June 16, 2026 • 31 mins
The San Diego Master Chorale knows how to bring people together. They understand that a group of human voices singing together is one of the few things capable of uniting completely different people in perfect harmony.
In our season three finale of Bach Talk, we're sharing a conversation recorded live at the 2025 Chorus America Conference. The Bach Society of Saint Louis’ Danielle Feinstein and Scott MacDonald sat down with Executive Director Jen Rogers and Music Director John K. Russell to talk about building community through song. Jen and John share the secret sauce behind the 130-voice ensemble’s recent massive growth and the day-to-day realities of running an arts organization. Tune in for a great conversation about the benefits of music-making and why we should all be singing a little more.
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(00:00):
This is Bach Talk.
(00:20):
There's something really beautifulabout a singer's relationship with
music-making that is really, special
(00:47):
and unique.
The choral field in general, we allhave to be doing more to get more people
singing because it really is like oneof the few things that brings lots of
different kinds of people together,whether you're on stage singing or
you're in the audience listening.
And it's the most important messageI think that we can be spreading.
That's Jen Rogers, Executive Directorof the San Diego Master Chorale.
(01:12):
We're hearing their voices in theopening introit from a setting of
the Requiem by Maurice Duruflé.
It's a true choral masterwork.
The San Diego Master Choralefocuses a lot on great masterworks.
Since 1961, that's right, for morethan 65 years, the chorale has
(01:33):
presented inspiring and exhilaratingperformances throughout the San Diego
County area in Southern California.
Featuring 130 of the region'sfinest singers, the chorale performs
classical masterworks as well asnew music by contemporary composers
and diverse works, as well.
(01:54):
More about that in a moment.
Hello, and welcome to Bach Talk.
I'm Ron Klemm.
Last summer, St. Louis welcomed theannual conference of Chorus America.
The memories are still fresh.
The Bach Society of St. Louiswas one of the conference hosts,
and the Bach Talk team was busy.
(02:15):
We talked to more than a dozenleaders in the choral music world.
Included on that list, Music DirectorJohn K. Russell and Executive Director Jen
Rogers of the San Diego Master Chorale.
Let's return to the lobby of the HyattRegency at the Arch and listen in.
Jen Rogers and John Russell ofthe San Diego Master Chorale.
(02:39):
Hi, guys.
Hello.
Hi.
Thanks for having us.
Thank you for being here.
let's just kick this off with if you wannatalk a little bit about the San Diego
Master Chorale, who you are, what you do.
San Diego Master Chorale's, we'reheaded into our 65th year of existence.
we're a symphonic-sized chorus of around130 singers, musicians from San Diego.
(03:03):
We present four concerts per season, withour not all 130 voices, but many of them.
and we do those in and aroundvarious parts of San Diego.
So we try to cover the county as best wecan because we don't have necessarily a
home venue, so we're performing in thebest acoustical spaces we can find from
(03:27):
around- North County, Downtown, La Jolla,Encinitas, different parts of, San Diego.
The repertoire ranges everywhere fromclassical, canonical works of, of choral
masterwork, examples like Mozart Requiemto, Broadway tunes, opera choruses.
(03:49):
It's a, variety of music, and our,the size of the chorus tends to vary
depending on the venue, depending on therepertoire, depending on the time of year.
We have an annual Messiah Singthat we do where we invite
members of the community in.
I know that's a popular, eventthat lots of choruses do.
We find it really successful.
It's really, we sellout that really quickly.
(04:12):
The unique part of our singis that we, put our choral
singers in amongst the audience.
So I'm up front withsoloists from the chorus.
Our associate music directoris the organist, and he,
accompanies the, Messiah.
But the choruses are sung by thegathered audience members with the
San Diego Master Chorale voicesmixed in, which is, that's a special
(04:35):
way to, to do that kind of event.
So it's always inspiring to me that timeof year when all of a sudden everyone
shows up not just to hear choralmusic, but to actually sing themselves.
We do our own season, as I mentioned,in, which includes the Messiah Sing
and our other concert programs.
And we also partner with, occasionally,with San Diego Symphony Orchestra.
We appear on their concert programs.
(04:56):
We've collaborated with otherregional orchestras in San Diego.
We also have frequentlyperformed with a summer chamber
festival, called Mainly Mozart.
When they do a choral program, they'llhire the Master Chorale to sing.
So we're kind of everywhere, and that'swhat, that's, and that's why the singers
love to be in the in the choir 'causewe just … we're in as many places as
(05:19):
we can possibly be singing choral music.
So with 130 singers?
Yeah.
Is that what you said?
Yeah.
What's the breakdown of…iseveryone professional?
We have a mixture of paidprofessional singers and volunteers.
Majority are volunteers.
I think we have about 30 singers onour roster that we are, staff singers,
so they, they've been trained vocallyat some, somehow along the way in that
(05:42):
they are able to supplement their…someof them are freelancers, some of them
are, have full-time jobs doing otherthings, too, but they're able to
supplement that by singing with us, too.
John, you're also a, the directorof choral and vocal studies at
That's right.
Palomar College.
So do you guys do any, collaboration?
One of the programs we've offeredin the past has been a high school
(06:02):
honor choir where we bring instudents from high schools around the
county for a day workshop and shortconcert with the Master Chorale.
But each year we did that, I would bringmy, chamber singers from the college would
come and serve as like the section leader.
I would teach them themusic a- ahead of time.
So they would be, they would be withthe high school students all day, and
(06:25):
the Master Chorale would come in theafternoon, and then we'd do a concert,
a collaborative concert together.
So it, it was just a way to tiein just these multi-generations
of experience in singing.
literally showcasing the lifelong effectthat singing can have on people's lives.
That's one way Palomar's been involved.
We…I have some alums who sing, whoaudition and sing with the Master Chorale
(06:50):
and we, do a, summer program at Palomar,it's a choral academy mostly focused
on middle school or high school-agesingers, come to campus for a week, and
we sing together, learn vocal technique.
We've had some Master Choralesingers join us for that, too,
so we overlap whenever possible.
What is the classical operavocal scene like in San Diego?
(07:14):
We're one of 40, 50 choruses.
it's, it, there's a lot ofopportunity for singing in San Diego.
