Cissie Gool House was an abandoned hospital in Cape Town, South Africa, empty and decaying for 40 years, when homeless activists snuck past security on the night of March 27, 2017, and began an occupation that, seven years later, has transformed it into a vibrant self-governing community of 1,000 formerly homeless, evicted, and displaced people. Two leaders of Cissie Gool House, Karen Hendricks and Fagmeedah Ling, join host Desire Wandan to discuss how the residents themselves renovated the building, set up working committees to deal with elder, youth, maintenance and security issues, and expanded their occupation into a movement that now convenes “Peoples’ Assemblies” to teach others about tenants’ rights, fights evictions, monitors the housing courts, and agitates for enforcement of South Africa’s constitution, which declares that, “everyone has the right to have access to adequate housing.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4iG4wYQeu0&t=12s
This 6-minute clip explains the occupation and features Karen This is the website link to Reclaim The City: https://reclaimthecity.org.za/ An NPR article about the three occupations part of Reclaim the City. https://news.wjct.org/2022-12-24/inside-south-africas-hijacked-buildings-all-we-want-is-a-place-to-call-home
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to All Power to the Developing, a podcast of the Eastside Institute,
where social justice, human development, and community building come together.
This is where you will meet activists, artists, teachers, scholars,
helpers, and healers while bringing creativity, hope, and possibility to individuals
and communities all over the world.
Music.
(00:36):
Hello, everyone. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Welcome to All Power to the Developing.
This is your host, Desiree Wandon, Des for short. I hope everyone is doing good today.
Today, I'm honored to have two guests from Cape Town, South Africa,
Karin Hendricks and Fakmida Ling.
They are among the leaders, many of them women, of Sisi Ghulhaus,
(00:58):
a long-abandoned hospital that was taken over by housing activists seven years ago.
And today is a vibrant, self-governing community of more than a thousand formerly homeless people.
Karin and Fakmira, welcome to All Power to Developing. How are you doing?
Good day, Jason. Good day to the listeners. Thank you for having us. Hi, everyone.
(01:20):
Nice to be here and thank you so much for having us here today. day.
Yes, yes. Thank you so much for you two being here with us, zooming in all the way from South Africa.
This is going to be such a great episode to learn a lot about the amazing work
going out at Sissy Gould House.
Before we get into Sissy Gould House and what it is, I think I want to speak
(01:43):
a little bit about the political atmosphere that led into this type of crisis
in South Africa. And I think that kind of starts a little with apartheid.
So can you kind of give us a little overview of how apartheid has taken South
Africa and maybe add into that, you know, your personal history as two women
that were living in South Africa when this was occurring?
(02:06):
Yeah, so living in Cape Town,
particularly if you come from a poor or working class and black background or
family, has its challenges,
as far as life challenges.
And we love the experience of this inequality still today.
(02:29):
Day, even though in 1994, when we moved into a democracy, we had so much hope
that there would be equality as well as equity.
But to date, that hasn't really happened.
Everything is on paper. We have one of the greatest constitutions on paper,
(02:50):
but yet we are still living in squalor and people are still not being treated
in a just and fair manner because of their class,
their race,
and the fact that we are not wealthy and we do not have money.
(03:11):
So that is still, those were one of the norms of apartheid where people were
classed and classified because of the color of their skin and also because of their class situation.
And that defines where we are right now.
(03:33):
We are supposed to be at the crossroads. We were supposed to be crossing over in 1994,
but to date we still face the same inequalities of housing injustice,
hunger, poverty, and so much more in South Africa.
Thank you. You said, Karin, you said in 1994, when you switched over to democracy,
(03:57):
there was thought that things would change.
What exactly was going on in that time period of 1994?
Can you describe a little bit about how it was and what was the thought of what
it would be after this time period?
So there was a hope that, and I'd like to make reference to our constitution,
(04:18):
that in section 26 of the constitution, for example, the constitution speaks
about the right to housing, that everyone has the right to housing.
And in Cape Town, Cape Town has the biggest affordability crisis,
housing affordability crisis.
And in Cape Town alone, or in the Western Cape, there are more than 600,000
(04:43):
people who are waiting for housing.
And it cannot be that these were the promises that were made by a democratic
government or in a new dawn or a new democracy.
And 30 years later, we have not yet realized those promises.
(05:04):
The same, I would like to add to what Corinne has just said here nowadays.
You see, with the apartheid era,
our families were forcefully removed from a place called District 6,
which is a very prominent piece of land,
very close to the mountain, to the sea, to,
(05:30):
All the privilege, I don't like to use the word privilege, but all of these
were taken away from them that time when they were forcefully removed.
And for me, I was born and raised in Cape Town.
The same thing is happening to us that has happened to our parents and grandparents at the time.
(05:58):
They were also taken from these prominent areas and spaces and thrown on the outskirts.
Why? We still don't know. As Karen said, it is because we don't have six-figure bank balances.
We don't have the right color scheme. We are not seen as prominent figures.
That is why we get treated in this manner. And up until today,
(06:22):
where those people were removed, nothing or little development has taken place in part of those areas.
And the place where we are, where I was born in, my children were born in,
and we were raised in this Woodstock area.
The same is happening here now. It's just that the word apartheid has changed to gentrification.
(06:49):
It's the same thing happening over and
over again when nelson mandela
was released from prison he
came into presidency in 1994 right
so we had hope we had new visions we we were thinking change is gonna come 30
(07:13):
years down the line what changes has come where we are stuck where we were were
right then, 30 years back.
And we are still in the struggle, especially this housing struggle.
And the areas that we were born in, our government don't see us.
(07:34):
In this environment. We are not good and fit to be in this environment and hence
our struggle and hence this is also how we ended up in Sasegoo House.
That was the old Woodstock Day Hospital that we renamed to Sasegoo House.
I am one of 14 families that has been evicted from a road called out of the
(07:59):
road and in a three-year struggle, a court struggle, we lost our case.
And I can tell you, it was a fight and a half.
Then we were given options like a place called Wolveravie, which is 45 kilometers out of the city.
And this is where we stay. This is where we were born in.
(08:21):
And then another option was a place called Likis Rator.
Door and the third option was a place called
peace and if you go into detail
and look at what these places look like where they want to put us we did our
own survey hence us moving and taking over this space that has been empty for
(08:44):
almost 40 years it has not been operational it was just just standing there.
So we started Reclaim the City in 2016.
2017, we moved into the Woodstock Day Hospital, and we made it our home.
We turned it into the homes of many others as time went on.
(09:07):
We are there now going in for seven years.
And we renamed, as you said before, our home is called Sasi Kuaus.
Lots of promises there yeah yeah
thank you so much for everything that you just
gave there in terms of the background and
the political situation and also you know just the brutality that that people
(09:30):
have faced from the government so you're facing this apartheid you're facing
this kind of lynching so to speak through legislation that is just displacing many people.
Where where are these movements coming
up from are you are you you just
(09:51):
said here fuck me bug meter you said that you among
15 families and then car and you spoke a little some how did these movements
initially get started did it just get started out of people in the communities
coming together to band together or were different people from different areas
coming together and unifying to form these movements that initially took on apartheid.
(10:15):
That is exactly what happened. You know, without parents and grandparents,
they didn't have a leg to stand on, sort of.
They were just thrown in the deep end, and they just had to take what was thrown
at them, hence them being forcefully removed from their homes at that time.
(10:36):
But now, with us, it's a different scenario.
We are not going to take anything thrown at us just sitting down.
And for me, I am a kindergarten teacher.
I was not even politically bound or politically inclined to do anything until
(10:59):
I was evicted from my home.
And then all of these just sort of the thinking back and the reoccurrence of
events and things like that.
So that just angered me along the way and thinking that this is what my parents
had to endure and accept.
(11:21):
But we, this generation, is not going to just sit back and take everything being thrown at us.
