Guest Bio
Daan Oxener is the co-founder of Home of Friends Guesthouse & Community Experiences Uganda, a community-rooted guesthouse and adventure travel hub based in Kapchorwa on the slopes of Mount Elgon. Originally from the Netherlands, Daan’s path to Uganda began with an early fascination for Africa, later deepened through travel, social entrepreneurship, youth development, and sport.
Over the past seven years, Daan has worked alongside local guides, athletes, families, and community members to shape immersive travel experiences that reflect the strengths of the Mount Elgon highlands. Through Home of Friends, he helps visitors connect with the region through hiking, biking, trail running, cultural exchange, and locally led adventures that support long-term opportunities for guides, youth, women, and local families.
Show Summary
In this episode of the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast, host Jason Elkins speaks with Daan Oxener, co-founder of Home of Friends Guesthouse & Community Experiences Uganda. Based in the highlands of eastern Uganda, Daan shares how Home of Friends has grown into more than a place to stay. It is a meeting point for travelers, runners, guides, families, and community members who want to experience the Mount Elgon region in a deeper and more personal way.
Daan talks about the unique appeal of Kapchorwa, a mountain town known for its high-altitude running culture, welcoming communities, waterfalls, remote trails, and strong traditions. It is also the home to world champion runners such as Joshua Cheptegei and Jacob Kiplimo. He explains how travelers can experience the area through multi-day treks, cultural encounters, running experiences, biking, and visits with local families who share skills such as bamboo basket weaving, farming, and honey wine making.
The conversation also follows Daan’s personal journey from the Netherlands to Uganda, including his early interest in Africa, his background in business and human resources, and the decision to leave a corporate path in search of more meaningful work. Along the way, Jason and Daan explore what it takes to build a community-based tourism enterprise in a rural setting, the importance of slowing down, and why the future of adventure travel in eastern Uganda is rooted in relationships, patience, and local strengths.
Big World Made Small guest features are invitation-only and selected based on story, experience, and fit with the show. Guest support helps make the episode possible, but it does not determine who is featured. This helps keep the show free of third-party ads and interruptions while keeping the focus on real, story-driven conversations.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (01:05):
Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of
the Big World Made Small podcastfor the Adventure Traveler.
So happy to have each and everyone of you back here today.
And I'm also super excited.
We've got a fascinating guestfor you today.
His name is Dan Oxener.
He's the co-founder of HamaFriends Guest House and
Community Experiences in Uganda.
Dan, welcome to the show.
Happy to have you here.
SPEAKER_00 (01:26):
Thank you, uh Jason.
Great to be here.
SPEAKER_03 (01:29):
We're going to have a fascinating conversation.
We spoke a few weeks ago.
I think you were actually inUganda when we spoke, and now
you're visiting family.
Where are you right now?
SPEAKER_00 (01:38):
I'm right now in the east of the Netherlands.
Not far from the German border,and that's where I grew up and
uh lived up to uh up to up to 18years of age.
SPEAKER_03 (01:50):
We're gonna get really deep into how you got
from I was gonna say where youwhere you were, but I guess
where you are right now to whereyou are in life, which obviously
is gonna involve discussions ofUganda and all that stuff.
Let's do this before we get toodeep into that.
Let's give our listeners kind ofthe, I don't know, 60 seconds,
we can go as long as we want,but maybe the 60-second elevator
(02:12):
pitch on what is home of friendsguest house and community
experiences?
What do you guys what do youguys do?
How would you describe that topeople?
SPEAKER_00 (02:21):
Yeah, thank you.
That's uh that's a good questionto start with.
Uh Home of Friends uh guesthouse um and community
experiences is a hub forcommunity-based uh adventure
travel on the slopes of uhMountain Elgin uh in the eastern
again I landed also in theeastern part of Uganda.
(02:42):
Um on the eastern uh uh part ofin the eastern part of Uganda
and we offer a wide variety ofum yeah adventure experiences,
hiking, biking, running.
Um and we've also developedcultural experiences over the
over the years.
Sometimes these are separateactivities and sometimes they
(03:05):
are uh blended together.
Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (03:09):
What do you mean by it when you say sometimes
they're separate activities andthen sometimes they're blended
together?
Help me get a betterunderstanding of what you're
saying.
SPEAKER_00 (03:16):
Yeah, I was actually meaning uh, for example, our
Mosabishek trail that's a two orthree-day trekking through the
remote highlands of Mount Elgin.
That's where um the adventuretraveler both experiences the
incredible nature, thewaterfalls, the viewpoints, the
farmlands, um, and alsoexperiences the culture of an
(03:38):
indigenous community.
For example, through bamboobasket weaving with a with a
woman in that village, orlearning how to farm or how to
make a honey wine, which ispopular in that area.
SPEAKER_03 (03:51):
Okay, very, very cool.
I mean, obviously, the the guesthouse part was pretty easy, and
I want to expand on that alittle bit, and then we'll
discuss kind of how it all gothow it all came about.
But so what I hear you saying iswe've got a cool guest house,
people come stay with us, andthen we go do all these
different types of activitiesand adventures that you were
(04:12):
just discussing.
Is that pretty much summarizeit?
That that's uh probablyoversimplifies it.
I get that.
Definitely oversimplifies it,I'm sure.
Do do all of your guests stay atthe guest house?
I mean, I guess I guess thequestion is if somebody's in the
area staying at another place,do you set up tours for them as
well?
Or is it uh kind of a packagedeal where you gotta, you know,
(04:34):
you stay at the guest house andwe go do these other activities?
How does that work?
SPEAKER_00 (04:37):
Yeah, in 80% of the cases, our guests stay in our
rooms.
And actually, we we are gettingmore inquiries from from
travelers who may be staying inthe nearby um CP Falls area that
is a known hotspot for fortourism, and who may want to
book one of our communityexperiences.
So, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (04:56):
Okay, very cool.
And where are most of yourguests from?
SPEAKER_00 (05:00):
Majority from Northwestern Europe.
And then also visitors fromSouth America, United States,
several countries in Asia,sometimes Australia, um, and
expats from the from the capitalin Uganda, Kampala, or the the
(05:20):
the source of the river now,Jinja?
Yeah, so it's a wide uh range ofuh of of backgrounds of our
guests.
SPEAKER_03 (05:29):
Let's um I guess because I'm more familiar with
maybe the US market, the typicalUS guest that comes to Uganda,
what is the major draw?
And I'm I I'm I'm guessing whatyou might say, but what do
people in the US think aboutUganda when they think, I want
to go to Uganda to do what?
SPEAKER_00 (05:47):
Yeah, that that's 100% gorillas.
SPEAKER_03 (05:49):
So um I'm happy you said that because that's exactly
what I was thinking.
SPEAKER_02 (05:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (05:54):
Okay, do the your is it that way for people from
Australia, northwestern Europe,as well.
I mean, you mentioned severalother places.
Is that pretty consistent acrossthe board that that's what
people think they should go toUganda for?
SPEAKER_00 (06:09):
Yeah, to a slightly lesser extent for those uh
countries.
I I I've learned that I'velearned that the definition of
of adventure travel for the forthe US uh visitors um yeah is
often uh uh going from park topark and from gorilla to
chimpanzee and being drivenaround.
(06:31):
And the definition uh in othercountries is sometimes a little
bit more off the beaten track,maybe sometimes a self-drive,
and that automatically meansthat more people will also come
to the remote area that we arein and the undiscovered east and
northern east of Uganda.
SPEAKER_03 (06:48):
Do you are you willing to have a philosophical
conversation for what that, whythat is, that the US market is
different?
SPEAKER_00 (06:55):
Let's skip that part, uh Jason.
SPEAKER_03 (06:56):
Let's skip that.
Okay.
You're a smart man.
Well, it is interesting.
I mean, I have some of my owntheories, but I definitely I'll
I'll touch on that.
I think um Europeans are veryfortunate in the sense that they
grow up in a much moremulticultural um environment.
So going to a different countryor a place where they speak
different languages, I think isjust generally more comfortable
(07:17):
um for a lot of a lot ofEuropeans.
And then I often think of likeAustralians and and Kiwis, they
I think they all leave at somepoint in their life and go
travel.
Yeah, it's just because they'reso isolated.
Where in the US we have a prettycool mix of things, and you
don't really have to leave ifyou don't want to, but um, very
(07:37):
cool.
Okay, so you do not I believewhat I heard you say is your
area is not known for gorillasor champion chimpanzees, is that
right?
SPEAKER_00 (07:45):
No, certainly not.
No, there is a neighbor nearbyuh game reserve which will
likely be upgraded to a nationalpark within the next few years.
It's called Pianupe, and that'swhere antelopes, uh giraffes,
and various other wildlife isbeing found.
No, our our area is known forhigh altitude running.
Yeah.
Um in combination withwaterfalls and a culture that's
(08:09):
pretty much intact.
So uh that's also the uniquething about the whole east of
Uganda that they are stilltraditional cultures,
interesting experiences.
People live in them in the moreyeah, original, authentic way.
Is that the right word?
SPEAKER_03 (08:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Is is that because you don'thave gorillas and chimpanzees in
that area?
So the the tourism?
I just wonder about the tourism.
Like it was it the other areasare more popular with tourism or
have been in the past.
So maybe some of the communitieswere more influenced by
outsiders?
SPEAKER_00 (08:44):
Or you might totally and um investments in in road
network and tourism in generalhas only come maybe for 10-15
years now in the in our part ofthe country, whilst yeah, the
west of Uganda is um yeah, is inthat sense more developed and
and more known for a longertime.
SPEAKER_03 (09:03):
I'm so anxious to get to the part where you tell
me how you found this place, whyyou ended up there.
Before we get there though, I Ijust want to dig a little
deeper.
Is it typical your gueststypical?
I you decide how to answer thisquestion, but I guess the
question is do most of yourguests come and do Western
(09:24):
Uganda as well and then comespend some time with you?
Or is it people that havealready been to Uganda in the
past that come to your area?
Or what does it typically looklike?
SPEAKER_00 (09:34):
Five, six years ago, it would be that 80% of our
visitors do the complete Ugandaloop, including the those
highlights in the west, andmaybe ginja, where there's
rafting, and then includes umyeah, one one or more hotspots
in our area.
But it has developed over theyears, and we see the trend that
(09:55):
people are looking for immersiveof the beaten track experiences.
So yeah, we see an increase ofpeople who just focus on the
northeastern loop, and then it'sstill likely to be Jinja.
Come to our Kapchoa slash SippyFalls area, and then proceed
towards the Karamoja, theKaramoja lands with Key Depot,
that's a more remote and andbeautiful national park in the
(10:19):
far north of the of the country,close to the uh South Sudan uh
border.
SPEAKER_03 (10:25):
Okay.
You mentioned ginger a fewtimes.
I think I heard you say that'skind of the headwaters of the of
the Nile.
Is that tell tell us more abouttell me more about that?
Alright.
Please.
SPEAKER_00 (10:39):
Yep.
Um, well, this is where,according to the history books,
Speak found the source of theNile in 1862.
Still debate we could do, butlet's not uh get off track.
Stay away from politics.
SPEAKER_03 (10:55):
We don't need to talk about that.
But anyway, but tell me moreabout ginger.
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00 (11:00):
Uh ginger is known for for a few decades now for
water activities on the on theNile.
So rafting, kayaking, tubing.
It it used to have the fastestrapids in Africa.
A few years ago we got one ortwo dams that have been built in
the Nile.
So the the speed of the watershas slightly reduced, but it's
(11:21):
still a popular place for uhsports lovers.
SPEAKER_03 (11:26):
Is ginger a region?
Is it the name of the riverthere?
Is it a park?
What is when you say ginger,what does that mean?
SPEAKER_00 (11:34):
Yeah, ginger hasn't the name of the the town along
the along the banks of RiverNile.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (11:42):
Alright, very, very cool.
You also mentioned running, highaltitude running.
I was I am kind of aware ofthat.
Um but I'd not enough.
I want to learn more, and Idon't want our listeners to
think, oh, this is you only gothere if you want to do high
altitude running, because I Iget that clear that that's not
the case.
But there's a lot of people thatdo go there because of high
(12:03):
altitude running, which to me, Ias someone who hasn't run in 20
years, I don't quite understandit.
But I'm looking at you, you gota shirt up.
What is you wanted to show yourshirt to me earlier?
What is your shirt saying let'sgo then?
SPEAKER_00 (12:16):
Here we go.
SPEAKER_03 (12:17):
Run Copchoa.
unknown (12:19):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (12:19):
So Copchoa is the name of the uh the mountain
settlement, the settlement, thelittle town where we are based.
And actually, it means in thelocal language, home of France.
SPEAKER_03 (12:32):
Okay, well we came here.
Okay, all right.
SPEAKER_00 (12:37):
I came in the area the first time in 2014, and that
was just a few days after ourchampion, one of our champions,
long distance running, JoshuaCheptage, had won gold in the
junior world championships inthe Eugene.
So there's a US link here.
It was in early August.
(12:58):
We have quite many rain, rainyseasons, so I can remember it
was raining a lot that day.
We were doing an explorationhike, and I had the honor and
the luck to be invited atJoshua's uh home in his village,
just uh five kilometers higherup the mountain.
And I learned that day that thehospitality in the area was just
(13:18):
amazing.
