June 22, 2026 • 60 mins
We celebrate Juneteenth and five years of Abolitionist Sanctuary by telling the truth about how freedom gets reclaimed through sisterhood, legacy, and community care. We name what it takes to protect Black mothers from punishment-first systems and why faith-based abolition has to look like real support, not shame.
• introducing Reverend Dr Najuma Smith Pollard and Candace Benbow and grounding in faith, abolition, and Black motherhood
• sharing pronouns, what we’re wearing, and naming our people as a practice of presence
• catching up on current priorities, creativity, parenting, peace, and joy as survival
• reflecting on vision boards, courage, and betting on ourselves beyond credentials
• unpacking what Juneteenth means amid recalling, contradiction, and commodification
• remembering founding board service and why Black women saying yes matters
• honoring our mamas, grief, gratitude, and the complexity of Black mother daughter bonds
• naming the criminalization of Black motherhood and rejecting carceral “solutions”
• lifting up abolitionist virtues like compassion, care, courage, creativity, and community
• making the case for training, funding, and building sanctuaries nationwide
As we close, please download and share on all platforms. You can follow us on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, and download our social mobile app. Also enroll in our courses at abolitionacademy.com and become certified. Don't forget to become a member and subscribe to our mailing list at abolitionistsctuary.org.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_04 (00:05):
Welcome to the Abolitionist Sanctuary Podcast,
where we talk faith, abolition,and black motherhood.
I am your host, Reverend Dr.
Nikia Smith Robert, the founderand executive director of
Abolitionist Sanctuary.
We are a national coalitionleading a faith-based
(00:26):
abolitionist movement.
Thank you to our audio andvisual audiences for joining us
on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook,and all streaming platforms.
Let's build abolitionistsanctuaries together with this
critical and candid conversationfor today's episode.
(00:52):
Welcome to the AbolitionistSanctuary Podcast.
I am your host, Reverend Dr.
Nakia Smith Robert.
I am excited to be here for thefinal episode of season three
and also to celebrate not justJuneteenth, but the fifth
anniversary of AbolitionistSanctuary.
I am joined today with ourguests, the Reverend Dr.
(01:13):
Najuma Smith Pollard, as well asCandace Benbo.
I would like to give anintroduction starting with
Reverend Dr.
Najuma Smith Pollard, who is anassistant director of community
and public engagement with theUSC Center for Religion and
Civic Culture.
Dr.
Najuma combines her experienceas a pastor and expertise as a
(01:34):
community leader to help faithleaders become full partners in
the work of social change.
Dr.
Najuma leads programming for theCecil Murray Center for
Community Engagement, which isfocused at and housed at the
Center for Religion and CivicCulture.
Dr.
Najuma is a pastor, motivationalspeaker, author, life coach,
radio personality, and communityactivist.
(01:56):
In 2014, she launched the Wordof Encouragement Community
Church in Los Angeles.
And pursuing her passion toserve others beyond the walls of
the church, Dr.
Najuma also founded the companyLiving on Assignment, which is a
personal development coachingand consulting firm that helps
(02:17):
people live rich and meaningfullives.
Dr.
Najuma holds a BS in managementfrom Pepperdine University, a
Bachelor of Theology degree fromthe Southern California School
of Ministry, an MBA fromWoodbury University, and a
doctorate in ministry fromUnited Theological Seminary.
She is an alumna of the Passingthe Mantle Civic Engagement and
(02:40):
Community Development Instituteat USC, the precursor to the USC
Cecil Murray Center's FaithLeadership Institute.
I also would like to introduceour guest, Candace Marie
Benbone, who is a multi-genretheologian who situates her work
at the intersections of beauty,faith, feminism, and culture,
(03:02):
giving voice to Black women'sshared experiences of healing
and journeying toward wellnessand wholeness.
Reimagining how faith can be atool of liberation and
transformation for women andgirls, she challenges Black
women to think critically abouthow they see God, themselves,
and the world.
Candace has written for variousoutlets, including Essence
(03:25):
Magazine, Glamour Magazine, TheRoot, The Grio, Vice,
Shondeland, Madame Noir, and TheMe Too movement.
Her first book, Shout Out RedLip Theology for church girls
who consider tithing into thebeauty supply store when Sunday
morning isn't enough, wasreleased on January 2022 and was
(03:48):
selected as an Amazon editor'spick.
Candace is also the founder ofZion Hill Media Group, a media
boutique that produces messagesof hope and healing across
various platforms.
A member of Alpha Kappa AlphaSorority Incorporated.
Candace holds degrees fromTennessee State University,
(04:10):
North Carolina CentralUniversity, and Duke Divinity
School.
Join me in welcoming our gueststoday.
SPEAKER_03 (04:19):
Hey y'all.
SPEAKER_04 (04:30):
Before we begin, tell us your pronouns, give us a
visual of how you are showing upin this space and who are your
people.
SPEAKER_01 (04:39):
All right.
Well, I guess I've been taggedto start us off.
So Reverend Juma Smith, Pollard,she, her are my pronouns.
I'm showing up today in thisdenim blue jacket, blue jean
jacket with little with a littlebit of pink in it.
I have my little gold hoops on,which I love, and in my natural
little, my little afro today.
(05:01):
And my people are ChoctawIndian.
My people are Cuban.
My people are from Louisiana andMississippi.
My people got a sprinkle ofHaitian and a sprinkle of
European French.
And so those are my people, andwe a little bit everything.
SPEAKER_05 (05:18):
I know that's right.
Yeah.
Hi everybody, it's Candace.
And my pronouns are she, her.
I am showing up today.
I have on an HBCU then and nowt-shirt, which prominently has
the Howard University graduationpicture of my Sorora and Vice
(05:42):
President Kamala Harris.
And I got on some diamond studyrings.
Who are my people?
My people come from, they'refrom South Carolina, Red Clay,
Carolina people.
Love being everything aboutbeing black.
And I speak the name of HelenBimbo.
(06:03):
I speak the name of Tommy LeeBimbo.
I speak the name of Bimbo whoground me, the ancestors that
ground me in this work, theBimbo's, the Jacksons, those are
my people.
And I'm glad that they are inthis space with all of our
people right now.
SPEAKER_04 (06:19):
Ashay, Ashay.
My pronouns are she, her, andI'm showing up in an
abolitionist sanctuary t-shirt.
Run to the swag show store andget you one, as well as a black
blazer with gold accentedbuttons, a boho, blonde braids,
and some fancy MVP red lip forour guests and her book, Red Lip
(06:44):
Theology.
And excited to be here.
My people are nine siblings thathailed from Williamston, North
Carolina to New York City.
And a single black mother at theage of 15 who gave birth to my
brother, and 10 years later tome, Carol Mercedes Smith.
All that I do, I do it for her.
(07:04):
So let's jump in.
I am excited.
This yeah, this episode is gonnahit a little different because
y'all, my homies.
Listen, listen, let's have agood time.
SPEAKER_02 (07:23):
We're gonna have a good time.
SPEAKER_04 (07:24):
Let's have a good time.
So it's been a minute.
You guys, I invited you on thisshow because you are our
inaugural board members.
We had many, but I wanted tospend time to talk to you,
particularly as thisorganization represents black
women and black mothers.
I wanted to have my girls in theroom to talk about your
(07:46):
experience with Abolish theSanctuary.
But it's been a minute, right?
It's been a while.
I think you guys served in 2022.
And so a lot has happened sincethen.
So if you will, just catch meup.
What's been going on in yourworld?
What are you prioritizing thesedays?
What are what is the work thatyou're doing that your soul must
(08:07):
have?
SPEAKER_01 (08:08):
Yeah, so life is looking good.
I right now, you know, I have a16-year-old who's learning how
to drive.
He'll be 17 in August, an11-year-old who has decided
she's going to be anastrophysicist at 11 who talks a
lot about stuff I have no idea.
Like she's always asked me aboutquestions related to the black
(08:30):
hole, and I'm clueless.
So that's what I'd be like,girl, I don't know.
I mommy don't know.
So I am actively trying to justyou know steer them in the
direction that's showing up forthem.
My son has discovered that he'sreally good at track, so I'm
focusing on like developing atrack star and like this
scientist, and neither of whicham I good at, right?
(08:50):
Uh and I have no clue about.
So that's what's still that'swhat my life is looking like day
to day.
And I also have my nephew who'swith me now, he's 22, helping
him get direction and get solidon what he wants to do, be have
and possess.
And the thing that I'm workingon prioritizing, I have a lot of
books in me that I've been I do,I've self-published a lot of my
books in the past, and so I'vecommitted to every month
(09:13):
finishing one of my books, likejust getting it done.
And because I have severalprojects that just need to get
done.
So that's actually my priority,and uh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (09:24):
That's amazing, right?
Right on, sis.
Right on.
SPEAKER_05 (09:27):
Yeah, what's going on for me?
So I have trans, I don't evenwant to call it a transition.
Like it's screenwriting has beensomething that's super that's
always been important to me.
Storytelling has been somethingthat I love, yeah, and
incredibly grateful for theopportunity to write a narrative
(09:49):
film for the National Museum ofAfrican American History and
Culture.
It's their first narrative filmthat they've done, and so it's
called Hush Harbor.
We go into production in July,and it's an amazing cast, and
some a cast of heavy hitters andproducers, and it's just been an
amazing opportunity.
(10:10):
And so really excited to be ableto move in a space that's
allowing me to bring woman oftheology to Arts and
Entertainment, and so there'ssome other things that are in
the pipeline that hopefullyseason four, I'll be able to
come back and share us morebroadly, more fully.
(10:31):
I am prioritizing girl, me, likethe world on fire.
And I have like, so I moved backto the south, so I live in
Georgia.
Being back in the south hasgrounded me in a way that like
I'm just super, super, I'm muchmore at peace.
And when like the world iscrazy, I go into my backyard,
(10:55):
and so like excited because I'mputting up my hammock for the
summer.
We finish here, stringing mylight, my new lights for the
back, cleaning off my grill andmy griddle so I can be out there
cooking.
I'm just really justprioritizing that like
everything else around us canand will be chaotic, but what
(11:17):
really matters is how we settlethe peace within ourselves,
yeah.
Because and that joy, like I Iunderstand so much more now why
the old Saints used to say,There's joy I had the world and
give you a world, and sosettling in that is my priority,
and nobody and nothing is gonnatake that from me.
SPEAKER_04 (11:38):
Wow, this is beautiful because having
journeyed with each other for solong, we were able to see each
other seed these dreams.
Yes, I'm getting chills, likejust to see it manifest and to
hear you guys speak it.
I am extremely full, extremelyfull.
So that that thank you, thankyou for sharing that.
(11:58):
And there's just there's justpower and manifestation, but not
in isolation and sisterhood.
Right, absolutely, that'spowerful, and it is because of
that sisterhood, because of thatcommunity that I had the courage
to dream abolitionist sanctuary.
And when you guys didn't knowwhat the heck I was thinking
(12:19):
about, what it was, what we weredoing, you guys signed up and
rolled with me and said yes tobecoming a founding board
member.
And that yes still paysdividends today.
I have funders, I haveinvestors, I have people who are
able to validate the work thatwe do because they look on our
(12:40):
website and they see who was onour founding board.
And I hear often you aresurrounded by some good people.
And because you believed in usand was able to stamp your
credibility on thisorganization, we continue to
grow today.
So thank you.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (12:55):
Thank you.
That was a since we're proud ofyou for pushing.
SPEAKER_05 (13:03):
You talk about the dream, like sitting five years
into this and remembering whenyou were talking about it, I
think that that too often assisters.
I was telling a friend the otherday, like, we know how to go get
the degrees, like we know how todo all of those things.
But sometimes when you have tobet on yourself beyond that,
(13:24):
when there's no like curriculumthat you gotta follow, no
paradigm that you need tofollow, and you know that you
are getting this piece of paperat the end of it.
Like, like sometimes betting onyourself and launching into the
deep is where a lot of usstruggle.
