Adventure Travel with Sally Guillaume - Undiscovered Mountains France - Adventure Travel Podcast - Big World Made Small

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (01:05):
Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of
the Big World Made Small podcastfor the adventure traveler.
So happy to have each and everyone of you back here today and
super excited to have my guest.
Today we've got Sally Guillaume.
She's the founder ofUndiscovered Mountains.
Sally, did I say your last nameright?

SPEAKER_02 (01:21):
You did, yes.
Thank you.
Hi, Jason.

SPEAKER_00 (01:24):
It's it's so nice to have you here.
And uh I introduced you as youknow the founder of Undiscovered
Mountains, but right before wepushed the button, it asked you
about that because I know you'rein France and and sometimes you
use the France as part of thetitle of your company.
Oh, it and I'm only saying that,so if someone sees Undiscovered
Mountains France somewhere, theymake the connection, probably

(01:46):
the same person.
Sally, just real quick, we Iguess I already mentioned you're
in France.
Is that right?
You're you're on the call fromFrance right now, right, where
you live?

SPEAKER_02 (01:57):
Yeah, yeah.
So I'm in the southern FrenchAlps in a town, well, near to a
town called Gap, which is uh thesouthern edge of the Ecre
National Park for people thatknow the French Mountains.
And uh that's where ourUndiscovered Mountains is based.
So we're based in this in thissouthern part of the French
Alps.

SPEAKER_00 (02:13):
Very cool.
We're gonna discuss a bit aboutkind of how you got from where
you were to where you are now.
And before we do that, let'sgive our listeners kind of a
clear idea of what you do withUndiscovered Mountains.
What is Undiscovered Mountains?
Maybe the 30, 60 second elevatorpitch, and then we're gonna dig
into how it came about.

SPEAKER_02 (02:33):
Okay, so we basically organize all different
types of adventures in themountains in the Southern French
Alps.
So in the summer, we don't dokind of the mass tourism type
things like ski holidays.
So we try to do everything thatis not to that.
So it's more things like in thewinter, uh, ski touring,
cross-country skiing, wintermulti-activity holidays, uh
snowshoeing holidays.

(02:55):
And then in the summer we do,uh, well, not just the summer,
from the spring right through tothe autumn, because we are our
our whole thing is about tryingto be kind of four seasons.
So we do walking, biking,cycling, via ferrata, climbing,
mountaineering, canyoning, horseriding, multi-activity.
So it basically anything thatyou can do in the Southern
French Alps, we do.

SPEAKER_00 (03:16):
I was gonna ask you, I was like, well, other than ski
well, you you mentioned skiing,but in on two different kinds of
sides of that.
One is the the typical skiholiday that you think of people
go to the ski resorts anddownhill skiing and all that
stuff.
You don't do that, but you dothe cross-country skiing and
probably and ski touring, yeah,backcountry skiing, you probably

(03:37):
think of it as in the States,yeah.
Is when you say I'm just curiousbecause I had I grew up in the
Rocky Mountains and I had a lotof friends that were into they
would call it backcountry stuff,but they would like throw
downhill skis on the their backand climb up to the top of a
mountain and then ski down, butthere's also cross-country
skiing.
So when you say backcountryskiing, what is that what is

(03:58):
that how what's your definitionof that?

SPEAKER_02 (04:00):
Yeah, so it's it's a bit of a semantic thing, and it
depends where you come from.
But basically, for me, and inkind of Europe, cross-country
skiing is relatively flat onskinny skis.
So in the in the winterOlympics, you can see people
doing skating.
So there's a skating sk style,and then a classic style where
you do one in front of the otherin like tracks.

(04:20):
You've probably seen that.
Yeah.
So that's what I would callcross-country skiing, and then
you've got ski touring, which islike what you probably know of
as backcountry skiing, which iswhere you have skis that look
like downhill skis, and you youstick skins on the back, and
then you walk up the hillwearing the skis with your heel
out, and then you take the skinsoff, stick your heel in, and you

(04:41):
ski down when you get to thetop.
But it's all off, it's not, it'snot in resorts.
Yeah, okay.
So you get really away fromyeah.
So yeah, our I suppose you knowit's all the sort of alternative
winter activities to the thesort of downhill.
We do do downhill skiing, butit's just not our thing, it's
not like our biggest uh, youknow, we tried to focus on

(05:01):
alternative stuff and and alsomore natural stuff as well.
So we we also do um a wolftracking trip, which is quite um
a unique trip uh in the winter.
We don't do it in the summer, wejust do it in the winter.
So yeah, that yeah, I supposeit's just slightly alternative
winter activities in the winter,and in the summer it's more
classic, what you'd think of inthe mountains in the summer, all
the different sort of activitiesthat you can do.

SPEAKER_00 (05:23):
Okay.
And I s there's the activitiesthat you mentioned, and I can
kind of imagine that.
And you you you mentioned mostof them probably quite
specifically.
But I also imagine if I wasgoing to the Alps, there's
probably fun food type of stuff,culinary experiences, the
villages, stuff like that.
So is that incorporated intomost of what you do as well?

SPEAKER_02 (05:45):
Yeah, it is, yeah, it is, and we need to we we
should do more about pushingthat forward.
But yeah, I mean, where we areis a very, very authentic part
of the Alps.
So it's not it's not a masstourism destination, it's not as
well known as the Northern Alps.
So, and we work with a lot ofkind of more kind of boutique,
locally run farmhouse type guesthouses and locally run hotels

(06:07):
who naturally have a passion forfood and use local products
because that's kind of what thisarea is about.
So when people come on a tripwith us, it's part of the trip,
like that that kind of immersionin the local culture, but it but
it's not something that wereally promote, actually.
We should promote it more, butwe but we don't.
But yeah, it is definitely very,very, very much you know, you

(06:28):
come here and you're but youcome here and you're you know,
you're you're in someone's, youknow, we just don't work with
big chains, so uh anywhere youstay is going to be unique, you
know, it's gonna be like aspecial place that's just on run
by that family with theircharacter and their way of doing
things, and yeah, so it that'sthat's the kind of feel, I
suppose.
And that's why I liked this partof the Alps because when I first

(06:50):
discovered it, that's what Ifelt about it.
I felt this is a reallyauthentic, real part of the
Alps.
That people, you know, when Ifirst came here, which was 20
years ago, it was a real noveltyto be English, like nobody,
there were no other Englishpeople here, or very, very few
other English people here.
Whereas, for example, at thattime in the Northern Alps, not
that I'm dissing the NorthernAlps because it's got its

(07:10):
qualities, it you know, you'dwalk down the street in Mauzine
and you'd hear English beingspoken.
Well, that people here that didnot, you know, there's no way.
So I just felt like it was a lotmore of a real, less of a
tourist factory type place, andmore kind of off-the-beaten
track.
It's a little bit more difficultto get to, which is great
because it means that you know,you don't it's still off the
beaten track, and it's still,you know, people who come here

(07:32):
appreciate that.
But yeah, it it definitely doeshave have that uh feel of being
how the Alps, how people imaginethe Alps before it became
overrun with tourists.
That was yeah, I get you.

SPEAKER_00 (07:42):
I was gonna ask you that direct directly, and then
you pretty much just shared allthat.
So that's uh that's very cool.
Do most where did most of yourguests come from?

SPEAKER_02 (07:51):
So most guests come from the UK, Holland, kind of
northern Europeans, and then wehave a few guests that come from
Canada and the states, someAustralians, some South
Africans.
I mean, the website's in Englishand French, so obviously it
attracts main language people.
We don't do any marketing inFrance, we get the odd French
person as well, but we our mainmarketing is in English, and so
it's mainly yeah, Anglophonesfrom from around the world, but

(08:13):
I'd say a majority from fromEngland, and actually, just
going back to the what you saidbefore, just a little uh
anecdote, I suppose, talkingabout you know, why do people
come here and the kind ofquaintness of it?
So we we have we runcross-country skiing holidays,
and we had a couple or familywho came from Canada, and um,
and I and I was like, Why arethey coming from Canada where

(08:34):
you've got like hundreds ofkilometres of cross-country ski
piece to come and ski here inthe you know in the southern
French Alps?
So I asked them the question, Iwas like, you know, why why did
you come here when you've gotlike the best cross-country
skiing in the world in inCanada?
And she's like, Well, it's notat all the same, it's completely
different, you know, becauseapparently I've never, well I
have now, but when I've spokento her, I'd never skied in in

(08:56):
Canada.
And she said that when you goskiing in Canada, it's just in
the forest and you just go formiles and miles and miles.
But you that there's not thekind of like when you come here
where where we are in theSouthern French Alps, you you
start off in a village.
So you're in a village andthere's houses and there's a
shop or a restaurant, andthere's a ski shop, and you hire
your skis and you go out andyou've got mountains, you're not
you're not in the forest in amonotone sort of environment.

