit about the spiders.
Like, you have the ability to flip that little toggle and now the spiders are like justthese black bobs or blops and they have like little spaghetti like things but on the ends
of their little spaghetti legs are skates.
Like it's the most hilarious looking thing I've ever seen.
(13:14):
But like I've been playing Baldur's Gate 3 with some friends.
And we made it to act two and act two.
I have tryptophobia.
Like I cannot stand.
Holes and things like I really can't.
Everywhere I looked like these trees and this act like everywhere.
And I was like, my God, my God, my God.
(13:34):
I'm like literally losing my mind.
It's like, can we please find somewhere where these trees are not?
Why is there no setting to turn this off?
This is insane.
Like as an artist.
I get it.
That is great content.
They did a fantastic job.
However, as somebody with tryptophobia, I want to go find the artists and bring theirnecks for not putting something in the game so that I could turn that off.
(13:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's an interesting one.
It really is.
But yeah.
So in your daily life, day to day, what, what, what's, what's accessibility look like inyour daily life?
What, what, what kind of, are there any things that you use day to day that are part ofyour daily life or?
(14:20):
I wouldn't necessarily say that I think of accessibility in a regular fashion.
It's not at the forefront of my brain.
It's one of these things that when I need it, it's nice if it's there.
It's nice if it's just built in and I don't have to think about it.
Or if I do have to think about it, it doesn't take much effort for me to deal with it.
(14:42):
Um, but since like the whole AI boom, like people get upset about AI, AI is going to takeour jobs.
AI is going to, to, you know, over run the earth and we're going to end up with Skynet andthe Terminator and you know, developers are going to be obsolete.
Like, okay.
Sure.
There might be situations and where theAI is better at doing the work of whatever needs to be done.
(15:11):
But the AI is, if you're using it right, it takes over the menial tasks that nobody wantsto do, that just drains you creatively and mentally and emotionally and gives that back to
you.
It gives you that time back so that you can now go do the human aspect of whatever it isthat you're doing.
And so for me,accessibility is having the ability to access AI in a way that I can, you know, I can do
(15:32):
the things that I need to do because having ADHD, tell you right now, not fun.
It can be fun.
But when you're on the hook for things and you're like, I just can't get through theanalysis paralysis.
I just can't get through likehow many options that are out there and I can't get over that hump.
(16:00):
Having AI there to be like, hey, help me just break this down into the smaller tasks thatI need to do.
Help me decide what needs to happen in order to get the job done.
Because right now I can't figure it out.
That to me is phenomenal.
That to me makes everything so much better.
And that is accessibility to me.
(16:21):
It is totally.
mean, that's what it's about.
It's about using the tools that are around to make your life a lot more accessible to youand stuff.
So, so yeah, no, I, yeah, I totally get that.
do.
So, so going onto the AI topic.
(16:42):
Mm-hmm.
Weird.
That never comes up.
So weird.
Yeah, I mean, I remember when like ChatGPT first launched in the big blast.
And I said to my boys at the time, this is the real deal now.
(17:03):
This is not another false start of AI.
And you're looking at...
a moment in time that will quite honestly be as big as Tim Berners-Lee inventing the WorldWide Web.
Yeah.
it and probably bigger because it's going to our daily lives a heck of a lot more.
And they're like, oh, not sure about not sure about that.
(17:25):
And now they're like, yeah, okay, we see it.
We kind of get it now.
And I think it I mean, it's fascinating watching the AI journey.
And I know we can all get a bit of a bit of AI bored, boredness, boredom.
BecauseEverybody, everything's about AI, but it is such fascinating topics.
(17:48):
So from, from, from, from your eyes, what's kind of been the positive and the negative ofAI that you've seen from an accessibility world over the last few years.
So, like I said, as soon as chat GPT became available for regular users to start using, Iimmediately signed up.
(18:11):
I was like, 100 % let's go.
I want in on this, let's go.
And so I've been paying the $20 a month since the beginning because I was like, let's go.
