Adventure Travel with Peter Bergman - Beyond Expedition Consulting - Adventure Travel Podcast - Big World Made Small

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (01:05):
Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of
the Big World Made Small podcastfor the Adventure Traveler.
So happy to have each and everyone of you back today.
I'm also very excited we've gota very interesting guest.
We've got Peter Bergman.
Peter is an expedition leaderand founder of Beyond Expedition
Consulting.
Peter, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 (01:24):
Thanks, Jason.
Great to be on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 (01:26):
It's gonna be a lot of fun.
I I spoke with you uh it wasonly a week or so ago and was
pretty intrigued with some ofthe stuff you've done in the
past and and you offer whatmight not seem unique to you,
but it seems unique to me thatyou're you're working with
companies to help them improvetheir programs.
So we're gonna get into that alittle bit.
Let's let's actually startthere.
Well, no, no, let's not startthere.
Your accent is a littledifferent than mine, and through

(01:48):
the power of technology, we'reable to connect from anywhere in
the world.
So let's let's tell ourlisteners real quick, where are
you right now?

SPEAKER_01 (01:55):
So I'm in Sydney in Australia, and uh it's actually
middle of winter, so probablynot the idyllic uh Australian
day by the beach.
It's raining outside, but it'squite a nice one to to be inside
here and hanging out for somewarmer weather to come.

SPEAKER_00 (02:11):
So when you say winter, and I'm thinking Sydney,
I've not been there that time ofyear, but you mentioned rain.
Is it what is it like reallycold or is it just not as nice
as it is in the summer?
What what are we talking about?

SPEAKER_01 (02:24):
Oh, it's it's not too bad here.
I'd say it's a mild winter, soyou can still go outside.
It's just a little bit wet.
It's not really stopping me fromgetting in for a swim down at
the ocean, which is still quitenice.
Uh water temperatures about 18,19 Celsius, and it's yeah,
probably about the same airtemperature through the winter
as well.
It's just shorter days, uh, butit's it's still nice.

(02:47):
I I I do actually enjoy alltimes of the year here.

SPEAKER_00 (02:51):
Cool.
We're gonna get into your pastand kind of how you've bounced
around and and how you ended upthere in Sydney.
But before we do that, I alsowant to give our listeners a
real clear idea of what exactlyit is that you do with Beyond
Expedition Consulting.
Without going into how you gotthere, like what service do you
offer to your clients?

SPEAKER_01 (03:10):
Yeah, sure.
So I guess with the consultingside of things, before I got
into the expedition industry, Idid work for an environmental
consultant.
And that was my firstprofessional job outside of uni.
So I do have a background in theconsulting, which I guess uh
broadly speaking is kind ofoffering specialist services,
specialist advice to uhoperators, external companies.

(03:34):
And I saw a real opportunity forthat in the expedition industry
as well, because you know, it isa very niche uh product that
companies offer, and it can bequite difficult to come across
people with experience inparticular parts of the world.
And you know, if you can have asmuch of that intel uh before

(03:56):
actually, you know, takingguests for that experience, then
it really helps to create astronger product uh leading up
to it, and I guess moreconfidence in the areas that
you're going to as well.
So that was kind of the ideabehind it, simply from feeling
as though I had a lot that Icould offer in that space from
my time having you know workedin the field in expeditions and

(04:19):
with the way that the expeditionindustry is going, there's just
so much growth and a lot of newcompanies coming online that I I
saw an opportunity.
So I'm really just trying to,you know, I guess network and
and and get my name and my brandto different companies and see
what happens with that.

SPEAKER_00 (04:37):
Very cool.
Peter, if you were down at thebeach or just out for a beer or
something there in Sydney andyou bumped into somebody and
they said, What do you do?
And you said, Well, I I'm anexpedition consultant.
They're probably gonna have noidea what that means.
So let's start with the ex Ithink the consult part of it
people kind of pick up on, butwhen you say the expedition

(04:58):
industry or expedition tourism,in kind of your own mind or in
your own words, what isexpedition tourism or the
expedition industry?

SPEAKER_01 (05:09):
Yeah, sure.
And and you're right, it is uhone of those titles that you you
tell the majority of people youspeak to and they they're not
quite sure whether you're inresearch or tourism.
It always sounds cool from thestart, but yeah, exactly.
So uh I would say when when werefer to an expedition, it's
usually more of an adventurousway of traveling to remote parts

(05:31):
of the world.
And that can be land-based, thatcan be ship-based.
And my experience is actuallylimited to ship-based expedition
cruising, we'd call it.
And when you think about it,because a lot of these places
that we go to are remote andthere's not a lot of
infrastructure, especiallytourism infrastructure, it does

(05:52):
make sense for you to travelthere by ship or by the coast,
because you can essentially youknow take everything with you
and and and you move to thesedifferent parts of the coastline
of the of the country wherethere might not be airports or
roads or piers, and you canessentially you know access that
that part of the world.

(06:12):
So for me, I'd say, yeah,expedition is taking guests,
taking tourists to go seeremote, hard-to-access parts of
the world.
And you know, within that,there's a a whole range of ways
you can go about it.

SPEAKER_00 (06:27):
I imagine, just as I listen to you say that, I
imagine that like I'd say, oh,so what I hear you saying is an
expedition is maybe I'm fillingin some gaps here, but I feel
like an expedition is where yougo somewhere and you take
everything you need with you, ina sense.
Whether that's well, you havethe ship, yeah.
Whether that's the ship, or thatmeans tents, or that means some

(06:49):
sort of you know, vehicle thatthat you're traveling uh
overland or something like that,but you're not staying in fixed
locations, fixed hotels, and andmaybe organized campgrounds and
stuff like that.
Is that a fair way to kind ofsummarize what an expedition is,
or am I missing something big?

SPEAKER_01 (07:05):
Look, I would say it kind of depends which way you're
looking at it.
So if you're if you're a a guestwho is going on an expedition,
you would essentially expect tobe you know starting in in one
place and finishing in anotherplace.
And there's not going to be toomuch in terms of resupply or
facilities in between.

(07:27):
Now, when you join a ship to goon an expedition, then
everything you need is going tobe on the ship, and it would be
the responsibility of the crewof the ship to have everything
supplied in advance that theyneed because the the ship would
be going to places where itcan't bunker again, it can't
resupply with fresh produce oryou know what it what it needs

(07:48):
to be able to complete the theexpedition safely.
And land-based would probably bemore small groups that would be
taking things like their ownaccommodation, or you might be
staying in remote shelters orhuts along the way from one
starting point to an end.
So it's essentially an adventureand what people would look to

(08:12):
come away from feeling likethey've gone to places that not
many others have had the chanceto go to.
And it's taken some planning andeffort to get there.

SPEAKER_00 (08:21):
All right.
Very cool.
I think that kind of helps meget my head around it.
And hopefully, our listenersthat aren't familiar with kind
of the expedition part of theindustry, I would just I guess
it's just like a seriousadventure.
Like we've got, you know, thisis the adventure travel podcast,
and for some people, adventuremight be eating street food in
Bangkok, you know.
And I get that.
I I I personally I love thattype of adventure.

(08:43):
But what what we're what you'retalking about is something a few
more moving parts probably thanthan what the the typical
adventurous traveler mightexperience.
You you mentioned working withthere's a lot of new expedition
companies and outfits kind ofcoming on board, and you talked
about kind of helping them gettheir their systems and

(09:04):
everything kind of in place andbefore they start bringing
guests.
Would you say, so your idealclient is is a company that's
never taken a guest, helpingthem get up and running, or do
you work with uh existingcompanies that have been out
there for a while that want tochange things up, um, you know,
bring you in, like give me kindof an idea.
I think the helping an operationlaunch is kind of a little

(09:26):
self-explanatory, but thosecompanies that are already up
and running, what type of thingsmight they ask you to come in
and consult on?

SPEAKER_01 (09:33):
Yeah, sure.
So when you think of expeditiondestinations, there's the kind
of big ticket items, which wouldbe the polar regions, and that's
Antarctica, that is up in theArctic, Greenland, Norway,
Svelbard, Iceland, the CanadianArctic, and and these places
would be kind of the forte ofexpedition cruising.

(09:57):
And you you would assume mostcompanies that are coming in to
operate into that area can andand should have good solid
information about how to makethe operation safe and where to
take people and what you'retrying to see there.
So uh from my perspective, thatisn't all there is to seeing the

(10:17):
world on expedition.
There's you know the whole restof the world that is starting to
open up as well, and these aretropical regions and subtropical
regions and places where theseships might be spending three or
four months down in Antarcticaand then three or four months in
the north.
But you know, you have the otherthird of the year where the
ships can go and explore, andthat might be the South Pacific,

(10:38):
it might be the Indian Ocean,West Coast, East Coast, Africa.
So I would say where I wouldfeel like the the most practical
advice and and maybe uhassisting companies with going
to these newer regions wherethere's not so much previous
track records, and you know thatthe the whole operations are

(10:58):
different as well.
You're not necessarily takingpeople onto onto ice or you
know, zodiac cruising aroundglaciers and icebergs.
You're you're going to thesebeaches where there's some you
know tiny remote cultures in themiddle of the Pacific on a small
island.
And whether you've got 40 peopleor maybe you've got 300 people,
you you really need to thinkabout how you want to have the

(11:20):
guests experience thatopportunity because nobody
really wants to be on a tinyisland surrounded by 300 other,
you know, tourists at the sametime.
And it it it it takes away fromthe it takes away from the.
Well, exactly.
Yeah.
It's uh, you know, we want wewant a sense of authenticity and
that you you're going to placesthat that not many others have

(11:42):
been to.
So there's there's there's athousand ways you could you
could go about it.
But I think what would be my myopinion is that it shouldn't
really be trial and error inthese places.
You should go and you should bereally confident in the in the
product and your operation planand your itinerary before you go
there and you, you know, haveyour have your guests, your

(12:04):
clients who are experiencingthat.
And well, the the there's not alot of people out there who have
been to these places, and youknow, the fact that I have would
be a a big advantage tocompanies who are looking to go
there.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (12:17):
I would think so.
So what is this like thepractical part of it is like is
this all done with operationsmanagers of these companies on
Zoom calls, or do they actuallybring you out and you spend six
months with them?
Is uh is it a mix of that?
Give me an idea of what the jobactually looks like.
Because is it something youcould just do remotely from
anywhere, or does it require youactually spending time with the

(12:39):
teams and in these locations?

SPEAKER_01 (12:41):
So again, could could kind of go either way.
For the most part, my consultinghas been done remotely.
So it would be from havingconversations and I guess, you
know, identifying a problem andfinding a solution for it ahead
of time.
We are lucky the fact that youknow we we can generally go
ahead and plan and getinformation in advance of the

(13:05):
the ship actually being there.
So you can look into things likeuh you know what what the tides
are going to be like, what thetime of season is as well.
The you know that there'sthere's certain things that a
customer might see and think,well, when I go there, I want to
do that, but it can be highlyseasonal.

(13:25):
So you know, you wouldn't reallyyou wouldn't really necessarily
advocate that you're going tohave this perfect itinerary
where where everything goes toplan.
If you're there in the wrongtime of season, it it it might
be the you know the the monsoonseason or um it might be
inaccessible be because ofcertain reasons.
So that's all all these thingsthat can be figured out in

(13:48):
advance, they really help withthe the finished product that
that you deliver as well.
So yeah, to answer your questionfor the most part, mostly remote
consulting, but not limited tothat, you know, if if the
opportunity were to come upwhere it would be to come and
experience an expedition productor see the you know guest flow

(14:12):
from being on the ship togetting off the ship on the
zodiacs to going ashore and howthings work with you know
different activities that areoffered as well, giving uh
advice and and feedback andsuggestions around that as well,
which would be more practical, Iguess, joining joining the
expedition and yeah, then postpost that providing uh

(14:35):
consulting on it.