(09:17):
It's a much more you feel likeyou're much more in a kind of
cozy, quaint village in the Alpsand with the mountain scenery.
So that was what they likedabout it, and I'd never even
thought about that.
For me, that was just normal,you see.
So that's you know, it's kind ofgoes back to what you were
saying before.

SPEAKER_00 (09:33):
Yeah, I I get that because you know, if I'm from
Canada and I grew up there, Ispend my life there, I probably
go skiing there.
It's a totally different thingto go do that in France.
You know, it's like everythingit's like everything.
If you're into bicycling, maybeyou you live in Colorado and you
like to ride your bike in themountains, but the idea of going

(09:54):
to, you know, the Alps andriding your bike and staying in
these crane villages, it's it isa totally different experience,
still centered around anactivity.
But there's so many otherreasons to go besides just the
the activity.

SPEAKER_02 (10:07):
It sounds like it gives you access to a whole new
culture.

SPEAKER_00 (10:12):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I I'm gonna I'm just gonna bestraight.
I really know nothing about theFrench Alps, and you know, as
someone from the states, Itravel a lot.
I've been to France, I haven'tbeen to the French Alps, but
honestly, if somebody said youknow, I don't know, if I met
somebody and they said, Oh, Ihave always wanted to go to the

(10:34):
French Alps, I would like whatreally like I'm not even sure.
I would just assume the FrenchAlps were the site of the Swiss
Alps that were closest toFrance.
I have no idea.
This is just somebody from theStates just sharing what I don't
know about the French Alps.
Um so I guess I guess I'm whereI'm going with this.

(10:55):
It looks like there it seemslike maybe the marketing
division of you know VisitFrance hasn't done a great job
talking about the French Alps, Iguess is what I'm trying to say.
To the US to the US market.
Because in the US we all knowabout the Swiss Alps.
That's or you know, maybe theItalian Alps.
But is that a challenge for you?

(11:15):
Do you like if you speak topeople from the States or if you
go to a show somewhere or ifyou're traveling and you talk
about the French Alps, do youget that kind of that weird
look, like, oh, what's what'sthe difference between the
French Alps and the Swiss Alps?
Do you get that?

SPEAKER_02 (11:29):
No, not so no, I've not really come across that.
But then I suppose the showsthat I'm going to, it's people
that are connoisseurs of ofmountains rather than just but
but it but what we do get ispeople, when you say we're in
the French Alps, theyimmediately think of Mont Blanc,
Femini, and Mausine, which iswhich are the most promoted um

(11:51):
parts of the Alps, the FrenchAlps, um, in the Aiguille de
Midi and those kind of things,which might not mean anything to
you, but if you're if you'reinto mountain tourism, they
would.
My job when I go, you know, whenI'm hearing that is to is to
share you know the differencebetween that part.
I mean, we we do actually dotrips in that part of the Alps,
but it's not our bread andbutter, if you like.
We're much more focused in theSouthern French Alps, as I was

(12:12):
saying before, which is youknow, from Mauzine, we're kind
of like a four-hour drive awaysouth.
So that's the difference.
It's not that far, but it is farenough for it to be, you know,
um, a different area, and it andit has a very different culture
because where our part of theAlps is right on the border also
of Italy.
So we are we share a border withItaly, um, and then further

(12:34):
north is the border withSwitzerland, if that makes
sense.
But we're not in that we're notin that so our part of the Alps
has a really strong Italianinfluence as well as the French
influence, and it's furthersouth, so we get the kind of in
the summer we get theMediterranean climate, which but
in a mountain if I'd like, soit's warm and sunny, we don't
get loads of rain in the summer,it's quite dry, but we get the

(12:56):
get the heat storms at the endof the day, so it still stays
green.

SPEAKER_01 (13:00):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (13:01):
But it's a really stable climate compared to, for
example, in the in the NorthernAlps, I keep going back to the
Northern Alps, where you canhave like, you know, four or
five days of rain consecutive inthe summer, that just does not
that doesn't happen in thesouthern French Alps.
And we've still got highaltitude, so in the winter we've
still got plenty of snow.
Because that's another kind ofthing people think, oh, it's
southern French Alps, so therewon't be any snow.

(13:21):
Well, no, actually, that's nottrue.
And we have some of the bestcross-country skiing areas
because we've got high altitudecross-country ski areas um in
the southern French Alps.
So we're you know, in the Keratat night, you know, 1800 and
what, 2,000 metres.
So yeah, I mean, we're we'revery blessed with a fantastic
climate in the Southern FrenchAlps, and that is one of the

(13:42):
biggest selling points, I think,of the area.

SPEAKER_00 (13:45):
You did a great job of telling me that I'm not your
ideal client, which is a goodthing.

SPEAKER_02 (13:50):
You're very welcome.

SPEAKER_00 (13:52):
Because you're right, you're like, well, when I
speak to people that are thatare into mountain sports and
mountain stuff, then they allkind of get it.
So that that's that's good.
I'm happy because I'm learning alot.
And I'm gonna ask you anotherquestion that probably shows
that is even though I grew up inthe the Rocky Mountains and I've
spent a lot of time in themountains, um, but is it

(14:13):
obviously it's cold enough inthe winter that it snows and the
snow doesn't melt.
But is it like super cold?
Is it just cold enough to havegood snow?
Is it I mean?

SPEAKER_02 (14:25):
Oh, it can get really cold.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it can um, you know, belike minus 20 in January.

SPEAKER_01 (14:32):
Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (14:33):
I mean, that's more rare, that's rarer now than it
used to be, but you know, withclimate with climate change and
everything.
Um I mean the main difference, Idon't know if you're gonna ask
me this question about climatechange, but the main signs that
we've seen here with regards toto climate change is the we're
getting more we're actuallygetting m lots of snow, but the
snow line is higher.

(14:53):
So the where where it changesfrom being snow to rain, if you
like, is higher, that altitudeis higher.

SPEAKER_01 (15:00):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (15:01):
So some of the lower altitude ski resorts struggle.
That's the same everywhere in inEurope, and there have been
closures all over all overEurope of lower altitude ski ski
resorts.
But that so far that hasn'tactually affected us
particularly because we're notreally based in the ski resorts,
if that makes sense.
But um, it does affect tourismgenerally, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (15:20):
Yeah, sure, absolutely.
You know, there is somethingthat I I'm I'm sure is in the
southern French Alps.
I don't know.
If not, you're gonna tell me.
But I I grew up around hot airballooning.
And I've you know got a lot ofyou know people in my social
networks, and I think a lot theyI think they do quite a bit of
ballooning in the southernFrench Alps.

(15:42):
Is that right?

SPEAKER_02 (15:44):
Yeah, they do.

SPEAKER_00 (15:45):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (15:46):
That's really no one's ever asked me that before.
But yeah, in fact, where wewhere I where I where I live,
just I can see it from where Ilive.
And like look uh I'm looking outthe window, I can see it.
There's um an aerodrome calledTallard, which is um a famous
aerodrome for all air sports,like parachuting and all of that

(16:06):
all of that kind of stuff.
And there's a hot air, there's ahot air balloon company that
start from there, and we oftenin the morning we see the hot
air balloons out the window.
Yeah.
Yeah, so yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_00 (16:18):
I guess I do know one thing about those hundred
prints.
And I wasn't I wasn't even sure,honestly.
There used to be a tour operatorback a long time ago when I was
much younger that would do likeweeklong tours around the Alps
and Europe, and it was calledthe Buddy Bombard Society, I
think.
I don't know if that rings abell, but they used to uh, you
know, take a group for a week orso and go to different places

(16:40):
and fly balloons.
And I just I don't know.
Anyway, do your so if I'm thefirst person that's asked about
that, I I take it it's not apopular activity with your
clients.

