Adventure Travel with Dimitry Elias Léger - Author of Death of the Soccer God & God Loves Haiti - Adventure Travel Podcast - Big World Made Small

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (01:04):
Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of
the Big World Made Small Podcastfor the Adventure Traveler.
So happy to have each and everyone of you back here today, and
we're doing something a littledifferent today.
We've got a wonderful guest foryou.
We've got Dimitri Elias Leger.
He's the author of Death of theSoccer God.
Dimitri, welcome to the show.
Happy to have you here.

(01:24):
Hi Jason, great to be here.
Hey, it's just this is exciting.
I mentioned that it's somethinga little different today because
you're an author.
You've written some great books.
We're going to definitelydiscuss that.
You're not the typical guestthat we have on the show in the
sense that you're a touroperator or necessarily a travel
writer or anything like that.
But when we first spoke, I duginto a little bit to your of
your background and I thought,well, hey, that's just that's

(01:47):
fascinating.
So we're going to definitelydiscuss the book, and we're
going to discuss kind of how yougot from where you are to where
you are now.
You've got a very interestingpast, and I think that a lot of
our listeners will really enjoyhearing that.
And before we do that, let'stouch on tell me about your
book, Death of the Soccer God.
Give us a little bit of ideawhat that's all about.
And then we're going to go backinto your past and work our way

(02:08):
back up and probably wrap updiscussing the book again.

SPEAKER_03 (02:11):
Well, thanks, Jason.
My first book, my first book iscalled God Loves Haiti.
It was inspired by a trip I didto Haiti after the big
earthquake in 2010.
And I worked there as ahumanitarian for a year.
And the stories I heard andcollected while working stayed
with me.
So I did, I wrote a novel aboutfamily, or a couple that
survived the earthquake tryingto figure out what to do next

(02:32):
with their lives.
It was about PTSD and it's aboutlove and it's about faith.
It's about do you stay or do youleave when your country's in
trouble?
While I was in Haiti working, Iread an article about a
little-known story of a Haitianimmigrant who was studying at
Columbia University and playingsoccer for fun at Sheep's

(02:52):
Meadow, the big park withinCentral Park, with a bunch of
immigrants, and got recruited toplay for the U.S.
soccer team in the World Cup of1950, which took place in
Brazil.
I'm like, wait, I love Brazil.
I love football.
And I've been an immigrant who'sgone from New York, Haiti to New
York as a teenager to follow mystudies, and now I was back in

(03:14):
Haiti working for the UN.
So it's like, what was it liketo go from Haiti to New York and
then become a soccer player forthe Americans and then go play
in Brazil?
So it sounds to me, and then bygreat coincidence, in 2014,
Brazil hosted the World Cup ofsoccer.
And then I was like, wait,sounds like I gotta go to Brazil
to research this novel.
Yeah.

(03:34):
The novel took place in 1950 inBrazil, but 2014, 1950 is still
vibes.
What are the vibes of a WorldCup in Brazil life?
What were the team, what was myhero doing in between matches?
What were the teammates doing?
What happens when you got abunch of 22-year-old soccer
players let them loose in Braziland better horizontal Brazil?

(03:57):
What could they possibly do?
What trouble could I get into?
So I went down to Brazil forthree weeks during the 2014
World Cup and I and I and Irecord and I explored and took a
lot of pictures, and then I camehome and I wrote a novel.
So you already called Death ofthe Sucker God, and just like my

(04:19):
first book, it's inspired by atrip I did to Brazil, among
other things.

SPEAKER_00 (04:25):
And you had already decided when did you make the
decision to write the book?
Because I don't know how thethought process works for
authors.
Is it you kind of just do youhave a bunch of ideas in your
head and you kind of explore allof them and then one just pops
out?
Or is it you make a firmdecision, okay, this is the
person I want to write about.
So now I need to go to Brazil toresearch, I need to do all this

(04:46):
stuff for you.
Like, was it a kind of aforegone conclusion that you're
gonna write this book early inthe process, or did it just come
about later?

SPEAKER_03 (04:54):
I found my voice as a novelist in April 2010.
Basically this week in April in2010.
I'd always wanted to writeinternational adventure novels.
I'd always wanted to write notnecessarily James Bond, but
Hemingway style novels about aforeigner in a foreign land.
I'm looking for dignity, lookingfor love, looking for valor.

(05:14):
Those questions always matteredto me.
I love Hemingway.
I love Graham Green novels aswell.
And he they wrote novels aboutjournalists or diplomats
traveling the world and tryingto do some right things and
sleeping off the wrong woman andthen somehow trying to make the
right things right.
Even there's a revolution aroundthem, there's a civil war around
them.
There was World War II.
I mean, Hemingway's novel,Farewell to Arms, my favorite

(05:37):
novel of all time, is about aguy fighting for the Allies in
World War II in northern Italywho falls in love with his nurse
after getting wounded andconvinced the nurse to um leave
the war.
Mm-hmm.
Desertion.
Desertion for love.
It doesn't end well.
Right.
And um, so those novels reallymoved me.

(05:58):
So I was going to write thesekind of novels.
Um, and I've been struggling tofind my voice as a novelist.
April 2010, I read an essay inthe New York Times about about
what it was like for me to be inHaiti as a Haitian expat 24
years after I left.
800 breezy words about danger,romance, hope.

(06:19):
It was bittersweet, and but thebittersweetness of it was like,
oh, this is the voice I coulduse for a novel.
Two months later, I read anarticle in Spotify's trade about
this Haitian soccer player whoplays for the Americans, scores
the game-winning goal for USagainst England, in Brazil,
shocks the world, becomes superfamous, meets Harry Truman, the
president of the United States,goes to play professional ball

(06:40):
in Paris, comes back to Haiti, aconquering hero, gets
disappeared by a dictator.

SPEAKER_01 (06:46):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (06:46):
Oh wow.
But when when I read he gotdisappeared, he got picked up on
the street one day and taken toa gulag, never to be seen again,
dead or alive.
But since nobody ever saw hisdead body, I told myself, maybe
he didn't die.
Maybe he escaped, like escapefrom Alcatraz style.

(07:07):
Maybe he escaped and agreed tolay low, and he's running a bar
in Paris or driving a cab inMiami.
And that got my imaginationspitting.
And I was like, okay, this is anovel I was born to write.
Immigrant success story, comingback and dealing with the
politics, and somehow finding ahappy ending.

(07:28):
That's very, very cool.
I love it.
So it chills up my sign.
That's cool.
So when I got home, and it'slike I just checked before we
spoke that my novel is stillamong the top ten novels about
the Caribbean ever.
It's like a must-read beforetraveling to the Caribbean.
There's a must-read novel forbasically every region in the
world.
There's 10 for South America, 10for Africa, 10 for Asia, 10 for

(07:49):
Latin America, and there's 10for the Caribbean, and my novel.
That novel is still among thetop 10.
The novel I wrote was called GodLoves Haiti, my earthquake
novel.
But the Sakura novel was in myback burner.
So after the mission, afterHaiti, after I got home and
recovered from my humanitarianmission, got reacquainted with
my wife and kids, got some sleepfor two months.

(08:10):
I woke up and said, no, I shouldwrite the earthquake novel
first.
So I wrote the earthquake novelin 2011, published it in 2015,
it did well.
But before when I sold it in2013, 2014 was the, it takes 18
months to publish a novel.
So when they buy it, before itgets to the stores, 18 months.

(08:31):
And just like it's just likewith movies, by the time a movie
makes it to theaters, it wasfinished a year and a half ago.
The ramp up takes a year.
The ramp up for a novel takes 18months.
So during that 18 months windowbefore publishing the Earthquake
novel, I said, what do I do now?
Well, I have a little piece ofchange from the book deal.
Let's get back to the soccernovel.
And oh wait, Haiti's hosting theWorld Cup.

(08:53):
Let's go to Haiti to Brazil.
Let's go, no, Brazil's hostingthe World Cup.
Let's go to Brazil for threeweeks to check out the vibes.
My wife blessed her heart, letme go.
And I spent three weeks inBrazil researching the book.
Came back, wrote 40 pages, andthe plot is really a man on that
row.
A man on death row in the gulagin Haiti after having offended

(09:16):
the dictator of Haiti in the1950s, wondering, wait, how did
I go from privileged, rich kid,Colombia student, soccer star in
Brazil, to a gulag in Haiti.
And then he tells his story.
I wrote the first 20 pages abouta guy on death row going, what

(09:38):
the hell happened to me?
And then I had to go on tour topromote the first book.
Okay.
And to promote the first book,that tour started in January
2015.
The book was so successful, ittook me 10 years.
It took me a world tour.
I toured the world many timespromoting that book.
It took 10 years before thatdied down.
And then around 2022, 2023, Isaid, look, let's go back to the

(10:01):
soccer novel.
I need to fuck I need to finishwriting the soccer novel and I
need to publish it before thenext World Cup.
So I wrote I locked myself in anAirbnb in Martinique, the
Caribbean island, in the end of2022.
And I spent two years justlocked in a room or on the beach
writing this book.

(10:22):
And I finished it in early 2024,put it to publisher at the end
of 2024, and that was coming outbefore the World Cup of 2026.

SPEAKER_00 (10:33):
You mentioned already April.
Yeah, and and the book's goingto be released, you said May
12th.
May 12th.
Okay.
In exactly five weeks.
All right.
And the World Cup starts inmiddle of June, June 13th.
Yeah, I can see why the timingwould be would be important.
You said you said so many thingsin there that just like I've
never heard, I'm not aware of,as far as the turnaround time to

(10:55):
from once you finish a bookuntil it actually gets released.
You were talking about touringaround, promoting the book for
years, it sounds like.
I get that.
I guess I want to hear a littlebit more about the earthquake
book as well.
Hello, hello.
I Yep.

(11:17):
I I'd like to hear a little bitmore about the earthquake book,
if you don't mind.
What was kind of the plot of thecharacters adult?

SPEAKER_03 (11:24):
Yeah.
That book is dear to my heart.
And it's probably gonna be thebook I'm most remembered for.
If I probably published 10 otherbooks.
Because it was the book that Iwas in Haiti after the
earthquake.
I've been trying to write aboutHaiti for a long time.
Even though I was born in Haiti,but I grew up in New York City
and I lived in Switzerland for20 years.

(11:47):
So while in Switzerland, I had atwo-year-old son.
Once my son was born, I waslike, okay, I gotta write a
book.
So he knows his dad had morethan fun travels for his life.
Caring about some things.
And had a vision of the worldthat I wanted to share.
But it gave him a sense ofhumor.