I think I had some uh somechallenges later because I got
uh uh uh chapatis that's uhUgandan pancake and African tea,
um, which can produce somegases, you know.
And at altitude, I hear that canbe and I was new in the area, so
I couldn't refuse.
(13:39):
Yeah, that was a day uh thatinspired me uh uh later, two
years later, on the name for ouruh our guest house.
SPEAKER_03 (13:46):
I think we're at the point we better start discussing
how you got from where you areto where you are.
You know what I mean?
Where you were to where you are.
So let's go back.
How Dan, how far back do we needto go to kind of understand why
this European guy ended up uhrunning this uh guest house and
operation in Uganda?
How far how far back should wego?
SPEAKER_00 (14:05):
Uh 2012.
unknown (14:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (14:08):
Okay, so 2012.
How old were you in 2012?
SPEAKER_00 (14:12):
Uh 28 years.
SPEAKER_03 (14:15):
Let's go further.
Come on.
I I suspect something somethinghappened before 2012.
2012 was probably a pivotalmoment.
I get that.
We're gonna come back to that.
Yeah, yeah.
But when you were growing up,when you were like, if I went to
you when you were 14, 15 yearsold and said, Dan, what do you
want to do when you grow up?
What were what were yourthoughts?
SPEAKER_00 (14:33):
Uh I wanted to become a professional tennis
player, actually.
By then I was training almostevery day.
unknown (14:40):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (14:41):
But around that age, I also learned that I would not
become the next uh RogerFederer.
SPEAKER_03 (14:46):
Okay.
So why why tennis?
SPEAKER_00 (14:50):
Yeah, where did where did tennis come from?
That's that's interesting.
Good question.
Yeah, actually, from a familyand parents who had played my
both both of my parents wereinto ball sports.
They didn't get the fullopportunities when they were
young, especially my father.
So there was a lot ofencouragement when I was six,
seven years to to try outdifferent sports.
And um I had to use the wordencouragement.
SPEAKER_03 (15:14):
I like that.
You used that was that aspecific choice as opposed to
pressure?
Was it pressure orencouragement?
I'm just curious.
SPEAKER_00 (15:20):
No, it was yeah, no, no, no.
My parents are definitely thosenot those type of parents that
we sometimes see also alongfootball pitches, etc.
SPEAKER_03 (15:31):
Did you did you have opportunities to travel, explore
the world?
Was that even on your radar?
SPEAKER_00 (15:37):
By then, maybe I started thinking about it.
It came a little bit later in mystudents' time that I felt the
urge to discover, and that wasby then West Africa.
Did an internship there in Togofor 10 weeks.
Oh wow.
But I mean for the movie.
SPEAKER_03 (15:55):
What got you started?
That's because you said that youstarted to get in interested.
What was the pivotal moment?
I mean, you didn't justautomatically go to Togo for the
hell of it.
I mean, something somethinginspired you.
So what was going on at thattime?
SPEAKER_00 (16:09):
It's it's hard for me to point it out irrationally.
It's more of a uh intuition andand feeling that based on what I
had seen, maybe also apresentation from uh the parents
of a friend when I was when Iwas only six years old.
Yeah, something is coming up.
SPEAKER_03 (16:25):
Okay.
That's why I asked thesequestions, Dan.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay.
Six years old.
See, we went from 28 to 6, sowe're doing good.
Yeah.
1990, yeah.
Very cool.
Yeah.
So you saw a presentation.
Tell me about that, what youremember.
SPEAKER_00 (16:43):
They had lived in Africa, so by then we call them
DIA projectors.
Is it the same words you use?
These manual projectors thatused to be there in the 80s and
90s to the slide projectorswhere you had the little
carousel with all the littleplastic things that yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (16:59):
Exactly.
There's some people listening tothis that are gonna have no idea
what we're talking about.
But I know what you're talkingabout.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (17:07):
So And for some reason that fascinated me.
The colors I saw and the peopleI saw and the smiles, and I
guess that was a trigger, afirst early, early trigger.
SPEAKER_03 (17:17):
I get that.
Do you happen to remember was itjust Africa in general, or was
there a West Africa or aparticular place that they had
been that or do you evenremember as just Africa to you
at that time?
SPEAKER_00 (17:29):
By then it was it was Africa in general.
I'm sure, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:32):
Sub-Saharan Africa, I would say.
SPEAKER_03 (17:34):
Yeah.
There's only one Africa for mostpeople in the US.
I know.
Which we can discuss as well.
But anyway, um, all right, soyou you saw those those images,
and obviously, yeah, okay.
That's uh that's very cool.
And now now fast forward to whenyou decided you're not gonna be
Roger Federer.
And something was going on inschool and you ended up in Togo.
(17:57):
So what what was going on inschool?
SPEAKER_00 (18:00):
Um now I have to dig a little bit into my memory.
Yeah, maybe it relates to what Isaid before, the the the urge to
to explore and to learn about acompletely different place.
Yeah, and by then there's alsothat pragmatic reason that that
that's there for a lot of peopleactually is to to add that
(18:20):
experience to your CV, right?
Before you start sending outyour applications on the on the
job uh market uh after aftergraduation.
So um What were you studying?
Business administration.
SPEAKER_03 (18:33):
Ah, okay.
All right.
Okay.
Business administration, so youYeah, that make and again,
that's a I don't want to say aEuropean thing.
I don't want to go intostereotypes, but I as I was
saying earlier, I think thingsjust maybe feel closer to
Europeans.
I don't know.
So it's it, you know, going toAfrica to work build something
up on your CV is probably justseems a little bit more Yeah,
(18:56):
that makes sense.
Um when you were studyingbusiness because you went to do
this to build up your CV, you'restudying business
administration.
What kind of businessadministration did you want to
do when you talked about sendingout applications?
What types of places were yousending them out to, or what
kind of work were you wanting todo?
SPEAKER_00 (19:12):
On the one hand, it was still broad, so I knew I
wanted to get to a place where Icould learn a lot.
I I was aware enough to knowthat business administration is
quite abstract in university.
I I did choose HRM for mymasters.
So it it's So human resources?
HRM Human Resources.
So and I had always enjoyed fromthose early moments in my youth
(19:36):
of being on the tennis court.
I wasn't actually not a veryindividual player.
It was always I was flourishingand and getting happy when it
was a yearly annual uhcompetition with the team, and I
could coach and I couldencourage, there's the word
again.
SPEAKER_02 (19:50):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (19:54):
Maybe that also explains why it got me into the
master's uh thesis direction ofhuman resources and
organizational psychology.
Eventually I applied for atraineeship with a consultancy
company in uh the public sector.
And uh fast forward a few yearslater I was working as an
education consultant.
SPEAKER_03 (20:16):
Which was your first trip then to Africa?
Was that the time in Togo?
You said it was uh did you say10, a 10-week or something like
that?
Okay.
Yeah.
How old were you?
SPEAKER_00 (20:29):
Yeah, that was in between the bachelor's and the
master's period in between.
So I was twenty three,twenty-four.
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (20:37):
Because the question I was gonna ask you is what did
your parents think of that?
Were they supportive of that?
Did you get pushback from them?
But you were in your twenties asopposed to, you know, sometimes
people go do a year abroad whenthey're 16 or 17, yeah, that
type of thing.
So all right.
But what did your so yourparents were they supportive of
of you going to Togo?
SPEAKER_00 (20:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um and and they enjoyed it verymuch.
There's always a little tension,I think.
SPEAKER_03 (21:02):
Wait, wait, they enjoyed it.
They enjoyed you not being inthe house, they weren't with
you, were they?
SPEAKER_00 (21:07):
I mean, what do you I already had left the house
already earlier?
SPEAKER_03 (21:11):
That's uh well that's you we won't talk about
that.
But yeah, okay, all right, very,very cool.
And what was your what was yourimpression?
Like what what was that like foryou?
SPEAKER_00 (21:19):
Energy is the first word that pops up.
Okay.
Language barrier, a formerFrench colony, and I'd I had
French in my high school, but Iof course didn't learn how to
speak.
SPEAKER_03 (21:33):
Yep, I can realize I I took French in high school as
well, and I remember when I wentto France, I was like, oh, I was
uh sixteen, seventeen, and itwas like, oh, this is gonna be
amazing, and I quickly realizedYeah Yeah, they weren't
impressive.
SPEAKER_00 (21:46):
And and and the heat.
I lost uh I remember losing uhten kilos, and that's where my
parents actually got a littleworried.
Okay.
Uh in the first few weeksbecause of sweating uh in the
night as well.
But yeah.
Wow.
SPEAKER_03 (21:58):
And what were you doing there?
What was like your your purpose,your role, or what was your
daily, you know, what were youwhat was going on?
SPEAKER_00 (22:06):
Yeah, it was part of an international student's
organization called Isaac.
So I was helping students todevelop uh business plans.
SPEAKER_03 (22:15):
These are local, you were helping local students
develop business plans or othertravelers?
What do you mean?
SPEAKER_00 (22:21):
No, I exactly uh students from the University of
Lomay, the capital there, uhstudents in entrepreneurship.
SPEAKER_03 (22:28):
So, Dan, while you were in Togo, was there a moment
that you remember thinking,yeah, I'm definitely gonna be
coming back to Africa, I'm gonnabe living in Africa, or had that
even crossed your mind at thatmoment?
SPEAKER_00 (22:40):
No, actually it didn't.
Uh not yet until that year of2012 I mentioned earlier.
SPEAKER_03 (22:47):
Okay.
What happened at well, before weget to 2012, anything happened
between Togo and 2012 that youthink was a big influence?
SPEAKER_00 (22:55):
Or should we just jump right to 2012?
Let's jump to 2012.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (22:59):
All right, cool.
I know you want to.
Tell me about 2012.
SPEAKER_00 (23:03):
Yeah, so I was I was I was working at a consultancy
company for three years by then.
I remember standing in theelevator together with the CEO,
big company, 1200 people.
I can't exactly remember what weshared, but there was a moment
where I felt like this doesn'tconnect.
(23:24):
And at the same time, I washappy in my job.
I had survived some huge layoffafter the economic crisis, those
years after.
I was working together with alot of different consultants,
seniors, so I could learn a lot.
So satisfied, but uh feelinginside that there was something
more meaningful, meaningful tochase in life.
SPEAKER_03 (23:46):
So something happened on the elevator, and
you don't want you don't want togo into details.
No.
But you remember what it was,but we don't need to talk about
that.
Well sh I get that.
I I was working for a companythat had gone through, I'm not
gonna share too many detailseither, but I you know I've gone
through some difficult times,and I remember something that a
(24:07):
very senior leader in thecompany said about layoffs.
Right.
It was like, okay, this justdoesn't something doesn't feel
right.
I knew I knew a lot of thepeople that were laid off.
And yeah, it's uh it can be atough thing.
All right, so you decided thisis not my place.
So what how did what whatactions did you take?
What did that look like?
SPEAKER_00 (24:28):
Yeah, I knew that I wanted to do something with
youth and sports.
So I had experienced myself inmy youth how it helped me uh as
a shy boy from a remote area inthe Netherlands to connect with
new people, to develop mytalents, but also to develop
other skills that come alongwith it.
Yeah, so I started sharing withpeople in my hometown by then,
(24:50):
Utrecht, and actually exploring,talking to a lot of people and
developing an idea for sportsfor development projects.
I didn't know by then exactlywhere that would be, and and
certainly not how, but I wasjust drive.
SPEAKER_03 (25:07):
Did you get people because what I what it sounds
like is I was successful doingwell in the corporate world, and
now I'm starting to talk about,you know, I think my purpose is
to develop uh younger kids insports, and and maybe I'll walk
away from this paycheck and gostart something somewhere.
Did you get pushback or peoplethinking you were crazy?
(25:29):
Or what was what was that like?
SPEAKER_00 (25:32):
I think many uh I was in a group of young
professionals and in quiteintense training program and
good colleagues, colleaguesactually.
Um and I yeah, I think quite bythen quite many of them later
that changed, were in that redrace that I consciously tried to
(25:52):
escape.
It was a mix.
Some people understood it and uhgave me new connections in that
direction, and others probablystill don't understand.
SPEAKER_03 (26:04):
I'm sure there's a handful that did not understand
at the time, but this was awhile ago, and now they've
probably experienced more inlife, and they're looking at you
like Dan man, you're you're thesmart guy.
Look at you living the dream.
But yeah, all right.
Okay.
So you started, so anyway, youstarted asking around, creating,
you know, figuring out how youwere gonna do that.
(26:25):
How long did it take?
What just tell me more aboutthat?
What did that progression looklike?
SPEAKER_00 (26:31):
Yeah, actually, there were two parallel
processes there.
And the two years before I uhdecided to quit my job is
exploring what I've just sharedand and developing the idea.
And and the other bigger one isto collect the courage to uh
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:49):
So how long did it take you to collect the courage
to jump?
SPEAKER_00 (26:53):
That's about two years.
SPEAKER_03 (26:55):
Okay.
What what advice do you giveyour younger self if you could
go back and look at Dan whenhe's one month into that
two-year process?
What advice would you have givenhim?
SPEAKER_00 (27:07):
Think about how to sustain yourself financially in
the first years or after makingthe jump.
SPEAKER_03 (27:13):
Okay.
But but presumably that's whatyou were thinking at the time,
is and that might be part of whyit took two years was how am I
gonna sustain?
