February 6, 2026 • 58 mins
We trace Black history as living resistance, linking Reconstruction to today’s bans and misinformation while centering Henry McNeal Turner’s radical theology and the Colored Conventions as blueprints for action. Faith, rhetoric, and archives become tools to confront white Christian nationalism and build abolitionist sanctuaries.
• significance of Black History Month amid erasure
• Reconstruction as a mirror for current politics
• rhetorical strategies for truth in a noisy age
• Africa as origin and identity anchor
• Henry McNeal Turner’s evolution and legacy
• women’s influence in AME leadership and ministry
• “God is a Negro” as liberating claim today
• abolition as faith practice and community design
• the 19th‑century Colored Conventions movement
• current books, research, and ways to support
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:05):
Welcome to the Abolitionist Sanctuary Podcast,
where we talk faith, abolition,and Black Motherhood.
I am your host, Reverend Dr.
Nikia Smith Robert, the founderand executive director of
Abolitionist Sanctuary.
We are a national coalitionleading a faith-based
(00:26):
abolitionist movement.
Thank you to our audio andvisual audiences for joining us
on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook,and all streaming platforms.
Let's build abolitionistsanctuaries together with this
critical and candid conversationfor today's episode.
(00:52):
Welcome to the AbolitionistSanctuary Podcast.
Thank you to our viewers onYouTube and our listeners on all
audio platforms for streamingthis podcast.
We are excited to bring to youanother episode.
I am your host, Reverend Dr.
Nikia Smith Robert, and I havewith me our guest, the Reverend
(01:13):
Dr.
Andre E.
Johnson.
Andre Johnson is a professor ofrhetoric and media studies at
the University of Memphis and adistinguished professor of
religion and public theology atMemphis Theological Seminary.
He is also the director of thenewly created Center for the
Study of Rhetoric, Race, andReligion.
(01:34):
Dr.
Johnson's research examines theintersection of rhetoric, race,
and religion, and he teachescourses in political
communication, African Americanrhetoric, and public address, as
well as religious communication,interracial communication,
prophetic rhetoric, and socialmovements.
He is a widely regarded,preeminent scholar of the life
(01:56):
and works of AME Bishop HenryMcNeil Turner and has published
two award-winning books andnumerous articles and book
chapters on Bishop Turner.
Dr.
Johnson is currently working ona book on the 19th century
Colored Convention movement.
In addition to his academicsuccess, Dr.
(02:16):
Johnson serves as the seniorpastor of Gifts of Life
Ministries in Memphis,Tennessee.
Join me in welcoming ouresteemed guest, Reverend Dr.
Andre Johnson.
So wonderful to have you here.
How are you?
SPEAKER_02 (02:31):
I am well and thank you so much for the invitation.
I cannot go on Facebook now andsay I was not invited.
I was invited by the greatReverend Dr.
Robert.
So thank you again.
SPEAKER_00 (02:45):
It is indeed my honor.
I'm excited for the conversationwe will have.
This is Black History Month,which is perhaps more important
now than ever, with so much atstake with the erasure of Black
history.
And so we want to take thisopportunity to screen,
celebrate, proclaim the goodnessit is to be Black, that Black is
(03:09):
indeed beautiful.
And we are excited to exalt ourhistory and heritage,
recognizing that every day isBlack history, particularly for
those who embody it.
So thank you.
And I want to ask you, what doyou view as the significance of
Black history for a time such asthis?
SPEAKER_02 (03:31):
Wow, what do I?
It's so much.
It's just so much.
Let me just start off by saying,first of all, again, thank you
for the invitation.
If I go by he, here and here,I'm showing up in this space
right now with a blue top on,with Greek letters five beta
sigma.
I am Fraternity Incorporatedwith a black sweatshirt
(03:51):
underneath.
I am in a room with books behindme and sitting in a chair having
a conversation with the greatDr.
Robert.
I've come by way of the child ofRose Marie Johnson Brown and
Charles Sigurd.
I was raised by WilliamRandolph.
(04:13):
And I am honored to be thehusband of Lisa Jones-Johnson.
And I have many nieces andnephews, and I have a whole lot
of folk praying for me, peopleat G Life, people at my
different schools that I havethe privilege of serving and
working at.
I am just honored that I standon the shoulders of the
(04:36):
ancestors.
My grandmother Bessie May, mygrandfather Violet Johnson, and
host of others.
Tom Stewart, I was blessed toknow and meet my
great-grandfather and Miss RosieStewart, his wife.
And so it is again an honor anda privilege to be in this space
(04:57):
and in this place.
Black History Month is soimportant now, more than ever
before, because, as you know,blackness is being under attack.
That's what I like to say.
Blackness is being under attack.
Anything that is known as orpointed out as, or anybody
(05:19):
that's talking about anythingdealing with black or blackness,
is being under attack right now.
So it is incumbent upon us to,first of all, learn our history,
to share our history, and toknow our history, know it and
hear.
Know that there are people, thepeople that I like to write
(05:41):
about and study that have gonethrough the crucible of being
attacked because of theirblackness.
And somehow, some way they madeit through to be able to pass
the baton to us.
So I need to understand, it isso crucial now to understand and
(06:01):
to know black history and notjust the black figures, that's
important too, but the historysurrounding those figures, the
context in which those figureslive.
So again, it is very, veryimportant.
And I am just so glad that I amhere with an opportunity to talk
about it.
SPEAKER_00 (06:20):
Thank you.
I appreciate that response, butsince we're throwing up letters,
let me let me share mine.
I am showing up in this spacewith the best color of the
rainbow.
It's called Crimson and Cream.
And I have some Fenty MVP redlipstick to match it, along with
(06:42):
some blonde box braids and redearrings signifying our heritage
with the continent Africa blacksweater with the Greek letters
Delta Sigma Theta, representingthe biggest and best sorority,
incorporated.
And I am glad to be joined herewith the panhellenic love and D9
(07:05):
love.
I also come from a people inwhich I'm extremely proud of,
particularly a Singapore blackmother named Carol Smith and her
mother, Fanny Johnson, and theeight other siblings who hail
from Williamston, North Carolinaand migrated to Harlem, New
York.
So I'm a product of Harlem andmy pronouns are she and her as
(07:28):
well.
So, Dr.
Johnson, thank you for thatintroduction and reminding us
the importance of Black historyand knowing it in our heart.
But, you know, for so much ofour social and political
climate, that history iscurrently at stake.
And so I wonder if you couldtell us, just for the record,
(07:49):
from your perspective, what aresome key starting points or
highlights in the history ofAfrican people?
But also what are some glaringmisrepresentations or even
fallacies?
SPEAKER_02 (08:01):
Wow.
One of the things that I findfascinating on one end, but also
disappointing, is when we studythe period of Reconstruction.
When we talk about AfricanAmericans or Americans, Africans
on the soil, what is now knownas the United States of America.
The Reconstruction period is theclosest period in history to me
(08:26):
now that we are now living in.
After Reconstruction,post-Reconstruction, with all of
the gains that black peoplemade, all of the sacrifices that
black people made, all of thework that black people, that was
just literally snatched away,taken away.
(08:47):
It was in that time that thiscountry did not punish the
Confederacy, did not hold themaccountable.
How can you fight against acountry and rebel against a
country and literally five yearslater, you can be elected, as in
the case of Tennessee, governorwhen you were like a general in
(09:13):
the Confederate Army?
And you become the governor ofthe United States.
SPEAKER_01 (09:40):
Some people are shocked of how they rule.
SPEAKER_02 (09:43):
This is the point that I try to make in my classes
that reconstruction andpost-reconstruction gives us
examples of how our time isgoing on right now.
I know we're going to talk aboutlater my some of the work that
I'm doing now with the colorconventions and all of that, but
but back to the questions.
(10:15):
Because the exact same thing,the erasing of Black history,
this whole lost cause narrative,and the Dunning School of
Historiography, which prettymuch said that Reconstruction
was a failure because Blackpeople were in charge.
Some of the same language, someof the same rhetorical templates
(10:38):
that were used in the 19thcentury are being used today.
And so I just find thatfascinating on one end as a
scholar and looking at it, butalso highly disappointing that
we are reliving a lot of this.
SPEAKER_00 (10:52):
Thank you for sharing the ways in which
history comes back to haunt usand why it is so important for
us to know it so that we canresist, right?
And to also point out thecontradictions of racism in
America, right?
And the contradictions of evenreligion, right?
A religion that, you know, Jesusbeing a first century
(11:15):
abolitionist who read from thescrolls of Isaiah to announce
his purpose, his ministry was toset the captives free, was to
feed the hungry, clothe thenaked, give, you know, drink to
those who are thirsty, to healthe brokenhearted, right?
That there was a social plan inJesus' ministry, yet there's a
contradiction in not a God ofliberation, but the God of white
(11:37):
supremacy that undergirds theidea that God isn't for
everyone's liberation, that Godis this exceptionalist, that
it's only for the powerful, theprivileged.
And so that is a contradictionthat we see in religion, but you
also mentioned the contradictionwe see in race, that the people
who undermine democracy can't bethe same people who are in
(11:58):
charge of it, right?
Wow.
I want you to talk to us aboutthese contradictions
specifically within Trump'spresidency.
We have seen a ban list thatincludes books, words, and
ideologies.
Why do you think the governmentis so vested in rewriting
history with the erasure ofmarginalized groups,
(12:21):
particularly black people?
SPEAKER_02 (12:24):
I'm so glad you brought it up because it is a
rhetorical action plan.
It is.
(14:53):
I have been calling for hushharbers to reappear so we can
begin to start having these kindof conversations and dialogue
because a lot of people don'tunderstand the period in which
we find ourselves.
It's up to us to share what weknow and help the people move
forward.
SPEAKER_00 (15:12):
In a time where information becomes power, and
it is important for us tocontrol the narrative because we
understand that misinformationis a tool of empower, empire,
and it is a part of the 12-pointplan of authoritarianism.
(15:33):
And so the erasure of historyand of facts, right, is the tool
that is used for oppression andto undermine our democracy.
And so we have to keep tellingthe story anyway.
And what's so powerful, what isso powerful, Dr.
