February 17, 2026 • 48 mins
The conversation continues with conductor and baroque specialist Nicholas McGegan as we dive deeper into the story behind Handel’s Messiah. From the fascinating (and sometimes prickly!) relationship between Handel and librettist Charles Jennens to the surprising origins of the work in secular performance spaces, this episode uncovers the history, drama and humanity behind one of the most beloved choral masterworks of all time.
Nic shares vivid stories about the legendary singers who first performed Messiah, explains why Handel put the words first, and reflects on what makes this music timeless. Plus, A. Dennis Sparger offers personal insight as The Bach Society prepares to present a major portion of this extraordinary work.
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Ron Klemm (00:00):
This is Bach Talk.
Nicholas McGegan (00:15):
Unlike many of his works, it's words first, he
doesn't cover the words in beautifulflute solos, and only occasionally
in rejoice does he have what youmight call color a tour the fancy.
Vocal vocalist.
It's all about the words.
Ron Klemm (00:44):
He's talking about George Frederick Handel's text centric
approach in his beloved Orial Messiah.
And if anyone should know, it'sour esteemed guest again today.
The British born conductor andHandel specialist Nicholaus McGegan.
Nicholas McGegan (01:01):
In a secular space like the Cogo Theater.
Or Powell Hall, a concert hallis, the acoustics aren't so boomy,
so you can really hear the words.
Yeah.
Clarity.
Clarity and Handel, liked clarity.
Ron Klemm (01:30):
Hello and welcome to Bach Talk.
I'm Ron Klemm.
Last time we shared the first part ofan extended visit with Nicholas McGegan,
widely acknowledged as one of the finestconductors and baroque specialists of
our time, Bach Society, music directorand conductor, A. Dennis Sparger.
And I sat down for more than an hourwith the music director emeritus.
(01:54):
Of the San Francisco based PhilharmoniaBaroque Orchestra & Chorale.
We covered a variety of topics,including Nic's years here in
St. Louis, early in his career.
If you missed any of our previousconversation with Nic, be sure to
check out last month's episode ofBach Talk, living the Nic Life.
(02:15):
I think you'll find it engaging,enlightening, and downright delightful.
I know we did.
As you may recall, Dennis and I caughtup with Nic here in St. Louis while he
was in the middle of a December tour.
Guest conducting Handels best known workMessiah in several cities, and since
The Bach Society of Saint Louis willbe performing a major portion of this
(02:38):
oratorial at their concert in March.
We thought it particularlyappropriate to share that part
of our visit with you today.
Let's pick up the conversationwhere we left off The Bach Society
of St. Louis has performed, Handelsoratorial, Messiah many times, but
not as many times as you have Nic.
(03:00):
So, let's talk about perhaps themost popular oratorial of all
and what it means, the origins ofit, and this guy named Jennens.
Nicholas McGegan (03:15):
Well, we think of it as Handel's Messiah, but Charles Jennens
would've been extraordinarily grumpy'cause he thought it was his messiah.
And he's right because he'sthe one who had the idea.
Yeah.
He wrote the libretto or wrote, assembledthe libretto and sent it to Handel.
And he didn't like what Handel did either.
He, he thought the overture was awful,but said that Hannah was too lazy
(03:37):
or obstinate to change it for him.
Charles Jennens was a extremelyrich, single gentleman.
He owned, I think Iron Works, coalmines, all that sort of thing.
Never went down any of them.
Of course, he lived in an enormoushouse, which unfortunately was
(03:58):
pulled down in our lifetime.
Ron Klemm (03:59):
Is that right?
Nicholas McGegan (04:00):
Pulled down in the fifties it had been.
Used during the Second World Waras a military hospital and mm-hmm.
Place, and they was effectively trashed,the gardens are still there and the temple
to Handel the ruins of it is still there.
And it was huge.
He had a huge house in Londontoo, which was pulled down in
the 19th century and it's now agreat Ormond Street Hospital site.
(04:22):
And he was a very, very strange manindeed, because he had a somewhat.
Kooky religious belief that EnglishChurch of England Protestants
were the only true religiousdescendants of Old Testament jewelry.
Everybody else had messed it upwith paintings and idols and things.
(04:45):
So that was his thing.
That, and, uh, if you want to, there'sa terrific book by a friend of mine
called Michael Marissen called TaintedGlory, which shows just right went
through Jennens library, which if wedon't actually have the book, we know
what it was, to see what he was reading.
And it's pretty awful stuff.
(05:05):
So when it says, you know,thou shalt break them, it meant
anybody who disagreed with me.
Ron Klemm (05:11):
Hallelujah.
Yes.
You'll be surprised to know perhaps thatDennis and I spent an hour with Michael
Marissen on this very Bach Talk podcast.
He's a fascinating guy.
Nicholas McGegan (05:22):
And so you should, because he spent some
time at Washington Union.
Ron Klemm (05:25):
Yes, he did.
And you were there at the same time?
Nicholas McGegan (05:27):
I was there at the same time.
And he's a fantastic scholar.
Ron Klemm (05:29):
Now back to this Jennens Handel collaboration.
Maybe that's too strong a word.
Nicholas McGegan (05:34):
I think it is, yes.
Ron Klemm (05:34):
Really?
Okay.
Why?
Nicholas McGegan (05:36):
I think 'cause Jennens was a tremendous snob.
And he thought that Handelshould simply write.
I think Handel was treated byJennens rather, like some British
Duke would treat his French chef.
You know, he couldn't do ithimself and he knew what he wanted.
But, and he felt if it wasn't quiteup to what he wanted or didn't.
(06:00):
You won't cook this, you won't cook thisVenice in the way I like it kind of thing.
He would, he would say so.
But he was Handel's, on the otherhand, he was Handel's biggest
fan of the stuff that he loved.
Which was a lot of the operas.
And an enormous collection of Handels.
Music is now in Manchester.
In England in and not just Handelone of the things that's, well,
(06:23):
two things that survive there.
One, are what's known as the VivaldiManchester Sonatas, which are violin
sonatas that survive nowhere else.
And the other thing that survive,which is quite extraordinary, is in
the winter, in Vivaldi seasons, thereis a cello part in the SLO movement.
Which goes your,
and that was a single page inthe printed scores, which has
(06:45):
fallen out of everybody's copiesexcept Jennens ones in Manchester.
And so now it's beenput back thanks to him.
Ron Klemm (06:52):
How about that?
Nicholas McGegan (06:53):
And he had a, he had an organ, which Handel helped
say what he wanted, what stops hewanted, how and Handel oversaw the.
Um, the construction ofit, and it still exists.
It's in great Packington churchin the Midlands in England, and so
you can actually, it still has the,the big bellow, the, the hand-blown
(07:14):
bellows if you want to use them.
Yeah.
They've got the big the big sort ofwheelbarrow things on the side and, uh.
He had a lovely music room and,but, and, uh, he worked on, this
is not his first rodeo with Handel.
He worked with Saul, which is a, alibretto that Jan did actually write.
And it's, it's like allJennensnensnens's stuff.
It's extremely well constructed.
Ron Klemm (07:37):
Now we're talking about the Oratorial, Solemn.
Nicholas McGegan (07:39):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
So the acts all flow together beautifully.
He then did Allegro, which is I think thefinest of these, which he took two poems.
One about people being very jollyor overly jolly, and the other about
being overly academic and glum.
They're two separate poems by John Milton.
He sort of sandwiched themtogether like a layer cake.
So what the jolly one is then.
(08:00):
Juxtaposed with a serious one.
And then he wrote a third partwhere the poet is less successful
because he wrote it rather thanMilton, uh, basically looking very
Buddhist, looking for the middle way.
Oh, not too jolly and not too glum.
Then there's Messiah, and finallyis Bel Shaza, which also has an
incredibly well put together libretto.
So things.
There's a drama that Jennens got.
(08:23):
Which he gets, and I think one of thefinest things of all is the second act
of second part, I should say, of Messiah.
That the way it goes frombehold the Lamb of God to
hallelujah and how it gets there.
Mm-hmm.
It is just gripping that it, itdoes, you get contrast, but things
build up to the great chorus.
Mm-hmm.
(08:43):
And to cut it, which we allhave to do a bit now Yeah.
Is kind of a shame.
'cause it, it takes a bit out of it.
But the whole thing isextremely well put together.
And that's, and Jennens chosethe words, he had two choices.
The King James Bible.
But also the Book of Common Prayer, whichis actually older, it's 16th century
as opposed to 17th century English.
And he would.
Got, he found the one that was mostcomprehensible if it was going to be sung,
(09:06):
the one that had the easiest grammar.
Mm-hmm.
And that's a very skillful thing to do.
Ron Klemm (09:10):
It is.
Yeah.
Oh, and just to find it and figure it out.
Nicholas McGegan (09:13):
Figure it out.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it, it is, its a very unusualpiece of Handel in the sense
it has no named characters.
Unlike, say the Matthew Passion,Jesus does not appear in the
second act of Messiah, right?
He's sung about, but he doesn'tactually the Virgin Mary doesn't
appear in part one, so it's, it'smore contemplative in that way, but
(09:34):
he managed to make drama out of itwithout having characters saying, hi,
my name is s Samson, or My name is Saul.
(10:18):
Now we are, I'm on a sort of Messiah tourright now, so I've got nearly five weeks
of it, and so I'm going from city to city.
Around the country had one week off forThanksgiving, but that was different.
But when I arrived in KansasCity, it was minus God knows what.
And now in St. Louis, so we are talkingin December and I didn't need a coat.
Ron Klemm (10:41):
Yes.
