December 23, 2025 • 42 mins
From Bach and Handel to new and rarely performed music from Latin America, Border CrosSing is making waves and breaking down barriers. By combining musical and cultural styles, this Minnesota-based, award-winning choral group is intentional about crossing borders through choral music to impact singers and audiences alike.
The Bach Society’s Scott MacDonald and Zach Singer sat down with Founder and Artistic Director Ahmed Anzaldúa at the 2025 Chorus America Conference. Their conversation reveals how artistic risk can bring deep reward and why music matters in the many forms it takes.
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(00:00):
This is Bach Talk.
(07:07):
What we are doing is that we are tryingvery hard to set a good example in
how cross-cultural exchange works.
We take a lot of risks.
I firmly believe that musicmatters and the arts matter.
And what we do has a huge effect on ourindividual wellbeing, on how the world
works, on how people relate to each other,
and if the arts matter, if musicmatters, therefore, if we do it in a
way that isn't thoughtful or that iscausing harm, then that harm matters
too.
A dual language version of a famouschorus from Handel's Messiah, coupled
with a companion passage from NavidadNuestra by Ariel Ramirez, that's
Border CrosSing in concert conductedby their founder, Ahmed Anzaldúa.
It's perhaps the most obvious exampleof how Border CrosSing, spelled with
a second S capitalized, is doingexactly what their name suggests.
Yet it only scratches the surface ofwhat Border CrosSing is all about.
Hello and welcome to Bach Talk.
I'm Ron Klemm.
What a thrill it was to attend the 2025annual conference of Chorus America
here in St. Louis a few months ago.
We met old friends.
We made new ones from theinternational choral music community.
(22:21):
Some are doing similar offerings to whatThe Bach Society does here in St. Louis.
Others are far different.
One such organization from theTwin Cities of Minneapolis and St.
Paul, Minnesota has a fascinatingmission of cross-cultural enrichment.
During the break at the conference, ourown Scott McDonald, along with The Bach
Society's, Zach Singer, sat down withBorder CrosSing's artistic director,
Dr. Ahmed Anzaldúa to learn more.
And when they greeted him, Ahmedwas already smiling ear to ear.
And Ahmed, how isyour conference so far?
It's going great.
I just joined the nationalboard and Border CrosSing.
Received an award just thismorning, so it's been quite nice.
Congratulations.
What was the award?
It's the Alice Parker Fund Award.
It's given each conferenceto the thoughtful representation of
Latin American and black music in choral.
Wonderful.
in the choral space.
Well, to start out, we'd like to hearabout the origins of Border CrosSing.
How the organization cameabout and what your mission is.
The mission of Border CrosSing isessentially to cross cultural borders
through music, through choral music.
I started the group in 2016.
I am Mexican, Egyptian and Iwanted better representation of
my immigrant cultures on stage.
It is a fully professional group andwe also have a community chorus, we
publish sheet music, we have twostudio recordings out there now.
One of them was on theshortlist for the Grammy, and both
of them have received various awards.
We have an educational program and,it's grown quite rapidly since 2017.
We perform music of all eras, all styles.
Our most recent concerts included theCuban Requiem, the Réquiem Osún by
Cuban composer Calixto Álvarez and backin April we did program with a Bach
cantata, Bach motet, Osvaldo Golijovcantata and Osvaldo Golijov motet.
So, we do all sorts ofrepertoire, basically.
And do you do any original programming?
Any original compositions as well?
I mean, we commission music all the time.
We've done several premieres.
We're recording several, we'rerecording the full works,
of Minnesota based composer Carol Barnett.
So as far as original programming, we definitely commission
and champion new composers.
I arrange for the group, occasionallywe publish our own music.
So yeah, wide variety of things.
So I, I want to talk about youreducational programming because
I know that you guys do a lotof community outreach and,
a lot of programs around.
Could you talk more aboutyour community choir and as well
as the programming that you do?
It's all integrated into one thing.
Our community chorus, ourprofessional chorus, our educational
programming, they all work together.
Our professional singerssing educational program.
They, the singers in the communitychorus feed the professional chorus.
We try not to have a hierarchy wherethings are elevated over the other
but just appreciate allthe different types of
Musical expression andexpertise levels at all levels.
So I can say that the same amount ofeffort and funding and work and
focus on artistic expression goes intoour work with third graders through our
community program as it does with ourcommunity chorus, where singers might
be singing a choir for the very firsttime to our fully professional group
that has just people with decadesof professional singing experience.
Now, I'm very curious, how does yourapproach, whenever you're in front of a group of students,
for example, and let's just, since youused the third grade analogy, how does
your approach to explaining this musicthat you hold so dearly to yourself, how
does that approach change when you'redealing with younger children versus,
let's say a more general audienceof adults in a community setting?
It's all about communicating why itmatters that we are performing a piece.
And learning to tailor your programto the people that are, your language,
to the people that are listening.
But essentially, the language I use whentalking about a program is the same.
It's just at a different age level,depending on who I'm talking with.
So, for example, BorderCrosSing recently performed Bach
Cantata number BW7, Christ cameto Jordan, two months ago.
Introducing it to my professional singers.
I delved into the theology of it, into thedifferent themes happening, the different
references and the different movements.
When I was talking to ourgeneral audience, I was talking
more about what is a cantata?
What is it, the general form of it?
What role would it play inBach's time versus modern?
And when I introduced this musicto a third grade or fourth grade
audience, I call their attentionto the different pieces of it.
There's a choir, there's a soloist, thereare instruments doing different things.
There's a movement that'sexciting and fast because it
represents water and ripples.
And there's a movement that is slowand reflective because it represents,
represents a moment of meditation.
But we are talking aboutthe same thing with the same
passion and emotion and focus.
The language is just different because youwant people to understand it better and
people come with more or less experience.
Do you see any sort of tension betweenthe Bach that you perform and the
living composers that you perform?
Absolutely not.
That is the missionto cross those borders.
And when we talk about that often,a knee jerk reaction to folks
that hear words like inclusivity,
or diversity or equity in choral spaces, especially in the arts,
they immediately think, oh, they'regonna take something away from me.
Which is not true, especiallyin the way we do it.
So rather than tension, theseworks, speak to the modern music
and give it a different context.
When we did the Bach, we paired it withthe Golijov because Osvaldo Golijov,
he was heavily inspired by Bach tocreate his cantata and his motet.
And putting them together really showedthose connections when we performed
recently, the Calixto Álvarez Requiem.
That piece includes elements of,western classical church music in
Latin with, Yuba chant from Cuba,all sort of mixed into a fugues
and, and, different movementsusing different polyphonic styles.
And again, there is a tension, butit is a sort of good tension where
the things, the different elementsspeak, contextualize, enhance rather
than try to exclude each other.
I'm very curious about how you first cameto the conclusion that these works can
work so well together and how you sellthat to a new group of people who've maybe
never seen Border CrosSing work before.
I think that the music speaks foritself in many cases, and not just
the music, but the passion andcontext that one brings to it.
