May 11, 2025 • 50 mins
WARNING FOR LISTENERS - This Episode contains Sensitive Topics
Matty and Cooper chat with former UK Special Forces soldier, Royal Marines Commando, and Royal Engineer Ant Middleton about Head game, climbing Everest, accountability, society today & mates like Sam Burgess.
Ant Middleton is back in Australia with The Trilogy Tour, his most powerful and transformative live experience yet.
Trilogy Tour has been rescheduled to the following dates:
Saturday 19th July 2025 - The Star Event Centre, Pyrmont NSW
Saturday 26th July 2025 - The Star Theatre, Gold Coast QLD
Visit Ticketek for tickets!
This episode includes discussions about sensitive topics such as trauma and mental health. Listener discretion is advised.
If you’re facing your own mental health challenges, please visit:
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0:00-Head Game
3:20-Mt. Everest
7:30-Ant's Service
10:30-Afghanistan
14:00-Accountability
18:00-Conscience
23:30-Africa
25:30-NATO
26:30-Sam Burgess
27:40-SAS TV Show
37:00-Judging Character
39:00-Society Today
43:30-Craig Bellamy
47:00-Mayor of London
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
If you're in my hot seat, that's what you want
to go in, little challenge. I don't want to be challenged, right, yeah, yeah,
he's doing his best.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Well, we don't have to worry about dad when.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
He was a kid. So what a you're do when
you grow up and you said, I'm going to take.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
All your joke all your jobs used to laugh and
jokes as well?
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Yeah yeah, well that really works.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
And now you're working together and love that. A team,
family unit, family team, that's what.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Well, if you can't trust your family, well who can
you trust?
Speaker 1 (00:35):
No one?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
No, no, apparently not. That's what that's what we live by.
So we are we're out of your studio here and
where you record your podcast? Head Game?
Speaker 1 (00:44):
That's right?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Yeah, yeah yeah, So run us through. What it's about.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
The head Game is just talking to ordinary people that
have extraordinary stories. So what I do is I tap
into their mindset on how they've overcome certain situations, the
mindset they utilized, and you know, whether that was fear panic,
whether they were facing a certain phobia. Because the people
that I interview are left with one option in life,
(01:08):
and it's almost like a do or die and sometimes
it is that serious they've got to make a decision
otherwise they're not going to make it through. But also
do or die with decisions about work, decisions about family.
You know, all these hard choices and how they got
through certain situations. So it's fascinating because everyone has a
(01:29):
story yet has well.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I imagine sports people and military people. You know that's
your strength, like that's they're the probably people you relate
to most. Who's surprised you of the guests you've had on.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Do you know what? I've had all sorts of guests,
And this is where Nova's so good at just you know,
hand picking these these individuals because I like to really
not do too much homework. I like to just take
them at face value, really tap into their story. And
I might have have certain questions for example, and then
I've asked none of them users like you've asked none
(02:02):
of these questions. But what a hell of a podcast
because we just go off on a tangrum and I
just really feel where they're going and try and extract
their story of raw emotions. So I've had I've had
people that have had their faces ripped off by by
bears in Canada. I've had people stuck in minds, you
know that where the oxygen's diminishing and they're slowly dying,
(02:26):
but they're having to really dig deep psychologically and put
on certain emotions, whether that's family, whether that's loved ones,
whether that's just the sheer will to survive. And what
I love about my podcast is these people are left
with one option, you know, and when you're left with
one option in life, you'll be amazed at what you
can achieve, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Isn't when you look at things like you know, and
we always liking it. Sport, it's people say, you know,
when you go into professional sport, you've got to do
one thing. You're going to make sure. You've got to
plan V. Well, sometimes you want to make it. Don't
have a plan B. That's all or.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Nothing, matty, You are bang on there. And it's the
same in the military. As long as there's a plan,
there's a there's a way through. You know, a lot
of people are so risk adverse nowadays. What they want
they want to plan, they want they want the solution,
the option, and then they want to plan a, B, C,
D and E around it, and they go right, as
long as you've got three or four plans around it,
(03:24):
then we can execute what needs to be done.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
No, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Is there an option? Is there one option forward?
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Here?