This is making my life so much easier.
So I've never been diagnosed with dyslexia or calc-dyscalculia or whatever it is.
But I know, like in, I can see something, I can see a number, I can see words, whatever.
(18:36):
I can see it, I know exactly what it is.
If I try to spit it out of my mouth, it'll get all mixed up and jumbled up.
But then when I go to like try and transpose the information, I get the informationcorrect.
It's just like it gets jumbled up and I don't know if that's the ADHD.
I don't know if it's dyslexia or dyscalculia or whatever.
But like I know that's something that happens for me.
(18:57):
Which has made my life really difficult when it comes to writing and it comes to producingcontent for you know when I started in that whole MBP space like I was writing blogs and I
was like whatWhat do I write about?
Like, I am super passionate about the things that I love.
Like, I will, I could talk to somebody about accessibility.
(19:18):
I could talk to somebody about data.
I could talk to somebody about building a Canvas app for weeks and months on end.
Like, not even stopping to take a breath.
Like, let's just talk about this forever.
But trying to write about it, it's just...
is so hard because again, analysis paralysis, where do I start?
(19:39):
How do I put this in a format that somebody's gonna understand?
How do I even like explain this, like break it down?
Because for me, talking to somebody and having that feedback from someone is really whereI can get the point across or I can help them start to understand something because I can
start to understand how they're understanding it.
(20:00):
And so then that like,It was really difficult for me to write my blog.
And so when I was like, all right, let's try this chat GPT thing.
Let's go out there.
Let's say this is what I want to talk about.
And I want to just create the bone structure for me because as long as it's got the bonestructure, I can fill in the content.
Like it was just, it was so hard to do.
(20:21):
Like just starting.
And so that was starting it for me.
like, it's been incredible.
Like it's made me able to create content where I had struggled to create content before.
So that was the good thing.
Another great thing is when they started allowing us to create custom GPTs.
Like I literally just opened it up.
The very first custom GPT that I ever made in chat GPT was a, ahalt text generator assistant.
(20:49):
very first one that I did.
was like, and it was, it was just for me.
I just wanted to be able, cause like I said, writing was hard for me.
Alt text for everybody, unless you are a writer and you just do this all the time is justhard.
Like how do you explain a picture?
Like I can see the picture.
What, what do I, what do I gotta say here?
(21:09):
Like how do I say this?
Like how do want to say this?
Do I want my alt text to be funny?
Do I want it to tell a story?
Do I want it?
So like, what is the alt text for and how do we like make it so that the content isworthwhile, whether or not you ever see it?
Like, cause for most people, they don't know that alt text even exists on a website.
(21:30):
But somebody using the screen reader, because they can't see the images on the screen orthings are just really fuzzy for them or you know.
people who use a screen reader because they're outside and it's really bright and theycan't see their phone screen so they have their phone like read it off to them.
any number of reasons why or hey your internet's not doing so hot so it can't load imagesbut you know what it can load is it can load that alt text.
(21:53):
So like alt text for me was hard but I was like no if I'm putting a picture online whetherit's LinkedIn, Twitter, Blue Sky, on my blog, whatever it is
I want alt text for this image and I want it to be available, whether it's the descriptionor it's alt text, whatever it is, I just want to be able to generate it I want to be able
to generate it quickly.
And so I created this alt text generator where I'd literally give it an image.
(22:15):
I'm like, hey, just provide a couple of options for me about what's in this image.
Because I mean, AI can start to see shapes and can see colors and it can describe thisthing for me.
why not do that?
It was a quick, easy one to make.
I made it available for the public and it got a little bit of traction.
(22:36):
I put it out on Twitter.
People started going out there and using it and it like I was using it all the timebecause literally anything I was like bloop alt text generator.
Here's my image.
Just give me something.
It didn't get right every time.
I can't tell you that there's been any time that I've evertaken exactly what I got from the alt text generator and just dropped it in there without
changing anything.
(22:58):
Because there are times I'm like, I don't know what you were seeing, but that wasdefinitely not that.
