Another Side of Midnight With Lionel -Obsession with Organized Crime

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The other side of Midnight with Vinyl entertaining and informative.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
On the Red Apple Podcast Network.

Speaker 3 (00:07):
Sure albody line though video and this is another side
of midnight. Eight hundred eight four eight two nine two
two two. Let me get this right, eight hundred and
eight four eight nine two two two two to as
many as many? And why we have eight hundred numbers anymore?
I have no idea surplicage. Indeed, my friends, welcome to

(00:29):
the sets. Well, I guess this is Sunday version, the
early morning version of this weekend edition of ours. I
want to discuss something which I find fascinating. I think
I've told you this before. I love human behavior, I
swear to you. I look around and I think, what
in the heck is this? What is what? What? Just

(00:55):
any kind of human behavior, especially when there were groups
of people anything? I love it? I just I love it.
Yesterday my wife and I went, we happened to a
wonderful place called Ort Farms. We went to a couple
of it's it's it's the Jersey. It's tis the season
to pick up our corn. I buy corn by the

(01:17):
by the case. I just there's nothing like it. Also,
Jersey tomatoes in the night. But this place, Ort Farm,
is very nice. It's in Long Valley, New Jersey, and
they have a petting zoo and kids are playing and
they have this these little mechanisms you can hit and
make noise. And I just I just sat and just watched.

(01:43):
I just observed, because I think human behaviors, especially when
children are allowed to be children, where there's this interaction,
where there's this thing called the country and sunflowers, we
just act differently, sometimes good, sometimes weird, as is the
case of tattoos. I will never understand tattoos as long

(02:03):
as I live, especially the fact that so many people
are getting these hideous sleeves of horror with some lead
paint inche Anyway, I digress. But something I like to
discuss is the way we handle death. And I want
to discuss something with you called auto morn. And there's

(02:24):
a lot. There's more to this story than you could
imagine yesterday. As you know, maybe maybe you knew this,
maybe you didn't know this. But there was a fellow
but they were Vinceton past story or pastor. He played
the beloved salvatory Big let's call him Big Puss, all right.

(02:48):
I don't want to I, even though I know I'm
saying it correctly, my natural and even that might have
been in correct, but my natural alarms go off. But
let's call him war big WIZZI. You know what I'm
talking about, Bumpin' Sierro. He played the Sopranos hit. He
died at the age of eighty. His death was confirmed yesterday.

(03:12):
He was found at his City Island, New York home
after friends had been able to reach him. His death
was reported to be from natural causes. And the first
part about me always says, well, we'll see about that.
It's just my natural suspicion for anything involving people who

(03:32):
are of note and the like. And there's there's so
much to talk about. There's the phenomenon of the Sopranos
and how it was the last time that we had
appointment TV. And also something perhaps that maybe you might
not think about when you are an actor in the
old days, that there was something wrong with you. Your

(03:54):
eye was a bit of skew, you had a funny pronunciation.

Speaker 4 (03:57):
In fact, after the decline or the cessation of silent movies,
a lot of these great actors and actresses had no
voice or had no thick, you know, Eastern European accents,
and they weren't to appropriate.

Speaker 3 (04:15):
But if there was something wrong with you not romp
something different normally it would be a disqualifier. Well, you know,
I could not believe the number of actors the characters
on the Sopranos had a distinctive sibilant or lisp like speech,

(04:40):
although technically in most of the accents were voices rather
than true lisps. But if you want to see, because
I can't help but listen to how people speak, mouths,
tongue thrusting, even the the Goathilian you know from from

(05:01):
from you know, think Gonzalez, but the the not the
excuse me, I don't want to say the worst, but
one of the most pronounced was the FBI agent Skip Lipari.
This was uh Woossy's a handler as it were played

(05:25):
by Lewis Lombardi. His speech his was the most pronounced
lisp barnun And when he and Woosy I'm sorry, I
don't want to alarm anybody spoke together. It was incredible.

(05:46):
I mean it was incredible. Johnny Sack, that actor or
that that particular character also huge. I'm sorry I shouldn't
say that not a huge list, but pronounced part man,
I mean to make it sound like it's negative. Soprano
James Gandlofini had this hush, he had this sh kind
of an impediment of swords. And then there was of

(06:07):
course poly Walnuts, who also had a cut of very
state high nasal but a very interesting sibilance and tongue thrust.
So I just that, just I thought was so interesting
to have so many actors normally disqualifiers, normally disqualifiers, one

(06:29):
would think from this, but you know that from nineteen
ninety nine this kills me. But the Sopranos from nineteen
ninety nine January to June of two thousand and seven,
that was it, just eight years? And did you know
a couple of things about this and we'll get into
this notion about this particular death in the moment. Did

(06:50):
you know? I'm sure you did, But did you know
that the Sopranos is probably more how do we say this,
probably more popular today than it was then by virtue
of internet, YouTube and others, and a lot of gen
Zers and the like are finding that it was so

(07:15):
interesting because they can't believe this was ever on quote
TV and I granted it was cable, but it was
they couldn't believe it where they would say things that
would be overtly racist or crude or violent, and it
was accepted. Not only that, it was probably the last

(07:36):
time that we had true, actual, true appointment TV. Maybe
maybe the last time. It's an incredible story. It just
fascinated me. Sunday nights, everybody the theme song the serialization,
and they talk about why was it so good? Why

(07:57):
was it not? It was fascinating. But one of the
biggest questions I have, and maybe you can answer this
is number one. Why is it that we have always
loved since the beginning of time? Bad people?

Speaker 5 (08:16):
Why?

Speaker 3 (08:17):
Why mobsters? None of these people were good people. None
Well people forget is that Tony Soprano was basically, I
don't use the word psychopath, but a treacherous, not a
good person. These people weren't smart, they weren't funny, they
weren't particularly talented. They were brutal and ruthless and just

(08:44):
nothing remotely redeeming. But we loved them and people liked them.
Why why there wasn't one character If you think about
it that you say, you know what I'd really like?
I mean deep down inside that how do I say

(09:05):
this somebody who wasn't just detestable. And the other issue
is the history of organized crime movies changed in nineteen
seventy two with The Godfather. Prior to that, anybody who
was involved in or any kind of movie, any kind
of depiction of organized crime, specifically the mafia as they say,

(09:27):
or the LCN, whatever you want, whatever you want to
call it, all of that, all of that was the
viewpoint from the guy on the corner, from the thug,
from the guy who was the actual how do I
say this, the person on the corner, on the level
of the street thug, not the operational hierarchy. That changed everything.

(09:54):
Godfather changed everything. In fact, people said suggested, not on
did law enforcement say this, but people in the restaurants
noticed this, but that the dress changed. People changed. Everything
changed drastically after that movie. And today there's this absolute

(10:15):
love affair, there's this plethora. Godfather was great, Godfather Too
was porphic Godfather THREI was an embarrassment. Then Goodfellas two
sort of kind of different but extremely critical movies in
the pantheon. When you see organized crime, you normally mean

(10:37):
you mean, you know Italian organized crime. So here is
the question which I find so fascinating, and maybe you
have as well. Maybe you do, maybe you don't. I
don't know, but I will tell you this much. What
is it about bad people that that incites you so much?

(10:59):
There are so many of these other wuldn't necessarily mention them,
but a lot of YouTube titles people who used to
be in the mob. Michael Franzis, by the way, Sonny Franzis,
or Franzi if nobody ever pronounces the name correctly, but me,
Michael Frenzies, Uh, Sammy the Bowl others. They first started

(11:21):
this thing, and now Franzis has transcended that. And they
invariably will say the same stories over and over, and
then you have this absolute they came out of the woodwork.
There's so many of these lesser known but I mean
hyper stylized, almost prototypical examples of you know, mobsters explaining

(11:53):
basically telling me if I hear the same Jimmy the
gent Burke story one more time, or Roy de Mayo
or the Gemini lounge, I mean it's the same. A
lot of them just repeat the same things. But here
is a story. What is the reason for this fascination.
Why do we like this? If the Sopranos were about

(12:17):
flower arranging or somebody who owns a gas station, nobody
would care. Honorable people working at a gas station, Nobody
cares about that. But the idea that there was sex
and drugs and mayhem, and more importantly, this is the
most important. This is something called auto morn. Auto morn
is when people pretend that every single death online in

(12:41):
the entertainment business in particular crushes them, affects them in
ways that they can't even explain. They can't explicate, they're
they're so hurt, and they have to post. Especially I
have a friend of mine who has a picture of
everybody who has ever lived. When does that person dies?

(13:02):
There's a picture on Facebook or Instagram of this person
kind of in the end a biz with this person
who died, Tony Bennett or I'm sure you know Vincent
Pastor to say, look at me, I knew them, I'm somebody,
I'm important. Look see I stood next to them. Look

(13:26):
he's got his arm on me. See look see this,
See I knew them. It's okay. But that, of course
is the power of Facebook, where we have to chronicle
every single thing that we do. And finally, finally, what was,
in your humble opinion, the greatest gangster mob whatever you

(13:53):
want to call it movie? And why? What were the
lesser knowns? And let's discuss this. What is it? What
is what is honest to God? What is the story?
The true story as to why we from an entertainment medium?
Why do we find people who are despicable interesting? Why

(14:15):
do women marry Richard Ramiris or one two or the
Menindaz brothers. Why do people Ted Bundy was married? I
believe yes? Why is it serial killers? Let us delve
into this aspect of the dark side of human behavior?
Eight hundred eight four eight nine two to two. This

(14:35):
is a line up with you on another side of Midnight.

Speaker 1 (14:39):
The Other side of Midnight with Linel entertaining and informative.

Speaker 2 (14:44):
On the Red Apple podcast Network.

Speaker 3 (14:46):
Sure wasn't that great? Wasn't that just a great I'm
telling you that was such a great, great, great show.
I watch it in its better and better as it marinates.
It's James Gandolfini, a real mess towards the end, but
a great actor. The whole ensemble was the ripping, the

(15:08):
whole thing worked. Not not every character was the riff figure,
not every moment, but but I you know, when when
David Chase would talk about the Sopranos, he always gave
his word, it's about filmily, it's not about family. It's
about a bunch of stories. Nobody cared about about aj
or Meadow and you know whether the she has an

(15:32):
African American boyfriend. Nobody cares about that. They want to
see shooting and death and treachery. And that's what it's about.
The question is why, though, why? I mean, it's just interesting.
I am fascinated and have been by serial killers. I
loathed these people, detest them. Nothing at all funny about them,

(15:55):
more interesting. But it's fascinating, fascinating in many respects because
of the fact of the of the of the darkness,
the depth, the fact that they should do a show
about radio stations. It would be so horrible, people wouldn't
even believe it happened. Let's go, let's go to the
phones and what was your In my very humble opinion,

(16:18):
I think the best movie in my lifetime, in my
generation was The Godfather Godfather One, just in terms of
the cinema, the story, everything, the lighting, it changed everything.
Godfather iiO equally is interesting, not the same, but on

(16:38):
a different level, a different level. Godfather three was an abortion.
It was so horrid and goodfullas of course wonderful, and
also was interesting about how stories veer. There's a book
called The Godfather Companion by Peter biskynd I have a
copy of it might be out of print. And the

(17:00):
author looked at the book by Mario Poozle, which is terrific,
the book, the screenplay and the movie, and how there
were inconsistencies, how things are left out and the Godfather.
For example, the character that was really just not even

(17:20):
mentioned was Luca Browsie, Oh my god. In the book
he was just I mean, he was just evil, played
by Lenny Montana. Ostensibly he was the Zebra Kid. He
was a professional wrestler himself, purportedly a hit or a
button man himself who got his badge straightened out. From

(17:43):
what we hear, goodfellas interesting to I knew some how
do I say this some members of that particular story
perhaps tangentially and a lot of it was not correct.
It was, but but it doesn't matter. It's not a documentary.

(18:05):
But what were the great stories, And why is it
that I'm telling you the story which I will never
How do I say this? What Hollywood has yet to
really explore was the West side where I am here
in Hell's Kitchen, the westiest state of grace is with

(18:25):
Sean Penn and uh Sean Penn. Oh and Gary Omen
was superb, absolutely superb. And that was another aspect, another part.
It's just never. I don't know why we don't. It

(18:47):
doesn't catch it. It's the richest characters of them all.
And I know so many people and many of them
think died, but who live in where in this area
where they all remember this? And each of these people despicable,
theoretically psychopathic, but fascinating. And the question is why is

(19:08):
this forbidden fruit? Is it the outlaw story? Let's go
to the phone show. He eight hundred and eight four
eight nine two two two Loretta in Brooklyn. You're on
another side of midnight with Lionel.

Speaker 6 (19:20):
Good morning, Lionel. Whytta?

Speaker 3 (19:24):
Fine?

Speaker 6 (19:25):
That's good to know. I remember the Black Hand movie.
It was a black and white movie on TV. Ernest
borgnine was a character actor, but he played a cop
trying to infiltrate the mob.

Speaker 3 (19:41):
Is this about Petrosino. This isn't about Petrosino, is it.

Speaker 6 (19:47):
I don't remember that name. I just know the movie.
The name of the movie was a Black Hand, and
that's the first mob movie I remember because it was
in black and white. We had black and white TV
and Ernest borgnine was playing the cop infiltrating the mob.

(20:08):
And whenever they made a hit, they signed it with
the imprint of a black Hand.