Johnson, about our history.
(15:54):
And it was a history that wastranscribed.
So we hold the power because wealways have the power to tell
our story that we don't have todepend on what they decide to
publish or not publish.
But but it was the grios, it wasthe storytellers, it was the
(16:14):
stories that were transmittedfrom mother to daughter at the
kitchen table with the hot combor hair braiding.
And so the power of our historyis to not be silenced so that we
can continue to tell our story.
SPEAKER_02 (16:31):
And that was long before all history becomes a
thing in the academy, right?
SPEAKER_00 (16:36):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (16:43):
Once we begin to make the connections, then we
begin to see oh, this is one ofthe reasons why they did not
want enslaved folk to know howto read or write.
Because if you don't know how toread and write, then you may not
know what you need to know.
But as you just mentioned, Dr.
Robert, that still didn't stopthe information because the old
(17:05):
traditions kept being passeddown.
And so we might need in this, Ilove how you said it, in this
age of misinformation ofdisinformation, information
becomes the powerful tool thatwe need.
So I am inspired even right nowto do even more.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (17:26):
Absolutely.
And I know you are your area ofexpertise is rhetoric.
So before I pivot to the morespecific historical figures,
that is also a part of yourexpertise.
Tell us why, in an age wheremisinformation is privilege, why
information is power through thelens and expertise of rhetoric
(17:50):
and race.
SPEAKER_02 (17:51):
I've been trying to drill in on that question all
week long.
I was in a, you know, back inJanuary, I was in a one-week
intensive and religiouscommunication and public
theology.
And one of the things that wehave wrestled with from the
beginning to the end was thefact that we were trying to
figure out what rhetoric, whatwords, what language to us, how
(18:17):
do we come into a space that'salready noisy, that's already
filled with channels.
Maybe the first and foremoststep that we need to do is to
walk into or to be in a space.
And when we find ourselves witha concopy of voices already
echoing, one of the things thatwe can do is go back to the
(18:40):
Africana tradition ofcommunication.
And one of the first canon orthe first canon of Egyptian
rhetoric is silence, is to sitand to discern.
And not just to jump quickly andto write your think piece or to
(19:00):
write or to say somethingquickly, but to sit for a moment
and just hear and listen andthen discern what it is that you
need to say, and to be groundedin mock, which is truth,
wholeness, shalom, well-being,and being an authentic person of
(19:22):
truth and a bearer of truth,meaning that I believe what I'm
about to say or write right nowis true.
And if not, I have opportunityto come and to rectify or to
apologize or to make right, butto stand in that truth and to
keep pushing truth.
(19:43):
Case study I did a while ago wason the January 6th insurrection.
And as much as people are sayingthere wasn't an insurrection,
there was just people walkingand having a good time.
A few folk got out of hand,maybe, but they were just
tourists and they would much asall of that was going on, I just
kept speaking the truth.
(20:05):
Don't be gaslit, don't befooled.
You know it's in here.
Discern what it is for yourself.
And you need to do a little bitmore investigation if you really
want to find out the truth aboutthat matter, because everything
that's coming on our socialmedia feeds is not true and it's
(20:26):
not for our best interest.
One of the things that we'regonna have to protect ourselves,
and this comes down to electiontime when people are pitting up
against one another.
It's time out for that.
We have to come together and tobegin to understand that, hey, I
know what it is that you'retrying to do.
(20:48):
I know what you want me to do, Iknow where you're trying to
point me, I know what you'retrying to persuade me to do, but
I'm not gonna do that because Iknow your game now, and I am
going to do something that'sgoing to benefit me and my
family and ours and the whole ofthe community.
Because going back to theAfrican traditional
(21:09):
communication lens, Bluetoothsays, I am because we are, and I
cannot be if you are not who youare.
SPEAKER_00 (21:18):
Yeah, that's really good.
And I think it was John in Johnwhere it says, and ye shall know
the truth, and the truth shallset you free.
Ye shall know the truth, and thetruth shall set you free.
So there is liberation in truthtelling, that truth telling is a
form of resistance, and it'salso a holy and sacred act.
(21:40):
That is very important.
And I'm glad that you raised it.
I'm also glad, and as you wereidentifying significant
historical periods, there is arichness to understanding that
our history does not start inslavery.
Right.
As we talk about truth asfreedom, then let's be clear
that our history does.
Not begin in our servitude.
(22:03):
But there is a rich history thatdates back to Africa, the
continent, that continent thatis one of the richest lands of
natural resources, a continentthat originated civilization, a
continent where we were kingsand queens and inventors and
tribal leaders and wholefamilies.
(22:26):
War is waged against that land.
That rhetoric and narratives arewaged against that land because
of the richness that came fromit.
America wouldn't be who it iswithout the origins of the human
race and civilization, sciences,math that comes from the
continent Africa.
(22:47):
And if we can't be proud ofthat, then it alters our
self-determination and identity.
There's a vestment in teachingus that Africa isn't the
starting point.
Slavery is.
What I like about the work thatyou're doing is also recognizing
(23:08):
that our history in America isrich when we start from
Reconstruction and also notslavery.
When I teach my course at theUniversity of Kansas, Jailbirds
and Jayhawks, Abolition andBleeding Kansas, I look at
abolition's starting point froma reconstruction,
reconstruction, andpost-Reconstruction, not a
(23:29):
pre-antebellum andpost-antibellum narrative.
I want us to go deeper and todrill down into some specifics.
Talk about in this timeline,Africa pre-Reconstruction and
post-Reconstruction, where do welearn about Henry McNeil Turner?
Who is a historical figure thatis at the center of your work?
(23:54):
Talk to us about the importanceof Henry McNeil Turner for Black
history.
SPEAKER_02 (23:59):
Oh my God, I can talk about that all day.
Turner was born February 1st,1834.
So apropos, I guess, he's bornin Black History Month, which we
now know is Black History Month.
What can we say about Turner?
Turner lived through He wasnever enslaved himself, but he
worked alongside the enslaved.
The stories and all of the songsand all of the knowledge and the
(24:21):
wisdom that came from thoseancestors were poured into him.
He self-talked.
So he's an allodac.
He taught himself how to readand write.
And by the time it was all over,he spoke Hebrew and Greek and,
of course, English and otherlanguages and dialects.
He becomes, during the CivilWar, the first African-American
(24:44):
chaplain of the Union Army,which is now, of course, the
United States of America.
He becomes a state legislator.
He becomes all of thesewonderful things, becomes a
bishop and all of those types ofthings.
But he is a fascinating figurebecause you can see, and this is
what I try to chart out in mywritings on Turner, his
(25:07):
rhetorical trajectory, or hisgrowth as a theologian, really,
or his growth as a religiousstudies person or a person of
faith.
Because he starts off as one ofthe most conservative as it
relates to the Bible, becausethis is what he had read, and
this is what he had read ofothers, and he believed it.
(25:29):
And by the time in 1915, when hepasses away, he is one of the
most progressive thinkers of theage, ordaining women in 1885,
saying that we ought to have ablack understanding of the
Bible.
And as some of the women,Elizabeth Katie Stanning during
the 1890s were contemplatingdoing a woman's Bible.
(25:52):
He was saying, we ought to havea black Bible.
And all of his work, all of it,points to an abolitionist
framework, Freedom, Liberation,and Democracy.
And he began to grow and to seethe context in which he finds
himself.
One of the most fascinatingthings is that, you know, in
(26:14):
1866, he gives the EmancipationDay speech, the first day of
emancipation for black folk, andhe gets up there and in his
clothes, he says, Let bygones bebygones.
Let us not hold any grudges.
Let us be brothers, and we cancome together to work together
(26:37):
to make a better place foreverybody.
He is very conciliatory.
By 1895, hell is an improvementas far as the Negro is
concerned.
He is totally away from that.
So the fascinating piece abouthis life and his work is how
does he make that shift?
(26:58):
How does he make the change?
And he does it by drawing on, ofcourse, his black faith, drawing
on the folk that he grew upwith, drawing on some of the
ministers who are ported to him.
And of course, being a thinkerand being a theologian, or what
(27:19):
we now would call a publictheologian, he's doing theology
in the public.
And he's criticizing and he'srereading his Bible and he's
growing, and he's leaving thesenuggets of wisdom for all of us
to share.
So I can just go on with Turner.
Turner was just a remarkablefigure.
He saw slavery, the Civil War,all those battles,
(27:43):
Reconstruction became part ofthe Georgia State legislature.
And then, of course, we've seenpost-Reconstruction and even the
turn of the century before hepasses away.
SPEAKER_00 (27:54):
Wow.
So he occupied multiple spaces,the religious, the church, and
politics.
And so that's very interesting.
The first African-Americanchaplain, a state legislator,
and also a bishop in the AMEchurch.
I am ordained AME.
I'm an itinerant elder inAfrican Methodism.
(28:16):
And to become ordained, Iremember getting asked the
question by Bishop Norris (28:19):
who were the four horsemen?
And Henry McNeil Turner is oneof them.
But talk to us who isinfluencing Turner to become all
the things that you mentioned.
And then also who is influencedby Turner after his passing and
contemporary scholarship andeven religious leaders.
SPEAKER_02 (28:41):
Oh, wow.
Turner has in Florence, itstarts, and this is what I talk
about in the book or in TheForgotten Prophet.
It starts at the feet of hisgrandmother.
The reason why Turner was such agreat storyteller or a great
preacher, even, was the factthat his grandmother used to sit
(29:01):
him out on the porch and talkabout stories.
And that's when he learned, asfamily law told it, that
Turner's grandfather was anAfrican king.
And he was caught up in theslave trade.
And when they brought him toAmerica and found out that he
was this African king, he couldnot be enslaved because you,
(29:24):
quote, could not enslave royalblood or some law with things.
That story stayed with Turner.
Turner told that story, I don'tknow, maybe 200, 300 times
throughout his life.
It stayed with him because ithelped him understand, going
back to what you said earlierabout not starting here, that
(29:44):
there is an African past wherewe were kings and queens.
There was an African past wherethere was some notoriety to my
name.
And Turner always fell back onthat.
The second influencer of Turner,especially early on, believe it
or not, were women.
