Adventure Travel with Nuno Santos Fernandes - Walking Mentorship - Adventure Travel Podcast - Big World Made Small

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (01:05):
Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of
the Big World Made Small podcastfor the Adventure Traveler.
So happy to have each and everyone of you back here with us
today, and also very excited tohave my guest today.
We've got Nuno Santos Fernandez.
He is mentor and partner withWalking Mentorship.
Nuno, welcome to the show.
Happy to have you here.

SPEAKER_00 (01:24):
Thank you, Jason.
Happy to be here.
Really an honor.

SPEAKER_02 (01:28):
It's going to be a fascinating conversation for me,
hopefully for you as well,because I get to I get to hear
your story and kind of figureout how you got from where you
were to where you are now.
Before we do that, I want togive our listeners kind of an
opportunity to understand, youknow, what is walking
mentorship?
We're going to get into it quitea bit later in the conversation,
but for now, kind of what's the30, 60 second elevator pitch on

(01:50):
what is walking mentorship?
What do you guys do?

SPEAKER_00 (01:53):
Well, very shortly we do personal or team
development programs that areelevated by walking in nature.
So basically we take people towalk in nature and use that as
co-facilitator for whateverwe're working on.

SPEAKER_02 (02:09):
Okay.
It sounds like you've practicedthat a few times, or or you've
just got it really clear in yourhead what you do.
So that's very cool.

SPEAKER_00 (02:15):
I think it's just clear.
But yes, I've I have said that afew times.

SPEAKER_02 (02:19):
I because seriously, like I didn't just ask that
question for the listeners.
I was, you know, I mean, you andI spoke a couple weeks ago, but
when we spoke, I said, don'ttell me too much now, because
when we come back and record, Iwant it to be spontaneous and I
want to be learning just as muchas our listeners at the same
time.
So thank you for that.
We're gonna get more into thedetails of what that's all
about.
Well, let me ask you thisthough.

(02:41):
Let I think where is sometimesan important question because I
speak with people around theworld.
Where are you located?
Where do you guys work?
And what should our listenersknow about that?

SPEAKER_00 (02:51):
Well, so both me and my business partner and the
founder of Walking Mentorship,we are based in Portugal, around
Lisbon, but actually we workthroughout Europe, uh a bit in
the US, and now we're alsoworking in Asia, in Japan.
And actually this year we'llhave for the first time a
program in Africa.
So we're kind of moving around.

SPEAKER_02 (03:13):
Now, are your typical guests people that live
locally and go on these tripswith you?
Or do you go like if you dosomething in Africa, will you
get people from all over theworld or in Japan?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (03:26):
Mostly they come from several different places.
I would say uh uh a largepercentage from Europe and the
US, I would say, but then SouthAmerica, Asia, Australia, and
Africa, everywhere, really.

SPEAKER_02 (03:38):
Okay.
All right, very cool.
Help me understand thedifference between like you
didn't show up and say, Jason,we're a trekking company.
So help me understand thedifference between a trekking
company and walking mentorship.

SPEAKER_00 (03:52):
Well, that's fundamental for us.
Actually, one of the things wesometimes struggle to make clear
to our potential clients.
We don't organize walks, wedon't organize trekking
expeditions, we organizeself-development or team
development programs.
The fact that they are, as Imentioned, elevated or

(04:15):
facilitated while walking innature, it's by design, it's
intentional and it isfundamental to the process.
But the goal is not to take youon a nice hike or a nice trek.
It's to take you on an innertravel, an inner voyage, let's
say where the the outside ishelping you to go through that

(04:38):
transformation process.
But it's about your internaltrip, your internal flight,
let's say, more than yourexternal walk.

SPEAKER_02 (04:47):
I I love that concept.
And it as I listened to you saythat it you know, I think of
things like you know climbingMount Kilimanjaro is a is a
personal thing that's about overyou know overcoming things and
pushing yourself and uh and allthat.
So I think that some of thosethings can just happen by just

(05:07):
people doing uh uh big physical,big physical activities.
But I'm curious with what you'redoing, uh is there an element of
pushing themselves?
Like so somebody listening tothis is like, okay, I'm gonna go
work on my internal demonsbecause Nuno's gonna have me
hiking, you know, 25 miles a dayin the sleet and the rain and

(05:28):
and all that stuff, or is it notquite that hardcore?
How would you describe it?

SPEAKER_00 (05:32):
So maybe starting by the end, we don't uh we don't
see the walking or the nature asextreme.
We see them as help, asfacilitators, as I mentioned.
So we don't really go for veryextreme things and we try to
adjust always to the to theparticipants' level.
So, you know, it's good to go abit off your comfort zone, but

(05:56):
not into survival mode, becausethen it kind of makes it hard to
reflect.
I would say the big difference,and let's say the the what we
try to do really in a in adeliberate way is to create the
conditions that that process,which naturally I think will
happen whenever you go on a kindof a pilgrimage or a long walk

(06:18):
or climbing Kilimanjar, whateverthat is, naturally you will go
into a reflective mode.
I mean, the fact that there area lot of studies these days
about the impacts of walking innature, probably that's very
much related to our own nature.
I mean, we've been in thisplanet for 300,000 years, and

(06:38):
we've been walking the vastmajority of that time.
We've domesticated horses 10,000years ago, so the the the
majority of the time we werewalking, not doing anything
else.
Not driving, not riding, not youknow, not anything, just
walking.
So walking and walking innature, obviously, which is our
natural environment, would bethe the typical behavior of a

(07:01):
human for the vast majority ofour existence.
So just being there in thatnatural environment kind of
creates the ideal conditions fora good reflective mode, a good
moment to really think deeply.
And what we try to do is tocreate a structure of prompts
and also of let's say uh amedium, a support, where you are

(07:25):
kind of guided in thatreflection so that you create a
structure, a flow, and also thatyou have the opportunity to
register, you know, to take noteof what are the highlights, the
insights, the the clarities thatyou gain throughout that walk.
And that way you really take thebest out of that process.
Whereas if you just do the walk,you will probably get clarity on

(07:49):
many things, but most likely itwill be either scattered or
might in the end be lost becauseyou just, you know, you go back
home, back to your day-to-daylife, and everything is left
behind.
Whereas we always try to helpyou create an action plan to
actually bring the decisions,the clarity, the insight that

(08:10):
you have, and the decisions thatyou've made into your future,
bring them to an action plan andbring them to your life the next
day.
So when you go back home, takeit with you and start at least
moving, even if it's just alittle step a day in the
direction that you want to go.

SPEAKER_02 (08:27):
I love it.
Um, you know, and as I waslistening to you, uh you said,
well, we've been walkingforever.
And yes, I get the point you'resaying.
And it also came up to me that,well, but we've kind of gotten
away from that as a society.
So yes, we still have theability to walk.
There's still benefits ofwalking, but I suspect that
maybe our listeners are a littlebit more active than the

(08:48):
average, uh, the average personout there.
But uh, yeah, there's I suspecta lot of your clients haven't
really gone on a walk in awhile, or at least, you know, or
they're being purposeful aboutjoining one of your programs
because they know that theyhaven't been either on a walk or
in nature for quite a while.
Is that is that accurate?
Do you feel like you get a lotof people that are like, I know

(09:08):
I need to get out and startmoving, I know that I need to
get out and connect with myselfand nature as opposed to doom
scrolling on my phone, that typeof thing.

SPEAKER_00 (09:17):
Yeah, right.
Yeah, that that does happenquite a lot, and uh especially
in our immersive programs, whichare let's say our flagship
program, a week-long program,where we go on these pilgrimages
or long hikes, typically whichare group programs where people
join.
So the groups are just naturallyformed, people just join the uh
random group, and um and thosepeople are usually quite

(09:40):
intentional and quite deliberateabout that.
Let's say they help it, kind ofjoins the several benefits.
So you go to a beautifuldestination that you like, you
go for a walk, which probablyyou know it's good for you, and
you're gonna reflect on yourlife and probably come up with a
better action plan to improveyour life.
So it builds on on the three,let's say, the three levels.

(10:02):
But when we do corporateprograms where people, although
we are very clear that it shouldalways be a voluntary activity,
you should never mandate youremployees to join.
Yeah, that's it.
That never happens.
Never happens ever, ever.

SPEAKER_02 (10:18):
I've worked in the corporate world.
I remember volunteer, I thinkthey call it.
You're volunteering to do it,but you're told that that you're
gonna volunteer.
Yeah, I remember.

SPEAKER_00 (10:28):
Well, we we have a joke in Portuguese which is the
father who tells to his son, Mydear son, whether you like it or
not, you're gonna be a volunteerfirefighter.
So Okay.
It's kind of, you know, butwell, we are still insistent and
we really try to make that clearthat it should be a volunteer

(10:49):
activity, but still there aremany ways where people will not
feel comfortable to say, no, I'mnot joining a team-building
activity, and of course weunderstand that.

