May 8, 2026 • 32 mins
We talk with Leslie Campbell about surviving abuse, being incarcerated as a mother, and rebuilding a life through education, faith, and community. We name the harm mass incarceration does to families and push for a world where Black women are believed, protected, and free to thrive.
• Leslie’s testimony of self-defense, incarceration, and finding a way forward
• Education as the turning point for voice, self-esteem, and reentry success
• What Leslie sees when bringing hope and resources into women’s facilities
• Realities of incarceration at Rikers and upstate, including prison labor
• The impact of separation on children, mothers, and extended family caregivers
• Reentry guilt, family alienation, and the trauma of reunification
• Faith as survival in solitary confinement and a guide for restoration
• Practical ways churches can support incarcerated people and returning citizens
• Encouragement for mothers to practice grace and release perfection myths
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Download the Abolitionist Sanctuary Social Mobile app.
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Don't forget to become a member and subscribe to our mailing list at abolitionistsanctuary.org.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:05):
Welcome to the Abolitionist Sanctuary Podcast,
where we talk faith, abolition,and black motherhood.
I am your host, Reverend Dr.
Nikia Smith Robert, the founderand executive director of
Abolitionist Sanctuary.
We are a national coalitionleading a faith-based
(00:26):
abolitionist movement.
Thank you to our audio andvisual audiences for joining us
on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook,and all streaming platforms.
Let's build abolitionistsanctuaries together with this
critical and candid conversationfor today's episode.
(00:52):
Welcome to the AbolitionistSanctuary Podcast.
I'm so excited about thisepisode for Mother's Day and a
month in which we celebratemotherhood, but also raise
awareness around motherhood andmass incarceration.
We have a seen guest with ustoday, Leslie Campbell, who I'm
(01:14):
excited to introduce to you.
Leslie was founded a place ofhope in the work that she has
done with College and CommunityFellowship after leaving prison.
She works as a psychotherapistat the Interborough
Developmental and ConsultationCenter's Cannarsi Clinic and has
previously held roles as ahealthcare homes coordinator,
(01:36):
supervisor at Housing Works, anda senior case manager at Faces
New York Incorporated Women'sSupport Center.
In addition to running her ownjewelry business, Leslie is a
licensed mental health counselorwith a master's degree in
forensic mental healthcounseling from John Jay College
of Criminal Justice.
Her accolades include the CalvinMiles Award from the New York
(01:59):
City Mayor's Office, Worth'sSusan Hallett Reentry Ward, and
membership in the Phi Theta,Kappa, and Chai Alpha Epsilon
Honor Societies.
Since joining the Theater forChange, Social Change in 2007,
Leslie has performed at variousvenues, including College and
(02:20):
Community Fellowships 10thAnniversary Gala and the WK
Kellogg Foundation's HealingAmerica Conference.
Leslie is also a proud mother oftwo.
Join me in welcoming LeslieCampbell to the show.
Welcome, Leslie.
Thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.
And it just seems happens thatnot only are you my guests, but
(02:42):
we are also family.
We worked together at anonprofit and didn't know that
we were cousins.
This was many, many years ago.
And sure enough, we found out.
We found out.
So as you introduce yourself,Leslie, can you let us know what
are your pronouns?
Give us a visual of how you arepresenting in this space and
(03:05):
tell us who are your people.
SPEAKER_02 (03:07):
My pronouns are she and her.
And I really basicallyrepresenting, you know, mothers
and all individuals whopersevere through a struggle.
And I want to representindividuals who have faced
(03:30):
adversity and want them to knowthat your past doesn't make your
future, basically.
I really, really hope thatsomeone could benefit from my
testimony.
And when I say someone, I meaneveryone, basically.
SPEAKER_01 (03:51):
Yeah.
Thank you.
And you are presenting yourself.
You have blonde hair.
Are you wearing a necklace?
You have all the cream andblack, blue sweater with a
necklace and green camisol, butwith a wonderful background that
looks like your home.
My pronouns are she and hers.
(04:11):
And I'm presenting an Africangarb that is orange and blue
prominently, with Africanearrings that are red, green,
and yellow, and cowory shells inthe middle, with boho blonde
braids, red lipstick, and theAvalanche Sanctuary podcast
backdrop behind me.
(04:33):
So you mentioned your testimony.
Tell us what is your testimony,Leslie?
SPEAKER_02 (04:39):
I don't want to tell my age, but I want to say 1998.
I was in an abusiverelationship, and my self-esteem
was at a low place.
And I hadn't figured out what Iwant to do with myself.
And I was involved with anindividual who really didn't
(05:02):
care about me, needless to say,himself.
And he assaulted me and I foughtback, and I ended up going to
prison.