Speaker 1 (03:30):
If there is, go for it.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Well we've had an amazing life. But more recently, you
just got back from Everest base camp as well. Because
the big fella here, Matthew, mate, he's he doesn't like
toot his own hole and he's very humble, but he
went to I do Yeah, he went to base camp
as well with a few of his ex teammates.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Yeah, well we did actually to what happened, and we
did it, and then we went and celebrated after we
hit it. And then a guy come to the come
to the tea house and said, listen, there's one further
up color Batan, why don't you do then? This one's
not too hard, And me and my old captain we
went and did it. I got to say it. I've
got so much respect for you your military guys, because
(04:10):
I remember doing it. Get un in the morning, just filling,
that's sick in the stomach, and I'm walking up and
I'm saying to my old captain Chief, I said, I'm exhausted,
I'm sick in the stomach, I'm deteriorating quickly. Can imagine
being in war. We're in carbull and there might be
someone hiding in a cave and everything. It's just like
(04:31):
it shows the mental tough and of you guys.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Do you know what Matti just to do? Every space
camp is no easy feat. People think that it's at
the base of a mountain. It's three hundred meters on
the way to Mount Everest, which sits just below nine
thousand meters, so you're more than halfway up Mount Everest.
It's higher than most of the seven summits. So just
(04:56):
to get there with the lack of oxygen that you know,
and the lack of knowledge. And I always say to
my to my clients, because I took ten clients recently
up to every space camp, Listen to your body. Be aware.
The altitude will pinch you in the ass at a
certain time that you won't expect it. Your emotions will
(05:16):
be everywhere. You feel like you can't breathe, you start
to panic and fear will kick in, and that's when
you know that you need to really really listen to
your body. It's no easy feet makes the hats off
to you and the isummated Mount Everest actually to the
top in twenty eighteen, so you under the top. Yeah,
I went to the top in twenty and eighteen, and
then I just took ten clients on a sort of
(05:39):
VIP expedition to every space company.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Yeah, when you've been to the top, how like when
you do base camp? I imagine, do you not feel
like the a climate, like the lack of oxygen since
you've been to the top, is your like white blood
cells that you must have not really felt anything going
to base camp then or No.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
You always have to acclimatize. Once you're a way from
from the mountains, let's call it, once you've sort of
come down from the mountains, there's probably a two to
three week period that you were acclimatized. So say I
came down from Mount Iris and I wanted to go
and jump on let's see the fourth biggest mountain in
the world or the fifth you know lots say for example,
which is I think it's it's at eight at eight three,
(06:23):
I will be acclimatized to go and do that. However,
if I'm away from the mountains for two three weeks
and I have to reacclimatize so I have to go
back into the process of making sure that I take
my time, making sure that you know that I'm well
fed and well nourished, because the high you get, the
lack of oxygen sort of suppresses your hunger. It suppresses
you know, it suppresses all of your main organs. Therefore
(06:46):
your body is slowly shutting down.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Well, this is now. Look, I haven't done Everest, but
I've been an air locker, so I don't. Oh, well,
I haven't. Okay, this is such a such a wrong
ruin to bring this up, but I did air the
other day.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
I'll get a journator call. This is an amazing story
leading on.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Mate, They'll make documentaries about this shit. I went to
and look, I've been retired from rugby league for a
year and a half, two years, so I talked about
a climatization for training. I'm not well acclimatized to get
back in the gym, but I went and did air locker.
Holy hecker. When they like stripped the oxygen out of it,
it is that tough, like the lack of if you
(07:26):
do a big effort on an assault bike or something
and then you're trying to get your breath and recover.
You just don't get it. You actually just cannot get
your breath back. Like it was tough.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
I spewed.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
I spewed, not proud of it, but I spewed everywhere
in that airlocker gym, and people were like scoffing at.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Me, good mate, as you were working.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
No, no, no, it wasn't like that because it was
like five minutes in well.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Okay, speaking about mental toughness. So and you learned a
lot about life, mental toughness about people through the military.
It's tough as it gets seventeen years of age. Now
you served Northern I on Macedonia, Afghanistan. He did security
work in Africa. I can imagine they're all so different.
(08:08):
What was what was it? What was the I'm trying
to scary is that I don't want to use the
most unpredictable. What what did you find the most challenging?