We are not going to do that. And we didn't do that.
And we started the social movement, Reclaim the City.
And that is exactly what it says. Yes, we are reclaiming what is ours.
(11:43):
We are reclaiming the city because we have a slogan that says,
yeah, the city works for us.
But with us, the city does not work for us. It works for certain individuals.
So with that said, our movement is based on community members of people being
(12:08):
evicted from their homes, of people who were faced with eviction.
Hence, Ringling the City was born. Yes.
And Karan, for you, I mean, you just said that you were a kindergarten teacher,
not so politically inclined, and this just woke you up.
(12:28):
Karan, where were you in your political life, in your personal life,
when a lot of this was happening?
Yes, I'd like to believe, and I think I came here wearing my T-shirt today,
that the personal is political.
And it is so, because of our love experience.
And also, you know, when, so in Cape Town, there is a housing backlog, right?
(12:53):
Because of housing and affordability and because of the spatial planning,
the apartheid spatial planning that still exists today.
But this very housing backlog has also pushed people like ourselves towards
housing self-provisioning or self-provisioning housing because the state at all levels do not,
(13:22):
they actually lack the will to provide housing.
And this is what we have seen over the years that we have now been occupying this building.
But in the interim, while occupying the abandoned building, we have also been
called all kinds of names.
(13:42):
We've been called queue hijackers, we've been called queue jumpers,
boarding hijackers, criminals and the thing is, the one thing that the state
has missed, the state at all levels has missed,
is that we have actually transformed an abandoned building into a home for more
than a thousand residents who would otherwise have been left homeless,
(14:06):
whose dignity has actually been taken away from them.
And so on that basis, we are very serious about the labour that is involved
involved in leading in these occupations, in coordinating in the occupation,
in the daily, daily challenges that we face in the occupation as leaders of
(14:30):
the community and occupiers too. We too are occupiers.
And so, hence, we say that the personal is political because these are the very
challenges that we live all the time.
We face it, and we are faced with
a state that does not want to take accountability for their own failures.
(14:53):
For the lack of providing people with homes, a backlog of over 345,000,
I speak under correction, a backlog of that.
And yet we are sitting here with public parcels of vacant land that is being
(15:14):
sold off to private developers.
At a pittance of what the actual land is actually worth.
And this is what really bugs me.
And we would like to think that we are not the problem.
We are the solution because we have provided these families with homes where
(15:37):
the city failed to do that.
And it is written in our constitution, chapter 3, bullet 26.
Nobody is to be left homeless or displaced,
no one it is our constitutional right to have a roof over our heads and these
(15:58):
people have failed in all avenues,
in all spheres they have failed into doing this so we took initiative and we
created for ourselves and we stepped up we took people from the street.
And we placed them in Sasi Kulaus.
(16:18):
And this now became a problem for the city, who up until today does not have
a plan in place to give these people the backlog I'm talking about.
Me, myself, I am on that list, awaiting almost 20 years. I mean, really now?
(16:41):
Use that public vacant land. They don't want to develop on there.
They want to develop at a price, at a profit.
Now, our slogan says, land for people, not for profit.
Stop selling our land to private developers without meaningful engaging with us as if we do not exist.
(17:07):
We are the people we need to be communicated to and engaged with before you
take your decisions, before you go and do whatever you want to do out there as a prophet.
Say to your people, because your slogan clearly says.
(17:28):
The city works for you. The city is definitely not working for us. Yes, yes.
Sounds like they're working against you. Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. I would like to speak about the initiative that you guys did take.
Sisi Gouhal was originally the Woodstock Hospital, which was abandoned.
(17:51):
Could you speak a little bit about that? If you know any history about that
hospital, what did that hospital mean to that community and why was it initially abandoned, if you know?
You want to go? So once again, I think Fagmida also touched on gentrification.
Okay. And so this is the kind of state that we live in, a state that prioritizes
(18:16):
profit over people and people's lives.
And during the time when
this hospital was abandoned or the space was abandoned
it was obviously said that they could
no longer afford to uphold the facility
but also the reason that
the the the hospital had been at the time the hospital was one of the sites
(18:41):
the abandoned sites of public land that was promised and it was earmarked for
affordable housing or for social housing.
And that too did not happen. And the only reason that this space then,
the moment we went to occupy the space,
(19:02):
it was at that time that the municipality or the city of Cape Town then earmarked
the actual site for affordable housing for families.
But even though they did that, they could not have done that without pressure from us.
So up to the point that it was earmarked for affordable housing,
(19:26):
we were the ones who put pressure on them.
Reclaim the City movement put pressure on the city,
not to sell off the land to private developers, but rather to transform it into
a housing development for poor and working class families,
those who needed to access the city and the opportunities of the city.
(19:52):
You know, this Woodstock Day Hospital was a community hospital where we as children
were taken to when we were ill,
when we need to have our injections, our immunizations, when we had to have an emergency.
My mother was hospitalized in that very hospital more than once because she was a heart patient.
(20:20):
So in that facility, we often frequented there when we felt ill or otherwise,
and it was later developed also into like a dispensary where you could go and collect your meds from.
So the one side just sort of fell away.
(20:42):
Why? We don't know. But before we walked in there, it was already vacant for more than 14 years.
So little did I think that this hospital that I frequented as a child was going
to become my home one day.
The thought never crossed my mind. And even now, if we move into certain sections,
(21:09):
like the section where I moved in, we renamed that section Albert Road.
Because that is the place where we were evicted from.
So that space there, it just brought back many memories because as a child,
I walked those passages going to visit my mom who was hospitalized.
(21:31):
My sister's child was born there at some time. Somebody else is living in that
cubicle where her child was born in.
You know so when the memories and us living there at this point it just it speaks
to each other this hospital not only is our home today but it also is.
(21:54):
It has memories it it it brings back memories childhood memories and it makes
it even more personal at that yes yes i think we're going to pause really quick
to take a commercial break,
when we come back from the commercial break we're going to learn a little bit
more about the occupancy the challenges of going inside of a building and making
(22:17):
it a home we're also going to talk a little bit about the political situation
today in south africa and where these two women are today and where their work is today.
This is All Power to the Developing, and we'll be right back after this short commercial break.
Music.
(22:40):
Hi, I'm Melissa Meyer, Associate Director of the Eastside Institute.
Welcome to All Power to the Developing. I hope you're enjoying today's conversation.
In each episode, we introduce you to some amazing performance activists,
play revolutionaries, and developmentalists from around the world who talk to
us about their creative grassroots efforts to build a better world.
(23:04):
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You can find us on Amazon, Spotify, and Podbean. We'd love to hear your comments and ideas.
Like everything at the Institute, the growth of all power to the the developing
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Music.
We hope you're one of them. Thanks for your support. And now back to our conversation.
(23:35):
All power to the developing and we are back with our two guests, Karin and Mokmita.
So we are now Now at the stage where many things have taken place,
communities have been destroyed, people have been displaced.
But you guys have made the decision that we are going to occupy the former Woodstock
Hospital and we are going to turn this abandoned building into a home for people
(24:00):
and call it Sissy Ghoul House.
What were some of that those initial challenges of, you know,
because I haven't put up a drywall before.
I mean, I've done some some construction projects over my time.
But to go into a building now dealing with structural issues,
now dealing with electrical, now dealing with preservation of food, right?
So there's so many things to really think about.
(24:23):
So I really want to go there with you. What were some of those challenges of
initially going into that space and turning it into what you've turned it into?
Yeah, so the building had fallen into disrepair.
I mean, when we first moved in there, the building was full with debris, with rats.
(24:44):
The building had fallen into disrepair. It was vandalized. It was abandoned.
But from the people in our community then who moved in there,
they were the ones who then started to, I'll use the word fund,
(25:04):
fund the repair of the building.