And it's just been exciting towatch you have done that.
(13:47):
And we're five years into whatis a lifetime of work, and what
you've done in five years is notonly something that you should
be proud of, but you've alsohelped to seed for other sisters
what it looks like to not justhave a vision board, but to like
live into that vision.
(14:08):
So we're just proud of you,girl.
SPEAKER_04 (14:11):
You are in your oil today.
Go ahead, go ahead and make mefeel like I'm gonna bust out of
tongues one more time.
You can and you should.
Yo, you can in your prayercloset.
You know what?
I'm I didn't start going back tochurch.
I didn't really give us awarning.
(14:32):
I like to say I'm redeemed andratchet.
I needed to know that you werecoming in this space on the
redeemed side.
SPEAKER_00 (14:39):
We can be ratchet too.
SPEAKER_05 (14:43):
What we got on here, like I literally enjoyed my
little ratchet moment of mylittle song vinegar, pork
rhymes, and I was listening toLotto, so like we can get in
that side too.
SPEAKER_04 (14:58):
No, but it's crazy because abolitionist sanctuary,
yes, was birthed from adissertation, yes, from personal
experience, but it was also agroup of women one January.
We jumped on a call and we hadvision boards, we created vision
boards, and on that vision boardhad abolitionist sanctuary.
And you are absolutely rightthat it's it is so easy to study
this stuff, right?
(15:19):
To keep pushing it back and say,I gotta study more, I gotta get
this credential, this degree,and put it on our vision board.
But it takes courage, it takescalculated risks to take that
deep launch, right?
So that launch into the deep tomanifest and actually execute.
So I appreciate that.
I recognize that this is alsoJuneteenth, and that is the if
(15:41):
you look on our incorporationpapers, abolitionist sanctuary
started on June 19, 2021.
And I was very intentional aboutthat because abolition is the
story of liberation, andcertainly our people were free
prior to coming across thattransatlantic.
And but what I think about thoseremnant of slaves who were left
(16:02):
over in Galvinston, Texas, until1865, though the Emancipation
Proclamation was announced in1863.
I think about the remnant of usthat remain today that are still
awaiting the fullness of ourfreedom.
An abolition sanctuary wants tolive into that, right?
How can we be conductors on thisnew railroad, right?
(16:24):
This underground railroad ofsetting our people free.
Tell me, what does Juneteenthmean for you guys?
SPEAKER_01 (16:31):
I look so much.
And again, thank you for justcreating this space.
I feel really honored to be inthis conversation with the two
of you today.
The importance of Juneteenth, Ithink it's the word that, as I
was looking at the questions,the word that kept coming to me
was recalling.
Like I feel that Juneteenth hasus to recall, think, recall our
(16:54):
not just the memory of ourancestors and the trauma and the
pain and the atrocities, butit's recalling to who we are,
right?
It's easy, you know, as we allkind of shared in the beginning,
like the things that we'reprioritizing and working on.
And it's easy to get reallyfocused on that and lost
sometimes, even in that.
You're trying to achieve, you'retrying to work, you're trying to
(17:15):
build, you're trying to create.
And it's easy to get lost in thesauce of that, especially in the
systems that we have tonavigate.
And then there's this Juneteenthmoment that brings you back, you
know, to who you are.
And I'm gonna use our dearfriend Dr.
Taman, like that homecoming.
It brings you back to yourself,it brings you back to the power
within, it brings you back tojust an authentic self.
(17:38):
That's what I appreciate aboutJuneteenth is the recalling, is
the coming back.
The other day I was, for thosethat are not in Los Angeles, an
area called Lamert Park whereit's a combination of
Christianity, Muslim, and thenthere's a great amount of
African spiritual practice thathappens in Lamour Park.
And so when you go there, youyou like you kind of come back
(18:00):
to yourself.
Like all this corporate stuffthat's around, especially if you
live in LA, this Hollywoodcorporate stuff, like that takes
a backseat.
And you get to come back.
So for me, Juneteenth is arecalling, it's a coming back to
our ourself, coming back to notjust the atrocity, but the power
of our ancestors and who theyreally were and are in us today.
(18:24):
So that's what it means to me.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (18:28):
Yeah, I've a lot of the same, and honestly, I've had
to if and I can say this andshare this with y'all, like I've
been also wrestling the last fewyears with what Juneteenth needs
to mean, given thecommodification of it.
The fact that white people getto just be off work, just like
(18:48):
that.
That just is a rebound.
So like this idea, right, thatlike it is now this like federal
holiday.
Yeah, I think Trump still let itbe a federal holiday.
I don't know, but like this ideathat it's now like nationally
recognized reminds me of justthe what it means to live in to
(19:12):
be black in America, which isthis complication, right?
Of like there's really no placethat belongs to us, with the
exception of places that wecarve out ourselves, right?
And so like Juneteenth has nowbecome like what does it mean
for me to craft space where allof the blackest foods I can do
(19:38):
this year is a little differentbecause, and oh yeah, Nikia,
I'll be in New York for at aspeaking at a conference for on
Juneteenth.
But as much as excited aboutbeing in New York to do that,
I'm actually like more excitedto come back home and the day
after do all of the things thatI would have done with my people
here on Juneteenth, with justplay spades, yeah, fry fish and
(20:01):
eat watermelon and red velvetcake and all of the like I just
I grew up celebrating andobserving Juneteenth.
However, I was not aware just ofhow what traditions rooted in
Galveston folks had.
And so, like in these last fewyears, learning that like they
(20:24):
prioritize red foods and reddrinks and like those kind of
things matter to me because Ialso think that like there's
something in Juneteenth aboutlegacy that is resonating with
me because I feel like we areraising unfortunately
generations that don't valuelegacy as much anymore.
(20:47):
And so, what does it look likefor us to say, like, no, like
this day matters for all of itscomplications, for all of its
contradictions, for all of theways white folk got get off
work?
Like, this day matters, andwe've got to figure out how to
reclaim it so that we can be thecommunity and be the joy that
(21:12):
has been the community and thejoy that has sustained us at
every iteration of Black life inAmerica.
SPEAKER_04 (21:18):
Yeah.
That's really good.
And it helps to readjust ourcompass as an organization that
was conceived on this day onJuneteenth.
And thank you both forcontextualizing the conversation
and the story and history ofJuneteenth and its importance
for our inception.
And I would like to shift toyour tenure on the board.
(21:39):
What attracted you to say yes tothis crazy idea of abolitionist
sanctuary?
And what do you remember aboutwhere we are, where we were as
an organization during yourtenure?
SPEAKER_01 (21:51):
Oh, that's a great question.
So, first of all, what attractedme is that you're my sister
friend.
Yeah, you can boss me to go withyou to the moon.
I'd be like, girl, what'shappening?
We leaving.
I don't what time are weleaving?
What time you my Capricornsister?
You could have said we aregetting on the ship and going to
the moon.
Girl, let's go.
SPEAKER_04 (22:09):
So for those of you who don't know, Dr.
You and I have the samebirthday.
We're January 18th babies.
SPEAKER_01 (22:16):
Yes, but but what but in addition to that, and I
don't even know if I well, Ithink you and I talked about
this.
You know, I was raised in SantaMonica from kindergarten on up
to high school into my first fewyears of college at Santa Monica
City College.
I that word abolition was not aword that they taught in the
Santa Monica school district.
I mean I these are there thereare words and there are things.
(22:38):
Juneteenth, I did not actuallylearn until I was out of high
school in my first years ofcollege, being exposed to
different things because I wasmaking different friends, new
friends.
And so for me, it was also anopportunity for me to learn and
to engage something that Ilearned much later in life was
so important to being a blackwoman and raising black sons and
(23:02):
a family in America.
And so it was so it was it wasthe opportunity to be a part of
something that I was unfamiliarwith for the first half of my
life and even into adulthood,there were, you know, just some
things I just didn't know aboutbecause I wasn't exposed to
them.
And these are not things that Iwas abolition, abolitionist
thought, all that none of thatwas anything that I was raised
(23:24):
with as it relates to likeacademic training or language.
And so I was very, just veryanxious to be a part of that
because I had no previousexposure or experience.
And I really wanted to be a partof that in addition to
supporting my sister.
And and over the years of doingcommunity work in Los Angeles,
(23:44):
I've learned that there's someabolitionists in me.
You know what I'm saying?
But I had to learn that Ididn't, that's not what I would
have called it because that'snot the language I was raised
with.
But but in connecting with thatpart of myself, and then as an
adult, learning more about myfamily's history and connecting
with that is what just drew meto to being a part.
SPEAKER_04 (24:06):
Yeah.
Thank you, sis.
I appreciate the love.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (24:09):
Yeah.
What Reverend O'Druma said, I'mgonna call you Gigi.
You asked me it's gonna be ayes.
And I think that I think that wedon't say that enough and let
that be a full stop.
That like when black women askblack women to to show up for
each other and it's a yes, likethat in and of itself is enough.
(24:32):
And so I didn't need anotherjustification or another reason.
One because I trust you and Ilove you and and believe in you.
So it was already that was it.
I will also say I learned a lotfrom you because I was very much
uh, oh, I'm an abolitionist, butsome of you on very much that,
(24:57):
like I was very much that it waslike, okay, you want me to be on
this, I'm gonna be on it becauseI love you, but Some they need
to be, they need to be there.
So like I knew that this isgonna be as much of a learning
opportunity for and growingopportunity for me, but then the
(25:18):
other part that I think youdon't really get enough credit
for, and I hope that changes, isyour advocacy for black
motherhood, and particularly formothers who are either justice
impacted or have the potentialto be that.
(25:40):
And I think that like the thatthat space of vulnerability
where too often, and I mean, Ithink I think we know this, like
all three of us know this, thattoo often, particularly in
womaness spaces, particularly inspaces where black women have
ascended to a certain level ofeducation, a certain level of
(26:04):
access, a certain level ofprivilege, a certain level of
wealth, they can forget thatone, they may have come from a
family of sisters who don't havethat, or two, that they're still
a generation of sisters whodon't, who don't have that
access, who don't have thateducation, and are vulnerable to
(26:26):
these systems.
And you have been somebody whoin every way possible has always
been like, no matter where I go,I'm not forgetting them.
And so I think that's a part ofthe Abalus Sanctuary that really
one was closest to my heart.
(26:48):
But then I also think, like Isaid, it's the part of your work
that people really don't amplifyenough.
I think that we have so many ofus have taken our marching
orders from you in that space,and so many of us follow you
there.
And so for me, like those firstyears of really watching you
(27:11):
prioritize those kinds ofsisters in a space where they're
not that they're notprioritized, and to see you say,
like, as they are, withouttrying to clean up anything,
they are holy and they deserveevery bit of advocacy, every bit
(27:32):
of intervention, and every bitof support from black women and
black community, like that.
I will remember those moments,and I'm really grateful to be
there for that.
SPEAKER_04 (27:44):
Absolutely.
Yep, you're messing me up.
Wow, she gotta receive on I I'mstuck.
I can end the interview now.
I don't even know where to gofrom this.
SPEAKER_00 (27:56):
Thank you.
I receive it, just receive it,see.
SPEAKER_05 (28:00):
Yeah, you got, I mean, I think it's just like
sometimes just like it's dope tobe able to sit back five years
and be like, oh, wow, I did thisthing, but I think it's also
important for you to hear, like,yeah, while you were doing this
thing, we were also watchingyou.
And I think that like I am morestruck now about the the ways
(28:23):
that some sometimes blackworking class black women, black
women who are who are the mostvulnerable get discarded.
And even with just like with mywork and creative projects and
the other advocacy things that Ido, I think that like I'm always
(28:44):
trying to figure out, all right,how do I hold, how do I hold
space for them as them?
And how do I, how do I not tella story that feels like it's a
caricature?
And I go back to you.
Like you have been a model ofthat for like, no, like these
are sisters who we can't leavethem, we can't, and they're not,
(29:06):
and they're not objects ofstudy.