SPEAKER_02 (16:50):
It's not on our it's not in our portfolio, no.
But people could ask us and wecould organize it.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (16:57):
But just we've never it can it can create a challenge
because it's very weatherdependent.
I don't know, maybe you have youknow ideal weather there, but
that that can be the challengetoo of building that into an
itinerary is you know, okay,we're gonna do this Tuesday
morning, and then the weather isnot right, then it it can be a
challenging issue.
So I anyway, we're not here totalk about balloons, but very

(17:20):
cool.
But I suspect you also have likeparagliding and some because you
mentioned some of the otheraerial sports as well.
So all right, it's time tofigure out how the heck you got
there because you'd mentioned acouple things 20 years ago, and
you were, you know, thereweren't very many English people
around.
So let's go back and figure outhow you got from wherever.
Obviously, it was in France, sotell us where are you from

(17:42):
originally?

SPEAKER_02 (17:44):
So I'm British, so from the UK.
Um, not really from anywhere inthe UK because I l I moved
around a lot and actually alsomoved around into other
countries as a child.
So I lived in Norway and Denmarkand America, actually, in Miami
and the UK, and in the UK andScotland and England, so like
kind of all over the place.
But I probably spent the longestof my time in Manchester in the

(18:07):
north of England as an adultbefore I moved to France.

unknown (18:10):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (18:11):
So that's where I'm from.
What was because I I suspect thechildhood and the moving around
had a lot to do with the choicesyou've made in your life.
So let's let's discuss thatmore.
What was what was going on thathad you move in so much?

SPEAKER_02 (18:24):
Well, in a very uh to be very so both my parents uh
married and divorced probablyfour or five times each, and I
kind of went around withdifferent variations of them.
And uh had worked in the oilindustry at one point, that's
where Norway came in.
Anyway, I won't bore you withthe whole personal thing, but
yeah, so moved around a lot.
And yes, so living in Norway wasprobably my inference where I

(18:45):
realized where you have likelike I can remember walking to
school in the snow and havingthis whole kind of thing about
the you arrive at school and youtake your shoe, your wet, you
know, snowy shoes off and youwear these woolly socks, and
sliding down our schools on topof a hill, and everybody used to
slide down the hill on atoboggan after school to get
home and jump on each other'stoboggans and stuff, and
snowball fights, and this kindof and now I understand what it

(19:08):
was.
I think it was like a form ofhandball sport that I didn't
really understand what it was atthe time, that it was like
rugby, but wasn't quite rugby inthe snow.
So, yeah, all of these kind oflike memories, and that's where
I first ever tasted skiing, likecross-country skiing, was in was
in Norway.
So I I just I discovered that Iloved the snow and um snow
sports, which I'd neverexperienced in the UK,

(19:28):
obviously.
That was probably where I firsthad that kind of taste of I want
to live somewhere with a properseason, with proper winter and a
proper summer, because they havereally good summers as well in
Norway.

SPEAKER_00 (19:39):
Right.
Around what age were you inNorway?
Just trying to get an idea.

SPEAKER_02 (19:43):
Yeah, 12.
12, 13, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (19:46):
Okay.
And that can that can be a time,a very influential time for for
most people.
You know, whatever you're doingwhen you're around that age,
that can be a big influence aswell.
Did you, when you first moved toNorway, did you like the winter
or did it take a while for youto kind of get used to it and
and enjoy it?

SPEAKER_02 (20:02):
Oh no, I think I loved it straight away.
I think that's where I wassupposed to.
Yeah.
And I still I still love thewinter.
I um, you know, and I love thatfeeling of the the f the
coldness on your face, you know,where everything's cold and
fresh, but you're still you'rewarm because you're dressed up.
I I you know, like that, likethat feeling.

SPEAKER_00 (20:22):
I can see the look for anybody that's listening and
not watching the video.
Yeah, I can see the look on yourface.
That's that's that's very cool.
You obviously like it.
If if we had a time machine andI could go back and met you when
you're twelve and I said, Whatdo you want to do when you grow
up?
What do you think the answerwould have been?

SPEAKER_02 (20:41):
Oh my god, I don't know.
Actually, I have no idea.
Yeah, I de I definitely hadn'tthought about running a to
travel company.
It probably would have been, Idon't know, uh, what would I
wanted to be?
I don't actually don't know.
Probably a doctor.

SPEAKER_00 (20:56):
Well do you remember Yeah, do you remember at any
point in in your childhoodthinking you wanted to do
something?
I mean, what you know, what didyou want to do when you grew up?
Do you remember, do you have anyspecific memories of that?
Not necessarily.

SPEAKER_02 (21:10):
Yeah, no, I don't I I I had a real problem trying to
decide what I was gonna do whenI grew up, as I was growing up.
So so yeah, I started off, I Ikind of got into the outdoors.
So I went moved back to Englandafter being in Norway and
Denmark and kind of got into theoutdoors at that point, even
though I'd been in the outdoorsa bit and done skiing and stuff.
I hadn't when I went to theoutdoors, I started going
camping and hiking in themountains and stuff in the UK.

(21:32):
I'd never really done thatbefore.
And that's when I sort ofdiscovered that when I was in my
late teens, and I thought thisis I love this.
This is this is fabulous.
This is me.
And that's kind of when Istarted realising oh, I'd like
to work in this field.
So I ended I ended up doing acourse which which was um it was
a degree to be a teacher, ascience teacher, and you did all
of the outdoor qualifications atthe same time.
So you became a climbinginstructor and a kayaking

(21:54):
instructor and a mountain leadand all the kind of first
entry-level instructorqualifications, and the whole
purpose of that degree was to beable to go into a school and be
a science teacher, becauseobviously that's where where
your salary comes from, really,but then be able to do all the
extracurricular activities likedo the Duke of Edinburgh Award
or run the climbing club or allof that kind of stuff.
So that was what that was thethat was the degree.

(22:16):
So that was a four-year umdegree.
So I did that um and reallyenjoyed it.
And then, of course, then I wasa qualified teacher, so it was
like, well, well, what do I donow?
So then I became a teacher andand did that for a bit and sort
of decided that I didn't reallyyeah, well, I quite like
teaching.
I I do I do like teaching, and Ihave had some recent teaching

(22:39):
experience here too in the inFrance in COVID, but kind of
rediscovered, oh actually I dolike this, but at the time I
didn't like it because I just itwas all the paperwork and having
to justify boring stuff aboutteaching.
But anyway, didn't decided Ididn't want to do teaching, so
then I but I quite liked thissharing of information, this
kind of so I ended up retrainingto be a journalist, which I th

(23:01):
which I thought at the timewould would tick those boxes of.
Being able to communicate, ifyou like, and share stories and
stuff, but not have the pressureof having to do a lesson plan.

SPEAKER_00 (23:12):
Let me Sally, let me let me ask you a couple
questions around this becausethis is fascinating.
If at the time when you startedthat program, four-year degree
program to be a science teacherwith all these other skills that
you could use, kind of outdoorleadership skills, maybe you'd
call them that, if you'd had theoption of just doing four years

(23:34):
outdoor leadership part withoutthe training to be a teacher,
but maybe maybe it was afour-year degree to be an
outdoor leader to start your owntourism company somewhere, would
you have chosen differently?