And this was done through those residents who were artisans,
who come from the poorer end of the working class, who are bricklayers, plumbers,
electricians, and initially a lot of them who have done building work.
(25:29):
They were in and amongst those families who were displaced.
And that is where the repair to the building then started.
And also, the repair to the building then continued with a monthly contribution,
maintenance contribution, where each family or each household or head of household
(25:54):
would then pay 50 rand a contribution toward the repair to the building.
And in that way, the building then was transformed from its skeleton,
from its vandala skeleton, into a home for more than a thousand people.
(26:18):
When we moved in there, yeah, this was a derelict piece of public.
You can just imagine, it's just a petit. We didn't take the before and after
pictures, then would have given you a quiet atmosphere.
A clear picture of what we moved into at the time.
(26:38):
The place was full of dead birds, dead rats.
The water was kneeling and the water already turned green because it was stagnated
into certain parts of that building. The building was dark.
Some places were cordoned off. It was barricaded with burglar doors and gates.
(26:59):
Gates and where we moved
into we before the contribution structure
started we had to put our hands into
our pockets and do everything ourselves hence
we did you we reinstalled the electricity we turned back on the water we cleaned
(27:22):
out that place for almost a month before we could could actually start moving into certain areas.
And I was one of the families that moved in last in the section that I managed called Albert Road.
And before people were put into rooms and things like that, because now we had
(27:44):
to navigate our way through the space here.
Remember, this was an old hospital. So we have our x-ray section,
we have surgery section, We have the sensory section.
So the section where I am staying was the old x-ray section, for instance.
So you can just imagine every window being barred closed because where you take
(28:10):
your x-rays, everything has to be dark.
So I literally moved into a dark space that I had to put light in and things
like that. So, each section of that hospital told its story.
So, when people moved in and conformed the space into their homes,
(28:32):
you would never say that we joke about it today.
If you want to get to me, you go through the x-ray section.
Then they will know which way to go to get to me.
And another family lived where all the surgeries took place.
They will just direct them to the surgery passage.
(28:52):
No things like that. Today we joke about it, but when we moved in, it was not a joke at all.
It was peer pressure.
It was fear.
It was anger. It was all sorts of emotions that were just infused with each other.
(29:13):
Today we can sit off, sort of relax, but relax in the sense of relaxing because
our fight is far from over, is far from over.
And even if we are seven years in that space there.
Still, the city is not giving up their tactics and their ways to get us out of that space.
(29:38):
But not even they have something in plan for us other than those atrocious places
that they want us to move to.
And, you know, when we moved into this space, we too didn't know what the heck
we are going to do here. But as we moved on, we had our meetings on a Tuesday and a Wednesday.
(30:02):
And with this, we collected, we had a kitty box.
If you come to the, whatever you could throw in there.
And then as the weeks go on, we could offer you a cup of soup when you come to a meeting.
We could offer you a cup of coffee from that kitty money that we put that box there.
So things like that. And when we were really into the swing of things,
(30:27):
we started to create structures and mandated certain comrades and they were
mandated to do certain things.
Hence, we ended up with a structure like our elderly structure.
We had a youth structure. We had a safety task team structure.
(30:50):
We had a maintenance, and those were all structures comprising of the people
living in the space there.
We made turns sitting at the gates, watching the gates, It's seeing that no
element or unsavory character walk into those gates.
(31:11):
And that is what we started.
And up until today, we are working with that structure.
And it worked for us then, and it is still working for us now.
With our elderly structure, Karin and myself, we were on that structure with
other monitors and leaders and like,
(31:34):
You know, our elderly, these were people that were thrown out by their own children,
that were displaced by or put into a shelter all on their own.
We took them and we sort of let them move and took them under our wing,
but they were our elders.
(31:56):
So we took it upon ourselves and became responsible for them in some sort, if I may put it like that.
So this is what the city didn't want.
They didn't want to see us succeed in this manner that we were managing the
space that they left there for more than 14 years.
(32:20):
Going into derelict and just leaving that space there until they could find
another buyer for that particular space.
You know, when I talk about this, it just emotions flare up again because at
this government who is failing us on a daily basis,
(32:43):
failing us and not eradicating or getting rid of this apartheid mindset of them.
It is as clear as present day life, the way we are being treated.
You are in a certain class.
You are, you know, it's just, it's just very sad. Yeah, absolutely.
(33:06):
It's just very sad. Absolutely.
I can tell you that much. I want to speak a little bit about the emotional impact.
Because you spoke about the structural challenges and what it takes.
But I really want to speak about the emotional challenges and what it takes.
You know, you're coming out of apartheid, people are being abused,
beaten, displaced, literally being, you know, castrated, lynched out of society.
(33:33):
How are you guys able to just have this resilience to continue this movement throughout all of this?
And then now having to deal with structural issues altogether, building all of this.
How is it for everyone, you two emotionally, and then the emotional support
that the community gives to each other to maintain this movement?
(33:57):
That is of utmost importance. I'm going to give over to Karin,
but I just want to say, just put in my two cents.
For us, we don't see color.
We don't see creed. We don't see religion. We see people.
We see the need. That is what we see.
(34:17):
And that is what we work with. These are people with different difficulties
and problems that they were faced with.
And we became sort of one because our fight was the same.
Our fight was the same. So we became one.
(34:39):
When we came together and lived in Sisi Kool House, it wasn't easy.
It wasn't easy at all. It came with all sorts of challenges.
We had people who moved in there, who vandalized the place on a daily basis,
making it difficult for us to manage it in a proper and decent and dignified way.
(35:07):
There are these elements that just made things difficult for us.
That is but one of the challenges.
There were many others. When people died, for instance, with no families,
we had to take charge and see that that individual is buried in a dignified
manner and not just discarded,
(35:29):
you know, because this is a destitute case. We became a family.
We became one.
And that is how we still stand today. I'm going to give over to Karin now so
that she can talk about the emotional aspects.
Both of us, we have also faced personal challenges.
(35:53):
Very sad situations on a personal level as well.
But through it all, we just had to just go on and do what we were mandated to
do, which is help our fellow people, our community.
We created a community when we moved into that space there.
(36:18):
Yeah. Yeah, so just echoing some more of the emotions and the sentiment that
was brought through by Fahmida,
you know, the occupation consists of mainly women, single women-led households.
(36:40):
And being one of those single women-led households, it really wasn't easy.
To navigate our way through this process of occupying.
But through it all, and I think this
(37:02):
is where we reach the point that we say enough is enough because there was that
point in time that we then saw the occupation as the only housing opportunity.
As a movement fighting for people's dignity, not our own dignity only,
(37:26):
we were fighting for people's dignity.
As women, we have pushed through these seven years and built a community.
And right now, we are even imagining and dreaming about what the future of this
(37:51):
space or this community holds for each and every person who lives there.
And so, yes, it is emotional because it's our lived experience.
It's our lived experience as women. We live in a democratic country,
in a democratic dispensation, where women's rights should be equal to everyone else's rights.
(38:14):
But yet, when you look at the amount of people that are homeless,
when you look at the amount of people who are destitute, it would be women and their families.
When you look at the amount of people occupying and fighting for their dignity,
it is women who are at the forefront of fighting for people's dignity.
(38:35):
Yet, we still have a state that fails and does not recognize the rights of women.
And hence, I think going to go and do activism in health equity.
And people's social well-being and fighting for our dignity has been so important
(38:59):
for myself personally because of this lived experience.
And it's things that we face on a daily basis.
So it's not the two of us sitting here telling some fairy tale or some story.
We will not even try and romanticize what occupations are about.
(39:20):
But this is the hard labour, the labour of women and men fighting for dignity,
fighting to have a roof over their families' heads.
It is the hard labour that went into this occupation.
And it is prone to make us emotional.