(12:10):
It's one of those weirdestthings.
It's lots of dark comedies,obviously, because the country
has been terribly poor andunstable for since its founding.
And by since before itsfounding, but since its founding
has been terribly poor andunstable, yet very proud and
very resilient.
Now the resilience can beexplored in many different ways.
Some of my favorite writersexplore resilience in war times

(12:33):
with great trauma and with greatsadness.
I decided my way would bethrough romance.
I experienced what makes us whatkeeps us out of bed.
What gets us out of bed?
I decided I'd focus on romanceas one of the drivers that keeps
us out of bed, even when we'rebroke, even when we're scared,
even when we're traumatized.

(12:54):
And when I was in Haiti afterthe earthquake in 2010, after
being away for 24 years, I sawsigns of romance after a couple
of months.
I saw couples holding hands.
I saw a wedding in a refugeecamp.
Three million people, the citywas destroyed, three million
people lived in refugee camps inthe middle of the city, 200,000
people died, and I helped buryall 200,000 people.

(13:17):
But in the middle of thatburial, in the middle of all
that grief, I saw people fall inlove.
And I thought, oh, this is anovel.
My novel would be about howhumor and romance exists in
spaces that are tragic.

SPEAKER_00 (13:33):
We don't even like I can't speak for everybody, but I
don't even think about that whenI think about the Haiti
earthquake or other largetraumatic events that have
happened in the world.
You think of, you know, thingsthat happened during World War
II, or there's there's so manythings, things that are
happening in parts of Africaright now.
Yeah, it doesn't even occur tome to think about the romance.

(13:57):
You just you just look at it'sjust pure survival.
Nothing else is happening there.
They're just trying to survive.
Um, that's an interesting angle.

SPEAKER_03 (14:05):
And it's worth exploring because fortunately,
great writers and great artistshave been writing about war and
death since literature wasinvented.
The first ever lone poem, butthe first ever novel is the
Odyssey.

SPEAKER_01 (14:22):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 (14:23):
About a man leaving Ithaca, his island in Greece, to
go fight a war.
Odysseus leaves his wife andkid, Penelope and his son, to go
w fight a war across theMediterranean for Greece, and
stays fighting for 10 years andthen comes back home and
discovers that his wife hadchanged, his family had changed,

(14:43):
has to pick up the pieces.
That's like the first novelever.
Right.
Homer is the Iliad and theOdyssey.
And the Odyssey is such a umcanonical and foundational story
that is it's gonna be a moviethis summer by Christopher
Nolan.
Okay, same director who did umOppenheimer.
So looking at how people handlefamily and war has been going

(15:06):
around since Homer and theOdyssey and Shakespeare picked
up on it.
All Shakespeare's novels arebasically about kings trying to
get laid.
Through war and through peaceand through and um and fast
forward to a 21st century.
Some of the greatest books everand movies were made about World

(15:27):
War II.
And one of the greatest, TheEnglish Patient, written by a
novel.
It's a novel, you know, it'sbased on a novel by a writer
named Michael Dajek, who's SriLankan but lives in Canada and
was a poet by training.
But he read this amazing novelabout adultery during World War
II in the Sahara.

(15:48):
Okay.
And Graham Green wrote amazingnovels about adultery in Haiti,
in Panama, in Vietnam.
For some reason, they'recheating bastards wherever you
go.
Yep.
And by coincidence, a lot ofthese writers were Catholic, and
a lot of Catholic literaturefrom Dante's Divine Comedy, all
the way through Graham Green andall the way through my books and

(16:12):
other books by Haitian writers,at the core, Catholic tests,
Catholic writers exploring theCatholic issues, which is family
betrayal, redemption.
Right.
So there's a long tradition ofthis, and I just joined that
tradition.
So God loves Haiti is about awoman torn between her husband,
who happens to be the presidentof Haiti, and her lover, who

(16:35):
happens to be a young, ambitiousguy her age.
But after the earthquake, thepresident, the husband who she
didn't respect much, grows someballs.
And the young guy that sheloved, she can't find him.
She doesn't know if he survivedor not.
So she's wracked with guilt.
So she travels for a prince inthe wreckage of Poor Prince,
trying to find the guy she, theguy she loved, and in the

(16:58):
process finds herself.
But does she want to live Haiti?
Does she want to leave in Haiti?
Does she want to does she wantto leave Haiti?
Um, does she want to get back toher Catholic roots or does she
want to be an adulterous wife?
Does she want to love herhusband or leave her husband?
Suppose this guy is alive.
Does she really dealing withthose questions of whether to
stay or to leave?
And what is the honorable thingto do after surviving a tragedy?

(17:21):
That's what Calab's Haiti isabout.
But it's a comedy because it isabout an adulterous woman trying
to find Anita in a haystack, theguy that she thinks she killed,
whose heart she broke.
And the novel goes betweendifferent chapters, one by her,
one by her husband, one aboutone from the perspective of her
husband, who doesn't know she'sbeen cheating on him, but slowly
figures it out.

(17:41):
And one chapter about her lover,who thinks she's dead and who's
depressed, because he's hurtfrom the earthquake, physically
hurt, and he's like, Why do Ihave to live?
He went from being a stud beforethe earthquake to being a
depressed, wounded guy after theearthquake.
So that's the novel's aboutthree people who survived this
thing, whose morale is indifferent places after the

(18:04):
thing, and where are they gonnaend up?
Are they gonna end up with eachother or separately?
Or not.
So that looking for how love canoperate in a war setting, in a
natural disaster setting, whichis why I do in that novel, has
been done before.
Has been done by Gabriel GarciaMarquez, the great Colombian
writer, who has lived in MexicoCity when he wrote his great

(18:27):
novel, including A Hundred Yearsof Solitude.

SPEAKER_00 (18:29):
He lived in Mexico City at that time?
Yes, most of his life he livedin Mexico City.
I didn't even know that.
I mean, uh I've spent a lot oftime in Colombia.
I've read in Spanish some of hisworks that it's not easy.
I've been told it's not theeasiest books to read if you're
practicing span practicingSpanish, but I did not know
that.
Okay, all right, that that'sinteresting.

SPEAKER_03 (18:50):
I know when he became huge, he was too big for
Colombia.
So, like many writers, he he hisrefuge was another country.
So he lived in Mexico City.
That's interesting.
And many people do that.
Hemingway never lived in NewYork.
He lived in Spain, he's been inFrance, and he lived in Cuba.

SPEAKER_00 (19:07):
Let's discuss that.
That's an interesting concept Ihadn't thought about, but I
heard you say that you were inMartinique for two years.

SPEAKER_03 (19:14):
Yes, I left myself in the Airbnb in Martinique to
write the soccer novel becausethe Haiti novel came out in
2015.
It was popular.
I I made the rounds and Ipublished very late.
I published in about 45.
So I'm a very late bloomer.
So I'm thinking I'm a one-hitwonder.
I'm just gonna ride this out.

(19:34):
As long as somebody asked me todo press, I'm doing press.
I just was gonna milk it untilpeople stop inviting me.
Alright.
I was a one-hit wonder, and plusI got a new appreciation of life
from doing humanitarian work andseeing the death and suffering
in countries like Haiti afterthe earthquake.
Because since then I worked inAfrica quite extensibly in the

(19:56):
Middle East.
Right.
I've seen a lot of things, and Iwanted to share the message
that, you know, Cope DM.

SPEAKER_00 (20:02):
Before we're gonna go into a lot of the stuff you
just touched on, but if youdon't mind, I would like to
stick on the part of you know,why Marquez would be in Mexico
City, or why you were why youwere in Martinique or why
Hemingway was in Cuba.
Is there something aboutchanging your environment,
living closer to your subject?

(20:23):
Why did why do so many writersgo somewhere completely
culturally different to immersethemselves while they write a
book?
And is it norm typically yeah, Ihave no idea.

SPEAKER_03 (20:35):
Tell me it's a great question.
It's a great question.
Looking back at um the historyof literature, and again about
my experiences, it'straditional.
Dante wrote the divine comedy.
Um, while in exile in northernItaly, Dante is famously from
Florence, and the Middle Ages,he was Florence lost the war

(20:56):
with another with Rome orsomething.
So him and his political partywere exiled to Milan.
While in Milan, he was piningfor Florence.
So he wrote a long poem abouthow other people who kicked him
out of Florence should be inhell or purgatory.

(21:16):
And heaven is reuniting with thelove of his life who's from
Florence, Beatrice.
Um he created, he wrote thefirst book that described what
heaven and purgatory could belike, and what hell could be
like.
And his images, his depiction ofhell, the greedy, you know, and
the and his depiction of helland purgatory became lasted for

(21:38):
centuries.
Pictures and movies that showhell and heaven, he invented
this.
And he wrote that in like 1077,and he wrote it in exile.
So homesickness may be one ofthose things that's at the root
of many great works.
I write about Haiti.
I lived in Haiti for about fiveyears from the ages 60, from the

(22:00):
ages eight to 14.
But I'm only writing aboutHaitians because I find I find
uh their existence fascinatingbecause they live 100 miles from
America, poorest country in theworld, next to the richest
country in the world.
We have intimate relationshipsbetween America and the US.
Nothing happens in Haiti thatWashington does not decide, not

(22:22):
for hundreds of years.
And yet we've grown richer,Haiti's grown poorer.
And how do you handle that?
And I find that fascinating,even though I wrote the first
book in Switzerland.
And then the second book, I gotthe inspiration, I had the free
time, and I was like, okay, I'mgonna finally gonna get it done.
I got my I was in Martinique fora book festival for the first

(22:44):
book, and the welcome inMartinique was so nice.
The people loved the first bookso much.
I'm like, you know what?
You guys deserve a second book.
I'm gonna write a second bookjust for you guys, because you
love the first book so much.
I'm gonna get over my writer'sblock.
I'm gonna stop being a one-hitwonder, I'm gonna get this
Airbnb and stay and write a newbook.
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (23:04):
Know if we want to I don't know how far you want to
go into your personal life, butI don't know.
Earlier I heard you say you wentto Brazil for a few weeks, and
you specifically mentioned mywife said I could go or let me
go or something like that.
It's one thing to take off forthree weeks and go to Brazil to
research a book.
What a how how you know you knowwhere I'm going with this.

SPEAKER_03 (23:25):
Yes.
Needless to say, the first bookwas not really helpful to my
marriage.
Um those three weeks in Brazil,she let me go, and when I came
back, she was like, You suck.
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (23:38):
You left me alone with the two kids.

SPEAKER_00 (23:42):
This is a warning to all just people.
It goes both ways.
But yeah, when your partnersays, Yeah, sure, baby, go for
three weeks.
Yes, yes, have fun.
That it doesn't always meanthat's what they're thinking,
right?

SPEAKER_03 (23:56):
No, no, no.
And plus, there's gonna bebuyer's remorse or
philanthropist remorse orlover's remorse.
She let me go to Haiti for threemonths after the earthquake.
Within two weeks, she was like,dude, the kids are killing me
here.
I'm like, I'm burying 200,000people here.
And I live in a town.
Yeah, but you're in theCaribbean, I'm stuck here with
the two.