One of our first concerts, includeda highly, highly, very obscure
sort of singing from northern Mexicocalled Cardenche Singing, which
comes from the region of Durango.
Cardenche literally means cactus.
It's called cactus singing becauseit sounds like you're pulling
thorns of a cacti out of your skin.
It is very raw.
It is very loud, it is verydissonant, and it is full of themes
of death and lost love.
They're very, very tragic songs.
We recorded a couple of them inour most recent album, Al
pie de un árbol, it's called.
So that program paired that with several,works with similar themes on death
and love and dying and grief by Brahms,by, by Bach, by Heitor Villa-Lobos. And
what happened was, the rawness andthe loudness and the dissonance of the
Mexican folk singing brought a whole newdimension to the grief expressed in the
works by Brahms, or the works by Bach.
Because it expands what the extremes are.
It gives you a sense of what itcould be or how it's expressing
similar themes with a different,language, musical language.
So what I find is that when you arethoughtful about how you pair music
together, how you present it, why you wantto do it, that's what brings people in.
Our recent program, onpaper, it shouldn't work.
I mean, BW7.
It is probably one a Bach'sstodgiest cantatas, it's full of
secco arias and recitatives and,and the theme is very much like if
you're not baptized, you're doomed.
It's a stodgy cantata, but it is acantata that is about water and rivers
and it's full of beautiful water imageryand presenting it next to Osvaldo
Golijov's Cantata “Oceana”, which isalso about the water and imagery and the
ocean and, seeing the two interact
made a Bach, cantata that normally wouldbe sort of a little dreary to folks that
aren't already in love with Bach muchmore approachable and much more exciting.
Now, when you're programming somethinglike that, are you programming it
strictly from a textual standpoint?
Are you also considering justhow the music itself works, where
you're looking to place these thingsin the order of the con of the
program that you're working with?
It all works together, but I,my background is as a pianist,
organist, harpsichord player, sothis is all music that doesn't have
texts or the texts are implied.
So I personally, as a conductor,usually approach music first from
it's musical elements and thenoften fall in love with the text.
But that's just me.
So I rarely program, I almostnever actually program something
where the text speaks, but themusic doesn't particularly move.
It has to be, it all has to work together.
The Gloria from the Misa Criolla byArgentinian composer, Ariel Ramirez.
Border CrosSing was led by Ahmed Anzaldúafrom their album Un Milagro de Fe.
From Scott and Zach's conversation withDr. Anzaldúa at the 2025 conference
of Chorus America straight ahead.
You are listening to Bach Talk.
I wanted to, to ask more aboutyour background before you came,
to found Border CrosSing.
You mentioned that you're a keyboardist,pianist, organist, harpsichordist.
Had, had you been a choir conductor prior?
I actually came to choirconducting late in life.
I was a trumpet player, pianistgrowing up, first trumpet, then piano.
I Went to a very prestigious,music school for piano.
The Queen Sophia College of Musicin Madrid, which has churned out
many, many competition winners andsome of the top concert pianists that
are, that are out there right now.
And I really thought thatwas gonna be my future.
You know, practiced upwards ofeight, 10 hours a day and know all
my Rachmaninoff, all my Prokofiev andBeethoven and all that sort of stuff.
I went back to Mexico to teach and,and in 2012 , me and my family, we
came to the United States in part toflee the drug cartel violence in Mexico.
And I, joined a program atWestern Michigan University.
And while I was there, one of myfirst teaching assignments was to be the
pianist for the choirs at the school.
And Western Michigan University has,at least back then, had one of the
most prestigious choral programsin the country, right, including,
especially in vocal jazz, theymight be known as the best vocal jazz,
choral, program in, in the country.
I was their pianist and about amonth into the job, the entire choral
faculty went off to a conference.
And left the pianist in charge.
They left me in charge of all thechoirs for about a week, and they're
working on Messiah for that week.
So I got to pretend that I was the choirdirector and just did Messiah all week.
And by the time theywere back, I was hooked.
I enrolled in the Master's in choralconducting, while I was there,
got a master's in choral conducting.
Three years later I went tothe Twin Cities and got a
doctorate in choral conducting.
And during my doctorate, I started,Border CrosSing and since then it's,
I mean, I still play as a keyboardplayer, but, and sometimes conduct
a choir from the harpsichord or,but yeah, I, I came to it quite late.
one of the things that I loved aboutgetting into the choir, discovering
choir music at first, is that itreally informed my keyboard playing.
Sure.
So, you know, as a keyboard player, you spend
You know the Well-Tempered clavierreally, really, really well, and you
play it and practice it and all that.
And then you ask all these questions,it's a G minor, the G
minor fugue and book one, whatwas Bach trying to say here?
And you just play it and play itfor years and years.
And all of a sudden you startdiscovering the cantatas and you
find like three cantatas that have anidentical theme and they all have text.
And that text is about Pentecost.
And then all of a suddenyou're realizing like, oh.
Maybe that gives me an insight intowhat the keyboard music is saying.
So yeah.
We had an interview with MichaelMarissen, who is a leading, Bach
scholar and talked a lot about theinterpretation and misinterpretation
of Bach's theology in his music.
Bach is seen as a particularly religiouscomposer, but it also has very
conflicting histories in terms ofthe, the surviving records of his
life and his own personal beliefs.
I think what I love is that Bachwas a, was a complex person and
he wore many different hats.
And, I am a full-time church musician.
That is my, my main, I mean, I, I lovewhat I do with Border CrosSing, but
my health insurance and my incomecomes from my full-time church musician.
When I read Bach's.
Letters andinvoices and complaints.
And, think about Bach workingas a church musician, writing these
cantatas and mote and programming andmanaging all the different choirs.
And, I find that it is a lot moreinteresting to think of Bach in terms
of his everyday work and different hatshe would wear, rather than trying to
look too deeply into what his theologymight have been or what his,
vision for the development of Westernclassical music could have been.
I mean,
maybe he would think about that, but.
I, I can't imagine that being forefronton his mind when he had to churn out all
this music and care for all the kids and
on a weekly basis.
Yeah.
And go over and have coffee and,
and still teach a bunch ofungrateful students and still.
Yes.
So, and I, that definitelygives me a lot more insight, I
think, into how to approach his musicand how to understand it better.
Is there a particular thing thatwhenever you're hearing someone perform
Bach, is there something that you arelistening for that tells you, this
person understands this piece, or thatmight have an understanding of what
Bach was going for, or maybe even justtheir own interpretation that's making
it come alive at that point in time?
Is there something that you'relistening for that tells you
this person has a good idea?
Not one particular thing.
Rather, I'll think, what do I loveat a Bach performance in general?
I love a Bach performance thatdoesn't take itself too seriously.
I love a Bach performance that thatdances as well as it sings that that
includes both elements of rhythm anda full spectrum of human emotion.
And I like a Bach performance that isn'tafraid to break some rules, because
a lot of those quote unquote rules arethings that were established way after the
fact, way after the music was written.
