Adventure Travel with Elinor Fish - Open Air Consulting - Adventure Travel Podcast - Big World Made Small

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (01:05):
Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of
the Big World Made Small podcastfor the Adventure Traveler.
Super excited to have each andevery one of you back today, and
I'm also very excited.
I've got a fascinating guestthat, in some ways, a lot of our
listeners are gonna be familiarwith what she's done, but she's
she's doing something a littledifferent that's very
interesting to, I think, a lotof people listening.
So without further ado, we'vegot Eleanor Fish here.

(01:28):
She is a business consultant inthe tourism, in the tourism
space, and she owns open airconsulting.
Eleanor, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 (01:36):
Thanks, Jason.
I'm excited to be here.

SPEAKER_00 (01:38):
It's gonna be a lot of fun.
We spoke actually, I guess itwas just a week ago, and I had
so many questions for you.
And I and I told you on thatcall, I said, don't I don't want
to ask you too many thingsbecause I've got all these
things in my head, and I want towait until we come back and
record because I like it to bespontaneous, and and I think I
think most of our listeners kindof figure that out already.
But Eleanor, so now I get to askall these questions.

(01:58):
We're gonna start with what theheck, not how you got there,
because we're gonna get into howyou got to the the point of
having open air consulting.
But just real quick, kind of the60, 90 second elevator pitch.
What is open air consulting?
What is who do you help and whatdo you do?

SPEAKER_01 (02:15):
Yeah, well, I work in the travel industry helping
travel industry business ownersunderstand the value of their
company in case maybe they wantto sell it someday, or they just
really want to, you know,increase the value of their
company, maybe because they wantto take an investment in the

(02:35):
future, or they're justwondering how do I scale up and
actually, you know, make mycompany bigger, more valuable,
and uh, you know, build a teamand you know, kind of just
evolve my business from where itis today.

SPEAKER_00 (02:49):
Very cool.
And I know there's companies outthere that you'd probably call
business brokers.
We've probably talked about thattype of thing, that maybe do a
pretty good job of coming in andhelping you figure out what it's
worth and figure out how to sellit.
But my interpretation of whatyou're doing, different even
than in that space, is reallyhelping people kind of plan for
succession plan.
It's not succession plan.

(03:09):
Well, maybe it is.
I don't know what it's called,but you're helping them actually
grow the business and get itready, even if it's even if they
don't want to do anything forthree to five years.
You can help them get readyinstead of just show up when
they say, Okay, I'm ready tosell.
What do I do?
Is that is that right?

SPEAKER_01 (03:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, business brokers youwant to engage with kind of in
that when you're getting closeto that time that you're ready
to sell, really, because they'regonna look at how to take the
business that you have currentlyin that moment and take it to
market.
And so they're gonna be lookingat what the business is worth
today and where the value is andand who the potential buyers

(03:45):
could be.
Whereas I like engaging withbusiness owners years before
they get to that point, becauseat this point, we have time to
not only understand what thebusiness could be worth today,
but how can we make it even morevaluable before long before you
go to put it up for sale?
Because a lot of times uhthere's work to be done there.
You know, for me, it was atwo-year process getting my

(04:08):
travel company ready to sellbefore I actually closed a deal.
And that was, you know, a prettyshort timeline in which to take
all the steps and really do thework that I needed to do to have
a company that that could besold, you know.
And I I that's why I like havingthese conversations as early as
possible with business owners,because sometimes it can be

(04:28):
really a tough place to be in ifyou are maybe in like a bit of
an urgent situation where you'relike, I need to sell my company
now.
But then you go and have thatmeeting with a business broker,
and maybe they say, Well, youknow, this business may not be
worth as much as you think itis, or it's not really ready to
sell, but then there's no timeto do anything about it.

(04:48):
So I really like having thoseconversations much earlier,
years before you think aboutselling your company.
Like, let's just understandwhat's working and what uh what
could work better to really makethe business more of an asset
rather than just a really bigjob that you've created for
yourself.

SPEAKER_00 (05:05):
Which a lot of people probably feel like
they've just created a big job.
And we're gonna get further intothat.
But for do I, you know, as I waslistening to you, I was kind of
coming up with the analogy oflike a house, because I worked
in real estate.
And yeah, is it better to have arealtor or somebody that's gonna
help you sell your house come inand look at it and maybe give
you some pointers on do this anddo that?

(05:26):
But that's all like justcosmetic stuff.
That's just like, you know,yeah, you should go ahead and
replace the countertops in thekitchen or whatever, or you
should throw some new paint onthe wall, or maybe you
shouldn't, I don't know.
But those are all things thatare just visual.
It's just like, how do we makeit look better?
But when we're talking aboutbusinesses, it's not the logo,
it's not necessarily theaesthetics of the website.

(05:48):
That might be part of it, butit's also the books.
You know, somebody that's comingin to buy a company is gonna
want to see the books and figureout, you know, did you keep
records?
Do you have a viable email listof past clients and contacts and
all this stuff that you probablyknow way more than I do about
it?
So it it seems like it is muchmore valuable to come in much,
much earlier.
And I'm sure you kind of givethem some ideas of what to do,

(06:10):
but are you able to kind of willyou work with them over the
course of a few years?
Is that the idea?
Or you just come in one-timedeal.
Here's here's some tweaks andthings you can do, and then let
me know when you're ready tosell it, or what does that look
like?

SPEAKER_01 (06:23):
Yeah, well, ideally there there's a kind of an
ongoing relationship that thatdevelops because what really
helps for a business owner tosee is start to look at the
business from the perspective ofthe way a buyer would
potentially see it.
And your your real estateanalysis is actually really
accurate because you know, whenyou're looking at buying a
house, you go and see theproperty, you visually inspect

(06:46):
the property.
And so you get a real good senseof what needs fixing in the
house and maybe you know whatlooks good, what is
superficially patched togetherand what is really solid
underneath underneath thesurface of things.
And so, you know, when you'reselling a business, there's this
whole process that buyers andsellers go through called due

(07:06):
diligence.
And honestly, like I've beenthrough it a couple of times
now.
It can be quite painful becausein a business, it the business
becomes so personal, you know,to the owner.
Like it's such a something thatyou created, it's your baby, you
know every little, you know,every little piece and part of
how that business works.
And then when you have someonecome in from the outside and

(07:28):
they start poking around andasking questions and wanting to
see all your stuff, and ifyou're not prepared to really
show them that, first of all, itfeels very invasive.

SPEAKER_02 (07:40):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (07:41):
You know, just because you've never had to
share that much of your businesswith someone before.
And sometimes the questionsthat, you know, buyers ask can
be very difficult if you're notquite ready to answer those
questions.
But the whole point of duediligence is because the buyer
wants to understand all thoselayers of the business.
Because unlike a real estatedeal, you can't visually see it.

(08:03):
You need to kind of go in andhave those conversations and be
shown all the supportingdocumentation of potentially
going back years.
And this is where a lot of thisis why a lot of deals don't
actually close, you know,because one, either buyers are
like, you know, I don't have thedata that you're asking me for.
So I can't, I can't support theasking price uh that I I'm

(08:27):
asking for this business, ormaybe they just don't feel
comfortable.
They don't feel ready to answersome of these tougher questions
about the decisions, thestrategic decisions that were
made in the business.
And so, you know, what I do as abusiness advisor is we really
have those tough conversationsbecause I come from the outside
and I look at it from thatbuyer's perspective, and I say,

(08:50):
well, here's the things that abuyer is going to want to know.
Like, why do the financials showthis, but you say that?
These things don't align.
So we need to have some answersfor that.
You know, and so that that'sdefinitely a big, a big part of
it.

SPEAKER_00 (09:04):
And I also suspect it's probably a little less
stressful to have someone likeyou come in and pardon me, go
through that with them asopposed to a buyer that has put
in some sort of offer that'scontingent on the due diligence
process.
There's a lot of pressure whenthose questions are being asked
then.
When it's someone like you thatthey've hired to come in and
help them, it's like practice,like if you're gonna go to

(09:27):
court, you gotta get on thestand.
It's like you want to practicewith somebody that is on your
side first before they justthrow you on the stand, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 (09:36):
Yeah, exactly.
Because I'm on, I'm on thebusiness owner's side.
I want them to get that bestpossible outcome.
And yeah, it takes preparationand planning to get there.
So so it can definitely makewhen you get to that point of
you when you do go to market andyou whether you work with a
broker or not, but you're readyto list the business, you know
it's coming, you've already gotyour documentation all in order,

(09:59):
you've already got yourfinancial story all prepared and
ready to go.
And you can go into thoseconversations feeling so
prepared because you know, withbusiness transactions, like
there's so many different waysto structure them.
There's so many different waysthe process can go.
And it just it's, I think itwould be really hard to do if
you went into it without kind ofhaving that prep work done and

(10:22):
just educate yourself about notonly how to close a business
deal, but to get really clear onlike what you as the seller
really want to get out of it.
You know, because one of thethings I'm so passionate about
is having conversations withbusiness owners about what their
goals are after selling, whatwhat do they want to get from

(10:42):
the this transaction?
Uh, because it should align withwhatever it is they want to do
after selling, whether it'sretiring, whether it's maybe
starting a new venture, maybeit's making some other kind of
investment, or there's someother thing.
But we might as well come upwith a plan that meets not just
the needs of your business, butyou know, your personal