I think we're one of the few choirsthat can really do large symphonic
works really well, and also we cantrim down to a chorus of 24 and
do small chamber concerts also.
(07:34):
I think we have that flexibility, andwe have a flexibility of repertoire
that's diverse that I'm, proud of,and I think the singers are proud
of, and I think that's one of thereasons why they like to sing with us.
There's a lot of opportunity in San Diego,I think, for what we're doing, and we have
a shared vision of where we would like totake building bridges of bringing people
together in, very accessible, environmentswhere people can come together and
(08:00):
sing, is something that we're reallyinterested in and think that San Diego's
a great place to try to build that.
It's really a wonderful time to be inthe San Diego performing arts, not just
choral music, but music in general.
Have a new music director of thesymphony who's only been around maybe
six years, bringing new life and energyand repertoire to that organization.
(08:22):
A phenomenal chamber music societyin La Jolla, the La Jolla Music
Society, who's presenting theworld's best art song, jazz, dance.
You name it, they're bringing theseartists into San Diego, and their Summer
Fest is also a wonderful celebration ofchamber music, curated by…and these
(08:43):
are all new faces, at least in the lastfive to seven years, to the community.
So it's a wonderfultime to be in San Diego.
And we also have a really wonderful earlymusic group, San Diego Bach Collegium.
So we've mentioned Bachon The Bach Podcast.
I'd like to just make surewe've checked that box.
But Ruth Valenzuela founded thatorganization, and it's really
(09:07):
one of the best performing artsorganizations in the county.
They really do fine work, and theybring a lot of performers from outside
of San Diego, high-level early musicmusicians to perform for our audiences,
and it's great for the community.
So it's a great time to be makingthis kind of music in, San Diego.
Does the Master Choraledo a lot of early music?
(09:30):
We don't.
We have.
We can.
We can, we can and I … It's somethingthat I enjoy, and I have sung a lot of,
but probably have conducted less of withthe Master Chorale than other repertoire.
Do you have a preferred orfavorite period, you know-
For me personally?
Renaissance, any of that?
Yeah.
Yeah, probably Renaissance and earlymusic up, up to I've sung a lot of Bach
(09:54):
cantatas as a chorister or soloist,and it's some of my favorite music.
Some of the most complicated music,and it's so, Bach's music that whether
you're singing it, conducting it,listening to it, the depth is there that
something new always appears every time.
So I'm not … I'm sure I'm the,only the millionth person to
(10:16):
ever say that, but it's true.
It sounds like you keep pretty busybetween teaching and conducting.
Are you still actively soloing?
Once in a while, yeah.
I did a few things this year.
When people in … When myfriends invite me, I say yes.
Invite-only, folks.
Yeah.
In my day job, I am often taken toSan Diego for the convention center.
(10:38):
And, during the summers in particular,I'm always feeling lucky when
there's a symphony concert or somesort of concert on the harbor?
Yeah.
The Shell.
The Shell.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you guys get to perform there?
We have.
We will.
Yeah, it's like when we, when theyfinally…the symphony performed outdoors
at that specific spot for years, andthey would build a temporary outdoor
(11:01):
space for their summer concerts.
And Master Chorale has sungwith them many times outside.
And then when finally the, when theyfinally built or started to build The
Shell, which is a permanent outdoorhome for the symphony, and it opened,
and you went out there, and you lookedaround, and you're like, "How has
this not been here forever?" Yeah.
(11:21):
Because you can stand on thestage of The Shell, and you
can see the Coronado Bridge.
It's an iconic bridge in San Diego.
You can see that.
You can see the bay.
You can see the convention center.
You can see Petco Park.
You can see all the hallmarks of whatmakes San Diego a great American city.
And it's this is wonderful and that venue,whether it's … Master Chorale sung
(11:44):
Verdi Requiem with the symphony there,but I've also heard pop music concerts
or solo jazz concerts and from theaudience, and it's just, it's wonderful.
It's a wonderful venue.
It has great acoustics.
It's really unique.
I mean-
It's unique, yeah.
We've done their NoelNoel program there.
We just went back inside thislast year, but we're gonna be
outside again back at The Shell.
(12:05):
And I don't think there are manyplaces where you can go for a Christmas
concert outside in December near thewater with helicopters flying over from
the Navy and then boats sailing by.
It's a very unique experience tobe outside for a Christmas program.
(12:26):
Yep.
Yeah, it's pretty fun.
You're bundled up.
It's all of 60 degrees outside.
Yeah, very chilly for San Diego.
Maybe 55.
So you're singing a lot of,what is it, Mele Kalikimaka?
That's a good one.
I'm taking that note.
We need to
(12:49):
do that.
The San Diego Master Chorale led bymusic director John K. Russell and just
a taste of the second movement fromLeonard Bernstein's Chichester Psalms.
What does it take for adult choirsto grow and expand in today's world?
We'll find out from the chorale'sexecutive director, Jen Rogers, who
(13:14):
lays out her role with the group.
The conversation continues from the 2025Chorus America Conference in St. Louis.
More of Danielle and Scott's chat with JenRogers and John Russell straight ahead.
This is Bach Talk.
(13:35):
Jen, do you wanna talk alittle bit about what you do?
So I'm the executive director.
I've been with the organizationsince November of '22.
I'm the first full-time executivedirector that the Master Chorale
has had in its 60-plus-year history.
And I was brought in toprofessionalize the administrative
side of the organization.
(13:56):
And so I've been working, reallyfocusing on building audience, building
our donor base, and building on theexisting and building new collaborations
and new, identifying some newopportunities for engagement programming.
Growing the organization, audienceattendance was up 75% last year,
and it's up over 40% this year.
(14:17):
So yeah.
We're growing.
We actually double, almost doubledthe number of concerts we did this
year because of the demand last year.
And you have a lot of experiencewith this previously working
with the Phoenix Chorale.
Is that right?
Yes.
Yes.
I was there for 13 anda half years on staff.
I, was the marketing director forseven and a half years, built that
(14:38):
brand and then became CEO, andwas CEO for five and a half years.
Wow.
Yeah.
What's your secret sauce?
Secret sauce is good marketing, whichI guess there's secret sauce to that.
It's making sure that themessage is clear and consistent.
