Adventure Travel with Gaurav Bhan Bhatnagar - The Folk Tales, India

Guest Bio

Gaurav Bhan Bhatnagar is the Founder and CEO of The Folk Tales, a company dedicated to crafting conscious travel experiences across India. With more than a decade of experience, he has focused on responsible tourism that fosters deep cultural connections and supports local communities. Recognized as part of the FORTTUNA Global 100 class of 2026 and awarded the Best Cultural Immersion Operator by the Indian Responsible Tourism Awards, Gaurav combines his interests in travel writing, languages, and photography to enrich the journeys he creates. His work extends beyond business to promote storytelling-centered sustainable tourism that empowers grassroots communities and contributes to meaningful livelihoods.

Show Summary

In this episode of the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast, host Jason Elkins speaks with Gaurav about the importance of responsible travel and how storytelling can deepen a traveler’s connection to India’s diverse cultures. They explore how The Folk Tales curates bespoke experiences that go beyond surface-level tourism to engage with heritage and local communities authentically.

Gaurav shares insights into the challenges and opportunities of sustainable tourism in India, emphasizing the role of grassroots empowerment and cultural preservation. The conversation also touches on how emerging founders like himself are shaping the future of tourism with a focus on ethics and impact.

Listeners gain a clearer understanding of how travel can be a force for good when it is thoughtfully designed and grounded in genuine cultural exchange.

Big World Made Small guest features are invitation-only and selected based on story, experience, and fit with the show. Guest support helps make the episode possible, but it does not determine who is featured. This helps keep the show free of third-party ads and interruptions while keeping the focus on real, story-driven conversations.

Learn more about the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast and join our private community to get episode updates & special access to our guests.

Are you a tourism expert with a story to share? Let's connect.

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (01:05):
Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of
the Big World Made Small podcastfor the adventure traveler.
So happy to have each and everyone of you back today.
And I'm also very excited tohave our guest today.
We've got Gorov here.
He is the founder and CEO of theFolktales in India.
Gorov, welcome to the show.
Happy to see you.

SPEAKER_00 (01:23):
Thank you, Jason.
Thank you for inviting me.
And I'm happy to be on thispodcast with you.
Excited to start.

SPEAKER_02 (01:29):
Yeah, we've we've had a few conversations, a few
more conversations than Itypically have with a guest
before the call, but just reallyfascinated by your story and
excited to get in and share thatwith our audience.
Before we get into the storyabout kind of how you got from
where you were to where you arenow, let's just touch on a
couple things.
First of all, where are youphysically located?

SPEAKER_00 (01:49):
Where do you live?
Well, I um I split my timebetween Delhi and the Himalayas.
So my work and my office andeverything is in Delhi.
But personally, I like to spendmore time in the mountains.
And right now, also I'm in theHimalayas, about 350 kilometers
north of Delhi.

SPEAKER_02 (02:06):
Yeah.
So how do you, when you're goingback and forth, I'm just
curious, do you typically fly?
Because I understand that thatthe train ride can be quite an
endeavor.
I don't know though.
So you tell me, how do you getback and forth between the two?

SPEAKER_00 (02:19):
No, so train rides are not really an endeavor
because I used to do that a lota couple of years ago.
So I have been on and off in theHimalayas for the last 14 years.
And uh I used to get a trainbefore.
Now I have a car, so I justdrive between Delhi and the
Himalayas, and it takes abouteight hours.
But trains are quite nice.
A lot of people use trains fromhere, including the tourists.

(02:41):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (02:41):
Because I'm sure you have a lot of guests that arrive
in Delhi and then end uptransferring or moving up
towards the Himalayas, and we'llget into that more.
I was just kind of curious aboutthe geography.

SPEAKER_00 (02:51):
Yes.
So for entire northern India andWestern India, Delhi is the
place where people usually come.
Even for central India.
Delhi's the place.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (02:59):
All right, very cool.
Yeah.
We're gonna, I know we're gonnaget into that more.
Uh, but let's also give ourlisteners a quick touch on what
the heck is the folktales.
Two parts.
One is how did you come up withthe name?
But maybe we start with what isit you do, and then maybe it'll
be obvious kind of where thename came from.
But I'd love to dig into that.

SPEAKER_00 (03:17):
Yeah.
So the folktales is in thesimple words, we are a tour
operator.
But uh, we came up with the namethe folktales because we wanted
each and ex each and everyexperience to be based on the
stories, not just statistics.
Because just think about it,like when we were children, we
remember stories, we don'tremember what we read in our

(03:39):
school books.
So when somebody goes on a tourwith us, whether it's a one-day
tour or a 21-day tour, itdoesn't matter.
It's always through the storiesof the place and the people.
Yeah.
So me including, like I also dothe tour sometimes.
My I have a team who does thetours, and our you know, basic
ideologies that has to bethrough stories with the

(04:01):
communities and as muchcommunity interaction as
possible so that you know you'retaking back memories that are
personal for you.

SPEAKER_01 (04:09):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (04:10):
So there are two ways to do a tour.
One is you look at a monument,you take photos, and you just
exit.
Okay.
Nothing against that.
There are many places that youhave where you have to do that.
But as much as possible, we tryto engage the people with the
community and the story so thatit becomes a personal experience
that they can go and you knowshare with others as well.
Yeah.
And remember perhaps for a verylong time.

SPEAKER_02 (04:30):
Right.
I this is probably a horribleexample, but as someone who
knows very little about India,I'm just trying to get my head
around a kind of an example ofthis would be you can I you can
go to the Taj Mahal and you cansee it.
You can take some pictures andso you can put them on Instagram
and all that.
Or you can maybe do some sort ofTaj Mahal experience that really
digs into the story about why itwas built and what was going on

(04:54):
in the area at the time and andconnect it more to a story.
That's that's the only example Ican come up with.
Is that is that kind of am Ihearing it right?

SPEAKER_00 (05:03):
Yes, I could give you a very nice uh example here
if you would like to.

SPEAKER_02 (05:07):
Please, please do better than the Taj Bahal.
I'm sure it's an amazing place.

SPEAKER_00 (05:11):
I'm giving you an example of Taj Mahal only
because it's very famous andalmost everybody in the world
knows about it.

SPEAKER_02 (05:16):
They can really.

SPEAKER_00 (05:17):
So let me pick up the example of Taj Mahal only,
but I will tell you how itbecomes like a story that you
remember, not just a monument.
So usually what we do is we justdon't do only the Taj Mahal.
We do Taj Mahal from two orthree different directions.
So one is you go into themonument, you do a typical tour,
that's it.
The second is you go to thevillages around the Taj Mahal

(05:40):
and you see the Taj Mahal fromother angles, like from you
know, maybe through a cyclingtour or through a walking tour
while you are having tea with uhyou know some family in a
village, and there is Taj Mahelright in front of you.
Yeah, and then you're not justbuying a ticket and going
inside, you're looking at TajMahel like the way it is for the
locals.

(06:01):
Yeah, that is another way viewof looking at the monument.
Then Taj Mehal uses some uh youknow a very interesting art form
called the inlay art.
Yeah, where you use preciousstones and you you know put them
inside the marble, like you cutit in the form of leaves,
flowers, whatever, and you putit inside the marble.

(06:22):
And that brings about a design.
Yeah.
In Italian it's called a pietradura.
And this art form also actuallyexists in Italy.
That's why I gave this exampleto you.
Okay, sure.
Okay, so the other way ofknowing the monument much more
deeper is to actually visit theartisans who are still doing
this work of in lay art in Agraand participate in a small

(06:46):
workshop where you can learn howto do it yourself.
Okay.
So basically, you're you'revisiting a monument, taking a
ticket and just going inside anddoing a tour.
You are visiting variousfamilies around the Taj Mahal,
looking at it from variousangles, from a farm, from a
village, and then you arespending time with some artisans
learning the art.
That gives a very holisticexperience of a monument, which

(07:07):
is just, you know,run-of-the-mill place.

SPEAKER_02 (07:10):
To say so.
So it turns out that is a reallygood example.
Uh, and I appreciate that.
That was you.
Because I think anybodylistening to this can kind of
get the difference.
There's going to there's goingto see the Taj Mahal, and then
there's going to experience thatarea, the Taj Mahal, the art,
the artisans, and all that.
So okay.
That's very, very cool.
Do you and you mentionedobviously you do more things

(07:32):
than just the Taj Mahal.
But since we're on the to on thetopic of Taj Mahal, is that a
place that just everybody goeson their maybe not their first
trip to India, but is thatthat's the place, right?
So I'm sure even your gueststhat want that full-on
experience, it's it's importantto them to see the Taj Mahal.
I I guess I should just ask you,what percentage of your clients
like insist that they see theTaj Mahal on their trip to

(07:55):
India?

