February 24, 2024 • 51 mins
The Homeless World Cup, founded in 2003, today brings unhoused people together in 70 countries to connect through the universal language of football, each year culminating in a World Cup tournament in a different city. Founder and leader Mel Young, and formerly homeless player turned referee Sarah Frohwein talk with host Desire Wanden about why and how the Homeless World Cup was born, spread across the planet, and is bringing dignity and community to those without a home. “How on earth have we created a system that leaves millions of people living on the streets?” asks Young. “It’s crazy. We don’t have to have it. We sent men to the moon, we invented the internet, and we can fix it. The aim of the Homeless World Cup is not to exist because there will be no homelessness.”
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Welcome to All Power to the Developing, a podcast of the East Side Institute. The Institute is a center for social change efforts that reinitiate human and community development. We support, connect, and partner with committed and creative activists, scholars, artists, helpers, and healers all over the world. In 2003, Institute co-founders Lois Holzman and the late Fred Newman had a paper published with the title “All Power to the Developing.” This phrase captures how vital it is for all people—no matter their age, circumstance, status, race, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation—to grow, develop and transform emotionally, socially and intellectually if we are to have a shot at creating something positive out of the intense crises we’re all experiencing. We hope that this podcast series will show you that, far more than a slogan, “all power to the developing” is a loving activity, a pulsing heart in an all too cruel world.
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The East Side Institute is a hub for a diverse and emergent community of social activists, thought leaders, and practitioners who are reigniting our human abilities to imagine, create and perform beyond ourselves—to develop. Each episode will introduce you to another performance activist or play revolutionary from around the world. To learn more about the East Side Institute you can go to https://eastsideinstitute.org/ Made possible in part by Growing Social Therapeutics: The Baylah Wolfe Fund.Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to All Power to the Developing, a podcast of the Eastside Institute,
where social justice, human development, and community building come together.
This is where you will meet activists, artists, teachers, scholars,
helpers, and healers while bringing creativity, hope, and possibility to individuals
and communities all over the world.
(00:27):
Music.
Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome everyone to this episode of All Power to the Developing.
(00:49):
This is your host Desiree Wandon, Des for short.
And firstly, I would like to wish everyone a happy new year.
Thank you for all your support in 2023. for the podcast of All Power to Developing.
We loved it, and we have a lot more we have in store for you in the year of
2024. Thank you for your continued support.
Today is a very special day. I have some great guests.
(01:12):
Today, we're going to be diving into a global movement that combines the universal
language of football with social change.
Founded in 2003, this extraordinary initiative has been using the power of sport
to transform the lives of people experiencing homelessness.
Homelessness i have with me co-founder of the
homeless world cup mel young and a
(01:32):
former player now a referee that's awesome sarah
frovane how are you guys doing today great good
good to see you yes doing good thank you thank you thank you for being here
with us mel and sarah i mean you first came to my attention as a producer for
performing the world which you were a part of performing the well as our flagship festival,
(01:57):
our flagship event that we hold.
And I was just so remarked by this organization using the game of soccer to
just combat this major issue we're having of homelessness.
So I always had it in my mind, man, I really want to interview these people
because this seems very extraordinary.
And now we're here today. So let's get with it.
(02:17):
Can you kind of share the story of the inception behind the homeless world cup
and and what initially got you inspired um mel.
Well, I've been working with homeless people since 1993 with the Big Issue magazine
in Scotland, which is a magazine sold by homeless people with them keeping the
majority of the cover price,
(02:39):
and then involved in the development of street papers in different countries in the world.
And an organization had been formed, which was really a trade association for
street papers for homeless people around the world called the International
Network of Street Papers. hours.
And the street papers, some of us managed to meet once a year to exchange ideas and share experiences.
(03:04):
And at this conference we were having in 2001, myself and a colleague called
Harold Schmidt, he ran a paper in Austria in a city called Graz.
We were talking after the conference about how good it had been and inspiring
and we'd learned so much, but but there was no homeless people there,
only editors or founders and so on.
(03:25):
And how could we involve homeless people in the same way we were being inspired?
So we talked about all sorts of different ideas over a beer.
And we really couldn't come up with any suggestions.
And there were all sorts of problems, including the problem of language.
And we said, aha, there is an international language, which is called football,
which I think in the US you guys call soccer.
(03:47):
And we were both passionate football fans
harold in fact had played a bit of semi-professional football
and we knew its power and and in
both of our organizations so some of the homeless sellers had formed little
little soccer teams or football teams that were playing and we we knew it was
a very very powerful tool so we said hey look why don't we have a game between
(04:11):
i'm from scotland And then he was from Austria and we were mucking around and
shook hands. There was going to be a game.
And I said, oh, Scotland's going to win. And he said, Austria's going to win.
And then we said, look, why don't we just invite lots of other countries to
come and we'll call it the homeless.
So we were having great fun, you know, in a creative sense.
In the next day we met in the hotel at breakfast and we said hey look this is a great conversation.
(04:35):
And but sometimes these type of conversations they just kind of
stay in the bar or stay in the room and nothing ever happens will we
make it happen and so we said hey yeah let's do that you know we think the the
idea is so good let's make it happen and so in we had the first event in 2003
which kind of took a lot of organizing and it was it was really an outstanding
(04:56):
success And by that success,
we mean that our aim is to get homeless people's lives changed and away from being homeless.
And you know, the results we had in that very high percentage of people getting
off the streets as a result, and a lot of people coming to watch.
So it was a big success in that regard, as far as people concerned.
(05:17):
And so therefore we just kept doing more.
Now obviously behind all that, there's a huge, huge, long, long story.
But in a nutshell, that's what's happened. And then of course,
since then we've kept building it and now we estimate over 1.2 million people
in the 70 odd countries where we have partners working on the ground,
(05:38):
have changed their lives as a result of just being involved in the soccer event.
And so it's very impactful. And because of that, we just keep on doing what
we're doing. Yeah, yeah.
I want to rewind a bit, Mel, because before you even got into the Homeless World
Cup, you said that you were working with a publication that was dealing with the homeless.
(06:00):
What is it about yourself that has this initiative to deal with the homeless?
What is it in your personal history, your personal life that you developed this
need or want to want to work with this population?
I mean, I'm not being homeless myself, luckily.
But but I've always been very passionate about what
(06:21):
I would call social justice and you know
I I don't think anybody in the world should be homeless I
just think how on earth have we created the system so
my background is working as a journalist and I I saw it's a magazine which started
in London when I was visiting there doing a story or something and I thought
you know what What I can do is use some of my journalist skills to create a
(06:46):
magazine similar in Scotland.
And that would be a contribution.
And I firmly believe that if everybody makes small contributions,
then that's how you create change. It doesn't have to be big things,
but kind of small things.
So myself and a friend, we started the magazine and it took off.
(07:08):
It was successful and so we we we kept doing
it and then learned a great deal and grew a great deal
so it it came from my kind of burning passion
about there shouldn't be inequalities and exclusion
in the world and then using a skill to develop it
and then of course the whole thing's growing over that so so that's where
it's where it's come from and you know
(07:30):
in in that journey i've learned a great deal i mean
i'm a great believer in you can learn from anybody so
you learn from a professor of course somebody's very clever you
sit and listen to them but also you can learn from homeless people
as well and we have insights and stories
to tell that are important that people listen to and within
(07:50):
within their voices you can find solutions and one
of those that big learnings for me was about you know having to
try to create family through what you're doing and
that's what we did with the magazine and what we continue to
do with the football and that's one
of the one of many key uh facets about what
we're about so that's that's really where i'm coming.
(08:11):
From and i'm still as passionate about this issue now as
i was then probably even more determined because you know i look at the system
in the world that's creating homelessness and the more crazy this is we don't
have to have it it's a system failure basically and we we can fix it if we want to,
(08:32):
yeah we're going to get deeper into that because that's actually something i
want to i want to get into because it seems like no matter how many buildings
are built no matter how many you know new complexes new condos new apartments
affordable housing estates as they say in the uk,
that it still seems that people can't find a place to live and it gets and it
seems it's getting Getting more terrible.
(08:53):
I want to shift over to you, Sarah, a little bit.
Unfortunately, you dealt with homelessness.
Could you share with us a little the circumstance you dealt with and and maybe
how that led you into initially discovering the Homeless World Cup?
Mine was, luckily enough, only a temporary form of homelessness.
(09:17):
My form of homelessness was just surface offing because we were trying to buy
a property and it kind of flopped to where the homeowner wouldn't move out of their house.
So then we've already left our old property.
So then I've left then with my one-year-old daughter, me and my partner with no housing.
(09:38):
We had nowhere to go at the time. So we ended up...
Everything that we owned into my mother-in-law's house and we
were literally just there on the sofa for months waiting
for properties so the mental health kicked in stress I
had no job at the time it just built up
from there and there and then it got to the point where my
(10:00):
mental health decreeds so badly I got
taken into a hospital near me
for mental health issues that they then then
also helped me find resources up in
a little little place up near the house
i was going to move into where they sort of had
resources and lucky enough one of the workers who
(10:21):
were helping out there knew of the football team street football wales and they
provided us with information and they were like oh do you know you could play
for a foresight and help your mental health because Because I'm not very one
for the group activities you kind of do.
It wasn't for me. It wasn't helping my side of mental health.
(10:42):
It was the more physical, doing things, getting outside helped me a bit.
Then they found that resource so much easier. So I signed straight up to Street Football Wales.
And they were like, oh, so you've had homelessness recently? And I was like, yeah.