And consistency is, there has to bea through line visually and with the
(15:03):
language, and also with the frequency.
And then the mix is really important.
We have just a very basic mix.
A postcard goes out, some good socialmedia, a mix of like promotional
stuff, but also some stuff that'sinteresting, maybe fun about the concert.
I would say-
… again, it's consistent
…she's, underselling her, herself a little bit.
(15:26):
And the timing is whatmakes things happen.
The secret sauce is all about her seeingahead as many steps as we try, as music
directors try to see ahead in eitherprogramming music or, learning scores
and planning how to rehearse the music.
It's the same for the schemes ofmarketing that, that she's developed.
(15:47):
It's consistency.
The people now know, in the historyof the Master Chorale, I don't think
that the patrons have ever been soinformed about what we're singing,
when we're singing it, where it is,how they can be there, how easy it is,
and then how easy it is to get there.
And then when they get to the concert,the experience they have that is
(16:08):
much more, just more consistent.
The expectation of what they're gonnasee even before they hear one note
of singing, what they're gonna see atthe box office, how they're gonna find
their seat, how to find the venue.
The concert program isbeautiful and informative and
in their hands immediately.
And it's consistent and that's somethingthat we tried to do before we had a
(16:30):
professional, helping us with this.
But it, when volunteers are incharge of things and some of those
volunteers are also singing inthe concert and we're doing the
concert, so there's lots of hands.
But when it, when there's one personwho has this kind of experience and the
skill, planning it and executing it, andfinding the right staff to help make that
(16:52):
happen, it changes the whole dynamic.
So there's just more people hearing thechoir and knowing about the choir than,
ever, which is, that's, what we want.
We're trying to get our mission, ourmessage of the importance of vocal
music to as many people as possible,yes, in San Diego, but even my
parents who live in Michigan, theyknow exactly when the concert is.
(17:12):
They know, they see a concerttrailer, they see correspondents
after the concert, so they're able tofollow along as if they're in town.
Say that for, those of you listeningwho may not be as familiar with the
chorus universe, it is the holy grailfor an adult choir to have a full-time
artistic director and a full-timeexecutive director and getting to that
(17:35):
spot is a major goal for many of theorganizations who come to Chorus America.
I wanted to ask about how the MasterChorale was able to get there, to get
to the point of being able to hireJen and go from a team of volunteers
to having a full-time, obviously adynamo of a, of an executive director
(17:57):
who was able to make this all happen.
It's two, two big things that happened.
One is an individual donor, that wasa longtime board member that saw the
need who could help, who could helpindividually financially contribute, but
also was tenacious, especially during thepandemic, at going after grant dollars and
(18:24):
other ways of income that would supportthe kind of administrative need we had.
And I think without her…it's…hercontribution financially is key, but
also her elbow grease and just, nonstop,going after going after grants and some
specific grants that really helped fundthis position initially by the Conrad
(18:44):
Prebys Foundation in San Diego made a bigdifference in being able to say, "Okay."
I think after…you've met…You'vesaid a lot of choirs want this.
They wanna have an executiveand artistic leadership
established, and it's hard to do.
And we went for a long time withhaving a music director position
(19:06):
filled but not an executive directorfilled and knowing we needed it.
And it's a chicken-and-eggchase all the time.
How are we gonna raise the money?
We'll raise the money if we hirethe person, but we can't hire the
person until we have the funds.
So it's finally someone who hadthe, the tenacity and the wealth to
kinda help us do both at the sametime, and it's really paid off.
And I, imagine that it's, no secret thatin many choir organizations and arts and
(19:31):
nonprofit organizations in general, thatpeople feel uncomfortable asking for
money or trying to aggressively courtthose big-dollar donations and the types
of, types of giving, especially fromindividuals, that really are needed for
a choir to not only survive but to grow.
What I would say to organizations in-like ours who are in need of executive
(19:57):
leadership and don't have it yet, it'simportant to just cultivate relationships
and be kind and keep people… younever know who's gonna step up.
And I'm, and I'm looking back andthinking, I just all of the things
that fell into place for us to geta handful of people to give at the
right time, at the right level.
(20:17):
These are people that I did not,that I personally didn't know, had
the capacity to give at that level.
But we kept them involved in theorganization, and they loved the
choir, and we wanted their help.
We didn't realize they had thecapacity to give, but they did.
So it's just be nice to people.
It, I think that's my lesson.
It's like you never know who'sgonna arrive and help you when you
(20:41):
need it and, and we learned thatlesson, and we're grateful for it.
Yeah, I would just say about, onthe fundraising side, I feel like
the most important thing you can dois to just understand what people
care about and then try to matchthem to an opportunity that they're
gonna get excited about supporting.
So you're not really asking them, you'rejust saying, "Here's this thing I think
(21:04):
you're gonna love, and we want it tohappen. We think you're gonna want
it to happen. Can you help us make ithappen?" So it's, that fundraising is, I
don't know, 5 to 10% in actually asking,and the other 95% is the relationship,
the fostering the relationship.
So it's been fun being in San Diegoand having this fresh start and
(21:27):
getting to know the people in thecommunity and the singers are very
supportive, and they're really investedin what we do and where we're headed.
And they've all…we justdid a crowdfunding campaign.
It just ended on Sunday, and we raisedalmost $60,000, and they led it.
So yeah, it's pretty, it's prettycool when you have a group that's,
(21:50):
they're, this whole organizationwas ready, was just ready.
We have had a professional chemistryfrom the very first conversation we
had when I was thinking about applying,and it's just great to have a colleague
that, you're just…he's also not justa great conductor and a great singer and
great musician, he's also an educator.
(22:12):
And having the educational mindsetis not something I've really
had in an artistic director.
So when we're looking at ways to tryto build more opportunities for people
to sing in San Diego, he's all for it.
Some of the crazy ideas that arecoming up, and we're like, "How can
we do this? Is there a way that wecan make this happen?" And so I feel
like we're on the verge of, launchingsome really exciting programs.
(22:56):
More music from "Lux Aeterna” byMorton Lauridsen, The San Diego Master
Chorale, conducted by John Russell.
Just ahead, our DanielleFeinstein and Scott MacDonald
conclude their conversation withJen Rogers and John Russell.