SPEAKER_02 (23:47):
Yeah, possibly.
And I did and I and I did do alot of outdoor instructing.
I mean I did do that, but Ithink the level that I was at, I
wasn't, you know, I was it wasentry level.
So to get to a kind of higherlevel would have required moving
to somewhere like the Alps atthe time and you know, living in
the mountains and doing, youknow, proper, you know, much

(24:08):
more hardcore stuff than I wasdoing at the time.
I didn't visualize that at thetime.
I that wasn't kind of somethingthat was accessible to me or
didn't think it was at the time.
So that isn't the route that Iwent down.
But yeah, maybe if differentdoors had been opened or
different opportunities had beenopened, then yeah, maybe
potentially I would have gonedown that route.
But I didn't.
So I went back, I went to be ajournalist and actually did I
did a I was it was a broadcastjournalism, so it was great

(24:31):
actually.
And I loved that job, it was afantastic job, but I still had
this yearning to live in themountains, and then I kind of
went.
I don't know if you know when Iwas working in you know, you're
working in TV, I was working forthe BBC, so you're stuck in a
city, you can't work in the BBCand live in the mountains, it
just doesn't come together.
No, so there I'm like so.
This structure I did really likethe job, it was a dream job, you

(24:54):
know, it was really exciting,lots of very lots of variety,
you know, active, out and about,finding stories, that kind of
stuff.
I did enjoy that, but yeah, I itit was uh gnawing away at me
that I couldn't be in themountains.
I mean, every weekend I was outgoing into the mountains, but
you know, it wasn't my part ofmy daily life, and then you
know, getting a bit older,starting to think about having a
family, and I'm thinking, right,no, I want my family to be I

(25:15):
want to bring my family up inthe mountains.
I that I definitely want to dothat.
I don't want to bring them up ina city.
So that was kind of like the theturning point of like right, we
you know, with my now myex-husband, but at the time it
was like right, we we need tothink about how we're gonna do
this, and that was when thedecision was made that we would
move to the mountains to bringup our family.
At the point at that time wewere looking at all options, it

(25:38):
was like, you know, New Zealand,at the lake district in the UK,
at the Alps, and the Alps wonbecause it was the best
mountains, but we didn't speakany French.
Okay.
So that was the big barrier, andit was the big sort of like, oh
my god, are we gonna be able todo this?
Not speaking French.
So that but that's kind of wedecided that that's what we were
gonna do.

(25:59):
So we we we spent, and this wasnot something that we did
quickly, that we spent quite afew years m coming to the Alps,
looking at different parts ofthe Alps, deciding where we were
gonna be.
Um and we knew the SouthernFrench Alps because my
ex-husband um is a big kayaker,whitewater kayaker, and it's a
big area for whitewaterkayaking.

(26:20):
Um that's how we knew about theSouthern French Alps, and we
were you know, when we camehere, we're like, yeah,
actually, this is so much nicerthan the other parts of the
Alps, you know, all of thethings I was saying at the
beginning of the beginning ofthe podcast.
And that's when we decided, youknow, this is in fact, the
actual day, the day of thedecision, I can even remember
the day of the decision.
So we were we'd gone to go andlook at a an old building that

(26:41):
could have been a potential bedand breakfast, and because
that's what we thought we weregoing to do originally.
So we were there and it was in alittle village called Endevil
We, and um we've gone to go andlook at it, and we were staying
in a in a bed and breakfast, andum we we didn't speak any
French, so we were trying totalk to this woman in the bed
and breakfast who didn't speakany English about the area and
stuff, and it wasn't goinganywhere.
And she said, Look, hang on,hang on.

(27:03):
And she brought this uh personin called Marianna, who's now a
really good friend.
So Marianna was English and shelived in uh this village, and so
we said to Marianne, Oh, youknow, we're thinking of moving
want to move to the Alps, wantto set up a bed and breakfast,
you know, what do you think?
We're seeing this this thing,this property, and she said, and
we said what we thought wewanted to do and everything.
And she said, No, no, no, I Iknow where you need to go.

(27:24):
You need to drive over theCauldinoye, and you need to go
to the Champsor Valley becauseyou've got everything that you
need there.
You've got the white water,you've got the climbing, you've
got uh the high, you know, allthe things that we were
interested in.
So the next day we drove overthe Col de Noye, which is a
famous Tour de France cyclingcall, so it's quite dramatic.
And uh it was pretty dramatic,so we were like, Wow, this is
cool.
And then uh arrived in uh SaintBonnet, which is the village,

(27:46):
the first sort of village youcome to, and I can just remember
like arriving in the village,and there was a minibus like in
front of us in the car park, andall these people getting out of
the minibus, and there wereropes hanging out of rucksacks
and you know, walking bootsdangling, and and I just
thought, oh yeah, this is it.
And and and the village itselfwas just so beautiful.
It was really it's actually nowI know a bit more about the

(28:08):
village.
It's an old um, you know,medieval uh Roman, you know,
village, and it's still gotremnants of of that in there,
like stone places where theywould uh weigh their their corn,
you know, stone things anyway.
But so yeah, so this village wasreally, really pretty, and I
just thought, yeah, this is thisis this is perfect.
So that's that we decided thatthat was what that was it, that
was the place.

SPEAKER_00 (28:28):
And then we because I think that your your story
will inspire people.
You know, I think there's a lotof people that are in a place
doing a job that's just notright for them, and and maybe
it's for family reasons orwhatever reasons they want to
kind of leave everything behindand and move to a new place.
So my question, if you don'tmind, is were you still working

(28:50):
for BBC?
What were you doing back homewhile you were looking for the
place?
And how did you and your ex, youknow, do that?
Honestly, just how did you doit?

SPEAKER_02 (29:03):
It's yeah, so well it coincides with getting
pregnant.
So, um, I mean, basically, we'dmade the decision that we we
wanted to make the make themove, and when we f when we made
that decision and we definedwhere we wanted to be, it was a
case of what we're gonna do.
And originally our original planwas to set up a bed and
breakfast because that was whateverybody did.
There was a programme on thetelly at the time called No

(29:23):
Going Back, and it was all aboutpeople doing that.
So that was kind of ourinspiration.
Yeah, by the by, so we so I hadmy maternity leave, so that was
the that was that was thecushion of being able to move
and have a little bit of asalary before, you know, having
nothing.

SPEAKER_01 (29:39):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (29:40):
So that was the sort of cushion, but obviously then,
of course, you know, did didcome time with actually also
having to look after a baby,which you know was quite time
consuming.

SPEAKER_00 (29:50):
So yes, they don't give you maternity leave so that
you can leave the country.

SPEAKER_02 (29:54):
So No, but I get that.

SPEAKER_00 (29:56):
But good for you.
You took advantage of it.
Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 (29:59):
So yeah, so we we we moved when when I was on
maternity leave, and uh, we veryquickly realized, because this
is before Airbnb and booking andall the rest of it, when we
started to think about becausewe'd found this place we were
gonna invest in to do a bed andbreakfast.
But then when we started to lookinto it, we're thinking, well,
where where are we gonna youknow, nobody's heard of this
place, nobody's heard of theSouthern French Alps, so where

(30:20):
are we gonna market this?
No one's you know, and that'swhen we realized actually we
don't want to do a bed andbreakfast, we want to actually
market this, you know, sell thisplace and create trips here, you
know, have a tour operator.
There were no tour operatorsbasically.
So that was how that was it allstarted.
And so we ditched the bed andbreakfast, and instead of having
to invest all of our house saleinto a new we it cost us two

(30:41):
grand to build a website, andthat's how it started.

unknown (30:44):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (30:44):
Ah, very cool.
Yeah.
And and it makes it makes sensebecause if there are no tour
operators and nobody knows thearea, a bed and breakfast would
be pretty hard.
But if because it's hard to justnow it's yeah, now it's
different because people likeyourselves came in and set up
tour operations and helped getthe word out there.
And I'm sure the bed andbreakfast owners in the valley
really like that.

SPEAKER_02 (31:06):
Yeah, and and I mean it's a complete different uh
world now, with with you know,you now you just put it on
booking and it'll be fine.

unknown (31:12):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (31:13):
But you know, or or not just other um places that
you can put your thing, butthere's a it's a different world
for sure, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, it's a differentworld.
But yeah, so that was the thatwas kind of how it started.
So there we are.
We arrived when we were arrivedin Saint Bornet, Annie was four
months, that's my our our baby.
She was four months old, and weliterally arrived and um had not

(31:35):
had nothing.
We'd sold our house andeverything in the UK, and we
arrived with nothing, didn'tspeak a word of French.
And um we we ended up stayingwith a couple who one of the
very rare English-speakingpeople who actually still speaks
to me in French, called aScottish guy called Donald and
Agnes, who ran a bed andbreakfast.
They've now they've now retired,but um, we stayed with them and

(31:56):
I lived in one of their roomsfor like six months at the bed
and breakfast, and they reallyhelped just like well learning
French, uh speaking to us inFrench, and just helping me
because uh because obviously youknow I'd I had no idea about
tourism, I'd absolutely no ideaabout anything to do with
tourism or running a business orany of those things or speaking
French.
So it was all about all bringingup a baby.