Speaker 3 (20:13):
Well that's interesting, that's I'm looking right now. The original
one of the Black Hands was from nineteen fifty. You
see the one You're Born. This is with Gene Kelly
of all people, and then oh, here we go. He
did not star in The Black Hand, but he famously
played real life police lieutenant. Oh yeah, Joseph Petrosino. I

(20:35):
was right in in the movie Pay or Die. It
was called nineteen sixty where he paid played Joseph Petrosino.
This was the famous New York City cop who went
to Sicily and was killed. And the Black Hand or
Lamado Neiro where these were the original extortionists in Sicily

(21:00):
who came to this country. And believe it or not,
it was the the the mob, the mafia so to speak,
who helped a recent newcomers, for example Don Finucci who
was in the Godfather. He was black Hand and they
would leave this imprint of the black hand for either

(21:24):
for Pizzo, for extortion. So it wasn't the movie, but
it was close enough.

Speaker 6 (21:29):
And called himself a guinea pig because he was Italian
and cops were known as pigs. And he said, I'll
be I'll be the guinea pig.

Speaker 3 (21:40):
I understand that. And you know the story behind Petrosino.
In fact, I believe in New York there was still
there was either a park or something that was named
after him. I thank you for your call. It's a
it's a it's an interesting story, especially how the real story,
the real history of organized crime itself, which is very interesting.

(22:03):
How the three aspects, the three demographics of organized crime,
the Sicilians, the Irish and Jews, and when they came
to this country, and what do you think they all
had in common? If you think about this, all of
them Sicilians, not Italians, Sicilians, Irish, Jews knew what governmental

(22:28):
oppression was. The feudal land barons that were kept down.
They didn't have anybody to go to, nobody to look after,
nobody to handle their particular beefs, their problems and organized crime.
There wasn't one who organized crime then per se, But
when it came to this country it changed. It's funny

(22:49):
the Jews were the first ones to leave that. There
was this book called Tough Jews. It's great. From a
blue culture to a garage Shapiro to Oh, there's so
many really interesting characters. Again not lauding them as good people,
but interesting. They pretty much got out of the biz

(23:09):
as soon as possible, followed by the Irish who went
into police work and government and various political groups. And
the last to stay in were the Sicilians. And the reason,
supposedly the reason is again because Sicily, by virtue of

(23:29):
its nature, had been taken over. It had been it
had been ravaged and conquered by everyone from the Carthaginians,
the Phoenicians, the French. In fact that Canadians would have
probably gone there, and theoretically Joe Bonano in his book

(23:50):
Man of Honor refers to this story. It's a tad apocryphal,
but there's a story that everybody learns of the hatred
the of Sicily, Sicilians, but also the mafia. Then for
the French, and there's all these little anecdotes. One of

(24:13):
them was that during the war they would sometimes hold
up a chickpea and it's pronounced chechi ceci, but French
could not pronounce that, so they would hold this out
and see what is this and if somebody were to
mispronounce it, there's ah, you're a French dude, and they
would kill you on site. A tad harsh, to be sure,

(24:36):
but the story is in the fourteenth fifteenth century you
can always embellish you to an extent. A young girl
was savaged, raped what have you by a French Sicilian
girl was attacked sexually abused by a French officer or
soldier or something along those lines. They were read to explode.

(25:01):
And the story also goes that the lieutenant who did
this slapped the father who tried to address this and
seek honor. Anyway, the story goes again, most apocryphal went crazy.
They say we're going to fight back, and they had placards,
they had phrases, they had this this this chant the

(25:21):
shibbleth oft the time, and it was morte a la
franchia ita m a f a I A m a
f i A what am I m a f I
a morte and it means death to France is Italy's cry.
And that became so they say the word mafia. Well

(25:46):
not really, because there was another word in mafioso, which
meant strong, brave. There was an Arab component because there's
so much if you if you look at the infiltration,
the influence of every conceivable uh, demographic and ethnicity and
culture on Sicily. It's wild, the African, the Middle East.

(26:09):
In fact, remember the scene from was The True Crimes,
the one scene between Dennis Hopper and Christopher Walking. Remember
I can't go through it now, but it's very interesting
and anyway, a lot of this is there's a kernel
of truth in it. What's even more interesting is when

(26:32):
you look at the connection between our government and these people.
In other word, mafia really didn't it wasn't really a
big It's not a big word here in Sicily, oh yeah, absolutely,
but not here. It's not an American term. And after
post World War two he had named like a Cologuro,

(26:55):
Don Vizzini and Cassio Ferro and all these guys who
were pretty rough characters. But but this is also interesting,
and this has a perfect analog to what we saw
in Cuba. At the time, the mafia had an absolute

(27:15):
detestation for Mussolini, and Mussolini's number one, the interrogator, the
torturer in chief, was more and this guy was he
would just I mean torture and basically caused a lot
of the Mafiosi to leave to fleet. And they always

(27:39):
wanted to come back. They always either to flee or
to become neutralized. Well, world War two comes along, let's
make a deal. Look at Cuba. Look what happened. You
have You have Battista, who was the friend, the friend
of everybody from Mayor Lansky too, you name it. Even

(28:03):
bugsy Cegul at the time says, are you sure about this?
You know, we don't know these people. Oh what are
you talking about? We own Cuban. Well you may owe
him now and lo and behold what comes up later on?
That's right Castro and what was the problem that the
mafia had. Of course Castro and anything they could do
to remove Gastro they would do. So they became part

(28:26):
and parcel with oss later Cia, Operation Mongoose. It all
works together. It's fascinating, Operation Gladio. Remember one thing there
there were some folks in the organized crime business, Vito Gentlemens,
who were great patriots, absolutely loved this country. Many served

(28:48):
in World War two. Uh, and we're believe it or not, staunch.
I don't want to say Republican because that's not the term,
but very very patriotic. And during World War II, you
they said, we know sicily, we can help you. But
here's the deal. After this was done. After this was done,

(29:11):
the idea was that, well, what do we get. We
will allow you to maintain your positions. So the United
States government, theoretically, it is believed, helped install these very
people back into into the power that they enjoyed prior
to Mussolini. Oh, it's it is. It is so interesting

(29:32):
the way the government remember the Normandy remember the ship
that was overtured, that that that capsize on the West side.
They thought it was saboteurs. It wasn't. Joe Sachs Lenza
who ran the the the docs met with Mayor Lansky
and then Lucky Luciano who was in Dana Moore at
the time, and they made a deal with them. They said, listen,

(29:52):
if you can help us get to the bottom of this.
It was it wasn't sabotage at all, but they didn't
want them to think of this. So Lucky Luciano says, great,
I'll help you, and we supposedly fixed this. Then when
he expected a pardon, they said, oh no, no, no,
we're just gonna we're going to exile you. We're going
to deport you to Castella Marde and he goes, oh no,
so he had to leave. He thought it was a deal.

(30:14):
It was Dewey who double crossed them. Oh it's it is.
The level of stories are so fascinating and one of
the one of the last aspects. You cannot talk about
the JFK assassination without understanding the roles of people like
Santo Trafficanti and uh and Carlos Marcello and others. It

(30:38):
was a different world than it was so powerful. You
know that Frank Costello, nobody knew who he was, Francesco Castilia.
They didn't. They thought he was Irish Costello. He was
a he was they loved him in society.

Speaker 7 (30:52):
He was just.

Speaker 3 (30:53):
This, this great man and they didn't know. This is
prior to Key Folver, prior to the McLellan commission, and
with Jaego Hoover, Jaiogo Hoover had no interest whatsoever whatsoever
in explaining what was happening. In fact, many people believe
that particular story that Roy Kohne, who they say was

(31:13):
at the bottom of this, supposedly has stories or pictures
of Jajegar Hoover either an address or some compromising position,
and they believe later on that somehow this was the
this was the trump card, pardon the expression that people had.
And so when organized crime came along, Frank Costello also,

(31:36):
by the way, understood that Hoover was basically a degenerate
gambler along with his girlfriend Clyde Tolsen, and he'd give
him tips on how to beds or whatever. So when
it came to doing an expose on American organized crime,
how can Jaego Hoover say, yes, we have a problem
in this country organized crime. Excuse me, you're the head
of you're the national police chief, so to speak. Oh

(31:59):
so instead he's, well, forget that, it's communism. Yeah, that's it. Communism,
that's the problem. So it's it's so fascinating, it's I mean,
it's history, it's it didn't really hit the mythic because remember,
prior to Keith Ober probably prior to the Mcleonic Commission.

(32:22):
Nobody knew anything about this, nobody knew who these people were.
Then later then the Godfather came, Joe Colombo. It goes
on and on, and it is so interesting and it
created kind of its old own folklore. Let me tell you,
in our country, we have certain certain I'll call it

(32:43):
a folklore to an extent. Though you you can argue
all day long whether organized crime is still big, but
we have the American cowboy, We've got the biker, you know,
the easy rider type, and we have the mobs. And
this is something that is part of our it's it's

(33:06):
been a part of our our love. Nothing captures nothing
captures us. And remember it started with the Godfather. It
started with It was the first time you showed or
they tried to show the upper echelons of it, not
the street level, but the upper echelons, who was in charge,
the stories behind. And one thing about the Godfather also

(33:28):
very very little cussing, very minimal deminimus nudity. There was
the Apollonia scene and Godfather won. I think I'm not
going to tell you the word, but they really didn't.
How do I say this? They did not use an.
It really was I think pretty mild. By the way,

(33:51):
one of the best pieces of trick photography ever was
when Luca Rozzi Lenny Montana was stabbed in the hand
at the Edison Hotel and it's it's I mean, it's
it's so interesting. One of the best movies. Do you
know about the interesting interesting fact that when when Francis
Ford Coppola he went through Hell, Charlie Bluehorn and Bob Evans,

(34:15):
these people from Paramount, they were they were horrible. They
wanted Robert Redford and Anthony Quinn and they said no.
And then when they showed him Michael Albacino, they said,
you're crazy. He's a midget. You're nuts. So when they
showed him the first dailies, it was his first scene
with Bono Sarah remember from the The Mamas. And by

(34:38):
the way, uh, Marlon Brando was doing Frank Costello's voice theoretically,
but they didn't know what this was. And the line was,
what did you like this with a with a cigarette lighter?
What is this? They never they never saw this before,
and Brando had to guarantee he was He was not

(34:59):
exactly the famous Brando he was later on in any event,
Francis Ford Coppola realized, I'm done with this. I'm through.
I mean, it's gonna be tomorrow. They're gonna just canvas
and just shut it down. So they cut the Salazzo
scene with Alan Terry and Sterling Hayden as another character.

(35:23):
When they saw that this is the paramount as it goes,
you got it. You're in because what you saw is
what al Pacino did his character. You saw him go dark,
because at first it was kind of like a buoyant,
kind of a happy, kind of an innocent sort of

(35:43):
he was really the he was really the powerhouse. But
you saw him go dark, and he was never he
never came back. It is so interesting.

Speaker 8 (35:54):
It is so.

Speaker 3 (35:57):
And I'm not saying this just to create eat fallse
senses of complexity, but it's truly that great. Uh, let's
go to Let's go to Paul in Connecticut. Paul, you're
on another side of Midnight with.

Speaker 5 (36:10):
Lionel Well, good morning, Linels. When I was young, I
got a tour of the FBI building with my dad
and I was hooked. After the g man came out
with a with a machine gun and opened up his
suitcase that took it out of there and uh his
machine gun. One of my favorite movies is al Pacino
and uh oh, trying to think of the name right now.

Speaker 9 (36:34):
Oh, that would help.

Speaker 5 (36:35):
Where he's in. He's in Miami as an undercover agent
Donnie Brasco.

Speaker 3 (36:41):
Yeah, that was so. That was a Joe p. Of
Stone book. There was so much that was wrong with
that book, so much.

Speaker 5 (36:51):
I didn't read the book. But why it reminds me
of the Islands and the Bahamas. You know they have
the guys down there by.

Speaker 3 (37:01):
The way that it wasn't really Miami. A lot of
it was in Tampa and Tampa area at the time,
and most of it Donny Brascal was here. There's no islands.
I don't know what you're talking about with that. You
should read the book.

Speaker 10 (37:11):
Did you ever read the book?

Speaker 5 (37:12):
The Godbob Guys down there makes me think of a
bottle of Don Perry on nineteen seventy orfore.

Speaker 3 (37:19):
Hey, Paul, thank you so much, my friend. I love this.
I'm trying to make a I think a critical boyn
you're number one. Please read the book. Please read the book.
Have you read The Godfather? It's incredible, It's one of
the best books ever, and by the way, editorial license
is one thing. Joe Pistone, by the way, who played

(37:40):
Donnie Rascal, his you know what is signed for him
to befriend Sonny Black and to know they were going
to kill him. You knew, he knew. In fact, they
found Sonny Black with his hands cut off, indicating you
introduced him. You you extended your hand to this. There's

(38:04):
a book by a friend of mine, Jack Garcia, who
infiltrated this as well. That that book, I think it is.
And by the way, Pistone has played that one with
the glasses. I mean, he milked that baby for all
its work. We're still seeing him, we're still listening to him.

(38:25):
But read the book and the books are very interesting.
Same thing with wise guy Nick Poledgie. The story is not.
I could tell you some stories behind the scenes, which
I think are even more interesting. Pete on Staten Island,
you're on another side of Midnight with Lionel High Lionel.

Speaker 11 (38:42):
You know that movie Payer Die in nineteen sixty with
Ernest Ogemin.

Speaker 7 (38:48):
Yes, my pas played the part.

Speaker 3 (38:52):
And are you underwater? I can't hear you?

Speaker 7 (38:58):
Okay?