It took place at the 2025 Conferenceof Chorus America in St. Louis.
(23:19):
This is Bach Talk.
You spoke a little bitabout John's background.
I'm curious about your background.
Do you have a background in music?
I, yeah, my husband saysI'm a reformed saxophonist.
So that's how I identify.
Yeah, I trained as asaxophonist in college, and
(23:41):
jazz was really my first love.
I went to NAU
which many people in the choral world knowhas a fantastic choral music department.
And, the instrumentalists were absolutelysequestered from the vocalists and I had
done most of my ear training and stuffat community college, so by the time
(24:03):
I got to NAU, I didn't actually haveto interact with many of the singers.
And so I had no idea that the Shrine ofthe Ages Choir even existed until I was
working for the Phoenix Chorale, and Ilived in Arizona for almost 30 years.
I came to that much later.
So I definitely started in choralmusic really as a fan, when I heard
(24:23):
the Phoenix Chorale, 20, almost20 years ago, which is crazy.
I didn't know a choir could do that, andwas, just really started out as a fan,
and then that started me on this path.
And so I've been in, it's crazy, I'vebeen in the choral fields for a long time.
But I love it.
There's a, there's somethingreally beautiful about singers'
(24:47):
relationship with music-makingthat is really special and unique.
And then through that, for you to becomea choral music or a music patron later in
life is that you've, you have participatedin singing or making music at some point.
That seed needs to be planted, notjust because I'm thinking, "Oh, who
(25:09):
are future patRons gonna be?" But it'sreally, going back to the emotional,
mental health, the physical health thatcomes from singing and just the, we were
talking about the dopamine that comesfrom that and, lowering your cortisol.
Like, all, the, things that comefrom the, benefits that come from
listening to music or making music.
(25:30):
And we, I feel like the choral field ingeneral, it's a place that we've been
holding for a long time, and I think weall have to be doing more to get more
people singing because it really is,one of the few things that brings lots
of different kinds of people together,whether you're on stage singing or
you're in the audience listening.
And it's the most important message,I think, that we can be spreading.
(25:55):
And regardless of your abilities, too.
Diversity of ability,diversity of age, all of that.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Totally different direction,but I'm super curious about it.
What I read in your bio about being a tourmanager for Tonality on Björk's 2022 tour.
Yeah.
That's so cool.
Can you tell me more about that?
That was, yeah, that was really fun.
(26:16):
So I'm on the advisory board of Tonality,and Tonality is a professional choir
in LA, led by Alexander Blake, andwe met at Chorus America a number
of years ago, and I just became abig fan of his and championing…
Yeah, every- we allmeet at Chorus America.
And so just had been helping him overthe years with different things, and he
(26:40):
called me up, and he's "Yeah, so we, wegot this call to- To do this thing with
Björk, and I was like, "I'm sorry, excuseme?" And he said, "Yeah, Björk needs a
choir for these shows that she's doing."
And so he was like, "What…" So wewere, like, working up the budget.
What do we need to… What's,would the fee… Can we do
it for the fee they offered?
So I'm just helping him, and I said, ifyou get the gig, if we get this gig, I
(27:04):
would love to be the tour manager, andI'll just, you pay my expenses, and I'll
just come and do it because, it's Björk."
And he was amenable, and also he did notreally know who Björk was, which if you
know Alexander Blake, that would track.
Love him, but he's not always dialedinto that stuff and so I said, "Alex,
(27:28):
Björk is proof that fairies exist."And I said, "And when you meet her,
you will understand what that means."
And, anyway, so this was in likeOctober, and the tour was in January.
One other funny thing I'll just share.
This is during COVID.
Everybody's doing testing.
Everybody gets through.
No, everybody's negative.
We get inside.
(27:48):
I go to the, where folks are checking in.
I've brought the, gotthe choir to their room.
This is at The Shrine in LA.
And, they're like, "Oh yeah, so just go tothe…" I don't remember what room it was.
"Go there, and they'll fit you for yourheadset." And I'm like, "I'm sorry,
headset?" They're like, "Yeah, you'regonna…you're calling the choir.
You're calling the choir for the show."
(28:09):
And I'm like, "Oh, yes, of course. Yes,I'm doing that." So I had to call the
choir and cue the choir for the fiveshows that we did, and it was…the
most amazing thing was just standingon the side of the stage and watching
the whole thing unfold and gettingto see her and watching all of it.
The artistry was insane.
She's a goddess.
(28:30):
It was mind-blowingly good.
The choir sounded amazing, butit was one of the most stressful
things I've ever done in my life.
Live productions, everyone.
It's a circus.
Yeah.
Thank you both so much.
I am here with Jen Rogers, the executivedirector, and John Russell, the artistic
director of the San Diego Master Chorale.
We are here at Chorus America 2025.
(28:52):
I am Danielle Feinstein with ScottMacDonald, and this is Bach Talk.
The Bach Society Orchestraplaying us out today.
I hope you enjoyed Scott and Danielle'sconversation at the 2025 annual
(29:15):
conference of Chorus America here inSt. Louis with the San Diego Master
Chorale's music director John Russelland executive director Jen Rogers.
Do you enjoy hearing aboutother choral ensembles besides
The Bach Society of St. Louis?
Let us know.
Take a moment right now and contactus with your question or comment.
(29:38):
Just go to bachsociety.org, click on BachTalk under the watch and listen tab, and
you'll find a simple form that you can useto ask your question or leave a comment.
If you'd rather interact more, just sendus an email, bachtalk@bachsociety.org.
We look forward to hearing from you.
(30:03):
Today we conclude ourthird season of Bach Talk.
We had no idea what to expect when webegan, but lo and behold, here we are,
a major podcast in the universe ofJohann Sebastian Bach, of the choral
arts, and music performance in general.
Our goal has always been to lift thecurtain of mystery and make Bach and
(30:27):
choral music meaningful and accessiblethrough conversations with people
who make it happen, who breathelife into this transformative music.
Your encouragement and supporthave made it possible, and
our gratitude is unending.
Our team is tops, too, and ajoy to be around and work with.
(30:50):
Special thanks today to Bach Talk'sScott MacDonald and Danielle Feinstein.