We should be hitting 50 today.
Nicholas McGegan (10:43):
It's gonna, it's going to sink as always.
Ron Klemm (10:45):
Well, speaking of Messiah, you, you've conducted many major
works, you know, like Messiah, dozens,perhaps even hundreds of times.
How do you keep it fresh?
Nicholas McGegan (10:54):
It's kept fresh for me because I'm always
doing it with different people.
Uh, I've got four different performancesnow this particular Christmas, and
in every single one, at least one, ifnot two of the soloists are different.
So the soloist that I had in Milwaukeethree weeks ago is in St. Louis.
(11:17):
The Metso, I should say thecontralto I had in Kansas City,
but she wasn't in Milwaukee.
We have a French Canadianbase here in St. Louis.
It's there's, and theydo their own things.
Mm-hmm.
I encourage them if they're going toornament that they do their own Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Thing.
And of course it's adifferent symphony every time.
Some I know.
Like St. Louis.
I first, I first did my very firstcomplete Messiah was with the Saint
(11:41):
Louis Symphony in 1986.
So that's, I wondered about that.
Yes.
That's 39 years ago.
Lorraine Hunt Lisson was the soprano then.
Ron Klemm (11:47):
Oh God.
Bless your soul.
Nicholas McGegan (11:48):
And so it was a very, that was, they did it complete in those
days with doing it slightly snipped.
But sometimes a symphony will say, nowwe had an enormous Messiah last year.
Can we have a more baroque one this year?
So rather than have a chorus of150, could we have a chorus of 60?
So that again affects how you do it.
Yeah.
Sometimes it's the other way around.
(12:09):
You also get, well we had acounter 10 of last year, so can
you have a lady alto this year?
Mm-hmm.
Things that just keep it.
Not keeping fresh for me,but keeping for the audience.
You would make sure, for example,that you didn't have the same tenor
two years in a row in the same place.
So I have a, a sort of little coterieof singers that I worked with.
(12:32):
Ah, I thought so.
Yes.
And some of whom you know verywell too, that we use as well.
Yes.
And so, I know what.
Ornaments they're going to do, butthey might change them, of course.
Oh yeah.
And so, I know what, say the rejoicethat I did last week was a little
bit slower than the one I'm doing it.
And.
If, since I believe that glory toGod, which is the movement that comes
(12:52):
before, followed by rejoice, shouldbasically be at the same speed.
Mm-hmm.
If we have a slightly slowerrejoice, then I have to do a
slightly slower glory to God.
Yeah.
Uh, where the trumpets are called,Handel calls them for them to be Ana,
which means from a distance away.
Mm-hmm.
Uhhuh.
Now, last week in Kansas City, theyhave an organ at the back of the stage.
They were up in the Organ Galleryreally with the pipes, so they were
(13:14):
actually even higher than the angels.
That possibility doesn'texist in Powell Hall?
No.
They have to open the main stagedoor so that they're definitely
grounded trumpet, angels.
I've had them in a balconywith the audience before.
Mm-hmm.
Um, do they move places in the,in the course of the No, they,
they stay right where they are.
It's the only thing they playin part one, so they can.
(13:35):
Stay where they are.
Stay where they are.
And of course, if they're not seen,they don't even have to put their
black clothes or their tails on course.
They could do it in, they could doit in their gym jams for all I care.
So it, it does make a huge difference.
Yeah.
And the halls make a difference.
Yes.
Yeah, of course.
Now, of course, I'm about to get toPowell Hall in a few hours and I've not
been to the, the newly renovated, I'veonly seen pictures, so I can't wait.
Ron Klemm (13:57):
You're going to love it.
Nicholas McGegan (13:58):
I'm told that I won't notice much difference on stage.
'Cause that's pretty, though they'vepolished the floor ones, it'll
be a bit more resonant, but, butI'll certainly notice backstage.
And I'll try to go out into theauditorium where I'll certainly
notice a big difference.
Mm-hmm.
So, uh, and then Kansas Citylast week, it's a wonderful
new hall, the Kaufman Center.
It's absolutely fantastic.
(14:19):
And it's an opera house and,a concert hall in the same
building, which is marvelous.
And I was in Milwaukeea couple of weeks ago.
That is like Powell Hall, arenovated movie house, right?
Mm-hmm.
And they've done a similar thing.
They've encased it in a modernbuilding, which has cafes, the
dressing rooms, rehearsal rooms,the library and everything.
(14:41):
But you go in in it, and you are in, youthink that Lillian G is about to come in?
Tiffany chandeliers.
The whole thing.
It's very, it is way overthe top and murals beautiful,
painted murals everywhere.
Acoustically, it's wonderful.
Yes.
So very different.
This uh, and I always have this verystrange thing that the concert hall in
Pittsburgh is by the, exactly the samearchitect who did Powell Hall here.
(15:06):
That's correct.
It's a low, it's aLowe's theater, I think.
So all the decorations and thecolors are exactly the same.
Hmm.
And so it's just made to fit theslightly different building site.
Mm-hmm.
And I get, I say, which 1:00 AM I in?
Well, yeah.
Wow.
Make sure you're not hung overwhen you go in there the next day.
Where am I?
What sitting am I in?
It is exactly, you'd be happy tofind that your dressing room is
on the same level as the stage.
Ron Klemm (15:27):
So you don't have to worry about an elevator which, that may
Nicholas McGegan (15:30):
The sixth floor.
Yes.
Yes.
Which has stuck in PowellHall many times, I'm sure.
Including I'm during a livebroadcast that I was doing,
you were on the seventhfloor, weren't you?
Yes.
Yes.
I'd go up to that, yes.
And then if there had been, you'd haveto go down that rickety staircase.
Ron Klemm (15:43):
That's right.
I was.
(16:37):
A short portion of the so-calledangel sequence from George
Frederick Handel's Oratorio Messiah.
The Phil Harmonia Baroque was conducted byNicholas McGegan , and speaking of angels.
The soprano who was heard therebriefly was the late great
Lorraine Hunt Lisson, who died ofbreast cancer at the age of 52.
(16:59):
Earlier in that segment, we also hearda portion of Behold the Lamb of God from
the B Society's performance of 2023.
More from Dr. Spargers and myconversation with conductor
Nicholas McGegan straight ahead.
And later I'll ask Dennis to giveus some of his personal observations
(17:23):
on presenting this magnificent work.
You are listening to Bach talk.
We are talking about something thatwas written for the theater, and I
don't wanna make assumptions on this,but most people's association with
Messiah has nothing to do with thetheater and more to do with the church.
(17:44):
So let's talk about that.
Why is that good or bad?
Nicholas McGegan (17:48):
First of all, it was first performed there in
what was called the music Hall.
And one of the reasons that Handelwent to Dublin is he was invited by
the Duke of Aventure, who was the Lordlieutenant to a. Basically do the first
concert series in a new music building.
But it was a secular music building.
It's not a church.
He had the option he didn't, in the end ofdoing it at one of the two cathedrals St.
(18:11):
Patrick's and the other one,Christchurch, I think it is.
But, uh, the Dean of St.Patrick's wouldn't have it.
He was Jonathan Swift, whowrote Gull of His Travels Oh.
About that.
He said, I don't want any ofthese foreign fiddlers around.
Uh, but he was allowed, heeventually allowed the choir to
sing because it was a charity show.
When he got back to London, he did itin Covent Garden, and he always did
(18:34):
it in Covent Garden when he could.
First of all, there were no concerthalls big enough to take the audience.
And we'll come to when it was done later,but, the Bishop of London tried to ban it
'cause he didn't like the idea of ItalianCatholic women singing the word of God.
Oh, my, uh, tradition of the, the,the Lord, the Bishop of London
has traditionally been a prudein the 18th century and they
(18:56):
got a real doozy for that one.
It's one of the things that is great isthat in a secular space like the Covent
Garden Theater or Powell Hall, a concerthall is, the acoustics aren't so boomy.
So you can really hear the words.
Clarity.
Clarity.
And Handel liked clarity.
He's an opera.
(19:16):
Mm-hmm.
He's using, a lot of the time he'susing opera singers to sing in Messiah.
Some of them are Italian sinceSina or Senior Alio was the
soprano at least some of the time.
Uh, GU, the big Castrato, who then.
Look later wrote AEO for Oh, wasthe chap for whom he was despised?
(19:36):
No, it was, but who may abide?
Oh, it was written for, the originalversion of that is for bass.
But Ani came along.
Mm-hmm.
Bach.
Bach office gold gives him the best thingto ing and writes him new thing to sing.
The the tennis weregenerally English and the.
The Metso contralto in Dublinand whenever possible later was
(19:59):
Susanna Sba, who was the equivalentof someone like Glenn Close.
She was the most famous actressof her day with David Garrick,
and she specialized in tragedy.
Aha.
And she lived a. I wouldn't say now, butas those days a scandalous life, uh oh.
(20:20):
But we would not think it particularly.
She couldn't read music butshe was incredibly musical.
Her brother was Thomas awho wrote Wil Britannia.
Sure.
And she married Theophilus sba, whowas an actor of no great talent and
under British law in those days.
He was entitled, any Man Was entitledto all of his wife's income and he spent
(20:45):
her money from her being a successfulactress on booze gambling and birds.
And she said no.
So he's, would you believe, sued her foradultery, which is what he was doing.
Ron Klemm (21:02):
Oh my goodness.
Nicholas McGegan (21:02):
And so you go to Dublin.
Ron Klemm (21:05):
History is stranger than fiction, isn't it?
Nicholas McGegan (21:06):
Yes.