(11:05):
financial needs as well.
Because you know, building abusiness takes a lot, a lot of
time and energy.
And there's usually a lot ofsacrifices that business owners
would make along the way.
And I just want them to makesure that they feel those
sacrifices made over the yearswas worth it and actually pays
off at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_00 (11:26):
Right.
Because I I'm imagining youmentioned the different way you
structure deals.
And if your plan is to go outand buy another business, but
then you structure a deal in away that the person's gonna be
making payments over the next 20years, you might not have the
cash to go buy the otherbusiness.
And then when you go to theother business and they say,
well, I'll pay you over, youknow, over the years because

(11:47):
I've got this other personpaying me over the years, that
put that makes it very risky forsome people.
So is that that's kind of whatyou're talking about when you're
talking about figuring out whatyou want to do.

unknown (11:57):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (11:57):
Yeah, that kind of a thing and and just the the
timing of it, you know, becauseif you if you if you're like,
well, I want to sell in maybethree years or maybe 10 years,
well, the outcome of those twoscenarios is completely
different.
You know, uh it'll have a verydifferent impact on your life.
And the value of the businesscould be drastically different

(12:19):
in those two scenarios.
So yeah, so it's it's worth kindof considering all of those
things because most of the timesbusiness owners don't really
know when they they want tosell, but they want to start
thinking about the options andknow that they have options.
And so the other thing I loveabout the work I do is it just
it gives business owners more ofthat freedom back, that freedom

(12:42):
to choose when to sell theirbusiness and and not being
forced into selling it out ofdesperation or urgency, because
you know, like life happens,right?
And and sometimes a lot of smallbusiness owners are kind of
forced into a situation wherethey have to think about selling
before they thought they would.

(13:03):
Like maybe there's, you know, anillness that they have to attend
to, or aging parents they needto take care of, or uh, you
know, kids that are uh gettingolder and about to leave home,
and they, you know, the ownerwants to have something have
more time for family, or justthere's a shift in priorities,
and that's totally normal,right?
Like we go through differentphases of life.

SPEAKER_00 (13:26):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (13:27):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (13:27):
And I suspect a lot of these scenarios, I mean,
these are mostly, I'm gonna say,small business entrepreneurs
working in the tourism space.
And I'm sure there's I I knowthere are scenarios where
somebody's like, oh yeah, my sonis he's really involved.
He wants to take over thebusiness, and and that's all
fine until boom, the son or thedaughter no longer wants to do
that, you know, and and they goa different direction.

(13:49):
And then mom and dad are like,what the heck?
We, you know, we were planningto to move to Tahiti or
something, and now we can'tbecause we're uh we're in this
tough spot because our kid's notgoing to take over the business.
I you I heard you say when theyget ready to sell, whether they
want to work with a broker ornot.
That's kind of what I heard.
So I'm curious, are you able toact as a broker or is that a

(14:13):
different role?
And do you facilitate that?
So, what is what does the wordbroker mean when you said that?

SPEAKER_01 (14:18):
Yeah, well, a business broker kind of
functions the way like a realestate broker might.
And actually, in the state ofColorado, you need to have a
real estate license to be abusiness broker.
And uh, I don't currently dothat role, but what I do is when
I'm working with clients, maybeover a long period of time,
we've been preparing thebusiness to sell, I can then

(14:39):
refer that client to a businessbroker who would actually work
on that final stage of actuallyputting together the marketing
package, hosting the businessfor sale in some marketplaces,
and then negotiating the termsof the transaction and
representing the seller in thattransaction.

(15:01):
So I don't do that work, but Ido collaborate and refer to
business brokers when a businessowner is ready to do that.
And that makes sense.
Yeah, exactly.
And you know, it it doesn't makesense for businesses of a
certain size for real microbusinesses.
You know, they may not want todo that, but they should have a

(15:22):
legal advisor absolutely lookover at least the terms of the
purchase agreement that that'sbeing presented to them at the
very least, if they don't workwith a broker.
But yeah, I mean, brokers docost money too.
They take a chunk of thetransaction and they they earn
it though.
So there's pros and cons tothat.
But that's another area in whichI uh just have those

(15:43):
conversations with my clients tohelp them decide what it could
look like, what their choicesare, and what's the best route
for them.

unknown (15:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (15:50):
And it makes makes total sense to me.
I'll use kind of the analogy ofof real estate homes and stuff,
is a real estate agent isworking on a commission.
The real estate agent doesn'treally want to talk to you in
depth for three years before youfinally decide to list it.
You're not gonna get much out ofthem.
They might be nice enough tocome over and and tell you,

(16:11):
okay, yeah, your carpet looksfine and you clean up your
backyard at some point in thenext few years, but they're not
gonna continuously walk throughall this stuff because you may
or may not ever sell.
So it wouldn't make sense.
So I assume the same thing witha business broker is a business
broker is probably, I don'tknow, unless he's able to really
he or she's really able to playthe really long game, is gonna

(16:32):
be able to sit down and and helpyou figure out how to grow your
business and and get it ready tosell in, you know, three, five,
ten years.
But you can do that, right?
So that's that that makes yeah,that's that's pretty cool.
Do you when it comes to thesale?
Because I understand you're notthe broker, you're not
necessarily handling thetransaction, but I'm just
curious if it's similar to withhomes.

(16:54):
Ideally, the buyer and theseller don't actually meet each
other because of emotionalstuff.
Because buyers and sellers havea tendency to piss each other
off, you know.
So the buyer comes in and says,I'm not gonna buy this this
paint in this one bedroom ishorrendous.
You guys need to change thatbefore I'll close the deal.
And the the seller is like, Mydaughter wanted that color.

(17:16):
That's her favorite color.
And well, screw you, if you ifyou don't like it, go find a
different house.
So where I'm going with allthat, because we started
earlier, you mentioned that whenwhen a buyer comes in and starts
questioning all these things, itcan feel very invasive.
So, does a good broker keep runinterference and stay in the
middle of that?
Do they let the buyers andsellers talk, or is it in

(17:38):
business is a little differentwhere they need to talk?

SPEAKER_01 (17:41):
They definitely have to sort of help manage that
interaction a little bit becauseyeah, it it when there's a lot
of money at stake on both sides,and both both sides are feeling
a certain amount of pressure andand they're managing their own
personal risk in thistransaction, it it does create
potentially a stressfulsituation.

(18:02):
But from my experience, there'sthere is definitely more
interaction directly between thebuyers and the sellers uh in
this industry.
And you know, that's one of thethings I love about the travel
industry is that it is, it'sit's it's experiential.
It's about relationships, it'sabout people.
So unlike a real estatetransaction where you're just

(18:22):
buying uh a physical thing, um,you know, when you're buying a
business, most often I think thebuyer is gonna want to actually
come on site.
Like maybe you're an outfitter,for example.
They're they're gonna want tocome and go on some of the the
activities and actually see howthe business operates, see it
from the customer's perspectivefor themselves.

(18:44):
So they'll they'll go on siteand they'll do the activities
and see how the team isoperating and that sort of
thing.
Or maybe they'll come to youroffices and and uh get a sense
of the atmosphere and the peopleand the, you know, how how the
place runs, that sort of thing.
Sometimes that's done in anincognito capacity where the

(19:05):
employees are not really let inon what's going on.
So that's pretty common whereonly the owner knows who this
person is, but they they try to,you know, the this person will
kind of come in in sort of anundercover capacity so as not to
let on that they're actuallylooking at buying the business,
but they are there to want totry to experience it.

(19:27):
And yeah, and that's why, likepreparing for the sale before
you get to that due diligencephase where it is a lot of
exchanging documents, that'swhere you know the business
broker will try to kind ofmanage things and they'll manage
the flow of documentation.
They'll set up what's commonlycalled like a data room where

(19:47):
you're uploading documents andthen the the buyer is going and
retrieving them to examine.
So there's not a lot of you knowemailing directly between the
buyer and and the the seller.
But also too, there's reallyimportant conversations that
need to take place.
And you know, the the thebuyer's gonna want to understand

(20:09):
why things were set up the waythey were to really understand
what is drive, what are thebiggest value drivers in this
business?
Why why is it set up the way itis?
Uh, how crucial is this, youknow, this system to creating
the economic output that thebusiness creates?
Because they're trying to gaugein their minds really, is this

(20:32):
business worth what the selleris asking me for?
And can I run this businesswithout them?
So they're trying to imagine howthe operation will work or won't
work if when the owner, theseller, is absent.

SPEAKER_00 (20:48):
Right.
And which is a little differentthan like with a house, because
you know what?
If if the seller forgot to tellme where the thermostat is,
we'll figure it out.
You know, like any anybody can,you know, you've got your
inspector comes through andchecks things out just to make
sure there's, you know,whatever.
But once the seller's gone,whatever comes up, but you can't
find the garage door opener, youcan hire somebody to come in and

(21:11):
get, you know, you can get agarage door opener.
Pretty much everything with ahouse, you can get somebody else
to step in and that knows whatthey're doing.
But yeah, in a small business,tour operation business, yeah,
it's like if you start thebusiness and all of a sudden
can't figure out how to get intothe database to get the client
files.