And they're like, oh, have you ever thought about trying out for our homeless workup?
(11:02):
And I was like at that point I was like I've never never heard of it it's not.
Wasn't heard of because I've never been in that situation to know enough of
the organisation they were like how about you come and try out and then within
three months tried out and then I found out I was going to Oslo in 2017.
And it was like I went from like rock bottom to like a superstar within like
(11:25):
three months it's like your face was everywhere there was advertisement going
on you were doing like charity organisations organisations to try and raise funds to go away.
It just makes so much of a difference where,
where they need to sort of understanding where some people work differently,
where the football or soccer helps people come out of the shell much better
(11:46):
than it would be productive more than other people going into meetings or therapy.
I find in my case that is a form of therapy doing football.
And it just helped so much.
But it's the understanding I find as well for the homeless side of it is people
understanding the different forms of homelessness.
(12:08):
It's like I was I was very, very lucky in my circumstance not to be put on the streets.
I was lucky I had the family, the resources, but not everyone seems to have that.
And hearing everyone's stories then within Street Football Wales was amazing.
Amazing like they've come from nothing they had nothing to where when they came to training,
(12:29):
they would get like little booster points if they come to training every week
they could get free togs free gloves and if they could it was a nice boost for
them so i would say in the long run,
homeless world cup has meant everything for me it's like in the out long i've
got a job again i've got finally obviously got my home now and i'm just more
(12:49):
productive in the mental health side It's been amazing.
Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that. No problem.
You said something. You said it raises awareness for the different types of homeless.
Here in New York City, we're having a bit of a homeless problem amongst many
states in the United States.
And I think people have this idea that a homeless person is a person with their
(13:13):
clothes shredded and on the floor with a cup.
Up and this is the definitive image of
of what a homeless person is but you just
spoke of of yourself going through a situation that
led you to homelessness there's of course people with transitional housing
there's of course military vets this
is everything in between could you give us a little bit more a little
(13:35):
bit more there and the different forms and also mel you
could you could um add on to this just the different how
the different faces of homelessness how it looks you
know how how it is for different people yeah it's
again obviously my circumstances classes what we call the sofa
surfing where you haven't got your to you
set home your comfort area it's you're
(13:57):
having to provide an others who support you
you haven't got your own place to support yourself
and then i've got others where you like have obviously on the streets that could
be due of eviction lack of money lost a job mental health and you got other
people then who have physically having to run away to go on the streets they
(14:18):
prefer to be on the streets than be at home,
it's understanding like they're not on the streets because they want to be on the streets.
They're not going to hostels they're not going to
hotels for the the joy of it there's like it's understanding that they're there
because they're obviously trying to get away from something then it's like what
you said about the veterans some of them feel more comfortable being out and
(14:41):
about than they do being stuck at certain properties because they don't want to be,
shut down locked down they don't want to be restricted because it doesn't feel
like it's theirs and i find that's very hard for people to understand that.
You can be given something you can be given a bed but if it's not theirs they
(15:02):
don't feel comfortable yeah taking it yeah because it's not there they don't
feel like they've earned it maybe,
it's very hard for people to understand that side of
things it's not all about them being
on substance use it's not about them
having like alcoholism it's it could just be the general being
scared to be elsewhere that and like
(15:23):
like i said before about the the groups they
form their own families on the streets they want to stick in with that group
because they know what they got from them and they don't want to change that
because they know what support group they have around them and i find that some
people if they try and move out from that circumstance maybe class has been rejected,
(15:45):
you're thrown out of the way why are you a traitor it's like no.
It's very hard I think for some people who have been on the street for years,
to move back into society as well as class as society at least,
they're so used to that is their life, some people are so used to it they don't
want some people don't want to go into accommodation that is their life, that is their home,
(16:11):
being there so in that way i can't
think at the moment of different housing circumstances but
the main one is definitely knows what i speak spoken of yeah wow wow um mel
anything to add to that or yeah yeah i think it's it's very interesting what
zero is saying i mean i sometimes describe there's a difference between houselessness and homelessness.
(16:36):
And you mentioned earlier about the issues around you know this building going
on of houses at the beginning of this interview and and it's true the one cause
of homelessness is the lack of,
physical property but actually the the issues about homeless if you if you ask
a child to talk about what's home they they'll talk about kind of you know the
(16:59):
family running around mother smell of of soup in the kitchen, of fire,
mucking around with your annoying brothers and sisters or whatever.
And they won't talk about the door or the windows.
And so much of what we talk about then when we think about homelessness,
we start talking about houselessness.
(17:20):
Now, although that's in the mix there in terms of solutions,
what Sarah's describing there is that you can have four walls,
but actually they're very, very unpleasant because of whatever's happening there.
And what you need is actually environments where people feel safe in terms of where they live.
Now, in part, what we are doing with the Soccer is creating safe environments
(17:43):
where people feel they can come, be with other people and feel safe and then
help hopefully move into safe accommodation.
The second thing I probably want to say just out of this, because I've developed
a kind of global understanding.
Homelessness manifests itself in different ways in different parts of the world,
and that can be dependent on all sorts of factors, including the weather, for example.
(18:06):
And what political parties empower, the attitude of the police,
the attitude of the public, the attitude, et cetera, et cetera.
All of these things are different in different countries in different parts of the world.
And, you know, for the Homeless World Cup, we accept the definition per country.
So we can't get an international definition of this because it's too difficult.
(18:30):
So for example, in England, you know, you can be in a homeless hostel and according
to charity definition, government definition, you're homeless.
But in some African countries, they say if you have any shelter over your head, you're not homeless.
So you've got to be outside. side so we we accept any any different definition
(18:50):
going and as i say there's different there's different it manifests itself differently
but the one common factor i always find,
regardless of what that difference is if you look at
a person who's homeless and into their eyes it's the same thing universally
globally it's one of exclusion and not being part and that is the psychological
(19:11):
part of this that i think so important we do the football making people feel
feel part and changing that look in their eyes.
So that whilst there's all these differences in the world, there's a commonality,
absolutely standard, which is one of people just totally excluded from society.
(19:31):
Absolutely. Thank you both of you for breaking that down because I think it's
a major prevalent issue that has one face and or is viewed in a particular way.
And the more we learn about the different incarnations of it,
I think the more people are going to be enlightened and really start to tackle this global issue.
So thank you. i want to speak a little bit more
(19:52):
about now the sporting aspect
i mean sarah what you just spoke of
earlier i mean you you i even saw like this kind of really big smile on your
face and this twinkle in your eye when you just just described the environment
that you were part of being a part of the homeless world cup and then mel when
(20:12):
i when you know we watched the video during Performing the World,
that video was just amazing and everyone was having a good time and the pitches
just looked really great.
One thing about sports, sports, while entertaining, while challenging us physically,
could also bring the ugly side out in humanity, right?
(20:33):
We know about racism in football.
There's a winner, there's a loser, there's a lot of capitalism involved in it
And while at times it could feel inclusive to everyone, it could be exclusive too.
So how did you build this very inclusive environment?
And what were some of the, was it your, did you have particular ideas?
(20:56):
Were there particular things that you felt with your partners that needed to
be a part of this in order for it to be more of a positive thing?
Like speak a little bit about that, Mel. How, how do you balance and how does
the home homeless world cup balance the intensity of sports with the humanistic
(21:16):
aspect of what you're doing?
Yeah. So, so that's a good question. And one, we spent a lot of time thinking
about before we started this and, and, and have developed it as we go on,
but fundamentally, first of all, it's, it's inclusive,
so it's an inclusive game and we created the game so that any,
anybody can play any standard.
It so it doesn't matter you can be terrible at it and
(21:39):
but but be part of the team or you can
be very very good at and we have across our different teams people have different
standards so we could create an event where very quickly the the the good teams
are in a week in the week-long event they're playing against each other and
they're not so good teams are playing against each other and so everybody's
finding their own level if you like and are able to participate.
(22:02):
We we wanted to have the competitive element in there
because that's kind of normal otherwise you just kind of get be very patronizing
it's like oh you're homeless so you can't play in a competitive game whereas
sports are competitive so it's competitive the teams want to win that's that's
that's quite normal and you know we create a way in which by the end of the week the the the two,
(22:25):
best teams are playing against each other for a position and and the the the
two not so good a good team so playing against the position of each other so
you end up with a position between one and 48 but everybody gets the same medal
if you like so it's competitive but it's inclusive,
so that that's that's very very important to our staff that structure of the event.
(22:47):
Then secondly we we create an atmosphere which
is one of fair play so that the managers and
so on are instructing everybody to play in in any way which
is fair and what's very interesting for us us
is the players are competitive when they want
to win the game and they don't like to lose of course but
a minute or so or less after they've lost they
(23:08):
they are hugging the other players that have
won and there's something about where the players have come from the fact they've
all come from homelessness that that actually brings them together as as one
one group one family if you like they maybe can't speak the same language they
definitely can't speak the same language language, but they kind of understand
each other automatically.
(23:29):
So an atmosphere is created whereby we're going to win, but we're going to win in a proper way.
And then crucially for us, and this is where maybe Sarah could talk about,
you know, we have referees and it's a contact sport, so you need referees.
And these referees are very important for us and they volunteer from all over
(23:51):
the world and come every year, but referee it in a way which isn't harsh.
They are supportive of the players. They understand what's going on.
And so you need order in anything and you've got the order, but you've got it
done in a way which is inclusive.
