Adventure Travel with Justin Wateridge - Steppes Travel

Guest Bio

Justin Wateridge is the Managing Director of Steppes Travel, a specialist tour operator known for designing immersive, tailor-made journeys around the world. With decades of experience in the travel industry, including previous leadership as Managing Director of Abercrombie & Kent UK, Justin brings a deep understanding of both luxury travel and meaningful exploration.

Raised in Zambia and educated at Oxford, Justin’s passion for travel was shaped early through exposure to diverse cultures, landscapes, and wildlife. Over the course of his career, he has visited more than 150 countries, working as a tour leader, expedition guide, and pioneer of exploratory journeys. His experiences range from tracking wildlife in remote regions to leading ambitious overland expeditions, all of which continue to influence his perspective on travel today.

Justin is a strong advocate for travel as a force for connection and understanding. He believes that meaningful travel experiences foster empathy, challenge assumptions, and create lasting personal impact. In addition to his work in the field, he has spoken at venues such as the Royal Geographical Society and contributed written insights on global travel. He lives in the Cotswolds with his family and continues to pursue adventurous challenges, often in support of charitable causes.

Show Summary

In this episode of the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast, host Jason Elkins speaks with Justin about a life shaped by global exploration and a career dedicated to meaningful travel. From his early years growing up in Zambia to leading expeditions across Asia and Africa, Justin shares how his experiences in the field ultimately led him to a leadership role at Steppes Travel.

The conversation explores how travel has evolved over the past few decades, from navigating the world without modern technology to today’s increasingly connected experience. Justin reflects on the value of human connection in travel, emphasizing the importance of local guides, cultural understanding, and stepping beyond curated itineraries to truly experience a destination.

Justin also offers insight into how Steppes Travel approaches trip design, focusing on personalization, deep expertise, and creating journeys that go beyond surface-level tourism. Throughout the episode, he reinforces a central belief: that travel has the power to break down barriers, broaden perspectives, and bring people closer together in meaningful ways.

Big World Made Small guest features are invitation-only and selected based on story, experience, and fit with the show. Guest support helps make the episode possible, but it does not determine who is featured. This helps keep the show free of third-party ads and interruptions while keeping the focus on real, story-driven conversations.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (01:05):
Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of
the Big World Made Small podcastfor the Adventure Traveler.
So excited to have each andevery one of you back here today
and also very excited to have awonderful guest.
We've got Justin Waterich.
Justin is the managing directorfor Steps Travel.
Justin, welcome to the show.
Good to have you here.

SPEAKER_00 (01:23):
Jason, thank you very much for having me here.
It's a pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 (01:26):
It's gonna be a lot of fun.
We spoke, it was only a week ortwo ago and chatted a little bit
about kind of what you're doingin the world.
And I thought, man, we just needto come back and record the
conversation, share it withother people.
So Justin, we're definitelygoing to dig into your
background, childhood traumas,stuff like that, figure out what
got you doing this crazy stuff.
But before we do that, let'sgive our listeners a quick idea

(01:46):
of what is, for those thathaven't heard of it, what is
steps travel?
What are you guys doing?

SPEAKER_00 (01:50):
So Steps Travel was a specialist tour operator that
was founded in 1989.
As the Soviet Union was about,it was beginning to disintegrate
and first went into sort ofMongolia, what are now the
stars, and hence the name wasoriginally Steps East.
And then it bought a smallsafari company, it set up
Destination South America anddiscovery initiatives that was

(02:10):
travel that supportsconservation.
And we move on sort of 30 oddyears to where we are today.
We're a specialist touroperator, mainly FIT, so
telemade tours.
We do do some fixed departuresthat are expert-led.
Most of our clients are fromeither the UK, US, or
English-speaking Europeans.
And we take them to 90destinations around the world

(02:31):
and we have a team who really,really know their stuff.
Our business is predicated ontheir expertise and their
service.

SPEAKER_01 (02:38):
Very cool.
It sounds like you've got prettydialed in on what it is you guys
do.
That was very concise and great.
Thank you so much.
Hey, I don't want to make anyassumptions, but I I'm kind of
guessing where the word stepscame from.
Let's go a little deeper intothat.
What is the actual word steps?
What does that mean and how didit get incorporated into the
name?

SPEAKER_00 (02:58):
Well, steps refers to the geographical feature that
is grasslands that you get inareas such as Mongolia, also
Argentina.
And it was originally, as Isaid, they were setting up
pioneering trips going into thatregion towards the end of the
Soviet era.

SPEAKER_01 (03:14):
What inspired that?
I'm just, I we're gonna we'regonna get into the background
and stuff like that.
I don't want to go too deepright now, but it seems like an
interesting oh, okay, the SovietUnion's falling.
Let's start a business sendingpeople to all these former
Soviet bloc places.
Um I don't know.
Tell me.

SPEAKER_00 (03:32):
I didn't set it up.
So it was set up by a wonderfulman called Nick Lane, who's
still our chairman.
And yeah, he's always had been apioneering spirit and had this
curiosity that takes you todifferent parts of the world to
explore different areas andpeoples.

SPEAKER_01 (03:47):
That's that's that is very, very cool.
All right, let's let's get tolearn about you, Justin, because
people don't end up in thisbusiness by well, sometimes they
end up in it by accident, butthere's usually kind of a
journey along the way.
So how far back do we need to goto kind of figure out how you
got from where you were to whereyou are now?

SPEAKER_00 (04:04):
Wow, that's a big question.

SPEAKER_01 (04:06):
I know.

SPEAKER_00 (04:07):
Yes.
I had the the privilege and ofgrowing up in Zambia, a
wonderful country in in Africa,a wonderful childhood there.
I came to school in the UK, andthen I came here to Unit while I
was here at University atOxford.
And then after that, I I workedin London for a bit.
I loved London.
I probably partied far too hard,but after a few years I realized
that I wasn't enjoying what Iwas doing.

(04:27):
And I saw a trip uh with anothercompany leading leading trips in
China.
And in my year off, I'd beenthere very briefly, that was
1989, and I was fascinated byChina then.
Sort of mouse suits withDerriga, um, sort of bicycles
ruled the road, um, and it wasvery different from anything
that I'd seen before.
And so I did it for six months,and I just thought it'd be a
cathartic experience to work outwhat I wanted to do.

(04:50):
I loved it so much.
I spent longer with differentguides, working with different
guides.
I met a different cross-sectionof people from sort of
professors to postmen to nursesto doctors to whatever.
And I ended up leading trips forthem for several years in
different parts of the world.
I then went on to do some of myown expeditions.
I met my night wife, and after awhile she said, Look, if there's

(05:10):
any future between us, you can'tspend all of this time overseas.
So I I've heard that before.
Yeah, it was probably the onlytime I listened to her.
Uh and I I looked for jobs intravel.
And Justin?
Yeah, yeah.
Do you mind?

SPEAKER_01 (05:23):
Can we we glossed over that grew up in Zambia
thing pretty quickly?
I'd really like to dig into thata little bit more.
How did your family end up inZambia?
Were you born in Zambia?
Tell me more about that.

SPEAKER_00 (05:36):
So, yeah, my my father was working in
newspapers, he was running theZambia Daily Mail, and yeah,
both my brother and I were bornthere, and it was Zambia at the
time in the 70s was everythingwas wonderful, but at the end of
the 70s, uh, the copper marketcrashed, and Zambia had all its
eggs in that one basket.
And so during the 80s was avery, very difficult time for
Zambia.

(05:57):
So it was I we've always lovedthe people, I've always loved
the country.
My sister's still there, butyeah, it was and I had the best
of both worlds because I I waslucky enough to come here to the
UK for for education aged eight,um, and then would go back for
two holidays a year to Zambia.
Okay.
Were your parents from Zambia?
No.
My father had grown up in whatis now Ethiopia, Eritrea around

(06:20):
there, Abyssinia at the time,uh, and in Egypt, his father
would had worked in in thecolonial office.
So he'd he'd always he alwayshad a love of Africa.
And yeah, and he found work inZambia in the late 60s.
What about your mom?
Where is she from?
So she's Scottish, um, and whilewhilst we're in Zambia, she
worked for the WildlifeConservation Society, um, a US

(06:40):
organization.
And again, that I suppose one ofmy introductions into wildlife
and love of wildlife was wasthrough that and through her.