SPEAKER_00 (14:40):
It's probably not a great analogy, but bear with me,
an event planner.
Like an event planner might do alot of stuff remotely before an
event to get everything set up,to work with their clients, to
figure out what they need, thethe catering, the the transfers,
all this stuff, and then thecompany might say, okay, but we
want you there when it happens,so it's things go sideways.
There's a couple reasons.

(15:01):
One is because you're gonna haveto be there to deal with it, but
also you're gonna be there todeal with it because if this is
a plan you help them puttogether, you have a certain
level of expertise that maybethe ship crew doesn't have.
And so I could see a scenariowhere spend six months coming up
with this new itinerary, thesenew these new destinations or or
plans, and then having you goalong just to kind of make sure

(15:23):
things work the way they weresupposed to.

SPEAKER_01 (15:25):
So hey, yeah, uh and I'd love to do it.
Yeah, all right.
I'd love to do it.
Yeah, there's uh very cool.
You know, that there'sexpedition teams on board, and
you know that that that that isthe forte of the expedition team
because you know you're not justplanning for the next day the
day before.
There is months and andsometimes years involved in you
know, finessing what the idea ofof that day may be.

(15:47):
Have a great day, it'ssuccessful, and then you're
straight on to the next one.
There's no stopping and pattingyourself on the back.
You know, you you have to kindof keep going, and it it can be
quite intense.
But yeah, I mean I still lovegoing on ships and working as
part of the expedition team andbeing an expedition leader.
So that is uh something thatI'll continue to do and you
know, also uh try and createopportunities for when I'm not

(16:12):
away in the field to be able to,you know, also stay connected
with the industry and and upidentify opportunities as well,
short side.

SPEAKER_00 (16:22):
Now, I also recognize if we just look at the
name of your business, okay,beyond expedition consulting,
that could mean two verydifferent things.
One could be you're consultingwith companies that are running
expeditions, but then somebodyalso could like they could even
go in and Google, I want to goon an expedition and I need
somebody to help me set it up orhelp me choose the right one.

(16:44):
So there's that side of it, morethat travel planner or that also
consultants that help peoplefind the right expeditions.
And I I just wanted to bringthat up just for clarity.
Is that something you do, coulddo, would do, want to do, or is
that something that's just thethe complete opposite side of
the spectrum view?

SPEAKER_01 (17:02):
Yeah, sure.
So I would say that is somethingI could do and something that I
would look to do in the future.
There's a there's a couple ofways to look at this because
there is a lot of readilyavailable information out there.
And expedition cruising is areal buzzword in in travel at
the moment, and people want togo to places like Antarctica,

(17:23):
and you can find really goodinformation quite easily on
that.
So I don't really feel like myplace is to go to somebody and
say, hey, if you want to go toAntarctica, here's a secret
where nobody knows, you know,you should go with this company,
not this company.
It can be very dependable ontheir budget, on their style of

(17:45):
travel, whether they wantluxury, ultra luxury, something
more mid-range, how long youwant to go for.
And look, I I I would happilygive my opinion on that a
thousand times over, but I alsothink it's not really me.

SPEAKER_00 (17:59):
It's nice, it's not really me who has it has a sweet
spot for that.

SPEAKER_01 (18:03):
However, there there's different degrees of
that.
You might have somebody who hasa really uh big dream that they
want to go to a place uh, youknow, somewhere they've seen.
Let's keep using Antarctica, forexample.
Uh, but you know what, maybemaybe going on a an expedition
ship with uh, you know, two,three hundred others isn't

(18:27):
really their their style.
Maybe they're in quite afortunate position that they can
be a bit more selective about,you know, that they want to
travel luxury but discreet.
There's a lot of interestingthings happening in that space
as well, where you know it it'sprobably slanted more towards
ultra-high net worth individualsand and and people and
companies, but that informationcan be more difficult to come

(18:51):
by.
And and these people would put alot of trust in someone to say
we want this experience and weare willing to, you know, take
your advice on how to make thatwork.
And yeah, it in that regards,I'd say now that I've been
involved in the industry a bitmore, I'd say, okay, for you, I

(19:13):
kind of know I know what you'relooking for.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (19:15):
What I hear you saying is for the listener out
there that's listening to thisthat has enough money to charter
a yacht and cruise around theSouth Pacific and visit these
remote atolls with their family,private thing for a month or
two, then you're perfectlywilling to have a conversation
with them.

SPEAKER_01 (19:35):
Yeah, yeah, 100%.
And it it's happening, you know,it's happening all the time with
with with these uh these kind ofyou know remote places that a
lot a lot of a lot of thesepeople would have already been
to, or maybe they've been toAntarctica, you know, they've
been to a lot of places and theythey kind of think now I want
experiences, I want to keepcollecting experiences rather

(19:56):
than go here, which where whereI've been to.
But yeah, you know, I think thethe expedition industry and the
expedition ships, they'rethey're there there's huge sales
teams with companies and thatyou know they do they do a
fantastic job and all theinformation there and and and
the brochures are there as well.
But look, if I if I feel like Ican offer an angle that is a

(20:17):
result of having actually beenon an expedition ship and worked
as an expedition leader and andseen some different products,
that that is something that youknow I I'd be confident to offer
advice on.

SPEAKER_00 (20:28):
And I I expect that somebody that owns a yacht that
wants to go somewhere totallynew might benefit from some of
that consulting as as well.
Um that you know they've they'vegot the boat, they've got a cre
they need some help with the insand outs, and they they they
can't just call somebody thatbooks expedition trips to
Antarctica and get that to thatlevel of service.

(20:49):
So it sounds like you might be agood fit for that that type of
scenario as well, I wouldimagine.

SPEAKER_01 (20:53):
Yeah, and you know, gone are the days where you can
really just take a yacht into ainto a country and sail it to an
island and you know, expect thatyou can go ashore if it's a
remote community.
Um, these things should be doneproperly, and you know, you do
need to the there's manycountries that spring to mind

(21:15):
with this, but you know, youalmost do need to have that kind
of middleman role of of somebodythat is able to make the
connection because it's not amatter of getting to a place,
it's a matter of being invitedinvited in to a community,
that's a big difference.

SPEAKER_00 (21:31):
Yeah, that's a long that's a long way to take your
yacht, and then you get thereand nobody wants to see you, and
well, you didn't you didn't fillout the paperwork at the island
a thousand miles back, so youneed to turn around and go back
and and fill out the paperwork,and yeah, that's it would have
happened for sure.
Yeah, and uh Yeah, I've livedI've lived in the third world.

(21:51):
I lived in I lived in theCaribbean for a while, which is
not not nearly as complicated assome of these places you're
discussing, but I also recognizethat things don't always happen
the way you think they shouldhappen, and it's good to have
somebody that can kind ofnavigate.
I get that.
Let's uh let's get into yourhistory, let's figure out how
the heck you got there, becauseI know you had a bunch of
experiences along the way.
Let's go back to are you Aussieoriginally?

(22:12):
Are you from Australia?
I guess that's the firstquestion.
Were you born in Australia?
Where were you born?
What day?

SPEAKER_01 (22:17):
Yeah, born and bred morning and bred Aussie.

SPEAKER_02 (22:20):
All right.

SPEAKER_01 (22:21):
Morning, actually, up in a up in Queensland, I was
I was born, so had a quite anadventurous childhood.
Moved around quite a lot with myparents and my brothers, and I
think uh went to five differentprimary schools, so I kind of
changed school every year.
And oh what was but it was anamazing childhood.

SPEAKER_00 (22:38):
What was behind the moving?

SPEAKER_01 (22:39):
Mostly my dad.
He uh he loved he wasadventurous, he loved uh to be
in the northern parts ofAustralia, which we call the top
end.
So this is Northern Territory,this is the Kimberley, up around
Cape York in Queensland.
And he actually grew up here inSydney, but when he got to his
his 30s and started to, youknow, want to just get away from

(23:00):
from the city and and travel andcamp and fish, he He went up
there and he he took my mom withhim and then they had us three
boys when when we were quiteyoung.
Sorry, when when they were uh upthere as well.
So we were quite young movingaround as a result of that and
had a few different jobs.
Uh but when you're young, youknow, you you just think that's

(23:21):
what everybody had when theywhen they grew up, and we were
in these tiny little schools, orwe we go uh you know to these
really remote parts of Australiacamping and yeah, really
appreciate that now that I canlook back on it.

SPEAKER_00 (23:35):
Yeah.
Was there a could you put afinger on like his industry if I
said what did your dad do otherthan move around and enjoy life
and and have various jobs?
Was there a particular type ofwork that he specialized in?

SPEAKER_01 (23:49):
Yeah, so he worked for an organization that would
assist indigenous communities interms of uh getting some
business infrastructure and youknow, various ways that they can
generate income into thecommunity, whether that's
selling artworks or whetherthat's uh you know kind of
having people come and visit thecommunities.

(24:10):
These these are really remoteparts of Australia which you
often need permits to enter.
And we would be, you know, inthese small regional towns,
which would be the biggest placenearby with facilities, and then
he'd go off into these, youknow, really remote indigenous
communities, which could be twoor three days' drive away.
So yeah, we were just young kidswho jump in the back of the car

(24:30):
and head off and go on some ofthese adventures with him.

SPEAKER_00 (24:34):
That's very cool.
So you it sounds like you hadthe opportunity to maybe mix in
with some of these indigenouscommunities a bit as well, or
was that was that part of it?

SPEAKER_01 (24:44):
Yeah.
Yeah, we've got some awesomephotos from when we were young,
just little blonde-haired kids,you know, in these in these
communities and kind of walkingaround in our in our nappies and
catching lizards and frogs andall that fun stuff.

SPEAKER_00 (25:00):
Was it unusual for the kids in these communities?
Was it unusual to see, you know,the blonde kids with lighter
skin that that didn't grow up intheir same communities?
Was that unusual or were theywelcoming?
What was that?
What are your recollection uhrecollections of what that was
like to show up in these littletowns and communities?

SPEAKER_01 (25:19):
Yeah, the remote communities, definitely.
I mean, you would have you wouldhave uh you know small
communities and and then therewould be uh you know doctors and
teachers and nurses and uhpeople in similar positions to
my dad coming into thecommunities.
But I'm sure I'm sure we were abit of a novelty to a little
little blonde-haired kidsrunning around.

(25:41):
And and and even in the smallerkind of regional towns that we
uh lived in, you know, therewere there was still uh
opportunity to, you know, we weplayed sports and we went
fishing and you know, did thingsand went to school with uh, you
know, in indigenous kids aswell.
So I think uh probably from areally young age and and through
my dad would have a good youknow interest and and and I

(26:05):
guess some early knowledge inhow unique and how how amazing
the Australian indigenousculture is.
So yeah, that's that's beenquite cool to now go back to
these places a bit older and uhwith work and kind of think,
yeah, possibly that's a bigreason why I I ended up doing
these things.