So that we invent something which has values in it and which is played in a
(24:12):
particular way and which creates everyone to sing and dance together in the end.
And that's what sports should be all about, in my view. It's very, very powerful.
It's a really powerful tool to create change.
And we create a way in which everybody's contributing. meeting so i'm
always saying i you might think referees are
(24:33):
not relevant but referees are really important to us because they
are actually in encompassing the attitude and values of of our sport and and
then we have success and i i tell you i'm always saying to the professional
side you should come and watch this because this is how how sport should be
played we hadn't get any Any ever red card, any red cards.
(24:55):
And the red cards will be given if the players do something.
But we hardly ever get any because it's not played in that way.
Wow. I mean, I feel like putting on a pair of boots right now,
lacing them up and getting on the pitch. But we're going to take a short commercial break.
And when we're back, we're going to learn some more about the Homeless World Cup.
We're going to get on that pitch with Sarah, find out how it is being a former
(25:17):
player and now a referee.
Music.
And we're going to learn a little bit more about the Homeless World Cup.
This is All Power to the Developing, and we'll be right back after this short commercial break.
Hi, I'm Melissa Meyer, Associate Director of the Eastside Institute.
(25:39):
Welcome to All Power to the Developing. I hope you're enjoying today's conversation.
In each episode, we introduce you to some amazing performance activists,
play revolutionaries, and developmentalists from around the world who talk to
us about their creative grassroots efforts to build a better world.
If you like what you hear, please follow and share the series.
(26:01):
You can find us on Amazon, Spotify, and Podbean.
We'd love to hear your comments and ideas. is. Like everything at the Institute,
the growth of all power to the developing depends upon the people who create it and benefit from it.
We hope you're one of them. Thanks for your support. And now back to our conversation.
Music.
(26:31):
To the developing we are back we are back with mel young and sarah frovane the homeless world cup.
Mel he was just kind of breaking down the the spirit
of the game and how he's able to balance the intensity
of sports and the intensity that comes with
all of it with the humanistic approach to what
they're doing for the homeless world cup sarah has
(26:53):
a former player i was a former player
or two how long how long was your career uh one
year i was playing for
years before that but more 11 aside so about from
the age of maybe 10 till about
20 and then stop stop had
(27:13):
my daughter and stopped in street football then yeah how was it for you as a
player first of all to for uh you You spoke a little bit earlier about you being
involved in and you being involved in and how just being a part of this whole
process was able to kind of lift you out of where you were.
Can you speak a little bit deeper about that and maybe what you saw from other
(27:35):
players, other people that you met?
And then what led you into transitioning? I mean, obviously the body breaks
down, but what led you into going into a referee and speak about that?
You know, you're now on the pitch with the players.
You have a different vantage point. you're able to see the game in a different way.
You have the responsibility and the upkeep of making sure the game is played
(27:56):
fairly and the rules are being engaged in the proper way. So speak a little
bit about that experience.
It's more than just being on the field. It's a pretty major role.
Yeah, it was the, at the beginning, I started in 2017.
There was a, hopefully, a selection to be taken to Oslo in 2017.
(28:17):
The tryouts were so intense because you only get to do the homeless cup once as a player.
So it was very, this is my moment.
If I don't do it now, never do it again.
It's like, you can keep trying out every year. but once
you've you've had your chance that you've
got to take it all in as much as you can you unless you just take the whole
(28:40):
experience and you're doing the trials and thinking oh my god these people have
got maybe a better chance than me panicking about things but yet they're all
in the same circumstances you are it's like they all want to fight and it gives you that like,
that like oomph in in it all because you want to focus you want to succeed in
(29:00):
this it gives you that like motivation to want to do more instead of just being
in your slump that you were in,
so you go for all the tryouts you waited a few weeks to
see who gets to select and the next minute I have a phone call
and I'm like thinking oh god this is when
he tells me no you haven't got through and he's like you're going
(29:21):
to Oslo and I was like oh my god it just
went into like shock and I was like oh my god it's amazing and then
you have to go to training every week and it
just got you into a back into like a normal structure just being back in training
it gets you back into a pattern got mental health better eating habits just
being there and the the team you get to know so much about them get to know
(29:45):
their history what they've been through and it was just amazing learning about
what others have been through and how.
Comfortable people felt being in that small group just being within a team you
think you would never must be spoke to these people outside of football then
within that team you are so connected from learning everything about everyone
everyone just clicks instantly once we got over to Oslo,
(30:11):
It was such a wild experience, the parade in itself.
You lose your voice. It's gone. You sing, you chant, you hear the other people
singing their chants. You're like, oh my God, that sounds amazing.
And you just get this adrenaline rush.
It's the most amazing experience I've ever done. That first day just blows your mind.
You're praying for the town, you're waving your country's flag,
(30:34):
being like, yeah, this is us, we're going to win it this year.
And obviously everyone else is saying the exact same thing. They're all doing
their own little chants.
And just having people on the streets wave and
clap you seeing you as who you are
and you're just like yeah that's yeah i'm here i'm
here to fight for this cup this is why i'm here and it
gives you that back of that pride you become
(30:55):
like a not a person again but you
become yourself again just walking within
that you got your pride back and then when
you get step onto that pitch for your first national anthem people
are crying singing their anthem it's like they the emotions go insane
and everyone's doing their speeches beforehand and you're
just sobbing thinking oh my god i'm i'm here
(31:18):
i've made it and then when like you
said about playing on the cups and maybe the red cards or blue cards come out
you don't see it happen it's very rare you get the blue cards in because the
reds don't don't come in that often because people want to stay on the pitch
because you want to play every minute you can you want to get all the game time.
(31:40):
Because you know if you get that red card you're done for the whole tournament,
you could be done for that whole day of playing you're like I'm not wasting
my time being sat on the pitch side I'm here to play for my country and it,
it gives that different aspect of the game so you're not crawling you're not
fighting with other players,
(32:00):
there's more passion in the game so you are more excited to play than just.
As like not a professional footballer to get paid a lot for it so it's a bit
more riffraff with it also when it comes to you playing for your country.
Improve yourself you want to be on that pitch and then when it came to the end
(32:21):
of the tournaments we got down to i think it was the last cup i think we got
down to i think it was the shield shield cup i think it was standing on that
stage receiving that cup.
Jumping around the stages we were all going berserk
thinking yeah we've done it we've got our photos we had
Michael Sheen there supporting us at the time and
(32:44):
he was also jumping on the stage being really
excited we were like oh my god it's a celebrity on stage with
us getting really really excited and you
think afterwards it's like when you
go home you have the parties these afterwards who have the reunions you
think then that's it i've had my moment
i'm done nothing else is going to happen
(33:05):
now but it doesn't just stop there you can
become a volunteer you can become a referee you
can come even help out coaching there's not
a stop to after you've done football you've got that extra steps
you can take there's no end to it and that's
what i find amazing and that's when i got my uh my continuing then
(33:26):
to the story was me being offered a training course
for the referees and i was like i don't want to be a referee i don't like them
i've always disliked referees and playing the game it's not it's not for me
and they were like go on give her a try and i was like fine i'll give her a
go no i dislike him so much went to the training i think.
(33:49):
He was in Cardiff and I enjoyed it more than I thought I would.
I think it was like you said, you see the aspect of the game from a different side.
And it was more challenging than what you expected it to be.
Because I think I'd done my first, I think my first refereeing in the Cardiff
Homeless World Cup in 2019.
(34:10):
And the first time I stood in that pitch as a ref, I was like,
got my whistle shaking, couldn't blow the whistle thinking, oh God,
I can't make any mistakes.
This is live on YouTube. Can't make a mistake.
And it just flew by, like a blink of an eye. And it was finished.
I was like, oh my God, I did it. That's amazing.
But the funniest part was before it all started in Cardiff, my face was put
(34:34):
on all the posters throughout Cardiff.
And I was like, oh no, that's me and all my family and friends were posting it.
It was crazy. And I was just like, oh my God, it's like I'm kind of mini famous now.
In my hometown I was like oh okay and I was like oh this is you and I'm like yeah I know,
(34:54):
it gives you that excitement but when it came to the referee side it was more,
challenging in a different way where you obviously weren't out to win a cup
you were there to control the game but also make it fun.
But becoming into a new family with the referees was amazing because it's,
(35:16):
like you said, it's a whole different game.
And you would think because some of these people who are referees,
not all of them have come as a former player.
And you think, oh, they're not going to accept me. I'm just a former player
just coming into this, hoping for the best.
But it's not like that. They're so accepting.
They just brought me in, taught me everything. thing
(35:37):
and it's like a second family now you're talking all
the time on whatsapp it's really really
good but when it
came to the games i would say like you
said about the cards you're trying not to give them and obviously
with the different language barriers you're trying to control the game mostly
(35:57):
with like body language and you find it does get across quite easily just by
like like certain looks and everyone knows like all the hand signals for certain kicks, penalties.
It's sort of like, like I said, it translates to any language.
It's so easily done. I think that's amazing. I think that's the quite amazing
(36:21):
part of it is in this international diversity.
You're able to just still play this game and get it,
get your message across as a referee to everyone despite
what nation or what country they're coming from i just
think it's so amazing that and then you coming from the player to the referee
(36:42):
seeing that getting a different set of tools getting a different set of responsibilities
and it helping you in a different way and i could that makes me think of just
all the other roles people have from,
coordinators to people that help on the pitch to people like just all the different
roles that are offer to people and the ways that it could help people and people
(37:03):
can switch roles and do this this time, that next time. Mel.
