Another Side of Midnight With Lionel -Obsession with Organized Crime

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The other side of Midnight with Linyl entertaining and informative
on the Red Apple Podcast network.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
Albody line the video, and this is another side of midnight.
Eight hundred eight four eight two nine two two two.
Let me get this right, eight hundred and eight four
eight nine two two two to as many as many.
And why we have eight hundred numbers anymore? I have
no idea surplicage. Indeed, my friends, welcome to the sets. Well,

(01:01):
I guess this is Sunday version, the early morning version
of this weekend edition of ours. I wanted to discuss
something which I find fascinating. I think I've told you
this before. I love human behavior, I swear to you.
I look around and I think, what in the heck
is this? What is what? What?

Speaker 3 (01:23):
What?

Speaker 2 (01:24):
Just any kind of human behavior, especially when there were
groups of people anything? I love it? I just I
love it. Yesterday my wife and I went, we happened
to a wonderful place called Ort Farms. We went to
a couple of it's it's it's the Jersey. It's tis
the season to pick up our corn. I buy corn

(01:47):
by the by the case. I just there's nothing like it. Also,
Jersey tomatoes in my life. But this place, Ort Farm,
is very nice. It's in Long Valley, New Jersey, and
they have a petting zoo and kids are playing and
they have this these little mechanisms you can hit and

(02:08):
make noise. And I just sat and just watched and
just observed, because I think human behaviors, especially when children
are allowed to be children, where there's this interaction, where
there's this thing called the country and sunflowers, we just
act differently, sometimes good, sometimes weird, as is the case

(02:31):
of tattoos. I will never understand tattoos as long as
I live, especially the fact that so many people are
getting these hideous sleeves of horror with some lead paint ache. Anyway,
I digress. But something I like to discuss is the
way we handle death. And I want to discuss something

(02:52):
with you called auto mourn. And there's a lot. There's
more to this story than you could imagine yesterday. As
you know, maybe maybe you knew this, maybe you didn't
know this, But there was as a fellow by They
were vincetent pastory or pastor. He played the beloved salvatory

(03:15):
big let's call him big Puss, all right. I don't
want to I even though I know I'm saying it correctly,
my natural and even that might have been in correct,
but my natural alarms go off. But let's call him Woozy,
Big Woozy, you know what I'm talking about, Bumpin' Sierro.
He played the soprano's hit. He died at the age

(03:38):
of eighty. His death was confirmed yesterday. He was found
at his City Island, New York home after friends had
been able to reach him. His death was reported to
be from natural causes. And the first part about me
always says, well, we'll see about that. It's just my

(03:59):
natural suspicion for anything involving people who are of note
and the like. And there's so much to talk about.
There's the phenomenon of the sopranos and how it was
the last time that we had appointment TV. And also
something perhaps that maybe you might not think about when

(04:19):
you are an actor in the old days, that there
was something wrong with you. Your eye was a bit of skew,
you had a funny pronunciation. In fact, after the decline
or the cessation of silent movies, a lot of these
great actors and actresses had no voice or had the

(04:40):
thick Eastern European accents, and they weren't too appropriate. But
if there was something wrong with you, not wrong, something different,
normally it would be a disqualifier. Well, you know, I
could not believe the number of atures the characters on

(05:01):
the Sopranos had a distinctive sibilant or lisp like speech,
although technically in most of the accidents were voices rather
than true lisps. But if you want to see, because
I'm I, I can't help but listen to how people speak, mouths,

(05:25):
tongue thrusting, even the the Gathelian you know from from Fromana,
you know, Tha Gonzalez, but the the not the excuse me,
I don't want to say the worst, but one of
the most pronounced was the FBI agent Skip Lipari. This

(05:50):
was uh Woosey's a handler as it were played by
Lewis Lombardi. His speech was the most pronounced lisp barnun
and when he and Woosy I'm sorry, I don't want

(06:12):
to alarm anybody spoke together, it was incredible. I mean
it was incredible. Johnny Sack, that actor or that that
particular character also huge. I'm sorry I shouldn't say that.
Not a huge list but pronounced part man. I mean
to make it sound like it's negative. Tony soprano, James
Gandloafini had this shuh, he had this sh kind of

(06:36):
an impediment of swords. And then there was of course
Pauly Walnuts, who also had a cut of very distate,
high nasal but a very interesting sibilance and tongue thrust.
So I just that that just I thought was so
interesting to have so many actors normally disqualifiers, normally disqualifiers,

(07:00):
and would think from this, but you know that from
nineteen ninety nine this kills me. But the Sopranos from
nineteen ninety nine January to June of two thousand and seven,
that was it, just eight years? And did you know
a couple of things about this and we'll get into
this notion about this particular death in the moment. Did

(07:21):
you know? I'm sure you did, But did you know
that the Sopranos is probably more how do I say this,
probably more popular today than it was then by virtue
of Internet, YouTube and others, and a lot of gen
Zers are the like are finding that it was so

(07:45):
interesting because they can't believe this was ever on quote TV,
and I granted it was cable, but it was they
couldn't believe it where they would say things that would
be overtly racist or or crude or violent, and it
was accepted. Not only that, it was probably the last

(08:07):
time that we had true, actual, true appointment TV. Maybe
maybe the last time there's an incredible story. It's just
fascinated me. Sunday nights, everybody the theme song, the serialization,
and they talk about why was it so good? Why

(08:28):
was it not? It was fascinating. But one of the
biggest questions I had, and maybe you can answer this
is number one. Why is it that we have always
loved since the beginning of time? Bad people?

Speaker 4 (08:47):
Why?

Speaker 2 (08:47):
Why mobsters? None of these people were good people? None,
Well people forget it is that Tony Soprano was basically,
I don't use the word psychopath, but a treacherous, not
a good person. These people weren't smart, they weren't funny,
they weren't particularly talented. They were brutal and ruthless and

(09:12):
just nothing remotely redeeming.

Speaker 5 (09:18):
But we loved them.

Speaker 2 (09:20):
And people liked them. Why why there wasn't one character
if you think about it, that you say, you know
what I'd really like, I mean, deep down inside that,
how do I say this somebody who wasn't just detestable.
And the other issue is the history of organized crime

(09:44):
movies changed in nineteen seventy two with The Godfather. Prior
to that, anybody who was involved in or any kind
of movie, any kind of depiction of organized crime, specifically
the mafia as they say, or the LCN you want
to whatever you want to call it, all of that,
all of that was the viewpoint from the guy on

(10:07):
the corner, from the thug, from the guy who was
the actual how do I say this, the person on
the corner, on the level of the of the street thug,
not the operational hierarchy. That changed everything. Godfather changed everything.
In fact, people said, I suggested, not only did law

(10:31):
enforcement say this, but people in the restaurants noticed this,
but that the dress changed. People changed. Everything changed drastically
after that movie. And today there's this absolute love affair,
there's this plethora. Godfather was great, Godfather Too was porphic,

(10:52):
Godfather III was an embarrassment, then Goodfellas too, sort of
kind of different but extremely critical movies in the pantheon.
When you see organized crime, you normally mean me. You
you mean, uh, you know Italian organized crime. So here

(11:12):
is the question which I find so fascinating. And maybe
you have as well. Maybe you do, maybe you don't.
I don't know, but I won't tell you this much.
What is it about bad people that that incites you
so much? There are so many of these I don
won't necessarily mention them, but a lot of YouTube titles

(11:36):
people who used to be in the mob. Michael Franzis,
by the way, Sonny Franzis, or Franzi if nobody ever
pronounces the name correctly, but me, Michael Franzis, uh, Sammy
the Bowl, others. They first started this thing, and now
Franzis has transcended that. And they invariably will say the

(11:58):
same stories over and over, and then you have this
absolute they came out of the woodwork. There's so many
of these, lesser known but I mean hyper stylized, almost
prototypical examples of you know, mobsters explaining basically telling me

(12:25):
if I hear the same Jimmy the gent Burke story
one more time, or Roy DeMeo or the Gemini Lounge,
I mean, it's the same. A lot of them just
repeat the same things. But here is the story. What
is the reason for this fascination? Why do we like this?
If the Sopranos were about flower arranging or somebody who

(12:51):
owns a gas station, nobody would care. Honorable people working
at a gas station, nobody cares about that. But the
idea that there was sex and drugs and mayhem, and
more importantly, this is the most important. This is something
called auto morn auto moren is when people pretend that
every single death online in the entertainment business in particular

(13:14):
crushes them, affects them in ways that they can't even explain.
They can't explicate, they're so hurt and they have to post. Especially.
I have a friend of mine who has a picture
of everybody who has ever lived, and as soon as
that person dies, there's a picture on Facebook or Instagram

(13:35):
of this person kind of in the end a biz
with this person who died. Tony Bennett or I'm sure
you know Vincent Pastor to say, look at me, I
knew them, I'm somebody, I'm important. Look see I stood

(13:56):
next to them. Look he's got his arm on me.
See look see this, See I knew them. It's okay,
But that of course is a power of Facebook where
we have to chronicle every single thing that we do.
And finally, finally, what was, in your humble opinion, the

(14:19):
greatest gangster Mob whatever you want to call it movie?
And why? What were the lesser knowns? And let's discuss this.
What is it? What is what is honest to God?
What is the story the true story as to why
we from an entertainment medium? Why do we find people

(14:43):
who are despicable interesting? Why do women marry Richard ramiros
Or one two or the Menindez brothers. Why do people
Ted Bundy was married? I believe yes? Why is it
serial killers? Let us delve into this aspect of the
dark side of human behavior? Eight hundred eight four eight

(15:04):
nine two two. This is align up with you on
Another side of Midnight.

Speaker 6 (16:00):
Sat.

Speaker 1 (17:14):
The Other side of Midnight with Linel, entertaining and informative
on the Red Apple podcast network.

Speaker 2 (17:43):
Wasn't that great? Wasn't that just a great I'm telling
you that was such a great, great, great show. I
watch it and it's better and better as it marinates.
It's James Gandolfini album. A real mess towards the end,
but a great actor. The whole ensemble was to ripping.

(18:05):
The whole thing worked. Not not every character was to
riff figure, not every moment, but but I you know,
when when David Chase would talk about the Sopranos, he
always gave this word, it's about filmily, it's not about family.
It's about a bunch of stories. Nobody cared about about
a j or meadow and you know whether the she

(18:28):
has an African American boyfriend. Nobody cares about that. They
want to see shooting and death and treachery. And that's
what it's about. The question is why, though, why? I mean,
it's just interesting. I am fascinated and have been by
serial killers. I loathed these people, detest them. Nothing at

(18:50):
all funny about them or interesting. But it's fascinating, fascinating
in many respects because of the fact of the of
the of the darkness, the depth, the fact they should
do a show about radio stations. It would be so
horrible people wouldn't even believe it happened. Let's go, let's

(19:11):
go to the phones and what was your In my
very humble opinion, I think the best movie in my lifetime,
in my generation was The Godfather. Godfather One just in
terms of the cinema, the story, everything, the lighting. It
changed everything. Godfather iiO equally is interesting, not the same,

(19:34):
but on a different level, a different level. Godfather three
was an abortion. It was so horrid and goodfullas of
course wonderful, and also was interesting about how stories veer.
There's a book called The Godfather Companion by Peter Biskyn
that have a copy of it might be out of print,

(19:56):
and the author looked at the book by Mario Poozle,
which is a the book, the screenplay and the movie,
and how there were inconsistencies, how things are left out
and the Godfather. For example, the character that was really

(20:16):
just not even mentioned was Luca Browsie, Oh my god.
In the book he was just I mean, he was
just evil, played by Lenny Montana. Ostensibly he was the
Zebra Kid. He was professional wrestler himself, purportedly a hit
or a button man himself who got his badge straightened out.

(20:39):
From what we hear, goodfellas interesting to I knew some
how do I say this some members of that particular
story perhaps tangentially and a lot of it was not correct.
It was, but it doesn't matter. It's not a documentary.

(21:01):
But what were the great stories? And why is it
that I'm telling you the story which I will never
How do I say this? What Hollywood has yet to
really explore was the West Side where I am here
in Hell's Kitchen, the westiest state of grace is with

(21:22):
Sean Penn and uh Sean Penn. Oh and Gary Omen
was superb, absolutely superb. And that was another aspect, another
part it's just never. I don't know why we don't.

(21:43):
It doesn't catch it. It's the richest characters of them all.
And I know so many people and many of them
think died, but who live in where in this area
where they all remember this? And each of these people despicable, fear, psychopathic,
but fascinating. And the question is why is this forbidden fruit?

(22:07):
Is it the outlaw story? Let's go to the phone show.
He eight hundred and eight four eight nine two two
two Loretta in Brooklyn, You're on another side of midnight
with Lionel.

Speaker 7 (22:17):
Good morning, Lionel.

Speaker 2 (22:19):
Whyta fine?

Speaker 7 (22:22):
That's good to know. I remember the Black Hand movie.
It was a black and white movie on TV. Ernest
borgnine was a character actor, but he played a cop
trying to Infiltrate the Mob.

Speaker 2 (22:38):
Is this about Petrosino? This isn't about Petrosino, is it.

Speaker 7 (22:43):
I don't remember that name. I just know the movie.
The name of the movie was a Black Hand, and
that's the first mob movie I remember because it was
in black and white. We had black and white TV
and Spog nine was playing the cop infiltrating the Mob.