SPEAKER_00 (26:24):
I I think so.
And and it's not just theAustralian indigenous community,
it's just the fact that you wereexposed.
I think, I don't know, you I'mjust thinking out loud, that you
were exposed to just differencesand that that is just so
eye-opening.
It causes so many people to wantto go explore and learn more
about the world.
I actually, as you were sharingthat, I remember my first real

(26:46):
experience similar to that, notnearly as cool as yours, but I
my brother and I had had theopportunity to travel to
Australia when I was 12.
He was a year younger, and wewere in Conundra, New South
Wales.
For me, felt pretty remote, likeon the other side of the planet
from where I grew up.
And in this small community, thekids there our age didn't see a

(27:08):
lot of people from the US, andespecially children from the US,
because it was not a touristyarea.
And the just remember the younggirls there were just so
fascinated by our accents.
And and they just wanted to theywanted to talk to us and they
wanted to hear us say theirnames.
So they'd say, say my nameagain, say my name again.
And it was a cool experience forme that I linked back to my

(27:32):
desire to travel and exploredifferent cultures because it
was the first time that I I'dhad an experience like that.
I can't imagine going into youknow some of these indigenous
communities like you were doingwhen you were young.
That's uh that's pretty damncool.
All right.
Did you at that time, let's say,roughly what age were you that
you remember this this type ofthing?

(27:52):
Was there a period of time thatyou felt like was the most
adventurous or interesting oryou know, as far as age?

SPEAKER_01 (28:00):
Look, from my earliest memories, three or four
years old, up until around aboutDelta Day.
Yeah, been on adventure.

SPEAKER_00 (28:10):
That's cool.

SPEAKER_01 (28:11):
Well, it it it has felt like that sometimes, but
I'll be honest, we did have wedid have a time around about
high school age, so 12 to 17,18, where we moved down to
Victoria, which is in the southof Australia, where my mom is
from.
And we'd been down there, youknow, it was cold and it's cold
winters down there, trust me.

(28:32):
And we you know knew that waswhere mum was from.
And when it came to high school,we we lived down there.
So suddenly things sh that Iremember that I remember that
dramatic shift where suddenlythe days were more, you know,
you you go to play sport and yougo ride your bike after school,

(28:55):
but there wasn't really muchelse to do.
And you know, whereas we hadthis crazy upbringing where
after school we'd kind of rundown to our our river just down
the road and and fish and catch,you know, catch brim and cook
them in the sand.
And that was on a Tuesday afterschool when you're when you're
eight.
So suddenly when you're a littlebit older, and I think, you

(29:17):
know, it was probably then whereI realized, oh, this this feels
a bit more normal existence, andhey, you can stay in one place
and at one school and and andmake friends.

SPEAKER_00 (29:27):
Did you but did you I'm sure you had mixed feelings,
but I guess did you feel likethat was at the time, did you
feel like that was a good thingto have a little bit more
stability?
Or did you were you resentfulfor your parents or whatever
choices?
We don't have to go too far inthe the dynamics, but were you
were you resentful when youmoved south?

SPEAKER_01 (29:46):
Not not resentful.
I think uh you're still a child,so you're still have you're
still having fun, you know.
That that was the main thing,and it was it it was probably
just consciously orsubconsciously noticeably
different to childhood, but itdidn't completely fall away
because my my parents separatedand we would go and spend time

(30:08):
with my dad.
He stayed up there.
So you know, it wasn't it wasn'tgo up there for four days over
Christmas.
We'd sometimes, you know, I'dI'd get a whole a whole term off
school and go go stay with himfor three months up there, and
maybe he was meant to put me inschool, maybe he wasn't, but I I
don't remember doing much schoolup there.
But it was, you know, it was itwas long, it was uh a long

(30:31):
period of time to to still stayin touch with that part of
Australia.
And I I still get those feelingswhen I go back there now.

SPEAKER_00 (30:39):
Yeah, yeah.
If I were if we were to go backin a time machine to when you
were, I don't know, fifteen,sixteen, something like that,
and I asked you, hey, youngPeter, 15-year-old Peter, what
do you want to be when you growup?
Do you remember what you wouldhave said?

SPEAKER_01 (30:54):
Look, I probably couldn't pinpoint it to that
age.
I I think it shifted aroundquite a bit, but uh there were
there was definitely there wasdefinitely a time where I
remember I wanted to be aforensic psychologist.
I think I think I was watchingtoo much CSI.

SPEAKER_00 (31:10):
Okay, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 (31:11):
That was kind of the that was kind of the the show,
and you know, didn't happen, ofcourse, but that that's
something I'd remember probablytelling people around that age.
And then and then I felt like Iwanted to work outdoors.
So it was never really a fromyou know eight years old I
wanted to be a marine biologist,but I remember I wanted to not

(31:33):
be in an office.
That was quite a strong feeling.
I'd probably given up on thewatching CSI by then as well.
And I think I I kind of thought,hey, why can't I go work in a
national park or something likea a ranger?
Would have been quite cool andprobably got as far as looking
at that process.
But yeah, then as I got towardsthe end of high school, started

(31:56):
talking about what to study atuni, I I I went more that that
university pathway into what Ido what I studied.

SPEAKER_00 (32:04):
Did so when you mentioned the forensic
psychology, CSI.
What I think of CSI, like when Ithink back to the episodes that
I'd seen, it actually is veryattractive to I think people
that end up working in tourismbecause they're not in office,
you know, they're out and about,they're it's about curiosity,
discovery, new things.

(32:26):
It's like I can see theparallel.
I don't know if you everconsidered it, but I as I heard
you say that, I was like, yeah,that kind of kind of makes sense
because every day you wake upand it's something new, right?
In a sense.
Yeah, true.
Yeah, maybe maybe I'm justmaking making things up.
But let's talk about thedifference between your parents.
Like, if would your father havelike if you said, Yeah, I want

(32:48):
to work outside, I don't want tobe in an office, would your
father have been more supportivethan your mother, or would it be
about the same?
Did they have two because yourmom was pretty adventurous?
She went up north with him anddid that for a while.
So I'm curious, like, would youget like my for example, my dad
was maybe more like your dad.
We spent my summers with my dadtraveling around, flying
balloons, going to Australia,doing these things.

(33:09):
And then my mother was theacademic who was in school for
many years and worked hard andhad a path and a plan.
And and I remember I went to touni for about a year and dropped
out to go join the army becauseI wanted adventure.
My my dad thought it was prettycool.
My mom was very upset.
So I'm curious, like with yourparents, was there did they both

(33:31):
kind of support you equally andwhat you wanted to do, or was
there some conflict there?

SPEAKER_01 (33:35):
Yeah, okay.
So 100% they both supported meand my plans equally.
And we're kind of those parentsthat were like, hey, as long as
you do something you're you'rehappy with or something you love
doing, you can do whatever youwant.

SPEAKER_00 (33:51):
It wasn't it wasn't do this because more like that.

SPEAKER_01 (33:55):
Both of them were like that, yeah.
That's cool.
All right.
My my my dad, he had a fatherwho was the opposite to that,
who wanted him to be anaccountant and work in an office
and you know, have a 40-yearcareer and get a Rolex.
And my dad rebelled against thatbecause, you know, he he he

(34:15):
didn't want to, I guess, plainlyspeaking, and and and that's why
he went and did what he did andwent on a more adventurous
route.
And yeah, my my mom, I think shewas just uh happy if we were
happy.
So, you know, um that was alwaysprobably something I uh at the
time, you know, felt very littlepressure to to have to rush and

(34:39):
make a decision and and changemy mind a few times.
But yeah, that that is uh youknow something I can look back
and say, hey, but it probablydid have a big bearing on how I
I ended up doing what I do aswell, because you know, could
could have easily been talkedinto other things, or you know,
everybody hears that you'd loveto study marine biology and and

(35:01):
and do that in unique, butthere's no jobs.
And I heard that a thousandtimes and didn't really care or
or thought, well, regardless,it's still gonna be a cool thing
to study, you know, and you candive and mark your 30 grand in
debt at the end of it without ajob.
But I'll I'll figure that out asI go.

SPEAKER_00 (35:17):
There's a few different types of people on the
planet.
And some of them, when they'reeighteen, are not thinking about
what are the career prospects.
It's just like what sounds funand cool, and then there's a
handful that are just thinking,okay, well, how am I gonna make
money doing this?
And and they will sit down andresearch what's the best way to
make a bunch of money at 18, youknow, and then they'll choose
that career path to go be alawyer or doctor or whatever.

(35:40):
And uh Yeah, so it'sinteresting.
So did you end up then going toschool for marine biology?
It sound it kind of sounds likeit, but I don't want to make
that assumption.

SPEAKER_01 (35:49):
Yeah, exactly.
So I I finished year twelve andthen I went across to Perth in
Western Australia and studied Istudied environmental
conservation, conservationbiology for the first couple of
years.
So a Bachelor of Science, andthen halfway through that I went
and had my first trip overseas.

(36:10):
I went to Southeast Asia andstarted diving in Thailand and
Vietnam, Philippines, and Ithought, wow, that's actually uh
pretty bloody cool going downand learning more about the
marine life underwater world.
And I was only one step awayfrom taking my conservation
biology degree towards marinescience.
So I I shifted a few things whenI got back to uni after that

(36:32):
time off, and then I I did myhonors in in marine science and
started to, I guess, feel like Iwas studying to be a marine
scientist, marine biologist.

SPEAKER_00 (36:42):
Where so you you've got a dad up north, mom down
south, and you went all the wayto the west for school.
It sounds like is that I'm akid, right?
Yeah.
That's right.
Was there some what was thatlike when you packed up?
And did you drive?
Did they did one of them go withyou?
Well, like what just what do youremember of going off to school
as far as dynamics in yourfamily?

SPEAKER_01 (37:04):
Yeah, okay.
I I think about this a bitbecause I had never been to
Western Australia, and it wasactually a recommendation from
my my careers advisor at schoolthat said B Way has a good
university for marine biology.
And my brother left home when hewas 18 and he he he went up to
to Darwin.
And I think I kind of wanted toget out of our town where we

(37:26):
went to school and and forge myown path.
And I had a couple of mates whowanted to do a similar thing.
They they weren't going overthere to study, but you know,
they knew they could find work,and we actually all uh set off
one morning.
I I remember this quite vividly,and we all had our own car.
And you know Australia's a bigcountry, so it takes we drove to

(37:46):
Perth, and that's about 3,500kilometers.

SPEAKER_00 (37:50):
And it's very it's a very beautiful scenic route,
isn't it?
I think I just in my mind Iimagine it being kind of flat.

SPEAKER_01 (37:57):
Yeah, flat and dry.
Yeah, I mean, I I thinkeverybody should do it once.
Once is probably enough.
There's a lot of uh there's alot of country where it's just
flat and you you're passing roadtrains, and it's called the
nullabor.
So the nullabore is is atreeless plain where you can
just see for miles without anyvegetation, and it's just kind
of a big well, not it not adesert, but it there's just not

(38:19):
a lot there.

SPEAKER_02 (38:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (38:21):
And you know, you're 18, so we were we were driving
10, 11 hours a day.
I don't even think I I drankcoffee back then, so I'm not
sure.
It was just kind of we were justrunning on that that youthful
energy that we're going to a newplace, and I I I would probably
do it differently now, you know,all in all in our own car
because we all we all wanted ourown car.
But yeah, our our our moms werekind of there at the side of the

(38:44):
road when we left, and we wekind of went around in a convoy
and s the four days laterarrived in our destination,
yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (38:53):
Which was your mom visibly upset that you were
going so far away?

SPEAKER_01 (38:57):
I think she knew I was in a room.

SPEAKER_00 (38:59):
Okay, see ya.
And all the moms went and dranka lot drank uh a bottle of wine
after you all left, I'm sure.
So alright.

SPEAKER_01 (39:06):
Yeah, she's uh yeah, she's kind of used to it.
Uh I think I'm the middle I'mthe middle boy, so three boys
all quite adventurous, and we'veall we've all left home, you
know, when we could.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (39:19):
When when did you say decide to take up scuba
diving?