So it sounds like you werealready thinking about that.
unknown (27:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:29):
It's of course a bit uh double, because on the other
hand, would I have uh would Ihave ever jumped when I knew uh
it would become so challengingas well in the first years?
So uh yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:42):
Yeah, I asked someone a similar question not
too long ago and she responded,I you know, I said, What would
you tell your younger self whenyou were um getting when you had
this idea of your start ofstarting your business?
And she literally just said, uh,get a job.
Yeah.
Sounds like that's my family'stold me that a few times as well
as I've uh endeavored, you know,to to start new things.
SPEAKER_02 (28:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (28:05):
All right, I get that.
Was there but looking back, isthere any part of you that just
wished you would have gonequicker and just said, screw it,
I'm not gonna wait until I havefinancial sustainability?
Do you feel like you waited toolong, I guess, is what I'm
asking.
Do you wish you would havejumped quicker?
SPEAKER_00 (28:22):
Not not really.
SPEAKER_03 (28:25):
Or slower.
Do you think do you wish youwould have jumped slower?
Good question.
SPEAKER_00 (28:29):
No, that life unfolds in a certain way, and it
comes along with no, that's howI've experienced it and um yeah,
staying with so easy to lookback and say, Well, you know, I
coulda, shoulda, woulda.
SPEAKER_03 (28:41):
Whatever.
We did, we did what we did.
Yeah.
All right.
So were you were there people inyour life that were seriously
impacted by you?
I'm this is my way of askingyou, were you in a relationship?
Was there somebody in your lifethat was, you know, supporting
this decision or fightingagainst it, or what was going on
personally?
SPEAKER_01 (29:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (29:02):
On that level.
SPEAKER_00 (29:04):
I wasn't in a serious relationship by then.
That makes it easier.
Makes it definitely easier.
SPEAKER_03 (29:10):
Yeah.
It's a little different when yougot a wife and two kids, and
you're saying I want to go coachkids to play soccer and running.
All right.
Yeah.
Okay.
So so what what did you do whenyou jumped?
Tell tell me what that was whatthat was like and and what did
you actually do?
What did jumping look like toyou?
SPEAKER_00 (29:28):
Yeah, the the jump was a little bit less rough, I
can say.
Smooth, actually, because of anold friend from high school who
was organizing a program for newsocial entrepreneurs in Kampala,
the capital of Uganda.
SPEAKER_03 (29:41):
Ah, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (29:42):
And that was a one-month program that opened a
lot of doors.
And um, yeah, there was thisteam setting where we were
helping each other to developour project ideas.
SPEAKER_03 (29:52):
So yeah, that's And were these all mostly Europeans
or were there Ugandans there aswell?
SPEAKER_00 (29:57):
Yeah, mixed 50-50 uh Europeans, Dutch people
actually, with with Ugandansfrom the capital.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (30:05):
Was there was there something that happened in that
month that very clearly led toum what you're doing now?
SPEAKER_00 (30:13):
Yeah, a opportunity with a sports university near
Kampala to work as a uh linkingpin between university and
community sports coaches toorganize events for youth, to to
develop training programs forfor the coaches.
Yeah, and that that gave mereally the opportunity to also
uh live in the in the communityand yeah in this case a student
(30:38):
community which has its specificuh characteristics.
Yeah.
Yeah, that that's that's where Iactually met a sports science
student from Kapchoa.
So eventually he took me to hishome area, highly passionate
about the sports potential andthe beauty of his place, um and
(30:59):
the rest is history.
SPEAKER_03 (31:01):
Was was this opportun uh none of my business,
but I I ask questions, that'swhat I do.
Yeah, was this kind of a paidopportunity, or was this just
getting paid by making a lot ofconnections and and uh maybe the
cost of living was low?
I don't know.
What what was that?
SPEAKER_00 (31:18):
It was it was a pro bono uh arrangement.
Yeah, that's what I thought.
Free accommodation and freemeals.
Well, that's and and a driverand transport.
That was actually uh yeah, ohyeah, uh good other benefit.
SPEAKER_01 (31:33):
Very cool.
So then what?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (31:38):
Well, I was just saying, so then so you got up
there, you're kind of doing allthis pro bono is the word you
used.
How did you end up turning thatinto the business now with you
know Homer Friends guest houseand and community experiences?
How did how did you take it?
Because like when you got there,did you just know this is the
place?
And uh here and and start this?
(31:59):
No, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (32:00):
I first stayed in a hotel in Kapchoa town for five,
six months in total.
I was still traveling back andforth between Kampala, where I
had another, again, not a fullybut maybe semi-paid job.
And yeah, after a while I uh sawmy savings money uh declining,
and I was looking for a house torent for me to sleep and to eat,
(32:25):
but also to have meetings withour community sports coaches
because we had started thatyouth project by then.
And that was uh on a on a pieceof land with old fans and a few
cows, chicken maybe, and and uhyeah, one house.
Where I stayed for about oneyear until I shared with the
owner of the place, who is nowmy business partner.
(32:46):
Um, and um yeah, he he liked mymy business plan for a place
where sports lovers would meetand learn from each other,
inspire each other.
He had the money and I had theconnections and the ideas.
And that turned out to be amatch, and it's still a match up
to today.
SPEAKER_03 (33:05):
All right, so that property that you're just
talking about is where the guesthouse is now.
Exactly.
I take it.
I don't want to Okay.
All right.
What has changed?
Uh like your idea of a placewhere sports lovers can come
together and community and allthat stuff.
Has that changed, or do youstill feel like that's kind of
what you're doing?
SPEAKER_00 (33:24):
Yeah, that's what we are doing.
Yeah.
Maybe not on a daily basisbecause the types of guests we
get, it it varies.
But there are a lot of momentswhere we uh yeah even have these
interactions between um uh therunning champions from our small
community, and theyspontaneously meet with uh with
(33:44):
their fans.
Yeah, those are uh moments whereuh it can just be uh selfie, but
sometimes there's a little bitmore of interaction and there's
a collaboration coming out ofit.
SPEAKER_03 (33:56):
It sounds like and maybe you're like duh, Jason.
I've tried to explain this, butit sounds like a mix between a
community center and a uhhospitality, tourism.
It's like an interesting mix ofthings, which I'm sure is
exactly what you're trying totell me, right?
SPEAKER_00 (34:12):
Yeah, and also not a typical lodge in the sense that
there's a mix of uh the guestsfrom from the town, from the
villages around, and uhinternational.
SPEAKER_03 (34:22):
Yeah.
That's that's very cool.
Do you do you feel like yourguests kind of get that before
they show up, or is it just likethey don't know what they don't
know, and then they get thereand they realize that this is a
whole different thing than whatthey expected, or what are your
thoughts?
SPEAKER_00 (34:37):
You were referring back to meeting these.
SPEAKER_03 (34:40):
Well, I'm just talking about your your guests,
like the the people that comeand stay with you, maybe from
Europe or the US.
Yeah, do they kind of alreadyget this interesting mix of
community center and hospitalityand activity base?
Or do they just kind of walkinto it blind and then they get
there and like, oh wow, this isnot what I expected.
(35:01):
I mean, what's your experiencewith that?
SPEAKER_00 (35:02):
Yeah, it's it's it's a real mix.
So we do have people even cometo stay for longer and they uh
have already planned with us toengage with the community and to
to book different experiences,and sometimes we call them
impact volunteers, so that's forlonger periods, and people
really come to to train ourguides, for example, on a
specific topic.
(35:23):
And then there's also a wholebunch of guests who um yeah
don't have uh who may havebooked via two operator, and
there's already an itinerary anduh activities planned to the
waterfalls.
Yeah, then then it then it uhturns out to be a surprise to
them.
Or that that that link is notbeing made because we know yeah,
(35:46):
we have travelers who go fasterand travelers who go slower.
SPEAKER_03 (35:51):
All right, very cool.
What was the in the beginning,what was the hardest part?
I mean, well, you mentioned yourdwindling savings, I get that.
But maybe as far as justculturally or just being in a
place, you know, pretty remote.
I mean, what was what were thebiggest challenges for you
either personally, emotionally,business-wise?
SPEAKER_00 (36:12):
Yeah, two things spring into mind expectation
levels and collaboration.
SPEAKER_03 (36:19):
Okay, when you say expectation levels, are you
talking about your expectationlevels?
SPEAKER_00 (36:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, I remember a metaphorbeing used by a colleague in an
online leadership training in2015.
I was explaining my plans in theearly stages, and he described a
situation with two horses, Danin the middle, trying to keep
them both on track.
But one horse was much fasterthan the other.
(36:44):
So, yeah, I I as much as I didmy research and I took five
months to learn the language, toconnect with the people in the
community where we started theyouth project.
I had this idea about a sportfor development project.
And yeah, for example, weintroduced many sports, but
after a few months, because ofthe strong running culture,
everyone was back into thelong-distance running.
(37:09):
So I had to learn to slow downum and to tap uh more into the
existing strength of thecommunity in the running, in the
in the lifestyle, in the health,uh healthy lifestyle of the
place.
SPEAKER_03 (37:24):
It's I'm sure I'm sure you you've thought this
out, and I'm not surprised youwhen I say this, but what I just
hear is it's a very interestingthing because we're talking
about speed.
You're saying, I need to slowdown, and the almost the same
sentence that you're saying theyjust want to run.
(37:45):
It's like, oh that'sinteresting, because because if
we just set aside the runningpart, you know, culturally, I
think, okay, you're from kind ofyou know, you're uh European
European guy, um, and an Africannation where probably the pace
of life and just develop andjust the way things go, I would
imagine, is very different.
(38:05):
So I can see when you say, well,I need to slow down, but then
you're talking about they liketo run a lot.
Yeah.
It's it's I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (38:11):
It's a paradox, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (38:13):
Yeah, it's uh it's kind of anyway.
All right.
So that was a big one, was justyour maybe your expectations of
okay, we can get this buildingproject done.
It should only take us threemonths, right?
I'm just guessing.
But then the reality of it isthat things don't work that way.
I've I've lived in Latin Americalong enough.
We have similar things going onhere, and I and I managed to
(38:35):
lodge in Belize, and the thestaff there were always on a way
different time schedule than Iwas on.
It was really hard to adapt tothat.
But I also respected that aboutthem.
It was part of what I lovedabout the the culture, and it
was like, no, this is what'smore important right now.
Yeah, we're gonna spend sometime talking and BSing and doing
(38:55):
something interesting instead ofyou know go work on the tractor
to get fixed or whatever, youknow.
So yeah, all right, very cool.
Did you have other Europeansaround you in the beginning at
all?
Or did did you struggle withisolation, or was that a
challenge?
SPEAKER_00 (39:11):
Yeah, the first period of the youth uh sports
project, there were no other ummazungus, as we call them in
East Africa, foreigners around.
And actually, how the guesthouse started was also with the
second mozungu in the area, thecoach of several of the running
champions, fellow Dutch, whocame uh in 2017 to build a team
(39:34):
around the guy I've alreadymentioned, Joshua Cheptegay, and
who stayed.
Remember, there was one buildingat the start, two under one
roof, two family houses.
He was staying next door for twoyears before he found his own
place.
SPEAKER_03 (39:48):
Okay.
Was that I mean you have apersonal relationship with it?
We don't need to go into toomany details, but for you, just
was it was it exciting to haveanother you said mazungo?
That's what's the word?
Yeah, uh mazungu.
Mazungu, okay.
Was that it was that exciting?
I think it would be for mesometimes.
SPEAKER_00 (40:06):
Yeah, definitely, to to to share your inspiration and
your challenges.
Um the challenges can also bethat much that um uh yeah, it
doesn't always help, right?
One way or the uh or the other,you have to find your way to to
to build your collaboration inthe community.
SPEAKER_03 (40:26):
Do you remember a moment when you felt like you'd
been there long enough that thecommunity started to see you as
just a regular staple of thecommunity as opposed to an
outsider?
SPEAKER_00 (40:37):
To a certain extent.
SPEAKER_03 (40:39):
Or maybe that hasn't happened.
I don't know.
You tell me.
SPEAKER_00 (40:42):
I don't know what it's like living there.
Never fully, for sure.
And that comes back toexpectation levels, what I've
mentioned before, that um yeah,as a Mizungu, you are a walking
wallet, and some of my communitysports coaches thought that
there was a huge head office inthe Netherlands be behind our
initiative, yet there were onlytwo friends who voluntarily
(41:07):
helped in their free time, maybeone hour a week, to at least get
a few donations in to supportit.
SPEAKER_01 (41:14):
Yeah.
So yeah, that yeah.
What's the biggest struggle now?
SPEAKER_00 (41:20):
I have to think about that because actually,
also after a few years,obviously around COVID and the
and a few years after, yeah, itwas also staying with a lot of
discomfort in the sense of ityeah, we are not in the area
that naturally gets uh a hugeflow of tourists, so it is
tight.
But we are now in a period wherethings I'm really proud that
we've we've taken our time tobuild things slow but sure,
(41:44):
which is uh which I came tobelieve it it it it it it might
be the only way that works in inthe context, in rural context.
So it's hard to think of achallenge right now.
SPEAKER_03 (41:55):
If I'm curious if if you had access to a pretty good
marketing budget and you wantedto bring more people into your
community, would your goal be toget more people to visit Uganda,
or would it be to get a biggerpercentage of the people already
visiting Uganda to your area?
(42:15):
I know that they both would movethe needle, but what do you
think?