SPEAKER_00 (07:56):
Well, uh, even if a person wants to go to, let's
say, the Himalayas, right?
And they want to spend most ofthe time in the Himalayas, they
still request for a one-dayvisit to Taj Mahal.

unknown (08:06):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (08:06):
From there.
That's kind of what I figured.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (08:08):
Yeah.
Even if they go for a wildlifesafari in the central India,
they still prefer to take a daytrip to Taj Mahal.
It's like that.

SPEAKER_02 (08:15):
Okay.
Yeah.
I I kind of figured that thatwas the case.
So it sounds like it's just partof the itinerary that that's
built in.
I gotta jump on the wildlifesafari thing because help our
listeners kind of visualize whata wildlife safari you said in
central India.

SPEAKER_00 (08:31):
Central India, wildlife safaris are there in
eastern, northeastern India,they are there in northern India
as well, southern India as well.
They're everywhere.
Like India is full of nationalparks.
And they're yeah, depends onwhichever area you go.
And if you have some interest inwildlife, there is an
opportunity to, let's say, seethe tigers, lions, elephants,
rhinoceros, and various like ifyou have interest in birds, uh,

(08:52):
you could go for a birding tour.
Uh, there are snow leopards.
There are snow leopards in theHimalayas, and so there are
people who exclusively come forsnow leopard photography.
So, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (09:02):
Very cool.
And as and let's discuss thesafari part a little bit more
because I'm aware you've gotelephants, you've got yeah,
tigers, you've got other things,I think.
But for our listeners that arereally into wildlife, that for
some reason India hasn't been ontheir radar yet, or maybe it is
on their radar, give them anidea.
Let's talk a little bit moreabout an Indian safari.

(09:22):
What does that typically looklike?
And if you can contrast that tomaybe like an African safari,
because I think people are morefamiliar with that.
What should our listeners knowabout that?

SPEAKER_00 (09:32):
Well, I have personally never been to Africa,
so I cannot draw a comparison,but I can say No, but I bet
you've seen I bet you've seen alot of videos and photos just
like all of us, right?

SPEAKER_02 (09:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (09:42):
Yeah, yeah.
So an Indian safari uh could bedone in a very touristy trail,
also, which a lot of people endup doing.
And it could be done in a veryunique way also.
Like a touristy trail would beyou get up into get into a jeep,
uh, you get into a like a bus,which is all which already has
10 to 15 other people, and yougo on a route which is already

(10:03):
set for everyone.
A unique way of doing a safari,let's say in Western India, a
tiger safari, is to take yourown Jeep and in that Jeep that
will be only personalized foryou.
There will be a naturalist withyou.
And you not only just see thetiger, you after you see the
safari, after you have doneseveral safaris in the same
national park, you also meet thecommunity that is I should say

(10:28):
the conservationists of tigers.
Okay?
So this community that we thinkis a very important part, and we
should not really ignore them aspart of responsible tourism.
They were poachers at one point.
So they used to kill tigers fora living.
Now they are conservationists,so they are protecting the
tigers for a living.

(10:49):
Why?
Because now they are making likethings like handicrafts,
textiles, with tiger motifs allover them.
So now their livelihood hasshifted from poaching to making
something, and that is sold tothe tourists.
So this is a story that you knowgets along very well with the
safari.
And of course, it's not justabout visiting the community,
it's about introduced, gettingyourself introduced to an ex

(11:11):
poacher, getting yourselfintroduced to the story of that
poaching community, and also ifyou like to get something
hands-on, you can do things likeblock printing, you know, take a
little block printing workshop.
I see that you know our groupsreally like that, and uh take
back a souvenir, something fromthere.
So that could be a verymeaningful safari in my my you

(11:32):
know experience.

SPEAKER_02 (11:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Is it a couple things?
The can you mentioned that theyused to be poachers.
I don't know a lot about thehistory of tiger conservation or
poaching, but what was the valuein poaching a tiger?
Was it the skins or was it whywere what was the why were they
poaching them?

SPEAKER_00 (11:53):
Well, it was definitely the skin because in
the you know, before at leastbefore India got independence, a
lot of uh kingdoms in India theyhunting was for was for them a
leisure activity.
So, you know, if you have atiger skin in your palace, it
would be considered like you aresomebody who has achieved

(12:14):
something big in your life.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (12:16):
So but then tiger was and it was when they
switched over to when theybanned it and they switched over
to more of the concept.
Well, first of all, are therestill poachers?
Is that still a problem?

SPEAKER_00 (12:29):
Well, I don't think so that there are poachers in
the tiger area, but yes, thereare some poachers and some
poaching still goes on in thenortheastern India, which is the
national parks known forrhinoceros.
Okay, although because of thehorn of the rhinoceros, it is it
is in a lot of demand in China.
So the rhinoceros conservationhas been very exceptional in

(12:53):
India in the last severaldecades.
They have done really good work.
And the population of rhinoceroshas increased.
And this place called theKaziranga National Park, it is
also there, like you can readabout it online, the amount of
work they have done in terms ofrehabilitating the poachers, and
also kind of creating suchstrict rules that if you're

(13:13):
caught poaching, you could beactually shot, you know,
directly without even asking.

SPEAKER_02 (13:17):
Okay, yeah.
Yeah.
Wow, okay.

SPEAKER_00 (13:19):
Yeah.
But there is still some poachinghappening in that area.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (13:23):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (13:24):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (13:26):
Okay.
Uh, in my mind, and actually youand I had a conversation a week
or two ago, and you'd mentionedsomething about uh traveling
around where you live at night.
And I don't know if you weremaking a joke, but you said
something about getting eaten.
And and I don't know if that wasa joke or if that was serious.
Like, so I guess the questionis, are tigers something that

(13:47):
people like?
I don't know.
I guess the question is, is itsomething that you worry about
when you're navigating around?
Or tigers something that peoplejust generally are scared of?
And how does that influenceconservation efforts?

SPEAKER_00 (14:00):
So when I said about being eaten, that was like a
joke.
But okay, I I I wasn't surebecause but okay.
Yeah.
But definitely you could getokay.
Let me tell you, let me create aproper context so that you know
people don't feel like I am in adangerous place or something.
So I I am in the Himalayas,okay, and usually the life in

(14:20):
the Himalayas is that peoplewake up very early in the
morning, like six o'clock, fiveo'clock, they wake up and they
start their morning work.
Yeah, very early.
And as soon as the sun is down,they start to like wind down.
Okay, they are not there is nonightlife over here.
So people tend to close theirshops, they go inside their
houses, and then that's theirfamily time, having dinner and

(14:41):
everything, and then go to sleeppretty early.
Normally, nobody is you youwon't find people walking around
in the Himalayas in the junglesat 8 o'clock or 9 o'clock in the
night.
Because it's the time for theanimals to come out, okay?
And it's not about being feelingafraid from the animals.
Animals are not in our place.
We are in the animals region,okay?
Yeah.

(15:01):
So, yes, I have seen leopards inmy area.
Okay, and uh, you know, usuallythey don't just attack people
out of the blue.
It's only if you are, you know,they have gone crazy or if you
have done something, like if youare trying to hit the animal,
then they would attack you back.
But there is a very commonmisunderstanding that if you see
a tiger, it will just attackyou.

(15:23):
It it doesn't happen like that.
If an animal has a stomach full,it will not attack you.

SPEAKER_02 (15:28):
So so Gorov, tell me about because I know in some
places the reason that animalsare threatened is because people
are afraid of them.
So an example might be thewestern United States, where
people would bears, kill grizzlybears, or they would kill
wolves, both because maybe theyfelt that they were dangerous,
but also that the wolves, forexample, would eat you know, the

(15:52):
th the idea was that they wouldchase the livestock, kill the
livestock, the cows, the stufflike that.
So in my mind, not knowing muchabout India, I can imagine that
that might be a similar scenariowith things like lions and
leopards.
So I'm curious, is that thecase?
And I mean, is are there somepeople in India that would just
prefer to have all of the tigersgone because they feel

(16:13):
threatened by them or they worryabout their livestock?