SPEAKER_01 (06:47):
I'm happy we didn't skip past that.
It sounds like an importantpart.
So, all right, so you would go,you were going to school in the
UK from from what age?
Uh you you mentioned you comeback a couple holidays.
Eight.
So your parents stayed there andsent you sent I don't want I
don't want to say it in anegative way, sent you off,
shipped you off school school,and it's probably got a lot to

(07:11):
answer for in lots of differentways.
Was that pretty common forfamilies in places like Zambia
that could send their kids offfor boarding school?

SPEAKER_00 (07:20):
It w it wasn't, it wasn't.
Um there were options in SouthAfrica, but my father um
deplored apartheid, didn't agreewith it at all, didn't want to
send me there um because of theapartheid regime at the time.
Uh in the in the late 70s, therewas a war going on in in what
was then Rhodesia before itbecame Zimbabwe in in in 1980.

(07:41):
So again, that wasn't really anoption for me.
So there were there were therewere no good options, so we say,
uh, apart from coming for theUK.

SPEAKER_01 (07:48):
Okay.
Did what do you remember ofthose those years before?
I know if you were eight, I'msure you have some memories of
when you actually lived inZambia.
You were going to school withlocal kids, uh, or what was that
like?

SPEAKER_00 (08:03):
It was great.
I loved it.
Sort of my best friends were butthere was a couple of Zambian
guys and an Ethiopian guy,Gideon.
I remember him very well aswell.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (08:11):
What did you guys what did you guys do?
What does a seven oreight-year-old or six or seven
or eight-year-old kid living inZambia do for fun with with your
buddies?

SPEAKER_00 (08:21):
So you you live for the weekends and going down to
either the Kafui River or or oneof the parks and stuff like
that.
It is a destination like that isabout the w wilderness and it's
about being out in the bush.
Man, it's yeah, it's that thatlove appreciation of the bush.

SPEAKER_01 (08:35):
And presumably you weren't going by yourself with
your buddies, your your family.
I mean, it sounds like you justgo as a family and hang out in
the bush.
Did you camp?

SPEAKER_00 (08:45):
Yeah, a bit of camping, yeah.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (08:48):
All right, what does camping look like in Zambia?
Because I've been to Zambia.
I saw some a lot, I saw a lot ofanimals, but I stayed in a it
was a camp, I guess, but itwasn't camping.

SPEAKER_00 (08:59):
Can you like just pitch a tent and sleep on the
ground or you can't pitch a tentanywhere, and certainly not in
the national parks.
You you either on the edge ofthe parks or you go in uh for
the day on on various gamedrives.
So yeah, you can't where wherethe wildlife are, you can't
really pitch a uh tent.
But there were places down onthe low Zambezi where you could
camp before it was gazetted as anational park.

(09:20):
And so yeah, that there waswildlife around.

SPEAKER_01 (09:22):
All right.
Very cool.
Do you remember?
Obviously, you were interested,it sounds like in the wildlife.
If I'd gone back, I don't knowif I could answer this question,
but I'm gonna ask you.
If I could go back in time andfind Justin when he was seven
years old and say, Justin, whatdo you want to do with your
life?
What do you want to be when yougrow up?
Do you remember?
Do you have any idea what youwould have said?
You know, I don't I don't, I'mafraid.

(09:44):
I don't think I could either.
I don't know an astronaut orsomething like that.

SPEAKER_00 (09:48):
And I I didn't expect to work in travel.
It was something that, as Isaid, it was my six months
working with Explorer Worldwidejust really Yeah, just changed
my outlook on different things.
And I by By spending longer incountries, by seeing countries,
you just learn so much morerather than through the echo
chambers of social media or thenews or whatever.
And and I very much believe thatwhen you travel to places that

(10:09):
it does break down barriers, itchanges sort of stereotypes that
we have about different places,your your perception, your your
perspective.
It's uh and that's why I'm a bigthat's why I am travel.
That's why I'm a big believer inthat.

SPEAKER_01 (10:20):
I I I get it, and that resonates through a lot of
the conversations we which ispart of why I love doing this
podcast, is you know, the peoplethat come on are have been
exposed to that stuff.
We're gonna discuss that more.
But tell me, were you pissed offwhen you were eight and they
shipped you off to the UK?

SPEAKER_00 (10:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (10:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (10:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Especially I I had to wearleather shoes, which I probably
hadn't worn before.
Um still wearing shorts.
In Zambia that's fine, but inthe UK it was a lot colder.
And there were colds.
I never really had a cold beforeuntil I came to the UK.

SPEAKER_01 (10:51):
And the other kids in the boarding school, were
they mostly kids from the UK?
I mean, how did you fit in?
I guess it's like because youlook like you're from the UK,
but obviously you kind of youkind of have to fit in.

SPEAKER_00 (11:06):
It's sort of it's yeah, you you you swim or you
sink, sort of thing.
So yeah, you you fit in, andyeah, most of the kids were were
from the UK.

SPEAKER_01 (11:14):
Was did you get to the point eventually where you
were happy with school and hadfriends and you weren't so
butthurt with your parents?

SPEAKER_00 (11:20):
Yeah, I de definitely so.
I I sort of uh I think it wasdifficult at first.
It was was lonely, but uh yeah,you make friends and I've got
some very good friends, notnecessarily from my prep school,
but from my where I wassecondary school, 13 to 18, I
got some very, very good friendsfrom there.

SPEAKER_01 (11:34):
Okay.
What was your thought processduring that time?
As were you starting to thinkabout what you wanted to do with
your life?

SPEAKER_00 (11:40):
I didn't think about it.
I I wanted to do something ofgood.
I'd always been interested tosave the world.
And even after I worked withExplorer for a while, I did an
MSc in development studies inSOAS, which is the School of
Oriental and African Studies inLondon.
But I I was quite put off bysome of the bureaucracy behind

(12:00):
development and the and theyeah, it's not all that it's
cracked out to be.
It doesn't necessarily these thesmall organizations achieve a
lot, but some of the bigger onesit become it becomes all about
them rather than about the thepeople, the area that they're
trying to conserve, preserve,whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_01 (12:18):
Right.
At that point in time, did youkind of envision yourself
considering to live in the UK,or were you having thoughts of
going back to Africa to live?

SPEAKER_00 (12:26):
Or I've always got thoughts about going back to
Africa to live there, but Ithink my wife and children would
uh not be so happy about it.

SPEAKER_01 (12:34):
Well, you can just send them off to boarding
school.
Bad joke.
All right, so fast forward, andwhat did you you studied?
What was I don't know how theeducation system works.
You talk boarding school, prepschool, all these things, but
what was your first like divinginto a particular field of
study?
When did that happen?

SPEAKER_00 (12:52):
I studied history at university.
I started three years, threeyears at university doing
history because it's a it's agood all-aro degree, it's about
analytical skills, and it and itenabled me to get to a good
university and then hopefully agood stepping stone to a career
after that.

SPEAKER_01 (13:07):
All right.
So how did the opportunity togo?
Tell me more about theopportunity to go to China.

SPEAKER_00 (13:13):
So I just saw an advert asking looking for tour
leaders, and so I applied forthe job and had a weekend sort
of uh well, a series ofinterviews and and was
successful, and they said,right, you're off to China for
six months.
And I I got very excited aboutit.

SPEAKER_01 (13:27):
Were you intentionally looking for
opportunities in tourism, or wasit literally it just kind of
came across your desk?
Oh, that sounds interesting.
What was going on?

SPEAKER_00 (13:36):
Exactly.
It sort of came across my desk,it looked really interesting,
and I as I said I'd been therevery briefly for a few weeks
before, back in about uh five,six years previously in 1989,
and I was just so fascinated byChina that I was just interested
in the opportunity to go backthere.
Uh and I was lucky that I didbecause it was a time that was
changing so fast.

(13:57):
I think when I went first in 95,there were a lot of cars for the
first time in Beijing andGuangzhou, but still a lot of
bicycles, and then you'd comeback a year later and the
bicycles had almost gone away.
You'd see changes in socialmorals that uh in 95 it was
still there was no public uhdisplay of affection between men
and women.

(14:18):
Men would walk around holdinghands, but not men and women,
and suddenly you see that changethe next year.
So you just saw this societyjust changing so so so quickly.

SPEAKER_01 (14:29):
I think I'd heard that before, but you mentioned
men holding hands.
What was it about the culturethat that that made what can you
tell me about that?
I'm just curious about that.

SPEAKER_00 (14:39):
Well, you see you see it in many cultures.
I I certainly certainly saw itin Africa a lot as well, uh,
throughout Africa.
And I think it's sort of it'snot a uh it's not a statement,
it's just a friendship thingthat rather than one of
bisexuality in any ways.