I want to go over to you a little bit. 70 countries.
I mean, from a conversation with a friend in a bar to 70 countries,
that has to be challenging.
How do you get these countries involved? Do you send invites out?
(37:25):
Are there people working in these
countries that are aware of the homeless population and send them to you?
What is the way in which you're able to organize 70 plus countries to be a part of these tournaments?
Yeah. Well, I mean, the first thing to say is way beyond our wildest dreams.
And when we were coming up with this idea, we have pretty wild dreams.
So this is way beyond even that.
(37:46):
So, you know, being involved in 70 countries or 70 countries part of our network is pretty amazing.
And the world, although it's a small place, is actually a very big place.
So in terms of organizing the event, it's challenging.
But the way we're structured is that we have one partner per country.
So in Wales, for example, you know, the streets soccer
(38:06):
wales and and that that partner organizes the
the day-to-day work that's working with homeless people
when they first come to the the programs and then
you know selecting the teams and get the teams to come to our event so we have
70 of those so it's not like we are from about we are very small teams that
in some sense is very deliberately centrally it's it's really part of a network
(38:29):
that's operating globally and then we're responsible then for the the annual event,
which which is is challenging in getting.
Former homeless people or homeless people across borders is not easy it's the
biggest challenge sometimes it doesn't work because they're becoming more stricter
(38:50):
in terms of some of the travel,
and and so that's that's a really big challenge now but we we always
get there necessarily always get every team
there and then that's a seriously big challenge
but I I it's interesting when
you speak with governments where cities are hosting it
they actually get what we're about and they actually want
(39:12):
to be really really helpful unfortunately you come
across administration and bureaucracy and basically
stupidness really that that sometimes stops
this but generally in principle countries get it because they
understand actually this is really positive and impactful
and constructive so they want to be connected with it so we
have we have those challenges is and so everything is every year is a mountain
(39:37):
yeah the way i would describe it we've got to get up the up the mountain and
then it's really hard work it's really difficult we've got a fantastic team
of people a lot of volunteers around the world doing stuff all working to the same aim,
and it wouldn't work without them to be quite honest and it wouldn't work out
with the players as well who are really you know doing a lot in terms of their
(39:57):
training and their dedication education.
Then we get to the top of the mountain, the summit, which is always beautiful.
I will say to people, come and watch an event. You will be inspired. I promise you, you will.
It's the way the world should be. But then, of course, we go back down to the
other side of the mountain, we've got to go up another mountain.
So that's the way we are, and we're geared up for that.
(40:18):
More recently, COVID was horrible for us. I mean, obviously,
it was horrible for everybody, but for our organization, it was bad because
we had to cancel the events three years running, because obviously we couldn't
get players moving, et cetera.
And it was difficult, the organization, because then we kind of lost sponsors
and so on and so forth, as you might imagine.
So it's difficult, but we're back on the road again now, and cities are keen to host in the future.
(40:45):
We hope to get more countries involved.
We've got some different projects going.
And all the time we're looking at practical ways forward.
So the referees is one example, because it started off with one referee who wanted to volunteer.
He was a professional referee to come to events, and then other referees joined
in. And then we started the program to train up former players as referees, which here has come.
(41:10):
So it's a solution in itself because it's interesting.
There's not enough referees in the world. And so we've gone,
hey, we can train up referees in this. There's jobs for people potentially in different countries.
And as you were saying, I think correctly, the power of the football is the one language.
You see, the referees can have a sign or do whatever and everybody understands it.
(41:32):
And it's a very simple game. you kick the ball and then
you try and get in the goal okay if you get more than
the other side then you win the game that's all it's really simple but having
the referees has been something that's worked but then you know a lot of our
partners in the 70 countries now are run by former players actually and they
(41:52):
get huge respect from people of illness and their coaching certificates etc etc,
so what we're trying to do is you know everything builds on itself it feeds
off itself And we tell the stories and former players like, like Sarah,
tell a story that inspire others that, that bring other people to the table.
So we, we try and create a momentum and a, and a movement, which is about change
(42:14):
and positive change through football.
Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you for sharing all of that.
You've, this is like you said, it's beyond your wildest dreams.
It's not, it wasn't even my dream and it's beyond my wildest dreams.
Because this is just such an amazing, I'm looking at the webpage right now.
(42:36):
It's just such an amazing organization you have here, Mel, and the volunteers
and everyone that works with you.
What advice or what words of insight could you give to someone similarly who
has an idea or has something that they're concerned about, whether it's the environment,
(42:57):
whether it's issues of rights for women, and issues of rights for the homeless,
issue of rights for animals,
anything that people feel truly passionate about to turn into a movement in this way.
What words of insight and what words of inspiration would you have for them? And also to you, Sarah.
(43:18):
You went through the hardship that many people go through, but many people don't go through.
And you were able to use the Homeless World Cup and the tools of the Homeless
World Cup to lift yourself out of this.
So what advice would you have to anyone who is enduring hardship in this moment?
(43:39):
Maybe, Mel, you could start first.
Sure. I mean, I think my message is actually quite simple to people.
We all need to do something. so therefore do something and
but but you know we don't have to make it kind of hugely grand
so don't get put off tiny things tiny
steps that you can do that are constructive be
(43:59):
they about volunteering or setting up a social enterprise and
some of us are more enterprising than than others is
just part of a DNA then do it and
don't be frightened to do it because it's important what you
do and even if this is a tiny thing it can
make a big difference so just go ahead and do it don't be inhibited
go for it do it and there are other people around there's
(44:21):
networks now of social entrepreneurs that will provide you with
advice mentoring support out there
you know we have a you know again i use this word a lot
kind of family around the world to kind of you know people have
the same dna but the one thing i would advise guys don't don't
don't say hey i'm gonna have to change the world
so you know i'm gonna take on all these huge
(44:42):
responsibilities you don't have to do that at the beginning it's just
small things so if you think about our journey
we started off with just a ball and it was going to be like like two
teams and we never knew about we were going
to be the signs and we never knew that referees
were going to be such an important part and the potential it just grows organically
and your your passion for whatever it is you're doing starting small will connect
(45:06):
with other people for sure and and and therefore it starts growing and and concentrate
not on the growth, but on the impact.
So I, my advice to anybody is just, just, just do small things, but do something.
Don't the world is, is I think getting itself into a very, very difficult place.
And a lot of people are just excluded and the climate issue.
(45:30):
So we, we need to do something.
And so we need creative ideas.
We need people who can make things happen.
And if we all connect together, then, then that's how you create,
create the change. So that would be my pearl of wisdom, if you like.
Love it, love it. Step by step, block by block, build. Yes, exactly.
(45:52):
I would say mine would be any idea or dreams are not limited.
It's just taking the time and the patience to get to where you need to get.
Don't rush it. Not everything happens in a day. It can take time.
And it's needing them resources.
Go out there and get what you need to get where you want to get to because it
(46:15):
can happen, there's no no's,
nothing is unreachable it's like in my circumstances I thought I would never
get a job where I am now event coordinator now all of my CV I writ,
was like scenarios were all related to street football or homeless work up from
refereeing, how do you handle a bad situation, referee solution this solution,
(46:38):
Any little experience can help you get to where you need to get to.
It all just takes a little bit of time and patience.
But as long as you've got the resources there, you get the help that you need.
It's there. You just need to grab it when you can.
That's the best one I can give. There you go. Yeah, I felt that one myself.
(46:59):
That was like advice to me right there. Thank you.
Thank you both of you for being on this podcast.
All Power to the Developing, which I just said, we named this podcast All Power
to the Developing because we really wanted to give light to all the people around
the world who give power to people who are developing.
(47:21):
When you hear that phrase, All Power to the Developing, what is something that comes to your mind?
More power to the people, I would say. Give yourself your own power,
not not having to go by
everyone else's choices be unique yeah i
(47:41):
mean i think i would share seriously i think it's it's about
us individually and collectively taking taking action
which is positive not you know i i'm there's a lot to moan about okay there's
a lot wrong so we could go on about it but we go on and on about it okay but
let's do some things then that are positive so So all power means collective
(48:04):
action, working together.
Identifying that we have similar values, which are about simple things like
fairness, community, neighborhood, et cetera, just being human beings to one another.
Simple things that we want and we can join together and that then creates the
(48:24):
power for people who are developing things.
Definitely, definitely. Well, you heard it there. This was a great episode of
All Power to the Developing.
If people would like to learn more about the homeless world
cup mel where could people go to learn more about the homeless
world cup and probably learn more about you yeah i
think simply go to our website which is homelessworldcup.org so
(48:46):
all one word.org and i mean in there
you can find out all about us our event this year
in 2024 is going to be in seoul in south korea there's a
netflix movie coming out towards the end of march all
sorts of things going on and i would just say to
people if you want you can join in we're always looking for volunteers
our street soccer partners in 70 odd countries
(49:08):
are looking for volunteers sponsors supporters you know
again just back to the the the title of this
talk it's about joining and let's kind of work together and you know power to
the developing and change the world accordingly but our uber aim if you like
is it's not it's not to exist because there shouldn't be any homelessness in
the world okay so let let And people sometimes say, look, Mel,
(49:31):
you've just been really naive.
But maybe, maybe.
I just don't think we should have a world where there's any homelessness.
And so, but by people joining in, and as I want to repeat, by doing small things
together, we can actually change things.
And if we want to, we put people on the moon, you know, we created the internet, blah, blah, blah.
(49:54):
All these things which are amazing, as human beings, we can end homelessness if we want to.