And the women who were in hischurch that helped him preach,
(30:05):
helped him write.
He is one of the things I loveabout Turner is that he just
didn't keep that to himself.
He will write about women whohelped him with his sermon and
sermon preparation, the Englishlanguage, and all of those
things early on in his ministry.
Mrs.
Hardin, I believe her name was,when she passed away, he writes
(30:28):
this beautiful obituary of herin the Christian Recorder.
And by the way, shout out to theAME Church and the Christian
Recorder newspaper.
Had it not been for the, wewouldn't know half of what we
know about 19th-century blackchurch life and about black
church period and just blackpeople and black communities,
had it not been for theChristian Recorder newspaper.
(30:49):
So thank you for that.
I always like to shout out myAME sisters and brothers.
SPEAKER_00 (30:53):
And shout out to John Thomas.
My good friend John Thomas forsharing that publication
forward.
SPEAKER_02 (30:59):
So Turner is influenced then.
And of course, Daniel Payne wasa big influence.
He always looked up to Payne,even when Payne didn't really
want him to be too involved inpolitics or gotten a little bit
too radical for Bishop Payne, hestill looked up to him.
And last but not least,influences early on that helped
(31:23):
Turner is some of the earlierenslaved preachers that he
heard.
He said that old man Sankey, forinstance, I think that was one
of the preachers that he said,old man Sankey can outpreach
anybody today.
He has preached circles aroundfolk today.
He was really in touch withspirit and in tune to what's
(31:44):
really going on.
So Turner was one of thosepreachers that talked about the
spirit a lot, that you had to bein the spirit to proclaim the
word of God.
And he said that those enslavedpreachers did just that because
of their condition, but theystill preach with them and
vigor.
Those are some of hisinfluencers.
(32:04):
Who he influenced?
A whole bunch of one of the onesthat he really looked up to in
his older age was another one ofyour bishops, Reverdy Ransom.
He thought Reveredy Ransom andwhat he was doing eventually
would do in Chicago with theInstitutional Church, AME.
Institutional Church was Jeffalso.
(32:25):
He thought that some of thebishops who came after him were
not as radical as Turner mighthave been, but he still
influenced them a whole lot.
He influenced a lot of your AMEcounterparts in Africa.
And I think the theology we talkabout today, I think one of the
more contemporary figures whohas gone on to be with the
(32:48):
ancestors, of course, is JamesCole, and some of the
scholarship now that AMEministers and all of us do, with
his whole God is a Negroconcept, or I like to just say
his proclamation.
SPEAKER_00 (33:02):
Before we get to know how is the Negro, can we
believe it that Turner wasinfluenced by women?
Yes.
Yes, I can believe it.
SPEAKER_02 (33:13):
Known too, because Turner talked about that.
That's why we know about ittoday.
He wrote about that.
He didn't keep it to himself.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:22):
Yeah, and feel free to say more about that.
The Amy Church was one of thefirst denominations to elect and
consecrate a woman to bishop.
Bishop Basti McKenzie being thefirst elected and consecrated
bishop in the AME Church, alsomy soror.
And we have women, a very activeand robust women in ministry.
In fact, a lot of bishops aren'telected to this day without the
(33:45):
support of women in ministry.
Women are a strong force in theAME church.
We aren't often or always giventhe reciprocity that we deserve.
And that's not just in thechurch.
We can look broadly in societyas well.
Black women being one of themost civically engaged and
(34:07):
active voting bloc.
And yet we are underrepresentedin many offices, if not all
areas of government.
Likewise, in the church, we arethe primary stakeholders,
instrumental historically andcurrently in electing our
leaders, but there's just asmall space reserved for us to
(34:27):
actually lead the church, notonly at the episcopal level, but
also first churches and thedenomination and the connection.
SPEAKER_02 (34:58):
I think, first of all, on issues of gender, I
think the way that Turner, thetrajectory where Turner was
going, today he will be morewhen he ordained Sarah Hughes in
1885, ordained her as an elder,and she had already been
preaching all around NorthCarolina.
(35:19):
Everybody recognized her giftsand abilities.
He was laying hands on folk anddid the same thing to her that
he did to all those men.
When the other bishops rescindedthe ordination, he left it
alone.
He didn't do it anymore.
He kept on writingpronouncements about women and
(35:39):
that they should be able, thepriest that they should be able
to be ordained and all of that.
But he never, he didn't push it.
I think today, if he was living,he would be really on that side
of empowering women in ministryfull stop.
Full stop.
Same thing with gender and Ithink the way that Turner is
(36:01):
going and it's there, of course,we don't know, but I think if
you take a liberationistposition in your theology, in
your scholarship, and anythingreally, you are open to things.
You have to be, because youunderstand that I am not totally
(36:21):
free until you are totally free.
So I think Turner would havebeen one of the leading bishops
as it relates to gender andsexuality as well.
As far as what's going on nowand with the other bishops, I
unequivocally know, I think,what he would say.
(36:43):
It would be almost the samething he was saying during the
1890s and during the 1900s whenhe and the bishops would go at
it in the newspaper.
Turner was very pessimisticabout America during that time.
He didn't think America wasliving up to its value and could
not live up to its value.
That's why he's promotingimmigration.
(37:05):
He was like, let's get out ofhere.
Which, by the way, is afull-stop work stoppage.
We go, we out.
I always ask people.
Just think about for a moment ifthe one million or two million
people that Turner said wasneeded to go to Africa and to
eventually work with Africans.
It was at first, like everybodyelse, let us go and help out the
(37:27):
Africans.
But he really realized afterthis trip to Africa that they're
pretty good.
SPEAKER_00 (37:32):
They got a whole lot going on.
We actually want to work withthem.
Absolutely.
Pan-Africanist movement isimportant.
And so tell me, you know,because of the pro-black agenda
and the pro-African repatriatingback to Africa agenda of Henry
McNeil Turner, talk to us aboutthe significance of the
proclamation that you mentioned,that God is a Negro.
(37:53):
Now we know Jacqueline Grant,decades later, argues that God
is a black woman.
We know James Cohn says God ison the side of the oppressed and
that Jesus is black.
And these traditions arepredating to a proclamation that
is coming way before through themouth of Bishop Henry McNeil
(38:16):
Turner, who argues that God is aNegro.
What does this declaration meantoday in this current political
climate with a God of whitesupremacy running rampant and
this idea of white Christiannationalism?
Talk to us about thisdeclaration of God as a negro.
SPEAKER_02 (38:33):
I think it can represent two polar opposites of
opinions.
First of all, of course, God isa Negro, as Turner mentions in
his writing when he talked aboutGod being a Negro, that nobody,
and he's really talking aboutpeople of Christian faith, if
you cannot see, if you cannotimagine God looking like you or
(38:56):
being like you, in features andall of that, then there's no,
that's what he literally said.
There is no hope for people whocannot see God as themselves.
Because therefore you arenullifying you being made in the
image of God.
So his argument, everybody fromtime immorial, he said,
(39:18):
everybody knew that orunderstood that God was, that
God was, they were made in theimage of God, that God was like
them.
And so that's important becauseif you understand that you are
made in the image of God, thenyou can carry yourself in
different ways.
(39:39):
You can do this work, you canstand and be truthful to the
faith.
So, yes, that is important, andthat's still important today
because if God is a Negro or ifGod is black, then God is not
the white supremacist God thatis running rampant today.
But I'm gonna flip side of that.
(40:00):
The little piece that I did awhile back as well, too, that if
the be on the theodicy side, theWilliam Jones side is God a
white racist.
So if God, well no, if God is aNegro, the question may be, is
God Uncle Ruckus?
Is God if God okay?
SPEAKER_01 (40:23):
If I can say God is a Negro or God is black, why is
it that it seems like Godreally, really sometimes, Lord,
come on now?
You you don't seem like youreally kind of like who you are.
SPEAKER_00 (40:36):
Well, let me push back on this.
Let me push back on it.
Um is the claim that God is aNegro, is that exclusionary?
Is it literal?
Is it figurative?
Is it symbolic?
And is it exclusionary?
Is God other things?
Is God bigger than language,bigger than social identifiers?
(40:56):
Talk to us.
SPEAKER_02 (40:57):
No, no, you're right.
That is actually Turner's pointin saying God.
He is not saying God isliterally a Negro.
He is trying, this is arhetorical trope.
He is trying to get people tounderstand how when you read the
God is the Negro text, he evenleaves room that God being
woman, being other things.
(41:18):
So, yes, Turner is is trying atthis point with everything is
against black folk, all of theteachings, all of religion, all
of the pictures, everything, allof them all, what you read in
history books is againstblackness.
The very thing that you must doin the midst of all of that is
(41:42):
to believe that you are stillloved by God and that you are
made in the image of God.
SPEAKER_00 (41:48):
And now I feel like we need to say, take that to
Trump.
So I it is a very importantclaim that God is a Negro that
is especially freeing,liberating for today, because as
you opened up with that historybecomes this pigulum of back and
(42:10):
forth, right?
And we are swinging back intime.
And if we are swinging back intime with oppressive tools, then
we have to swing back with thetools that we use to fight
oppression then.
And that are these statements,whether rhetorical or otherwise,
that God is a Negro, that God ison the side of the oppressed,
(42:31):
that God is a liberator.
And it's important for the blackchurch and religious leaders to
espouse this liberation theologyover and against the agenda of
white Christian nationalism andeven the evangelical
hyper-spiritualizing, the ideathat we cannot speak about
religion and politics, that wehave to be so heavily bound that
(42:54):
we are no earthly good.
That is a lie.
And so we got to tell the truthand shame the devil.
And the truth is that religionis political because it was the
state that sought to executeJesus and that Constantine
co-opted the religion ofChristianity that became a state
(43:15):
religion.
So religion, particularlyChristianity, is deeply
political, and Christianity wasused to justify the slave
recracy, and it continues to beused to weaponize scripture
against the undocumented,against black people, against
queer people and those who areon the margins.
And so this claim that isrhetorical but also political is
(43:38):
important for a faith thatliberates.