You see what I'm saying?
Like, I think that like we camefrom a place and we come from
academic worlds where blackwomen can be objects of study
for black women.
And one of the things that youdid with abolitionist sanctuary
is say, like, no, like these arethey and we are them, right?
And like, like, what does itlook like for us to prioritize
(29:31):
their care?
What does it look like for us toprioritize their safety?
And I think like in these, asyou look back, like yeah, you
get you get to say, like, I didthat, and as you and you get to
say, like, you get to hear ussay you have been on the
forefront of championing womenthat unfortunately a discourse
(29:57):
that's devoted to black womenoften sidelines, and your work
has included them back in verymeaningful ways.
So, like, yeah, like you get todo that with that.
What you doing?
SPEAKER_04 (30:12):
I'm telling the producer to take us out.
SPEAKER_00 (30:14):
We you need a moment to shando shape.
You need a moment to shandoshape.
I promise you, I don't gotnothing.
Let throw all the questions out.
SPEAKER_05 (30:28):
So let me tell you, I don't even know why you came
with like I looked at that emailand I was like, why are you
coming with this?
Like, I don't even I was like,why did she do it?
SPEAKER_04 (30:39):
I'm about to mute Candace Mike because she is in
whatever oil she is on rightnow.
SPEAKER_01 (30:49):
It's real, and I think what's important, Dr.
Nikia, is you have to receivethat.
Yes, and it's hard.
And I know, I know it's hard foryou.
I know I can see it's like, whatdo I do?
Receive it.
See, that's part of the work,right?
Is that you have to receive andembrace what is being said
because not only is it true, notonly is it true, but this is the
(31:11):
work that you do beyond the theestablishment of app.
This is how you show up.
And I just you have to risk youhave to embody, you have to
receive it.
SPEAKER_04 (31:22):
I wish you could hear my words on the inside.
I'm over here like this is somebull.
We had hijacked.
Right, and they read you.
Thank you.
(31:42):
Thank you.
I receive that, and I appreciatethe ways in which you guys are
seeing me and recognizing thework of abolitionist sanctuary
and the ways in which you havebeen a part of it.
Motherhood is something that isspecial to all of us, and so
let's talk about our mamas,right?
Because that is really that'sthat's what drives the work that
(32:05):
we do.
Candace, you've been verytransparent about your mother.
Najuma, you recently postedsomething.
You said, I usually don't postmy mom, but there was a
breakthrough there.
Let's talk about, let's lift upthose narratives and why that is
important to the work that we'redoing.
SPEAKER_01 (32:21):
Yeah, I mean, my mother stands all of five three,
maybe, but she is a force to bereckoned with my whole life.
You know, when I had littleboyfriends and stuff in high
school, they were afraid ofBeverly Smith because she didn't
play, she didn't throw nopunches, and she still don't.
She is fierce, she isstraightforward, she don't spare
(32:43):
nothing, but she is loving, sheis kind, she believes in the
right thing.
My mother, you know, in heryounger years was part of the LA
chapter of the Black Panthers,and so I grew up with some of
that energy.
I wasn't in the space, ofcourse, I wasn't born yet, but
that energy came with my mother.
But that's also how mygrandmother was.
(33:04):
My grandmother and my mother arethe two most prominent female
figures in my life.
But my mother now is apracticing trouble witness, she
has been for a very long time.
So she ain't never been to mychurch, she ain't never been to
no church I've ever passed her,she ain't never heard me preach,
and that's okay.
That's fine.
We have a great love and respectfor each other's differences in
that space.
But as far as where the fight inme comes in, and you know, the
(33:30):
tenacity and the drive, that'sall Beverly Smith.
You know, the determination, theindependence sometimes, which
can be a fault, that all isBeverly Smith.
And so to watch her now at 80,almost 83, you know, she's just
you know, dancing with mydaughter, having overcome, you
know, she had a terrible caraccident that put her in a
wheelchair and pins and allthat, and she overcame that.
(33:53):
And so that's just indicative ofwho she's always been, just a
fighter.
And she's not a politicalperson, but in private
conversations, you know exactlywhere she stands, and she
continues to stand for blackfolks.
She just doesn't do politicsbecause, as you'll witness,
that's not what nevernecessarily her focus, but she
is absolutely all about herblack family, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (34:16):
Shout out to Beverly Smith.
SPEAKER_06 (34:18):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (34:26):
Wow.
And I was just like, and I andit was so funny because I said
after that, I said, well, then Iwant to go and do as much
healing work as possible.
I want to respect her ineverything that I do.
Mama, it's so funny though,because I realize and I've
(34:46):
always said that my work hingeson this belief that I have that
sometimes the most difficultrelationship that black women
navigate is the relationshipwith their mamas because they're
because they're trying tonegotiate what it means to be
the woman that they're becomingversus the daughter that either
(35:08):
they think their mother wants ortheir mama has been very clear
that they need to be.
And sometimes it's not alwayscongruent.
And like my mama and I, ourfiercest conversations were
around theology and politics andsex.
And she will always be like, alady doesn't talk about these
things in public.
And I'm like, girl, that is noteven raising.
(35:30):
It's so funny because I thinkoften black women, particularly
like free-thinking black women,want to raise these
free-thinking black girls, andthen when you become what they
raise, they be like, now wait aminute, like you're a little too
free.
And so, like, I think that thatwas my mom that she was just
like, girl, if I had to doagain, I would have gave this
(35:52):
freedom a bit of parameters, andbut I am who I am because of
her, and it's so funny becauseafter I had about I had a few
years because she passed in2015, and then my grandmother
passed in 2022, and so I hadthat stretch of time with just
my grandma, and I saw where shegot it from, like that that
(36:17):
fire, that fire was theirs andwas my grandmama's that my mama
figured out how to tamper alittle bit for public
consumption, and then I justcame and was like, let's just
pour gasoline on this joker,right?
And like that was mygrandmother, and I also to to
the point of like to the pointof even just like the the cute
(36:40):
the creation of abolitionistsanctuary and just like the way
that we are able to dreamdifferently than they were.
Like, I remember when my grandmawas like, I would have loved to
have been a teacher, but I had ababy early and I needed to focus
on family.
And she was like, Your you andyour mama got to do things that
(37:04):
I only dreamed I could do, andthen I didn't even know how to
dream this was even possible.
And and so I realized sometimeswhen we say things like we're
our ancestors' wildest dreams,that's not true because they
didn't even, they couldn't evenconceive of being like, and
that's some of our ancestors wholived in our lifetimes, right?
(37:27):
And it's I think that when wetalk about black mamas and we
talk about black motherhood,like what does it look like to
achieve beyond what they evencould conceptualize for
themselves, and that like theirceiling becomes what we
(37:49):
normalize for a new generationof girls and and daughters and
nieces, and like and I'll saythis in close, like what has
been on my heart, like hurtingit, is being here and seeing the
way that particularly reproducedreproductive rights have been
(38:10):
rolled back, and then like I wastelling my cousin, I said, it's
wild that that grandmama diedwith more bodily autonomy than
your six-year-old daughter has,right?
And like, what does that evenmean for the kind of fight and
the work that we have to do?
That same fight and spiritthat's in Miss Beverly, that's
(38:33):
in Helen, my grandma, that's inNakia's mama, that's in my mama,
Deborah, that fight we have tobring even more to bear.
That like it's cute to be like,yeah, like this is a generation,
like we keep seeing generationsbeyond ourselves and all that,
but what are they inheriting?
And and I think that's the partof like when I think about all
(38:56):
the fights that me and my mamahad, all the arguments, the ways
that I would drive her crazy,the ways that she did not know
how to apologize, but would senda PayPal to tell me I had one
account.
Like, like she, I am able to beme because of her.
(39:16):
I'm able to think about thosekinds of things because she made
me think about those things andshe made me read books when I
didn't want to read them.
And like, and I'm I'm gratefulin ways that didn't always know
to be grateful.
Yeah, yeah, I'm grateful.
SPEAKER_04 (39:36):
Yeah, that is, I think that aptly describes my
relationship with my we werefreaking frat, right?
Inseparable, always together,but boy, did we go at it.
And and this is also why there'ssomething sacred about Black
motherhood.
And motherhood isn't somethingthat's only assigned by
(39:57):
biological children, but theways in which we nurture and
care for communities, which iswhy with Abolition Sanctuary,
we're trying to fund adocumentary that is highlighting
the survival stories ofcommunity mothers, church
mothers, and carceral mothers.
But the community mothers isreally important, right?
Because it's recognizing thatnot all mothers have to have
biological children, but thereare mothers who are nurturing
(40:20):
and are acting as surrogates andso forth.
But we fight for black mothersbecause black mothers dream,
right?
And we dream beyond ourcircumstance, beyond
intergenerational barriers.
We dream, but when there's acarceral system, right, that is
seeking to rob us of thosedreams just because we are
(40:41):
trying to actualize them bymaking a way out of no way,
that's a crisis, right?
It's a critical problem for ourcommunities.
Talk to us about your views onthe criminalization of Black
motherhood and our survivalstrategies and how that is
critical for our communities,for our democracy, and even
(41:02):
salvation, right?
The ways in which when blackmothers dream, it saves lives,
right?
SPEAKER_01 (41:07):
Yeah.
Oh, so I'm gonna start this way.
I did a lot of things my mothernever did.
I made a lot of mistakes mymother never made.
And a couple of those mistakesput me in jail for a short
period of time.
And what I appreciate in themistakes that I made, my mother
didn't judge me.
She stood right by me becauseshe understood I was doing the
(41:28):
best that I could, right?
And I think what we don't havethe what I try to do when I talk
with young mothers now and workwith, I have a couple of mentees
who are mothers, is to show upfor them in that non-judgmental
way.
Like hear their stories, heartheir narrative, be like, all
right, girl, let's just figureit out.
(41:49):
Because that's how my mamashowed up for me.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, I remember when I calledher, I was like, Mommy, you
gotta go pick up Daniel becauseI'm in jail.
And she's like, Okay, where's heat?
And then it was like, we'll talkabout why you're in jail later.
And so I try to tell I try toshow up that way for young
women, especially mothers now.
(42:10):
I have a commitment to a few,like I said, a few mentees who
are mothers that anything theyneed, they can call me for, they
can, and we're gonna figure itout because the because because
we are navigating a differentset of rules as black mothers.
I am very clear about that.
And you know, parenting isdifferent for me now with Dory
and Missouri, they're muchyounger.
(42:31):
When I had Daniel, I was in myearly 20s, and I wasn't only
that was it not information Idid not have, I was also healing
from trauma of sexual assaultand all that abuse and all that.
But like the ways in which thesystem was set up, I was like,
oh, it's a difference.
(42:51):
Like, and experiencing thatfirsthand, oh, there's a
difference.
And so I don't even know if I'manswering the question, but but
I felt it, I saw it, Iexperienced it, and I'm grateful
that I have my mother who didn'tjudge me, who was there for me.
And there were a lot of thingsshe couldn't solve for me
because we had this greatdifference in how we saw life
(43:12):
and the world, you me as aChristian, her as a Jehovah's
Witness.
However, she was always therefor me, and I tried to do that
for young women at the same timehelping them understand how to
navigate these systems becausethey are not, it's they're not
created equal.
It doesn't, and it doesn'tmatter.
Money almost money doesn'tmatter, fame doesn't matter,
(43:33):
celebrity doesn't matter.
The system is it is it is set upto demonize, it is set up to
tear down, it is set up set upto harm.
And so I just try to do that inthe work that I do, but also
with my mentees in this one onone space.
I try to be there.
And I hope I answered thequestion, but that's just what
(43:53):
I'm saying.
SPEAKER_04 (43:54):
That's really good.
You you answered it.
That was really good.
Thank you.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (44:00):
Really interesting because right now I'm working on
a creative project that reallylooks at how the child support
system leaves black mothers veryincreasingly vulnerable.
SPEAKER_03 (44:14):
Wow.