SPEAKER_02 (10:59):
Well, let me let me just while we're there, because
it's kind of a fascinating I'veI'm envisioning it.
I was I spent four and a halfyears in the army, so I got
volunteered a lot.
And I didn't have a choice.
But if somebody shows up on acorporate group, have you had
people kind of pull you aside,or is it just obvious that they
didn't really want to be there?

(11:19):
And um, what is I don't want youto necessarily give away your
secrets, but like what do you doin that situation where someone
shows up corporate group?
I don't really want to be here.
I don't know what I just want toknow how you handled that.

SPEAKER_00 (11:33):
Let's say that we've never had anyone, as far as I
remember, saying they don't wantto be here.
Usually they come up with asudden disease or sprain or
something.
But I would say the mostchallenging situation we've had
was on a day uh corporateprogram, we specifically told,
well, have weather gear withyou, have rain protection

(11:54):
because it's gonna rain the fullday.
And a lady came with high heelsand you know, totally unprepared
for so she got soaked on thefirst five minutes and basically
she had to go back into the carbecause obviously it was
impossible for her to walk withus.
She planned that very well,didn't she?
Well, if that's what she wanted,you know.

(12:17):
If you want, you find a way.
If you don't want, you find anexcuse.

SPEAKER_02 (12:21):
So in the end, there's a lot we don't want to
make this sound like it'storture, because I'm sure maybe
some of your future clientsmight be listening to this.
So someone in a corporate HRdepartment, you know, thinking
about doing a team buildingactivity.
We don't want to make it soundlike it's horrible.
But I suspect you've also hadpeople at the end of the
experience that either you justkind of intuitively knew maybe

(12:43):
didn't really want to do it orweren't that excited about it,
but then you saw a shift in themand you and because that's the
idea of doing this stuff, right?

SPEAKER_00 (12:50):
Yes.
Well, I I would say um I I thinkas in everything, some people
will enjoy it more than others,and some people will take more
benefit than others.
And it's always a very personaljourney, even if it's a team
building um process, then eachperson is uh a person.
But um usually people in theend, well, they they get the
kick from the the the all theendorphins and all the natural

(13:14):
processes that go inside.
So usually people get happy withthat.
That's a natural process ourbodies are designed to generate,
so that always helps.
But also in most cases, I can Ican remember as you were asking
the question, I can remember acase of a participant.
He was I mean, if you ask me, Iwould say he was hating the

(13:39):
program the whole week.
Honestly, I was sorry for theguy.
I thought this guy is having theworst week of his life.
I mean, he he got into a fistfight into with some random guy,
you know, that had nothing to dowith the group.
He got lost, he got sick, youknow, he got you know a cold and

(13:59):
and was you know, he was havinga horrible, in my opinion, a
horrible time.
And interestingly enough,spontaneously without any prompt
from our side, he reached outafter two years saying I want to
say thank you because you gaveme one of the best weeks of my

(14:20):
life.
Wow.
So I don't in his case, Iactually thought it was a bit of
a torture.
For most people, our programprograms are really very
enjoyable, and I mean we don'twalk 25 miles a day.
We don't like to talk aboutmiles, actually, we don't like
to put the focus there becausewhat we try to do very honestly
is to adjust to give yousufficient challenge physically

(14:44):
to make it you know kick in, tomake it be impactful, but not
really make it so hard that it'syou know that you're thankful
you suffering that you'realready, you know.
Like like for instance, westrongly encourage people to
bring their own backpacks.
Actually, we we use that as ametaphor for life.
If you put too little inside,you will miss things, but if you

(15:07):
put too many things inside,you'll probably be overburdened.
So it's kind of a good way tothink about life and to
understand that we need far lessthan we usually think.
But then if people have a backproblem or for some reason
they're suffering, of course, wewe find alternatives and we
find, you know, uh baggagetrends or whatever.

(15:29):
So this is always to createconditions that you are in the
best possible uh situation toreflect about your life, to gain
clarity about where you are,your reality map, what you want
to really improve into your foodfuture.
So when you look into thefuture, you gain perspective
into that future, and you canreally think where you want to

(15:52):
have a better life in in thedoesn't matter if it's six
months, one year, three years,we we usually say, Well, don't
go beyond one year becausethat's usually science fiction,
because we don't know what'sgonna happen.
But anyway, if you startplanning, if you start at least
thinking, well, I I want to uhyou know be fitter, sleeping
better, having a betterrelationship with my kids,

(16:14):
having a better work-lifebalance, whatever that is.
And if you start, you know, yougain clarity on that, you you
are very specific, you create uhan action plan, whatever that
might be, you need to becreative there.
And then when you look back andyou see where you were, and then
you see where you got, and yousee how much life can change by

(16:37):
little incremental changes, justlike walking.
One step at a time, right?
One step at a time.
All right.
So so you know it's it's allthere.
It's all there.
It's kind of kind of flowsnaturally into it.

SPEAKER_02 (16:49):
I think I want to address um one thing that I've
heard from a lot of operatorsthat do tracks and you know,
things that are kind of morephysically challenged, whether
that's bicycling or skiing orwhatever.
A common thing that I hear ispeople and even from guests, you
know, I've worked with a lot ofguests in the past.
And there's that concern about,well, what if I'm the slowest

(17:10):
one?
Right.
I think a lot of people don'twant to be the one slowing down
the group.
And I think that comes up a lot.
I think you get a group of 12people, 10 of them are coming
into this thinking, I don't wantto slow down the group.
And obviously, you know, so howdo you manage that?
How do you address that witheither with a corporate person
that's thinking about settingsomething up or a a client,

(17:31):
potential client that's thinkingabout actually I don't even like
client, a potential participant,whatever you want?
Participant, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (17:38):
That's how we call them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um well that's that's a veryinteresting question, actually,
Jason, and thank you.
Our programs, all our programs,from two-hour programs to a full
week or three months programs,they all go through four major
moments.
And interestingly enough, thefirst one is slow down.

(18:00):
So the first thing we ask ofpeople is really to slow down.
So whenever you say, Oh, I don'twant to be the slowest, well,
the first thing we're gonna askof you is to be the slowest,
please slow down.
I'm happy I asked this question.
People need to hear this.
You know, because we are overlyobsessed with efficiency and
productivity, and many of themost important things in life

(18:23):
are not about being fast orproductive or efficient, but
going deep, going, you know,fully, being present, and that
requires you to slow down.
And you know, we were notdesigned to drive cars at 200 uh
kilometers per hour or flyingplanes at whatever.

(18:43):
We were designed to walk at Imean two or three miles per
hour.
That's it.

SPEAKER_02 (18:49):
That's right, because you were out you were
looking for berries or nuts orexactly game or something like
that.
And if you walk too fast, youprobably dismiss everything,
right?
You just yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (18:59):
Oh, yeah, I'm starting to see how this is a
good idea.
We don't we really don'tencourage people to try to be
fast, uh on the contrary, and weeven do the deliberate exercise,
which is now try to walk as slowas you can over there.
People really struggle withthat, yeah.
But it kind of changes the focusfrom how can how can I not be
the slowest to am I being thefastest?

(19:21):
So I need to slow down, I needto pace myself.
So but anyway, I will take justthe opportunity to say so.
We always go through these fourmoments, and the first one is
slow down, and the second one isreconnect, and again, reconnect,
reconnect with yourself, withyour speed, with whatever feels
right for you.
We always say the right pace isyour pace.

(19:42):
So don't force yourself into adifferent pace.
And when you invite people toreflect, and actually you invite
them either to have individualreflection, so walking on their
own and reflecting aboutwhatever the prompt is there, or
you invite them to have aconversation with another
participant about or or or oneof the mentors, it rotates, it

(20:06):
goes through everyone.
When you start thinking deeply,usually you don't walk very
fast, you start slowing downnaturally.
So again, you kind of take thefocus out of that.
Third moment is gainperspective.
So look into the future, lookinto the future you would like
to have, not just any future ornot what's gonna happen, but
actually, if I can think aboutmy future, if I can think of

(20:29):
myself in one year, where do Iwant to be?
What are the the meaningfulthings that I really want to
make sure are gonna be there inone year?
So, how I want the relationshipwith my kids to be, how I want
the relationship with my wife,or my parents, or my boss, my
colleagues, the people workingwith me.
You know, do I want my health tobe?

(20:51):
Where do I want to live?
My planning, and and by lookinginto the future again, you stop
thinking about moving very fastbecause you're just trying to
gain perspective.
So you want to be clear aboutwhere where you're looking,
you're not getting there yet.
So only the last moment, whichis take action, invites you to
actually design an action planto move from where you are from

(21:13):
your reality map today to thatdesired future.
Now in order to do that, again,you cannot be rushing.
You need to start step by stepfrom where you are now, and then
you need to move really inincremental, and we are very
clear about this.
You need to usually the bigchanges don't come from huge

(21:34):
things you're gonna change inyour life, they come from the
small things you change everyday and you keep going.
And so it's always about thisconsistency, this more endurance
than intensity.
And this kind of flowsnaturally.
Of course, for some people thisis extremely challenging, and

(21:55):
for many people these days, thisis a big challenge.
But but it is the design of ourprogram.
So it's maybe that's wellactually interesting insight
you're giving me that probablybecause we're going a bit
against the current, it might beone of the things that really
helps people to gain claritybecause it kind of shifts the
way you're looking at life,right?