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Do you know what? Throughout my career, I suppose I
was introduced quite correctly into the process. So when I
when I passed, when I was seventeen, i passed. I
was in the Royal Engineers but then I passed pea
company which I became a para engineer. So I had
my maroon beret, had my parachute wings and I deployed
to Northern Ireland. But it was a piss up. I'm
(08:40):
not gonna lie here. I was. You know, we were
winding down from the from the day, from the you know,
from the sort of early eighties, late seventies and really
just handing over so that but that was my first
sort of peacekeeping tour, you know, where I sort of
eased into the process. And the Macedonia was a little
bit harier. You know, we were to prevent a civil
(09:00):
war from happening, therefore collecting arms from from locals and
from rebels, so you know there's a bit of hostility there,
there's a bit of action there. And then the Afghanistan
was just a completely different ballgame. You know. I went
from joining I went from going into from them being
(09:21):
a power engineer to then joining the Royal Marines, which
is the elite of the conventional forces and again not
special forces of the conventional forces. And I've done a
tour of Afghanistan as Section commander there and yeah, it
was kinetic. You know, you're seeing IDs go off, You're
seeing your muckers getting blown up, and that was like, wow,
(09:41):
you know you want to play soldier? This is this
is it?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
What's your role in that as well? Like are you
are you like on the ground, are you sniper?
Speaker 4 (09:49):
Are you?
Speaker 1 (09:49):
So at this stage, I was a section commander, so
I was in control of seven other men. There's eight
in a team. So I'm I'm patrolling around. I'm giving
and given an area of operations that I have to
patrol and that I have to have to take ground
and then keep the ground. And it's my job with
my team to maneuver us through this through this maze
(10:11):
of compounds basically and obviously through the maze of compounds
where the enemy know we're going that During that time,
it was id central. You know, it was just like
you just you know, sometimes you just hope and pray
that you know that you weren't the one that's going
to get blown up into the air. I mean.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
Winston Churchill he once said, you go way back to
that time, and there's been a lot of lessons learned
since then. He said, one of the two biggest rules
of war is don't invade Afghanistan and don't invade Afghanistan.
And that was before the Soviets before we went in there.
What makes it so difficult A lot of the nature
of the people.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Now, do you know what's it's the terrain. The terrain
is vast. You know. These guys are you know, so
sophisticated when it comes to tunneling, when it comes to
cave caving, and you know, building a fortress within the
mountains which you can't see. So ultimately it's all well
and good, you know, facing an enemy, but then trying
(11:08):
to chase or hunt down an enemy that you're in
their backyard. You know, you're going up to these caves,
and they're well versed in the mountains.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
You know.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
We used to know that if we had an operation
in the mountains, that we were we were up against
it in the in the villages, in the in the towns,
not so well trained, but in the mountains where they
cached all their weapons, they cached all their I D. Stuff,
they case, they cached absolutely everything. They were hardened fighters.
You could tell, you know, you could tell the difference
(11:40):
of train Soon as I knew that we were hitting
the mountains and then we had to obviously, you know,
scale up the mountain to attack. And then they disappear,
and then you'd look down certain you know, certain caving
holes and certain tunnels, and you could just tell it
was I a d central. You know, you wouldn't booby
trapped up to you. You wouldn't even dare go down there.
(12:01):
So they were so good at that maneuvering and evading.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Sorry, how did you feel, given the time you send
over there, spent over there, given the fact that your
lost comrades and friends, how did you feel of that
scene when we were rushing to get out and people
were rushing to get on the on the planes. How
did that make you feel?
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Do you know what? On one hand, I felt proud
because twenty years ago, you know, no one was rushing
to get out of Afghanistan. So when you looked at
it from a you know, bird's eye view, you think
to yourself, oh my god, this is absolutely horrendous. You know,
they're holding onto planes, they can't wait to get out.
(12:45):
They weren't doing that twenty years ago. It's only because
we came in and we started educating their women. We
started putting schools in for their children, and we started
building infrastructure. You know, we started giving them clean water,
We started painting a normal life for them, So when
that was stripped away from them, they weren't running from that.
(13:08):
They were running because they were used to twenty years
of used to a semi normal life. They were used
to structure, they were used to a bit of discipline,
they were used to having infrastructure around them, good schools,
good education, and all of a sudden that's whipped away.
Of course they're going to be running, running for the
hills because because they know that all of that's going
(13:30):
to get stripped away from them as well. So on
one hand, I thought to myself, what are they doing?