SPEAKER_05 (44:15):
And how they have to, this group of women make a
very drastic decision to fortheir children.
And when I was talking to one ofthe producers, and I said, I
don't want, I said the theantagonist here isn't even the
fathers, but the antagonist hereis the system.
(44:36):
Like it needs to be very clearthat that the system is not
designed to care for blackmothers because the system hates
that black, that that blackbirthing people exist to create
to create a nation of peoplethat that still endure to create
(45:02):
that this that these systemsdespise that a black mama can
choose to love, right?
Like even the worst of mothers,there is something about their
children that will always findthem endearing, that will always
(45:24):
have that one memory of a goodtime that they hold on to, and
that one memory seeds a hopethat systems have long wanted to
root out and to destroy.
(46:11):
And what does that mean to beput into ethic and into
practice?
Right?
It means that I'm gonna hear youand I'm gonna tell you first
thing I say is I love you.
You did what you had to do withthe set of choices and options
that you had.
Now it is very clear that thischoice was not the most optimal,
right?
So let's figure out how we'regonna move and how we're gonna
(46:34):
adjust and what we are going todo beyond this moment.
But I think that's the kind oflove, that's the kind of care I
remember telling one of mycousins there will never be a
point in your life where you donot have me as support.
Absolutely.
There will never be a time inyour life where you feel like
the older women in your familydon't have your back because you
(46:55):
are right and you are a youngmom.
No that not only can you call mein the midst of anything, your
kids can call me in the midst ofanything, and also to be the
cousin that when somebody sayssomething, I'm gonna defend it
and be like, Well, I mean, wewasn't around when you was doing
what you was doing, so we don'tknow, right?
(47:15):
You know, and it's and it's likekind of like even doing that in
church to be like who like whoyou talking to?
It's like you're talking to herlike that, and I think that like
that kind of like putting whenyou put your body on the line in
that way, um, because it's notjust these systems that make
(47:36):
black mamas feel, particularlyblack single mothers, working
class and poor black singlemothers, it's not just these
systems that make them feel thatmake them question their worth
and their value.
They feeling that stuff in theirown families and in their own
community and their churches andin their churches, and like when
(47:56):
you stand up and be like, wewhat we not gonna do is that,
and if you're gonna do it infront of me, like what we are
signaling to them is that youmatter, you have value, and I
refuse to let anybody tell youotherwise.
But yeah, like that's the kindof fierce advocacy that we gotta
(48:19):
have.
Yeah.
Thank you both.
SPEAKER_04 (48:21):
And you are poignantly capturing the mission
of Avalish the Sanctuary, right?
And the ethics that Katie GenevaCanon lays out for us, right?
What society constitutes as avice for black women, it has
been virtue.
And so what we're doing atAvalista Sanctuary is though
society is criminalizing thesurvival strategies of black
mothers and constructing it asdeviant.
(48:44):
What we see is their survivalstrategies as a source of moral
integrity and even salvationbecause they respond
compassionately when we callfrom prison, right?
And ask no questions, becausethey are not condemning, right?
And so there are some virtuesthat are coming out of black
mothers that are instructive forupending or dismantling the
(49:04):
systems that are stacked upagainst us and designed to make
our survival nearly impossiblein the first place, right?
SPEAKER_01 (49:14):
If I may, can I share a quick story?
I think which speaks to whatyou're talking about.
When I was pastoring at St.
James Amy Church, St.
James at the time was locatedright off of Figueroa.
For those that are not familiarwith Figueroa, Figueroa is the
stroll in South LA.
And, you know, we we had aministry that worked with the
young ladies that would oftenpass by the church because we
were only one block off ofFigueroa.
(49:36):
One of our members, her sisterwas often, or not her sister,
but her cousin was often onFigueroa.
And I remember one Sunday shecame to church, and after
church, they brought her in myoffice and she was in tears and
crying, and you know, I wastrying to understand what was
going on.
And her cousin was telling methat, you know, she got us in
trouble and you know, shestruggles with alcoholism.
(49:57):
And I just remember the younggirl saying to me, she said,
they're trying to put me injail.
I don't need jail, I need help.
And I think that is emotionalabout that.
That and that girl, and so Isaid, you know what, sis, we're
gonna get you some help.
And we did everything we could,and we she did not end up going
to jail.
We got her into a program, but Ithink that is what you're
(50:18):
saying.
Like, our work is to get thesemamas help.
They don't need to beincarcerated.
That girl didn't need noincarceration, she needed help,
she need help with heraddiction, need help with
whatever happened to her thatgot her on the street, that got
her addicted, she need help withher children, and I think that
is a part of this work, is likemaking sure we are the help, you
(50:39):
know, the helpers that God hassent to help these mamas out.
Young, the young ones, yes, theolder ones, even too.
But that just that to me hasalways been the story that
reminds me of where my focus is.
I don't need to go to jail.
She said, I don't need you, Ineed help.
And I think that's what drivesme also.
SPEAKER_04 (50:58):
But I just wanted to share that story because I think
that's a part of doing a reallygreat story, and that is what
makes word of encouragementchurch and abolitionist
sanctuary, because you are doingthe work of shifting away from
punishment and condemnationtowards the positive
abolitionist virtues ofcompassion, care, creativity,
(51:19):
courage, and community in waysthat centers the wellness and
wholeness of black mothers.
My final question before we goto this rapid round is if you
could share with someone in yournetwork or someone who you don't
know at all, why you think theyshould support abolitionist
sanctuary's mission, what wouldyou say to help us to become a
(51:40):
fully funded and sustainableorganization for the next five
years and beyond?
SPEAKER_01 (51:45):
What I would say number one is the training that
comes with AbolitionistSanctuary is a training that is
not readily available, but itneeds to be widespread.
And so that would be one.
But number two, I believe thatabolitionist Sanctuary will help
all of us not only do the work,but also to heal, heal the ways
(52:09):
in which even black folks havebought into a carceral system
and process for black mothersand black families, black bodies
in general, right?
Help to pull us out of that.
And so, in supporting that work,we're creating sanctuaries and
space for that conversation.
So we may not see the full shiftin our lifetime or even the next
(52:34):
few years, but in time, the workwill shift the tide.
And I do believe it can shiftthe tide nationwide.
And so those are my two mainreasons why individuals should
support abolitionist sanctuary.
SPEAKER_04 (52:47):
Thank you, Candace.
SPEAKER_05 (52:49):
Yeah, I think the for me, the main reason that
someone should supportabolitionist sanctuary and it
needs to become a fully fundedspace, a fully funded agency, is
because we need each other nowmore than we have ever needed
each other before.
And what abolitionist sanctuaryhas been able to do is to not
(53:13):
only challenge the way that wethink about systems, but to
lovingly push us to question howin our own ways we may embody
and justify those systems thatcreate harm for people that we
love and for people that we dothat we live for and we do this
(53:37):
work for.
It is a unique organization thatis doing a work that not only
isn't found in a lot of spaces,but it's doing a work that
really is relevant not only tothe moment, but it is a honor to
the generations before, and it'sa gift to the ones that's coming
(54:01):
beyond us and coming ahead ofus.
And so I'm excited about one,its future, but I'm really
excited about what it can do andwill do as more people continue
to partner and to we're in amoment where financially so it
into dreams is what's neededmore than we need prayer,
(54:25):
absolutely.
But as my grandmama, who was thepresident of her pastors aid for
30 years, would say sometimes Ineed you to pray with that
pocketbook.
Oh, that's right.
We need the abolitionistsanctuary to we need those kinds
of prayers because the work, thetraining, the advocacy, as these
(54:46):
systems continue to intensify,then we need more sanctuaries
and more spaces that have beenequipped and adequately trained
to meet what to meet with forcewhat these systems are doing
forcefully to our kin.
(55:07):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_04 (55:07):
I appreciate that.
And listen, while you aresupporting abolitionist
sanctuary, make sure you lookand support Zion Hill Media
Group, which is uh founded byCandace Benbo and Wake Up and
Win.
That is the initiative ofReverend Dr.
Najuma.
And I'm gonna take us out withthis rapid round.
(55:28):
I did not give this to you inadvance.
We did.
So when I say these words, Iwant you to just give me one
word of what comes to mind.
This time, Candace, you gofirst.
Dr.
Najuma, you go second.
Okay, Nicki Minaj.
SPEAKER_05 (55:43):
Crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (55:47):
Am I giving my word too?
Yes, Jill.
Chris Brown.
Why?
SPEAKER_04 (55:56):
Expensive tickets.
New York Knicks, champions.
I know that's right.
The same.
Juneteenth.
SPEAKER_05 (56:08):
Freedom.
Watermelon.
SPEAKER_04 (56:11):
Red Listen.
SPEAKER_01 (56:13):
Everything.
I learned it from Candace Bimbo.
Wake up and win.
Joy.
SPEAKER_05 (56:26):
We still winning.
Winning.
Black mothers.
Salvation.
Phenomenal.
Love.
Essential.
More.
The church.
SPEAKER_04 (56:51):
Favorite meal to cook.
SPEAKER_05 (56:56):
Pig feet, pig feet, potato salad, and green beans.
SPEAKER_04 (56:59):
I know you lying.
That's not what you cooked whenI was down there, but all right.
Go ahead.
SPEAKER_00 (57:09):
I did because you went and ate it, but it's my
favorite thing to cook.
SPEAKER_01 (57:15):
My daughter loves a grilled steak.
So grilled steak.
SPEAKER_04 (57:18):
Favorite church song?
SPEAKER_01 (57:21):
Great is that faithfulness.
It's hasten to the throne.
That's not what I love the Lord.
I love the Lord.
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (57:28):
Favorite color?
SPEAKER_05 (57:30):
Pink.
SPEAKER_04 (57:36):
I ain't gonna say, I ain't gonna say that.
I believe that between that.
Favorite thing to do, readsnowboarding.
Biggest pet peeve.
SPEAKER_05 (57:47):
When people go down the wrong aisle driving in the
Walmart parking lot, the arrowis going up from the I hate when
people do that around the RoseBowl.
SPEAKER_04 (57:56):
You be trying to walk around the rose bowl.
People always walking in thewrong direction.
I hate that.
Why do we have arrows?
Why do we have arrows?
Basically, I was gonna wear at-shirt that says if you're
reading this sign, you'rewalking in the wrong direction.
SPEAKER_00 (58:09):
You should read that.
That's a good sign.
That's a good sign.
You should do that.
SPEAKER_03 (58:12):
You should.
I want that.
SPEAKER_01 (58:14):
Yeah, pet.
I'm drop.
What's my pet?
I think people don't get it likeslow.
SPEAKER_04 (58:21):
Yeah, yeah.
Greatest hope.
SPEAKER_05 (58:28):
There's some of this stuff I'll see in my lifetime
that I get to meet mygreat-grandchildren.
SPEAKER_01 (58:35):
I have grandchildren, but I want to
meet at least one of mygreat-grandchildren.
I live to see one of them.
SPEAKER_04 (58:40):
Yeah, I like that.
Turn up or Netflix and chill.
It depends.
SPEAKER_01 (58:47):
It depends.
It depends.
It really does depend.
Even though I like a good turnup.
I think turn up.
I think turn up.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (58:55):
I think I I'm always I'm always choose a turn up
because I can Netflix and chillin a heartbeat.
SPEAKER_00 (59:02):
I do.
I am.
I will pick a turn up.
Yeah.
Y'all ready for this one?
What was it?
What was it?
Did she say PIP?
Yeah.
She left the screen.
SPEAKER_04 (59:21):
No.
The next one is abolitionistsanctuary.
Abolitionist sanctuary.
It's our last one.
The men's pride.
SPEAKER_05 (59:30):
Excellence.
SPEAKER_04 (59:32):
Thank you for joining this conversation.
Abolitionist Sanctuary podcast.
As we close, please download andshare on all platforms.
Again, I am your host, ReverendDr.