Yes, yes. And that's a very powerful last sentiment from Mel right there.
We have a lot of work to do to end this massive global problem of homelessness,
and it starts with you, one person at a time.
Thank you for listening to All Power to the Developing. I'm your host, Desiree Wandon.
(50:17):
All Power to the Developing is available on most and all digital streaming platforms.
Also, you can write to us at podcast at eastsideinstitute.org to let us know
which episode you like and what you liked about the episode.
We would love to read your response at the end of the episode, so please write to us.
Please like, comment, and subscribe and let us know what you love about the podcast.
(50:39):
And we have a lot more in store for you in the year of 2024.
Thank you again, Mel. And thank you again, Sarah. And once again.
Music.
This has been All Power to the Developing. Thank you.
(51:00):
All Power to the Developing was
made possible in part by Growing Social Therapeutics, the Bailiwick Fund.
Welcome to All Power to the Developing, a podcast of the Eastside Institute,
where social justice, human development, and community building come together.
This is where you will meet activists, artists, teachers, scholars,
helpers, and healers while bringing creativity, hope, and possibility to individuals
and communities all over the world.
(00:27):
Music.
Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome everyone to this episode of All Power to the Developing.
(00:49):
This is your host Desiree Wandon, Des for short.
And firstly, I would like to wish everyone a happy new year.
Thank you for all your support in 2023. for the podcast of All Power to Developing.
We loved it, and we have a lot more we have in store for you in the year of
2024. Thank you for your continued support.
Today is a very special day. I have some great guests.
(01:12):
Today, we're going to be diving into a global movement that combines the universal
language of football with social change.
Founded in 2003, this extraordinary initiative has been using the power of sport
to transform the lives of people experiencing homelessness.
Homelessness i have with me co-founder of the
homeless world cup mel young and a
(01:32):
former player now a referee that's awesome sarah
frovane how are you guys doing today great good
good to see you yes doing good thank you thank you thank you for being here
with us mel and sarah i mean you first came to my attention as a producer for
performing the world which you were a part of performing the well as our flagship festival,
(01:57):
our flagship event that we hold.
And I was just so remarked by this organization using the game of soccer to
just combat this major issue we're having of homelessness.
So I always had it in my mind, man, I really want to interview these people
because this seems very extraordinary.
And now we're here today. So let's get with it.
(02:17):
Can you kind of share the story of the inception behind the homeless world cup
and and what initially got you inspired um mel.
Well, I've been working with homeless people since 1993 with the Big Issue magazine
in Scotland, which is a magazine sold by homeless people with them keeping the
majority of the cover price,
(02:39):
and then involved in the development of street papers in different countries in the world.
And an organization had been formed, which was really a trade association for
street papers for homeless people around the world called the International
Network of Street Papers. hours.
And the street papers, some of us managed to meet once a year to exchange ideas and share experiences.
(03:04):
And at this conference we were having in 2001, myself and a colleague called
Harold Schmidt, he ran a paper in Austria in a city called Graz.
We were talking after the conference about how good it had been and inspiring
and we'd learned so much, but but there was no homeless people there,
only editors or founders and so on.
(03:25):
And how could we involve homeless people in the same way we were being inspired?
So we talked about all sorts of different ideas over a beer.
And we really couldn't come up with any suggestions.
And there were all sorts of problems, including the problem of language.
And we said, aha, there is an international language, which is called football,
which I think in the US you guys call soccer.
(03:47):
And we were both passionate football fans
harold in fact had played a bit of semi-professional football
and we knew its power and and in
both of our organizations so some of the homeless sellers had formed little
little soccer teams or football teams that were playing and we we knew it was
a very very powerful tool so we said hey look why don't we have a game between
(04:11):
i'm from scotland And then he was from Austria and we were mucking around and
shook hands. There was going to be a game.
And I said, oh, Scotland's going to win. And he said, Austria's going to win.
And then we said, look, why don't we just invite lots of other countries to
come and we'll call it the homeless.
So we were having great fun, you know, in a creative sense.
In the next day we met in the hotel at breakfast and we said hey look this is a great conversation.
(04:35):
And but sometimes these type of conversations they just kind of
stay in the bar or stay in the room and nothing ever happens will we
make it happen and so we said hey yeah let's do that you know we think the the
idea is so good let's make it happen and so in we had the first event in 2003
which kind of took a lot of organizing and it was it was really an outstanding
(04:56):
success And by that success,
we mean that our aim is to get homeless people's lives changed and away from being homeless.
And you know, the results we had in that very high percentage of people getting
off the streets as a result, and a lot of people coming to watch.
So it was a big success in that regard, as far as people concerned.
(05:17):
And so therefore we just kept doing more.
Now obviously behind all that, there's a huge, huge, long, long story.
But in a nutshell, that's what's happened. And then of course,
since then we've kept building it and now we estimate over 1.2 million people
in the 70 odd countries where we have partners working on the ground,
(05:38):
have changed their lives as a result of just being involved in the soccer event.
And so it's very impactful. And because of that, we just keep on doing what
we're doing. Yeah, yeah.
I want to rewind a bit, Mel, because before you even got into the Homeless World
Cup, you said that you were working with a publication that was dealing with the homeless.
(06:00):
What is it about yourself that has this initiative to deal with the homeless?
What is it in your personal history, your personal life that you developed this
need or want to want to work with this population?
I mean, I'm not being homeless myself, luckily.
But but I've always been very passionate about what
(06:21):
I would call social justice and you know
I I don't think anybody in the world should be homeless I
just think how on earth have we created the system so
my background is working as a journalist and I I saw it's a magazine which started
in London when I was visiting there doing a story or something and I thought
you know what What I can do is use some of my journalist skills to create a
(06:46):
magazine similar in Scotland.
And that would be a contribution.
And I firmly believe that if everybody makes small contributions,
then that's how you create change. It doesn't have to be big things,
but kind of small things.
So myself and a friend, we started the magazine and it took off.
(07:08):
It was successful and so we we we kept doing
it and then learned a great deal and grew a great deal
so it it came from my kind of burning passion
about there shouldn't be inequalities and exclusion
in the world and then using a skill to develop it
and then of course the whole thing's growing over that so so that's where
it's where it's come from and you know
(07:30):
in in that journey i've learned a great deal i mean
i'm a great believer in you can learn from anybody so
you learn from a professor of course somebody's very clever you
sit and listen to them but also you can learn from homeless people
as well and we have insights and stories
to tell that are important that people listen to and within
(07:50):
within their voices you can find solutions and one
of those that big learnings for me was about you know having to
try to create family through what you're doing and
that's what we did with the magazine and what we continue to
do with the football and that's one
of the one of many key uh facets about what
we're about so that's that's really where i'm coming.
(08:11):
From and i'm still as passionate about this issue now as
i was then probably even more determined because you know i look at the system
in the world that's creating homelessness and the more crazy this is we don't
have to have it it's a system failure basically and we we can fix it if we want to,
(08:32):
yeah we're going to get deeper into that because that's actually something i
want to i want to get into because it seems like no matter how many buildings
are built no matter how many you know new complexes new condos new apartments
affordable housing estates as they say in the uk,
that it still seems that people can't find a place to live and it gets and it
seems it's getting Getting more terrible.
(08:53):
I want to shift over to you, Sarah, a little bit.
Unfortunately, you dealt with homelessness.
Could you share with us a little the circumstance you dealt with and and maybe
how that led you into initially discovering the Homeless World Cup?
Mine was, luckily enough, only a temporary form of homelessness.
(09:17):
My form of homelessness was just surface offing because we were trying to buy
a property and it kind of flopped to where the homeowner wouldn't move out of their house.
So then we've already left our old property.
So then I've left then with my one-year-old daughter, me and my partner with no housing.
(09:38):
We had nowhere to go at the time. So we ended up...
Everything that we owned into my mother-in-law's house and we
were literally just there on the sofa for months waiting
for properties so the mental health kicked in stress I
had no job at the time it just built up
from there and there and then it got to the point where my
(10:00):
mental health decreeds so badly I got
taken into a hospital near me
for mental health issues that they then then
also helped me find resources up in
a little little place up near the house
i was going to move into where they sort of had
resources and lucky enough one of the workers who
(10:21):
were helping out there knew of the football team street football wales and they
provided us with information and they were like oh do you know you could play
for a foresight and help your mental health because Because I'm not very one
for the group activities you kind of do.
It wasn't for me. It wasn't helping my side of mental health.
(10:42):
It was the more physical, doing things, getting outside helped me a bit.
Then they found that resource so much easier. So I signed straight up to Street Football Wales.
And they were like, oh, so you've had homelessness recently? And I was like, yeah.
And they're like, oh, have you ever thought about trying out for our homeless workup?
(11:02):
And I was like at that point I was like I've never never heard of it it's not.
Wasn't heard of because I've never been in that situation to know enough of
the organisation they were like how about you come and try out and then within
three months tried out and then I found out I was going to Oslo in 2017.
And it was like I went from like rock bottom to like a superstar within like
(11:25):
three months it's like your face was everywhere there was advertisement going
on you were doing like charity organisations organisations to try and raise funds to go away.
It just makes so much of a difference where,
where they need to sort of understanding where some people work differently,
where the football or soccer helps people come out of the shell much better
(11:46):
than it would be productive more than other people going into meetings or therapy.
I find in my case that is a form of therapy doing football.
And it just helped so much.
But it's the understanding I find as well for the homeless side of it is people
understanding the different forms of homelessness.