SPEAKER_01 (14:52):
Yeah, it's interesting because then um I
spent a lot of time in LatinAmerica and it's very common to
see women, you know, justfriends just walking down the
street holding hands, or adultwomen holding their their
mother's hand, which and notbecause their mother needs the
help, it's just it's super,super common, but you don't but
yeah, but it doesn't meananything about anything that you

(15:13):
know what we might carry aroundin our heads.
So you said you went to Chinayou said 95 was the first time
you went, or did I get the date?

SPEAKER_00 (15:26):
Okay.
So how old were you in 1989?
In 89 I was uh just over 18.

SPEAKER_01 (15:33):
Okay.
And uh tell me more about thattrip because who'd you go with?
Was that a school thing?
How did you end up there?

SPEAKER_00 (15:41):
Uh I was going out to Australia, to Sydney, to work
at a school there um that had aa link with my the school I had
been at in the UK.
Um and I was what they called inAustralia a rent a pump.
So I was I was sort of like a avery junior teacher.
Okay.
And yeah, and that was a lot offun, and it sort of went there

(16:02):
via Hong Kong, and then fromHong Kong went into China for to
Guangzhou, Gui Lin, and a fewother places in Guanju.

SPEAKER_01 (16:09):
So oftentimes when something like this comes up in
a conversation, I I always wantto ask, well, what did your
parents think of you off at 18spending time at China and
stuff?
But with your parents, maybeit's totally different because
you weren't living with themanyway.
They sent you off to the UK.

SPEAKER_00 (16:23):
Exactly that kind of kind of that you were
semi-independent already and andoff you go.
Um and I think that yeah, therewere no mobile phones then, so
the only form of communicationwas with going to the
post-restaurant, where you putyou pick up your letter and you
and then you you send yourletter.
And it was like always thedecision when you go to the
post-restaurant, do I do I openit straight away now, or do I
find a cafe or a bar to sitthere and read it?

(16:44):
And yeah, so it's but the systemworked, and we were still in
contact with with parents, withloved ones, whoever it was when
we're when we were traveling,and we've still met up with
friends.
I I don't know how, again, wedidn't have phones.

SPEAKER_01 (16:55):
Yeah, yeah.
It's and a lot changed.
You mentioned a lot changed inChina, but just a lot changed in
the world between 1989 and 1995.
Because I remember I graduatedhigh school, I should remember
that, 91.
And I went off to college, andthere was this guy, an older
guy, talking about oh, there'sthis electronic way of sending
mail to each other, and a lot ofthe universities are using this.

(17:17):
And I thought he was crazy.
I was like, Yeah, whatever, thatsounds ridiculous.
But then within a couple ofyears, email was a real thing.
Uh and I don't and even atprobably around 95 was I mean,
were you do you remember usingthe internet in 95 when you went
back?

SPEAKER_00 (17:33):
Not really.
I think it was probably first alittle bit later than that.
And I but I still remember in 99I did a big trip up the Mikon,
and the friend I was travelingwith, I had to set him up a
hotmail account or whateverwhatever account it was so that
he could uh AOL probably, right?
You remember AOL?
Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, you'd you'd have tofind a a little computer store,
whatever, and send off youremails.

(17:54):
An internet cafe, exactly that.

SPEAKER_01 (17:55):
Internet cafes, yeah.
Yeah, I I remember that.
And it was, and I had done alittle bit of traveling before
all that technology, and it was.
It was just it was justdifferent.
And uh it's almost so easy now,but that's a whole nother
conversation.
I mean, you know, everybody'sgot this phone and a map in
their pocket.
And for those of of ourlisteners that are listening and
not not watching this, you know,you're sitting in front of a big

(18:16):
map right behind you.
And I don't know, I'm justcurious.
The the conversation around mapshas come up a lot.
Maybe it's because I bring it uplike I'm like I'm bringing up
right now.
Do you did maps play?
Was that were you interested inmaps?
I don't know.
It's a weird question.
But I see you sit in front of amap now.
Was that something that you wereinto when you were young?

SPEAKER_00 (18:34):
Yeah, I love maps.
I love pouring over maps andsort of uh looking at different
things.
And I think that this lastweekend I was in the Faroe
Islands and I was in somewherethey had a very old map of the
Faroe Islands, and it was sortof the A, the depiction of
Scotland, of Iceland and Norway,the surrounding area around the
Faroes was was very, verydifferent.
And I so I love them for theirfor the history, what they say
about different places, butthere's nothing quite like being

(18:56):
in somewhere, being in situ toto really understand and
appreciate sort of uh thetopography, the altitude,
whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_01 (19:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I wonder if you know if we werehaving this conversation, if our
kids were having thisconversation um 20 years from
now, if they'd even talk aboutmaps, if that would even be you
know something that's on theirradar, because you know, go
ahead.

SPEAKER_00 (19:19):
We use maps, you mentioned the phone, and
everything's on the phone.
So yes, yes, we we followedblindly sort of the Google Maps
or whatever maps we use on ourphone and take us from A to B.
Again, last year I was in theBaltics and I was driving around
there, and and so Google Mapstook me from A to A to B to C to
wherever, and it was really,really easy.
But then you go to somewherelike Venice and you can almost
do the same in Venice, yet thatalmost detracts from being in

(19:40):
Venice because half the charm ofVenice is is is wandering around
that little side street or goingoff B and getting lost.
Yeah.
And then you find those littleplaces rather than just going
straight there.

SPEAKER_01 (19:50):
So I maybe it says something about people's
personalities, but you know, Itravel a lot.
I'm in I'm in Bogota right now,and when you see people, I don't
not necessarily tourists, justlocal people, even they're just
walking following a map.
You know, they've got the phonein their hand, just follow the
little blue line.

(20:10):
And you you almost want to askthem, like, okay, so when you
finally get to your destination,what did you see?
They saw a blue line the wholeway.
And I'm so much more likely tokind of like, you know, because
I can hold my phone, it kind ofpoints which way I'm facing, and
I say, okay, it's roughly thatway.
And then I just put my pocket,my phone in my pocket, and I
just walk roughly that way.

(20:31):
And every intersection, I'mlike, okay, should I go left or
right?
And I, well, whichever way justlooks more interesting, is
generally the way I'm gonna go.
And then sometimes, you know, 40minutes into a 20-minute walk, I
realize that, oh, I think I gotoff course somewhere, but I
don't care.
It's like, you know, so what?
It's there's all the cool thingsyou see.

SPEAKER_00 (20:51):
I think that's exactly right.
That you sort of you you havethose serendipitous moments, you
find things, you discoverthings, and you're also seeing
it through your eyes rather thanthrough Google's.
I think that too many peoplejust like they also listen to
what Google tells them about aabout a site or building or a
place.
And it's like, no, you shouldask a local person about that,
because he or she will tell youfar more, or they'll tell you
their own story rather than justa litany of facts about it.

SPEAKER_01 (21:14):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (21:15):
A couple of years ago, I was travelling from El
Salvador to Nicaragua across theBay of Honduras.
And whilst I'd been in ElSalvador, I hadn't seen many
other sort of foreign travellersat all.
But suddenly then when we got tothe coast there, there were a
load of backpackers.
And it again took me back 30years ago about the you've got
the cool guy and girl on theguitar playing away, the very
nervous traveller lookingaround, waiting for why why's
the why is the the ferry notgoing, etc.

(21:37):
And there was an El Salvadorianguy going around and said, Look,
I speak good English, I cantranslate for you, I can
translate for you.
And all the young kids put uptheir phone and said, No, no,
we've got Google Translate here.
Yeah, yeah.
Come on.
And then when we when we landedin Nicaragua, uh the luggage had
gone separately, so it was allsitting there on this sort of
black volcanic beach.
And you get out and you go, yougo to your luggage, and then

(21:59):
there's a guy from customs therewho's looking at looking through
bags.
And there was one thisbackpacker, I remember she had a
rucksack and it was full ofbadges from all other Latin
American countries.
And he simply goes, Where'sNicaragua?
like this.
And she she just didn'tunderstand, she wasn't reading
them.
She looked to her phone for theanswer on her phone.
And I had to say to her, look,he he's making a joke.
Where's your flag for Nicaraguahere?

(22:19):
You've got to just look atpeople, read them, understand
people, not your phone.