(39:41):
It is prone that we would take it
personal because to us we say that
where people live where we live matters
we want to be close to the social opportunities
and amenities and economic opportunities of our city we have the right to that
we are citizens of Cape Town and we do have the right to our dignity we do have
(40:07):
the right to be close to economic and social social opportunities.
I mean, when I'm thinking back to COVID-19 and how we had to navigate our way
through COVID, living in a building that's occupied with more than a thousand
people and people living so close to one another,
we learned quite a lot during COVID. We learned from our experiences.
(40:31):
And the one thing that really still today stands out for me was,
and it's a lesson that we learned during COVID.
And as a woman, I take this lesson very seriously and I do apply it to how I
lead in the occupation itself and how I lead in the movement.
And that is that when COVID-19 started globally, the UN Rapporteur for Housing
(40:59):
distinctly made a statement to say that.
The right to access housing or adequate housing.
If people do not have that right during a pandemic, you are just as good as being dead.
Dead and buried. And it is at that juncture that we also then saw really the
(41:21):
strong need to have a home.
The strong need to have a roof over our heads and to fight and defend this roof over our heads.
And so we do so also by resisting.
Any form of eviction or displacement.
And we also support tenants who don't live in the occupation,
(41:43):
tenants who live in the communities, the surrounding communities and in the inner city.
We support them when they are going through an eviction or when they are being displaced.
And the kind of support that we render to them is
to have what we call people's assemblies or advice assemblies where we get together
(42:05):
with tenants and occupiers and together we actually teach one another what the
law says about evictions and we also teach one another our rights.
So it's an each one teach one process and we see there also how people's power
is more important than those people who are in power.
(42:28):
And we also go and we monitor the courts. We monitor how the courts actually allow for evictions.
But we also know that in our constitution, it's cited that magistrates or judges
do have an inquisitorial duty toward tenants or towards evictees.
(42:50):
And so that inquisitorial duty is to make sure that the person is provided with
alternative accommodation.
Where this alternative accommodation should be is another story.
And so that is the unjust part of things.
But we have the right to hold judges to account or the judicial system to account
(43:17):
for rendering people homeless according to our constitution.
No one should be rendered homeless. And so those are some of the activities
or campaigns that we have also embarked on from the very beginning of our movement,
was to say that we are a movement fighting for affordable housing in well-located areas,
(43:42):
close to economic and social opportunities, and resisting unjust evictions and displacement.
And so those would be the two values that makes up our movement Reclaim the City.
And Reclaim the City are the movement who has gone and occupied abandoned state buildings.
(44:10):
So there's more than one reclaimed city occupation. There is the Sisigu house,
which is the space that we live in.
But then there's also the Amatkasrada house on the waterfront,
on prime property, which was an old nurse's home, that also has been occupied by reclaimed city.
(44:32):
City and that is what makes up
this movement of the landless and of
the homeless resisting being pushed out of our city thank you and when it comes
to city goal house i just i'm just finishing quick on that um on this point
because my emotions really get triggered when we speak about what does it mean for us.
(44:58):
So what does it mean for Karen, for example, after almost seven years living
in an occupation, leading in an occupation, leading in a movement, fighting for.
Housing or fighting to have roof over one's head,
fighting for our dignity, community fighting for our
(45:18):
citizenship because as citizens
we do have the right to engage and
to be engaged with and and
as communities and so so what does
it mean for Karin what it means for me is
that there is this
building this specific building that we have
(45:40):
occupied has now become our hope and that we will defend this space and we will
also push and campaign for affordable housing on this space and in this space.
And we do so with our internal structures.
(46:02):
As Fahmida had already pointed out, we do have internal structures.
And on many of these internal structures, it is led by us as women.
And we pursue it.
But we don't only just pursue what we are doing. We are also building a movement.
We are building a movement of women. We are building a movement of young people.
(46:24):
And we are also building people's hope.
We are building the hope of those who have been failed and those who have been let down by the state.
And that is our elderly people who may die waiting for housing.
Many have died waiting for housing and it cannot be that way and one thing that
(46:48):
we always do say in ending is.
We cannot live in a housing waiting
list or database. We need to live in homes because we need to live.
And so everything about living in a space matters to us.
But where that space is particularly does matter to us.
(47:10):
And who we are also matters.
Nothing about us without us.
That is what we always say. For me, personally, and on the political side,
you know, when we moved into this space, we were labeled so many things.
We were labeled hapless criminals.
(47:33):
We were labeled drug headless. We were labeled alcohol sellers.
We were labeled, you name it, we were labeled all of that. Yet we want to get
away from this narrative.
But the government is not giving, they're not changing their minds about that.
(47:57):
Because we have even invited them on several occasions to come and see how we
live, how we live in that space that we created into our homes. but they don't want to.
They're not interested because they don't want to see a success story.
They don't want to see that. They want to see destruction.
(48:20):
That is what they want to see. So for me, political is really personal.
And where people love should matter. And I'm going to end off with that.
Thank you, Karin and Fagmida, for everything that you have shared throughout this episode.
(48:41):
I would like to ask one or two more questions to leave us off.
Throughout this episode, you've described what we call non-growing knowing.
Living in this uncertainty and still pushing forward with your people.
As i sit here in new york city we have
(49:02):
a housing crisis we have a what we're
calling a migrant crisis the more and
more people i speak to in the states and europe and different places
all over the world there's this term the
housing crisis the housing crisis we see
buildings being built every day but somehow no one
has anywhere to live what is
(49:23):
a message of of of that you
could give to other people around the world that are also fighting that are
also because you know you you two have shown so much resilience so much urgency
fighting through this major struggle of both mental and physical what is some
encouraging messages that you can give to other,
(49:44):
revolutionaries around the world that may want to work in this field of land
housing and health of equity or maybe other injustices that they're dealing with?
I think I can go first on this one. Don't give up. Don't give up.
I want to say that first and foremost.
You know, with this housing struggle,
(50:07):
you know, it really gets to a point where I'm asking,
asking why should we fight for
something that is supposed to be constitutionally due to us, number one.
(50:27):
Our parents and parents and parents and grandparents have been fighting the same struggle.
Why do we need to fight for something that is so relatively important for you as a person?
Why do we still... Our fight is like a rubber. It's a never-ending fight.
(50:54):
Our parents have fought. We are fighting now what our children also fight,
with something as simple as a roof over our heads.
And we are not asking here for mansions. We're not asking for palaces.
We are simply asking for a place to call home.
(51:16):
Simple. Why do we have to fight? But I want to encourage others.
The fight is far from over.
But I want to say this, don't give up. I know people out there has long gone
given up hope of being put into a space where they can go home.
(51:41):
We felt sort of like that at some point too, even with our court case.
We felt like that when we lost our court case.
But all is not lost.
That is what I want to say. All is not lost.
Even though it may seem that there's no light at the end of the tunnel,
(52:03):
some light is going to shine up there.
So don't give up hope and don't give up fighting for what is constitutionally your right.
Yeah, I mean, despite, so this is a global thing, right?
(52:23):
Absolutely. And then despite us and many other activist movements and communities
and even individual struggles to have a home, it's about having a home.
So despite all of that, despite our efforts,
right, the states have not been actors in trying to assist and support communities.
(52:54):
That is the common picture that I grasp from all of this.
And so my question in ending and my statement in ending here to encourage others
who are facing the same battle, It's a battle and it's a struggle for dignity,
(53:15):
is that who then are we waiting for?
And the answer to that is very simple, since there are no state actors supporting us.
I would say to everyone out there who feels that as if they cannot move forward with their struggle.
(53:36):
I want to say that the struggle continues and we are the ones that we have been waiting for.
We are the solution and not the problem.
We are the ones that we have been waiting. Aluta, continue up.
The struggle continues.