(32:17):
All right, you know, everythingwas you know, everything was
everything was new.

SPEAKER_00 (32:20):
So um it was everybody that's everybody
that's listening to this rightnow wants me to ask the question
what was your ex-husband'sbackground?
What was he doing during this?
Did he have any experience inany of this stuff?
Was he enthusiastic about it?
So tell us as much as you canabout that to kind of help
people understand what you guyswere going through.

(32:41):
So not everything, because Iknow he's your ex.
We don't have to go into all thedetails.

SPEAKER_02 (32:45):
No, no, I won't go to all of it.
I'll be very brief.
So he came from a retailbackground, so he was in retail,
like he worked for Aldi.
You know, if you know Aldi, thesupermarket.
So supermarket retail,basically.
So he had no idea either.
I didn't speak a word of Frencheither.
And um, I mean, basically, verycutting a very, very long story
short, uh, we got divorced aftera few months, and uh he went

(33:06):
back to England and I stayed.

SPEAKER_00 (33:08):
Okay, all right.
So it doesn't play that big of arole.
I mean, it does.

SPEAKER_02 (33:11):
No, so he so so we we we it didn't work out.
He went back to England, andthen I was faced with this
decision.
I still had some maternityleave.
I had three weeks of mymaternity leave left, and I had
this decision to make of okay,we're getting we're getting
divorced, I'm in France, I stilldon't speak French with
mountains with a baby,undiscovered mountains, you
know, hadn't really doneanything at that point.

(33:33):
So what should I do?
And I decided to stay, which waswhich was the right decision.
Obviously, now I'm really happyI didn't make that decision, but
it was a really hard decision atthe time.
And um and I just thought I Ican't go back because if I go
back, I'll just always bethinking, well, what would have
happened if I'd have stayed?

SPEAKER_00 (33:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (33:50):
So so I just couldn't go back.

SPEAKER_00 (33:52):
And did you I'm curious, did you have people in
your life back home trying topersuade you to choose
differently or encouraging you?
Because I imagine probably hadfriends and family back home
saying, Oh, you should come backand stay with us or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 (34:08):
Yeah, I suspect.
Lots of being pulled in lots ofdifferent directions, you know,
and and everything.
But I just no, I just knew I'vebeen thinking, I've been
dreaming about this for years.
You know, I was very, very, verysure that this is what I wanted,
and um and I was determined thatit was gonna happen, basically.

SPEAKER_00 (34:27):
Oh, wow.
That's powerful.

SPEAKER_02 (34:29):
So yeah, but it was it was really hard.
I think now if you ask me if Iwould I do it again, I probab
well I would, because obviouslyI know the outcome, but would I
go through that again?
No, I wouldn't.
It was really, really hard.
I think that if I think aboutthe you know, what is the
emotion that that I can rememberfeeling the most at that time,
and I think actually it wasloneliness.

(34:51):
I was really, really lonelybecause I couldn't speak to
anybody.
Like the only person I couldspeak to was was was Donald, who
insisted on speaking to me inFrench anyway, and he's a bloke,
so it's not the same.
And Marianna, who became afriend, is the mar the first
Marianna that I met to.
But other than that, I hadnobody, and and okay, you can
speak to your friends on thephone, you can speak to your
family on the phone, but theydon't understand where you're

(35:13):
at.

SPEAKER_01 (35:13):
Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (35:14):
Because changing, even yeah, it's France and
England, it's not like it's likea huge different culture or
anything, but it is different,you know, it is different, and
there's a whole system tonavigate, you know, uh
everything's and the language,and just being able to express
your emotions with with afriend.
I there was no, you know, on akind of daily basis, and having
a baby and all of the things,you know, when you've got a new

(35:35):
baby, that there's a whole loadof new emotions and things that
you want to talk to people aboutthat I couldn't do that.
I just couldn't, I just didn'thave anyone to do that with.
So I think the the hardest bitwas being lonely and then you
know, and also not knowing whatI was doing and trying to, you
know, work my work it all out bymyself.
Like, you know, because I Icouldn't even go to a I couldn't

(35:58):
go to anything like a course orlessons or uh or even at the
time, you know, now you seethere's loads of online stuff.
It wasn't nothing like that atthe time.
You know, you're kind of like,well, researching, you know, how
do you r run a tour?
What is a tour operator?
How do you run what insurance doI need?
You know, what is package travelroute regulations?
What you know, what are all ofthese things?

SPEAKER_00 (36:18):
How do I learn French?

SPEAKER_02 (36:20):
Yeah, and also how do I learn French?
And what are the rules inFrance?
Are they different to the UK andand Europe?
And it was so yeah, it was itwas just very hard.

SPEAKER_00 (36:30):
I and Sally, honestly, the question I want to
ask you is, and I don't evenknow how you would answer it,
but the question I want to askyou is how did you do it?
Do you know?
Are you able to put your fingeron how you managed to make it
happen?

SPEAKER_02 (36:42):
I think just having the dream, having that dream and
wanting to make it happen.
I think, you know, I I you know,and also, you know, living here
is just this, you know, you're dyou're like you can go out in
the in the mountain.
I can walk out in the mountainslike from my door.
In the winter I go skiing fromyou know, literally not from my
door, but almost, and seeing thethe views and uh wanting my

(37:06):
children to have that, you know,wanting them to be in this
beautiful place and having cleanair and being able to go skiing
and you know there's like yeah,just being really wanting that,
just wanting it, like wanting toto to that's powerful.
Yeah, that's yeah, just wantingto my kids, you know, wanting
Annie to be on skis when she'sthree and want, you know, to to

(37:27):
go climbing, and and of courseyou can do that in the UK.
You can go on skiing holidaysand you can all of that, but
it's just not the same as livingin it.

SPEAKER_00 (37:34):
Not the same, yeah.
What's um what's the I guess thequestion is, what's the piece of
advice that you wish somebodyhad given you, or what's the
advice you would give to yourpast self that you know, now in
hindsight, looking back and likewhat's the advice you wish that
you could have given yourself orsomebody would have given you
when you were going through allthis?

SPEAKER_02 (37:55):
I think it would have been very good advice to go
and get a job, although it wouldhave been very difficult because
I didn't speak French, but to goand get a job in France so that
I had the security of a salaryto do that first bit of learning
French and understanding thesystem.
Yeah.
Because that was that wasprobably well, that was the
hardest bit.
Do you know we try and having aconversation with an activity

(38:16):
provider and you're saying,okay, so you know, they don't
speak English really, and you'reyou don't really speak French,
and there wasn't GoogleTranslate, and you're sort of
trying to say, you know, um, youknow, I'm gonna sell your
rafting, this is the price.
I want a commission.
What's a commission?
So you're gonna charge themmore.
No, I'm gonna charge them thesame, and you're gonna give me
it less.

SPEAKER_00 (38:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Negotiating all that stuff whenyou're not even it's kind of new
to you and you're figuring itout, and I suspect, right?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (38:43):
Yeah, and also this is as I was saying before, it's
a really like it's not a placenow, it's it's evolved, but at
the time that you know, peopledidn't really work with tour
projects, so they haven'tactually understood what they
didn't actually know whatcommission was, for example.

SPEAKER_01 (38:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (38:58):
Like, so you know, that that, you know, yeah, I
mean the whole thing has evolvedso much, it's just yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (39:05):
So it's interesting to me that the advice you said
was get a job.
I'm gonna boil it down, I'mgonna summarize it a little bit,
but the advice would have beenget a job.
Were there people in your lifeat that time telling you, Sally,
go get a job?

SPEAKER_02 (39:21):
No, no, not really.
No.

SPEAKER_00 (39:24):
Okay.
Your parents are much moreunderstanding than mine.

SPEAKER_02 (39:28):
I don't think anybody said that.
But I'm trying to get a jobanyway.
But there wasn't a job availableto me without speaking French,
apart from cleaning or you know,that kind of job.