And so I hope that our church,from the mouth of its one of its
founders, particularly in theAME church, will continue in
this prophetic tradition ofspeaking truth and
unpologetically black about whowe are and the importance of our
image in God who looks.
(44:00):
Like us, and how, and I know youwant to jump in there, as you
are crafting your response.
I also invite you to share withus that what how does this make
Bishop Turner abolitionist?
Right, and what is theimportance for abolitionists for
the abolition for the blackchurch?
SPEAKER_02 (44:21):
Abolition to abolitionist to me means
freedom, liberation, andjustice.
One of the things that Turnerwas trying to do when he
realized that the big move goingback to Africa probably would
not happen because of a wholelot of different issues and
problems, namely money and chipsand all of that.
(44:44):
It's not because it was not thewill of the people, especially
in the South, they were ready togo anywhere.
And we see that.
One of the things that Turner'srhetoric does, that I think is
abolitionist in this way, isthat it freed the minds of many
(45:05):
folk who really honestly thoughtthat they were literally, not
figuratively, but literallyinferior to especially white
people, and really all people,but mostly white people.
And that when you feel likethat, you don't feel like doing
(45:27):
nothing.
You just sit in it.
And what Turner did was fire uppeople to begin to understand
that, yeah, I am made in theimage of God.
I can do all things, I can dothese things.
And so what I argue in the bookis that Turner's immigrationist
rhetoric becomes just liberationrhetoric that frees folk to
(45:52):
steal away, if you will, in themiddle of the night and to move
up north.
They moved as far as they couldin order to find freedom and to
find some modicum of decency andrespect to their persons and to
their family and their kin.
I like to think that Turner'simmigrationist rhetoric in the
(46:16):
last third of his life, the waythat he was talking about and
critiquing America, pinpointcritiques that we still use
today, how he was critiquingfolk who adopted the main line
embedded theology of his day,including some black preachers
and the back and forth that theywere going in on.
(46:39):
The way that he did all of that,is to me at least, when I study
his rhetoric, is an openingfreedom, liberation, something
akin to what people say that aRobert Terrell would say about
an Alchemist later on, and otherfreedom fighters who help people
understand that you are reallymore than what they say that you
(47:03):
are.
Matter of fact, you're a wholelot more.
You are not what they say thatyou are.
And you need to start believingthat and start receiving that
for yourself.
And a lot of black people did.
And that's why a lot of blackpeople liberated themselves even
in slavery times, but alsoliberated themselves or
attempted to during those toughand trying times when everything
(47:27):
was against them.
SPEAKER_00 (47:29):
Yeah.
Thank you.
And that what you're sharingwith us also speaks to the power
of rhetoric to shift narratives.
So I thank you for emphasizingthat.
As we look to conclude this timetogether and this important
conversation, I want you topivot and segue into your more
recent work.
You're writing a book currentlythat's talking about the 19th
(47:51):
century colored conventionmovement.
What is this historical momentand why is it important?
SPEAKER_02 (47:58):
Well, once again, shout out to the AME Church.
Hey, in 1830, at Mother Bemplein Philadelphia, the first color
convention was held.
Richard Allen, of course,hosted.
The color convention had been amovement during the 19th century
that predates the abolitionistmovement, predates the
(48:19):
anti-slavery movement, and gaverise to many of the orators that
we know about in the 19thcentury: Frederick Douglass,
Bishop Turner, Francis EllenWalker Hopper, so on and so on.
This colored convention movementis the first sustained movement
(48:41):
led and operated by black peoplein the 19th century.
I actually argue that it is thefounding understanding of what
we now know as, quote, socialjustice rhetoric.
The black rhetorical traditionis birthed out of this.
And what I mean by that is, ofcourse, black people have been
(49:04):
writing and speaking way before1830 or 1865, which I dated
because that's when blackSoutherners could actually speak
freely because they wereemancipated.
So this black rhetoricaltradition that we now know and
understand is kind of burnt outof these color conventions.
(49:25):
It is black-owned, black red.
These were black spaces andplaces to talk about politics,
to talk about what's going on inthe community, what's going on
in our churches, and what can wedo.
It was the first politicaloperation that we had, even
before the 15th Amendment, whenblack men got the right to vote.
(49:50):
But even when those votes weresuppressed, and really it was
all over.
And so the point that I'm tryingto make with this edited
collection and my futurewritings with the color
convention, I want us to go backand read those minutes, those
documents, and see what theywere doing in these spaces and
(50:12):
places in which they met.
I'm so thankful that they hadsecretaries and people collected
minutes and they made pamphlets,and the black newspaper were
reporting and chronicling whatwas going on.
It was just a movement in and ofitself, and I am so excited
about this new project.
(50:33):
I think I'm gonna do a couple ofthings with it.
And the first, right now, isthis entity collection, and then
I got one that's coming out juston the Tennessee state cover
conventions from 1865 to 1875,and trying to show how the state
of Tennessee moved from one ofthe first states, if not the
(50:54):
first state, I think it was thefirst southern state to grant
suffrage to black men.
And by 1870, you know, electinga former Confederate general as
governor, and by 1875, Tennesseeis not known as being anything
(51:15):
looking like a progressivestate.
SPEAKER_00 (51:17):
So thank you so much.
After the first book on our AMEbishop, I think we were ready to
give you your deacon ordination.
Well, after a second book that'scoming out of the mothership, I
think you might earn your elderordination, honorary elder
ordination in the I will behonored if I am found worthy of
(51:42):
the great AME church.
And what I appreciate about theAME Church is that it is
impossible to talk about Blackhistory and not mention our
bishops and founders.
And so I I really appreciatethat, as well as our women in
ministry, Charina Lee andothers.
So thank you for keeping thathistory alive.
(52:03):
Well, I'm gonna go into thisrapid round of fun questions for
you, but first tell us how canpeople support your work?
Give us the titles of yourbooks, how we can purchase it in
ways that people can stayconnected with you.
SPEAKER_02 (52:17):
The two turn of the three turn of books now The
Forgotten Prophet, Bishop HenryMcNeil Turner, and the
African-American prophetictradition.
And all these books are widelyavailable.
If you just Google them, they'llpop up.
My second book, Monograph onTurner, No Future in the
Country, The Prophetic Pessimismof Bishop Henry McNeil Turner,
that is with Sicker Press.
(52:39):
And then there's a third book onthe speeches on Bishop Turner.
And I think also looking for apublisher to publish some of the
writing that we find in theChristian Recorder and other
newspapers, which are morewhat's the word I want to use,
jarring, maybe even moreentertaining, makes people
(52:59):
wonder wow, did he say that backin 1888?
Yes, he did.
And so we're looking at, youknow, doing something like that.
But my latest book was TheSummer of 2020, George Floyd and
the Resurgence of the BlackLives Matter movement.
And there might be something, atleast something coming out
behind that to talk about thisperiod after 2020, kind of
(53:23):
leading us up to how we get tothis period.
But we'll see.
Those are, you know, within thecontext of what we're talking
about, or some of the books andwritings and stuff like that.
You can reach me on social mediaat A.E.
Johnson PhD.
All of the handles.
Not really on Twitter anymore orX, but Blue Sky, Facebook,
(53:46):
Instagram.
I'm there.
And if you are led by theSpirit, the best way financially
to support is just to supportour church.
Gifts of Life Ministry.
Right here in Memphis,Tennessee.
If you Google Gifts of Life,you'll see ways to give
financially and otherwise.
(54:06):
And I've pointed all that backto the church.
So thank you.
Thank you in advance for all ofyour support.
SPEAKER_00 (54:15):
Thank you so much, Dr.
Johnson.
And also, we would have to getyou on our abolition academy so
that we could put a coursetogether that is connecting the
dots of then and now of ourBlack leaders, including Turner,
through the George Floydmovement, Black Lives Matter
movement in this currentcontext.
Likewise, we would love toinvite you onto our social media
(54:37):
platform.
And so while people are exitingTwitter, we are also an
alternative.
You can download theabolitionist sanctuary app and
you can apply to become a memberon our social platform, which is
a sanctuary away from biasedalgorithms and vicious bots, but
we are a group of people who areconnected by justice and
(55:01):
liberation.
And so I invite you to join oursocial media platform as well.
And then the last churchannouncement I have is when you
talk about the work that you'redoing, this archival work, it
also reminds me of theimportance of our churches to
digitize our liturgies, ourBible studies, our announcements
(55:23):
and programs so that we couldcontinue to transmit our history
over and against the statetrying to undermine it.
So as we go into this rapidround, Dr.
Johnson, I'm gonna throw outsome words and you give me the
first thought that comes inmind.
Doesn't have to be a sentence, aphrase, just a thought, a word
that comes to mind.
You ready?
SPEAKER_02 (55:43):
Okay, that's gonna get me in trouble.
Come on.
SPEAKER_00 (55:47):
James Cohn Gary Dorian.
SPEAKER_02 (55:53):
Wow.
Henry McNeil Turner Journey.
SPEAKER_01 (56:06):
Proclamation The Academy, but needed, but needed.
SPEAKER_02 (56:22):
Yeah, but powerful but needed.
SPEAKER_00 (56:36):
All right, favorite way to relax.
SPEAKER_02 (56:39):
Oh wow.
Looking at some TV sometimes.
SPEAKER_00 (56:43):
Beach or mountains.
SPEAKER_02 (56:46):
Probably the beach.
SPEAKER_00 (56:48):
Netflix and chill or turnout?
The pain.
SPEAKER_02 (56:55):
Sometimes the turnout is nice.
Sometimes Netflix and chill isnice.
SPEAKER_00 (57:00):
Black history.
SPEAKER_02 (57:02):
Need it.
SPEAKER_00 (57:03):
And last and not least, abolitionist Sanctuary.
SPEAKER_01 (57:09):
Grateful.
SPEAKER_00 (57:10):
Thank you for joining this conversation on the
Abolitionist Sanctuary podcast.
Please download and share on allplatforms.
Again, I am your host, ReverendDr.
Nikia Smith Robert, the founderand executive director of
Abolitionist Sanctuary.
You can follow us on YouTube,Instagram, Facebook, and
(57:30):
download our social media apps.
Also email us to join ournewsletter.
You can enroll in our coursesand become certified at
abolitionacademy.com.