(53:58):
Don't give up. Absolutely. And if people would like to learn more about you two,
learn more about your work, learn more about the political movements and community
movements in South Africa that are fighting against land housing and health equity,
where could people go to find out a little bit more about you two and more about Sisi Go Health? health?
(54:19):
Reclaim the city.ca.za. So they could go on to Reclaim the City's website,
which is Reclaim the City, co.za, or alternatively,
they could email Reclaim the City at Reclaim the City.01.org.za.
(54:44):
Yes, yes. And we're going to have that in the description section for you,
for anyone that would like to stay in contact and learn about the amazing work going on in Cape Town.
Welcome to All Power to the Developing, a podcast of the Eastside Institute,
where social justice, human development, and community building come together.
This is where you will meet activists, artists, teachers, scholars,
helpers, and healers while bringing creativity, hope, and possibility to individuals
and communities all over the world.
Music.
(00:36):
Hello, everyone. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Welcome to All Power to the Developing.
This is your host, Desiree Wandon, Des for short. I hope everyone is doing good today.
Today, I'm honored to have two guests from Cape Town, South Africa,
Karin Hendricks and Fakmida Ling.
They are among the leaders, many of them women, of Sisi Ghulhaus,
(00:58):
a long-abandoned hospital that was taken over by housing activists seven years ago.
And today is a vibrant, self-governing community of more than a thousand formerly homeless people.
Karin and Fakmira, welcome to All Power to Developing. How are you doing?
Good day, Jason. Good day to the listeners. Thank you for having us. Hi, everyone.
(01:20):
Nice to be here and thank you so much for having us here today. day.
Yes, yes. Thank you so much for you two being here with us, zooming in all the way from South Africa.
This is going to be such a great episode to learn a lot about the amazing work
going out at Sissy Gould House.
Before we get into Sissy Gould House and what it is, I think I want to speak
(01:43):
a little bit about the political atmosphere that led into this type of crisis
in South Africa. And I think that kind of starts a little with apartheid.
So can you kind of give us a little overview of how apartheid has taken South
Africa and maybe add into that, you know, your personal history as two women
that were living in South Africa when this was occurring?
(02:06):
Yeah, so living in Cape Town,
particularly if you come from a poor or working class and black background or
family, has its challenges,
as far as life challenges.
And we love the experience of this inequality still today.
(02:29):
Day, even though in 1994, when we moved into a democracy, we had so much hope
that there would be equality as well as equity.
But to date, that hasn't really happened.
Everything is on paper. We have one of the greatest constitutions on paper,
(02:50):
but yet we are still living in squalor and people are still not being treated
in a just and fair manner because of their class,
their race,
and the fact that we are not wealthy and we do not have money.
(03:11):
So that is still, those were one of the norms of apartheid where people were
classed and classified because of the color of their skin and also because of their class situation.
And that defines where we are right now.
(03:33):
We are supposed to be at the crossroads. We were supposed to be crossing over in 1994,
but to date we still face the same inequalities of housing injustice,
hunger, poverty, and so much more in South Africa.
Thank you. You said, Karin, you said in 1994, when you switched over to democracy,
(03:57):
there was thought that things would change.
What exactly was going on in that time period of 1994?
Can you describe a little bit about how it was and what was the thought of what
it would be after this time period?
So there was a hope that, and I'd like to make reference to our constitution,
(04:18):
that in section 26 of the constitution, for example, the constitution speaks
about the right to housing, that everyone has the right to housing.
And in Cape Town, Cape Town has the biggest affordability crisis,
housing affordability crisis.
And in Cape Town alone, or in the Western Cape, there are more than 600,000
(04:43):
people who are waiting for housing.
And it cannot be that these were the promises that were made by a democratic
government or in a new dawn or a new democracy.
And 30 years later, we have not yet realized those promises.
(05:04):
The same, I would like to add to what Corinne has just said here nowadays.
You see, with the apartheid era,
our families were forcefully removed from a place called District 6,
which is a very prominent piece of land,
very close to the mountain, to the sea, to,
(05:30):
All the privilege, I don't like to use the word privilege, but all of these
were taken away from them that time when they were forcefully removed.
And for me, I was born and raised in Cape Town.
The same thing is happening to us that has happened to our parents and grandparents at the time.
(05:58):
They were also taken from these prominent areas and spaces and thrown on the outskirts.
Why? We still don't know. As Karen said, it is because we don't have six-figure bank balances.
We don't have the right color scheme. We are not seen as prominent figures.
That is why we get treated in this manner. And up until today,
(06:22):
where those people were removed, nothing or little development has taken place in part of those areas.
And the place where we are, where I was born in, my children were born in,
and we were raised in this Woodstock area.
The same is happening here now. It's just that the word apartheid has changed to gentrification.
(06:49):
It's the same thing happening over and
over again when nelson mandela
was released from prison he
came into presidency in 1994 right
so we had hope we had new visions we we were thinking change is gonna come 30
(07:13):
years down the line what changes has come where we are stuck where we were were
right then, 30 years back.
And we are still in the struggle, especially this housing struggle.
And the areas that we were born in, our government don't see us.
(07:34):
In this environment. We are not good and fit to be in this environment and hence
our struggle and hence this is also how we ended up in Sasegoo House.
That was the old Woodstock Day Hospital that we renamed to Sasegoo House.
I am one of 14 families that has been evicted from a road called out of the
(07:59):
road and in a three-year struggle, a court struggle, we lost our case.
And I can tell you, it was a fight and a half.
Then we were given options like a place called Wolveravie, which is 45 kilometers out of the city.
And this is where we stay. This is where we were born in.
(08:21):
And then another option was a place called Likis Rator.
Door and the third option was a place called
peace and if you go into detail
and look at what these places look like where they want to put us we did our
own survey hence us moving and taking over this space that has been empty for
(08:44):
almost 40 years it has not been operational it was just just standing there.
So we started Reclaim the City in 2016.
2017, we moved into the Woodstock Day Hospital, and we made it our home.
We turned it into the homes of many others as time went on.
(09:07):
We are there now going in for seven years.
And we renamed, as you said before, our home is called Sasi Kuaus.
Lots of promises there yeah yeah
thank you so much for everything that you just
gave there in terms of the background and
the political situation and also you know just the brutality that that people
(09:30):
have faced from the government so you're facing this apartheid you're facing
this kind of lynching so to speak through legislation that is just displacing many people.
Where where are these movements coming
up from are you are you you just
(09:51):
said here fuck me bug meter you said that you among
15 families and then car and you spoke a little some how did these movements
initially get started did it just get started out of people in the communities
coming together to band together or were different people from different areas
coming together and unifying to form these movements that initially took on apartheid.
(10:15):
That is exactly what happened. You know, without parents and grandparents,
they didn't have a leg to stand on, sort of.
They were just thrown in the deep end, and they just had to take what was thrown
at them, hence them being forcefully removed from their homes at that time.
(10:36):
But now, with us, it's a different scenario.
We are not going to take anything thrown at us just sitting down.
And for me, I am a kindergarten teacher.
I was not even politically bound or politically inclined to do anything until
(10:59):
I was evicted from my home.
And then all of these just sort of the thinking back and the reoccurrence of
events and things like that.
So that just angered me along the way and thinking that this is what my parents
had to endure and accept.
(11:21):
But we, this generation, is not going to just sit back and take everything being thrown at us.
We are not going to do that. And we didn't do that.
And we started the social movement, Reclaim the City.
And that is exactly what it says. Yes, we are reclaiming what is ours.
(11:43):
We are reclaiming the city because we have a slogan that says,
yeah, the city works for us.
But with us, the city does not work for us. It works for certain individuals.
So with that said, our movement is based on community members of people being
(12:08):
evicted from their homes, of people who were faced with eviction.
Hence, Ringling the City was born. Yes.
And Karan, for you, I mean, you just said that you were a kindergarten teacher,
not so politically inclined, and this just woke you up.