And it was very devastating as amom, as a woman, as someone who
(05:22):
didn't have representation,money to defend myself.
At the time, it felt like I wasat my very lowest in life.
However, when I look back at thepicture and realized what I went
through, I feel like at thattime God had rescued me and
(05:45):
brought me through, delivered mefrom a place where I shouldn't
have been.
But I learned from theexperience.
And after I came home, I wasintroduced to education.
I decided to go back to schooland get a degree.
And my initial plans were justto get an associate's degree.
(06:09):
And at that time, I didn't evenknow what it meant to have a
degree because no one in mymaternal family at the time had
gone to college and finished.
There were a few who had startedcollege, but none who had gone
and gotten a degree.
There were some individuals onmy father's side of my family
(06:32):
who had and, you know, areeducated, but I was closer to my
maternal family at the time.
When I came home and went backto school, I want to say
education is what gave me myvoice, gave me my life back,
gave me my self-esteem, gave methe opportunity to be a better
(06:55):
mother for my child and be abetter person to myself.
And once I started working andbecoming educated, I wanted more
for myself.
I wanted more for my family.
And I continued.
And I started aspiring to growand learn more from the women I
(07:15):
was around.
And I was around women who wereformerly incarcerated, who had
gone back to school and gottendegrees in several areas like
social work, HR management,human services, accounting.
And these women were doing theirthings.
And I was very proud of them andI was very motivated.
(07:38):
And it was something that wasnot even on my radar, that I it
wasn't where I thought my lifewas going to be at the time.
SPEAKER_01 (07:51):
Yeah, that's quite a testimony of.
SPEAKER_02 (14:59):
People going to prisons, and some people learn
how to be better criminals whenthey're in prison.
Very few people come out withinformation and education to be
a better person.
But there are organizations,there are individuals, there are
programs, not very many, butthere are some that help people
(15:23):
in prison.
I used to go into the prisons, Iused to take the message into
the prisons.
I used to do recruitment forcollege and community
fellowship.
I used to do recruitment fordress for success.
I used to do recruitment forFortune Society.
And taking the message to thesewomen in there and letting them
know that when they get out,they can have a life.
(15:45):
They can begin again.
This does not have to definethem that they ended up in
prison.
And one of the most beautifulthings that I've experienced was
a young lady who wrote me aletter after I had did a group
in Rikers Island for Dress forSuccess.
(16:07):
And she wrote me the mostbeautiful letter, and I gave it
to the director of Dress forSuccess.
And when she came out, she cameto the organization and she got
clothing for a job interview.
But it the letter ofappreciation was so beautiful.
(16:33):
When I would be inside theschool at Rose and Singers, and
women would find out that I wasin the building, they would all
sign up to come down, and theywere eager to hear a message of
hope.
So there are individuals inthere that want better for
themselves.
It's just that our system is notoffering it.
SPEAKER_01 (16:56):
Yes.
And just for clarification, RoseM.
Singer is the women's facilityof Rikers Island.
Exactly.
So talk to us about yourexperience in prison.
Where were you incarcerated andwhat services did you need when
you were inside?
SPEAKER_02 (17:15):
Okay, so when I went, I spent two years and I
spent eight months on RikersIsland, eight months upstate in
Albion, and eight months inBeacon Correctional Facility.
And Rose and Singers, RikersIsland is really a detainee
center.
Like that's before you getsentenced and you're fighting
(17:38):
your case.
So I spent eight months there.
After I took a plea, because Ididn't go to trial, I was scared
to death, didn't know better.
I went upstate.
And when I went to AlbionCorrectional Facility, which is
one of the facilities upstatefor women, they did have
programs up there.
(17:58):
And I think I did a drug programup there, ASAP, but whatever.
And then I was sent down to awork camp in Fishkill near
Beacon, New York.
And the state of New York usedthe inmates to do work for them.
(18:20):
Not only did we have cowpastures, clean graveyards,
clean the correctional uhofficers, living quarters, they
had women working for theDepartment of Motor Vehicles,
answering telephones as customerservice reps, making braille
(18:41):
books, and also making corecraft cabinets and all kinds of
stuff.
Yeah.
Women are being trained and mentoo with skills while they're in
prison, but paid what, 14 centsan hour?
SPEAKER_01 (18:57):
Is that yeah.
What can you share about theimpact of mass incarceration on
motherhood?
SPEAKER_02 (19:05):
Oh my goodness.
The impact it had on my child.
My daughter was two when I left.
And I cried day and night, dayand night.
Had her picture on my locker,and she was with my mom by the
grace of God, no HCS case, orshe just was with my mom.