But it was close.
So I can make a couple of edits.
Yeah, it started it for me.
And then I think I put it on Blue Sky when Blue Sky had, like I had just pinned it to mypage on Blue Sky.
I went from 5,000 individual chats on that thing.
(23:21):
It blew up.
is now over 25,000 chats that people have had with my alt text generator.
that's insane.
Like 25,000 individual chats and these individual chats, they don't, it's not necessarilylike you send a message and it sends a message back.
(23:44):
No, like you can continue to have these chats and it like that just counts as one chatwhether you've only sent one image or you sent 300 images.
So there's no telling how much this thing has actually been used.
But it is incredible that 25,000 individual chats more than 25,000 have been used withthis thing.
Like that's fantastic.
(24:05):
Like people are out there using this to help them generate their alt text for theirimages, which means that there's more people out there making alt text for their images.
Which is brilliant.
That is, yeah.
No, that is absolutely phenomenal.
That is brilliant.
That is really cool.
The one thing for me, I just, want to make people's lives better.
(24:28):
Like, I worked as a public servant for 15 years.
Like, you can't be doing that for the money, because there's no money in it as a publicservant.
Like, there just isn't.
I wanted to make people's lives easier.
I wanted to do what I could, whether it was my inspectors, whether it was the people downthe hall for me trying to put data together to...
to be able to send that to somebody so somebody else could make a decision to help betterthe people of the state of Florida, whatever it was, I always wanted to do something that
(24:56):
changed people's lives for the better.
25,000 individual chats for alt text.
It's making somebody's life better.
Yeah, that is brilliant.
I mean, I mean, that is huge.
That is unbelievable.
That is just fantastic.
(25:18):
Rightly so.
Rightly so.
That is...
It's fantastic.
Like it went from 5,000 chats to now over 25,000 chats.
Because, and especially because the accessibility people, like those people on Blue Skywho just love accessibility, like it is in their DNA.
Like there are fanatics about it on there to the point like people would put up a picture.
(25:44):
on blue sky without any alt text and people would jump on him.
You need to be using alt text.
Why aren't you using alt text?
I'm like, whoa, okay, hold on.
Take a step back.
Let's take a breath.
This is a teaching moment.
Yeah, yeah, let's educate people.
mean, yeah, if they continue to do it after they've been educated, then yeah, we mightadminister a gentle slapping.
(26:11):
But yeah, no, that is a huge win.
That is phenomenal.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, do, do.
We'll get it out there even more.
See if we can...
uhIf I can get over a hundred thousand chats, I will cry.
I will literally just cry tears.
brilliant.
So, I mean, that really leads quite nicely on what would you see as the future ofaccessibility in an AI world?
(26:38):
mean, AI has grown so much in the last four years or however many years, I've lost count,I'm dreadful with time.
And the capabilities of...
Amazing.
So what would you say or see as accessibility in this AI world?
So I come from a different background of most developers, not within the Power Platform,because most developers within the Power Platform come from different backgrounds than
(27:04):
most developers.
I mean, we talked about Angeliki before this started.
I mean, she was a hairstylist before she got into development.
I mean, come on, that is so far.
from the realm of development.
Like it's fantastic.
That's one of the things that I love about this community is you get people from literallyall walks of life developing in the Power Platform.
(27:27):
ah That being said, I come from a different background.
I come from the business side, the public sector.
I was not in IT.
I called myself IT adjacent before I left because everybody would call me and like, I'mhaving this problem with my computer.
I don't want to call the service desk.
Nobody wants to the service desk.
I feel like my tickets never gonna get seen.
Can you help me like turn your computer off and on again?
(27:48):
But yeah, having people have access again, accessibility, having access, being able to dothe things that they need to do.
That's what I absolutely loved about Power Platform when I found it.
was like, holy cow.
Here's the thing where you don't have to know how to code.
You don't have to know C sharp.
You don't have to know Java, JavaScript, anything HTML, CSS, XML.