Don't forget to become a memberand subscribe to our mailing
list atabolitionistsanctuary.org.
As we conclude this episode,remember that abolition is not
(57:52):
only a practice, but it is a wayof life.
And for me, abolition is myreligion.
Let's lead a faith basedabolitionist movement together.
Dr.
Johnson, thank you so much forjoining our show.
Welcome to the Abolitionist Sanctuary Podcast,
where we talk faith, abolition,and Black Motherhood.
I am your host, Reverend Dr.
Nikia Smith Robert, the founderand executive director of
Abolitionist Sanctuary.
We are a national coalitionleading a faith-based
(00:26):
abolitionist movement.
Thank you to our audio andvisual audiences for joining us
on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook,and all streaming platforms.
Let's build abolitionistsanctuaries together with this
critical and candid conversationfor today's episode.
(00:52):
Welcome to the AbolitionistSanctuary Podcast.
Thank you to our viewers onYouTube and our listeners on all
audio platforms for streamingthis podcast.
We are excited to bring to youanother episode.
I am your host, Reverend Dr.
Nikia Smith Robert, and I havewith me our guest, the Reverend
(01:13):
Dr.
Andre E.
Johnson.
Andre Johnson is a professor ofrhetoric and media studies at
the University of Memphis and adistinguished professor of
religion and public theology atMemphis Theological Seminary.
He is also the director of thenewly created Center for the
Study of Rhetoric, Race, andReligion.
(01:34):
Dr.
Johnson's research examines theintersection of rhetoric, race,
and religion, and he teachescourses in political
communication, African Americanrhetoric, and public address, as
well as religious communication,interracial communication,
prophetic rhetoric, and socialmovements.
He is a widely regarded,preeminent scholar of the life
(01:56):
and works of AME Bishop HenryMcNeil Turner and has published
two award-winning books andnumerous articles and book
chapters on Bishop Turner.
Dr.
Johnson is currently working ona book on the 19th century
Colored Convention movement.
In addition to his academicsuccess, Dr.
(02:16):
Johnson serves as the seniorpastor of Gifts of Life
Ministries in Memphis,Tennessee.
Join me in welcoming ouresteemed guest, Reverend Dr.
Andre Johnson.
So wonderful to have you here.
How are you?
SPEAKER_02 (02:31):
I am well and thank you so much for the invitation.
I cannot go on Facebook now andsay I was not invited.
I was invited by the greatReverend Dr.
Robert.
So thank you again.
SPEAKER_00 (02:45):
It is indeed my honor.
I'm excited for the conversationwe will have.
This is Black History Month,which is perhaps more important
now than ever, with so much atstake with the erasure of Black
history.
And so we want to take thisopportunity to screen,
celebrate, proclaim the goodnessit is to be Black, that Black is
(03:09):
indeed beautiful.
And we are excited to exalt ourhistory and heritage,
recognizing that every day isBlack history, particularly for
those who embody it.
So thank you.
And I want to ask you, what doyou view as the significance of
Black history for a time such asthis?
SPEAKER_02 (03:31):
Wow, what do I?
It's so much.
It's just so much.
Let me just start off by saying,first of all, again, thank you
for the invitation.
If I go by he, here and here,I'm showing up in this space
right now with a blue top on,with Greek letters five beta
sigma.
I am Fraternity Incorporatedwith a black sweatshirt
(03:51):
underneath.
I am in a room with books behindme and sitting in a chair having
a conversation with the greatDr.
Robert.
I've come by way of the child ofRose Marie Johnson Brown and
Charles Sigurd.
I was raised by WilliamRandolph.
(04:13):
And I am honored to be thehusband of Lisa Jones-Johnson.
And I have many nieces andnephews, and I have a whole lot
of folk praying for me, peopleat G Life, people at my
different schools that I havethe privilege of serving and
working at.
I am just honored that I standon the shoulders of the
(04:36):
ancestors.
My grandmother Bessie May, mygrandfather Violet Johnson, and
host of others.
Tom Stewart, I was blessed toknow and meet my
great-grandfather and Miss RosieStewart, his wife.
And so it is again an honor anda privilege to be in this space
(04:57):
and in this place.
Black History Month is soimportant now, more than ever
before, because, as you know,blackness is being under attack.
That's what I like to say.
Blackness is being under attack.
Anything that is known as orpointed out as, or anybody
(05:19):
that's talking about anythingdealing with black or blackness,
is being under attack right now.
So it is incumbent upon us to,first of all, learn our history,
to share our history, and toknow our history, know it and
hear.
Know that there are people, thepeople that I like to write
(05:41):
about and study that have gonethrough the crucible of being
attacked because of theirblackness.
And somehow, some way they madeit through to be able to pass
the baton to us.
So I need to understand, it isso crucial now to understand and
(06:01):
to know black history and notjust the black figures, that's
important too, but the historysurrounding those figures, the
context in which those figureslive.
So again, it is very, veryimportant.
And I am just so glad that I amhere with an opportunity to talk
about it.
SPEAKER_00 (06:20):
Thank you.
I appreciate that response, butsince we're throwing up letters,
let me let me share mine.
I am showing up in this spacewith the best color of the
rainbow.
It's called Crimson and Cream.
And I have some Fenty MVP redlipstick to match it, along with
(06:42):
some blonde box braids and redearrings signifying our heritage
with the continent Africa blacksweater with the Greek letters
Delta Sigma Theta, representingthe biggest and best sorority,
incorporated.
And I am glad to be joined herewith the panhellenic love and D9
(07:05):
love.
I also come from a people inwhich I'm extremely proud of,
particularly a Singapore blackmother named Carol Smith and her
mother, Fanny Johnson, and theeight other siblings who hail
from Williamston, North Carolinaand migrated to Harlem, New
York.
So I'm a product of Harlem andmy pronouns are she and her as
(07:28):
well.
So, Dr.
Johnson, thank you for thatintroduction and reminding us
the importance of Black historyand knowing it in our heart.
But, you know, for so much ofour social and political
climate, that history iscurrently at stake.
And so I wonder if you couldtell us, just for the record,
(07:49):
from your perspective, what aresome key starting points or
highlights in the history ofAfrican people?
But also what are some glaringmisrepresentations or even
fallacies?
SPEAKER_02 (08:01):
Wow.
One of the things that I findfascinating on one end, but also
disappointing, is when we studythe period of Reconstruction.
When we talk about AfricanAmericans or Americans, Africans
on the soil, what is now knownas the United States of America.
The Reconstruction period is theclosest period in history to me
(08:26):
now that we are now living in.
After Reconstruction,post-Reconstruction, with all of
the gains that black peoplemade, all of the sacrifices that
black people made, all of thework that black people, that was
just literally snatched away,taken away.
(08:47):
It was in that time that thiscountry did not punish the
Confederacy, did not hold themaccountable.
How can you fight against acountry and rebel against a
country and literally five yearslater, you can be elected, as in
the case of Tennessee, governorwhen you were like a general in
(09:13):
the Confederate Army?
And you become the governor ofthe United States.
SPEAKER_01 (09:40):
Some people are shocked of how they rule.
SPEAKER_02 (09:43):
This is the point that I try to make in my classes
that reconstruction andpost-reconstruction gives us
examples of how our time isgoing on right now.
I know we're going to talk aboutlater my some of the work that
I'm doing now with the colorconventions and all of that, but
but back to the questions.
(10:15):
Because the exact same thing,the erasing of Black history,
this whole lost cause narrative,and the Dunning School of
Historiography, which prettymuch said that Reconstruction
was a failure because Blackpeople were in charge.
Some of the same language, someof the same rhetorical templates
(10:38):
that were used in the 19thcentury are being used today.
And so I just find thatfascinating on one end as a
scholar and looking at it, butalso highly disappointing that
we are reliving a lot of this.
SPEAKER_00 (10:52):
Thank you for sharing the ways in which
history comes back to haunt usand why it is so important for
us to know it so that we canresist, right?
And to also point out thecontradictions of racism in
America, right?
And the contradictions of evenreligion, right?
A religion that, you know, Jesusbeing a first century
(11:15):
abolitionist who read from thescrolls of Isaiah to announce
his purpose, his ministry was toset the captives free, was to
feed the hungry, clothe thenaked, give, you know, drink to
those who are thirsty, to healthe brokenhearted, right?
That there was a social plan inJesus' ministry, yet there's a
contradiction in not a God ofliberation, but the God of white
(11:37):
supremacy that undergirds theidea that God isn't for
everyone's liberation, that Godis this exceptionalist, that
it's only for the powerful, theprivileged.
And so that is a contradictionthat we see in religion, but you
also mentioned the contradictionwe see in race, that the people
who undermine democracy can't bethe same people who are in
(11:58):
charge of it, right?
Wow.
I want you to talk to us aboutthese contradictions
specifically within Trump'spresidency.
We have seen a ban list thatincludes books, words, and
ideologies.
Why do you think the governmentis so vested in rewriting
history with the erasure ofmarginalized groups,
(12:21):
particularly black people?
SPEAKER_02 (12:24):
I'm so glad you brought it up because it is a
rhetorical action plan.
It is.
(14:53):
I have been calling for hushharbers to reappear so we can
begin to start having these kindof conversations and dialogue
because a lot of people don'tunderstand the period in which
we find ourselves.
It's up to us to share what weknow and help the people move
forward.
SPEAKER_00 (15:12):
In a time where information becomes power, and
it is important for us tocontrol the narrative because we
understand that misinformationis a tool of empower, empire,
and it is a part of the 12-pointplan of authoritarianism.
(15:33):
And so the erasure of historyand of facts, right, is the tool
that is used for oppression andto undermine our democracy.
And so we have to keep tellingthe story anyway.
And what's so powerful, what isso powerful, Dr.
Johnson, about our history.
(15:54):
And it was a history that wastranscribed.
So we hold the power because wealways have the power to tell
our story that we don't have todepend on what they decide to
publish or not publish.
But but it was the grios, it wasthe storytellers, it was the
(16:14):
stories that were transmittedfrom mother to daughter at the
kitchen table with the hot combor hair braiding.