(19:27):
And I felt so guilty that Ididn't even want my mom
traveling eight hours upstate,bringing my daughter to come see
me.
So when they transferred me toBeacon, the work camp, which is
only about an hour on the MetroNorth from New York City, again,
(19:47):
I just felt so blessed.
And my mom brought my baby tosee me.
It was a blessing, but it alsowas hard because when she came
to see me, they had these picnictables.
We were able to be outside.
We had a grill, we had hot dogsand stuff.
But when it was time to go, theyhad to fry her from me because
(20:11):
she didn't want to let me go.
And it was so devastating.
And when I first came home andgot my first apartment, my
daughter used to sleep with meevery day until she was about 13
because she did not want to letme go and lose me ever again.
SPEAKER_00 (20:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:32):
Ever again.
And we have a beautifulrelationship to this day.
Yeah.
Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_01 (20:41):
I really appreciate you sharing that and the
vulnerability it takes to namethe separation anxiety, right?
And there are cases wheremothers don't have the
supportive system ofgrandmothers, right?
One, it's it's theresponsibility that is shifted
to the grandmother that can bevery hard.
(21:02):
And for those who don't havethat support system and have to
navigate going through childservices and family
reunification process.
And what I learned also is thatfor women who have longer
sentences, they become alienatedfrom their families.
And it's hard.
Absolutely.
(21:23):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (21:24):
I've had women tell me upon release that they would
prefer to leave their childrenwhere they're at and prefer not
to get custody of them back andprefer not to infiltrate their
lives.
And I and at the time of like,are you what?
(21:44):
What do you mean you don't wantyour child back in your life?
And it's traumatic, actually.
I've had several women tell methat they don't want to disrupt
the lives of their childrenbecause of we're They're at and
they felt so guilty becausemaybe their recidivism in their
(22:06):
lives were for me, it was oneand done.
I went to prison, I was it.
You have to, you don't have toever worry about me doing
anything ever again to getlocked up.
But you said it's a lifestyle,it's a lifestyle, and you know,
and even them.
I tell people we fall down, butwe get up.
(22:26):
It does not define you.
It's hard, but you can do it.
SPEAKER_01 (22:31):
You can do it, you know, you can do it.
We are not the summation of ourmistakes, right?
Our mistakes, and and that'salso a very religious message,
too.
It's this idea of restorationthat we are all created in the
image of God, but that we allfall short of the glory of God.
And so can you share with us howdoes religion inform and help
(22:56):
you navigate these struggles andlive in the life that you have
built now with successes andthriving beyond incarceration?
SPEAKER_02 (23:06):
Well, for me, I was in prison and I was locked up in
lock.
It's called the box, solitaryconfinement.
Yeah.
And I had the opportunity toread the Bible in the Quran
front to back.
And that was the first placethat I learned to appreciate
(23:29):
God.
Really appreciate mygrandmother, it was religious.
Both of them went to churchdaily every week.
Faithful, you know, I come froma religious, faithful, religious
family, even though maybe Iwasn't so much as a young lady,
but I know that there's a God.
And I also know that God has notturned his back on me.
(23:52):
And I also realized that in thatmoment where I felt like I was
at my lowest, that's the onlything that got me through was
those conversations I had withGod in the middle of the night
when I was by myself in thatcell.
When I could close my eyes andhear the rain and smell the rain
and feel like the cleansingwhile I was in a cot in the
(24:15):
corner and just freeing my mindbecause I refused to let these
people break me.
SPEAKER_01 (24:21):
Yeah.
You talked about the programsthat help people.
What can churches do to goinside and help people who are
incarcerated?
SPEAKER_02 (24:31):
Actually, there was a program in the church called
Kairos.
Um Kairos on the inside, Kairoson the outside.
I actually was able to do aspiritual retreat with them when
I came home up at the PassionistInstitute retreat on one
weekend.
It was a beautiful thing.
They treated about 20 of uswomen to a wonderful weekend
(24:53):
where we just prayed andfellowship.
It was so beautiful and theytreated us so lovely.
But religious organizations,there aren't a few, like I said,
Kairos, that's one of them.
SPEAKER_01 (25:06):
A bad rap where some women think they only churches
come in to lead their Biblestudies, but perhaps aren't as
receptive when women arere-entering society.
I don't think so.
SPEAKER_02 (25:17):
Because I feel like the representatives that are in
the prisons that are religiousrepresentatives, the women do
genuinely appreciate them.
That's good to know.
I just don't think there'senough of them.
That's excellent to know.
So and I just don't think thatthe access, the New York, you
(25:38):
know, the state, the systemdoesn't like I think at one
time, out of all the New YorkState prisoners, there were only
eight that had a college programat one point.
So it's not that they're notthere, it's just not enough.