Like if you could only chooseone, we're gonna promote Uganda
or we're gonna promote the areawhere we're at, what do you
think would move the needle themost?
SPEAKER_00 (42:27):
Yeah, uh promote destination Kapchoa um linked to
that northeastern loop Imentioned before.
And we see the the interest isis is growing also among
international tool operators.
So yeah, that is also maybe whyI can't come up with that
challenge right away.
There's kind of a flow in in inyeah, we've also become more
(42:48):
aware maybe of our strength, andof course the network, the warm
network has been growing.
Our guides play a very crucialrole here, so I see a lot of
confidence, uh bigger confidencethan compared with a with a few
years ago in the way theyconnect and um yeah, also do
their part of the marketing ofthe destination.
SPEAKER_03 (43:07):
So yeah, we we are in a in a good is is being a
guide in that area is that afairly high social status job, I
would guess.
But I don't know.
I mean, yeah, your guides, likewhen your guides are downtown
and and you know, people arelike, oh, he's a guide, he's you
know, maybe they dress a littledifferently.
(43:28):
I remember when I was in Belize,for example, our guides would at
the end of the week they'd geton the boat to go back to town.
And yeah, these guys are very,very humble looking around the
lodge and working with theirclients, but then when they get
on the boat to go back to town,they've got the gold chain on
and the Nike sneakers.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Right.
Because they know that when theyget back to the dock, there's
gonna be people around to seethem, and they're like, Oh,
(43:49):
you're a you're a fishing guide,so you, you know, and so I was
just curious if it's similar inyour community.
SPEAKER_00 (43:54):
Yeah, that's similar, pretty high status, but
still below the the thechampions.
SPEAKER_03 (43:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ooh, yeah, I bet, because you'vegot a a culture of very
well-known um athletes there.
SPEAKER_02 (44:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (44:07):
That's interesting.
Hmm.
Very, very interesting.
You mentioned earlier somethingkind of about just the kind of
the infrastructure was part ofwhy there's not so much, you
know, tourism there.
Is that still a concern?
I mean, if you could wave amagic wand and and put in a
superhighway leading right intothe neighborhood or or an
airport or something like that.
SPEAKER_02 (44:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (44:29):
Is there anything like that that would instantly
solve the um not solve aproblem, but just bring more
tourists in?
unknown (44:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (44:36):
And would you even want those tourists?
SPEAKER_00 (44:39):
Yeah, that the that's a good question.
I wouldn't know the full uhstraight answer to that, because
I would say an airport, but doesit then bring in the type of
tourists that really want toconnect with the community?
Yeah, that's a question.
It may depend.
The highways is really apositive development.
Over the last five years we havebeen connected to the canyon
border, um uh behind KapchoaTown.
(45:04):
There's a new highway, there'seven solar streetlights in the
night.
It's it's a complete uhtransformation of the of the of
the surroundings of the town inthe town.
So I I noticed that it alsohelps um our stakeholders and
guides to yeah, to be confidentand and they're really happy
about it.
And it's kind of it has been avery isolated area, not much
(45:27):
recognized in the past.
So I guess it has to do withrecognition as well.
SPEAKER_03 (45:32):
You mentioned earlier, I think at a map, but I
think you said you're fairlyclose to the Sudan border as
well.
SPEAKER_00 (45:40):
No, not really.
That's the Kidepo National ParkI mentioned, but uh we are close
to the Kenyan border, 80kilometers from the Kenyan
border.
SPEAKER_03 (45:48):
Okay.
The reason I brought that up isthere's a few countries or words
that that trigger people aroundsafety concerns and issues.
And so what I the question Ijust asked you is very probably
a typical question, maybe forpeople that like Africa.
Well, what do you know aboutAfrica?
They think about things that arenot so pleasant and places that
(46:12):
they probably should not go.
So let's just discuss that for aminute.
Let's discuss attitudes aboutAfrica, let's discuss safety in
Uganda and what do you I guessthe question is, what do you
think are the biggestmisconceptions that you would
that you would want to sharewith people?
SPEAKER_00 (46:29):
Yeah, safety, you've mentioned it first.
Uganda is a very welcomingcountry.
The people are laid back andfriendly.
So it's really easy to hire acar and to travel around.
Anytime there's an issue withyour car, you will you will get
help.
Mechanics uh jump up fromnowhere.
SPEAKER_03 (46:45):
Let me let me just I want to make sure I'm clear.
I also want to make sure ourlisteners, because when you say
hire a car, that maybe soundsdifferent to some some people we
might say rent a car, and then Imight say hire a driver.
So I just want to be real clearon what you're saying.
You're saying hire a car,meaning you could show up, rent
a car, and drive yourselfaround.
SPEAKER_00 (47:04):
Yeah, that happens quite a lot.
Maybe 30 to 40 percent of ourguests do that.
SPEAKER_03 (47:11):
I'm not I'm not gonna ask about your US guest.
I think I already know theanswer.
But that's why we're having thisconversation.
Because, you know, is yeah, whatexpectations we talked about
expectations.
So you can go there, rent a car,presumably book rooms whether
they're staying with you, ormaybe just book hotel rooms and
motels and places to stay.
(47:33):
And you said and you said thatif your car breaks down, a bunch
of mechanics will show up.
Is it I wonder if you can it'sanother maybe it's just because
I spent so much time in Belizedealing with the locals.
In Belize, I noticed that likepretty much everybody could do
anything.
Right.
Yeah.
Whether they could really do itor not.
Yeah, but but if you know Iwould show up at the boat ramp,
(47:55):
you know, when I'd go into thecity and people would say, Uh,
you know, Mr.
Jason, do you have a job for me?
And I say, Well, I don't know,what do you what do you do?
Well, what do you need?
Yeah.
If I said I need a generatormechanic, yep, I'm a generator
mechanic.
If I said I need a boat captain,I'm a boat captain.
If I said I need a dive master,I I can do that.
SPEAKER_00 (48:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So yeah, yeah.
I recognize that question fromuh from applicants.
Uh, open applic uh uh peoplecall me the open application,
that is the common thing theysay.
SPEAKER_03 (48:22):
Yeah, I can do whatever you need, which it's
great.
I love that enthusiasm.
And it's you know, it's a it'sactually a really a smart
approach in life.
Yeah.
As opposed to, you know, justsitting around, well, I only
know how to do this one thing,so I'm just that I am a
carpenter, and that's all I do,and that's all I know.
(48:42):
And there's no carpentry jobsright now, so I'm just gonna sit
around and wait for a carpentryjob.
Yeah, as opposed to maybe justyou know convince somebody that
I'm a car mechanic.
Yeah, right.
Yeah, to the needs.
It's an important, importantskill to have.
Okay, so are there places inUganda?
I'll just direct question.
Are there places in Uganda thatvisitors really have no business
(49:05):
going to?
At the moment?
I know that's a tough question.
No.
And I could edit this out laterif you if you don't want to, but
you know what I mean.
SPEAKER_00 (49:14):
No, there are no no go areas at the moment, I would
let me think.
There has been a uh a littlesecurity issue along the
Congolese border, but it's sometime back.
But it's it's really in thewestern, far western part of the
country.
But as far as I can oversee,that has been fully brought back
to uh to to a stable situation.
(49:35):
People are freely traveling thecountry, actually.
SPEAKER_03 (49:37):
Have you had conversations?
I suspect you have hadconversations with people that
will say things like, Oh, Iheard about something.
I don't really I don't want toname any countries, but yeah, I
heard something about something.
So we're holding off on ourplans to go to Africa, and
you're like, that's fourthousand miles away.
Yeah.
(49:57):
They just think of Africa asthis one country, and anything
that's going on in WesternAfrica must be impacting what's
going on in Eastern Africa, andso on and so forth.
Um, I'm sure that comes up alot.
What's your what's your typicalresponse?
SPEAKER_00 (50:13):
Yeah, I used to Africa's a big place.
I used to passionately thenstart talking about our area and
how beautiful it is, but laterI've learned that it's that
doesn't necessarily convincethem.
So I guess over time I learned alittle bit more to um yeah, then
to really, really explain thereal situation on the ground.
Yeah, maybe also connect them totravelers who've been here
(50:34):
already, or to use that as ashowcase, an example.
And and also to that's actuallysomething we are working on at
the moment to um still figuringout how to do it, but to have
some FAQ answers on our websitethat tackles some of these early
concerns.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (50:51):
I wonder, I think somebody that books a trip like
actually takes the initiative toinitiate something and then gets
nervous because of they see anews report or something like
that.
That's one thing.
I think that that type oftraveler is maybe worthwhile to
help them, you know, learn andand ease their concerns.
(51:14):
But I suspect like if you go toa trade show, let's say you go
to Berlin, a trade show inBerlin, and there's and you run
into people and and you justhappen to mention you do this
thing in Uganda and they'relike, oh, Africa is really
dangerous.
It's probably yeah, you probablyI'm just curious.
Have you like just got to thepoint where there's no point in
me trying to get to even takethe time to share with them
(51:39):
anything?
It's like they've already madethat decision.
And I I don't know where I'mgoing with this, other than I
remember I had when I worked atum I was running a big travel
business inside of anotherbusiness, and an employee of
that company came to me one dayand said, Jason, we should we
really need to set up more tripslike to Europe for people that
(52:00):
don't like to travel or they'reafraid.
You know, they're like peoplebecause like my wife, I want to
take my wife to Europe, butshe's afraid of this and afraid
of that, and uh just afraid ofeverything.
And we should set up trips forpeople like that.
SPEAKER_00 (52:12):
I actually I have to think now of a of a family
member who said when I left theNetherlands, I won't specify the
person any further, but um whatwhat does Dan have to do in Dark
Africa?
What sense is there in thisdecision?
SPEAKER_03 (52:27):
For a person that already believes that way, it's
I I don't know how much you cando to to influence them.
You can say, Oh, you should talkto so-and-so, you should talk to
so-and-so, you should talk, butthey're already kind of, but
it's like that in everything inlife.
I mean, it's politics and so somany different things.
I mean, I remember when Istarted traveling full-time, you
know, I started my my voyage inColombia, and I'm in Colombia
(52:50):
now.
I I haven't been here the wholetime, but um, yeah, I remember
when I left, I had familymembers that are like, why on
earth would you want to gothere?
And yeah, and even to this day,you know, there was something
happened here in Colombia a fewweeks ago, and I got messages
from people back home.
And I and they're like, Oh, iseverything okay?
And I'm like, What are youtalking about?
I didn't even like make theconnection, I kind of saw the
(53:12):
news report, but it's like,yeah, whatever.
And they're like, Oh, I I hearthe country's in chaos and
da-da-da-da-da, and this andthat.
And I was like, I literallydidn't know.
I had to go on my phone and lookup like what are they even
talking about?
But anyway, yeah, it's um, it'sit's a challenge.
We've discussed a bunch ofthings, we've covered quite a
few topics.
(53:33):
We got all the way back to whenyou were six watching a
slideshow, which is really coolbecause actually, you know, I
have some memories when I waspretty young where I saw some
slideshows that were prettyinfluential in my life as well.
And uh so I appreciate yousharing that because it kind of
triggered a memory for me aswell.
Okay.
So that's uh that's very cool.
Um, but Dan, what did we notdiscuss, or what do you wish
(53:56):
that I would have asked you uhbefore we wrap up?
I just wanted to give you achance to share anything you'd
like with our listeners thatmaybe we missed over or glossed
over.
SPEAKER_02 (54:05):
Okay, all right, please thinking.
No, I I there's no question.
I think we got it, huh?
SPEAKER_00 (54:13):
Well done.
Job well done.
SPEAKER_03 (54:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (54:15):
Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_03 (54:16):
Well, yeah, as soon as I push the stop record
button, then something's gonnacome to your head.
Yeah, that's okay.
It just means we have to comeback and do it again later.
No problem.
SPEAKER_00 (54:24):
If we would have another hour, but then we have
to plan another session.
I would I would love to divedeeper into how to build a team
and um a human resource part ofuh of growing a social
enterprise in a remote area.
But um yeah, it's it's not easy.
Can't cover everything.
SPEAKER_03 (54:42):
No, it's it's not easy, and you've developed a sk
and I know because I've beenaround long enough, um, is that
you've developed a skill thatvery few people ever do.
You know, to go into anotherculture and build a team and
build an enterprise that'scommunity focused, that's not
just a business, but is alsogiving back and involving
people, that's a that's that's ahuge thing.
(55:05):
Do you have any any new newprojects that you're thinking
about you want to mention, or isthat still that in the future to
be seen?
SPEAKER_00 (55:13):
Yeah, the focus is actually a lot on um telling the
story of what we've built andthe uniqueness of our
destination.
Here back in the Netlands, sowhat's was supposed to become a
family and friends visit at themoment is more of a a work.
Um it's still a holiday becauseyeah, talking about your passion
is not really work, right?
(55:34):
Yeah, yeah.
And in line with that yeah,reaching out to magazines,
outdoor travel magazines,running adventure magazines.
That's what I'm actually thismorning.
I was working on an articleabout the secrets behind the
running success in Kopchoa andum yeah, the real roots of the
(55:54):
champions, and how nature,community, um, and the running
culture are connected there.
So yeah, I guess it's just alsoum yeah, believing in the
uniqueness and then and andfollowing up on that and and
sharing that story more andmore.