SPEAKER_01 (21:29):
Right.
Well, and this is where it getskind of interesting, especially
in a service-based business.
Like so for service-based inbusinesses that maybe don't have
a lot of physical assets, like atravel agency or a tour
operator, they're mostly theirbiggest value is in their IP, in
their their, they've got theircustomer base, they have their

(21:50):
their trips, and a lot offulfillment of those trips is
subcontracted to the suppliersin the country.
So if a tour operator is sellingtheir business, what are they
selling?
Well, they're selling theirintellectual property or their,
you know, their ways of doingthings.
And how you put value on thatcan be very subjective.
And so the owner might think,look, I've got a great operation

(22:14):
here.
It all lives in my head.
Only I don't know what oursecret sauce is.
Well, that is of zero value to abuyer.
Like it doesn't matter that yougenerate millions of dollars a
year if that IP only exists inyour mind, or you know, 80% of
it is in your mind, and um andyou need to tell everyone else

(22:35):
how to make it operate on theground, right?

SPEAKER_02 (22:38):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (22:38):
And so that's that's often where I think a lot of
business owners kind of come tothe realization like, oh my
gosh, if I really want to sellthis someday, it can't just live
in my head.
It can't depend on me tooperate.
And so once we start to reallylike uncover the layers of what
it is they have built out intheir business and what is

(23:00):
retained within them, then itreally starts to become clear
what the work will look like.
You know, and that's why I'm notworking with people over longer
periods of time because youcan't change this stuff
overnight.
But there is a pathway that wecan take to change that, you
know, that structure and make itsomething that someone else can

(23:21):
actually acquire and thenoperate.

SPEAKER_00 (23:24):
I'm sure and we're going to get into your
background and I know that youwere aware of this as well, but
working in the tourism space,probably a lot of industries,
but I've worked in the tourismspace most of my life.
And I've worked for people andI've worked in organizations
where it's like you have aquestion and answer to the
question is, oh, you got to askso and so and it's usually the

(23:44):
owner of the company.
And you like, so you go to theowner and say, hey, you know,
I'm trying to get in touch withthis operator in Colombia and
he's not getting back to me toconfirm this this transfer.
I'm just thinking of a scenario.
He's not getting back to me totransfer and the owner says oh
well yeah he responds best byWhatsApp.
So he's never gonna he's nevergonna respond by email so you

(24:05):
gotta you gotta reach out to himby WhatsApp.
And that's just an example ofthis, you know, I think you call
it IP intellectual property.
It's all in their head.
And if I if I were to come inand take over that business and
he were to disappear I'd besitting there waiting for emails
to come back from this driver inColombia that's never going to
respond by email.
It's just an example and I'msure anybody that's listening to
this that's ever worked in atour vision business knows that

(24:27):
there's a lot of oh go ask soand so but what happens if so
and so's not around.
Exactly exactly that's a that'sa tough deal.
It's it's very fascinating.
We're not gonna get too into theweeds about you know strategies
and and accounting and financeand all that stuff.
That's that's a greatconversation for you to have
with somebody after this showand they listen to this and they

(24:49):
click on the link if that's theconversation they want to have I
trust you'll have that withthem.
And yeah we're gonna now we'regonna dig back into the the past
figure out how you got fromwhere you were to where you are
I like to go pretty youngbecause I like to kind of hear
how people even get intotourism.
I don't know how how far backonce I asked somebody is like
how far back should we go?
And they said, well I was bornon December 16th you know in

(25:12):
such and such a place we don'tneed to go that far back but I'd
love to kind of hear about yourupbringing your childhood and
figure out what the connectionsare that led you here.
So how far back should we go?

SPEAKER_01 (25:23):
Yeah well I really think that my love for travel
was sparked when I was ateenager.
I was growing up in BritishColumbia and I had an
opportunity to do a studentexchange through the the Rotary
Club.

unknown (25:36):
Oh cool.

SPEAKER_01 (25:37):
And so at 17 I went off to France for a year and
lived in France and you knowlived with host families and got
to travel around and meet otherstudents and it like was a life
changing experience.
I absolutely loved it.
And so that's when I definitelydiscovered that you know this
whole idea of just traveling andliving in different countries is

(26:00):
definitely a part of my life.

SPEAKER_00 (26:02):
Do you remember do you remember the moment that you
I either found out that thisrotary program existed or that
you went through the process ofapplying for it or do you like
so what was going on maybe ayear or two before that?
Were you already thought youwanted to go somewhere or was
this rotary thing just kind ofaccidentally no idea.

SPEAKER_01 (26:20):
Yeah I I I hadn't really thought about it.
You know but I lived in a reallysmall town up in the mountains
of the Canadian Rockies and soyou know had you know pretty
small life but it was all good.
But my father was involved withthe Rotary club and so he knew
about the the student exchangeprogram and I didn't know
anything about it.

(26:41):
My parents really encouraged meto check it out.
And they said if you were toapply to do the student exchange
program in any of thesecountries that were listed which
one would you pick?
And something in me said Franceand sure enough like I just fell
in love with everything French.
I love the language the food theculture the history you know

(27:05):
when I lived there getting totravel around is visit like the
Loire Valley and the castles andjust see the history living in
the landscape.

SPEAKER_00 (27:14):
Yeah but what what but what was it but at the time
when you saw France on the listlike had you thought about
France before were you takingFrench classes?
Were you on your radar?

SPEAKER_01 (27:25):
Yeah as a Canadian I was learning French.
So I I felt like I had a basicunderstanding of French, you
know, because it's a mandatorypart of the Canadian school
curriculum.
But I wasn't exactlyconversational.
I wasn't immersed in the Frenchlanguage.
So to get to go to France andactually uh be immersed in

(27:46):
another language and start tobecome conversational that that
was just to me that was a reallycool process.
So it was awesome.

SPEAKER_00 (27:54):
So tell me about your parents because what I
heard you say was your dadbasically came home and said hey
there's this thing I'm justcurious if you were to pick if
you were to participate in thiswhere would you go?
And you said France and you saidthat they were very supportive
there are some parents in theworld that would never present
that to their teenage daughtereven if they knew about it and

(28:15):
even if they had the ability tomake it happen would just
conveniently not mention that.
There's others that are like ifyou don't shape up we're gonna
send you off to boarding schoolsomewhere they won't maybe they
want you to go somewhere.
I don't know.
But looking back were yourparents had they traveled before
was that something that wasimportant to them what tell me a
little bit about your parents soI can understand why they took

(28:38):
that route.

SPEAKER_01 (28:39):
Gosh yeah well my my parents grew up in like eastern
Canada and I'd say more my momis much more of a world traveler
you know she grew up kind of inthe the hippie 60s and you know
did like the backpacking aroundEurope thing.
And so she was really it was youknow easy for her um to see me

(29:02):
doing that too.
And so she was super supportiveand I think my dad was
comfortable with it because hewas already familiar with the
Rotary Club program and how itworked and also to like trusted
how the the host families arealso a part of the Rotary Club.
So it felt like a very safeoption for someone like me to to
go live in a foreign country.

(29:23):
It's not like it was just beingshipped off into the unknown.
So to me it felt like a very uha very safe container in which
to have those first experiencestraveling in a foreign country
without my parents and meetingnew people and being in a
foreign language.

SPEAKER_00 (29:41):
So had you traveled outside of British Columbia up
until that point?

SPEAKER_01 (29:45):
Not much, you know not a whole lot.
So yeah it was a big step.

SPEAKER_00 (29:49):
What what other kinds of things were you
interested?
Like if I'd if I had a timemachine and met you and you were
15 14 or 15 and I said Eleanorwhat do you want to do when you
grow up do you do you recallwhat you would have said no but
I probably would have said thatI wanted to work with horses
because that's popular.

SPEAKER_01 (30:09):
That's all I wanted to do I as a teenager I had had
a horse and I competed in ourlocal our local horse shows and
was just going around todifferent horse shows and doing
like show jumping and dressageand trail riding and stuff like
that.

SPEAKER_00 (30:25):
So that was kind of all I cared about I've there's a
a few teenage a few women thatwhen they were teenagers were
really into horses so I I getthat especially in kind of in
that part of the world I think Igrew up in the Rockies as well
and a little little south ofwhere you were but did from the
moment your dad first broughtthis up or your parents first

(30:45):
brought this up and said heythis there's this program here's
a list of countries and you'relike man France would be great.
So from that moment until youactually got on the plane to go,
how much time do you remember?
Was that a a short quick time ordid you have a year to plan or
what did what did that looklike?

SPEAKER_01 (31:00):
You know I haven't thought about this in a long
time.

SPEAKER_00 (31:02):
That's I sorry I I I tend to ask those kinds of
questions to people.
Test your memory.

SPEAKER_01 (31:08):
When I look back now it seemed like it was fairly
short period of time.
It was probably a few months youknow um so not a lot of
planning.
I I didn't know anything aboutthe family I was going to go
live with and I just thought youknow we'll just see what this is
all about.
You know it was it's really coolto think back now just how I
could just you know trust theprocess and just be like, you

(31:32):
know, I don't know anythingabout this, but I'm just going
to go with it and see whathappens.
You know, and now as a as anadult at this phase of life it's
like oh my gosh I would havedone so much like planning and
thinking ahead and wanting towork out all the potential
scenarios and make sure thatI've thought everything through
but you know that's the that'sthe luxury right of youth and

(31:54):
and that you you kind of justdon't worry about all the what
ifs sometimes and you just gofor it and just be like, well
hey let's go see how this isgoing to work out.