(22:16):
Not not the usual rush rush.

SPEAKER_02 (22:19):
I love that response because you you nail it like
almost to the point I'mimagining saying, okay, look,
the problem isn't there's notgonna be no problem with you
being the slowest.
No, we're gonna work on makingsure you're not the fastest.
Yeah.
And that's gonna ease a lot ofpeople's concerns because
they're like, okay, I don't haveto worry about being you know,
the guy, you know, three milesbehind everybody else, uh, you

(22:42):
know, yeah, with blisters on myfeet, thinking, Oh my gosh, I'm
gonna miss dinner andeverybody's gonna be upset with
me.

SPEAKER_00 (22:48):
It's not never happened.
Never happened.
Um actually with many groupswe've had people walking very
slow, and it's actually an intan interesting also awareness,
which is walking slower in theend uses more energy than
walking faster because you endup having Having more time
active because if you're walkingthe same distance, if you take

(23:09):
longer, you're gonna be upcarrying your backpack or at the
very least your own weight forlonger if you're walking slower.
So if you're walking at yournatural steady pace, you're
gonna get there faster, and it'sactually less demanding.
But for some people, it's reallyimportant to take longer because
they really need to go throughthe process.
And so we just allow for that.

(23:29):
We we don't fight against that.
And if for some reason someoneis really struggling, and and
you mentioned blisters, usuallywith good preparation.
Well, and preparation, it's notnothing extreme.
You don't need to prepare monthsin advance, it's just that you
need to take care about yourgear and you need to do a little
bit of preparation.
Make sure you see we got hercomfortable.

(23:51):
Make sure they are comfortableand worn, so they're not brand
new.
It's not a good idea to bringbrand new, and make sure your
socks are good and you keepchanging your socks not to get
your feet soggy and wet and hot,because that's usually where
blisters happen.
So you prevent blisters most ofthe time, and they don't happen
for most people.

SPEAKER_01 (24:12):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (24:13):
But then, I mean again, it's a it's a process of
the main thing is the reflectionprocess.
So then we always have alsoalternatives.
This is not about punishingpeople or getting them
suffering, you know, and andgoing through pain.
It's it's about sometimes theytur the internal pains, those

(24:33):
are the ones you really have togo through.

SPEAKER_02 (24:35):
And those can be tough, but because we we spend
so much time avoiding thingswith phones or alcohol or really
any, you know, I could lip.
So many things, yeah.
So many things.
When you just I don't want I'mnot oversimplifying it about
what I you know, what comes intomy mind, when you're just kind
of out having a walk and youdon't have those things, and you

(24:56):
just kind of have your thoughts,especially if you guys are
prompting and and providing, youknow, I guess prompting, I'm
just gonna say that.
Uh something else interestingthough when I was listening to
you.
I was like, it occurs to me thatwhen I I walk a lot.
I travel alone, I don't evenhave a car, everything I own is
in my suitcase.
So I tend to just walk aroundcities a lot, whether it's to go

(25:18):
to the bank or coffee shop orwhatever.
But what I've noticed is I tendto walk pretty quick.
And then in those moments whereI've got a lot of things in my
mind, I actually tend to like ifit's important, I I've noticed
that I do slow down.
It's like, you know, some likeif I've if I need to work
something out, if I'm thinkingabout something, I just find
myself just kind of justwandering aimlessly with no

(25:42):
like, you know, and slowingdown.
And it feels like it worksbetter for me.
But I'm I suspect I would butI've never thought about it.
Uh it just kind of happens.
So you probably need to helppeople do that, it sounds like
to slow down a little bit.
You know, you said another thingthat came up is I know that like
in acting where people need tolearn scripts or not even

(26:04):
necessarily learn the words, butactually internalize the
scripts.
You know, whether they're asalesperson trying to
internalize scripts or an actoror whatever, it's really
important to move the body.
You know, I've been through afew things where they say, you
know, don't just sit on thecouch and read the script over
and over.
You know, get out, walk around,move around, and that movement

(26:26):
helps somehow helps the body andthe brain just kind of
internalize those things.
And I've noticed I can learnthings so much faster if I'm
just walking around doing them.
So it sounds like it's basicallythe same what you guys have
figured out.

SPEAKER_00 (26:40):
Definitely.
I mean, yeah, well, we didn't wedidn't figure it out, we were
using it, but it's uh, you know,there's the the expression
solvitura ambulando, so solve itby walking.

SPEAKER_01 (26:51):
Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 (26:51):
And uh and many, many um thinkers, philosophers
use walking to to think and tomake and to gain clarity.
And actually it's these days youhave a lot of science that can
demonstrate the benefits of andactually just standing up and
walking improves your attention.
I think it's it's staggering,but uh I'm gonna say 30%, but I

(27:13):
actually think it's much morethan that.
But even 30%, it's huge, right?
So very simple things reallyhave a huge impact in in the way
our brain functions.
And for me, this this is notscience now, this is my opinion,
okay?
But for me, that's because thatwas our natural behavior as a
species.
So this thing of sitting atdesks, it's very new.

(27:35):
It's very new.
I mean, even if you just go toour grandparents' generation,
for most people, they would haveactive jobs, they would be
moving around, they wouldn't besitting at a desk.
For most people, there would bealready a few, well, maybe 20,
30 percent, would be sitting atdesks, but the majority would be
walking.
So this idea that everyone issitting in front of a computer

(27:57):
working, this is just, you know,we're learning how to do this,
and I don't I have doubts it isthe best for us, at least for
now.
I I don't know about the future.

SPEAKER_02 (28:07):
I hear what you're saying, and you know, it's not
it all kind of just makes senseif you think about it.
Because like I'm thinking oflike, well, if I want to connect
with my kid, what's the best wayto connect with my kid?
That's to go for a walk.
It's like I think most peoplelistening to this would be like,
oh yeah, that makes sense.
Like, because even you know,playing video games, yeah.

(28:27):
Does that does your kid want toplay video games with you?
Yeah, there's a good chance theyprobably do.
But it's when you set aside allthat stuff and go for a walk.
That's when, like, I know withmy son, because he's traveled
with me quite a bit, we've spenta lot of time walking around in
in interesting places.
And that's where he startssharing stories that I've never
heard.
You know, he's like, Oh, dad, doyou remember that one time?

(28:47):
And I'm like, Yeah, and he said,Well, I didn't tell you, but
this is what I did.
I did something bad, you know.
And I'm like, but I feel like Iwant to tell you.
I'm like, okay, great.
Let's go.
And those things come upgenerally when we're walking.
And um, and I know likerelationship therapists will
say, go for a walk with yourspouse.
Like, one of the best things youcould probably do is go for a

(29:08):
you know, half-hour walk afterdinner with your spouse every
evening to yeah, it makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 (29:13):
I can testify to that.
I don't have the science to backthis up, but actually, I well,
here's the challenge if someresearcher wants to pick this
up, think that just as anhypothesis, the fact that we're
that whenever you're walkingwith someone else, you already
agreed on something, which iswalking in the same direction at
the same speed.
You're already agreeing onsomething.

(29:34):
Kind of, I don't know, I don'tknow what it is, but it's much
easier to get in sync whenyou're when you're walking with
someone and sync, you know,mentally to to get into the same
thought process, the same rhythmand the same openness.
There are there are a number ofagain, science does have a lot
of information to give us aboutthat, but when we are walking

(29:57):
with with a wide horizon, our umfocus turns from the closed
focus, so the focused on a uhspecific target, to a more wide
awareness of reality.
And that helps us feel much morerelaxed because that means we're
safe, everything is good.
I can see my horizon, and thereisn't a threat, and I'm relaxed.

(30:18):
Because if a threat comes up, Iwill immediately focus, and so
that will tell my brain I needto be attentive and ready to
react.

SPEAKER_02 (30:26):
Which is not a good state for problem solving or
futurizing.

SPEAKER_00 (30:34):
And by the way, for well-being for your health
system, because we're notsupposed to be stressed 24-7,
right?
Stress is a response, healthyresponse, to a threat, to real
or potential threat.
So if you need to react to achallenge, then you stress can
be helpful.
But it was not we were notdesigned to have stress on a

(30:58):
permanent basis.
And the fact that we arepermanently focusing is telling
your brain, be on the alert,there is something, you know,
there is something importanthere.
So it's not and and theinteresting thing is that when
you go into that more relaxed,more open, wide vision uh state
of mind, it's not that you'reless productive or less able to

(31:21):
think.
You just think in a more relaxedand more open way.
It's actually when most of themost productive and most
innovative thinking comes from.
It's not from the focus-drivenWell, you know that the writer's
block.
If the writer comes to thecomputer and just stares at the
computer, nothing seems to comeup, and then he just goes out

(31:42):
for a walk and suddenly allthese ideas come into his mind.
We we know all these things, andand just going back a bit to
what you mentioned before, wewell, we we didn't find anything
out, we didn't create anythingnew.
Actually, people have been goingon pilgrimages, on long walks,
or on initial walks, uh onwalkabouts.
I mean, this is something thatexists in human cultures

(32:06):
throughout the globe.