That's the flow uh we are in atthe moment.
SPEAKER_03 (56:15):
And that's why we're here.
So thank you so much, Dan.
Thanks for coming and sharingyour story, the story of Home of
Friends.
I feel like I want to say homeof friends, and but then I feel
like should I say the wholething?
Or but you know what?
Home of Friends, guest house andcommunity experiences, which is
a little bit of a mouthful, butI appreciate that because it
says so much.
I love the you know, home offriends is uh it's just pretty
(56:38):
cool.
I like that.
I mean, it's like you just youfeel like you've made friends
before you even get there.
So yeah, yeah, yeah.
I look forward to uh hopefullyvisiting you someday and that
would be great, uh Jason.
SPEAKER_00 (56:48):
Yeah.
unknown (56:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (56:50):
Dan, thank you so much.
I appreciate your sharing yourtime and look forward to
chatting with you again soon.
SPEAKER_00 (56:55):
Thank you very much, uh Jason.
All right.
SPEAKER_03 (56:57):
Okay, Dan.
SPEAKER_00 (56:58):
Bye.
Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of
the Big World Made Small podcastfor the Adventure Traveler.
So happy to have each and everyone of you back here today.
And I'm also super excited.
We've got a fascinating guestfor you today.
His name is Dan Oxener.
He's the co-founder of HamaFriends Guest House and
Community Experiences in Uganda.
Dan, welcome to the show.
Happy to have you here.
SPEAKER_00 (01:26):
Thank you, uh Jason.
Great to be here.
SPEAKER_03 (01:29):
We're going to have a fascinating conversation.
We spoke a few weeks ago.
I think you were actually inUganda when we spoke, and now
you're visiting family.
Where are you right now?
SPEAKER_00 (01:38):
I'm right now in the east of the Netherlands.
Not far from the German border,and that's where I grew up and
uh lived up to uh up to up to 18years of age.
SPEAKER_03 (01:50):
We're gonna get really deep into how you got
from I was gonna say where youwhere you were, but I guess
where you are right now to whereyou are in life, which obviously
is gonna involve discussions ofUganda and all that stuff.
Let's do this before we get toodeep into that.
Let's give our listeners kind ofthe, I don't know, 60 seconds,
we can go as long as we want,but maybe the 60-second elevator
(02:12):
pitch on what is home of friendsguest house and community
experiences?
What do you guys what do youguys do?
How would you describe that topeople?
SPEAKER_00 (02:21):
Yeah, thank you.
That's uh that's a good questionto start with.
Uh Home of Friends uh guesthouse um and community
experiences is a hub forcommunity-based uh adventure
travel on the slopes of uhMountain Elgin uh in the eastern
again I landed also in theeastern part of Uganda.
(02:42):
Um on the eastern uh uh part ofin the eastern part of Uganda
and we offer a wide variety ofum yeah adventure experiences,
hiking, biking, running.
Um and we've also developedcultural experiences over the
over the years.
Sometimes these are separateactivities and sometimes they
(03:05):
are uh blended together.
Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (03:09):
What do you mean by it when you say sometimes
they're separate activities andthen sometimes they're blended
together?
Help me get a betterunderstanding of what you're
saying.
SPEAKER_00 (03:16):
Yeah, I was actually meaning uh, for example, our
Mosabishek trail that's a two orthree-day trekking through the
remote highlands of Mount Elgin.
That's where um the adventuretraveler both experiences the
incredible nature, thewaterfalls, the viewpoints, the
farmlands, um, and alsoexperiences the culture of an
(03:38):
indigenous community.
For example, through bamboobasket weaving with a with a
woman in that village, orlearning how to farm or how to
make a honey wine, which ispopular in that area.
SPEAKER_03 (03:51):
Okay, very, very cool.
I mean, obviously, the the guesthouse part was pretty easy, and
I want to expand on that alittle bit, and then we'll
discuss kind of how it all gothow it all came about.
But so what I hear you saying iswe've got a cool guest house,
people come stay with us, andthen we go do all these
different types of activitiesand adventures that you were
(04:12):
just discussing.
Is that pretty much summarizeit?
That that's uh probablyoversimplifies it.
I get that.
Definitely oversimplifies it,I'm sure.
Do do all of your guests stay atthe guest house?
I mean, I guess I guess thequestion is if somebody's in the
area staying at another place,do you set up tours for them as
well?
Or is it uh kind of a packagedeal where you gotta, you know,
(04:34):
you stay at the guest house andwe go do these other activities?
How does that work?
SPEAKER_00 (04:37):
Yeah, in 80% of the cases, our guests stay in our
rooms.
And actually, we we are gettingmore inquiries from from
travelers who may be staying inthe nearby um CP Falls area that
is a known hotspot for fortourism, and who may want to
book one of our communityexperiences.
So, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (04:56):
Okay, very cool.
And where are most of yourguests from?
SPEAKER_00 (05:00):
Majority from Northwestern Europe.
And then also visitors fromSouth America, United States,
several countries in Asia,sometimes Australia, um, and
expats from the from the capitalin Uganda, Kampala, or the the
(05:20):
the source of the river now,Jinja?
Yeah, so it's a wide uh range ofuh of of backgrounds of our
guests.
SPEAKER_03 (05:29):
Let's um I guess because I'm more familiar with
maybe the US market, the typicalUS guest that comes to Uganda,
what is the major draw?
And I'm I I'm I'm guessing whatyou might say, but what do
people in the US think aboutUganda when they think, I want
to go to Uganda to do what?
SPEAKER_00 (05:47):
Yeah, that that's 100% gorillas.
SPEAKER_03 (05:49):
So um I'm happy you said that because that's exactly
what I was thinking.
SPEAKER_02 (05:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (05:54):
Okay, do the your is it that way for people from
Australia, northwestern Europe,as well.
I mean, you mentioned severalother places.
Is that pretty consistent acrossthe board that that's what
people think they should go toUganda for?
SPEAKER_00 (06:09):
Yeah, to a slightly lesser extent for those uh
countries.
I I I've learned that I'velearned that the definition of
of adventure travel for the forthe US uh visitors um yeah is
often uh uh going from park topark and from gorilla to
chimpanzee and being drivenaround.
(06:31):
And the definition uh in othercountries is sometimes a little
bit more off the beaten track,maybe sometimes a self-drive,
and that automatically meansthat more people will also come
to the remote area that we arein and the undiscovered east and
northern east of Uganda.
SPEAKER_03 (06:48):
Do you are you willing to have a philosophical
conversation for what that, whythat is, that the US market is
different?
SPEAKER_00 (06:55):
Let's skip that part, uh Jason.
SPEAKER_03 (06:56):
Let's skip that.
Okay.
You're a smart man.
Well, it is interesting.
I mean, I have some of my owntheories, but I definitely I'll
I'll touch on that.
I think um Europeans are veryfortunate in the sense that they
grow up in a much moremulticultural um environment.
So going to a different countryor a place where they speak
different languages, I think isjust generally more comfortable
(07:17):
um for a lot of a lot ofEuropeans.
And then I often think of likeAustralians and and Kiwis, they
I think they all leave at somepoint in their life and go
travel.
Yeah, it's just because they'reso isolated.
Where in the US we have a prettycool mix of things, and you
don't really have to leave ifyou don't want to, but um, very
(07:37):
cool.
Okay, so you do not I believewhat I heard you say is your
area is not known for gorillasor champion chimpanzees, is that
right?
SPEAKER_00 (07:45):
No, certainly not.
No, there is a neighbor nearbyuh game reserve which will
likely be upgraded to a nationalpark within the next few years.
It's called Pianupe, and that'swhere antelopes, uh giraffes,
and various other wildlife isbeing found.
No, our our area is known forhigh altitude running.
Yeah.
Um in combination withwaterfalls and a culture that's
(08:09):
pretty much intact.
So uh that's also the uniquething about the whole east of
Uganda that they are stilltraditional cultures,
interesting experiences.
People live in them in the moreyeah, original, authentic way.
Is that the right word?
SPEAKER_03 (08:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Is is that because you don'thave gorillas and chimpanzees in
that area?
So the the tourism?
I just wonder about the tourism.
Like it was it the other areasare more popular with tourism or
have been in the past.
So maybe some of the communitieswere more influenced by
outsiders?
SPEAKER_00 (08:44):
Or you might totally and um investments in in road
network and tourism in generalhas only come maybe for 10-15
years now in the in our part ofthe country, whilst yeah, the
west of Uganda is um yeah, is inthat sense more developed and
and more known for a longertime.
SPEAKER_03 (09:03):
I'm so anxious to get to the part where you tell
me how you found this place, whyyou ended up there.
Before we get there though, I Ijust want to dig a little
deeper.
Is it typical your gueststypical?
I you decide how to answer thisquestion, but I guess the
question is do most of yourguests come and do Western
(09:24):
Uganda as well and then comespend some time with you?
Or is it people that havealready been to Uganda in the
past that come to your area?
Or what does it typically looklike?
SPEAKER_00 (09:34):
Five, six years ago, it would be that 80% of our
visitors do the complete Ugandaloop, including the those
highlights in the west, andmaybe ginja, where there's
rafting, and then includes umyeah, one one or more hotspots
in our area.
But it has developed over theyears, and we see the trend that
(09:55):
people are looking for immersiveof the beaten track experiences.
So yeah, we see an increase ofpeople who just focus on the
northeastern loop, and then it'sstill likely to be Jinja.
Come to our Kapchoa slash SippyFalls area, and then proceed
towards the Karamoja, theKaramoja lands with Key Depot,
that's a more remote and andbeautiful national park in the
(10:19):
far north of the of the country,close to the uh South Sudan uh
border.
SPEAKER_03 (10:25):
Okay.
You mentioned ginger a fewtimes.
I think I heard you say that'skind of the headwaters of the of
the Nile.
Is that tell tell us more abouttell me more about that?
Alright.
Please.
SPEAKER_00 (10:39):
Yep.
Um, well, this is where,according to the history books,
Speak found the source of theNile in 1862.
Still debate we could do, butlet's not uh get off track.
Stay away from politics.
SPEAKER_03 (10:55):
We don't need to talk about that.
But anyway, but tell me moreabout ginger.
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00 (11:00):
Uh ginger is known for for a few decades now for
water activities on the on theNile.
So rafting, kayaking, tubing.
It it used to have the fastestrapids in Africa.
A few years ago we got one ortwo dams that have been built in
the Nile.
So the the speed of the watershas slightly reduced, but it's
(11:21):
still a popular place for uhsports lovers.
SPEAKER_03 (11:26):
Is ginger a region?
Is it the name of the riverthere?
Is it a park?
What is when you say ginger,what does that mean?
SPEAKER_00 (11:34):
Yeah, ginger hasn't the name of the the town along
the along the banks of RiverNile.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (11:42):
Alright, very, very cool.
You also mentioned running, highaltitude running.
I was I am kind of aware ofthat.
Um but I'd not enough.
I want to learn more, and Idon't want our listeners to
think, oh, this is you only gothere if you want to do high
altitude running, because I Iget that clear that that's not
the case.
But there's a lot of people thatdo go there because of high
(12:03):
altitude running, which to me, Ias someone who hasn't run in 20
years, I don't quite understandit.
But I'm looking at you, you gota shirt up.
What is you wanted to show yourshirt to me earlier?
What is your shirt saying let'sgo then?
SPEAKER_00 (12:16):
Here we go.
SPEAKER_03 (12:17):
Run Copchoa.
unknown (12:19):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (12:19):
So Copchoa is the name of the uh the mountain
settlement, the settlement, thelittle town where we are based.
And actually, it means in thelocal language, home of France.
SPEAKER_03 (12:32):
Okay, well we came here.
Okay, all right.
SPEAKER_00 (12:37):
I came in the area the first time in 2014, and that
was just a few days after ourchampion, one of our champions,
long distance running, JoshuaCheptage, had won gold in the
junior world championships inthe Eugene.
So there's a US link here.
It was in early August.
(12:58):
We have quite many rain, rainyseasons, so I can remember it
was raining a lot that day.
We were doing an explorationhike, and I had the honor and
the luck to be invited atJoshua's uh home in his village,
just uh five kilometers higherup the mountain.
And I learned that day that thehospitality in the area was just
(13:18):
amazing.
I think I had some uh somechallenges later because I got
uh uh uh chapatis that's uhUgandan pancake and African tea,
um, which can produce somegases, you know.
And at altitude, I hear that canbe and I was new in the area, so
I couldn't refuse.
(13:39):
Yeah, that was a day uh thatinspired me uh uh later, two
years later, on the name for ouruh our guest house.
SPEAKER_03 (13:46):
I think we're at the point we better start discussing
how you got from where you areto where you are.
You know what I mean?
Where you were to where you are.
So let's go back.
How Dan, how far back do we needto go to kind of understand why
this European guy ended up uhrunning this uh guest house and
operation in Uganda?
How far how far back should wego?
SPEAKER_00 (14:05):
Uh 2012.
unknown (14:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (14:08):
Okay, so 2012.
How old were you in 2012?
SPEAKER_00 (14:12):
Uh 28 years.
SPEAKER_03 (14:15):
Let's go further.
Come on.
I I suspect something somethinghappened before 2012.
2012 was probably a pivotalmoment.
I get that.
We're gonna come back to that.
Yeah, yeah.