(23:05):
And whenever they made a hit, they signed it with
the imprint of a black Hand.

Speaker 2 (23:10):
Well that's interesting, that's I'm looking right now. The original
one of the Black Hands was from nineteen fifty. We
see the one You're Born. This is with Gene Kelly
of all people, and then oh, here we go. He
did not star in The Black Hand, but he famously
played real life police lieutenant. Oh yeah, Joseph Petrosino. I

(23:32):
was right in in the movie Pay or Die, it
was called nineteen sixty where he paid played Joseph Petrosino.
This was the famous New York City cop who went
to Sicily and was killed. And the Black Hand or
Lamado Neiro where these were the original extortionists in Sicily

(23:56):
who came to this country. And believe it or not,
it was the the the Mob, the Mafia, so to speak,
who helped a recent newcomers, for example Don Finucci who
was in the Godfather, he was black hand and they
would leave this imprint of the black hand for either

(24:21):
for Pizzo, for extortion. So it wasn't the movie, but
it was close enough.

Speaker 7 (24:25):
And called himself a guinea pig because he was Italian
and cops were known as pigs. And he said, I'll
be I'll be the guinea pig.

Speaker 2 (24:36):
I understand that. And you know the story behind Petrosino.
In fact, I believe in New York there was still
there was a either a park or something that was
named after him. I thank you for your call. It's
a it's a it's an interesting story, especially how the
real story, the real history of organized crime itself, which

(24:58):
is very interesting. How the three aspects, the three demographics
of organized crime, the Sicilians, the Irish and Jews, and
when they came to this country, and what do you
think they all had in common? If you think about this,
all of them Sicilians, not Italians, Sicilians, Irish, Jews knew

(25:23):
what governmental oppression was. The feudal land barons that were
kept down. They didn't have anybody to go to nobody
to look after, nobody to handle their particular beefs, their
problems in organized crime. There wasn't one who organized crime
then per se. But when it came to this country

(25:43):
it changed. It's funny. The Jews were the first ones
to leave that. There was this book called Tough Jews.
It's great. From a blue culture to a garage Shapiro
to Oh, there's so many really interesting characters. Again not
lauding them as good people, but interesting. They pretty much

(26:04):
got out of the biz as soon as possible, followed
by the Irish who went into the police work and
government and various you know, political groups. And the last
to stay in were the Sicilians. And the reason, supposedly
the reason is again because Sicily, by virtue of its nature,

(26:27):
had been taken over. It had been it had been
ravaged and conquered by everyone from the Carthaginians, the Phoenicians,
the French. In fact that Canadians would have probably gone there,
and theoretically Joe Bonano in his book Man of Honor

(26:49):
refers to this story. It's a tad apocryphal, but there's
a story that everybody learns of the hatred of the
of Sicily. Of Sicilians, but also the mafia then for
the French, and there's all these little anecdotes. One of

(27:10):
them was that during the war they would sometimes hold
up a chickpee and it's pronounced chechi ceci, but French
could not pronounce that, so they would hold this out
and see what is this, and if somebody were to
mispronounce it, there's ah, you're a French dude, and they
would kill you on site. A tad harsh, to be sure,

(27:33):
but the story is in the fourteenth fifteenth century, you
can always embellish you to an extent. A young girl
was savaged, raped, what have you, by a French Sicilian
girl was attacked sexually abused by a French officer or
soldier or something along those lines. They were ready to explode.

(27:57):
And the story also goes that the lieutenant who did
this slapped the father who tried to address this and
seek honor. Anyway, the story goes again, most apocryphal went crazy.
They say we're going to fight back, and they had placards,
they had phrases, they had this this this chant the

(28:17):
shibbleth of the time, and it was morte a la francia.
It m a f A I A m A f
I A what am I M A f I A morte?
And it means death to France is Italy's cry, and
that became so they say the word mafia. Well not really,

(28:43):
because there was another word in mafioso, which meant strong, brave.
There was an Arab component because there's so much if
you if you look at the infiltration, the influence of
every conceivable uh A demographic and ethnicity and culture on Sicily,
it's wild, the African, the Middle East. In fact, remember

(29:06):
the scene from was The True Crimes, the one scene
between Dennis Hopper and Christopher Walking. Remember I can't go
through it now, but it's very interesting and anyway, a
lot of this is there's a kernel of truth in it.
What's even more interesting is when you look at the

(29:30):
connection between our government and these people. In other word,
mafia really didn't it wasn't really a big It's not
a big word here in Sicily, Oh yeah, absolutely, but
not here. It's not an American term. And after post
World War two he had named like a Cologuro, Don

(29:51):
Vizzini and Cassio Ferro and all these guys who were
pretty rough characters, but but and this is also interesting,
and this has a perfect analog to what we saw
in Cuba. At the time, the mafia had an absolute
detestation for Mussolini, and Mussolini's number one, the interrogator, the

(30:21):
torturer in chief, was more and this guy was he
would just I mean torture and basically caused a lot
of the Mafiosi to leave to fleet. And they always
wanted to come back. They always either to flee or
to become neutralized. Well, world War two comes along, let's

(30:43):
make a deal. Look at Cuba. Look what happened. You
have You have Battista, who was the friend the friend
of everybody from Mayo Lansky to you name it. Even
Buggsy Siegull at the time says, are you sure about this?
You know, we don't know these people. Oh what are

(31:04):
you talking about? We own Cuban. Well you may owe
him now and lo and behold what comes up later on.
That's right Castro and what was the problem that the
mafia had. Of course Castro and anything they could do
to remove Gastro they would do. So they became part
and parcel with oss later Cia Operation Mongoose. It all

(31:28):
works together. It's fascinating Operation Gladio. Remember one thing, there
was some there were some folks in the organized crime business,
Vito Gentlemens who were great patriots, absolutely loved this country.
Many served in World War two. Uh, and we're believe
it or not, staunch. I don't want to say republican

(31:52):
because that's not the term, but very very patriotic. And
during World War two they said, we know sicily we
can help you. But here's the deal. After this was done.
After this was done, the idea was that, well, what
do we get. We will allow you to maintain your positions.

(32:12):
So the United States government, theoretically, it is believed, helped
install these very people back into into the power that
they enjoyed prior to Mussolini. Oh, it's it is. It
is so interesting the way the government remember the Normandy
Remember the ship that was overtured, that that that capsize

(32:34):
on the West side. They thought it was saboteurs. It
wasn't Joe Sachs Lenza who ran the the The docs
met with Mayor Lansky and then Lucky Luciano who was
in Dana Moore at the time, and they made a
deal with him. They said, listen, if you can help
us get to the bottom of this. It was it
wasn't sabotage at all, but they didn't want them to
think this. So Lucky Luciano says, great, I'll help you,

(32:56):
and we supposedly fixed this. Then when he expected a
part and they said, oh no, no, we're just gonna
we're going to exile you. We're going to deport you
to Castella Marde and he goes, oh no, so he
had to leave. He thought it was a deal. It
was Dewey who double crossed them. Oh it's it is.
The level of stories are so fascinating and one of

(33:20):
the one of the last aspects. You cannot talk about
the JFK assassination without understanding the roles of people like
Santa Trafficanti and uh and Carlos Marcello and others. It
was a different world than it was so powerful. You
know that Frank Costello, nobody knew who he was, Francesco Castilia.

(33:43):
They didn't. They thought he was Irish Costello. He was
a he was they loved him in society. He was
just this this great man and they didn't know. This
is prior to Key Folver, prior to the McLellan Commission,
and with Jane go Hooper Jaio Hoover had no interest
whatsoever whatsoever in explaining what was happening. In fact, many

(34:05):
people believe that particular story that Roy Kohne, who they
say was at the bottom of this, supposedly has stories
or pictures of Jajegar Hoover either an address or some
compromising position, and they believe later on that somehow this
was the this was the trump card, pardon the expression

(34:26):
that people had. And so when organized crime came along,
Frank Costello also, by the way, understood that Hoover was
basically a degenerate gambler along with his girlfriend Clyde Tolsen,
and he give him tips on how to beds or whatever.
So when it came to doing an expose on American
organized crime, how can Jaego Hoover say, yes, we have

(34:49):
a problem in this country organized crime. Excuse me, you're
the head of you're the national police chief, so to speak.
Oh so instead he said, well, forget that. It's communism. Yeah,
that's it. Communism, that's the problem. So it's it's so fascinating,
it's I mean, it's history, it's it didn't really hit

(35:13):
the mythic because remember, prior to Keith Ober, probably prior
to the Mcleonic Commission, nobody knew anything about this. Nobody
knew who these people were. Then later then the Godfather came,
Joe Colombo. It goes on and on, and it is
so interesting and it created kind of its old own folklore.

(35:34):
Let me tell you, in our country, we have certain
certain I'll call it a folklore to an extent. Though
you you can argue all day long whether organized crime
is still big, but we have the American cowboy, We've
got the biker, you know, the easy rider type, and

(35:54):
we have the mobster. And this is something that is
part of our or it's been, it's been a part
of our our love. Nothing captures nothing captures us. And
remember it started with the Godfather. It started with It
was the first time you showed or they tried to

(36:15):
show the upper echelons of it, not the street level,
but the upper echelons, who was in charge the stories behind.
And one thing about the Godfather also very very little cussing,
very minimal diminimus nudity. There was the Apollonia scene and
Godfather won. I think I'm not going to tell you
the word, but they really didn't. How do I say this,

(36:39):
They did not use an It really was I think
pretty mild. By the way, one of the best pieces
of trick photography ever was when Luca Rozzi Lenny Montana
was stabbed in the hand at the Edison Hotel and
it's it's I mean, it's it's so interesting. One of

(37:00):
the best movies. Do you know about the interesting interesting
fact that when when Francis Ford Coppola he went through Hell,
Charlie Bluehorn and Bob Evans, these people from Paramount, they
were they were horrible. They wanted Robert Redford and Anthony
Quinn and they said no. And then when they showed
him Michael Albacino, they said, you're crazy. He's a midget.

(37:24):
You're nuts. So when they showed him the first dailies,
it was his first scene with Bono Sera, remember from
the The Mamas. And by the way, uh, Marlon Brando
was doing Frank Costello's voice theoretically, but they didn't know
what this was. And the line was, what did you

(37:45):
like this with a cigarette lighter? What is this? They
never they never saw this before, and Brando had to
guarantee he was he was not exactly the famous Brando
he was later on. In any event, Francis Ford Coppola realized,
I'm done with this. I'm through. I mean, it's gonna

(38:07):
be tomorrow. They're gonna just canvas and just shut it down.
So they cut the Salazzo scene with Alan Terry and
Sterling Hayden as another character. When they saw that this
is the paramount as it goes, you got it. You're
in because what you saw is what al Pacino did

(38:30):
his character. You saw him go dark, because at first
it was kind of like a buoyant, kind of a happy,
kind of an innocent sort of he was really the
he was really the powerhouse. But you saw him go dark,
and he was never he never came back. It is

(38:50):
so interesting.

Speaker 8 (38:51):
It is so.

Speaker 2 (38:53):
And I'm not saying this just to create false senses
of complexity, but it's truly that great.

Speaker 4 (39:00):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
Let's go to Let's go to Paul in Connecticut. Paul,
you're on another side of Midnight with Lionel.

Speaker 4 (39:07):
Well, good morning, Linels. When I was young, I got
a tour of the FBI building with my dad and
I was hooked after the g man came out with
a with a machine gun and opened up his suitcase.
That took it out of there, and uh his machine gun.
One of my favorite movies is al Pacino and uh oh,
I'm trying to think of the name right now. Oh,

(39:31):
that would help. Where he's in. He's in Miami as
an undercover agent Donnie Brasco.

Speaker 2 (39:38):
Yeah, that was so That was a Joe of Stone book.
There was so much that was wrong with that book,
so much.

Speaker 4 (39:48):
I didn't read the book. But why it reminds me
of the Islands and the Bahamas. You know, they have
the first guys down there.

Speaker 2 (39:57):
By the way that it wasn't really Miami, a lot
of it in Tampa and Tampa area at the time,
and most of it Donny Brascal was here. There's no islands.
I don't know what you're talking about with that. You
should read the book.

Speaker 9 (40:07):
Did you ever read the book?

Speaker 4 (40:08):
The Godbob Guys down there? Makes me think of a
bottle of Don Perry on nineteen seventy orfore.

Speaker 2 (40:15):
Hey, Paul, thank you so much, my friend. I love this.
I'm trying to make a I think a critical boy.
You're number one. Please read the book. Please read the book.
Have you read The Godfather it's incredible. It's one of
the best books ever. And by the way, editorial license
is one thing. Joe Pistone, by the way, who played

(40:37):
Donnie Rascal his you know what is signed for him
to befriend Sonny Black and to know they were going
to kill him. You knew, he knew. In fact, they
found Sonny Black with his hands cut off, indicating you
introduced him. You extended your hand to this. There's a

(41:00):
book by a friend of mine, Jack Garcia, who infiltrated
this as well. That that book, I think it is.
And by the way, Pistone has played that one with
the glasses. I mean, he milked that baby for all
its work. We're still seeing, we're still listening to him.

(41:21):
But read the book and the books are very interesting.
Same thing with wise guy Nick Poledgie. This story is not.
I could tell you some stories behind the scenes, which
I think are even more interesting. Pete on Staten Island,
you're on another side of midnight with.