Musical excerpts provided bythe San Diego Master Chorale.
Technical assistance from Ian Gilbert.
Promotional and other assistanceprovided, as always, by Charissa Marciniak
and Andie Murphy of Right Relations.
(31:10):
I'm Ron Klemm.
Bach Talk is a registered trademarkof The Bach Society of Saint Louis.
This is Bach Talk.
(00:20):
There's something really beautifulabout a singer's relationship with
music-making that is really, special
(00:47):
and unique.
The choral field in general, we allhave to be doing more to get more people
singing because it really is like oneof the few things that brings lots of
different kinds of people together,whether you're on stage singing or
you're in the audience listening.
And it's the most important messageI think that we can be spreading.
That's Jen Rogers, Executive Directorof the San Diego Master Chorale.
(01:12):
We're hearing their voices in theopening introit from a setting of
the Requiem by Maurice Duruflé.
It's a true choral masterwork.
The San Diego Master Choralefocuses a lot on great masterworks.
Since 1961, that's right, for morethan 65 years, the chorale has
(01:33):
presented inspiring and exhilaratingperformances throughout the San Diego
County area in Southern California.
Featuring 130 of the region'sfinest singers, the chorale performs
classical masterworks as well asnew music by contemporary composers
and diverse works, as well.
(01:54):
More about that in a moment.
Hello, and welcome to Bach Talk.
I'm Ron Klemm.
Last summer, St. Louis welcomed theannual conference of Chorus America.
The memories are still fresh.
The Bach Society of St. Louiswas one of the conference hosts,
and the Bach Talk team was busy.
(02:15):
We talked to more than a dozenleaders in the choral music world.
Included on that list, Music DirectorJohn K. Russell and Executive Director Jen
Rogers of the San Diego Master Chorale.
Let's return to the lobby of the HyattRegency at the Arch and listen in.
Jen Rogers and John Russell ofthe San Diego Master Chorale.
(02:39):
Hi, guys.
Hello.
Hi.
Thanks for having us.
Thank you for being here.
let's just kick this off with if you wannatalk a little bit about the San Diego
Master Chorale, who you are, what you do.
San Diego Master Chorale's, we'reheaded into our 65th year of existence.
we're a symphonic-sized chorus of around130 singers, musicians from San Diego.
(03:03):
We present four concerts per season, withour not all 130 voices, but many of them.
and we do those in and aroundvarious parts of San Diego.
So we try to cover the county as best wecan because we don't have necessarily a
home venue, so we're performing in thebest acoustical spaces we can find from
(03:27):
around- North County, Downtown, La Jolla,Encinitas, different parts of, San Diego.
The repertoire ranges everywhere fromclassical, canonical works of, of choral
masterwork, examples like Mozart Requiemto, Broadway tunes, opera choruses.
(03:49):
It's a, variety of music, and our,the size of the chorus tends to vary
depending on the venue, depending on therepertoire, depending on the time of year.
We have an annual Messiah Singthat we do where we invite
members of the community in.
I know that's a popular, eventthat lots of choruses do.
We find it really successful.
It's really, we sellout that really quickly.
(04:12):
The unique part of our singis that we, put our choral
singers in amongst the audience.
So I'm up front withsoloists from the chorus.
Our associate music directoris the organist, and he,
accompanies the, Messiah.
But the choruses are sung by thegathered audience members with the
San Diego Master Chorale voicesmixed in, which is, that's a special
(04:35):
way to, to do that kind of event.
So it's always inspiring to me that timeof year when all of a sudden everyone
shows up not just to hear choralmusic, but to actually sing themselves.
We do our own season, as I mentioned,in, which includes the Messiah Sing
and our other concert programs.
And we also partner with, occasionally,with San Diego Symphony Orchestra.
We appear on their concert programs.
(04:56):
We've collaborated with otherregional orchestras in San Diego.
We also have frequentlyperformed with a summer chamber
festival, called Mainly Mozart.
When they do a choral program, they'llhire the Master Chorale to sing.
So we're kind of everywhere, and that'swhat, that's, and that's why the singers
love to be in the in the choir 'causewe just … we're in as many places as
(05:19):
we can possibly be singing choral music.
So with 130 singers?
Yeah.
Is that what you said?
Yeah.
What's the breakdown of…iseveryone professional?
We have a mixture of paidprofessional singers and volunteers.
Majority are volunteers.
I think we have about 30 singers onour roster that we are, staff singers,
so they, they've been trained vocallyat some, somehow along the way in that
(05:42):
they are able to supplement their…someof them are freelancers, some of them
are, have full-time jobs doing otherthings, too, but they're able to
supplement that by singing with us, too.
John, you're also a, the directorof choral and vocal studies at
That's right.
Palomar College.
So do you guys do any, collaboration?
One of the programs we've offeredin the past has been a high school
(06:02):
honor choir where we bring instudents from high schools around the
county for a day workshop and shortconcert with the Master Chorale.
But each year we did that, I would bringmy, chamber singers from the college would
come and serve as like the section leader.
I would teach them themusic a- ahead of time.
So they would be, they would be withthe high school students all day, and
(06:25):
the Master Chorale would come in theafternoon, and then we'd do a concert,
a collaborative concert together.
So it, it was just a way to tiein just these multi-generations
of experience in singing.
literally showcasing the lifelong effectthat singing can have on people's lives.
That's one way Palomar's been involved.
We…I have some alums who sing, whoaudition and sing with the Master Chorale
(06:50):
and we, do a, summer program at Palomar,it's a choral academy mostly focused
on middle school or high school-agesingers, come to campus for a week, and
we sing together, learn vocal technique.
We've had some Master Choralesingers join us for that, too,
so we overlap whenever possible.
What is the classical operavocal scene like in San Diego?
(07:14):
We're one of 40, 50 choruses.
it's, it, there's a lot ofopportunity for singing in San Diego.
I think we're one of the few choirsthat can really do large symphonic
works really well, and also we cantrim down to a chorus of 24 and
do small chamber concerts also.
(07:34):
I think we have that flexibility, andwe have a flexibility of repertoire
that's diverse that I'm, proud of,and I think the singers are proud
of, and I think that's one of thereasons why they like to sing with us.