You go to Dublin, more or less inthe same way as you nowadays, perhaps
go to Las Vegas to get away fromit all and, and Handel, therefore,
wrote for her he was despised.
Yes.
And at the first performance.
The Dean, Dean Delaney mm-hmm.
Stood up and said, Madam, for allthis, made thy sins be forgiven.
(21:27):
Yes.
The completely Baltimore,she could make anybody cry.
How about that?
And I would love to have heard, to sing.
There's a wonderful book about her calledThe Provoked Wife, which she surely was.
And it's a very good read.
But he just had these great singersand he had a, if you look at his
score, it's fantastic because he writesthe names of every single singer.
(21:48):
Mm-hmm.
Sometimes does like 10names over one aria.
And sometimes he'd rewriteit for a particular person.
He transpose it for somebody, buthe's always writing for specific
singers when he needed to.
The tenor was John Bed, who'sthe heroic tenor, and he had sung
for Handel pretty much as a boy.
As a boy.
Soprano grew up to be a tenor in opera,and then he ended up in management.
(22:09):
So it definitely, churchesis, the churches are the
unusual place for it to be.
Mm-hmm.
Until we get to the foundling hospital,which is the charity that had Handel.
That is the orphan main orphanageof London, which was founded by a
sea captain called Thomas Corrum.
And it was built it.
The site is still there.
It's just north of the British Museum.
(22:30):
Ahuh and bits of it is still there.
The gates I think, are still there.
Unfortunately, the chapel waspulled down in the 1920s, which
is where Handel actually did it?
I've got photographs of it, but you do,I wish they reconstructed and that, and
Handel's music that his own set of parts.
Which is known as the founding hospitalset that he gave are still there.
(22:51):
And the other person who was very muchpart of it was the painter, William
Hogarth, who gave paintings there.
So you've got Handel's Music and thesewonderful 18th century paintings,
including one of Thomas Corrum to mentionanother book for your reading pleasure.
It's called Every Valleyand it's by Charles King.
And it's simply the.
It came out this year, last year.
(23:12):
He is a journalist, not amusician, but a music lover.
And it's about Handel, Charles Jennes,Thomas Corrum, and several other
people and their, how their lives allintertwined and unlike Musicologists,
with a very few exceptions, hewrites beautifully and clearly, but
it's a wonderful, wonderful book.
(23:33):
How fascinating.
Charles King, everybody.
Ron Klemm (24:13):
I gotta say something very personal.
The texts in Messiah speak very deeply tome because of who I am, what I believe.
That isn't always the case for people.
What is your goal?
What is your responsibilitywhen you perform Messiah?
(24:35):
Don't think about that at all.
Don't think about me or someonelike me or how do you approach it?
Nicholas McGegan (24:43):
I think Handel does the first part of what I believe.
Beautifully and very carefully, andthat is that unlike many of his works,
it's words, first, he doesn't coverthe words in beautiful flute solos, and
only occasionally in rejoice does hehave what you might call color rhetoric.
(25:05):
The fancy vocal.
Mm-hmm.
Vocal is it's all about thewords communicating the text.
Text.
And that's why.
Uh, I have a chorus rehearsal coming up.
I should be working very hardon the text to make sure that
the s are rolled, for example.
Things like that.
That seems to, I mean,it was a wonderful thing.
(25:25):
I think his name was Lord MountEdgecomb who said to Handel after
a performance, thank you, Mr.
Handel, for your entertainment.
And Handel said, I wasn't tryingto entertain you, my Lord.
I was trying to make you better.
Ron Klemm (25:37):
Yes.
Well, isn't that what music should be?
Nicholas McGegan (25:39):
And I don't mean necessarily religiously better.
I mean, just to make, to upliftyou, to make you think about
our condition on this earth.
To realize if you wish to take,to wish you take option of it.
Eternal life.
We conduct this, of coursewe know where we are going.
We have a nice place reserv thisdownstairs, but I don't think that's true.
But uh, as long as you sing, you go up.
(26:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I think it's, it's, it is it's also.
Though Jans would disagree with this,it is pleasingly, non-sectarian.
It doesn't say you have tobelieve in transubstantiation.
Yeah.
Or the gnarly bits.
Yes.
Of whatever it is.
It's not got some of the, theAnglo-Catholic or Roman Catholic
(26:22):
stuff, nor does it have the deepdown groveling, sort of more Baptist
type of, and worse kind of stuff.
It's just right there in the middle.
Yeah.
So it's asking you to say, this iswhat the Bible said would happen.
This is what happened, andthis is why we believe it.
Yeah.
Without getting into the weeds.
(26:43):
And I think that's a veryimportant thing for everybody.
But it's also, I think, perfectly possibleto take it as a non-religious experience
as you can the Matthew passionate.
Mm-hmm.
It can equally well be aboutthe sufferings of a man.
What happened to him afterwardsis a different story, but.
Whatever happened to Christ inthe passions is horrible and to.
(27:05):
And then people come in and say whatthey think about it, uh, or that
they'd like to join or whatever.
But the Messiah basicallysays, this is what's predicted.
And this is how he suffered andthis is what happened afterwards.
And if we are, if we don't do terriblynaughty things, we might take part in it.
Uh, and that's, that's hopefor all mankind, basically.
(27:26):
And that's a good thing.
But it doesn't take, say thatyou have to go to purgatory for a
thousand years or, have a ChantryChapel built in the local cathedral.
It's just separate from all of that,and I find therefore it has a much
more universal message, which I find isenormously appealing as it should be.
(27:47):
It's lovely to have it atChristmas, but of course that's
not where Handel intended it to be.
Ron Klemm (27:51):
I was going to ask you that because The Bach Society of St. Louis
performs it with greater frequency, eitherduring Lent or in the Easter season.
Nicholas McGegan (28:00):
Handel in the late 1730s was very nearly bankrupt.
He was also quite ill.
It's possible he had a stroke.
He also had a carriage accident, andat some point, one of his hands, he
couldn't write with one of his hands,just gave up, couldn't play really,
and he slowly started to get better.
And then he thought, no, London.
Great.
(28:20):
They're doing opera except inthe 40 days before Easter, when.
Even the Church of Englandsaid, no theater, no opera.
Mm-hmm.
But what have you got?
You've got a lot of people who are notsupposed to have their beef steaks.
You've got an orchestra that's unemployed.
You've got a lot of unemployed singers.
Yeah.
A theater that's dark basically.
(28:40):
Not doing very chopping atthe bit to do something.
Yeah.
So if we do a sacred oratorial, oreven a nons, sacred orator, like semi.
It's okay.
So this is called business opportunity?
Yes.
And he found it and he went from beingalmost bankrupt to being worth over 20,000
pounds when he died, which is severalmillion right now, because basically
(29:00):
from the oratorio he also did them inEnglish, or mostly in English because.
Occasionally it'd slip in an Italian ariaor the singer's Italian was so strong
you couldn't understand the English.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, there were parodies of that, but so,but he got the opera stars who everyone
(29:21):
wanted to see singing rejoice or whatever.
Yes.
And got to hear that he was able touse the choirs of Westminster IES
at Bulls Cathedral because there isno music during Lent except hymns.
No fancy mots and thingsso they could rehearse.
And, uh, he also managed to getan a, a town audience rather
(29:42):
than a aristocratic audience.
And also, not Messiah particularly,but for a lot of the Old Testament
oratories, there's a fairly large Jewishpopulation, some of whom were moneyed and.
Came to support the OldTestament Oratories.
Mm-hmm.
What there's, even just after Handel'sdeath, a singer called Michael Leon.
(30:02):
Michael Lyon, who sangtenor except on the Sabbath.
He was Maya Lion and was the cantor ofthe Duke Street Synagogue, but he sang
at Common Gone the rest of the time.
So he'd go between the Oratoriasinging opera and the synagogue.
Yeah.
And John Bram, who was the one alittle bit later and uh, sort of ran
(30:23):
the turn, ran the Napoleonic period.
Bram is short for Abraham.
Right.
And, uh, he was Jewish obviously.
How about that?
His girlfriend, uh oh.
Was Nancy Doris the first?
Susanna?
And they had a child who ended up asan English Church of England Vicar.
So, so you've got, you've covered prettymuch all the bases, everything covered.
(30:44):
But he even sang for Mendelssohnand he was just supposedly the
greatest owner of that period.
So there, so they werereligiously pretty flexible too.
And there is Mendelssohn, whowas obviously of a Jewish family,
but brought up as a Lutheran.
So they were kind of, theywere pretty free and easy.
Mm-hmm.
And that's why a lot ofthem ended up in Britain.
(31:05):
'cause we didn't care as much.
Ron Klemm (31:48):
Soprano, Michelle Kennedy, together with The Bach Society of St.
Louis Orchestra, conducted by DennisBarker and a brief portion of, I
know that my redeemer liveth from apresentation of Handels Messiah in 2023.
We also heard an excerpt of SinceBy Man Came Death earlier in this
segment from that same performance.
(32:10):
Plus tenor Jeffrey Thomas andthe Phil Harmonia Baroque, led by
Nicholas McGegan . In a samplingof every valley shall be exalted.
That recording of Messiah, by the way,is one of more than a hundred albums
in Nic's discography, including morethan 50, featuring the music of Handel.
(32:32):
This one was recorded in 1991, and whenI blew the dust off the case and opened
the CD booklet, there was Nic's autograph,along with a brief encouraging message to
a young classical music radio announcer.
I had forgotten that he had signed it,but now I will treasure it even more.