SPEAKER_01 (25:54):
Yeah.
And in addition to that,education was the leading factor
to reduce recidivism, yet therewere only those eight facilities
with education programs.
So question for this interview,and then we'll go into a rapid
round.
SPEAKER_02 (26:09):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (26:10):
Leslie, Mother's Day is this month, and you're a
mother, I'm a mother.
This episode is about motherhoodand mass incarceration.
Thank you for sharing yourexperiences.
But if you could end thisinterview to talk to other
mothers who share some of yourstruggles, what would you say to
(26:30):
them to empower, encourage, andequip them to have hope beyond
poverty, punishment, policing,and prisons?
SPEAKER_02 (26:38):
I would say to mothers to give themselves some
grace, to be kind to yourself,to love on yourself a little bit
more.
Stop being so hard onyourselves.
You know, give yourself somegrace because as mothers, I
think that they're too hard onthemselves as parents.
(27:01):
I think that this whole idea ofthe perfect parent, right?
And the people writing books onparenting, and I'm a mother of
two, and I love my relationshipwith my children, and I feel
like I raised them the best Icould.
Even though I may have lost twoyears in my daughter's life in
the beginning, I don't feel likeshe's lost anything because she
(27:24):
had my mom, right?
She had my tribe, she hadpeople.
I had to go through what I hadto go through so I can learn.
And I feel like I have noregrets.
I have no regrets, and I feellike I've grown and learned.
And some of the experiences thatI had with her allowed me and
(27:48):
prepared me to be even a greaterparent for my son.
unknown (27:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (27:53):
Not saying I treated him any better than I treated
her.
I love them equally.
You know, there's no favoritechild, and there's no perfect
parenting.
I would not recommend someone tobuy a book on how to be a
parent.
I would tell them to givethemselves grace and to believe
(28:15):
in themselves and to believethat the creator is going to
give you what you need.
So many people want what theywant when they want it.
They don't want to givethemselves grace.
They don't want to givethemselves time to allow them.
And they start worrying andhaving anxiety for nothing.
(28:37):
It's easy for me to say that,but I truly mean it because
there's times where my pantry'sgoing to run low, but I don't
worry about it because I knowthat there's a God that's going
to provide for me.
My family, I really don't worry.
Yes.
Oh, I don't worry about my kidsor grandkids being hungry
(28:59):
because I know there's a Godthat's going to provide.
But to tell that to somebodywho's in the struggle, it's
easier to say than to make thembelieve.
And sometimes it hurts me whenthey get angry, like, whatever,
Miss Campbell, okay, whatever.
Oh, but I really mean it from myheart.
SPEAKER_00 (29:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (29:18):
That this too shall pass, that everything we go
through is not permanent.
SPEAKER_01 (29:23):
Thank you for that.
Not only are you encouragingmothers, but that encourages
everyone that this too shallpass, that trouble doesn't last
always, that we could be gentlewith ourselves and have grace,
and that the summation of ourgreatest mistakes do not define
us, that God still loves us,that God sees us as God's good
(29:44):
creation, created in God'simage, and that there is a
system that is designed andstacked up against us.
Even when we are trying todefend our body and our dignity,
we are punished.
In what world should a woman bepunished for trying to protect
herself from her abuser?
(30:05):
The system has to change.
Societal perceptions have tochange.
We have to believe black women,protect black women, and ensure
black women can live free andthrive in a life beyond prisons
and policing.
Thank you so much, Leslie.
I really appreciate all that youshared with us today.
This is my favorite part of theinterview.
(30:25):
It's called a rapid round.
I'm gonna say a question, aword, and you give me the first
thing that comes to mind.
Okay, so just a phrase, just oneword.
Okay, just one word, okay?
SPEAKER_00 (30:37):
Motherhood, love, Barlow.
Love favorite food.
SPEAKER_01 (30:48):
True.
Favorite artist, Andrea Day.
Favorite color, blue, favoritething to do.
Run.
Figured.
Greatest fear.
Rat.
(31:11):
Turn up or Netflix and chill.
Netflix and chill.
And finally, abolitionistsanctuary.
SPEAKER_02 (31:20):
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (31:21):
Thank you for this conversation.
Thank you.
I love you, Crossman.
I love you too.
Thank you.
Thank you to our viewers andlisteners for joining this
conversation on the AbolitionistSanctuary podcast.
Please download and share on allplatforms.
Again, I am your host, ReverendDr.
Nakia Smith Robert, the founderand executive director of
(31:45):
Abolitionist Sanctuary.
Follow us on YouTube, Instagram,Facebook, and download our
social mobile app.
Y'all on Facebook and Instagram,and y'all can be on our social
mobile app.