Nakia Smith Robert, the founderand executive director of
Abolitionist Sanctuary.
You can follow us on YouTube,Instagram, Facebook, and
(59:55):
download our social mobile app.
Also enroll in our courses atabolitionacademy.com and become
certified.
Don't forget to become a memberand subscribe to our mailing
list at abolitionistsctuary.org.
And as we conclude this episode,remember that abolition is not
only a practice, but it is a wayof life.
And for me, abolitionist byreligion.
(01:00:17):
Let's lead a faith basedabolitionist movement together.
Dr.
Najuma and Candace, thank you somuch for being on the show.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00:23):
We appreciate you.
Love you, sis.
Thank you, sis.
Welcome to the Abolitionist Sanctuary Podcast,
where we talk faith, abolition,and black motherhood.
I am your host, Reverend Dr.
Nikia Smith Robert, the founderand executive director of
Abolitionist Sanctuary.
We are a national coalitionleading a faith-based
(00:26):
abolitionist movement.
Thank you to our audio andvisual audiences for joining us
on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook,and all streaming platforms.
Let's build abolitionistsanctuaries together with this
critical and candid conversationfor today's episode.
(00:52):
Welcome to the AbolitionistSanctuary Podcast.
I am your host, Reverend Dr.
Nakia Smith Robert.
I am excited to be here for thefinal episode of season three
and also to celebrate not justJuneteenth, but the fifth
anniversary of AbolitionistSanctuary.
I am joined today with ourguests, the Reverend Dr.
(01:13):
Najuma Smith Pollard, as well asCandace Benbo.
I would like to give anintroduction starting with
Reverend Dr.
Najuma Smith Pollard, who is anassistant director of community
and public engagement with theUSC Center for Religion and
Civic Culture.
Dr.
Najuma combines her experienceas a pastor and expertise as a
(01:34):
community leader to help faithleaders become full partners in
the work of social change.
Dr.
Najuma leads programming for theCecil Murray Center for
Community Engagement, which isfocused at and housed at the
Center for Religion and CivicCulture.
Dr.
Najuma is a pastor, motivationalspeaker, author, life coach,
radio personality, and communityactivist.
(01:56):
In 2014, she launched the Wordof Encouragement Community
Church in Los Angeles.
And pursuing her passion toserve others beyond the walls of
the church, Dr.
Najuma also founded the companyLiving on Assignment, which is a
personal development coachingand consulting firm that helps
(02:17):
people live rich and meaningfullives.
Dr.
Najuma holds a BS in managementfrom Pepperdine University, a
Bachelor of Theology degree fromthe Southern California School
of Ministry, an MBA fromWoodbury University, and a
doctorate in ministry fromUnited Theological Seminary.
She is an alumna of the Passingthe Mantle Civic Engagement and
(02:40):
Community Development Instituteat USC, the precursor to the USC
Cecil Murray Center's FaithLeadership Institute.
I also would like to introduceour guest, Candace Marie
Benbone, who is a multi-genretheologian who situates her work
at the intersections of beauty,faith, feminism, and culture,
(03:02):
giving voice to Black women'sshared experiences of healing
and journeying toward wellnessand wholeness.
Reimagining how faith can be atool of liberation and
transformation for women andgirls, she challenges Black
women to think critically abouthow they see God, themselves,
and the world.
Candace has written for variousoutlets, including Essence
(03:25):
Magazine, Glamour Magazine, TheRoot, The Grio, Vice,
Shondeland, Madame Noir, and TheMe Too movement.
Her first book, Shout Out RedLip Theology for church girls
who consider tithing into thebeauty supply store when Sunday
morning isn't enough, wasreleased on January 2022 and was
(03:48):
selected as an Amazon editor'spick.
Candace is also the founder ofZion Hill Media Group, a media
boutique that produces messagesof hope and healing across
various platforms.
A member of Alpha Kappa AlphaSorority Incorporated.
Candace holds degrees fromTennessee State University,
(04:10):
North Carolina CentralUniversity, and Duke Divinity
School.
Join me in welcoming our gueststoday.
SPEAKER_03 (04:19):
Hey y'all.
SPEAKER_04 (04:30):
Before we begin, tell us your pronouns, give us a
visual of how you are showing upin this space and who are your
people.
SPEAKER_01 (04:39):
All right.
Well, I guess I've been taggedto start us off.
So Reverend Juma Smith, Pollard,she, her are my pronouns.
I'm showing up today in thisdenim blue jacket, blue jean
jacket with little with a littlebit of pink in it.
I have my little gold hoops on,which I love, and in my natural
little, my little afro today.
(05:01):
And my people are ChoctawIndian.
My people are Cuban.
My people are from Louisiana andMississippi.
My people got a sprinkle ofHaitian and a sprinkle of
European French.
And so those are my people, andwe a little bit everything.
SPEAKER_05 (05:18):
I know that's right.
Yeah.
Hi everybody, it's Candace.
And my pronouns are she, her.
I am showing up today.
I have on an HBCU then and nowt-shirt, which prominently has
the Howard University graduationpicture of my Sorora and Vice
(05:42):
President Kamala Harris.
And I got on some diamond studyrings.
Who are my people?
My people come from, they'refrom South Carolina, Red Clay,
Carolina people.
Love being everything aboutbeing black.
And I speak the name of HelenBimbo.
(06:03):
I speak the name of Tommy LeeBimbo.
I speak the name of Bimbo whoground me, the ancestors that
ground me in this work, theBimbo's, the Jacksons, those are
my people.
And I'm glad that they are inthis space with all of our
people right now.
SPEAKER_04 (06:19):
Ashay, Ashay.
My pronouns are she, her, andI'm showing up in an
abolitionist sanctuary t-shirt.
Run to the swag show store andget you one, as well as a black
blazer with gold accentedbuttons, a boho, blonde braids,
and some fancy MVP red lip forour guests and her book, Red Lip
(06:44):
Theology.
And excited to be here.
My people are nine siblings thathailed from Williamston, North
Carolina to New York City.
And a single black mother at theage of 15 who gave birth to my
brother, and 10 years later tome, Carol Mercedes Smith.
All that I do, I do it for her.
(07:04):
So let's jump in.
I am excited.
This yeah, this episode is gonnahit a little different because
y'all, my homies.
Listen, listen, let's have agood time.
SPEAKER_02 (07:23):
We're gonna have a good time.
SPEAKER_04 (07:24):
Let's have a good time.
So it's been a minute.
You guys, I invited you on thisshow because you are our
inaugural board members.
We had many, but I wanted tospend time to talk to you,
particularly as thisorganization represents black
women and black mothers.
I wanted to have my girls in theroom to talk about your
(07:46):
experience with Abolish theSanctuary.
But it's been a minute, right?
It's been a while.
I think you guys served in 2022.
And so a lot has happened sincethen.
So if you will, just catch meup.
What's been going on in yourworld?
What are you prioritizing thesedays?
What are what is the work thatyou're doing that your soul must
(08:07):
have?
SPEAKER_01 (08:08):
Yeah, so life is looking good.
I right now, you know, I have a16-year-old who's learning how
to drive.
He'll be 17 in August, an11-year-old who has decided
she's going to be anastrophysicist at 11 who talks a
lot about stuff I have no idea.
Like she's always asked me aboutquestions related to the black
(08:30):
hole, and I'm clueless.
So that's what I'd be like,girl, I don't know.
I mommy don't know.
So I am actively trying to justyou know steer them in the
direction that's showing up forthem.
My son has discovered that he'sreally good at track, so I'm
focusing on like developing atrack star and like this
scientist, and neither of whicham I good at, right?
(08:50):
Uh and I have no clue about.
So that's what's still that'swhat my life is looking like day
to day.
And I also have my nephew who'swith me now, he's 22, helping
him get direction and get solidon what he wants to do, be have
and possess.
And the thing that I'm workingon prioritizing, I have a lot of
books in me that I've been I do,I've self-published a lot of my
books in the past, and so I'vecommitted to every month
(09:13):
finishing one of my books, likejust getting it done.
And because I have severalprojects that just need to get
done.
So that's actually my priority,and uh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (09:24):
That's amazing, right?
Right on, sis.
Right on.
SPEAKER_05 (09:27):
Yeah, what's going on for me?
So I have trans, I don't evenwant to call it a transition.
Like it's screenwriting has beensomething that's super that's
always been important to me.
Storytelling has been somethingthat I love, yeah, and
incredibly grateful for theopportunity to write a narrative
(09:49):
film for the National Museum ofAfrican American History and
Culture.
It's their first narrative filmthat they've done, and so it's
called Hush Harbor.
We go into production in July,and it's an amazing cast, and
some a cast of heavy hitters andproducers, and it's just been an
amazing opportunity.
(10:10):
And so really excited to be ableto move in a space that's
allowing me to bring woman oftheology to Arts and
Entertainment, and so there'ssome other things that are in
the pipeline that hopefullyseason four, I'll be able to
come back and share us morebroadly, more fully.
(10:31):
I am prioritizing girl, me, likethe world on fire.
And I have like, so I moved backto the south, so I live in
Georgia.
Being back in the south hasgrounded me in a way that like
I'm just super, super, I'm muchmore at peace.
And when like the world iscrazy, I go into my backyard,
(10:55):
and so like excited because I'mputting up my hammock for the
summer.
We finish here, stringing mylight, my new lights for the
back, cleaning off my grill andmy griddle so I can be out there
cooking.
I'm just really justprioritizing that like
everything else around us canand will be chaotic, but what
(11:17):
really matters is how we settlethe peace within ourselves,
yeah.
Because and that joy, like I Iunderstand so much more now why
the old Saints used to say,There's joy I had the world and
give you a world, and sosettling in that is my priority,
and nobody and nothing is gonnatake that from me.
SPEAKER_04 (11:38):
Wow, this is beautiful because having
journeyed with each other for solong, we were able to see each
other seed these dreams.
Yes, I'm getting chills, likejust to see it manifest and to
hear you guys speak it.
I am extremely full, extremelyfull.
So that that thank you, thankyou for sharing that.
(11:58):
And there's just there's justpower and manifestation, but not
in isolation and sisterhood.
Right, absolutely, that'spowerful, and it is because of
that sisterhood, because of thatcommunity that I had the courage
to dream abolitionist sanctuary.
And when you guys didn't knowwhat the heck I was thinking
(12:19):
about, what it was, what we weredoing, you guys signed up and
rolled with me and said yes tobecoming a founding board
member.
And that yes still paysdividends today.
I have funders, I haveinvestors, I have people who are
able to validate the work thatwe do because they look on our
(12:40):
website and they see who was onour founding board.
And I hear often you aresurrounded by some good people.
And because you believed in usand was able to stamp your
credibility on thisorganization, we continue to
grow today.
So thank you.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (12:55):
Thank you.
That was a since we're proud ofyou for pushing.
SPEAKER_05 (13:03):
You talk about the dream, like sitting five years
into this and remembering whenyou were talking about it, I
think that that too often assisters.
I was telling a friend the otherday, like, we know how to go get
the degrees, like we know how todo all of those things.
But sometimes when you have tobet on yourself beyond that,
(13:24):
when there's no like curriculumthat you gotta follow, no
paradigm that you need tofollow, and you know that you
are getting this piece of paperat the end of it.
Like, like sometimes betting onyourself and launching into the
deep is where a lot of usstruggle.
And it's just been exciting towatch you have done that.
(13:47):
And we're five years into whatis a lifetime of work, and what
you've done in five years is notonly something that you should
be proud of, but you've alsohelped to seed for other sisters
what it looks like to not justhave a vision board, but to like
live into that vision.
(14:08):
So we're just proud of you,girl.
SPEAKER_04 (14:11):
You are in your oil today.
Go ahead, go ahead and make mefeel like I'm gonna bust out of
tongues one more time.
You can and you should.
Yo, you can in your prayercloset.
You know what?
I'm I didn't start going back tochurch.
I didn't really give us awarning.