Speaker 10 (41:37):
Lionel High Lionel. You know that movie Payer Die in
nineteen sixty with Ernest Oemin Yes played the part and.

Speaker 2 (41:51):
Are you underwater? I can't hear you?

Speaker 10 (41:54):
Okay? Is it better now?

Speaker 11 (41:59):
Mike Cousin played sal Almeta. He played protective with uh
Ernest Boulg nine. He's the guy that was in the
UH the UH dry cleaners and he shot the guy
because he called them Fatso that was like one of
the biggest parts in the movie. And my cousin he

(42:19):
died in an auto accident a track. The trailer tipped
over onto a p his Volksweg and he was crushing.

Speaker 2 (42:28):
That's interesting how we're very into this the life and
times of your of your cousin. It's interesting. Hey, Pete,
I thank you so much, my friend. Please call me again.
Tom and Chicago. You're on another side of Midnight with Lionel.

Speaker 3 (42:40):
Yeah, go on, Linel, good sir, all right.

Speaker 12 (42:45):
I like UH people. I think I think people are
fascinated with uh these kind of stories of the dark side,
because people living a normal, normal life is boring. You know,
these guys ain't worried about now, worried about four one.

Speaker 3 (43:01):
K on the street.

Speaker 12 (43:05):
They're doing strange things, killing people with no consequences and
all that. We love it.

Speaker 2 (43:12):
So wait a minute, what about a story about just
a serial killer. It's not the same. There's nothing romantic
about that. There's nothing. I mean, you can see a
story about you know, Ted Bundy. And also sometimes there
are some black ansters who I think in some respects
you know, Bumpy what's his name or what I mean,
those are very interesting too. But and Irish mob stories,

(43:37):
there's something about Italian mob stories. What is this. Explain
to me how a woman can fall in love with
the guy on death row who's a murderer.

Speaker 12 (43:47):
Explain that, Well, first of all, she's a woman. He
can't help explain them. And uh, these guys, these these
women be like like you say, bikers, drug dealers, Oh
they bad guy and still love them.

Speaker 9 (44:03):
Well look at you.

Speaker 12 (44:05):
Yeah, yeah. What I'm talking about here is you you
ain't gonna go with a hooker and say, I'm Marya.
You know, the normal person.

Speaker 2 (44:13):
You'd be surprised today. You'd be surprised today, and they
may not be called a hooker person.

Speaker 12 (44:21):
Yeah, that's the that's the that's the influence of these
movies though, that's the influence.

Speaker 2 (44:28):
Of these But it goes back even it goes back
even more when we had the Great Train Robbery and
McCain has been a Billy the Kid, and and Bonnie
and Clyde and uh, John Dillinger, And you know this
is there's something I I think, First of all, it's
interesting number one. Number two, the difference between fame and

(44:52):
infamy are fleeting. It's just no fame, uh does not
really mean good. Inf he doesn't necessarily mean bad. I
don't think we can we can tell one from the other.
But it's but it also tells us go ahead, sir.

Speaker 12 (45:08):
Off be in Chicago. Al Capone, you know, is still
like crazy.

Speaker 3 (45:14):
You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 12 (45:14):
You like, he murdered people. He did all these things
that people still fascinated. They got tours, but you know
what he did.

Speaker 2 (45:20):
He murdered people that were in the in the business,
so to speak. He opened up soup kitchens. He was
by the way, he wasn't the first. He wasn't the
first flamboyant, but close to it. This is a guy
who became before there was John Gotti, there was al Capone.
And you talk about living this miserable life to die

(45:44):
of tertiary syphilis. Did you ever see him towards the
end of his life, Oh, my god, you could see it, Rabbit.
He was like forty seven years old. You know that
he hit his peak at the age of like twenty six.

Speaker 12 (45:57):
Right, well, he was do well, he's.

Speaker 2 (46:01):
Got a dope dealer. He was a little bit different.
It was a little bit different.

Speaker 12 (46:04):
He was more of a bootleg now as and now
these guys been getting money early.

Speaker 2 (46:09):
But you know who the people are now, you know
the criminals are now AI big Tech. Hey listen, Tom,
thank you, my friend. The idea of the actual old
time thug hood type. I don't know if this has
any carllary today and I just don't think it. I
don't know. I don't think it would work necessarily today.
Eight hundred and eight four eight nine two two too.

(46:31):
We're talking about the greatest mob movies and what is
this thing that humans love about organized crime and the like?
This is Lineel with you on Another side of Midnight, The.

Speaker 1 (47:04):
Other side of Midnight with Lionel entertaining and informative on
the Red Apple podcast network.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
Doesn't that do something to you? It affects you.

Speaker 12 (47:46):
This.

Speaker 2 (47:46):
I don't think people, well always say this about young people.
I don't think they understand what that movie was about.
It was incredible. It absolutely positively was in credible. The
effect it had not so much not just on the story.
By the way, Mario Pooso got so many things right,

(48:08):
he was a degenerate gambler. So they say his original
book was a Fortunate Pilgrim or something where Don Corleone
was just mentioned in passing. They say it was a
great book. But do yourself a favor. Read The Godfather
and read you'll see different things. Luca Brasi. But they

(48:29):
can explain whenever Mario Puoso talks about a sex scene
or any kind of a fight scene, it is so
how do I say this? It is so exquisitely detailed,
to the point where you're wondering, I wonder if this

(48:49):
is a little bit of a statement about him. Now anyway,
the reason why we the reason why Vinceipastori died, you know,
as you know, and people are going to be of
course on YouTube, are on the social media acting like
this is the word. And by the way, it's said
he was eighty years old. I didn't know he was
eighty years old. I don't know how old I thought.
I guess it makes sense. But they're going to act

(49:11):
like this was the worst thing in their life. One
in particular, I know, is probably going through every picture
he's got to say, where do I. I've got to
have a picture of him somewhere so I could post
it on Facebook to say, see see look, I knew him,
I stood next to him. I never understood that. It's
kind of ghoulish. It's weird, very very strange. But he

(49:33):
was great and we appreciate them. But watch the reaction
because remember I get another subdirectory to the story. Is
the effect that social media has on everything? On everything?
It's I could I wish I could show you the
people that I know who were out of their minds,

(49:54):
who were some of the most I don't want to
say boring people. Okay, I'll say it boring, nondescript, but
if you read their Facebook page, you think these live
the most exciting life. You can imagine the fun, the excitement,
the drinking. It's bizarre. That's that's all I will say.

(50:14):
Our number is eight hundred and eighty four eight nine
two too too. I want to talk more about this,
but also I don't know, and I'm getting at that
age I think where I am with the dage where
nothing is good like the old enough bad and don't
make movies like they used to. I don't, But can
you think of anything, maybe Star Wars, maybe something that

(50:35):
had the effect that The Godfather had, but not only
that from just in terms of organized crime and law
enforcement as well. It was incredible. And why do we
have this focus? Could there be another mob movie worth
its weight? And why they really need to do one

(50:57):
on the Philly mob the Scarful that's the story. That's
another one that's a little bit twisted with a weird
kind of an angle to it. This is line Up
with You eight hundred and eighty four eight nine two
two two. I wur to do coming up on another
side of midnight. I want to hear from you.

Speaker 1 (51:21):
The other side of midnight with Linel entertaining and informative.

Speaker 5 (51:26):
On the Red Apple podcast Network.

Speaker 2 (52:13):
Howboddy line know with you? This is our number two
of this thing of ours eight hundred and eight four
eight nine two two two. This is another side of midnight.
Fitz's Pastori died. He played big, you know. And by
the way, he is not to be confused with little

(52:33):
a little woosy as it were. Who was Malunga? And anyway,
there's all this background information and the line I g
as to where he got that name from. Imagine of
all the names this is the one you're stuck with. Okay,
fair enough, fair enough. And the question that I continue
to ask is why is it that way as a
society find is fascinating. Take for example, the movie Scarface.

(52:56):
I think that was one of the dumbest movies ever.
First of all, know a little bit about it that
al Patino, this is the worst Cuban accent I've ever
heard in my life. He's Mexican, he's cheach maudey eh so,
hello to my little friend, little friend of a coco road.
What is this? This is like a a Chicano. What

(53:20):
is this? It's the worst. And I know, I know
of what I speak. And there's one thing I know
is that Guanito's and that that ain't it. But they
went nuts over that movie. They loved it. Why I
couldn't stand it was stupid f Murray Abram. Sometimes you

(53:44):
have to ask the review. But it's the same thing.
He's the bad guy, he's this you know what, Miami
vite now, Miami vice.

Speaker 10 (53:58):
Now.

Speaker 2 (53:58):
That was important during Florida during the cocaine years. Oh man,
that was that was another story that was Silicon Valley
that changed everything, And that was kind of like the
romanticized version Smugglers, blues Umber, Glen Fry and and all
of this. Uh, there was a there's a certain degree

(54:22):
of kind of like romanticism to that. It's just it's
so it's so interesting why that becomes the focus of
our concern, why that permeates our our culture and the like.
And I also want to tell you that the that
the the in our culture, the sopranos is just unbe believable.

Speaker 3 (54:48):
You know.

Speaker 2 (54:48):
It's also interesting is that in certain parts of Sicily
they have references, like like in Corleone I if you
go they have pictures and reminiscent of the Godfather. I think,
how courteous you even you're doing this. But if you

(55:08):
really want to get into it, also if this is
check out the difference between the regular type of mafia
that the people talking about and the Kamara and the rag
Da Indraga Da. This is this is a whole another story.
And the Kamora and Toto Rina and uh uh Provenzano
and these these folks are from another planet. It's I mean,

(55:34):
this is this is who was it when when they
go on the lamb for thirty years, which is ridiculous,
but anyway. Of course they were. They pay people off.
But this is this had nothing really to do with
anything involving I guess hive living. This was a rough

(55:58):
way to live, I mean a rough way to live,
and it's still bigger than anything you can imagine. And
people argue, all doing what about American Who knows about
American organized gram Good luck with that, Have a nice day.
Let others fill you in on that. All I know
is there's something about this, and there's something so fascinating

(56:19):
and this. I love it when when somebody also loves
the affected version of this. Who wants to be I've
known so much this is this is interesting. So many
folks who are of course of New York origin, who
take on these almost like caricatures. Hey, forget about it.

(56:41):
It goes you're Jewish, I mean, not that the latters,
but you're Argentinian. Why are you acting like this? Because
they love this. It defines something which I'm trying to
get to the core of eight hundred eight. Lulu in Florida,

(57:03):

Speaker 13 (57:06):
Hello, Line, I love this topic and I love all
why Italian words? Oh well, I'm Italian. I grew up
in New York.

Speaker 2 (57:16):
You're Italian American.

Speaker 13 (57:18):
Italian American, Yes, but I've always loved observing human behavior
as well.

Speaker 3 (57:25):
Yes.

Speaker 13 (57:25):
Growing up, I would listen to my dad and my
uncle sitting around the table, pounding on the table, talking
about all their friends. They all had these little nicknames,
you know, like mom Nickel or Joey the Fish. And
I loved it and I never forgot that. But as

(57:45):
far as why people are so enthralled with the mafia
and the Italians, there is a contrast between the bad
stuff they do and the despicable things. But the culture
itself is beautiful, the language, the music, the food. That

(58:10):
is part of why it's romanticized. I think.

Speaker 2 (58:18):
I don't understand. Well, yeah, well.

Speaker 13 (58:22):
It doesn't seem like it's not You don't put that
together with somebody, you know, knocking someone off or shoot
or like in The Godfather. One of my favorite scenes
was the guy that was in bed I forget his name,
and with the horse's head, I.

Speaker 2 (58:42):
Mean that that story, well that's do you know that
that was a real horse's head and they got that
horse's head from a I think it was a type
of a a not a butcher. Not not butcher for

(59:02):
it horseman, but somebody who is who is making processed
whatever it was, and it was actually frozen. They had
to use glycerine to make it not tacky. And John
what was his name who played that character, had to
sit in this goop for a while. But it's interesting

(59:23):
to note also when people and I love when people
say it, and either way, I thank you so much
for your call. When people say I'm Italian, and that's
very nice, and you can say I've ever been in Italy. No,
you speak Italian? No, And I don't want to go
into the specifics of what people say. I've got a
friend of mine who claims to speak fluent Italian and

(59:44):
it's unrecognizable. It's not even I don't even know if
it's under what dialect it even it even follows, it's
not even anywhere near it is it bronx, I don't
know what it was. There are people who were present
Romans and the idea of the Italian who take great

(01:00:06):
umbrage at this, and they consider themselves to be Patrician
and almost almost to the point of beyond everything. So
even within the notion of what we call Italian and
Italian American the same way we do it with the Irish.
The people I know who can't speak Irish or Gaelic,
they never been to Ireland. They have a last name,

(01:00:27):
they might be a Callahan, but that's it. But they
claim that they.

Speaker 10 (01:00:34):
Are.

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
How do I say this, that they are part of
the culture, and perhaps maybe they are, you know, Sunday
pasta with the family. That's great. It's also kind of
an americanization sometimes, which is also wonderful too. People love
the same way people love to wear a jersey a team.
I'm on this team, this is my team.

Speaker 3 (01:00:55):
This, this.

Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
Defines me. I would venture to say that there are
aspects of the American Italian American culture if you will,
that it would be unrecognizable in Italy. They wouldn't know
what this was. They have no idea what you're talking about.
It is perhaps by an extended subject. When you talk
to Africans about the notion about being black, if you're

(01:01:22):
in any country where most, if not all, people are
black within the continent, I should say the black distinction
doesn't mean anything. It's presumed. And what's interesting also to
hear how so many African Native Africans be careful with

(01:01:43):
that people take it the wrong way, have nothing to
do with American African Americans say they don't recognize each other,
which is another part. I love this fascinating, this clannish,
this distinction about who we are, and even even within

(01:02:05):
groups of people Dominicans versus Puerto Ricans, and oh my god,
it is if I met somebody who landed from another
planet and said, let me tell you what we do,
it would take me forever just to explain this. Absolutely.
Let's go to let's go to David David in New Jersey.

(01:02:29):
You're on another side of Midnight withood Lionel.

Speaker 14 (01:02:32):
I'm a good morning, great topic, you know, on a
bunch of topics. My great I'm sixty five here. So
my great grandmother came here from Sicily, and immediately everyone
was addressed as that we're no longer we're not Italian Americans,
We're American Italians.

Speaker 3 (01:02:49):
Anybody. That's what she said.

Speaker 14 (01:02:51):
You know, they wanted us to assimilate the word mafia
and Sicilian. The word there's a word maya, maya uh,
and that's my daughter. Wrong, wrong, I'm wrong.

Speaker 2 (01:03:05):
Wrong, wrong, And the word is phelia and this is
a this.

Speaker 14 (01:03:12):
Is I'm sorry about that annunciation.

Speaker 2 (01:03:14):
No no no, And this was a reference to initially
the story that I said there was a bit of
apocryphal about the girl who was raped by the French soldiers.
Mafiuso is a whenever you hear the ooh, like bed
do bay do bi do when you hear the ooh,
that's Sicilian. And in eighteen sixty three there was a

(01:03:37):
play called e Mafiusi de la Vicadia about presid inmates.
The word meant strong, bold, bravado, not criminal, a horse
that was Mafiuso meant fast and mafia mafia. No, that's
that's not true.

Speaker 14 (01:03:58):
That's I mean so people that when the hoodlums would come,
they would run to the police. Mafia, mafia. They have
my daughter, my daughter when we were kids doing a
Tori gilliana.

Speaker 3 (01:04:09):
It's okay. So when you talk about the horse.

Speaker 14 (01:04:12):
Head in the bed, I always had the great idea,
It's like, how come somebody doesn't make a pillow like that,
like a horse head pillow, that would be a great nomalty.

Speaker 2 (01:04:20):
You have on that a wit about you that is
contagious and it's dangerous. And I hope you always treated carefully.
Thank you David, I mean that you are a witch.
That is scary.

Speaker 14 (01:04:33):
And don't forget the Godfather about drugs, because it was
very true when Sonny said that if we don't get
into it, somebody can, and they said it bring down
too much heat. That is what wrecked organized crime. And
you know it really was from the seventies, thank.

Speaker 2 (01:04:48):
You, thank you very much. Part of it. Part of
that's true, part of it's not. One of the biggest
jokes is how they say, oh no, we got to
say out of drug rugs sicily from Turkey, from the
from the when when the heroin was processed? Are you

(01:05:08):
kidding me? There's one thing which, unfortunately, and I hate
to say this, but well I don't hate to say it.
I don't know why I say I hate to say it.
If you are a criminal, you say we must do
things that make us the most profit. We may not

(01:05:29):
necessarily suffer ititionally. But one of our underlings. What destroyed,
if you want to say that organized crime, was the
Rico Statute, not drugs. Drugs were fine. I'm not going
to mention the names, but they were.

Speaker 1 (01:06:34):
The other side of Midnight with Linel entertaining and informative
on the Red Apple Podcast Network.

Speaker 2 (01:07:07):
Are writing a line up with your eight hundred eight
four eight nine two two two eight hundred eight four
eight nine two two two. If you've just tuned in,
it's one of the I just love aspects of human
behavior and how we have these. I guess this interest

(01:07:27):
artistically in the dirty, the underbelly, the taxi driver degenerates, killers,
organized crime, and how some things don't make I don't
make it. I still say that the Westies TJ English

(01:07:49):
is one of the most fascinating stories, completely and totally
worth note. And the stories I've heard from people from
the great Mike Shean and who was a great New
York City ex retired cop on absolute treasure, Joe Coffee. Uh,

(01:08:12):
these were these are people who sounded like cops, looked
like cops, acted like cops. They just they had a
sound to them. With all due respect to people who
are enjoying the benefits of diversity and and uh kind
of a of a more of a heterogy genius form
of police. I like cops who sounded like cops, looked

(01:08:35):
like cops, the whole Popeye Doyle, Eddie Egan, you know
that sort of thing. Well, look at look at this
look at the notion of the French Connection. The French
Connection was of course about Popeye Doyle theoretically, but Gene
Hackman was a scoundrel. He was a bad guy. But
who was like off Kojak was sort of He was

(01:08:59):
a rough and tumbl guy, a good guy. But nobody
wants to see Adam twelve Joe Friday, nobody, nobody wants
to see it. But the best people in the world today,
the people who are the most absolutely completely completely devoid
of any kind of humanity, and that is of course

(01:09:21):
Silicon Valley. And what you're also going to be seeing
is wait till this is kind of a side here.
Wait to see what happens to AI fortunes and hedge
funds that are going to just collapse. There's something to
be said, and we never we never really learn, so

(01:09:43):
to speak. One could argue, and this might be premature,
but you have to have something that you can explain.
And I never forget what Warren Buffett said. He says,
I don't understand this. He was talking about crypto. Also,
I don't want to understand this, but that's for another story.
Eight hundred and eight four eight nine two. I think
there's something also to be said. It's fascinating about people

(01:10:04):
who represent Again, when somebody is evil, they are famous
for being evil. And the difference between fame and infamy
are identical. They're the same thing. What's the difference. Remember
in the old days, this is on a much minor level.

(01:10:25):
When the stones came along and the animals. Compared to
the Beatles, the Beatles were considered clean cut, clean cut,
my arse, they were probably worse. But it's the perception
of things. It's the way the way we think. There's

(01:10:46):
all this again, this lore of organized crime today. And
what's also fascinating, what's really interesting, and I guess it's
kind of oxymorony, how there are so many people making
doing so many well, doing so well, whether one were
they on social media by talking about something which theoretically

(01:11:11):
is a secret society. It's a secret where nobody knows anything.
I remember one time there was I was watching a
special on the Inragada and the Camora. But in Dragada
that might be bigger than anything else. And that's, by

(01:11:31):
the way, that's based on family clans. And they went
to one particular city which was the heartbeat, the actual
heartbeat the epicenter of this particular iteration of whatever you
want to call it, and nobody knew anything. They said nothing.

(01:11:51):
There was no such thing as a want to be nobody.
You know what's funny, Intel's got to be the easiest
thing in the world. I have heard so many people say,
you see that guy, he's with so and so, And
I said, first of all, do you know that for sure? Yeah?
Does he know you're saying that? Because, as you know,
being a member of certain organizations is by in and

(01:12:13):
of itself a crime. This is what rico is. Are
you sure you want to say that? Do you really know?
How do you know these things? And then there are
other people who love to wear it because there's something
to be said, and it has to do with culture
and where you're from and how you think. The same

(01:12:34):
thing happened, interestingly enough, when we young people and white
kids in particular, all of a sudden took off of
this notion of the crips and the bloods and all
this other kind of stuff. All of a sudden, they
just loved this notion of sounding black at when I
say it's not you know what I mean, being a

(01:12:56):
part of gang and not thinking you're from Madison, Wisconsin,
your name is Rusty. What are you talking about? But
it became so so unmistakable. Why is that?

Speaker 3 (01:13:10):
Why?

Speaker 2 (01:13:11):
What's the what's the thing? What was it that lured
them about it? And I'm telling you, I think it
goes to show you a little bit about how we think.
And by the way, going back again, because there's so
many aspects to this, we don't have appointment TV. Now
we have binge watching. We have somebody who says, hey,
I'm gonna I'm gonna watch you know, the new episode

(01:13:34):
or the new season of such and such dropped this season,
we had to do it piecemeal. Every week. You didn't
know what was going to happen, and many times they
didn't either.

Speaker 14 (01:13:47):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (01:13:47):
Past story said, I believe that he would get the
script and immediately go and see whether his character was
in it, who was whacked, who was gone, who was
not there anymore? And also there's something to be said
after the fact, after after the loving is gone, so
to speak, when you see like Duma Key Andes and

(01:14:08):
others there were there. By the way, he's a very
interesting and very nice man. But later on they're trying
their best to kind of work things through in any
of bet our number is eight hundred eight four eight
nine to to two, eight hundred eight four eight nine
two two two. And I'll tell you what I would
really love a code. I would just oh my kingdom
for a code, mister Lee. I would do everything in

(01:14:29):
my power if I could too, perhaps maybe just I
love I love. We're not so subtle we speak to
each other in codes regarding code. Eight hundred and four
eight nine two two too. And also, I don't think
there's going to be another iteration ever of the Godfather again.

(01:14:54):
You can't have that. It just wiever happen. And it's
something that the youngsters, actually we'll never understand because that
was a once in a lifetime thing. I don't remember
something so defining not only a genre, but a new
kind of a filmmaker and the like. It is incredible.

(01:15:15):
Eight hundred and eight four eight nine two two too.
Let's go back at the phones, back of the fun
with your thoughts and comments, and then in regarding everything
under the sun, and let me go, let me see
as money there we go, Let's go to if we could,
Let's go to Don on Long Island. Don, you're on
another side of Midnight with Lionel Don once, Don twice.

(01:15:41):
Don's out of there, Tom and New Jersey. Tom, you're
on another side of Midnight with.

Speaker 3 (01:15:45):
Lionel, Tom, Tom. Hello, that's what I said.

Speaker 2 (01:15:51):
That's what I said, Tom. I said, let's go to
Tom and New Jersey And you said this. This is Tom, Tom.
How are you, sir?

Speaker 3 (01:15:58):
Good Vinels fantass show tonight. You have more than a
pocket full of loledge about this stuff, but it's just
a great show. I want to just comment on two things.
The Godfather was a cultural phenomenon, in my opinion, one
of the ten best movies of all time, beyond any cast.

(01:16:18):
And The Godfather was kind of like the Godfather to
the Sopranos if you think about it. And I didn't
watch the Sopranos until COVID. But in any event, here's
here's where I called. I had a personal experience with
a mob guy, pretty serious mob guy back in because
it was eighty eight or ready nine, Me and a buddy.

(01:16:39):
My buddy owned a small piece of the nets. The
bestketball team, he says, Mester playing the Dodgers tonight. Let's
go over to say stadium. I know Tim and Lasorda
would get in the locker blah blah blah. So we
did the whole thing, going to locker in for the game,
and we're chit chatting with some players and with little sorta.

(01:17:00):
So Lsorta comes out to dinner with us and he
brings a player, Bill Russell. We were already with the
mayor of Jersey City, Jerry McCann, and Lasorda. There was
six of us, So we pull up. We just we're
going to go to like Carnegie Leo's right across the
street from Carnegie Hall. So the car is parked out

(01:17:22):
the park. Lasorda takes a call from somebody on a
Giants who says, you know, they're waiting for you with
this restaurant. So we go uptown and this was an
Italian place, but it was kind of like in Germantown
about like York Avenue in about ninetieth ninety fifth up
around there. So we go. We go in and it's

(01:17:42):
a fabulous place. I mean, it's really richly decorated without
being severe. It's a very upclass restaurant. The six of
us we go through the bar area and we sit down.
Nobody else is in the restaurant. No one. We sit down.
I'm sitting directly next Lasorta. He's at the head head
of the table. I'm immediately to his right. All of

(01:18:05):
a sudden, you know, we have a drink or two
to chatting, and all of a sudden, these these two
big guys, two big, big guys like Andre the giant
type guys, uh with jackets on. But they come in
and they stand on either side of the door, gms,
and they're looking around. All of a sudden, who comes in,

(01:18:27):
John Dotty Lasorda. I had my back to him. Lasorta
sees him and he says to me. He goes, oh shit, look,
looker's here.

Speaker 2 (01:18:36):
Yeah, be careful, you to watch your language, sir. This
is a family show and children.

Speaker 3 (01:18:41):
Yes, I apologize for that, indeed. So he comes over,
and Lasorda was really nervous. He called them Charlie God.
He said, tom Tommy, you cost me a few bucks tonight.
He goes, well, Charlie, really, you know. So they chit chat,
but Dottie, I turn around and I'm going, holy Toledo,

(01:19:04):
I can't believe this is a guy that's killed a
million people. The whole Sparks thing he's already been on
trial once or twice in New York. And I got
to tell you, honestly, the hair on the back of
my neck was standing up. I never saw a better
looking man any day in my life than that guy.

(01:19:25):
And the guy was a magulate. He was a great
looking guy and a really good conversation conversationalist. He's talking
all around it. He's talking about everything, baseball, politics. Somebody
brought up his traveler or they said, you know, I
forgot his lawyer of Cutler. Well, you know, he wouldn't
he wouldn't be my lawyer if I didn't think it

(01:19:47):
was the best. That was all he said about that.
So he goes all around the table, and I know
what everybody's thinking. They're thinking, are the same thing I
am thinking. Is somebody going to come in here and
let us have it. We're going to be like collateral damage.