But when you were growing up,when you were like, if I went to
you when you were 14, 15 yearsold and said, Dan, what do you
want to do when you grow up?
What were what were yourthoughts?
SPEAKER_00 (14:33):
Uh I wanted to become a professional tennis
player, actually.
By then I was training almostevery day.
unknown (14:40):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (14:41):
But around that age, I also learned that I would not
become the next uh RogerFederer.
SPEAKER_03 (14:46):
Okay.
So why why tennis?
SPEAKER_00 (14:50):
Yeah, where did where did tennis come from?
That's that's interesting.
Good question.
Yeah, actually, from a familyand parents who had played my
both both of my parents wereinto ball sports.
They didn't get the fullopportunities when they were
young, especially my father.
So there was a lot ofencouragement when I was six,
seven years to to try outdifferent sports.
And um I had to use the wordencouragement.
SPEAKER_03 (15:14):
I like that.
You used that was that aspecific choice as opposed to
pressure?
Was it pressure orencouragement?
I'm just curious.
SPEAKER_00 (15:20):
No, it was yeah, no, no, no.
My parents are definitely thosenot those type of parents that
we sometimes see also alongfootball pitches, etc.
SPEAKER_03 (15:31):
Did you did you have opportunities to travel, explore
the world?
Was that even on your radar?
SPEAKER_00 (15:37):
By then, maybe I started thinking about it.
It came a little bit later in mystudents' time that I felt the
urge to discover, and that wasby then West Africa.
Did an internship there in Togofor 10 weeks.
Oh wow.
But I mean for the movie.
SPEAKER_03 (15:55):
What got you started?
That's because you said that youstarted to get in interested.
What was the pivotal moment?
I mean, you didn't justautomatically go to Togo for the
hell of it.
I mean, something somethinginspired you.
So what was going on at thattime?
SPEAKER_00 (16:09):
It's it's hard for me to point it out irrationally.
It's more of a uh intuition andand feeling that based on what I
had seen, maybe also apresentation from uh the parents
of a friend when I was when Iwas only six years old.
Yeah, something is coming up.
SPEAKER_03 (16:25):
Okay.
That's why I asked thesequestions, Dan.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay.
Six years old.
See, we went from 28 to 6, sowe're doing good.
Yeah.
1990, yeah.
Very cool.
Yeah.
So you saw a presentation.
Tell me about that, what youremember.
SPEAKER_00 (16:43):
They had lived in Africa, so by then we call them
DIA projectors.
Is it the same words you use?
These manual projectors thatused to be there in the 80s and
90s to the slide projectorswhere you had the little
carousel with all the littleplastic things that yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (16:59):
Exactly.
There's some people listening tothis that are gonna have no idea
what we're talking about.
But I know what you're talkingabout.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (17:07):
So And for some reason that fascinated me.
The colors I saw and the peopleI saw and the smiles, and I
guess that was a trigger, afirst early, early trigger.
SPEAKER_03 (17:17):
I get that.
Do you happen to remember was itjust Africa in general, or was
there a West Africa or aparticular place that they had
been that or do you evenremember as just Africa to you
at that time?
SPEAKER_00 (17:29):
By then it was it was Africa in general.
I'm sure, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:32):
Sub-Saharan Africa, I would say.
SPEAKER_03 (17:34):
Yeah.
There's only one Africa for mostpeople in the US.
I know.
Which we can discuss as well.
But anyway, um, all right, soyou you saw those those images,
and obviously, yeah, okay.
That's uh that's very cool.
And now now fast forward to whenyou decided you're not gonna be
Roger Federer.
And something was going on inschool and you ended up in Togo.
(17:57):
So what what was going on inschool?
SPEAKER_00 (18:00):
Um now I have to dig a little bit into my memory.
Yeah, maybe it relates to what Isaid before, the the the urge to
to explore and to learn about acompletely different place.
Yeah, and by then there's alsothat pragmatic reason that that
that's there for a lot of peopleactually is to to add that
(18:20):
experience to your CV, right?
Before you start sending outyour applications on the on the
job uh market uh after aftergraduation.
So um What were you studying?
Business administration.
SPEAKER_03 (18:33):
Ah, okay.
All right.
Okay.
Business administration, so youYeah, that make and again,
that's a I don't want to say aEuropean thing.
I don't want to go intostereotypes, but I as I was
saying earlier, I think thingsjust maybe feel closer to
Europeans.
I don't know.
So it's it, you know, going toAfrica to work build something
up on your CV is probably justseems a little bit more Yeah,
(18:56):
that makes sense.
Um when you were studyingbusiness because you went to do
this to build up your CV, you'restudying business
administration.
What kind of businessadministration did you want to
do when you talked about sendingout applications?
What types of places were yousending them out to, or what
kind of work were you wanting todo?
SPEAKER_00 (19:12):
On the one hand, it was still broad, so I knew I
wanted to get to a place where Icould learn a lot.
I I was aware enough to knowthat business administration is
quite abstract in university.
I I did choose HRM for mymasters.
So it it's So human resources?
HRM Human Resources.
So and I had always enjoyed fromthose early moments in my youth
(19:36):
of being on the tennis court.
I wasn't actually not a veryindividual player.
It was always I was flourishingand and getting happy when it
was a yearly annual uhcompetition with the team, and I
could coach and I couldencourage, there's the word
again.
SPEAKER_02 (19:50):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (19:54):
Maybe that also explains why it got me into the
master's uh thesis direction ofhuman resources and
organizational psychology.
Eventually I applied for atraineeship with a consultancy
company in uh the public sector.
And uh fast forward a few yearslater I was working as an
education consultant.
SPEAKER_03 (20:16):
Which was your first trip then to Africa?
Was that the time in Togo?
You said it was uh did you say10, a 10-week or something like
that?
Okay.
Yeah.
How old were you?
SPEAKER_00 (20:29):
Yeah, that was in between the bachelor's and the
master's period in between.
So I was twenty three,twenty-four.
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (20:37):
Because the question I was gonna ask you is what did
your parents think of that?
Were they supportive of that?
Did you get pushback from them?
But you were in your twenties asopposed to, you know, sometimes
people go do a year abroad whenthey're 16 or 17, yeah, that
type of thing.
So all right.
But what did your so yourparents were they supportive of
of you going to Togo?
SPEAKER_00 (20:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um and and they enjoyed it verymuch.
There's always a little tension,I think.
SPEAKER_03 (21:02):
Wait, wait, they enjoyed it.
They enjoyed you not being inthe house, they weren't with
you, were they?
SPEAKER_00 (21:07):
I mean, what do you I already had left the house
already earlier?
SPEAKER_03 (21:11):
That's uh well that's you we won't talk about
that.
But yeah, okay, all right, very,very cool.
And what was your what was yourimpression?
Like what what was that like foryou?
SPEAKER_00 (21:19):
Energy is the first word that pops up.
Okay.
Language barrier, a formerFrench colony, and I'd I had
French in my high school, but Iof course didn't learn how to
speak.
SPEAKER_03 (21:33):
Yep, I can realize I I took French in high school as
well, and I remember when I wentto France, I was like, oh, I was
uh sixteen, seventeen, and itwas like, oh, this is gonna be
amazing, and I quickly realizedYeah Yeah, they weren't
impressive.
SPEAKER_00 (21:46):
And and and the heat.
I lost uh I remember losing uhten kilos, and that's where my
parents actually got a littleworried.
Okay.
Uh in the first few weeksbecause of sweating uh in the
night as well.
But yeah.
Wow.
SPEAKER_03 (21:58):
And what were you doing there?
What was like your your purpose,your role, or what was your
daily, you know, what were youwhat was going on?
SPEAKER_00 (22:06):
Yeah, it was part of an international student's
organization called Isaac.
So I was helping students todevelop uh business plans.
SPEAKER_03 (22:15):
These are local, you were helping local students
develop business plans or othertravelers?
What do you mean?
SPEAKER_00 (22:21):
No, I exactly uh students from the University of
Lomay, the capital there, uhstudents in entrepreneurship.
SPEAKER_03 (22:28):
So, Dan, while you were in Togo, was there a moment
that you remember thinking,yeah, I'm definitely gonna be
coming back to Africa, I'm gonnabe living in Africa, or had that
even crossed your mind at thatmoment?
SPEAKER_00 (22:40):
No, actually it didn't.
Uh not yet until that year of2012 I mentioned earlier.
SPEAKER_03 (22:47):
Okay.
What happened at well, before weget to 2012, anything happened
between Togo and 2012 that youthink was a big influence?
SPEAKER_00 (22:55):
Or should we just jump right to 2012?
Let's jump to 2012.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (22:59):
All right, cool.
I know you want to.
Tell me about 2012.
SPEAKER_00 (23:03):
Yeah, so I was I was I was working at a consultancy
company for three years by then.
I remember standing in theelevator together with the CEO,
big company, 1200 people.
I can't exactly remember what weshared, but there was a moment
where I felt like this doesn'tconnect.
(23:24):
And at the same time, I washappy in my job.
I had survived some huge layoffafter the economic crisis, those
years after.
I was working together with alot of different consultants,
seniors, so I could learn a lot.
So satisfied, but uh feelinginside that there was something
more meaningful, meaningful tochase in life.
SPEAKER_03 (23:46):
So something happened on the elevator, and
you don't want you don't want togo into details.
No.
But you remember what it was,but we don't need to talk about
that.
Well sh I get that.
I I was working for a companythat had gone through, I'm not
gonna share too many detailseither, but I you know I've gone
through some difficult times,and I remember something that a
(24:07):
very senior leader in thecompany said about layoffs.
Right.
It was like, okay, this justdoesn't something doesn't feel
right.
I knew I knew a lot of thepeople that were laid off.
And yeah, it's uh it can be atough thing.
All right, so you decided thisis not my place.
So what how did what whatactions did you take?
What did that look like?
SPEAKER_00 (24:28):
Yeah, I knew that I wanted to do something with
youth and sports.
So I had experienced myself inmy youth how it helped me uh as
a shy boy from a remote area inthe Netherlands to connect with
new people, to develop mytalents, but also to develop
other skills that come alongwith it.
Yeah, so I started sharing withpeople in my hometown by then,
(24:50):
Utrecht, and actually exploring,talking to a lot of people and
developing an idea for sportsfor development projects.
I didn't know by then exactlywhere that would be, and and
certainly not how, but I wasjust drive.
SPEAKER_03 (25:07):
Did you get people because what I what it sounds
like is I was successful doingwell in the corporate world, and
now I'm starting to talk about,you know, I think my purpose is
to develop uh younger kids insports, and and maybe I'll walk
away from this paycheck and gostart something somewhere.
Did you get pushback or peoplethinking you were crazy?
(25:29):
Or what was what was that like?
SPEAKER_00 (25:32):
I think many uh I was in a group of young
professionals and in quiteintense training program and
good colleagues, colleaguesactually.
Um and I yeah, I think quite bythen quite many of them later
that changed, were in that redrace that I consciously tried to
(25:52):
escape.
It was a mix.
Some people understood it and uhgave me new connections in that
direction, and others probablystill don't understand.
SPEAKER_03 (26:04):
I'm sure there's a handful that did not understand
at the time, but this was awhile ago, and now they've
probably experienced more inlife, and they're looking at you
like Dan man, you're you're thesmart guy.
Look at you living the dream.
But yeah, all right.
Okay.
So you started, so anyway, youstarted asking around, creating,
you know, figuring out how youwere gonna do that.
(26:25):
How long did it take?
What just tell me more aboutthat?
What did that progression looklike?
SPEAKER_00 (26:31):
Yeah, actually, there were two parallel
processes there.
And the two years before I uhdecided to quit my job is
exploring what I've just sharedand and developing the idea.
And and the other bigger one isto collect the courage to uh
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:49):
So how long did it take you to collect the courage
to jump?
SPEAKER_00 (26:53):
That's about two years.
SPEAKER_03 (26:55):
Okay.
What what advice do you giveyour younger self if you could
go back and look at Dan whenhe's one month into that
two-year process?
What advice would you have givenhim?
SPEAKER_00 (27:07):
Think about how to sustain yourself financially in
the first years or after makingthe jump.
SPEAKER_03 (27:13):
Okay.
But but presumably that's whatyou were thinking at the time,
is and that might be part of whyit took two years was how am I
gonna sustain?
So it sounds like you werealready thinking about that.
unknown (27:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:29):
It's of course a bit uh double, because on the other
hand, would I have uh would Ihave ever jumped when I knew uh
it would become so challengingas well in the first years?
So uh yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:42):
Yeah, I asked someone a similar question not
too long ago and she responded,I you know, I said, What would
you tell your younger self whenyou were um getting when you had
this idea of your start ofstarting your business?
And she literally just said, uh,get a job.
Yeah.
Sounds like that's my family'stold me that a few times as well
as I've uh endeavored, you know,to to start new things.
SPEAKER_02 (28:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (28:05):
All right, I get that.
Was there but looking back, isthere any part of you that just
wished you would have gonequicker and just said, screw it,
I'm not gonna wait until I havefinancial sustainability?
Do you feel like you waited toolong, I guess, is what I'm
asking.
Do you wish you would havejumped quicker?
SPEAKER_00 (28:22):
Not not really.
SPEAKER_03 (28:25):
Or slower.
Do you think do you wish youwould have jumped slower?
Good question.