(14:32):
I like to say I'm redeemed andratchet.
I needed to know that you werecoming in this space on the
redeemed side.
SPEAKER_00 (14:39):
We can be ratchet too.
SPEAKER_05 (14:43):
What we got on here, like I literally enjoyed my
little ratchet moment of mylittle song vinegar, pork
rhymes, and I was listening toLotto, so like we can get in
that side too.
SPEAKER_04 (14:58):
No, but it's crazy because abolitionist sanctuary,
yes, was birthed from adissertation, yes, from personal
experience, but it was also agroup of women one January.
We jumped on a call and we hadvision boards, we created vision
boards, and on that vision boardhad abolitionist sanctuary.
And you are absolutely rightthat it's it is so easy to study
this stuff, right?
(15:19):
To keep pushing it back and say,I gotta study more, I gotta get
this credential, this degree,and put it on our vision board.
But it takes courage, it takescalculated risks to take that
deep launch, right?
So that launch into the deep tomanifest and actually execute.
So I appreciate that.
I recognize that this is alsoJuneteenth, and that is the if
(15:41):
you look on our incorporationpapers, abolitionist sanctuary
started on June 19, 2021.
And I was very intentional aboutthat because abolition is the
story of liberation, andcertainly our people were free
prior to coming across thattransatlantic.
And but what I think about thoseremnant of slaves who were left
(16:02):
over in Galvinston, Texas, until1865, though the Emancipation
Proclamation was announced in1863.
I think about the remnant of usthat remain today that are still
awaiting the fullness of ourfreedom.
An abolition sanctuary wants tolive into that, right?
How can we be conductors on thisnew railroad, right?
(16:24):
This underground railroad ofsetting our people free.
Tell me, what does Juneteenthmean for you guys?
SPEAKER_01 (16:31):
I look so much.
And again, thank you for justcreating this space.
I feel really honored to be inthis conversation with the two
of you today.
The importance of Juneteenth, Ithink it's the word that, as I
was looking at the questions,the word that kept coming to me
was recalling.
Like I feel that Juneteenth hasus to recall, think, recall our
(16:54):
not just the memory of ourancestors and the trauma and the
pain and the atrocities, butit's recalling to who we are,
right?
It's easy, you know, as we allkind of shared in the beginning,
like the things that we'reprioritizing and working on.
And it's easy to get reallyfocused on that and lost
sometimes, even in that.
You're trying to achieve, you'retrying to work, you're trying to
(17:15):
build, you're trying to create.
And it's easy to get lost in thesauce of that, especially in the
systems that we have tonavigate.
And then there's this Juneteenthmoment that brings you back, you
know, to who you are.
And I'm gonna use our dearfriend Dr.
Taman, like that homecoming.
It brings you back to yourself,it brings you back to the power
within, it brings you back tojust an authentic self.
(17:38):
That's what I appreciate aboutJuneteenth is the recalling, is
the coming back.
The other day I was, for thosethat are not in Los Angeles, an
area called Lamert Park whereit's a combination of
Christianity, Muslim, and thenthere's a great amount of
African spiritual practice thathappens in Lamour Park.
And so when you go there, youyou like you kind of come back
(18:00):
to yourself.
Like all this corporate stuffthat's around, especially if you
live in LA, this Hollywoodcorporate stuff, like that takes
a backseat.
And you get to come back.
So for me, Juneteenth is arecalling, it's a coming back to
our ourself, coming back to notjust the atrocity, but the power
of our ancestors and who theyreally were and are in us today.
(18:24):
So that's what it means to me.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (18:28):
Yeah, I've a lot of the same, and honestly, I've had
to if and I can say this andshare this with y'all, like I've
been also wrestling the last fewyears with what Juneteenth needs
to mean, given thecommodification of it.
The fact that white people getto just be off work, just like
(18:48):
that.
That just is a rebound.
So like this idea, right, thatlike it is now this like federal
holiday.
Yeah, I think Trump still let itbe a federal holiday.
I don't know, but like this ideathat it's now like nationally
recognized reminds me of justthe what it means to live in to
(19:12):
be black in America, which isthis complication, right?
Of like there's really no placethat belongs to us, with the
exception of places that wecarve out ourselves, right?
And so like Juneteenth has nowbecome like what does it mean
for me to craft space where allof the blackest foods I can do
(19:38):
this year is a little differentbecause, and oh yeah, Nikia,
I'll be in New York for at aspeaking at a conference for on
Juneteenth.
But as much as excited aboutbeing in New York to do that,
I'm actually like more excitedto come back home and the day
after do all of the things thatI would have done with my people
here on Juneteenth, with justplay spades, yeah, fry fish and
(20:01):
eat watermelon and red velvetcake and all of the like I just
I grew up celebrating andobserving Juneteenth.
However, I was not aware just ofhow what traditions rooted in
Galveston folks had.
And so, like in these last fewyears, learning that like they
(20:24):
prioritize red foods and reddrinks and like those kind of
things matter to me because Ialso think that like there's
something in Juneteenth aboutlegacy that is resonating with
me because I feel like we areraising unfortunately
generations that don't valuelegacy as much anymore.
(20:47):
And so, what does it look likefor us to say, like, no, like
this day matters for all of itscomplications, for all of its
contradictions, for all of theways white folk got get off
work?
Like, this day matters, andwe've got to figure out how to
reclaim it so that we can be thecommunity and be the joy that
(21:12):
has been the community and thejoy that has sustained us at
every iteration of Black life inAmerica.
SPEAKER_04 (21:18):
Yeah.
That's really good.
And it helps to readjust ourcompass as an organization that
was conceived on this day onJuneteenth.
And thank you both forcontextualizing the conversation
and the story and history ofJuneteenth and its importance
for our inception.
And I would like to shift toyour tenure on the board.
(21:39):
What attracted you to say yes tothis crazy idea of abolitionist
sanctuary?
And what do you remember aboutwhere we are, where we were as
an organization during yourtenure?
SPEAKER_01 (21:51):
Oh, that's a great question.
So, first of all, what attractedme is that you're my sister
friend.
Yeah, you can boss me to go withyou to the moon.
I'd be like, girl, what'shappening?
We leaving.
I don't what time are weleaving?
What time you my Capricornsister?
You could have said we aregetting on the ship and going to
the moon.
Girl, let's go.
SPEAKER_04 (22:09):
So for those of you who don't know, Dr.
You and I have the samebirthday.
We're January 18th babies.
SPEAKER_01 (22:16):
Yes, but but what but in addition to that, and I
don't even know if I well, Ithink you and I talked about
this.
You know, I was raised in SantaMonica from kindergarten on up
to high school into my first fewyears of college at Santa Monica
City College.
I that word abolition was not aword that they taught in the
Santa Monica school district.
I mean I these are there thereare words and there are things.
(22:38):
Juneteenth, I did not actuallylearn until I was out of high
school in my first years ofcollege, being exposed to
different things because I wasmaking different friends, new
friends.
And so for me, it was also anopportunity for me to learn and
to engage something that Ilearned much later in life was
so important to being a blackwoman and raising black sons and
(23:02):
a family in America.
And so it was so it was it wasthe opportunity to be a part of
something that I was unfamiliarwith for the first half of my
life and even into adulthood,there were, you know, just some
things I just didn't know aboutbecause I wasn't exposed to
them.
And these are not things that Iwas abolition, abolitionist
thought, all that none of thatwas anything that I was raised
(23:24):
with as it relates to likeacademic training or language.
And so I was very, just veryanxious to be a part of that
because I had no previousexposure or experience.
And I really wanted to be a partof that in addition to
supporting my sister.
And and over the years of doingcommunity work in Los Angeles,
(23:44):
I've learned that there's someabolitionists in me.
You know what I'm saying?
But I had to learn that Ididn't, that's not what I would
have called it because that'snot the language I was raised
with.
But but in connecting with thatpart of myself, and then as an
adult, learning more about myfamily's history and connecting
with that is what just drew meto to being a part.
SPEAKER_04 (24:06):
Yeah.
Thank you, sis.
I appreciate the love.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (24:09):
Yeah.
What Reverend O'Druma said, I'mgonna call you Gigi.
You asked me it's gonna be ayes.
And I think that I think that wedon't say that enough and let
that be a full stop.
That like when black women askblack women to to show up for
each other and it's a yes, likethat in and of itself is enough.
(24:32):
And so I didn't need anotherjustification or another reason.
One because I trust you and Ilove you and and believe in you.
So it was already that was it.
I will also say I learned a lotfrom you because I was very much
uh, oh, I'm an abolitionist, butsome of you on very much that,
(24:57):
like I was very much that it waslike, okay, you want me to be on
this, I'm gonna be on it becauseI love you, but Some they need
to be, they need to be there.
So like I knew that this isgonna be as much of a learning
opportunity for and growingopportunity for me, but then the
(25:18):
other part that I think youdon't really get enough credit
for, and I hope that changes, isyour advocacy for black
motherhood, and particularly formothers who are either justice
impacted or have the potentialto be that.
(25:40):
And I think that like the thatthat space of vulnerability
where too often, and I mean, Ithink I think we know this, like
all three of us know this, thattoo often, particularly in
womaness spaces, particularly inspaces where black women have
ascended to a certain level ofeducation, a certain level of
(26:04):
access, a certain level ofprivilege, a certain level of
wealth, they can forget thatone, they may have come from a
family of sisters who don't havethat, or two, that they're still
a generation of sisters whodon't, who don't have that
access, who don't have thateducation, and are vulnerable to
(26:26):
these systems.
And you have been somebody whoin every way possible has always
been like, no matter where I go,I'm not forgetting them.
And so I think that's a part ofthe Abalus Sanctuary that really
one was closest to my heart.
(26:48):
But then I also think, like Isaid, it's the part of your work
that people really don't amplifyenough.
I think that we have so many ofus have taken our marching
orders from you in that space,and so many of us follow you
there.
And so for me, like those firstyears of really watching you
(27:11):
prioritize those kinds ofsisters in a space where they're
not that they're notprioritized, and to see you say,
like, as they are, withouttrying to clean up anything,
they are holy and they deserveevery bit of advocacy, every bit
(27:32):
of intervention, and every bitof support from black women and
black community, like that.
I will remember those moments,and I'm really grateful to be
there for that.
SPEAKER_04 (27:44):
Absolutely.
Yep, you're messing me up.
Wow, she gotta receive on I I'mstuck.
I can end the interview now.
I don't even know where to gofrom this.
SPEAKER_00 (27:56):
Thank you.
I receive it, just receive it,see.
SPEAKER_05 (28:00):
Yeah, you got, I mean, I think it's just like
sometimes just like it's dope tobe able to sit back five years
and be like, oh, wow, I did thisthing, but I think it's also
important for you to hear, like,yeah, while you were doing this
thing, we were also watchingyou.
And I think that like I am morestruck now about the the ways
(28:23):
that some sometimes blackworking class black women, black
women who are who are the mostvulnerable get discarded.
And even with just like with mywork and creative projects and
the other advocacy things that Ido, I think that like I'm always
(28:44):
trying to figure out, all right,how do I hold, how do I hold
space for them as them?
And how do I, how do I not tella story that feels like it's a
caricature?
And I go back to you.
Like you have been a model ofthat for like, no, like these
are sisters who we can't leavethem, we can't, and they're not,
(29:06):
and they're not objects ofstudy.
You see what I'm saying?
Like, I think that like we camefrom a place and we come from
academic worlds where blackwomen can be objects of study
for black women.
And one of the things that youdid with abolitionist sanctuary
is say, like, no, like these arethey and we are them, right?
And like, like, what does itlook like for us to prioritize
(29:31):
their care?
What does it look like for us toprioritize their safety?
And I think like in these, asyou look back, like yeah, you
get you get to say, like, I didthat, and as you and you get to
say, like, you get to hear ussay you have been on the
forefront of championing womenthat unfortunately a discourse
(29:57):
that's devoted to black womenoften sidelines, and your work
has included them back in verymeaningful ways.