So I guess what I'm looking for isalways what is connecting to some
sort of central spirit in the workrather than following a particular
set of early music informed historicalpractice rules that have been set, or,
I like a little messiness in my Bach.
If it has to come down to a choicebetween it being messy and exciting
or cleaner, but a little bit
sterile.
Sterile.
So yeah, that's, I guess that's thething I, I don't appreciate sterile
Bach, unless it is one of those pieceswhere Bach is being deliberately
sterile, which there are a few of those.
There are a few pieces where Bachis being deliberately stodgy.
You know, delivering a text that is meantto be very straight into the point, so.
And I, I, I think about how maybethe, the most famous interpreter
of keyboard works by Bach, GlennGould is the opposite of sterile.
He broke every rule.
And, at the same time, there are somany, keyboard players, wonderful Bach
Interpreters, who I love maybe as muchas l Gould, who cannot stand Glenn Gould.
I mean, because the thing about GlennGould is that it was such a highly
personal, idiosyncratic interpretationof Bach, that it actually created a style.
Mm-hmm.
It, it became, how can you ever approachthe Bach Goldbergs again without, in some
(22:42):
way being compared to, to the Glenn Gould?
Just curious here.
'cause for me, if I'm listening toa Bach piece, what I'm listening
for is if I can see how hewrote the music in his own hand.
'cause like if I'm looking at this thingat the Singet dem Herrn, for example, and
you can see, just because he was writingit so quickly that the lines are bending.
(23:05):
They're not strict, printedthe way we'd expect them to be.
There are, he's printing thisessentially in a sweatshop with his
children as his, as his, workers.
And you can see just theline of whatever it is.
If it's the soprano line, you can seethe ups and downs, and not just in the
notes, but in where he viewed it asbeing important because there's a little
more weight in that piece of paper.
(23:25):
That's a really interesting point.
And, not just how it's written,but also, the thought
process behind how the piece came about.
Was this something thatstarted as an improvisation?
Is this something that started asa exercise in a particular thing?
You do wanna ask Whatprecisely was the intent of
Bach sitting down to write this?
(23:47):
Because it communicates to you somethingthat is very central to the piece, and
that allows you to communicate that to anaudience, both as a performer, but also
as a, as a conductor when you're tryingto get everyone on board to do a piece.
I really appreciate you noticing howthe, you know, the music is bendy or not.
studying a manuscript gives youlots of little insight into that.
(24:10):
Something that really changed, forexample, how I do Handel was looking at
his manuscripts, particularly Messiahmanuscripts, because something that Handel
did in his manuscripts that you're notalong to see in published editions is that
he used big bar lines and small bar lines.
You'll see a handle score andyou'll see these big old bar
lines that go across the score.
(24:32):
And then you see like the little onesthat are just like carefully drawn out
between staffs or put in even later.
And when you realize like, oh,okay, these big bar lines are
telling you what he thought of asone big musical idea as one phrase.
And these smaller ones are justto show you where the time signature is.
(24:54):
And, I've never seenthat referenced in any textbooks or
in any teaching of heel, except Isaw it in a little obscure CD
booklet by Nicholas Harnoncourt.
He just wrote a little bit like,has anyone noticed the bar line said
Handel, like, just like a sentenceabout how, because, because he was
(25:20):
noted for taking much faster temposand a lot of handle's music, and.
And when I see it, I'm like, oh, okay.
These are like 16 bar chunks thathe's putting under one big thing.
So yeah, there's little things like thatthat come up in a manuscript all the time.
Now, would that change from additionto addition since he revised that
so many times over the years, or?
(25:40):
Well, the thing is that those are thingsthat seem to be kind of consistent, but
what I like to see is that first timewriting it out, because that does tell
you once it gets copied and cleaned up.
That's sort of like you said, thoselittle bendy lines don't show up anymore.
And one of the beautiful things,that I love about the time we're living
(26:01):
in now, especially because I tend tospecialize in obscure repertoire that
isn't published in many cases, most ofthese manuscripts have been digitized.
You can go to IMSLP and look up Bachmanuscripts where you used to have
to go get a facsimile or travel toGermany and dig through an archive.
So this information is now out there for.
(26:24):
Anyone to look at and,integrate into how they make
(27:46):
music.
Ahmed Anzaldúa leading Border CrosSingin “For Unto Us a Child Is
Born" from Handel's Messiah Sungin alternating English and Spanish.
(28:07):
More from Scott McDonald and Zach Singer'sconversation with Border CrosSing.
Founder and music directorAhmed Anzaldúa straight ahead.
This is Bach Talk.
Whenever you're picking a pieceof music and you're going through
these things, do you feel moreresponsibility for the bigger ones?
(28:28):
So like if you're going to look at theSt. John's passion for example, or Singet
dem Herrn, do you feel more responsibilityfor those pieces than if it's something
that's less known where you can maybetake a little bit more liberties or
a little bit more artistic freedoms?
Actually, I think it's the opposite.
So when I perform.
Something that is lesser known.
So, for example, a obscure piece of, a three minute hymn from
(28:54):
Peru that I know hasn't been recorded,that only, there's no edition of it.
We are probably gonna be the firstpeople that touched this piece in
300 years and our recording in ouredition is gonna be a reference point.
And this piece, it's role in.
The choral music scene isa little bit more fragile.
(29:15):
People are gonna judge it a littlebit more harshly if we do it
wrong, because we are referencedbecause there's only one recording.
If I present that piece in a way thatisn't thoughtful and well informed,
people listening are gonna think, well,that Peruvian piece sucks, versus,
oh, Ahmed did not do a good job.
(29:35):
On the other hand, no one's ever gonna think
that the Saint John passion sucksbecause I performed it poorly.
So when I,
you're responsible.
Yeah.
When I conduct Messiah, which in fact,
I feel so much more liberty to playwith those big pieces and put on my
own, twist on them and imprint on themand take more risks because they're
(29:58):
so well established and it is, there'sa little bit less of a responsibility
of you play individually a less of arole in that piece's history, I guess.
one of our sort of premier programs is
a twist on Handel's Messiah.
We do a different version of it,around Christmas where we
(30:21):
mash it up with a LatinAmerican Christmas, cantata
called El Mesías that includes, um.
Andean folk instruments, encanas, accordions.
mashup I mean that theAndean folk instruments are in
the Handel, play reorchestrated.
(30:41):
We do the Handel bilingually.
It jumps around from Spanish and English.
We go from one mood to the otherwithout eruption, and I would not
dare do something like that with apiece that is obscure or new or newly
written because there's a lot moreresponsibility on, making sure
that what we are doing is as authenticto the original intent as possible.
(31:07):
You mentioned when you're doingBach, there is so much scholarship
on historically informed practice.
how much research goes into that?
I'm guessingfor many of the more obscure
pieces from Latin America, thereis not that much scholarship.
Do you end up taking on a lotof the, research to make
the performance authentic.
(31:27):
Yes.