SPEAKER_01 (39:22):
I did that, yeah.
So I was uh I was in Thailand.
I was on a I was on a you knowthree or four month trip through
through Asia, and everybody whowas in Thailand, especially you
know, backpack age, would go toa place called Kotao and scuba
dive.
And uh I definitely had that asas part of my uh intended trail

(39:44):
uh as I went, just you know,slowly making my way through
Thailand and just kind of tookto it, you know.
I I loved uh the training, doingthe course and learning the
theory behind it, and then Iguess learning the the biology,
oceanography aspects of it aswell.
And yeah, never really plannedto do it more than
recreationally, but I knew itwent hand in hand with a marine

(40:06):
science degree.
But that was when I that waswhere I started, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (40:11):
And the the trip to Southeast Asia, you said a few,
what, three or four months thatyou were backpacking around?

SPEAKER_01 (40:16):
I think it was meant to be three.
I think it was meant to bethree, but it stretched out to
about, yeah, five.

SPEAKER_00 (40:21):
So did you take a whole semester off from school
or how did you you didn't manageto squeeze that into a break, or
did you do I'm just kind ofcurious how that all because I
think Aussies, Kiwis, somepeople, even y Europeans,
probably more so than Americans,will take some sort of break, a
gap year or whatever, andthey'll just go back back around
Southeast Asia, for example.

(40:42):
So I'm just kind of curious howthat fit into your life.

SPEAKER_01 (40:45):
Yeah, okay, good question.
And I can I can distinctlyremember what triggered
Southeast Asia in my mind.
And well, actually, my my dadpassed away when I was in my
second year of uni.
So that was obviously that wasobviously, you know, uh a huge
thing to deal with.
And I ended up taking a year offuni and I went and worked for

(41:06):
six months, saved up a bit ofmoney, and I came across a
lonely planet on a you know,Southeast Asia on a shoestring.
It's like the how to travelbudget in different parts of the
world.
And I remember flicking through,and I'd probably heard about
Thailand and Indonesia and youknow a few other places around
Southeast Asia, but I didn'treally understand that part of

(41:26):
the world very well.
And I remember just reading thatyou could stay for three or four
Australian dollars at someplaces, and you know, chicken
and rice was fifty cents, andyou can get you can get fifty
cent beers.

SPEAKER_00 (41:39):
I thought, hang on, if I've got if I've got this,
that's the that's thebackpacker, that's the
backpacker decision makingprocess right there and the
digital nomad, and the digitalnomad process, because I'm
living that life.

SPEAKER_01 (41:50):
Yeah, let me ask you this.
It's probably yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (41:53):
If if if you would have because the way I heard you
describe that was I came acrossa Lonely Planet Southeast Asia
travel book.
If you'd happen to run across aLonely Planet South America or
Latin America travel book thatsaid you could do it for the
same costs and same prices, doyou I guess what I'm asking,
were you already do you thinkyou're already kind of inclined

(42:13):
to go to Asia, or was it justthat's the book, that's the
first book you picked up thatsaid you could get fifty cents
beers?

SPEAKER_01 (42:20):
Okay, well, um I guess Australians have a bit of
a love affair with Bali.

SPEAKER_00 (42:26):
So I had heard about I know, I've been to Bali.
Everybody there thought I wasfrom Australia just because of
the way I look, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (42:32):
Okay, yeah.
Yeah, so uh I I knew about that.
I hadn't been there.
I hadn't been overseas by thisstage.
So I was I think I was 19.
And it was where I started.
So I always wanted to yeah,there was something about there
was something about SoutheastAsia that really appealed to me.
And South America, similarprocess, kind of something

(42:54):
happened, or I heard about it,or I met some people from there,
or came across another LonelyPlanet book.
Um, but Southeast Asia I thinkis just such a ideal destination
for someone, you know, kind ofbetween 18 and 21, where
everything's everything's kindof easy, kind of forgiving.
You know, you don't need a lotof money to get there or to stay
there.
And it's uh and when you'rethere, you know, it's it's

(43:16):
suddenly this feeling of uhbeing completely free in a in in
another part of the world that'sso different to Australia.
So that was that was a bigappeal to see somewhere that
felt different, like I'd lefthome.

SPEAKER_02 (43:27):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (43:28):
And uh and then suddenly your conversations open
your open your eyes to well,maybe I can.
I didn't know I would go toCambodia, for example, but
everyone was going there andeveryone was saying, Oh, you
have to go there, it's sodifferent to here.
And so I went there and and thenup to to Lao.
And so yeah, I I still loveSoutheast Asia, it's one of my

(43:50):
favorite parts of the world.
Um, and I think a big reason isbecause I was so I was so
immersed while I was there.
This was before you could kindof travel with Wi-Fi and scroll
on your phones on a bus ride.
You you'd have you'd have onebook, you'd have you'd have your
little uh you know, music playerif it worked and if it had
battery.
Otherwise, you'd just stare outthe window on these long bus

(44:11):
trips and look at look at peoplegoing about their life, and that
really resonated with me.
You know, it it kind of uh mademe curious about how how
somebody grew up there comparedto where I grew up.

SPEAKER_00 (44:25):
Does do you think there was a point, or do you
remember a point where you wentfrom kind of the the marine
sciences to somebody that wasreally going to be traveling and
leading expeditions or because Ican imagine marine sciences
means oh I probably want totravel the world and do marine
sciences.
I don't know.
I I guess I'm curious.

(44:46):
Were you th already thinking youwould be traveling the world as
a marine scientist, or was theresome point where you said, you
know what, I just really want togo travel and explore I don't
know if uh it's not a very clearquestion, but I'm curious what's
coming up for you when I rambleon like Yeah, no, I I get you so

SPEAKER_01 (45:04):
When I was studying, we would talk about kind of
three pathways that you couldtake out of uni.
One of them was to stay inresearch and keep keep
researching.
One of them was to get intopublic domain.
So, you know, you might work forthe Department of Fisheries,
Department of Environment,competitive all of these options
are competitive, really.

(45:25):
And then the third was moreprivate.
So that's what I ended up doing,working for a consultant,
probably more office-based,writing reports than I would
have liked.
And that's what we really spokeabout.
And you know, I was grateful tohave been given an opportunity
to work in in consulting, but itwasn't really what I I f foresaw
myself, you know, doing for a asa career.

SPEAKER_00 (45:48):
Yeah, because then let me ask you this real quick,
Peter, because the three pathsyou just described on the
surface sound, I don't want tosay sedentary.
Sedentary is not the right word,but location specific.
So I imagine doing research, youmight be at a university, you're
in a lab somewhere all the time.
Maybe you're close to the ocean,and maybe you're doing something
locally, and fisheries and stuffwould probably be tied to a

(46:11):
specific region.
The consulting private soundsall tied to a specific region.
Is that is that kind of rightwith those three paths?

SPEAKER_01 (46:20):
Yeah, I'd say for the majority of it, if every
position would be locationdependent, and maybe you'd get
lucky and you know getassignments to go travel and and
research in other parts of theworld or work in other parts of
the world.
But for the most part, that thatwas kind of your line of
thinking would be where do Iwant to live and work.

SPEAKER_00 (46:39):
Okay, and it sounds like you wanted to go a
different direction.
So let's pick up there.
And what did you not like aboutthose three paths and what did
you really want to do at that?

SPEAKER_01 (46:49):
Well, I think I could I could envision a perfect
lifestyle around about that agewhen I was out of uni and I was
working, and I could I could seewhere my pathway was taking me
if I just stayed doing what Iwas doing.
And I could also see anopportunity to be able to and

(47:13):
travel for travel as a job,really.
But mind you, I I listed thosethree options and I didn't know
this at the time, and nobodydid.
No nobody had heard aboutworking as a marine biologist on
an expedition.
Expedition job.
Right?
Yeah, and I swear, I swear if weknew about that, everyone would
have just been lining up and youknow, get out of my way.

(47:36):
I want that job.
What do you mean you can travelto a place like Antarctica with
this degree I've just earned andget paid, and that's my job now,
you know.
We w went this was this was2014, 15 when I when I
graduated.

SPEAKER_00 (47:52):
So the the industry would have definitely, you know,
existed, but it would have stillbeen difficult to come across
anybody who works in it or uhthey weren't probably putting
flyers up at the at theuniversity saying come be a
biologist on our Antarcticacruises or our cruise to the
through the South Pacific.
It wasn't actively recruiting oncampus for, huh?

SPEAKER_01 (48:15):
Yeah, exactly.
I don't think they needed toactively recruit because you
know Yeah, they don't need to asthe but how did you figure it
out?

SPEAKER_00 (48:22):
So how did you figure it out?

SPEAKER_01 (48:24):
Well, it links back quite neatly into my trip to
Southeast Asia, in a way,because I took that year off and
I left Perth and I did anotherroad trip up to Darwin, and
about halfway along that on theWA coast is a place called
X-mouth and the Ningaloo Reef.
And the Ningaloo Reef isamazing, it's it's almost the

(48:47):
the west coast version of GreatBarrier Reef, but on the on the
west west coast, and that isfamous for a number of things,
but uh mainly whale sharks comeinto that reef to feed, only for
a few months of the year.
And I always knew you could dothis tour which took you out to
go swim with them.
And you know, these are thesehuge kind of 10 meter plus whale

(49:09):
sharks, and I really wanted todo that, so I I did that on the
way driving north, and when Iwas on that boat, I was uh I was
on there by myself because thethe mate, the couple of mates
who I was doing this road tripwith, they they didn't want to
go out on the boat.
So I was kind of just chattingto whoever was on the boat, and
I met this one guy, and he wasuh a few years older, but he had

(49:32):
studied marine biology as well,so we kind of naturally just hit
it off, and he was he wasworking more kind of in
ecotourism around that part ofthe world.
And we we swapped details, and Ithink back then you kind of had
someone on Facebook, and youknow that that was what you did.
So I I had him on I had him onFacebook, but by this stage he

(49:53):
he wasn't working inexpeditions, but shortly after
he started to and he was uh youknow on his Facebook profile,
suddenly posting these picturesof him in Antarctica, South
Georgia with King Penguins, uhup in the Arctic, taking photos
of polar bears in Papua NewGuinea, and and something

(50:15):
obviously clicked, and Ithought, okay, this guy, he
studied what I studied.
We we kind of have kept intouch, and and then I asked him,
I I still didn't know exactlywhat he did.
I thought he was maybe a NAT geophotographer and had a bit of a
career change.
But he said, Yeah, look, I'm inexpedition cruising, it's it's
kind of new, it's kind of uhbooming at the moment, so

(50:35):
there's a bit of work around ifyou're interested.
You have the degree for it, kindof have the uh you know the the
desire to want to do that as acareer, so you'll you'll
probably be in a good positionto start with.
And funnily enough, as as itgoes on, I ended up uh working
at the same company as him, andwe we actually worked together.
He was the expedition leader andI was his assistant about two or

(50:58):
so years after I started in theindustry.
We we ended up working togetheron the same ship.
So that was kind of uh kind ofsweet how that all came about.
And uh yeah, still friends tothis day.

SPEAKER_00 (51:08):
Sometimes those connections are pretty damn
important, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01 (51:12):
Yeah, you never know it at the time, but you can look
back and think, well, you know,maybe if I decided to go another
day or or I didn't go because mymates didn't want to go.

SPEAKER_00 (51:22):
Or you didn't have Facebook or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 (51:25):
Yeah, yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 (51:27):
That's it.
Yeah, it's uh it's pretty cool.
It's and it's one of the thingsthat I've noticed in a lot of
the conversations we have hereon the podcast is most people,
you know, that I chat with havea moment like that or or
somebody that maybe didn't seemlike it was making a huge
influence at the time, but thenit turned out to be that way.
But I also want to ask you, ifyou don't mind, I'd like to ask

(51:47):
you it's a little personal, Iguess, but part of what also put
all these wheels in the motion,actually, it sounds like was
your father's passing.