Speaker 11 (39:00):
Now, my cousin played sal Almeta. He played Protective with
Ernest bog nine. He's the guy that was in the
U the uh dry cleaners and he shot the guy
because he called them Fatso that was like one of
the biggest parts in the movie. And my cousin he

(39:23):
died in an auto accident a track. The trailer tipped
over onto a p his Volksweg and he was crushed.

Speaker 3 (39:31):
That's interesting how we're very into this the life and
times of your of your cousin. It's interesting. Hey, Pete,
I thank you so much, my friend. Please call me again.
Tom and Chicago. You're on another side of Midnight with Lionel.

Speaker 7 (39:44):
Yeah, Lionel, good sir, all right. I like uh people.
I think I think people are fascinated with uh these
kind of stories of the dark side because people is
living a long normal life is boring. You know, these
guys ain't worried about it's not worried about four one

(40:05):
k on the street. They're doing strange things, killing people
with no consequences and all that. We love it. So
wait a.

Speaker 3 (40:16):
Minute, what about a story about just a serial killer.
It's not the same. There's nothing romantic about that. There's nothing.
I mean, you can see a story about you know,
Ted Bundy. And also sometimes there are some black ansters
who I think in some respects, you know, Bumpy what's
his name or what I mean? Those are very interesting too.

(40:36):
But and Irish mob stories. There's something about Italian mob stories.
What is this. Explain to me how a woman can
fall in love with the guy on death row who's
a murderer. Explain that?

Speaker 7 (40:53):
Well, first of all, she's a woman. He can't help
explain them. And uh, these guys, these these women be
like like you say, bikers, drug dealers, ain't no, they
bad guys and still love them. Well look at you, yeah, yeah,
what I'm talking about here is you You ain't gonna
go with a hooker and say I'm marry you. You know,

(41:15):
the normal person.

Speaker 3 (41:16):
You'd be surprised today, you'd be surprised, and they may
not be called a hooker person.

Speaker 7 (41:24):
Yeah, that's the that's the that's the influence of these
movies though, that's the influence.

Speaker 3 (41:31):
Of these But it goes back even it goes back
even more when we had the Great Train Robbery and
McCain's been a Billy the Kid and and Bonnie and
Clyde and uh, John Dillinger and you know this is
there's something I I think. First of all, it's interesting

(41:51):
number one. Number two, the difference between fame and infamy
are fleeting. It's just no fame, uh does not really
mean good. Infamy doesn't necessarily mean bad. I don't think
we can we can tell one from the other. But
it's but it also tells us.

Speaker 7 (42:11):
Go ahead, sir, if the in Chicago, al Capone, you know,
is steel like crazy. You know what I'm saying. You like,
he murdered people. He did all these things that people
still fascinated.

Speaker 8 (42:22):
They got tours, but you know what he did.

Speaker 3 (42:24):
He murdered people that were in the in the business,
so to speak. He opened up soup kitchens. He was
by the way, he wasn't the first. He wasn't the
first flamboyant, but close to it. This is a guy
who became before there was John Gotti, there was al Capone.
And you talk about living this miserable life to die

(42:47):
of tertiary syphilis. Did you ever see him towards the
end of his life, Oh my god, you could see it, Rabbit.
He was like forty seven years old. You know that
he hit his peak at the age of like twenty six. Right,
well he was, well he's got a dope dealer. He
was a little bit different. It was a little bit different,

(43:08):
more of a bootleg.

Speaker 7 (43:09):
Now as and now these guys get money early.

Speaker 3 (43:13):
But you know who the people are. Now, you know
who the criminals are now, AI big Tech, Hey listen, Tom,
thank you, my friend. The idea of the actual old
time thug hood type. I don't know if this has
any carllary today and I just don't think it. I
don't know. I don't think it would work necessarily today.
Eight hundred and eight four eight nine two two too.

(43:35):
We're talking about the greatest mob of movies and what
is this thing that humans love about organized crime and
the like? This is Lionel with you on Another side
of Midnight.

Speaker 1 (43:47):
The Other side of Midnight with Lionel entertaining and informative.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
On the Red Apple podcast network.

Speaker 3 (43:55):
Doesn't that do something to you? It affects you this.
I don't think people say this about young people. I
don't think they understand what that movie was about. It
was incredible. It absolutely positively was incredible. The effect it
had not so much not just on the story. By

(44:16):
the way, Mario Pouso got so many things, right, he
was a degenerate gambler. So they say his original book
was a Fortunate Pilgrim or something where Don Corleone was
just mentioned in passing. They say it was a great book.
But do yourself a favor. Read The Godfather and read

(44:36):
you'll see different things Luca Brasi. But they can explain
whenever Mario Puzso talks about a sex scene or any
kind of a fight scene, it is so how do
I say this? It is so exquisitely detailed to the

(44:59):
point where you're I wonder if this is a little
bit of a statement about him. Now anyway, the reason
why we the reason why Vin Tipastori died, you know,
as you know, and people are going to be, of
course on YouTube or on social media, acting like this
is the word. And by the way, he said he
was eighty years old. I didn't know he was eighty
years old. I don't know how old I thought. I

(45:20):
guess it makes sense. But they're going to act like
this was the worst thing in their life. One in particular,
I know, is probably going through every picture He's got
to say, where do I I've got to have a
picture of him somewhere so I can post it on
Facebook to say, see, look, I knew him, I stood
next to him. I never understood that. It's kind of ghoulish.

(45:41):
It's weird, very very strange. But he was great and
we appreciate them. But watch the reaction because remember a
get another subdirectory to the story is the effect that
social media has on everything, on everything. It's I wish
I could show you the people that I know who

(46:03):
were out of their minds, who were some of the
most I don't want to say boring people. Okay, I'll
say it boring people non the script, but if you
read their Facebook page, you think these lived the most
exciting life. You can imagine the fun, the excitement, the drinking.
It's bizarre. That's that's all I will say. Our number

(46:26):
is eight hundred and eighty four eight nine two too too.
I want to talk more about this, But also I
don't know, and I'm getting at that age I think
where I am with the dage where nothing is good
like the old enough bad, and I make movies like
they used to. I don't, But can you think of anything?
Maybe Star Wars, maybe something that had the effect that

(46:49):
The Godfather had, but not only that, from just in
terms of organized crime and law enforcement as well. It
was incredible And why do we have this focus? Could
there be another mob movie worth its weight? And why
they really need to do one on the Philly mob,

(47:10):
the scarful group. That's the story. That's another one that's
a little bit twisted with a weird kind of an
angle to it. This is Lineup with You eight hundred
eighty four eight nine two two two our number two
coming up on another side of midnight. I want to
hear from you, the.

Speaker 1 (47:27):
Other side of midnight with Linel entertaining and informative.

Speaker 2 (47:31):
On the Red Apple podcast Network.

Speaker 3 (47:34):
How aboudy lineup with you? This is our number two
of this thing of ours eight hundred and eight four
eight nine two two two. This is another side of midnight.
Fitz's past story died. He played big, you know. And
by the way, he is not to be confused with
little little whoosy as it were, who was Malunga? And anyway,

(47:59):
there's all this background information and the line I guess
to where he got that name from. Imagine, of all
the names, this is the one you're stuck with. Okay,
fair enough, fair enough, And the question that I continue
to ask is, why is it that we as a
society find is fascinating. Take for example, the movie Scarface.
I think that was one of the dumbest movies ever.

(48:19):
First of all, I know a little bit about it.
That albat You know, this is the worst Cuban accent
I've ever heard in my life. He's Mexican, he's cheach muddy.
Eh so, hello to my little friend, little friend, I'm
a couca road.

Speaker 7 (48:36):
What is this? This is like a.

Speaker 3 (48:41):
Chicano?

Speaker 5 (48:42):
What is this?

Speaker 3 (48:43):
It's the worst. And I know I know of what
I speak. And there's one thing I know is that
Guanito's and that that ain't it. But they went nuts
over that movie. They loved it. Why I couldn't stand
it was stupid f Murray Abraham. Sometimes you have to

(49:06):
ask the review. But it's the same thing. He's the
bad guy, he's this you know, hi what Miami vite now?
Miami vice.

Speaker 12 (49:20):
Now?

Speaker 3 (49:20):
That was important during Florida during the cocaine years. Oh man,
that was that was another story that was Silicon Valley
that changed everything. And that was kind of like the
romanticized version Smugglers, Blues Umber, Glen Fry and and all
of this, Uh, there was a there's a certain degree

(49:44):
of kind of like romanticism to that. It's just it's
so it's so interesting why that becomes the focus of
our concern, why that permeates our our culture and the like.
And I also want to tell you that the that
the the in our culture, the sopranos is just unbe believable.

Speaker 10 (50:10):
You know.

Speaker 3 (50:10):
It's also interesting is that in certain parts of Sicily
they have references like in Corleone, if if you go,
they have pictures and reminiscent of the Godfather. I think,
how courteously you even you're doing this, But if you

(50:30):
really want to get into it. Also this is check
out the difference between the regular type of mafia that
people talking about and the Kamara and the Dagda. This
is this is a whole another story. And the Camara
and Toto Rina and uh Provenzano and these these folks

(50:52):
are from another planet. It's I mean, this is this
is who was it when when they go on the
lamb for thirty years, which is ridiculous, but anyway, of
course they were. They pay people off. But this is
this had nothing really to do with anything involving I

(51:15):
guess hive living. This was a rough way to live,
I mean a rough way to live, and it's still
bigger than anything you can imagine. And people argue, all
doing what about American? Who knows about American organized Graham?
Good luck with that, have a nice day. Let others

(51:35):
fill you in on that. All I know is there's
something about this, and there's something so fascinating and this.
I love it when when somebody also loves the affected
version of this. Who wants to be I've known so much?
This is this is interesting. So many folks who are

(51:56):
of course of New York origin, who take on these
almost like caricatures. Oh, forget about it. It goes you're Jewish,
I mean, not that you're Argentinian. Why are you acting
like this? Because they love this. It defines something which

(52:18):
I'm trying to get to the core of eight four
eight nine. To Lulu and Florida, you're on another side
of Midnight with Lionel.

Speaker 9 (52:27):
Hello, Linel.

Speaker 13 (52:29):
I love this topic and I love all the Italian words.
Oh well, I'm Italian. I grew up in New York.

Speaker 3 (52:38):
You're you're Italian American.

Speaker 13 (52:40):
Italian American. Yes, But I've always loved observing human behavior
as well as growing up, I would listen to my
dad and my uncle sitting around the table, pounding on
the table, talking about all their friends. They all had
these little nicknames, you know, like Nickel or Joey the Fish,

(53:03):
and I loved it and I never forgot that. But
as far as why people are so enthralled with the
mafia and the Italians, there is a contrast between the
bad stuff they do and the despicable things. But the

(53:25):
culture itself is beautiful, the language, the music, the food.
That is part of why it's romanticized. I think.

Speaker 3 (53:39):
I don't understand.

Speaker 13 (53:41):
Well, yeah, well it doesn't seem like it's not you
don't put that together with somebody, you know, knocking someone
off or shoot or like in The Godfather. One of
my favorite scenes was the guy that was in and
I forget his name, and with the horses head, I.

Speaker 3 (54:04):
Mean, make him an offer. You know that's that story?
Well that's do you know that that was a real
horse's head and they got that horse's head from a
I think it was a type of a of a
not a butcher, not not butcher of horseman, but somebody

(54:26):
who is who was making processed whatever it was and
it was actually frozen. They had to use glycerine to
make it not tacky, and uh, John what was his
name who played that character had to sit in this
goop for a while. But it's interesting to note also

(54:47):
when people and I love when people say it, and
either way, I thank you so much for your call.
When people say I'm Italian, and that's very nice, and
you can see I've ever been in Italy. No, you
speak Italian? No, And I don't want to go into
the specifics of what people say. I've got a friend
of mine who claims to speak fluent Italian and it's unrecognizable.

(55:08):
It's not even I don't even know if it's under
what dialect it even it even follows, it's not even
anywhere near it. Is it bronx, I don't know what
it was. There are people who represent Romans and the
idea of the Italian who take great umbrage at this,
and they consider themselves to be Patrician and almost almost

(55:32):
to the point of beyond everything. So even within the
notion of what we call Italian and Italian American, the
same way we do it with the Irish. The people
I know who can't speak Irish or Gaelic. They never
been to Ireland. They have a last name, they might
be a Callahan, but that's it. But they claim that they.

Speaker 5 (55:56):
Are.

Speaker 3 (55:56):
How do I say this, that they are part of
the culture, and perhaps maybe they are. Are you know,
Sunday pasta with the family. That's great. It's also kind
of an americanization sometimes, which is also wonderful too. People
love the same way people love to wear a jersey
a team. I'm on this team, this is my team.

Speaker 7 (56:17):
This, this.

Speaker 3 (56:21):
Defines me. I would venture to say that there are
aspects of the American Italian American culture if you will
that it would be unrecognizable in Italy. They wouldn't know
what this was. They would they have no idea what
you're talking about. It is perhaps by an extended subject.
When you talk to Africans about the notion about being black,

(56:44):
if you're in any country where most, if not all,
people are black within the continent, I should say the
black distinction doesn't mean anything. It's presumed. And what's interesting
also to hear how so many African and the Native
Africans be careful that people take it the wrong way.