Regardless of what we're performing,I try to do as much research as I
can, just because I love doing that.
I do it for fun.
I listened to all 200 plusBach Cantatas and took notes on them
and try to memorize them becauseI like them and they're fun, so.
(31:49):
Sure.
it is research.
That, and it does come from a senseof obligation, but it also comes
from a sense that I really lovedoing it and it's a lot of fun to do.
I enjoy the conducting, I enjoygetting up on stage and wave my arms
and, playing the harpsichord or whatever, but I enjoy the research of it
(32:09):
as much as I enjoy the performing of it.
Do you view the performance of, obscureworks or celebrating under,
under celebrated, Latin Americancomposers in particular as advocacy?
Or are you simply viewing itas an artistic expression?
Both.
Both things can be true.
it's not just aboutmy intent with it, but also how it's going
(32:34):
to land with the people listening to it.
It is very hard to, especially in today'spolitical climate, to perform music
by immigrants or music from Latin Americawithout it being perceived as, some
sort of activism and in a way it is.
(32:54):
I am an immigrant myselfand a lot of Border CrosSing's
work is in the activist space.
But it is also artistic expression.
Both things.
Certainly in, Minneapolis and St. Paul.
You mentioned that there's a lot ofdifferent diasporas, and different
communities when, you're goingto perform a work, that includes
(33:17):
something like Indian Carnatic music.
are, you reaching out to thosecommunities and trying to involve.
other immigrant, performers and, those who are really well versed
in those, diaspora community music?
Absolutely all the time.
any music we perform, there is an element of expertise that
(33:41):
you have to seek out and it's justthe same if I am performing,
a Bach cantata, I do my research.
Unfortunately, most, choralmusicians, choral directors with
the sort of degrees that I have, havehad many years of education in how
to perform back correctly, right?
(34:02):
But almost none of us have education,how to perform in Carnatic music or even
music from the Black Gospel tradition.
Like even though it'subiquitous everywhere.
So what you do is you seek out thatexpertise, you seek out collaborations,
and you pay them for their time.
You work, build a relationship, soyou perform everything together.
(34:22):
Border CrosSing is built on severalvalues, access, relevance, and
the most important one, I think, orthe first one, is representation.
So we try to make sure that whatwe are doing on stage is accurately
representative of what the music is,who that music is originally performed
by, what that music means, and thatvaries on a case to case basis.
(34:45):
There's music that is inappropriatepresenting it without the
people that created it or the peoplethat, it is just inappropriate.
(35:56):
Where, in other cases, that doesn'treally apply and it's just about being
thoughtful about how you're doing it.
Just as a responsible performer,just out of artistic integrity, anything
I perform, I will try to seek out.
As many resources as I canto do it as well as I can.
And in a lot of cases, like withIndian Carnatic music, that means
that those resources are people.
Right.
People that can do it.
Right, and people whosevoices deserve to be heard.
And people who, as you said, deserveto be paid for their time and
their expertise and their knowledge.
It's certainly a hot buttonissue in almost every,
choir and every choir conference.
Is, the, the topic of culturalappropriation, is it appropriate for
a majority white choir to performblack gospel music or to perform,
music by Latin American composerseven to perform, music in
other languages that are not English?
what would you, what are your thoughtson, that extremely controversial topic?
this is something I get askedabout because I've sort of built up a reputation about it.
cultural appropriation versus culturalexchange is a very misunderstood thing,
and I've found that the damage, thatfear in this space causes does a lot more
(36:22):
damage to the idea of doing things wrongbecause there's so much music that is
not performed because of people's fear.
I think that it is important tobe thoughtful and well-informed,
but the idea, the classic questionis, is it appropriate for a
majority white or entirely whitechoir to perform Black music.
(36:46):
And almost always the answer is yes.
When you work in ruralMinnesota, for example, a lot of the
time a singer that is in a choir, let'ssay random middle school somewhere,
that might be their only exposure toBlack music or Black culture, right?
not only is it appropriate, itis at least in the educational space.
(37:11):
Necessary.
It is a duty of choir directorsto make sure that their singers
are exposed to music that reallyrepresents the wide diversity of
musics and culture expressions.
In this country.
I mean, we don't make funof English language learners
whenever they mispronounce a word.
(37:31):
We shouldn't.
Why would we judge a group if they'redoing something poorly, if they're
trying, that seems like an areafor communication and outreach and
dialogue rather than an instant shutdown.
And that's, that's the wordthat you said if they're trying.
So I think it is the best practice toalways assume good intent, unfortunately.
(37:52):
The intent isn't always good.
I have seen cases, extreme cases wherethere was bad intent, but in almost
every case, you wanna assume good intent,and that people are trying their best.
You start there, if I as a Mexicanmusician go to a performance and
hear music, that is misrepresentingmy culture in some way, and that
(38:16):
can be a wide variety of things.
It can be words that are slightlymispronounced, or it can be taking a
very solemn and sacred Nahuatl songand performing it with marimbas and
dance and colorful, dresses whenit was meant to be a funerary song.
(38:36):
Both, both things are true.
I will generally think, okay,there's good intent and if appropriate.
Try to contribute, say, Hey, this wasn't,this works, this didn't work.
You should maybe try this.
even though you want toassume good intent, you also,
(38:59):
want to consider what the impact is.
And impact and harm is always gonnabe more important than intent, and
the impact of perpetuating a particularstereotype about Latin American music,
even if the intent is good, is real.
Latin American immigrants dealwith certain stereotypes all the time.
(39:23):
We are characterized as lazy.
We're characterized as wanting to partyall the time, not taking things seriously.
We are characterized as sortof being drains on the system.
These are stereotypes and whenmusic and culture is represented
in ways that aren't thoughtful.
Those stereotypes are pushed alongand when people, view the
(39:46):
world through their stereotypes,they treat others a certain way.
They vote a certain way.
They spend their money a certain way.
They hire a certain way.
So impact is real.
(40:07):
You are listening to the Sanctusfrom the Misa Criolla by the
Argentinian composer Ariel Ramirez.Border CrosSing is conducted by our
featured guest today, Ahmed Anzaldúa.
It's music from their album“UnMilagro de Fe” A Miracle of Faith.
You can obtain it and learn muchmore about Ahmed and Border CrosSing.
(40:31):
By going to their website,BorderCrosSingmn.org.
Don't just search border crossingor you'll be led down a rabbit hole.
That's Border CrosSingmn.org.
(50:25):
Do you enjoy hearing about otherchoral ensembles besides The
Bach Society of Saint Louis?
Let us know.
Take a moment right now to contact us,just go to bachsociety.org and click on
Bach Talk under the watch and listen tab.
There's a simple form you can use toask your question or leave a comment.
If you'd rather interact more, just sendus an email, Bachtalk@bachsociety.org.
Today's music used by permission.
The associate producer of Bach Talk isScott MacDonald, and Scott was joined
by The Bach Society's Zach Singer.