SPEAKER_02 (51:55):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (51:55):
Yep.
And the way you described himearlier as being kind of that
type of personality, that typeof person that's just gonna go
and take risks and take thesechances, which obviously had a
lot of influence on you.
To kind of tie all thattogether, do you because what I
hear is like a legacy.
I I kind of hear this legacything, and even with the timing

(52:16):
of his passing, that really puta lot of wheels into motion for
you.
And I'm just wondering if thisis just what I'm making up in my
head or is this something thatyou've considered as well?

SPEAKER_01 (52:24):
It's all it's all very connected to the decisions
I was making around that age.
And you know, it's uh it's thatkind of anytime's tragic time to
lose a father, of course.
But when you're, you know, kindof uh in those real formative
years of your life and probablyjust starting to see yourself as
an adult who can have adultconversations with your parents

(52:48):
and I guess get theirperspective on a similar time to
their life, or you start to seethem as you know, not not your
parents, but people who have hadtheir whole life and can kind of
offer so much in terms of uh youknow guidance and advice, or you
know, especially like a a son totheir father.
You you want to say, What howdid you do this?

(53:10):
Like how did you kind of processuh this situation?
Or uh you know, I'd have athousand questions now.
I I I'd love that opportunity toask.
But the the thing for me is Iwas obviously grieving and a
normal existence felt like theopposite thing to do or to keep
to keep going about my what Iwas to keep on the path I was

(53:35):
on.
It felt like I needed adisruption and a a big one.
So for me that was uni's notwhere I want to be right now.
I don't I don't want to bearound, you know, I don't want
to sit in a classroom, I don'twant to, you know, laugh in
conversations with people when Idon't feel like I, you know, I I
didn't I didn't want to be backin in the life I had before he

(53:57):
passed away.
So I kind of upended everythingand and that's when I took that
year off to just give myself achance to, you know, ha have any
number of paths that I couldtake from there.
And wasn't really the plan to gooverseas, wasn't really the plan
to stay in somewhere likeSoutheast Asia for five months,
but um I think you know thatthat 12 months of time was a

(54:18):
good amount for me to be able tofirst of all go through the the
grieving process and and Iactually I moved up to Darwin,
which is where he lived, and Ispent about six months up there
working um with my stepmom whowas who was with him at the
time.
So spent spent kind of a lot oftime, you know, in his space,

(54:41):
not not down in Perth, away fromeveryone.
So I I felt like I was up thereand and I was where he would
have been.
And then I kind of got throughthat, or well, you know, as much
as a a young man probably thinksthey got through the death of
their father.
And I was like, okay, I need Ineed adventure and I need I need
a stimulus and I need to I needto be shocked a little bit

(55:03):
because everything feels alittle bit safe here, you know,
in our in our very lovelyexistence we have in uh a place
like Australia.
So it would have had a bigbearing in the fact that I I
chose Southeast Asia and youknow went to places where
there's a lot of in your face,you know, poverty and just uh as

(55:26):
grim as it sounds, probablysadness in in these parts of the
world where you're probablypowerless to really change
anything, but it almost uh italmost broadens your perception
of how how the world really is.
And yeah, maybe that was maybe Ijust had a big capacity for for
something like that because youknow I'd felt this this pain

(55:49):
from his death that suddenly,you know, it was like, oh, okay,
well, life's just not a littlerose-colored journey you go on,
it's it's it's all these otherbigger things that are actually
what what's really important.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (56:05):
No, yeah.
I I mean, uh obviously given thechoice, you I I know, I trust
that you would have so you couldstill ask him those questions
and still connect with him.
And sometimes when whensomething like that happens
earlier in life, it gives us anopportunity to kind of have that
moment that some people don'tget until it's too late.

(56:26):
You know, that moment of, okay,life is doesn't last forever.
And we've got one chance to fillit with what we need to fill it
with.
And sometimes when we have aloss early a little earlier on,
it gives us a little bit more ofthat like, okay, I'm not
invincible because or you'relike me that didn't really have
any major losses until I was,you know, in my, I'd say my

(56:47):
mid-40s when I got divorced.
I was just thought I wasinvincible.
I still kind of think I'minvincible.
But my parents are still alive,so I haven't had to deal with
that yet.
And yeah, it's uh it's when wesee people that, you know, go
through divorces and then all ofa sudden they sell all their
stuff and go start traveling orthey change careers or they they
realize that, hey, I'm gonna dosomething here.

(57:09):
And it sounds like maybe you hadthat opportunity at a let's say
an opportune time, but it soundslike maybe you had a little bit
of that experience that not allof us get.
Fortunately, I mean it's not apleasant experience, but did you
have a chance to chat with himbefore his passing?
Uh, just curious, was there, youknow, did you have kind of those
those moments of you knowadvice, encouragement, or was it

(57:31):
more unexpected?

SPEAKER_01 (57:32):
Look, it was um yeah, kind of both of those
things because we we knew he wasunwell, but he he got sick very
quickly, and then suddenly itwas phone call, you should come
up here.
We're not sure what's gonnahappen.
There is a chance that he's notgonna make it.
So did get that opportunity togo and be by his by his bedside
when he was when he was reallyunwell, and you know, we we'd

(57:54):
had those conversations that hehe was dying.
And I guess maybe my mindcreated this thing where it was
going, well the opportunity'sthere to have a chat, so let's
have the chat.
And kind of uh kind of didn'tdidn't really, and you know, I
I'm not I'm not uh ever going toknow exactly you know the

(58:17):
reasons why it w it wasn't likea you know sit down and kind of
hey son, you know, this is thisis life, and you know, I I I
think death death's such apersonal experience as well.
And I'd I'd probably neverreally know what my my dad was
going through at the time aswell.
I I I do see it as um you knowbeing fortunate to be by his

(58:39):
side when he he died, um,because you know, that is when
you want to have your loved onesaround and you know if there's
any if there's anything you cantake from it that's slightly
positive, it's the fact that wewere able to be up there as a
family together.
Um but yeah in terms of thinkingabout those questions, you know,

(59:00):
I I I now would have momentsalmost on the daily where I
think I'm a similar age to mydad.
And you know, he was uh he was58 when he passed away, and I I
distinctly remember being 29 andI felt and I still I still feel
pretty young to be honest, but II still felt so young at 29 and

(59:23):
I remember thinking I am I'm atthe halfway point of when he
died of you know, so it's likeif if the same thing happens to
me, I'm kind of I've lived overhalf my life already, and it and
it and it just took me took me alot to get my head around that
and and maybe a little bit of ahey, you know what, uh some
things aren't some things aren'tthat important that we spend a

(59:44):
lot of time fixated on.
And it's really about justliving life because it can be
taken away unexpectedly orbefore you think it's your time.
So yeah, now I'm now I'm 37, andyou know, my dad was 30, 35, 36
when he met my mom, and he tookher on this crazy adventure, of
course, and she was she wasyounger.

(01:00:06):
So I you know, I I think of allthese things now that would kind
of be nice to say, hey dad, I Ialmost feel like you when you
were my age, and I'm sure youwere kind of going through
similar things that that I am.
Uh but yeah, you kind of justyou you r recall on the times
you did have together, and youknow, you you you feel almost

(01:00:28):
like you you were guided throughthat for your for these times in
your life as well.
And I've still got my mom, youknow, and my mom's like amazing
in every way.
So she her her and my dad, theyseparated, but they always had a
a really you know, it was it wasstill a loving relation post
relationship, you know, that wasstill both our mom and dad.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:49):
Well, my parents are divorced.
I there was no spider.
Yeah.
Is there is there something inmind if if I asked you, hey
Peter, what's the what's thething that you've accomplished
since you lost your dad that youwish you could tell him the
most, or the thing that youthink that would make him the
most proud?
What would it be?

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:03):
Ooh, um there's there's probably one answer to
this, which I I'll think of downthe trail after this podcast,
because I have had moments whereI thought my dad would be uh you
know proud of me now doing this.
Probably there'd be a hundredthings.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:20):
Probably a bunch of them because because I'm
thinking he like if there was asocial media that we could post
things for our for our familythat are no longer with us, it's
like, hey dad, I'm I'm inAntarctica.
Hey dad, um you know, I'm withpolar bears and clients and I'm
I'm living this life exploringand fishing, and I don't know if

(01:01:41):
you still fish, if that's athing or not, but just these
things that I can imagine belike, hey dad, look, look, look
what I'm doing.
Yeah.
And as a tribute, not as abragging, but as a tribute to
like, geez, dad, you know, Iprobably wouldn't be doing these
things if it wasn't for you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:55):
Yeah, definitely.
And the example that comes tomind is, you know, and probably
like what I'd consider one of myproudest moments is leading an
expedition because you are theface of the expedition product
and the face of the team, andI'm not naturally a very uh
outgoing or extrovertedpersonality type.

(01:02:19):
The position calls upon me tostep into that and you know, be
on stage and and I guess be apresence and make big decisions.
And I guess there was a realsense of personal pride when I
realized that I was doing that,you know, not the fur the first
one's always the toughest oneand and and the big relief when

(01:02:39):
you do a sick have a successfulexpedition, but then to
repeatedly, you know, prove toyourself and prove to others
that you're capable.
And yeah, I reckon there'd be amoment where he'd probably see
me, you know, in that littlefraction of what it is being an
expedition leader on stage, kindof presenting the finished

(01:03:01):
product and the team, and kindof I I would think, you know,
that that's well done.
You know, for getting yourselfinto that position.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:10):
I love that.
As I listen to you share that, Iimagine my my son, you know,
I've got a 19-year-old son, andI've worked in tourism for a
while, I've led not nothing tothe lips, and I've you know,
kind of been in charge of somethings.
And so for me to imagine seeingmy son Jackson, you know, as an
expedition leader on anAntarctica cruise or what or
whatever, just like, wow, howfreaking cool is that?

(01:03:33):
Because they're always your kid.
So when your kid grows up anddoes stuff like that, it's just
like how freaking cool.
So I'm sure you'd be veryvalued.
Thank you for sharing that.
That was not my plan to to gothat deep into things, and I
know it wasn't your plan.
Um, but I really appreciate youopening up and sharing that
because somebody needs to hearthese messages, right?
Somebody needs to hear thesemessages, whether it's a father

(01:03:56):
or son or whatever.
It's um because we all haveregrets, but we also have
inspiration and motivation andthings that keep us going.
So thank you for sharing that.
I do want to make sure we don'tmiss any important steps because
kind of where we left off beforewe, you know, got into the
conversation of your father andhis legacy was kind of around
you mentioned that you had theguy that you met when you were

(01:04:19):
swimming with the whale sharks,and then you worked for a couple
of years and ended up workingwith him.
And I want to touch on some ofthe other highlights that have
happened since then to kind ofget you to the point where you
are now.
So I I'm not sure where to pickup on that, but what pops into
your mind?

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:33):
Okay, well, um, look, I was very lucky that the
company I first started workingfor in Expedition Cruising, a
company called Silver Sea, uh,they had three ships.
And when I looked at theirwebsite, you know, they go all
over the world.
Uh I I forget all the numbersnow, but you know, every
continent, polar regions,tropical regions.
So I I started in the industryand at a company where I didn't

(01:04:54):
really have to ever leave orlook for other opportunities.
Opportunities came by, and I wasprobably very fortunate in the
fact that I could go to a placelike Antarctica, but because I
was Australian and my managerknew I grew up in you know the
northern parts of Australia,which is actually a an amazing
expedition destination initself, and and Silver Sea goes

(01:05:16):
there in the in the Kimberley.
So I was a logical fit to go tothe Kimberley, and then you
know, you kind of you kind of uhfinesse your polar guiding
skills and your tropical guidingskills, and you become probably
more of a generalist in how youcan work on ships.
You know, you're not you're notreally uh specialized to one
particular region or polarversus tropical.