Speaker 2 (01:20:02):
Why would you think that?

Speaker 3 (01:20:04):
Pardon?

Speaker 2 (01:20:05):
Why would you think that?

Speaker 3 (01:20:07):
Well, because it was a pretty well known fact that
he was kind of a but.

Speaker 2 (01:20:13):
Yeah, but why woa, but but this is this one.
I mean, just knowing a little bit about a little
bit about how these uh individuals work, I think he
is a very wise man, Why would he I know
it's easy at the moment your your brain, perhaps it's
not thinking, but first of all, why would he want
to go in be seen? He leaves and then there's

(01:20:36):
a massacres that you were there five minutes. It doesn't
make any sense, But I thank you for your call.
I will tell you. I think if you speak of
one thing, there was a series in which he was
because we never heard him speak and met the man,
have no idea, and he was speaking. I believe it
was one of those jail recordings. He was either talking

(01:20:58):
to his daughter, his grandson, his son, or somebody, and
to hear him speak, it's far more I think, literate,
and far more expansive in terms of ideas then one
would think. Because you never the worst thing you do
in listening to listen to a wire tap. If I
hear the same wire tap over and over, agains like

(01:21:20):
I got it, I got it, I got it. But
there's something that's very interesting. Let me put it to
you this way. Take levels of fame. Okay, you can
take a rock star. If Mick Jagger walks in and
you can say, Wow, that's Mick Jagger, you feel elated.

(01:21:43):
Is there anything frightening about Mick Jagger. No, maybe his looks,
but no, what about another actor, a big actor, how
about a sports star, how about a politician? Is there
anybody else?

Speaker 8 (01:21:55):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:21:57):
But if somebody who walks in who is Nory who
was supposedly an organized crime figure, that transcends everything because
now you can take fame and you can take all
of the other things that Mick Jagger has, but add
to it a level of danger and this thing called infamy,
the idea where you are involved in kind of of

(01:22:19):
a fright. It's so it's fascinating. That's why when you
walk into a trial and you see a big trial
and lo and behold who's sitting there but Ted Bundy
or something. Because even in the annals of these sick,
demented people, they even they have a rock star status

(01:22:43):
and they're dangerous because it's like, let me put it
to this way, in the brain, when certain things are
connected nearby in terms of where iteration takes place, innovation,
not innovation, but for example, pleasure, pain, fear, dread sometimes

(01:23:09):
for example, something that elicits pain if in some cases
it can be misinterpreted. It's put it this way, it's
in the area of the brain that is part of titillation.
So the argument is that sometimes see one of the
reasons why this I'm really going into the woods now,

(01:23:31):
but let me just explain this. One of the reasons
why people say you should not spank children, and this
is very important, is that if you take them and
you normally spank the buttocks area, which is what most
people think about, because the child's mind is not necessarily
settled yet because parts of the brain are similar in

(01:23:54):
terms of the genital urinaria area and you know, buttocks
and this generic area that if you were to spank
a kid or hit some kid, a child may may
misinterpret that or the brain may interpret this as being

(01:24:15):
titillating as being exciting. Why, because it's parts You're hitting
a part of the body which is near another part
of the body, and sometimes a brain can't differentiate. That's
why you don't want to spank a kid because he
might be able to confuse anger, pain titillation, and then
you get off into a whole other kind of a

(01:24:38):
strange I don't want to say words like SMM, but
if you know what I'm saying, you don't want to
do something where a child early on, when events cement,
when you can give them conflicting stimuli and confuse them. Well,
that's what we see here. We see somebody who is

(01:24:59):
technically frightened, technically evil theoretically, but also famous, and her
brain can't differentiate the two. To them, it's like, it's famous,
I know that guy, yeah, but he's he's he's an
escape Yeah, but I know that guy. Let me tell
you something when when Richard Ramirez, when he would walk
into court, the Knight Stalker, when he would walk in
to court, people would faint. When Aikman walked into the

(01:25:23):
courtroom for the first time in Israel, the people people
fainted and they weren't in any believe me, there was
a noy was just considered a you know, admiration. But
what I'm saying is is that your brain can't differentiate
the two. That's a famous person, that's infamous, Oh what's

(01:25:45):
the difference? That's all. That's part of the reason why
let's go to Matt Matt in the Bronx. You're on
another side of Midnight with the Lionel. Matt Matt is gone.
Thanks how much? As go to Charlie on Long Island, Charlie,

Speaker 3 (01:26:05):
Hey, Lionel.

Speaker 15 (01:26:07):
I attended the auction today, great neck.

Speaker 3 (01:26:11):
I've never been to one before, so I was curious.

Speaker 2 (01:26:13):
What kind of auction was it.

Speaker 3 (01:26:15):
It was. It was a.

Speaker 15 (01:26:18):
Oh my goodness, stay sale. No, it was a mixture
of seas and of state stuff work. I Rebelia sports
and it was a framed picture with al Capone in
the middle top and all the other famous, infamous guys

(01:26:39):
got the bugsy, every known big time mafiosa. And I'm
curious to ask you. It started at fifty dollars. I
was expecting. I didn't know what to expect.

Speaker 12 (01:26:55):
You know, what do you.

Speaker 3 (01:26:56):
Think it went for.

Speaker 2 (01:27:00):
Thousand, ten thousand?

Speaker 15 (01:27:03):
But good guess what it went for four fifty well,
and it was weird.

Speaker 3 (01:27:11):
I thought it would go for more.

Speaker 15 (01:27:12):
Two was it that there were people?

Speaker 2 (01:27:16):
But wait a minute, let me ask you a question.
Was it autographed or was just pictures?

Speaker 15 (01:27:22):
I believe some of them were autographed, Okay, but it
was it was all the famous marfiosis from compone on forward.
And I was looking at it, I'm like, oh my god,
they got Guidia in there. In Castellano well.

Speaker 2 (01:27:34):
You know, it's interesting technically speaking. Capone wasn't named mafioso.
He wasn't really in the family. I mean, nothing that matters.
One time I used to work in a police We
have a court room at a police station, and they
had famous booking photos and I remember just staring at this,

(01:27:56):
these very clear pictures of al Capone. Towards the end
his signature, he wrote letters to his son. You should
read the letters. You're very loving and touching.

Speaker 15 (01:28:06):
Some of them may have been booking totos. Yeah, they
were all black and white, but they were all headshots
of you know, nothing of them dead.

Speaker 2 (01:28:15):
I understand.

Speaker 3 (01:28:19):
On it.

Speaker 15 (01:28:19):
Though. There was no Dillinger. Well, now, he wasn't really.

Speaker 12 (01:28:23):
Part of the thug life.

Speaker 15 (01:28:24):
He was just a criminal.

Speaker 2 (01:28:25):
There was a bank no no, no, no no. During
the twenties, the bank rubbers, Bonnie and Clyde and others.
Dillinger was also known for going into banks and find theoretically,
they would say, asking them to destroy mortgages. And I
believe so, yeah, there was a there was a Yeah,
I think there was a pot. You know what, Bonnie.

(01:28:49):
I'm confusing about Bonnie and Clyde. I don't know that's
a good question.

Speaker 9 (01:28:53):
I don't know.

Speaker 15 (01:28:53):
I think tried not to kill anybody. They you know,
they just showed intimidation.

Speaker 2 (01:28:59):
But they but but they would do is they would
have the the the loans, the mortgages that these banks
would have. He would destroy them. Yeah, and so.

Speaker 15 (01:29:12):
Also the sharecrop is and what not?

Speaker 2 (01:29:15):
Right, But it also gave at that time, it made
j Edgar Hoover famous by by almost how do I
say this, attaching himself to the fame of these people.
Those were really interesting folks. Remember machine gun Kelly, machine
gun Kelly machine gun. Kelly gave the term g man

(01:29:37):
when he told he told, uh, Jake Hoover has meant
don't shoot g man. They never heard that term before,
and it was pretty pretty boy, Floyd, maybe he's.

Speaker 15 (01:29:49):
Now yeah, may I, may I suggest something for you
before you know, I don't know. There's a show on
Netflix called The Man in the High Castle. It's a
nice long series about what would happen if two ended differently,
if the Nazis and the Japanese took over America and
Jayeghova becomes a gestapo. Uh, he buzzed, I mean to

(01:30:14):
the max worse than he ever did. In real life.
He had bugs in every you know, high offices and
anyone who thought needed to be bugged intact, all country
he wanted bug He wanted every Nazi.

Speaker 2 (01:30:26):
Well you know what, that's what. That's what. He would
be very by the way, thank you for your call.
He would be doing. He would be very happy. Right now,
let me take something about jayag Go Hoover. I think
I told you this before, but when I was a kid,
very very quickly, my mother gave me one time I
used to type. Early I was, I was typing.

Speaker 3 (01:30:44):
I like that.

Speaker 2 (01:30:45):
We had a typewriter. So one Christmas she gave me
stationary with my name on it in a whole bit.
I said, what do I do with this? He goes, well,
write somebody a letter. She showed me the form. We
had this dictionary and then the dictionary showed you letters
and the form. And I said, now to whom should
I address this letter? And without thinking, she says, oh,

(01:31:06):
I don't know jayeger Hoover. I said, who's that? I was,
I don't know how old it was. It was a kid.
He said, well he's he's like a policeman. Anyway, just
write him a letter and just just put FBI Washington.
Remember they had the airmail, you know they didn't. It
just got there. So I wrote Jaeger Hoover FBI. So

(01:31:30):
at the time I was having some problems with this
place called the Jamestown Stamp Company for some particular reason.
I don't know why I did this. I sent away
for canceled stamps. Why because I'm demented. I was a
child eight nine. I've no idea how old it was,
and I would have they would send me these canceled stamps, right,
And I apparently I owed something. I didn't notice this.

(01:31:52):
I was a kid. So one day my father we
get this note and they're going to assume me. So
my father writes a letter. He's a lawyer. He says,
my son is the capacity to enter to a contract,
you know, leave me alone or I'll sue you. And
my father looks at me with a look of death
and says, don't you ever write anybody again. You understand
that anybody. Don't you write, just not don't answer ads.

(01:32:16):
He just made it very clear, don't write anybody anything.
I don't even trust you to write. Don't even send
a letter nothing. Don't write. Okay, okay, it's like the
good Fellows, you know where the postman anyway, I had
forgotten that I send Jaego Hoover this letter. Dear mister Hoover.
I'm a big fan. Blah blah blah. So it was
a Saturday afternoon and he's out there, and whenever the

(01:32:38):
mailman came, we had this creaky mailbox and we could
always tell you could hear it a mile away. So
he goes out and he grabs a stack of mail
and he's going through it, and I happened to be there,
and he comes across this letter and it says Department
of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Office of the Director.

(01:33:00):
I can still see it, Washington d C. Addressed to me.
And he looks at me and he says, are you
writing anybody? Kind of said, I swear to godd are you?
I told you? So he opens it up and he
looks at he says, it's for you, and it was
Jaegar Hoover. Dear mister. Still, thank you very much. I

(01:33:21):
appreciate it your very kind words. I'm sending you. He
sent me a book. We became penpalace. So I wrote
him back. I didn't know what you're supposed to do.
I wrote him thanking him for the thank you, and
he wrote me for the thank you back. And we're
going back and forth and he's sending me books, and

(01:33:41):
he invited my family. We were going to go to
d C. He wasn't there, but his secretary wrote me,
I knew her. I mean it was it was terrific.
He was great, nice man, just whatever. So whatever they
say about him, I understand he had believe me. He

(01:34:01):
had his problems, but through this this little fat kid
in damp, but he was a gem. I know what
you're saying. He probably a little kid. He like kids.
See there you go with that. I don't believe, by
the way, I don't believe the walking around in a
dress story with Klaie Tolsen. That's a Roy Kohane story
that he started because Hoover was watched constantly, and to

(01:34:25):
think that he's walking around dressed as Dorothy Lemore makes
no sense. I numbers eight hundred and eight four eight
nine two two two eight hundred eight four eight nine
two two two two as many twoesasy one. We're talking
about an amalgam of why we love dangerous people outlaws
movies and outlaws. What does this say about us? What

(01:34:47):
does this say about what really turns us on as
a culture? This is another side of Midnight with Lionel.

Speaker 1 (01:35:14):
Said, the other side of Midnight with Lionel entertaining and

(01:37:15):
informative on the Red Apple podcast network.