SPEAKER_00 (16:16):
No.
So I'll I'll create a differentcontext for you here.
Animals, especially even thewild animals in India, whether
it's about tigers or leopards oror any other wild animal, even
the lion, they also have aspiritual and a religious
significance.
So if you go to, let's say, atemple in the Himalayas, you
will see statues of a tigerthere.

(16:38):
Okay?
So killing a tiger is somethingthat is considered like people
would not just do that becausethe tiger was threatening them.
Because a tiger is supposed to,if you see a tiger in the hills,
people say that you know youhave good luck like that.
So it is not just an enemy, it'sa part of your culture, it's

(17:00):
part, it's a part of yourreligion as well.
It's a it's there in the templeas well.
However, sometimes it happensthat, you know, a few tigers or
or a leopard might, so to say,go crazy.
In that case, what people wouldnot just kill the tiger
directly, they would call theauthorities, they would come and
they would try to catch itfirst.

(17:21):
They would not just shoot thetiger, they would catch it, they
will take it wherever they wantto take it, and then try to see
what's going on.
At the end of the day, there arevery few cases these days where
the authorities have decided,okay, let's just kill it
straightforward.
In the last several years, Ihave seen or I have heard in the
news only one such incidentwhere the authorities decided

(17:43):
that okay, we need to kill it,and that's all we can do.

SPEAKER_02 (17:47):
You said the word lions, and I was like, I don't,
maybe I'm missing something.
What do you mean by lion inreference to India?
Well, a lion is a lion.
I mean Okay, I'll I'll be I'llbe vulnerable.
I had no idea there were lionsin India.

SPEAKER_00 (18:03):
There are there are lions in Western India.

SPEAKER_02 (18:06):
Wow, okay.
Yeah, I was I was almost afraidto ask because I feel like
that's something I should know,but okay, huh?

SPEAKER_00 (18:12):
Well, I I guess there is only one thing in this
world that's called a lion.
There is there are no twothings.
So that thing that you know isthere in India.
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (18:20):
Well well hold hold on now.
In my in my own defense, we havewe have a thing, we have a thing
in the US we call a mountainlion, which is more like a puma
or so it's it's it's a differentanimal.
Okay.
But I know what you when you saylion, that was I was thinking
like an Afri like a lion I wouldthink of in Africa.
I just honestly I didn't know.

(18:40):
I I maybe I'm the only one thatdidn't know that, but I suspect
some of our listers might not.
Oh, that's interesting.
Okay.
All right.
So let's let's get back to it'sit sounds like obviously part of
the the experiences you offer toyour clients would be the
wildlife safaris, you've got theHimala Himalayan stuff.
Give us kind of a a rundown, andI know you like to tie it all in

(19:00):
with stories and community, andI and I get that, but give us a
rundown of kind of the the themajority of the stuff you do.
Obviously, a lot of it's in theHimalayas.
Does that mean tracking,climbing, just what what other
kind of stuff?

SPEAKER_00 (19:14):
So we are not an adventure tour operator.
We uh do not do adventuresports, we do not have expertise
of that.
Although we do some bit oftrekking in the Himalayas.
And when I say trekking, it is amedium grade trekking.
We don't do that high altitudetrekking where you need that
mountaineering gear.
We don't do that kind of thing.

(19:34):
So we are a cultural travelcompany, cultural plus soft
adventure.
So we are currently doing a likethere is a trekking and trip
going on in Ladakh, and thesepeople are going to walk from
several villages, like onevillage to the other, and they
will be camping overnight.
But this I would grade it asthis as a medium grade trek.
So they would have uh porters,chefs, like cooks with them who

(19:59):
will make simple food for themovernight.
They will have some horses tocarry the luggage, but that
doesn't mean the entire trip isjust about trekking.
Trekking forms just four days orfive days of the whole tour.
The other part of the tour isalso has a very heavy element of
cultural tourism.
So when I say cultural tourism,it means that you engage with

(20:21):
the community as much aspossible.
How can you do that?
One way is to stay inaccommodations that are run by
the community.
Okay, so this could behomestays.
And when I say homestays,homestays are not always very
basic.
There are luxury homestays aswell, which are run by
communities.
I'm saying this because a lot oftimes when I speak to people,

(20:43):
they think that okay, homestay,and it has to be a very basic
accommodation.
It doesn't have to be like that.
That is one way.
The other way is to participatein the activities with the
community.
Like activities like what?
Let's say they go to Himalayasand they want to learn some
local Himalayan cuisine.
So rather than going and tastingit in a restaurant, why not have

(21:04):
it, you know, make it with thecommunity and have it with them
as a dinner, a meal?
Okay.
Um, let's say one community hasexpertise in Himalayan pottery,
which is a little difficult,different different than the
pottery in other parts of India.
The way it is done.
So, you know, rather than justgoing to a shop and buying a

(21:24):
pot, why not spend time with afamily on a one-hour workshop,
learn how to do that pottery andtake back a souvenir.
You don't become you don'tbecome an expert in one hour,
but it gives you an experienceof how it happens, and then buy
it directly from the artisan,you know?

SPEAKER_02 (21:40):
Gorov, you you mentioned we are not an
adventure tourism company.
And I get that.
That that definition of whatdoes that all mean.
And I I've made the argument afew times on the show is like,
well, geez, like to me, going toIndia doing a a four-day track,
or not even the track, but justgoing and learning how to make
cuisine in the Himalayas withthe community or or the pottery

(22:04):
or how to do the uh the inlaystuff that you discussed when we
were talking about the Tajbal.
Yeah, to me, that's a friggin'adventure.
And I think it is for a lot of alot of people.
So I just I just wanted to, I'mlike, I think you're an
adventure travel.

SPEAKER_00 (22:17):
Yeah.
Actually, I will cut I willcorrect myself there because I
understand your point of view.
A lot of times when we do a tripof like these off-beat places,
we call it an adventure touronly.
Because there is a differencebetween traveling somewhere in
Europe versus traveling inIndia.
So if you are traveling, let'ssay, I have been to Europe, so I
have seen some tours there.

(22:38):
You have a very, you know,everything runs extremely
smoothly.
You reach from one point to theother, nothing happens in
between.
But let but let's say you'retraveling in India in Ladakh,
you know.
If you're going from one tripplace to the other, there might
be some group of cows in themiddle of the road and you have
to navigate through them.

(22:59):
You might need to climb a littlebit of a hill to reach a
homestead.
Or you might need to wait.
Somebody gets late because afamily that you need to do
pottery with, they got stuck intraffic somewhere and they are
30 minutes late.
So, you know, this is theadventure that we I always say,
you know, you're on anadventure.
Even if you're on a luxury trip,you're still on an adventure.

(23:20):
And you should you should takeit as a part of India
experience, you know.
That's how things are.

SPEAKER_02 (23:25):
Yeah, because I I would suggest that probably 99%
of people in the US, if they hadthe opportunity and some desire
to travel, there's some peoplethat just don't like to do
stuff.
But the ones that do like to dostuff, if they had the
opportunity to go to India andspend a week or two doing things
other than the standard TajMahal tour, it's probably gonna

(23:46):
be the biggest adventure oftheir life.
I mean, you know, actually,yeah.
To go to India and do all thatstuff.

SPEAKER_00 (23:53):
I was thinking of adventure from only one
perspective, but now that I hearyou, I think you're very right
because it's a completelydifferent cultural uh change and
uh you know, so it is anadventure definitely.
Even if you're going to a citylike Jaipur, it's an adventure
because the streets streets ofJaipur are different from the
streets of, let's say, London.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (24:14):
I think when I when I started the podcast, I started
out with the kind of okay,adventure travel podcast.
Because what it meant, becausewhat that meant to me was pretty
much anything except for a bigcruise ship or an all-resort
inclusive, all all-inclusiveresort hotel or beach hotel.
I was like, it's all anadventure because that's just my
mindset.
But then I re I recognize, youknow, some of the some of the

(24:36):
guests I reach, potential guestsI reach out to, like, oh well,
we don't do adventure, we justdo, you know, street food tours
in Amon Jordan.
I'm like, that's that soundslike an adventure to me.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Definitely.
So anyway, where do is it easyfor you to?
I don't know if this is the easyanswer, but where do most of
your clients come from?
Are they mostly European, fromthe States, or do you have a lot

(24:58):
of Indian clients that you workwith?