(01:05:36):
So I just it's one of thosecareers you just you you say yes
to everything because you wantto, not because uh you know you
get your contracts 12-18 monthsin advance, and they say, well,
we want you to fly to Greenlandto join the ship here, and then
you're going to finish, youknow, in in Canada two months
later, and then we want you tostart the next one in Costa Rica
and finish down in Terra delFuego.
And I just I I read and sign itstraight away and send it back

(01:05:59):
and like, yep, I'm sure.
Like, of course I'll do that.
That sounds amazing.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:04):
A coup a couple couple things on that, because
you mentioned silver, is itsilver seas or silver sea?

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:10):
Silver seas, right?
Silver Sea.
Silver Sea expeditions, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:13):
Okay, yeah, yeah.
So what I noticed is when youand I first spoke, I uh had made
a mention on LinkedIn that youwere gonna be coming out of the
show.
And all of a sudden I startedlike making all these
connections with people atSilver Sea Expeditions.
I just and I noticed like, oh, Ithink that's connected to Peter.
And then people would startsaying, Oh yeah, I used to work
with Peter.
I you know, I worked with himfor a while.
He's great.
I'm so excited to to hear his uhhis conversation with you.

(01:06:37):
So I want to mention that in thesense that there's people still
there that are really payingattention to what you're doing
and and obviously think veryhighly of you.
So that's super exciting for me.
I hope that's exciting for youas well.
So I'm happy to be.

(01:07:04):
So I heard you use the word coldtwice, and it's not lost to me
that we're having conversationsabout places like Greenland and
Antarctica and all these places.
Do you like the cold?
Is that like something youactually like about it?
Or I just curious.
Like I I know it's part of thejob, but do you like it?

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:21):
I like a balance, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:23):
And a balance is a big thing.
Yeah, that's that's probablyFahrenheit.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:28):
Yeah, okay.
Sorry, a balance of extremes.
Um I go I go from Antarctica andmy next contract will be 35 35
Celsius in in the tropics andyou know, swap swap parkers and
waterproof gear for board shortsand and sandals.
And you know, that that wasagain back to the the fact that
I I kept saying yes toeverything because I was getting

(01:07:51):
this amazing balance with mywith my uh you know contracts
that I was getting, but also thethe different activities you get
to do on this as well.
So I wouldn't say I wouldn't sayI necessarily prefer one over
the other.
I I do think polar regions arethe domain of expedition.
You know, that's kind of wherewhen we when we talk about the

(01:08:14):
the early explorers, uh famousnames who went down and
discovered Antarctica and hadthese harrowing stories of
survival, and you know, we weread books about them now and we
watch documentaries, or ifyou're fortunate enough, you go
to these places and you see thehuts that they overwintered in,
and it's it's kind of it'salmost the part of the world

(01:08:36):
which is going to ask the mostof somebody to come down because
that's where it's mostchallenging, you know, it's uh
crazy storms and weather andit's inhospitable.
So if you want to feel like yougo away and you go on a proper
expedition, then you go to thepolar regions like that.
But in saying that, you know,these days we do it so

(01:08:58):
comfortably on luxury expeditionships, and you can be in a place
like that and and see the hutwhere they where they survived
and ate penguin eggs and sealmeat, and you know, then you
learn about that, and thenyou'll go back and have a nice
hot shower and you know havesome wine, a caviar over dinner,
and yeah, yeah.
Sit it sit in the hot tub.
So it's a little bit of a crazyjuxtaposition.

(01:09:19):
But let me let me ask you.
Yeah, you just have to be.
Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:22):
Well, I just want to ask uh an example is the polar
plunge, which I've um I haven'tdone it, but I've seen it, I've
heard it, I've heard a littlebit about it.
Which in in my mind, when I saythat, maybe I'm saying it wrong,
is when the the passengerssometimes have the opportunity
to jump into the polar water andthen very quickly get back out.
Oh yeah.
I may I'm not even gonna ask youif you've done it.

(01:09:43):
I'm assuming you've done it,probably a few times, but is
that something like is isexhilarating for someone like
you, or is are the expeditionleaders like, yeah, I've done
that, I don't need to do that,I'm just here to supervise, or
is it something you actuallywant to do with the clients?

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:59):
Well there's two different people, essentially.
You you'd be pretty hard pressedto find an expedition leader,
expedition guide who hasn't donethe polar plunge, because it's
kind of a rite of passage, youknow.
And we would usually try and doone each season, whether that's
uh in in in the Antarctic, up inthe Arctic, because they're both

(01:10:20):
polar plungers, and even betterif you've done both.
Some are a bit more crazy in thefact that they'll do it every
opportunity they can.
Um, you know, I I'll see how I Ifeel.
The reason you do a polarplunge, it's gonna be the best
hot shower you've ever hadstraight after.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:37):
Does it hurt though?
Does the hot water hurt?

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:39):
Uh it's a good pain.
It's a good pain.
It's yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's uh yeah, I haven't been ona ship yet that's run out of hot
water, so you can have a youknow 20-minute hot shower and
slowly heat yourself back up.
And they're pretty fun about it.
You know, there's pump-up music,everybody's in line, kind of
dancing and in their robes,ready to do it, and sucking each
other up.
There's normally the bar teamare down there with a bit of

(01:11:00):
liquid courage to help peopleget over the line and and
finally jump.
Uh, but yeah, it's mostly funand it's it's pretty safe.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:07):
I think I pretty safe.
I think the last video I saw,and maybe I missed it before.
I haven't watched a lot ofvideos of this, but I seem to
recall like don't your past youryour clients, your guests, like
you tie a rope around them,right?
So like when they jump in justin case they can't get back to
the ladder?

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:22):
Is that true or am I missing something?
No, no, that that tends to bekind of industry standard these
days.
Everyone who plunges will havegone through a medical
assessment, so not everybody whowants to can.
You know, you do need a signlike that as a sided waiver.
Yeah, it's it's fun until uh youknow people kind of think, hmm,

(01:11:42):
maybe I don't have the theticker, you know, or have i i in
a condition medically where theythey probably shouldn't expose
themselves or something likethat.
So it's all uh yeah, it's allit's all uh vetoed by by the
medical team and you have theropes on there.
People people learn to swimpretty fast um if they don't
know how to swim when they uhwhen they jump in there.

(01:12:04):
But the ropes just a little bit,you know, sometimes there's uh
sometimes there's a lot offlapping around, which isn't
really getting them closer towhere they need to get to.
I've so you can give them alittle nudge.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:16):
Because I've been around enough guides and I've
been around enough clients thatI I can imagine like you've got
clients that all week are movingreally slow.
And I'm not knocking them,they're on vacation.
They can move whatever speedthey want to move at.
But you've got clients that justseem like, wow, this person
moves really slow.
They're always the last one tobreakfast, they're always the
last one to the zodiac orwhatever.

(01:12:37):
And then as soon as they jumpoff the deck, you're like, holy
cow, I had no idea that personcould move that fast.
Is that or I'm just imaginingthis, but I I suspect you guys
are like, now he's moving reallyfast, or she or whatever, right?

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:50):
Yeah, so yeah, it's funny, right?
And and sometimes you'll onlyhave one ladder to get back up.
So two people jump at a time,and that can create some quite
interesting relationshipdynamics, especially if the guy
the guy forgets that he, youknow, husband and wife and then.

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:07):
He's pushing her away from the ladder as he's
climbing out.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:09):
Yeah, that's yeah, no, I've seen it all.
I've seen it all.
And uh you stay you stay out ofthat.
You let them decide.

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:15):
Do you guys do that on purpose?
That kind of sounds like you'reasking for trouble.
You should not let couples thatare traveling like that are
married or in a romanticrelationship, you should not let
them both jump at the same time,would be my my cons my
consultation for a newexpedition company.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:30):
They they should just have the conversation
before they jump.
So they're both on the same pagewith who should be getting out
first.
Well, wait a minute.

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:38):
You've never been married yet, have you?
I can tell.

unknown (01:13:43):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:44):
We haven't even got to that part of the
conversation.
But I can just tell because yousay oh, just discuss it first
because I can't I was, you know,people that have been married
for a while, or or do even morethe ones that are divorced,
recognize that you can have allkinds of agreements in the
beginning.
That that stuff tends to changereally quickly when things get
hot or cold.
So anyway.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:04):
Yeah.
All right, yeah, I'm seeingthat.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:06):
Enough of that.
Peter, uh so so you're workingwith Silversea, and then kind of
what are the kind of the nextbig we're talking about jumps.
Let's say what is the next bigjump that kind of moved you
closer to where you're at now.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:18):
So I got an opportunity as a uh what's
called a staff assistant, whichis more of an admin role on
board.
The thing when I first gotoffered employment with
Silversea was you could work asa lecturer, which is you know
giving presentations and andguiding, but there was a big
backlog of marine biologists whocould work as lecturers.
So I would have had to waitabout 18 months for that

(01:14:39):
contract to come around.
And then my manager gave me anopportunity to come on board
earlier, and it was toAntarctica as a staff assistant,
and you know, kind of a bit of adifferent role.
You're not presenting, you'renot giving lectures, um, but
you're still part of the teamand you're still you know going
out there and enjoyingeverything and you know doing a
bit more admin work on thecomputer in the office.

(01:15:00):
But that opportunity put mereally close to the expedition
leader in terms of working inthe same space and learning
about the planning and howthings kind of you know really
come together on an expedition,not just with the team, but all
the other departments.
And suddenly I was like, whoa,okay, we don't just drive a boat
around and show people penguins.
There's this whole otherconflicting uh well, you know,

(01:15:23):
working together but conflictingpriorities of what needs to
happen on a ship for it to besuccessful.
And I got maybe two, three yearskind of in that position, a
couple of promotions.
I'd also worked as a lecturer, anaturalist by that stage, and I
got given the question, do youwant to work towards becoming an
expedition leader?
Or would you like to focus moreon, you know, being a marine

(01:15:45):
biologist on board and keep thatkind of uh career path?
And I hadn't worked as anexpedition leader, but there was
a part of me that felt like Icould do it.
And, you know, um you hear thatnot everybody wants to be an
expedition leader becausethere's all these amazing
positions you can have whenyou're not the expedition leader
and responsible for everyone andyou know the the uh the

(01:16:08):
everything and and kind of theexpedition team c the the the
connector to all the otherdepartments.
But I was up for the challengeand yeah, then a couple of
things happened where I had tostep into the role before I was
ready.
I didn't necessarily feel like Icould do it at that stage or
hadn't had enough experience.

(01:16:28):
I wanted to shadow some moreexpedition leaders, but it got
to a simple point where theexpedition leader didn't come.
So I was the next one in line,and it wasn't, hey, do you want
to step up?
It was hey, you are theexpedition leader from you know
in three days time.
And I think that's the kind ofthe the not so gentle push
everybody needs to get to thatfirst step towards working as an

(01:16:53):
expedition leader and being inthe position, and then you just
you just rely on your trainingand and what you know, and you
you you kind of rely on thosearound you who are a source of
information, and everybody'sreally kind of supportive
because no expedition leaderknows everything, and if they
think they do, then you knowthey they don't.

(01:17:15):
So yeah, that was uh that was mytransition towards then being uh
predominantly an expeditionleader, and then that's been
four four or five years now I'veworked in that role.
And that's kind of the that'skind of the top position in an
expedition team.
Yeah.
So I didn't really see it aswhere do I go to from here.