(12:28):
Karan, where were you in your political life, in your personal life,
when a lot of this was happening?
Yes, I'd like to believe, and I think I came here wearing my T-shirt today,
that the personal is political.
And it is so, because of our love experience.
And also, you know, when, so in Cape Town, there is a housing backlog, right?
(12:53):
Because of housing and affordability and because of the spatial planning,
the apartheid spatial planning that still exists today.
But this very housing backlog has also pushed people like ourselves towards
housing self-provisioning or self-provisioning housing because the state at all levels do not,
(13:22):
they actually lack the will to provide housing.
And this is what we have seen over the years that we have now been occupying this building.
But in the interim, while occupying the abandoned building, we have also been
called all kinds of names.
(13:42):
We've been called queue hijackers, we've been called queue jumpers,
boarding hijackers, criminals and the thing is, the one thing that the state
has missed, the state at all levels has missed,
is that we have actually transformed an abandoned building into a home for more
than a thousand residents who would otherwise have been left homeless,
(14:06):
whose dignity has actually been taken away from them.
And so on that basis, we are very serious about the labour that is involved
involved in leading in these occupations, in coordinating in the occupation,
in the daily, daily challenges that we face in the occupation as leaders of
(14:30):
the community and occupiers too. We too are occupiers.
And so, hence, we say that the personal is political because these are the very
challenges that we live all the time.
We face it, and we are faced with
a state that does not want to take accountability for their own failures.
(14:53):
For the lack of providing people with homes, a backlog of over 345,000,
I speak under correction, a backlog of that.
And yet we are sitting here with public parcels of vacant land that is being
(15:14):
sold off to private developers.
At a pittance of what the actual land is actually worth.
And this is what really bugs me.
And we would like to think that we are not the problem.
We are the solution because we have provided these families with homes where
(15:37):
the city failed to do that.
And it is written in our constitution, chapter 3, bullet 26.
Nobody is to be left homeless or displaced,
no one it is our constitutional right to have a roof over our heads and these
(15:58):
people have failed in all avenues,
in all spheres they have failed into doing this so we took initiative and we
created for ourselves and we stepped up we took people from the street.
And we placed them in Sasi Kulaus.
(16:18):
And this now became a problem for the city, who up until today does not have
a plan in place to give these people the backlog I'm talking about.
Me, myself, I am on that list, awaiting almost 20 years. I mean, really now?
(16:41):
Use that public vacant land. They don't want to develop on there.
They want to develop at a price, at a profit.
Now, our slogan says, land for people, not for profit.
Stop selling our land to private developers without meaningful engaging with us as if we do not exist.
(17:07):
We are the people we need to be communicated to and engaged with before you
take your decisions, before you go and do whatever you want to do out there as a prophet.
Say to your people, because your slogan clearly says.
(17:28):
The city works for you. The city is definitely not working for us. Yes, yes.
Sounds like they're working against you. Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. I would like to speak about the initiative that you guys did take.
Sisi Gouhal was originally the Woodstock Hospital, which was abandoned.
(17:51):
Could you speak a little bit about that? If you know any history about that
hospital, what did that hospital mean to that community and why was it initially abandoned, if you know?
You want to go? So once again, I think Fagmida also touched on gentrification.
Okay. And so this is the kind of state that we live in, a state that prioritizes
(18:16):
profit over people and people's lives.
And during the time when
this hospital was abandoned or the space was abandoned
it was obviously said that they could
no longer afford to uphold the facility
but also the reason that
the the the hospital had been at the time the hospital was one of the sites
(18:41):
the abandoned sites of public land that was promised and it was earmarked for
affordable housing or for social housing.
And that too did not happen. And the only reason that this space then,
the moment we went to occupy the space,
(19:02):
it was at that time that the municipality or the city of Cape Town then earmarked
the actual site for affordable housing for families.
But even though they did that, they could not have done that without pressure from us.
So up to the point that it was earmarked for affordable housing,
(19:26):
we were the ones who put pressure on them.
Reclaim the City movement put pressure on the city,
not to sell off the land to private developers, but rather to transform it into
a housing development for poor and working class families,
those who needed to access the city and the opportunities of the city.
(19:52):
You know, this Woodstock Day Hospital was a community hospital where we as children
were taken to when we were ill,
when we need to have our injections, our immunizations, when we had to have an emergency.
My mother was hospitalized in that very hospital more than once because she was a heart patient.
(20:20):
So in that facility, we often frequented there when we felt ill or otherwise,
and it was later developed also into like a dispensary where you could go and collect your meds from.
So the one side just sort of fell away.
(20:42):
Why? We don't know. But before we walked in there, it was already vacant for more than 14 years.
So little did I think that this hospital that I frequented as a child was going
to become my home one day.
The thought never crossed my mind. And even now, if we move into certain sections,
(21:09):
like the section where I moved in, we renamed that section Albert Road.
Because that is the place where we were evicted from.
So that space there, it just brought back many memories because as a child,
I walked those passages going to visit my mom who was hospitalized.
(21:31):
My sister's child was born there at some time. Somebody else is living in that
cubicle where her child was born in.
You know so when the memories and us living there at this point it just it speaks
to each other this hospital not only is our home today but it also is.
(21:54):
It has memories it it it brings back memories childhood memories and it makes
it even more personal at that yes yes i think we're going to pause really quick
to take a commercial break,
when we come back from the commercial break we're going to learn a little bit
more about the occupancy the challenges of going inside of a building and making
(22:17):
it a home we're also going to talk a little bit about the political situation
today in south africa and where these two women are today and where their work is today.
This is All Power to the Developing, and we'll be right back after this short commercial break.
Music.
(22:40):
Hi, I'm Melissa Meyer, Associate Director of the Eastside Institute.
Welcome to All Power to the Developing. I hope you're enjoying today's conversation.
In each episode, we introduce you to some amazing performance activists,
play revolutionaries, and developmentalists from around the world who talk to
us about their creative grassroots efforts to build a better world.
(23:04):
If you like what you hear, please follow and share the series.
You can find us on Amazon, Spotify, and Podbean. We'd love to hear your comments and ideas.
Like everything at the Institute, the growth of all power to the the developing
depends upon the people who create it and benefit from it.
Music.
We hope you're one of them. Thanks for your support. And now back to our conversation.
(23:35):
All power to the developing and we are back with our two guests, Karin and Mokmita.
So we are now Now at the stage where many things have taken place,
communities have been destroyed, people have been displaced.
But you guys have made the decision that we are going to occupy the former Woodstock
Hospital and we are going to turn this abandoned building into a home for people
(24:00):
and call it Sissy Ghoul House.
What were some of that those initial challenges of, you know,
because I haven't put up a drywall before.
I mean, I've done some some construction projects over my time.
But to go into a building now dealing with structural issues,
now dealing with electrical, now dealing with preservation of food, right?
So there's so many things to really think about.
(24:23):
So I really want to go there with you. What were some of those challenges of
initially going into that space and turning it into what you've turned it into?
Yeah, so the building had fallen into disrepair.
I mean, when we first moved in there, the building was full with debris, with rats.
(24:44):
The building had fallen into disrepair. It was vandalized. It was abandoned.
But from the people in our community then who moved in there,
they were the ones who then started to, I'll use the word fund,
(25:04):
fund the repair of the building.
And this was done through those residents who were artisans,
who come from the poorer end of the working class, who are bricklayers, plumbers,
electricians, and initially a lot of them who have done building work.
(25:29):
They were in and amongst those families who were displaced.
And that is where the repair to the building then started.
And also, the repair to the building then continued with a monthly contribution,
maintenance contribution, where each family or each household or head of household
(25:54):
would then pay 50 rand a contribution toward the repair to the building.
And in that way, the building then was transformed from its skeleton,
from its vandala skeleton, into a home for more than a thousand people.