There's a lot of opportunity in San Diego,I think, for what we're doing, and we have
a shared vision of where we would like totake building bridges of bringing people
together in, very accessible, environmentswhere people can come together and
(08:00):
sing, is something that we're reallyinterested in and think that San Diego's
a great place to try to build that.
It's really a wonderful time to be inthe San Diego performing arts, not just
choral music, but music in general.
Have a new music director of thesymphony who's only been around maybe
six years, bringing new life and energyand repertoire to that organization.
(08:22):
A phenomenal chamber music societyin La Jolla, the La Jolla Music
Society, who's presenting theworld's best art song, jazz, dance.
You name it, they're bringing theseartists into San Diego, and their Summer
Fest is also a wonderful celebration ofchamber music, curated by…and these
(08:43):
are all new faces, at least in the lastfive to seven years, to the community.
So it's a wonderfultime to be in San Diego.
And we also have a really wonderful earlymusic group, San Diego Bach Collegium.
So we've mentioned Bachon The Bach Podcast.
I'd like to just make surewe've checked that box.
But Ruth Valenzuela founded thatorganization, and it's really
(09:07):
one of the best performing artsorganizations in the county.
They really do fine work, and theybring a lot of performers from outside
of San Diego, high-level early musicmusicians to perform for our audiences,
and it's great for the community.
So it's a great time to be makingthis kind of music in, San Diego.
Does the Master Choraledo a lot of early music?
(09:30):
We don't.
We have.
We can.
We can, we can and I … It's somethingthat I enjoy, and I have sung a lot of,
but probably have conducted less of withthe Master Chorale than other repertoire.
Do you have a preferred orfavorite period, you know-
For me personally?
Renaissance, any of that?
Yeah.
Yeah, probably Renaissance and earlymusic up, up to I've sung a lot of Bach
(09:54):
cantatas as a chorister or soloist,and it's some of my favorite music.
Some of the most complicated music,and it's so, Bach's music that whether
you're singing it, conducting it,listening to it, the depth is there that
something new always appears every time.
So I'm not … I'm sure I'm the,only the millionth person to
(10:16):
ever say that, but it's true.
It sounds like you keep pretty busybetween teaching and conducting.
Are you still actively soloing?
Once in a while, yeah.
I did a few things this year.
When people in … When myfriends invite me, I say yes.
Invite-only, folks.
Yeah.
In my day job, I am often taken toSan Diego for the convention center.
(10:38):
And, during the summers in particular,I'm always feeling lucky when
there's a symphony concert or somesort of concert on the harbor?
Yeah.
The Shell.
The Shell.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you guys get to perform there?
We have.
We will.
Yeah, it's like when we, when theyfinally…the symphony performed outdoors
at that specific spot for years, andthey would build a temporary outdoor
(11:01):
space for their summer concerts.
And Master Chorale has sungwith them many times outside.
And then when finally the, when theyfinally built or started to build The
Shell, which is a permanent outdoorhome for the symphony, and it opened,
and you went out there, and you lookedaround, and you're like, "How has
this not been here forever?" Yeah.
(11:21):
Because you can stand on thestage of The Shell, and you
can see the Coronado Bridge.
It's an iconic bridge in San Diego.
You can see that.
You can see the bay.
You can see the convention center.
You can see Petco Park.
You can see all the hallmarks of whatmakes San Diego a great American city.
And it's this is wonderful and that venue,whether it's … Master Chorale sung
(11:44):
Verdi Requiem with the symphony there,but I've also heard pop music concerts
or solo jazz concerts and from theaudience, and it's just, it's wonderful.
It's a wonderful venue.
It has great acoustics.
It's really unique.
I mean-
It's unique, yeah.
We've done their NoelNoel program there.
We just went back inside thislast year, but we're gonna be
outside again back at The Shell.
(12:05):
And I don't think there are manyplaces where you can go for a Christmas
concert outside in December near thewater with helicopters flying over from
the Navy and then boats sailing by.
It's a very unique experience tobe outside for a Christmas program.
(12:26):
Yep.
Yeah, it's pretty fun.
You're bundled up.
It's all of 60 degrees outside.
Yeah, very chilly for San Diego.
Maybe 55.
So you're singing a lot of,what is it, Mele Kalikimaka?
That's a good one.
I'm taking that note.
We need to
(12:49):
do that.
The San Diego Master Chorale led bymusic director John K. Russell and just
a taste of the second movement fromLeonard Bernstein's Chichester Psalms.
What does it take for adult choirsto grow and expand in today's world?
We'll find out from the chorale'sexecutive director, Jen Rogers, who
(13:14):
lays out her role with the group.
The conversation continues from the 2025Chorus America Conference in St. Louis.
More of Danielle and Scott's chat with JenRogers and John Russell straight ahead.
This is Bach Talk.
(13:35):
Jen, do you wanna talk alittle bit about what you do?
So I'm the executive director.
I've been with the organizationsince November of '22.
I'm the first full-time executivedirector that the Master Chorale
has had in its 60-plus-year history.
And I was brought in toprofessionalize the administrative
side of the organization.
(13:56):
And so I've been working, reallyfocusing on building audience, building
our donor base, and building on theexisting and building new collaborations
and new, identifying some newopportunities for engagement programming.
Growing the organization, audienceattendance was up 75% last year,
and it's up over 40% this year.
(14:17):
So yeah.
We're growing.
We actually double, almost doubledthe number of concerts we did this
year because of the demand last year.
And you have a lot of experiencewith this previously working
with the Phoenix Chorale.
Is that right?
Yes.
Yes.
I was there for 13 anda half years on staff.
I, was the marketing director forseven and a half years, built that
(14:38):
brand and then became CEO, andwas CEO for five and a half years.
Wow.
Yeah.
What's your secret sauce?
Secret sauce is good marketing, whichI guess there's secret sauce to that.
It's making sure that themessage is clear and consistent.
And consistency is, there has to bea through line visually and with the
(15:03):
language, and also with the frequency.
And then the mix is really important.
We have just a very basic mix.
A postcard goes out, some good socialmedia, a mix of like promotional
stuff, but also some stuff that'sinteresting, maybe fun about the concert.
I would say-
… again, it's consistent
…she's, underselling her, herself a little bit.