SPEAKER_00 (25:00):
Uh, we mostly work with international clients.
We are currently not workingwith the domestic market.
The only reason is that the kindof product that is designed for
an international customer iscannot be just sold to an Indian
customer.
The expectations are different.
Can we can we touch on that?

SPEAKER_02 (25:20):
I don't know if there's politics involved in
this, but I'd like to touch onwhat's going on.

SPEAKER_00 (25:23):
There's no politics.
So the difference is that uhlet's say we get a lot of people
from the UK.
Let me just tell you thegeographies first.
So we get a lot of people fromthe UK, US, Canada, and we also
get from South America, theSpanish-speaking world.
Then we get people fromAustralia, New Zealand,
sometimes Singapore.
Basically, anybody who speaksEnglish, that person could be an
Italian, but if they speakEnglish, you know, we have had

(25:46):
them before.
And yeah.
Um we started doing Spanishtours, Spanish-speaking tours
like two years ago, and now thatwe are doing in that language as
well.
So when I say that theexpectations are different,
let's say a British client, theyusually come for anywhere
between two to three weeks atonce.

(26:06):
An Indian customer would nevertravel for three weeks.
That is just not a part ofculture.
So an Indian customer they wantis like a weekend.

SPEAKER_02 (26:14):
Well, that's a that's a big difference right
right there.

SPEAKER_00 (26:16):
Yeah, yeah.
So they want three days, fourdays, five days.
They would never do 21 days.

SPEAKER_01 (26:21):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (26:23):
Yeah.
And also, I I can understandfrom a business standpoint, I
could imagine somebody let'swork with people that want to do
three weeks because it justmakes more sense on many levels.
But as far and it just gives youa lot more flexibility to
provide a more complexitinerary.
But the Indian customer thatonly wants to do three or four

(26:44):
days, are are they inclined towant to do the same types of
activities but on a shorterscale?
Or does somebody that grew up inIndia have no desire to go make
pottery in the Himalayas orlearn how to cook Indian food?
I mean, I can imagine they justwant something different, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 (27:01):
Well, there is a growing set of people who want
to experience Indian culture aswell.
And I'll tell you the reasonwhy.
Because they have been living inthe city for like generations.
Their children are bought upborn and brought up in a city,
like a metropolitan city likeDelhi and Mumbai.
Their children have never seen avillage before.
Their children have not seen acountryside before.

(27:22):
So for them, the reason to takethis kind of a trip is to show
to their children, not forthemselves.
Okay.
When they do, let's say theytake a pottery class, they take
a cooking class, they are notdoing it for themselves.
They are doing it because theywant to show it to their
children.
For a foreigner who is comingfrom the UK, everything is new.
Like a monument is new, cookingclass is new, pottery is new,

(27:46):
like everything is like novelty.

SPEAKER_02 (27:48):
Breakfast is new, lunch is new.
Yeah, I get it.
Everything is like, yeah, that'scool.
Yeah.
Okay, cool.
Let's I want to dig into yourpast.
I want to figure out how theheck did, you know, we get to
this point where you and I arehere having this conversation
about your business in India andwhat you what you were doing
with your clients.
Let's figure out how you gotthere.
So I would like to I like to goback, you know, into childhood

(28:11):
at some point.
I'll let you pick when, but Imean, what was it like growing
up for you?
What was your childhood like,especially those things that you
recall that maybe influencedyour decision to end up working
in tourism?

SPEAKER_00 (28:23):
Yeah.
Well, when I was a little child,I I did not know that there is
something called tourism.
For us, it was just going with afamily on a pilgrimage.
That's all.
And typically in traditionalIndian families, when I say
traditional, it means thefamilies that go in like in a
bunch of 10 or 12 together.
So they usually don't go foradventure tours or cultural

(28:47):
tours, they would generally gofor a pilgrimage.
Okay?
And since my childhood, I havebeen on such pilgrimages with my
family.
So that was all about tourismfor me.
Till the time, at least Igraduated from my college.

SPEAKER_02 (29:01):
Can do you mind can we dig in a little bit more into
what a pilgrimage is?
I mean, I have an idea in myhead, but how would you describe
to somebody these pilgrimagesyou went on as a child?

SPEAKER_00 (29:13):
Yeah.
So a pilgrimage tour for anIndian family would be to go to,
let's say, the Ganges, the GangaRiver in the Himalayas, stay
there for two to three days, andmaybe go to different temples,
pray, have some food, maybe stayin a monastery if they are more
inclined towards practicing thespirituality, and then come

(29:34):
back.
For some people, it could be apilgrimage of even 10 to 12 days
if they are going to walk in theHimalayas.
And when I say Himalayas, thatdoesn't mean that spiritual
tours only happen in theHimalayas.
They happen all over India.
It depends on which region youwant to go to and which region
you associate yourself with.
So how did paint a picture forus?

SPEAKER_02 (29:54):
It's like you and your family, because you
mentioned it's usually kind of alarger traditional group, family
group traveling.
Tell me a little bit about yourfamily.
Did you know how big is yourfamily?
Do you have a lot of siblings?
And what did that what did thatlook like?
Kind of describe going on apilgrimage, like in a way, like
with a story, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 (30:13):
So it would be like, you know, Indian families, they
would just pack up their ownfood.
They would not eat in arestaurant.
That is another culturaldifference.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Okay.
When a British person comes,they do not want to pack their
own food from UK.
But an Indian family, especiallythey're going on a pilgrimage,
they would have like a box offood from their home all the way

(30:35):
to the destination.
And they would be planning itfor a few days.
They do not do very advancedplanning.
They would just plan for, let'ssay, two to three days in
advance, and they would say,Okay, let's just put book
whatever hotel we get, cheapesthotel.
Also, the difference is that thekind of hotel and the hotel
experience is not one of themajor decisions here.

(30:55):
Okay.
The decision is to go on apilgrimage.
Even if you just say stay likefour people in one single room,
it doesn't matter.
Okay.
And then you get on a car.
Usually people go in a car.
And these days, like people havea little more money, so they
start hiring a luxury coach aswell.
But in olden times, people usedto just go by car, or sometimes

(31:16):
on a public bus.
And uh they would reach, let'ssay they would reach a place
called Haridwar, which is in theHimalayas.
I mean, it's a very, veryreligious place where people
just go for religious tourism.
So they would get down, theywould take some public
transport, and they would findsome hotel.
Some sometimes people just landthere and then find their hotel.
Okay.

(31:38):
And most of their time would bespent in going from one temple
to the other and visiting thetemple, and their only intention
would be to absolutely bepraying in front of the god.
For me, it was a littledifferent.
For me, I also go to temples,but my interest lies in what's
going on over there.
Okay, let me observe what otherpeople are doing and why they

(32:01):
are doing this.
Let me try to find out thereason why they are doing this.
Okay, temple is built like this.
Why is it built like this?
Okay, why is it built over amountain?
So I always had those questionsin my mind.
For me, a pilgrimage was notjust about going to a temple and
praying and coming back.

SPEAKER_02 (32:17):
Yeah?

unknown (32:18):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (32:19):
I think that's actually on that on that point,
the way you described that,something came up in my head.
I guess the question I want toask is do a lot of the Indians
that go on the pilgrimage likethis, is this a, oh, this is
gonna be fun.
We're gonna spend time togetheras a family and we're gonna go
have this adventure in a sense,or is it more out of a sense of
obligation?
It's like this is just part ofour culture, this is just what

(32:42):
we do.
We need to go pray in theHimalayas, we need to go to the
Ganges River.
So is it out of sense ofobligation or is it kind of like
a little mini vacation?
So it depends.
I'm sure it's different fordifferent people.
It sounds like for you it was alittle bit more about the
absorbing new things.

SPEAKER_00 (32:57):
Yeah.
So it depends.
Let's say sometimes people justlike to go together and spend
some time together once or twicea year.
In from that context, it is justa time to bond with different
family members, bond together.
Yeah.
There are times when it's anobligation as well.
Let's say somebody has died, youknow, some family member has
died, and you want to do thelast rites of that family

(33:20):
member, and for that you go to apilgrimage.
Then it becomes an obligation.
It's not like to bond with eachother.