(01:17:37):
I saw it as I want to, you know,stay in this role, but I also
want to, you know, um look aftermyself in terms of longevity in
the industry because it it doesreally uh put you in situations
which can take a toll, you know,high stress, high challenging,
you're responsible for thesafety of a lot of people.
You're also getting pulled in ahundred different directions

(01:17:58):
from you know other managers,other departments who want
things done a certain way tohelp make their life easier as
well.
And yeah, you you sorry, yeah,you do things well, yep.

SPEAKER_00 (01:18:11):
Obvious question that I think everybody wants me
to point out, or I don't know ifit's a question, but also it's
like at some point, because youtalked about where your dad was
at this age and you know,married, you know, meeting your
mom, and like how do you have arelationship as a full-time
expedition leader?
Honestly, that's where I want togo with this.
Because I see that as like thatcould be a thing that would make

(01:18:33):
people want to kind of look forother picking up on this as well
or not.

SPEAKER_01 (01:18:37):
Uh okay.
Well, honestly speaking, thereare a lot of successful
relationships of expeditionstaff, and whether that means
they are they on a partner, yes.

SPEAKER_00 (01:18:49):
Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 (01:18:50):
I would say some are, but most would have most
would have relationships withuh, you know, their partner back
home.
And you know, it's a demandingjob.
It can be six plus months of theyear you're away on a ship, and
uh, you know, you can still bein touch, but um you're not
physically there.
So the the other side to that iswhen you uh usually when we're
off the ship, we're completelyfree.

(01:19:11):
So you can almost I guess uhhave an arrangement there if
your if your partner is willingfor you to be away because it is
your career, it is yourlivelihood, it's something you
love doing, and you know theyare okay with that arrangement,
then that works perfectly fine.
Like you said, quite often theycan both work maybe in the same

(01:19:32):
team, share a cabin, andessentially have part of their
life on ships together, part oftheir life off ships.
But you know, it can bedifficult to do.

SPEAKER_00 (01:19:39):
That can be challenging too.
There's there's a fine linebetween not enough time together
and too much time together.
Yeah, I mean I managed to lodgein Belize with my uh with my
ex-wife, and we were on a very,very small island.
It wasn't much bigger.
It probably wasn't any biggerthan the expedition ship.
It was very small.
And yeah, that can be achallenge as well.

(01:19:59):
Because you're either withguests, other staff, all the
time.
Uh, you know, all the time,yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:05):
Yeah.
Yeah, and and and that can be achallenge regardless of whether
you're in a relationship, youknow, it's this very unique
lifestyle where you're alwaysaround people, and for a lot of
that time you're you're anemployee where you're actually
doing your role, but you're alsoa human being on a ship that
still has their you know needsin terms of being able to find

(01:20:25):
some time for yourself or youknow, going about your usual
routines that you you try and dowhether you're on on a ship or
not.
Um but I think people can findit difficult to get to that
foundation with somebody if youwork in this industry and you're
you're single, because you know,it's this amazing lifestyle and

(01:20:45):
opportunity, but you're you'rerarely in one place for longer
than six weeks.
So that's a very short amount oftime, I guess, to form a
relationship, have any, youknow, have any strong
foundations to it beforesuddenly, you know, hey, I'm I'm
off to Antarctica for twomonths, and I was planning on
coming back here, but I actuallyuh have two months planned in

(01:21:05):
Bali because I love being therethat time of year, and then I go
over to the Arctic to work, soin December I'll be back if
you're still around.

SPEAKER_00 (01:21:14):
And uh have you heard of have you heard of the
attachment theories wherethey've got like some people are
anxious attached, some peopleare dismissive avoidant, and the
dismissive avoidant just is veryhappy with a lot of space.

SPEAKER_01 (01:21:26):
It might work really well for me.

SPEAKER_00 (01:21:27):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:21:28):
I have heard of these and I and I know what I
am.

SPEAKER_00 (01:21:31):
Yeah, I know what you are too, just based on your
job title.
No, I'm just kidding.
No, I get it.
It's the same thing with thedigital nomad thing.
It's like, yeah, yeah, nocomment.
Let's change this is not arelationship podcast.
So anyway, so what I heard yousaying was you working as an
expedition leader, you realizethat there's some limitations
there, obviously there are withanything in life.

(01:21:53):
And it sounds like you weresaying that that's kind of why
you started the consultingbusiness.
I and I don't want to put wordsin your mouth, but lead lead me
into that.
And is it something that you'reable to do both?

SPEAKER_01 (01:22:03):
Yeah, sure.
So ultimately, I would like tocontinue to work on ships
because I don't think anythingever beats going away on an
expedition, working on theexpedition team, leading
expeditions, and continuing tohave that aspect of your career,
which is what you love, traveland you know, essentially

(01:22:23):
earning an income from it.
But for me, I don't necessarilywant to continue to spend six
plus months of the year on aship.
I do want to have all thosethings like a partner, a family,
pets as well, you know, alifestyle at home where it's a
bit more of a normal land-basedexistence, and then can almost

(01:22:48):
uh cherry pick in some way, hey,this uh four-week contract to
Antarctica looks awesome inDecember, so I might go do that.
Or um, you know, I'd love to goback to the South Pacific
because I miss the tropics andthe the ship I work on is going
there, so that's what I want todo.
But it's not your uh it's notyour the majority of your time

(01:23:10):
isn't on the ship, and that'snot your main kind of identity,
which I figured out wasimportant for me.
I I want to be someone who goesaway and works on ships, but I
don't want that to be allencompassing of my life and my
decisions.
So it was one of those uh quiteobvious situations I found
myself in, which is I don't wantto step completely away from the

(01:23:30):
industry.
I know there's a lot ofopportunity in there to be able
to do things like the you knowadvice and preparations and
consulting for companies in theindustry, and even better if it
can be remote where I can, youknow, have some uh contracts and
work coming in for me to dowhile I'm shore-based, because
uh, you know, I could I coulddefinitely go into a completely

(01:23:52):
different industry, but I don'tthink I need to, and I don't
really want to.
Yeah, yeah, I get that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:23:58):
Is Sydney are you in Sydney because that's just where
you want to be land-based, or isthere strategically,
logistically, is it just areally good place for the type
of work you do?
Or I guess my question's gonnacome down to when you're when
you're land-based, you can liveanywhere in the world you want
to live.
Where where do you want to live?
Are you where or are you?

SPEAKER_01 (01:24:17):
Yeah.
Yeah, okay.
Um, well, I have only just movedto Sydney, so I've been here for
about six weeks, and it was alittle bit of both.
It was a decision where I I didwant to be back in Australia
just to be a little bit uhcloser to family, and it's easy
for me to get to you know wheremy family is down in Victoria
from here.
It's only an hour flight.

(01:24:37):
I was in Bali for four yearsbefore this, so that was where I
would spend my time in betweenships, and and it was it was
ideal for me.
That's the lifestyle I wanted,and I'd go to somewhere you know
tropical and warm and love theculture, love the food, love the
the the kind of everydayexistence there in Bali.
But after four years, I I felt alittle bit like I was just

(01:24:58):
repeating the same patterns.
And Sydney, Sydney was a choicefor me because yes, if you're
going to be an expeditioncompany in Australia, usually
your office is in Sydney.
So there are Australianexpedition companies whose
headquarters are here in Sydney,and you know, it's easy for me

(01:25:18):
to kind of be in touch or go fora coffee or chat about the
industry with people in theindustry, and it's also where
the headquarters ofinternational companies are as
well.
So Sydney's kind of the place inAustralia for that, so it it it
is logical in that sense, but itis uh also a place where I kind
of felt like suited me rightnow.
You know, I'm in a a really areally awesome part of the the

(01:25:42):
city.
I'm I'm close to the beach.
I I like to you know beoutdoors, I like to surf, I like
to uh be able to, you know, bein the ocean, near the ocean as
well.
And I gave myself a good runwayof time to be able to step away
from the ships, which I've I'vedone for the remainder of this
year, to be able to work on theconsulting business and start

(01:26:04):
to, you know, really really havetime where I'm not getting taken
away from this and going on aship and you know working crazy
hours each day.
I can uh kind of facilitate thegrowth of this small.

SPEAKER_00 (01:26:15):
So are you at a point right now in your life
where you meet somebody likepotential friends, potential
romantic partners, whatever?
But I imagine that you if you'rein Sydney and you meet somebody
you've got an Aussie accent,you're from Australia, uh
they're a little less likely tokind of like, why are you here?
Where are you from?
How long are you gonna be here?
Because even though you spent along time in Bali, I could still

(01:26:36):
imagine you know, I've been inBali, and I can imagine a local
or somebody else that maybelives there that's like, Are you
really here?
Do you really live here?
How long are you gonna bearound?
Where I feel like you couldprobably just blend in and avoid
some of those questions if yousay, Yes, I live in Sydney.
You don't have to tell them it'sa you know a short-term rental
or anything.
Where like I'm in I'm inColombia right now, so I meet

(01:26:56):
people and it's like, Why areyou here?
Are you here with family?
Yeah, you know, where do youlive?
How long are you how long haveyou been here?
How long are you gonna be here?
So have you noticed that alreadyjust by being in Sydney?
Does it feel a little bit morelike you belong or because I'm
I'm looking for answers here?
What because I'm trying tofigure out what I'm gonna do
with my life.
So give me some insights here.

SPEAKER_01 (01:27:16):
Yeah, no, honestly, 100%.
And this is the longest I willbe in one place for since I
started in in expeditions.
And you know, a lot of thoseearly conversations you have
with people, like we touched onbefore, is I'm here now, but you
know, this is what I do, and II'm super excited about my job,
and I find it interesting.
But practically, it has itschallenges straight up and it it

(01:27:38):
can filter through a lot ofpotential suitors early, which
is good, but it's also um alittle bit uh, you know, damn
it, I wish that one I wish thatone I wish I was in a different
situation when I had thisconversation with her.

SPEAKER_00 (01:27:53):
I get it, I get it.
I can relate a hundred percent.
Yeah, it's all right.

SPEAKER_01 (01:27:57):
When I came to Sydney, I consciously in started
to invest in people more becauseyou know, I know I'm going to be
here, and this could this couldeasily be somewhere that I end
up staying for longer.
You know, next year, the yearafter, who knows?
It it it's kind of all tounfold.
But when I when I mentally putmyself in that position where

(01:28:20):
it's a matter of uh you knowmaking making more of an effort
to meet and get to know peopleand get introduced into social
circles, and it actually feltquite good to say I now live in
Sydney, uh, this is what I'mdoing.
I've I've had this, you know,crazy last close to a decade
traveling around the world andand now I I feel like I'm in the

(01:28:40):
right place for me in terms ofbeing more settled.
And you you probably don't youprobably don't realize it at the
time, but if you're doing it foryourself because you know I I do
want those things for myself inthe future, I was hoping that by
luck it would it would stumblemy way and I wouldn't have to

(01:29:03):
give up this transit.
And nomadic lifestyle where Icould, you know, still have the
best of both worlds and maybe bychance meet this incredible
woman who, you know, is okaywith me being away for work and
is is okay with me, you know, umnot having a house and not
having a car.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:29:24):
I've been thinking that for about four and a half
years now, and I'm like finallycoming to the conclusion.
It's exhausting.
It's it's exhausting.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:29:32):
So you know, I I did want to I guess I wanted to, I I
didn't feel any um there was nohesitation in giving myself the
best chance for something to Iwas making myself more available
more available, I would say.
And uh, you know, here I am, andwhen I answer questions like
that, I f I can honestly saywhat is the truth, which is you

(01:29:56):
know, I do plan on being hereand I'm not going away just yet,
and I am uh, you know, lookingto have to discuss visas because
you're an Australian citizen.