SPEAKER_01 (22:24):
It's, I mean, if every yeah, if if it's it's an
interesting thing because Ithink that the technology has
opened the world up to an awfullot of people that may not
otherwise go, you know.
So maybe the young backpackers,it's like, hey, I've got my
phone, I can I've got translate,I've got maps, and I can go
anywhere I want, but they leanso heavily on that that they

(22:47):
miss out on so manyopportunities.
And I I look back at maybe thebackpackers or the travelers
that were traveling back in the60s, even, and and you wonder
maybe it was a little harder,but I don't know.
Do you think somebody that wastraveling in the eighties is
more adventurous than theaverage traveler?
Now, I shouldn't ask that, but Idon't you know.

SPEAKER_00 (23:07):
I don't think more adventurous.
I think I think travel is easiernow, but it doesn't that the my
children or other young peoplearen't aren't as adventurous.
I think you can still beadventurous.
And I think back then, 30 yearsago, though you go to some
village in Laos or somethinglike that, and they would all
the backpackers would be in onesmall little restaurant, despite
the fact there's lots ofrestaurants, and that's because
that was the restaurant featuredin The Lonely Planet.

(23:28):
And it's like, well, you knowwhat, there is more to lying for
bang or wherever we are in thanthan what the Lonely Planet
tells us.

SPEAKER_01 (23:35):
So it's um there have been many times when I'm
walk around looking forsomething, and I think, oh, I
could pull out my phone, andthen I'm like, wait a minute,
why am I gonna do that?
Like, I know it's easier to saythis because I've learned enough
Spanish now.
I spent a lot of time in LatinAmerica.
I've learned enough Spanish now,it's probably easy for me to
say, just go ask somebody.

(23:55):
But even then, sometimes I Itend I think, oh, I'm looking
for something.
I I think to pull out my phone.
I'm like, wait, why would I dothat?
I'll just ask somebody.
Because you have suchinteresting conversations can
just pop up when you just asksome.
Like they might not even knowwhat you're looking for, and
they might even send you thewrong direction.
But you know, half the timethey'll just say, Here, come
with me.
Let's go, I'll show you.

(24:17):
And they'll walk with you fortwo or three blocks.
Not because they're trying toget money out of you, just
because they're like that.
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (24:22):
Yeah, no, and you mentioned language, and I think
when I used to travel, I used tolearn various phrases at least
of the country that I was goingto.
And now I'm just I'm maybe I'molder, lazier, I don't know.
But I think it's such a good uhthing to do is just learn some
basic phrases.
A the the people will welcomeyou much more warmly as a
result, and it'll open doors foryou in different ways.

SPEAKER_01 (24:43):
So yeah, and literally just a few words
because I, you know, I spent acouple months in the country of
Georgia this uh this past year.
And when I got there, I waslike, yeah, I'm gonna learn all
these Georgian words.
And I think after two months, Igot three of them worked out,
right?
And I realized I don't reallyneed more than that because it's
enough.
It's just, you know, when yousee some gumar jobah or

(25:04):
whatever, you know, or I learnedsome some Russian words because
most people there knew someRussian.
And it was just enough that theywould, well, I don't know if I'd
say they'd smile.
They're not the smiliest groupof people, but they would at
least try and engage and uh youknow and help you out a little
bit, as opposed to if somebodylooks like me just shows up and
just starts speaking English,expecting everybody to just

(25:25):
respond to what I say.
It it's just a differentexperience, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 (25:29):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
It's it's I suppose it'stravel's about have having that
empathy uh with other people,understanding with other people
and trying to create that thatunderstanding.
Yeah.
So how much Chinese did youlearn?
I could get by.
I I could get by, but I neverlearnt it formally.
And uh when I was doing the bigtrip up the Mekong, we were we
were cycling and we were in inYunnan, southwest China, and we

(25:52):
were I was asking directions forsomewhere, and the this guy had
a local dialect, and he he'dprobably say the same about me.
He had I had a crazy dialect,but I I couldn't really
understand what he was saying.
And then he said, Okay, I'llwrite it down for you.
But I said to him, But I don'tread.
And he looked at me and goes,Are you stupid?
And I go, No, no, I'm just notChinese and I haven't learned
the kanji, I can't read.

SPEAKER_01 (26:11):
Yeah, I I don't know what you I mean, I I remember it
had the little dictionaries, youknow, the phrase books and
stuff, yeah.
Phrase books, so I assume youit's like I haven't even seen
one of those in a long time, andI guess why would I?
You know, I guess I've got thatin my pocket already.
But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (26:30):
But there's there's look, there's there's words that
you learn like uh there's a wordin Chinese, Urbai Wu, which is
um 250, but it all if you say itwell, it's also a slang word for
you're crazy, like Nisha UrbaiWu like this, and you say that
and the Chinese look at you go,wow, and it's that you create a
reaction like that, or theChinese, if they've been
derogative about Lawaiforeigners like us, they you say

(26:51):
da bitsu, which which means bignose, and some are bigger than
others, but you go dabitsuongwaha, like the Chinese,
the big big nose speaks Chinese,and they go, Oh, again, it's
like and especially in aespecially in a village in the
middle of nowhere as well.
Um, that's where I think it's tospeak put on to Mandarin is
yeah, it's important.

SPEAKER_01 (27:07):
And you were leading groups.
I mean, you were a tour guidethere.

SPEAKER_00 (27:11):
Yeah, I was a tour leader, but the the work with
national guides, with localguides as well.
They had the the expertise inChina, and I was more I suppose
the facilitator making sure thatpeople got from A to B to C.

SPEAKER_01 (27:21):
Let's let's talk about that because yeah, there's
facilitators, but there'sprobably Chinese people that
could do it just fine, get frompoint A to point B.
But what do you see in the valueof having like a a tour leader
that maybe looks like, soundslike, thinks like the guests
that are going on the trip?
What does that add to a trip?

SPEAKER_00 (27:41):
I think at the time in China, tourism was still very
sort of nascent, and thereweren't that many good guides.
So it was working with guides toto help them and also to get
them to better understand sortof cultural differences.
And like you can't call somebodya uh a Twitcher if they if they
like burning until they unlessyou know them very well or that

(28:03):
whatever.
And so there are there'ssometimes there's those cultural
differences, and it's sort of umyeah, and it wasn't a di it
wasn't a difficult place, but itwasn't an easy place to travel.
It was traveling was quite hard,especially on trains.
The Chinese trains now are justincredible.
But then it was still still froma communist era.
These they were normally verylarge men or women who used to

(28:23):
run the restaurant cars and theywere yeah, just surly
aggressive, and yeah, it was nono customer-client service,
really.

SPEAKER_01 (28:32):
So yeah, I mean I personally I see the value.
I've led a lot of group tripsand and been a tour leader as
well.
And uh it is useful.
It's it's super, super usefulbecause I've run into situations
where okay, this guy's reallygood at what he does, but he's
got a few things that he doesthat if you're not there to kind
of explain to your guests, well,yeah, I know he does this weird

(28:52):
thing, but and explain theculture behind it and and all
that stuff, because uh otherwiseyeah, it can it can it'd be a
totally different experience.
With well, I don't want to jumpto steps quite yet, but let's go
back Okay, so steps you saidstarted around 89 as well with
the fall of Soviet Union, yeah.

(29:14):
And you were a tour leader inChina in '95.
How long were how long did youstay in China doing that?

SPEAKER_00 (29:22):
So uh over the next two or three years I was in
China for six months period.
I wasn't there the whole year,and then whilst I wasn't in
China, I was in Ethiopia,Eritrea, Kenya, Tanzania, Mali,
Pakistan.
Yeah, so just leading tripsyear-round then?

unknown (29:39):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (29:40):
Alright.
So how far into that process wasit before you realized, yep,
tourism is my life, this is whatI'm gonna do, travel.
Did you figure that out prettyquickly?

SPEAKER_00 (29:50):
I did, but I also realized that tour leading is is
is great, you mean wonderfulpeople, but it's not it's not
it's very difficult to make aliving out of it.
And so that's why I did a coupleof my own expeditions to try and
sort of, I don't know, justyeah, just do something a little
bit differently with withintravel.
Yeah.
So one of them was following thethe Mekon from its from its
mouth in Vietnam to its sourcein Tibet, so five months

(30:11):
travelling the Mekon.

SPEAKER_01 (30:12):
Did you do that kind of on your own or were with
clients or what was that?

SPEAKER_00 (30:18):
With one friend.

SPEAKER_01 (30:20):
Wow.
What was the probably a lot ofbig takeaways.
Sure, a few big takeaways ofthat trip.