(57:07):
Have nothing to do with American African Americans, they say
they don't recognize each other, which is another part. I
love this fascinating, this clannish, this distinction about who we are,
and even even within groups of people Dominicans versus Puerto Ricans,

(57:31):
and oh my god, it is if I met somebody
who landed from another planet and said, let me tell
you what we do, it would take me forever just
to explain this. Absolutely, Let's go to uh, let's go
to David David in New Jersey, or on another side

(57:52):
of mid Nightwood, Lionel.

Speaker 14 (57:54):
I'm a good morning, great topic, you know, on a
bunch of topics. My great I'm sixty five. So my
great grandmother you came here from Sicily, and immediately everyone
was addressed as that we're no longer we're not Italian Americans,
We're American Italians.

Speaker 8 (58:11):
Anybody. That's what she said.

Speaker 14 (58:13):
You know, they wanted us to assimilate the word mafia
and Sicilian the word there's a word maya, maya, and
that's my daughter.

Speaker 8 (58:26):
Wrong, I'm sorry, wrong, wrong, wrong, Can I.

Speaker 7 (58:29):
Spell it for you?

Speaker 3 (58:30):
The word is phelia and this is a.

Speaker 8 (58:33):
This I'm sorry about that pronunciation.

Speaker 3 (58:36):
No, no, no, And this was a reference to Initially
the story that I said, there was a bit of
apocryphal about the girl who was raped by the French souls.
Direct mafiusu is a whenever you hear the ooh, like
bead bag do pitch need do when you hear the ooh,
that's Sicilian. And in eighteen sixty three there was a

(59:00):
called e mafiusi de la Vicadia about prison inmates. The
word meant strong, bold, bravado, not criminal. A horse that
was mafius meant fast and my fi mafia. No, that's
that's not true.

Speaker 14 (59:20):
That's people say that when the hoodlums would come, they
would run to the police, mafia, mafia. They had my daughter,
my daughter when we were kids doing a Tori Gilliana.

Speaker 7 (59:30):
It's okay.

Speaker 14 (59:31):
So when you talk about the horse head in the bed,
I always had the great idea. It's like, how come
somebody doesn't make a pillow like that, like a horse
head pillow, that would be a great nomalty.

Speaker 3 (59:42):
You have a wit about you that is contagious and
it's dangerous, and I hope you always treated carefully. Thank you, David.
I mean that you are a witch that is scary, frightened.

Speaker 14 (59:55):
Don't forget the Godfather about drugs, because it was very
true when Sonny said that if we don't get into
what somebody can, and they say that bring down too
much heat. That is what wrecked organized crime.

Speaker 8 (01:00:07):
I think it really was.

Speaker 14 (01:00:08):
From the seventies, thank you, thank you very much.

Speaker 3 (01:00:11):
Part of it, part of that's true, part of it's not.
One of the biggest jokes is how they say, oh no,
we got to say out of drugs sicily from Turkey,
from the from the when when the heroin was processed?
Are you kidding me? There's one thing which, unfortunately, and

(01:00:34):
I hate to say this, but well, I don't hate
to say it. I don't know why I say. I
hate to say it. If you are a criminal, you
say we must do things that make us the most profit.
We may not necessarily suffer it istionally, but one of

(01:00:54):
our underlings what destroyed If you want to say that
organized crime was the Rico Statute, not drugs. Drugs were fine.
I'm not going to mention the names, but they were.

Speaker 1 (01:01:07):
The other side of Midnight with Lionel entertaining and informative
on the Red Apple podcast network.

Speaker 3 (01:01:15):
A writing your line up with your eight hundred eight
four eight nine two two two eight hundred eight four
eight nine two two two if you just tuned in,
it's one of the I just love aspects of human
behavior and how we have these. I guess this interest

(01:01:35):
artistically in the dirty, the underbelly, the taxi driver degenerates, killers,
organized crime, and how some things don't make don't make it.
I still say that the Westies TJ. English is one

(01:01:57):
of the most fascinating stories, completely and totally worth note.
And the stories I've heard from people from the great
Mike Shean and who was a great New York City
ex retired cop on absolute treasure, Joe Coffee. Uh, these

(01:02:20):
were These are people who sounded like cops, looked like cops,
acted like cops. They just they had a sound to them.
With all due respect to people who are enjoying the
benefits of diversity and a kind of a a more
of a hetero genius form of police, I like cops

(01:02:41):
who sounded like cops, looked like cops, the whole Popeye Doyle,
Eddy Egan, you know that sort of thing. Well, look
at look at this. Look at the notion of the
French connection. The French connection was of course about Popeye
Doyle theoretically. But Gene Hackman was a scoundrel. He was
a bad guy. But who was like off Kojak was

(01:03:06):
sort of he was a rough and tumble guy, a
good guy. But nobody wants to see Adam twelve Joe Friday, No, nobody.
Nobody wants to see it. But the best people in
the world today, the people who are the most absolutely,
completely completely devoid of any kind of humanity, and that

(01:03:29):
is of course Silicon Valley. And what you're also going
to be seeing is way till this is kind of
a side here. Wait to see what happens to AI
fortunes and hedge funds that are going to just collapse.
There's something to be said, and we never we never

(01:03:49):
really learned, so to speak. One could argue, and this
might be premature, but you have to have something that
you can explain. Forget what Warren Buffett said. He says,
I don't understand this. He was talking about Crypto also,
I don't want to understand this. But as for another
story eight hundred and eight four eight nine two too too.
I think there's something also to be said. It's fascinating

(01:04:11):
about people who represent Again when somebody is evil, they
are famous for being evil, And the difference between fame
and infamy are identical. They're the same thing. What's the difference.
Remember in the old days, this is on a much

(01:04:32):
minor level, when the Stones came along, and the and
the the the animals. Compared to the Beatles, the Beatles
were considered clean cut, clean cut, my arse, they were
probably worse. But it's the perception of things. It's the way,
the way we think. There's all this again, this lore

(01:04:56):
of organized crime today, and what's all so fascinating? Wh's
really interesting? And I guess it's it's kind of oxymoronic,
how there are so many people making doing so many well,
doing so well, whether one were they on social media
by talking about something which theoretically is a secret society.

(01:05:22):
It's a secret where nobody knows anything. I remember one
time there was I was watching a special on the
Inraga Da and that Camara, but in Dragada that might
be bigger than anything else. And that's by the way,
that's based on family clans. And they went to one

(01:05:43):
particular city which was the heartbeat, the actual heartbeat, the
epicenter of this particular iteration of whatever you want to
call it. And nobody knew anything. They said nothing. There
was no such thing as a want to be nobody.
You know what's funny, Intel's got to be the easiest

(01:06:07):
thing in the world. I have heard so many people say,
you see that guy, he's with so and so, And
I said, first of all, do you know that for sure? Yeah?
Does he know you're saying that? Because, as you know,
being a member of certain organizations is by in and
of itself, a crime. This is what rico is. Are
you sure you want to say that?

Speaker 6 (01:06:28):
Do you really know?

Speaker 3 (01:06:29):
How do you know these things? And then there are
other people who love to wear it because there's something
to be said, and it has to do with culture
and where you're from and how you think. The same
thing happened, interestingly enough, when we young people and white
kids in particular, all of a sudden took off of
this notion of the crypts and the bloods and all

(01:06:51):
this other kind of stuff. All of a sudden, they
just loved this notion of sounding black at when I
say it's not you know what I mean, being a
part of gang. And I'm thinking you're from Madison, Wisconsin,
your name is Rusty, what are you talking about? But

(01:07:12):
it became so so unmistakable. Why is that? Why? What's
the what's the thing? What was it that lured them
about it? And I'm telling you, I think it goes
to show you a little bit about how we think.
And by the way, going back again, because there's so
many aspects to this, we don't have appointment TV. Now

(01:07:36):
we have binge watching. We have somebody who says, hey,
I'm gonna I'm gonna watch you know, the new episode
or the new season of such and such dropped this season,
we had to do it piecemeal. Every week. You didn't
know what was going to happen, and many times they
didn't either.

Speaker 1 (01:07:54):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:07:55):
Past story said, I believe that he would get the
script and immediately go and see whether his character was
in it, who was whacked, who was gone, who was
not there anymore? And also there's something to be said
after the fact, after after the loving is gone, so
to speak, when you see like domic Key Andesy and

(01:08:16):
others there were there. By the way, he's a very
interesting and very nice man. But later on they're trying
their best to kind of work things through. In any event,
our numbers eight hundred eight four eight nine to two
two eight hundred eight four eight nine two two two.
And I'll tell you what I would really love a code.
I would just oh my kingdom for a code, mister Lee.
I would do everything in my power if I could too,

(01:08:38):
perhaps maybe just I love I love. We're not so
subtle we speak to each other in codes regarding code
eight hundred and eight four eight nine two two too.
And also, I don't think there's going to be a
another iteration ever of the Godfather again. You can't have that.

(01:09:03):
It just will ever happen. And it's something that the youngsters,
frankly will never understand because that was a once in
a lifetime thing. I don't remember something so defining not
only a genre, but a new kind of a filmmaker
and the like. It is incredible. Eight hundred and eight
four eight ninety two too.

Speaker 8 (01:09:24):
Too.

Speaker 3 (01:09:24):
Let's go back at the phones, back of the fun
with your thoughts and comments and then in regarding everything
under the sun, and let me go let me see
as money there we go, Let's go to if we could,
Let's go to Don on Long Island. Don, You're on
another side of midnight with Lionel Don once, Don twice.

(01:09:49):
Don's out of there, Tom in New Jersey. Tom, you're
on another side of Midnight with Lionel. Tom.

Speaker 7 (01:09:57):
Tom.

Speaker 3 (01:09:58):
Hello, that's what I said. That's what I said to
Myself's go to Tom in New Jersey and you said this,
This is Tom Tom, how are you, sir?

Speaker 7 (01:10:06):
Good Lionel. Fantastic show tonight.

Speaker 8 (01:10:08):
You have more than a pocket.

Speaker 7 (01:10:09):
Full of knowledge about this stuff. But it's just a
great show. I want to just comment on two things.
The Godfather was a cultural phenomenon, in my opinion, one
of the ten best movies of all time, beyond.

Speaker 3 (01:10:24):
Any absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 7 (01:10:26):
And The Godfather was kind of like the Godfather to
the Sopranos if you think about it. And I didn't
watch the Sopranos until COVID. But in any event, here's
here's where I called. I had a personal experience with
a mob guy, a pretty serious mob guy back in
because it was eighty eight or ready nine, me and

(01:10:46):
a buddy. My buddy owned a small piece of the
nets the besketball team. He says, Mesa playing the Dodgers tonight,
Let's go over to Shay Stadium. I know Tom and
Lasorda would get in the locker blah blah blah. So
we did the whole thing, going to locker inf of
the game and we're chit chatting with some players and
with Lasorda. So Lasorda comes out to dinner with us

(01:11:10):
and he brings a player, Bill Russell. We were already
with the mayor of Jersey City, Jerry McCann and Lasorda.
There was six of us. So we pull up. We
just we're going to go to like Carnegie Leo's right
across the street from Carnegie Hall. So the car is
parked at the park. Lasorda takes a call from somebody

(01:11:32):
on a Giants who says, you know, they're waiting for
you with this restaurant. So we go uptown and this
was an Italian place, but it was kind of like
in Germantown, about like York Avenue in about ninetieth ninety
fifth up around the are So we go. We go
in and it's a fabulous place. I mean, it's really

(01:11:53):
richly decorated without being severe. It's a very upclass restaurant.
The six of us we go through the bar area
and we sit down. Nobody else is in the restaurant,
no one We sit down. I'm sitting directly next to Lasorta.
He's at the head head of the table. I'm immediately
to his right. All of a sudden, you know, we

(01:12:14):
have a drink or two to chatting, and all of
a sudden, these two big guys, two big, big guys
like Andre the giant type guys with jackets on. But
they come in and they stand on either side of
the door, gms, and they're looking around. All of a sudden,
who comes in, John Dotty Lasorda. I had my back

(01:12:38):
to him. Lasorta sees him and he says to me, goes,
oh shit, look, looker's here.

Speaker 3 (01:12:43):
Yeah, we care for you to watch your language, sir.
This is a family show and children.

Speaker 7 (01:12:48):
Yes, I apologize for that indeed. So he comes over,
and Lasorda was really nervous. He called them Charlie God.
He said, tom Tommy, you cost me a few bucks tonight,
because well, Charlie, I really you know. So they chitchat,
but Gotti I turn around and I'm going, Holy Toledo,

(01:13:11):
I can't believe this is a guy that's killed a
million people. The whole Sparks thing. He's already been on
trial once or twice in New York, and I got
to tell you, honestly, the hair on the back of
my neck was standing up. I never saw a better
looking man any day in my life than that guy.

(01:13:33):
And the guy was a maculate. He was a great
looking guy and a really good conversation conversationalist. He's talking
all around it. He's talking about everything, baseball, politics. Somebody
brought up his traveler or they said, you know, I
forgot his lawyer Cutler. Well, you know, he wouldn't. He
wouldn't be my lawyer if I didn't think it was

(01:13:55):
the best. That was all he said about that. So
he goes all around the table and I know, oh,
what everybody's thinking. They're thinking, are the same thing I
am thinking. Is somebody going to come in here and
let us have it. We're going to be like collateral damage.

Speaker 3 (01:14:09):
Why would you think that?

Speaker 7 (01:14:12):
Pardon me?

Speaker 3 (01:14:13):
Why would you think that?

Speaker 7 (01:14:15):
Well, because it was a pretty well known fact that
he was kind of.