Speaker 2 (01:37:38):
Let me tell you something, Bill Lee, I don't know
how you do it. You know, we're still debating whether
the end of The Sopranos was a good idea. I
think it was genius and represents it in many respects.
My wife and I drive by Holston's all the time that,
of course was that final scene, and I remember that

(01:38:01):
time this came on, thinking to myself, this is just
this was the end, the finale. By the way, let
me just say something very quickly, speaking of organized crime,
and let's just let's let's let's call it organized crime
being Elsie and Lacos and Nostra or mafia, whatever you

(01:38:22):
want to call it. The life what really killed it?
And I'm not saying it's gone. I'm not making any
judgment about that. Nothing ever goes away, but there is
a significant indifference in what it used to be. First
of all, was rocketeering the Rico statue. This This allowed
prosecutors to to target entire enterprises and their leadership, not

(01:38:48):
just individual crimes. It changed everybody. This this is Robert
Blakey next WITSEC witness protection, immunity safety, encouraging people to
to to break omerta, you know that. That that's that
was huge. And also surveillance, undercover ops the likes of

(01:39:11):
which you've never seen before. But there's also some things too.
There was there's neighborhood assimilation, you know, younger generations of
Italian Americans, you know, they assimilated into broader you know, societies,
kind of reducing traditional local recruitment, so to speak. It's
a way of life. If you're raising this your family

(01:39:32):
and your cousins and your brothers and your neighbors, it's
it's something that how can you not want to be
a part of something that you've known since day one?
But if that landscape has changed, the chance for recruitment
and the likelihood decreases well. And also there's changes in
labor business to the decline of traditional labor unions, the

(01:39:56):
rise of you know, corporate consolidation. It the dried up
this classic extortion racketeering changed everything. But surveillance more than
anything else. Do you know that everything has changed so drastic.
Let me give you another example. And I was going
to mention this perhaps maybe not for the first time

(01:40:20):
in a long time, we're talking about reinstituting the draft
now the president and everybody is saying, oh no, no, no, no, no,
that's not gonna happen. Well, I don't know, for the
first time, they're talking about re upping it this time.
This time, there's no draft card. You don't go into

(01:40:43):
the post office, you don't register. You are registered. It's
done for you. We know where you are, we will
sign you up. Our cells changes everything, It changes totally everything.

(01:41:05):
And if you look at what's happening with drugs, the
proliferation of drugs right now, it's Mexico organized crime in
many respects is on the level of Mexican cartels. Another
thing too, which is interesting. Right after the fall of
the Soviet Union, you saw a proliferation of other groups,

(01:41:26):
Russian mobs, Albanians and others, but Russian mobs in particular.
One detective noted one time he says he knew something
was different when he sees these folks under the typical
you know, the Russian types and they were playing chess.
These were educated people from a different mindset. And when

(01:41:51):
you also throw in other things like Chinese trias and
Japanese and others, it changes things differently. So every body
has different iterations of organized crime. It's been affected differently
by different law enforcement. But when it comes to what
is romantic, what we want to watch on TV, what

(01:42:13):
people have loved, oh no, classic American organized crime. Let's
face it, that's what people find fascinating. And I reiterate
and perseverate, perhaps and perorate this question. Why the third
the final hour coming up? On another side of Midnight

(01:42:34):
with O Linel.

Speaker 1 (01:42:44):
The other side of Midnight with Linel, entertaining and informative
on the Red Apple podcast network.

Speaker 2 (01:43:36):
I wat in align up with you. This is the third,
the final hour of this thing of ours. Number is
eight hundred and eighty four eight nine two two two.
Changing the course of this discussion just a little bit.
I think I would be remiss if I didn't bring
this up, because when I read this this week and
I thought, oh my god, this can't be you. See,

(01:43:59):
my friends, for more than half a century, Americans have
lived with an assumption so deeply embedded in the culture
that most people barely think anything about it, and the
idea was that if you served in the United States military,

(01:44:20):
you volunteered. Now that assumption has not changed. Yet something else,
unquestionably has. The machinery of the American military draft is
being modernized. But you're being told no, no, no, no, don't
worry about it. Don't worry about it. It's not what

(01:44:44):
you think. And whenever Washington starts rebuilding machinery, it insists
it has no immediate intention of using reasonable people or anything,
and it has a lot of folks saying, well, what's
this about. Beginning in December of twenty twenty six, the

(01:45:06):
Selective Service system is scheduled to automatically register eligible men,
rather than depending upon young men registering themselves, and that
change was enacted through the Fiscal twenty twenty six National
Defense Authorization Act signed by President Trump in December twenty

(01:45:32):
twenty five. Selective Service says it will use federal data
sources to identify and register automatically eligible men. I understand
precisely what this means and what it does not mean.
Registration is not conscription. There is no active military draft

(01:45:57):
in the United States today. Congress cannot suddenly discover that
your twenty year old has been shipped to basic training
because somebody pushed a button at Selective Service doesn't work
like that now under the existing system. Actually restarting induction
would require Congress to change the law to authorize a draft,

(01:46:22):
and the President to approve it. Selective Service itself expressly
rather says this, but this does not make the modernization
aspect of this development. See's quite the opposite. You see
the Daily Caller this one particular article reported Friday that

(01:46:45):
Selective Service is seeking a new digital simulation capable of
recreating a full mobilization pipeline running different scenarios. Now listen
to this examining how how conscription would operate in the
digital age. And the agency, by the way, is also
modernizing legacy conscription applications and implementing automatic registration. Why. Well,

(01:47:12):
the answer is very simple and it's understandable. Readiness. See
a nation, they argue, maintains fire extinguishers without planning to
burn down the building, and the United States maintains nuclear
weapons it desperately hopes it never has to use. Governments prepare,
of course, contingency systems. But the thing is, you and

(01:47:39):
I and others the same way. In a minute. Are
we even talking about the possibility of a draft? Many
have said for the longest time, Charlie Wrangle and others
said that the only reason to if you want to
change people, if you want to stop the utilization or
the expenditure of money, is for war institute or draft,

(01:48:02):
and everything will change. I just want to throw that
one in there, because people are talking about it, and
if you read the Military Times and a lot of
other people, they're very alarmed by this. Are you going
to hear this on conventional cable news shows? No? Why? Well,
why do you think? Why would they do anything to
alarm you. The whole idea of this is to get

(01:48:26):
it in place and then one day, if all of
a sudden they need you is, hey, guess what we're
going to implement this now? How we've been running tests
and we've been running programs without your knowledge. In any event,
I just wanted to mention that let's go back at
the phones and back of the fund and back to
this fascinating subject about our collective psyche terry in New

(01:48:50):
Jersey Terry. You're on another side of Midnight with Lionel.

Speaker 9 (01:48:55):
While the American people are trendy and starstruck. That's why
you see a lot of people who are fascinated and
all types of personality types attracted to celebrities or infamous
people regardless. But I just think it's basically from afar.
I mean, you do have women writing love letter is

(01:49:15):
to psychotic killers in prison, but they themselves would not
go into prison to hang out there and meet them.
They write letters just like women are attracted to psycho killers.
You won't see poor girls doll themselves up and head
into a high crime neighborhood to meet, you know, psychotic killers.
They'll keep doing.

Speaker 2 (01:49:35):
No, no, not in that respect, But the number of
women who do go and who are groupies at prisons,
you'd be surprised. Now, let me ask you something. The
point is, why does infamy attract people but not, for example,
the best physicists or the best heart surgeon or somebody
who just does something notable. Why isn't that fame attractive?

Speaker 9 (01:50:00):
Oh, that is definitely very attractive. I mean, most women
are attracted to that. There's just a small percentage I
believe it's a small percentage of women who are attracted
to people who are infamous killers crazy. Maybe they really
are attracted to it, or maybe them a very naive
and gullible they feel they can change a psycho killer,

(01:50:23):
which we know they can't do with but maybe they
feel they can and they're attracted to this and people.

Speaker 2 (01:50:29):
You know you're way you're not answering the question with
all due respect. You're just saying, well, there are people,
and they're young people, and they're gullible, and they're attracted.
But why explain to me what is sexy about somebody
who's killed people before, or who is on trial for killer,
or somebody who's a gangster. You haven't explained that. Why?
What is it?

Speaker 3 (01:50:51):
I will tell you.

Speaker 9 (01:50:52):
To a normal person, they will not be attracted to that.
A person who is awful, something's wrong with them mentally,
will be and could be attract to that type of person.
Why there's something Why? Because there's something wrong with them.

Speaker 2 (01:51:06):
I'm trying to ask you to tell me what is
wrong with them. For example, if somebody was a baby killer,
or somebody who let's say, was you know, tortured animals
or something, I don't think that would get their attention.
Some killers, you have to explain why is that attractive.

(01:51:29):
Not I don't think there's something wrong with them at all.
Why do you think that people prefer movies about sometimes
people gangsters or killers or criminals. It's not just people
who are sexually attractive.

Speaker 16 (01:51:41):
Why because people you told them about two different big
people were fascinated through through the scope of I want
to see a movie, I want to read a book,
and then it's comparing people.

Speaker 9 (01:51:54):
Maybe these women think these guys are innocent, maybe they
can change them. Maybe they just are attracted to a
psycho killer. There's something wrong with these people. There's something
wrong with these women who are attracted to them. Then
you've got to get the doctors or psychiatrists are out
there to figure out what's going on. But they are
off Now.

Speaker 3 (01:52:13):
A lot of them.

Speaker 9 (01:52:14):
Could pass off as a regular person in society and
create all kinds of habits because they maybe have a
deep seated hatred of the average person, and they cause
trouble for people too. They could operate that way. But
they are attracted to these individuals, and it's not just
Luigi Luigi Ligioni wherever his name is. They're not just
attracted him. Does all of them get led is to

(01:52:36):
the high profile crazy, Jerry.

Speaker 2 (01:52:40):
I thank you. I thank you so very much. I
appreciate your Carl. Thank you call me again. But that
didn't answer anything. I'm just saying that's just pointed out
and told me what I already knew. And are they
really off? Are they really off? They're not crazy. See,
that's what we love to say in this country, that

(01:53:00):
people are crazy, that people are demented, that people there's
something wrong with them. Always, it never ceases to amaze me.
I don't think there's necessarily something wrong with them. Let's
go to a let's go to a David in Manhattan. David,
you're on another side of midnight with Lionel.

Speaker 3 (01:53:24):
I think it's good to hear you.

Speaker 2 (01:53:26):
Okay that David. I'll David from Manhattan.

Speaker 3 (01:53:29):
Next.

Speaker 2 (01:53:29):
Go ahead, David, talk to me, sir. Oh, there we go,
David and Manhattan. David, you're on another side of midnight
with Lionel.

Speaker 8 (01:53:35):
That's me, okay. So back in the seventies I worked
with a company that you should do installations of custom
made furniture. And we had this piece and it was
being put into the Gulf and Western Building up on
fifty nine Street. Oh yes, oh yes, and the way
it worked was unbelievable. Even though they had big doors,

(01:53:56):
we couldn't bring it in. They had a special machine
with suction cups that they put onto the glass. They
would take the glass off and put it to the side,
and they had they'd come out with a forklift and
pick up a palette, lift it up and hand it
off to another pallet, another forklift that was inside the building. Anyway,

(01:54:17):
we put our stuff on a pallette and this was
like I had a little bag with tools, and I'm
waiting and I'm waiting for a well this to go on.
I go, I'm gonna make put my bag up and
just walk through the door. So I pick up my bag.
All of a sudden, I hear this gurgling, low voice say,
put that EFN bag down, or I'm gonna stop this

(01:54:38):
whole damn operation. I turn around and there there's no
other way to describe it. This short little gorilla and
the most fabulous gorgeous suit I've ever seen, and he's
dripping any gold, gold chains, and every finger on him

(01:54:59):
is old and I couldn't believe it. And my boss
goes to put it down, put it down, put it down.
I put it down. They continue this operation. He's watching
us like a hawk. And it goes on and we
do our work and when we have to leave, we
have to go through the same process again. We can't
walk out through the door. We got to put our

(01:55:20):
stuff onto the palette and again this forklift picks it
up and puts it outside. You know, we walked through
the doors. It was like so controlled by organized crime.
You couldn't do a thing.

Speaker 2 (01:55:37):
But what was you got to explain? People are listening
now and they're saying, I don't understand.

Speaker 8 (01:55:42):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 3 (01:55:43):
What was?

Speaker 2 (01:55:43):
What did organize do?

Speaker 8 (01:55:45):
What was controlled this? This gentleman basically was showing you
that he was in charge. And what type of gentleman
you didn't question him? He ran the operation. I guess
he oversaw the operation for the Gulf and Western building.

Speaker 2 (01:56:06):
What were you doing that was objectionable to him?

Speaker 8 (01:56:10):
Picking up the piece up my bag and bringing it
through the door.

Speaker 2 (01:56:16):
Why was this a problem?

Speaker 4 (01:56:17):
Why?

Speaker 8 (01:56:19):
Why was because everything has to be done on his terms?
His terms were the furniture as well as all the
tools were considered I guess part of the work.

Speaker 2 (01:56:32):
And the work now, was he a somebody in this office?
Was he part of labor was he he came out.

Speaker 8 (01:56:38):
I guess it was part of label. He just came
out of nowhere. And all the people there that were like,
you know, handling the uh, the forklift and all this,
they listened to him. You did what he said.

Speaker 2 (01:56:53):
Now, I'm gonna ask a stupid question, how do you
know this is organized crime and not somebody with a
great suit who was just stuff.

Speaker 8 (01:57:01):
Well, I guess the look of him, the way he spoke,
you know, the whole thing, it just reeked of. Uh.

Speaker 2 (01:57:09):
It's interesting. I appreciate that. I appreciate that, and thank
you for your call. I had a friend of mine
years ago who told me he had no idea. It
came from Florida and he was part of it. He
was into a some kind of I don't know what
it was. It was some electronics show where some people
was going to and he was at the Javit Center
and he explained to me, says, he didn't know he

(01:57:30):
moved something, change, did something without getting approval or having
some approved version of an individual do whatever they were
told to do. And he was immediately visited by somebody
who was most persuasive, who said, in a very nice way,
we would prefer that you use our assistance to accompanish

(01:57:55):
something as simple as either changing a light bulb, moving
a sign and the thing. And he immediately said, oh, oh,
I get it. It's that simple. Eight hundred and eighty
four eight nine two two two. What about another draft?
You think we're ever going to do that? Oh, you
can bet on it. More coming up on the other

(01:58:16):
on another side of Midnight with Lionel.