And so the power of our historyis to not be silenced so that we
can continue to tell our story.
SPEAKER_02 (16:31):
And that was long before all history becomes a
thing in the academy, right?
SPEAKER_00 (16:36):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (16:43):
Once we begin to make the connections, then we
begin to see oh, this is one ofthe reasons why they did not
want enslaved folk to know howto read or write.
Because if you don't know how toread and write, then you may not
know what you need to know.
But as you just mentioned, Dr.
Robert, that still didn't stopthe information because the old
(17:05):
traditions kept being passeddown.
And so we might need in this, Ilove how you said it, in this
age of misinformation ofdisinformation, information
becomes the powerful tool thatwe need.
So I am inspired even right nowto do even more.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (17:26):
Absolutely.
And I know you are your area ofexpertise is rhetoric.
So before I pivot to the morespecific historical figures,
that is also a part of yourexpertise.
Tell us why, in an age wheremisinformation is privilege, why
information is power through thelens and expertise of rhetoric
(17:50):
and race.
SPEAKER_02 (17:51):
I've been trying to drill in on that question all
week long.
I was in a, you know, back inJanuary, I was in a one-week
intensive and religiouscommunication and public
theology.
And one of the things that wehave wrestled with from the
beginning to the end was thefact that we were trying to
figure out what rhetoric, whatwords, what language to us, how
(18:17):
do we come into a space that'salready noisy, that's already
filled with channels.
Maybe the first and foremoststep that we need to do is to
walk into or to be in a space.
And when we find ourselves witha concopy of voices already
echoing, one of the things thatwe can do is go back to the
(18:40):
Africana tradition ofcommunication.
And one of the first canon orthe first canon of Egyptian
rhetoric is silence, is to sitand to discern.
And not just to jump quickly andto write your think piece or to
(19:00):
write or to say somethingquickly, but to sit for a moment
and just hear and listen andthen discern what it is that you
need to say, and to be groundedin mock, which is truth,
wholeness, shalom, well-being,and being an authentic person of
(19:22):
truth and a bearer of truth,meaning that I believe what I'm
about to say or write right nowis true.
And if not, I have opportunityto come and to rectify or to
apologize or to make right, butto stand in that truth and to
keep pushing truth.
(19:43):
Case study I did a while ago wason the January 6th insurrection.
And as much as people are sayingthere wasn't an insurrection,
there was just people walkingand having a good time.
A few folk got out of hand,maybe, but they were just
tourists and they would much asall of that was going on, I just
kept speaking the truth.
(20:05):
Don't be gaslit, don't befooled.
You know it's in here.
Discern what it is for yourself.
And you need to do a little bitmore investigation if you really
want to find out the truth aboutthat matter, because everything
that's coming on our socialmedia feeds is not true and it's
(20:26):
not for our best interest.
One of the things that we'regonna have to protect ourselves,
and this comes down to electiontime when people are pitting up
against one another.
It's time out for that.
We have to come together and tobegin to understand that, hey, I
know what it is that you'retrying to do.
(20:48):
I know what you want me to do, Iknow where you're trying to
point me, I know what you'retrying to persuade me to do, but
I'm not gonna do that because Iknow your game now, and I am
going to do something that'sgoing to benefit me and my
family and ours and the whole ofthe community.
Because going back to theAfrican traditional
(21:09):
communication lens, Bluetoothsays, I am because we are, and I
cannot be if you are not who youare.
SPEAKER_00 (21:18):
Yeah, that's really good.
And I think it was John in Johnwhere it says, and ye shall know
the truth, and the truth shallset you free.
Ye shall know the truth, and thetruth shall set you free.
So there is liberation in truthtelling, that truth telling is a
form of resistance, and it'salso a holy and sacred act.
(21:40):
That is very important.
And I'm glad that you raised it.
I'm also glad, and as you wereidentifying significant
historical periods, there is arichness to understanding that
our history does not start inslavery.
Right.
As we talk about truth asfreedom, then let's be clear
that our history does.
Not begin in our servitude.
(22:03):
But there is a rich history thatdates back to Africa, the
continent, that continent thatis one of the richest lands of
natural resources, a continentthat originated civilization, a
continent where we were kingsand queens and inventors and
tribal leaders and wholefamilies.
(22:26):
War is waged against that land.
That rhetoric and narratives arewaged against that land because
of the richness that came fromit.
America wouldn't be who it iswithout the origins of the human
race and civilization, sciences,math that comes from the
continent Africa.
(22:47):
And if we can't be proud ofthat, then it alters our
self-determination and identity.
There's a vestment in teachingus that Africa isn't the
starting point.
Slavery is.
What I like about the work thatyou're doing is also recognizing
(23:08):
that our history in America isrich when we start from
Reconstruction and also notslavery.
When I teach my course at theUniversity of Kansas, Jailbirds
and Jayhawks, Abolition andBleeding Kansas, I look at
abolition's starting point froma reconstruction,
reconstruction, andpost-Reconstruction, not a
(23:29):
pre-antebellum andpost-antibellum narrative.
I want us to go deeper and todrill down into some specifics.
Talk about in this timeline,Africa pre-Reconstruction and
post-Reconstruction, where do welearn about Henry McNeil Turner?
Who is a historical figure thatis at the center of your work?
(23:54):
Talk to us about the importanceof Henry McNeil Turner for Black
history.
SPEAKER_02 (23:59):
Oh my God, I can talk about that all day.
Turner was born February 1st,1834.
So apropos, I guess, he's bornin Black History Month, which we
now know is Black History Month.
What can we say about Turner?
Turner lived through He wasnever enslaved himself, but he
worked alongside the enslaved.
The stories and all of the songsand all of the knowledge and the
(24:21):
wisdom that came from thoseancestors were poured into him.
He self-talked.
So he's an allodac.
He taught himself how to readand write.
And by the time it was all over,he spoke Hebrew and Greek and,
of course, English and otherlanguages and dialects.
He becomes, during the CivilWar, the first African-American
(24:44):
chaplain of the Union Army,which is now, of course, the
United States of America.
He becomes a state legislator.
He becomes all of thesewonderful things, becomes a
bishop and all of those types ofthings.
But he is a fascinating figurebecause you can see, and this is
what I try to chart out in mywritings on Turner, his
(25:07):
rhetorical trajectory, or hisgrowth as a theologian, really,
or his growth as a religiousstudies person or a person of
faith.
Because he starts off as one ofthe most conservative as it
relates to the Bible, becausethis is what he had read, and
this is what he had read ofothers, and he believed it.
(25:29):
And by the time in 1915, when hepasses away, he is one of the
most progressive thinkers of theage, ordaining women in 1885,
saying that we ought to have ablack understanding of the
Bible.
And as some of the women,Elizabeth Katie Stanning during
the 1890s were contemplatingdoing a woman's Bible.
(25:52):
He was saying, we ought to havea black Bible.
And all of his work, all of it,points to an abolitionist
framework, Freedom, Liberation,and Democracy.
And he began to grow and to seethe context in which he finds
himself.
One of the most fascinatingthings is that, you know, in
(26:14):
1866, he gives the EmancipationDay speech, the first day of
emancipation for black folk, andhe gets up there and in his
clothes, he says, Let bygones bebygones.
Let us not hold any grudges.
Let us be brothers, and we cancome together to work together
(26:37):
to make a better place foreverybody.
He is very conciliatory.
By 1895, hell is an improvementas far as the Negro is
concerned.
He is totally away from that.
So the fascinating piece abouthis life and his work is how
does he make that shift?
(26:58):
How does he make the change?
And he does it by drawing on, ofcourse, his black faith, drawing
on the folk that he grew upwith, drawing on some of the
ministers who are ported to him.
And of course, being a thinkerand being a theologian, or what
(27:19):
we now would call a publictheologian, he's doing theology
in the public.
And he's criticizing and he'srereading his Bible and he's
growing, and he's leaving thesenuggets of wisdom for all of us
to share.
So I can just go on with Turner.
Turner was just a remarkablefigure.
He saw slavery, the Civil War,all those battles,
(27:43):
Reconstruction became part ofthe Georgia State legislature.
And then, of course, we've seenpost-Reconstruction and even the
turn of the century before hepasses away.
SPEAKER_00 (27:54):
Wow.
So he occupied multiple spaces,the religious, the church, and
politics.
And so that's very interesting.
The first African-Americanchaplain, a state legislator,
and also a bishop in the AMEchurch.
I am ordained AME.
I'm an itinerant elder inAfrican Methodism.
(28:16):
And to become ordained, Iremember getting asked the
question by Bishop Norris (28:19):
who were the four horsemen?
And Henry McNeil Turner is oneof them.
But talk to us who isinfluencing Turner to become all
the things that you mentioned.
And then also who is influencedby Turner after his passing and
contemporary scholarship andeven religious leaders.
SPEAKER_02 (28:41):
Oh, wow.
Turner has in Florence, itstarts, and this is what I talk
about in the book or in TheForgotten Prophet.
It starts at the feet of hisgrandmother.
The reason why Turner was such agreat storyteller or a great
preacher, even, was the factthat his grandmother used to sit
(29:01):
him out on the porch and talkabout stories.
And that's when he learned, asfamily law told it, that
Turner's grandfather was anAfrican king.
And he was caught up in theslave trade.
And when they brought him toAmerica and found out that he
was this African king, he couldnot be enslaved because you,
(29:24):
quote, could not enslave royalblood or some law with things.
That story stayed with Turner.
Turner told that story, I don'tknow, maybe 200, 300 times
throughout his life.
It stayed with him because ithelped him understand, going
back to what you said earlierabout not starting here, that
(29:44):
there is an African past wherewe were kings and queens.
There was an African past wherethere was some notoriety to my
name.
And Turner always fell back onthat.
The second influencer of Turner,especially early on, believe it
or not, were women.
And the women who were in hischurch that helped him preach,
(30:05):
helped him write.
He is one of the things I loveabout Turner is that he just
didn't keep that to himself.
He will write about women whohelped him with his sermon and
sermon preparation, the Englishlanguage, and all of those
things early on in his ministry.
Mrs.
Hardin, I believe her name was,when she passed away, he writes
(30:28):
this beautiful obituary of herin the Christian Recorder.