SPEAKER_00 (30:27):
Yeah, I think I I think just the So the We started
in Vietnam, Cambodia, andCambodia then was still there
was uh the Khmer Rouge was stilloperative in the north round
Stung Trang, um, and it wasn'tit was still a very tense place.
Then Lao and Lao was only justopening up and then into China.

(30:49):
And I think that the colonialFrench had ex had an expression
for Indochina that theVietnamese grow rice, that the
Cambodians uh watch rice grow,and the Laotians listen to rice
grow.
And it's a wonderful phrase thatsort of aptly sums up the
laid-back attitude of Laotians,but it also kind of risks
stereotyping the Laotians intojust being laid-back people.

(31:10):
So and that's one of the sort oftight roads that travel faces.
You've got to try and understandindividuals, peoples, nations,
different quirks and sort ofidiosyncrasies, but but not
label them as as such.

SPEAKER_01 (31:23):
Right.
Did you, when you started thisjourney, did you know you were
like, was this a okay, we'regoing from the mouth to the
source?
It's a sure thing, or was itjust like let's ride up the
river for a while and see whathappens, and you ended up at the
source?
How did that work?

SPEAKER_00 (31:37):
Yeah, we were we were trying to get to the
source, but we always knew thatgetting into Tibet would be not
easy.
And we did so illegally, and wewere in Tibet maybe some two
weeks until we got put on a busand shipped out.

SPEAKER_01 (31:51):
Okay, tell me more about that.
How did how did they find you?
They just arrest you on thestreet, like, hey, you don't
look like you belong here?
What what happened?

SPEAKER_00 (31:58):
Yeah, because we were two foreigners and in we
were high on the Tibetan plateauand I can't even remember it was
the Zadoy, maybe I think it was,and we've been cycling for days
or whatever.
You find somewhere and where wecould have some food and we're
sat there eating away, and thenin walks some uh local big wig
officer, and he he looks at usand goes, You shouldn't be here
really, should you?
So Hmm.

SPEAKER_01 (32:18):
Were they nice about it when they took you put you on
the bus?

SPEAKER_00 (32:22):
They were.
They were they they they were.
But they they were were theynice, they were they were strict
about it, but they were there.

SPEAKER_01 (32:28):
They were Yeah, but you actually made it to the
source then.
Or did that get the way?

SPEAKER_00 (32:34):
And we then we then came back in again, um and we
And we were we were close to thesource, and at that time again
it was this is poor digitalthing, so we had old it was
actually old actually US AirForce maps of the region and
trying to find where we thoughtthe source was, and it started
snowing very heavily and anyway,just it was and our bikes were

(32:54):
beginning to fail, and so we wedecided to come back and to pull
out.
So so in a sense the expeditionwas a failure, and it's a great
thing I teach trying to teach mykids and others, it's okay to
fail, and it's not necessarilyabout getting to that end
destination, it's about whathappens en route, the the
laughs, the friendships, the thetears, the whatever.

SPEAKER_01 (33:12):
Yeah.
Did you have situations alongthe way where that were, I guess
what you would rank veryunpleasant with uh the people
that live there?

SPEAKER_00 (33:22):
No, not at all.
I think that my in my in all mytravels I've always been just
very taken by the the kindnessof strangers, the generosity
that you have, the hospitalityyou have, and I think that's my
overriding thing.
I I've sometimes done talks toschools and I'm often asked a
sort of similarish question,sort of like, have you ever
anybody ever harmed you?
And I said, Yeah, I've beenmugged.

(33:43):
And they'll sit up and look, andI said, Yeah, it was in London.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (33:50):
Yeah, it's uh I think that people that haven't
had the and that's a big part ofwhy I'm doing this podcast.
It's you know, we talk aboutlet's let's go do things, let's
get out there, let's connectwith people, let's make this
world feel smaller by creatingconnections.
I actually started the podcastwhen I was in my first trip to
Asia because it had alwaysseemed so far away.
I'd traveled a lot, but I hadn'tbeen to Asia because it seemed

(34:12):
so far away.
And what I realized was once Igot there, it's a long plane
flight, but it wasn't that faraway, in a sense.
These are just they're stillpeople, you know.
Obviously culturally verydifferent, but they're still
people.
We're closer than we'redifferent, I think.

SPEAKER_00 (34:27):
I I think that's so true.
I think that um it was years agoI was in Sudan, uh, I was on a
ferry up in the north, and uhthis when a man found out that I
was British, he's he started hedidn't get aggressive, but he
was accosting me about the Iraqwar.
And I had to explain to him andsaid, look, okay, I might have
been British, but I I didn'tvote for the then government,
and then I also marched inLondon against the war, and so

(34:48):
don't judge me because of mygovernment.
And I think people around theworld are the same, they don't
want to judge you because oftheir government.
And I think that when we when wetravel, we realize that despite
the differences of eitherlocation, religion, dress,
geography, what it is, that wewant for the same things.
That we want stability, that wewant education for our kids,
that we we care about the samethings, friends and family, and

(35:10):
we laugh about the same things.
Laughter is uh such an importantpart.

SPEAKER_01 (35:14):
Yeah, I uh it was on that that trip that I actually
was in Asia, and I remember Istayed at a hostel in Kuala
Lumpur, and we were up on thetop.
They had a big patio thing up onthe top of this big building,
and there were I was the oldest,you know.
I'm I'm I'm the older digitalnomad, but there's this group of

(35:35):
probably 15 people.
Every single one of them wasfrom a different country, and
we're sitting around in a ringof chairs, just like you would
at a college party, you know, inLondon or whatever.
But it's like you've got the guyfrom Saudi Arabia right here,
you've got the guy fromSingapore, the woman from
Ireland, you know, and thenthere's me from the US, and it
was and we were all so friendly,you know, and it was just like

(35:57):
the guy from Saudi was updancing, he wasn't drinking, but
he was up dancing with us, andyou know, he stepped away from
him at moment to go to hisprayer, came right back in, and
it was just such a funexperience.
And um, yeah, and it's like itdidn't really matter where any
of us were from.
And I enjoy that because uh, youknow, I'm from the US.
So talk about people maybejudging, you know, you know, me

(36:20):
on the country I come from orthe politics or whatever's going
on in the world.
But I I hardly ever run intothat.
I mean, not you know, and andthere's so many people that
won't leave the US becausethey're afraid that if they go
somewhere, they're gonna betreated poorly or they're gonna
be, you know, all these thingsare gonna happen because they're
from the US.
And I just I haven't seen that.

SPEAKER_00 (36:42):
I've never seen that.
I think we the the media prey onit.
The media give us these negativestories.
I don't know.
If you're lucky enough to travelto travel or to have traveled to
Iran, maybe not now, but uh thepeople are just so wonderfully
friendly.
I remember just a guy coming andsaid, Look, uh, do you want to
do you want a cup of coffee?
And he says, No, I don't want tobuy anything.

(37:02):
He said, No, no, just come andjust have a cup of coffee.
We just sat there and wechatted, and he had links to
England and the UK in differentways, and it was just a
fascinating hour just chattingaway with him.

SPEAKER_01 (37:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (37:11):
It's it's those those small little people
moments, people moments.

SPEAKER_01 (37:15):
Yeah, the the that if you're not going out and
having those moments, you don'tget it.
You're just living through thelens of whatever the news wants
to put in front of you.
When I was in Georgia on thislast trip, went out and did a
day tour thing, and there was acouple from Iran.
They lived in Tehran, and theywere just so sweet.
We had the most fascinatingconversation, and they invited
me to come down.

(37:36):
They wanted me to see it.
He sent me, that was like inAugust, September, and then for
Christmas, he sent me a notethrough WhatsApp.
Merry Christmas, Jason.
I hope you're doing well.
And you know, it's you youcreate these connections that
you you're never gonna get ifyou're sitting in Milwaukee,
Wisconsin, or Detroit orwhatever.
I mean, you'll have experiencesthere as well, I'm sure, but
it's uh it's pretty cool.

(37:57):
All right.
So you did this big expedition.
I want to figure out, I want tosee how it all ties in with what
you're doing now.
So you did that big expedition,and then did you continue tour
leading or what what did you doright after that?

SPEAKER_00 (38:11):
So uh after a while, as my now wife uh became a bit
frustrated with me spending somuch time overseas and followed
with ultimatum.

SPEAKER_01 (38:21):
Let's figure out, let's start with how you met her
before you're not sure we shouldgo there.
You went straight to theultimatum thing, but and here's
why I asked, because I alsorealize that working in tourism,
especially if you're a tourleader traveling around a lot,
you might meet a lot of people,but sometimes it's hard to meet
somebody and create a connectionwith them.
You don't tell us, you know, youdon't have to tell us too all
the details, but I'm intriguedby that.