SPEAKER_02 (32:10):
And though I want to acknowledge when I say you
figured it out, you you figuredout a way to to help people, you
know, or to support people in intheir journeys and and do it as
something meaningful, as opposedto just sitting in a room
thinking about it.
Yep, yep, it's pretty normal,that's how things should be, but
not doing anything with it.
You guys did something with it,you created an interesting um

(32:32):
well, thank you.
Yes, you know, an interestingprogram.
Yeah, it's difficult.
I also because I'd heard at somepoint in the past how it's like
better to like if you're havinga conf not a I shouldn't say
conflict.
Let's say you want to have a animportant conversation with your
partner.
They say, you know, youshouldn't sit across the table
from each other face to face isnot necessarily a good way to

(32:54):
work things out.
And I've heard, you know, ifit's gotta be go for a walk
would be obviously theappropriate thing to discuss.
But even if it's even they saylike in a car, sometimes you can
have more meaningfulconversations in a car because
you're sitting side by side asopposed to, you know, face to
face, it's a it's a little youfeel a little safer because it's
not maybe as intimidating andpressure field.

(33:17):
Whereas obviously taking a walkis a side-by-side thing.
But also I'm just curious like Ijust got this other idea in my
head.
I suspect that if you go back intime, you know, we talked about
people walking around.
And I suspect if you're walkingthrough the savannah in Africa
by yourself, you're probably ona little bit more heightened
state of alert.

(33:38):
Because you're completelyresponsible for catching and
seeing everything that might bea danger.
Whereas I imagine if you'rewalking with a group of people
or maybe at least even one otherperson, it probably provides a
sense of safety.
Subconsciously, do you think?
Is this something you've thoughtof?
Probably, or I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 (33:55):
Of course, we are no, no, no.
I think you're you're right.
I think we are we are uh asocial species.
I mean, if you really thinkabout human beings, the one
thing that has allowed us toprosper and to develop is our
capacity to cooperate and toactually be with each other and
collaborate with each other.

(34:16):
So definitely the fact that weare with a group of people gives
us safety.
The fact that we are even withjust another person, it will
also help us to feel safe and tofeel more relaxed.
Um, and I think actually thatwhen you when you just to
connect to that idea, when yougo to that open view, so that

(34:38):
wide view, more relaxed, it isnot less attemptive.
It is scanning for potentialdangers.
It's just that it's telling usI'm scanning and I'm not finding
dangers.
So you know, so that that feelssafe because you're you're
aware, you're attentive, you'renot disconnected, you're
actually paying attention, butyou're just paying attention and

(35:00):
you're letting your let's saythe the back office is working
on making sure everything isfine, and he's he's just telling
you it's fine, there's noproblem coming.
And if some problem will come,then it will tell you, and then
you will be at the end of theday.

SPEAKER_02 (35:14):
Shift in shift into a different different mindset.
Do you guys take because Isuspect, and I think I even kind
of heard you say it, there'smoments for contemplation where
maybe somebody in maybe yourprompt is to walk alone.
I don't know, to walk alone, tobe with yourself, and then
there's other moments where itmakes sense to to maybe connect

(35:35):
with somebody else, whether it'sa mentor, somebody else in the
group.
So is that right?
It sounds like you guys areconscious about there's alone
time and then there's togethertime.
And because there's benefits toboth, right?

SPEAKER_00 (35:45):
Definitely.
So essentially we have groupmoments where the whole group is
together, and there is that canbe where we give a briefing
which covers basic things likeokay, we will start walking in
five minutes and we will bewalking on a longer, let's say
we will have to walk for tenminutes along a road, so please

(36:05):
be care be attentive of cars andyou know.
But then it invites you for aprompt.
And usually at the slowdownstep, as I already referred at
the beginning, we might ask youto connect to very simple
things.
So try to pay attention to whatyou can hear, or pay attention
to what you can see, what youcan smell, how the ground

(36:27):
beneath your feet feels, andconnecting you to your body and
asking you to be attentive tothat really helps you to slow
down, obviously, which is thegoal.
But also to be present, to befully aware of your body and of
where you are, and kind of takethe attention a little bit away
from the usual worries,problems, concerns, stresses of

(36:52):
life, and just focus on thatmoment being present there,
being aware.
And that just by itself givesyou a huge relief if you really
go into that.
That is something that you willdo alone, of course.
It's it does make sense to to doin prayers.
But then let's say, okay, if youthink a little bit about let's

(37:12):
say by the end of the program,you're thinking of your action
plan.
And one of the things we invitepeople to do is when they they
decide on some actions toidentify what are challenges and
solutions.
Because typically our greatestenemies are ourselves.
So when you look back at yourlife, if you look, there will be

(37:34):
patterns, and usually the thesum of that.
You can try to point the finger,but probably you need to point
it in to you.

SPEAKER_02 (37:45):
I remember a phrase it's like, wherever you go,
there you are.
Exactly.
So you know, for people thattend to run away from things,
their problems tend to followthem.

unknown (37:53):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (37:54):
So so as we invite people to do this, you think
about imagine for me, I hategoing to the gym.
I want to be fit, I want to beto you know, preserve my
physical capacity and all that,but I hate going to the gym.
It's just horrible.
So, and I know I've I mean I'vebeen one of those perfect gym
clients which pay every monthand never goes there.

SPEAKER_02 (38:16):
So I don't want to be and won't and won't like
withdraw their plan, they'llkeep paying monthly because if I
cancel my plan, well then I'm abad person and I can't follow
through, so I'm just gonna keeppaying.
Next month.

SPEAKER_00 (38:28):
But so so if that that wasn't helping me, that was
not working for me.
Imagine if I'm going through I'mhaving this, so I'm aware of
this challenge.
I I know myself, I know I canenroll, and then oh sorry,
there's a cat jumping here onthe table.
So it was not supposed to behere, but it's okay.
So imagine I'm going throughthis and I'm saying, look, I'm

(38:49):
really I don't know what to dobecause I've I've enrolled the
gym, I've I've tried to do it, Iput it in my agenda, but then
you know I just don't do it.
And if I have this conversationwith someone else, very likely
that that person will give willgive me something obvious and
say, Well, why don't you get apersonal trainer that goes to

(39:09):
your home?
It might feel more expensive,but actually, if you actually do
the sports, do the activity,it's much cheaper than paying
for not doing, you know.
So having a conversation withsomeone else can be very
helpful.
And I'm giving you kind of thisanecdotal example, but in
reality it's more than that,because whenever you put your

(39:32):
thoughts into words, you areforced to organize them.
So if I have to formulatesomething to convey to you, I
need to organize it and put itout in a clear, perceivable way.
And that's it.
You're like, so shoot.

(39:53):
Yeah, and sometimes it's alreadythere, and you're you're you're
speaking it out and you're ah, Isee.
But then there is this magicthing, which is if the other
person is listening deeply, twothings can happen.
One thing is the person islistening to me, but actually
will be seeing herself in whatI'm saying, because many things

(40:16):
we're all humans, you know,we're we all have the same
weaknesses or similar ones atleast.
But then there's something elsewhich I can just mirror it back
to you, and I can say, Well, didyou say you're paying to the gym
for two years and you haven'tset your foot there?
And you you think that's okay?

(40:37):
So you know, again, I'm comingwith this very basic example,
but it's the kind of thing wheresometimes just listening to
someone saying, Well, did youwas this what you told me?

SPEAKER_02 (40:50):
Forces you to gain awareness and to say, Ooh, yes,
that is what I've been doing.
You're you're right.

SPEAKER_00 (40:56):
And yes, and do I want to do something about it?
And then it's up to me.
I might say, No, I'm just gonnakeep paying the gym and that's
fine.
Or I can say, No, well, I reallywant to change this, and can you
help me?
And and having someone by yourside, even if that person is not
gonna give you the solution,because most solutions we have

(41:16):
inside ourselves, it can helpyou to find the way to the
solution.

SPEAKER_02 (41:21):
Well, just the questions, right?
I I think the power of questionsis so maybe I'm having that
conversation with you, or out ona walk, and you're, oh yeah,
I've been paying for the gym fortwo years, and you know, so
maybe I what is it, you know,what is it that you like?
I mean, when I don't know, whenyou signed up for the gym, what
did you imagine?
Or what is it you dislike themost about the gym?

(41:44):
And it could, you know, youmight realize, oh my gosh, maybe
it's just because I keepthinking I should go in the
afternoon, or maybe I need abuddy, maybe I need a workout
buddy, you know, maybe I'mlonely at the gym and I feel,
you know, like there's all theseyounger people around me that
have amazing bodies, and somaybe I just need a workout
partner, you know.
Yeah, and you might not evenunderstand.