Speaker 3 (01:14:20):
A but yeah, but why who? But but this is
this one. I mean, just knowing a little bit about
a little bit about how these uh individuals work, I
think he is a very wise man. Why would he?
I know it's easy at the moment your your brain.
Perhaps it's not thinking, but first of all, why would

(01:14:40):
he want to go in be seen? He leaves and
then there's a massacre and say you were there five minutes.
It doesn't make any sense, But I thank you for
your call. I will tell you. I think if you
speak of one thing, there was a series in which
he was because we never heard him speak and met
the man, have no idea, and and he was speaking.

(01:15:01):
I believe it was one of those jail recordings. He
was either talking to his daughter, his grandson, his son,
or somebody. And to hear him speak, it's far more
I think, literate, and far more expansive in terms of
ideas then one would think, because you never the worst

(01:15:22):
thing you do in listening to listen to a wire tap.
If I hear the same wire tap over and over again,
it's like I got it, I got it, I got it.
But there's something that's very interesting. Let me put it
to you this way. Take levels of fame. Okay, you
can take a rock star. If Mick Jagger walks in

(01:15:46):
and you can say, Wow, that's Mick Jagger, you feel elated.
Is there anything frightening about Mick Jagger? No, maybe his looks,
but no, what about another actor, a big actor, about
a sports star, how about a politician? Does anybody else know?
But if somebody who walks in, who is notorious, who

(01:16:09):
was supposedly an organized crime figure, that transcends everything because
now you can take fame, and you can take all
of the other things that Mick Jagger has, but add
to it a level of danger. And this thing called infamy,
the idea where you are involved in a kind of
of a fright. It's so it's fascinating. That's why when

(01:16:33):
you walk into a trial and you see a big
trial and lo and behold who's sitting there but Ted
Bundy or something. Because even in the annals of these sick,
demented people, they even they have a rock star status
and they're dangerous because it's like, let me put it

(01:16:55):
to this way, in the brain and when certain things
are connected nearby in terms of where innervation takes place,
innervation not innovation, but for example, pleasure, pain, fear, dread

(01:17:16):
sometimes for example, something that elicits pain if in some
cases it can be misinterpreted. It's put it this way,
it's in the area of the brain that is part
of titillation. So the argument is that sometimes see one

(01:17:37):
of the reasons why this I'm really going into the
woods now, let me just explain this. One of the
reasons why people say you should not spank children, and
this is very important, is that if you take them
and you normally spank the buttocks area, which is what
most people think about, because the child's mind is not
necessarily settled yet because parts of the brain are similar

(01:18:02):
in terms of the genital urine area area and you know,
buttocks and this generic area that if you were to
spank a kid or hit some kid, a child may
may misinterpret that or the brain may interpret this as

(01:18:22):
being titillating as being exciting. Why, because it's parts You're
hitting a part of the body which is near another
part of the body, and sometimes a brain can't differentiate.
That's why you don't want to spank a kid because
he might be able to confuse anger, pain titillation, and
then you get off into a whole other kind of

(01:18:45):
a strange I don't want to say words like SMM,
but if you know what I'm saying, you don't want
to do something where a child early on, when events cement,
when you can give them conflicting, stimulate and confuse them. Well,
that's what we see here. We see somebody who is

(01:19:06):
technically frightening, technically evil theoretically, but also famous, and her
brain can't differentiate the two. To them, it's like, it's famous,
I know that guy. Yeah, but he's he's an escape bet. Yeah,
but I know that guy. Let me tell you something,
when when Richard Ramirez, when he would walk into court,
the Knight Stalker, when he would walk in to court,
people would faint. When Aikman walked into the courtroom for

(01:19:31):
the first time in Israel, the people people fainted and
they were in any Believe me, there was a noy
was just considered a you know, admiration. But what I'm
saying is is that your brain can't differentiate the two.
That's a famous person, that's infamous, Oh what's the difference.

(01:19:53):
That's all. That's part of the reason why. Let's go
to Matt madd in the Bronx. You're on another side
of midnight with the line that Matt is gone. Thank
you so much. Let's go to Charlie on Long Island. Charlie,
you're on another side of midnight with Lionel Heynel.

Speaker 8 (01:20:15):
I attended the auction today, great neck. I've never been
from one before, so I was curious what kind of
auction was it.

Speaker 7 (01:20:23):
It was in It was a.

Speaker 8 (01:20:25):
Oh my goodness, stay sale. No, it was a mixture
of seas and the state stuff, artwork, a rebelia sports
and it was a framed picture with al Capone in
the middle, top and all the other famous infamous guys,

(01:20:47):
Gotdi Bugsy, every known big time mafiosa. And I'm curious
to ask you it started at fifty dollars. I was expecting.
I didn't know what to expect. You know, what do
you think it went for.

Speaker 3 (01:21:07):
Dollars ten thousand, ten thousands?

Speaker 8 (01:21:09):
Even clothes? But good guess what it went for four
fifty well, and it was weird. I thought it would
go for more.

Speaker 7 (01:21:19):
Two was it?

Speaker 5 (01:21:22):
That was it?

Speaker 7 (01:21:23):
There were people.

Speaker 3 (01:21:24):
But wait a minute, let me ask a question. Was
it autographed or was this pictures?

Speaker 8 (01:21:29):
I believe some of them were autographed, Okay, but it
was It was all the famous marfiosas from compone on forward.
And I was looking at it, I'm like, oh my god,
they got guid He in there in Castellana.

Speaker 3 (01:21:41):
Well, you know, It's interesting technically speaking, Capone wasn't named mafioso.
He wasn't really in a family. I mean, nothing that matters.
One time I used to work in a police We
have a court room at a police station, and they
had famous booking photos and I remember just staring at this,

(01:22:04):
these very clear pictures of Alcopoe towards the his signature.
He wrote letters to his son. You should read the
letters you're loving and touching before.

Speaker 15 (01:22:14):
Some of them may have been booking for those Yeah,
they were all black and white, but they were all
headshots of you know, nothing of them dead.

Speaker 3 (01:22:23):
I understand.

Speaker 7 (01:22:26):
On it. Though.

Speaker 8 (01:22:27):
There was no Dillinger. Well now, he wasn't really part
of the thug life.

Speaker 7 (01:22:32):
He was just a criminal.

Speaker 3 (01:22:33):
There was a bank no no, no, no, no no.
During the twenties, a bankrubber is Bonnie and Cline and others.
Dillinger was also known for going into banks and find theoretically,
they would say, asking them to destroy mortgages. And I
believe so, yeah, there was a there was a Yeah,
I think there was a pat You know what, Bonnie.

(01:22:57):
I'm confusing about Bonnie and Clyde. I don't know. That's
a good question. I don't know.

Speaker 8 (01:23:01):
I think tried not to kill anybody. They you know,
they just showed intimidation.

Speaker 3 (01:23:06):
But they but what they would do is they would
have the the the loans, the mortgages that these banks
would have. He would destroy them.

Speaker 8 (01:23:18):
Yeah, and so also the sharecrop is and what not.

Speaker 3 (01:23:23):
Right, But it also gave at that time, it made
j Edgar Hoover famous by by almost how do I
say this, attaching himself to the fame of these people.
Those were really interesting folks. Number machine gun, Kelly, machine gun,
Kelly machine gun. Kelly gave the term g man when

(01:23:45):
he told he told, Uh, Jake Hoover has meant don't
shoot g man. They never heard that term before and
it was pretty pretty boy, Floyd, maybe he's now SI.

Speaker 15 (01:23:59):
Yeah, may I may I suggest something for you before
you left show? I know, I don't know what time
to giving me. There's a show on Netflix called The
Man in the High Castle. It's a nice long series
about what would happened if two ended differently. The Nazis
in the Japanese took over America and die Go hoovera
becomes a gestapo. Uh, he buzzed, I mean to the

(01:24:22):
max worse than he ever did in real life. He
had bugs in every you know, high offices and anyone
who thought needed to be bugged intact ahole country. He
wanted bug He wanted every Nazi.

Speaker 3 (01:24:34):
Well you know what, that's that's what he would be
very by the way, thank you for your call. He
would be doing. He would be very happy. Right now,
let me take something about Jaye go Hoover. I think
I told you this before, but when I was a kid,
very very quickly, my my mother gave me one time.
I used to type. Early I was, I was typing,
I like a typer. So one Christmas she gave me

(01:24:55):
stationary with my name on it in a whole bit.
I said, what do I do with this? You we'll
write somebody a letter. She showed me the form. We
had this dictionary, and then the dictionary showed you letters
and the form. And I said, now to whom should
I address this letter? And without thinking, she says, oh,
I don't know jayegger Hoover. I said, who's that? I was,

(01:25:18):
I don't know how old it was. It was a kid.
He said, well he's he's like a policeman. Anyway, just
write him a letter and just just put FBI Washington.
Remember they had the airmail, you know, they didn't have
it just got there. So I wrote Jaegerhover FBI. So
at the time I was having some problems with this

(01:25:40):
place called the Jamestown Stamp Company for some particular reason.
I don't know why I did this. I sent away
for canceled stamps. Why because I'm demented. I was a
child eight nine, I've no idea how old it was,
and I would have they would send me these canceled stamps, right,
And I apparently I owed something I didn't notice I
was a kid. So one day my father we get

(01:26:02):
this note and they're gonna ssue me. So my father
writes a letter. He's a lawyer. He says, my son
has left the capacity to enter to a contract. You know,
leave me alone or I'll sue you. And my father
looks at me with a look of death and says,
don't you ever write anybody again. You understand that anybody.
Don't you write, just not don't answer ads. He just

(01:26:25):
made it very clear, don't write anybody anything. I don't
even trust you to write. Don't even send a letter nothing.
Don't write, Okay, Okay, it's like the Good Fellows, you
know where the postman anyway, I had forgotten that I
send Jaeger Hoover this letter. Dear mister Hoover, I'm a
big fan. Blah blah blah. So it was a Saturday
afternoon and he's out there, and whenever the mailman came,

(01:26:47):
we had this creaky mailbox and we could always tell
you could hear it a mile away. So he goes
out and he grabs a stack of mail and he's
going through it, and I happened to be there and
he comes across this letter and it says Department of Justice,
Federal Bureau of Investigation, Office of the Director. I can

(01:27:08):
still see it, Washington d C. Addressed to me. And
he looks at me and he says, are you writing
anybody kind of said, I swear to godd are you
I told you? So he opens it up and he
looks at he says, it's for you, and it was
Jaegar Hoover. Dear mister Southill. Thank you very much. I

(01:27:29):
appreciate it your very kind words. I'm sending you. He
sent me a book. We became penpalas so I wrote
him back. I didn't know what you're supposed to do.
I wrote him thanking him for the thank you, and
he wrote me for the thank you back, and we're
going back and forth and he's sending me books and

(01:27:49):
he invited my family. We were going to go to
d C. He wasn't there, but his secretary wrote me,
I knew her. I mean it was it was terrific.
He was great, nice man, just whatever. So whatever they
say about him, I understand he had his Believe me,
he had his problems. But through this this little fat

(01:28:12):
kid in damp, but he was a gem. I know
what you're saying. He probably got a little kid. He
liked kids. See there you go with that. I don't believe,
by the way, I don't believe the walking around in
the dress story with Klaie Tolson. That's a Roy Kohane
story that he started because Hoover was watched constantly, and

(01:28:33):
to think that he's walking around dressed as Dorothy Lemore
makes no sense. I numbers eight hundred and eight four
eight nine two two two eight hundred eight four eight
nine two two two two as many twos as you one.
We're talking about an amalgam of why we love dangerous people, outlaws,
movies and outlaws. What does this say about us? What

(01:28:55):
does this say about what really turns us on as
a culture? This is another side of Midnight with Lionel.

Speaker 1 (01:29:04):
The other side of Midnight with Lionel, entertaining and informative

Speaker 3 (01:29:11):
Let me tell you something, Bill Lee. I don't know
how you there. You know, we're still debating whether the
end of The Sopranos was a good idea. I think
it was genius and represents it in many respects. My
wife and I drive by Holston's all the time. That
of course, was that final scene, and I remember that

(01:29:33):
time this came on, thinking to myself, this is just
this was the end, the finale. By the way, let
me just say something very quickly, speaking of organized crime,
and let's just let's let's let's call it organized crime
being Elsie, LaCOSA, nostra or mafia, whatever you want to

(01:29:54):
call it, the life what really killed it? And I'm
not saying it's going I'm not making any judgment about that.
Nothing ever goes away, but but there is a significant
indifference in what it used to be. First of all,
was rocketearing the Rico statue. This this allowed prosecutors to
to target entire enterprises and their leadership, not just individual crimes.

(01:30:20):
It changed everybody. This this is Robert Blakey next WITSEC,
witness protection, immunity safety, encouraging people to to UH to
break Omerta, you know that. That that's that was huge.
And also surveillance, undercover ops the likes of which you've

(01:30:43):
never seen before. But there's also some things too. There
was there's neighborhood assimilation, you know, younger generations of Italian Americans,
you know, they assimilated into broader you know, societies, kind
of reducing traditional local recruitment, so to speak. It's a
way of life. If you're raising this to your family

(01:31:03):
and your cousins and your brothers and your neighbors, it's
something that how can you not want to be a
part of something that you've known since day one? But
if that landscape has changed, the chance for recruitment and
the likelihood decreases well. And also there's changes in labor business,
the decline of traditional labor unions, the rise of corporate consolidation.

(01:31:30):
It dried up this classic extortion racketeering changed everything. But
surveillance more than anything else.

Speaker 7 (01:31:40):
Do you know that.