(24:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, so that became a recurringtheme.
So I'm gonna do it.
And of course, then you do this,and then you can recurring
things.
You publish a book, and it'sreally about you.
Books are not collaborative likemovies are and music is, um,
like many of the other arts are.
The performing arts, there's apractice session.
People, your partner, yourlovers can see you practice.
Yeah, they could come to the setof your movie and share an

(24:40):
opinion.
They could come to your atelierand see your painting and be
like, oh, you're using a lightof red this time around.
Yeah.
They feel like they're they'repart of the process.
A novel, not so much.
A novel is much more likealienating.

SPEAKER_00 (24:54):
Yeah, it it I don't know, but it feels like, okay,
leave me alone.
I'm writing, I'm working on mynovel, and you're in a room
somewhere or a different countryor an Airbnb.

SPEAKER_03 (25:03):
You're in the basement.
You're in the basement, everyonegoes to sleep.
I wrote that first book between11 p.m.
and six in the morning when thewife and kids went to sleep on
Friday nights and Saturdaynights, 11 p.m., 6 a.m.
At 6 a.m.
Um Saturday mornings, my songets up to go pee.
He was about six or eight at thetime.

(25:24):
I'm like, oh, that's my time togo to bed.
Okay, I go to bed.
The wife would wake up, I takethem skiing all day Saturday.
I sleep all day, revise, theycome home from skiing, we have
dinner, uh, we watch a movie,they go to bed, 11 p.m.
Saturday night, I go back towork.
Oh, you don't have to be able todo that.

SPEAKER_00 (25:42):
Sound like a fun like a fun husband during that
stage.

SPEAKER_03 (25:45):
I'm not I'm not knocking.
Actually, many husbands havehobbies.
Yeah.
You know, they're in the garage,tinkering on a, you know,
mailing, making an almoir.
People have hobbies.
Yeah, yeah.
And at the time, I had a regularday job.
I was at the UN.
So that's Dimitri spending allnight working on his novel.
That's so cute.
That's a midlife crisishappening.

(26:07):
Uh-huh.
But lo and behold, it was good.
Lo and behold, they found agreat publisher.
And lo and behold, audiencesliked it.
Yeah.
And that was a game changer.
Sunny, the little hobby becamethis other thing.
And suddenly it's like, I didn'tsign up for this.

unknown (26:23):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (26:23):
And I'm sitting there, like, this is my dream
come true.
I'll hit the lottery.

SPEAKER_00 (26:27):
Mm-hmm.
And she wasn't.

SPEAKER_03 (26:29):
It turns out she wasn't coming.

SPEAKER_00 (26:31):
Yeah.
Is that a common thing withwriters to have relationship
issues?
Because everything you justdescribed, I'm like, oh.
Yeah, I can I can see somepossible issues.

SPEAKER_03 (26:42):
There isn't.
Hemiway had four wives.

SPEAKER_00 (26:45):
Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (26:46):
Guess, yeah.
Grand Green had a thousandmistresses.
Fitzgerald had one wife whohated him, his fame, which drove
him to drink and suicide.
Well, drink by suicide.
Suicide by drinking.
It's not a collaborative art.
It's not even that remunerative,but it's quite rewarding.
Because you telling jokes toyourself for hours on end.

(27:10):
And I'm a fast writer.
Like I wrote the first book inabout a year.
Like 10 months.
I had a wife and two kids.
I couldn't be dicking around foryears.
The second one, I dicked aroundfor 10 years.
Because I was in no hurry, Ialready did my Magnum opus.
But then when it's time to brasstag to write it, I got that
Airbnb.
I was freshly divorced.

(27:31):
Mm-hmm.
And I wrote a little bit on abeach, and within a year it was
done.

unknown (27:37):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (27:38):
And do you within a year it was done.
So let's what I heard youearlier say was a lot of writers
will write in either exile orsomewhere.
You mentioned the termhomesickness.
And and when you said that, soI've been traveling full-time
for four and a half years.
Um doing this digital nomadthing.
And one that probably my biggestproblem to solve at this point

(28:02):
in my life is a potentialisolation.
It's part of why I do thepodcast, so I can connect with
people, have conversations.
Ooh, that's interesting,actually.
I'm I'm going through this stuffin my head.
But the but the point is there'sthat isolation, that loneliness,
that discomfort of being in aplace that maybe is fascinating
and people think, oh, you're solucky to be there, but there's

(28:23):
always that discomfort.
And I'm I'm sensing that maybeit's that discomfort, that
isolation, that loneliness thatkind of maybe torments the brain
a little bit.
I don't know if torments theright word.
And I'm not trying to put wordsin your mouth.

SPEAKER_03 (28:39):
Yeah.
What I would say is when you'reout of your element, when you're
in a foreign country,especially, or out of your
hometown, you find it's verycommon to find your purpose.
Like, why am I here?
The question became more acuteto me when I lived in
Switzerland.
I lived in the heart ofSwitzerland, the heart of

(29:00):
Europe, running as a Europeanfamily, with this very
international community.
But what's the point?
Yeah.
What's the point?
What's the point of me?
And that question is less acutein your hometown.
Because in your hometown, yourfamily or old friends always
remind you, or always remindingyou who you are.
Who they think.
You went to this high school.

(29:20):
Yeah, yeah.
You went to this high school.
You're the son of, you're thedaughter of.
Your cousins are definitelyreminding you, your siblings are
always reminding you, too,you're my kid brother.
No more, no less.

SPEAKER_00 (29:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (29:30):
And your family does that.
They do this check in, theycheck you in that regard.
Um, but when you're out of yourelement, there's no check.
You get to reinvent yourself.
But it just so happens along theway, you also look at what's
good about where you came from.
What's worth keeping?
Yeah.
What's from your hometown?
What are the things from yourfamily, from your dad and your

(29:52):
granddad and your ancestors, andtheir journey?
And especially if we'reAmerican, most Americans can
trace their roots to some othercountry.
So, what did it your ancestorsbring to you that used to
carrying with you?
And when you're out and about,what about those things are you
carrying with you?
Like it turns out I had aconcierge show me this, a

(30:13):
Haitian guy um in a building Ilived in in Miami at one point,
and we used to chat in French.
And he's like, at the time, he'slike, Your French sucks.
I'm like, why?
Because you sound like a NewYorker.
So it turns out, whateverlanguage I speak, I speak like a
New Yorker.

SPEAKER_01 (30:27):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (30:27):
Yeah.
I cut off the end of my words.
I curse.
And you can't stop being a NewYorker.
So over the years, you travelaround, I pick up all these
other languages, I pick up newaccents, I get better with my
accents.
But everywhere you go, everybodyknows you're a New Yorker on
some level.
You walk into a room, you lookpeople in the eye, oh shit, you

(30:48):
must be a New Yorker.
Yeah.
And you become more of a NewYorker the further you you you
live away from New York.
I found.
I became more Haitian thefurther I lived away from
America and the Caribbean.
I was like, oh man, you knowwhat?
My country is not so bad.
Haiti is 10 million people,Switzerland has 10 million
people, Sweden has 10 millionpeople.

(31:09):
They're proud.
We have reasons to be proud.
Everybody in Europe would belike, well, America is so
racist, but no, no, no.
Obama's president.
Calm down.
Where's your Obama?

SPEAKER_01 (31:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (31:21):
Where's your Obama?
You don't have an Obama.
And you've been around longerthan the US.
Oh, yeah, but now it's likeTrump.
Obama still happened.

SPEAKER_01 (31:28):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (31:29):
Mary King still happened.
Where's your Mary King?
Where's your Obama?
Where's your Bob Marty?
Yep.
I mean, Jamaicans could alwayshang their hat on that.
And nobody unifies the worldborn in Bob Marty's music.
And he lived a very brief life.
So you I start to appreciate alot of things about the
Caribbean, about America, thatboldness, the adventurousness,

(31:54):
the polyglotness, themulticulturalism, um, the
constant struggle.
You know, now the Nazis are incharge, but before that, you
know, Luke Skywalker was incharge.
It'll flip-flop again.
But we do these things.
I became appreciative of Americaand the Caribbean the longer I
lived in Switzerland.

SPEAKER_00 (32:15):
It's very it's a very interesting thing that
these are kind of thoughts thathave been rolling around in my
head, but I haven't been able toformulate them.
So it's such a pleasure to chatwith you that you've got this
way with words and anddescribing.
Do you have kids?
I do.
Yeah.
I've got a uh a 19-year-old sonand a 29-year-old daughter.

SPEAKER_03 (32:34):
I have a 20-year-old daughter and a 24-year-old son.
Yeah.
Another thing, too, my son wasborn in 2002.
I had just about turn 30.
And I was like, is my legacygonna be Dimitri had a cool
resume and a lot of passportstamps?
Or is my legacy gonna be a bodyof work that tells him, This is
what I love?

SPEAKER_01 (32:54):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (32:54):
This is who I am.
You get to decide who you are.
I wrote God loves Haiti.
It's an absurd title, it's ahead structure title, but I did
that.
You're gonna hear about Haitifrom the headlines, from your
colleagues, from your friends,and you're really gonna hear
anything good about Haiti.
Well, you know what?

(33:15):
Turns out there are good thingsabout Haiti.
Turns out I had a good timethere.
Turns out my parents met and hadme there.
And that must have been a lovestory.
That must have been a nice lovestory.
Turns out the population ofHaiti went from six million when
I was a kid to ten million in2020.
People were having sex, peoplehaving babies, and grown
families.

(33:35):
So the longer I lived abroad,the more I'm raising kids like
in Switzerland who are notSwiss.
None of us were Swiss.
But I'm raising kids far awayfrom their roots, far away from
my roots.
I felt like I had to give them asense of my roots that they
could take with them.

(33:56):
They could read and explorewhere I'm alive and when I'm get
it.

SPEAKER_00 (34:00):
I I love that you asked if I had kids, and and
then you were sharing that and Iwas reflecting on it's it might
sound cheesy to people.
Like I've got people in myfamily that you mentioned your
ex-wife was kind of like, oh,he's doing his novel thing.
Sometimes in my mind, my friendsand family think Jason is doing
his podcast thing, you know, andthey don't understand maybe why

(34:22):
I'm doing it.
Sometimes I don't evenunderstand why I'm doing it.
But when I reflect on my kids,like I love the idea that my son
would sit there and listen tothese episodes.
I don't think he does.
He's 19.
He's got a lot of things on hismind.
Girls, work, whatever.
But I've always appreciated thefact that at some point I'm
gonna have this long series ofconversations with people that I

(34:45):
respect, I admire, I feel likegot connection with, and the
idea of my kids going back andlistening to these episodes and
seeing dad was like talking tocool people.
Dad was talking to interestingpeople, having interesting
conversations.
He helped people bring out theirstories.
And then the guest scared, hewas curious, yeah, you know, and

(35:06):
yeah, he gave people theirvoices, yeah, helped others.
Yeah.
As opposed to, you know, I dosome website design that stuff
that I enjoy.
But you know what?
I I could build a beautifulwebsite and and then if you
know, in a couple years somebodyelse gets hired to replace an
update and it's gone.