SPEAKER_00 (38:41):
By by what how we met?

SPEAKER_01 (38:43):
Well, that you yeah, that you met.
You were living that life, youmet somebody, and then she said,
Okay, enough.
In your it's kind of weird.

SPEAKER_00 (38:51):
So we we we met through a friend uh and I just
come back from six months inChina.
I think she just came back fromshe's a teacher, just come back
from Mexico.
And yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (39:03):
But so she was so she was traveling and
adventurous.

SPEAKER_00 (39:08):
No, she's she likes traveling and she is
adventurous, but she's she'swell, she was a teacher, so for
many, many years.

SPEAKER_01 (39:15):
Yeah, all right, very, very cool.
So you guys so she said, Okay, Ithink um you don't need to be in
a different country every fewmonths, and so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (39:23):
So there was a company called there were two
there were two adverts that Ilooked for travel jobs.
One was with the Steps East, Imet with Nick in his flat in
London, and there were wonderfulUzbek carpets on the wall, there
were these Yemeni daggers, and Ithought, you know what, hell
what, if I can't be Peter Pan,I'll work for Peter Pan.
Um and Nick's Nick has thatcuriosity for travel, similar to

(39:47):
me, a lot of people and places,and and yeah, and there was a
big connection through.

SPEAKER_01 (39:52):
Was he is he already running tours?
Because you mentioned he startedSteps, Steps East because you
know, around the time of thefall of the Soviet Union.
Was he doing tours elsewhere,other type of stuff before that?

SPEAKER_00 (40:02):
No, I don't I don't know.
He wasn't he wasn't in trouble.
It was just something suddenlyto it was something a little bit
different for me.
Maybe the opportunity, the thecure curiosity to see what it
was like.
So, what was your first role inthe company?
Trying to sell holidays, andthey realized that I wasn't very
good at that.
And they they had another smallcompany called Discovery

(40:23):
Initiatives, whose strapline wastravel that supports
conservation.
And I think they were ahead ofthe time.
We worked a lot with the DonFossey Guerrilla Fund with
Global Tiger Patrol, withGalapagos Conservation Trust,
with the Orang and TangFoundation, and so we were
sending clients to differentparts of the world, sometimes
with conservationists, but therewere always monies were going

(40:43):
back to those differentagencies, and that was yeah,
that was one amazing timeworking for them.
Again, we were very pioneering,we were sort of one of the first
companies to go back into Rwandaat the time.
We went into DRC, into Gabon,the Congo.
So yeah, it was Alright.

SPEAKER_01 (40:58):
So what was it about?
You said you you didn't reallyenjoy or weren't weren't good at
the sales part.
So what was what was the hardpart for you when it comes to
that?

SPEAKER_00 (41:07):
That I I I told people how it was really, that I
wasn't there embellishingdifferent places or whatever.
I sort of, I don't know, I'm adoer rather than a talker, I
think.

SPEAKER_01 (41:16):
So fair enough.
So so how did that role work outfor you and what was the next
role?

SPEAKER_00 (41:22):
So it was quite short, but then they wanted me
to go and run the DiscoveryInitiatives, which was very
small, but to help them sort ofgrow and help them set up
different trips and tours andideas and stuff.
So yeah, and that was uh yeah,it's it was like being a in a
small travel startup that was alot of fun.

SPEAKER_01 (41:38):
Okay, so like product development operations
type of stuff.
Or how would you describe whatyou're doing?

SPEAKER_00 (41:44):
Yeah, that kind of stuff.
So we we set up new trips to goand swim with orcas in in the
fjords in Norway to um yeah,into Central African Republic,
to Tsangatzanger to see theforest elephant there.
It was, yeah, it was just thatwas a time of looking at maps
and going, okay, let's find outwhat's there or what species is
there, what can we do with that?
And that was like that was justwonderful.

SPEAKER_01 (42:05):
And presumably you were still traveling, maybe not
to the same level you were whenyou were a tour leader.
But um, did did this uh new newlifestyle work better for you
and your family?

SPEAKER_00 (42:16):
Yeah, well it did because we were all still
together.
There you go.
Congratulations.
That's that's great.
Yeah, you have to go andresearch different areas.
So there were sort of reccetrips and research trips where
you go off and uh and sometimesuh sometimes it's quite hard
especially if you're in thefirst sort of wave of people
operators going through into anarea.

(42:39):
So I remember going to Yemenback in two thousand and five to
Sukotra in Yemen and that wasvery difficult then.
I think that obviously now's notthe time to go to Socotra, but
early this year Sukotra wasbeginning to to change.
There were sort of more hotelsbeing built.

SPEAKER_01 (42:54):
Say the name of the place again.

SPEAKER_00 (42:56):
Socotra.
It's an island um off the coastof Yemen in the Red Sea.
It has a large amount ofendemism, so endemic uh so
there's 210 bird species there,nine of which are endemic, so
only found on the island.
There are 900 plant species, ofwhich 300 300 plants that are
found nowhere else in the world.

(43:17):
One of which is called thedragon blood tree.

SPEAKER_01 (43:21):
Do you have a favorite?
I I don't want to ask you yourfavorite place in the world.
Uh you can tell me if you want,but I I it's a weird, it's a
tough question that I havesometimes.
I don't know if you like thatquestion, but I am curious like
the type of trip.
If if you maybe I'll ask youthis way if you had to lead, if

(43:41):
you had to go back to tripleading, what kind of trips,
maybe by region or whatever, butwhat kind of trips would you
most want to do?

SPEAKER_00 (43:49):
Pioneer interests where you're going to somewhere
new or you I like breakingground in different places.
For me, it's not about where youit's not about the property I
stay in.
I think some camps in Africahave become so the the actual
tents or they become so big thatyou if there was a hippo outside
my tent, I wouldn't know.
I'm so far away from it.
And I don't like that.
I think that the I like placeswithout walls that are raw, so

(44:13):
when you hear that other roar,that the roar of the lion, it's
far more visceral.
So I like that that's what I'mI'm about.
I'm it's not about hardshipnecessarily.
I'm not it's not not not that,but I it's not about the
feathers and the pillow or thethe paint scheme on the walls.
That's not that's not about itfor me.

SPEAKER_01 (44:28):
So what I hear you saying is if you had choice
between running an interestingtrip, but running the same trip
week after week after week afterweek, or doing a different trip
every time, it sounds likeyou're the type, yeah, no, I
don't want to do the same thingover and over.
Um am I picking up on that?

SPEAKER_00 (44:47):
I think that's very yeah, very observant of you
that's a lot of people.
Well that's basically what yousaid.
I'm I'm pretty observant.
I I I like different I likedifference.
I like difference, yeah.
But there are places that I liketo go back to, and then there
are places that I haven't beento for a while that I definitely
want to go back to.
I think Pakistan is one of them.
I was there last year, but IBack in in the nineties, I was
in the Northwest Frontierprovince in Pakistan.

(45:08):
It's so that's still one of myfavourite places that I've been
to.
Just because the scenery is soepic, the people are so
wonderful, they're Ishmaeli,they're very, very relaxed, very
hospitable, generous people.
But I've got a very maybe uhidyllic sort of halcyonic image
of that.
And I'm sure it's different now,but it was it was then it was
wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 (45:27):
Yeah, very cool.
Is it challenging for because atsteps, you guys have you have
tour leaders working for you?
You mentioned you do mostlyFITs.
Uh kind of the that custom stuffare you doing lead trips as
well?

SPEAKER_00 (45:42):
So we do have some expert lead trips, yes.
They're normally I don't know,historian, broadcaster, not to
say archaeologist, but uh ifthey've got expertise on sort of
weaving of the culture ortextiles or whatever.
So they they normally have someexpertise that he or she brings
to the trip.
And then they also have localguides who know Tbilisi or
Kazbeggy, wherever it might bein Georgia.

(46:03):
So right.

SPEAKER_01 (46:04):
So if you had somebody that was a historian or
I don't know, um somebody with afollowing, I'm just gonna say
somebody with a following thathas an audience.
Photographers perfect perfectperfect example that that you
guys knew or they they reachedout to you and said, Hey, I'd
love to start leading sometrips, but I don't want to

(46:25):
handle the marketing, I don'twant to handle the operations.
I just I you know I've got anaudience, I'm happy to put the
trip in front of them, but Iwant you guys to handle all the
stuff and and set it up.
It sounds like you do that typeof stuff, right?