Speaker 3 (01:31:43):
Everything has changed so drastic. Let me give you another example.
And I was going to mention this perhaps maybe not
for the first time in a long time, we're talking
about reinstituting the draft now the president and everybody is saying,
oh no, no, no, no, no, no, that's not going
to happen. Well, I don't know. For the first time,

(01:32:05):
they're talking about reapping it this time. This time, there's
no draft card. You don't go into the post office,
you don't register. You are registered. It's done for you.
We know where you are, we will sign you up.

(01:32:26):
Our cells changes everything, It changes totally everything. And if
you look at what's happening with drugs, the proliferation of
drugs right now, it's Mexico organized crime in many respects

(01:32:48):
is on the level of Mexican cartels. Another thing too,
which is interesting, Right after the fall of the Soviet Union,
you saw a proliferation of other groups, Russian mobs, Albanians
and others, but Russian moms in particular. One detective noted
one time he says he knew something was different when
he sees these folks under the typical you know, the

(01:33:12):
Russian types and they were playing chess. These were educated
people from a different mindset. And when you also throw
in other things like Chinese trias and Japanese and others,
it changes things differently. So everybody has different iterations of

(01:33:34):
organized crime. It's been affected differently by different law enforcement.
But when it comes to what is romantic, what we
want to watch on TV, what people have loved, oh no,
classic American organized crime. Let's face it, that's what people
find fascinating. And I reiterate and perseverate, perhaps and peril

(01:34:00):
this question. Why the third the final hour coming up
on another side of Midnight with O Lionel.

Speaker 1 (01:34:07):
The other side of Midnight with nyl entertaining and informative

Speaker 3 (01:34:14):
Sure, ill writ in a line with you, this is
the third, the final hour of this thing of ours
numbers eight hundred and eighty four, eight nine to two two,
changing the course of this discussion just a little bit.
I think I would be remiss if I didn't bring
this up, because when I read this this week and
I thought, oh my god, this can't be you. See,

(01:34:37):
my friends, for more than half a century, Americans have
lived with an assumption so deeply embedded in the culture
that most people barely think anything about it. And the
idea was that if you served in the United States military,

(01:34:59):
you voluntar here. Now that assumption has not changed. Yet
something else, unquestionably has. The machinery of the American military
draft is being modernized. But you're being told no, no, no,
don't worry about it.

Speaker 2 (01:35:19):
Don't worry about it.

Speaker 7 (01:35:21):
It's not what you think.

Speaker 3 (01:35:22):
And whenever Washington starts rebuilding machinery, it insists it has
no immediate intention of using reasonable people or anything.

Speaker 7 (01:35:35):
And it has.

Speaker 3 (01:35:38):
A lot of folks saying, well, what's this about. Beginning
in December of twenty twenty six, the Selective Service system
is scheduled to automatically register eligible men, rather than depending
upon young men registering themselves, and that change was enacted

(01:36:00):
through the Fiscal twenty twenty six National Defense Authorization Act
signed by President Trump in December twenty twenty five. Selective
Service says it will use federal data sources to identify
and register automatically eligible men. Do understand precisely what this

(01:36:25):
means and what it does not mean. Registration is not conscription.
There is no active military draft in the United States today.
Congress cannot suddenly discover that your twenty year old has
been shipped to basic training because somebody pushed a button

(01:36:47):
at Selective Service doesn't work like that now under the
existing system. Actually restarting induction would require Congress to change
the law to authorize a draft, and the President to
approve it. Selective Service itself expressly rather says this, but

(01:37:09):
this does not make the modernization aspect of this revelopment. See,
it's quite the opposite.

Speaker 9 (01:37:15):
You see the.

Speaker 3 (01:37:19):
Daily Caller this one particular article reported Friday that Selective
Service is seeking a new digital simulation capable of recreating
a full mobilization pipeline running different scenarios. Now listen to
this examining how conscription would operate in the digital age.

(01:37:41):
And the agency, by the way, is also modernizing legacy
conscription applications and implementing automatic registration. Why. Well, the answer
is very simple and it's understandable. Readiness. See a nation
they argue, maintaining fire extinguishers without planning to burn down

(01:38:03):
the building, and the United States maintains nuclear weapons it
desperately hopes it never has to use. Governments prepare, of course,
contingency systems. But the thing is you and I and
others the same. Wait a minute, are we even talking

(01:38:23):
about the possibility.

Speaker 7 (01:38:25):
Of a draft?

Speaker 3 (01:38:27):
Many have said for the longest time, Charlie Wrangle and
others said that the only reason to if you want
to change people, if you want to stop the utilization
or the expenditure of money, is for war institute or draft,
and everything will change. I just want to throw that
one in there, because people are talking about it, and
if you read the Military Times and a lot of

(01:38:49):
other people, they're very alarmed by this. Are you going
to hear this on conventional cable news shows?

Speaker 10 (01:38:54):
No?

Speaker 3 (01:38:56):
Why? Well, why do you think? Why would they do
anything to alarm you. The whole idea of this is
to get it in place and then one day, if
all of a sudden they need you is, Hey, guess
what we're gonna implement this now? How we've been running
tests and we've been running programs without your knowledge. In

(01:39:17):
any event, I just wanted to mention that let's go
back at the phones and back of the fund and
back to this fascinating subject about our collective psyche terry
in New Jersey, Terry. You're on another side of Midnight
with Lionel.

Speaker 5 (01:39:33):
Nel.

Speaker 10 (01:39:33):
The American people are trendy and starstruck. That's why you
see a lot of people who are fascinated and all
types of personality types attracted to celebrities or infamous people regardless.
But I just think it's basically from afar. I mean,
you do have women writing love letters to psychotic killers

(01:39:55):
in prison, but they themselves would not go into prison
to hang out there and meet them.

Speaker 3 (01:40:00):
They right.

Speaker 10 (01:40:00):
Let it is just like women are attracted to psycho killers.
You won't see poor girls dull themselves up and head
into a high crime neighborhood to meet, you know, psychiatic killers.
They'll keep doing.

Speaker 3 (01:40:13):
No, no, not in that respect. But the number of
women who do go and who are groupies at prisons,
you'd be surprised. Now, let me ask you something. The
point is, why does infamy attract people but not, for example,
the best physicists or the best heart surgeon or somebody
who just does something notable. Why isn't that fame attractive?

Speaker 10 (01:40:39):
Oh, that is definitely very attractive. I mean, most women
are attracted to that. There's just a small percentage I
believe it's a small percentage of women who are attracted
to people who are infamous killers crazy. Maybe they really
are attracted to it, or maybe them a very naive
and gobble they feel they can change a psychle killer,

(01:41:01):
which we know they can't do with like, maybe they
feel they can and they're attracted to this and people.

Speaker 3 (01:41:07):
You know, you're right, you're not answering the question with
all due respect. You're just saying, well, there are people,
and they're young people, and they're gullible and they're attracted.
But why explain to me what is sexy about somebody
who's killed people before, or who is on trial for killing,
or somebody who's a gangster. You haven't explained that. Why
what is it?

Speaker 10 (01:41:29):
I will tell you, to a normal person that will
not be attracted to that. A person who is awful
something's wrong with them mentally, will be and could be
attracted to that type of person. There is something wrong.
Why because there's something wrong.

Speaker 3 (01:41:43):
With them, I'm trying to ask you to tell me
what is wrong with them. For example, if somebody was
a baby killer, or somebody who let's say, was you know,
tortured animals or something, I don't think that would get
their attention. Some killers, you have to explain why is

(01:42:06):
that attractive. I don't think there's something wrong with them
at all. Why do you think that people prefer movies
about sometimes people gangsters or killers or criminals. It's not
just people who are sexually attractive.

Speaker 2 (01:42:19):
Why because you told them about two different things.

Speaker 10 (01:42:25):
People were fascinated through the scope of Hey, I want
to see a movie, I want to read a book,
and then you're comparing people.

Speaker 2 (01:42:32):
Maybe these women think these guys are innocent, maybe.

Speaker 10 (01:42:35):
They can change them. Maybe they just are attracted to
a psycho killer.

Speaker 7 (01:42:39):
There's something wrong.

Speaker 10 (01:42:40):
With these people. There's something wrong with these women who
are attracted to them. Then you've got to get the
doctors or psychiatrists are out there to figure out what's
going on.

Speaker 7 (01:42:49):
But they are off now.

Speaker 10 (01:42:52):
A lot of them could pass off as a regular
person in society and create all kinds of habits because
they maybe have a deep seated hatred of the average person,
and they course trouble for people too.

Speaker 7 (01:43:03):
They could operate that way.

Speaker 10 (01:43:04):
But they are attracted to these individuals. And it's not
just Luigi and Luigion whatever his name is, that I
just attractive.

Speaker 7 (01:43:12):
Hand days.

Speaker 10 (01:43:12):
All of them get led is term of the high
profile crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:43:17):
Jerry I thank you. I thank you so very much.
I appreciate your call. Thank you calling me again. But
that didn't answer anything. I'm just saying, that's just pointed
out and told me what I already knew. And are
they really off? Are they really off? They're not crazy? See,
that's what we love to say in this country, that

(01:43:39):
people are crazy, that people are demented, that people there's
something wrong with them. Always it never ceases to amaze me.
I don't think there's necessarily something wrong with them. Let's
go to a let's go to a David in Manhattan. David,
you're on another side of midnight with.

Speaker 7 (01:44:02):
Much.

Speaker 8 (01:44:03):
I think it's good to hear you.

Speaker 3 (01:44:04):
Okay, that David though, David from Manhattan. Next, go ahead, David,
talk to me, sir. Oh there we know David and Manhattan. David,
you're on another side of mid Navid, Lionel.

Speaker 9 (01:44:13):
That's me, okay, sir. Back in the seventies, I worked
with a company that you should do installations of custom
made furniture. And we had this piece and it was
being put into the Gulf and Western Building up on
fifty ninth Street. Oh yes, oh yes. And the way
it worked was unbelievable. Even though they had big doors,

(01:44:34):
we couldn't bring it in. They had a special machine
with suction cups that they put onto the glass. They
would take the glass off and put it to the side,
and they had they'd come out with a forklift and
pick up a palette, lift it up and hand it
off to another palette another forklift that was inside the building. Anyway,

(01:44:55):
we put our stuff on a pallette and this was
like I had a little bag with tools, and I'm
waiting and I'm waiting for ahold this to go on.
I go, I'm gonna make my bag up and just
walk through the door. So I pick up my bag.

Speaker 5 (01:45:08):
All of a.

Speaker 9 (01:45:08):
Sudden, I hear this gurgling, low voice say, put that
EFN bag down, or I'm gonna stop this whole damn operation.
I turn around and there's no other way to describe it.
This short little gorilla and the most fabulous, gorgeous suit

(01:45:30):
I've ever seen, and he's dripping any gold.

Speaker 2 (01:45:35):
Gold chains.

Speaker 9 (01:45:36):
Every finger on him is gold, and I couldn't believe it.
And my boss goes to put it down, put it down,
put it down. I put it down. They continue this operation.
He's watching us like a hawk, and it goes on
and we do our work and we have to leave.
We have to go through the same process again. We
can't walk out through the door. We gotta put our

(01:45:58):
stuff onto the palette and again this forklift picks it
up and puts it outside. You know, we walked through
the doors. It's it was like so controlled by organized crime.
You couldn't do a thing.

Speaker 3 (01:46:15):
Then, what was you got to explain? People are listening
now and they're saying, I don't understand.

Speaker 9 (01:46:20):
I'm sorry. What was what did organize?

Speaker 3 (01:46:23):
What was controlled h this?

Speaker 9 (01:46:26):
This gentleman basically was shown you that he was in
charge and to his what type of gentleman? You didn't
question him? He ran the operation. I guess he oversaw
the operation for the the Gulf and Western Building.

Speaker 3 (01:46:45):
What were you doing that was objectionable to him?

Speaker 9 (01:46:49):
Picking up the piece of my bag and bringing it
through the door. Why was because everything had to be
done on his terms. His terms were the furniture as
well as all the tools were considered. I guess part

(01:47:09):
of the work.

Speaker 3 (01:47:10):
And the work now, was he a somebody in this office?
Was he part of labor?

Speaker 9 (01:47:15):
Was he came out? I guess he was part of label.
He just came out of nowhere, and all the people
there that were like, you know, handling the walklift and
all this, they listened to him. You did what he said.

Speaker 3 (01:47:31):
Now, I'm gonna ask a stupid question. How do you
know this was organized crime and not somebody with a
great suit who was just a tough guy.

Speaker 9 (01:47:39):
Well, I guess the look of him, the way he spoke,
you know, the whole thing, it just reeked of.

Speaker 6 (01:47:47):
It's interesting.

Speaker 3 (01:47:47):
I appreciate that. I appreciate that, and thank you for
your call. I had a friend of mine years ago
who told me he can had no idea. It came
from Florida and he was part of a He was
into a some kind of I don't know what it was.
It was some electronics show where some people's and he
was at the Javit Center and he explained to me, says,
he didn't know he moved something, change, did something without

(01:48:13):
getting approval or having some approved version of an individual
do whatever they were told to do. And he was
immediately visited by somebody who was most persuasive, who said,
in a very nice way, we would prefer that you
use our assistance to accomplish something as simple as either

(01:48:34):
changing a light bulb, moving a sign, anything, and he
immediately said, oh, oh I get it. It's that simple.
Eight hundred and eighty four eight nine two to two two.
What about another draft? You think we're ever going to
do that? Oh, you can bet on it. More coming
up on the other on another side of Midnight with

(01:48:56):
the Lionel.

