Adventure Travel with Eva Westerling - Berber Adventure Tours Morocco - Adventure Travel Podcast - Big World Made Small

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (01:05):
Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of
the Big World Made Small podcastfor the Adventure Traveler.
So happy to have each and everyone of you back today, and I'm
also very excited to have ourguest today.
We've got Eva Westerling.
She is the co-owner of BerberAdventure Tours in Morocco.
Eva, welcome to the show.
Happy to have you here.

SPEAKER_02 (01:23):
Thank you so much, Jason.
Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_00 (01:25):
This can be a super fascinating conversation.
I know a little bit of yourstory already, but I
intentionally did not ask you toshare everything with me the
first time we spoke because Iwant it to be new for me as well
as our audience.
So thank you so much for that.
And before we jump into kind ofyour story to figure out how you
got from where you were to whereyou are now, let's just give our
listeners kind of a chance tounderstand what is it that you

(01:47):
do at Berber Adventure Tours inMorocco.

SPEAKER_02 (01:51):
So our main focus is on desert trekking, camel
tracking, desert hiking forsmall groups.
It's mostly private groups.
Every once in a while we dogroup tours.
And we also organize customtrips all around Morocco with a
focus of off-the-beaten pathlocations.
We try to support as many womenas possible on the way.

(02:11):
So yeah, I guess that sums itup.

SPEAKER_00 (02:13):
Very cool.
So when you said we try andsupport as many women as we can
along the way, are we talkingabout the local women that work
in the communities as well asyour your guests?
I'm sure you've got quite a fewwomen that come on the trips as
well.
But what do you mean by thatwhen you say we try to support
the women?

SPEAKER_02 (02:29):
No, I mean locals.
We try to work with as manyfemale-owned uh businesses.
Oh sorry, now my anti-antivirusis popping up.
You will have to edit that out.

SPEAKER_00 (02:40):
So sorry.
No, it's an it's an unscruptedcall.
You just proved to everybodythat that we don't cut things
out.
It's no what, no, no big deal.
But so anyway, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (02:50):
Anyways, so yeah, we we try to work with as many
women along the route.
Women owned restaurants, hotels,guides that work in Morocco.
It's sometimes hard to find.
Like um, we haven't really founda female driver yet that speaks
either good English or German.
So yeah, it's uh it's still avery male-dominated, yeah.

(03:10):
Tourism is very male-dominatedin Morocco.
So I'm but I'm trying.
I'm always on the lookout andscouting for female businesses
everywhere.
Very cool.
Put them on my list.

SPEAKER_00 (03:22):
Do you I'm just curious, and I this, you know,
we're not here to have apolitical conversation or change
cultures and societies, I guess.
Well, maybe we are, but uh, doyou get pushback from the male
operators in the area sometimesif you do have female guides and
stuff like that?
Do you get some resistancearound that or no?

SPEAKER_02 (03:40):
I don't think so.
I at least I've never felt that.
I think they are also happy tosupport that.
They n especially the youngerones, they know it's changing.

SPEAKER_01 (03:48):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (03:49):
It's it's a bit harder.
I mean, we don't we don't justwork with women in like proper
businesses, we also support thelocal nomad families or my
friends in Mezuka where where Ilive.
So, for example, if we have afamily coming on a tour with us,
we offer them to go for either acooking experience or just for a

(04:11):
couscous family dinner to one ofmy friends' houses.
And that is only possible iflike it's if it the the woman of
the family is there, like ourguests.
They we once had a a father andson combo.
We couldn't do that with them.
Like they are not allowed toenter a female environment
without his his wife present.

SPEAKER_00 (04:34):
Okay.
Oh, okay.
All right.

SPEAKER_02 (04:35):
So so it is a bit tricky.
It's no issue at all for forlike solo female travelers or
mother mothers with theirchildren or like a full family,
that's fine too.
At least if I also come alongfor it.
But like solo male guests, wecannot put in those spaces.
That's just not done.

SPEAKER_00 (04:55):
Even even if her husband is in the kitchen, I
mean I say her, meaning theMoroccan woman that is giving
the class or doing it.
So even if her husband's inthere, it doesn't matter.
Your clients can't be thereunless they're with their female
partner or if they have a femalepartner, is that right?
That's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 (05:14):
But it's like it's so I mean, it is still very
traditional and conservative.
Like, even if my partner likecomes looking for me, he would
never knock on their door.
He would call me to come outsideand meet him in the street.
You know, like interesting.
I mean, we we live in a veryrural area where everything is
still really, reallytraditional.

(05:36):
And I think the only likefemales he talks to that are not
from his family would be thenomad women if their husbands
are out with the animals.
Because then they don't have achoice and they do want to
accommodate us, they do want thenews.
And of course, we we also alwayscarry some sort of gifts, like
we we bring some fresh fruit oryou know, things that that are

(05:58):
hard to get for them.
So yes, they they will come outand speak.
But I think now the ones thatknow that I speak some of the
local language, they will stillcome and talk to me and not
necessarily to him, or at leastnot at first.

SPEAKER_00 (06:10):
Okay.
All right.
No, I I get that.
You know, I I do want to askyou, because when you when I
asked you what it is you do, youmentioned kind of desert hikes,
desert walks, desert camelbackriding.
I don't want to say it wrong.
You're gonna correct me if I do.
But so when I imagine that,okay, walking in the desert, I
what's that like?
Because there's I thinkdifferent people can imagine

(06:32):
different things.
It's like, well, why would Iwant to go walk around in the
desert?
Isn't it hot and just a bunch ofsand?
But I suspect there is some coolstuff to see along the way.
So why don't you tell ourlisteners what what that's like
walking in the desert inMorocco?

SPEAKER_02 (06:46):
So it's a lot different to what most people
imagine.
Like most people think they willbe in the sand for five days.
And that's just that's just notwhat happens.
And also, nobody wants that.
Like that's the hardest thing todo, to walk an hour in the soft
sand.
Like I mean, everybody's donethat at the beach, I'm sure.
So we we have a few kind ofstandard routes that we do where

(07:10):
we do get sand dunes at somepoint or another, sometimes even
once a day.
Um but most of the hikinghappens in what's called the
Hamada.
Like it's like a rocky desert,it's like flat and there's
stones of different sizes, so itthere's no path.
We never like walk on path, soyou always have to like find

(07:31):
your way over rocks and throughthe sand and over.
I mean, at the moment it'spretty green because the last
winter was so rainy, so youknow, like you just walk over
bushes and and grasses, and Idon't know.
And there's acacia trees, and onone of the routes they re-wilded
some ostriches and like bigantelopes or gazelles or

(07:53):
something with like big horns,and it's so fun to come across
those, and it's it almost feelslike you're in the Serengeti.
I don't know.
It's really cool.
Um and then we have like oneplace that we go to a lot,
especially with smaller kids.
It's like a small it's silly tocall it a mountain, it's like
150 meters high, but it feelslike a mountain and it's in the
middle of of nowhere, and it'sfull of fossils.

(08:16):
Like the the rocks are full offossils of like really, really
old water underwater creatures.
And half of it is uh covered bysand, so you can you know run
down the sandy side and climbup, finding tons of fossils
along the way.
And it's really fun, andeverybody loves it, and even
people who are not interestedreally get excited once they

(08:39):
find them.

SPEAKER_00 (08:40):
Okay, it's really fun.

SPEAKER_02 (08:42):
So, yeah, that's kind of what what we do.
We we we on the camel trackingtrips, we hike with camels.
You can you can book an extrariding camel, but mostly we walk
with them, so they carry all ourluggage: the tents, the food,
the water.
So we just have to carry our owndrinking water for the day and
maybe a few snacks.

(09:02):
And then we'll walk for, I don'tknow, two hours, have a snack
break, walk another two or threehours, and depending on
temperatures, usually we justset up camp h under a tree
somewhere, have some lunch, andthen the afternoon is just
relaxing and reading orjournaling or whatever, and then
for sunset you find a nicelittle mountain or sand dune or

(09:24):
something to enjoy the view, andthen there's dinner and a
bonfire, and the guys will bakebread for the next morning's
breakfast in the sand, and it'sjust I don't know, it's great.
There's no phone reception, youknow, nothing goes bing bing
bing all day, everybody's justreally in the moment, and it's a
proper digital detox, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (09:47):
Is it is it I'm sure there's a mix, is and I don't
want to overgeneralize, but asfar as your groups, well, two
parts.
One is do you do mixed groups orare these all private groups, or
how did how does that work?

SPEAKER_02 (10:00):
So ninety ninety-five-99% is private
because people contact us with adate in mind that they want to
do.

SPEAKER_01 (10:07):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (10:08):
And they are either couples of families or group of
friends.
Uh we do have a New Year's Evehike every every year.
It's a three-day trip and thatincludes New Year's Eve.
That is open for anyone to book.
Uh so that's usually Yeah, theone group trip of the year.
But every now and then we getinquiries from people who are

(10:29):
open for other people to jointhem on their trip because it
would reduce the price.
Uh, and so we put those as grouptrips on our website as well.
So sometimes we we and they getlucky and we'll find some other
people interested in the samedates and then we'll just throw
them together.

SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
Okay.
Does your does the typicalclient well, maybe I should just
ask you to describe the ticktypical client because I'm a m
yeah, I think I'll just do that.
Or well, here, here's where I'mgoing with this.
Are these typically people thathave done a lot of trekking
trips other places?
They're really into walking andtrekking, and they think, ooh, I
want to go to Morocco, so that'swhy they book a trip like that?

(11:06):
Or are they just people who justwant to go to Morocco and are
open to walking?

SPEAKER_02 (11:10):
I think maybe 15 to 20 percent are the for the first
kind you described, the onesthat are into trekking and they
wanna they come for the for thefitness aspect or the trekking
aspect of it.
The other um 80% are people whojust want to experience the
desert away from the masstourism that we have around

(11:31):
Mazuga.
Like that's really gone crazy inthe last, I would say, five
years, maybe since COVID.
Like before that it was a lotquieter, there were a lot less
camps.
Now it's just masses of likejeeps and buses arriving every
evening, and they throw all thepeople on camels to cross the
dunes and sleep in a camp andcome back before sunrise to go
back to Marrakesh.

SPEAKER_01 (11:51):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (11:52):
And most of our clients are looking for the
opposite of that.
And we don't have like there'snot that much of it around,
especially not with an Englishor German website.
So in even if it takes them somesearching, because I mean we do
rank well on Google, but notnecessarily on the other search
platforms, but they find us inthe end.

(12:13):
They say, Oh, I've I've searchedfor weeks, and then I found you,
and I knew that you would beexactly what I'm looking for,
and um they are so happy.
And so uh Yeah, we we are wewe've built kind of like a
proper niche experience in ourarea, and uh Yeah, it's great.
We love it, they love it.

(12:33):
What more can we ask for?

SPEAKER_00 (12:36):
You you mentioned with the camel tracks, you
mentioned, you know, having thecamels carry the tents and and
stuff like that and setting upcamp.
The non-camel tracks where youit's just walking.
Do you have a team or somethingthat goes ahead?
So are these like camps that arejust set up for that night, or
these regular fixed camps, orwhat does that look like?

SPEAKER_02 (12:56):
So when we just go hiking, we normally stay in a
guest house.

SPEAKER_01 (13:00):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (13:01):
So we have like a three-day trip that we sell a
lot that leaves from Mezuka butinvolves a car ride for around
an hour to get further away.
And then the car just drops usin the middle of nowhere, and we
have to walk to the guest housewhile the car brings all our
luggage there.
So and then we'll arrive therefor lunch, have lunch.

(13:21):
It's right next to another sanddune field that's a bit smaller
and much less known.
So usually people just hang outthere for for the afternoon, for
sunset, and and you can chooseif you want to sleep inside or
if you want to sleep in thedunes, either like just on a
mattress or in a tent.
We always bring those along.
Uh, and depending ontemperatures, it could be much

(13:43):
nicer to actually sleep outside.
Um, and then the second daywe'll just do like a little
round hike from there, walk intosome like really cool hills with
great views over the whole area,and then come back again for
lunch.
And in the afternoon, you can,you know, go sandboarding or
something.
And then on the last day, wewalk for only for an hour and a

(14:03):
half, and then um we stay in asmall um family home for lunch,
and we can actually normallythey serve us burber pizza, it's
like a filled bread that's avery local specialty, and so we
can watch them bake that in thetraditional clay ovens.
And a lot of people comment howthat's their favorite part of

(14:23):
the whole trip, like getting intouch with the locals there,
watching the like interactingwith the women, and so yeah,
even if it's a short day ofhiking, people really, really
enjoy it as the end of theirtrip.

SPEAKER_00 (14:36):
Now, are the guests because you mentioned the guest
house where you stay a couplenights, and then the family home
where you do the lunch and theymake the you said Berber pizza,
right?
Mm-hmm.
I'm I'm hungry.
That sounds good.
I I love Moroccan food, by theway.
I've had a few tijines in mylife and some cookbooks and have
not been to Morocco to eat it.
So so when I hear you talk aboutthe food, I'm gonna get excited.

(14:57):
But anyway, my question was theguest house and this this area,
like is the guest house in a smsmall village, or is it just a
guest house in the middle of thedesert?
What is what does that looklike?
Help me understand what thatmight be like.

SPEAKER_02 (15:09):
So there is a we call them piste, like a gr like
it's just off-road.
But like an off-road that's abit I mean, after rains and
floods, it has to be creatednew, but you know, like there's
a path that you can follow.
So there's this piece that goesalong a river dry, usually dry
riverbed, and on one side is theriverbed, and the other side are

(15:30):
those sand dunes, and there'slike three or four guest houses
along that spread over sevenkilometers or something.
So when you're there, you don'tsee or hear anyone else.

SPEAKER_01 (15:40):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (15:42):
So it feels very, very in the middle of nowhere,
which is great.
There's also no light pollution,like it's the darkest place that
we we have for proper you know,star watching at night.

SPEAKER_00 (15:55):
Do the guests that go do you find a lot of guests
kind of live in the city, theymaybe want their kids to
experience that kind ofisolation, maybe they want to
experience it because they neverhave, or are these just
naturally people that just likequiet places?

SPEAKER_02 (16:10):
I think it's both.
But a lot of people actually asklike, is it possible to properly
see the night sky?
Like, we want to see the MilkyWay, we want to see the stars,
we want to see shooting stars.
And of course, that's notpossible all year round, like
the Milky Way you can see in thefall, but in spring it it comes
up at four in the morning, andpeople just usually don't get up

(16:32):
that early, or it gets lighthalf an hour later.
So that you know, forphotographing, it that's just
not a good time, so you shouldcome in October if that's your
goal.
But yeah, shooting stars, Ithink every time I'm there I see
them.
Like you just look up for halfan hour and you'll see three
shooting stars.
It's really amazing.

SPEAKER_00 (16:48):
And and you mentioned sleeping, uh I what I
heard you say was sleep on thesand dune.
So that creates an image in myhead because you know I grew up
hunting and camping and spendingtime outdoors, and it wasn't
unusual for me to just lay downa sleeping bag on the ground and
and sleep outside.
Is that kind of what it's like?
Do you have cots for them, orare they literally just laying

(17:10):
on the sand dune?
Or what is that what does thatlook like?

SPEAKER_02 (17:13):
So w we have those foam mattresses, like I don't
know, three, four centimetersthick, that you can just take
wherever you want.
And you wouldn't sleep on thedune because that's just not
flat enough, but like in betweenthe dunes, there's usually flat
areas that are great for that,and a little bit sheltered if it
gets a bit windy.
If like if it's too close tosummer, we recommend actually

(17:34):
sleeping inside the tent becausethat's the time of year where
you know like the creepycrawlies come out where snakes
and sort of things are.

SPEAKER_00 (17:44):
That's a question I was gonna ask you, because I
knew somebody was listening tothis, like, oh, wait about.
There's there's it's the desert.
There's gotta be things that Idon't want climbing in my
sleeping bag.

SPEAKER_02 (17:52):
But like November, December, January, February.
I've never seen one.
Like if you see them, it's gonnabe like September, early
October, maybe April.
But they're very, very rare.
Like in my seven years ofspending a lot of time in the
desert, I've seen I think threeor four snakes, and only once

(18:15):
man did I manage to get a photoof them.
Normally they just they're gonebefore you can properly focus on
them.
And scorpions, like I thinkwe've only seen two.
Like they also they it's veryrare and they just disappear so
quickly.

SPEAKER_00 (18:31):
Do your guests when given the opportunity, and again
I'm sure there's a variety ofthere's a variety of people, but
I'm curious.
When your guests given theopportunity to sleep on a foam
mattress in the desert, underthe stars, on the ground,
basically, like do most of yourguests see that as an exciting
opportunity, or is thatsomething only a few people
actually want to do?

SPEAKER_02 (18:52):
That's actually the majority does it.

SPEAKER_00 (18:54):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (18:55):
I mean, uh some say it's too cold, they prefer to
stay in the tent.
But but no, I would say I meanuh sleeping in the room is
something we do like after lunchfor a bit of a lie down, you
know.

SPEAKER_00 (19:09):
Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 (19:10):
A lot of them actually want to sleep outside.
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (19:14):
And I suspect a lot of them have never done it
before.
I'm just guessing.

SPEAKER_02 (19:18):
Yeah, I don't know.
I don't know what kind ofclients you.
I mean, I don't always I don'talways ask them that
specifically, but yeah, I wouldI would assume that.