(12:08):
It's like I was I was very, very lucky in my circumstance not to be put on the streets.
I was lucky I had the family, the resources, but not everyone seems to have that.
And hearing everyone's stories then within Street Football Wales was amazing.
Amazing like they've come from nothing they had nothing to where when they came to training,
(12:29):
they would get like little booster points if they come to training every week
they could get free togs free gloves and if they could it was a nice boost for
them so i would say in the long run,
homeless world cup has meant everything for me it's like in the out long i've
got a job again i've got finally obviously got my home now and i'm just more
(12:49):
productive in the mental health side It's been amazing.
Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that. No problem.
You said something. You said it raises awareness for the different types of homeless.
Here in New York City, we're having a bit of a homeless problem amongst many
states in the United States.
And I think people have this idea that a homeless person is a person with their
(13:13):
clothes shredded and on the floor with a cup.
Up and this is the definitive image of
of what a homeless person is but you just
spoke of of yourself going through a situation that
led you to homelessness there's of course people with transitional housing
there's of course military vets this
is everything in between could you give us a little bit more a little
(13:35):
bit more there and the different forms and also mel you
could you could um add on to this just the different how
the different faces of homelessness how it looks you
know how how it is for different people yeah it's
again obviously my circumstances classes what we call the sofa
surfing where you haven't got your to you
set home your comfort area it's you're
(13:57):
having to provide an others who support you
you haven't got your own place to support yourself
and then i've got others where you like have obviously on the streets that could
be due of eviction lack of money lost a job mental health and you got other
people then who have physically having to run away to go on the streets they
(14:18):
prefer to be on the streets than be at home,
it's understanding like they're not on the streets because they want to be on the streets.
They're not going to hostels they're not going to
hotels for the the joy of it there's like it's understanding that they're there
because they're obviously trying to get away from something then it's like what
you said about the veterans some of them feel more comfortable being out and
(14:41):
about than they do being stuck at certain properties because they don't want to be,
shut down locked down they don't want to be restricted because it doesn't feel
like it's theirs and i find that's very hard for people to understand that.
You can be given something you can be given a bed but if it's not theirs they
(15:02):
don't feel comfortable yeah taking it yeah because it's not there they don't
feel like they've earned it maybe,
it's very hard for people to understand that side of
things it's not all about them being
on substance use it's not about them
having like alcoholism it's it could just be the general being
scared to be elsewhere that and like
(15:23):
like i said before about the the groups they
form their own families on the streets they want to stick in with that group
because they know what they got from them and they don't want to change that
because they know what support group they have around them and i find that some
people if they try and move out from that circumstance maybe class has been rejected,
(15:45):
you're thrown out of the way why are you a traitor it's like no.
It's very hard I think for some people who have been on the street for years,
to move back into society as well as class as society at least,
they're so used to that is their life, some people are so used to it they don't
want some people don't want to go into accommodation that is their life, that is their home,
(16:11):
being there so in that way i can't
think at the moment of different housing circumstances but
the main one is definitely knows what i speak spoken of yeah wow wow um mel
anything to add to that or yeah yeah i think it's it's very interesting what
zero is saying i mean i sometimes describe there's a difference between houselessness and homelessness.
(16:36):
And you mentioned earlier about the issues around you know this building going
on of houses at the beginning of this interview and and it's true the one cause
of homelessness is the lack of,
physical property but actually the the issues about homeless if you if you ask
a child to talk about what's home they they'll talk about kind of you know the
(16:59):
family running around mother smell of of soup in the kitchen, of fire,
mucking around with your annoying brothers and sisters or whatever.
And they won't talk about the door or the windows.
And so much of what we talk about then when we think about homelessness,
we start talking about houselessness.
(17:20):
Now, although that's in the mix there in terms of solutions,
what Sarah's describing there is that you can have four walls,
but actually they're very, very unpleasant because of whatever's happening there.
And what you need is actually environments where people feel safe in terms of where they live.
Now, in part, what we are doing with the Soccer is creating safe environments
(17:43):
where people feel they can come, be with other people and feel safe and then
help hopefully move into safe accommodation.
The second thing I probably want to say just out of this, because I've developed
a kind of global understanding.
Homelessness manifests itself in different ways in different parts of the world,
and that can be dependent on all sorts of factors, including the weather, for example.
(18:06):
And what political parties empower, the attitude of the police,
the attitude of the public, the attitude, et cetera, et cetera.
All of these things are different in different countries in different parts of the world.
And, you know, for the Homeless World Cup, we accept the definition per country.
So we can't get an international definition of this because it's too difficult.
(18:30):
So for example, in England, you know, you can be in a homeless hostel and according
to charity definition, government definition, you're homeless.
But in some African countries, they say if you have any shelter over your head, you're not homeless.
So you've got to be outside. side so we we accept any any different definition
(18:50):
going and as i say there's different there's different it manifests itself differently
but the one common factor i always find,
regardless of what that difference is if you look at
a person who's homeless and into their eyes it's the same thing universally
globally it's one of exclusion and not being part and that is the psychological
(19:11):
part of this that i think so important we do the football making people feel
feel part and changing that look in their eyes.
So that whilst there's all these differences in the world, there's a commonality,
absolutely standard, which is one of people just totally excluded from society.
(19:31):
Absolutely. Thank you both of you for breaking that down because I think it's
a major prevalent issue that has one face and or is viewed in a particular way.
And the more we learn about the different incarnations of it,
I think the more people are going to be enlightened and really start to tackle this global issue.
So thank you. i want to speak a little bit more
(19:52):
about now the sporting aspect
i mean sarah what you just spoke of
earlier i mean you you i even saw like this kind of really big smile on your
face and this twinkle in your eye when you just just described the environment
that you were part of being a part of the homeless world cup and then mel when
(20:12):
i when you know we watched the video during Performing the World,
that video was just amazing and everyone was having a good time and the pitches
just looked really great.
One thing about sports, sports, while entertaining, while challenging us physically,
could also bring the ugly side out in humanity, right?
(20:33):
We know about racism in football.
There's a winner, there's a loser, there's a lot of capitalism involved in it
And while at times it could feel inclusive to everyone, it could be exclusive too.
So how did you build this very inclusive environment?
And what were some of the, was it your, did you have particular ideas?
(20:56):
Were there particular things that you felt with your partners that needed to
be a part of this in order for it to be more of a positive thing?
Like speak a little bit about that, Mel. How, how do you balance and how does
the home homeless world cup balance the intensity of sports with the humanistic
(21:16):
aspect of what you're doing?
Yeah. So, so that's a good question. And one, we spent a lot of time thinking
about before we started this and, and, and have developed it as we go on,
but fundamentally, first of all, it's, it's inclusive,
so it's an inclusive game and we created the game so that any,
anybody can play any standard.
It so it doesn't matter you can be terrible at it and
(21:39):
but but be part of the team or you can
be very very good at and we have across our different teams people have different
standards so we could create an event where very quickly the the the good teams
are in a week in the week-long event they're playing against each other and
they're not so good teams are playing against each other and so everybody's
finding their own level if you like and are able to participate.
(22:02):
We we wanted to have the competitive element in there
because that's kind of normal otherwise you just kind of get be very patronizing
it's like oh you're homeless so you can't play in a competitive game whereas
sports are competitive so it's competitive the teams want to win that's that's
that's quite normal and you know we create a way in which by the end of the week the the the two,
(22:25):
best teams are playing against each other for a position and and the the the
two not so good a good team so playing against the position of each other so
you end up with a position between one and 48 but everybody gets the same medal
if you like so it's competitive but it's inclusive,
so that that's that's very very important to our staff that structure of the event.
(22:47):
Then secondly we we create an atmosphere which
is one of fair play so that the managers and
so on are instructing everybody to play in in any way which
is fair and what's very interesting for us us
is the players are competitive when they want
to win the game and they don't like to lose of course but
a minute or so or less after they've lost they
(23:08):
they are hugging the other players that have
won and there's something about where the players have come from the fact they've
all come from homelessness that that actually brings them together as as one
one group one family if you like they maybe can't speak the same language they
definitely can't speak the same language language, but they kind of understand
each other automatically.
(23:29):
So an atmosphere is created whereby we're going to win, but we're going to win in a proper way.
And then crucially for us, and this is where maybe Sarah could talk about,
you know, we have referees and it's a contact sport, so you need referees.
And these referees are very important for us and they volunteer from all over
(23:51):
the world and come every year, but referee it in a way which isn't harsh.
They are supportive of the players. They understand what's going on.
And so you need order in anything and you've got the order, but you've got it
done in a way which is inclusive.
So that we invent something which has values in it and which is played in a
(24:12):
particular way and which creates everyone to sing and dance together in the end.
And that's what sports should be all about, in my view. It's very, very powerful.
It's a really powerful tool to create change.
And we create a way in which everybody's contributing. meeting so i'm
always saying i you might think referees are
(24:33):
not relevant but referees are really important to us because they
are actually in encompassing the attitude and values of of our sport and and
then we have success and i i tell you i'm always saying to the professional
side you should come and watch this because this is how how sport should be
played we hadn't get any Any ever red card, any red cards.
(24:55):
And the red cards will be given if the players do something.
But we hardly ever get any because it's not played in that way.
Wow. I mean, I feel like putting on a pair of boots right now,
lacing them up and getting on the pitch. But we're going to take a short commercial break.
And when we're back, we're going to learn some more about the Homeless World Cup.
We're going to get on that pitch with Sarah, find out how it is being a former
(25:17):
player and now a referee.