(35:26):
But these these conversationswill be there forever.
And I'm gonna, you know, I coulddo everything I can to make sure
they're there forever.
Yeah.
So I I get that.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (35:34):
That's the media by the media.

SPEAKER_00 (35:35):
Yeah.

unknown (35:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (35:36):
I was a journalist.
And um, I was a journalist, Iwas a major and undergrad at St.
John's University here inQueens.
And then I became a journalistvery early on, publishing in
national magazines, writingabout music, and then eventually
writing about the tech world.
And I remember when I went tograd school to get to
international relations and toget into humanitarianism, I was
being recruited by um by thegovernment quite a bit.

(35:58):
Because I went to a school ofgovernment for masters in public
administration.
The government agencies werelike, okay, we want you to come
work in our communicationsdepartment, work in our media
communic uh department, help uswork in our intelligence
department, help us, you know,get information and help advance
the country's and country'sgoals.
And I was like, I already have awife and kid.
I did grad school very late.

(36:19):
So I'm like, I'm used to doing apublic-facing career as a
journalist.
I publish regularly, and my kidscan read it, and my friends know
what I do for a living.
If I'm in the government doingintelligence work, nobody knows
what I'm doing.
And you're not really supposedto tell anyone what you're
doing.
I'm lying left and right.
Uh, it's too late.
If I'm 22, the idea of that kindof obscurity works.

(36:41):
At 32, no, I want to share myideas with the world.
Yeah.
And with my kids and my familyto be proud of what I do.
Yeah.

unknown (36:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (36:50):
And so going to so there's something about being in
the media and producingpublic-facing work.
Um, that's rewarding and that'sgonna last and that's enduring.
When from journalists tonovelists, I found to be great
fun because a journalist, you'renot supposed to be funny.
Right.
But a novelist, you can make funabout adultery.

(37:11):
You can make fun about death.
You could make fun about howpeople grieve.
You can make fun about howpeople have sex, you can make
fun of how people fall in love.
How people fall out of love.
You could actually make fun ofstuff that is that's painful,
but that people could recognizethemselves in.

SPEAKER_00 (37:27):
Yeah.
I get that.
Hey, I have a personalityquestion.
You've probably thought about itmore than I have, or maybe not,
maybe it's not even relevant.
When I think of journalists,people that go into journalism
school, and I I don't I don'tknow, I might be wrong.
Because you mentioned put frontfacing, public facing, and I'm

(37:48):
thinking those are people thatkind of like to be, I don't
know, maybe like to be in thespotlight.
Yeah, extrovert.
That's exactly where I was goingwith that.
But then I think of novelists,like just before I had this
conversation with you, I thinkof a novelist, I think of an
extreme introvert.
Yes.
How does that work?

SPEAKER_03 (38:07):
Tell me more.
I don't know.
I'm winging it.
Yeah um my people who were closeto me could better answer that.
My wife and girlfriends couldbetter answer that.

SPEAKER_00 (38:21):
They're gonna be on the next episode.
I don't know if we told youthat.
We're doing a surprise episode,Dimitri's.

SPEAKER_03 (38:26):
Going from extreme social, because people are keep
going from extreme social toextreme hermit.
Um, it's kind of a bit of a whipwhiplash.
Um, it's whiplash.
And you have to have both sidesof personality.
I've been uh it's been Lent.
It's Catholic season, it's Lent,it's Holy Week, Easter is
Sunday.
Doing holy week, doing Lent, 40days, just like it's just like

(38:48):
um Ramadan.
40 days of no partying, nobooze, no sex, no well.
Well, 40 days of reflection andno partying.
And holy week, no sex.
I have a friend in Martini whotold me his wife was like, dude,
not this week.
And now again, like wow.

(39:08):
That's what you said last week.
Exactly.
But I find blend to be a greatperiod to lock into my work.
Yeah.
Lock into your work and having apartner with who could
understand is tricky, man.
It's tricky.
And you write, and I'm writingabout people who were in my
past.
People I miss, ideas ofadventures that I never had, but

(39:33):
they are reflection onadventures that I've wondered
about through time.
Um, I'm never writing aboutwhere I am and the people I'm
with.
And they all want that.
They want that.
They want you to write aboutthem.
They want that.
Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 (39:50):
A woman will see what you and hopes that you end
up in your novel.
Okay.
I shouldn't say this, but Ithink I just came up with a new
hobby.
All right.

SPEAKER_03 (39:59):
Writing novels, that is.
There's nothing fun aboutwriting novels.
There's nothing fun about theindustry of making a living off
novels, but there is fun abouthaving a novel in a bookstore.

SPEAKER_00 (40:11):
Yeah.
I couldn't because I heardsomeone say there's the
difference between a writer andan author has something, and I
don't know, I might have gotthis this quote wrong, but an
author has something in abookstore type of thing.
Is that that common thought?
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (40:27):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, more books have beenpublished and written in the
last 10 years since the internetthan the history of man.
But the percentage that ends upin bookstores is like 1%.
Okay.
That's the percent.
And the book industry is a verylarge industry.
It's like$130 billion, projectedto grow to$180 billion in the

(40:49):
next 10 years.
People read books.
Bookstores are thriving.
But the percentage of what'swritten and what ends up in
bookstores is like minuscule.
Okay.
It's like with music.
People are recording music leftand right now on their laptops.
But the percentage that ends upin Spotify, minuscule.

SPEAKER_00 (41:07):
Help what you said about the book industry growing,
bookstores doing well, it feelsa little counterintuitive to me.
You're much closer to it.
I suspect it soundscounterintuitive to a lot of
people listening because we knowwhat happened in newspapers and
magazines.
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (41:26):
But they provided a temporary jolt of culture, while
books provide an enduring formof culture.
So one thing that's grown thelast 20 years as the internet
has devoured most media, museumattendance has grown.
Really?
The Louvre, the Met.
Well, okay.
Roma.
Thriving.

(41:47):
Thriving.
The Louvre is so popular, theyopen a Louvre Abu Dhabi.
They open like a Guggenheim inSpain.
Like museums are thriving.

SPEAKER_00 (41:56):
Is that because of is that because people post
social media photos ofthemselves standing in the
courtyard at the Louvre?

SPEAKER_03 (42:04):
I think while people have been moving a lot of their
lives online, the people offlinehave been extremely offline.
The museums have become morepopular.
I mean, Taylor Swift and Beyoncemade billion dollars on their
last tours.
Like no one did that before.
Why are people going toconcerts?

(42:25):
Why are you going to concertswhen concert tickets cost two
grand, three grand now to go seeTaylor Swift?

SPEAKER_02 (42:33):
People go.
The NFL, British football,hundred thousand people
stadiums.

SPEAKER_03 (42:39):
Why?
When you could do everything inyour comfort of your living
life.
Oh, there's a nice yin and yingoing on between the online life
and offline life.
So bookstores are thriving.
There are great photo apps.
They're a great way to spend theevening.
They're a great place for moms,stay-at-home moms to bring their
kids to hang out.
And one thing authors can giveyou that AI can't give you is

(43:01):
the backstory.
An AI novel does not have abackstory.
A self-published novel does nothave the same self-published
writers don't end up inbookstores.
There's enough published writersfor bookstores to have a
different book signing everynight.
So you won't meet them inperson.
Okay, I got it.
While somebody who's never beento Haiti, um, who's not even

(43:22):
Catholic, they read my book,they were moved by it.
I'm sp I'm signing books intheir town, they want to come
and be like, dude, really?
Why you write so well aboutwomen and adultery?
How did that I mean, did thathow did your wife react to that?
Well, not well.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (43:40):
You mean by ex-wife?
She finally found out what I wasdoing for at 11 o'clock at night
every Friday night, writingabout adultery.
So a computer won't have abackstory to their novel.
Okay.
Alright.
That's interesting.
And and as you describe that,I'm like, yeah, I've always
thought bookstores were a coolplace to just go hang out.

(44:01):
I've probably spent more timethan I feel good about sitting
in bookstores and reading booksand not always buying them.

SPEAKER_03 (44:09):
Speak at schools.
I've been speaking at schoolsaround the world since for more
than 10 years now.
Whenever I go speak to a class,and at many grades too, ninth
grade to 12th grade university,teachers always prep the class
by having them read a chapter ofmy book.
Inevitably I show up, and thishas been in like the ghetto,
this has been in the Sahara.

(44:31):
When I show up and posh privateschools, of the 30 kids in the
class, five will have read theentire book.
Not just a chat.
Yeah, that's good.
I think that sounds great,right?
And whenever I see these fivekids, I'm like, oh, I was you
when I was 14.
I would have been one of thosefive kids.
So in any group of 30 kids,there's five who love print, who

(44:54):
love to read, who could actuallyput away their phone and read a
book from beginning to end andfeel good about it.
And those five.
Kids out of 30 have existedsince the dawn of time.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (45:08):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (45:09):
The people who are capable of lock in and read an
entire book, or lock in and goto a museum and actually paint.
And people who appreciatepainting.
Mm-hmm.
Because writers are are are justreflection of readers.
And there's a million there'slike a billion readers out
there.
Those five kids out of thirtygrow up to be adults who become
five out of thirty who do bookclubs.

SPEAKER_00 (45:29):
And you know, I I don't know what it's like.
It's been a while since I'vebeen in New York City, but I've
spent a lot of time in someother cities and uh other parts
of the world.
And you can see those those fiveout of thirty when you get on
the metro.
There's that person.
There's everybody else is ontheir phone, and there's that
one person standing up with abackpack on, a bag of groceries

(45:53):
wrapped over their arm, andthere's reading a book.
And it's like, oh, that person'sa little different, and not in a
bad way.
Like in a really good way.
I grew up with my my dad's areader, I'm a reader, and my dad
was a big reader too.
Yeah, I shouldn't say this, butbut he used to drive down the

(46:14):
freeway.
Like back in the day when wewere young.
You know, my brother and I wereprobably, I don't know, 11, 12,
10 years old, whatever.
In the back of the pickup truck.
This was just midway across thecountry.
We just traveled, we traveledacross the states.
He was a balloon pilot.
We would go from town to townfor balloon festivals on the
weekends.
But he would be driving downthat freeway, reading, you know,

(46:37):
with my brother and I in theprobably in the back of the
truck.
Of course, not strapped like inthe back of the pickup truck.
You know, 75 miles an hour downthe interstate through Kansas.
And he'd be sitting there with abook, reading a book as he was
driving.
And it was, I just that's amemory.