SPEAKER_00 (19:27):
Yeah, I would I would think so.
Where pardon me, where do mostof your clients come from?
Are these m you mentionedspecifically German, obvious we
haven't really got to that partof your story yet, but you
mentioned Ger German and Englishwebsites, so I'm guessing most
of your clients probably comefrom German or English speaking
countries.
Europe, do you get a lot a lotof people from North America as

(19:48):
well, or where do they comefrom?

SPEAKER_02 (19:50):
So I think around 65% are German-speaking, so
Germany, Switzerland, andAustria.
And then the rest is pretty muchall over.
Like North America is not a bigbig focus for some reason.
I don't know.
There's uh there's the oddAmericans or Canadians.
Um, we've had people from NewZealand, from lots of small
countries in in Europe, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (20:12):
Okay.
I I heard you say the oddAmerican, and I thought, what
are you talking about?
We're not odd.
Maybe we're a little odd, but II do find Europeans are maybe a
little bit more uh likely to youknow go spend time in Africa.
It's just easier for one, andit's it's just kind of a maybe a
mindset thing around it.

SPEAKER_02 (20:29):
I think most Americans that come to Morocco
do a way more luxuriousexperience.
Like they hire a driver, they goto the nice hotels and you know
have a pool every night, and airconditioning, very important.
We cannot offer air conditioningin our little mobile camps.
So yeah, I mean the ones we didhave were very adventurous, I

(20:50):
have to say.
Very outdoorsy people.

SPEAKER_00 (20:52):
So yeah, yeah, that's uh it's very cool.
I guess I should.
I mean, you've kind of mentionedthe temperature, climate, and
stuff like that.
I guess I w and airconditioning.
I guess I need to ask, whatshould people know about the
weather?
Because like I know when you andI spoke last week, you said,
yeah, I'm gonna spend some timein Europe right now because it's

(21:12):
the summer and it's very hot.
So what should like, do you guysdo any business in the summer?
I guess would be one question.
And number two, uh when you'redoing business, what what should
people typically expect?
And we don't have to go month bymonth.
I just want to give people kindof an idea that might be
thinking, oh, there's no way Icould go to Morocco and do a
desert trek because it'd be sohot, but I don't think it's

(21:34):
always that hot, is it?

SPEAKER_02 (21:35):
No, it's not always that hot.
So we don't do desert hiking ortrekking in June, July, or
August.
That's just a straight up no,because that's like even at
night it can be like 35 Celsius.
Like I'm not sure what that's inFahrenheit, but like it's s it's
hot.

SPEAKER_00 (21:51):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (21:52):
So normally we say our season starts mid-September
and ends sort of mid-May for thefor the desert experiences.
In those like in the in thehotter parts of that, uh, we
actually caution people.
We we say you have to be okaywith heat because it can still

(22:13):
be hot, and we will not cancelbecause of that.
Like that's on you.
So please uh make sure that youhave some experience with that
before you you book earlySeptember hiking or something.

SPEAKER_00 (22:24):
Yeah, I think that's smart.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (22:25):
And we did have clients who said, Yeah, yeah,
we'll we'll we've hadtemperatures like that before in
different places and we're fine,and they were, so you know, like
it's that's okay.
But we also like we don't everpromise fixed routes, like we
always keep it flexible andadjustable to the weather.
So if it's hot, you will get upat like 5 30 in the morning and

(22:46):
finish your hike by 11.
And then you'll just rest in theshade for the rest of the day.
You know, like the when we'rejust nobody wants that.
Our crew will just stop workingfor us, I think, if we force
them to do that.
The camels are not happy tocarry heavy loads when it's that
hot.
So, you know, like we need that.
Sort of flexibility in terms ofweather.
The opposite would be winter,like from like early December to

(23:10):
mid-January.
Usually it's it is cold.
The nights can go down to almostfreezing.
So sleeping in a camp, you wouldhave to bring a really good
sleeping bag.
You will you will need to beokay sitting by the fire in the
evening feeling a bit coldbecause we don't have that much
wood, so there won't be a hugebonfire, you know.

SPEAKER_00 (23:30):
So but that just makes everybody get a little
closer, more connected.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (23:33):
I mean, there are people who are happy with that,
but I also tell everyone becausesome people would not enjoy that
so much, so they they need toknow that, you know.
And day temperatures at thattime of year are usually nice.
Like if you hike in a t-shirt,you'll be fine.
As soon as the sun's gone, youneed your down jacket,
basically.
You know, like it's uh thedifferences are just really like

(23:54):
noticeable in winter.
The best time is kind ofOctober, early November, and
February and March are usuallygood for our activities.

SPEAKER_00 (24:05):
Yeah, okay.
And let's talk a little bitabout the I don't know if you
called them non-trekkingactivities, but the other
activities, because there are alot of things to do and see in
Rocco.
So I'm curious, do a lot of thepeople that come if they come do
a three-day walk or a three orfour-day walk with you, are they
likely to book other stuff aswell?
I assume.

(24:25):
And and what like I'd love tochat a little bit about what
other things there are to do.

SPEAKER_02 (24:31):
So some some of them do.
A lot of them are veryindependent travelers, though.
So they rent a car and theydrive on their own and they'll
just show up in in Mezuka theday of the or the day before the
hiking starts, or in a differentplace if we're hiking in other
places.
But we do get people who wantlike a guided, or at least they

(24:53):
book a driver with us, and webook all the hotels for them and
guides along the way fordifferent experiences, and then
they might just have a one-daydesert experience with us where
we do just a day hike or apicnic in an in a small oasis
that's really beautiful.
Um, a family day in Mezuka, ifthey are a family where we'll
spend time with my friendscooking and baking and chatting

(25:14):
and working in the garden.
They they just shadow the dailylife basically.
So it really depends on whatthey're interested in and what
kind of group they are.
So lately we've had an increasein people with kids.
I think because like I wrote areally like thorough blog post
on if it's safe to take kidsinto the desert.

(25:37):
And um, like just in April Iwent hiking with a family with a
five-year-old boy, and and theysaid they they actually
researched so much and theyended up booking with us because
of this blog post, because theyfelt like I know what I'm
talking about and I'm takingthis serious seriously.
I'm not just saying, ah, yeah,yeah, no problem.

(25:57):
I'm saying that could be aproblem.
And that's how we deal withthat, you know?

SPEAKER_00 (26:02):
Let's let's let's discuss that.
You know, we can I mean we canalways say, you know, go read
the blog post or but let's touchon that real quick.
What was the gist of your advicewhen it comes to doing the
desert walks with kids?

SPEAKER_02 (26:14):
So, first of all, with like really small kids like
five-year-olds, we don't do athree-day program.
We'll we'll do day trips wherethey where we can be sure that a
car is always near.
We can we could leave quickly ifwe needed to.
The biggest issue could beoverheating, I think.
Like if it's if it gets warm,because kids uh like they don't
sweat as much as we do, theydon't drink as much as we do.

(26:36):
Like you constantly have to say,please take a sip of water,
please take another sip ofwater, please wear your turban,
you know, like don't let the sunget on your head.

SPEAKER_00 (26:47):
The heat moisture just leaves their body quickly.

SPEAKER_02 (26:50):
And they have all that energy, like they run up
and down and around, and theyget so excited, and it's just
crazy.
And it's so much fun.
I love it.
Like I love going on like thoseexperiences with kids.
Like they are so curious, theyask a million questions.
A lot of the time the parentsare apologetic for that, and I'm
like, no, I love it.
I love curious kids.
I don't want to have to likeactively entertain them.

(27:11):
I want them to be entertained,but I want them to lead that,
you know?
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (27:16):
So it is it is easier sometimes with kids.
I mean, you know, yeah, they'recurious and they they sometimes
will just ask questions, andsometimes you get a group of
adults, and they're you know,adults are fun, but are most so
when you look at the guidingaspect.
So you're out with a groupwalking through the desert.
Are most of the conversationsaround cultural stuff, natural

(27:39):
stuff, geology stuff?
What kind of conversations areyour guides having with your
guests?

SPEAKER_02 (27:45):
All of the above.

SPEAKER_00 (27:46):
I I kind of figured.
Alright.
So you but I also heard you sayyou don't see a lot of snakes
and you're not too worried aboutscorpions and stuff most of the
year.
Are there other little animals?
You did mention the antelope.
Are there other little animalsor a lot of interesting plants?
Or as far as the kind of thenatural side of it, what's the
what's what should people kindof expect or know about that?

SPEAKER_02 (28:07):
So that changes a bit with the weather conditions.
So we've had a really longdrought in the south of Morocco,
so there were not many plantsleft.
And no plants means also a lotof the times no animals, but the
last two winters have been veryrainy, like comparatively, not
compared to Germany orsomething, but you know, have
been plenty rainy.

(28:28):
And so everything turned green.
And uh like last year in springI went on a hike where there
were just mice, like desertmice, like different kinds, and
they had like highways.
You could see them, like youwould cross uh, I don't know, 20
centimeters wide road of micetracks running in and out of

(28:50):
their little house they havethere.
And just everywhere.
Like you wouldn't really seethem because they are active at
night.
So if you sleep outside, youwill you will s be able to see
them, but like during the dayyou mostly see their tracks.
Then there's lots of differentkinds of lizards, there's ants
of all different sizes, silverants that are really cool to
see.