Their conversation with Dr. An Anzaldúatook place at the 2025 Conference
of Chorus America here in St. Louis.
Additional assistance today providedby Ian Gilbert and by Carissa Marek
and Andy Murphy of Right relations.
I'm Ron Klemm.
Bach Talk is a registered trademarkof The Bach Society of Saint Louis.
This is Bach Talk.
(07:07):
What we are doing is that we are tryingvery hard to set a good example in
how cross-cultural exchange works.
We take a lot of risks.
I firmly believe that musicmatters and the arts matter.
And what we do has a huge effect on ourindividual wellbeing, on how the world
works, on how people relate to each other,
and if the arts matter, if musicmatters, therefore, if we do it in a
way that isn't thoughtful or that iscausing harm, then that harm matters
too.
A dual language version of a famouschorus from Handel's Messiah, coupled
with a companion passage from NavidadNuestra by Ariel Ramirez, that's
Border CrosSing in concert conductedby their founder, Ahmed Anzaldúa.
It's perhaps the most obvious exampleof how Border CrosSing, spelled with
a second S capitalized, is doingexactly what their name suggests.
Yet it only scratches the surface ofwhat Border CrosSing is all about.
Hello and welcome to Bach Talk.
I'm Ron Klemm.
What a thrill it was to attend the 2025annual conference of Chorus America
here in St. Louis a few months ago.
We met old friends.
We made new ones from theinternational choral music community.
(22:21):
Some are doing similar offerings to whatThe Bach Society does here in St. Louis.
Others are far different.
One such organization from theTwin Cities of Minneapolis and St.
Paul, Minnesota has a fascinatingmission of cross-cultural enrichment.
During the break at the conference, ourown Scott McDonald, along with The Bach
Society's, Zach Singer, sat down withBorder CrosSing's artistic director,
Dr. Ahmed Anzaldúa to learn more.
And when they greeted him, Ahmedwas already smiling ear to ear.
And Ahmed, how isyour conference so far?
It's going great.
I just joined the nationalboard and Border CrosSing.
Received an award just thismorning, so it's been quite nice.
Congratulations.
What was the award?
It's the Alice Parker Fund Award.
It's given each conferenceto the thoughtful representation of
Latin American and black music in choral.
Wonderful.
in the choral space.
Well, to start out, we'd like to hearabout the origins of Border CrosSing.
How the organization cameabout and what your mission is.
The mission of Border CrosSing isessentially to cross cultural borders
through music, through choral music.
I started the group in 2016.
I am Mexican, Egyptian and Iwanted better representation of
my immigrant cultures on stage.
It is a fully professional group andwe also have a community chorus, we
publish sheet music, we have twostudio recordings out there now.
One of them was on theshortlist for the Grammy, and both
of them have received various awards.
We have an educational program and,it's grown quite rapidly since 2017.
We perform music of all eras, all styles.
Our most recent concerts included theCuban Requiem, the Réquiem Osún by
Cuban composer Calixto Álvarez and backin April we did program with a Bach
cantata, Bach motet, Osvaldo Golijovcantata and Osvaldo Golijov motet.
So, we do all sorts ofrepertoire, basically.
And do you do any original programming?
Any original compositions as well?
I mean, we commission music all the time.
We've done several premieres.
We're recording several, we'rerecording the full works,
of Minnesota based composer Carol Barnett.
So as far as original programming, we definitely commission
and champion new composers.
I arrange for the group, occasionallywe publish our own music.
So yeah, wide variety of things.
So I, I want to talk about youreducational programming because
I know that you guys do a lotof community outreach and,
a lot of programs around.
Could you talk more aboutyour community choir and as well
as the programming that you do?
It's all integrated into one thing.
Our community chorus, ourprofessional chorus, our educational
programming, they all work together.
Our professional singerssing educational program.
They, the singers in the communitychorus feed the professional chorus.
We try not to have a hierarchy wherethings are elevated over the other
but just appreciate allthe different types of
Musical expression andexpertise levels at all levels.
So I can say that the same amount ofeffort and funding and work and
focus on artistic expression goes intoour work with third graders through our
community program as it does with ourcommunity chorus, where singers might
be singing a choir for the very firsttime to our fully professional group
that has just people with decadesof professional singing experience.
Now, I'm very curious, how does yourapproach, whenever you're in front of a group of students,
for example, and let's just, since youused the third grade analogy, how does
your approach to explaining this musicthat you hold so dearly to yourself, how
does that approach change when you'redealing with younger children versus,
let's say a more general audienceof adults in a community setting?
It's all about communicating why itmatters that we are performing a piece.
And learning to tailor your programto the people that are, your language,
to the people that are listening.
But essentially, the language I use whentalking about a program is the same.
It's just at a different age level,depending on who I'm talking with.
So, for example, BorderCrosSing recently performed Bach
Cantata number BW7, Christ cameto Jordan, two months ago.
Introducing it to my professional singers.
I delved into the theology of it, into thedifferent themes happening, the different
references and the different movements.
When I was talking to ourgeneral audience, I was talking
more about what is a cantata?
What is it, the general form of it?
What role would it play inBach's time versus modern?
And when I introduced this musicto a third grade or fourth grade
audience, I call their attentionto the different pieces of it.
There's a choir, there's a soloist, thereare instruments doing different things.
There's a movement that'sexciting and fast because it
represents water and ripples.
And there's a movement that is slowand reflective because it represents,
represents a moment of meditation.
But we are talking aboutthe same thing with the same
passion and emotion and focus.
The language is just different because youwant people to understand it better and
people come with more or less experience.
Do you see any sort of tension betweenthe Bach that you perform and the
living composers that you perform?
Absolutely not.
That is the missionto cross those borders.
And when we talk about that often,a knee jerk reaction to folks
that hear words like inclusivity,
or diversity or equity in choral spaces, especially in the arts,
they immediately think, oh, they'regonna take something away from me.
Which is not true, especiallyin the way we do it.
So rather than tension, theseworks, speak to the modern music
and give it a different context.
When we did the Bach, we paired it withthe Golijov because Osvaldo Golijov,
he was heavily inspired by Bach tocreate his cantata and his motet.
And putting them together really showedthose connections when we performed
recently, the Calixto Álvarez Requiem.
That piece includes elements of,western classical church music in
Latin with, Yuba chant from Cuba,all sort of mixed into a fugues
and, and, different movementsusing different polyphonic styles.
And again, there is a tension, butit is a sort of good tension where
the things, the different elementsspeak, contextualize, enhance rather
than try to exclude each other.
I'm very curious about how you first cameto the conclusion that these works can
work so well together and how you sellthat to a new group of people who've maybe
never seen Border CrosSing work before.
I think that the music speaks foritself in many cases, and not just
the music, but the passion andcontext that one brings to it.
One of our first concerts, includeda highly, highly, very obscure
sort of singing from northern Mexicocalled Cardenche Singing, which
comes from the region of Durango.
Cardenche literally means cactus.
It's called cactus singing becauseit sounds like you're pulling
thorns of a cacti out of your skin.