SPEAKER_00 (39:38):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They didn't have remote jobs, soyou couldn't didn't have remote
jobs.

SPEAKER_02 (39:44):
No.
So yeah, but yeah, now ifsomebody wanted to do that, I
would say get a job with anothertour operator.
You know, learn the ropes.
You know, learn the ropes andlearn learn learn how this how
the how the industry works.
Obviously learn the language andhave do that with the security
of having, you know, a salary,so you haven't got that
pressure.
I mean, I didn't earn anything,like zero, for five years.

SPEAKER_00 (40:08):
Ooh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (40:09):
Because it was just so hard, you know, like you
know, I didn't know what I wasdoing.
And um, I had a baby, and yeah,it was just so it was a very
long, it was a very long slog.

SPEAKER_00 (40:19):
I spoke with someone recently that kind of handed it
the same thing when she startedher business, and she said, I
just look back at it as aninternship.
I wasn't making money, but Ilearned a lot, and it's kind of
like an internship.
A five-year-long internship isit is difficult when you've got
a child and in a country youdon't speak the language.

SPEAKER_02 (40:39):
Yeah, and also on your own, like now.
The other advice I would say islike join, there's loads of
networks now, which of which II'm in, you know.
So no, go join these networksand go to these discussions.
You can now go to like webinarswith people in the same tourism
industry as you from all overthe world and listen to their
problems and their hurdles andwhat solutions they have.

(41:00):
I mean, that's so valuable.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (41:03):
It's it's kind of like yeah, it's kind of what
we're doing right now.
You and I are having aconversation that other tour
operators and other people thataspire to do what you've done
are listening to, and they canbenefit from your story and and
hear the advice.
And it is good advice becausehonestly, yeah, if someone came
to me right now and said, Jason,I know you work with a lot of
tour operations, you got a lotof experience in this, I want to

(41:24):
start my own tourism business.
I I would probably say, Well,have you worked in tourism?
Have you worked for anybodybefore?
And if the answer is no, evenwith all these amazing
resources, I would say, Youshould go get a job with a tour
operator, even if an like youcould even if it's an
internship, you know?

(41:44):
Yeah.
Do two years instead of you knowthe five years that Sally had to
do, go do two years not makingany money, but learning it
properly.
Spending someone else's money,yeah, the mistakes you make, or
you know, whatever, it and learnit properly, and you just get
get ahead that much quicker.
So um how did you end uplearning French?

(42:05):
Other than just necessity, justbeing there, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (42:08):
Just kind of like, yeah, just having to, you know,
my first the first language isthe first words were, you know,
you know, I won't do it inFrench because you don't speak
French, but when I had baby,nappies, feeding time, bottle,
you know, those kind ofconversations.
And then yeah, just gradually, Imean, I you know, I I think it
probably took me three yearsbefore I remember, I remember
going to someone's 50th, afriend's fiftieth, and being in

(42:31):
a it was like, you know, it'shorror.
Oh my god, I've got to go to agroup thing and like speak to
lots of people.
There's gonna be lots of peopletalking, I'm not gonna be able
to understand anything.
And I remember standing in likea group, you know, it was
outside and there were threepeople convers having
conversation.
I was in this group of threepeople having a conversation.
I understood the wholeconversation.
I was like, yes.
And not only did I understandthe whole conversation, I was
able to contribute to theconversation at the end.

(42:53):
And I was like, yes, I've madeit.
I can speak French.

SPEAKER_00 (42:57):
That that's a big accomplishment because you know,
in my situation, I'm spending alot of time in the the Spanish
world and I'm learning span I'mlearning Spanish basically the
same way.
I have some I have someadvantages.
Obviously, I've got GoogleTranslate when I need it, and
I've you know got some apps onmy phone, but I agree, like a
one-on-one conversation I canget through because they know
that I don't speak it very well.

(43:17):
If they speak slowly, do prettywell one-on-one.
But as soon as one or two otherpeople join the conversation,
especially if they're all nativeSpanish speakers, it changes
drastically.
All of a sudden, all three ofthem are trying to speak to me.
Just an example is you know, ifI'm looking for a bus stop or
something, I stop someone on thestreet, and I think I'm doing

(43:38):
just fine having theconversation with them.
But as soon as they turn tosomebody else and say, Hey, this
guy's looking for this, and thenthat person starts talking, and
then someone else is walking by,and all of a sudden I've got
three people trying to give meinstructions, and I have no
idea.
It went from 90% understandingof what was going on to zero
really fast.
So I'm just I'm acknowledgingyou.

(44:00):
I I I would feel the same way ifI had that moment of three other
people.
I'm like, oh my gosh, Iunderstand what they're talking
about.
So that's very, very cool.

SPEAKER_01 (44:08):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (44:08):
So yeah, no, yeah.
Yeah.
And the other, the other bigmoment in terms of how I came to
be here where I am now fromthere is when I met my now
husband.
So I'm now married to Bernard,Guillaume, obviously.
That's my very Franco-English,you know, Sally's like a really
English name, and uh Guillaumeis a really French name, so I

(44:29):
really love that.
I love the fact that I'm SallyGuillaume.
Um anyway, so Bernard was a Imet him after um about yeah,
after that kind of three-yearkind of uh period, and um he he
was a guide, he's a guide, he'sa mountain guide.
So um we met because yeah, he hewe I had a group.
So I now I had clients, youknow, last.

(44:52):
And I had a group, I had a groupof four people um who were
supposed to do a mountain calledLes Rui, which is like a
mountaineering summit, andthere's a limit to how many
people you can have with eachguide.
And so I had my guide Philippe,who'd been booked for ages.
But then the the the the thegroup was two adult parents with
adults adult parents two parentswith adult children and the
adult the adult children wantedto bring their partners so the

(45:14):
group became six but quite lastminute so I needed a second
guide but there weren't anythere was no one around it was
peak season there was nobodyavailable so I said we must find
someone I said well the onlyperson I could find is this guy
called Bernard but he doesn'tspeak a word of English So I
said well that's okay I'lltranslate you know I'll come
along and translate because Ican speak French now so that's

(45:37):
how we met so we we met thereand it was a real love at first
sight we we spent the wholemountain ignoring the clients
and talking to each other and Ifelt very guilty about it
afterwards but yeah we we gottogether pretty much it was um
you know there um and just toreassure the clients they came
back and I did speak to Gareththe dad and said said oh you

(45:58):
know you know apologize for youknow ignoring your oh no it's
fine in fact it was such aspecial time for us because
actually our son one of the sonsgot married and named one of the
tables after the mountain soit's now the love mountain.

SPEAKER_00 (46:14):
That's yeah that's very cool.
What a great story.
Um all right so his name'sbetter than I is that right
better than that yeah am Isaying it right okay is he was
he did he get involved with yourbusiness right away?
I don't even know if he'sinvolved with it now.
So tell me a little bit aboutthat.

SPEAKER_02 (46:31):
So he he's um an a guy he's a high mountain guy so
he's independent if you like umbut he is the guide for all of
our well not that we we otherguys as well but he's the main I
I say he's like the head guidefor all of our trips.
Yeah so he he he uh his passionhe he's a high mountain guide so
high mountain guide if you don'tknow what a high mountain guide
is the sort of highestqualification in mountains you

(46:52):
can have it's um in in in inwell in in Europe I think so
they can do everything fromclimbing, vefrata, canyoning,
mountaineering, ice climbing,ski touring, ski mountaineering,
anything basically involvesropes and mountains and ice axes
and crampons, those kind ofthings.
So you can do all of those kindof things and climbing and his

(47:15):
passion is nature.
So he's a real passionate naturewatcher and um so that's how
that's how element has come intoour holidays.
So basically it was a sort of Igot to know more about the
mountains through Bernard andyeah it's it's a very
complimentary relationship.
You know I I do all of theoffice work now and all the
organising and everything elseand he's the sort of mountain so

(47:38):
it's sort of grown you know I Idon't know if I hadn't met met
met Bernard where it would havegone.
You know he's he's a big key toit because his his local
knowledge and his passion andyou know all of that combined
with my skills which arebasically organizational well
not that great at marketing butI try to be you know all all the
all the all the office stuff ifyou like they they've kind of

(48:00):
those two skill sets have cometogether and that's what really
is undiscovered mountains.