Music.
And we're going to learn a little bit more about the Homeless World Cup.
This is All Power to the Developing, and we'll be right back after this short commercial break.
Hi, I'm Melissa Meyer, Associate Director of the Eastside Institute.
(25:39):
Welcome to All Power to the Developing. I hope you're enjoying today's conversation.
In each episode, we introduce you to some amazing performance activists,
play revolutionaries, and developmentalists from around the world who talk to
us about their creative grassroots efforts to build a better world.
If you like what you hear, please follow and share the series.
(26:01):
You can find us on Amazon, Spotify, and Podbean.
We'd love to hear your comments and ideas. is. Like everything at the Institute,
the growth of all power to the developing depends upon the people who create it and benefit from it.
We hope you're one of them. Thanks for your support. And now back to our conversation.
Music.
(26:31):
To the developing we are back we are back with mel young and sarah frovane the homeless world cup.
Mel he was just kind of breaking down the the spirit
of the game and how he's able to balance the intensity
of sports and the intensity that comes with
all of it with the humanistic approach to what
they're doing for the homeless world cup sarah has
(26:53):
a former player i was a former player
or two how long how long was your career uh one
year i was playing for
years before that but more 11 aside so about from
the age of maybe 10 till about
20 and then stop stop had
(27:13):
my daughter and stopped in street football then yeah how was it for you as a
player first of all to for uh you You spoke a little bit earlier about you being
involved in and you being involved in and how just being a part of this whole
process was able to kind of lift you out of where you were.
Can you speak a little bit deeper about that and maybe what you saw from other
(27:35):
players, other people that you met?
And then what led you into transitioning? I mean, obviously the body breaks
down, but what led you into going into a referee and speak about that?
You know, you're now on the pitch with the players.
You have a different vantage point. you're able to see the game in a different way.
You have the responsibility and the upkeep of making sure the game is played
(27:56):
fairly and the rules are being engaged in the proper way. So speak a little
bit about that experience.
It's more than just being on the field. It's a pretty major role.
Yeah, it was the, at the beginning, I started in 2017.
There was a, hopefully, a selection to be taken to Oslo in 2017.
(28:17):
The tryouts were so intense because you only get to do the homeless cup once as a player.
So it was very, this is my moment.
If I don't do it now, never do it again.
It's like, you can keep trying out every year. but once
you've you've had your chance that you've
got to take it all in as much as you can you unless you just take the whole
(28:40):
experience and you're doing the trials and thinking oh my god these people have
got maybe a better chance than me panicking about things but yet they're all
in the same circumstances you are it's like they all want to fight and it gives you that like,
that like oomph in in it all because you want to focus you want to succeed in
(29:00):
this it gives you that like motivation to want to do more instead of just being
in your slump that you were in,
so you go for all the tryouts you waited a few weeks to
see who gets to select and the next minute I have a phone call
and I'm like thinking oh god this is when
he tells me no you haven't got through and he's like you're going
(29:21):
to Oslo and I was like oh my god it just
went into like shock and I was like oh my god it's amazing and then
you have to go to training every week and it
just got you into a back into like a normal structure just being back in training
it gets you back into a pattern got mental health better eating habits just
being there and the the team you get to know so much about them get to know
(29:45):
their history what they've been through and it was just amazing learning about
what others have been through and how.
Comfortable people felt being in that small group just being within a team you
think you would never must be spoke to these people outside of football then
within that team you are so connected from learning everything about everyone
everyone just clicks instantly once we got over to Oslo,
(30:11):
It was such a wild experience, the parade in itself.
You lose your voice. It's gone. You sing, you chant, you hear the other people
singing their chants. You're like, oh my God, that sounds amazing.
And you just get this adrenaline rush.
It's the most amazing experience I've ever done. That first day just blows your mind.
You're praying for the town, you're waving your country's flag,
(30:34):
being like, yeah, this is us, we're going to win it this year.
And obviously everyone else is saying the exact same thing. They're all doing
their own little chants.
And just having people on the streets wave and
clap you seeing you as who you are
and you're just like yeah that's yeah i'm here i'm
here to fight for this cup this is why i'm here and it
gives you that back of that pride you become
(30:55):
like a not a person again but you
become yourself again just walking within
that you got your pride back and then when
you get step onto that pitch for your first national anthem people
are crying singing their anthem it's like they the emotions go insane
and everyone's doing their speeches beforehand and you're
just sobbing thinking oh my god i'm i'm here
(31:18):
i've made it and then when like you
said about playing on the cups and maybe the red cards or blue cards come out
you don't see it happen it's very rare you get the blue cards in because the
reds don't don't come in that often because people want to stay on the pitch
because you want to play every minute you can you want to get all the game time.
(31:40):
Because you know if you get that red card you're done for the whole tournament,
you could be done for that whole day of playing you're like I'm not wasting
my time being sat on the pitch side I'm here to play for my country and it,
it gives that different aspect of the game so you're not crawling you're not
fighting with other players,
(32:00):
there's more passion in the game so you are more excited to play than just.
As like not a professional footballer to get paid a lot for it so it's a bit
more riffraff with it also when it comes to you playing for your country.
Improve yourself you want to be on that pitch and then when it came to the end
(32:21):
of the tournaments we got down to i think it was the last cup i think we got
down to i think it was the shield shield cup i think it was standing on that
stage receiving that cup.
Jumping around the stages we were all going berserk
thinking yeah we've done it we've got our photos we had
Michael Sheen there supporting us at the time and
(32:44):
he was also jumping on the stage being really
excited we were like oh my god it's a celebrity on stage with
us getting really really excited and you
think afterwards it's like when you
go home you have the parties these afterwards who have the reunions you
think then that's it i've had my moment
i'm done nothing else is going to happen
(33:05):
now but it doesn't just stop there you can
become a volunteer you can become a referee you
can come even help out coaching there's not
a stop to after you've done football you've got that extra steps
you can take there's no end to it and that's
what i find amazing and that's when i got my uh my continuing then
(33:26):
to the story was me being offered a training course
for the referees and i was like i don't want to be a referee i don't like them
i've always disliked referees and playing the game it's not it's not for me
and they were like go on give her a try and i was like fine i'll give her a
go no i dislike him so much went to the training i think.
(33:49):
He was in Cardiff and I enjoyed it more than I thought I would.
I think it was like you said, you see the aspect of the game from a different side.
And it was more challenging than what you expected it to be.
Because I think I'd done my first, I think my first refereeing in the Cardiff
Homeless World Cup in 2019.
(34:10):
And the first time I stood in that pitch as a ref, I was like,
got my whistle shaking, couldn't blow the whistle thinking, oh God,
I can't make any mistakes.
This is live on YouTube. Can't make a mistake.
And it just flew by, like a blink of an eye. And it was finished.
I was like, oh my God, I did it. That's amazing.
But the funniest part was before it all started in Cardiff, my face was put
(34:34):
on all the posters throughout Cardiff.
And I was like, oh no, that's me and all my family and friends were posting it.
It was crazy. And I was just like, oh my God, it's like I'm kind of mini famous now.
In my hometown I was like oh okay and I was like oh this is you and I'm like yeah I know,
(34:54):
it gives you that excitement but when it came to the referee side it was more,
challenging in a different way where you obviously weren't out to win a cup
you were there to control the game but also make it fun.
But becoming into a new family with the referees was amazing because it's,
(35:16):
like you said, it's a whole different game.
And you would think because some of these people who are referees,
not all of them have come as a former player.
And you think, oh, they're not going to accept me. I'm just a former player
just coming into this, hoping for the best.
But it's not like that. They're so accepting.
They just brought me in, taught me everything. thing
(35:37):
and it's like a second family now you're talking all
the time on whatsapp it's really really
good but when it
came to the games i would say like you
said about the cards you're trying not to give them and obviously
with the different language barriers you're trying to control the game mostly
(35:57):
with like body language and you find it does get across quite easily just by
like like certain looks and everyone knows like all the hand signals for certain kicks, penalties.
It's sort of like, like I said, it translates to any language.
It's so easily done. I think that's amazing. I think that's the quite amazing
(36:21):
part of it is in this international diversity.
You're able to just still play this game and get it,
get your message across as a referee to everyone despite
what nation or what country they're coming from i just
think it's so amazing that and then you coming from the player to the referee
(36:42):
seeing that getting a different set of tools getting a different set of responsibilities
and it helping you in a different way and i could that makes me think of just
all the other roles people have from,
coordinators to people that help on the pitch to people like just all the different
roles that are offer to people and the ways that it could help people and people
(37:03):
can switch roles and do this this time, that next time. Mel.
I want to go over to you a little bit. 70 countries.
I mean, from a conversation with a friend in a bar to 70 countries,
that has to be challenging.
How do you get these countries involved? Do you send invites out?
(37:25):
Are there people working in these
countries that are aware of the homeless population and send them to you?
What is the way in which you're able to organize 70 plus countries to be a part of these tournaments?
Yeah. Well, I mean, the first thing to say is way beyond our wildest dreams.
And when we were coming up with this idea, we have pretty wild dreams.
So this is way beyond even that.
(37:46):
So, you know, being involved in 70 countries or 70 countries part of our network is pretty amazing.
And the world, although it's a small place, is actually a very big place.
So in terms of organizing the event, it's challenging.
But the way we're structured is that we have one partner per country.