SPEAKER_00 (46:37):
We definitely do that, yeah.
The nuts and bolts and theinsurance and all of that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (46:41):
Yeah.
Because over the years I've I'vedealt with that a lot where
you've got people that justaspire to lead trips.
They don't necessarily want toget a job leading trips, they've
got people that, you know, Iworked in the fly fishing
business.
It was fly fishing travel.
So there were a lot of peoplethat owned fly shops, or they
were local guides that didreally well with their business,
and they wanted to go toPatagonia and you know, in the

(47:05):
what is our winter in the north,they want to go to Patagonia,
take a group of people withthem.
But they weren't, they didn'tnecessarily want to do all the
the work and the logistics andand manage all that stuff, so we
would set up a lot of trips forthem, which is um right.
And I just wanted to share, Iwant to share that because
anybody that's listening to thisthat's in a similar situation
ought to reach out to you guys.

SPEAKER_00 (47:24):
We were we're more than happy to speak to people.
And yeah, that that's whattrouble's about.
That's why I work in troubleabout the people you meet.
Not just necessarily in, I don'tknow, Uruguay or Bolivia or
wherever it might be, but it'sit's the yeah, the the the fly
fishermen, women, etc.
The people the guides we workwith, the I don't know, whether
it be uh safari guides tocultural guides in in Cusco,

(47:47):
wherever it might be.
Yeah, that we you meet wonderfulpeople.
So I gave a talk, I gave a talkthe other day that and somebody
came up to me, you you when youmentioned your guide, you always
mentioned their name.
And I said, Because I remembertheir names.
He said, Well, uh but you'vetraveled a lot, how do you do
that?
And I said, Because that that'sthat that's what it's it's
about, it's about people.

SPEAKER_01 (48:04):
So I often thought about you know just the
importance of connection and thereason that I enjoy traveling
and the reason I've wanted I'veworked in it and I've I've
enjoyed it so long is about theconnections.
Because I believe you could dropme at probably the most
beautiful place on the planet,and if I'm there by myself, I'm

(48:25):
gonna be pissed off.
I shouldn't say I'm just gonnabe like, what the f there's
nobody here to share it with.
That's just me.
I'm not saying everybody's likethat, but it's like if I see
something beautiful, I want toeither share it with a local
guide, another traveler, someonein my family, just somebody.
I just personally want to shareit with people.

(48:46):
And that's what honestly, that'swhy I like trip leading.
That's why I like taking groupsof people.
Um, because I I'm sharing itwith them and I'm sharing it
with the guides, and it's it'sjust such a such an important
thing that I I don't know.
What about you?
Are you able to enjoy stuff byyourself?

SPEAKER_00 (49:04):
Uh I I I do.
But I think you're right.
I think that that that sharedexperience is is much stronger.
And even whether it's somebodyelse uses a a different word to
describe something, or yeah, Ijust uh so I'm I'm happy either
way, but um but yeah, I thinktraveling with either friends,
family, or but I and when I'm Iwill normally always travel with

(49:26):
a guide.
Again, back to that point thatthat he or she will then give me
an insight or open a door orwhatever that that I'm not gonna
be able to to find on my phoneor on the internet or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 (49:38):
I remember I met this young lady in Bali.
I was out on m one of mywalkabouts, just generally
walking the direction I thoughtI should, and there was this
little gathering of streetvendors, and there was this
young woman there ordering somefood, and I had no idea what the
food was there, and I just shespoke a little English, so I was
asking her, like, what are youeating?

(49:58):
And tell me what this is andhelp me help me order some food.
So she helped me and describedwhat everything was, and I ended
up basically getting the samething she was eating, which of
course, because that's what wasgood.
And uh and she wanted pictures,we took pictures, and then um I
bought I bought her dinner, andshe's oh you don't have to.
I said, No, it's it's forguiding me.
You're my guide, you should be aguide.
And she just grinned ear to ear,and it was just so just having

(50:21):
that, whether it's an officialguide that you're paying or just
creating those those momentswith people, just asking them to
help you and explain things toyou, is so much fun for me.
Yeah, I just you know, because Imean I could probably now with
chat with AI, I could probablypull out my phone, take a
picture of the food cart, chatGPT would tell me what's on the
food cart, what I should order,what it's called.

(50:43):
But oh my gosh, how boring wouldthat be?
Anyway, so what else do you wantto share with our listeners
about about steps?
Exciting new things, new neckthe next steps that you're gonna
take.

SPEAKER_00 (50:53):
Just kidding, that's you know, I think that they're
there's a lot of information outthere on the internet, on AI,
but it still doesn't stand upagainst the expertise that the
the team have here in terms oftheir knowledge and also working
out and then they'll also tellyou what they're not order
takers, they're there to listento what clients want and what

(51:14):
clients think they want, andcertainly where they want to go,
but they're not order takers andwe'll come back and certainly
say, No, I think you think youshould think about this or or
that, or so I love that.

SPEAKER_01 (51:24):
What does the process for look like for you
guys?
If I go on your website and Ithink, oh, I want to take a
trip, it sounds like it's muchmore of a consultative,
consultative type of approach.
So do they go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 (51:38):
It it definitely is.
So yes, we the you can make makean inquiry through the website
if you want, but uh we willdefinitely want to speak to you
on the phone.
We won't do everything throughemail or whatever.
We want to speak to somebody andwe really want to understand
what what they want out of theirtrip.
It's not just going there tosort of tick off different
sites, it's like how can we addvalue for you?
And that's that's what we we do.

(51:58):
And if it's a bigger trip, wewould we would try and meet with
somebody as well.
Again, it's so much easier whenyou meet face to face.
We can't do it with all of ourclients, but when we do, we
again we yeah I don't know, youyou pick up little things that
you might not have done on aZoom call or whatever.
It's sort of that they'rethey're I don't know, six foot
five or something rather thanfive foot five, whatever it
might be.

SPEAKER_01 (52:16):
Yeah, you you're absolutely right.
And uh the the zoom call or thevideo call thing has become
easier, people are more likelyyou know to have access to that.
They they kind of have done it.
But I also know with technologytoo, some people are less and
less likely to want to havedirect contact.
I mean, I suspect there's somepeople that connect with you
guys.

(52:36):
Oh, we can we I'm really busy.
Can we just do this by email?
I don't really have time to do acall and and all that stuff.
Have you seen more resistance orless resistance to jumping on a
call in the last few years?

SPEAKER_00 (52:50):
I think possibly less.
I think that people understandthe value of it and uh and
especially now that you wherethe various AI devices, whatever
it is, will record theconversation and then give you a
transcript of it and say, right.
That's cool.
Yeah, these are the key fivethings that I took out from my
conversation with you.
Do you agree that you only wantrooms with with I don't know,
white walls or whatever it mightbe?

(53:11):
So yeah.
So yeah, so I I think that theclients like it, and also I
think that they in a way, in aworld that's increasingly
automated in different ways,that you're actually speaking to
somebody rather than to an AIgenerated whatever.
And I think that also yeah, theythey also realize that that the
team are not speaking, they'renot reading from a brochure or

(53:32):
from a screen.
They they know the stuff, and soit's coming, it's coming from
here, from the heart.
And they're also that they'renot all we're we're we're all
individuals here.
We're not we're not sort ofthere's not sort of one sort of
uh cookie-cutter travelconsultant.
They all have their littleidiosyncrasies, whatever and
that's that's that's why we'rein travel, that's why clients

(53:53):
come to them, because they'rethey're a little bit quirky and
different in different Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (53:57):
I I have a story in my head that some people are
reluctant to get on a callbecause uh in their regular life
and their regular businessdealings, it might be a lot of
sales calls.
Right?
So let's say they're a CEO of acompany and they're used to
getting people reaching out to,hey, let's get on a call,

(54:18):
discuss your website.
Hey, let's get on a disc on acall to discuss new light bulbs
for your buildings or whatever.
So they've got this kind ofknee-jerk reaction of, oh, I
don't want to get on a call, Idon't want sales call, sales
call, sales call, and then theydecide they want to go to
Africa, and maybe they need tokind of shift gears for a minute

(54:39):
and say, no, wait a minute, thisis one of those situations where
I do want to get on a callbecause it's not you guys
necessarily trying to quoteunquote sell them anything, it's
trying to create a good,memorable experience that works
for them.
Do you think that's just a storyin my head, or do you think that
does happen a little bit?