SPEAKER_02 (33:28):
And what about I also because I spent a lot of
time traveling around the USwith my father and my brother
when I was younger, and it wasnot luxury travel in any sense.
We were in the pickup truck, wepretty much slept at you know
truck stops and stuff quiteoften.
Oftentimes would buy a bunch offood and bring it with us in

(33:48):
instead of doing restaurants.
So I get that.
But I also remember I guesswhere I'm going with this is
siblings.
Like when you put a bunch ofkids in a car.
And I'm just curious if you hadthat experience of, hey, you're
on my side of the seat, or hey,you he won't leave me alone, or
she like do Indian kids fightwith each other on these
pilgrimages?
Is that like kind of astereotypical thing, or do you

(34:10):
feel like Indians get alongpretty well when they travel
together?

SPEAKER_00 (34:14):
Well, I'll I'll say a statement that could be taken
as a humor, and but I wouldprefer that it is taken as a
humor.
Okay.
Like Indians, Indians have nosense of person space, okay.
I have heard that.
So if and you know, before Isaid that, I said that please
take it as a humor.
Because if you're going in acar, okay, and the car has a

(34:35):
capacity of five people, youcould easily stuff in ten people
in the same car, okay?
And they would have no problem.
They would nobody will say youare in my seat, you are in my
space, nobody will say that.
They will just sit on top top ofeach other and they will go,
okay?

SPEAKER_02 (34:51):
Yeah.
And for cult the culturaldifferences, you know, you take
a typical American, uh, youknow, a family from the US, and
probably presumably Australiaand some other places as well.
You know, you put two kids inthe back seat and they're
fighting the whole time.
You know, it's like he's on myside of the seat.
So it's an interesting culturaldifference, which I actually

(35:11):
appreciate.
I love cultural differences, butyeah, all right.
That's that's that's kind offun.
Thank you for shank you forsharing that.

SPEAKER_01 (35:18):
That was funny.

SPEAKER_02 (35:21):
All right.
So, so your travel experiencesas a child were mostly these
pilgrimages.
You were, it sounds like alittle bit more interested, and
how did these this get here?
How you know, the history of thethe backstory basically than
others.
If I went to you when you were15 or 16, if I had a time
machine and I said, Gorav, whatdo you want to do when you grow
up?
What do you think the answerwould have been?

(35:43):
Did you have any idea?
What did I want to do when I wasgrowing up?
When you grew up.
Like when you when you're anadult, what kind of work do you
want to do when you're whenyou're an adult?
Do you do you know what youwould have said at that age?

SPEAKER_00 (35:55):
Absolutely.
So I have a clear answer tothat.
I did engineering.
I did engineering when I wasgrowing up, but it was not my
choice.
I did engineering just becauseeverybody else was doing it.
Okay.
And as people know all over theworld, most of Indians are
engineers.
Okay.
So, but my interest was alwaysinto either becoming a pilot,
like a commercial pilot, or afashion designer.

(36:19):
I don't know why fashiondesigner, but that's an
interesting mix.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (36:23):
It's an interesting mix.
Let me ask you on the on thepilot part, was it because you
were really interested in planesand how they work in aviation,
the engineering side of it, orwas did you see it as an
opportunity to travel andexplore?

SPEAKER_00 (36:38):
Yeah.
I had no interest in planes.
My interest was in travel.
Okay.
And when like commercial pilotlicense is quite expensive to
get in India, at least for anIndian middle-class Indian
family.
So that is one of the reasonswhy we couldn't like or like why
I we did not have money tobecome like a commercial pilot.
But after I was do like while Iwas doing the engineering, I

(37:00):
actually tried to become a pilotin the Indian Air Force.
So that if not the commercialpilot, at least I become a
fighter pilot.
Um because I'll tell you why.
Fighter pilots do not travel allacross the world, but the sound
of the plane, the sound of afighter jet above you, is so
thrilling.
Like you get goosebumps when youhear the sound of a fighter jet.

(37:22):
And that is what excited me, youknow.
I wanted to get thosegoosebumps.
Actually, I have them now also,like why I'm talking to you.

SPEAKER_02 (37:28):
Just thinking about.
Was yeah, do you remember wasthere a particular thing that
happened or something you saw,like a movie or something like
that, that that caused you toget excited about that?
Um, because I remember Top Gun,you know, with you know, back in
the day, the fighter jets, andit was yeah, that made me want
to go be a fighter pilot.

(37:49):
I'm just curious if there wasanything like that in your
world.

SPEAKER_00 (37:52):
I don't remember exactly if I saw a movie or
something.
I used to see a lot of Hollywoodmovies in my childhood as well.
I think I was the only one inthe family who was watching
non-Hindi movies back then.

SPEAKER_02 (38:04):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (38:05):
But uh I don't think a movie inspired me.
It was just the sound of theplane that was so exciting that
I wanted to be in that plane.

SPEAKER_02 (38:13):
Was there was there an Air Force Was there an Air
Force base near where you lived?
Or uh did you go to an air show?
Or I when do you remember thefirst time you heard a jet like
that and got excited?

SPEAKER_00 (38:24):
Yeah, I mean, uh in Delhi, around Delhi, there are a
few Air Force bases, and maybe Iwould have heard some fighter
going above our house andsomebody might have pointed out
to me that that that's a fighterjet, and that's how I came to
know that that's not a civilianplane, that's like a military
plane.

SPEAKER_02 (38:39):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (38:40):
Maybe, but I don't remember exactly this part.

SPEAKER_02 (38:42):
Alright, so which which direction did you go?
Did you end up in the Air Forceor did you No, no.
Where did you go from there?

SPEAKER_00 (38:49):
I did not end up in the Air Force because the the
maximum age of entering the AirForce is 21 years old.
And by the time I I alreadycrossed 21, like I was 21 and a
half when I realized that okay,let's explore being in the
Indian Air Force.
So that was that was not anoption anymore.
Um I did engineering and I wasan engineer, like a software

(39:13):
engineer for almost eight and ahalf years.
Worked in India, I also workedin the UK, where I was based in
a place called Milton Keynes,and that's a bit further away
from London.
And when I was there working asa software engineer, then I got
the chance to basically do a joba lot of backpacking across
Europe.

(39:33):
And that was the first time Igot introduced to the concept of
solo backpacking.
Before that, the travel wasalways like in a big family
group and spiritual travel, thatwas all travel for me.
So I saw that people were justtaking backpacks, taking a train
or a flight, some cheap Europeanflight and going to different
countries, and I wanted to dothat.
So I bought a backpack and tooksome leaves on and off and

(39:56):
started traveling across Europe.
And I did quite a few journeysacross Europe.
So that opened up my perspectiveabout you know, okay, so there
is a lot more to what I alreadyknow.
Then I came back to India aftertwo years of staying in the UK,
and then somehow I was no longerinterested in software
engineering.
I started exploring differentavenues.

(40:17):
So what happened was my interestin travel started going up, and
at the same time, my interest insoftware engineering started
going down.

SPEAKER_02 (40:24):
I've got this, girl, I've got this image in my head
of your parents, like, great, weour son is an engineer.
He's going off to the UK, andthen he's starting to backpack
around, and then you come backand you no longer want to be an
engineer.
So did you break your mom'sheart?
Did your was your familysupportive of of this shift, or
were they like, uh, I knew weshould have never we never

(40:46):
should have let him go off tothe UK because now he doesn't
want to be an engineer anymore.
Was there any of that?

SPEAKER_00 (40:52):
No, I don't think they were ever, uh, you know,
they ever said that we shouldnot let him have let him go to
the UK because they were quiteproud of me going to the UK and
working over there.
As an engineer.
As an engineer, or even if Iwere something else, they would
see my going to the UK was notassociated with my profession.
They looked at me as like alittle child, like I was 24, but

(41:15):
for them I was still a littlechild.
So they looked at me as a littlechild going to a foreign land.
For them, it doesn't matterwhether it was software
engineering or something else.
Okay.
So when I came back from there,and I did not immediately leave
engineering, I still continuedin that for almost five years
after coming back.

(41:36):
But slowly and steadily, Istarted exploring different
avenues.
So I tried, first of all, 3Danimation.
I did a degree course in 3Danimation because I thought that
if I could do that, I'll go tothe US and probably work in
Hollywood.
Okay.
But then after I completed theanimation course, I realized
that after wasting so much ofmoney, I do not want to do it.
Okay.