Speaker 1 (01:49:00):
Side of Midnight with Linel entertaining and informative on the
Red Apple podcast network.

Speaker 3 (01:49:06):
Sure all writing your line up with you eight hundred
and eight four eight nine two two two eight hundred
eight or eight nine two two two You know there,
I was saying. After The Godfather, the movie, it was
reported that people members supposedly of organizations dressed differently. Restaurants

(01:49:31):
all of a sudden looked looked for folks to frequent theirs.
It became, it became overnight, almost like a badge of honor,
like well, you know, the boys are like this really yes,
Whereas before you would say, oh no, this is going

(01:49:52):
to ruin our reputation. It changed everything immediately, and it
created the wannabe, the wannabe, the poser, the synthetic version.
When all of a sudden forget about. It became I
mean everybody, to the point where it got to be

(01:50:13):
a little bit much just like doing things. When gangster
raps started, young kids name Rusty from Sheboy and all
of a sudden are referring to my end and they'll say, what.

Speaker 9 (01:50:25):
What you know?

Speaker 3 (01:50:27):
There were gang members and they were using various se
urban and gang colloquialisms and their red haired, freckle face.
You know, Rusty, it's just oh, you're a gangster. Okay,
oh gangsta, Gangsta. Let's go back to the phones, back
to what I call fun Pamela in New Jersey, you're

(01:50:50):
on another side of Midnight with Lionel.

Speaker 16 (01:50:53):
The organized criminals come in many different forms and backgrounds.
For really, since when I taught in the high school,
there was a particular group that came from Russia and
they were terrorizing the members, and through the grapevine we
heard that the Russian teacher was so afraid of them
that she quit. They obviously threatened her. And I had

(01:51:15):
a reputoot and for not taking fools lightly. And I
was very good at my job with some rough characters
and special ed and behaviorally. So anyway, I found myself
one day in a desiliate part of the building, and
this group came in my atmosphere and they were obviously

(01:51:35):
speaking Russian, so I was like, ooh, this must be
the group they're talking about. So, you know, it's so
huge that I didn't have a run in with them
until then. And one of the members started mocking me
just because I was there. And so all of a sudden,
the who appeared to be the leader said in English,

(01:51:55):
leave her alone, and he gave me a thumbs up
that she's all right. So apparently my reputation for not
taking fools lightly in the administration because there were certain
things going on where I made sort of public let's say,
not a performance, but my feelings known as to administrator

(01:52:19):
or they sadly and they liked the power, they liked
that I had strength, and they just.

Speaker 3 (01:52:26):
Liked you, or they or they just liked you for
no reason other than just just liking you. You know,
it's funny you say that there are people, how do
I say this? In some of these groups, not just
typical organized crime, but others as well. Sometimes the women,

(01:52:49):
the wives, the girlfriends, the or as they say on
TV Gumar which is just my skin crawls want to
hear that they are oftentimes sometimes worse than anything in
the organization themselves, because just because they are not a
member of this does not mean they are completely and
not at all not verse with what's going on. They

(01:53:12):
know precisely what's happening, and they're sometimes more vicious, if
you will, than others. But just because they're a woman,
it means nothing. It just it means nothing. But in
every or in every group of people, there are people
the first ones who say, how can I exist outside
of the law. But what I wanted to say was

(01:53:34):
in the prototypical Italian American that we talk about now,
it started out of necessity in Sicily, because the only
people they had to go to for meeting out justice
or judicating wrong, you know, problems is the Inmo you know,

(01:53:55):
the man of honor, the guy who literally was like
the a village elder. And when they came here, these
same folks realized, you know what, we might be able
to implement this. First of all, it was like we said,
the black hand, this is kind of this extortionist group.
But then it came here and the same folks from

(01:54:16):
other countries who were afraid of deportation or whatever, they
also turn to these folks, which is what they're used to.
So it started kind of by necessity, and then later
on as people realize they can kind of beat the system.
And by the way, Pamela, I appreciate that, Thank you
for calling me. Call me again. There was nothing more
organized and more criminal than government. Absolutely positively. You want

(01:54:43):
to talk about gangsters, let me tell you something. None
of these people, not Vinnie Ugotz or whoever these people,
can get us into war. None of these people can
be involved in serious weaponshipping and changing the course of
human development. Who can get us involved in in ventures

(01:55:07):
that are just stupid where we're innocent people could be
killed in a war that nobody wants. The ultimate gangsters,
the ultimate real gangsters are are politicians, without a doubt.
Lucas in New Jersey, Lucas, you're on another side of
midnightwood Line.

Speaker 12 (01:55:27):
Yeah, he, Lionel Uh talking about the mob. I got
something of my friends fail. He wan't infultraded the mob
if you will, Uh he what it was actually fail? Well,
I think infiltrated. I may use that little liberally. He
who is sad a friend of mine, I'm I'll tell
you this story. Uh, he told me this at a bar.

(01:55:50):
I don't mention that to cast doubt on the story.
I think this is why he told me in the
first place. But I think i'll repeat it.

Speaker 10 (01:55:56):
Uh.

Speaker 12 (01:55:57):
He was following a thread. Let him to social a
social club, and I believe it was in Queen's and
it was maybe the early eighties. He was around thirty
two thirty three years old and he'd been following a thread.
And Sell, what is a thread?

Speaker 3 (01:56:12):
What does that mean? Following a thread? What does that mean?

Speaker 12 (01:56:15):
Well, well, you never knew where it started or where
it ended, you know, you just it was. It was
just a thread that he was pulling at for a while.
On this particular thread led him to this.

Speaker 3 (01:56:24):
What does that mean? Excuse me back up a little bit.
I understand the imagery. What did he do? Precisely?

Speaker 12 (01:56:31):
And he was not law enforcement, He was not a journalist.
He was he was just a citizen.

Speaker 7 (01:56:35):
He was.

Speaker 12 (01:56:36):
He was he became convinced if there were a series
of observations. I'm not going to get into this observation.

Speaker 3 (01:56:41):
No no, no, wait, wait, no, no, no, I'm curious.
He became aware of what that there were organized criminals
available or that he he wanted to independently infiltrate them.
I don't understand. Tell me what he did, we alcoing to.

Speaker 12 (01:56:55):
Well, what he told me was that something was happening
in that club that connected to something larger, and he
decided the only way to understand him was to go inside.

Speaker 7 (01:57:04):
That's what I bet.

Speaker 3 (01:57:05):
How would he I'm just I'm sorry, I'm dense. How
would he know what was going in a club that
he was not a member of.

Speaker 12 (01:57:13):
Well, you know, Shal was not a reasonable person. He was.
He arrived at a different conclusion through what he considered
airtight logic, but he was not a reasonable guy. So
I don't know, really understand it.

Speaker 3 (01:57:24):
So he decides on his own. He says, there is
this organ there is this social club or this whatever
it is, And he says, I think there's something the
fairy is going on there. And I, as a private citizen,
not law enforcement, not as a journalist, but as a
Priva citizen, am going to infiltrate this note, this club,

(01:57:45):
this private club of which I am not a member,
And I'm going to go in independently and get to
the bottom of something which I suspect to be going on.
As a private citizen. Is that what you're saying?

Speaker 7 (01:57:56):
You got it?

Speaker 8 (01:57:57):
But when I say what is he not?

Speaker 12 (01:58:02):
You could say that Vionel, Well, I'll play what happened
when he went in there? He went to First, he
went to a stript store. I think it was in
Bay Ridge. He bought a suit for this occasion. Now
that he wasn't a nice suit. I think that sale
once told me he had a He had a a theory.
He explained this to me once, the right suit in
the right neighbor. He said, it communicates a specific set
of information about a man. So he wanted to get

(01:58:23):
a certain suit. I think it was. I think he
paid eleven dollars in the stript store and it conveyed
exactly what he wanted to convey.

Speaker 7 (01:58:31):
What hen.

Speaker 12 (01:58:33):
It was well made, but it wasn't new, and it
was it was the kind of suit that said, like,
you know, I don't shop meself, but I like my stuff.
So he paid eleven dollars. He also bought a newspaper.
And you love this, Lionel. He told me that a man,
a man waiting summer with a folded newspaper is a
man with no word. It's with somewhere to be. A

(01:58:53):
man reading a newspaper is a man with nowhere to be.
I think I think you'd like that.

Speaker 3 (01:58:58):
Okay.

Speaker 12 (01:58:58):
Well, he walks into the club, and he was Tuesday afternoon,
and he is in the afternoon, he said, And I
want to note that he spoken to Italian by the
way he speak any Italian. But he just sat down
there at the bar, and he looked vaguely Mediterranean. So
I suppose he passed.

Speaker 3 (01:59:15):
And he walked into a private social club and sat
quote sat down at the bar, and he would have
been immediately recognized as not being a member. Well how
long was he there before he was escorted up?

Speaker 12 (01:59:32):
Well, he wasn't discorted out. He sits down at the bar,
and there are four men in the club at the time,
tour playing cards, one was watching television, and the guy
behind the bar looks at sal you know, he looks
at him. I think the way you look at a
thing that appeared somewhere. Our things shouldn't be. And the
bartender said something to him an Italian. So Stal nods,
and that's it. That's his entire response. He nods with

(01:59:54):
He was a very specific kind of nod, like he
was confirming something rather than lad something.

Speaker 3 (02:00:00):
I'm curious. Let's cut to the chase. What happened? When
did they kill your friend?

Speaker 12 (02:00:06):
Hey, it didn't kill him at all. The two men
playing cards, they'd not looked up. The man watching television
didn't look up either, and the bartender didn't even ask
him his name or his business. Sal was just sitting
there an eleven dollars suit with his Folton newspaper.

Speaker 3 (02:00:19):
And understand this, this story is this is this is
this is laborious. What was the conclusion? Let's jump to
the end of the story. What happened?

Speaker 12 (02:00:28):
So what happened was that I got a man. A
different man came from the back, a different, different caliber
of man. Sala called him.

Speaker 3 (02:00:33):
Man, okay, so what happened? Please just tell me? I
beg you, just what happened?

Speaker 12 (02:00:38):
He sets me to sell an Italian and.

Speaker 3 (02:00:42):
And what happened? And what happened?

Speaker 12 (02:00:45):
So he said something in Italian. Sell respond understand I'm
waiting on. Sala responded, I'm waiting on Thursday. And the
man not okay.

Speaker 3 (02:00:54):
And I'm begging you. You're a very nice man. I
appreciate this. I am so tired of the story. Tell
me the punchline jump all the way to the end
of the story. So, therefore, what happened the end of
the story? Not somebody came in. He was wearing a jacket,
he put the paper down, he looked up, he had

(02:01:15):
a drink. No, what happened? What was the last part
of the story.

Speaker 12 (02:01:18):
Tell me the end of the story is that sal
left the bar having not been recognized as an impostor,
and he came back to Naxa and the bar was closed.
It was closed the very next day.

Speaker 3 (02:01:32):
You put me through this for that story. Thank you
very much, Lucas, thank you very much. I appreciate it.
Not really, my god, I'm trying. I'm thinking to myself,
am I being set up? This is the worst story ever,
With all due respect, everybody's entitled all that, all that

(02:01:54):
for nothing interesting? Lenny in the Bronx, Lenny, Lenny tried
to top that. You run another side of Midnight with Lionel.

Speaker 10 (02:02:04):
Well he opened the wind there and the breeze was
coming in.

Speaker 2 (02:02:07):
You're right, God, this is talk radio.

Speaker 10 (02:02:09):
You got to get right to the point. And you
can't make the story. You can't elo game the story,
you know exactly. But it's good the way you play
along because you are funny too.

Speaker 3 (02:02:20):
I try my best, I try my best, and and
your best is very good.

Speaker 10 (02:02:27):
The grand lady who just called in, she said those
individuals were Russians. Were they Russian students or they Russian secrets?

Speaker 7 (02:02:35):
Sir? I mean, who are these Russians? No?

Speaker 3 (02:02:40):
No, I think there were students of some sort. They
would be hanging around as school. Russian secret servants. Out
of school is a different story. A code, mister Lee,
A code. So what is your what is your point,
my friend? Elucidate us with your unique take on this situation.

Speaker 10 (02:03:00):
Oh, mine take is very unique. I just think everybody
has like a story, and they all like fantasize and
think about things, maybe things that they wanted to be
in life, and they didn't succeed, and they took another avenue,
and then they succeeded the other way. Some people think
the wrong road home, and some people in life put

(02:03:20):
on a pair of roll skates and they skate through
the whole thing.

Speaker 3 (02:03:23):
I have no idea what that I have no idea
what this means. I mean, So, therefore, you're saying the
reason why people like mob of movies is because of.

Speaker 10 (02:03:36):
Because of I don't think. I don't know if everybody's life.
Do mob guys like mob movies? That's the best question.

Speaker 3 (02:03:42):
Are you kidding me? Are you kids? Absolutely? Do people
in the CIA like spin Do people in the CIA
like spy movies? My friend John Kiriako says they love it?
Are you kidding me? How many times.

Speaker 10 (02:04:02):
They sit there and they say, Hey, that's me, that's me,
and then they.

Speaker 3 (02:04:05):
Say, well, it's funny you say that. It's funny you
say that because during some of the some of the
some wire tapped allegedly that occurred in Jersey, there were
a number of people who were saying that's me, when
in fact it wasn't them. It just they just happened

(02:04:26):
upon this, this way of thinking.

Speaker 9 (02:04:30):
You know, let me tell you.