SPEAKER_00 (32:05):
You can you can see that kind of in just the way the
backpacker, the gap year, thething that's it's the the
teenager that before they go tocollege or on a summer be you
know summer break in school,they just like go do stuff,
right?
They just go do it.

SPEAKER_02 (32:19):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (32:20):
And when you when you're talking to maybe a
potential new client orsomething that's 50 and they
gotta know who's picking me upat the airport.
Yeah.
What's their license platenumber how am I going to
communicate with them?
Is is the room does the roomhave you know different types of
it's like we're just sodifferent.
Some of us I mean it I travelfull time I'm not like that but

(32:44):
but I get it.

SPEAKER_01 (32:45):
No but it's true.
Like when I you know I had a atravel company for 14 years and
yeah I mean I saw so much ofthat in in that I we specialize
in just women only group travel.
And yes so a lot of the womenthat came on our trips had not
traveled outside the countrybefore or hadn't traveled alone

(33:05):
before.
And yes that they they reallywanted that reassurance of
knowing every little detail ofhow it was all going to work.
And I I understand that need forsecurity especially in this
crazy world where we hear aboutall the you know potential
threats or dangers and and yesyou need to be smart and and
careful but the price we pay forthat too is just kind of this

(33:26):
loss of like spontaneity or likenot really knowing what we're
gonna do when we get to a place.
Like I remember right aftercollege I didn't know where I
was going to start my career.
So I like booked a trip to Maui.
I just thought I don't know whatI'm gonna do in Maui but just I
think I need to go there.
And so I just like booked aflight and like stayed in

(33:47):
hostels on Maui for a few weeksjust to kind of like figure out
what I was going to do next.
And I had like no plan.
I knew nothing about what I wasgoing to do.
It just sounded great.
So that's what I did.

SPEAKER_00 (33:59):
One thing I've noticed having these
conversations we've got almost aI've had a couple hundred
conversations now just as partof this this you know platform
the the podcast but if you askpeople that travel that have a
handful of experiences whattheir most memorable moments
are, they're almost always theones that weren't planned which
is kind of ironic consideringconsidering almost every time

(34:21):
I'm having a conversation withsomebody that worked in the
industry and and made a livinghelping people make plans.
But if you ask about theirpersonal experiences, it's that
you know I'm going to France I Iknow there's a Rotary family
there, but I don't really knowmuch about them or I think I'll
go to Maui.
I don't know why, but I thinkI'll go.
I still do that.
I've got a little bit of ADHD soI I have no problem moving

(34:43):
forward without plans.
But it's but the mostinteresting experiences I've had
are the ones that just reallyfor example just like I'm
walking from my Airbnb to thegrocery store so that's my plan
but then I see something or hearsomething down a street that I
don't know I've never been down.
I'm like, oh it looks likesomething interesting is down
there.
So I divert from my plan andwalk down the street and that's

(35:06):
where I see the cool stuff.
You know it's almost never thegrocery store that's
interesting.
It's the stuff that wasn't onthe agenda.
And it it sounds like you've hadsome of that experience just as
well.
Hunter I do want to ask you doyou remember the moment whether
because when I asked you abouttravel getting inspired or you
brought up that it was this tripto France that really got you
going and hooked on it.

(35:26):
But do you remember a momenteither on that trip or after
when you're like yeah tourismI'm gonna work in the tourism
business.
I'm I want to do this for aliving do you remember that
moment?

SPEAKER_01 (35:36):
Yeah yeah I think so because um you know after
college like I said I wasn'tsure what I wanted to do though
I got a degree in geography so Ithink that was kind of a signal
but I still I'm like what do youdo with a geography degree?

SPEAKER_00 (35:50):
I didn't really have a plan for that what let's pause
here for a second.

SPEAKER_01 (35:55):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (35:55):
What does what do people do?
I've had a few guests that havementioned geography what do you
do with a geography degree?
What's the traditional typicalpath with a geography degree?
Did you ever figure that out?
I mean because I'm thinkingmaybe that's a start to go in to
get a master's in politicalscience or something.

SPEAKER_01 (36:15):
Yes yeah and I was interested in political science
and um so there's a lot of likeglobal economics involved and
sociology.
So those were kind ofinteresting aspects of it.
So it was about people andplaces and economies.
So I found all those things veryinteresting but still did not
know what I was going to do.
So the next thing after that isI find myself living in in the

(36:38):
Canadian Rockies on the Albertaside of the border.
So that's where like BanffNational Park is and I got my
first real career job aftercollege was working for the
Banfflick Louise Tourism Bureau.
And that's what like totally gotme 100% hooked on working in
tourism as an industry.
I just absolutely fell in lovewith it because I had I kind of

(37:01):
landed like the coolestentry-level job I think you
could possibly get at the time,which was working for the
Bamflick Louise Tourism Bureauin the PR and media department
and it was my job to organizefam trips and press trips and
yeah for like film crewstelevision crews and print journ

(37:22):
journalists and photographersand put together their
itineraries to have them comeand experience FAMF and like
Louise and I got to spend tonsof time with these folks and
show them around and host themin dinners and I mean it was
awesome.

SPEAKER_00 (37:36):
It was so much fun that is yeah because your your
job is to find the fun stuff forfor them to to go experience.

SPEAKER_01 (37:45):
Yeah yeah yeah that's perfect absolutely how
long did you do that job I didthat for about three or four
years and uh and then I went uhto Australia for a year and
worked still worked in media butI was actually working for a
cruise magazine because you knowthe cruise industry is huge in
Australia and I was living inSydney and so I did that for a

(38:09):
year and then I came back to theCanadian Rockies and that's kind
of when I I kind of started theconsulting side of things where
I was just doing freelancemarketing for the province of
Alberta as well as for bankslike Louise Tourism and some
other local organizations doingkind of PR and media related
stuff.
Still very much in the tourismindustry.

SPEAKER_00 (38:30):
I don't want to skip anything big but I'm curious how
you took the leap from that intostarting your own tourism
business, not the consulting themarketing stuff, but I mean you
had a to a tour operationbusiness.
So what happened that kind ofgot you from doing the
consulting the stuff for Banfflike Louise and all that to the
point where you actuallylaunched your own business?

SPEAKER_01 (38:52):
Yeah well I'll tell you I never would have predicted
a path like this but the way itworked out was um from living in
the Canadian Rockies I got anoffer to actually work for a
running magazine because I'malso really big ultra marathon
runner or was for a period oftime.
And I was freelance writingwriting articles for this

(39:14):
running magazine and then theyoffered me a position on staff
but that meant moving toColorado so I was looking for a
life change anyway.
So I moved to Colorado where Istill am today living in the
Canadian Rockies and was workingfor the running magazine and one
of the assignments that I wasgiven this was in 2007 I was

(39:37):
given the assignment to go on arunning tour with a running
company in Torres del PineNational Park in in Chile and I
got to okay yeah I'll go I cando that.
Okay I'll take that assignment Imean this was like the golden
age of you know print media andtravel media where journalists

(40:00):
were paid to go on these kindsof trips which I think it's less
common these days but I wasteamed up with some of the
world's best outdoor uh you knowactive travel photographer Dan
and Chanin Patatucci and youknow they've they shoot a ton of
like running climbing all kindsof like uh outdoor sports

(40:21):
photography for catalogs andmagazines for decades.
So I teamed up with them and wespent this like two weeks in
Patagonia running around Torresdel Pine and and I wrote this
big article about the trip forthe magazine.
But it was on that trip andhaving deep conversations with
the other people that were inour group which was you know

(40:43):
people from all over the world.
We were all traveling togetherand staying in these refugios as
we ran day by day around Torresdel Pine and then shooting these
photos and having deepconversations with Dan and
Chanel Patatucci who had justcreated this incredible life
where they traveled the worldand did their photography.

(41:04):
And to me that was just mindblowing.
I'm like I can't believe thatthis is your job like you are
out here doing all thisincredible work.
And I just realized how much Ilove this notion of combining
running which was my passion andtravel which was my other
passion.
And so it planted the seed likeI could create a running travel

(41:28):
company too.
And of course you know DanPatatucci he's the kind of guy
who's just like you've got tofollow your dreams.
If that's what you want to doyou just gotta do it.
Like don't waste time like thisis this is what life is for and
and so to me it just seems likeI don't know how I'm gonna make
this happen, but I think this isgoing to happen.
And so I'll admit it was acouple more years later before I

(41:53):
actually took the first step anddid you create the first trip.

SPEAKER_00 (41:57):
I'm curious if you had other people in your life
that were supportive obviouslythis couple was very encouraging
but as far as job with themagazine like did you have the
ability to say hey this is whatI really want to do were they
supportive or your family backhome you know because sometimes
people that go into tourismjobs, you were already working
in tourism.