(41:57):
So it was a quite expensive uhcourse.
Like it was it was in dollars,it was not even in rupees, so it
was quite expensive.
But my family did not sayanything because as long as it
was my money, it doesn't matter.
Like I was not asking them formoney.
Okay.
Then after that, I did travelwriting, I did blogging.
I still have a blog, and uh Itried to make it as a career,

(42:18):
but I realized that it could beas a as a hobby, but it it is
very difficult to make blog as astable income source.

SPEAKER_02 (42:29):
Was your blog was your travel was your travel blog
specific to India or otherplaces as well?
Or just I'm just curious.

SPEAKER_00 (42:37):
So the theme of the travel blog is rural and
responsible tourism.
That could be in India or thatcould be anywhere else.
Yeah.
Um I still have that blog by theway, it's still online.
I I simply do not have time towrite on it these days.
Then I also tried to dophotography.
I am pretty decent inphotography, not like a
professional, but I tried tomake it like a professional

(42:59):
thing.
It did not work.
I realized that no, I can do it.
Then I gave myself a littlebreak and I started thinking,
okay, what to do, what to do.
And then I came up with thisidea of the folktales.
I do not have any degree intourism.
I have not studied tourismanywhere.
So for me, this was a risk.
I did not know how to run abusiness because like I had not

(43:20):
done any business before.
And doing a business versusdoing a job are two very
different things.

SPEAKER_02 (43:26):
Well, yeah, they they probably don't teach a lot
of that in engineering school,I'm thinking.
Of course, they don't.
Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 (43:31):
Of course, yeah.
Right.
They don't even teach us what todo in a job, so let let alone a
business.

SPEAKER_02 (43:36):
That's that's that's a whole nother conversation.
That's yeah, but I I hear you.

SPEAKER_00 (43:40):
Okay, all right.
That's a whole otherconversation.
So then we will uh we learned iton the on the go.
We we made mistakes.
I also, along with the business,I for a very long time I did
content writing to supportmyself in the background because
I could not just leaveeverything and do only business.
We learned and then weidentified a target market,
whether we want to work withIndians or foreigners or like

(44:02):
small groups, big groups, whatis our really sweet spot?
And then finally we arrived atthe sweet spot that okay, we
want to be a tailor-made tourcompany, doing either
independent groups or smallgroups with foreigners who want
to visit India and they want tosee a different side of India
through stories.
That's what we really found thesweet spot.

SPEAKER_02 (44:23):
I wonder if I missed something because all of a
sudden I heard you saying we.
So I don't know, I don't know ifI missed something, but you said
we did this, we looked at this,we came up with this plan.
So somebody else is involved.
So let's uh at the at thatpoint, was that or were you when
you say we meaning you yourselfand you, or what is what does
that mean?

SPEAKER_00 (44:43):
No, so when we started the company, we I had
another co founder with me.
Okay.
And now she was with me for likesix months, but then after that,
she had to geographically moveto another part of India.
And from there, in those days,it was not easy to just
coordinate for over 3000kilometers.

SPEAKER_02 (45:00):
Yeah, yeah.
So she decided to move away.
Was she an Engineer as well, ordid she have some a little bit
of knowledge about tourism orbusiness that helped in the
beginning?

SPEAKER_00 (45:11):
No, she was from the development sector.
She worked for nonprofitorganizations.

SPEAKER_01 (45:16):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (45:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you've got this plan.
So were and you were still doingsome work on the side as you
started the business?

unknown (45:24):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (45:25):
Or your primary business, maybe the the business
was the side hustle.
I don't know.
No.
What how long did it take beforeyou got to the point where you
were able to really kind offully focus on the folktales?

SPEAKER_00 (45:36):
So between 2014, like we started in 2014 and up
to 2000, let's say around 19, Iwas doing content writing as
well.
And content writing was notnever the main thing.
Business was always the mainthing.
I was giving my business most ofthe time.
Content writing was like asupport system to keep me
stable, just in case somethinggoes wrong here.

(45:57):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (45:58):
What is what is content writing?
Because we talked aboutblogging.
You said it was hard to makemoney blogging.
But when you say contentwriting, what kind of content
were you writing?

SPEAKER_00 (46:08):
Yeah.
So blogging, what I the thingthat I was doing was an
independent WordPress blog thatI had hosted online.
Okay.
And I was just doingtravel-based content.

SPEAKER_02 (46:17):
Okay.
So we're now still talking aboutyour blog.
When you say content writing,you're talking about for your
blog.

SPEAKER_00 (46:23):
Okay.
Yeah.
So when I say I was doingcontent writing to support
myself financially, that was forother businesses.
So, and that need notnecessarily be travel content.
Because I come from uh anengineering background, I did
content writing for everything.
Like I did for the chemicalindustry, construction industry,

(46:45):
shipping, manufacturing,education, prefabricated houses,
construction, everything.
I could do that because I comefrom an engineering background.
But at the same time, my focuswas entirely on building the
business.

SPEAKER_02 (46:58):
Did when you just described some of those
industries and writing contentfor some of those industries?
Yeah.
The thought in my head, and thisjust me, it was like, oh my
gosh, that sounds painful forsome for me.
It doesn't mean it was for you.
Maybe it was very easy for youand you enjoyed it.
But I'm curious, were youfeeling like I need to hurry up
and get this folktales thinggoing full-fledged so I can quit

(47:20):
writing articles about soap?

SPEAKER_00 (47:22):
Not really, because I was I was enjoying both.
Because like for me, I did notwant to run away from the
content as soon as possible.
First of all, I had uh a goodteam.
And the people who are mymanagers, they were really good
and I was enjoying working withthem, but I was not in a
full-time job.
I was working like remotely.
Secondly, um this kind ofcontent, you know, who doesn't

(47:46):
like money coming in?

SPEAKER_02 (47:47):
So it's nice sometimes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (47:51):
So even if I do not enjoy a certain part of the
content, I'm happy to do itbecause I know that it is
supporting me in order to buildsomething even more meaningful.
But I was not like undersuffering or under any torture
or anything.
I in fact wrote for a lot ofAmerican companies as well.
I have done content for yourcontainer industry, shipping
container industry, I have donecontent for petrol, petroleum

(48:15):
fracking in US.
Wow, like completely differentthings, and you know.
But that opened up myperspective so much.

SPEAKER_02 (48:24):
Yeah, well, sometimes the variety too.
If you're if you're only writingabout shipping containers for
six years, that might be adifferent story.
Yeah.
No, okay.
All right, so it so it soundslike you said in 2019 is you
kind of went to the next levelwith the business, or what
happened in 2019?

SPEAKER_00 (48:42):
So basically, 2019 I went through a phase where I was
quite sick.
Like I could not do content, Icould not do business, I could
not do anything at all.
And uh I was going through sometreatment in a hospital for
several months.
And after that, when the COVIDcame.
So eventually, like I was pushedout of the content automatically
by the universe.
And when the COVID got over,everything got over, it made me

(49:04):
time to rethink.
It gave me time to rethink andkind of restrategize my entire
life.
And when COVID, after COVID, thetravel started again, I moved
100% into travel.

SPEAKER_02 (49:14):
Okay, at this point, were you did you have any
partners or was it pretty muchyou?
And I mean, who else wasinvolved with the company after
COVID and you started umfocusing 100% on it?

SPEAKER_00 (49:26):
Employees working for me.
I don't have any co-founders atthe moment.
I do not have any partners inthe company, but there are
employees who work for us takingcare of operations and
everything.
And of course, there are there'sa lot bigger team who work for
us as like freelancers, which isspread across India.
So that's a team of almost like70, 80 people who work as
freelancers for us.

SPEAKER_02 (49:46):
All right, very cool.
Do you feel like yourengineering background has been
beneficial in at least coming upwith systems?
So say, for example, yourwebsite or you're keeping track
of reservations and operations,because that's something that I
think a lot of people that gointo tourism don't have the
engineering mind.
So they they tend to, if youlook at their operation or their

(50:08):
marketing systems, they're alljust kind of all over the place.
But did that come in handy foryou?

SPEAKER_00 (50:13):
Absolutely.
We have spent several years justrooting systems and processes in
place.
So, and that is the completecredit goes to my engineering
background because we we havesystems that talk to each other.
They are not isolated systems.
So our accounting system, CRMsystem, marketing system,
emailing system all areinterconnected with each other.

(50:35):
I did not hire anybody to dothis.
I did this myself.
Of course, I use a third-partyproduct, but I integration and
everything, you know, just ideaabout how it should work
together.
This all came from engineeringbackground.
So I just do give credit to whatI studied for those four years
in my graduation.