SPEAKER_02 (46:55):
Yeah.
I'll read a couple of chapters.

SPEAKER_00 (47:00):
I know, and and now we're like, I mean, I get it,
but like if I like if my sonsees me glance at my phone, if
he's in the car with me and Iglance at my phone by looking at
the map, you know, they're like,quit looking at your phone, quit
looking at your phone.
Mine too.
And mine too.
No idea what it was like when Iwas growing up with my, you

(47:20):
know, he might have even had adrink between his legs
sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 (47:24):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (47:24):
You know, it's avid readers exist.
Last night I went to the PanAmerica Um Literary Awards, like
the Oscars for books.
Uh-huh.
And it was packed.
Everybody was well dressed andbeautiful, and the winners all
were people who wrote books umor translated books in
countries, about countries thatthey're not even from.

(47:47):
Oh, really?
And like one guy who won atranslator award for a novel set
in Argentina, and he's clearlyfrom Iowa.
You saw that a lot.
It's in the culture of peoplewho who are curious, who travel
to want to connect with thepeople locally and either get
their stories out by translationor write their stories.

SPEAKER_00 (48:10):
And that's been going on for a long time.
When you say get their storiesout, you're talking a little bit
about translation.
And it's not my haven't reallyconsidered.

SPEAKER_03 (48:18):
Translation, I mean, you could even take it a step
further.
My next novel is gonna be set inZurich.
It's gonna be about a Swissbanker.
A private banker who's not Swissbut who's running a Swiss bank.
Because the idea of somebodywho's not Swiss running a Swiss
bank lends itself to so muchcomedy.
And that kind of disconnectexists in all art and across the
world.
Okay.

(48:40):
Whenever I'm trying to get ajob, I do corporate comms on the
side.
It's like I'm always a fish outof water.
And because I'm permanently afish out of water, I'm
permanently seeing stories aboutbeing a fish out of water.

SPEAKER_00 (48:50):
Yeah, okay.
And I celebrate that.
And you said you said somethinglike people getting their
stories out through translation.
I think I don't know if I gotthe exact wording.

SPEAKER_03 (49:01):
For example, for example, you read Spanish.
Yeah.
Well, it's totally makingSpanish, and you could write it
in English.
You could read a book in Spanishthat's never been translated and
pitch it to a publisher andtranslate it into English.

SPEAKER_00 (49:14):
If if I read a book in Spanish, that's I I think I
here's where I'm going with thisis and it happens in just like
when I have conversations withpeople.
Because I understand probably atregular speed, I understand
about 50% of what they'resaying.
So the story in my head isalmost always completely

(49:36):
different than the story theywere telling me.
Right?
So if I read a book, I couldprobably go write a whole
completely brand new new novelbased on my understanding of
what I just read, and nobodyelse would look at the two and
say, oh, and that would be anoriginal work.

SPEAKER_02 (49:54):
That would be an original work.

SPEAKER_00 (49:56):
Because half of it would be completely made up in
my head based on what I thoughtI was reading that wasn't really
what I was reading.
That's an interesting concept.

SPEAKER_03 (50:03):
Now, Marquez lived in Mexico City most of his life,
but he wrote these beautifulnovels about sex and family
drama in Colombia.
Yeah, yeah.
While living in Mexico.
Like, you could write a Mexicannovel.
There isn't a limit.
So people write about becauseone thing, best advice I got
when I was going to writenovels.

(50:24):
So I had an agent.
My first agent, he liked a pieceI worked in the New York Times
about going to Haiti threemonths after the earthquake.
What Haiti was like three monthsafter the earthquake, after
being away for 24 years.
So I wrote an 800-word pieceabout visiting my old house,
being in the hospital where Iwas born, visiting the house, my
dad's house, the house where Igrew up in, and seeing it
fractured but still standing,reuniting with old friends, and

(50:47):
noticing that the cracks in thewalls of the house meant it
could come down on my head anyminute now.
Right.
So while we're hugging, heyDemetri, good to see you.
It's been so long.
I'm like, dude, we need to gooutside, or else we're gonna
die.
Right.
So I wrote that piece, my agentread it.
He's like, dude, you shouldwrite a book about this.
About what it's like to go backto Haiti after being away for 24
years as a humanitarian.

(51:09):
And I'm like, dude, I'm onmission now, it sucks.
I'm dealing with a lot of depth.
I'm translating opposites inthree languages, trying to raise
money to help Haiti and also letthe public know that we're doing
good work to help the people.
It's it's a contradiction, it'snot it's not it's
counterintuitive.
We're doing a good job, butplease give us money.

(51:29):
Yeah, we need more, right?
Yeah, that would be tough.
So you checked in with me everymonth, and when I get back to
home to Geneva, this is like inhe checks in again in November.
Dude, what are you thinkingabout book wise?
I'm like, you know what?
I'm gonna do a novel.
I just came back and we went, wevisited a friend of ours, an old

(51:49):
friend of ours, who just hermarriage just exploded because
she got caught cheated.
So I'm thinking about a novelabout adulteress in Haiti after
the earthquake.
And um, he's like, a novel?
I wanted you to write anonfiction book.
I'm like, yeah, but you know,that's what I'm feeling.
I don't want to write aboutmyself, but I'm gonna write

(52:11):
about other people.
That's why I see the funny.
And he goes, Alright, well, mypiece of advice to you, and this
is great advice, shout out toRobert, is a novel is all about
your voice.
If your voice is agreeable,pleasant, good company, you
could tell a reader any story,and the either will the reader

(52:33):
will file you file you for 300pages.
You have to be pleasant, youhave to be good company.
And that that was the magicaladvice.
That's all I needed to hear.
Because it makes sense.
People write about sciencefiction, people write about
aliens, people about Star Trek,people write about you know

(52:54):
magicians, people write aboutanything if it's agreeable on
the page.
If it makes you want to find outwhat's next, you just keep
turning pages, keep turningpages, keep turning pages.
That's interesting that freedomblew my mind.

SPEAKER_00 (53:11):
So after hearing that advice and you look back at
some of your favorite authors,did you immediately kind of see
it and agree?
Like, like Yeah.
Um was Hemingway agreeable?
Like I when I should Yeah, Idon't know.

SPEAKER_03 (53:25):
I've read his books, but I've never short sentences,
direct, and percussive.
So you keep on going.
The writers I love the most,Jose Saramago, Portuguese,
winner the Nobel Prize in 1983,he'll write a sentence that's
five pages long.
Oh wow, okay, and then thishappened, and then this

(53:47):
happened, and then thishappened, and then wow, and then
while his boss came in the room,and then okay, then you started
thinking about his wife, thenyou start thinking about shit,
he's talking about the boss'swife, and then and then he could
do that for 10 pages, and itworks.
And I read that and I thought,oh, I could do that.
That was more my style.
I started opting I could doHemingway, then I started doing
these novels where I could do asentence that asks us five

(54:09):
pages.
Then that's my style.
It's called maximalist.
Hemingway is the classicminimalist, it's the most
attractive.
Both styles are agreeable.

SPEAKER_00 (54:19):
But both styles are agreeable and that makes sense
because when I'm reading I liketo read a lot, and yeah, if I
feel like the person telling thestory is pleasant, I just assume
that it just feels pleasant tome because I like I feel like I
like the author.
Like you mentioned the bookstorething.
Like if I read a book from frontto end, probably the person that

(54:43):
wrote the book is somebody thatI'd want to meet in person.
Yeah, you you it's a really goodpoint because if I pick up a
book and I read 15 pages in andI'm like, I don't like this.
And then someone said, Oh, thisfamous author is gonna be at the
bookstore.
I'm like, Yeah, I I picked uphis book.
I didn't read the book.
I'm just not gonna feelconnection.
So that makes sense.

(55:03):
It makes complete sense.
I also remember someone sayingto me, or I read somewhere, it's
probably a famous quote that youknow, or maybe don't I don't
know if it's a famous quote.
I just remember readingsomewhere that, or someone said
that we read to discover we'renot alone in the world.
I don't know if that soundsfamiliar.
I just remember that it was thatwhen I read, it does.
I just feel like, oh, I feelseen, I feel heard.

(55:25):
Even it's not a book about me,but it just makes me feel like,
oh, this other character hassimilar thoughts and problems
and struggles and he nailed it.

SPEAKER_03 (55:34):
He nailed it.
And that's what that's whatwriters do, and that's what
writers that's why writing,lonely as it seems, hermit-like
as it seems, it's like throwinga party.
But I write about people whosuffer and find found fun in
their pain somehow.
And when I'm seeing this to doit, I'm I'm creating a world of

(55:57):
people, a hero and her boyfriendand her cousin, and how they're
doing.
I mean, their parents and howshe's trying to be like her mom,
different from her dad, butturns out she's more like her
mom, and she turns out she hatesher mom, but she's like her mom.
I'm writing a I'm creating aworld of people who are like me
and like you, and forgot throwenough out there in their drama

(56:19):
and in their bad jokes and intheir embarrassing situations
that you can relate to.

SPEAKER_00 (56:24):
Do you does your story I don't know the process,
but do you oftentimes feel kindof surprised by your own story?
You're writing the story, andthen it's like a character takes
a right turn and you're like,ooh, I didn't see that coming.

SPEAKER_03 (56:39):
You never see it coming.
Like Saga God ostensibly, it'sabout a guy who comes to
America, becomes a big star inBrazil, goes back to Haiti, gets
in trouble with the dictator.
That's the headline.
The reality is it's about a kidwho's a twin and who grew up
who's very competitive and whowas vain and he was very
talented.
It's about being a genius, beinggifted, and not knowing when to

(57:02):
say no.
Not knowing when, you know,enough's enough.
Maybe you don't sleep with yourbrother's girlfriend.
Maybe if you leave, maybe youcome back.
Maybe you don't stay away, youdon't stay out in the party over
and over again.
If you promise you the love ofyour life that you come back,
come back.
Um, what are the limits togenius?

(57:24):
If you're gifted, gifted peopleand writers for a lot and for
along those lines, and musiciansand artists for along those
lines, gifted people feelentitled to it.
Hey, my gift has to beexpressed.
And that's what I'm expressing.
You know, I kind of doing God'sbidding, I'm doing what God gave
me the ability to do, which isunique.

(57:46):
Fair, but where are the limits?

unknown (57:48):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (57:48):
Where the cap.
How do you do it and and keep afamily together?
How do you do it and keep yourspouse happy?
How do you do it and become partof a community and stay part of
a community, not bigger than thecommunity?
Those challenges, that's what myfirst that's what Devil the
Soccer Guide is about.
Yeah.
It's about um it's about agifted soccer player who has a

(58:10):
godlike ego and dies.