(42:18):
But sometimes when people arelike well I want to quit my job
as an accountant and go start arunning tourism business some
people might say what are youcrazy?
So I'm just curious what kind ofresponses were you getting from
people around you?

SPEAKER_01 (42:29):
Yeah.
Well I was really lucky I thinkthat the the the the magazine
was very supportive because Idid start my business as a side
hustle.
You know I I was just doing oneor two trips a year and they
were cool with me doing that.
And I even got to mention myrunning trips which were just
like weekend long retreats allcentered around trail running

(42:53):
and wellness.
And I got to mention them in themagazines.
And that kind of what got thewhole thing kickstarted is I was
able to really get a lot ofattention and really start to
build my you know my my mycustomer base pretty quickly
because I had access to to thataudience and then also to have
all these other connections inthe travel industry and in

(43:15):
travel media it really helped meget that early momentum.
So I did have that support forthe first couple of years and
also to you know my husband wasreally supportive as well.
And gratefully a few years intoit once I said you know I think
I'm gonna quit my full-time joband go just do this travel
business even though it's not afull-time job yet and I have no

(43:39):
idea how I'm gonna make it onebut I I think I need to do this
and you know I'm really gratefulhe was very supportive as I made
that transition because yeah itit you know it took a little
while to kind of build somethingthat was just a part-time
business into a full-timebusiness.

SPEAKER_00 (43:55):
Do you remember the first because there's you've got
a couple things you mentionedyou kind of started as I'm gonna
say side hustle, whatever, asthe side job while you're
working for the magazine andthen there was the moment okay
I'm gonna quit the magazine andI'm gonna put all my time and
effort into into the business.
But I guess the question wasthere a particular action you
took that really you feel likeyep, that was the thing that

(44:17):
started it.
Not just inspired you but wasthere a so an example might be
somebody listening this mightmaybe they started their tour
business by going online andbuying a domain name.
They're like I just got to dosomething like I don't know what
I'm gonna do but I'm gonna gobuy a domain name or I'm gonna
design a logo or whatever beforethey've ever actually done

(44:38):
anything else.
Was there something like thatfor you?

SPEAKER_01 (44:41):
I mean there was it was just a lot of like almost
taking just the next step, youknow what was the first step?

SPEAKER_00 (44:47):
What would you say the first step was?

SPEAKER_01 (44:49):
First step was I'm like good question what was it?
It was probably booking thevenue for the very first
retreat.
So I had to just like pick aplace, get some dates.
So you know I did that and andand so then I knew when where it
was going Be, I knew when it wasgoing to be, and worked out, you
know, what we were going to dowhile we were there, scouted out

(45:10):
the trails, figured out what Iwas going to charge and how I
was going to feed people.
And uh yeah, and then and thenstart to talk about it and
promote it.
But coming from this marketingbackground, promoting it was
kind of the the funnest part forme.
That was the easy part.

SPEAKER_00 (45:29):
I know how to do this.

SPEAKER_01 (45:30):
Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 (45:32):
Probably even had some probably even had some
friends in the business thatmaybe would want to get involved
and promote it a little bit,journalists, writers, stuff like
that.
I'm curious.

SPEAKER_01 (45:40):
I did, I did.
Well, and that that throughoutthe whole growth of the
business.
So over the course of 14 years,I had a lot of press coverage.
And it's because I knew how todo that.
I had those connections and Iknew how to make those pitches.
I hosted writers on our tripsseveral times throughout the
years.
And like what really helped witha huge step of growth was like

(46:04):
about a decade in, I hosted awriter uh from the Washington
Post.
And that turns out her articlewas syndicated in newspapers
across the country.
And I mean, we just the kind ofyou know, our business really
blew up after that.
And that's when I started like,I'm like, I need to hire, I need
to build a team, and like thisis really taking off.

(46:26):
And and so at each, you know,period there, there there was,
there would be another thingthat would just help facilitate
kind of that next level ofgrowth that was just exciting
and such a thrilling ride.
It's crazy now.
I look back at it.

SPEAKER_00 (46:40):
I I'm sure it is.
That very so the first retreatthat you set up, you went out
and got it got everything setup.
You just told us about all that.
It was a success because youkept doing it.
Regardless of what happened, itwas a success.
So I'm I'm reluctant to ask you,was it successful?
Yes, it was, but was itsuccessful in the way you'd
hoped it would be at the time?

SPEAKER_01 (47:00):
I think initially I just wasn't really sure what to
expect.
I didn't have like specificgoals or expectations.
I just wanted to have enoughpeople there to make it fun and
feel, yeah, exactly.
And and feel like, oh my gosh,like I I actually made money on
this, and I had more people thanI was even aiming for.

(47:21):
And and you know, it was likejust testing a concept in my
mind.
And and it worked, you know, andso that's one of the really one
of the early lessons that Ilearned that then became kind of
a guiding principle throughoutthe evolution of the whole
company from like a one-personoperation to, you know, a big

(47:42):
multi-million dollars a year'sseven people on the team kind of
operation, was that at that veryfirst retreat, the reason I
thought people were coming endedup not being the reason that
people were coming.
Because my initial concept was Ijust want to introduce more
women to the sport of trailrunning and help them like learn

(48:03):
the skill and just feelcomfortable running on trails in
the woods as opposed to on youknow roads and stuff like that.
And it made sense where I wascoming from with the world of
working for the runningmagazine, and it was a very
male-dominated sport at thetime.
And so, but once we got thereand all the women were together,
and we're in this lodge in thein the Rocky Mountains, and

(48:27):
we're all just hanging out andtalking together and like
connecting, it made me realizethat, like, okay, what really is
bringing us together is thisshared love of running.
But it's it just as women, wejust really wanted to connect
with other women who that wefelt in alignment with, like, we
just understood each other, weunderstood why this is important
to us and what running does forus mentally and physically, and

(48:51):
just enjoyed being out in natureand running on beautiful trails.
And so the big takeaway fromthat was for me was always
listen to to really what thecustomer is saying that they
value about the experience thatyou create.
And try not to be distracted bywhat I think it is I'm selling
or the reasons why this offeringis what it is.

(49:15):
But if I always listen to whatthe customer says that they care
about and why they're there andwhat brought them and focus the
messaging on that and alwaysdesign the experience around
what the customer says that theyget out of it, then you you'll
always win.
You'll always have kind of thatthat right value proposition

(49:36):
that makes it so much moreeasier to stand out in the
marketplace or you know, likedesign a trip that's going to
really appeal to the rightmarket.

SPEAKER_00 (49:45):
What do you what do you think your superpower is as
far as figuring that out soquickly?
Even on this, it sounds like onthe first retreat.
What is the what is your yeah,what is your superpower that was
able to help you figure thatout?
Because there's a lot of peopleout there that have been in
business a long time that if youask them what their customers
want, they have no idea.

SPEAKER_01 (50:04):
Yeah.
So well, I think coming from theworld of of like media and
storytelling, I I got to seelike the best in the business,
how they listen to people andhow they tell though their
stories.
And so I feel like I was exposedthroughout my career to people
who are really good at that.

(50:24):
And it helped me learn just howimportant that is in business,
how important it is in businessto make sure that you're really
listening clearly andunderstanding the bigger story
that they're trying to tell youabout why this is important to
them and why they're here andreally what they want to get out
of it.
And so um, so I think thatreally became my superpower.

(50:47):
And throughout the wholebusiness, I built it into the
business model and it looked sodifferent over the years.
Like in the early years of mybusiness, it was about me being
there at the retreats, listeningto what people were saying.
But then later in the business,I'm not the one there
interacting directly with thecustomers.
So we had to createcommunication systems uh that

(51:09):
allowed our customers to give usfeedback in a way that we could
actually receive and then use toeither make our services better
or to uh you know improve ourcustomer onboarding process,
improve our communicationsystems, adjust our marketing
messages, like to make sure thatwe we systematize that process

(51:34):
as the business grew so that itnever got lost.

SPEAKER_00 (51:37):
Right.
And I I remember a little whileago I said, well, we're not
gonna go into strategies andspecifics and dah-da-da-da.
But I'll tell you what, here'san opportunity that anybody
listening to this, like, they'regonna wish I would have asked.
Can so because there are a lotof tour operators that listen to
this, and that is a struggle formost of them is a few things.
One is feedback systems.

SPEAKER_02 (51:55):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (51:55):
Especially if they've got a team and they're
not actually spending time withtheir clients, because the
feedback they're getting mightbe the guides, but the guides
have their own desires and needsand wishes and reasons why
they're guides.
And the guide might want to talkabout the transfer driver was
late again, da-da-da-da-da.
And so it's all you're hearingis we have logistical problems.

(52:16):
When in reality, maybe thatdelay created an opportunity for
a group of ladies to go grabsome street food and and connect
with the local culture, andmaybe the guests thought it was
amazing, and the guide is allfrustrated and annoyed because
they're trying to stay stay on atime time schedule.
That's just an example in mymind that popped up.
So, a tour operator that'slistening to this.

(52:37):
What advice is there aparticular strategy that or
tactic that worked really wellfor you that as far as getting
that type of feedback?
Any a little nugget you canshare?