And I almost wanted to, you know, put my hands
over my eyes and go a cringe, you know, by
what are you doing? And then on the other hand,
I was just like, look what you created. You know,
they now know what normality is, and they now know
what civilization is. You know, they're blessed with that. So ultimately,
(13:51):
what they're doing is they're fighting for that, which for me,
you know, I took a sense of pride out of
that because I thought I was part of helping them,
you know, realize what life is all about.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
One of my favorite movies, American Sniper, Right, I always
think about this as how accurate it is as a
depiction when he's up on this and he's trying to
get an idea of whether the kids are civilian or
he's carrying a bomb, and he has to make a
decision to shoot to save his soldiers or whether they'll
leave him. Because imagine there's a lot of accountability as
(14:24):
a leader of a group you in that role, did
you ever have those especially when you're in Afghanistan, Like, well,
you don't know if they're a threat or you, or
they're a civilian, and how do you make that choice?
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Absolutely, especially when I went from being so I've done
three tours of Afghanistan. One is a section commander in
the War Marines and then two. Then after I got
back from my first tour of Afghanistan, I went on
Special Forces selection pass and within two weeks of passing selection,
I went straight back out to Afghanistan as a Special
Forces operator, not a conventional force. Special Forces hunting down
(14:57):
high value targets, nighttime operatations. Only mvgs go in get
the job done, you know, harder rest missions where we
would have to capture certain individuals to get information out
of them to prevent a bigger devastation from happening. So
my world sort of turned into this sort of let's
James Bondie and beyond, you know, and then talk about,
(15:21):
you know, the enemy using women, using children, you know
these I'll give you an idea of just how how
far they will go. You know, we we were after
an ID facilitator high value target HVT. And the reason
we knew he was in country because what they do
they go over to the border and then they come
back in organize their troops and they nit back over
(15:41):
the border where they think they can't be touched. And
I had a really big ID went off and it
killed something like eight raw marines. And this ID was
a kid with a willlborrow as a wheelborrow bomb. But
a kid in a field, farmer in a field, kid
(16:01):
in the field, not knowing what he's pushing, pushing it
past the patrol. The patrol doesn't think anything of it.
You know, it's got haste, hay over it, Boom, the
whole thing goes up. Children collateral, Right, this child was
just collateral. Eight dead. And that's just one example of
making that decision right. They got that wrong that day.
(16:21):
You know, they should just probably have. And it's easy
to say they probably should have stoped the child anywhere
near you will burrow, you know, but again, you know,
these are young Marines. You know, they're they're eighteen, nineteen,
twenty years old. You know, they're you know, they're kids themselves,
so they're just like, yeah, come through, kid. It's the
same with us. We used to hit targets and we
(16:42):
used to go into rooms deal with the hvt's sort
of security. If you wish becauld they, you know, there'd
be that that'd be our first line that we needed
to penetrate in order to get to the high value target.
And the closer you got to the to the HVT,
you'd come up against you know, they're just run past,
grab a kid, to give a kid or women. They
(17:04):
were very good at giving women weapons because what we
do naturally, because we're elite, good soldiers and good men,
we would go in and if it wasn't if it
was a woman or children, we would naturally and I
hate doing it. You'd naturally pause, you'd naturally go, what
will this is? You know, because of the humanity, I suppose,
(17:27):
because of what we've been brought up in society, you know,
to look after our children, to look after our women.
So there was always that and it was one of
those you know, do I pause and potentially put my
life at risk and my powers life at risk, or
do I do I neutralize what's in front of me
that is that is that could potentially take a life.
So I was met against We were met up against
(17:49):
that all the time, and they were very good at
doing that.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Like can imagine, like I think sometimes now and I've
got a careful word this, but I just don't know
these days how much incentive there is for young people
to go into military, given the fact that in the
society we live, when they come back, they're put in
those situations like that, and if they make a mistake,
(18:15):
they come back and we've seen situations where they're put
on war crimes. We have no thought to what the
scenario they've been put into.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Do you know what I've always gone into Because when
I joined the Special Forces, because I'd done so well
on selection in the jungles point man, because I just
loved that vol. I love to be sort of a
leader in my own right, you know, And even though
I wasn't the team leader, I was leading the team.
So that. I always loved doing that, and I've always
wanted to, you know, because I know my capability with
(18:46):
on the battlefield. I'd always say, rather me than someone else,
because you know, I've just you know, maybe wired a
little bit differently. You know. I love being point man.