SPEAKER_00 (48:04):
I think you're I'm just gonna mention this maybe
you've heard this before but Ithink your skill set is your
determination.
The organization stuff yeah okaythere's a lot of organized
people there's a lot of peoplethat are good at office stuff
but that if if somebody asks mewhat's Sally's superpower it's
not gonna be oh she's organizedand you know obviously from this
conversation it's just sheerdetermination and that's obvious

(48:26):
to anybody that's listening tothis.
And I want to ask you really thereason you went on this climb
with the clients and Bernard wasbecause he didn't speak English.
So has that changed?
Yeah he now speaks English yeahI figured that was the case but
I wanted to bring that up incase anybody heard you say he

(48:49):
does he he's the lead guide andif they're still I don't think
he speaks English but yeah okayso and we have you know and and
and we have a son together so Iwe've now the family unit is
four so with my my daughter andour son so but they're kind of
you know I'm Annie's 20 now andum Tommy's 16 and he's 17.

SPEAKER_02 (49:08):
So yeah and they're they're both bilingual and they
both you know that like my dreamhas come true like they they
they're bilingual they are bothgreat skiers they both climb
they both love the mountains youknow so yeah I've achieved what
I set out to do.

SPEAKER_00 (49:25):
That is so cool.
What's what language is um is Idon't even know how to say this
in a bilingual relationship orwhatever like what's the
language of the house?

SPEAKER_02 (49:34):
So it's probably well not probably it is French.
We speak French and I speakEnglish to the kids okay is it
when we're all together we speakFrench.
And then sometimes I'll lap todo English if I want to say
something quickly.

SPEAKER_00 (49:49):
All right all right very cool is that I'm just
curious is that intentional thatyou speak English to the kids?
Yeah tell me about that.

SPEAKER_02 (49:58):
So yeah I I think any bilingual family will tell
you that so when the kids arelearning another language if you
want your children to learnanother language then when
they're little they need to havesomeone that they associate with
that language.
So you should always speak inthe same language to your
children when they're whenthey're growing up so that
because then they separate thetwo languages they associate
English with mummy and Frenchwith with daddy or papa and that

(50:23):
helps them to to create the twolanguage centers apparently in
their in their brains.

SPEAKER_00 (50:29):
That's cool it makes absolute sense it's something I
never thought of but it makes uhmakes absolute sense so tell me
if you don't mind tell me alittle bit more about the kids
they sound like a little olderthan kids but um you said
they're both into the outdoorsdoing that stuff do I can you I

(50:49):
know you don't want to speak forthem if you're like me I like
somebody asked me what what doesyour son want to do?
I don't know like I mean I knowbut I don't want to put that
pressure on him to answer thatquestion directly myself but
what are your thoughts on yourkids uh do you see them
potentially working in thetourism business or are they
going different directions?

SPEAKER_02 (51:06):
Do you have it or do you have any idea or do you even
want to discuss it yeah thatthey're they're they're not
gonna work in the tourismindustry.

SPEAKER_00 (51:12):
Okay it sounds like you know that they've already
they they already made theirchoices so Annie's already she's
on on uh learning well she'straining to be a doctor so she's
doing medicine studies yeah andmy son wants to be an engineer
okay very but they but theywould they but they definitely
do mountains in their spare timeit's uh that's that's that's

(51:32):
pretty neat um what I think Ihave asked you like kind of what
advice you would have givenyourself I think we gave a lot
of good advice for people butI'm just really inspired by your
just tenacity and just like thisis my dream this is my vision
were there tricks or is theresomething you can put your
finger on that helped you stickthrough it other than just
saying well it's what I wanted.
It's what I always wanted werethere tips or tricks or

(51:54):
something that you were doingthat kept you focused like that?

SPEAKER_02 (51:58):
No I think it is literally just the dream but
it's also um having support aswell so I had good friends here.
I made really good friends umdespite the language problem so
yeah so yeah I made good friendsand you know they really helped
me to to get there and thenobviously meeting Bernard and

(52:22):
you know when that all cametogether that that was really
when it really started to sortof blossom I would say so I
don't know how long I would havecarried on in that kind of state
of you know that kind ofloneliness bit before I cracked.
You know I I think there's alimit to how long you can do
that for and three years is waslong enough.

SPEAKER_00 (52:42):
I'm not gonna compare my my struggles to yours
but I've been traveling for fourand a half years basically a
solo traveler and I get theloneliness part but I don't have
a baby to take care of and I'mnot and I've and I'm able to
work remotely so I can't evenimagine what you were going
through at that time.
So that's I think that's why I'mso impressed.
Very very cool.
What's what's next?
Do you have anything excitingcoming up here in the next

(53:04):
couple years?
Any business changes or anyanything that's got you excited
and focused?

SPEAKER_02 (53:11):
Just yeah I mean so up until kind of reasonably
recently you know the wholepurpose of Undiscovered
mountains was really just tohave a lifestyle to bring my
kids up as as I think you'veprobably got got that got the
message.
And now that they're starting toleave home and I can see you
know like it's a different youknow it's a different stage of
life and I've kind of realizedthat actually I do now know

(53:32):
quite a lot about tourism and Ican build really good trips and
people come back and I've gotsome amazing clients like you
know really lovely clients andsome great stories from from you
know you know clients that kindof keep coming back and you're
like well what we're gonna donow and I've done everything.
So so yeah so just yeah it's sonow my kind of goal is to build

(53:55):
up it build up the business Isuppose so it's more than just a
lifestyle business so that it ityou know so that we that we have
a little team and that you knowthat we can um it can run also
without me you know so that Ican take a step back and just
yeah keep I mean the the thingthat keeps me going doing the
business is the clients you knowis is being able to you know

(54:16):
we've got a recent story likebecause the one of the
activities that I my first sortof passion activity was ski
touring that was one of thethings I really loved before I'm
before I moved to the Alps andwanted to carry on when I now I
now I'm into ski a cross countryskiing but anyway and we had a
client um called Andrew who Ithink it was probably about five
years ago now he he joined usfor a ski touring trip and he

(54:37):
was you know limit just aboutable to cope with the ski
touring trip you know he waslike the his ability was quite
was was kind of in the at thebottom end of the group he won't
mind me saying this and anywayhe struggled through and he got
through the end of the you knowhe did it and he was very proud
of himself for you know doingthe whole tour and then he came
back and but this time he cameback prepared you know he'd gone
and had like done loads ofdownhill skiing and loads of off

(54:59):
piste and he came back and hewas really prepared and yeah and
and it showed and he was likeloads better and you know had a
much better tour.
And then then he came back againthere's other people as well
coming back but this just he'ssort of the key the kind of key
key thing and he did the Hawkroute which is kind of like the
I suppose it's one of the moreit's quite technical it's quite

(55:20):
hardcore ski touring ski imagineand we did that the the more
alpine version of it with youknow carrying your skis on your
back and walking up in cramponsand you know glaciers and quite
quite quite technical and quitecommitting um and he was like
you know he's he wrote thisreview at the end saying
something like this is thepinnacle of my ski touring
experience it's the best thingI've ever done in my life you

(55:41):
know really kind of gushing sortof like you know he let his his
emotions out um I can't rememberthe exact after but but you know
this like really amazing review.
It wasn't actually even in areview it was written in an
email you know in a thank youemail and I'm now sitting in my
bed with a couple of earls greytea having a hero's welcome you
know he just it was just likethis amazing sort of like

(56:02):
experience that he'd had and Ifelt really you know proud of
that because I felt that we weresort of you know we were
responsible for that you know weintroduced him his first ski
tour he then got better he gotthe bug he c he did this big
challenge and then the best bitof it all was that he then
decided to bring his daughter ona ski touring trip and introduce

(56:24):
his daughter and her boyfriendto ski touring whilst they were
young enough young enoughbecause he started it when he
was in his 60s he he discoveredski touring as a retired person.
Wow okay so he was in his wellactually don't know how old he
was but he was retired.