(26:18):
When we moved in there, yeah, this was a derelict piece of public.
You can just imagine, it's just a petit. We didn't take the before and after
pictures, then would have given you a quiet atmosphere.
A clear picture of what we moved into at the time.
(26:38):
The place was full of dead birds, dead rats.
The water was kneeling and the water already turned green because it was stagnated
into certain parts of that building. The building was dark.
Some places were cordoned off. It was barricaded with burglar doors and gates.
(26:59):
Gates and where we moved
into we before the contribution structure
started we had to put our hands into
our pockets and do everything ourselves hence
we did you we reinstalled the electricity we turned back on the water we cleaned
(27:22):
out that place for almost a month before we could could actually start moving into certain areas.
And I was one of the families that moved in last in the section that I managed called Albert Road.
And before people were put into rooms and things like that, because now we had
(27:44):
to navigate our way through the space here.
Remember, this was an old hospital. So we have our x-ray section,
we have surgery section, We have the sensory section.
So the section where I am staying was the old x-ray section, for instance.
So you can just imagine every window being barred closed because where you take
(28:10):
your x-rays, everything has to be dark.
So I literally moved into a dark space that I had to put light in and things
like that. So, each section of that hospital told its story.
So, when people moved in and conformed the space into their homes,
(28:32):
you would never say that we joke about it today.
If you want to get to me, you go through the x-ray section.
Then they will know which way to go to get to me.
And another family lived where all the surgeries took place.
They will just direct them to the surgery passage.
(28:52):
No things like that. Today we joke about it, but when we moved in, it was not a joke at all.
It was peer pressure.
It was fear.
It was anger. It was all sorts of emotions that were just infused with each other.
(29:13):
Today we can sit off, sort of relax, but relax in the sense of relaxing because
our fight is far from over, is far from over.
And even if we are seven years in that space there.
Still, the city is not giving up their tactics and their ways to get us out of that space.
(29:38):
But not even they have something in plan for us other than those atrocious places
that they want us to move to.
And, you know, when we moved into this space, we too didn't know what the heck
we are going to do here. But as we moved on, we had our meetings on a Tuesday and a Wednesday.
(30:02):
And with this, we collected, we had a kitty box.
If you come to the, whatever you could throw in there.
And then as the weeks go on, we could offer you a cup of soup when you come to a meeting.
We could offer you a cup of coffee from that kitty money that we put that box there.
So things like that. And when we were really into the swing of things,
(30:27):
we started to create structures and mandated certain comrades and they were
mandated to do certain things.
Hence, we ended up with a structure like our elderly structure.
We had a youth structure. We had a safety task team structure.
(30:50):
We had a maintenance, and those were all structures comprising of the people
living in the space there.
We made turns sitting at the gates, watching the gates, It's seeing that no
element or unsavory character walk into those gates.
(31:11):
And that is what we started.
And up until today, we are working with that structure.
And it worked for us then, and it is still working for us now.
With our elderly structure, Karin and myself, we were on that structure with
other monitors and leaders and like,
(31:34):
You know, our elderly, these were people that were thrown out by their own children,
that were displaced by or put into a shelter all on their own.
We took them and we sort of let them move and took them under our wing,
but they were our elders.
(31:56):
So we took it upon ourselves and became responsible for them in some sort, if I may put it like that.
So this is what the city didn't want.
They didn't want to see us succeed in this manner that we were managing the
space that they left there for more than 14 years.
(32:20):
Going into derelict and just leaving that space there until they could find
another buyer for that particular space.
You know, when I talk about this, it just emotions flare up again because at
this government who is failing us on a daily basis,
(32:43):
failing us and not eradicating or getting rid of this apartheid mindset of them.
It is as clear as present day life, the way we are being treated.
You are in a certain class.
You are, you know, it's just, it's just very sad. Yeah, absolutely.
(33:06):
It's just very sad. Absolutely.
I can tell you that much. I want to speak a little bit about the emotional impact.
Because you spoke about the structural challenges and what it takes.
But I really want to speak about the emotional challenges and what it takes.
You know, you're coming out of apartheid, people are being abused,
beaten, displaced, literally being, you know, castrated, lynched out of society.
(33:33):
How are you guys able to just have this resilience to continue this movement throughout all of this?
And then now having to deal with structural issues altogether, building all of this.
How is it for everyone, you two emotionally, and then the emotional support
that the community gives to each other to maintain this movement?
(33:57):
That is of utmost importance. I'm going to give over to Karin,
but I just want to say, just put in my two cents.
For us, we don't see color.
We don't see creed. We don't see religion. We see people.
We see the need. That is what we see.
(34:17):
And that is what we work with. These are people with different difficulties
and problems that they were faced with.
And we became sort of one because our fight was the same.
Our fight was the same. So we became one.
(34:39):
When we came together and lived in Sisi Kool House, it wasn't easy.
It wasn't easy at all. It came with all sorts of challenges.
We had people who moved in there, who vandalized the place on a daily basis,
making it difficult for us to manage it in a proper and decent and dignified way.
(35:07):
There are these elements that just made things difficult for us.
That is but one of the challenges.
There were many others. When people died, for instance, with no families,
we had to take charge and see that that individual is buried in a dignified
manner and not just discarded,
(35:29):
you know, because this is a destitute case. We became a family.
We became one.
And that is how we still stand today. I'm going to give over to Karin now so
that she can talk about the emotional aspects.
Both of us, we have also faced personal challenges.
(35:53):
Very sad situations on a personal level as well.
But through it all, we just had to just go on and do what we were mandated to
do, which is help our fellow people, our community.
We created a community when we moved into that space there.
(36:18):
Yeah. Yeah, so just echoing some more of the emotions and the sentiment that
was brought through by Fahmida,
you know, the occupation consists of mainly women, single women-led households.
(36:40):
And being one of those single women-led households, it really wasn't easy.
To navigate our way through this process of occupying.
But through it all, and I think this
(37:02):
is where we reach the point that we say enough is enough because there was that
point in time that we then saw the occupation as the only housing opportunity.
As a movement fighting for people's dignity, not our own dignity only,
(37:26):
we were fighting for people's dignity.
As women, we have pushed through these seven years and built a community.
And right now, we are even imagining and dreaming about what the future of this
(37:51):
space or this community holds for each and every person who lives there.
And so, yes, it is emotional because it's our lived experience.
It's our lived experience as women. We live in a democratic country,
in a democratic dispensation, where women's rights should be equal to everyone else's rights.
(38:14):
But yet, when you look at the amount of people that are homeless,
when you look at the amount of people who are destitute, it would be women and their families.
When you look at the amount of people occupying and fighting for their dignity,
it is women who are at the forefront of fighting for people's dignity.
(38:35):
Yet, we still have a state that fails and does not recognize the rights of women.
And hence, I think going to go and do activism in health equity.
And people's social well-being and fighting for our dignity has been so important
(38:59):
for myself personally because of this lived experience.
And it's things that we face on a daily basis.
So it's not the two of us sitting here telling some fairy tale or some story.
We will not even try and romanticize what occupations are about.
(39:20):
But this is the hard labour, the labour of women and men fighting for dignity,
fighting to have a roof over their families' heads.
It is the hard labour that went into this occupation.
And it is prone to make us emotional.
(39:41):
It is prone that we would take it
personal because to us we say that
where people live where we live matters
we want to be close to the social opportunities
and amenities and economic opportunities of our city we have the right to that
we are citizens of Cape Town and we do have the right to our dignity we do have
(40:07):
the right to be close to economic and social social opportunities.
I mean, when I'm thinking back to COVID-19 and how we had to navigate our way
through COVID, living in a building that's occupied with more than a thousand
people and people living so close to one another,
we learned quite a lot during COVID. We learned from our experiences.
(40:31):
And the one thing that really still today stands out for me was,
and it's a lesson that we learned during COVID.