(32:53):
I hope you enjoyed our conversationwith Conductor Nicholas McGegan
today, as well as last month.
If you did, please let us know.
You can contact us at bachsociety.org.
Just click on Bach Talk underthe watch and listen tab.
Just ahead a footnote on today'sconversation, plus Dennis's
(33:15):
personal thoughts as The BachSociety of St. Louis prepares for
its next presentation of Handel's.
Messiah, in a few weeks, youare listening to Bach talk.
(33:56):
I'm here with Bach Society Music Directorand conductor Dennis Sparger, and what a
thrill it was to have a chance to chat.
With someone who is so familiarwith this amazing piece.
Dennis Sparger (34:09):
It's a rare opportunity, isn't it?
Ron Klemm (34:10):
It really is, and the thing that I loved about it was with all
this great detail that he would giveus, you could also recognize he had
a personal connection with the music.
What, what impressed you the mostabout our conversation with Nic?
Dennis Sparger (34:26):
Well, well, his extensive experience.
You know, he's done it.
I guess just hundreds of times.
And, uh, you know, from each time heconducts it, he learns something more.
This is something, you know, I think weall discover, but he's had, you know,
so many chances to do this again andagain, and learning from each, each time.
Ron Klemm (34:43):
You asked him a fascinating question about,
uh, how do you keep it fresh?
Yes.
Yeah.
And what, and what did he say?
He said.
He doesn't have to worry about that.
Dennis Sparger (34:52):
Yes.
Yeah.
The music does it for him.
Exactly.
And you know, having new soloists,having a new orchestra, this just
brings up new options for him.
Ron Klemm (35:02):
In the 21st century it is difficult do to do a work like Messiah,
even though people know and loveMessiah, it's difficult to do the entire
work simply because of the length.
We're no longer usedto that type of thing.
Oh, that's true.
But you decided.
In your infinite wisdom and experienceto, to just do the parts that
(35:25):
relate to the season of the year.
And lo and behold, that'swhen Handel did it.
Yes.
Yes.
So tell me about that decision.
Dennis Sparger (35:33):
Well, it, it just seemed to make sense to give the audience
something that they, to make a pun,but they could Handel that, uh, because
if you're sitting for, you know, likethree hours, three and a quarter hours.
In a church pew that gets a little.
Tiring.
Yeah.
Just physically you know, in a,in a concert hall with comfortable
(35:53):
seats, it's, I think it's,it's quite possible to do that.
Uh, but we perform largely inchurches and we want the audience to
still have some degree of freshnessby the time we get to the amen.
Ron Klemm (36:06):
Yeah.
As Nic pointed out, Handelput text first and didn't, and
didn't always worry about that.
He was more about musicalornamentation and everything else.
Oh, and he gets all of thatstuff out of the way for this.
So the text is absolutely vital.
It's, is that how you approach it?
Dennis Sparger (36:22):
It's, it certainly drives the whole piece, right?
Doesn't it?
It does.
And while, while Messiah is not anarrative that is, it does not tell a
story with characters, uh, there is amovement forward in the selection of
the scriptures, uh, to take us from theprophecy all the way, through the passion
(36:42):
of Christ and, uh, the resurrection.
And finally with our thanksgiving andpraise at the end, that makes it all work.
So there is like a driving force.
With the words and the words are setto music so carefully that you can hear
them, you can understand what's going on.
Right, right.
Ron Klemm (37:00):
And of course, they're in English and no subtitles necessary.
The fact that, as you said, it's nota narrative, but in a sense, we're
picking up the story in the middle.
Yes.
Yeah.
Tell me about that.
Dennis Sparger (37:10):
Well, you know, there are, you know, certain
steps that are taking place.
You know, that arestarting with a passion.
So we're able to, uh, to, to follow,you know, the struggle the agony,
the, uh, the torture, the crucifixion,uh, and finally the resurrection.
So we get all of this, youknow, through part two.
Ron Klemm (37:29):
And then of course, part three, as you said, yes.
Is all about Thanksgiving.
Yes.
And eternal life.
The Bach Society of St. Louissings a lot about eternal life.
Dennis Sparger (37:39):
Exactly.
Yeah.
And that's one, one of the wonderfulthings about our organization is that
our focus, you know, on choral musichas to do with sacred choral music.
So you know, the story is therein almost every piece we perform.
Nic talked about this.
You tell me your thoughts on this.
(37:59):
Why is this piece so universally.
Popular.
What is it about this piece?
Three things come to my mind and,uh, with the exception of the version
done by Mozart, which was in German.
Ron Klemm (38:13):
Oh, right.
I forgot about that.
That's right.
Dennis Sparger (38:15):
That, uh, which I've done a few times.
Interesting.
But not in German.
And because it's in English for onething, so the audience has an immediate
understanding of the words a second.
The texts are familiar, you know, ifyou've gone to church at all in your life.
You've heard many of thesewords before and it just all
registers in a very positive way.
(38:36):
And then finally.
This is great music, and I think thisis probably the principle reason for
why, and it's survived, for all ofthese years, these decades, these
centuries, uh, because it's great music.
There's a wonderful balance between,you know, these bold homophonic
statements, uh, that is everyonesinging the same words at the same
(38:58):
time, and then also the polyphony.
That is with one voice part chasingafter another part, and, uh, creating
such interest through all of this.
Uh, there's a contrast between chorus andsoloists and the use of the orchestra.
So there's always something goingon that kind of keeps us together.
Ron Klemm (39:49):
How many times have you performed this?
Some with a Bach societyand, and some before this.
And what does it mean to youpersonally to do a piece like this?
Dennis Sparger (39:58):
Well, Handel.
Performed it 36 times himself.
Is that right?
Yes.
And most after theages, you weren't there?
No, I wasn't there.
But, and most of this was at, uh,beyond the age of 60, uh, I've performed
a, a total of 12 times in, in mycareer, eight with a Bach society.
But only once have I performed theentire work in one, sitting in ones.
(40:20):
Well in two sittings.
That is, I did part one, sent the audiencehome for dinner for two hours, brought
them back and did parts two and three.
Ron Klemm (40:29):
Well, that's pretty trusting.
Dennis Sparger (40:30):
That was pretty trusting.
Yes.
But we lost a few, but,uh, but not too many.
Ron Klemm (40:35):
So what, what does it mean to you personally to do a piece like this?
Dennis Sparger (40:39):
Well, it, it's a part of my faith.
It's, uh, spirituallyso rewarding musically.
It's incredibly rewarding.
I think if this music were not soincredible in and of itself, uh, it
would not have lasted quite so long, butjust all of the elements come together.
To make it just, um, anastounding piece of music
Ron Klemm (41:01):
for this particular performance of parts two and three.
You've assembled four dynamicsoloists and as Nic was talking
about soloists in in Handels day and.
And his performances aroundthe country, although he uses
some of the same people we do.
Dennis Sparger (41:17):
Yes.
Yeah.
Ron Klemm (41:18):
It's such a critical role for the soloists.
Dennis Sparger (41:21):
Oh, indeed.
Uh, and they have, you know,some, some wonderful arias to
sing and a few ru along the way.
Uh, so it is important to have, you know,terrific soloists, uh, to communicate with
the audience because, uh, these peoplethat we bring in from across the country,
uh, they don't just stand and sing.
You can see in their faces, theyunderstand what they're singing about
(41:42):
and they express these words so clearlyfor audiences to be involved, you know,
uh, Nic was talking about Susanna Siber.
Who was the, uh, the Alto, uh.
Soloist in Handels early performances, andeven though she couldn't read music, that
she would express these words so well.
(42:02):
Audiences were moved totears by her performances.
Well, in our case, you know, we'rehaving a countertenor, you know, one of
our favorite singers, and I'm sure thatyou know that same effect will come.
You'll, you'll feel the pain, the agony.
Uh, as he sings.
Ron Klemm (42:18):
It's interesting that he brought that up because clearly that is
the focus is to communicate that text.
As you prepare in rehearsals with thechorus, what are the things that you.
Try to focus on, I assumethat's one of them.
Dennis Sparger (42:34):
Oh, about a hundred things at once?
Yeah.
Well, I'm aware of that, yes.
Um, at this moment in our preparation,we're working on articulations and
balance, uh, between the varioussections, uh, between bringing out.
Important themes along the wayas a shaping of small notes, you
know, sometimes even what we dowith an eighth note Oh, right.
(42:58):
To shape it just Right.
Yeah.
Well, especially a pickup.
Yes.
Oh, yes.
That's always a problem.
Yeah.
You're, you're a stickler forgetting the pickups and how, why do
composers give the pickup note low?
Followed by a high note.
Ron Klemm (43:09):
You know, the I'm not a very good critic about this.
You can't answer that.
Yes.
No, I can't, I, I can't answer that.
What, what is your goal whenpeople are leaving the hall,
how do you want them to feel?
Dennis Sparger (43:21):
I, I would wish that any person who's never heard
Messiah Live would give it a chance.
To be in the same room wherethe music is being made can be
such an overwhelming experience.
You can't get it even with thebest sound system in your home.
It's being there where it'shappening at that very moment.
(43:41):
And, you know, it'll neverhappen that way again.
So you're a part of a unique oncein a lifetime, uh, experience.
Ron Klemm (44:03):
We're listening to more samples from The Bach Society of St. Louis's
2023 Performance of Handel's Messiah.
I hope you've enjoyed ourtime today focusing on Handel
and his beloved Oratoria.
Thanks to Bach Society MusicDirector Dennis Sparger, of course,
and to our friend and esteemedguest conductor Nicholas McGegan
(44:36):
.I'm Ron Klemm.