SPEAKER_00 (28:29):
No, that life unfolds in a certain way, and it
comes along with no, that's howI've experienced it and um yeah,
staying with so easy to lookback and say, Well, you know, I
coulda, shoulda, woulda.
SPEAKER_03 (28:41):
Whatever.
We did, we did what we did.
Yeah.
All right.
So were you were there people inyour life that were seriously
impacted by you?
I'm this is my way of askingyou, were you in a relationship?
Was there somebody in your lifethat was, you know, supporting
this decision or fightingagainst it, or what was going on
personally?
SPEAKER_01 (29:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (29:02):
On that level.
SPEAKER_00 (29:04):
I wasn't in a serious relationship by then.
That makes it easier.
Makes it definitely easier.
SPEAKER_03 (29:10):
Yeah.
It's a little different when yougot a wife and two kids, and
you're saying I want to go coachkids to play soccer and running.
All right.
Yeah.
Okay.
So so what what did you do whenyou jumped?
Tell tell me what that was whatthat was like and and what did
you actually do?
What did jumping look like toyou?
SPEAKER_00 (29:28):
Yeah, the the jump was a little bit less rough, I
can say.
Smooth, actually, because of anold friend from high school who
was organizing a program for newsocial entrepreneurs in Kampala,
the capital of Uganda.
SPEAKER_03 (29:41):
Ah, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (29:42):
And that was a one-month program that opened a
lot of doors.
And um, yeah, there was thisteam setting where we were
helping each other to developour project ideas.
SPEAKER_03 (29:52):
So yeah, that's And were these all mostly Europeans
or were there Ugandans there aswell?
SPEAKER_00 (29:57):
Yeah, mixed 50-50 uh Europeans, Dutch people
actually, with with Ugandansfrom the capital.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (30:05):
Was there was there something that happened in that
month that very clearly led toum what you're doing now?
SPEAKER_00 (30:13):
Yeah, a opportunity with a sports university near
Kampala to work as a uh linkingpin between university and
community sports coaches toorganize events for youth, to to
develop training programs forfor the coaches.
Yeah, and that that gave mereally the opportunity to also
uh live in the in the communityand yeah in this case a student
(30:38):
community which has its specificuh characteristics.
Yeah.
Yeah, that that's that's where Iactually met a sports science
student from Kapchoa.
So eventually he took me to hishome area, highly passionate
about the sports potential andthe beauty of his place, um and
(30:59):
the rest is history.
SPEAKER_03 (31:01):
Was was this opportun uh none of my business,
but I I ask questions, that'swhat I do.
Yeah, was this kind of a paidopportunity, or was this just
getting paid by making a lot ofconnections and and uh maybe the
cost of living was low?
I don't know.
What what was that?
SPEAKER_00 (31:18):
It was it was a pro bono uh arrangement.
Yeah, that's what I thought.
Free accommodation and freemeals.
Well, that's and and a driverand transport.
That was actually uh yeah, ohyeah, uh good other benefit.
SPEAKER_01 (31:33):
Very cool.
So then what?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (31:38):
Well, I was just saying, so then so you got up
there, you're kind of doing allthis pro bono is the word you
used.
How did you end up turning thatinto the business now with you
know Homer Friends guest houseand and community experiences?
How did how did you take it?
Because like when you got there,did you just know this is the
place?
And uh here and and start this?
(31:59):
No, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (32:00):
I first stayed in a hotel in Kapchoa town for five,
six months in total.
I was still traveling back andforth between Kampala, where I
had another, again, not a fullybut maybe semi-paid job.
And yeah, after a while I uh sawmy savings money uh declining,
and I was looking for a house torent for me to sleep and to eat,
(32:25):
but also to have meetings withour community sports coaches
because we had started thatyouth project by then.
And that was uh on a on a pieceof land with old fans and a few
cows, chicken maybe, and and uhyeah, one house.
Where I stayed for about oneyear until I shared with the
owner of the place, who is nowmy business partner.
(32:46):
Um, and um yeah, he he liked mymy business plan for a place
where sports lovers would meetand learn from each other,
inspire each other.
He had the money and I had theconnections and the ideas.
And that turned out to be amatch, and it's still a match up
to today.
SPEAKER_03 (33:05):
All right, so that property that you're just
talking about is where the guesthouse is now.
Exactly.
I take it.
I don't want to Okay.
All right.
What has changed?
Uh like your idea of a placewhere sports lovers can come
together and community and allthat stuff.
Has that changed, or do youstill feel like that's kind of
what you're doing?
SPEAKER_00 (33:24):
Yeah, that's what we are doing.
Yeah.
Maybe not on a daily basisbecause the types of guests we
get, it it varies.
But there are a lot of momentswhere we uh yeah even have these
interactions between um uh therunning champions from our small
community, and theyspontaneously meet with uh with
(33:44):
their fans.
Yeah, those are uh moments whereuh it can just be uh selfie, but
sometimes there's a little bitmore of interaction and there's
a collaboration coming out ofit.
SPEAKER_03 (33:56):
It sounds like and maybe you're like duh, Jason.
I've tried to explain this, butit sounds like a mix between a
community center and a uhhospitality, tourism.
It's like an interesting mix ofthings, which I'm sure is
exactly what you're trying totell me, right?
SPEAKER_00 (34:12):
Yeah, and also not a typical lodge in the sense that
there's a mix of uh the guestsfrom from the town, from the
villages around, and uhinternational.
SPEAKER_03 (34:22):
Yeah.
That's that's very cool.
Do you do you feel like yourguests kind of get that before
they show up, or is it just likethey don't know what they don't
know, and then they get thereand they realize that this is a
whole different thing than whatthey expected, or what are your
thoughts?
SPEAKER_00 (34:37):
You were referring back to meeting these.
SPEAKER_03 (34:40):
Well, I'm just talking about your your guests,
like the the people that comeand stay with you, maybe from
Europe or the US.
Yeah, do they kind of alreadyget this interesting mix of
community center and hospitalityand activity base?
Or do they just kind of walkinto it blind and then they get
there and like, oh wow, this isnot what I expected.
(35:01):
I mean, what's your experiencewith that?
SPEAKER_00 (35:02):
Yeah, it's it's it's a real mix.
So we do have people even cometo stay for longer and they uh
have already planned with us toengage with the community and to
to book different experiences,and sometimes we call them
impact volunteers, so that's forlonger periods, and people
really come to to train ourguides, for example, on a
specific topic.
(35:23):
And then there's also a wholebunch of guests who um yeah
don't have uh who may havebooked via two operator, and
there's already an itinerary anduh activities planned to the
waterfalls.
Yeah, then then it then it uhturns out to be a surprise to
them.
Or that that that link is notbeing made because we know yeah,
(35:46):
we have travelers who go fasterand travelers who go slower.
SPEAKER_03 (35:51):
All right, very cool.
What was the in the beginning,what was the hardest part?
I mean, well, you mentioned yourdwindling savings, I get that.
But maybe as far as justculturally or just being in a
place, you know, pretty remote.
I mean, what was what were thebiggest challenges for you
either personally, emotionally,business-wise?
SPEAKER_00 (36:12):
Yeah, two things spring into mind expectation
levels and collaboration.
SPEAKER_03 (36:19):
Okay, when you say expectation levels, are you
talking about your expectationlevels?
SPEAKER_00 (36:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, I remember a metaphorbeing used by a colleague in an
online leadership training in2015.
I was explaining my plans in theearly stages, and he described a
situation with two horses, Danin the middle, trying to keep
them both on track.
But one horse was much fasterthan the other.
(36:44):
So, yeah, I I as much as I didmy research and I took five
months to learn the language, toconnect with the people in the
community where we started theyouth project.
I had this idea about a sportfor development project.
And yeah, for example, weintroduced many sports, but
after a few months, because ofthe strong running culture,
everyone was back into thelong-distance running.
(37:09):
So I had to learn to slow downum and to tap uh more into the
existing strength of thecommunity in the running, in the
in the lifestyle, in the health,uh healthy lifestyle of the
place.
SPEAKER_03 (37:24):
It's I'm sure I'm sure you you've thought this
out, and I'm not surprised youwhen I say this, but what I just
hear is it's a very interestingthing because we're talking
about speed.
You're saying, I need to slowdown, and the almost the same
sentence that you're saying theyjust want to run.
(37:45):
It's like, oh that'sinteresting, because because if
we just set aside the runningpart, you know, culturally, I
think, okay, you're from kind ofyou know, you're uh European
European guy, um, and an Africannation where probably the pace
of life and just develop andjust the way things go, I would
imagine, is very different.
(38:05):
So I can see when you say, well,I need to slow down, but then
you're talking about they liketo run a lot.
Yeah.
It's it's I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (38:11):
It's a paradox, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (38:13):
Yeah, it's uh it's kind of anyway.
All right.
So that was a big one, was justyour maybe your expectations of
okay, we can get this buildingproject done.
It should only take us threemonths, right?
I'm just guessing.
But then the reality of it isthat things don't work that way.
I've I've lived in Latin Americalong enough.
We have similar things going onhere, and I and I managed to
(38:35):
lodge in Belize, and the thestaff there were always on a way
different time schedule than Iwas on.
It was really hard to adapt tothat.
But I also respected that aboutthem.
It was part of what I lovedabout the the culture, and it
was like, no, this is what'smore important right now.
Yeah, we're gonna spend sometime talking and BSing and doing
(38:55):
something interesting instead ofyou know go work on the tractor
to get fixed or whatever, youknow.
So yeah, all right, very cool.
Did you have other Europeansaround you in the beginning at
all?
Or did did you struggle withisolation, or was that a
challenge?
SPEAKER_00 (39:11):
Yeah, the first period of the youth uh sports
project, there were no other ummazungus, as we call them in
East Africa, foreigners around.
And actually, how the guesthouse started was also with the
second mozungu in the area, thecoach of several of the running
champions, fellow Dutch, whocame uh in 2017 to build a team
(39:34):
around the guy I've alreadymentioned, Joshua Cheptegay, and
who stayed.
Remember, there was one buildingat the start, two under one
roof, two family houses.
He was staying next door for twoyears before he found his own
place.
SPEAKER_03 (39:48):
Okay.
Was that I mean you have apersonal relationship with it?
We don't need to go into toomany details, but for you, just
was it was it exciting to haveanother you said mazungo?
That's what's the word?
Yeah, uh mazungu.
Mazungu, okay.
Was that it was that exciting?
I think it would be for mesometimes.
SPEAKER_00 (40:06):
Yeah, definitely, to to to share your inspiration and
your challenges.
Um the challenges can also bethat much that um uh yeah, it
doesn't always help, right?
One way or the uh or the other,you have to find your way to to
to build your collaboration inthe community.
SPEAKER_03 (40:26):
Do you remember a moment when you felt like you'd
been there long enough that thecommunity started to see you as
just a regular staple of thecommunity as opposed to an
outsider?
SPEAKER_00 (40:37):
To a certain extent.
SPEAKER_03 (40:39):
Or maybe that hasn't happened.
I don't know.
You tell me.
SPEAKER_00 (40:42):
I don't know what it's like living there.
Never fully, for sure.
And that comes back toexpectation levels, what I've
mentioned before, that um yeah,as a Mizungu, you are a walking
wallet, and some of my communitysports coaches thought that
there was a huge head office inthe Netherlands be behind our
initiative, yet there were onlytwo friends who voluntarily
(41:07):
helped in their free time, maybeone hour a week, to at least get
a few donations in to supportit.
SPEAKER_01 (41:14):
Yeah.
So yeah, that yeah.
What's the biggest struggle now?
SPEAKER_00 (41:20):
I have to think about that because actually,
also after a few years,obviously around COVID and the
and a few years after, yeah, itwas also staying with a lot of
discomfort in the sense of ityeah, we are not in the area
that naturally gets uh a hugeflow of tourists, so it is
tight.
But we are now in a period wherethings I'm really proud that
we've we've taken our time tobuild things slow but sure,
(41:44):
which is uh which I came tobelieve it it it it it it might
be the only way that works in inthe context, in rural context.
So it's hard to think of achallenge right now.
SPEAKER_03 (41:55):
If I'm curious if if you had access to a pretty good
marketing budget and you wantedto bring more people into your
community, would your goal be toget more people to visit Uganda,
or would it be to get a biggerpercentage of the people already
visiting Uganda to your area?
(42:15):
I know that they both would movethe needle, but what do you
think?
Like if you could only chooseone, we're gonna promote Uganda
or we're gonna promote the areawhere we're at, what do you
think would move the needle themost?
SPEAKER_00 (42:27):
Yeah, uh promote destination Kapchoa um linked to
that northeastern loop Imentioned before.
And we see the the interest isis is growing also among
international tool operators.
So yeah, that is also maybe whyI can't come up with that
challenge right away.
There's kind of a flow in in inyeah, we've also become more
(42:48):
aware maybe of our strength, andof course the network, the warm
network has been growing.
Our guides play a very crucialrole here, so I see a lot of
confidence, uh bigger confidencethan compared with a with a few
years ago in the way theyconnect and um yeah, also do
their part of the marketing ofthe destination.
SPEAKER_03 (43:07):
So yeah, we we are in a in a good is is being a
guide in that area is that afairly high social status job, I
would guess.
But I don't know.
I mean, yeah, your guides, likewhen your guides are downtown
and and you know, people arelike, oh, he's a guide, he's you
know, maybe they dress a littledifferently.