It is very raw.
It is very loud, it is verydissonant, and it is full of themes
of death and lost love.
They're very, very tragic songs.
We recorded a couple of them inour most recent album, Al
pie de un árbol, it's called.
So that program paired that with several,works with similar themes on death
and love and dying and grief by Brahms,by, by Bach, by Heitor Villa-Lobos. And
what happened was, the rawness andthe loudness and the dissonance of the
Mexican folk singing brought a whole newdimension to the grief expressed in the
works by Brahms, or the works by Bach.
Because it expands what the extremes are.
It gives you a sense of what itcould be or how it's expressing
similar themes with a different,language, musical language.
So what I find is that when you arethoughtful about how you pair music
together, how you present it, why you wantto do it, that's what brings people in.
Our recent program, onpaper, it shouldn't work.
I mean, BW7.
It is probably one a Bach'sstodgiest cantatas, it's full of
secco arias and recitatives and,and the theme is very much like if
you're not baptized, you're doomed.
It's a stodgy cantata, but it is acantata that is about water and rivers
and it's full of beautiful water imageryand presenting it next to Osvaldo
Golijov's Cantata “Oceana”, which isalso about the water and imagery and the
ocean and, seeing the two interact
made a Bach, cantata that normally wouldbe sort of a little dreary to folks that
aren't already in love with Bach muchmore approachable and much more exciting.
Now, when you're programming somethinglike that, are you programming it
strictly from a textual standpoint?
Are you also considering justhow the music itself works, where
you're looking to place these thingsin the order of the con of the
program that you're working with?
It all works together, but I,my background is as a pianist,
organist, harpsichord player, sothis is all music that doesn't have
texts or the texts are implied.
So I personally, as a conductor,usually approach music first from
it's musical elements and thenoften fall in love with the text.
But that's just me.
So I rarely program, I almostnever actually program something
where the text speaks, but themusic doesn't particularly move.
It has to be, it all has to work together.
The Gloria from the Misa Criolla byArgentinian composer, Ariel Ramirez.
Border CrosSing was led by Ahmed Anzaldúafrom their album Un Milagro de Fe.
From Scott and Zach's conversation withDr. Anzaldúa at the 2025 conference
of Chorus America straight ahead.
You are listening to Bach Talk.
I wanted to, to ask more aboutyour background before you came,
to found Border CrosSing.
You mentioned that you're a keyboardist,pianist, organist, harpsichordist.
Had, had you been a choir conductor prior?
I actually came to choirconducting late in life.
I was a trumpet player, pianistgrowing up, first trumpet, then piano.
I Went to a very prestigious,music school for piano.
The Queen Sophia College of Musicin Madrid, which has churned out
many, many competition winners andsome of the top concert pianists that
are, that are out there right now.
And I really thought thatwas gonna be my future.
You know, practiced upwards ofeight, 10 hours a day and know all
my Rachmaninoff, all my Prokofiev andBeethoven and all that sort of stuff.
I went back to Mexico to teach and,and in 2012 , me and my family, we
came to the United States in part toflee the drug cartel violence in Mexico.
And I, joined a program atWestern Michigan University.
And while I was there, one of myfirst teaching assignments was to be the
pianist for the choirs at the school.
And Western Michigan University has,at least back then, had one of the
most prestigious choral programsin the country, right, including,
especially in vocal jazz, theymight be known as the best vocal jazz,
choral, program in, in the country.
I was their pianist and about amonth into the job, the entire choral
faculty went off to a conference.
And left the pianist in charge.
They left me in charge of all thechoirs for about a week, and they're
working on Messiah for that week.
So I got to pretend that I was the choirdirector and just did Messiah all week.
And by the time theywere back, I was hooked.
I enrolled in the Master's in choralconducting, while I was there,
got a master's in choral conducting.
Three years later I went tothe Twin Cities and got a
doctorate in choral conducting.
And during my doctorate, I started,Border CrosSing and since then it's,
I mean, I still play as a keyboardplayer, but, and sometimes conduct
a choir from the harpsichord or,but yeah, I, I came to it quite late.
one of the things that I loved aboutgetting into the choir, discovering
choir music at first, is that itreally informed my keyboard playing.
Sure.
So, you know, as a keyboard player, you spend
You know the Well-Tempered clavierreally, really, really well, and you
play it and practice it and all that.
And then you ask all these questions,it's a G minor, the G
minor fugue and book one, whatwas Bach trying to say here?
And you just play it and play itfor years and years.
And all of a sudden you startdiscovering the cantatas and you
find like three cantatas that have anidentical theme and they all have text.
And that text is about Pentecost.
And then all of a suddenyou're realizing like, oh.
Maybe that gives me an insight intowhat the keyboard music is saying.
So yeah.
We had an interview with MichaelMarissen, who is a leading, Bach
scholar and talked a lot about theinterpretation and misinterpretation
of Bach's theology in his music.
Bach is seen as a particularly religiouscomposer, but it also has very
conflicting histories in terms ofthe, the surviving records of his
life and his own personal beliefs.
I think what I love is that Bachwas a, was a complex person and
he wore many different hats.
And, I am a full-time church musician.
That is my, my main, I mean, I, I lovewhat I do with Border CrosSing, but
my health insurance and my incomecomes from my full-time church musician.
When I read Bach's.
Letters andinvoices and complaints.
And, think about Bach workingas a church musician, writing these
cantatas and mote and programming andmanaging all the different choirs.
And, I find that it is a lot moreinteresting to think of Bach in terms
of his everyday work and different hatshe would wear, rather than trying to
look too deeply into what his theologymight have been or what his,
vision for the development of Westernclassical music could have been.
I mean,
maybe he would think about that, but.
I, I can't imagine that being forefronton his mind when he had to churn out all
this music and care for all the kids and
on a weekly basis.
Yeah.
And go over and have coffee and,
and still teach a bunch ofungrateful students and still.
Yes.
So, and I, that definitelygives me a lot more insight, I
think, into how to approach his musicand how to understand it better.
Is there a particular thing thatwhenever you're hearing someone perform
Bach, is there something that you arelistening for that tells you, this
person understands this piece, or thatmight have an understanding of what
Bach was going for, or maybe even justtheir own interpretation that's making
it come alive at that point in time?
Is there something that you'relistening for that tells you
this person has a good idea?
Not one particular thing.
Rather, I'll think, what do I loveat a Bach performance in general?
I love a Bach performance thatdoesn't take itself too seriously.
I love a Bach performance that thatdances as well as it sings that that
includes both elements of rhythm anda full spectrum of human emotion.
And I like a Bach performance that isn'tafraid to break some rules, because
a lot of those quote unquote rules arethings that were established way after the
fact, way after the music was written.
So I guess what I'm looking for isalways what is connecting to some
sort of central spirit in the workrather than following a particular
set of early music informed historicalpractice rules that have been set, or,
I like a little messiness in my Bach.
If it has to come down to a choicebetween it being messy and exciting
or cleaner, but a little bit
sterile.