SPEAKER_00 (58:13):
Well, yeah, because that's I'm thinking like that's
the karma thing, right?
Is why he disappeared, which isa whole other topic that I think
is super interesting.
But yeah, so it's kind of uhthings will come back around to
put you in your place or yes.

SPEAKER_02 (58:31):
Karma comes back around, consciousness comes back
around, and love may come backaround.

SPEAKER_03 (58:36):
It's like, can you be so vain?
Anyway, the Ten Commandments,the number one is being too
vain.
And as an American, I clearlyidentify with that one because
we are too vain.
We think we live on an island.
We think we have 250 millionpeople who live on an island and
could do whatever we wantelsewhere, but here we're
untouchable.
And to whom much is given, muchis expected.

(58:58):
So instead of thinking likewe're in an island, we should be
more generous, more kind, moregiving.
And sometimes we have apresident who makes us more kind
and giving to the rest of theworld.
Sometimes we don't.
But this paradox of wealth, thehonor system that comes with
wealth and privilege, isfascinating to me.
And Devin Sacred is really aboutthat.
Wow.
The twists and turns that hetakes, like he goes to Brazil.

(59:21):
In theory, 22 football playersget to Brazil, but they're gonna
sleep with everybody in Brazil,or will some guys fall in love
and want to adopt a new family?
Will some guy go and have sexwith four women?
Will some guys just stay back inthe hotel stories of guys who
are out there doing stuff?
Right.

(59:42):
Those diverse personalities.
So when you're when you'rewriting a novel, you're not
alone, because you're puttingeverybody you know, and I even
name characters after my friendsjust as a shout out, because I'm
grateful for everybody gonnahave lunch with you when you're
a stay-at-home novelist.
Everybody could have lunch withyou and hang out with you once
in a while.
You're so grateful.
So they all end up in my booksomewhere.

(01:00:02):
Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:03):
I don't you know, one thing that popped into my
head as during thisconversation, and I'm not really
familiar with this.
I think they just call themrole-play games, and I'm not
trying to minimize or diminishor or I'm just curious though.
But yeah, I've I feel likepeople create these stories in

(01:00:24):
their head, and with theirfriends, they make characters,
and sometimes they do it as agroup, but I don't know if you
can do it by yourself, but itseems like maybe the same type
of person that enjoys that mightlater later on turn into a
writer.
What do you think?
I don't know.
I have no idea.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:40):
Shakespeare had money problems is all correct.
99% of writers have moneyproblems.
Or family problems.
And yet the greatest literatureand the greatest plays, the
greatest movies have been aboutkings and presidents.
No king has ever written a playor a novel.

(01:01:01):
But that's the quote, that's thequote for this conversation.
I love that.
Yes, okay.
There are great novels aboutkings.
There are great novels about thechiefs, about the prime
ministers.
They're not writing books.
Never written by a royal.
Hamlet was a prince of Denmark.

(01:01:22):
Written a novel, a play writtenby a broke writer in the deep
backwards of England.
Um there's something about theimagination.
If the writer does a good job,and if you make it convincing or
charming enough, the readerbelieves it.
But my first novel is about apresident of Haiti, a

(01:01:43):
60-year-old president of Haiti.
I was 40.
When people get me all the timelike, wait, you know, adultery,
and I'm like, wait, I'm not a22-year-old woman, which is the
hero of the book.
I'm not a 60-year-old man, I'mnot president of Haiti.
So there's nothing about my lifein here.
Except I know that people can bestrong, people can be weak, and

(01:02:05):
when they're strong, whenthey're weak, is kind of
unpredictable.
And how people try to bringeverything full circle is kind
of funny.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:14):
I'm strong, I'm weak, but I'm not that weak.
I'm still kind of strong.
I mean, we have that push-pullof our kids all the time.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:21):
I have that push pull.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:22):
I'm a good dad, right?

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:23):
Well, sometimes that I have that push-pull
constantly, every day in mylife, you know, going back and
forth, and people are people,whether they're kings or
20-some-year-old women, right?
We all have, yeah.
Yeah.
So yes.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:41):
Uh, every king wants to be a good man, every emperor
wants to be seen as a good man.
Everybody wants virtue.
Can you be good, but can you begood in a sustained way?
That's the challenge.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:51):
It's gotta be a tremendous amount of pressure
for any any, you know.
I mean, you mentioned it, everyking wants to be s a good man or
wants to be seen as a good man,and what a tremendous amount of
pressure.
Because with all the eyeslooking at you, and yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:08):
You know, I mean, and the same thing with all of
us.
Like, I do this by myself, but Iwanna, I have a family, I want
them to be proud.
Yeah, I have a community, I havefriends, I have um a girlfriend,
and I want everybody to feelpart of it.
Even though it's just me bymyself making shit up.

(01:03:28):
Um, it's not about them, but Iwant you to feel part of my
life.
I want you to show up for me, Ishow up for you, but I have more
free time for than you, so Ishow up a lot.
But what I'm doing is importantand it still counts, but it's a
balancing act.
Yeah, you can't pleaseeverybody.
So you have to find some middleline of like I'm creating these
things, but I'm also part of thecommunity.

(01:03:50):
And walking that tightrope, I'misolated.
Um the bylines are just me.
But I'm part of a community.
I show up for everyone I can,and I hope we get paid for it.
I hope people show up at thebook events.
Uh-huh.
When somebody says you did likethe book, you're like, Shaq, you
actually read it?
Um, you're always gonna beshocked.

(01:04:10):
And I've talked to the mostfamous guys, and they're like,
Yeah, every reader is like amiracle.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:16):
It's I get that on a smaller donor.
It just anytime, you know, anyanytime I talk to somebody about
the podcast and they're like,and they mention they've heard
it, or they said, Oh, I listenedto episode so-and-so with
so-and-so, and I don't know whyI'm always like I mean, I'll be
vulnerable right now.
I always feel excited andsurprised, even though I know I

(01:04:37):
mean I can look at the back end,I can see people are listening,
you know.
I but that's just a a chart or agraph or whatever.
And what and when someone says,Oh, I really enjoyed this
episode, I really love the wayyou got this out of that person,
and I'm like, Oh, you werelistening?
Oh, like it feels like, oh mygod.
There's um that uh I can'tremember his uh guy that does a

(01:04:59):
very large podcast and he umtalks about something like,
Well, I I I hope nobody'slistening or whatever, but if
you are, I don't Stephen,something I don't I don't even
go off on a tangent, but um it'sto me too, fascinating
conversation.
I feel like we could come backand discuss so many things.

(01:05:19):
I I haven't had a lot of authorson the show.
Um the the ones that I have hadhave been um what you're doing
is obviously veryinternationally relevant and be
super these are you knowinteresting stories for I think
my typical listener.
But where I want to go with thisis I really love your ability to
communicate.

(01:05:40):
It's just such a funconversation to have with you,
and you're you're verythoughtful and your responses
are clear and it's uh you'veleft me with so many fascinating
little thoughts and and newmessages that I hadn't heard
before.
So thank you so much for doingthat.
And I'm curious, before we wrapup though, I told you early on
I'd say we'd have a chance.
I want to make sure we didn'tleave anything on the table.

(01:06:00):
So I wanted to ask, what did Iforget to ask you?
What do you wish that I'd askedyou, or what else do you want to
make sure our listeners knowbefore we wrap up?

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:09):
Well, one thing we um I want to add as one thing
that we talked about in our prepre-recording um conversation,
which is that there's apotential here for there's it's
an opportunity for all the tourorganizers, other travel agents,
other people who are yourtypical audience, typical
listeners, or typicalinterviewers, and the people

(01:06:31):
running business, people of thetravel industry.
Books and movies about thecountries, about their
countries, about the countrythey're traveling in, to do
philanthropy and to just visitare very, very important.
And that should be part of theiroffering as travel agents.
There isn't a country thatdoesn't have you know the famous

(01:06:51):
great American novel?
Um, every country has a greatdot dot novel.
More countries more countriesread novels more than they watch
TV.
Electricity being what it is.
And so forth.
So that that every country hasthat.
And I think the tour operatorsand the hotels should make these

(01:07:13):
works available to theircustomers and their clients and
to their partners.
Because these things are whatthe tangible assets.
One thing about digital assets.
Digital assets are amazing.
Digital media is great.
But there is something aboutlife offline.
So every country has museums.
Every city has a museum ofnatural history, of modern art.

(01:07:37):
Those things should be part ofthe people's itineraries when
they're going to any country.
And particularly the literature.
You could read that after orbefore you go on a trip.

(01:07:57):
And that's part of that countrythat's with you forever.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:01):
I love that.
And yeah, I remember discussingthat.
I'm so happy you brought thatback up because that was that
was something I really wanted toget into, and I kind of glossed
over and forgot.
So thanks for bringing that upagain.
Because I know for me, in myexperiences, if I'm going
someplace new and I'm excitedabout it, but I'm not there yet.
But I'm uh kind of emotionally,I want to be there.

(01:08:23):
I want to get there.
And there's so for example, ifyou're going to Kenya or
whatever, and you might andyou're so excited to go to
Kenya, you might want to get outof Africa and read it.
Or something like that, right?

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:34):
Nigeria.
You read Chimamanda AdichiNingose's novel called
Americana.
So she's Nigerian who studied atPrinceton, but writes out of
Nigeria, but wrote a great novelcalled Americana about being an
African woman, trying to find ahairdresser and trying to get a
footing in America.
And she goes into all theminutiae about adapting to

(01:08:56):
America that is so familiar butseen from a new end lens
special.
Like in the world.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:07):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:08):
So it's called Americana, but it's written by
Nigeria.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:11):
Yeah, it's it's it's very cool.
It's and it's just a way to kindof because I like to think that
any travelers that are listeningto this program are really want
to create a connection.
It's not they're not just peopleseeking Instagram opportunities
or they want to there's so manyways to connect with a culture,
so I don't want to say anythingthat does connect with culture.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:32):
There's a lot of ways.
But my music, films, yeah, yeah,museums.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:37):
But books offer a cheap way and uh internally
rewarding way of connecting witha culture you're visiting.
Did you say it's or you mightvisit?
Did you say the word cheap way?

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:48):
Yeah, because the books cost 20 bucks.
Okay, so there's there's thecheap way, but there's also it's
kind of a cheat.
I because I heard the wordcheat.
A cheat way is like to startthat process with of connecting
before you get there.
Because some people will watchYouTube videos and they'll
watch, you know, street foodvideos in Vietnam, you know.