SPEAKER_02 (50:51):
Has have you ever thought, geez, I figured out how
to put together the back end ofthis tour operation company with
all the engineering backgroundand stuff like that?
Is is that on that?
The potential in the future isto set up some sort of
reservation system, CRMs and forother tour operators, or is it
just something you just didbecause you wanted to do it for
yourself?

SPEAKER_00 (51:11):
No, so we it is not our own CRM.
We use a third-party product.

SPEAKER_02 (51:15):
But as far as tying it up, but as far as
implementation and tying it alltogether, you basically you
probably have something now youcan could potentially share with
others, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 (51:25):
Well, if somebody wants consultation, I could
just, you know, tell them how tojust get everything together in
the company.
If they are if they have anyproblem of bookings, not being
able to like they are not ableto track bookings, they don't
know what their finances are,they don't know where their
money is being spent, they donot have a dashboard.

SPEAKER_02 (51:42):
Or you you just described 80% of tour operators
on the planet.

SPEAKER_00 (51:46):
Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_02 (51:47):
And I and I I I say that in a joking way because I
know people are listening, butbut I've it's it can be a
challenge for people.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (51:54):
Yeah.
All right.
Or they do not know when theirnext booking is coming in, they
forget the taxi driver, theyforget to tell to the guide, all
these little little things.
It can all be brought togetherin a unified system and process.
That's what we have done.
And I think as I said, it allcredit goes to the engineering
background.

SPEAKER_02 (52:10):
What do you enjoy most about your business right
now?

SPEAKER_00 (52:13):
Well, the flexibility to be in the
Himalayas and run a business allover India, I think.

SPEAKER_02 (52:19):
Right.
What's your least favorite?
What's the what's your leastfavorite?
What's the thing that keeps youup at night?
You're like, oh geez, I reallydon't like this part of it.
Is there a part that you reallydon't like or that you're or
that you're willing to sharewith us?

SPEAKER_00 (52:30):
Well, there is nothing that keeps me awake at
night.
I sleep and I sleep.
But uh that's good.
There is one thing I would liketo, but you know, it's a
cultural thing.
You can't do anything about it.
Sometimes in India what happensis that you you put together a
bulletproof tour, everything isproperly set, everybody knows
what to do, and then one personwill start doing their own

(52:51):
thing.
They will they will chuck theprocess out of the window and
they will start doing their ownthing.
It could be a driver, it couldbe a guide, or it could be
somebody like you know, whoever.
And that's something that we youknow, it happens all the time,
at least with one person.
Let's say we tell the driverthat okay, our clients are they
want you to drive in thisparticular way, and you need to

(53:12):
take care that you drive in thisparticular way.
And suddenly something willhappen to him and he will start
driving like a crazy person.
So we are the very few thingsthat we take care of, like these
are the part of the operationsthat we take care of.
It's not something to be scaredof, but it's something to take
it in a positive stride thateven if something happens, there

(53:35):
is a team behind to take care ofit.
Okay?
I'm just saying that it's acultural thing that people
sometimes take their own tangentand do their own stuff.

SPEAKER_02 (53:45):
I you know that's fascinating, and I can I can
imagine it's it's not just Indiasometimes, there's other places
that that that can be achallenge.
But also one of the things thatwe have been talking about is
the community involvement, thecommunity interaction.
And I'm curious if you couldjust share with us for a few
minutes what what's that likefiguring out, okay, there's this

(54:07):
cool little village communityover here and they do this cool
little thing.
I wanna, I would love to be ableto offer that to our clients.
And when you show up in thecommunity and and discuss this
idea with them, what is thatlike?
What comes up around that?

SPEAKER_00 (54:22):
Yeah.
So I'll tell you that first ofall, not every community wants
to work in tourism.
Even if we say, oh, we are goingto get your business, we are
going to get tourists, itdoesn't mean that everybody will
be open to it.
And that's okay.
We respect that.
We only work with thosecommunities who are actively
open and proactive about workingin tourism as well.
So if I am approaching acommunity, I am not teaching

(54:45):
them anything.
I am using their skill.
Let's say if I'm approaching acommunity that is expert in
weaving with silk, so that istheir skill.
I cannot teach them what theyare already good at.
What I can do is, as a toolcompany, I see what their skills
are and I see how that can beproductized into a travel
product.
Whether it should be athree-hour product or a one-day

(55:08):
product or a two-day or aone-week product, and how it
should be designed in such a wayso that somebody from the UK or
the US or South America can comeall the way 16,000 kilometers to
India and experience that notjust as a weaver, but as a
tourist who needs good food, whoneeds good place to sleep, who

(55:30):
needs somebody who is a goodcommunicator, can tell the story
of that place.
It is not just important to dosomething, it's also important
that somebody is telling youeffectively about that place.
Yeah.
So productizing all these thingsis our job.
And we do enter into that phaseonly when we see that the
community is interested inworking in tourism as well.

SPEAKER_01 (55:51):
How do you with you?

SPEAKER_02 (55:56):
Do sometimes you show up and hey, here's an idea.
Are you guys interested in doingthis?
Are they usually embrace it?
Are they direct?
Will they say, if they're notinterested, will they say no,
we're not interested?
Or how do you figure out ifthey're serious or not before
you start sending clients there?

SPEAKER_00 (56:13):
Sending the clients comes much later, like almost
after six, six months, sevenmonths later.
As I I think I discussed withyou last time that uh Indians
never say no straightforward.
They will they will do thingsand you have to figure out that
they they are not interested.
Let's say I approach a communityand they say, okay, we will see

(56:33):
how if you want, we areinterested.
And then what will happen is thetelltale signals are that the
people will forget to come, theywill forget the schedule, they
will say, Oh, I I was somewhereelse and I forgot.
Please let's do tomorrow.
These are the signals that thecommunity is not interested.

SPEAKER_02 (56:52):
That's interesting.
If and culturally, I mean, I'msure sometimes don't you want to
just look at them and say,seriously, just yes or no.
Either way is fine.
Just please just tell me now.
I won't be offended.
But you culturally, culturally,it's difficult to do that
because you would that beoffensive or if you just
seriously, just yes or no.
Which is it?

SPEAKER_00 (57:12):
In India, I personally prefer to say yes or
no.
And that is a problem for a lotof people because that is people
don't like, you know, if I sayno, it is taken as an offense.
But I personally like to sayjust no, I don't want to do it.
However, if we are travelingacross India, as I said, you
have to just figure out.
I do not want to work withpeople who are not particular

(57:33):
about a schedule or following atimeline who do not want to be a
part of, let's say, a learningworkshop.
I mean, if you can't take outtwo hours to be a part of a
learning workshop, how can youhost a tour of two days?
So that's a very good signal forme that either I need to find a
new community or I need to finda new person.

(57:55):
I cannot change somebody, I canonly use their own skills.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (58:01):
And imagine a scenario where at the very
beginning, before you get toofar with them, is just set up a
series, not a series, but maybeeven just one appointment.
You know, hey, let's meet atsuch and such at nine o'clock to
discuss this.
And if they don't even if theyshow up late for that one or
don't show up for that one, thenit's okay.
Well, I guess they're notinterested.

SPEAKER_00 (58:22):
Well, yes, I mean, yeah, our our work is already
very operationally intensive.
My operations person has to keepcalling somebody or the other
every day from morning tillevening.
We do not want to make it evenmore difficult.
We want to make it easy.

SPEAKER_02 (58:36):
Even like in my experience working with a lot of
guides over the years, even theguides that are really
enthusiastic, really like theirjobs.
Yeah.
Even they sometimes have a hardtime maintaining schedules and
following through oncommitments.

unknown (58:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (58:49):
So you can imagine you take someone that's not even
that interested.

SPEAKER_00 (58:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (58:55):
What a pain in the butt.
All right.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (58:57):
Well, I completely agree that everybody is a human.
And let's say there is a personwho is really good at their job,
and sometimes they, you know, doa mistake.
It's okay.
I mean, we don't we are notgoing to hold them by the
collar.
They are human and they can domistakes.
It's all right.
That's how we think.

SPEAKER_02 (59:13):
Yeah.
And and there are still culturaldifferences because you're
dealing with a European, youknow, clientele.
At least you, I don't know, youprobably get Germans every once
in a while.
People from the United States.

SPEAKER_00 (59:23):
Sometimes we do get Germans, Austrians as well.