(29:10):
There's birds, uh like beetles.
Sometimes we see the tracks ofsnakes and also of the desert
foxes that are also veryelusive.
But everybody would love to seea desert fox.
So every now and then we getlucky, but it's fairly rare
because there's now so manyquads and cars in in lots of
areas where they normally live,and so they just hide in more

(29:33):
remote places or only come outin like in the dark or
something.
So it's getting a a bit harder.
But yeah, every now and then weget lucky and get to see them.

SPEAKER_00 (29:44):
Let's touch on the culture part, and I think the
best way to do that is just I'mjust gonna ask you Berber
Adventure Tours.
For those of us that don't know,what is what does the word
Berber even mean?
And what should we know aboutthe Berber?
I'm just gonna say Berber.
What does Berber mean?
Tell us tell us more.

SPEAKER_02 (30:03):
Yeah, so actually it's it's starting to feel a
little bit inappropriate to callus that, because the the people
that we're talking about, theBerber people, call themselves
Amazir.
And that in their language, itmeans the free people.
And they are the originalinhabitants of Northern Africa.
They like they spread all over,they are very closely related to

(30:23):
like Egyptians and theLevantine.
And they've so they've beenthere way before the like i
Islamic invasion of NorthernAfrica, and they've been
suppressed ever since.
So their language was a purelyspoken one for centuries,
basically, and it's only, Ithink, become the official
language or one of the officiallanguages of Morocco in 2011.

(30:45):
And they are very proud people,like they are they love their
heritage and their culture, andso they prefer to be called
Amazir and not Burber, butnobody outside of Morocco.

SPEAKER_00 (30:59):
That's hard for marketing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 (31:02):
So yeah, maybe sooner or later we'll have to do
a rebrand and call ourselvesAmazir Adventure Tours, which
also has a nice sound to it, soI wouldn't mind.
But yeah, so it's the name ofthe people that are basically
the like the originalinhabitants of Morocco, and
there are distinct groups insidethat.
Like there's the Ryfian thatlive in the northern part, and

(31:23):
then there's I'm not sure if Ican pronounce the others, but
there's a group that's like themountains and the deserts, and
then there's a different group,I think closer to the coast, and
they have different dialects inthe language.
So I can really effectivelycommunicate with the ones close
by because otherwise half thewords will be different, and I'm
completely lost again.

SPEAKER_00 (31:41):
Yep, I get that.
And did you say, I can'tremember if you said, are they
traditionally migratory tribetype of people?

SPEAKER_02 (31:49):
Yes, they are there.
They had goats and camels andthey followed the rain and the
grass and you know all the greenstuff.
So I don't know, everybody'sheard of the Touarek, which are

(32:10):
not Moroccan.
They they are from an area thatis part Algerian and part Mali,
and I think maybe partMauritania or something.
And so when they cut thoseborders, they just separated
them from each other.
Like it's crazy.
Those borders are totallyartificial, you know.
And so a lot of Moroccans haverelatives in Algeria because

(32:31):
before that there was no border,you know, like they just lived
on the other side of the river.
So now they have a differentnationality.

SPEAKER_00 (32:38):
Yeah, and I was listening to a a podcast or
something, I saw something onYouTube they're talking about
the Sah Saharawi, it's a maybein southern Morocco, which is
kind of a it's a disputed area,yes, or something like that.
And it was kind of a fascinatingconversation.
I don't know if if if that'srelevant to what we're
discussing today, but it's uhit's it yeah, when you take a

(33:00):
place with people that weretraditionally nomadic and then
start creating borders anddeciding, well, who
traditionally you know settledin that area, that's pretty hard
when they're moving around alot, I would imagine.
So yeah.
I guess the question I I have toask, because I don't know the
answer to it, so I'm gonna ask,what is a Bedouin and how does
Bedouin compare to Berber?

(33:22):
Is it kind of the same thing?
I just I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 (33:25):
And I don't know if it's something that you're I
think the the term Bedouin isused for the nomads of the
Arabian Peninsula.
So what we would call a nomad inin Morocco, I think they would
call a Bedouin in like Jordanand Saudi Arabia, Oman.
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (33:42):
And that's far that's a long ways away.
I shouldn't have said that.
I just didn't know.

SPEAKER_02 (33:46):
No, but it's it's a question that I also had before.
So I you know I I actually readup on that.
But like the the Berberequivalent would just be the I
guess the Arabs you would callthem in on the Arabian
Peninsula, right?
Like that's their like blood,basically, and not their form of

(34:09):
living.

SPEAKER_00 (34:09):
Got it, got it.
No, absolutely.
So for somebody that's neverbeen there, we've we've talked
about well, I'm trying to thinkwhere to you know what I really
want to do is I really want toget into how the heck you got
there, because I know that it'sa fascinating story, and I I
want to make sure we have timeto dig into that.
So if you don't mind, let'sshift gears.
And I don't want to just go backto when you fell in love with

(34:32):
Morocco.
I want to go back to like yourchildhood, you know, traumas,
whatever's going on early on inlife, and and connect some dots
so our listeners really kind ofunderstand how you got there
instead of just, you know, whathappened when you went there the
first time, that type of thing.
So, how far back do you think weneed to go to kind of get an
idea of uh what happened?

SPEAKER_02 (34:52):
Yeah, I actually wrote a blog post about that on
my blog Not Scared of the Jetlagyears ago, about how I got to
become a solo traveler or likean independent traveler with
this adventure focus of placesnobody else goes to.
And I think it started when Iwas really small with a book my

(35:12):
father had about the wonders ofthe world, and it had the
original seven old world wondersin there, but also lots of other
places, and I always looked atthat and I I was dreaming of
going everywhere.
I was maybe five or seven orsomething.
And so that was always kind of adream.
And then during my well kind ofhigh school years, my mom got

(35:34):
like was sick.
She died when I was 17, so youknow, like those years we didn't
really travel much, there wasn'tany like space for that in our
life.
Yeah, yeah.
And then after I graduated, Itook a year to live in the US as
a au pair, living with a familyand really like diving into the
culture.
So I think that was kind of likethe first real formative travel

(35:58):
experience that that I'm nottraveling with like pecking and
unpecking, but actuallyimmersing myself in a culture
living somewhere for a longtime.
It's yeah, it's totallydifferent.
So then I went back to Germany,went to university to study
medicine medicine.

SPEAKER_00 (36:13):
If you d if you don't mind, let me ask you real
quick.
Um So, first of all, I guesswhat part of Germany was this
that you were growing up in?

SPEAKER_02 (36:21):
Were you just sort of the northern middle Hanover
and surroundings?
I grew up in Hildesheim, butnobody knows that.
Hanover, most people know ifthey watch football, uh soccer.

SPEAKER_00 (36:31):
Okay.
But you said Hildes Hildesheim,so that's a small you said
nobody knows it, so I assumewe're talking small town.

SPEAKER_02 (36:37):
Well, it's c yeah, it's it's a city, it's like a
hundred thousand people, Ithink, but it's like not on the
tourist track.
It's not big in terms ofAmerican cities, I guess.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's uh that's what I'mthinking.
It's not that it's not thatsmall, but it's just not it just
doesn't seem relevant to peopletraveling, you know, like Okay.

(36:59):
There's nothing It's not ontheir radar.
Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 (37:02):
Why did why did your dad why do you think your dad,
or maybe you know this, but whydo you think he had a book about
the wonders of the world and howdid it get into your hands?
Was was he encouraging that, doyou think?
I know it was a long time ago.
Or it was a while ago.
I shouldn't say it was a longtime ago.
It was a few years ago.

SPEAKER_02 (37:16):
He he is like a huge fan of ancient Egypt.
So that that was always likegoing to the Egyptian museum and
stuff like that.
And I think, you know, becausethey are one of the original
World Wonders, the pyramids,that book was there.

SPEAKER_00 (37:32):
Probably the the cover of the book had a pyramid
on it, I'm assuming.

SPEAKER_02 (37:35):
That's all but yeah.
I guess so.
And so yeah, that's even thoughlike when I was little, we never
traveled.
Like ne we left Germany, butnever more than the neighboring
country.
Like we went to Denmark or toAustria or to I don't know, the
Netherlands or something.
But like we I had never flownuntil I got on that plane to go
to the US as an opair.

SPEAKER_00 (37:55):
Oh, okay.
And and when you say we, we'retalking about, you know, your
mom, dad, and siblings.
Do you have some siblings?

SPEAKER_02 (38:02):
I have one brother.
Yeah, one brother.
Who who travels uh he's twoyears younger and he travels
with his motor home with hiswife and dog just in Europe?
Like they just they used to flyto the Caribbean or this you
know, mel melodives orsomething.
But like they are not they arenot doing the type of traveling
that I do.
They're like the opposite.