(15:26):
And the timing is whatmakes things happen.
The secret sauce is all about her seeingahead as many steps as we try, as music
directors try to see ahead in eitherprogramming music or, learning scores
and planning how to rehearse the music.
It's the same for the schemes ofmarketing that, that she's developed.
(15:47):
It's consistency.
The people now know, in the historyof the Master Chorale, I don't think
that the patrons have ever been soinformed about what we're singing,
when we're singing it, where it is,how they can be there, how easy it is,
and then how easy it is to get there.
And then when they get to the concert,the experience they have that is
(16:08):
much more, just more consistent.
The expectation of what they're gonnasee even before they hear one note
of singing, what they're gonna see atthe box office, how they're gonna find
their seat, how to find the venue.
The concert program isbeautiful and informative and
in their hands immediately.
And it's consistent and that's somethingthat we tried to do before we had a
(16:30):
professional, helping us with this.
But it, when volunteers are incharge of things and some of those
volunteers are also singing inthe concert and we're doing the
concert, so there's lots of hands.
But when it, when there's one personwho has this kind of experience and the
skill, planning it and executing it, andfinding the right staff to help make that
(16:52):
happen, it changes the whole dynamic.
So there's just more people hearing thechoir and knowing about the choir than,
ever, which is, that's, what we want.
We're trying to get our mission, ourmessage of the importance of vocal
music to as many people as possible,yes, in San Diego, but even my
parents who live in Michigan, theyknow exactly when the concert is.
(17:12):
They know, they see a concerttrailer, they see correspondents
after the concert, so they're able tofollow along as if they're in town.
Say that for, those of you listeningwho may not be as familiar with the
chorus universe, it is the holy grailfor an adult choir to have a full-time
artistic director and a full-timeexecutive director and getting to that
(17:35):
spot is a major goal for many of theorganizations who come to Chorus America.
I wanted to ask about how the MasterChorale was able to get there, to get
to the point of being able to hireJen and go from a team of volunteers
to having a full-time, obviously adynamo of a, of an executive director
(17:57):
who was able to make this all happen.
It's two, two big things that happened.
One is an individual donor, that wasa longtime board member that saw the
need who could help, who could helpindividually financially contribute, but
also was tenacious, especially during thepandemic, at going after grant dollars and
(18:24):
other ways of income that would supportthe kind of administrative need we had.
And I think without her…it's…hercontribution financially is key, but
also her elbow grease and just, nonstop,going after going after grants and some
specific grants that really helped fundthis position initially by the Conrad
(18:44):
Prebys Foundation in San Diego made a bigdifference in being able to say, "Okay."
I think after…you've met…You'vesaid a lot of choirs want this.
They wanna have an executiveand artistic leadership
established, and it's hard to do.
And we went for a long time withhaving a music director position
(19:06):
filled but not an executive directorfilled and knowing we needed it.
And it's a chicken-and-eggchase all the time.
How are we gonna raise the money?
We'll raise the money if we hirethe person, but we can't hire the
person until we have the funds.
So it's finally someone who hadthe, the tenacity and the wealth to
kinda help us do both at the sametime, and it's really paid off.
And I, imagine that it's, no secret thatin many choir organizations and arts and
(19:31):
nonprofit organizations in general, thatpeople feel uncomfortable asking for
money or trying to aggressively courtthose big-dollar donations and the types
of, types of giving, especially fromindividuals, that really are needed for
a choir to not only survive but to grow.
What I would say to organizations in-like ours who are in need of executive
(19:57):
leadership and don't have it yet, it'simportant to just cultivate relationships
and be kind and keep people… younever know who's gonna step up.
And I'm, and I'm looking back andthinking, I just all of the things
that fell into place for us to geta handful of people to give at the
right time, at the right level.
(20:17):
These are people that I did not,that I personally didn't know, had
the capacity to give at that level.
But we kept them involved in theorganization, and they loved the
choir, and we wanted their help.
We didn't realize they had thecapacity to give, but they did.
So it's just be nice to people.
It, I think that's my lesson.
It's like you never know who'sgonna arrive and help you when you
(20:41):
need it and, and we learned thatlesson, and we're grateful for it.
Yeah, I would just say about, onthe fundraising side, I feel like
the most important thing you can dois to just understand what people
care about and then try to matchthem to an opportunity that they're
gonna get excited about supporting.
So you're not really asking them, you'rejust saying, "Here's this thing I think
(21:04):
you're gonna love, and we want it tohappen. We think you're gonna want
it to happen. Can you help us make ithappen?" So it's, that fundraising is, I
don't know, 5 to 10% in actually asking,and the other 95% is the relationship,
the fostering the relationship.
So it's been fun being in San Diegoand having this fresh start and
(21:27):
getting to know the people in thecommunity and the singers are very
supportive, and they're really investedin what we do and where we're headed.
And they've all…we justdid a crowdfunding campaign.
It just ended on Sunday, and we raisedalmost $60,000, and they led it.
So yeah, it's pretty, it's prettycool when you have a group that's,
(21:50):
they're, this whole organizationwas ready, was just ready.
We have had a professional chemistryfrom the very first conversation we
had when I was thinking about applying,and it's just great to have a colleague
that, you're just…he's also not justa great conductor and a great singer and
great musician, he's also an educator.
(22:12):
And having the educational mindsetis not something I've really
had in an artistic director.
So when we're looking at ways to tryto build more opportunities for people
to sing in San Diego, he's all for it.
Some of the crazy ideas that arecoming up, and we're like, "How can
we do this? Is there a way that wecan make this happen?" And so I feel
like we're on the verge of, launchingsome really exciting programs.
(22:56):
More music from "Lux Aeterna” byMorton Lauridsen, The San Diego Master
Chorale, conducted by John Russell.
Just ahead, our DanielleFeinstein and Scott MacDonald
conclude their conversation withJen Rogers and John Russell.
It took place at the 2025 Conferenceof Chorus America in St. Louis.
(23:19):
This is Bach Talk.
You spoke a little bitabout John's background.
I'm curious about your background.
Do you have a background in music?
I, yeah, my husband saysI'm a reformed saxophonist.
So that's how I identify.
Yeah, I trained as asaxophonist in college, and
(23:41):
jazz was really my first love.