(42:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (42:05):
Yeah, all those, and many times what what a
conversation with someone elsecan give you is show you your
blind spots because sometimesit's it's just there in front of
you, but you're actually notseeing it.
And it's not because you don'twant to, it's because it's your
blind spot.
That's it.
You're you're not just aware ofit.
And suddenly someone just tellsyou something uh that remind

(42:27):
reminded me of an interestingsituation with a uh top
executive.
He was really frustrated becausehe kept moving away from
budgeting and they keep givinghim budgeting.
And he said, But but what'swrong with this guy?
Why do they keep giving me this?
I hate because I always fail.

(42:47):
And someone said, Well, but ifthey keep giving it to you,
probably you don't fail thatmuch.
You're probably pretty goodbecause that's why they give you
that.
And he was like, Boom.

SPEAKER_02 (42:59):
Because it his story in his head is I'm bad at that.
I'm bad, and and somebody's butthe reality, you know, was was
the reverse.

SPEAKER_00 (43:08):
He was obviously good, otherwise, he wouldn't
keep getting the job.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (43:12):
Well, it's that it creates a I guess they call it
cognitive dissonance, where it'slike there's the reality and
then there's the story in yourhead, and what sometimes when
you're faced to when you'reforced to face it, oh geez,
either my story is wrong or thereality is wrong.
Can't we both do things?
And I've learned that it'susually the story.
I've I've learned to when I'mwhen I'm really, you know, like

(43:35):
in a conversation with someonelike I have this story in my
head.
I just want to put it out there.
This is a story in my head thatthis is what's going on.
Can you help me edit that story?
Or is it or is it right?
You know, it's it's kind of agood way to approach uh approach
those things, I think.

SPEAKER_00 (43:51):
But definitely, uh that reminds me of an
interesting expression that thatis well, allegedly something
goes like that guy lies like awhite, like an eyewitness,
meaning that eyewitnesses lie alot.
And and they actually do,because usually if you ask, Oh,
did you see that car crash?

(44:13):
And people say, Oh yes, I did.
So when did you start looking atit?
Well, I heard the crash and Ilooked.
So you didn't actually see thecrash, but naturally you created
an a narrative inside your mindthat made sense out of what you
saw.

SPEAKER_02 (44:28):
Because we gotta we gotta fill in the gaps to
exactly our brain can't dealwith so we fill in the gaps.
I think it was Mark.

SPEAKER_00 (44:36):
We're not lying, you know, we're not deliberately
lying, but actually our brainjust creates this narrative that
makes sense and it makes realityfit into that narrative.

SPEAKER_02 (44:49):
I saw I don't know in Portugal if you have the
tooth fairy, but we have thetooth fairy when I was growing
up and I saw the tooth fairy.
It was nine probably nine or so.
I saw the tooth fairy, and I wasI had like seen her.
Wings, I saw it all.
And I told everybody that I sawthe toothbret, described what

(45:11):
she looked like, and justbelieved it 110%.
And then at some point a littlelater on in life, when I learned
some not everything is what youthink it is.
I remember when I learned someother people other figures
weren't quite what I thoughtthey were.
The first thing I said was,well, what about the toothbert?
Because I saw the toothbrush.

(45:32):
And it was a good lessonactually for me.
You know, it took me a few yearsto really learn it.
But it was a good lesson for me.
Like it's really interestingbecause you know, and it's it's
uh it's it's pretty cool.
Um okay, now we I gotta figureout how the heck did you get
into this because I hear a lotof personal development.
Maybe I'd use words likecoaching, meditation, yoga,

(45:54):
whatever.
I just those are just words inthe story in my head.
So help me edit that story,Nuno.
How like let's go back not justto when you join walking
mentorship, but like let's goback to your childhood a little
bit and just try and figure outa little bit about you that kind
of I get that aha.
Now I understand why he's doingthis type of thing.
So what was going on when youwere a kid?

SPEAKER_00 (46:15):
Thank you for that question.
That is actually I think eveninsightful for me as you were
mentioning it.
So I was a very introvert kid,very um turned into my own
thoughts.
You could say reflective, yes,but but definitely very
introvert.
I so I had several people, closepeople, family people, who were

(46:35):
very intelligent, very brightpeople who were very
unsuccessful at being happy.
People that you would say shouldhave the intellectual skills to
be very successful and leadhappy lives, but some of them
were even, you know, formallysuccessful, but were unhappy the
same.

(46:56):
And that was always somethingthat that stayed inside my mind
and I couldn't figure it out.
I couldn't you know, I couldn'tmake sense out of it.
How come intelligent people arenot successful and happy?
Well I grew up of course, andand uh as you learned about the
tooth fairy, I've learned thatyou know these things are not

(47:18):
necessarily connected.
But so I I I as I grew up, I Iwas always curious and
interested in different things,and but I had no clue what I
wanted to do.
So when I was deciding what togo to the university, I had
basically no clue what I wantedto do.
So a colleague of mine told meshe was gonna study study

(47:41):
advertising, and I thought,advertising, yeah, working with
models that must be cool.
I went for advertising.
It was as simple as that.

SPEAKER_02 (47:53):
I I can understand that.
That's a reasonable decisionwhen you're 19, 18, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 (47:58):
Yeah, yeah, 17, yeah.
So uh that made sense back then,and of course, then I actually
went through the the thelearnings and it was very
useful, but I definitely didn'twant to do that.
I came out and it was well, itwasn't nothing what I imagined.
Um basically I I start I stillstarted a uh a marketing

(48:19):
business during my my universitycourse.
Great failure, so greatlearning.
And then I came out and I waskind of upset, upset or um angry
at people somehow.
And I decided, no, I I love dogsmuch more than people, so I
started a dog hotel.
And I said, I'm gonna turn myback on people and just focus on

(48:43):
the dogs, which is gonna be muchbetter.
And of course, a dog hoteldepends on clients that are
willing to pay for putting theirdogs at the hotel.

SPEAKER_02 (48:51):
Dogs are easy, it's the people.

SPEAKER_00 (48:53):
They're still the people are not so easy if the
dogs could just walk themselvesthere and check in, it would
have been a perfect place.
So quickly enough, I had to, youknow, figure it out and and and
really realize as much as Icould find people upsetting and
sometimes frustrating, and I canstill find that, but also

(49:15):
fascinating and deeply lovable.
So that kind of helped me move.
So, well, then I'm gonna jump alittle bit because otherwise I
would be here for the next fourhours, which doesn't make much
sense and would be veryinteresting for other people.
So um, so then while I workedthrough several different areas,
I still actually I still havethat business, a dog hotel, and

(49:37):
I I still love dogs, but I alsolove people.
And I then worked at anon-governmental agency,
environmental, non-governmentalagency.
Worked, I had some veterinaryclinics, I worked in many
different things, essentially asan entrepreneur, very few stints
working for other people.
I did some real estatedevelopment, which was something

(49:59):
very I found fascinating, veryinteresting, but not really my
uh, you know, not where where Iwas happy.
And I mean it's gonna make senseto uh just make sense of the
question.

SPEAKER_02 (50:11):
Okay, well, before we move on, I wanna I heard you
say entrepreneurial stuff, veryyou know, didn't really like
people, entrepreneur, likeprobably didn't want to work for
people.
Like to have that that, youknow, depending on yourself type
of thing.
I guess what I want to ask iswhen you were younger, if you
were to look back, and I know wecan't change anything, I know
you've got stories in your headthat you've created, but when

(50:33):
you were younger, if you weresurrounded by people that were a
little bit more um I don't know,maybe outgoing or encouraged.
I don't I don't want to putwords in your mouth because you
didn't say anything about themnot being outgoing.
You just said that they weren'thappy.
And I just say that intelligentpeople, and I think this is I
think a lot of people wouldagree on this.
A lot of people that are prettysmart have a really hard time

(50:55):
figuring out life.

SPEAKER_01 (50:57):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 (50:59):
So where I'm going with this is if you'd had people
when you were younger that werehappy, do you think that that
would have made your earlieryears much easier?
Do you think you would have gonea different direction?
What impact do you think thatwould have had on you?

SPEAKER_00 (51:10):
Speculation.
It is, it's completely calls forspeculation, as they would say
in court, but I will speculate,I will indulge.
Well, probably yes, but I don'tthink my life would be more
interesting because of that.

SPEAKER_01 (51:23):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (51:23):
It would probably be different.
But the thing is that the theexperiences I had and and
certainly the challenges I Iwent through, and some of them
were were with very closepeople, family members very
close, so specifically myparents and my father
specifically.
Those were very impactful, ofcourse, and and they made me

(51:46):
very aware of certain um certainaspects of the human experience,
and as you were saying, howintelligent and capable people
can be and successful and veryunhappy, not only not happy, but
actually very unhappy.
And that always stuck with me.
So jumping a few years ahead oneday a friend of mine gave me a

(52:10):
book.
Well, he had read it, and hethought, Oh, I think you're
gonna like this book.
And it was EmotionalIntelligence by Daniel Goleman.
Because there are two Daniels inthis area, so I think I'm giving
the right one, but anyway.
And uh Emotional Intelligence,it's it's a very simple,
relatively small book, but Irecommend anyone to read it,

(52:32):
especially if you ever feel thisquestioning that I have how come
intelligent people are not thatsuccessful or that um happy.
And it really helped me to makesense of some things.
And of course, there are if youlook at it today, the book has
been surpassed by many moreknowledge that has been

(52:52):
developed, a lot of research, alot of new things.
But let's say that thefundamentals there make full
sense, which is we don't needonly, let's say, the rational,
the Carthesian intelligence, weneed a number of other
competencies social, relational,self-management, awareness of

(53:13):
others, empathy, all thesethings that are that are as
important or even more importantto your happiness than actually
being very intelligent.
And that made me think backthere and then that it would be
really interesting if we couldhelp people to develop those
capacities because it's a shamethat people that would have huge

(53:37):
potential are not being able toexpress that potential, are not
being are not enjoying theirlives fully, because if maybe
they could be helped to to findthat.