Speaker 1 (01:58:32):
The Other side of Midnight with Lionel entertaining and informative.

Speaker 5 (01:58:36):
On the Red Apple podcast network.

Speaker 2 (01:59:01):
Alrighty a ligne know with you eight hundred and eight
four eight nine two two two eight hundred eight for
eight nine two two two You know there, I was saying.
After The Godfather, the movie, it was reported that people
members supposedly of organizations dressed differently. Restaurants all of a

(01:59:26):
sudden looked looked for folks to frequent theirs. It became,
it became overnight, almost like a badge of honor, like
well you know the boys like this really yes, Whereas
before you would say, oh no, this is going to

(01:59:46):
ruin our reputation.

Speaker 17 (01:59:48):
It changed everything immediately, and it created the wanna be,
the wanna be the poser, the synthetic version, when all
of a sudden forget about it became I mean everybody,
to the point where it got to be a little
bit much just.

Speaker 2 (02:00:09):
Like doing things. When gangster raps started, young kids name
Rusty from Sheboy, and all of a sudden are referring
to my end and they say, what what you know?
There were gang members and they were using various urban
and gang colloquialisms and their red haired, freckle face. You know, Rusty,

(02:00:34):
It's just oh you're a gangster, okay, Oh gangsta, Gangsta.
Let's go back to the phones, back to what I
call fun Pamela in New Jersey or on another side
of Midnight with Lionel.

Speaker 18 (02:00:48):
The organized criminals come in many different forms and backgrounds.
For really, since when I taught in the high school,
there was a particular group that came from Russia and
they were tearing the members, and through the grapevine we
heard that the Russian teacher was so afraid of them
that she quit. They obviously threatened her. And I had

(02:01:09):
a reputoostin for not taking fools lightly. And I was
very good at my job with some rough characters and
special ed and behaviorally. So anyway, I found myself one
day in a desiliate part of the building and this
group came in my atmosphere and they were obviously speaking Russian,

(02:01:31):
so I was like, ooh, this must be the group
they're talking about. So, you know, it's so huge that
I didn't have a run in with them until then.
And one of the members started mocking me just because
I was there, And so all of a sudden, the
who appeared to be the leader said in English, leave
her alone, and he gave me a thumbs up that

(02:01:55):
she's all right. So apparently my reputation for not taking
fools lightly in the administration because there were certain things
going on where I made sort of public, let's say,
not a performance, but my feelings known as to administrator
or they sadly, and they liked the power, they liked

(02:02:17):
that I had strength, and.

Speaker 2 (02:02:20):
They just liked you, or they or they just liked
you for no reason other than just just liking you.
You know, it's funny you say that there are people,
how do I say this? In some of these groups,
not just typical organized crime, but others as well. Sometimes

(02:02:41):
the women, the wives, the girlfriends, the or as they
say on TV Goomar, which is just my skin crawls
when I hear that. They are oftentimes sometimes worse than
anything in the organization themselves, because just because they are
not a member of this does not mean they are

(02:03:02):
completely and not at all not verse with what's going on.
They know precisely what's happening, and they're sometimes more vicious,
if you will, than others. But just because they're a woman,
it means nothing. It just it means nothing. But in
every or in every group of people, there are people
the first ones who say, how can I exist outside

(02:03:26):
of the law. But what I wanted to say was
in the prototypical Italian American that we talk about now,
it started out of necessity in Sicily, because the only
people they had to go to for meeting out justice
or judicating wrong, you know, problems is the Romo, you know,

(02:03:50):
the man of honor, the guy who literally was like
a village elder. And when they came here, these same
folks realize, you know what, we might be able to
implement this. First of all, it was like we said,
the black Hand, this is kind of this extortionist group.
But then it came here and the same folks from

(02:04:11):
other countries who were afraid of deportation or whatever. They
also turn to these folks, which is what they're used to.
So it started kind of by necessity, and then later
on as people realize they can kind of beat the system.
And by the way, Pamela, I appreciate that, Thank you
for calling me. Call me again. There is nothing more
organized and more criminal than government. Absolutely positively. You want

(02:04:37):
to talk about gangsters, let me tell you something. None
of these people, not Vini Ugotz or whoever these people,
can get us into war. None of these people can
be involved in serious weaponshipping and changing the course of
human development. Who can get us involved in in ventures

(02:05:02):
that are just stupid, where where innocent people could be
killed in a war that nobody wants. Did ultimate gangsters,
the ultimate real gangsters are are politicians, without a doubt.
Lucas in New Jersey, Lucas, you're on another side of
midnightwood Line.

Speaker 19 (02:05:22):
Yeah, he Lionel Uh talking about the mob. I got
something of my friend Sale. He wants infiltraded the mob
if you will. Uh he what it was? Actually fail? Well,
I think infiltrated I may use that little liberally.

Speaker 8 (02:05:37):
Uh.

Speaker 19 (02:05:38):
He was sad a friend of mine. I'm I'll tell
you this story. Uh, he told me this at a bar.
I don't mention that to cast doubt on the story.
I think this is why he told me in the
first place, but I think I'll repeat it. Uh. He
was following a thread led him to social Social club
and I believe it was in Queen's and it was

(02:05:59):
maybe the early eighties. He was around thirty two thirty
three years old and he'd been following a thread.

Speaker 4 (02:06:05):
And Sell, what is a thread?

Speaker 2 (02:06:07):
What does that mean? Following a thread? What does that mean?

Speaker 19 (02:06:10):
Well, well, you never knew where it started or where
it ended, you know, you just it was. It was
just a thread that he was pulling at for a while.
On this particular thread led him to this.

Speaker 2 (02:06:19):
What does that mean? Excuse me back up a little bit.
I understand the imagery. What did he do? Precisely?

Speaker 19 (02:06:26):
And he was not law enforcement, He was not a journalist,
he was he was just a citizen. He was he
was He became convinced if there were a series of observations.
I'm not going to get into this observation.

Speaker 2 (02:06:36):
No no, no, wait, wait no, no, no, I'm curious.
He became aware of what that there were organized criminals available,
or that he he wanted to independently infiltrate them. I
don't understand. Tell me what he did? We acing too much.

Speaker 19 (02:06:50):
Well, what he told me was that something was happening
in that club that connected to something larger, and he
decided the only way to understand it was to go inside.

Speaker 2 (02:06:58):
That's what I How would I mean, I'm just I'm sorry,
I'm dense. How would he know what was going in
a club that he was not a member of?

Speaker 19 (02:07:07):
Well, you know, Shal was not a reasonable person. He was.
He arrived at a different conclusion through what he considered
airtight logic, But he was not a reasonable guy. So
I don't know, really understanding.

Speaker 2 (02:07:18):
So he decides on his own. He says, there is
this organ there is this social club or this whatever
it is, and he says, I think there's something the
fairy is going on there. And I, as a private citizen,
not law enforcement, not as a journalist, but as a
private citizen, am going to infiltrate this note, this club,

(02:07:40):
this private club of which I am not a member,
And I'm going to go in independently and get to
the bottom of something which I suspect to be going
on as a private citizen. Is that what you're saying?

Speaker 3 (02:07:51):
You got it?

Speaker 19 (02:07:52):
But when I say what does he nuts? You could
say that, Lionel, Well, I'll play what happened when he
went into he went to First he went to a
stript store. I think it was in Bay Ridge. He
bought a suit for this occasion. Now that he wasn't
a nice suit. I think that sale once told me
he had a He had a had a theory. He
explained this to me once, the right suit in the

(02:08:13):
right neighbor, He said, he communicates a specific set of
information about a man. So he wanted to get a
certain suit.

Speaker 12 (02:08:19):
I think it was.

Speaker 19 (02:08:19):
I think he paid eleven dollars in the stript store
and it conveyed exactly what he wanted to convey what.
It was well made, but it wasn't new, and it
was it was the kind of suit that said, like,
you know, I don't shop meself, but I like my stuff.
So he paid eleven dollars. He also bought a newspaper.

(02:08:40):
And you love this, Lionel. He told me that a man,
a man waiting summer with a folded newspaper is a
man with no word. It's with somewhere to be. A
man reading a newspaper is a man with nowhere to be.
I think, I think you'd like that. Okay, Well he
walks into the club and he was Tuesday afternoon and
he is in the afternoon. He said, I want to

(02:09:00):
note that he spoken to Italian, by the way, speak
any Italian. But he just sat down there at the
bar and he looked vaguely Mediterranean. So I suppose he passed.

Speaker 2 (02:09:10):
And he walked into a private social club and sat
quote sat down at the bar, and he would have
been immediately recognized as not being a member. Well, how
long was he there before he was escorted up?

Speaker 19 (02:09:26):
Well, he wasn't discorted out. He sits down at the
bar and there are four men in the club at
the time, tour playing cards, one was watching television, and
the guy behind the bar looks at Seal, you know,
he looks at him. I think the way you look
at a thing that appeared somewhere, or things shouldn't be.
And the bartender said something to him an Italian. So
stal nods and that's it. That's his entire response. He

(02:09:48):
nods with He was a very specific kind of nod
like he was confirming something rather than.

Speaker 2 (02:09:54):
Okay, I'm curious. Let's cut to the chase. What happened?
When did they kill your friend?

Speaker 19 (02:10:00):
Hey, it didn't kill him at all. The two men
playing cards, they'd not looked up. The man watching television
didn't look up either, and the bartender didn't even ask
him his name or his business. Sal was just sitting
there an eleven dollars suit with his Folton newspaper.

Speaker 2 (02:10:13):
And understand, this story is this is this is this
is laborious. What was the conclusion? Let's jump to the
end of the story. What happened?

Speaker 19 (02:10:22):
So what happened was that I got a man, A
different man came from the back, a different, different caliber
of man. Sala called him many.

Speaker 2 (02:10:29):
So what happened? Please just tell me, I beg you,
just what happened?

Speaker 19 (02:10:32):
He sets me to sell an Italian?

Speaker 2 (02:10:35):
Then, and what happened? And what happened?

Speaker 19 (02:10:39):
So he said something in Italian? Sell respond understand, I'm
waiting on. Sala responded, I'm waiting on Thursday. And the
man not okay, And.

Speaker 2 (02:10:50):
I'm begging you. You're a very nice man. I appreciate this.
I am so tired of this story. Tell me the
punchline jump all the way to the end of the story. So, therefore,
what happened the end of the story? Not somebody came in,
he was wearing a jacket, he put the paper down,
he looked up, he had a drink. No, what happened?

(02:11:11):
What was the last part of the story. Tell me
the end.

Speaker 19 (02:11:14):
Of the story is that sal left the bar having
not been recognized as an impostor, and he came back
to naxt day and the bar was closed. It was
closed the very next day.

Speaker 10 (02:11:26):
You put me.

Speaker 2 (02:11:27):
Through this for that story. Thank you very much, Lucas,
thank you very much. I appreciate it. Not really, my god,
I'm trying. I'm thinking to myself, am I being set up?
This is the worst story ever, With all due respect,
everybody's entitled all that, all that for nothing interesting. Lenny

(02:11:52):
in the Bronx, Lenny, Lenny tried to top that. You
run another side of Midnight with Lionel.

Speaker 9 (02:11:58):
Well and the breeze was coming in. You're right, God,
this is talk radio. You got to get right to
the point. You can't make the story. You can't elo
game the story, you know exactly, but it's good the
way you play along because you are funny too.

Speaker 2 (02:12:15):
But I try my best.

Speaker 9 (02:12:16):
I try my best, and your best is very good.
The grand lady who just called in, she said those
individuals were Russians. Were they Russian students or they Russian secrets?

Speaker 3 (02:12:30):
Sir?

Speaker 9 (02:12:30):
I mean, who are these Russians?

Speaker 3 (02:12:34):
No?

Speaker 2 (02:12:34):
No, I think there were students of some sort. They
would be hanging around as school. Russian secret servants out
of school is a different story. A code, mister Lee,
A code. So what is your what is your point,
my friend? Elucidate us with your unique take on this situation.

Speaker 9 (02:12:54):
Oh, my take is very unique. I just think everybody
has like a and they all like fantasize and think
about things, maybe things that they wanted to be in life,
and they didn't succeed, and they took another avenue, and
then they succeeded the other way. Some people think the
wrong road home, and some people in life put on

(02:13:15):
a pair of roll skates and they skate through the
whole thing.

Speaker 2 (02:13:18):
I have no idea what that I have no idea
what this means. I mean, So therefore, you're saying the
reason why people like mob of movies is because of.

Speaker 9 (02:13:30):
Because of I don't think I don't know if everybody's life.
Do mob guys like mob movies? That's the best question.

Speaker 2 (02:13:37):
Are you kidding me? Are you kidding? Absolutely? Do people
in the CIA like spin Do people in the CIA
like spy movies? My my friend John Kiriako says they
love it? Are you kidding me? How many times they

(02:13:57):
sit there and they say, Hey, that's me, that's me,
and then they say, well, it's funny you say that.
It's funny you say that because during some of the
some of the some wire tapped allegedly that occurred in Jersey,
there were a number of people who were saying that's me,

(02:14:17):
when in fact it wasn't them. It just they just
happened upon this, this way of thinking.