Today's episode was edited by Ian Gilbert.
The Bach Society of St. Louis'srecording engineer is Paul Henrik.
Additional assistance provided asalways by Charissa Marciniak and
Andie Murphy of Right Relations.
(45:13):
Bach Talk is a registered trademarkof The Bach Society of Saint Louis.
This is Bach Talk.
Nicholas McGegan (00:15):
Unlike many of his works, it's words first, he
doesn't cover the words in beautifulflute solos, and only occasionally
in rejoice does he have what youmight call color a tour the fancy.
Vocal vocalist.
It's all about the words.
Ron Klemm (00:44):
He's talking about George Frederick Handel's text centric
approach in his beloved Orial Messiah.
And if anyone should know, it'sour esteemed guest again today.
The British born conductor andHandel specialist Nicholaus McGegan.
Nicholas McGegan (01:01):
In a secular space like the Cogo Theater.
Or Powell Hall, a concert hallis, the acoustics aren't so boomy,
so you can really hear the words.
Yeah.
Clarity.
Clarity and Handel, liked clarity.
Ron Klemm (01:30):
Hello and welcome to Bach Talk.
I'm Ron Klemm.
Last time we shared the first part ofan extended visit with Nicholas McGegan,
widely acknowledged as one of the finestconductors and baroque specialists of
our time, Bach Society, music directorand conductor, A. Dennis Sparger.
And I sat down for more than an hourwith the music director emeritus.
(01:54):
Of the San Francisco based PhilharmoniaBaroque Orchestra & Chorale.
We covered a variety of topics,including Nic's years here in
St. Louis, early in his career.
If you missed any of our previousconversation with Nic, be sure to
check out last month's episode ofBach Talk, living the Nic Life.
(02:15):
I think you'll find it engaging,enlightening, and downright delightful.
I know we did.
As you may recall, Dennis and I caughtup with Nic here in St. Louis while he
was in the middle of a December tour.
Guest conducting Handels best known workMessiah in several cities, and since
The Bach Society of Saint Louis willbe performing a major portion of this
(02:38):
oratorial at their concert in March.
We thought it particularlyappropriate to share that part
of our visit with you today.
Let's pick up the conversationwhere we left off The Bach Society
of St. Louis has performed, Handelsoratorial, Messiah many times, but
not as many times as you have Nic.
(03:00):
So, let's talk about perhaps themost popular oratorial of all
and what it means, the origins ofit, and this guy named Jennens.
Nicholas McGegan (03:15):
Well, we think of it as Handel's Messiah, but Charles Jennens
would've been extraordinarily grumpy'cause he thought it was his messiah.
And he's right because he'sthe one who had the idea.
Yeah.
He wrote the libretto or wrote, assembledthe libretto and sent it to Handel.
And he didn't like what Handel did either.
He, he thought the overture was awful,but said that Hannah was too lazy
(03:37):
or obstinate to change it for him.
Charles Jennens was a extremelyrich, single gentleman.
He owned, I think Iron Works, coalmines, all that sort of thing.
Never went down any of them.
Of course, he lived in an enormoushouse, which unfortunately was
(03:58):
pulled down in our lifetime.
Ron Klemm (03:59):
Is that right?
Nicholas McGegan (04:00):
Pulled down in the fifties it had been.
Used during the Second World Waras a military hospital and mm-hmm.
Place, and they was effectively trashed,the gardens are still there and the temple
to Handel the ruins of it is still there.
And it was huge.
He had a huge house in Londontoo, which was pulled down in
the 19th century and it's now agreat Ormond Street Hospital site.
(04:22):
And he was a very, very strange manindeed, because he had a somewhat.
Kooky religious belief that EnglishChurch of England Protestants
were the only true religiousdescendants of Old Testament jewelry.
Everybody else had messed it upwith paintings and idols and things.
(04:45):
So that was his thing.
That, and, uh, if you want to, there'sa terrific book by a friend of mine
called Michael Marissen called TaintedGlory, which shows just right went
through Jennens library, which if wedon't actually have the book, we know
what it was, to see what he was reading.
And it's pretty awful stuff.
(05:05):
So when it says, you know,thou shalt break them, it meant
anybody who disagreed with me.
Ron Klemm (05:11):
Hallelujah.
Yes.
You'll be surprised to know perhaps thatDennis and I spent an hour with Michael
Marissen on this very Bach Talk podcast.
He's a fascinating guy.
Nicholas McGegan (05:22):
And so you should, because he spent some
time at Washington Union.
Ron Klemm (05:25):
Yes, he did.
And you were there at the same time?
Nicholas McGegan (05:27):
I was there at the same time.
And he's a fantastic scholar.
Ron Klemm (05:29):
Now back to this Jennens Handel collaboration.
Maybe that's too strong a word.
Nicholas McGegan (05:34):
I think it is, yes.
Ron Klemm (05:34):
Really?
Okay.
Why?
Nicholas McGegan (05:36):
I think 'cause Jennens was a tremendous snob.
And he thought that Handelshould simply write.
I think Handel was treated byJennens rather, like some British
Duke would treat his French chef.
You know, he couldn't do ithimself and he knew what he wanted.
But, and he felt if it wasn't quiteup to what he wanted or didn't.
(06:00):
You won't cook this, you won't cook thisVenice in the way I like it kind of thing.
He would, he would say so.
But he was Handel's, on the otherhand, he was Handel's biggest
fan of the stuff that he loved.
Which was a lot of the operas.
And an enormous collection of Handels.
Music is now in Manchester.
In England in and not just Handelone of the things that's, well,
(06:23):
two things that survive there.
One, are what's known as the VivaldiManchester Sonatas, which are violin
sonatas that survive nowhere else.
And the other thing that survive,which is quite extraordinary, is in
the winter, in Vivaldi seasons, thereis a cello part in the SLO movement.
Which goes your,
and that was a single page inthe printed scores, which has
(06:45):
fallen out of everybody's copiesexcept Jennens ones in Manchester.
And so now it's beenput back thanks to him.
Ron Klemm (06:52):
How about that?
Nicholas McGegan (06:53):
And he had a, he had an organ, which Handel helped
say what he wanted, what stops hewanted, how and Handel oversaw the.
Um, the construction ofit, and it still exists.
It's in great Packington churchin the Midlands in England, and so
you can actually, it still has the,the big bellow, the, the hand-blown
(07:14):
bellows if you want to use them.
Yeah.
They've got the big the big sort ofwheelbarrow things on the side and, uh.
He had a lovely music room and,but, and, uh, he worked on, this
is not his first rodeo with Handel.
He worked with Saul, which is a, alibretto that Jan did actually write.
And it's, it's like allJennensnensnens's stuff.
It's extremely well constructed.
Ron Klemm (07:37):
Now we're talking about the Oratorial, Solemn.
Nicholas McGegan (07:39):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
So the acts all flow together beautifully.
He then did Allegro, which is I think thefinest of these, which he took two poems.
One about people being very jollyor overly jolly, and the other about
being overly academic and glum.
They're two separate poems by John Milton.
He sort of sandwiched themtogether like a layer cake.
So what the jolly one is then.
(08:00):
Juxtaposed with a serious one.
And then he wrote a third partwhere the poet is less successful
because he wrote it rather thanMilton, uh, basically looking very
Buddhist, looking for the middle way.
Oh, not too jolly and not too glum.
Then there's Messiah, and finallyis Bel Shaza, which also has an
incredibly well put together libretto.
So things.
There's a drama that Jennens got.
(08:23):
Which he gets, and I think one of thefinest things of all is the second act
of second part, I should say, of Messiah.
That the way it goes frombehold the Lamb of God to
hallelujah and how it gets there.
Mm-hmm.
It is just gripping that it, itdoes, you get contrast, but things
build up to the great chorus.
Mm-hmm.
(08:43):
And to cut it, which we allhave to do a bit now Yeah.
Is kind of a shame.
'cause it, it takes a bit out of it.
But the whole thing isextremely well put together.
And that's, and Jennens chosethe words, he had two choices.
The King James Bible.
But also the Book of Common Prayer, whichis actually older, it's 16th century
as opposed to 17th century English.
And he would.
Got, he found the one that was mostcomprehensible if it was going to be sung,
(09:06):
the one that had the easiest grammar.
Mm-hmm.
And that's a very skillful thing to do.
Ron Klemm (09:10):
It is.
Yeah.
Oh, and just to find it and figure it out.
Nicholas McGegan (09:13):
Figure it out.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it, it is, its a very unusualpiece of Handel in the sense
it has no named characters.
Unlike, say the Matthew Passion,Jesus does not appear in the
second act of Messiah, right?
He's sung about, but he doesn'tactually the Virgin Mary doesn't
appear in part one, so it's, it'smore contemplative in that way, but
(09:34):
he managed to make drama out of itwithout having characters saying, hi,
my name is s Samson, or My name is Saul.
(10:18):
Now we are, I'm on a sort of Messiah tourright now, so I've got nearly five weeks
of it, and so I'm going from city to city.
Around the country had one week off forThanksgiving, but that was different.
But when I arrived in KansasCity, it was minus God knows what.
And now in St. Louis, so we are talkingin December and I didn't need a coat.
Ron Klemm (10:41):
Yes.
We should be hitting 50 today.
Nicholas McGegan (10:43):
It's gonna, it's going to sink as always.
Ron Klemm (10:45):
Well, speaking of Messiah, you, you've conducted many major
works, you know, like Messiah, dozens,perhaps even hundreds of times.
How do you keep it fresh?