(38:23):
So yeah, I don't know how thathappens.

SPEAKER_00 (38:26):
Did do you happen to know if your if your parents
traveled much before they had afamily?
Was that or was that somethingbecause it sounds like your dad
might have kind of beeninterested in that stuff.
Do you know if he'd traveled?

SPEAKER_02 (38:38):
Well, he he was sent to the US as a child to live
with his grandma for a year whenhe was like eight or nine.
And then he traveled to likeItaly once to because his sister
married an Italian guy and theyvisited the family there, but
not that much.
They were also still prettyyoung when I was born, so that
happens.

SPEAKER_00 (38:59):
I can relate.
Did if I if I had a time machineand I was able to go back and
and have a conversation with 12or 13-year-old Eva, and I said,
Eva, what do you want to do whenyou grow up?
Do you remember, do you have anyidea what you would have said?

SPEAKER_02 (39:14):
I was I always wanted to be a doctor.
Well, actually, not really.
I always wanted to studymedicine.

SPEAKER_00 (39:19):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (39:20):
I didn't never want to study.

SPEAKER_00 (39:22):
Did that have anything to do with your mom's
sickness?

SPEAKER_02 (39:24):
I don't I'm not sure, but I remember even before
she got sick that, you know, wefound we found a bird that had
been slit in half by a cable,like an electricity cable, on
the field or something.
And it was lying there.
And we would get sticks and pullall the organs out.
You know, like I was interestedin that stuff when I was like

(39:45):
way young.

SPEAKER_00 (39:46):
I thought you I thought you were gonna say you
tried to save it.

SPEAKER_02 (39:49):
No, no, no, it was well dead.
Like it was literally cut inhalf in its belly.

SPEAKER_00 (39:53):
But like So you figured, well, we might as well
do some scientific study here.

SPEAKER_02 (39:59):
Super interesting.
So I've always been so curiousabout stuff like that.
So I studied medicine because Iwas curious about how the body
works, how I work.
Not because I wanted to be adoctor to help people.
That was just like a stupidnecessity kind of coming with
that, you know?
But in the beginning, I thoughtI would work in a lab and do
science research, whatever.
Um, but then once I've had a fewlike internships with that, I

(40:22):
that was out of the question.

SPEAKER_00 (40:23):
Uh well, yeah, let's let's let's because because I
know you were just starting totalk about uh going to school
and I kind of we I regressed alittle bit.
So let's pick up.
So in high school, you're intobiology, it sounds like uh
anatomy, dissecting things, andyou went to school for what was
your what was your major or whatwas it?

SPEAKER_02 (40:43):
We don't have we don't have that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 (40:45):
Like high school high school is high school, like
every like we don't really haveafter maybe after high school,
yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (40:51):
Straight to med school.
Like Germany doesn't have likeanything in between.
If you qualify, if you like ifyour grades are good enough, you
can go straight to med school.
So I did the year in the US andthen went straight to med
school.
And yeah, so you know, studiedand like every year I just
eliminated more specialties thatI didn't want to do.
You know, like in the beginningI was fairly open, and then I

(41:11):
was like, no, I'm not I'm notgonna do that.
No, that's crazy.
Like those people are weird, orthis is boring, or you know, and
and then we were like last thelast year in Germany is like a
practical year.
You have to do four months eachin three different specialties.
You have to do some surgical,uh, like a surgical rotation,
you have to do an internalmedicine thing, and you can

(41:33):
choose one.
And so we were all, my friendsand I were all discussing like
what are you gonna do for yourchosen rotation?
And I was, I don't know, maybeanesthesia or pediatrics, I
don't know, I don't know.
And three of them said, You'recrazy, you need to do radiology.
I'm like, what?
Why?
And they're like, because everytime they put an x-ray or

(41:53):
something in front of us, youlook at it and you're like, oh,
it's right there.
And we still don't see it.
You have talent.
And I was like, okay, neverthought about it this way, but
I've actually been secretlytraining for that since I was
three.
My grandma had this televisionprogram magazine that had the
little find the mouse in arandom, like drawn picture.

SPEAKER_00 (42:16):
Yeah, uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 (42:17):
Yeah, I was always fastest with that.
So I that sounds familiar.
I was meant to become aradiologist.
And so I finished med school andthen went to Australia for a
year.
No, actually, let's go, let'smove one back because you ask
about how I got to travel thatthe way I travel.
For med school, we had to dointernships in our um school

(42:38):
summer breaks.
And a friend and I actually wentto do one on Zanzibar.
It's an island off the coast ofTanzania.
Very beautiful.
I had never heard of it, but shewas set on going there for her
honeymoon, and this was a greatway to go and check it out.
So um random ways found ussomebody who has a relative who

(43:01):
lives there who got us in touchwith the relevant people, and we
went for five weeks in the insummer, like in our third year
of med school or something.
And uh again, we lived in anapartment in a house where there
were other locals living there.
We couldn't really communicatemuch, but the the girl living
downstairs was pregnant, they dohave polygamy, so her husband

(43:23):
had two other wives in otherplaces, and she would bring us
like little portions of food shecooked for us to try, and we
bought her some fresh veggiesbecause she always complained
that she doesn't have the moneyfor that.
And you know, like we had a realcultural exchange, like a real
connection with locals, and likeworking in the hospital was
amazing just to see howdifferent things can be.
Yeah, and I think like a lot ofpeople there are super poor,

(43:49):
like it's r it was really hardcoming back from that.
Like going there, no issue atall.
But coming home was a properculture shock because everybody
here has so much, even and theystill complain about everything.
And so that really, really uhinfluenced uh the following
years for me.

SPEAKER_00 (44:06):
Let me ask you this because you mentioned that
pretty much all the studentsneeded to go somewhere and do
something like that.
Uh did you call it an internshipor when you went to Zan?
Okay.
Did they I guess the question isdid the typical student choose a
place like Zanzibar or were youone of the crazy ones?

SPEAKER_02 (44:26):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Now most people stay in the samecity.

SPEAKER_00 (44:29):
Like they go back where they l where they're from
or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 (44:33):
Yeah, like that, or in the c in the city they're
studying because they're alreadypaying for rent there, or you
know, like they might go toFrance or Italy.
Yeah, but uh but going somewherelike that, I think in our year
we were the only ones who didsomething like that.

SPEAKER_00 (44:49):
Do you think that you learned a lot about
medicine?
Like was it if it if you justlook at the Okay, for the use of
our time, I learned more aboutmedicine being in Zanzibar, or
was it a the same as what youwould learn?
About medicine somewhere else.
But obviously you learn moreabout life and culture and
yourself, I think.

SPEAKER_02 (45:09):
No, actually both.
We did they they let us do somuch more than they would have
let us do in Germany in aninternship.
Like, you know, I learnedskills.
I learned things that like evenfive years into my radiology
specialization, the the doctorswouldn't let us do.
And I was always like, but Iknow how to do that.

(45:31):
Like I've done that even withoutimaging.
Like I know how to do that.
I know that probably better thanyou because you know I've done
that blind.

SPEAKER_00 (45:37):
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (45:40):
So yeah, no, I mean I I learned about both.
But I think that was uh again avery, very like formative
experience.
And I kept saying after that,like, I wish I could travel in a
way that I could just moveacross the world and staying
everywhere for three to sixmonths.
Because I don't want to just runaround and see things.

(46:01):
I want to meet locals, I want tolive there, I want to have that
experience.
But that doesn't work if youdon't have money lying around or
you know, like growing on trees.

SPEAKER_00 (46:11):
It's it's hard, trust me.
I've been doing it for four anda half years.
It's really hard.

SPEAKER_02 (46:15):
Yeah, and I mean back then remotely, yeah, that's
a lot of things.
I mean, we're talking like 20years ago.
And so yeah, that that kind ofthat was a bit hard, but I still
planned my travels.
Like, for example, years later,I went to Jordan, small country,
Highland Sea, and I stayed threeweeks.

(46:36):
And everybody who had been toJordan was like, Are you crazy?
The country is tiny.
What do you want to do there forthree weeks?
Well, I went three weeks and Icould go back for three months
and I still wouldn't be finishedwith it.
Right?
Like there's so much to do.
And I don't know.
It I I don't get people who likego to Europe for two weeks and

(46:57):
see like see three count uh fivecountries.
And you know, like that's crazyto me.
Like, why would you want to dothat?
You don't even get a properimpression of any of them.

SPEAKER_00 (47:07):
Yeah, well, you and I are not necessarily the
typical person out there.

SPEAKER_02 (47:11):
I know.

SPEAKER_00 (47:12):
But but oh but also like I gotta give them credit.
Like, okay, well, if they onlyhave two weeks' vacation and
that's the life they've chosen,at least they're gonna go
somewhere and see something.