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:06):
So they and But if you read Taylor, if you read the
Taylor of Panama before going toPanama, you get to read about
sex and politics in Panama.
Yeah.
So and you can you can't getthat in a YouTube video about
Panama City.
No, you can get it in the Taleof Panama the novel.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:21):
Because the YouTube video about Panama City, most
likely, and I'm not knocking anyof my other content creator
friends out there, but manytimes I've watched these videos,
uh, for example, Medellin,Colombia, and I will see top ten
things to do or top threemistakes to avoid, or da da da,
and then the person can't evenpronounce the name of the city

(01:10:43):
right.
You know, and you're like, andif I didn't know, I wouldn't
know, but I know, you know, andit's like, oh, okay, yeah, this
is you know, they threw ittogether in the course of three
days as opposed to locked in anAirbnb somewhere in Martinique.
Yes.
Banging it out and creatingcurrent.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:03):
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah, we want to find abookstore in that city.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:06):
Yep, yep.
Find bookstores air.
There are some.
I don't, yeah, I don't know ifpeople are aware of this.
You are, obviously.
Um, I'm at least aware of thefact there are some bookstores
are really cool when you're outabout traveling.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:20):
Yeah, the best photo app.
There's a bookstore in Porto,Portugal that's so beautiful,
you have to pay 10 euros to getin.
And there's a line outside.
And they probably only startedto do that to try some.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:37):
Yeah.
You know, so and it's like whenInstagram exploded, people
discovered this book thisbookstore that's been around for
a hundred years.
There's a line outside.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:46):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:47):
And people paid money to go inside a bookstore.

unknown (01:11:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:50):
That's like unheard of, but that exists.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:52):
And many countries around the world have gorgeous
bookstores.
Yeah.
And they're not all Barnes andNoble.
And I'm not knocking Barnes andNoble.
The important player.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:00):
But they're modern pop bookstores that happen to
have funky architecture.
And you walk in there, you smellhundreds of you should be read a
history of a country.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:09):
Funky architecture, funky just cultural stuff, just
the way people work in spaces.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:16):
And you ask them about you asked the bookkeeper
about the most popular booksfrom that city, from that
country.
Well, this author is from here.
He he wrote this novel about umabout a king and his um and his
gay lover, and he became abusedbestseller in in 1845.
And people suspect that he wasgay, but he was in the closet.

(01:12:40):
So he wrote a novel about a gayuh closet cake.
And that's the lore.
So whenever you see a novel,that's the popular novel of a
local community, there'll be abackstory to it.
Yeah.
And the bookseller can tell youthat, and suddenly you know
something about that communitythat you won't find on YouTube.

unknown (01:12:57):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:58):
Then you go back to your friend and be like, hey,
man, if you go to Kuana and Pur,there's a bookstore there.
Boy, they got stories.

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:05):
Yeah, yeah, that's very cool.
I remember walking, I didn'tactually intend to walk into the
bookstore.
I was, it was actually in a mallright after I got to Colombia
several years ago, my firstvisit there, and just walking
through the mall, and there wasa line outside this bookstore.
And I was, and the woman I waswith, my friend, she she was
very excited.
She's like, Oh my gosh, that'sDulio.

(01:13:26):
That's Dulio.
He's a he's a cook, so it's acookbook that he had had
written.
But he was in there doing a booksigning, and it was so exciting.
And I was like, I had no ideawho he was, so I had to go buy
one of his cookbooks because Ilike to cook.
Yeah.
And there was it wasn't just acookbook, he he wrote stories
about these different things andwhy these things are important
in the culture, and uh da da dada.

(01:13:46):
And it was just it was just acool experience for me to to
have that and a memory.
So yeah, bookstores are a reallygood choice.

SPEAKER_03 (01:13:54):
They're really good choice.
So that should be on any travelitinerary.
Basically, a lot of stuff that'snot on YouTube should be people
should have almost an offlineversion of the tour in their
offering for clients.
You've seen the online stuff,but my agency offers you the
offline stuff.
Well, I'm gonna be museums,which will be bookstores, which
particularly for high-endclientele.

(01:14:15):
Because people actually read.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:16):
Well, those are the destinations, but I think also
something where I believe thatmaybe some tour operators missed
the boat is in the pre-planning,you know, in the pre-trip stuff,
is why not have a link in thereto a few books?
Why not have recommendedreadings?
Yep.
And not just recommended, butjust like here's a link to where
you can buy it from whicheverbookseller you feel most aligned

(01:14:39):
with.
But here's the book werecommend.
You know, if you like to prepareand read about and understand
the culture before you getthere, this would be a great
choice and make it easy for themto go get it.
Yeah, that's yeah, I because Ido that.
I mean, I do that myself quiteoften before I go someplace.
I'll go find what it what is thebook that I need, you know, like
you said, the great Americannovel, the great Kenyan novel,
the great Vietnamese novel, thattype of thing.

SPEAKER_03 (01:15:01):
Zimbabwean novel, the great Portuguese novel, the
great Norwegian.
Like there's a lot, and peoplehave, and even countries that
you don't associate withliterature will have literature.

SPEAKER_00 (01:15:10):
Yep.
I like I just recently read TheAlchemist in Spanish.
I read it, I'd read it inEnglish quite a few times.
I I really connect to that book,and it's a pretty quick read in
English, it's a little slower,slower in Spanish, and we were
touching earlier on thetranslation thing, and I was
like, I recognize that I'd readit quite a few times in English,

(01:15:30):
and when I read it in Spanish,it was a different story.
Go figure way different story,way different story.
You know, that could be thetranslator's version or just my
interpretation of the Spanishversion.
But the re the reason I bringthat up is you know, I've been
wanting to go to Morocco for awhile and and Spain.
I haven't really been to thatthat you know, Northern Africa,

(01:15:51):
the the part of Spain, you know,the southern Spain influenced
with a lot of North Africanstuff.
Yeah, yeah, it's a differentworld.
And that book's not necessarilyall, it's not a travel guide.
It's not gonna help you preparefor your trip, but it's just
maybe a good, quick, easy readexample of something you've got.
I got a recommendation for you.
Yeah, please do.

(01:16:11):
The Moors Lament.
The Moors Lament?

SPEAKER_03 (01:16:15):
Yes, that's a novel about um Spain and the Moors,
uh, which are the people fromMorocco and Algeria who ran
Spain for 600 years.

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:26):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:16:27):
Um, it's a great window into that work.

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:30):
Yeah, very, very cool.

SPEAKER_03 (01:16:31):
To the history of that world and high and and the
beauty about that history is isvery present when you go to that
world.

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:37):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:16:38):
You know, when you when you go to that world, it's
still present, like wow, okay.

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:41):
Architecture and all that.
There's so many cool places.
Here's the thing there's toomany cool places to go see and
to fully absorb and connectwith, but we can we can take a
shot at connecting with a lotmore of them by reading.
I will say that.
Yes, right?

SPEAKER_03 (01:17:00):
There are many ways to connect to society.
You know, you date locally, youyou you cook and you shop
locally, but you read, you getto the soul of a country.

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:09):
Well, I'm and I'm saying, I'm saying not everybody
has the ability, uh, physical,financial, whatever, ability to
go hang out in Morocco, to go tothe markets and try the spices
and do all this stuff.
But most people have the abilityto either pick up a book and

(01:17:30):
read or listen to it if theycan't read, they can't see it,
they can listen to it.
And you could you could sit inyour apartment in Brooklyn and
or wherever in the world andreally learn a lot about culture
and f and and differentsocieties and without ever
leaving.

SPEAKER_03 (01:17:46):
Just the humor, there and also it cuts across
literature, cuts acrossgenerations.
You know, those five people, youknow, in the class of 30, in
most families, it's like fivepeople.
There's like a grandmother whoread obsessively.
Yeah.
So when you when you read, whenyou like my dad read
obsessively.
So I read obsessively.

(01:18:06):
So when I'm talking to mycousins and and relatives, like,
oh yeah, your dad, man, he's hereps so much.
And then and I got stories aboutthe family, because my dad knew
the stories, told me thestories, and I got stories about
our family.
My family's like, damn, wedidn't know that.

unknown (01:18:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:18:21):
That's why you have that's why you have writers in
the family.
That's why you have readers inthe family that actually read
and remember stuff.
Which leads me to one thing,Jay.
Yeah.
Before we go, um sounds to melike you got a book to write.

SPEAKER_00 (01:18:34):
I I'm thinking the same thing.
I'm actually this conversationhas been really, really
interesting.
And I have found myself over thelast few years spending so much
time, you know, analyzing likewhy have I made the choices I've
made and what is my purpose andand um what was behind this and
behind that.
And frankly, a lot of it'sbecause I've been, I'm gonna say

(01:18:54):
I've been locked in an Airbnbfor four and a half years.
Not always by myself.
I want to put that out there.

SPEAKER_03 (01:19:00):
But it's um, but yeah, yeah, it's that's one
reason I'm happy being back inmy hometown is I left probably I
met my wife in prison.
So basically for 25 years, I'vebeen I was married to a
European, so for 25 years I'velived outside of the US.
Yeah.
Because even even when you wewere in the US, we have a house
that's like half Haitian, halfand so we always had like we

(01:19:23):
were always traveling, I wasalways on the run.
So when I came back here inSeptember, I was like, oh, I'm
I'm not on the run anymore.
I'm here.
So when I want dating, it's likeno, no, I'm here.
I'm not passing through.
And suddenly I'm like, oh mygod, I was so unreliable before
because I was so passingthrough.
I could talk all the talk, but Iwas just passing through.
I'm in an Airbnb, I'm not gonnabe in your country that long.

(01:19:45):
Yeah.
But you're amazing.
Let's hang out, but I'm notgonna be here that long.
But now I'm gonna be here.
So now I'm like truer and moresincere and more myself because
of that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:19:57):
Here's I don't know if this resonates with you, but
my process was when I decided,okay, I'm gonna go travel, I got
rid of everything.
I went the minimalist thing,everything I own is in one
suitcase, and then I've got alittle backpack I carry my
computer around in.
I'm there.
And so it's like, okay, so I gotrid of all this stuff, and you
were talking earlier about thethings you leave behind, the

(01:20:18):
things you let go of.
And so it both it's literally,metaphorically, physically,
whatever, I left a lot of stuffbehind.
I didn't leave my family behindin the sense my relationship
with my son's amazing.
I do, I talk to him about everyday on a video call.
I talk to my mom once a week ona video call.
So I didn't leave therelationships behind, but I left

(01:20:39):
a lot of stuff behind.
So then you go travel for awhile and you figure out, okay,
what's important?
Like when I don't buy anything,and this is not about spending
money.
This is I don't buy anythingunless I value it enough to
carry it.
Yes.
You know, and so there's that'sthe literal thing.
If it fits in my suitcase, Imaybe I have to get rid of

(01:21:00):
something else to make it fit.
But the same thing happens withrelationships, habits, thought
processes.
It's constant evaluation.
Okay, what can I, what should Icontinue to carry with me or
what should I let go?
And then someday when I end upback in the States or I end up
staying somewhere, then I canrealize, okay, now I kind of
know what's important, what Ireally need, what I, you know,

(01:21:22):
what I want to have in my life,and and then add and maybe add
some things back in because Idon't have to physically carry
them anymore.
But just with a differentperspective on kind of what's
important.
Did you is that does thatresonate?