I was really really keen and purposeful and driven to
to to do what's right as well and being point
man in the Special Forces, and that the missions that
(19:06):
we do, we're in firefights every single night. You know,
there's no doubt about it, you know, whether it's close
border operations, whether it's you know, in the province itself.
But I always I came up with a with an
ideology that really really worked for me. Now, I believe
that no one has the god given right to take life.
I truly believe that. You know, however, if you think
(19:29):
that you've got the right to take someone else's life,
I will simply deny you that right by taking your life,
therefore saving a life. So it was always I always
So when people say to me and was it like
taking a life, I'm like, well, I can tell you
what it's like saving a life. And you know, as
long as that saving a life was there, then I'd
(19:51):
have no problem pressing the trigger. And I've been in
situations before, and you know, we'll go over the situation
time and time and time again where I've been there
behind you know, we've breached a compound. I've seen you,
I've got my MVGS on. I've seen someone in a
doorway with a weapon and I've had my laser on
their on their head, you know, and it's and I'm
(20:12):
just like and every instinct in me, this is how
I knew, how I know I was a good soldier
even though I could pull the trigger. Yeah, and I
had every right to because we we were you know,
I was of engagement. Are a little bit different. And
the compound that in question is is you know, is
full of full of high value targets. I just I've
(20:35):
never done it. I was never a bullievable weapon. So
you know, it's like and I think to myself, well,
that that was the high value target that we then
went in and captured and that we put through the system,
and now it's back out two months later being processes.
Now we're going after the same guy. You know, I
think to myself, should I pressed the trigger? And but
then it's like, no, because in that moment, in that
(20:57):
time that I wasn't denying him the right of not
taking a life. So therefore, what life was I saving? None?
Speaker 2 (21:04):
You seem like the kind of blake that's got a
good read on people. And we're going to talk about
says in a minute, but before we move on to that, like,
did you see people that you served with? You can
tell you have a conscience by how you thinking about
your actions over there, how you justify taking a life?
Were there people there who had tendencies Like if they
weren't in the military and they weren't channeling that energy
(21:27):
into that, like they'd be killers in general society.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Like, but let me tell you something. You know, when
when you train and train and train and train, it's
like you guys will know, like you train because you
want to play in that cup final. You want to
play in that playoff. You want to you want to
win that trophy for us going into a kinetic kinetic
you know, into the deep dark corners where where the
(21:50):
fight is at its highest order. We want that, right,
This is what we trained our whole lives to do,
especially going through the through the ship of becoming a
power and marine. I was a sniper. I was a
primary fires operator, you know, I controlled bombs in the air,
I controlled drones, I controlled aircraft's. I was a point man.
You know. It's it's very hard when you and again
(22:14):
just putting it bluntly, when you when you taste blood,
to not be like a dog on a bloodlust. You know,
it's when you when you punch that hole and you're
like and you're in the moment, and it's you know,
it's like at first you're like, you know, you're you
are literally you need you need you or your your
mucker to recognize that. And this is in the heat
(22:37):
of the night to recognize that, to fucking pull you
back into check, which we were doing also, you know,
very first few missions, pulling each other back, going fucking
look like calm you know, once that room was clear, right,
fucking calm yourself down, room clear, Let's regather, let's regather
our thoughts. Where we go in next right into the
(22:59):
next door and tell straight away people could tell with me.
And it's but that's where teamwork comes into play. It's
not just a case of me having your back and
you're having your back. Is me grabbing you because I
know that this fucking firefighters has got the better of you.
And and it's really the psychological side behind being a
Special Forces operator goes way beyond the mission. You know,
(23:21):
people say, you know what, be dedicated and committed to
the cause. I'm like, we're Special Forces operators. You better
believe we're dedicating and committed. That's not an added extra.
We don't come into work and go, let's be dedicating.
That's already ingrained. That's in my DNA, that's in my blood.
It's about being dedicated and committed to each other, right
because the mission, the mission is there. It's about you know,
(23:41):
getting everyone through that mission, being dedicated and committed, just knowing,
you know, knowing that something's not right and pulling you
into check. That's what it's about.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
And I was watching last time. I was watching Blood
Diamond first time. Soon love that film.
Speaker 5 (23:55):
I love that film and Liberia and I'm watching the
film and you're dealing with child soldiers and like so
many levels of tragedy.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
You you were a VIP security in Africa.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
So that was after so I was. I actually done
a tour of duty in sarah Leone when I was
in the rural Marines. So the private security stuff came
after due to the contact that I made in sarah Leone.