Download the AbolitionistSanctuary Social Mobile app.
Also enroll in our courses andbecome certified at
abolitionacademy.com.
Don't forget to become a memberand subscribe to our mailing
(32:07):
list atabolitionistsanctuary.org.
And as we conclude this episode,remember that abolition is not
only a practice, but it is a wayof life.
And for me, abolition is myreligion.
Let's lead a faith basedabolitionist movement together.
Leslie, thank you so much forbeing here.
Thank you.
Welcome to the Abolitionist Sanctuary Podcast,
where we talk faith, abolition,and black motherhood.
I am your host, Reverend Dr.
Nikia Smith Robert, the founderand executive director of
Abolitionist Sanctuary.
We are a national coalitionleading a faith-based
(00:26):
abolitionist movement.
Thank you to our audio andvisual audiences for joining us
on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook,and all streaming platforms.
Let's build abolitionistsanctuaries together with this
critical and candid conversationfor today's episode.
(00:52):
Welcome to the AbolitionistSanctuary Podcast.
I'm so excited about thisepisode for Mother's Day and a
month in which we celebratemotherhood, but also raise
awareness around motherhood andmass incarceration.
We have a seen guest with ustoday, Leslie Campbell, who I'm
(01:14):
excited to introduce to you.
Leslie was founded a place ofhope in the work that she has
done with College and CommunityFellowship after leaving prison.
She works as a psychotherapistat the Interborough
Developmental and ConsultationCenter's Cannarsi Clinic and has
previously held roles as ahealthcare homes coordinator,
(01:36):
supervisor at Housing Works, anda senior case manager at Faces
New York Incorporated Women'sSupport Center.
In addition to running her ownjewelry business, Leslie is a
licensed mental health counselorwith a master's degree in
forensic mental healthcounseling from John Jay College
of Criminal Justice.
Her accolades include the CalvinMiles Award from the New York
(01:59):
City Mayor's Office, Worth'sSusan Hallett Reentry Ward, and
membership in the Phi Theta,Kappa, and Chai Alpha Epsilon
Honor Societies.
Since joining the Theater forChange, Social Change in 2007,
Leslie has performed at variousvenues, including College and
(02:20):
Community Fellowships 10thAnniversary Gala and the WK
Kellogg Foundation's HealingAmerica Conference.
Leslie is also a proud mother oftwo.
Join me in welcoming LeslieCampbell to the show.
Welcome, Leslie.
Thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.
And it just seems happens thatnot only are you my guests, but
(02:42):
we are also family.
We worked together at anonprofit and didn't know that
we were cousins.
This was many, many years ago.
And sure enough, we found out.
We found out.
So as you introduce yourself,Leslie, can you let us know what
are your pronouns?
Give us a visual of how you arepresenting in this space and
(03:05):
tell us who are your people.
SPEAKER_02 (03:07):
My pronouns are she and her.
And I really basicallyrepresenting, you know, mothers
and all individuals whopersevere through a struggle.
And I want to representindividuals who have faced
(03:30):
adversity and want them to knowthat your past doesn't make your
future, basically.
I really, really hope thatsomeone could benefit from my
testimony.
And when I say someone, I meaneveryone, basically.
SPEAKER_01 (03:51):
Yeah.
Thank you.
And you are presenting yourself.
You have blonde hair.
Are you wearing a necklace?
You have all the cream andblack, blue sweater with a
necklace and green camisol, butwith a wonderful background that
looks like your home.
My pronouns are she and hers.
(04:11):
And I'm presenting an Africangarb that is orange and blue
prominently, with Africanearrings that are red, green,
and yellow, and cowory shells inthe middle, with boho blonde
braids, red lipstick, and theAvalanche Sanctuary podcast
backdrop behind me.
(04:33):
So you mentioned your testimony.
Tell us what is your testimony,Leslie?
SPEAKER_02 (04:39):
I don't want to tell my age, but I want to say 1998.
I was in an abusiverelationship, and my self-esteem
was at a low place.
And I hadn't figured out what Iwant to do with myself.
And I was involved with anindividual who really didn't
(05:02):
care about me, needless to say,himself.
And he assaulted me and I foughtback, and I ended up going to
prison.
And it was very devastating as amom, as a woman, as someone who
(05:22):
didn't have representation,money to defend myself.
At the time, it felt like I wasat my very lowest in life.
However, when I look back at thepicture and realized what I went
through, I feel like at thattime God had rescued me and
(05:45):
brought me through, delivered mefrom a place where I shouldn't
have been.
But I learned from theexperience.
And after I came home, I wasintroduced to education.
I decided to go back to schooland get a degree.
And my initial plans were justto get an associate's degree.