So in Wales, for example, you know, the streets soccer
(38:06):
wales and and that that partner organizes the
the day-to-day work that's working with homeless people
when they first come to the the programs and then
you know selecting the teams and get the teams to come to our event so we have
70 of those so it's not like we are from about we are very small teams that
in some sense is very deliberately centrally it's it's really part of a network
(38:29):
that's operating globally and then we're responsible then for the the annual event,
which which is is challenging in getting.
Former homeless people or homeless people across borders is not easy it's the
biggest challenge sometimes it doesn't work because they're becoming more stricter
(38:50):
in terms of some of the travel,
and and so that's that's a really big challenge now but we we always
get there necessarily always get every team
there and then that's a seriously big challenge
but I I it's interesting when
you speak with governments where cities are hosting it
they actually get what we're about and they actually want
(39:12):
to be really really helpful unfortunately you come
across administration and bureaucracy and basically
stupidness really that that sometimes stops
this but generally in principle countries get it because they
understand actually this is really positive and impactful
and constructive so they want to be connected with it so we
have we have those challenges is and so everything is every year is a mountain
(39:37):
yeah the way i would describe it we've got to get up the up the mountain and
then it's really hard work it's really difficult we've got a fantastic team
of people a lot of volunteers around the world doing stuff all working to the same aim,
and it wouldn't work without them to be quite honest and it wouldn't work out
with the players as well who are really you know doing a lot in terms of their
(39:57):
training and their dedication education.
Then we get to the top of the mountain, the summit, which is always beautiful.
I will say to people, come and watch an event. You will be inspired. I promise you, you will.
It's the way the world should be. But then, of course, we go back down to the
other side of the mountain, we've got to go up another mountain.
So that's the way we are, and we're geared up for that.
(40:18):
More recently, COVID was horrible for us. I mean, obviously,
it was horrible for everybody, but for our organization, it was bad because
we had to cancel the events three years running, because obviously we couldn't
get players moving, et cetera.
And it was difficult, the organization, because then we kind of lost sponsors
and so on and so forth, as you might imagine.
So it's difficult, but we're back on the road again now, and cities are keen to host in the future.
(40:45):
We hope to get more countries involved.
We've got some different projects going.
And all the time we're looking at practical ways forward.
So the referees is one example, because it started off with one referee who wanted to volunteer.
He was a professional referee to come to events, and then other referees joined
in. And then we started the program to train up former players as referees, which here has come.
(41:10):
So it's a solution in itself because it's interesting.
There's not enough referees in the world. And so we've gone,
hey, we can train up referees in this. There's jobs for people potentially in different countries.
And as you were saying, I think correctly, the power of the football is the one language.
You see, the referees can have a sign or do whatever and everybody understands it.
(41:32):
And it's a very simple game. you kick the ball and then
you try and get in the goal okay if you get more than
the other side then you win the game that's all it's really simple but having
the referees has been something that's worked but then you know a lot of our
partners in the 70 countries now are run by former players actually and they
(41:52):
get huge respect from people of illness and their coaching certificates etc etc,
so what we're trying to do is you know everything builds on itself it feeds
off itself And we tell the stories and former players like, like Sarah,
tell a story that inspire others that, that bring other people to the table.
So we, we try and create a momentum and a, and a movement, which is about change
(42:14):
and positive change through football.
Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you for sharing all of that.
You've, this is like you said, it's beyond your wildest dreams.
It's not, it wasn't even my dream and it's beyond my wildest dreams.
Because this is just such an amazing, I'm looking at the webpage right now.
(42:36):
It's just such an amazing organization you have here, Mel, and the volunteers
and everyone that works with you.
What advice or what words of insight could you give to someone similarly who
has an idea or has something that they're concerned about, whether it's the environment,
(42:57):
whether it's issues of rights for women, and issues of rights for the homeless,
issue of rights for animals,
anything that people feel truly passionate about to turn into a movement in this way.
What words of insight and what words of inspiration would you have for them? And also to you, Sarah.
(43:18):
You went through the hardship that many people go through, but many people don't go through.
And you were able to use the Homeless World Cup and the tools of the Homeless
World Cup to lift yourself out of this.
So what advice would you have to anyone who is enduring hardship in this moment?
(43:39):
Maybe, Mel, you could start first.
Sure. I mean, I think my message is actually quite simple to people.
We all need to do something. so therefore do something and
but but you know we don't have to make it kind of hugely grand
so don't get put off tiny things tiny
steps that you can do that are constructive be
(43:59):
they about volunteering or setting up a social enterprise and
some of us are more enterprising than than others is
just part of a DNA then do it and
don't be frightened to do it because it's important what you
do and even if this is a tiny thing it can
make a big difference so just go ahead and do it don't be inhibited
go for it do it and there are other people around there's
(44:21):
networks now of social entrepreneurs that will provide you with
advice mentoring support out there
you know we have a you know again i use this word a lot
kind of family around the world to kind of you know people have
the same dna but the one thing i would advise guys don't don't
don't say hey i'm gonna have to change the world
so you know i'm gonna take on all these huge
(44:42):
responsibilities you don't have to do that at the beginning it's just
small things so if you think about our journey
we started off with just a ball and it was going to be like like two
teams and we never knew about we were going
to be the signs and we never knew that referees
were going to be such an important part and the potential it just grows organically
and your your passion for whatever it is you're doing starting small will connect
(45:06):
with other people for sure and and and therefore it starts growing and and concentrate
not on the growth, but on the impact.
So I, my advice to anybody is just, just, just do small things, but do something.
Don't the world is, is I think getting itself into a very, very difficult place.
And a lot of people are just excluded and the climate issue.
(45:30):
So we, we need to do something.
And so we need creative ideas.
We need people who can make things happen.
And if we all connect together, then, then that's how you create,
create the change. So that would be my pearl of wisdom, if you like.
Love it, love it. Step by step, block by block, build. Yes, exactly.
(45:52):
I would say mine would be any idea or dreams are not limited.
It's just taking the time and the patience to get to where you need to get.
Don't rush it. Not everything happens in a day. It can take time.
And it's needing them resources.
Go out there and get what you need to get where you want to get to because it
(46:15):
can happen, there's no no's,
nothing is unreachable it's like in my circumstances I thought I would never
get a job where I am now event coordinator now all of my CV I writ,
was like scenarios were all related to street football or homeless work up from
refereeing, how do you handle a bad situation, referee solution this solution,
(46:38):
Any little experience can help you get to where you need to get to.
It all just takes a little bit of time and patience.
But as long as you've got the resources there, you get the help that you need.
It's there. You just need to grab it when you can.
That's the best one I can give. There you go. Yeah, I felt that one myself.
(46:59):
That was like advice to me right there. Thank you.
Thank you both of you for being on this podcast.
All Power to the Developing, which I just said, we named this podcast All Power
to the Developing because we really wanted to give light to all the people around
the world who give power to people who are developing.
(47:21):
When you hear that phrase, All Power to the Developing, what is something that comes to your mind?
More power to the people, I would say. Give yourself your own power,
not not having to go by
everyone else's choices be unique yeah i
(47:41):
mean i think i would share seriously i think it's it's about
us individually and collectively taking taking action
which is positive not you know i i'm there's a lot to moan about okay there's
a lot wrong so we could go on about it but we go on and on about it okay but
let's do some things then that are positive so So all power means collective
(48:04):
action, working together.
Identifying that we have similar values, which are about simple things like
fairness, community, neighborhood, et cetera, just being human beings to one another.
Simple things that we want and we can join together and that then creates the
(48:24):
power for people who are developing things.
Definitely, definitely. Well, you heard it there. This was a great episode of
All Power to the Developing.
If people would like to learn more about the homeless world
cup mel where could people go to learn more about the homeless
world cup and probably learn more about you yeah i
think simply go to our website which is homelessworldcup.org so
(48:46):
all one word.org and i mean in there
you can find out all about us our event this year
in 2024 is going to be in seoul in south korea there's a
netflix movie coming out towards the end of march all
sorts of things going on and i would just say to
people if you want you can join in we're always looking for volunteers
our street soccer partners in 70 odd countries
(49:08):
are looking for volunteers sponsors supporters you know
again just back to the the the title of this
talk it's about joining and let's kind of work together and you know power to
the developing and change the world accordingly but our uber aim if you like
is it's not it's not to exist because there shouldn't be any homelessness in
the world okay so let let And people sometimes say, look, Mel,
(49:31):
you've just been really naive.
But maybe, maybe.
I just don't think we should have a world where there's any homelessness.
And so, but by people joining in, and as I want to repeat, by doing small things
together, we can actually change things.
And if we want to, we put people on the moon, you know, we created the internet, blah, blah, blah.
(49:54):
All these things which are amazing, as human beings, we can end homelessness if we want to.
Yes, yes. And that's a very powerful last sentiment from Mel right there.
We have a lot of work to do to end this massive global problem of homelessness,
and it starts with you, one person at a time.
Thank you for listening to All Power to the Developing. I'm your host, Desiree Wandon.
(50:17):
All Power to the Developing is available on most and all digital streaming platforms.
Also, you can write to us at podcast at eastsideinstitute.org to let us know
which episode you like and what you liked about the episode.
We would love to read your response at the end of the episode, so please write to us.
Please like, comment, and subscribe and let us know what you love about the podcast.
(50:39):
And we have a lot more in store for you in the year of 2024.
Thank you again, Mel. And thank you again, Sarah. And once again.
Music.
This has been All Power to the Developing. Thank you.
(51:00):
All Power to the Developing was
made possible in part by Growing Social Therapeutics, the Bailiwick Fund.
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