Sterile.
So yeah, that's, I guess that's thething I, I don't appreciate sterile
Bach, unless it is one of those pieceswhere Bach is being deliberately
sterile, which there are a few of those.
There are a few pieces where Bachis being deliberately stodgy.
You know, delivering a text that is meantto be very straight into the point, so.
And I, I, I think about how maybethe, the most famous interpreter
of keyboard works by Bach, GlennGould is the opposite of sterile.
He broke every rule.
And, at the same time, there are somany, keyboard players, wonderful Bach
Interpreters, who I love maybe as muchas l Gould, who cannot stand Glenn Gould.
I mean, because the thing about GlennGould is that it was such a highly
personal, idiosyncratic interpretationof Bach, that it actually created a style.
Mm-hmm.
It, it became, how can you ever approachthe Bach Goldbergs again without, in some
(22:42):
way being compared to, to the Glenn Gould?
Just curious here.
'cause for me, if I'm listening toa Bach piece, what I'm listening
for is if I can see how hewrote the music in his own hand.
'cause like if I'm looking at this thingat the Singet dem Herrn, for example, and
you can see, just because he was writingit so quickly that the lines are bending.
(23:05):
They're not strict, printedthe way we'd expect them to be.
There are, he's printing thisessentially in a sweatshop with his
children as his, as his, workers.
And you can see just theline of whatever it is.
If it's the soprano line, you can seethe ups and downs, and not just in the
notes, but in where he viewed it asbeing important because there's a little
more weight in that piece of paper.
(23:25):
That's a really interesting point.
And, not just how it's written,but also, the thought
process behind how the piece came about.
Was this something thatstarted as an improvisation?
Is this something that started asa exercise in a particular thing?
You do wanna ask Whatprecisely was the intent of
Bach sitting down to write this?
(23:47):
Because it communicates to you somethingthat is very central to the piece, and
that allows you to communicate that to anaudience, both as a performer, but also
as a, as a conductor when you're tryingto get everyone on board to do a piece.
I really appreciate you noticing howthe, you know, the music is bendy or not.
studying a manuscript gives youlots of little insight into that.
(24:10):
Something that really changed, forexample, how I do Handel was looking at
his manuscripts, particularly Messiahmanuscripts, because something that Handel
did in his manuscripts that you're notalong to see in published editions is that
he used big bar lines and small bar lines.
You'll see a handle score andyou'll see these big old bar
lines that go across the score.
(24:32):
And then you see like the little onesthat are just like carefully drawn out
between staffs or put in even later.
And when you realize like, oh,okay, these big bar lines are
telling you what he thought of asone big musical idea as one phrase.
And these smaller ones are justto show you where the time signature is.
(24:54):
And, I've never seenthat referenced in any textbooks or
in any teaching of heel, except Isaw it in a little obscure CD
booklet by Nicholas Harnoncourt.
He just wrote a little bit like,has anyone noticed the bar line said
Handel, like, just like a sentenceabout how, because, because he was
(25:20):
noted for taking much faster temposand a lot of handle's music, and.
And when I see it, I'm like, oh, okay.
These are like 16 bar chunks thathe's putting under one big thing.
So yeah, there's little things like thatthat come up in a manuscript all the time.
Now, would that change from additionto addition since he revised that
so many times over the years, or?
(25:40):
Well, the thing is that those are thingsthat seem to be kind of consistent, but
what I like to see is that first timewriting it out, because that does tell
you once it gets copied and cleaned up.
That's sort of like you said, thoselittle bendy lines don't show up anymore.
And one of the beautiful things,that I love about the time we're living
(26:01):
in now, especially because I tend tospecialize in obscure repertoire that
isn't published in many cases, most ofthese manuscripts have been digitized.
You can go to IMSLP and look up Bachmanuscripts where you used to have
to go get a facsimile or travel toGermany and dig through an archive.
So this information is now out there for.
(26:24):
Anyone to look at and,integrate into how they make
(27:46):
music.
Ahmed Anzaldúa leading Border CrosSingin “For Unto Us a Child Is
Born" from Handel's Messiah Sungin alternating English and Spanish.
(28:07):
More from Scott McDonald and Zach Singer'sconversation with Border CrosSing.
Founder and music directorAhmed Anzaldúa straight ahead.
This is Bach Talk.
Whenever you're picking a pieceof music and you're going through
these things, do you feel moreresponsibility for the bigger ones?
(28:28):
So like if you're going to look at theSt. John's passion for example, or Singet
dem Herrn, do you feel more responsibilityfor those pieces than if it's something
that's less known where you can maybetake a little bit more liberties or
a little bit more artistic freedoms?
Actually, I think it's the opposite.
So when I perform.
Something that is lesser known.
So, for example, a obscure piece of, a three minute hymn from
(28:54):
Peru that I know hasn't been recorded,that only, there's no edition of it.
We are probably gonna be the firstpeople that touched this piece in
300 years and our recording in ouredition is gonna be a reference point.
And this piece, it's role in.
The choral music scene isa little bit more fragile.
(29:15):
People are gonna judge it a littlebit more harshly if we do it
wrong, because we are referencedbecause there's only one recording.
If I present that piece in a way thatisn't thoughtful and well informed,
people listening are gonna think, well,that Peruvian piece sucks, versus,
oh, Ahmed did not do a good job.
(29:35):
On the other hand, no one's ever gonna think
that the Saint John passion sucksbecause I performed it poorly.
So when I,
you're responsible.
Yeah.
When I conduct Messiah, which in fact,
I feel so much more liberty to playwith those big pieces and put on my
own, twist on them and imprint on themand take more risks because they're
(29:58):
so well established and it is, there'sa little bit less of a responsibility
of you play individually a less of arole in that piece's history, I guess.
one of our sort of premier programs is
a twist on Handel's Messiah.
We do a different version of it,around Christmas where we
(30:21):
mash it up with a LatinAmerican Christmas, cantata
called El Mesías that includes, um.
Andean folk instruments, encanas, accordions.
mashup I mean that theAndean folk instruments are in
the Handel, play reorchestrated.
(30:41):
We do the Handel bilingually.
It jumps around from Spanish and English.
We go from one mood to the otherwithout eruption, and I would not
dare do something like that with apiece that is obscure or new or newly
written because there's a lot moreresponsibility on, making sure
that what we are doing is as authenticto the original intent as possible.
(31:07):
You mentioned when you're doingBach, there is so much scholarship
on historically informed practice.
how much research goes into that?
I'm guessingfor many of the more obscure
pieces from Latin America, thereis not that much scholarship.
Do you end up taking on a lotof the, research to make
the performance authentic.
(31:27):
Yes.
Regardless of what we're performing,I try to do as much research as I
can, just because I love doing that.
I do it for fun.
I listened to all 200 plusBach Cantatas and took notes on them
and try to memorize them becauseI like them and they're fun, so.
(31:49):
Sure.
it is research.