(06:09):
And at that time, I didn't evenknow what it meant to have a
degree because no one in mymaternal family at the time had
gone to college and finished.
There were a few who had startedcollege, but none who had gone
and gotten a degree.
There were some individuals onmy father's side of my family
(06:32):
who had and, you know, areeducated, but I was closer to my
maternal family at the time.
When I came home and went backto school, I want to say
education is what gave me myvoice, gave me my life back,
gave me my self-esteem, gave methe opportunity to be a better
(06:55):
mother for my child and be abetter person to myself.
And once I started working andbecoming educated, I wanted more
for myself.
I wanted more for my family.
And I continued.
And I started aspiring to growand learn more from the women I
(07:15):
was around.
And I was around women who wereformerly incarcerated, who had
gone back to school and gottendegrees in several areas like
social work, HR management,human services, accounting.
And these women were doing theirthings.
And I was very proud of them andI was very motivated.
(07:38):
And it was something that wasnot even on my radar, that I it
wasn't where I thought my lifewas going to be at the time.
SPEAKER_01 (07:51):
Yeah, that's quite a testimony of.
SPEAKER_02 (14:59):
People going to prisons, and some people learn
how to be better criminals whenthey're in prison.
Very few people come out withinformation and education to be
a better person.
But there are organizations,there are individuals, there are
programs, not very many, butthere are some that help people
(15:23):
in prison.
I used to go into the prisons, Iused to take the message into
the prisons.
I used to do recruitment forcollege and community
fellowship.
I used to do recruitment fordress for success.
I used to do recruitment forFortune Society.
And taking the message to thesewomen in there and letting them
know that when they get out,they can have a life.
(15:45):
They can begin again.
This does not have to definethem that they ended up in
prison.
And one of the most beautifulthings that I've experienced was
a young lady who wrote me aletter after I had did a group
in Rikers Island for Dress forSuccess.
(16:07):
And she wrote me the mostbeautiful letter, and I gave it
to the director of Dress forSuccess.
And when she came out, she cameto the organization and she got
clothing for a job interview.
But it the letter ofappreciation was so beautiful.
(16:33):
When I would be inside theschool at Rose and Singers, and
women would find out that I wasin the building, they would all
sign up to come down, and theywere eager to hear a message of
hope.
So there are individuals inthere that want better for
themselves.
It's just that our system is notoffering it.
SPEAKER_01 (16:56):
Yes.
And just for clarification, RoseM.
Singer is the women's facilityof Rikers Island.
Exactly.
So talk to us about yourexperience in prison.
Where were you incarcerated andwhat services did you need when
you were inside?
SPEAKER_02 (17:15):
Okay, so when I went, I spent two years and I
spent eight months on RikersIsland, eight months upstate in
Albion, and eight months inBeacon Correctional Facility.
And Rose and Singers, RikersIsland is really a detainee
center.
Like that's before you getsentenced and you're fighting
(17:38):
your case.
So I spent eight months there.
After I took a plea, because Ididn't go to trial, I was scared
to death, didn't know better.
I went upstate.
And when I went to AlbionCorrectional Facility, which is
one of the facilities upstatefor women, they did have
programs up there.
(17:58):
And I think I did a drug programup there, ASAP, but whatever.
And then I was sent down to awork camp in Fishkill near
Beacon, New York.
And the state of New York usedthe inmates to do work for them.
(18:20):
Not only did we have cowpastures, clean graveyards,
clean the correctional uhofficers, living quarters, they
had women working for theDepartment of Motor Vehicles,
answering telephones as customerservice reps, making braille
(18:41):
books, and also making corecraft cabinets and all kinds of
stuff.
Yeah.
Women are being trained and mentoo with skills while they're in
prison, but paid what, 14 centsan hour?
SPEAKER_01 (18:57):
Is that yeah.
What can you share about theimpact of mass incarceration on
motherhood?
SPEAKER_02 (19:05):
Oh my goodness.
The impact it had on my child.
My daughter was two when I left.
And I cried day and night, dayand night.
Had her picture on my locker,and she was with my mom by the
grace of God, no HCS case, orshe just was with my mom.
(19:27):
And I felt so guilty that Ididn't even want my mom
traveling eight hours upstate,bringing my daughter to come see
me.
So when they transferred me toBeacon, the work camp, which is
only about an hour on the MetroNorth from New York City, again,
(19:47):
I just felt so blessed.
And my mom brought my baby tosee me.
It was a blessing, but it alsowas hard because when she came
to see me, they had these picnictables.
We were able to be outside.
We had a grill, we had hot dogsand stuff.
But when it was time to go, theyhad to fry her from me because
(20:11):
she didn't want to let me go.