(43:28):
I remember when I was in Belize,for example, our guides would at
the end of the week they'd geton the boat to go back to town.
And yeah, these guys are very,very humble looking around the
lodge and working with theirclients, but then when they get
on the boat to go back to town,they've got the gold chain on
and the Nike sneakers.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Right.
Because they know that when theyget back to the dock, there's
gonna be people around to seethem, and they're like, Oh,
(43:49):
you're a you're a fishing guide,so you, you know, and so I was
just curious if it's similar inyour community.
SPEAKER_00 (43:54):
Yeah, that's similar, pretty high status, but
still below the the thechampions.
SPEAKER_03 (43:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ooh, yeah, I bet, because you'vegot a a culture of very
well-known um athletes there.
SPEAKER_02 (44:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (44:07):
That's interesting.
Hmm.
Very, very interesting.
You mentioned earlier somethingkind of about just the kind of
the infrastructure was part ofwhy there's not so much, you
know, tourism there.
Is that still a concern?
I mean, if you could wave amagic wand and and put in a
superhighway leading right intothe neighborhood or or an
airport or something like that.
SPEAKER_02 (44:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (44:29):
Is there anything like that that would instantly
solve the um not solve aproblem, but just bring more
tourists in?
unknown (44:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (44:36):
And would you even want those tourists?
SPEAKER_00 (44:39):
Yeah, that the that's a good question.
I wouldn't know the full uhstraight answer to that, because
I would say an airport, but doesit then bring in the type of
tourists that really want toconnect with the community?
Yeah, that's a question.
It may depend.
The highways is really apositive development.
Over the last five years we havebeen connected to the canyon
border, um uh behind KapchoaTown.
(45:04):
There's a new highway, there'seven solar streetlights in the
night.
It's it's a complete uhtransformation of the of the of
the surroundings of the town inthe town.
So I I noticed that it alsohelps um our stakeholders and
guides to yeah, to be confidentand and they're really happy
about it.
And it's kind of it has been avery isolated area, not much
(45:27):
recognized in the past.
So I guess it has to do withrecognition as well.
SPEAKER_03 (45:32):
You mentioned earlier, I think at a map, but I
think you said you're fairlyclose to the Sudan border as
well.
SPEAKER_00 (45:40):
No, not really.
That's the Kidepo National ParkI mentioned, but uh we are close
to the Kenyan border, 80kilometers from the Kenyan
border.
SPEAKER_03 (45:48):
Okay.
The reason I brought that up isthere's a few countries or words
that that trigger people aroundsafety concerns and issues.
And so what I the question Ijust asked you is very probably
a typical question, maybe forpeople that like Africa.
Well, what do you know aboutAfrica?
They think about things that arenot so pleasant and places that
(46:12):
they probably should not go.
So let's just discuss that for aminute.
Let's discuss attitudes aboutAfrica, let's discuss safety in
Uganda and what do you I guessthe question is, what do you
think are the biggestmisconceptions that you would
that you would want to sharewith people?
SPEAKER_00 (46:29):
Yeah, safety, you've mentioned it first.
Uganda is a very welcomingcountry.
The people are laid back andfriendly.
So it's really easy to hire acar and to travel around.
Anytime there's an issue withyour car, you will you will get
help.
Mechanics uh jump up fromnowhere.
SPEAKER_03 (46:45):
Let me let me just I want to make sure I'm clear.
I also want to make sure ourlisteners, because when you say
hire a car, that maybe soundsdifferent to some some people we
might say rent a car, and then Imight say hire a driver.
So I just want to be real clearon what you're saying.
You're saying hire a car,meaning you could show up, rent
a car, and drive yourselfaround.
SPEAKER_00 (47:04):
Yeah, that happens quite a lot.
Maybe 30 to 40 percent of ourguests do that.
SPEAKER_03 (47:11):
I'm not I'm not gonna ask about your US guest.
I think I already know theanswer.
But that's why we're having thisconversation.
Because, you know, is yeah, whatexpectations we talked about
expectations.
So you can go there, rent a car,presumably book rooms whether
they're staying with you, ormaybe just book hotel rooms and
motels and places to stay.
(47:33):
And you said and you said thatif your car breaks down, a bunch
of mechanics will show up.
Is it I wonder if you can it'sanother maybe it's just because
I spent so much time in Belizedealing with the locals.
In Belize, I noticed that likepretty much everybody could do
anything.
Right.
Yeah.
Whether they could really do itor not.
Yeah, but but if you know Iwould show up at the boat ramp,
(47:55):
you know, when I'd go into thecity and people would say, Uh,
you know, Mr.
Jason, do you have a job for me?
And I say, Well, I don't know,what do you what do you do?
Well, what do you need?
Yeah.
If I said I need a generatormechanic, yep, I'm a generator
mechanic.
If I said I need a boat captain,I'm a boat captain.
If I said I need a dive master,I I can do that.
SPEAKER_00 (48:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So yeah, yeah.
I recognize that question fromuh from applicants.
Uh, open applic uh uh peoplecall me the open application,
that is the common thing theysay.
SPEAKER_03 (48:22):
Yeah, I can do whatever you need, which it's
great.
I love that enthusiasm.
And it's you know, it's a it'sactually a really a smart
approach in life.
Yeah.
As opposed to, you know, justsitting around, well, I only
know how to do this one thing,so I'm just that I am a
carpenter, and that's all I do,and that's all I know.
(48:42):
And there's no carpentry jobsright now, so I'm just gonna sit
around and wait for a carpentryjob.
Yeah, as opposed to maybe justyou know convince somebody that
I'm a car mechanic.
Yeah, right.
Yeah, to the needs.
It's an important, importantskill to have.
Okay, so are there places inUganda?
I'll just direct question.
Are there places in Uganda thatvisitors really have no business
(49:05):
going to?
At the moment?
I know that's a tough question.
No.
And I could edit this out laterif you if you don't want to, but
you know what I mean.
SPEAKER_00 (49:14):
No, there are no no go areas at the moment, I would
let me think.
There has been a uh a littlesecurity issue along the
Congolese border, but it's sometime back.
But it's it's really in thewestern, far western part of the
country.
But as far as I can oversee,that has been fully brought back
to uh to to a stable situation.
(49:35):
People are freely traveling thecountry, actually.
SPEAKER_03 (49:37):
Have you had conversations?
I suspect you have hadconversations with people that
will say things like, Oh, Iheard about something.
I don't really I don't want toname any countries, but yeah, I
heard something about something.
So we're holding off on ourplans to go to Africa, and
you're like, that's fourthousand miles away.
Yeah.
(49:57):
They just think of Africa asthis one country, and anything
that's going on in WesternAfrica must be impacting what's
going on in Eastern Africa, andso on and so forth.
Um, I'm sure that comes up alot.
What's your what's your typicalresponse?
SPEAKER_00 (50:13):
Yeah, I used to Africa's a big place.
I used to passionately thenstart talking about our area and
how beautiful it is, but laterI've learned that it's that
doesn't necessarily convincethem.
So I guess over time I learned alittle bit more to um yeah, then
to really, really explain thereal situation on the ground.
Yeah, maybe also connect them totravelers who've been here
(50:34):
already, or to use that as ashowcase, an example.
And and also to that's actuallysomething we are working on at
the moment to um still figuringout how to do it, but to have
some FAQ answers on our websitethat tackles some of these early
concerns.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (50:51):
I wonder, I think somebody that books a trip like
actually takes the initiative toinitiate something and then gets
nervous because of they see anews report or something like
that.
That's one thing.
I think that that type oftraveler is maybe worthwhile to
help them, you know, learn andand ease their concerns.
(51:14):
But I suspect like if you go toa trade show, let's say you go
to Berlin, a trade show inBerlin, and there's and you run
into people and and you justhappen to mention you do this
thing in Uganda and they'relike, oh, Africa is really
dangerous.
It's probably yeah, you probablyI'm just curious.
Have you like just got to thepoint where there's no point in
me trying to get to even takethe time to share with them
(51:39):
anything?
It's like they've already madethat decision.
And I I don't know where I'mgoing with this, other than I
remember I had when I worked atum I was running a big travel
business inside of anotherbusiness, and an employee of
that company came to me one dayand said, Jason, we should we
really need to set up more tripslike to Europe for people that
(52:00):
don't like to travel or they'reafraid.
You know, they're like peoplebecause like my wife, I want to
take my wife to Europe, butshe's afraid of this and afraid
of that, and uh just afraid ofeverything.
And we should set up trips forpeople like that.
SPEAKER_00 (52:12):
I actually I have to think now of a of a family
member who said when I left theNetherlands, I won't specify the
person any further, but um whatwhat does Dan have to do in Dark
Africa?
What sense is there in thisdecision?
SPEAKER_03 (52:27):
For a person that already believes that way, it's
I I don't know how much you cando to to influence them.
You can say, Oh, you should talkto so-and-so, you should talk to
so-and-so, you should talk, butthey're already kind of, but
it's like that in everything inlife.
I mean, it's politics and so somany different things.
I mean, I remember when Istarted traveling full-time, you
know, I started my my voyage inColombia, and I'm in Colombia
(52:50):
now.
I I haven't been here the wholetime, but um, yeah, I remember
when I left, I had familymembers that are like, why on
earth would you want to gothere?
And yeah, and even to this day,you know, there was something
happened here in Colombia a fewweeks ago, and I got messages
from people back home.
And I and they're like, Oh, iseverything okay?
And I'm like, What are youtalking about?
I didn't even like make theconnection, I kind of saw the
(53:12):
news report, but it's like,yeah, whatever.
And they're like, Oh, I I hearthe country's in chaos and
da-da-da-da-da, and this andthat.
And I was like, I literallydidn't know.
I had to go on my phone and lookup like what are they even
talking about?
But anyway, yeah, it's um, it'sit's a challenge.
We've discussed a bunch ofthings, we've covered quite a
few topics.
(53:33):
We got all the way back to whenyou were six watching a
slideshow, which is really coolbecause actually, you know, I
have some memories when I waspretty young where I saw some
slideshows that were prettyinfluential in my life as well.
And uh so I appreciate yousharing that because it kind of
triggered a memory for me aswell.
Okay.
So that's uh that's very cool.
Um, but Dan, what did we notdiscuss, or what do you wish
(53:56):
that I would have asked you uhbefore we wrap up?
I just wanted to give you achance to share anything you'd
like with our listeners thatmaybe we missed over or glossed
over.
SPEAKER_02 (54:05):
Okay, all right, please thinking.
No, I I there's no question.
I think we got it, huh?
SPEAKER_00 (54:13):
Well done.
Job well done.
SPEAKER_03 (54:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (54:15):
Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_03 (54:16):
Well, yeah, as soon as I push the stop record
button, then something's gonnacome to your head.
Yeah, that's okay.
It just means we have to comeback and do it again later.
No problem.
SPEAKER_00 (54:24):
If we would have another hour, but then we have
to plan another session.
I would I would love to divedeeper into how to build a team
and um a human resource part ofuh of growing a social
enterprise in a remote area.
But um yeah, it's it's not easy.
Can't cover everything.
SPEAKER_03 (54:42):
No, it's it's not easy, and you've developed a sk
and I know because I've beenaround long enough, um, is that
you've developed a skill thatvery few people ever do.
You know, to go into anotherculture and build a team and
build an enterprise that'scommunity focused, that's not
just a business, but is alsogiving back and involving
people, that's a that's that's ahuge thing.
(55:05):
Do you have any any new newprojects that you're thinking
about you want to mention, or isthat still that in the future to
be seen?
SPEAKER_00 (55:13):
Yeah, the focus is actually a lot on um telling the
story of what we've built andthe uniqueness of our
destination.
Here back in the Netlands, sowhat's was supposed to become a
family and friends visit at themoment is more of a a work.
Um it's still a holiday becauseyeah, talking about your passion
is not really work, right?
(55:34):
Yeah, yeah.
And in line with that yeah,reaching out to magazines,
outdoor travel magazines,running adventure magazines.
That's what I'm actually thismorning.
I was working on an articleabout the secrets behind the
running success in Kopchoa andum yeah, the real roots of the
(55:54):
champions, and how nature,community, um, and the running
culture are connected there.
So yeah, I guess it's just alsoum yeah, believing in the
uniqueness and then and andfollowing up on that and and
sharing that story more andmore.
That's the flow uh we are in atthe moment.
SPEAKER_03 (56:15):
And that's why we're here.
So thank you so much, Dan.
Thanks for coming and sharingyour story, the story of Home of
Friends.
I feel like I want to say homeof friends, and but then I feel
like should I say the wholething?
Or but you know what?
Home of Friends, guest house andcommunity experiences, which is
a little bit of a mouthful, butI appreciate that because it
says so much.
I love the you know, home offriends is uh it's just pretty
(56:38):
cool.
I like that.
I mean, it's like you just youfeel like you've made friends
before you even get there.
So yeah, yeah, yeah.
I look forward to uh hopefullyvisiting you someday and that
would be great, uh Jason.
SPEAKER_00 (56:48):
Yeah.
unknown (56:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (56:50):
Dan, thank you so much.
I appreciate your sharing yourtime and look forward to
chatting with you again soon.
SPEAKER_00 (56:55):
Thank you very much, uh Jason.
All right.
SPEAKER_03 (56:57):
Okay, Dan.
SPEAKER_00 (56:58):
Bye.
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