SPEAKER_03 (01:21:36):
It may totally make sense.
It totally makes sense.
I've lived out of backpack quitea bit, um, but it's the last six
years.
My kids got old enough.
I'm like, okay, bet, you know,and me and my ex-wife were very
cool.
She's she's a she's a greatwoman.
Um I'm happy being in mycontinent, and I'm happy being
able to, but I'm happy alsobecause half my life is my kids.

(01:21:57):
Yeah.
So half my life is in Europe.
So I'm here, but another half ofme is in Europe.
Uh my daughter has a jobinterview tomorrow morning.
I'm waking up at 3 in themorning to wake her up.
It just means at 4 in themorning, which is 10 o'clock
Paris time.
But I'm waiting I just to besafe, I'm like, hey, you're
awake.
We're always parents.
We're always parents, aren't we?

(01:22:17):
We're always parents, and thatkeeps me grounded, and that
keeps me connected wherever Iam.
But living out of a backpack,I've done that for a long time,
and I'm growing into settingdown, growing into my roots now,
and now I'm discovering this iswho I've become.
I think your travels, becauseyou carried around the same

(01:22:39):
backpack, the same suitcase, thesame X amount of things, and the
same hobbies to make yourselffeel at home in a foreign place,
those hobbies become you.
So my routines in foreigncountries was the Catholic
Church on Sundays, bookstores,museums.
You know what?

(01:22:59):
My routines, wherever I am now,there's a Calgary Church naming,
there's a bookstore I pop in,just to pop in, this is for the
air, and this is New York City,there's one every five two
blocks.
Um and then the body of water Ilike to go walk by.
You know, I mean, usually it'son the Wall Street, like a
seaport.
I just want to say seaport.
Those routines happen everywhereyou go, but they have been

(01:23:23):
hardened and become part of myDNA over the course of me using
them in my travels to give me asense of Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:23:32):
Yeah.
And it's it's fascinating.
I suspect that what if I get it,I say when I get to the point of
not traveling and living out ofa backpack.
I suspect that my life beforetraveling, I had traveled quite
a bit, but for work trips andstuff.
But I had an apartment back inPhoenix, and I can picture
exactly what it was like, and Isuspect that when I sign a lease

(01:23:53):
on someplace or buy a place atsome point in the future, it's
gonna look very different.
Just my life is to be verydifferent.
So, like for example, I neverused to go eat a croissant and
drink a coffee in the morningwhen I lived in Phoenix.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I've done it an awful lot inthe last several years, and
wherever I live, there's gonnahave to be a little panaderia or

(01:24:14):
a pastry shop or batisserie orwhatever, where I can go sit
down with a coffee and eat a hamand cheese croissant in the
morning.
Like it's just gonna be part ofmy life forever now.
And that was not.

SPEAKER_03 (01:24:25):
And you would never be as materialistic as you were
before you started traveling.

SPEAKER_00 (01:24:28):
Oh, yeah, because it's it's gonna turn objects are
just objects.
Yeah, and stuff doesn't meananything, really.
I mean, it has to bring me atremendous amount of joy for me
to carry around.
And very few physical thingsgive me that much joy.
Like, I would yeah, I would justmuch rather cars, furniture.
No, but like you mentioned, youknow, passing through and and

(01:24:51):
being, you know, relationssometimes you you meet people
and you know, like I'm a singleguy and I meet women, and like
where do you live?
Well, that's really complicated.
How long will you be here?
How long will you, you know, doyou have a car?
Do you uh do you have familyhere with you?
Why are you here by yourself?
There's those questions can bekind of those those those
questions become recurring, andyou're like, Well they think

(01:25:12):
you're great.

SPEAKER_03 (01:25:13):
I stand for these things.
I have these hobbies, I havethese passions.
Do you share them?
Let's enjoy that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:25:19):
Yeah, I I asked someone recently uh I'm just
gonna say online, virtually, Iasked this person a question,
and I said, if you could goanywhere in the world, if you
could go anywhere in the worldfor one month, where would you
go?
And you know her response, and Irespect her response.
Her response was it'simpossible.
I have to work.
And I'm like, okay, I like I getthe response in a sense, but I

(01:25:43):
said, if you could go anywhere,I wasn't inviting her.
I wasn't, I didn't, I had no,like I had this was like our
very first like back and forth,but it was if you could go
anywhere, and she wasn't evencreative enough to say, if I
could go anywhere, it would beSwitzerland, or if I could go
anywhere, it would be Nigeria.
You don't have those things incommon, it's tough.
Yeah, and like like if she hadsaid, I would love to go to

(01:26:04):
wherever, unfortunately, rightnow I've got to figure out
something with my works, mysituation, because I don't have
a lot of time off.
But if I could go, I would go.
Then I'd be like, okay, well,maybe we could have a
conversation.
But if if your first responseis, yeah, that's impossible.
It's just like if anybody startsthe conversation with it's
impossible.
Yeah, I'm like not much room togrow from there.

(01:26:25):
You're probably gonna get reallyfrustrated with me.
Yes.
I get it, I get it the same way.

SPEAKER_03 (01:26:31):
I get the same way.
If you don't like books, youdon't like book events, what are
you doing with yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:26:35):
If if you ask what's your favorite book and you're
and they and she's like, Well,I'm too busy to read, I don't
really read, then yeah, okay.
Well, I'm gonna bore the shitout of you, and you're gonna
bore the shit out of me.
So let's uh let's save eachother some time and energy.

SPEAKER_03 (01:26:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So but that's but that's thething.
We just we define who we are themore we roll, and we have to be
true to those values.
Yeah, that's what I've learnedto do is to be sincere about
them.
Yeah, and it's hard because notto waste anybody's time.

SPEAKER_00 (01:27:02):
Yeah, it it that can be hard because sometimes you
question yourself.
If if 90% of the people Iinteract with, I tell them this
is this is my life, and and theyrespond with, Oh, it sounds like
you're homeless.
Are you homeless?
Like, well, I get that.
Then you have kind of.
Oh, I'll share this quick story,just real quick.
I was back visiting my son andmy mom in Arizona, and he was

(01:27:26):
probably I don't know, 16 orsomething like that.
And there was like aparent-teacher like visit like
before school, like orientationday, and they invite the kids to
come in with their families,meet the teachers.
And so I my myself and his mom,my ex-wife, um, accompanied him
to this school event, and one ofthe teachers um said, Oh, and

(01:27:50):
what you know, she knew we weredivorced, or that came up
somehow.
And then she looked at me andsays, Oh, so where do you live?
And I said, Oh, I'm homeless.
My poor son went into immediate.
He looked at me immediately,said, Dad, you have to explain,
explain it, explain.
Because that is funny.
And I'm like, Oh, I mean, I'm aI'm a digital nomad.
And and Jackson's like, Oh, dad,why did you tell her you're

(01:28:12):
homeless?
Oh my gosh, he was soembarrassed.
And not that it's a bad thingnecessarily, but anyway, I can
appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 (01:28:17):
This is funny because you're you're you're in
full nomad mode, and I'mreventing in being an American
living in America for the firsttime in 25 years, I'm like, oh,
this is nice.
Yeah, I I people ask me a wayfrom, I'm like, you know what?

SPEAKER_02 (01:28:30):
My high school's down the street.

SPEAKER_03 (01:28:32):
Yeah, isn't that that's and so I'm experiencing
the reverse of that, but Itotally get it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:28:37):
Well, right now, unfortunately, when I am back in
the States, if I run intosomebody interesting, or if
somebody says, Where do you liveor where are you from or
whatever, and it it kind ofcomes back around to, well, I'm
staying at my mom's house rightnow.
Which is probably worse thanbeing in Columbia and saying
you're a nomad and living in anAirbnb if you're in the States

(01:28:59):
and you say I'm a nomad stayingat my mom's house, they're like,
Yeah, you've got no points.
Nothing going for you when yousay that.
Dimitri, this has been funny.
This has been so much fun.
You better stay in touch, but Iactually, yeah, I think uh we're
doing New York City, let meknow.
Bagels.
Do you like bagels?
You gotta like bagels.
You're in New York.
I like bagels.
Yeah, yeah.
I love my girlfriend makesamazing bagels.

(01:29:20):
Okay, so I'm gonna come to NewYork.
We're gonna do bagels with uhlocks and all that good stuff
and a coffee.
So I look forward to it.
Yes, Dimitri, thank you so much.
I appreciate you.
This was a lot of fun.
Can't wait, can't wait to readyour book.
That's gonna be super that'sgonna be super cool.
I think she sent me a link, andum, I didn't want to kind of
ruin it by learning too muchabout you ahead of time because

(01:29:42):
if you can't tell, I'm kind of aspontaneous guy.
I like surprises.

SPEAKER_03 (01:29:46):
So but it's uh but now it's I think you like Soccer
God because it is about ummoving around the planet and uh
making new friends.

SPEAKER_00 (01:29:54):
You know, and that you called it disappeared by the
corrupt government.
Yeah, that's a big thing inLatin America that I don't know
if I mean probably not just inLatin America, but it's not
something really on our radio.

SPEAKER_03 (01:30:06):
Or ISIS disappearing people in America.

SPEAKER_00 (01:30:09):
Dictators do that.

SPEAKER_03 (01:30:10):
Yeah, they they do.

SPEAKER_00 (01:30:11):
Dictators disappear people.
Yeah, and it's something Ididn't think about a lot before
I really started traveling.
But you know, Mexico City, inanywhere in Mexico, Colombia,
most of these places I've been,see they there's a park I
remember in Buenos Aires backbefore I was traveling full
time.
I went there and they've got,you know, these these women that
hang out in the park and they'vegot pictures of their family

(01:30:32):
members that disappeared a longtime ago, some of them and some
of them more recently.
And it's a big thing.
And I bet there's a lot of storyopportunities there, which is
kind of what you've done withDeath of a Soccer God is you
know, yeah, what what happenedto these people and getting
voice to the voiceless, givingvoice to the uh disappeared.
I I I think it's uh pretty cool.
So all right.
I'll I'll let you get back towhat you're doing.

(01:30:54):
Dimitri, thank you so much.
Uh let's do it again real soon.
Same here.
All right, thanks.
Bye bye.

SPEAKER_03 (01:30:59):
Cheers.

SPEAKER_00 (01:31:00):
Bye bye.

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Adventure Travel with Dimitry Elias Léger - Author of Death of the Soccer God & God Loves Haiti

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Adventure Travel with Dimitry Elias Léger - Author of Death of the Soccer God & God Loves Haiti