And it was so devastating.
And when I first came home andgot my first apartment, my
daughter used to sleep with meevery day until she was about 13
because she did not want to letme go and lose me ever again.
SPEAKER_00 (20:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:32):
Ever again.
And we have a beautifulrelationship to this day.
Yeah.
Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_01 (20:41):
I really appreciate you sharing that and the
vulnerability it takes to namethe separation anxiety, right?
And there are cases wheremothers don't have the
supportive system ofgrandmothers, right?
One, it's it's theresponsibility that is shifted
to the grandmother that can bevery hard.
(21:02):
And for those who don't havethat support system and have to
navigate going through childservices and family
reunification process.
And what I learned also is thatfor women who have longer
sentences, they become alienatedfrom their families.
And it's hard.
Absolutely.
(21:23):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (21:24):
I've had women tell me upon release that they would
prefer to leave their childrenwhere they're at and prefer not
to get custody of them back andprefer not to infiltrate their
lives.
And I and at the time of like,are you what?
(21:44):
What do you mean you don't wantyour child back in your life?
And it's traumatic, actually.
I've had several women tell methat they don't want to disrupt
the lives of their childrenbecause of we're They're at and
they felt so guilty becausemaybe their recidivism in their
(22:06):
lives were for me, it was oneand done.
I went to prison, I was it.
You have to, you don't have toever worry about me doing
anything ever again to getlocked up.
But you said it's a lifestyle,it's a lifestyle, and you know,
and even them.
I tell people we fall down, butwe get up.
(22:26):
It does not define you.
It's hard, but you can do it.
SPEAKER_01 (22:31):
You can do it, you know, you can do it.
We are not the summation of ourmistakes, right?
Our mistakes, and and that'salso a very religious message,
too.
It's this idea of restorationthat we are all created in the
image of God, but that we allfall short of the glory of God.
And so can you share with us howdoes religion inform and help
(22:56):
you navigate these struggles andlive in the life that you have
built now with successes andthriving beyond incarceration?
SPEAKER_02 (23:06):
Well, for me, I was in prison and I was locked up in
lock.
It's called the box, solitaryconfinement.
Yeah.
And I had the opportunity toread the Bible in the Quran
front to back.
And that was the first placethat I learned to appreciate
(23:29):
God.
Really appreciate mygrandmother, it was religious.
Both of them went to churchdaily every week.
Faithful, you know, I come froma religious, faithful, religious
family, even though maybe Iwasn't so much as a young lady,
but I know that there's a God.
And I also know that God has notturned his back on me.
(23:52):
And I also realized that in thatmoment where I felt like I was
at my lowest, that's the onlything that got me through was
those conversations I had withGod in the middle of the night
when I was by myself in thatcell.
When I could close my eyes andhear the rain and smell the rain
and feel like the cleansingwhile I was in a cot in the
(24:15):
corner and just freeing my mindbecause I refused to let these
people break me.
SPEAKER_01 (24:21):
Yeah.
You talked about the programsthat help people.
What can churches do to goinside and help people who are
incarcerated?
SPEAKER_02 (24:31):
Actually, there was a program in the church called
Kairos.
Um Kairos on the inside, Kairoson the outside.
I actually was able to do aspiritual retreat with them when
I came home up at the PassionistInstitute retreat on one
weekend.
It was a beautiful thing.
They treated about 20 of uswomen to a wonderful weekend
(24:53):
where we just prayed andfellowship.
It was so beautiful and theytreated us so lovely.
But religious organizations,there aren't a few, like I said,
Kairos, that's one of them.
SPEAKER_01 (25:06):
A bad rap where some women think they only churches
come in to lead their Biblestudies, but perhaps aren't as
receptive when women arere-entering society.
I don't think so.
SPEAKER_02 (25:17):
Because I feel like the representatives that are in
the prisons that are religiousrepresentatives, the women do
genuinely appreciate them.
That's good to know.
I just don't think there'senough of them.
That's excellent to know.
So and I just don't think thatthe access, the New York, you
(25:38):
know, the state, the systemdoesn't like I think at one
time, out of all the New YorkState prisoners, there were only
eight that had a college programat one point.
So it's not that they're notthere, it's just not enough.
SPEAKER_01 (25:54):
Yeah.
And in addition to that,education was the leading factor
to reduce recidivism, yet therewere only those eight facilities
with education programs.
So question for this interview,and then we'll go into a rapid
round.
SPEAKER_02 (26:09):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (26:10):
Leslie, Mother's Day is this month, and you're a
mother, I'm a mother.
This episode is about motherhoodand mass incarceration.
Thank you for sharing yourexperiences.