Nicholas McGegan (10:54):
It's kept fresh for me because I'm always
doing it with different people.
Uh, I've got four different performancesnow this particular Christmas, and
in every single one, at least one, ifnot two of the soloists are different.
So the soloist that I had in Milwaukeethree weeks ago is in St. Louis.
(11:17):
The Metso, I should say thecontralto I had in Kansas City,
but she wasn't in Milwaukee.
We have a French Canadianbase here in St. Louis.
It's there's, and theydo their own things.
Mm-hmm.
I encourage them if they're going toornament that they do their own Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Thing.
And of course it's adifferent symphony every time.
Some I know.
Like St. Louis.
I first, I first did my very firstcomplete Messiah was with the Saint
(11:41):
Louis Symphony in 1986.
So that's, I wondered about that.
Yes.
That's 39 years ago.
Lorraine Hunt Lisson was the soprano then.
Ron Klemm (11:47):
Oh God.
Bless your soul.
Nicholas McGegan (11:48):
And so it was a very, that was, they did it complete in those
days with doing it slightly snipped.
But sometimes a symphony will say, nowwe had an enormous Messiah last year.
Can we have a more baroque one this year?
So rather than have a chorus of150, could we have a chorus of 60?
So that again affects how you do it.
Yeah.
Sometimes it's the other way around.
(12:09):
You also get, well we had acounter 10 of last year, so can
you have a lady alto this year?
Mm-hmm.
Things that just keep it.
Not keeping fresh for me,but keeping for the audience.
You would make sure, for example,that you didn't have the same tenor
two years in a row in the same place.
So I have a, a sort of little coterieof singers that I worked with.
(12:32):
Ah, I thought so.
Yes.
And some of whom you know verywell too, that we use as well.
Yes.
And so, I know what.
Ornaments they're going to do, butthey might change them, of course.
Oh yeah.
And so, I know what, say the rejoicethat I did last week was a little
bit slower than the one I'm doing it.
And.
If, since I believe that glory toGod, which is the movement that comes
(12:52):
before, followed by rejoice, shouldbasically be at the same speed.
Mm-hmm.
If we have a slightly slowerrejoice, then I have to do a
slightly slower glory to God.
Yeah.
Uh, where the trumpets are called,Handel calls them for them to be Ana,
which means from a distance away.
Mm-hmm.
Uhhuh.
Now, last week in Kansas City, theyhave an organ at the back of the stage.
They were up in the Organ Galleryreally with the pipes, so they were
(13:14):
actually even higher than the angels.
That possibility doesn'texist in Powell Hall?
No.
They have to open the main stagedoor so that they're definitely
grounded trumpet, angels.
I've had them in a balconywith the audience before.
Mm-hmm.
Um, do they move places in the,in the course of the No, they,
they stay right where they are.
It's the only thing they playin part one, so they can.
(13:35):
Stay where they are.
Stay where they are.
And of course, if they're not seen,they don't even have to put their
black clothes or their tails on course.
They could do it in, they could doit in their gym jams for all I care.
So it, it does make a huge difference.
Yeah.
And the halls make a difference.
Yes.
Yeah, of course.
Now, of course, I'm about to get toPowell Hall in a few hours and I've not
been to the, the newly renovated, I'veonly seen pictures, so I can't wait.
Ron Klemm (13:57):
You're going to love it.
Nicholas McGegan (13:58):
I'm told that I won't notice much difference on stage.
'Cause that's pretty, though they'vepolished the floor ones, it'll
be a bit more resonant, but, butI'll certainly notice backstage.
And I'll try to go out into theauditorium where I'll certainly
notice a big difference.
Mm-hmm.
So, uh, and then Kansas Citylast week, it's a wonderful
new hall, the Kaufman Center.
It's absolutely fantastic.
(14:19):
And it's an opera house and,a concert hall in the same
building, which is marvelous.
And I was in Milwaukeea couple of weeks ago.
That is like Powell Hall, arenovated movie house, right?
Mm-hmm.
And they've done a similar thing.
They've encased it in a modernbuilding, which has cafes, the
dressing rooms, rehearsal rooms,the library and everything.
(14:41):
But you go in in it, and you are in, youthink that Lillian G is about to come in?
Tiffany chandeliers.
The whole thing.
It's very, it is way overthe top and murals beautiful,
painted murals everywhere.
Acoustically, it's wonderful.
Yes.
So very different.
This uh, and I always have this verystrange thing that the concert hall in
Pittsburgh is by the, exactly the samearchitect who did Powell Hall here.
(15:06):
That's correct.
It's a low, it's aLowe's theater, I think.
So all the decorations and thecolors are exactly the same.
Hmm.
And so it's just made to fit theslightly different building site.
Mm-hmm.
And I get, I say, which 1:00 AM I in?
Well, yeah.
Wow.
Make sure you're not hung overwhen you go in there the next day.
Where am I?
What sitting am I in?
It is exactly, you'd be happy tofind that your dressing room is
on the same level as the stage.
Ron Klemm (15:27):
So you don't have to worry about an elevator which, that may
Nicholas McGegan (15:30):
The sixth floor.
Yes.
Yes.
Which has stuck in PowellHall many times, I'm sure.
Including I'm during a livebroadcast that I was doing,
you were on the seventhfloor, weren't you?
Yes.
Yes.
I'd go up to that, yes.
And then if there had been, you'd haveto go down that rickety staircase.
Ron Klemm (15:43):
That's right.
I was.
(16:37):
A short portion of the so-calledangel sequence from George
Frederick Handel's Oratorio Messiah.
The Phil Harmonia Baroque was conducted byNicholas McGegan , and speaking of angels.
The soprano who was heard therebriefly was the late great
Lorraine Hunt Lisson, who died ofbreast cancer at the age of 52.
(16:59):
Earlier in that segment, we also hearda portion of Behold the Lamb of God from
the B Society's performance of 2023.
More from Dr. Spargers and myconversation with conductor
Nicholas McGegan straight ahead.
And later I'll ask Dennis to giveus some of his personal observations
(17:23):
on presenting this magnificent work.
You are listening to Bach talk.
We are talking about something thatwas written for the theater, and I
don't wanna make assumptions on this,but most people's association with
Messiah has nothing to do with thetheater and more to do with the church.
(17:44):
So let's talk about that.
Why is that good or bad?
Nicholas McGegan (17:48):
First of all, it was first performed there in
what was called the music Hall.
And one of the reasons that Handelwent to Dublin is he was invited by
the Duke of Aventure, who was the Lordlieutenant to a. Basically do the first
concert series in a new music building.
But it was a secular music building.
It's not a church.
He had the option he didn't, in the end ofdoing it at one of the two cathedrals St.
(18:11):
Patrick's and the other one,Christchurch, I think it is.
But, uh, the Dean of St.Patrick's wouldn't have it.
He was Jonathan Swift, whowrote Gull of His Travels Oh.
About that.
He said, I don't want any ofthese foreign fiddlers around.
Uh, but he was allowed, heeventually allowed the choir to
sing because it was a charity show.
When he got back to London, he did itin Covent Garden, and he always did
(18:34):
it in Covent Garden when he could.
First of all, there were no concerthalls big enough to take the audience.
And we'll come to when it was done later,but, the Bishop of London tried to ban it
'cause he didn't like the idea of ItalianCatholic women singing the word of God.
Oh, my, uh, tradition of the, the,the Lord, the Bishop of London
has traditionally been a prudein the 18th century and they
(18:56):
got a real doozy for that one.
It's one of the things that is great isthat in a secular space like the Covent
Garden Theater or Powell Hall, a concerthall is, the acoustics aren't so boomy.
So you can really hear the words.
Clarity.
Clarity.
And Handel liked clarity.
He's an opera.
(19:16):
Mm-hmm.
He's using, a lot of the time he'susing opera singers to sing in Messiah.
Some of them are Italian sinceSina or Senior Alio was the
soprano at least some of the time.
Uh, GU, the big Castrato, who then.
Look later wrote AEO for Oh, wasthe chap for whom he was despised?
(19:36):
No, it was, but who may abide?
Oh, it was written for, the originalversion of that is for bass.
But Ani came along.
Mm-hmm.
Bach.
Bach office gold gives him the best thingto ing and writes him new thing to sing.
The the tennis weregenerally English and the.
The Metso contralto in Dublinand whenever possible later was
(19:59):
Susanna Sba, who was the equivalentof someone like Glenn Close.
She was the most famous actressof her day with David Garrick,
and she specialized in tragedy.
Aha.
And she lived a. I wouldn't say now, butas those days a scandalous life, uh oh.
(20:20):
But we would not think it particularly.
She couldn't read music butshe was incredibly musical.
Her brother was Thomas awho wrote Wil Britannia.
Sure.
And she married Theophilus sba, whowas an actor of no great talent and
under British law in those days.
He was entitled, any Man Was entitledto all of his wife's income and he spent
(20:45):
her money from her being a successfulactress on booze gambling and birds.
And she said no.
So he's, would you believe, sued her foradultery, which is what he was doing.
Ron Klemm (21:02):
Oh my goodness.
Nicholas McGegan (21:02):
And so you go to Dublin.
Ron Klemm (21:05):
History is stranger than fiction, isn't it?
Nicholas McGegan (21:06):
Yes.
You go to Dublin, more or less inthe same way as you nowadays, perhaps
go to Las Vegas to get away fromit all and, and Handel, therefore,
wrote for her he was despised.
Yes.
And at the first performance.
The Dean, Dean Delaney mm-hmm.
Stood up and said, Madam, for allthis, made thy sins be forgiven.