So I was out there in two thousand and five,
two thousand and six doing a short term training team,
(24:32):
so teaching them elite jungle warfare tactics basically. You know,
it's sarahly onions a great people. They've got a wonderful
country full of minerals, you know, very rich, but just
very corrupt unfortunately. But their military are great. And when
(24:52):
I left the military, I got a phone call from
the Attorney General saying, you know, we are now part
of NATO. Can you can you come and train our
first ever snipers to deploy to Somalia. So I took
that contract on straight away. So I trained their first
ever snipers in Seraly and I trained three batches of
(25:13):
them to send over to Somalia. So that's where that's
sort of when I left the military, I went straight
into sort of like a government military job anyway, So
that was my role in serah Lyone. But what a
great country, great people, and it is my favorite country
in the world.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
Yeah, what was it like working with NATO compared to
what you were used to? You know, given there's a
lot of red tape as far as NATO's concerned.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Do you know what being a private contractor is great,
but you haven't got the top cover. You know, you
haven't got the top cover of the military, especially the
special forces. You know, the missions that we've done were
so highly kinetic and dangerous but safe at the same
time because you know, above me, I had two apaches.
The gunship, I had a fixed wing, that's it. I
(26:02):
had two drones I had you know, I could cool
him fast air. Whenever I wanted, I could call in
the apaches to take out and neutralize a direct target,
you know, so they were constantly at our disposal. When
I left the military, that top cover just went You're
al yeah, you're almost out there by yourself. So even
though I'm training these these these soldiers that the I
(26:28):
am the top cover. You know, it's it's a whole
different world and you don't feel unsettled by it, but
you know, you're out there by yourself.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
Says Australia. Yeah, it's a fantastic show. First question someone
that we're very close to, Sam Burgers. Sam Burgers, how
could Sam burge How long would it take? Sam Burgess,
do you think or to become a Special Forces.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
He'd have to shrink his head first, because he is
a sniper's dream. And talk about American sniper. I could
hit that head from two k from the hip. You
(27:15):
know what when he when he got stuck in the tube,
it was his shoulder that got stuck. It was his head.
I remember just looking through in his bolder heat. Now,
do you know what someone like Sammy is? Do you
know what?
Speaker 3 (27:29):
It is?
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Disciplined. That's what differentiates us, the British Special Forces from
from the rest. Is not that we've got no different weapons,
no different tech. It's just the the attention to detail
through being consistently disciplined at a level where that grain
of rice is out of place, that that that is outplay.
(27:53):
You know, that is so finicky and you're you're you're
sort of acted from such a young ages as the
military in general. And then what I didn't realize when
I joined the Marines is that I was being pushed
down the special Forces route due to my potential, et cetera,
et cetera. But the attention to detail that we have
(28:14):
and the minor details and the psychological work that we do,
which you know is the biggest, best kept secret of
the United Kingdom Special Forces is way beyond what anyone
else does.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
Well.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
You see, like from sporting background, particularly Sam, you see
sporting teams always draw on military for inspiration above for lessons,
like we used to do army camps when I was
at the Melbourne Storm. And the biggest lesson you take
from is when and it's actually hard in today's society,
pushing pushing players and pushing people past a breaking point,
(28:52):
like you know, for safety reasons. But back in those days,
particularly Sam would have experienced when you push someone so
far beyond a breaking point, the less you take from yourself,
like the lessons you learn about yourself. When Sam went
on that show, you can see that's a bloke who's
just done. He's had so much work, particularly psychologically, so
mentally resilient. Like that bleeds through the TV, like the
(29:13):
whole audience sort of could notice that.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Mate.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
I got in his face as well. I was calling
him a big headed more on and you fucking perfetic,
you have failed this course. And I was spitting in this,
you know, because I was just waiting for a crack.
All I want, all I want from people, and I'm
not waiting for a crack in a in a in
a bullying type of way, or in a crack in
(29:37):
your personality that needs developing, right, it's got nothing to do.
I want to develop your weakness, so you know, I
don't want to play to your strength. So I know
where your strengths are. I'm happy with that. You know,
I can almost go. Do you know what? That's seventy
percent of you done. That's what I do. That's what
I do with every single recruit. I go right where
their strengths. You're happy with that, you don't need to
work on that. Where's their weaknesses, where's their insecurities? You know,
(29:59):
where where their cracks? And all I want to do
is dig into them and find the tools that they
need to develop that. And that's exactly what I was
doing with Sam. And you know, the one time that
Sam cracked is when he silly couldn't get through that tube.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
That was awful to watch. I feel claustrophobic watching it.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Let me tell you this story about this and just
quickly so we've got we start off. We we're there
two three weeks before you know doing I'm doing everything.