SPEAKER_02 (53:47):
Well, maybe just even just being a because a lot
of really smart people, Ibelieve, are brought up being
told you're smart.
That's like probably the worstthing you can say to a kid, I
think.
You know, is oh my god, you'reso smart, you can figure it out.

SPEAKER_00 (54:02):
You're so smart, you can you can do anything you
want.

SPEAKER_02 (54:04):
You can do anything, you're gonna be you could be an
astronaut, you could be alawyer, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 (54:08):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (54:09):
Oh, so then you've got this kid grows up thinking,
my entire identity is around myintelligence, my you know, not
emotional intelligence, but myyou know how smart I am.
So the first time I run intosomething hard and I fail at it,
it's a total identity disaster.
It's like, oh my gosh, I'm notas smart as my parents thought I

(54:32):
was, and oh, I'm gonna fail inlife.
What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 (54:36):
I think it's worse than that.
It's not it's not I'm not assmart as I'm not despite being
smart, I fail.

SPEAKER_01 (54:46):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (54:47):
So what else do I have?
So yeah, so why?
How come?
And again, if I'm so smart,things should be easy, and then
you need to deal with challengesand difficulties, and and you
need to be resilient and youneed to persevere, and you need
to keep and I mean there are somany things, and this is
obviously um very, I think, verymeaningful conversation to have,

(55:09):
especially these days where wehave this, I would say, the
pandemic of kids with anxietyand feeling miserable, and well,
I'm not even gonna go into theugliest side of that.
Which which really needs toconcern us.
And so to connect to youroriginal question, what led me

(55:29):
to pay to be attentive and to beopen to these, let's say, issues
of personal development was thisquestioning.
How can we create conditions sothat people and actually at the
beginning I thought how can wecreate conditions so that kids
can work on that early on sothat you know in their future
lives they will be in better,um, much more happy

(55:52):
circumstances.
Save them a lot of time and painand effort and well the whole
society, I would say, becausethen we all improve with that.
And as as I was going throughthis awareness, it happened that
my wife invited me to go walkthe Camino de Santiago.
So she arrived home one day andshe just said, Look, I have good

(56:13):
and bad news.
I'm going to walk the Camino deSantiago and you're coming with
me.
And I said, Yeah, and what's thebad news?
Good for you.
But fine, that's gonna be fun.
And so I went on this walk, notaware it was a mentorship
program.
It was actually one of the pilotprograms from walking mentorship
that the founder Joan, my part,my business partner, was hosting

(56:36):
and and guiding and andfacilitating.
I had no clue, I just thoughtI'm gonna walk the Camino.
Okay, that's fun.

SPEAKER_02 (56:42):
That's gonna be bothered to tell you about all
the introspection andpersonality.

SPEAKER_00 (56:47):
No, no, no, she kept it simple.
Yeah, she she she knows how toplay.
She's smart, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (56:52):
Because there's a lot of guys that would as soon
as I said, Oh, there's gonna bementors and you're gonna figure
out what you want to do withyour life and and connect with
your deepest, darkest secretsand emotions, you'd be like,
Yeah, have a fun trip,sweetheart.

SPEAKER_00 (57:04):
Yeah, exactly.
So I think she was she's verysmart emotionally and not only,
but emotionally definitely.
And so she invited me for thatand we went on that walk.
And it really allowed me to makedecisions, important, relevant,
impactful decisions, that I wasthat I had been postponing for

(57:28):
decades.
And and not only making thedecisions, but actually feeling
okay, feeling comfortable,absolutely at peace with my
decisions.

SPEAKER_02 (57:41):
And that allowed me that's a hard spot to get to
that.

SPEAKER_00 (57:44):
Yeah, yeah.
I was struggling with that.
That meant disappointing peopleI love and people I respect.
And that was a hard threshold tocross.
But then it was such a huge, apowerful change in my life.
So it really allowed me to movefrom kind of let's say the life

(58:09):
that that had happened to me tothe life I was choosing for
myself.
And that is, you know,fundamental and and really
deeply impactful.
And just to be clear, not to saythat my life ever ended and then
they lived happily ever after,it's not like that.
Of course not.
Life keeps going and thechallenges keep coming and
everything.

(58:30):
But you are more intentional,where at least you are, I won't
say at the driver's seat, butyou are at the helm, which again
you go with the current, youdon't really control exactly
where you're going.
The sea still has a lot to dowith what you're doing, but at
least you are at the helm, andyou can at least try to steer

(58:50):
something in the direction thatyou want.
And so that was like my entranceinto or or my awareness of
walking mentorship, and uh thenwell, I just kept coming for
programs because I I had so muchenjoyed it that I just I mean, I
wouldn't go to every program,obviously it wouldn't make
sense, but I kept coming yearafter year, and so eventually I

(59:14):
I naturally joined.
I mean, I then actually it wasinteresting in 2000.
So this was beginning of 2016,then in 2000, the end of 2017.
I think Joan invited me toco-create a program specifically
for parents and kids.
We always have this discussion.
He says, I suggested it, I thinkhe suggested it.

(59:35):
So, well, again, our brains arecreating narratives, we don't
know.

SPEAKER_02 (59:39):
You guys run a walk and it just happened.

SPEAKER_00 (59:41):
Yeah, it just yeah, it just came up.
So, and and we created a programfor parents and kids, which we
will be running again this year.
We are we have been runningevery year ever since.
And the collaboration and thethe the work was so natural, so
easy, that uh then in 2020 Joinvited me to actually join uh

(01:00:05):
as a partner at WalkingMentorship.
My other businesses allowed forthat, so I was not at our at an
operational level, so I couldreally um you know step out of
that.
Um and it was uh kind of okay,finally I know what I want to do

(01:00:27):
when I grow up, you know.
So that is I was almost 50, soeasy.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:34):
I I'm still trying to figure it out myself,
honestly.
Maybe I need to go on one ofyour programs.
I guess I don't know, but I'mthinking some of the listeners
might want me to ask you this,and I think I definitely want to
ask you this, and we can figureout we can navigate how you want
to respond because I don't wantto get too personal.
But you early on in theconversation, you kind of
mentioned the four stages andthe third stage, I'm gonna call

(01:00:56):
the vision stage.
I don't remember exactly what tocall it, but what is the vision?
Yeah, and then there's the okay,here's the game plan.
So even without telling us whatyour vision was or what your
game plan was, if you went backto that time and remembered,
hopefully, if you do remember,what your vision was, what you
came out, what what the planwas, does it align with what you

(01:01:19):
ended up doing miraculously?
Was or was it something totallydifferent that then kind of
shifted around?
I I would just love to know, orwas that first walk was like
anybody that could get insideyour head be like, yeah, he's
gonna be a mentor a few yearsfrom now, he's gonna be a
partner.
What uh what can you tell usabout that?

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:37):
Well, first I I will share an expression.
A friend of mine, a coach, whomI love.
She always says, When you setyourself clear goals, then the
universe conspires with you tomake them happen.
So I really believe there issome.
I'm not gonna go into themystical aspect of it.
I just feel that when you haveclear goals, generally things

(01:01:59):
tend to align.
Doesn't mean you get exactlywhat you wanted, but you're
probably gonna get closer tothere that than if you just have
no clue.
But um back then, my main visionabout the future, or so my my
vision exercise as you calledit, essentially had to do with
taking a lot of burdens and alot of weight off my shoulders,

(01:02:21):
a lot of responsibility I hadtaken on for other people that
that I shouldn't be taking on.
Let's say I don't blame them atall.
I I blame myself and I know it'sit has to do with the way I
behave.
It is still something I amworking on.
So although I did solve asignificant number of situations

(01:02:43):
there back then, thischaracteristic of mine did not
change, so I keep working on it.
Okay, so um this is something Ithink we need to be honest
about, which is I don't thinkthere is a magical one that
solves problems.
You just become more aware andyou become more competent at

(01:03:05):
dealing with yourcharacteristics, which you know,
we like people like to talkabout strengths and weaknesses.
I believe we havecharacteristics that can appear
as strengths or weaknessesdepending on context, on
intensity, on you know, on howyou have control or not over
them.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:25):
Right.
I remember hearing kind of alongthe lines of um these things,
you know, are they serving you?
You know, is it okay?
Um you know, I uh I like tosleep in just an example.
I like to sleep in the morning,okay.
Great, is that serving you?
If it's serving you, fine, fine.
Yeah, why not?
If it's not, then maybe we needto figure out, you know, find

(01:03:47):
something else that serves youbetter, as opposed to, you know,
strengths and weaknesses.
Cause because you're right,because one person's weakness.
I mean, maybe also theirstrength, just depending on like
you said, like context and stufflike that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:59):
Look, a driven person can be a workaholic, can
be seen as a bully, can be, youknow, can be like uh narrow
focused or narrow-minded.
But but then also a drivenperson can get a lot of work
done, can be really, you know.
So we really need to look atcharacteristics and and
understand how they if they areworking for you, if they are

(01:04:22):
really producing good resultsinto your life, or if they are
causing you damage.
And then work with that andunderstand if you need to, you
know, this thing I was sharingabout myself, what I try to do
is to be more conscientiousabout it.
So I I try to make decisionsabout it.
So yes, I do I am willing totake certain responsibilities

(01:04:43):
for my kids, certainly.
Shared with my wife for sure.
My mother is aging, yes, ofcourse I'm willing to take some
responsibilities, but am I fullyresponsible for any of these
persons?
I'm not.
Even if I wanted to be, Icouldn't.
And so the thing, the balance isthere.
How can you share the burden?