(21:27):
Yes.
The completely Baltimore,she could make anybody cry.
How about that?
And I would love to have heard, to sing.
There's a wonderful book about her calledThe Provoked Wife, which she surely was.
And it's a very good read.
But he just had these great singersand he had a, if you look at his
score, it's fantastic because he writesthe names of every single singer.
(21:48):
Mm-hmm.
Sometimes does like 10names over one aria.
And sometimes he'd rewriteit for a particular person.
He transpose it for somebody, buthe's always writing for specific
singers when he needed to.
The tenor was John Bed, who'sthe heroic tenor, and he had sung
for Handel pretty much as a boy.
As a boy.
Soprano grew up to be a tenor in opera,and then he ended up in management.
(22:09):
So it definitely, churchesis, the churches are the
unusual place for it to be.
Mm-hmm.
Until we get to the foundling hospital,which is the charity that had Handel.
That is the orphan main orphanageof London, which was founded by a
sea captain called Thomas Corrum.
And it was built it.
The site is still there.
It's just north of the British Museum.
(22:30):
Ahuh and bits of it is still there.
The gates I think, are still there.
Unfortunately, the chapel waspulled down in the 1920s, which
is where Handel actually did it?
I've got photographs of it, but you do,I wish they reconstructed and that, and
Handel's music that his own set of parts.
Which is known as the founding hospitalset that he gave are still there.
(22:51):
And the other person who was very muchpart of it was the painter, William
Hogarth, who gave paintings there.
So you've got Handel's Music and thesewonderful 18th century paintings,
including one of Thomas Corrum to mentionanother book for your reading pleasure.
It's called Every Valleyand it's by Charles King.
And it's simply the.
It came out this year, last year.
(23:12):
He is a journalist, not amusician, but a music lover.
And it's about Handel, Charles Jennes,Thomas Corrum, and several other
people and their, how their lives allintertwined and unlike Musicologists,
with a very few exceptions, hewrites beautifully and clearly, but
it's a wonderful, wonderful book.
(23:33):
How fascinating.
Charles King, everybody.
Ron Klemm (24:13):
I gotta say something very personal.
The texts in Messiah speak very deeply tome because of who I am, what I believe.
That isn't always the case for people.
What is your goal?
What is your responsibilitywhen you perform Messiah?
(24:35):
Don't think about that at all.
Don't think about me or someonelike me or how do you approach it?
Nicholas McGegan (24:43):
I think Handel does the first part of what I believe.
Beautifully and very carefully, andthat is that unlike many of his works,
it's words, first, he doesn't coverthe words in beautiful flute solos, and
only occasionally in rejoice does hehave what you might call color rhetoric.
(25:05):
The fancy vocal.
Mm-hmm.
Vocal is it's all about thewords communicating the text.
Text.
And that's why.
Uh, I have a chorus rehearsal coming up.
I should be working very hardon the text to make sure that
the s are rolled, for example.
Things like that.
That seems to, I mean,it was a wonderful thing.
(25:25):
I think his name was Lord MountEdgecomb who said to Handel after
a performance, thank you, Mr.
Handel, for your entertainment.
And Handel said, I wasn't tryingto entertain you, my Lord.
I was trying to make you better.
Ron Klemm (25:37):
Yes.
Well, isn't that what music should be?
Nicholas McGegan (25:39):
And I don't mean necessarily religiously better.
I mean, just to make, to upliftyou, to make you think about
our condition on this earth.
To realize if you wish to take,to wish you take option of it.
Eternal life.
We conduct this, of coursewe know where we are going.
We have a nice place reserv thisdownstairs, but I don't think that's true.
But uh, as long as you sing, you go up.
(26:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I think it's, it's, it is it's also.
Though Jans would disagree with this,it is pleasingly, non-sectarian.
It doesn't say you have tobelieve in transubstantiation.
Yeah.
Or the gnarly bits.
Yes.
Of whatever it is.
It's not got some of the, theAnglo-Catholic or Roman Catholic
(26:22):
stuff, nor does it have the deepdown groveling, sort of more Baptist
type of, and worse kind of stuff.
It's just right there in the middle.
Yeah.
So it's asking you to say, this iswhat the Bible said would happen.
This is what happened, andthis is why we believe it.
Yeah.
Without getting into the weeds.
(26:43):
And I think that's a veryimportant thing for everybody.
But it's also, I think, perfectly possibleto take it as a non-religious experience
as you can the Matthew passionate.
Mm-hmm.
It can equally well be aboutthe sufferings of a man.
What happened to him afterwardsis a different story, but.
Whatever happened to Christ inthe passions is horrible and to.
(27:05):
And then people come in and say whatthey think about it, uh, or that
they'd like to join or whatever.
But the Messiah basicallysays, this is what's predicted.
And this is how he suffered andthis is what happened afterwards.
And if we are, if we don't do terriblynaughty things, we might take part in it.
Uh, and that's, that's hopefor all mankind, basically.
(27:26):
And that's a good thing.
But it doesn't take, say thatyou have to go to purgatory for a
thousand years or, have a ChantryChapel built in the local cathedral.
It's just separate from all of that,and I find therefore it has a much
more universal message, which I find isenormously appealing as it should be.
(27:47):
It's lovely to have it atChristmas, but of course that's
not where Handel intended it to be.
Ron Klemm (27:51):
I was going to ask you that because The Bach Society of St. Louis
performs it with greater frequency, eitherduring Lent or in the Easter season.
Nicholas McGegan (28:00):
Handel in the late 1730s was very nearly bankrupt.
He was also quite ill.
It's possible he had a stroke.
He also had a carriage accident, andat some point, one of his hands, he
couldn't write with one of his hands,just gave up, couldn't play really,
and he slowly started to get better.
And then he thought, no, London.
Great.
(28:20):
They're doing opera except inthe 40 days before Easter, when.
Even the Church of Englandsaid, no theater, no opera.
Mm-hmm.
But what have you got?
You've got a lot of people who are notsupposed to have their beef steaks.
You've got an orchestra that's unemployed.
You've got a lot of unemployed singers.
Yeah.
A theater that's dark basically.
(28:40):
Not doing very chopping atthe bit to do something.
Yeah.
So if we do a sacred oratorial, oreven a nons, sacred orator, like semi.
It's okay.
So this is called business opportunity?
Yes.
And he found it and he went from beingalmost bankrupt to being worth over 20,000
pounds when he died, which is severalmillion right now, because basically
(29:00):
from the oratorio he also did them inEnglish, or mostly in English because.
Occasionally it'd slip in an Italian ariaor the singer's Italian was so strong
you couldn't understand the English.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, there were parodies of that, but so,but he got the opera stars who everyone
(29:21):
wanted to see singing rejoice or whatever.
Yes.
And got to hear that he was able touse the choirs of Westminster IES
at Bulls Cathedral because there isno music during Lent except hymns.
No fancy mots and thingsso they could rehearse.
And, uh, he also managed to getan a, a town audience rather
(29:42):
than a aristocratic audience.
And also, not Messiah particularly,but for a lot of the Old Testament
oratories, there's a fairly large Jewishpopulation, some of whom were moneyed and.
Came to support the OldTestament Oratories.
Mm-hmm.
What there's, even just after Handel'sdeath, a singer called Michael Leon.
(30:02):
Michael Lyon, who sangtenor except on the Sabbath.
He was Maya Lion and was the cantor ofthe Duke Street Synagogue, but he sang
at Common Gone the rest of the time.
So he'd go between the Oratoriasinging opera and the synagogue.
Yeah.
And John Bram, who was the one alittle bit later and uh, sort of ran
(30:23):
the turn, ran the Napoleonic period.
Bram is short for Abraham.
Right.
And, uh, he was Jewish obviously.
How about that?
His girlfriend, uh oh.
Was Nancy Doris the first?
Susanna?
And they had a child who ended up asan English Church of England Vicar.
So, so you've got, you've covered prettymuch all the bases, everything covered.
(30:44):
But he even sang for Mendelssohnand he was just supposedly the
greatest owner of that period.
So there, so they werereligiously pretty flexible too.
And there is Mendelssohn, whowas obviously of a Jewish family,
but brought up as a Lutheran.
So they were kind of, theywere pretty free and easy.
Mm-hmm.
And that's why a lot ofthem ended up in Britain.
(31:05):
'cause we didn't care as much.
Ron Klemm (31:48):
Soprano, Michelle Kennedy, together with The Bach Society of St.
Louis Orchestra, conducted by DennisBarker and a brief portion of, I
know that my redeemer liveth from apresentation of Handels Messiah in 2023.
We also heard an excerpt of SinceBy Man Came Death earlier in this
segment from that same performance.
(32:10):
Plus tenor Jeffrey Thomas andthe Phil Harmonia Baroque, led by
Nicholas McGegan . In a samplingof every valley shall be exalted.
That recording of Messiah, by the way,is one of more than a hundred albums
in Nic's discography, including morethan 50, featuring the music of Handel.
(32:32):
This one was recorded in 1991, and whenI blew the dust off the case and opened
the CD booklet, there was Nic's autograph,along with a brief encouraging message to
a young classical music radio announcer.
I had forgotten that he had signed it,but now I will treasure it even more.
(32:53):
I hope you enjoyed our conversationwith Conductor Nicholas McGegan
today, as well as last month.
If you did, please let us know.
You can contact us at bachsociety.org.
Just click on Bach Talk underthe watch and listen tab.
Just ahead a footnote on today'sconversation, plus Dennis's
(33:15):
personal thoughts as The BachSociety of St. Louis prepares for
its next presentation of Handel's.