SPEAKER_02 (47:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, definitely.
If if as long as they're leavingthe country, they're already
good.
But yeah, it's just not mystyle, I guess.
Yep, yep.
So I also don't want to designthat those type of trips for
other people, right?
Like it all comes back to Ipeople always say you shouldn't
your client shouldn't be you.
You you shouldn't design foryourself.

(47:42):
But actually, I think it's thebest I can do because that's
what I know.
Like I cannot I cannot sellluxury trips with fancy
restaurants and whatever becauseI don't stay in those places, I
don't eat in those places.
Like that's like that wouldtotally be not be authentic,
right?

SPEAKER_00 (48:00):
Like Eva, it would be like me doing a finance
podcast or medicine.
Yeah, people like, oh you know,Jason, there's there's a lot of
other genres that you can dopodcasting in that might be
better.
And I'm like, yeah, no.
No, thank you.
So yeah, all right.
So how did you so how did youfigure it out?

(48:20):
What was your what was your ahamoment to help you do that type
of lifestyle, or did you justhave to totally change gears?

SPEAKER_02 (48:27):
Well, it kind of just happens.
I mean, it's m it's mostly likethat, right?
You you don't really plan forthings like that.
So I the f my f uh well, whereshould we go go next?
So in 2011, I went to Egypt withmy parents.
I actually invited my father ona tri like 12-day trip to Egypt.
Nice.
And so we saw the pyramids.
My stepmom mother came alongtoo.

(48:48):
We saw the pyramids, we saw allthe temples, and then we went to
the desert because I said, Idon't want to just do culture, I
want some nature too.
So we stayed overnight in anoasis in the middle of nowhere,
but in a hotel.
And when we were there, we welearned that you could also like
stay in a tent outside in thedesert, but we didn't have time,
like we needed to leave the nextday, right?
So I thought that's something Ineed to figure out, like that's

(49:09):
what I want to do.
So when I came back, I startedsearching for desert trips, like
desert mostly I wanted somethingwith camels, like I wanted to
ride a camel across the desertand couldn't find that.
But what I did find was uh aGerman agency that offers desert
hiking, and you can book ariding camel.
So I thought, oh, that thatactually sounds good.
It took four years for that tohappen because I could never

(49:31):
make the dates work with mywork, with my job.
But in 2015, I actually went toMorocco on like with that
company, but they outsourced itto a local agency, which was
great.
We had a great Moroccan guideand four women in the group.
Um like tourism was very l slowat that time, so groups wouldn't

(49:52):
fill up so much.
And we hiked nine days throughthe desert.
And I like on the flight home, Iwas thinking thinking this was
the best holiday I've ever had.
I've never been so relaxed.
Just because there was no phone,there was no noise, like you
could just meditate for the sixhours you were walking and just

(50:13):
you know, be with yourself orspend it talking.
I mean, you know, you had anoption.

SPEAKER_00 (50:19):
Do you know how painful that sounds to some
people?
Not the people listening to thisshow.

SPEAKER_02 (50:24):
I loved it.

SPEAKER_00 (50:25):
And be with yourself?
Oh my gosh, no cell phone.

SPEAKER_02 (50:30):
No, it was amazing.

SPEAKER_00 (50:32):
I do want to ask you, I do want to ask you this
though.
Was it the fact that it was inMorocco was that just kind of
well, that's just where they'redoing this trip?
Yeah, yeah.
Or like if it had been ridecamels in Tunisia or Algeria or
Egypt or Jordan or somethinglike that, would would you have
cared?
I mean, it was you so in a senseyou kinda ended up in Morocco on

(50:53):
accident because that's justwhere they did it.

SPEAKER_02 (50:56):
Exactly.
And then the year after I wentwith the same company on a
hiking trip in the desert inOman in the empty quarter.

SPEAKER_01 (51:05):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (51:06):
That was much harder.
It was hotter, the desert ismore boring, it it's just sand.

unknown (51:11):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (51:11):
And yeah, that like didn't enjoy that so much.
Uh still met great people onthat trip.
So, you know, and Oman is anamazing country.
Uh, I went back there a fewyears later with a friend.
Um, and then the year afterthat, I was always in November,
that was always my time to togo.
I went to Jordan and went likespent five days in the in the
Wadiram desert doing hiking andcamel riding and you know, like

(51:35):
climbing on mountains and stuff.
And during that year, that whenI went in Oman, I kind of had
like a little midlife crisis orquarter life crisis or something
in between that.
And I I thought I've gottachange my life.
Like I don't wanna go back tothe top by that time I wasn't in
the hospital anymore.
When I finished myspecialization, I switched jobs
and went to work for a bigmedical equipment company to

(51:58):
work as a healthcare consultinginternationally.
So I tr I started traveling alot for work, which was great,
but also exhausting.
And it was always like a mix ofburnout during the projects and
then kind of bore out in betweenbecause when you know sometimes
there were gaps that were a bitlonger than necessary for
relaxation, and then it just gota bit boring.

(52:18):
So that was also clear that'snot gonna be my forever thing.
But yeah, so I was in Oman and Ifigured I've gotta change
things.
Like I don't want to go back tothis corporate life forever.
Like I still have way too manyyears of work in front of me.
So I I came back home and Ifigured I I need to figure out
what I can do and what I want todo and where.
And so the first step was Istarted a travel blog.

(52:39):
And over the next years kind offigure out that I'm not really
that ambitious to really makemoney with that.
Like, and also like I don't Ialways feel like the ones that
really made money are the onesthat just sold whatever the
mainstream wants.
And that's just not me.
Again, you know, like that's notwhat I think.

SPEAKER_00 (52:57):
Yeah, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 (52:58):
I cannot do that.
So I kind of figured thatwouldn't be very successful, but
I kept it going just for funbecause it gave me something to
do.
And and also I started savingmoney.
Like I the year before I hadbasically spent everything I
made.
And I made good money in thatconsulting job, right?
But I just went on shoppingspree and bought all the nice
fancy cameras and whateverequipment.

SPEAKER_00 (53:21):
Was that do you think do you think that's
because you were bored?
Sometimes when people are boredand they're not doing what they
really want to do, they kind ofdistract themselves with other
stuff.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm sure.

SPEAKER_02 (53:30):
And also, I mean there was always a reason to
have another dress, somewedding, or like you know, I but
totally unnecessary.
So I I put that on a like hardstop.
I just stopped spending money.
For one year, I own like Ididn't stop spending on food,
like I still went out for dinnerand stuff and lunch every day
and whatever.
But I didn't go shopping forclothes, I didn't go shopping

(53:53):
for any electronics, I didn'tbuy DVDs, which was still a
thing back then.

SPEAKER_00 (53:58):
I just someone listened to this says, What is
she talking about?
DVDs.

SPEAKER_02 (54:01):
Yeah, maybe I don't know the demographics, but but
yeah, and then so and then Iwent to Jordan, kind of thinking
that maybe when I come back Iwill quit because I felt like
maybe now I have enough money togo traveling for two years and
figure out what I'm gonna donext.
But also like at that duringthat time, my boss wasn't really
great.

(54:21):
Like my former boss had left andhis boss became my boss because
they couldn't find anything toreplace him for a while, and it
was just a very unlike unhappysituation in a way.
But I came back from Jordan andmy boss had changed.
Like there was a guy who soundedlike he really knew what we
wanted to do, and you know, likeand I figured, okay, maybe it's

(54:42):
gonna be fun again.
Maybe he can find enough work ininteresting places to make this
actually worth it.
So I stayed and I saved and umand went to Morocco again and at
the end of 2018 with anAustralian lady that I had met
through another travel podcast,actually.
And she had set up a deserthiking trip originally.

(55:04):
I think she planned to go forfour weeks, and I said, Oh, I
might join you for two of those.
I don't think I want to do fourweeks, but you know, two weeks I
can do.
And so we had one phone call amonth before the trip actually
happened to figure out if we getalong in along enough to m to
make this work, and it soundedokay.
We didn't become friends, shewas really weird.
But she traveled really, I don'tcare so much, but like she

(55:27):
traveled with a huge hard shellsuitcase.

SPEAKER_00 (55:32):
For a four-week for a four-week hiking trip?

SPEAKER_02 (55:35):
Well, on a camel.
Like the guy the the camel crewwas so upset because it took
half an hour longer to pack thecamels every day just because
that suitcase couldn't be fixedin a way that it wouldn't slide
off.
Like and they had told herbefore to not do that, and she
still showed up with it becauseshe wanted to take photos for
the guy who sold her thatsuitcase as a promotion or

(55:56):
whatever.
Well, anyway, so yeah, that youknow I but again, not my type of
person, not my type of travel.
But yeah, the trip was great,and my now partner Hassan was
our guide on the trip andtranslator and whatever.
So that's how we met.
And so I went home after fourweeks in Morocco, 16 days of
those hiking through the Sahara,the last five days alone because

(56:17):
she had to go back to Marrakeshearly.
And then Wait, wait, were youalone or well with the with with
Hassan and our camelman Omar?
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
And so because we the plan wasto hike from Zagora to Mezuga,
and she like they had to toldher the guy she bought the trip
with had told her no problem,you can do that in 10 to 12
days, no problem.