I went to NAU
which many people in the choral world knowhas a fantastic choral music department.
And, the instrumentalists were absolutelysequestered from the vocalists and I had
done most of my ear training and stuffat community college, so by the time
(24:03):
I got to NAU, I didn't actually haveto interact with many of the singers.
And so I had no idea that the Shrine ofthe Ages Choir even existed until I was
working for the Phoenix Chorale, and Ilived in Arizona for almost 30 years.
I came to that much later.
So I definitely started in choralmusic really as a fan, when I heard
(24:23):
the Phoenix Chorale, 20, almost20 years ago, which is crazy.
I didn't know a choir could do that, andwas, just really started out as a fan,
and then that started me on this path.
And so I've been in, it's crazy, I'vebeen in the choral fields for a long time.
But I love it.
There's a, there's somethingreally beautiful about singers'
(24:47):
relationship with music-makingthat is really special and unique.
And then through that, for you to becomea choral music or a music patron later in
life is that you've, you have participatedin singing or making music at some point.
That seed needs to be planted, notjust because I'm thinking, "Oh, who
(25:09):
are future patRons gonna be?" But it'sreally, going back to the emotional,
mental health, the physical health thatcomes from singing and just the, we were
talking about the dopamine that comesfrom that and, lowering your cortisol.
Like, all, the, things that comefrom the, benefits that come from
listening to music or making music.
(25:30):
And we, I feel like the choral field ingeneral, it's a place that we've been
holding for a long time, and I think weall have to be doing more to get more
people singing because it really is,one of the few things that brings lots
of different kinds of people together,whether you're on stage singing or
you're in the audience listening.
And it's the most important message,I think, that we can be spreading.
(25:55):
And regardless of your abilities, too.
Diversity of ability,diversity of age, all of that.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Totally different direction,but I'm super curious about it.
What I read in your bio about being a tourmanager for Tonality on Björk's 2022 tour.
Yeah.
That's so cool.
Can you tell me more about that?
That was, yeah, that was really fun.
(26:16):
So I'm on the advisory board of Tonality,and Tonality is a professional choir
in LA, led by Alexander Blake, andwe met at Chorus America a number
of years ago, and I just became abig fan of his and championing…
Yeah, every- we allmeet at Chorus America.
And so just had been helping him overthe years with different things, and he
(26:40):
called me up, and he's "Yeah, so we, wegot this call to- To do this thing with
Björk, and I was like, "I'm sorry, excuseme?" And he said, "Yeah, Björk needs a
choir for these shows that she's doing."
And so he was like, "What…" So wewere, like, working up the budget.
What do we need to… What's,would the fee… Can we do
it for the fee they offered?
So I'm just helping him, and I said, ifyou get the gig, if we get this gig, I
(27:04):
would love to be the tour manager, andI'll just, you pay my expenses, and I'll
just come and do it because, it's Björk."
And he was amenable, and also he did notreally know who Björk was, which if you
know Alexander Blake, that would track.
Love him, but he's not always dialedinto that stuff and so I said, "Alex,
(27:28):
Björk is proof that fairies exist."And I said, "And when you meet her,
you will understand what that means."
And, anyway, so this was in likeOctober, and the tour was in January.
One other funny thing I'll just share.
This is during COVID.
Everybody's doing testing.
Everybody gets through.
No, everybody's negative.
We get inside.
(27:48):
I go to the, where folks are checking in.
I've brought the, gotthe choir to their room.
This is at The Shrine in LA.
And, they're like, "Oh yeah, so just go tothe…" I don't remember what room it was.
"Go there, and they'll fit you for yourheadset." And I'm like, "I'm sorry,
headset?" They're like, "Yeah, you'regonna…you're calling the choir.
You're calling the choir for the show."
(28:09):
And I'm like, "Oh, yes, of course. Yes,I'm doing that." So I had to call the
choir and cue the choir for the fiveshows that we did, and it was…the
most amazing thing was just standingon the side of the stage and watching
the whole thing unfold and gettingto see her and watching all of it.
The artistry was insane.
She's a goddess.
(28:30):
It was mind-blowingly good.
The choir sounded amazing, butit was one of the most stressful
things I've ever done in my life.
Live productions, everyone.
It's a circus.
Yeah.
Thank you both so much.
I am here with Jen Rogers, the executivedirector, and John Russell, the artistic
director of the San Diego Master Chorale.
We are here at Chorus America 2025.
(28:52):
I am Danielle Feinstein with ScottMacDonald, and this is Bach Talk.
The Bach Society Orchestraplaying us out today.
I hope you enjoyed Scott and Danielle'sconversation at the 2025 annual
(29:15):
conference of Chorus America here inSt. Louis with the San Diego Master
Chorale's music director John Russelland executive director Jen Rogers.
Do you enjoy hearing aboutother choral ensembles besides
The Bach Society of St. Louis?
Let us know.
Take a moment right now and contactus with your question or comment.
(29:38):
Just go to bachsociety.org, click on BachTalk under the watch and listen tab, and
you'll find a simple form that you can useto ask your question or leave a comment.
If you'd rather interact more, just sendus an email, bachtalk@bachsociety.org.
We look forward to hearing from you.
(30:03):
Today we conclude ourthird season of Bach Talk.
We had no idea what to expect when webegan, but lo and behold, here we are,
a major podcast in the universe ofJohann Sebastian Bach, of the choral
arts, and music performance in general.
Our goal has always been to lift thecurtain of mystery and make Bach and
(30:27):
choral music meaningful and accessiblethrough conversations with people
who make it happen, who breathelife into this transformative music.
Your encouragement and supporthave made it possible, and
our gratitude is unending.
Our team is tops, too, and ajoy to be around and work with.
(30:50):
Special thanks today to Bach Talk'sScott MacDonald and Danielle Feinstein.
Musical excerpts provided bythe San Diego Master Chorale.
Technical assistance from Ian Gilbert.
Promotional and other assistanceprovided, as always, by Charissa Marciniak
and Andie Murphy of Right Relations.
(31:10):
I'm Ron Klemm.
Bach Talk is a registered trademarkof The Bach Society of Saint Louis.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by Audiochuck Media Company.
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.