(28:11):
Like you don't need to know that.
in order to be able to build something that's going to help you do your job better.
You can just build it.
And while like you don't have to know how to build a database, you don't have to know howto, you know, put together a loop so that things happen.
Like you don't have to know all of these concepts for computer engineering in order tobuild something that's going to just make your job easier.
(28:39):
Like that, that was my shift.
from, technically my shift was learning SQL and SharePoint and HTML and CSS and all ofthat because ADHD, come on, I've got to have hobbies that I just dive all the way into.
But uh having the ability to like shift from the business user side of things andunderstanding the way the business works and understanding
(29:03):
We've got SOPs and we've got the way that the things just happen to being able to buildsomething because like I can develop this.
I can develop a solution that is now going to take this task that I had.
Like I give the example of one of the very first like aha moments of automation that I hadever built was a single button in Excel that I clicked.
(29:26):
And then I walked away from my computer for two hours because what it did is it kicked offa macro that opened up Internet Explorer that went to the EPA website, logged in with my
username and password, went to the very specific CSV.
Like there were 30 different CSV pages that I had to go visit so that could download thoseCSV files.
And then import them into the Excel.
(29:48):
and then verify it against the data that I imported from the week before and verify ifanything changed and then send all of this information out to a group of like 30 people to
verify every single week for three months at the beginning of the year.
Every Monday morning for two hours, I'd have to walk away from my computer, but it was asingle button click and it just automated all of that for me.
hours on a Monday where we were doing this all manually before that we would have to goout and we'd have to go to those individual sites and we'd have to click the CSV and
(30:17):
download it and then we parsing it out between the different groups and everybody washaving to like do things but then everybody's busy because they've got and it just I ended
up doing it and it was it fell to just me to get it done and then parse it out soeverybody else could still do their their work
And all I was parsing out was, these are the changes from last week.
Is this correct?
(30:37):
And they just had to check the changes.
That was it.
That was the QA, QC process for them.
Like I, my computer granted was doing its thing for two hours.
So I was out for two hours, but I could go do other things.
And then now I've got power apps and I can, instead of trying to go and like do all thiscrazy VBA macro.
bullshit, like, I can just do it in Power Apps.
(31:00):
I can go connect to the data source and I can just pull it in and I can interact with itright there.
And I don't have to like do all of this extra, like extracting and transforming and movingit all around.
Like, I can just do it in Power Apps.
And now AI, we can vibe code.
We can vibe code and we can build applications.
(31:22):
We don't have to know how to do any of this stuff.
Like, we need the smarts in order to understand what AI is doing.
But you can teach somebody.
It doesn't take a lot to teach somebody the concepts.
And if they can follow along, AI, like it's, I don't think AI is ever gonna be perfect.
Like, yeah, humans aren't perfect and humans are the ones that are coding the AI.
(31:45):
AI is going to get better.
Humans are going to get better.
Humans are going to change.
Their needs are going to change.
AI is going to need to change.
Like, we're constantly always going to be changing.
AI is constantly always going to be there.
Like, until the giant world EMP goes off and we lose access to computers, like, AI isalways going to be there.
Like, this is just, this is what we're doing.
(32:07):
This is what we're doing for a while.
Yeah.
And I think, I think the, the thing for me that, that I've really discovered is if youjust add a simple line to your AI prompt, make this compliant with WCAG 2.2 and ARIA.
One simple line and it won't be perfect.
It won't do everything.
(32:28):
but it will do more than the developers who would do nothing because they don't have timeto do it.
They don't know what they're doing.
They don't know what they should be doing.
You add that one line in there and I guarantee you it will be 90 % better than thedeveloper who did nothing.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
(32:49):
I know you totally asked me what's AI and accessibility supposed to do, I went off a wholetangent about AI is making development accessible.
It is, it is.
And it is crazy.
mean, it is blowing my mind at the moment, the stuff that I'm able to do, the stuff thatI'm seeing done with it.
And I mean, you you've got one right back there.