SPEAKER_01 (52:49):
Yeah, gosh.
I mean, I think it's reallyimportant that there's a there's
really good communication atevery step of the customer
journey, you know, and uh and sowhether it's in your in the
sales process, you know, we wespent a lot of time really
refining just what thoseconversations sounded like.
It's making sure that you know,we we were it was always very

(53:13):
much about like listening firstto what the customer had to say,
because sometimes they wouldtell us like their whole like
running history and like an oran inventory of their running
injuries because they want to,they were saying, like, well, I
want to do this one runningtrip, but I have all these, you
know, old injuries and these aremy limitations and these are my
needs.
Can I still do this trip?

(53:34):
And and so that we could answerthose questions, you know, as
accurately and specifically towhat they wanted to know as
possible so that they could makethe right uh decision for them,
because you know, it's it's apretty big deal to book a big
group uh vacation.
And then, you know, and thenafter it took place, kind of

(53:55):
having that that feedbacksystem, I was pretty reluctant
initially to incorporate thingslike NPS scores, net promoter
score, but it actually does turnout to be a really useful tool.
What I like about it is you'renot asking travelers to fill out
like a big questionnaire at theend of every trip, which can

(54:15):
feel a little bit cumbersome andtransactional.
And and really wasn't the kindof relationship we wanted to
have with our with our clients.
But a simple NPS survey wherethey just pick a number from one
to ten, how likely are they torecommend that trip to another
friend?
And then after they pick thatnumber on a scale of one to ten,

(54:37):
they have a space in which tojust free write whatever it is
as most of the time.

SPEAKER_02 (54:41):
Why did you choose that number, right?

SPEAKER_01 (54:43):
You know, yeah, that's where I felt like, okay,
now we're just getting reallyhonest comments.
And uh and then we had a systemfor kind of filtering through
those comments and and lookingthrough like, okay, so is this
something that we could havedone better, you know, or is it
just something that's more aboutthe traveler and has really
nothing to do with anything thatwe did?

(55:03):
Um, so we we kind of had to beable to discern about that.
But giving people opportunitiesto be heard, uh, whether it's in
the context of praise or ofreview or feedback or a sales
question is absolutely criticalto to this industry, right?
We it's a service-basedindustry, and and so make giving

(55:25):
people that those opportunitiesis essential and is is so
important to building trust.

SPEAKER_00 (55:31):
So I think you're I think you're that's spot on
because you know, anybodylistening to this has been posed
with a big questionnaire afterthey spend all this money to go
on a trip.
And then they get, what did youthink about the accommodations?
What did you think about thebathroom?
What did you think about the thetransfer vehicle?
And it's just overwhelming.
And most people probably onlyreally have one thing that

(55:54):
they're either really happyabout or that disappointed them
that they really want to talkabout.
And asking them about everythingon the trip, and then hoping
that they'll fill it out andhoping that you will be bright
enough to find the one thingthey really wanted to talk about
is uh is is different.
Where yeah, it's just like,what's the one thing?
And I remember I worked uh Itravel a lot in the Caribbean,

(56:15):
and there was a lodge that I'ddone some business with in
Belize, and the guy that ranthat place, he would just his
only question, they didn't sendout any questionnaires.
He was there at the lodge, soevery time they left, he's like,
What's the one thing I could doto make this place better?
Just that was it.

SPEAKER_02 (56:31):
That's great.
That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 (56:34):
And you felt like he was listening.
So it could be like, well, youknow, colder beer at the bar or
more more rum drinks, or uh, youknow, the the fishing guide we
were with all week was kind ofyou know grumpy or whatever, you
know, so work with them.
And and you it cut down thenoise because then you're only
hearing what's important.
So and that's what it soundslike you were doing as well.

(56:56):
So that's why I wanted to tiethat together.
All right.
That's cool.
Somebody's gonna use that andthey're gonna think of you, and
then they're gonna come back.
Hey, Eleanor, how many otherwhat other things can we do be
doing?
I'd be happy to but also gettingfeedback like that, I suspect,
you know, especially tracking itand you know, taking some action

(57:17):
with it or whatever, it has tohelp when you go to sell a
business too, because you couldsay, well, our net promoter
scores are this and this, andgenerally this is the type of
feedback we get.
And when we get that feedback,these are how we implement the
changes, and as opposed to,well, I've got a bunch of
reviews.
I mean, that's great too.
Reviews are great.
I'm not saying they're not, butit's it's just another layer.
All right, that's very cool.

(57:37):
So let's got unless you want totouch on something else before
we move into it.
But I think now we get to say,okay, you've got this tour
business, you had this tourbusiness, and now you're a
consultant that helps otherpeople build value in their tour
businesses.
So let's take the leap.
How did we get from one to theother?

SPEAKER_01 (57:54):
Yeah, okay.
Well, I'm like, where do I startwith that?
But I I think, you know,obviously when I think back to
COVID times, you know, 2020 wasbrutal on the travel industry.
And um, I was just reallyrelieved that I made it through
with my business intact becausethat was just such a tough
period on a lot of travelbusiness owners.

(58:17):
You know, and it kind of led meto do a pivot with my company
because we were mostlyinternational trips.
And then we kind of pivotedthere for like a little while to
mostly domestic trips.
And then as international travelreopened, we, you know, reopened
a lot of our internationaltrips.
And so then I had all thesedomestic trips and all these
international trips, and youknow, the demand for travel,

(58:40):
there was so much pent-updemand, right?
Yeah, yeah.
That definitely helped fuel abig period of growth in my
company that was reallyexciting, but it definitely
tested me and my my capacity asa leader.
And I learned a ton, made a lotof new hires, built up my team
of retreat leaders and my mytravel operations team, and

(59:02):
added to my marketing team.
And so it was a lot of thingsgoing on all at once.
And it was kind of in the midstof that.
I'm like, okay, I think I thinkI may have taken this as far as
I intended to.
Probably, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (59:18):
I think you could have taken, I think you could
have taken it further.
But I I heard you want to saythat as far as I want to take
it.
Maybe someone else can take itto the next level, huh?

SPEAKER_01 (59:27):
Exactly.
Like I knew that there was stilla lot, like this business was
growing and I knew it had a hugeuh future potential, but my
personal priorities had kind ofshifted.
Um, I wanted to focus more onfamily, and I I just was
starting to feel like I feel Ifelt like I had lost parts of
myself in that whole process.
And that my whole life reallyhad been about running my

(59:49):
business and it was paying off.
And I I felt like, okay, this issucceeding.
This is what I wanted to create,but I don't have a life outside
of this.
And and so it really kind of gotme thinking, and so, like I said
earlier, like I really startedto prepare the company for sale
two years before I actually did.

(01:00:11):
And when I first started thatthat process with more
intention, it I thought I wasgonna sell in maybe like five or
more years, but like, but youknow, the burnout just kind of
accelerated.
And I just kind of felt like,okay, I think this is gonna have
to happen sooner rather thanlater.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:28):
Well, I'm I'm curious, I you've experienced
it.
I've experienced I've I I'm notthe most patient person on
earth.
So I'm gonna try and tie it tothe analogy of just somebody
working a job.
Maybe they love the job, butthen as soon as they decide
they're gonna leave, you know.
What they call it short-termers,short-timer syndrome.
I remember in the army was whenyou were getting close to
getting out, it was like, justget me out of here.

(01:00:50):
So once you kind of emotionallystart planning your departure,
it seems like it speeds up alittle bit.
Does that resonate or yeah?

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:00):
Yeah, yeah.
When I started to think about,you know, and I was working with
some advisors of people thatwere helping me, and they were
asking me, like, well, whatwould you do if you sold your
business?
And I was like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:11):
I'm going to Maui.
I don't know what else.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:14):
I was like, oh my gosh, I was like, oh, I would
take a vacation.
I'm just like, no one can callme, and I could just like relax
a little bit.
And when I started to thinkabout that, it just kind of like
the mindset started to shift.
I'm like, yeah, this has got tohappen.
I really am ready to to be opento new and other things, you

(01:01:37):
know, and and also too, like mymy son's at an age, he's 17, and
he's got a lot of excitingthings happening in his life.
And I I wanted to be a part ofthat.
He gets to now travel forsports, and I wanted to be able
to go with him on those trips.
And so, but I just felt a littletoo, you know, my business was

(01:01:58):
pretty dependent on me.
And so when I talk about likepreparing my business for sale,
that was really what I needed todo was to say, okay, how do I
get me out of the center of thisthing that I built that has
become so all-consuming?
And so what that really lookedlike was starting to look at the

(01:02:18):
business as a set of systems.
And then one by one, like, howdo I make them operate more
independently of me?
So, not to say that I everstepped out of the business
altogether.
I was still the CEO.
I was definitely driving theship, but it's not like every
system and part depended on meevery single day, because that

(01:02:42):
was the part that wasunsustainable.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:45):
So that's I I I get that completely.
So you said you started workingon it, started preparing to sell
about two years before youactually finalize the sale.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:55):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:57):
And you thought it might be five years, but it
ended up being two.
Zach, did I get the math right?

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:03):
Yeah, yeah.
And it's because once I get mymind on something, I like I'm an
executor.
I move fast and I execute.
And so, so yeah, from 2022 to2024, I'm uh yeah, focusing on
taking these right actions.
I develop my my plan.