And by the way, shout out to theAME Church and the Christian
Recorder newspaper.
Had it not been for the, wewouldn't know half of what we
know about 19th-century blackchurch life and about black
church period and just blackpeople and black communities,
had it not been for theChristian Recorder newspaper.
(30:49):
So thank you for that.
I always like to shout out myAME sisters and brothers.
SPEAKER_00 (30:53):
And shout out to John Thomas.
My good friend John Thomas forsharing that publication
forward.
SPEAKER_02 (30:59):
So Turner is influenced then.
And of course, Daniel Payne wasa big influence.
He always looked up to Payne,even when Payne didn't really
want him to be too involved inpolitics or gotten a little bit
too radical for Bishop Payne, hestill looked up to him.
And last but not least,influences early on that helped
(31:23):
Turner is some of the earlierenslaved preachers that he
heard.
He said that old man Sankey, forinstance, I think that was one
of the preachers that he said,old man Sankey can outpreach
anybody today.
He has preached circles aroundfolk today.
He was really in touch withspirit and in tune to what's
(31:44):
really going on.
So Turner was one of thosepreachers that talked about the
spirit a lot, that you had to bein the spirit to proclaim the
word of God.
And he said that those enslavedpreachers did just that because
of their condition, but theystill preach with them and
vigor.
Those are some of hisinfluencers.
(32:04):
Who he influenced?
A whole bunch of one of the onesthat he really looked up to in
his older age was another one ofyour bishops, Reverdy Ransom.
He thought Reveredy Ransom andwhat he was doing eventually
would do in Chicago with theInstitutional Church, AME.
Institutional Church was Jeffalso.
(32:25):
He thought that some of thebishops who came after him were
not as radical as Turner mighthave been, but he still
influenced them a whole lot.
He influenced a lot of your AMEcounterparts in Africa.
And I think the theology we talkabout today, I think one of the
more contemporary figures whohas gone on to be with the
(32:48):
ancestors, of course, is JamesCole, and some of the
scholarship now that AMEministers and all of us do, with
his whole God is a Negroconcept, or I like to just say
his proclamation.
SPEAKER_00 (33:02):
Before we get to know how is the Negro, can we
believe it that Turner wasinfluenced by women?
Yes.
Yes, I can believe it.
SPEAKER_02 (33:13):
Known too, because Turner talked about that.
That's why we know about ittoday.
He wrote about that.
He didn't keep it to himself.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:22):
Yeah, and feel free to say more about that.
The Amy Church was one of thefirst denominations to elect and
consecrate a woman to bishop.
Bishop Basti McKenzie being thefirst elected and consecrated
bishop in the AME Church, alsomy soror.
And we have women, a very activeand robust women in ministry.
In fact, a lot of bishops aren'telected to this day without the
(33:45):
support of women in ministry.
Women are a strong force in theAME church.
We aren't often or always giventhe reciprocity that we deserve.
And that's not just in thechurch.
We can look broadly in societyas well.
Black women being one of themost civically engaged and
(34:07):
active voting bloc.
And yet we are underrepresentedin many offices, if not all
areas of government.
Likewise, in the church, we arethe primary stakeholders,
instrumental historically andcurrently in electing our
leaders, but there's just asmall space reserved for us to
(34:27):
actually lead the church, notonly at the episcopal level, but
also first churches and thedenomination and the connection.
SPEAKER_02 (34:58):
I think, first of all, on issues of gender, I
think the way that Turner, thetrajectory where Turner was
going, today he will be morewhen he ordained Sarah Hughes in
1885, ordained her as an elder,and she had already been
preaching all around NorthCarolina.
(35:19):
Everybody recognized her giftsand abilities.
He was laying hands on folk anddid the same thing to her that
he did to all those men.
When the other bishops rescindedthe ordination, he left it
alone.
He didn't do it anymore.
He kept on writingpronouncements about women and
(35:39):
that they should be able, thepriest that they should be able
to be ordained and all of that.
But he never, he didn't push it.
I think today, if he was living,he would be really on that side
of empowering women in ministryfull stop.
Full stop.
Same thing with gender and Ithink the way that Turner is
(36:01):
going and it's there, of course,we don't know, but I think if
you take a liberationistposition in your theology, in
your scholarship, and anythingreally, you are open to things.
You have to be, because youunderstand that I am not totally
(36:21):
free until you are totally free.
So I think Turner would havebeen one of the leading bishops
as it relates to gender andsexuality as well.
As far as what's going on nowand with the other bishops, I
unequivocally know, I think,what he would say.
(36:43):
It would be almost the samething he was saying during the
1890s and during the 1900s whenhe and the bishops would go at
it in the newspaper.
Turner was very pessimisticabout America during that time.
He didn't think America wasliving up to its value and could
not live up to its value.
That's why he's promotingimmigration.
(37:05):
He was like, let's get out ofhere.
Which, by the way, is afull-stop work stoppage.
We go, we out.
I always ask people.
Just think about for a moment ifthe one million or two million
people that Turner said wasneeded to go to Africa and to
eventually work with Africans.
It was at first, like everybodyelse, let us go and help out the
(37:27):
Africans.
But he really realized afterthis trip to Africa that they're
pretty good.
SPEAKER_00 (37:32):
They got a whole lot going on.
We actually want to work withthem.
Absolutely.
Pan-Africanist movement isimportant.
And so tell me, you know,because of the pro-black agenda
and the pro-African repatriatingback to Africa agenda of Henry
McNeil Turner, talk to us aboutthe significance of the
proclamation that you mentioned,that God is a Negro.
(37:53):
Now we know Jacqueline Grant,decades later, argues that God
is a black woman.
We know James Cohn says God ison the side of the oppressed and
that Jesus is black.
And these traditions arepredating to a proclamation that
is coming way before through themouth of Bishop Henry McNeil
(38:16):
Turner, who argues that God is aNegro.
What does this declaration meantoday in this current political
climate with a God of whitesupremacy running rampant and
this idea of white Christiannationalism?
Talk to us about thisdeclaration of God as a negro.
SPEAKER_02 (38:33):
I think it can represent two polar opposites of
opinions.
First of all, of course, God isa Negro, as Turner mentions in
his writing when he talked aboutGod being a Negro, that nobody,
and he's really talking aboutpeople of Christian faith, if
you cannot see, if you cannotimagine God looking like you or
(38:56):
being like you, in features andall of that, then there's no,
that's what he literally said.
There is no hope for people whocannot see God as themselves.
Because therefore you arenullifying you being made in the
image of God.
So his argument, everybody fromtime immorial, he said,
(39:18):
everybody knew that orunderstood that God was, that
God was, they were made in theimage of God, that God was like
them.
And so that's important becauseif you understand that you are
made in the image of God, thenyou can carry yourself in
different ways.
(39:39):
You can do this work, you canstand and be truthful to the
faith.
So, yes, that is important, andthat's still important today
because if God is a Negro or ifGod is black, then God is not
the white supremacist God thatis running rampant today.
But I'm gonna flip side of that.
(40:00):
The little piece that I did awhile back as well, too, that if
the be on the theodicy side, theWilliam Jones side is God a
white racist.
So if God, well no, if God is aNegro, the question may be, is
God Uncle Ruckus?
Is God if God okay?
SPEAKER_01 (40:23):
If I can say God is a Negro or God is black, why is
it that it seems like Godreally, really sometimes, Lord,
come on now?
You you don't seem like youreally kind of like who you are.
SPEAKER_00 (40:36):
Well, let me push back on this.
Let me push back on it.
Um is the claim that God is aNegro, is that exclusionary?
Is it literal?
Is it figurative?
Is it symbolic?
And is it exclusionary?
Is God other things?
Is God bigger than language,bigger than social identifiers?
(40:56):
Talk to us.
SPEAKER_02 (40:57):
No, no, you're right.
That is actually Turner's pointin saying God.
He is not saying God isliterally a Negro.
He is trying, this is arhetorical trope.
He is trying to get people tounderstand how when you read the
God is the Negro text, he evenleaves room that God being
woman, being other things.
(41:18):
So, yes, Turner is is trying atthis point with everything is
against black folk, all of theteachings, all of religion, all
of the pictures, everything, allof them all, what you read in
history books is againstblackness.
The very thing that you must doin the midst of all of that is
(41:42):
to believe that you are stillloved by God and that you are
made in the image of God.
SPEAKER_00 (41:48):
And now I feel like we need to say, take that to
Trump.
So I it is a very importantclaim that God is a Negro that
is especially freeing,liberating for today, because as
you opened up with that historybecomes this pigulum of back and
(42:10):
forth, right?
And we are swinging back intime.
And if we are swinging back intime with oppressive tools, then
we have to swing back with thetools that we use to fight
oppression then.
And that are these statements,whether rhetorical or otherwise,
that God is a Negro, that God ison the side of the oppressed,
(42:31):
that God is a liberator.
And it's important for the blackchurch and religious leaders to
espouse this liberation theologyover and against the agenda of
white Christian nationalism andeven the evangelical
hyper-spiritualizing, the ideathat we cannot speak about
religion and politics, that wehave to be so heavily bound that
(42:54):
we are no earthly good.
That is a lie.
And so we got to tell the truthand shame the devil.
And the truth is that religionis political because it was the
state that sought to executeJesus and that Constantine
co-opted the religion ofChristianity that became a state
(43:15):
religion.
So religion, particularlyChristianity, is deeply
political, and Christianity wasused to justify the slave
recracy, and it continues to beused to weaponize scripture
against the undocumented,against black people, against
queer people and those who areon the margins.
And so this claim that isrhetorical but also political is
(43:38):
important for a faith thatliberates.
And so I hope that our church,from the mouth of its one of its
founders, particularly in theAME church, will continue in
this prophetic tradition ofspeaking truth and
unpologetically black about whowe are and the importance of our
image in God who looks.
(44:00):
Like us, and how, and I know youwant to jump in there, as you
are crafting your response.
I also invite you to share withus that what how does this make
Bishop Turner abolitionist?
Right, and what is theimportance for abolitionists for
the abolition for the blackchurch?