Speaker 8 (02:14:25):
You know, let me tell you.

Speaker 2 (02:14:25):
And by the way, thank you for your call. I
appreciate this. This is one of the things which I
find interesting out of all of the people that I
believe to be from what I know. I'm just look,
I'm not going to pretend like I know anything about this.
I'm just a civilian. I what do I know. I
don't know anything. But the person that I felt was

(02:14:48):
the most interesting of the group that if they used
this particular type of power or logic. I think Carlo Gambino,
of all of them, intrigues me. Well, number one is
Lucky Luciano, number one, but number two is Carlo Gambino.
How this is at the time before racketeering, before rico,

(02:15:09):
before wiretapping, and he would insist upon just not talking
on the phone, and he recognized me he saw something
even though there was no such thing as wiretaps. Nobody
there's no such thing as that anymore. The idea of
surveillance today is so great you wouldn't believe. In the

(02:15:29):
old days they had these Nagra tape recorders where they
would have them taped to their chest or their boot
or just not anymore. But even then he said, you
know what there was there was, So that's that. Also
the idea of somebody who goes law for long periods
of time, who is never arrested, who and also which

(02:15:54):
is probably the most difficult, who abs positively expresses no
interest in showing off in as someone said one time,
wearing it. That always fascinated me. When Lucky Chiano came
his you one of the I used to love to

(02:16:16):
study this. My interest has been the same thing happened
to My interest in organized crime history. History is not
not not embellishing this, not not loving it, but just
looking at the history of this. The same thing that
happened to me regarding that happened to me regarding cigars.
I was. I was, you know, from my grandparents were

(02:16:38):
cigar makers, and where I was actually technically born, we
had some of the greatest cigars ever. I mean I
grew up with him. We spoke cigars in grade school,
in high school, we all had the best and it
wasn't considered at all cool or rich. You know. I'd

(02:16:58):
go to this one guy and he'd give a cigars.
He'd there was no box, he was just wrapped silk
around it. And anyway, well, that changed with the Cigar
Aficionado magazine and Marvin Schenkin and Rush and people now
were smoking cigars. They wanted to show, Hey, look at me,

(02:17:18):
Let's go smoke a cigar. I said, let's go smoke
a cigar. Yes, say saying let's go smoke a cigarette.
And it killed me. I lost all interest in it completely, completely,
though I do love my good friend cigar Dave at
Arthur Avenue right there in the in the in the complex.

(02:17:41):
And then even so, all of a sudden, from what
I understood, this notion of it being a quote, a
secret society where you actually kept your mouth shut, now
has been exposed by social media. What killed me even

(02:18:02):
before then. And you this may surprise you, but when
I was just out of a law school, I became
very good, became friends, and he became one of my
best friends, with a fellow named Gordon Solely who was
a wrestling announcer. And I became immersed in the business
of this and it was so secret, so they would

(02:18:28):
say k fabe. So I mean you, you cannot believe
if you were a wrestler and you were seen seen,
if you're a babyface, a good guy, if you're seen
with a heel, they'd fire you, they would move you,
they would It was and I loved the secrecy, and

(02:18:51):
I love the people who say play it low, don't
cause call attention to yourself. Well that changed and now
with the with the social media, I'm listening to everybody.
He's got one story after another explaining everything. I'm thinking.
You took an oath, You took an oath, And then

(02:19:11):
there's this notion of the rat it's impossible for you
to live in a society or in an organization where
you were looking at fifty sixty you know, football scores
for terms of sentences, and for people to maintain some
kind of secrecy. So I just it's like I'm not
even in this life as it were. I can't believe

(02:19:33):
how many people I know. I There used to be
something about wondering, like you think, maybe I don't know
who knows he's a says he's a plumbing contractor. I
don't know. That's what I thought was so interesting about
the the secrecy of it. Mister Lee, can we fix

(02:19:56):
our screen? Please? Thank you, sir. There was the time
before Frank Castelle came along. As I told you, they
thought he was Italian. Excuse they thought he was what
I'm we trying to say. They thought he was Irish,
and they thought he was Costallo. You had no idea.
Nobody knew anything about these folks. They were just kind

(02:20:16):
of low key. You just did not know this. But
now because of the Internet in particular, Al was gonna
tell you something now with these I forgot to make
more point about wrestling. Wrestling was so secret. Now there's
shoot interviews and they were explaining everything about k Fabe
and who I can't believe what I'm listening to. It
may not seem like much to you, maybe it surprises you.

(02:20:38):
But I love the idea of secrecy. I love the
idea of taking an oath.

Speaker 8 (02:20:43):
I love the.

Speaker 2 (02:20:43):
Idea of not knowing anything. And now there's a proliferation
again of people who used to be in the CIA,
and they have websites and they have podcasts and they
have It's like, wait a minute, you're telling everybody you
were in the CIA. Isn't that kind of dangerous? Don't
you want to maybe not tell people that? So again,
what I thought was interesting, I thought was the idea

(02:21:08):
this is silly me of the way the for lack
of a better word, the mob was explained to me.
Number One, civilians need not worry. We mean you no harm.
Number Two, if I can tell who you are, you're
doing something wrong. You're ruining it, You're causing attention. Another thing.

(02:21:31):
I don't understand. This is another And I'm sure you
were the same way. Whatever happened when I used to
see the pictures, photos FBI surveillance of all these people
showing up at the ravennite, you know, or just kissing,

(02:21:52):
kissing each other in publicly? What are you doing? Some
FBI agents sitting there saying, oh, you mean that, guys,
I didn't know. Hey, look who it is. He's a member,
he's a whoever said this. I don't understand. I don't
understand any of it. I see. That's my whole life.

(02:22:13):
I don't understand. I expected more. I wanted again from
what I understand, just a civilian from when the Carlo
Gambino quiet, just take it easy. The little old man
that everybody just stands up, the one who looks like

(02:22:34):
your grandfather. That's the person I thought was the most interesting.
It's almost like camouflage. It's somebody who who hides their
their lethality and always the nicest people, the nicest, very
low key, very there. I say, k fabe, let's go

(02:22:55):
to George on Long Island. You're on another side of
Midnight with Lionel Hyde.

Speaker 20 (02:23:00):
I'm an old Brooklyn boy. I'm approaching eighty. I'm an
old guy, but I'll never forget. My grandfather was the
proprietor of a club in Coney Island, and that's where
my family was from. It was the Coney Island Democratic Club.

Speaker 15 (02:23:13):
Which is a joke.

Speaker 20 (02:23:14):
Well, all it really was was a gambling house. My
grandfather was a proprietor, and no, I want to it's
really crazy. And he would serve corfee and food and
he cut the pot and he did a little gambling
and maybe a little loaning of money, and once in
a while he'd get arrested. Now I'm a court clerk.

(02:23:34):
Now it was a rotory court clerk, and my dad was.
It was a court clerk before me. So we grew
up to be quote honor citizens. So my grandfather we'd
have to go. We bailed him out a couple of times.

Speaker 12 (02:23:46):
He wasn't a bit you know.

Speaker 20 (02:23:48):
I'll tell you, nobody's listening to this at night. And
most of my relatives are dead. They'd kill me if
they were alive. But they'd kill me if they would, like,
really be pissed off at me.

Speaker 2 (02:24:00):
But no, no, I love the imagery. If they were
not dead, they would kill me.

Speaker 20 (02:24:04):
I like it, okay, but that anyway, my grandfather passes away.
He had money for me. I bought a house. I
lived on the stupid golf course. But anyway, before my
father passed away a number of years ago, and I said, Dad,
you don't remember when we used to go bail Grandpa
out and he goes and the stuff that he did,
it wasn't really serious crime. It was gambling and related stuff.

(02:24:28):
So he said to me, your grandfather they say he
was a crook because he loans some money out. Hump out.
The guys that work at City Bank, they loan money
out on their yah, they're twenty four percent. So who's
the real thief? That's my point.

Speaker 2 (02:24:42):
I never, I I you know, I will never as
long as I live, understand the whole notion of gambling.
We had a guy years ago growing up in the
It's funny when but before things became really you know,
thanks so lucky with General who who created families and
territories and organization. But in the South, in Tampa, it

(02:25:07):
was a very interesting group of people. We had Sicilians
and Cubans and all these folks. They all kind of
got along and there was a thing called bollita, and
bolita was everybody played it. They had yeah numbers in
a bag and they would actually shake this bag and
pull the numbers on. And this is how people they
made fortunes. And they kind of looked the other way

(02:25:31):
and that sort of thing. And then there were people
who were so this is the best part. They were
so quiet. You didn't know anything. You kind of had
an idea, maybe before anybody knew anything, but there was
this idea, maybe you can. You can appreciate this, George,
that if I'm doing this, I don't want you to

(02:25:54):
know it. I don't want you. I don't want to
walk around and go I'm not going to kiss you
in public with a pinky ring and say no, that's
called wearing it. I'm not going to do that. This
is what I don't understand. I think I'd be very
good at this because I would First of all, I
wouldn't want to associate with anybody. I would be the
most anti social. My social club would not exist. I

(02:26:18):
would not have a social club. I would not have
any Nobody would ever speak to it. Why are we speaking?
What are we shooting the breeze? Why are we doing this?
We only it's a need to know basis. Thank you, George.
I appreciate it. I mean, if I ran it, I
would have a very tight ship. And the first thing
is we don't talk about this. I mean the first

(02:26:40):
rule of fight clubs you don't talk about fight club.
It's a very very simple thing. How many people now
we know about the induction, we know about the cars,
we know about the Saint and the flame and the
we're not supposed to know that. I want secrecy, By God.
I want there to be honor, honor among thieves among men,

(02:27:03):
because after all, it's this secret society. Thanks to the movies,
thanks to organize, to social media, now everybody knows anything
and dog on it. There goes the fun. Eight hundred
eight four eight nine two two two more coming up
in the final segment on the final hour of Another
Side of Midnight with Me a line.

Speaker 1 (02:29:12):
The Other Side of Midnight with Vinyl entertaining and informative.

Speaker 5 (02:29:16):
On the Red Apple podcast Network, How.

Speaker 2 (02:29:41):
Righty Ligne up with you eight hundred and eight for
eight nine two two two In the last moments of
This Thing of Ours, look at this headline, Florida dad
thought using a leaf flower on his infant son would
be fun until he died. He killed a kid or

(02:30:01):
a leaf flower. They're not going to make a movie
about him. How about Brian Cooleburger or coburger, I should say.
The unsettling theory surfaces on why Brian Coburger chose the
house he is. Do we like him? No? No, this
is the one who don't again is it creepy? I

(02:30:26):
don't know what we started off on. What I intended,
at least initially, was this idea of why do we
find things fascinating when I used to as I told
you the story of organized crime, but also professional wrestling,
which changed my life.

Speaker 3 (02:30:45):
I learned everything.

Speaker 2 (02:30:47):
The idea of the heel, the bad guy. It wasn't
known wrestling was two people wrestling. It wasn't a bad guy,
and one of the most interesting things that ever happened
in the history and the annals of professional wrestling. His

(02:31:09):
name was George Wagner, gorgeous George. And this is a man.
After I talk about Prussian this is a man after
World War Two, when America had just clobbered Hitler, when
America was feeling brave and strong and masculine and great
and powerful. This guy comes along and has this act,

(02:31:33):
this gimmick where he's wearing bobby pins and he has
dyes his hair blonde, and he's sashetting around in a robe.
Sasha listened to me, and people went, Berzuka, what is
this and wrestling was forever changed. He was the heel,

(02:31:56):
he was the bad guy. They booed him, they loved
him because he was the bad guy. You didn't understand
the manichean good versus evil without the bad guy. And
the bad guy in some respects was more interesting because
you wanted to see him break the rules. And it

(02:32:16):
was something delicious about watching somebody who's the bad guy
and it's in us. And one of the reasons why,
which is the moral of the story, is that what
we think are the rules these clear guy. Listen, there
are things about people who are child murderers. I don't
think anybody's going to want to do the story about

(02:32:37):
Albert Fish, the cannibal and serial killer of the twenties.
Nobody's gonna that's not that's not of interest. But when
you talk about Jimmy Burke and Jimmy the Gent and
all these other stories of these these interesting people, al Capone,
John Gottie and others, irrespective of what you think of

(02:32:57):
what's right and what's wrong, you find he did fascinating.
And one of the reasons why is you must understand
that these laws, for the most part, really don't bother
you racketeering. Does that upset you now, I don't even
know what the hell I mean. I know what it is,
but most people say, I don't even know what that means.

(02:33:18):
And being a gangsta in any event, well, two of
the best ogs. Of course. I want to thank mister
bill Lee, and I also hold us to thank Jackson,
who did a tremendous job tonight stewarding the helm. Gentlemen,
thank you so much, and thank you for listening. Thank
you so much for lending your expertise and your inside.
You may follow me on YouTube at Lionel Nation and

(02:33:41):
on x at Linel Media, so we'll see you next week,
my friend. Thank you so much, and again, from the
bottom of my heart, thank you for listening. This is
your new best friend Lionel, reminding you these final words,
the monkey's dead, the show's over. Sue you dad.

Speaker 1 (02:33:57):
There the other side of Midnight with Lionel, entertaining and
informative

Speaker 5 (02:34:08):
On the Red Apple podcast Network.

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