(33:10):
I've got one right here.
We're MVP's.
Like we have access to some of this stuff early, a lot earlier than the general public.
And we're able to see what's going on.
I I'm going to MVP some, I don't know about you, but I'm going to.
I'm also going to go and make a racket while I'm there because that's what I do.
I think last year I actually took a microphone in one of the sessions and I was like, no,this one's mine.
(33:32):
Everybody else can share.
This one's mine, I have lots of thoughts and feelings and you're gonna hear them.
Because a lot of my thoughts and feelings were around accessibility.
Yeah, yeah, it's quite funny.
I remember one year I went and I would be in nearly every session and I put my hand up andthey'd go, yeah, oh, there's Mike, let me guess accessibility.
(33:57):
And I'm like, yep, you guessed it, accessibility.
So it was just like, yeah, it was brilliant.
But OK, so what is Cat's?
One, two personal hot tips for accessibility.
What would you tell people right now?
(34:20):
here.
quick little backstory.
And I'm going to try to make this as quick as I can, little backstory.
Like I said, I worked in the state for 15 years.
We had accessibility drilled into us.
Anything that you are making needs to be accessible.
I did a career switch.
I was one of the career switchers that they were all, like Microsoft was all up aboutlike, hey, we need career switchers.
We want to highlight career switchers in the Power Platform, whatnot.
(34:43):
I went from...
public sector to private sector.
went from business user to developer.
Like I'd made that switch.
And I went to go work for an MSP.
Now MSP, basically if people don't know that that's a multi-service provider.
They do computer services for organizations who don't really have IT.
And when I got there,I was like, so what are we doing about accessibility?
(35:04):
They hated it.
They hate it.
I literally brought it up all the time.
I was like, we got to do like even the marketing team, because our marketing team was twopeople.
And I was like, guys.
Our website is not accessible.
We need to be doing something about that.
That's the face of the organization to the public.
We need to be doing something.
it's fine.
It's fine.
It's fine.
Right before I left and went to go work for another organization.
(35:26):
I get a phone call from the head of marketing and he's like, Hey, so I know you, talkedabout accessibility all the time, right?
And I was like, yeah, I'm pretty synonymous with that at this point.
and he goes, so found out that we're going to be included in like a top 500 organizationsthing and we need to make our website accessible.
I was like, Oh, really?
(35:46):
I mean, granted, yes, a private organization is not held to the same standards as a uhpublic organization.
A private organization can be sued in the US for not having accessible content or notmaking their services accessible.
They can be sued, but it's rare.
It's more public services if your content is not accessible, if access is just not there.
(36:09):
That's where a lot of the majority of lawsuits come from.
But I kept hammering on them.
I'm like, guys, you really need to consider accessibility when you're doing this.
We need to consider accessibility when we're creating our PowerPoints.
We need to consider accessibility when we're doing our webinars.
Literally all the time, I was like, how is this accessible?
What are we doing about accessibility?
And they were like, girl, stop it.
(36:30):
And then he's like, what can we do?
And I was like, all right.
And so all of that said.
This is what I told him.
Just start.
Like, just start.
It's not hard to get started.
If you have a website and somebody is complaining about it not being accessible, mainthings.
Alt text on all of your images, whatever you do, alt text.
(36:50):
Don't have large sections of italicized content.
Can't be read.
I was like,your colors, go to these websites, put in your website, your web address, and these
websites will tell you if your content is visible for colorblind people, if there's enoughcontrast.
Like, this is one thing I hated about this organization's logo, is you couldn't see it alot of time on white.
(37:13):
Right, yeah.
And I'm like, I mean, if you put it on on the blue background, it's great.
But on the white background, God, it hurts.
Like, and I can see a lot of colors.
I'm, I'm, I'm not going to say I'm a tetrachromat, but I feel like I'm very close to beinga tetrachromat.
Like I can see a lot of colors and I don't know if you've noticed, there's a lot of colorsaround me.
(37:33):
It makes my life so much happier.