(01:03:24):
I I learned how to calculatebusiness valuation and I'm
working with some advisors on onhow to do that.
And and so then it was likeearly 2024.
In January 2024, I was like,okay, you know what?
Now's the time.
So I reached out to a businessbroker who turned out just to be

(01:03:44):
just like a great fit for me.
We just clicked on a personallevel, it just and he kind of
said, okay, here's how this isgonna go.
We're going to put together amarketing package, we're gonna
take it to market.
And he really tried to manage myexpectations that you know, that
this can take a while.
That you know, it usually takesmaybe 12 to 18 months before you

(01:04:08):
find the right buyer, and I'mlike, oh my gosh, I'm not sure.
I'm just so ready for this nextchapter.
I've already decided, like, it'stime for me to move on.
But now because I had done kindof all this work in terms of
organizing and preparing thebusiness, I'm very proud to say
that for when we went live onlike live online, the business

(01:04:31):
listing is for for sale, Iaccepted an offer 30 days later.
I got an offer on the business,and then the due diligence that
usually takes months and monthsand sometimes a year, I had all
my documentation in order, andthat was done in 30 days.

(01:04:51):
And then 40 45 days after that,I was done.
I I was able to walk away.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:57):
And so anybody that's listening to this that
owns a business and has spokenwith a broker that told them the
same thing, is gonna it's gonnawant to get on a call with you,
I think.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:08):
Yeah, and yeah, let's get this thing.
How did how did we do that?
And that's very cool.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:13):
Did you know?
As far as how was it was as faras how it was structured, did
you presumably kept running thecompany until you handed them
I'm gonna say the keys, but didyou have it was part of the
structure for you to stickaround for a while or stay on as
consultant?
Or like Yeah.
How did you structure that partof it?

(01:05:33):
I mean, we don't need to go intoall the detail.
I'm just curious if at theminute it was done, you were
done and you could go dowhatever you wanted to do, or
did you need to stick around alittle bit?

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:41):
Well, it was really just that 45-day transition
period.
And the thing was, the reasonwhy I was able to be so short
was because I didn't need tostick around and train the new
owner on how to do things.
Because what I had done is madesure to fill, uh, or I not just
fill, but I had a really strongteam of employees that

(01:06:03):
transferred with the business.
So everyone had ownership overtheir departments, their roles
and responsibilities were superclear.
They were all working veryindependently.
And so they all transferred andkept doing their exact same
roles after the sale closed.
So that and then the jobs thatwere still on my plate were

(01:06:25):
minimal in terms of myday-to-day activities.
And I had made like how-tovideos, documentation for those
few remaining routine tasks, uh,you know, leadership style
activities.
And so we didn't even need afull 45 days for me to complete
that process with the new owner.

(01:06:47):
They were able to pick up thereins very quickly and continue
operations uninterrupted.
And that was really my goalbecause I didn't want our
customers to feel any kind ofshift or interruption to the
services they were receiving.
And this all happened.
Like during a pretty busy timeof year, too.

(01:07:07):
You know, we didn't wait untilthe slow season.
It was like full-on mid season.
We got trips happening in likefour or five different
countries.
I've got, you know, field staffcoming and going, uh, traveling
to different places with theirgroups.
It was all happening.
And I'm really proud of howeveryone handled it and that

(01:07:28):
that everything kind of keptgoing really, really smoothly
throughout that wholetransition.
So yeah, because I knew once thenew owner took the reins, I knew
that I I didn't really want tohave to stay too involved and I
didn't need to.
So it worked really well.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:45):
As I was listening to that, I I realized it's
probably a common concern whensomeone is thinking about
selling their business,especially these types of
businesses, is what you touchedon a little bit was the staff,
you know, because in these smallbusinesses, especially I think
where it's about experiences andabout human connections.
It's, you know, it's not a asandwich shop, it's a tour

(01:08:07):
business.
Um there's that I can imaginesomebody that's like, man, I'd
really like to get out of this,but I worry about my employees
and if I sell the business anduh, you know, and the new owner
doesn't like them or comes inand makes changes or whatever.
But then I also imagine there'sbuyers that are like, well,
geez, what if I buy thisbusiness and then the whole
staff picks up and and leaves togo work for the competition?

(01:08:29):
So that has to be a big part ofthis conversation.
So what would you say to theperson that's listening to this,
thinking the the seller that, ornot, yeah, the seller that's
hearing this that's like, Iwould have sold my business four
years ago, but I worry about mystaff.
What would you say to is there away to address that?
Like, what do you say to thatperson?

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:48):
Yeah, I mean, so it there's a number of things that
that's so important to that.
And and it's it really dependson kind of what your culture is
in the company.
Um, but being really clear aboutwhat your individual key
employees' motivations are, likehow do they see their future in
your company?
What do they want to get out ofthat?

(01:09:09):
Is like to them, is it just ajob, or is it something where
they are hoping to grow with thecompany?

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:15):
Do they have ambitions to maybe they're
hoping maybe they're hoping toown the company.
Maybe they were hoping that theywould be offered the opportunity
to exactly.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:25):
And so that's why it's really important that you,
as the owner, know uh that aboutkind of your key employees so
that you can kind of anticipatehow they may react to the news
if you're selling, or thatthere's gonna be some other kind
of like leadership change.
Because you know how like peopleare gonna first and foremost
think, how does this affect meas an employee?

(01:09:46):
And so and then looking foropportunities to take your
existing team that that maybethe people who are performing
well and have, you know, a goodhandle on how things work, is
there an opportunity to toelevate that person to more of a
managerial role?
Does that person would theywould they be able to step up
into higher levels ofresponsibility with your support

(01:10:09):
for for them to develop thoseskills to become a manager so
that when the business transfersover to a new owner, they have
that job security because thenthe the seller can say to that
buyer, like, hey, look, I've gota really strong management team.
They know the ins and outs ofthis business, and they're going
to, you know, they're some ofour best assets, basically.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:32):
So do you do you do that in a way like do you go to
Bob?
He's your he's like, he's superrock star.
He could probably run thebusiness if given the
opportunity.
Do you go to Bob and say, heyBob, I'm thinking about I'm
planning to sell the businessand I want to, you know, work
with you to have it work reallywell for you as well, either in

(01:10:54):
a management role, or maybe evenyou have a conversation with Bob
about Bob buying the businessbefore you go put it on online
somewhere.
But that could also backfire.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:03):
Yeah, I mean, there's risk in there.
So it really depends on thesituation.
It may or may not be wise todivul the fact that you're
thinking of selling.
Um, because yeah, you there's anumber of different ways that
could play out.
So, so in a lot of cases,employees are not informed of

(01:11:24):
the sale beforehand.
But then in other instances,yes, maybe you know, the the the
future owner of the business issomeone who's already working in
the business.
So yeah, it just kind of dependson the situation.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:38):
And you know, what would ease if I was an employee
and I woke up on Tuesday morningand found out wow, Eleanor sold
the business.
There's two scenarios.
One is go back five yearsearlier when when it was go ask
Eleanor.
I'm not sure what we need to do.
Ask Eleanor, ask Eleanor, askEleanor.
You sell the business when thebusiness is running that way,

(01:12:00):
that's scary.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:00):
Well, yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:01):
But when the when the business has all these
systems in place where everybodyknows what they're supposed to
do, and Eleanor just shows upfor the Christmas party, that's
an exaggeration, of course.
But then it's like, okay, well,Eleanor, you know, she's
organized, she's put systems inplace, she's uh leveraged
herself across the team.
So it's not things are notlikely to turn into a train

(01:12:22):
wreck three days after thebusiness sells.
So that's another benefit ofcoming up with a plan, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:27):
Yeah, exact exactly.
And and that's the thing, is isthe the last thing any seller
would want is for an employee totake an action or to to do
something that that causes thedeal to collapse, which I mean,
I guess it could happen, butyeah, you it that's why that
planning and and being reallythoughtful about all the
different aspects of it isreally important and it's worth

(01:12:50):
investing that that time andenergy in the business.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:53):
So it's a little bit more complicated than selling a
house.
You said it was a good analogy,but there's there's a few
different levels there.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:59):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:59):
That all right.
So so cool.
So you've been through it,you've had the experience,
you've done that, and that's Iguess at what point did you
decide open air consulting wasthe path?
Did you fit did you already knowthat before you finished selling
the business, or did that comeup later when you're like, you
know?
Yeah.
Well, I learned a lot, I canhelp people.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:18):
Well, exactly.
I think I definitely knew thatpretty early on.
Um, I took a nice longsabbatical right after the sale.
So I'm like, don't need to workfor a while.
This is nice.
And so I just kind of neededthat career break, which was
great.
But yeah, I I as anentrepreneur, I just couldn't
imagine going back to workingfor someone else.
It's like I did that earlier inmy career, but I just don't, I

(01:13:40):
cannot imagine working forsomeone else.