But if you could end thisinterview to talk to other
mothers who share some of yourstruggles, what would you say to
(26:30):
them to empower, encourage, andequip them to have hope beyond
poverty, punishment, policing,and prisons?
SPEAKER_02 (26:38):
I would say to mothers to give themselves some
grace, to be kind to yourself,to love on yourself a little bit
more.
Stop being so hard onyourselves.
You know, give yourself somegrace because as mothers, I
think that they're too hard onthemselves as parents.
(27:01):
I think that this whole idea ofthe perfect parent, right?
And the people writing books onparenting, and I'm a mother of
two, and I love my relationshipwith my children, and I feel
like I raised them the best Icould.
Even though I may have lost twoyears in my daughter's life in
the beginning, I don't feel likeshe's lost anything because she
(27:24):
had my mom, right?
She had my tribe, she hadpeople.
I had to go through what I hadto go through so I can learn.
And I feel like I have noregrets.
I have no regrets, and I feellike I've grown and learned.
And some of the experiences thatI had with her allowed me and
(27:48):
prepared me to be even a greaterparent for my son.
unknown (27:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (27:53):
Not saying I treated him any better than I treated
her.
I love them equally.
You know, there's no favoritechild, and there's no perfect
parenting.
I would not recommend someone tobuy a book on how to be a
parent.
I would tell them to givethemselves grace and to believe
(28:15):
in themselves and to believethat the creator is going to
give you what you need.
So many people want what theywant when they want it.
They don't want to givethemselves grace.
They don't want to givethemselves time to allow them.
And they start worrying andhaving anxiety for nothing.
(28:37):
It's easy for me to say that,but I truly mean it because
there's times where my pantry'sgoing to run low, but I don't
worry about it because I knowthat there's a God that's going
to provide for me.
My family, I really don't worry.
Yes.
Oh, I don't worry about my kidsor grandkids being hungry
(28:59):
because I know there's a Godthat's going to provide.
But to tell that to somebodywho's in the struggle, it's
easier to say than to make thembelieve.
And sometimes it hurts me whenthey get angry, like, whatever,
Miss Campbell, okay, whatever.
Oh, but I really mean it from myheart.
SPEAKER_00 (29:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (29:18):
That this too shall pass, that everything we go
through is not permanent.
SPEAKER_01 (29:23):
Thank you for that.
Not only are you encouragingmothers, but that encourages
everyone that this too shallpass, that trouble doesn't last
always, that we could be gentlewith ourselves and have grace,
and that the summation of ourgreatest mistakes do not define
us, that God still loves us,that God sees us as God's good
(29:44):
creation, created in God'simage, and that there is a
system that is designed andstacked up against us.
Even when we are trying todefend our body and our dignity,
we are punished.
In what world should a woman bepunished for trying to protect
herself from her abuser?
(30:05):
The system has to change.
Societal perceptions have tochange.
We have to believe black women,protect black women, and ensure
black women can live free andthrive in a life beyond prisons
and policing.
Thank you so much, Leslie.
I really appreciate all that youshared with us today.
This is my favorite part of theinterview.
(30:25):
It's called a rapid round.
I'm gonna say a question, aword, and you give me the first
thing that comes to mind.
Okay, so just a phrase, just oneword.
Okay, just one word, okay?
SPEAKER_00 (30:37):
Motherhood, love, Barlow.
Love favorite food.
SPEAKER_01 (30:48):
True.
Favorite artist, Andrea Day.
Favorite color, blue, favoritething to do.
Run.
Figured.
Greatest fear.
Rat.
(31:11):
Turn up or Netflix and chill.
Netflix and chill.
And finally, abolitionistsanctuary.
SPEAKER_02 (31:20):
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (31:21):
Thank you for this conversation.
Thank you.
I love you, Crossman.
I love you too.
Thank you.
Thank you to our viewers andlisteners for joining this
conversation on the AbolitionistSanctuary podcast.
Please download and share on allplatforms.
Again, I am your host, ReverendDr.
Nakia Smith Robert, the founderand executive director of
(31:45):
Abolitionist Sanctuary.
Follow us on YouTube, Instagram,Facebook, and download our
social mobile app.
Y'all on Facebook and Instagram,and y'all can be on our social
mobile app.
Download the AbolitionistSanctuary Social Mobile app.
Also enroll in our courses andbecome certified at
abolitionacademy.com.
Don't forget to become a memberand subscribe to our mailing
(32:07):
list atabolitionistsanctuary.org.
And as we conclude this episode,remember that abolition is not
only a practice, but it is a wayof life.
And for me, abolition is myreligion.
Let's lead a faith basedabolitionist movement together.
Leslie, thank you so much forbeing here.
Thank you.
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