So, like, yeah, like you get todo that with that.
What you doing?
SPEAKER_04 (30:12):
I'm telling the producer to take us out.
SPEAKER_00 (30:14):
We you need a moment to shando shape.
You need a moment to shandoshape.
I promise you, I don't gotnothing.
Let throw all the questions out.
SPEAKER_05 (30:28):
So let me tell you, I don't even know why you came
with like I looked at that emailand I was like, why are you
coming with this?
Like, I don't even I was like,why did she do it?
SPEAKER_04 (30:39):
I'm about to mute Candace Mike because she is in
whatever oil she is on rightnow.
SPEAKER_01 (30:49):
It's real, and I think what's important, Dr.
Nikia, is you have to receivethat.
Yes, and it's hard.
And I know, I know it's hard foryou.
I know I can see it's like, whatdo I do?
Receive it.
See, that's part of the work,right?
Is that you have to receive andembrace what is being said
because not only is it true, notonly is it true, but this is the
(31:11):
work that you do beyond the theestablishment of app.
This is how you show up.
And I just you have to risk youhave to embody, you have to
receive it.
SPEAKER_04 (31:22):
I wish you could hear my words on the inside.
I'm over here like this is somebull.
We had hijacked.
Right, and they read you.
Thank you.
(31:42):
Thank you.
I receive that, and I appreciatethe ways in which you guys are
seeing me and recognizing thework of abolitionist sanctuary
and the ways in which you havebeen a part of it.
Motherhood is something that isspecial to all of us, and so
let's talk about our mamas,right?
Because that is really that'sthat's what drives the work that
(32:05):
we do.
Candace, you've been verytransparent about your mother.
Najuma, you recently postedsomething.
You said, I usually don't postmy mom, but there was a
breakthrough there.
Let's talk about, let's lift upthose narratives and why that is
important to the work that we'redoing.
SPEAKER_01 (32:21):
Yeah, I mean, my mother stands all of five three,
maybe, but she is a force to bereckoned with my whole life.
You know, when I had littleboyfriends and stuff in high
school, they were afraid ofBeverly Smith because she didn't
play, she didn't throw nopunches, and she still don't.
She is fierce, she isstraightforward, she don't spare
(32:43):
nothing, but she is loving, sheis kind, she believes in the
right thing.
My mother, you know, in heryounger years was part of the LA
chapter of the Black Panthers,and so I grew up with some of
that energy.
I wasn't in the space, ofcourse, I wasn't born yet, but
that energy came with my mother.
But that's also how mygrandmother was.
(33:04):
My grandmother and my mother arethe two most prominent female
figures in my life.
But my mother now is apracticing trouble witness, she
has been for a very long time.
So she ain't never been to mychurch, she ain't never been to
no church I've ever passed her,she ain't never heard me preach,
and that's okay.
That's fine.
We have a great love and respectfor each other's differences in
that space.
But as far as where the fight inme comes in, and you know, the
(33:30):
tenacity and the drive, that'sall Beverly Smith.
You know, the determination, theindependence sometimes, which
can be a fault, that all isBeverly Smith.
And so to watch her now at 80,almost 83, you know, she's just
you know, dancing with mydaughter, having overcome, you
know, she had a terrible caraccident that put her in a
wheelchair and pins and allthat, and she overcame that.
(33:53):
And so that's just indicative ofwho she's always been, just a
fighter.
And she's not a politicalperson, but in private
conversations, you know exactlywhere she stands, and she
continues to stand for blackfolks.
She just doesn't do politicsbecause, as you'll witness,
that's not what nevernecessarily her focus, but she
is absolutely all about herblack family, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (34:16):
Shout out to Beverly Smith.
SPEAKER_06 (34:18):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (34:26):
Wow.
And I was just like, and I andit was so funny because I said
after that, I said, well, then Iwant to go and do as much
healing work as possible.
I want to respect her ineverything that I do.
Mama, it's so funny though,because I realize and I've
(34:46):
always said that my work hingeson this belief that I have that
sometimes the most difficultrelationship that black women
navigate is the relationshipwith their mamas because they're
because they're trying tonegotiate what it means to be
the woman that they're becomingversus the daughter that either
(35:08):
they think their mother wants ortheir mama has been very clear
that they need to be.
And sometimes it's not alwayscongruent.
And like my mama and I, ourfiercest conversations were
around theology and politics andsex.
And she will always be like, alady doesn't talk about these
things in public.
And I'm like, girl, that is noteven raising.
(35:30):
It's so funny because I thinkoften black women, particularly
like free-thinking black women,want to raise these
free-thinking black girls, andthen when you become what they
raise, they be like, now wait aminute, like you're a little too
free.
And so, like, I think that thatwas my mom that she was just
like, girl, if I had to doagain, I would have gave this
(35:52):
freedom a bit of parameters, andbut I am who I am because of
her, and it's so funny becauseafter I had about I had a few
years because she passed in2015, and then my grandmother
passed in 2022, and so I hadthat stretch of time with just
my grandma, and I saw where shegot it from, like that that
(36:17):
fire, that fire was theirs andwas my grandmama's that my mama
figured out how to tamper alittle bit for public
consumption, and then I justcame and was like, let's just
pour gasoline on this joker,right?
And like that was mygrandmother, and I also to to
the point of like to the pointof even just like the the cute
(36:40):
the creation of abolitionistsanctuary and just like the way
that we are able to dreamdifferently than they were.
Like, I remember when my grandmawas like, I would have loved to
have been a teacher, but I had ababy early and I needed to focus
on family.
And she was like, Your you andyour mama got to do things that
(37:04):
I only dreamed I could do, andthen I didn't even know how to
dream this was even possible.
And and so I realized sometimeswhen we say things like we're
our ancestors' wildest dreams,that's not true because they
didn't even, they couldn't evenconceive of being like, and
that's some of our ancestors wholived in our lifetimes, right?
(37:27):
And it's I think that when wetalk about black mamas and we
talk about black motherhood,like what does it look like to
achieve beyond what they evencould conceptualize for
themselves, and that like theirceiling becomes what we
(37:49):
normalize for a new generationof girls and and daughters and
nieces, and like and I'll saythis in close, like what has
been on my heart, like hurtingit, is being here and seeing the
way that particularly reproducedreproductive rights have been
(38:10):
rolled back, and then like I wastelling my cousin, I said, it's
wild that that grandmama diedwith more bodily autonomy than
your six-year-old daughter has,right?
And like, what does that evenmean for the kind of fight and
the work that we have to do?
That same fight and spiritthat's in Miss Beverly, that's
(38:33):
in Helen, my grandma, that's inNakia's mama, that's in my mama,
Deborah, that fight we have tobring even more to bear.
That like it's cute to be like,yeah, like this is a generation,
like we keep seeing generationsbeyond ourselves and all that,
but what are they inheriting?
And and I think that's the partof like when I think about all
(38:56):
the fights that me and my mamahad, all the arguments, the ways
that I would drive her crazy,the ways that she did not know
how to apologize, but would senda PayPal to tell me I had one
account.
Like, like she, I am able to beme because of her.
(39:16):
I'm able to think about thosekinds of things because she made
me think about those things andshe made me read books when I
didn't want to read them.
And like, and I'm I'm gratefulin ways that didn't always know
to be grateful.
Yeah, yeah, I'm grateful.
SPEAKER_04 (39:36):
Yeah, that is, I think that aptly describes my
relationship with my we werefreaking frat, right?
Inseparable, always together,but boy, did we go at it.
And and this is also why there'ssomething sacred about Black
motherhood.
And motherhood isn't somethingthat's only assigned by
(39:57):
biological children, but theways in which we nurture and
care for communities, which iswhy with Abolition Sanctuary,
we're trying to fund adocumentary that is highlighting
the survival stories ofcommunity mothers, church
mothers, and carceral mothers.
But the community mothers isreally important, right?
Because it's recognizing thatnot all mothers have to have
biological children, but thereare mothers who are nurturing
(40:20):
and are acting as surrogates andso forth.
But we fight for black mothersbecause black mothers dream,
right?
And we dream beyond ourcircumstance, beyond
intergenerational barriers.
We dream, but when there's acarceral system, right, that is
seeking to rob us of thosedreams just because we are
(40:41):
trying to actualize them bymaking a way out of no way,
that's a crisis, right?
It's a critical problem for ourcommunities.
Talk to us about your views onthe criminalization of Black
motherhood and our survivalstrategies and how that is
critical for our communities,for our democracy, and even
(41:02):
salvation, right?
The ways in which when blackmothers dream, it saves lives,
right?
SPEAKER_01 (41:07):
Yeah.
Oh, so I'm gonna start this way.
I did a lot of things my mothernever did.
I made a lot of mistakes mymother never made.
And a couple of those mistakesput me in jail for a short
period of time.
And what I appreciate in themistakes that I made, my mother
didn't judge me.
She stood right by me becauseshe understood I was doing the
(41:28):
best that I could, right?
And I think what we don't havethe what I try to do when I talk
with young mothers now and workwith, I have a couple of mentees
who are mothers, is to show upfor them in that non-judgmental
way.
Like hear their stories, heartheir narrative, be like, all
right, girl, let's just figureit out.
(41:49):
Because that's how my mamashowed up for me.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, I remember when I calledher, I was like, Mommy, you
gotta go pick up Daniel becauseI'm in jail.
And she's like, Okay, where's heat?
And then it was like, we'll talkabout why you're in jail later.
And so I try to tell I try toshow up that way for young
women, especially mothers now.
(42:10):
I have a commitment to a few,like I said, a few mentees who
are mothers that anything theyneed, they can call me for, they
can, and we're gonna figure itout because the because because
we are navigating a differentset of rules as black mothers.
I am very clear about that.
And you know, parenting isdifferent for me now with Dory
and Missouri, they're muchyounger.
(42:31):
When I had Daniel, I was in myearly 20s, and I wasn't only
that was it not information Idid not have, I was also healing
from trauma of sexual assaultand all that abuse and all that.
But like the ways in which thesystem was set up, I was like,
oh, it's a difference.
(42:51):
Like, and experiencing thatfirsthand, oh, there's a
difference.
And so I don't even know if I'manswering the question, but but
I felt it, I saw it, Iexperienced it, and I'm grateful
that I have my mother who didn'tjudge me, who was there for me.
And there were a lot of thingsshe couldn't solve for me
because we had this greatdifference in how we saw life
(43:12):
and the world, you me as aChristian, her as a Jehovah's
Witness.
However, she was always therefor me, and I tried to do that
for young women at the same timehelping them understand how to
navigate these systems becausethey are not, it's they're not
created equal.
It doesn't, and it doesn'tmatter.
Money almost money doesn'tmatter, fame doesn't matter,
(43:33):
celebrity doesn't matter.
The system is it is it is set upto demonize, it is set up to
tear down, it is set up set upto harm.
And so I just try to do that inthe work that I do, but also
with my mentees in this one onone space.
I try to be there.
And I hope I answered thequestion, but that's just what
(43:53):
I'm saying.
SPEAKER_04 (43:54):
That's really good.
You you answered it.
That was really good.
Thank you.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (44:00):
Really interesting because right now I'm working on
a creative project that reallylooks at how the child support
system leaves black mothers veryincreasingly vulnerable.
SPEAKER_03 (44:14):
Wow.
SPEAKER_05 (44:15):
And how they have to, this group of women make a
very drastic decision to fortheir children.
And when I was talking to one ofthe producers, and I said, I
don't want, I said the theantagonist here isn't even the
fathers, but the antagonist hereis the system.
(44:36):
Like it needs to be very clearthat that the system is not
designed to care for blackmothers because the system hates
that black, that that blackbirthing people exist to create
to create a nation of peoplethat that still endure to create
(45:02):
that this that these systemsdespise that a black mama can
choose to love, right?
Like even the worst of mothers,there is something about their
children that will always findthem endearing, that will always
(45:24):
have that one memory of a goodtime that they hold on to, and
that one memory seeds a hopethat systems have long wanted to
root out and to destroy.