SPEAKER_00 (54:54):
I think that there are there are some who probably
are, because they do it all thetime for work, don't want to get
on a call, but then it's up toEleona or Chris, whoever it
might be upstairs, who againthrough their personality, look,
I think it'll be worth our whiledoing this.
And as soon as they get on thecall, it's it's not a sales
pitch.
They're not saying they'rethey're they're wanting to it's
a two-way thing, they're wantingto find out about the clients,

(55:15):
about what makes them tick, andand then the clients get it.

SPEAKER_01 (55:18):
And then will you will you flat out refuse to book
somebody that won't get on acall?
No, if they've got a lot ofmoney, no.
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (55:28):
Do you make them do you make them sign a waiver or
sign some sort of disclaimerthat says there are sometimes,
yes, where where something'sconducted over email or
whatever, but it it's it's somuch our preference to not have
that because it's harder for usto add value and to really
understand what the clientswant.
And I think that's why 60% ofour businesses repeat and 20% is

(55:50):
referral, because it's thatunderstanding that that that's
created.
It's not this, it's not anautomated sort of transaction,
it's it's about personality.

SPEAKER_01 (56:00):
I love it.
And I would I would go as far asto say, in my experiences
anyway, if somebody justabsolutely nope, I don't need to
get on a call.
I I know what I'm doing, this iswhat I want, just set it up for
me.
I would think that that personis the one most likely to give
you the slightly lower reviewthan what you're gonna like if
your average is five-starreviews and you get the

(56:22):
three-star review.
If I didn't even like if I'drecently dealt with maybe 10
groups and one of those groupssaid, No, I don't want to get on
a call, whatever.
And then a month later somethingpops in and says, Oh, you got a
three-star review.
If I had to guess which one itwould be, I would say it's
probably the one that wouldn'tget on a call with me.

(56:43):
I don't know.
What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 (56:45):
I I think there's something in that.
I think that also that theythey'd be the one who say, Well,
I don't like a hotel A, and it'swell, hang on, we told you to go
for hotel B, but you wantedhotel A and you wouldn't listen.

SPEAKER_01 (56:56):
So Yeah, so it's I mean, I think that most people
like yourselves, your team, anda lot of people that work in
this business really do careabout people having good
experiences.
So if you don't work in thebusiness, just believe that when
somebody says, Let's get on acall, in my opinion, if they say
let's get on a call, it'sbecause they want to be able to
see your face when they say, youknow, like, hey, tell me about

(57:18):
an experience, a travelexperience you had in the past
that didn't go well.
And what was it that went wrong?
And if I can see your face asyou're describing that story, I
can say, Oh, okay, maybe we needto shift gears and go a slightly
different direction here, youknow, to make a better
experience for them.

SPEAKER_00 (57:33):
So I don't know.
No, I th I I don't yeah, I don'twhat about your kids?

SPEAKER_01 (57:39):
Are your kids uh interested in travel?

SPEAKER_00 (57:41):
They are.
I think that they've been luckyand they've to travel to some of
the places they've been to.
Like a couple of years ago, uh Isuddenly announced we were going
to Dominica in the Caribbean,and I got two girls and a boy
that got they all got veryexcited by it.
And then my eldest doctor said,Whoa, daddy, you you're not one
for sitting on beaches, sowhat's this about?
I said, Oh, I forgot to tell youwe're gonna go swimming with

(58:02):
sperm whales in Dominica.
So, but they did have some timesitting around a pool because
you weren't on the the water thewhole time, but they they also
swam with with sperm whales,which is one of the most
incredible experiences to beswimming alongside the largest
predator in the world, some 15meters, five tons.

SPEAKER_01 (58:21):
It's just like that's uh that's very cool.
How old were your kids uh thefirst time you took them on a
trip?
Probably a different answer foreach one of them, I'm sure, but
yeah, a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 (58:30):
I so with my girls, they were about uh three and a
half and eighteen months when wewent to Sri Lanka.
So Sri Lanka's wonderful withchildren.
Sri Lankans are so good withkids.
Uh I think my wife regretted itthat the yeah, the younger one
didn't sleep much on the planeand she wasn't very happy when
when the pilot and we when thepilot announces a big

(58:52):
thunderstorm and she turnsaround to me, I told him we
should have gone to Wales.
Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (58:56):
So based on your experience.
What do you tell a parent thatlikes to travel, has kids on the
way?
Like, what do you do you thinkthere is a right age to start
traveling with them?
And anything before that is justkind of stressful for everybody?
Or is there a right age?

SPEAKER_00 (59:14):
So you've got a uh a good American client, they
travel with a young kid toGuyana.
Um, and and John in the officewho looks after Guyana was so
excited, he said, Look, I don'twe hey we don't do much business
there, but I've certainly hadnot somebody with a sort of uh
an 18-month-old kid.
Um and and they loved it.
So you can start from any age,whether the children will will

(59:35):
remember it is a differentissue.
Uh, there are some things that Iwould certainly wait with
children.
Certainly, if you're gonna gointo safari, I wouldn't do it
much before 12 because theyhaven't necessarily got the
patience just to sit and waitand watch, and they get they
their attention span's not longenough to be able to perhaps
appreciate the wildlife or waitfor the wildlife around them.
So there are some things likethat.

SPEAKER_01 (59:55):
I guess the thought there too is you know, I've I've
remember situations on safariwhere you're with other people
that are not necessarily in yourgroup.
It's one thing if you've got aprivate guide.
You know, if you've got aprivate guide in vehicle and
your kids are, you know, losinginterest, it's one thing, but
it's also bringing kids on thesesituations where you're
interacting with other guests oryou know, at the lodge or or

(01:00:16):
that type of thing, I'm sureplays into it.
Do you guys um do you do manyfamily trips with young kids?

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:23):
Yeah, so maybe a quarter of our business is
family, but not necessarily thethe young, young kids.
I think that for us it's morethe experience, sort of it's a
12 plus.
I think before that, kidsprobably want water, whether it
be the sea or a swimming pool orsomething, and we can do it, but
it's like there's only so muchvalue we can add to that.
Whereas ours is designing theright itinerary for the kids

(01:00:45):
when they're a bit older.
And they can do fun things,sleep out, they're hiking,
biking, whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:50):
Right, right.
And you and you mentionedearlier in the conversation we
discussed how steps kind of cameout of the fall of the Soviet
Union.
Is that still the bread andbutter?
I know you've expanded to do abunch of other things, but is
that still the bread and butter,or is it shifted away from that?

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:05):
It was.
Nobody's going to Russia at themoment, so for obvious reasons.
So but the the the stuns are uha big part of our business.
So but our biggest destinationsare probably India, Kenya, South
Africa, Ecuador, the Galapagos,Peru, Argentina, China, Japan.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:24):
All right.
Very cool.
Justin, we've we've discussed abunch of things uh about your
past, about steps, just kind ofphilosophical stuff, tips,
pointers, all that.
What did I forget to ask you?
What do you wish I would haveasked you so we can cover that
before we uh before we wrap up?
I want our listeners to get achance to hear whatever you
think is important that theyhear.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:44):
Well, I I think we've, as you said, we've
covered a lot, and thank you forthat.
It's been great speaking,talking with you.
I think that it's for me thatdon't be afraid to go outside
your comfort zone.
I think that's where the magichappens.
I think it's about that, andtravel is about breaking down
barriers and borders, and thatwe are we have so much in common
with other people around theworld.
There are some what wonderfuldifferences and then difference,

(01:02:05):
cultural differences or maybegenetic, genetic in different
ways.
But we're essentially we are weare the same people, and I think
that we and also justpositivity.
I think it's it's so easy inthis sometimes negative world,
and certainly the one that themedia portrays to us, that the
positivity and and smiling makesuch a difference.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well said.
Justin, thank you so much.
This has been a a lot of funconversation.
I learned a lot about you andsteps, and and uh we're gonna
have the link in the show notes.
So anybody that's uh that feelsa connection with Justin and his
team, through Justin, becausehe's the one that's here, um,
click on the link in the shownotes.

(01:02:46):
Go take a look at their website,they're doing a bunch of cool
stuff, and um you kind of have abetter feel for kind of what his
philosophy and thought processis, and I like that.
So Justin, thank you so much.
I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:56):
Jason, thank you very much.
Uh have fun in Bogota, and I seeyou traveling in a or meeting on
a bar in in Singapore wherewherever it is.
Sounds good.
Let's do it.
Take care.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:07):
Thanks, Justin.
I'll chat with you soon.
Thank you.