And if I'm having a hard time struggling to see the colors, that's bad.
Yep.
So it's like, know you guys are not gonna change your logo.
That's never gonna happen.
But you can do things to make it so it's easier to see.
Like, give it a shadow.
Give it some sort of contrast.
Like, the contrast has to be there.
(37:54):
The colors have to be there.
You've gotta have alt text.
Don't have a bunch of italicized.
If you do that, you're well on your way to accessible content.
You're not there.
You're not 100 % there, ready to go.
But you are well on your way.
You are like 90 % of the way there.
And for the love of God, if you're making a video.
Put captions in there and make it so people can speed up and slow down your video.
(38:16):
Because if that is not there, I'm telling you right now, as somebody with ADHD, my brainliterally flies at a thousand miles an hour.
Like everything is going every direction, all the time, all at once.
If you are talking too slow in a training video, guess who's checked out of that trainingvideo after the first 30 seconds.
I'm not paying attention to this video.
Like give me the ability to speed it up.
(38:38):
It does not mean that I'm not getting the content.
It means that the content is now accessible for me to take it in and stay engaged.
But that being said, there are people out there who they can't keep up with that kind ofspeed.
They can't keep up with a normal pace.
They need it slowed down.
I'm not saying speed it up because I'm speedy.
I'm saying give us the ability to change the speed.
(39:01):
Whether it's got to be slowed down or it's got to be sped up regardless.
Because the best content creators that are out there, they can, you know, have a thing.
But ifI can't engage with it, I'm never gonna watch it.
and then we're gonna do it.
no, I 100 % agree on that.
mean, my wife will often say to me, she'll hear me watching videos and stuff.
I'm, I'm watching them.
(39:23):
I'll start at two, two and a half times speed, and then I can get faster and faster.
And my wife will come in and she'll be like, I have no idea how you cope with that.
I can't follow it.
And I'm like,I'm the same with audiobooks.
Yeah, I need it to be sped up, but give me the ability to slow it back down becausethere'll be times where I'm watching it and I'm like, whoa, wait a second.
(39:44):
That concept went way over my head.
Let me back it up and slow it down and go real slow here because all of the stuff thatcame before I got it.
Like I could sit there and I could write you a thesis statement.
Not not just by myself.
I'm going to use AI to do it, but I could write you a thesis statement on everything thatcame before.
But this point right here, I need to slow down, back it up.
(40:04):
take it slow.
now, okay, I'm with you now.
Okay, speed it back up.
Let's go.
Like the very first time I met Shane Young was at the first Power Platform Conference thatwas in Orlando.
And I was just like, hey Shane, like, my name's Cat, like I've been watching your videos,you really helped me get into the power platform and whatnot.
And he started talking, I was like, oh my God, you're talking so slow.
I'm gonna need you to speed it up a little bit.
(40:26):
I was just used to watching all of his videos at two times.
You kind of you kind of pressing and pressing and holding to see if it's double speeds itand yeah Yeah, I have actually done that I've been talking to people and I've kind of gone
like that and they're like what are you doing?
And I'm like, I'm trying to double your speed up because you're going too slow for me Butno awesome.
Well cat it has been an absolute delight having you as the first guestIt has been wonderful.
(40:53):
I've absolutely loved it.
It's been a complete enough to blast.
So thank you.
seen my smile this whole time, but I'm absolutely loving this content.
It is amazing and thank you so so much and thank you for sharing your experience, yourstories and yeah I look forward to seeing you in MVP Summit and uh
(41:21):
to create the accessibility corner in every session.
They're going to be like, uh, those two.
No, already know what you're going to say.
And I'm going be like, with me, the microphone, we have thoughts and feelings on this.
Yeah, but no it has been wonderful catching up with you and wonderful to have you as aguest on the podcast.
(41:43):
So thank you very much Cat Schneider.
Thank you.
And folks we will catch you on the next episode of the 365 Ally podcast.
So watch this space.
There will be another one coming soon.
So long everybody.
Bye.
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