Speaker 3 (02:04:31):
And by the way, thank you for your call. I
appreciate this. This is one of the things which I
find interesting out of all of the people that I
believe to be from what I know. I'm just look,
I'm not going to pretend like I know anything about this.
I'm just a civilian.

Speaker 7 (02:04:49):
I what do I know.

Speaker 8 (02:04:50):
I don't know anything.

Speaker 3 (02:04:52):
But the person that I felt was the most interesting
of the group that if they use this particular type
of of power or logic. I think Carlo Gambino, of
all of them, intrigues me. Well, number one is Lucky Luciano,
number one, but number two is Carlo Gambino. How this
is at the time before rocketeering, before Rico, before wire tapping,

(02:05:16):
and he would insist upon just not talking on the phone,
and he recognized me he saw something even though there
was no such thing as wiretaps. Nobody there's no such
thing as that anymore. The idea of surveillance today is
so great you wouldn't believe. In the old days they
had these Nagra tape recorders where they would have them

(02:05:40):
taped to their chest or their boot or just not anymore.
But even then he said, you know what there was
there was, So that's that. Also the idea of somebody
who goes law for long periods of time, who is
never arrested, who and also which is probably the most difficult,

(02:06:01):
who abs positively expresses no interest in showing off in
as someone said one time, wearing it. That always fascinated me.
When Lucky Chiano came his one of the I used
to love to study this. My interest has been the

(02:06:25):
same thing happened to my interest in organized crime history.
History is not not not embellishing this, not not loving it,
but just looking at the history of this. The same
thing that happened to me regarding that happened to me
regarding cigars. I was I was, you know, from my
grandparents were cigar makers, and where I was actually technically born,

(02:06:47):
we had some of the greatest cigars ever. I mean
I grew up with them. We spoke cigars in grade school,
in high school, we all had the best and it
wasn't considered at all cool or rich.

Speaker 7 (02:07:02):
You know.

Speaker 3 (02:07:03):
I've got to this one guy and he'd give us cigars,
he'd write, He'd there was no box, he was just
wrapped silk around it. And anyway, well, that changed with
the Cigar Aficionado magazine and Marvin Schenkin and Rush and
people now were smoking cigars. They wanted to show, Hey,
look at me, Let's go smoke a cigar. I said,

(02:07:27):
let's go smoke a cigar. Yes, say saying let's go
smoke a cigarette. And it killed me. I lost all
interest in it completely, completely, though I do love my
good friend cigar Dave at Arthur Avenue right there in
the in the in the complex. And then even so,

(02:07:48):
all of a sudden, from what I understood, this notion
of it being a quote a secret society where you
actually kept your mouth shut now has been exposed by
social media. What killed me even before then. And you

(02:08:10):
this may surprise you, but when I was just out
of a law school, I became very good, became friends,
and he became one of my best friends, with a
fellow named Gordon Solely, who was a wrestling announcer, and
I became immersed in the business of this and it
was so secret, so they would say, k fabe. So

(02:08:38):
I mean you, you cannot believe if you were a
wrestler and you were seen seen, if you're a babyface,
a good guy, if you're seen with a heel, they'd
fire you, they would move you, they would It was
and I loved the secrecy, and I love the people
who say play it low, don't call attention to yourself.

(02:09:02):
Well that changed, and now with the with the social media,
I'm listening to everybody's got one story after another explaining everything.
I'm thinking. You took an oath, You took an oath.
And then there's this notion of the rat it's impossible
for you to live in a society or in an

(02:09:23):
organization where you were looking at fifty sixty you know,
football scores for terms of sentences, and for people to
maintain some kind of secrecy. So I just it's like
I'm not even in this life as it were. I
can't believe how many people I know. I There used
to be something about wondering, like you think, maybe I

(02:09:45):
don't know who knows he's says he's a plumbing contractor.

Speaker 9 (02:09:51):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (02:09:51):
That's what I thought was so interesting about the the
secrecy of it. Mister Lee, can we fix our screen? Please?
Thank you, sir. There was the time before Frank Costello
came along. As I told you, they thought he was
Italian ECUs, they thought he was what I am we
trying to say. They thought he was Irish, and they

(02:10:14):
thought he was Costello. You had no idea. Nobody knew
anything about these folks. They were just kind of low key.
You just did not know this. But now, because of
the Internet in particular, AL was gonna tell you something
now with these I forgot to make more point about wrestling.
Wrestling was so secret. Now there's shoot interviews and they

(02:10:35):
were explaining everything about ka Fabe and who. I can't
believe what I'm listening to. It may not seem like
much to you, maybe it surprises you. But I love
the idea of secrecy. I love the idea of taking
an oath. I love the idea of not knowing anything.
And now there's a proliferation again of people who used
to be in the CIA, and they have websites and

(02:10:57):
they have podcasts and they have It's like, wait a minute,
you're telling everybody you were in the CIA. Isn't that
kind of dangerous? Don't you want to maybe not tell
people that? So again, what I thought was interesting, I
thought was the idea this is silly me of the

(02:11:17):
way the for lack of a better word, the mob
was explained to me. Number one, civilians need not worry.
We mean you no harm. Number Two, if I can
tell who you are, you're doing something wrong. You're ruining it,
You're causing attention. Another thing. I don't understand. This is

(02:11:38):
another And I'm sure you were the same way. Whatever
happened when I used to see the pictures, photos FBI
surveillance of all these people showing up at the ravennite,
you know, or just kissing, kissing each other in public?

(02:12:00):
What are you doing? Some FBI agents sitting there saying,
oh you mean that, guys, I didn't know.

Speaker 9 (02:12:07):
Hey, look who it is.

Speaker 3 (02:12:08):
He's a member, he's a whoever said this, I don't understand.
I don't understand any of it.

Speaker 7 (02:12:17):
I see.

Speaker 3 (02:12:18):
That's my whole life. I don't understand. I expected more.
I wanted again from what I understand, just a civilian,
from when the Carlo Gambino quiet, just take it easy.
The little old man that everybody just stands up, the

(02:12:38):
one who looks like your grandfather. That's the person I
thought was the most interesting. It's almost like camouflage. It's
somebody who who hides their their lethality and always the
nicest people, the nicest, very low key, very there. I say,

(02:12:58):
k fabe, Let's go to Georgia on Long Island. You're
on another side of Midnight with Lionel.

Speaker 17 (02:13:05):
Yeah, hide Lionel. I'm an old Brooklyn boy. I'm approaching eighty.
I'm an old guy. But I'll never forget. My grandfather
was the proprietor of a club in Coney Island, and
that's where my family was from. It was the Coney
Island Democratic Club, which is a joke. Well, all it
really was was a gambling house. My grandfather was a
proprietor and no, I want to it's really crazy. And

(02:13:29):
he would serve corfee and food and he cut the
pot and he did a little gambling and maybe a
little loaning of money, and once in a while he'd
get arrested. Now I'm a court clerk. Now it was
a rotory court clerk, and my dad was. It was
a court clerk before me. So we grew up to
be quote honor citizens. So my grandfather we'd have to go.

(02:13:50):
We bailed him out a couple of times.

Speaker 7 (02:13:51):
He wasn't you know.

Speaker 17 (02:13:53):
I'll tell you, nobody's listening to this at night. And
most of my relatives are dead. They'd kill me if
they were alive.

Speaker 3 (02:13:59):
But they'd kill me if they were alive.

Speaker 16 (02:14:03):
I like that.

Speaker 17 (02:14:03):
They would like really be pissed off at me.

Speaker 3 (02:14:05):
But no, no, I love the imagery. If they were
not dead, they would kill me.

Speaker 17 (02:14:10):
I like it, okay, but that anyway, my grandfather passes away.
He had money for me. I bought a house. I
lived on the stupid golf course. But anyway, before my
father passed away a number of years ago, and I said, Dad,
you don't remember when we used to go bail Grandpa
out and he goes and the stuff that he did,
it wasn't really serious crime. It was gambling and related stuff.

(02:14:33):
So he said to me, your grandfather they say he
was a crook because he loans some money out. Hump
out the guys that work at City Bank, they loan
money out on there. Yeah, they're twenty four percent. So
who's the real thief? That's my point.

Speaker 3 (02:14:48):
I never, I I you know, I will never as
long as I live, understand the whole notion of gambling.
We had a guy years ago growing up in It's
funny when but before things became really you know, thanks
to Lucky Luciano, who who who created families and territories

(02:15:08):
and organization. But in the South in Tampa, it was
a very interesting group of people. We had Sicilians and
Cubans and all these folks. They all kind of got
along and there was a thing called bollita, and bolita
was everybody played it. They had a yeah, numbers in
a bag and they would actually shake this bag and

(02:15:30):
pull the numbers on and this is how people they
made fortunes and they kind of looked the other way
and that sort of thing. And then there were people
who were so this is the best part. They were
so quiet. You didn't know anything. You kind of had
an idea, maybe before anybody knew anything, but there was

(02:15:52):
this idea, maybe you can. You can appreciate this, George,
that if I'm doing this, I don't want you to
know it. I don't want you. I don't want to
walk around and go I'm not going to kiss you
in public with a pinky ring and say no, that's
called wearing it. I'm not going to do that. This

(02:16:12):
is what I don't understand. I think I'd be very
good at this because I would First of all, I
wouldn't want to associate with anybody. I would be the
most anti social. My social club would not exist. I
would not have a social club. I would not have
any Nobody would ever speak to it. Why are we speaking?
What are we shooting the breeze? Why are we doing this?

(02:16:33):
We only it's a need to know basis. Thank you, George.
I appreciate it. I mean, if I ran it, I
would have a very tight ship. And the first thing
is we don't talk about this. I'm the first rule
about fight club is you don't talk about fight club.
It's a very very simple thing. How many people now
we know about the induction, we know about the cars,
we know about the Saint and the flame and the

(02:16:56):
we're not supposed to know that. I want secrecy. By God.
I want there to be honor, honor among thieves among men, because,
after all, it's this secret society. Thanks to the movies,
thanks to organized to social media, now everybody knows anything

(02:17:17):
and dog on it. There goes the fun. Eight hundred
eight four eight nine two two two more coming up
in the final segment on the final hour of Another
Side of Midnight with me a Linel.

Speaker 1 (02:17:28):
The Other Side of Midnight with Lionel entertaining and informative

Speaker 3 (02:17:36):
Already Align up with You eight hundred and eight four
eight nine two two two. In the last moments of
this Thing of Ours, look at this headline, Florida dad
thought using a leaf flower on his infant son would
be fun until he died. He killed a kid with

(02:17:57):
a leaf flower. They're not going to make a movie
about it. How about Brian Cooleberger or Coburger. I should say,
the unsettling theory surfaces on why Brian Coburger chose the
house he attack is do we like him?

Speaker 4 (02:18:13):
No?

Speaker 3 (02:18:14):
No, this is the one who don't Again is it creepy?
I don't know what we started off, and what I intended,
at least initially, was this idea of why do we
find things fascinating when I used to as I told

(02:18:35):
you the story of organized crime, but also professional wrestling,
which changed my life. I learned everything, the idea of
the heel, the bad guy. It wasn't known. Wrestling was
two people wrestling, it wasn't a bad guy, and one

(02:18:56):
of the most interesting things that ever happened, and the
history and the annals of professional wrestling. His name was
George Wagner, gorgeous George. And this is a man after
I talk about Prussian this is a man after World
War Two, when America had just clobbered Hitler, when America

(02:19:17):
was feeling brave and strong and masculine and great and powerful.
This guy comes along and has this act, this gimmick
where he's wearing Bobby pins, and he has dyes his
hair blonde and and and he's sashetting around in a robe.

(02:19:42):
Sasha listened to me, and people went berzok, what is this?
And wrestling was forever changed. He was the heel, he
was the bad guy. They booed him, they loved him
because he was the You didn't understand the manichean good

(02:20:05):
versus evil without the bad guy, and the bad guy
in some respects was more interesting because you wanted to
see him break the rules. And it was something delicious
about watching somebody who's the bad guy.

Speaker 5 (02:20:18):
And it's in us.

Speaker 3 (02:20:21):
And one of the reasons why, which is the moral
of the story, is that what we think are the rules,
these clear guy listen, there are things about people who
are child murderers. I don't think anybody's gonna want to
do the story about Albert Fish, the cannibal and serial
killer of the twenties. Nobody's gonna that's not that's not
of interest. But when you talk about Jimmy Burke and

(02:20:43):
Jimmy the Gent and all these other stories of these
these interesting people al Capone, John Gottie and others, irrespective
of what you think of what's right and what's wrong,
you find it fascinating. And one of the reasons why
is you must understand that these laws for the most part,
really don't bother you. Racketeering does that upset you? Now,

(02:21:09):
I don't even know what the hell I mean. I
know what it is, but most people say, I don't
even know what that means. And being a gangsta in
any event, well, two of the best ogs. Of course.
I want to thank miss A bill Lee, and I
alsold us to thank Jackson, who did a tremendous job
tonight stewarding the helm. Gentlemen, thank you so much and
thank you for listening. Thank you so much for lending

(02:21:31):
your expertise in your inside. You may follow me on
YouTube at Linel Nation and on x at Linel Media,
so we'll see you next week, my friend, Thank you
so much, and again, from the bottom of my heart,
thank you for listening. This is your new best friend
Linel reminding you these final words, the monkey's dead, the
show's over. Sue you Dad.

Speaker 1 (02:21:54):
The Other side of Midnight with Lionel entertaining and informative
on the Red Apple podcast Network.

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