(46:11):
And what does that mean to beput into ethic and into
practice?
Right?
It means that I'm gonna hear youand I'm gonna tell you first
thing I say is I love you.
You did what you had to do withthe set of choices and options
that you had.
Now it is very clear that thischoice was not the most optimal,
right?
So let's figure out how we'regonna move and how we're gonna
(46:34):
adjust and what we are going todo beyond this moment.
But I think that's the kind oflove, that's the kind of care I
remember telling one of mycousins there will never be a
point in your life where you donot have me as support.
Absolutely.
There will never be a time inyour life where you feel like
the older women in your familydon't have your back because you
(46:55):
are right and you are a youngmom.
No that not only can you call mein the midst of anything, your
kids can call me in the midst ofanything, and also to be the
cousin that when somebody sayssomething, I'm gonna defend it
and be like, Well, I mean, wewasn't around when you was doing
what you was doing, so we don'tknow, right?
(47:15):
You know, and it's and it's likekind of like even doing that in
church to be like who like whoyou talking to?
It's like you're talking to herlike that, and I think that like
that kind of like putting whenyou put your body on the line in
that way, um, because it's notjust these systems that make
(47:36):
black mamas feel, particularlyblack single mothers, working
class and poor black singlemothers, it's not just these
systems that make them feel thatmake them question their worth
and their value.
They feeling that stuff in theirown families and in their own
community and their churches andin their churches, and like when
(47:56):
you stand up and be like, wewhat we not gonna do is that,
and if you're gonna do it infront of me, like what we are
signaling to them is that youmatter, you have value, and I
refuse to let anybody tell youotherwise.
But yeah, like that's the kindof fierce advocacy that we gotta
(48:19):
have.
Yeah.
Thank you both.
SPEAKER_04 (48:21):
And you are poignantly capturing the mission
of Avalish the Sanctuary, right?
And the ethics that Katie GenevaCanon lays out for us, right?
What society constitutes as avice for black women, it has
been virtue.
And so what we're doing atAvalista Sanctuary is though
society is criminalizing thesurvival strategies of black
mothers and constructing it asdeviant.
(48:44):
What we see is their survivalstrategies as a source of moral
integrity and even salvationbecause they respond
compassionately when we callfrom prison, right?
And ask no questions, becausethey are not condemning, right?
And so there are some virtuesthat are coming out of black
mothers that are instructive forupending or dismantling the
(49:04):
systems that are stacked upagainst us and designed to make
our survival nearly impossiblein the first place, right?
SPEAKER_01 (49:14):
If I may, can I share a quick story?
I think which speaks to whatyou're talking about.
When I was pastoring at St.
James Amy Church, St.
James at the time was locatedright off of Figueroa.
For those that are not familiarwith Figueroa, Figueroa is the
stroll in South LA.
And, you know, we we had aministry that worked with the
young ladies that would oftenpass by the church because we
were only one block off ofFigueroa.
(49:36):
One of our members, her sisterwas often, or not her sister,
but her cousin was often onFigueroa.
And I remember one Sunday shecame to church, and after
church, they brought her in myoffice and she was in tears and
crying, and you know, I wastrying to understand what was
going on.
And her cousin was telling methat, you know, she got us in
trouble and you know, shestruggles with alcoholism.
(49:57):
And I just remember the younggirl saying to me, she said,
they're trying to put me injail.
I don't need jail, I need help.
And I think that is emotionalabout that.
That and that girl, and so Isaid, you know what, sis, we're
gonna get you some help.
And we did everything we could,and we she did not end up going
to jail.
We got her into a program, but Ithink that is what you're
(50:18):
saying.
Like, our work is to get thesemamas help.
They don't need to beincarcerated.
That girl didn't need noincarceration, she needed help,
she need help with heraddiction, need help with
whatever happened to her thatgot her on the street, that got
her addicted, she need help withher children, and I think that
is a part of this work, is likemaking sure we are the help, you
(50:39):
know, the helpers that God hassent to help these mamas out.
Young, the young ones, yes, theolder ones, even too.
But that just that to me hasalways been the story that
reminds me of where my focus is.
I don't need to go to jail.
She said, I don't need you, Ineed help.
And I think that's what drivesme also.
SPEAKER_04 (50:58):
But I just wanted to share that story because I think
that's a part of doing a reallygreat story, and that is what
makes word of encouragementchurch and abolitionist
sanctuary, because you are doingthe work of shifting away from
punishment and condemnationtowards the positive
abolitionist virtues ofcompassion, care, creativity,
(51:19):
courage, and community in waysthat centers the wellness and
wholeness of black mothers.
My final question before we goto this rapid round is if you
could share with someone in yournetwork or someone who you don't
know at all, why you think theyshould support abolitionist
sanctuary's mission, what wouldyou say to help us to become a
(51:40):
fully funded and sustainableorganization for the next five
years and beyond?
SPEAKER_01 (51:45):
What I would say number one is the training that
comes with AbolitionistSanctuary is a training that is
not readily available, but itneeds to be widespread.
And so that would be one.
But number two, I believe thatabolitionist Sanctuary will help
all of us not only do the work,but also to heal, heal the ways
(52:09):
in which even black folks havebought into a carceral system
and process for black mothersand black families, black bodies
in general, right?
Help to pull us out of that.
And so, in supporting that work,we're creating sanctuaries and
space for that conversation.
So we may not see the full shiftin our lifetime or even the next
(52:34):
few years, but in time, the workwill shift the tide.
And I do believe it can shiftthe tide nationwide.
And so those are my two mainreasons why individuals should
support abolitionist sanctuary.
SPEAKER_04 (52:47):
Thank you, Candace.
SPEAKER_05 (52:49):
Yeah, I think the for me, the main reason that
someone should supportabolitionist sanctuary and it
needs to become a fully fundedspace, a fully funded agency, is
because we need each other nowmore than we have ever needed
each other before.
And what abolitionist sanctuaryhas been able to do is to not
(53:13):
only challenge the way that wethink about systems, but to
lovingly push us to question howin our own ways we may embody
and justify those systems thatcreate harm for people that we
love and for people that we dothat we live for and we do this
(53:37):
work for.
It is a unique organization thatis doing a work that not only
isn't found in a lot of spaces,but it's doing a work that
really is relevant not only tothe moment, but it is a honor to
the generations before, and it'sa gift to the ones that's coming
(54:01):
beyond us and coming ahead ofus.
And so I'm excited about one,its future, but I'm really
excited about what it can do andwill do as more people continue
to partner and to we're in amoment where financially so it
into dreams is what's neededmore than we need prayer,
(54:25):
absolutely.
But as my grandmama, who was thepresident of her pastors aid for
30 years, would say sometimes Ineed you to pray with that
pocketbook.
Oh, that's right.
We need the abolitionistsanctuary to we need those kinds
of prayers because the work, thetraining, the advocacy, as these
(54:46):
systems continue to intensify,then we need more sanctuaries
and more spaces that have beenequipped and adequately trained
to meet what to meet with forcewhat these systems are doing
forcefully to our kin.
(55:07):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_04 (55:07):
I appreciate that.
And listen, while you aresupporting abolitionist
sanctuary, make sure you lookand support Zion Hill Media
Group, which is uh founded byCandace Benbo and Wake Up and
Win.
That is the initiative ofReverend Dr.
Najuma.
And I'm gonna take us out withthis rapid round.
(55:28):
I did not give this to you inadvance.
We did.
So when I say these words, Iwant you to just give me one
word of what comes to mind.
This time, Candace, you gofirst.
Dr.
Najuma, you go second.
Okay, Nicki Minaj.
SPEAKER_05 (55:43):
Crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (55:47):
Am I giving my word too?
Yes, Jill.
Chris Brown.
Why?
SPEAKER_04 (55:56):
Expensive tickets.
New York Knicks, champions.
I know that's right.
The same.
Juneteenth.
SPEAKER_05 (56:08):
Freedom.
Watermelon.
SPEAKER_04 (56:11):
Red Listen.
SPEAKER_01 (56:13):
Everything.
I learned it from Candace Bimbo.
Wake up and win.
Joy.
SPEAKER_05 (56:26):
We still winning.
Winning.
Black mothers.
Salvation.
Phenomenal.
Love.
Essential.
More.
The church.
SPEAKER_04 (56:51):
Favorite meal to cook.
SPEAKER_05 (56:56):
Pig feet, pig feet, potato salad, and green beans.
SPEAKER_04 (56:59):
I know you lying.
That's not what you cooked whenI was down there, but all right.
Go ahead.
SPEAKER_00 (57:09):
I did because you went and ate it, but it's my
favorite thing to cook.
SPEAKER_01 (57:15):
My daughter loves a grilled steak.
So grilled steak.
SPEAKER_04 (57:18):
Favorite church song?
SPEAKER_01 (57:21):
Great is that faithfulness.
It's hasten to the throne.
That's not what I love the Lord.
I love the Lord.
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (57:28):
Favorite color?
SPEAKER_05 (57:30):
Pink.
SPEAKER_04 (57:36):
I ain't gonna say, I ain't gonna say that.
I believe that between that.
Favorite thing to do, readsnowboarding.
Biggest pet peeve.
SPEAKER_05 (57:47):
When people go down the wrong aisle driving in the
Walmart parking lot, the arrowis going up from the I hate when
people do that around the RoseBowl.
SPEAKER_04 (57:56):
You be trying to walk around the rose bowl.
People always walking in thewrong direction.
I hate that.
Why do we have arrows?
Why do we have arrows?
Basically, I was gonna wear at-shirt that says if you're
reading this sign, you'rewalking in the wrong direction.
SPEAKER_00 (58:09):
You should read that.
That's a good sign.
That's a good sign.
You should do that.
SPEAKER_03 (58:12):
You should.
I want that.
SPEAKER_01 (58:14):
Yeah, pet.
I'm drop.
What's my pet?
I think people don't get it likeslow.
SPEAKER_04 (58:21):
Yeah, yeah.
Greatest hope.
SPEAKER_05 (58:28):
There's some of this stuff I'll see in my lifetime
that I get to meet mygreat-grandchildren.
SPEAKER_01 (58:35):
I have grandchildren, but I want to
meet at least one of mygreat-grandchildren.
I live to see one of them.
SPEAKER_04 (58:40):
Yeah, I like that.
Turn up or Netflix and chill.
It depends.
SPEAKER_01 (58:47):
It depends.
It depends.
It really does depend.
Even though I like a good turnup.
I think turn up.
I think turn up.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (58:55):
I think I I'm always I'm always choose a turn up
because I can Netflix and chillin a heartbeat.
SPEAKER_00 (59:02):
I do.
I am.
I will pick a turn up.
Yeah.
Y'all ready for this one?
What was it?
What was it?
Did she say PIP?
Yeah.
She left the screen.
SPEAKER_04 (59:21):
No.
The next one is abolitionistsanctuary.
Abolitionist sanctuary.
It's our last one.
The men's pride.
SPEAKER_05 (59:30):
Excellence.
SPEAKER_04 (59:32):
Thank you for joining this conversation.
Abolitionist Sanctuary podcast.
As we close, please download andshare on all platforms.
Again, I am your host, ReverendDr.
Nakia Smith Robert, the founderand executive director of
Abolitionist Sanctuary.
You can follow us on YouTube,Instagram, Facebook, and
(59:55):
download our social mobile app.
Also enroll in our courses atabolitionacademy.com and become
certified.
Don't forget to become a memberand subscribe to our mailing
list at abolitionistsctuary.org.
And as we conclude this episode,remember that abolition is not
only a practice, but it is a wayof life.
And for me, abolitionist byreligion.
(01:00:17):
Let's lead a faith basedabolitionist movement together.
Dr.
Najuma and Candace, thank you somuch for being on the show.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00:23):
We appreciate you.
Love you, sis.
Thank you, sis.
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Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com