That, and it does come from a senseof obligation, but it also comes
from a sense that I really lovedoing it and it's a lot of fun to do.
I enjoy the conducting, I enjoygetting up on stage and wave my arms
and, playing the harpsichord or whatever, but I enjoy the research of it
(32:09):
as much as I enjoy the performing of it.
Do you view the performance of, obscureworks or celebrating under,
under celebrated, Latin Americancomposers in particular as advocacy?
Or are you simply viewing itas an artistic expression?
Both.
Both things can be true.
it's not just aboutmy intent with it, but also how it's going
(32:34):
to land with the people listening to it.
It is very hard to, especially in today'spolitical climate, to perform music
by immigrants or music from Latin Americawithout it being perceived as, some
sort of activism and in a way it is.
(32:54):
I am an immigrant myselfand a lot of Border CrosSing's
work is in the activist space.
But it is also artistic expression.
Both things.
Certainly in, Minneapolis and St. Paul.
You mentioned that there's a lot ofdifferent diasporas, and different
communities when, you're goingto perform a work, that includes
(33:17):
something like Indian Carnatic music.
are, you reaching out to thosecommunities and trying to involve.
other immigrant, performers and, those who are really well versed
in those, diaspora community music?
Absolutely all the time.
any music we perform, there is an element of expertise that
(33:41):
you have to seek out and it's justthe same if I am performing,
a Bach cantata, I do my research.
Unfortunately, most, choralmusicians, choral directors with
the sort of degrees that I have, havehad many years of education in how
to perform back correctly, right?
(34:02):
But almost none of us have education,how to perform in Carnatic music or even
music from the Black Gospel tradition.
Like even though it'subiquitous everywhere.
So what you do is you seek out thatexpertise, you seek out collaborations,
and you pay them for their time.
You work, build a relationship, soyou perform everything together.
(34:22):
Border CrosSing is built on severalvalues, access, relevance, and
the most important one, I think, orthe first one, is representation.
So we try to make sure that whatwe are doing on stage is accurately
representative of what the music is,who that music is originally performed
by, what that music means, and thatvaries on a case to case basis.
(34:45):
There's music that is inappropriatepresenting it without the
people that created it or the peoplethat, it is just inappropriate.
(35:56):
Where, in other cases, that doesn'treally apply and it's just about being
thoughtful about how you're doing it.
Just as a responsible performer,just out of artistic integrity, anything
I perform, I will try to seek out.
As many resources as I canto do it as well as I can.
And in a lot of cases, like withIndian Carnatic music, that means
that those resources are people.
Right.
People that can do it.
Right, and people whosevoices deserve to be heard.
And people who, as you said, deserveto be paid for their time and
their expertise and their knowledge.
It's certainly a hot buttonissue in almost every,
choir and every choir conference.
Is, the, the topic of culturalappropriation, is it appropriate for
a majority white choir to performblack gospel music or to perform,
music by Latin American composerseven to perform, music in
other languages that are not English?
what would you, what are your thoughtson, that extremely controversial topic?
this is something I get askedabout because I've sort of built up a reputation about it.
cultural appropriation versus culturalexchange is a very misunderstood thing,
and I've found that the damage, thatfear in this space causes does a lot more
(36:22):
damage to the idea of doing things wrongbecause there's so much music that is
not performed because of people's fear.
I think that it is important tobe thoughtful and well-informed,
but the idea, the classic questionis, is it appropriate for a
majority white or entirely whitechoir to perform Black music.
(36:46):
And almost always the answer is yes.
When you work in ruralMinnesota, for example, a lot of the
time a singer that is in a choir, let'ssay random middle school somewhere,
that might be their only exposure toBlack music or Black culture, right?
not only is it appropriate, itis at least in the educational space.
(37:11):
Necessary.
It is a duty of choir directorsto make sure that their singers
are exposed to music that reallyrepresents the wide diversity of
musics and culture expressions.
In this country.
I mean, we don't make funof English language learners
whenever they mispronounce a word.
(37:31):
We shouldn't.
Why would we judge a group if they'redoing something poorly, if they're
trying, that seems like an areafor communication and outreach and
dialogue rather than an instant shutdown.
And that's, that's the wordthat you said if they're trying.
So I think it is the best practice toalways assume good intent, unfortunately.
(37:52):
The intent isn't always good.
I have seen cases, extreme cases wherethere was bad intent, but in almost
every case, you wanna assume good intent,and that people are trying their best.
You start there, if I as a Mexicanmusician go to a performance and
hear music, that is misrepresentingmy culture in some way, and that
(38:16):
can be a wide variety of things.
It can be words that are slightlymispronounced, or it can be taking a
very solemn and sacred Nahuatl songand performing it with marimbas and
dance and colorful, dresses whenit was meant to be a funerary song.
(38:36):
Both, both things are true.
I will generally think, okay,there's good intent and if appropriate.
Try to contribute, say, Hey, this wasn't,this works, this didn't work.
You should maybe try this.
even though you want toassume good intent, you also,
(38:59):
want to consider what the impact is.
And impact and harm is always gonnabe more important than intent, and
the impact of perpetuating a particularstereotype about Latin American music,
even if the intent is good, is real.
Latin American immigrants dealwith certain stereotypes all the time.
(39:23):
We are characterized as lazy.
We're characterized as wanting to partyall the time, not taking things seriously.
We are characterized as sortof being drains on the system.
These are stereotypes and whenmusic and culture is represented
in ways that aren't thoughtful.
Those stereotypes are pushed alongand when people, view the
(39:46):
world through their stereotypes,they treat others a certain way.
They vote a certain way.
They spend their money a certain way.
They hire a certain way.
So impact is real.
(40:07):
You are listening to the Sanctusfrom the Misa Criolla by the
Argentinian composer Ariel Ramirez.Border CrosSing is conducted by our
featured guest today, Ahmed Anzaldúa.
It's music from their album“UnMilagro de Fe” A Miracle of Faith.
You can obtain it and learn muchmore about Ahmed and Border CrosSing.
(40:31):
By going to their website,BorderCrosSingmn.org.
Don't just search border crossingor you'll be led down a rabbit hole.
That's Border CrosSingmn.org.
(50:25):
Do you enjoy hearing about otherchoral ensembles besides The
Bach Society of Saint Louis?
Let us know.
Take a moment right now to contact us,just go to bachsociety.org and click on
Bach Talk under the watch and listen tab.
There's a simple form you can use toask your question or leave a comment.
If you'd rather interact more, just sendus an email, Bachtalk@bachsociety.org.
Today's music used by permission.
The associate producer of Bach Talk isScott MacDonald, and Scott was joined
by The Bach Society's Zach Singer.
Their conversation with Dr. An Anzaldúatook place at the 2025 Conference
of Chorus America here in St. Louis.
Additional assistance today providedby Ian Gilbert and by Carissa Marek
and Andy Murphy of Right relations.
I'm Ron Klemm.
Bach Talk is a registered trademarkof The Bach Society of Saint Louis.
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