SPEAKER_02 (59:27):
They they kind of like the schedule to work the
way it's supposed to work.
And I I mean that's a hugestereotype I should stick away
from, but but it's culturallythere can be differences.
I spend a lot of time in LatinAmerica.
There's three words in Spanishthat basically mean now, but
don't really mean now.
You know, the word is ahora,yeah.
It's like ahora could be in awhile, it could be tomorrow,

(59:50):
ahorita is like a diminutive,yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Casi ahorita, ahora ya ahorita.
Yeah, or they'll say umGiacomino, like I'm on the way,
which means you know, yeah,they're they're having their
coffee, getting ready to take ashower.
So, anyway, so culturaldifferences are always a bunch

(01:00:12):
of fun.
We discussed a bunch of things,and I appreciate everything that
you've shared with us, and Iwant to make sure we didn't miss
anything that's important toyou.
So I'm curious, what do you wishI would have asked you?
Or what do you is there anythingelse you want to share with our
audience before we wrap up?

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:28):
Yeah.
I want to give a like a snapshotof the kind of experiences that
are available in India.
Because when somebody thinksabout India for the first time,
the first place to think of isRajasthan and Taj Mahal or they
think of Kerala.
Because these are two of theplaces that are heavily marketed

(01:00:49):
all across the world.
It's like the Eiffel Tower.
But India, you can have cent,you know, if you go to central
India, it's not just nationalparks.
There are village, beautifulvillage communities, tribal
communities in central India.
If you want to see likeadventure, if you want to see
like activities like caving andrafting and you know, trekking

(01:01:12):
and living with the tribes andyou know, experiencing culture
that is more closer to SoutheastAsia, like Myanmar and Vietnam.
The entire northeastern Indiashares its culture most more
closely with Vietnam and Myanmarthan with New Delhi.
Okay?
Yeah.
So whether it's about their foodor their language or their

(01:01:35):
accent, the way they speak,everything is more closer to
Southeast Asia.
You can experience SoutheastAsia in India to a certain
extent.
You can go to the Himalayas.
And Himalayas doesn't only meanthat you know you go for a
trekking.
You can go for a culturalexperience where you spend
walking with the nomads ofLadakh.
Okay?

(01:01:56):
You can spend a luxury tour inLadakh where you stay in all
like eco-friendly five-starhotels.
You can at the same time, if youlike activities, hands-on
activities, you could spend timewith the Pashmina weavers.
If you have an inclination intextiles, you could do two to
three-day workshop of learninghow to do Pashmina weaving.

(01:02:17):
If you have religious significlike there are people who come
to India for Buddhism becauseIndia is the place where
Buddhism started.
So a lot of people fromSoutheast Asia, we have received
people from as far as Korea whocome to India just to experience
Buddhism.
And we design and experiencelike 14 to 15 day thing just

(01:02:38):
about Buddhism.
They go to caves, they see thewall murals, they talk to monks,
they even get to see thescriptures in the monasteries.
And you know, there is aBuddhism expert who will
translate between English andTibetan for them.
So it is not just aboutRajasthan and monuments and
forts and Kerala.
There is so much more in Indiabeyond what you see in just

(01:03:01):
normal advertisements.
That's that's something that Iwanted to give a snapshot of.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:06):
I you know, I think there's I I want to ask you this
because it's it's a challengingquestion to ask, but the reality
is an awful lot of people thatlive in the United States or
people that I've hadconversations with about India
have probably a totallydifferent experience than you
offer your clients.
But there's the person that wentto um went to India to see the

(01:03:28):
Taj Mahal.
They spent a week there and theygot sick, you know.
They they came back and they, ohwell, when we went to India, we
got sick, we ate something.
Da-da-da-da-da.
And I mean, it's just it'ssomething I hear a lot.
I it wouldn't stop me, but somepeople hear that some people
that's what they hear aboutIndia.
Their friends say, yeah, we wentto India, we got sick.
But I'm sure most of yourclients don't have a totally

(01:03:52):
different experience.
So I just want to touch on that,if you don't mind, just in case
somebody's listening to thisthat has avoided India because
somebody 10 years ago said theygot sick.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:01):
So I completely understand and accept that this
is a genuine question forpeople.
So I am not at all saying it'snot a problem.
But if you are going in, let'ssay, a private tour, it is
always best to talk to theperson who is designing your
tour.
That what kind of food will webe eating and where will we eat

(01:04:21):
that?
First of all.
Um for example, to our clients,we always give a bottle, like it
has a bottle with a filterinside.
So you could fill it fromanywhere, you could fill it from
a restaurant, you could fill itfrom a tap, you could fill it
from like wherever.
And it will filter like 99.99%of anything.

(01:04:42):
And it is a certified claim,it's not just in the air.
So that is a way we protectpeople from at least anything
from the water.
When it comes to food, it isalways best to stay in a good
hotel or in a homestay.
Because in a homestay, the foodis always prepared fresh.
In our homes in India, we do noteat food from two days before.

(01:05:05):
We always cook fresh.
So any food that is hot andfresh will not make you fall
sick.
What will make you fall sick isif you are eating on the
streets.
Because sometimes the people whouse the oil on the streets, they
use it over and over overmultiple days, and that is not
good.
If let's say you are you just goto a shop and you eat something

(01:05:26):
because it looks nice, you don'tknow if like what that shop is.
You just saw somewhere onTripAdvisor and you went there
and you ate something.
But I wouldn't really recommendthat.
Just be depending uponTripAdvisor or some Instagram.
You can discuss it with yourtour operator, and if it's a
nice tour operator, they willtake time to explain it to you.

(01:05:47):
I think they have thatresponsibility to give you an
explanation.
When honestly, in last 12 yearsof our business, two times.
Two times people have fallensick.
And when they fell sick, wehelped them.
We, you know, we gave them likea proper medication, we helped
them with local medicines aswell, uh, which immediately, you
know, makes them feel better.

(01:06:08):
But just two times in 12 yearsis is like a very low
probability, no?
What do you think?

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:14):
Yeah, no, that sounds great.
And what I love about yourresponse is you acknowledge
right off the bat, yeah, Iacknowledge this is a concern
that people have, and this iswhat we've done about it.
Because I remember I was on atrip with an operator years ago,
and I got a little sick.
I wasn't following anyguidelines.
They didn't give me anyguidelines.
I was just eating wherever andwhatever.

(01:06:36):
And then the response when Isaid, geez, I'm not feeling very
good, the response was, oh,well, you're just not used to
our, you know, you're just notused to our food.
And it wasn't anything, it wasjust, it was in Venezuela.
And it just kind of like, oh,you're just not used to our
food.
Like it was my fault forsomehow, whatever, whatever.
And I was on my own to get tothe pharmacy.
I didn't speak any Spanish atthe time.

(01:06:57):
And, you know, I'm at thepharmacy trying to explain to
this person what my problem is,you know, using body language.
And yeah.
So anyway, it was one of thoseexperiences.
Like, so when I hear yourresponse, I'm like, man, if I'd
if I'd gotten that response withthat tour operator back in the
day, I probably wouldn't even bethinking about questions like I
just asked you.

(01:07:17):
But I appreciate that.
That's uh uh anybody that wasthinking about that now is gonna
feel like they should probablyreach out and talk to you.
Um Gorev, we're gonna have alink right to your website in
the show notes.
So, you know, people that arelistening, if if India is on
your radar at all, which ifyou're still listening to this
conversation, my guess is yes,you know, go go reach out to the
folktales, take a look at whatthey're doing.

(01:07:39):
And uh thank you so much.
I really appreciate you sharingso much.
It was a fascinatingconversation.
And um, next time I have anopportunity, I I flew through
Delhi.
I stayed at the airport forthree hours, and the whole time
I was there, I was like, oh, I'mkilling myself.
I just gotta I want to get outof here and and get out of the
airport, meaning not get out ofDelhi.
But so I I suspect I'll see youthere in person at some point
soon.
Thanks, Gorov.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:01):
Sure.
Uh Jason, it doesn't have to beabout tourism.
If you happen to fly throughDelhi, if there is an
opportunity, we could gettogether for a coffee or
something.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:10):
Absolutely.
It sounds it sounds good.
That would be fascinating.
So yeah.
All right, I look forward to itand uh I'll I'll see you in
India soon.
Thanks, Gorov.
Sure.
Bye bye.