SPEAKER_02 (44:21):
Abolition to abolitionist to me means
freedom, liberation, andjustice.
One of the things that Turnerwas trying to do when he
realized that the big move goingback to Africa probably would
not happen because of a wholelot of different issues and
problems, namely money and chipsand all of that.
(44:44):
It's not because it was not thewill of the people, especially
in the South, they were ready togo anywhere.
And we see that.
One of the things that Turner'srhetoric does, that I think is
abolitionist in this way, isthat it freed the minds of many
(45:05):
folk who really honestly thoughtthat they were literally, not
figuratively, but literallyinferior to especially white
people, and really all people,but mostly white people.
And that when you feel likethat, you don't feel like doing
(45:27):
nothing.
You just sit in it.
And what Turner did was fire uppeople to begin to understand
that, yeah, I am made in theimage of God.
I can do all things, I can dothese things.
And so what I argue in the bookis that Turner's immigrationist
rhetoric becomes just liberationrhetoric that frees folk to
(45:52):
steal away, if you will, in themiddle of the night and to move
up north.
They moved as far as they couldin order to find freedom and to
find some modicum of decency andrespect to their persons and to
their family and their kin.
I like to think that Turner'simmigrationist rhetoric in the
(46:16):
last third of his life, the waythat he was talking about and
critiquing America, pinpointcritiques that we still use
today, how he was critiquingfolk who adopted the main line
embedded theology of his day,including some black preachers
and the back and forth that theywere going in on.
(46:39):
The way that he did all of that,is to me at least, when I study
his rhetoric, is an openingfreedom, liberation, something
akin to what people say that aRobert Terrell would say about
an Alchemist later on, and otherfreedom fighters who help people
understand that you are reallymore than what they say that you
(47:03):
are.
Matter of fact, you're a wholelot more.
You are not what they say thatyou are.
And you need to start believingthat and start receiving that
for yourself.
And a lot of black people did.
And that's why a lot of blackpeople liberated themselves even
in slavery times, but alsoliberated themselves or
attempted to during those toughand trying times when everything
(47:27):
was against them.
SPEAKER_00 (47:29):
Yeah.
Thank you.
And that what you're sharingwith us also speaks to the power
of rhetoric to shift narratives.
So I thank you for emphasizingthat.
As we look to conclude this timetogether and this important
conversation, I want you topivot and segue into your more
recent work.
You're writing a book currentlythat's talking about the 19th
(47:51):
century colored conventionmovement.
What is this historical momentand why is it important?
SPEAKER_02 (47:58):
Well, once again, shout out to the AME Church.
Hey, in 1830, at Mother Bemplein Philadelphia, the first color
convention was held.
Richard Allen, of course,hosted.
The color convention had been amovement during the 19th century
that predates the abolitionistmovement, predates the
(48:19):
anti-slavery movement, and gaverise to many of the orators that
we know about in the 19thcentury: Frederick Douglass,
Bishop Turner, Francis EllenWalker Hopper, so on and so on.
This colored convention movementis the first sustained movement
(48:41):
led and operated by black peoplein the 19th century.
I actually argue that it is thefounding understanding of what
we now know as, quote, socialjustice rhetoric.
The black rhetorical traditionis birthed out of this.
And what I mean by that is, ofcourse, black people have been
(49:04):
writing and speaking way before1830 or 1865, which I dated
because that's when blackSoutherners could actually speak
freely because they wereemancipated.
So this black rhetoricaltradition that we now know and
understand is kind of burnt outof these color conventions.
(49:25):
It is black-owned, black red.
These were black spaces andplaces to talk about politics,
to talk about what's going on inthe community, what's going on
in our churches, and what can wedo.
It was the first politicaloperation that we had, even
before the 15th Amendment, whenblack men got the right to vote.
(49:50):
But even when those votes weresuppressed, and really it was
all over.
And so the point that I'm tryingto make with this edited
collection and my futurewritings with the color
convention, I want us to go backand read those minutes, those
documents, and see what theywere doing in these spaces and
(50:12):
places in which they met.
I'm so thankful that they hadsecretaries and people collected
minutes and they made pamphlets,and the black newspaper were
reporting and chronicling whatwas going on.
It was just a movement in and ofitself, and I am so excited
about this new project.
(50:33):
I think I'm gonna do a couple ofthings with it.
And the first, right now, isthis entity collection, and then
I got one that's coming out juston the Tennessee state cover
conventions from 1865 to 1875,and trying to show how the state
of Tennessee moved from one ofthe first states, if not the
(50:54):
first state, I think it was thefirst southern state to grant
suffrage to black men.
And by 1870, you know, electinga former Confederate general as
governor, and by 1875, Tennesseeis not known as being anything
(51:15):
looking like a progressivestate.
SPEAKER_00 (51:17):
So thank you so much.
After the first book on our AMEbishop, I think we were ready to
give you your deacon ordination.
Well, after a second book that'scoming out of the mothership, I
think you might earn your elderordination, honorary elder
ordination in the I will behonored if I am found worthy of
(51:42):
the great AME church.
And what I appreciate about theAME Church is that it is
impossible to talk about Blackhistory and not mention our
bishops and founders.
And so I I really appreciatethat, as well as our women in
ministry, Charina Lee andothers.
So thank you for keeping thathistory alive.
(52:03):
Well, I'm gonna go into thisrapid round of fun questions for
you, but first tell us how canpeople support your work?
Give us the titles of yourbooks, how we can purchase it in
ways that people can stayconnected with you.
SPEAKER_02 (52:17):
The two turn of the three turn of books now The
Forgotten Prophet, Bishop HenryMcNeil Turner, and the
African-American prophetictradition.
And all these books are widelyavailable.
If you just Google them, they'llpop up.
My second book, Monograph onTurner, No Future in the
Country, The Prophetic Pessimismof Bishop Henry McNeil Turner,
that is with Sicker Press.
(52:39):
And then there's a third book onthe speeches on Bishop Turner.
And I think also looking for apublisher to publish some of the
writing that we find in theChristian Recorder and other
newspapers, which are morewhat's the word I want to use,
jarring, maybe even moreentertaining, makes people
(52:59):
wonder wow, did he say that backin 1888?
Yes, he did.
And so we're looking at, youknow, doing something like that.
But my latest book was TheSummer of 2020, George Floyd and
the Resurgence of the BlackLives Matter movement.
And there might be something, atleast something coming out
behind that to talk about thisperiod after 2020, kind of
(53:23):
leading us up to how we get tothis period.
But we'll see.
Those are, you know, within thecontext of what we're talking
about, or some of the books andwritings and stuff like that.
You can reach me on social mediaat A.E.
Johnson PhD.
All of the handles.
Not really on Twitter anymore orX, but Blue Sky, Facebook,
(53:46):
Instagram.
I'm there.
And if you are led by theSpirit, the best way financially
to support is just to supportour church.
Gifts of Life Ministry.
Right here in Memphis,Tennessee.
If you Google Gifts of Life,you'll see ways to give
financially and otherwise.
(54:06):
And I've pointed all that backto the church.
So thank you.
Thank you in advance for all ofyour support.
SPEAKER_00 (54:15):
Thank you so much, Dr.
Johnson.
And also, we would have to getyou on our abolition academy so
that we could put a coursetogether that is connecting the
dots of then and now of ourBlack leaders, including Turner,
through the George Floydmovement, Black Lives Matter
movement in this currentcontext.
Likewise, we would love toinvite you onto our social media
(54:37):
platform.
And so while people are exitingTwitter, we are also an
alternative.
You can download theabolitionist sanctuary app and
you can apply to become a memberon our social platform, which is
a sanctuary away from biasedalgorithms and vicious bots, but
we are a group of people who areconnected by justice and
(55:01):
liberation.
And so I invite you to join oursocial media platform as well.
And then the last churchannouncement I have is when you
talk about the work that you'redoing, this archival work, it
also reminds me of theimportance of our churches to
digitize our liturgies, ourBible studies, our announcements
(55:23):
and programs so that we couldcontinue to transmit our history
over and against the statetrying to undermine it.
So as we go into this rapidround, Dr.
Johnson, I'm gonna throw outsome words and you give me the
first thought that comes inmind.
Doesn't have to be a sentence, aphrase, just a thought, a word
that comes to mind.
You ready?
SPEAKER_02 (55:43):
Okay, that's gonna get me in trouble.
Come on.
SPEAKER_00 (55:47):
James Cohn Gary Dorian.
SPEAKER_02 (55:53):
Wow.
Henry McNeil Turner Journey.
SPEAKER_01 (56:06):
Proclamation The Academy, but needed, but needed.
SPEAKER_02 (56:22):
Yeah, but powerful but needed.
SPEAKER_00 (56:36):
All right, favorite way to relax.
SPEAKER_02 (56:39):
Oh wow.
Looking at some TV sometimes.
SPEAKER_00 (56:43):
Beach or mountains.
SPEAKER_02 (56:46):
Probably the beach.
SPEAKER_00 (56:48):
Netflix and chill or turnout?
The pain.
SPEAKER_02 (56:55):
Sometimes the turnout is nice.
Sometimes Netflix and chill isnice.
SPEAKER_00 (57:00):
Black history.
SPEAKER_02 (57:02):
Need it.
SPEAKER_00 (57:03):
And last and not least, abolitionist Sanctuary.
SPEAKER_01 (57:09):
Grateful.
SPEAKER_00 (57:10):
Thank you for joining this conversation on the
Abolitionist Sanctuary podcast.
Please download and share on allplatforms.
Again, I am your host, ReverendDr.
Nikia Smith Robert, the founderand executive director of
Abolitionist Sanctuary.
You can follow us on YouTube,Instagram, Facebook, and
(57:30):
download our social media apps.
Also email us to join ournewsletter.
You can enroll in our coursesand become certified at
abolitionacademy.com.
Don't forget to become a memberand subscribe to our mailing
list atabolitionistsanctuary.org.
As we conclude this episode,remember that abolition is not
(57:52):
only a practice, but it is a wayof life.
And for me, abolition is myreligion.
Let's lead a faith basedabolitionist movement together.
Dr.
Johnson, thank you so much forjoining our show.
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