Messiah, in a few weeks, youare listening to Bach talk.
(33:56):
I'm here with Bach Society Music Directorand conductor Dennis Sparger, and what a
thrill it was to have a chance to chat.
With someone who is so familiarwith this amazing piece.
Dennis Sparger (34:09):
It's a rare opportunity, isn't it?
Ron Klemm (34:10):
It really is, and the thing that I loved about it was with all
this great detail that he would giveus, you could also recognize he had
a personal connection with the music.
What, what impressed you the mostabout our conversation with Nic?
Dennis Sparger (34:26):
Well, well, his extensive experience.
You know, he's done it.
I guess just hundreds of times.
And, uh, you know, from each time heconducts it, he learns something more.
This is something, you know, I think weall discover, but he's had, you know,
so many chances to do this again andagain, and learning from each, each time.
Ron Klemm (34:43):
You asked him a fascinating question about,
uh, how do you keep it fresh?
Yes.
Yeah.
And what, and what did he say?
He said.
He doesn't have to worry about that.
Dennis Sparger (34:52):
Yes.
Yeah.
The music does it for him.
Exactly.
And you know, having new soloists,having a new orchestra, this just
brings up new options for him.
Ron Klemm (35:02):
In the 21st century it is difficult do to do a work like Messiah,
even though people know and loveMessiah, it's difficult to do the entire
work simply because of the length.
We're no longer usedto that type of thing.
Oh, that's true.
But you decided.
In your infinite wisdom and experienceto, to just do the parts that
(35:25):
relate to the season of the year.
And lo and behold, that'swhen Handel did it.
Yes.
Yes.
So tell me about that decision.
Dennis Sparger (35:33):
Well, it, it just seemed to make sense to give the audience
something that they, to make a pun,but they could Handel that, uh, because
if you're sitting for, you know, likethree hours, three and a quarter hours.
In a church pew that gets a little.
Tiring.
Yeah.
Just physically you know, in a,in a concert hall with comfortable
(35:53):
seats, it's, I think it's,it's quite possible to do that.
Uh, but we perform largely inchurches and we want the audience to
still have some degree of freshnessby the time we get to the amen.
Ron Klemm (36:06):
Yeah.
As Nic pointed out, Handelput text first and didn't, and
didn't always worry about that.
He was more about musicalornamentation and everything else.
Oh, and he gets all of thatstuff out of the way for this.
So the text is absolutely vital.
It's, is that how you approach it?
Dennis Sparger (36:22):
It's, it certainly drives the whole piece, right?
Doesn't it?
It does.
And while, while Messiah is not anarrative that is, it does not tell a
story with characters, uh, there is amovement forward in the selection of
the scriptures, uh, to take us from theprophecy all the way, through the passion
(36:42):
of Christ and, uh, the resurrection.
And finally with our thanksgiving andpraise at the end, that makes it all work.
So there is like a driving force.
With the words and the words are setto music so carefully that you can hear
them, you can understand what's going on.
Right, right.
Ron Klemm (37:00):
And of course, they're in English and no subtitles necessary.
The fact that, as you said, it's nota narrative, but in a sense, we're
picking up the story in the middle.
Yes.
Yeah.
Tell me about that.
Dennis Sparger (37:10):
Well, you know, there are, you know, certain
steps that are taking place.
You know, that arestarting with a passion.
So we're able to, uh, to, to follow,you know, the struggle the agony,
the, uh, the torture, the crucifixion,uh, and finally the resurrection.
So we get all of this, youknow, through part two.
Ron Klemm (37:29):
And then of course, part three, as you said, yes.
Is all about Thanksgiving.
Yes.
And eternal life.
The Bach Society of St. Louissings a lot about eternal life.
Dennis Sparger (37:39):
Exactly.
Yeah.
And that's one, one of the wonderfulthings about our organization is that
our focus, you know, on choral musichas to do with sacred choral music.
So you know, the story is therein almost every piece we perform.
Nic talked about this.
You tell me your thoughts on this.
(37:59):
Why is this piece so universally.
Popular.
What is it about this piece?
Three things come to my mind and,uh, with the exception of the version
done by Mozart, which was in German.
Ron Klemm (38:13):
Oh, right.
I forgot about that.
That's right.
Dennis Sparger (38:15):
That, uh, which I've done a few times.
Interesting.
But not in German.
And because it's in English for onething, so the audience has an immediate
understanding of the words a second.
The texts are familiar, you know, ifyou've gone to church at all in your life.
You've heard many of thesewords before and it just all
registers in a very positive way.
(38:36):
And then finally.
This is great music, and I think thisis probably the principle reason for
why, and it's survived, for all ofthese years, these decades, these
centuries, uh, because it's great music.
There's a wonderful balance between,you know, these bold homophonic
statements, uh, that is everyonesinging the same words at the same
(38:58):
time, and then also the polyphony.
That is with one voice part chasingafter another part, and, uh, creating
such interest through all of this.
Uh, there's a contrast between chorus andsoloists and the use of the orchestra.
So there's always something goingon that kind of keeps us together.
Ron Klemm (39:49):
How many times have you performed this?
Some with a Bach societyand, and some before this.
And what does it mean to youpersonally to do a piece like this?
Dennis Sparger (39:58):
Well, Handel.
Performed it 36 times himself.
Is that right?
Yes.
And most after theages, you weren't there?
No, I wasn't there.
But, and most of this was at, uh,beyond the age of 60, uh, I've performed
a, a total of 12 times in, in mycareer, eight with a Bach society.
But only once have I performed theentire work in one, sitting in ones.
(40:20):
Well in two sittings.
That is, I did part one, sent the audiencehome for dinner for two hours, brought
them back and did parts two and three.
Ron Klemm (40:29):
Well, that's pretty trusting.
Dennis Sparger (40:30):
That was pretty trusting.
Yes.
But we lost a few, but,uh, but not too many.
Ron Klemm (40:35):
So what, what does it mean to you personally to do a piece like this?
Dennis Sparger (40:39):
Well, it, it's a part of my faith.
It's, uh, spirituallyso rewarding musically.
It's incredibly rewarding.
I think if this music were not soincredible in and of itself, uh, it
would not have lasted quite so long, butjust all of the elements come together.
To make it just, um, anastounding piece of music
Ron Klemm (41:01):
for this particular performance of parts two and three.
You've assembled four dynamicsoloists and as Nic was talking
about soloists in in Handels day and.
And his performances aroundthe country, although he uses
some of the same people we do.
Dennis Sparger (41:17):
Yes.
Yeah.
Ron Klemm (41:18):
It's such a critical role for the soloists.
Dennis Sparger (41:21):
Oh, indeed.
Uh, and they have, you know,some, some wonderful arias to
sing and a few ru along the way.
Uh, so it is important to have, you know,terrific soloists, uh, to communicate with
the audience because, uh, these peoplethat we bring in from across the country,
uh, they don't just stand and sing.
You can see in their faces, theyunderstand what they're singing about
(41:42):
and they express these words so clearlyfor audiences to be involved, you know,
uh, Nic was talking about Susanna Siber.
Who was the, uh, the Alto, uh.
Soloist in Handels early performances, andeven though she couldn't read music, that
she would express these words so well.
(42:02):
Audiences were moved totears by her performances.
Well, in our case, you know, we'rehaving a countertenor, you know, one of
our favorite singers, and I'm sure thatyou know that same effect will come.
You'll, you'll feel the pain, the agony.
Uh, as he sings.
Ron Klemm (42:18):
It's interesting that he brought that up because clearly that is
the focus is to communicate that text.
As you prepare in rehearsals with thechorus, what are the things that you.
Try to focus on, I assumethat's one of them.
Dennis Sparger (42:34):
Oh, about a hundred things at once?
Yeah.
Well, I'm aware of that, yes.
Um, at this moment in our preparation,we're working on articulations and
balance, uh, between the varioussections, uh, between bringing out.
Important themes along the wayas a shaping of small notes, you
know, sometimes even what we dowith an eighth note Oh, right.
(42:58):
To shape it just Right.
Yeah.
Well, especially a pickup.
Yes.
Oh, yes.
That's always a problem.
Yeah.
You're, you're a stickler forgetting the pickups and how, why do
composers give the pickup note low?
Followed by a high note.
Ron Klemm (43:09):
You know, the I'm not a very good critic about this.
You can't answer that.
Yes.
No, I can't, I, I can't answer that.
What, what is your goal whenpeople are leaving the hall,
how do you want them to feel?
Dennis Sparger (43:21):
I, I would wish that any person who's never heard
Messiah Live would give it a chance.
To be in the same room wherethe music is being made can be
such an overwhelming experience.
You can't get it even with thebest sound system in your home.
It's being there where it'shappening at that very moment.
(43:41):
And, you know, it'll neverhappen that way again.
So you're a part of a unique oncein a lifetime, uh, experience.
Ron Klemm (44:03):
We're listening to more samples from The Bach Society of St. Louis's
2023 Performance of Handel's Messiah.
I hope you've enjoyed ourtime today focusing on Handel
and his beloved Oratoria.
Thanks to Bach Society MusicDirector Dennis Sparger, of course,
and to our friend and esteemedguest conductor Nicholas McGegan
(44:36):
.I'm Ron Klemm.
Today's episode was edited by Ian Gilbert.
The Bach Society of St. Louis'srecording engineer is Paul Henrik.
Additional assistance provided asalways by Charissa Marciniak and
Andie Murphy of Right Relations.
(45:13):
Bach Talk is a registered trademarkof The Bach Society of Saint Louis.
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