I'm jumping out the helicopters doing all the rehearsals, making
sure because everything we put them through we go through.
But then when the tubes came up, you know, going
through there and and you know, this is about cluster,
it's about you know, facing your fears and phobias, and
(30:44):
that one was claustrophobia. Darkness had loads of loads of
things in there. And when we first got there, there
was two big two tubes, one big tube and one
small tube. And I said to the to the producer,
I said, why have you got two tubes here? They said,
because some people are bigger than others, because I don't
want to know who's on the course at this stage.
And I'm like, well, no, that's that's you know, we've
(31:05):
got got to be one tube. It's a small tube.
And they're like, but you know, we've got some big people.
And so so I know I'll get Foxy. I go, Foxy,
come over here, and there's a bit of tube laying
down and he sort of all he does is he
he's I think he just puts his shoulders in there
and then he comes out and I said, look, fox
he's a big guy, do you know what I mean?
I said that foxy can fit in there, anyone can
feel So get rid of the big tube. We're going
(31:26):
with the small tube. So and at this stage I'm
putting people through. They're wizzing through, and then you know
these and then all of a sudden, I'm thinking to myself,
I'm thinking, God, Sam's a big guy, and I say,
I say to him, right, and I put him last
on purpose. So when he gets stuck in the tube,
the moment he he says, stuff, I'm stuck.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
I can't get through.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
I lifted up the flat, which kept it dark in there,
and I was like, what do you mean You're stuck?
But I'm not. I'm not shipping around. I'm not joking
about I am stuck. I went, I went shut the head.
I just told him to calm down. So at this stage,
my whole career is just flashing from Front Health and Safety,
you know, and Middleton kills blah blah blah. I'm thinking,
(32:13):
you know, in order to get this tube out, we're
going to have to dig it out and crane it
out and crane Sam's big fat head out of there.
So Michaels, So I left up the flat nice and cool.
When I say to him, I say number. I forgot
the number. He wasn't number twelve. I think, so number
number twelve. I said, I shouldn't be telling you this,
but do you not think that we've put someone bigger
(32:35):
than you through this fucking tube?
Speaker 3 (32:38):
All right?
Speaker 1 (32:38):
And you see him, he's looking up, he's got these
little puppy dog eyes at this day because he is
literally dying. You need for your sake now, I needed
to talk about psychological mind games, so I say to him,
and you can see something just tweaked inside of him.
And I've been stuck in it what's called smarty tube before,
(33:01):
with all my kit on it down at Limbston through
raw marine training, and all I'd done to get out,
I literally couldn't move, but I just pushed my toes.
All I've done with my toes was wo bend them
back and just inch myself inch by inch. And then
when I said that, you know, do you not think
we put it? That gave him that sense of hope,
that sense of belief right which change. I could see
it in his eyes. I could literally And then when
(33:23):
I told him the technique to push with his toes,
he'd done that for about forty five minutes until I
could reach in grab his hand and sort of put
him out of the tube. And then obviously my career
came flourishing back to me. O. Yes, but that was
that was the moment that I thought to myself, Ah,
you know, this is where you know claustaphobia, tight spaces,
This is a fear and phobia.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
It's funny when the human mind, when the human mind
knows see someone else to or knows someone else has
done It's like the form minute mile that hadn't been cracked.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Someone cracked someone training in air lock. Yeah, it can't
be done.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Yeah, I mean, I think they stripped all the oxygen
out of the day when I was doing it. But
when somebody, you know, somebody breaks the formulut, my people
think it's not possible. And then I think, within twelve months,
like another three or four people did it. Just the
belief of someone doing it.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
But he's purely psychological, you know, Mattie, when you look
at it, it's purely psychological. And that's what I say, you know,
when that's why we demonstrate everything I go wrong. I'm
going to tell you this once once only watching to
the demonstration. We're going to explain it once it's over
to you and that we do it, and they go, right,
it can be done, and then it's a case of right,
(34:31):
he's done it his way, how do I do it
my way? So then then there's that, and then there's
like if I do it my way, do I trust myself?