SPEAKER_00 (01:30:06):
So it's like, yeah, yeah, and I'm here, I have no
reason to leave.

SPEAKER_01 (01:30:11):
And yeah, it's the more you travel and see the
world, the the more you realize,hey, it would actually be pretty
nice to end up somewhere kind ofclose to home, close to family
with someone who, you know, ishappy to to be there and and and
come into your life that way.
Um, but you know, I'm uh I'm ablank, I'm a blank page with
with with that and and and whatmight happen soon.

SPEAKER_00 (01:30:32):
Well, you and I need to stay in touch so I can learn
some things from you because I'mI'm at I'm at about that spot
too, because it's you know, Imeet people and it's like uh you
know, how long are you gonna bearound?
Well, I've got 90 days left onmy visa, and then I'm not sure.
Yeah, it's like that's notreally great for dating.
But anyway, Peter, we'vediscussed a bunch of things,
some of them on topic, some alittle off.

(01:30:53):
Fascinating conversation.
I really appreciate you being soopen and willing to share so
much.
And I'm curious, what do youwhat did I forget to ask you?
What do you wish I would haveasked you?
Or in other words, what do youwant to make sure that our
listeners hear about you, aboutBeyond Expedition Consulting, or
just life in general before wewrap up?

SPEAKER_01 (01:31:11):
Yeah, sure.
So something that hasn't comeup, but I guess we were very
close to it coming up is thekind of the uh the life of an
expedition guide who works onships, right?
And you know, we we mentionedabout you're always at work,
you're always around people,you're in kind of confined
spaces.

(01:31:31):
I think there's not manyopportunities that come up when
you're on board who maybeexpress how challenging it can
be.
Because, you know, most of yourconversations are kind of with
people going through the samething, or you're talking to to
guests who they want to hear,you know, you love, you love it,
you love everything,everything's a dream.

(01:31:52):
Wow, I wish I did what you weredoing when I was young.
But you know, these are these itit's high stress, high reward
for sure, and everybody lovesthe reward, and we all, you
know, get a an an endorphin kickwhen we get to do cool things or
we make decisions that you knowturn out to be the the correct
ones.
But in expeditions and on inremote environments where

(01:32:15):
there's a lot of variables andthings outside of your control,
there is a lot of pressure tomake the decision that turns out
to be the right one.
And sometimes you you knowyou're never going to know
whether that's correct until ithappens.
And and for me that was a hugestruggle when I first started
working as an expedition leaderbecause try as you might to you

(01:32:38):
know have plan A, B, C, D to beable to fall back on if things
don't work out how they couldthe next day.
You would spend a lot of timeruminating on maybe what you
should have done, or if thishappens, I should have because
you have a lot of power to youknow decide where the ship goes,
what the activity is, what theexperience of the the guests is

(01:32:59):
going to be.

SPEAKER_00 (01:33:00):
Whether people are safe or not.

SPEAKER_01 (01:33:02):
Uh uh people's safety, the the the team, the
the the guest safety, your ownsafety.
And I would really struggle withthat.
I'd ruminate and I wouldn'tsleep.
And it was uh you knowcompounding because then the
next day, you know, the samething would happen, and it was
almost no respite.
And and for me it was a real itwas a real learning curve

(01:33:24):
because you have tocompartmentalize the things that
are in your control and thethings that are outside.
And you can you can have allthis data and information coming
to you, and that can be from youknow your own research, what
you're doing online, looking atweather forecasts, other people
in the expedition team, otherpeople who have worked as
expedition leaders, but uhessentially you you filter that

(01:33:46):
and you make the decision.
And you need to trust yourselfas well, because there's there's
uh you know no use playing overevery scenario in your mind.
The only one you have to play iswhat happens the next morning
when you wake up and thensuddenly it's okay, now we're
on, and you know, this is uhgoing to be a challenging day.
Or in hindsight, I wish we weredealing with this instead of
where we are now.

(01:34:07):
And what I wanted to justhighlight is that takes a toll,
you know, it is a real it's yourpersonal brand.
So, you know, you you kind offeel responsible for a lot of
things, but the the experienceand and the safety is one thing.
And don't get me wrong, it'sit's highly it's highly there's
a lot of praise and it's highlyrewarding, but you deal with

(01:34:32):
that and the pressure andreleasing that pressure in your
own way.
And for me, I probably w wasdoing things that helped me
cope, but they weren'tsustainable.
And I really felt like hey, if Ikeep putting myself in this
situation and I am uh, you know,eventually some sometime that
luck will go against you, andyou might find yourself in a

(01:34:53):
really dangerous high stresssituation.
And I just want to highlightthat we need to be at our 100%
when we put ourselves in thesepositions.
You should be at your most uhmentally and physically fit and
healthy position because it's ait's a very demanding position,

(01:35:17):
and you need to protect thatpart of yourself.
And I needed to do that bystepping away, which I've done
now, and just giving my nervoussystem a chance to reset and
focus on some other things inlife, which might be my own kind
of personal fitness and my ownmental well-being, and almost
almost allowing enough time topass that I can take myself away

(01:35:42):
from a high stress environment,build my build myself back up
again in the sense of you knowmentally and physically strong,
and then go back and have a havea continued go.
So longevity in this career isimportant, but I've seen already
a lot of burnout, a lot of uh,you know people in situations

(01:36:03):
that are responsible, have madea decision, and they may regret
it or they that they made itbecause they weren't at their
their sharpest.
And yeah, it's not the place forthat.
So as much as you can alwaysaccept the next contract or take
take another chunk of of moneyfor going away and and working,
you do need to you do need tolook after yourself.

unknown (01:36:23):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:36:24):
Well you mentioned bats.
That's the most important Youmentioned bats a few times.
And I suspect, I don't know,I've been on an expedition ship
leading a group, but that justmeans you know, just
socializing, just showing up.
And I wasn't, you know, I didn'thave the responsibilities that
the people on the ship had.
And I suspect that anybody thathas spent more than a few months

(01:36:44):
in a role like that, listeningto you right now, is like, oh
yeah, yep, I get it completely.
Because I even get it just frommanaging and managing an
offshore offshore resort, whichwas similar in some ways, it can
be incredibly stressful.
And you know, as I as I heardyou sharing that, I was like, Do
you guys on the ships do youhave access to Wi-Fi so you can
do video calls if you wanted to?

(01:37:05):
I'm just curious.
Typically, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:37:07):
Yeah, do you think uh probably ever since I've
started, there's uh there'sthere's usually Wi-Fi anywhere
the ships go in the world thesedays, so you can yeah, you can
have contact to the other world.

SPEAKER_00 (01:37:16):
So if I was somebody that worked in the mental health
field, uh therapist, a coach orsomething like that, listening
to this conversation right nowthat was travel inclined and
maybe was a guide or somethingin the past, I'd be thinking,
geez, there's a businessopportunity here.
Maybe it already exists.
But wouldn't it be great if likethese the the companies had
somebody on staff, like a stafftherapist or somebody that they

(01:37:38):
could do video calls with theteam once a week or something
like that?
Does that exist?
Is that something you wouldsuggest?
Is that maybe it already exists?
But it sounds like it would bereally helpful.

SPEAKER_01 (01:37:47):
Yeah, so you would probably find the usual avenue
on board is through humanresources.
You know, they they probablyhave an umbrella of a number of
different roles, and no onewould probably associate you
know, counseling or therapythrough that, but there would be
avenues within a bigger companyto kind of be able to have a
chat and say, hey, I'm I'mstruggling, or hey, I you know,

(01:38:09):
I feel like I need an outlet offthe ship, or or maybe some like
professional uh feedback.
But yeah, I agree.
I think um, you know, the theproduct really is the the
personal experience that theexpedition team can give, and
you your company and yourproduct is so much better off if

(01:38:31):
that that person is in a goodspace and they're able to give
their best.
And you know, trust me, the mosttalkative, extroverted person
after two months on the ship,they're gonna be a completely
different personality type.
And that's why the contracts arenormally around about two
months.
But yeah, I think there's a Ithink there's a real opportunity
there.
And I would just hope thatpeople use the the time they

(01:38:52):
have when they're not on theship to see that as okay, well,
now I've got the time and nowI've got the access, you know,
different avenues I can explore.

SPEAKER_00 (01:39:00):
To r to recharge instead of just go drink every
night or isolate in in a roomsomewhere.

SPEAKER_01 (01:39:06):
That's extremes, you know.
You're you're you're so on, andthen suddenly nobody wants a
thing to do with you, and youdon't have an alarm clock that
needs to go off, you don't haveto be anywhere.
And everybody can go about thathow they choose.
You do need to find what worksfor you because uh you yeah, you
can't sustain yourself at thatlevel for 12 months of the year.

SPEAKER_00 (01:39:25):
It sounds like you got a whole other business idea
in mind.
It sounds like you're anexpedition coach, expedition
leader coach as well.
You can help help peoplenegotiate this because just
having somebody to talk to thatgets it that not sharing a cabin
with you or not on the sameboat, you know.
Just because I get why theobviously the guests don't want

(01:39:48):
to hear it, the boat captaindoesn't want to hear it, HR
probably doesn't want to hearit, and the other naturalist
guides don't want to hear itbecause you're all like, yeah,
you you and me both.
Like what you know.
Yeah, so anyway, that'sinteresting.
I'm happy you brought that up.
Fascinating conversation.
Peter, any anything else beforewe before we go?
I don't want to I I told youyou'd have we'd have a chance to
discuss anything you want, butdo you think we've covered

(01:40:09):
covered most everything?

SPEAKER_01 (01:40:10):
Yeah, covered about an hour's an hour's more an hour
more than we thought.
Which has been awesome.
Yeah, I mean, uh I I reallyappreciate the the opportunity
to to come on and and have achat.
And I love talking about theindustry and expeditions and of
course my own story gettinghere.
So I appreciate the the chanceto come on and have a good chat

(01:40:33):
and yeah, always always open tofuture conversations and when
I'm sure we'll keep in touch.

SPEAKER_00 (01:40:38):
It's it's why I do this because I enjoy it as well,
and I'm so fortunate to have theopportunity to have you know a
couple hour long conversationwith somebody like you that has
such a unique it's it'sinteresting because we all have
everybody on the show's gottheir unique story, but it's
amazing how much overlap thereis, and I never would have
realized after I started this.
It's like after oneconversation, it's like wow,

(01:41:00):
that like which is just makes meeven more excited about doing it
because you'll listen tosomebody you mentioned right
before I record that you werelistening to a conversation that
I had with somebody else thatthat you had have some
connections with in the past,and it's it's just pretty cool.
So, but we can't do it withoutfolks like you coming on and
sharing stories and and honestlylike getting kind of vulnerable.
I mean, we were talking aboutsome deep stuff, so I appreciate

(01:41:23):
you getting us to do that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:41:24):
That's true.
No, it's good.
It's uh yeah, you know, it's aplatform to get it out there,
and yeah, we're we're a prettysmall, we're a pretty small
industry, and it's all aboutnetworks and connections and
yeah, just being able to putsome of these stories out there.
Very cool.

SPEAKER_00 (01:41:40):
Well, that's uh you and I get to stay in touch and
we'll have more conversations inthe future.
But thank you so much and hopeyou have a great day, Peter.
Appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:41:48):
Thanks, Jason, appreciate it.
Yeah, you too, ciao.

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Adventure Travel with Peter Bergman - Beyond Expedition Consulting

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Adventure Travel with Peter Bergman - Beyond Expedition Consulting