(56:37):
And I looked at the map and Iwas like, never.
Like, not happening.
Like, we're not hiking thatmuch.
And of course we didn't.
So she had to be picked up onday 11 because she had to return
to Marrakesh.
And I was like, but I I wouldactually I wouldn't mind going
all the way to Mezuka.
I don't have any plans.
So I renegotiated with him thefor the last few days and kept
walking.
And then after that trip, I wenthome and my boss said, You need

(57:01):
to come into my office and toldme that they're restructuring
the whole department andeverything that I thought would
be was so fun and I w I loveddoing, wouldn't be a priority
anymore.
And so he he said, I need toreally think what I want to do
in the future, like where I canput myself in the department.
And so that was just beforeChristmas.

(57:21):
So after New Year's, like we allhad a long break over Christmas
and New Year's, I came back andI just handed him my
resignation.
And he I think he he was kind ofsurprised, but not so much.
Like he just didn't know whatwhat I would do, but you know, I
Let me let me ask you.
He didn't really see it coming,but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (57:39):
If was there anything that hap I'm gonna go
there.
Was there anything that happenedon that last trip in Morocco
that kind of just cemented thedeal, like otherwise you may not
have quit your job?
Because sometimes it's like,wow, I think I found myself.
I think I found my place orwhere I really want to be.
And then you go back home andyour boss throws your curveball

(58:00):
and you're like, this is meantto be.
I was already thinking that.

SPEAKER_02 (58:05):
I mean, it's it for those two years that I had been
saving, I had also been sayingto all my friends, I'm just
waiting for the sign of theuniverse to tell me now is the
time to quit, right?
And I've I had been kind of justwaiting, waiting, waiting.
But it wasn't the trip inMorocco, it was the talk with my
boss that actually said now isthe time to quit, because I

(58:25):
don't want to do this thestrategic talks with the C-suite
in, you know, like that's again,just not me.

SPEAKER_00 (58:32):
Um we're getting a good feel for your personality
in this conversation.
I love it.
It's so cool.

SPEAKER_02 (58:37):
I I need to I need to enjoy my work.
If I spend eight hours or tenhours a day doing it, I need to
have some fun doing it.
You know, like people don'tunderstand that sometimes, uh
neither in the hospital world,not in corporate business, but
I'm just not doing that.
Like I'm not made to suffer.
So yeah, I quit and sold as muchof my things as I could because
I figured I would go travel,depending on how much I would

(58:59):
spend, it would the money wouldlast for, I don't know, two to
five years.
You know, like I just didn'thave a clue how how much I would
spend, like what type ofexperiences I wanted to do.
And so I've you know, I thought,oh, where am I gonna start?
And I was like, oh maybe I'lljust go back to Mazuga where I
ended the last trip and sitdown.

SPEAKER_00 (59:17):
I know this guy there.

SPEAKER_02 (59:19):
I I just I'll just sit down in the desert where
it's quiet and figure out what Iwanna do, where I wanna go next,
what I'll do with my money, andleave when it starts getting too
hot.
So I I c I left Germany in thefirst week of March in 2019.
And I figured I'd have like fiveweeks in Morocco before I wanna

(59:41):
go somewhere else because it'sstarting to get too hot.
And so yeah, I went back thereand we were kinda like, of
course, uh you know, Hassan likefound me an apartment and stuff,
um, because that's kinda hard toorganize when you're not there.
Yeah, yeah.
And also I I wasn't sure if it'spossible to just arrive and rent
something right away, but itactually is.
It's like it's so different.

(01:00:01):
And yeah, so I we startedtalking about like how much we
enjoyed that hiking trip, and Iwas like, I want to do that
again.
Like, I need to find people whogo go with me because it was
just so expensive.
And so I started putting it outon like in some Facebook groups
and in my circle of friends andrelatives and whatever, and got
a got quite a bit of interest.
But of course, you know, likepeople on Facebook always say,

(01:00:23):
Oh yeah, I'm interested, andthen when it's happening, they
don't show up.
But we I actually had one of mybest friends and her colleague
that said they will definitelycome, so I let them pick the
date because they are teachersand they needed this to happen
in the school holidays.
And then another woman from theUK wanted to come along who knew
me through the other travelpodcast, and she ended up

(01:00:44):
canceling a week or 10 daysbefore because her boss took
back her holiday request, whichin Germany you are not allowed
to, but in the UK apparently youcan because like they had some
too many people on sick leave orsomething and she couldn't go.
So in the end, we went with myfriend and her colleague on a
five, like it was a five-dayhike, but I actually met them in
Marrakesh.

(01:01:04):
We had spent two days onMarrakesh and then drove down
into the desert with one stop onthe way to see some more sights
and have a bit of a relaxed timebecause it is a long drive.
And then we hiked for five days.
And then they stayed one morenight in Mezuga and left the
next morning, I think.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:20):
Sensing as you tell this, I'm picking up on the oh
ding ding ding, idea, idea, ideathat maybe I can just promote
trips and extend my travels, orwhat did that come up?

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:33):
Yeah, so I mean the summer I spent traveling.
I went to Italy and the Balkansand Indonesia and Australia and
then back to Morocco for thistrip.
And and they they actually saidafter the hike, like, you've got
to turn this into a business.
This was amazing.
Like, this was the best holidayever.
Like what I said after mine,right?
Like they had the exact samereaction.
And and my partner was alwayslike, Yeah, no problem, just put

(01:01:55):
it again on Facebook.
And I'm like, people don't dothat though, like they don't
trust that.
We need a website, we need tolike register the business, like
this has to be properly set upfor that to work.
And so I started building awebsite and you know, like
putting all that together, likesteep learning curve.
Um, but I did all that myself.
And then I went to Oman againwith my friend that following

(01:02:16):
January in 2020, and then ofcourse the pandemic happened, so
like tourism was on hold, so Ididn't even get to travel
anymore.
Like, we were just stuck in inMazooka and Greater Morocco for
quite a while because they keptclosing the borders.
And and by the time that calmeddown, we actually had our first
clients that found us on Google,or one of them actually found me

(01:02:38):
in a Facebook group, which wasfun.
But yeah, they started findingus when they Googled for hiking
and or whatever stuff in Mezuga,and we got the first good
reviews, and then it just slowlygrew.
I mean, the first two yearsthere wasn't much, but I still
had enough savings, and andafter that we made enough to
live off.
Last year we actually had moneyleft over, which was amazing.

(01:03:01):
So I'm slowly refilling my bankaccount again.
But yeah, I mean it's I lastsummer I to I took on a summer
project and actually rederedesigned our whole website and
made it a bit smoother.
And yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:17):
Do you ever do you ever look back at the medical
consulting or radiology typestuff and regret leaving that?

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:26):
No, never.
Every time I talk to somebody Iused to work with, everything
they say makes me so happy Ileft.
I mean half of them are ththinking about quitting if they
haven't quit yet.
Like most of them changed jobstoo, because it was just like
it's it's just not a life that'ssustainable in the long term, I
think.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:44):
Yeah.
I was gonna say, I think thereis something about the type of
person that likes to travel andgo explore.
I I wonder sometimes if thatdesire helps them quit miserable
jobs.
Because I think so.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:57):
We are not afraid of change.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:59):
Exactly.
And it's like if you live insome city that you're not that
happy, and you've got a job thatyou're not that happy, and
you've got a relationship thatyou're not that happy.
You're like, well, I might aswell just keep my job because
I'm not that you know, whatever.
But if you're the type that Iwas always like, ooh, I want to
go see this, I want to go dothat, and my job's getting in

(01:04:21):
the way, so it's much easier tosay, well, screw that, I'll
figure something out.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:25):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:25):
I don't know if that's I've been through that.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:28):
I mean, I'm always up for a challenge and I I like
change.
Like I I'm always the first totry try things.
Like even in my work in my workenvironment before, if there was
a new software, I wouldvolunteer to test it out before
it was rolled out or you know,stuff like that.
Like everybody else was like,Are you crazy?
That's even more work.
I'm like, yeah, but that's thefun work.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:49):
Or even even like even I I'm sensing from you
probably learning how to build awebsite, learning how to do some
of that stuff.
It's it's not necessarilytourism.
Some tour operators want to havenothing to do with building a
website, but you know, there'sothers that are if you're
curious enough to want to gotravel the world, you might
want, oh, I mean, hey, you know,it's it's slow season or

(01:05:10):
whatever, we're not getting alot of bookings right now, but I
can build a website, that'd becool.
That'd be fun.
I I'm I'm on the same same onthe same page there.
I do want to ask you one thingabout, you know, you talked
about the wonders of the worldbook when you were young that
probably had a pyramid on thefront of it.
Probably had a lot of pagesinside with photos of things in