And as a woman, I take this lesson very seriously and I do apply it to how I
lead in the occupation itself and how I lead in the movement.
And that is that when COVID-19 started globally, the UN Rapporteur for Housing
(40:59):
distinctly made a statement to say that.
The right to access housing or adequate housing.
If people do not have that right during a pandemic, you are just as good as being dead.
Dead and buried. And it is at that juncture that we also then saw really the
(41:21):
strong need to have a home.
The strong need to have a roof over our heads and to fight and defend this roof over our heads.
And so we do so also by resisting.
Any form of eviction or displacement.
And we also support tenants who don't live in the occupation,
(41:43):
tenants who live in the communities, the surrounding communities and in the inner city.
We support them when they are going through an eviction or when they are being displaced.
And the kind of support that we render to them is
to have what we call people's assemblies or advice assemblies where we get together
(42:05):
with tenants and occupiers and together we actually teach one another what the
law says about evictions and we also teach one another our rights.
So it's an each one teach one process and we see there also how people's power
is more important than those people who are in power.
(42:28):
And we also go and we monitor the courts. We monitor how the courts actually allow for evictions.
But we also know that in our constitution, it's cited that magistrates or judges
do have an inquisitorial duty toward tenants or towards evictees.
(42:50):
And so that inquisitorial duty is to make sure that the person is provided with
alternative accommodation.
Where this alternative accommodation should be is another story.
And so that is the unjust part of things.
But we have the right to hold judges to account or the judicial system to account
(43:17):
for rendering people homeless according to our constitution.
No one should be rendered homeless. And so those are some of the activities
or campaigns that we have also embarked on from the very beginning of our movement,
was to say that we are a movement fighting for affordable housing in well-located areas,
(43:42):
close to economic and social opportunities, and resisting unjust evictions and displacement.
And so those would be the two values that makes up our movement Reclaim the City.
And Reclaim the City are the movement who has gone and occupied abandoned state buildings.
(44:10):
So there's more than one reclaimed city occupation. There is the Sisigu house,
which is the space that we live in.
But then there's also the Amatkasrada house on the waterfront,
on prime property, which was an old nurse's home, that also has been occupied by reclaimed city.
(44:32):
City and that is what makes up
this movement of the landless and of
the homeless resisting being pushed out of our city thank you and when it comes
to city goal house i just i'm just finishing quick on that um on this point
because my emotions really get triggered when we speak about what does it mean for us.
(44:58):
So what does it mean for Karen, for example, after almost seven years living
in an occupation, leading in an occupation, leading in a movement, fighting for.
Housing or fighting to have roof over one's head,
fighting for our dignity, community fighting for our
(45:18):
citizenship because as citizens
we do have the right to engage and
to be engaged with and and
as communities and so so what does
it mean for Karin what it means for me is
that there is this
building this specific building that we have
(45:40):
occupied has now become our hope and that we will defend this space and we will
also push and campaign for affordable housing on this space and in this space.
And we do so with our internal structures.
(46:02):
As Fahmida had already pointed out, we do have internal structures.
And on many of these internal structures, it is led by us as women.
And we pursue it.
But we don't only just pursue what we are doing. We are also building a movement.
We are building a movement of women. We are building a movement of young people.
(46:24):
And we are also building people's hope.
We are building the hope of those who have been failed and those who have been let down by the state.
And that is our elderly people who may die waiting for housing.
Many have died waiting for housing and it cannot be that way and one thing that
(46:48):
we always do say in ending is.
We cannot live in a housing waiting
list or database. We need to live in homes because we need to live.
And so everything about living in a space matters to us.
But where that space is particularly does matter to us.
(47:10):
And who we are also matters.
Nothing about us without us.
That is what we always say. For me, personally, and on the political side,
you know, when we moved into this space, we were labeled so many things.
We were labeled hapless criminals.
(47:33):
We were labeled drug headless. We were labeled alcohol sellers.
We were labeled, you name it, we were labeled all of that. Yet we want to get
away from this narrative.
But the government is not giving, they're not changing their minds about that.
(47:57):
Because we have even invited them on several occasions to come and see how we
live, how we live in that space that we created into our homes. but they don't want to.
They're not interested because they don't want to see a success story.
They don't want to see that. They want to see destruction.
(48:20):
That is what they want to see. So for me, political is really personal.
And where people love should matter. And I'm going to end off with that.
Thank you, Karin and Fagmida, for everything that you have shared throughout this episode.
(48:41):
I would like to ask one or two more questions to leave us off.
Throughout this episode, you've described what we call non-growing knowing.
Living in this uncertainty and still pushing forward with your people.
As i sit here in new york city we have
(49:02):
a housing crisis we have a what we're
calling a migrant crisis the more and
more people i speak to in the states and europe and different places
all over the world there's this term the
housing crisis the housing crisis we see
buildings being built every day but somehow no one
has anywhere to live what is
(49:23):
a message of of of that you
could give to other people around the world that are also fighting that are
also because you know you you two have shown so much resilience so much urgency
fighting through this major struggle of both mental and physical what is some
encouraging messages that you can give to other,
(49:44):
revolutionaries around the world that may want to work in this field of land
housing and health of equity or maybe other injustices that they're dealing with?
I think I can go first on this one. Don't give up. Don't give up.
I want to say that first and foremost.
You know, with this housing struggle,
(50:07):
you know, it really gets to a point where I'm asking,
asking why should we fight for
something that is supposed to be constitutionally due to us, number one.
(50:27):
Our parents and parents and parents and grandparents have been fighting the same struggle.
Why do we need to fight for something that is so relatively important for you as a person?
Why do we still... Our fight is like a rubber. It's a never-ending fight.
(50:54):
Our parents have fought. We are fighting now what our children also fight,
with something as simple as a roof over our heads.
And we are not asking here for mansions. We're not asking for palaces.
We are simply asking for a place to call home.
(51:16):
Simple. Why do we have to fight? But I want to encourage others.
The fight is far from over.
But I want to say this, don't give up. I know people out there has long gone
given up hope of being put into a space where they can go home.
(51:41):
We felt sort of like that at some point too, even with our court case.
We felt like that when we lost our court case.
But all is not lost.
That is what I want to say. All is not lost.
Even though it may seem that there's no light at the end of the tunnel,
(52:03):
some light is going to shine up there.
So don't give up hope and don't give up fighting for what is constitutionally your right.
Yeah, I mean, despite, so this is a global thing, right?
(52:23):
Absolutely. And then despite us and many other activist movements and communities
and even individual struggles to have a home, it's about having a home.
So despite all of that, despite our efforts,
right, the states have not been actors in trying to assist and support communities.
(52:54):
That is the common picture that I grasp from all of this.
And so my question in ending and my statement in ending here to encourage others
who are facing the same battle, It's a battle and it's a struggle for dignity,
(53:15):
is that who then are we waiting for?
And the answer to that is very simple, since there are no state actors supporting us.
I would say to everyone out there who feels that as if they cannot move forward with their struggle.
(53:36):
I want to say that the struggle continues and we are the ones that we have been waiting for.
We are the solution and not the problem.
We are the ones that we have been waiting. Aluta, continue up.
The struggle continues.
(53:58):
Don't give up. Absolutely. And if people would like to learn more about you two,
learn more about your work, learn more about the political movements and community
movements in South Africa that are fighting against land housing and health equity,
where could people go to find out a little bit more about you two and more about Sisi Go Health? health?
(54:19):
Reclaim the city.ca.za. So they could go on to Reclaim the City's website,
which is Reclaim the City, co.za, or alternatively,
they could email Reclaim the City at Reclaim the City.01.org.za.
(54:44):
Yes, yes. And we're going to have that in the description section for you,
for anyone that would like to stay in contact and learn about the amazing work going on in Cape Town.
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