SPEAKER_00 (56:37):
So he's like I'm I need to get you know my kids
into this before they get tooold and so they came this year
and um we had a lovely ski tourwith them and um and they've now
got the book too so yeah thoseare the sort of stories that
keep you going and you s youknow and and yeah make make it
all worth worthwhile yeah Iagree and as I heard you saying

(57:00):
that I was thinking you know ifit was if it was just the job
like okay we're gonna puttogether this trip we're gonna
take them up the mountain we'regonna drop them back off at
their hot whatever and they'renever gonna write a good review
they're never gonna say thankyou they're never gonna bring
back their other family membersit's just the routine of we pick
them up we go do this we bringthem back we never hear from

(57:23):
them again I think a lot ofpeople would not want to do
tourism anymore.
It's a lot of work yeah you knowI I know I had a I had I did the
I had the hot air balloon ridebusiness and it was a lot of
work to manage everything getpeople out there go do the thing
and if at the end of the daythey just shook my hand and said

(57:45):
okay thanks bye so it wasn'tworth the work.
It was the reviews and I think alot of people in this business
resonated like I would just sitthere and I would just wanted to
see the reviews and read thereviews and they would say so
you know how this was an amazingexperience I had people get
engaged or married in theballoon or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 (58:01):
And yeah yeah without the reviews and that
those kudos sometimes itwouldn't be worth the work is
that that's kind of what I hearyou saying is you you really
appreciate hearing that stuffright yeah yeah yeah that's the
that's the payment you knowthat's that's what that that's
where the the job satisfactioncomes from like yeah you know

(58:21):
you get you get you put all thiseffort in and you you you always
go out of your way you knowyou're always doing you know and
and you're right it it's a lotof work it's a lot of work to
put together a trip and whensomebody re appreciates that and
and when you've when you've madeit like their life experience or
they've proposed on like youknow these sort of big things or

(58:43):
someone's big birthday andthey've had they you know it's
the best like we recently had uma client who got in touch with
us and said to us oh we came onholiday about 10 years ago as a
couple it was the best holidaywe've ever had and we want to
come back with our children.

SPEAKER_00 (58:56):
Yeah that's so cool.
Yeah I love it.

SPEAKER_02 (58:58):
You know and that is like you know 10 years has
passed and they still think it'sthe best holiday they've ever
had.
Now how many holidays have theyhad in that 10 years and now
they want to bring their kidsyou know this is like a a young
couple bringing their youngerfamily it's not the same as the
um Andrew with his adult childbut but you know that kind of
thing it's like yeah you knowit's it's hard to walk away from

(59:19):
that isn't it what I hear yousaying is you'd like to not have
to do everything yourself maybegrow the team you mentioned so
you don't have to be involved ineverything but it's a really
really hard thing to I don'tknow if it's hard it it it would
it would be hard to just thinkyou know what I'm done I'm just
gonna close the business and andgo travel.

SPEAKER_00 (59:38):
For me that would be hard.

SPEAKER_02 (59:40):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (59:40):
Right?
So what I hear you saying isgrow the team so you can
continue to have thoseexperiences and make those those
moments for people.

SPEAKER_02 (59:48):
Is that am I hearing that right yeah exactly yeah
exactly and and and just cherrypick you know what I do.
So I can I'll go out withclients when they're doing
something that I want to do andwith clients that I like because
they've I like them becausethey've been before and you know
and let the team do all of theyou know ringing up and booking
and all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:04):
So what's the if you were to not if but when you
expand the team what's the firstrole or position that you would
look to fill?

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:12):
So I've got somebody who's just started in operations
so basically I'm selling andthen once they once the once the
the trip is sold I then hand itover to them to do all of the
booking the the accommodationsorganizing the the the guides
and negotiating with the guidescreating you know putting it all
together and giving the creatingthe the we have an app that we

(01:00:35):
give to our clients so creatingthat for the for the client so
all of the kind of admin stuffif you like I'd love someone to
do the marketing for me.
Yeah find marketing is just likea kind of thing that just is
just like an em a bottomless pitof of you know just never yeah
it's like it's not a sciencealthough it probably is a

(01:00:55):
science but it's it feels likeit's um yeah there's no kind of
right or wrong way of doing itand um yeah lots of trial and
error.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:03):
I find that really hard I I think that is the
challenge with marketing isthere's so many things you could
do should do would do peopletell you you should do this, you
should do that.
And there's so many sometimesjust like figuring out which one
am I gonna do and then actuallystick to it is is a challenge
for me.
I don't know if you have thesame experience.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:23):
Exactly it's a it is a challenge and and the world
the the world of tourism notjust the world of tourism but
the world in general has changedso much and is changing so
radically still like you knowwith AI and everything else
that's coming on board you knowthe way people people make
decisions has changed radicallyover the last few years and it's
going to change even moreradically over the next few

(01:01:46):
years.
So keeping pace with that andknowing that you know in tourism
when you're in tourism you're ina global market.
So you're in global you'veyou're competing globally with
companies that have got billionsof dollars of marketing budget
have like you know teams of youknow hundred people just doing
social media for example youknow and when you're a small
business you just don't youcan't compete with that so you

(01:02:09):
know you you can't there's nopoint even trying so it's
finding your way you know aroundthis this this this world where
it seems like you know only thethe big companies have any power
and the the little companieslike ours you've got to you've
you've got to well you've got tohave a a good client base I

(01:02:31):
think I mean that I think thatthat's where it all comes from a
good client base and and andword of mouth but then you know
when you're just one destinationyeah there's a limit to how many
times people can come back.
I mean you know I have hadpeople come back like you know
for like sort of 10 or 11holidays but you know I'm I'm
not surprised if they don't wantto come back again.
You know you know you've doneeverything there is to do here
now you know you might want togo somewhere else yeah yeah so

(01:02:54):
you know there's a the it it isum it is a challenge and um I
haven't got the answer to thechallenge it's just it's just a
case of yeah we're we're luckyin a sense that we've got access
to so much information.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:09):
We've got endless information at our fingertips
but at the same time that meansendless options and choices and
decisions and it just can get sooverwhelming so fast.
And even if you just go intochat GPT or or whatever, you
know I can go there on Tuesdayand say hey come up with the
marketing help me come up with amarketing strategy and then I go

(01:03:30):
on Wednesday and I say hey helpme come up with a marketing
strategy for totally differentthings.
Because there's so many optionsand it's just like it's so hard
to just say you know what I gotto ignore the noise and just
figure out something that I cando consistently and uh because
it's tough.
Anyway so I hear you sayingyou'd like to get somebody to
maybe do some of that marketingheadache stuff for you.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:52):
I get yeah so any market people out there that
want to come and work for me forfree.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:56):
We discussed the internship and what the great
value of being an intern for acouple of years could do for
somebody.
So if you were listening earlierthis is your this is your your
sign time to take advantage ofthat Sally so much fun.
We did we discussed a bunchbunch of things um and just I
just love your your just passionfor creating the life that you

(01:04:16):
created that's I hope more thanone but I hope somebody is
listening to this and somebodywill make a difficult decision
and go follow their vision andtheir dream and make it happen
like you did.
That that's just super cool.
But I want to ask you before wewrap up is there anything that
you wish I would have asked youanything I forgot to ask you or
anything else you want to sharewith our listeners either about

(01:04:36):
you, philosophy of life,undiscovered mountains, France,
Southern Alps anything at allthat you want to share before we
wrap up?

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:44):
No, I think we've talked about everything.
Covered all that didn't we yeahI think I think yeah I'll
probably get off the phone andthink off the call and think oh
yeah I should have said this orshould have said that or
whatever but I will just have tocome back and do it again.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:57):
No problem.
Sally thank you so much this wasa lot of fun I learned a lot
about a different part of theworld that I'm not that familiar
with but more importantly aboutyou and your story and it's uh
super inspiring.
I'm really really happy we hadthis conversation so thanks for
joining me.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:11):
Well thank you thank you for giving me the
opportunity and it was great.
Yeah and we enjoyed it was fun.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:15):
Sounds good.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:16):
I'll talk to you soon bye Sally thank you bye

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Adventure Travel with Sally Guillaume - Undiscovered Mountains France

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Adventure Travel with Sally Guillaume - Undiscovered Mountains France