(01:05:31):
the desert.
Jordan, you know, wadi roundplaces like that.
Have you figured out why you'reso tied to the desert?
Because I've heard you sayseveral times, like, I just like
being in the desert.
I want to go sleep in a tent inthe desert.
There's a lot of beautifulplaces.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:47):
I think I mean every time I'm I'm at a beach, I'm
like, why why did I end up inthe desert?
Like, why am I not living here?
You know, like there I do lovethe ocean.
But it's just I think in a way,it's the one place that really
calms me down and quiet me.
You know, like it there it's abit like a sensory depression

(01:06:11):
tank or so, deprivation tank orwhatever, you know.
Uh-huh.
It's kind of like, I mean,there's stuff to see and
whatever, it's really beautiful,but it's everything there is
like the small things, you know,like it's it's you can look at
the animals, you can s you yousee patterns in the sand after
the wind or whatever.
Like it's and in a lot of placesyou have like really wide

(01:06:34):
horizons, like you can see veryfar, you're not like crowded in
or whatever.
And I think like it's just thecombination of all of those
things that I just I don't know.
I but even like in even in backin high school, I I kept saying,
I'm born in the wrong place,like Germany is too cold for me.
I wish I was born in a hotterplace.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:53):
So, you know, like I mean North Africa sounds like a
good spot.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:58):
At least for like 10 months of the year.
Like I I do go away for July andAugust because it's just that's
Just too much.
But even the locals just don'tdo anything in those months.
Like they just spend the wholeday basically lying around and
live at night just because it'sjust unbearably hot.
Like it's not something you canbe born being okay with or enjoy

(01:07:21):
or get used to, I think.
Everybody suffers.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:25):
Right.
Yeah, yeah.
No, I I I get it.
And I'd lived in Arizona.
I lived in Phoenix, Arizona,which is in the middle of the
desert.
But yeah, it's also a city.
So there's it's not a lot ofquiet and solitude, which you
can get if you go outside thecity, but the desert is an
interesting place.
We've discussed a bunch, a bunchof things.
Um you've got a fascinatingstory, and I know we missed some

(01:07:45):
spots.
We either come back, but I'mcurious right now, like Eva,
what do you wish that I wouldhave asked you, or what do you
feel like uh we we missed thatwe might want to uh touch on
before we wrap up?

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:56):
I don't know.
I think we covered probablypretty much everything.
I mean, maybe I mean it maybe Imade it sound too easy.
Like working in Morocco isreally hard.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:06):
Yeah, let's touch let's touch on that because you
and I had a brief conversationabout that.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:11):
It's not the easy peasy dream job because like
Moroccan people tick sodifferently, like especially as
a German.
We are very punctual, we arevery reliable.
Like if we say yes, okay, youknow, that's like having a
contract.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:23):
I think I think it might be hard for Germans to
work in any part of the world.
Just my take on it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:28):
Maybe, maybe, but there are places where it's a
lot easier.
Like I've I mean I worked in alot of places, and like Sweden
and the Netherlands were reallyeasy with that kind of thing.
You know, like but yeah, so inMorocco that's really hard.
Like we like like I said, we tryto work with as many locals as
possible to you know spread thespread the money around a bit
because I don't I'm not doingthis to be rich, but you know,

(01:08:50):
we are trying to support thecommunity as widely as we can.
But people are unreliable.
Like you ask for a price for adriver for six days, they give
you price, and then when youwant to pay, all of a sudden it
now got more expensive.
And you're like, yeah, well, youshould have said that before,
you know, like that's really notokay going back on on that
offer.
Or you know, they just show uplate or whatever.

(01:09:13):
Like it's just sometimes it's abit unreliable.
So that that's a bit hard.
And I mean living there is hardto like we we need to get
something fixed, and the thehandy guys, you know, like they
they're always like, Oh yeah,yeah, we'll we'll come tomorrow,
we'll come tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:28):
And they keep saying that for a week, and like for a
week we don't have water in thekitchen, and you know, like Do
you do you find yourself havingto remind yourself you're like
yes, this is frustrating, and ina sense it's also part of what I
love about the place.
Well no, I do not love thatabout a place.
You don't love that at all.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:47):
But I did get used to other things, like f if I
want to go into the next sort ofbigger town for shopping, I'll
have to take a taxi.
We don't have a car.
Like I I I'm not I don't have acar.
So I take the shared taxi andthat leaves when it's full.
So they need six people.

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:05):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:05):
So if it if it's market day, the taxis will all
be full.
There will be a line of 20people waiting, right?
But on other days, sometimes youwill wait for an hour.
And that drove me crazy in thebeginning, like not knowing when
I'll go and well when I'll beback and when I can have lunch,
and you know, like I get hangry.
So now it's just like I'll tellthem I want to go, I leave my
money, then I'll sit in the cafeand the c the taxi will come by

(01:10:28):
and honk, and I will just haveto pay my coffee really quickly
and get in, you know, and then Inow know where to find play like
food in Risani as well in thetown to you know have lunch
there if it's you know too lateto go back and cook at home.
And those kind of things I gotreally relaxed around, and it's
kinda hard sometimes, at leastfor a two day f for a day or

(01:10:49):
two, to come back to Germanywhere everything other than the
German Deutsche Bahn is on time,they are never, but like
everything else is running ontime.
And yeah, Eva, let me ask let meask you this.
I close and open the drawers andadapt very fa very quickly these
days.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:06):
Let me ask you this.
If I was sitting here having aconversation with Hassan, your
partner right now, and I said,What's it like uh dealing with a
German woman?
What's he gonna say?
From just like from his culturalperspective, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:18):
I'm sure he'll see good and bad parts in it.
Like he knows.
Like, I'm very good atorganizing things.
You know, if he asks me how muchwill this cost, I will tell him
and it will not change.
I I remind him of things thatare important, you know.
At the same time, of course, theexact same things drive him
crazy, but Yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah.

(01:11:39):
Yeah, it's in differentsituations, but yeah, good
question.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:43):
Well, maybe we'll have to have have him come and
join me for a conversation aswell.
We can hear the complete otherside of it.
It's been fascinating.
I guess before we wrap up, Iwill ask you do you have uh
anything you're super excitedabout on the horizon?
Any new routes you're gonnayou're working on?
Or or I guess I even want to askyou if you considered you know
organizing trips to other placesin North Africa, the Middle

(01:12:06):
East, because it seems likeyou're pretty interested in
those places.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:10):
So I would be interested, but I think it's not
really feasible, like having abusiness or have like doing that
cross-country, like fromMorocco.
I'm not sure how that like thatwould be a nightmare tax-wise
and all those kind of things.
Like we are registered inMorocco, like all our business
happens there, the money staysthere, you know.
Like and yeah, in a way, butlike I'm not sure if you could

(01:12:35):
just start running trips inTunisia or if you would have to
have a business there.
Like how you know, how wouldthat work?

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:41):
Well, if you c if you maybe if you contract with
somebody on the ground inTunisia and then you're gonna be
able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:45):
Yeah, but I would have to spend significant time
there to meet them and figure itout.
And you know, and then I wouldhave to fly there, that would
make the trips infinitely moreexpensive.
And I'm not quite sure that'sworth it.
I also try not to fly so much,like I'm very conscious about my
CO2 emissions, so uh I'mactually quite okay with like

(01:13:08):
we're I mean, we're trying toadd other places in Morocco.
We try to travel once or twice ayear to places where we go
hiking and meet guides that wecan then sell.
Like they will guide the trip,but we sell it through our
website and make a bit of moneyon top, which worked really well
in one place and not so well inanother.
So, you know, it's like I said,it's hard.

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:28):
The people are like, we're just discussing some of
those, some of those challenges.

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:31):
If we if we tell them three months in advance, we
will have clients on that day,and you need to be there.
Like, there are not many wherethat will work.
They will send their cousin whothen doesn't speak English, and
it's just that's just not what Iwant to do, you know.

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:44):
So many of our listeners work in the tourism
industry and are absolutelylike, yep, I get that.
They've been there, been there,done that.
But that's also true.
Yeah, so Eva, thank you so much.
This was a fascinatingconversation, super excited to
uh to hear your story.
And I've been wanting to go toMorocco for a long time, and
when I have conversations likethis, it just makes me want to

(01:14:05):
go more and more.
So I suspect I'll see you therebefore very long because it's uh
it's high on my list.
So thank you so much for that.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:11):
That would be amazing.
We would be so happy to hostyou.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:15):
Well, okay then we should I'll just make that
happen.
Yes, it's um super cool place.
So thank you so much, appreciateyou, and look forward to seeing
you in person next time.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:25):
All right, great.
Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:28):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Have a great day.
Thanks.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:30):
Thanks, you two, bye.

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Adventure Travel with Eva Westerling - Berber Adventure Tours Morocco

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Adventure Travel with Eva Westerling - Berber Adventure Tours Morocco