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:44):
So and I cannot imagine you not working, just
based on the conversation I'vehad with you so far.
You're you're obviously drivenand you like to be involved and
like to be part of part ofthings that are happening.
So I I I get that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:57):
So yeah, yeah, definitely was not ready.
If people keep joking, like, oh,so are you retired now?
I'm like, oh my God, are youkidding?
I'd go crazy.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:05):
I feel so yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:07):
And then this is fun.
Like now I I try I try toapproach business, you know,
whereas before, you know, I thereason why I got so burnt out
running my company was becauseit just felt like I could never
just stop and coast.
It was like there was alwayskind of a new, a new threshold
to break through.
There was always kind of a newchallenge to address, like there

(01:14:28):
was always something, and I justfelt like I could never just
like enjoy, enjoy it, except forthat last those, that last year
there, I actually got to well, Istill owned a business, so I
actually did get to take aEuropean vacation and go and
travel with my son.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:42):
And I was like, Because because you took all the
time to set it up to where youdidn't have to be there anymore.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:50):
Exactly.
I had I had done the prep work,it it could run without me.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:55):
So you and I I know you I know you heard what you
just said.
I heard what you just said, butwhat I heard you say is even if
you don't want to sell yourbusiness, even if you can't
imagine selling your business,gosh, wouldn't it be nice if you
didn't have to be there all thetime?

SPEAKER_01 (01:15:10):
Yeah, you just have the freedom to be like, oh gee,
I need to step away for a while,you know.

SPEAKER_00 (01:15:16):
So so you don't just advise people on how to sell
their business, how to get theirbusiness ready to sell.
You you can the same exactadvice would help them free up
their time and their havefreedom to go do things and
enjoy, maybe actually enjoytheir business, right?
Is that an accurate statement?

SPEAKER_01 (01:15:32):
Absolutely.
It should be enjoyable.
It doesn't have to be allconsuming, you know.
And now that I can I have thatperspective, I can see it like
more clearly.
And that's why I love doing thework I do now.
You know, I see it as more of acreative process.
It's not about making everybusiness a cookie-cutter.

(01:15:52):
It's not trying to say yourbusiness sees to fit this model
or you we're going to you knowshoehorn it into a certain
structure.
It's it definitely should alwaysbe a creative expression of the
owner, the founder's kind ofvalues and philosophy and
passions.
And that never has to go away,but there's also a way to just

(01:16:15):
make it also more fun, even asit grows and becomes more
complex.
And there's more uh, you know,there's kind of more
consequences and risk involvedas a business grows, but it can
it can still be fun.
It still can be rewarding.
And it uh and so I love kind ofgoing on that journey with

(01:16:35):
business owners that are curiousabout what that could look like
for them.

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:39):
Because you said, well, the last year it wasn't
bad.
I was able to go on a Europeanvacation and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:45):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:46):
So I have to ask, was there a point after you did
the sale where you're like, youknow, the last year was actually
not bad?
Maybe I could have, maybe Icould have just kept the company
and and ran it that way for awhile.
Was there a point where youregretted it?

SPEAKER_01 (01:17:02):
Yes.
And I've since learned that Ithink the statistic is 80 or 90
percent of business ownerspost-acquisition say the same
thing.
They also I really wish I hadwait, waited or done it
differently, or they have somekind of regret, you know.
And so yeah, that's prettycommon because it's you see it

(01:17:25):
differently once you have alittle bit of distance from you
know what could be like thebiggest transaction of your life
for some people, you know, youyou look back and see it
differently, you know, when it'sall said and done.

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:37):
I bet the numbers are similar for people that
retire.
Yeah, you know, they maybe theywork a career for 30 years and
they get offered an earlyretirement package or whatever,
and they take it and thenthey're like, geez, I kind of
kind of miss having gollies orwhatever it is.
You know, I miss identity is abig thing.

SPEAKER_01 (01:17:57):
It's huge.

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:58):
Yeah.
Like my my mom, she's not gonnalisten to this anyway.
I keep trying to get her tolisten to these, but she went,
you know, worked in academia andwas the chair of a school of
physical therapy, a doctoralprogram.
She had that was her identity.
You know, it was her, her dogs,and her job, her career.
And when she retired, it's like,you know, it just it's like now

(01:18:21):
her identity is retired.
And I'm not saying there'sanything wrong with that.
A lot of people really lookforward to that.
But identity can be a big thing,you know.

SPEAKER_02 (01:18:29):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (01:18:29):
Like I'm a I'm an adventure tour operator.
I lead tours and I take groups,and I've got these employees
that do this amazing job, andand I get to read reviews from
people that are happy.
We've changed lives.
And now I'm retired.
And I'm not saying that you wentthere, but because you didn't,
because uh obviously you'restill working.
But yeah, I can I get that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:18:49):
Yeah, yeah.
I get that.
But my work now, my pace of ofwork is so different now, you
know, and part of that isintentional, but also too, like
this this work isn't as allconsuming as running a whole
company with a whole team.
But uh yeah, it definitely waskind of this feeling of loss for
a little bit.
And I think it's reallyimportant to as I kind of help

(01:19:12):
go on this journey with withbusiness owners, is to to help
them prepare for kind of the theidentity shifts and the the
feelings of of loss that comeup.
Because yes, you get paid out,or at least you you get an
agreement that you will be paidover time or whatever the terms
are, you know, but then youstart to realize just how how

(01:19:33):
big of a part of your identitythe business was and what that
means for you now.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:19:39):
Yeah, yeah.
I I get that.
We could keep, I I've got somestories.
I know you've got stories wecould probably keep going on
about that all all day.
I also want to, so somebody'slistening to this that's like,
yeah, that sounds cool.
It's probably something I shouldthink about, but I'm not ready
to hire someone.
I like I don't even know whatthat looks like.
And this is not an infomercial,but somebody's listening to

(01:20:00):
this.
And so I think it would be goodfor you to share with them what
would you suggest if somebody'sjust kind of pointing around at
the idea, would like to have aconversation, but doesn't feel
like they're ready to actuallyhire anybody or do anything,
would would you still encouragethem to reach out on your
website or or do you have otherresources they should look at?
Or what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:20):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Well, I love just having theseconversations and helping
business owners understand maybewhere they are in terms of their
business development and andjust where to start.
And and often that conversationstarts with them wanting to know
what is what is my businessworth today?
So I do have a freeself-assessment on my website uh

(01:20:42):
that people can take.
And that can be just a goodstarting point because it gives
them like a 17-page analysis ofthe business based on the data
that they can provide.
And then they we can set up acall where we can get on the
phone and we can go through thattogether and just make sure that
we have a mutual understandingof like what this means and and

(01:21:04):
what your path might look likefrom this point in your business
development.
So that's on my website, whichis openairconsulting.

SPEAKER_00 (01:21:12):
So that sounds really good for somebody that
feels they're organized andthey're emotionally ready to see
numbers that maybe many of themjust totally have avoided for 20
years.
I'm not sure I want to know whatmy business is worth because it
could be depressing.
It could be sad or whatever.
But somebody that's that'sorganized and is really thinking

(01:21:32):
about it and is willing to sitdown and do that.
Do you also, is there other waysfor people to connect with you
just to, hey Eleanor, I justhave a quick question.
Like I have this idea in my headthat I can't sell my business
because my because I don't know,my my brother-in-law is the
manager, whatever.
And they just want to bounce anidea off somebody.

(01:21:53):
Is that is there a way for themto connect with you that way?
Or I just trying to do that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:21:58):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I mean, I I hang out on LinkedInuh where they could they can
find me.
And also too, I'm members of aI'm member of a couple of
different communities as well,the Adventure Travel Trade
Association.
So I chat with people on thecommunity hub there.
So when you're a member of thatorganization, um you you're on

(01:22:18):
the hub.
And also women travel leadersonline community as well.
So if you're a member of thatorganization, you can also reach
out to me at Women TravelLeaders in the online community.

SPEAKER_00 (01:22:29):
All right, very cool.
And I suspect just because we'regoing to have your website link
right in the show notes.
If I click that, they'llprobably be able to figure the
rest of that out in differentways to connect with you.
We discussed a bunch of things,and I told you before I hit the
record button that I would giveyou an opportunity.
If there's anything I forgot toask you or wish that I had asked
you, you'd have an opportunity.
So is there anything else kindof still lingering that that we

(01:22:52):
didn't touch on that you want totouch on before we wrap up?

SPEAKER_01 (01:22:55):
Oh gosh, I think we covered a lot, Jason.
That's just really fun.
Like you kind of took me on ajourney down memory lane, you
know.
So those are really fun to kindof reflect on, you know, all the
things, you know, that have kindof led me to do this work now.
So I so I think I think we'regood.

SPEAKER_00 (01:23:12):
It's so much fun for me.
I just feel so grateful everytime I have a conversation like
this.
I'm like, that's pretty cool.
I got to, you know, spend anhour, hour and a half having a
conversation with somebodythat's really interesting and in
a lot of ways very similar.
Because we're all like, we allhave our own little paths, but
they're all kind of the same ina way.
We all just kind of relate to toeach other in this in this

(01:23:35):
space, and that's so much fun.
So thanks for thanks for takingtime to share that with me.
And uh, look forward to stayingconnected with you in the
future.
Thank you so much, Omar.

SPEAKER_02 (01:23:45):
Thank you.
Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 (01:23:46):
Have a great day.

unknown (01:23:47):
Bye.

SPEAKER_01 (01:23:47):
You too.

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Adventure Travel with Elinor Fish - Open Air Consulting

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Adventure Travel with Elinor Fish - Open Air Consulting