(01:05:04):
Yes, be helpful, be there, butthen keep in mind that you are
responsible for yourself, yeah,and then else.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:14):
And if you're if you're so busy taking care of
and being responsible foreverybody else and ignoring
yourself, it's actually kind ofmessed up because then they get
a version of you that's pissedoff and grouchy and or you know,
passive aggressive.
And have you read the book NoMen No More Mr.
Nice Guy?
I haven't.
I haven't.

(01:05:34):
I think it's more about dating,about how men interact in
relationships and you know, allthis stuff, and like they gotta
kinda it's not about being ajerk, but you know, anyway, it's
just it for some reason thethought came to came to my head.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:46):
I will share this from my um and that that didn't
come up in that first walk.
But one of the questions we askis what is most important?
And we invite you to create kindof this podium of you know,
hierarchical, so one thing ismost important than anything
else.
And I used to put my family upthere, and now I put taking care

(01:06:07):
of myself because if I don'ttake care of myself, I'm not
there to take care of it.
You're not taking one else.
So the answer is very easy, butit's always a challenge for
myself.
I always find it challenging tosay no.
I need to take care of myselffirst so I can, you know, put on
your oxygen mask before helpingother passengers.
Otherwise, you're gonna pass outand you're not gonna help

(01:06:28):
anyone.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:29):
I think I think you and I have read a lot of uh
books in common and have beenexposed to some of these things.
I'm not gonna say that I'm doinga well, uh, a great job
incorporating them into my lifebecause there's still a lot of
things that don't serve me.
That I that I continue toaccept, right?
But anyway, what a what afascinating conversation.

(01:06:49):
We've discussed a bunch ofdifferent I know we could
probably do five or six morelike episodes on personal
development and psychology anduh and all this stuff, but I
love the way you're approachingit.
Because I've been involved insome you know coaching programs
in the past.
Or programs and have beenthrough, it sounds like maybe
some similar processes about youknow the vision, getting clear

(01:07:11):
of the vision and you know, towhere you can taste it and smell
it and feel it and really,really get it built in your
body.
But I love that you guys aredoing some of that stuff.
I'm not saying that's exactlywhat you're doing, but that
you're incorporating this into awalk in the nature.
You know, cool is that, asopposed to a conference room
somewhere or a group Zoom callor whatever.

(01:07:32):
You know, there's a lot ofdifferent ways to go through
programs.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:35):
I will not judge, but I definitely prefer to be
out walking than sitting in aconference room.
Actually, I will I will tell yousomething.
If it was if it was technicallypossible, I would prefer to be
walking while recording thispodcast.
Unfortunately, that wouldn'tprobably work very well on the
end result, so people wouldn'tunderstand anything, but we've
tried it.
Yeah, we've tried it, it doesn'twork.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:56):
Well, I you know that I'm happy you mentioned
that because that's something wedidn't touch on when I
introduced you, is you guys havea podcast.
So that was part of the otherfun of this for me is uh you've
got a podcast, so why don't youpitch the podcast real quick?
I shouldn't say pitch it, butjust tell our listeners, you
know, just make it make it clearfor them so they can go find it.
Let's do that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:15):
Well, uh thank you for that and for the
opportunity.
It's uh the podcast is it's youcan find it on our webpage,
walking mentorship.com, and it'scalled Keep Walking With Me.
And essentially, we've invitedpeople we found interesting, and
we kind of went on aconversation.
Well, similar to what thewebsite is.

(01:08:38):
That's it.
So we just kind of followwhatever we're curious about and
and try to put that out thereavailable for people to check it
out.
And I mean, we we've talked withpeople who do similar work to
what we do, but then with peoplewho researchers, writers, sports
people.
I mean, you can find a bit ofeverything there.
Uh I mean, just just take a lookand see what what calls you, and

(01:09:02):
if you just listen a bit, yousee if it's interests you.
We're interested already.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:07):
After this conversation, I mean, anybody
that's listening to this thatthat just like, oh, this is
really interesting stuff.
It sounds like there's more ofthat available on your show.
And you also mentioned that youtried doing the walking and
record the podcast at the sametime.
It's a brilliant idea, but Ialso appreciate the technical
challenge.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:25):
I will tell you, we we tried really hard and we just
felt it was not fair on ourguests.
First of all, it's uh yeah, youknow, they would have we would
have great guests with reallyamazing answers that deserve to
be well listened to, but thenyou had trouble with the sound,
you had trouble with noises, youhad trouble with, you know, and

(01:09:49):
and so we it's a wholeproduction.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:52):
The only way I could see that uh you guys have
thought about a lot more than Ihave.
I haven't really thought aboutit at all, but it's yeah, it's
like you almost have to do itlike a video with a video team
and uh and uh little lavaliermics and and you need but then
you gotta do oh we missed thatshot, we gotta do it again, and
yeah, that's that's uh which isand then that loses the the the

(01:10:13):
flow, right?

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:14):
Because I think when this is fun because we're just
following what is calling ourattention and not really
following a script, and then ifyou do it again, it's not gonna
be as spontaneous.
So uh, you know, in the end,okay, we'll sacrifice a little
bit and we'll sit here for awhile and have uh beautiful talk
anyway.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:32):
So that's that's the thing.
Going on the walk is great, butit's the when you try to capture
it through microphones andcameras and stuff.
Uh like you're not gonna do thaton your your your um, I don't
know, what do you call them?
Your walks?
What do you call like some touroperators would call it a
departure, a an expedition orwhatever.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:51):
Well, we call them programs.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:53):
Programs, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:53):
Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:54):
Programs that so but it's yeah, you're not gonna be
running around trying to filmthat stuff for your program.
I mean, maybe get some coolphotos along the way, whatever,
but that totally diminishes thewhole point of the entire thing.
So I I get it completely.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:07):
No, we yeah, we don't produce, we just uh we we
do when we go on on ourprograms, we do take pictures
and make sometimes we make uhmovies, you know, videos of what
we're doing, but really not notnot capturing conversations,
just you know, the spirit of thething.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:25):
So I guess I did want to ask you.
Uh you mentioned scripting, andI understand that as kind of a
okay, well, here's an exercisewe're gonna do that's gonna help
us tap into whatever we'retrying to whatever we're trying
to accomplish.
But I actually just wanted toask you do any of these trips
involve camping, building fires,repelling, ropes courses, any of
that stuff?
I just feel like I need to askthat question.

(01:11:46):
Okay.
No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:48):
So uh uh they're they're quite, let's say, civil
in the sense they're quiteaccessible walks that anyone
able to walk, I would say 10miles can can do.
Uh we do usually a little bitmore than that per day, but can
vary.
And we usually don't do veryextreme stuff because we want to
make it accessible to a largenumber of people.

(01:12:11):
Uh also because people that aremore interested in interested in
in self-development usually arenot uh 20 or 30 year old year
olds, they're more like 40 or 50or even more.
Yeah, so probably you you wouldyou would narrow you could

(01:12:31):
narrow a bit your your uh yourclientele if you really make it
too extreme.
I personally really enjoy sun.
I love rock climbing, rapelling,I love cold water, so I do like
some a little bit more extremethings, but I think that's a
very personal choice.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:50):
And yeah, and it doesn't sound like you need to
do those things to accomplishthe goals you guys are
accomplishing.
So yeah.
No.
All right, very cool.
We discussed a bunch of stuffbefore we wrap up.
We've we've gone over a littlebit, so I appreciate you
spending more time with us.
But before we wrap up, is thereoh good.
Is there anything I forgot toask you, you wish I would have
asked you, or anything you wantto make sure our listeners know
before we wrap up?

(01:13:11):
That's you caught me off guardthere.
I guess we covered everything.
I know we could keep going.

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:16):
I just want to make sure I could keep going.

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:23):
But if there's something there, great.
If not, that's okay too.

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:26):
I I will say something which which is a bit
of a pitch, but not really.
Um which is I really believe uhthese programs are are in uh so
I I think they are not foreveryone at every moment of
their lives, but I thinkeveryone goes through moments

(01:13:47):
where these programs arenecessary.
Well, ours or others.
I mean, I'm not saying this isthe only way, of course.
There are many ways to exploreyour reality map and to look
into the future and to try to,you know, really be intentional
about all your life.
But I do think it is it isimportant for people to do that
reflection and to be open to ifthey find that moment, if they

(01:14:11):
find themselves in that momentwhere they feel this is really a
uh an opportunity and kind of apivotal moment or where I need
to make important decisions, orI feeling I'm feeling just that
I'm going with the flow, but notreally going where I want to go.
It's really important to todecide that and and maybe
address something you touchedbefore, which is we do have more

(01:14:35):
women joining our programs thanmen, which is doesn't come as a
surprise.
But I really wish more men wouldjoin because I really think it
can be tremendously impactfuland tremendously useful, namely
for our enjoyment of our ownlives.
So um I really think we weshould be more open to this.

(01:14:58):
And my business partner, thefounder of Walking Mentorship,
likes to say that these arementoring programs for skeptics.
So we we don't make trust falls,we don't you know we're we're
not very let's say we we don'task for a big leap of faith, and
you're basically free to decidehow much you want to share and
how much you want to be um youknow a participant in the group

(01:15:21):
dynamics and all that.
So that's in your hands, butyour own process that's up to
you, and and definitely the moreyou give, the more you receive,
the more you really open intothese processes, the more you
can gain from them.
So I definitely I I think I'm Ibecame a big advocate for
personal development and and uhand if you can do it outdoors,

(01:15:44):
definitely it's something greatto do as well, yeah.
Well, uh we will be joining, ifyou allow me, I we will be
joining a super interestingevent in Henley Business School,
uh, which will be now in June,which is Nature Connected
Coaching Live, which isbasically a gathering of people
working in this area.
Well, this is we're not looniesanymore, so there are more

(01:16:06):
people doing the same.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:08):
You're not loonies anymore.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:12):
I I I get it.
It's it's super, super cool.
Now, but but of course, anotherquestion did pop into my mind
when you mentioned that it'smost you know, typically women
are maybe more inclined to signup and that you'd like to see
more men.
So the question that came up,because you said you went with
your wife the first time.
I went through a fairly intenseleadership type of coaching, you

(01:16:32):
know, coaching program at onepoint, and they said, Yeah, you
and your partner should go, butnot together, not on the same
departure.
Let's call it the samedeparture, because sometimes
people are more comfortableopening up if, like, you know,
if you're talking to a guy andhe's like, Yeah, you should go
with your wife, and and duringthe course of the five days
you're gonna open up and shareall this stuff with everybody in
the group.

(01:16:52):
That's gonna sound veryintimidating.
Probably even more so.
He might be more inclined to doit if his wife was not on the
trail.
I don't know.
What is your experience and whatwhat advice do you give to men
that are thinking about or up towomen that are thinking about
bringing their hey, we're goingon a hike and not telling him
the rest of it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:10):
Well, um, I can tell you I did several of this
programs with my wife, and umbecause we were not so the the
the issues both of us wereworking on were not relation
related.

SPEAKER_02 (01:17:24):
Okay, that's good.

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:25):
So it was not an issue, you know.
You there there was there was notension or no friction there,
and so if you but if you'rethinking about a divorce, you
probably shouldn't go with yourwife.
No, that was very or even if oreven if you're thinking about
saving your your marriage, butthen probably you can both go on

(01:17:47):
I would following what you said,go on different departures.
I mean just allow give yourselftime to to be with yourself and
to really think and don't putthe the stress of the
relationship on top of uh uhreflection process.
That being said, I've seenseveral couples joining and
having a wonderful time, andactually because if the relation

(01:18:10):
is fine, there can actually bebenefits out of being together
in this process because probablyyou want to align different
things.
Imagine.
Suddenly you start thinking,well, maybe I would like to move
to a different country.
Probably you want to discussthat with your spouse, right?

SPEAKER_02 (01:18:29):
Probably a good idea to do it on a walk, probably a
good idea to do it when there'smentors around in case the
conversation goes sideways.

SPEAKER_00 (01:18:36):
And and before you start actually making a lot of
plans, you that comes up to yourmind and you say, Well, look,
think I was thinking moving toChina.
What do you think about that?
Forget about it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:18:47):
Don't because here's the thing.
If if you go away on one ofthese programs and you and your
spouse doesn't go with you, andyou come up with this idea to
move to China and start atextile factory in China,
probably something you're right,that you should have some sort
of discussion with her beforeyou visualize it and come up
with a game plan and a yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:19:08):
Good idea.
So I think there can be pros andand cons to both situations, but
especially unless yourrelationship is in crisis, I
think you can perfectly do it asa couple.
And I think there I have seenbeautiful resolutions and
evolutions happen in thatenvironment.
Um now this are we actuallydesigned them to be

(01:19:33):
transformational programs.
So this is transformationaltravel.
There is the saying thatwhenever you travel, you never
return the same, you alwaystransform.
But this is actuallyintentionally giving you the
tools to transform, so you'recoming back transformed.
Now that means the people whostayed behind did not transform

(01:19:55):
in the same way.
And so there is uh we alwaysreally tell people plan for a
soft landing and be ready forthis kind of shock, which is
when you go back, your life willbe as it was, but you're not the
same.
You will be different.
And so there is there is a needfor an adaptation and for a

(01:20:16):
capacity to you know merge backinto that without losing
yourself, without you know,giving away your your your your
transformation, and that is umthat is doable, but it's
demanding.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:32):
Yeah.
I I guess I just need to askthis another another question.
But okay, so you said mostlywomen going on these trips,
transformational, figuring outkind of what's important to
them, how to enjoy life and andall this stuff.
Um, you've got some men on thetrips in my experience.
Sometimes when you start reallydoing that type of work, you can
create connections with otherpeople in the group.

(01:20:53):
Probably do.
I mean, I suspect that's part ofit.
Yeah.
And sometimes that connectioncan I'm just gonna be very
direct.
It's just a place a single guycould go on a trip.
And and I'm not suggesting thatit would be appropriate to go to
meet women, but I just want toput the question out there so
you can answer it.
So anybody that's listening tothis thinking, yeah, that's

(01:21:16):
probably not a good plan, or itis a good way to go meet
like-minded people that are alsointo personal development.
What are your thoughts?
Because I'm sure you've seen ithappen.

SPEAKER_00 (01:21:24):
We've seen it happen.
It's uh it's not the rule, butit does happen.
It's definitely not a a datingprogram.
So that is very clear andupfront.
And so no one is expected to bethere on a on a dating program.
But that being said, of course,it it can happen if you I mean
if you are in a transform in ain a time of transformation, of

(01:21:47):
change, and you're with peoplewho are also in that moment, it
is natural that there will besome identity.
Some bonding.
Some bonding.
And usually very deep andmeaningful friendships arise
from from that.
I I'm remembering at least onesituation where a marriage
arised from I mean, not notimmediately, but after two

(01:22:09):
years.
No, no, obviously not.
And and actually the relationdid not start during the trip,
but people they they stayed intouch and then eventually uh it
evolved into uh they starteddating and they got fell in love
and and it was a beautifulstory.
But it's not I mean it's notlike the rule by any means.

(01:22:30):
The rule is you you make verygood friends and people whom you
can meet after a couple of yearsor maybe five, six years, and it
feels like you were talking withthem yesterday, which is a very,
you know, really nice feeling,kind of you know, childhood
friends that you meet after 20years and you just feel like you
were together the the daybefore.

(01:22:50):
So it's it's kind of this veryhonest, very real relation that
you get to build because youwere walking with these people
for a week, walking in nature,talking about very meaningful,
deep reflections, and so ithappens.

SPEAKER_02 (01:23:08):
Sounds sounds pretty cool.
You know, thank you so much forfor sharing so much about what
you guys are doing and and yourlife and kind of what you've
learned along the way.
I think it's important forpeople to hear that.
We went a slightly we spent alot more time talking about
personal development on thisepisode than we probably have on
the other 180, but uh everyevery conversation has brought
out different things.
You brought out a lot of goodstuff, and I appreciate that.

(01:23:31):
And I hope to uh go on a walkwith you someday.
This was fun.

SPEAKER_00 (01:23:34):
Well, uh, I appreciate it so much.
Thank you so much for thebrilliant questions and uh the
conversation.
It was really very easygoing.
I didn't notice the time goingby.
So I just hope we're not gonnago for our listeners, but I
hopefully they will enjoy it.
Uh if anybody's still listening,thank you.
Yeah, thank you for that.
But thank you so much for allthe wonderful conversation.

(01:23:56):
Thank you.

All Episodes

Adventure Travel with Nuno Santos Fernandes - Walking Mentorship

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

The Breakfast Club

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Adventure Travel with Nuno Santos Fernandes - Walking Mentorship