Speaker 4 (34:39):
You know?
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Am I capable of doing this? All this self doubt
comes in that you put on yourself. And this is
the interesting psychological aspect of the show. And this is
why I love love doing it because when you it's
so much more when I first started out there, like
the production cup, just do a boot camp, you know,
just no, no, no, no goes so much, don't you know,
(35:03):
don't belittle me, you know, don't don't don't you go
so much deeper than this. And then when you Sackly
see it, like you said, you thought you in that tube,
you thought that's what the show's about.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
You're right now the other the other end of the
uh spectrum on that show, that series, which I actually
had done, be too hard because actually I think towards
the end he really redeemed himself and you saw the
dooms he was battling. Was Mark phillipursas. But the bit
that I still laugh when they're all about all the
(35:33):
contestants are about to go into into the water a
swimming challenge. I forget exactly what it was, but everyone's
got their their gear and they go, okay, is it
one ready? And Phils go, can I just say something?
What he goes, I've just got a sandwich in my bag,
is aye gon plastic bag that I could rap it.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
I love it when things are because normally it's one
of the other dsque They wouldn't dare say it if
I was if I was running the stance. So normally
it's one of the other ds running it, you know.
And so and I'm in the background of my ears
prick up and I'm just like step aside. And that's
what I love about it as well, you know, And
people say, you know, and are you like this in
(36:13):
real life? You screaming?
Speaker 4 (36:14):
I'm like, no, this this is this is the the
the disciplinarian military instructor, you know, I dealt this is
why the all the instructors are so different. You know.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Olie's got a softer approach. Foxes, you know, more of
a sort of sit back, take it all in person,
I'm in your face, you know, up your rs as such,
because I dealt well with that in the military, when
I had a military instructor that was on my ass
telling me if I didn't get to the front of
the group, they were going to kick my head in,
that he was going to, you know, pummel me in
after this, and you know, how dare you know? And
(36:47):
he's in my my ears ringing. I reacted well to that.
That's that's that's what made me actually go, I don't
want this guy on my ass, you know, and I'd
get to the front of the group. Where some people
don't deal well with that. Some people you know more
of a right. You know, you're better than this. You
know you've old you've let yourself down, and you've let
the team down, exactly, you let your family. So that's
(37:11):
that's that's why I do it, because that's how I
reacted well in the military. So all I'm doing is
reciprocating what worked for me, and then then then that
might be your time to step in and go right,
that's not working for him. This is where Foxy steps in,
This is where Olie steps in.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
Coop said before all the things that you've done and experienced.
Yet you're a great judge of character when when you
when you're seeing it straight away, when the contestants comes
through one by one, can you go they're going to
make it? They're not, do you know? Straight away? Get instinctively,
you know, straight away.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
I know within the and that's why we thrash them.
And they're probably giving it away a little bit here.
But it's a technique that we use, which is called
when we process them, you know, when we strip them
down and we give them their numbers and we give
them you know, there's a whole reason behind that. We're
not just you know, basically stripping them from being a
civilian and sort of into into a military individual. I'most
(38:06):
assessing absolutely. That's why give my main brief and I
step back from that, because I can just tell by
their demeanor, by the way they're looking around, you know,
by the by you know, by their gates, by the
by the way they're holding themselves, if they're disciplined, I
can tell if they're if they're here for the right reasons.
I can tell if they're if they're committed to the
to the cause, if they if they're just going to
(38:28):
you know, surrender themselves to the process. I can tell
that within the first five minutes, just by someone. You know.
It's just like I can just tell and those people
that are just there listening in, taking it all in,
doing their own stuff at the beginning, because that's what
you do. You want to do your own ship to
make sure that you're squared away in that processing phase
because nothing teamwork about it. It's like, right, he's telling
(38:50):
me how to act, he's telling me how to dress,
he's telling me how to I need to do things.
Can I take that in from day dot and then
from the very first command thereafter? I know who who who?
The people that are there for the right reasons.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
Right society. And do you think do you think generation
by generation we are getting.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Softer, softer physically, yes, but we're getting way more savvy.
You know, you look at Special Forces selection right now,
the the you know, you just had to be a hard,
hard guy, do you know, I mean resilient. You know,
you put your house on your back, you know, travel
(39:29):
over the mountains, you know, pick up a weapon, be
safe with it, get into a firefights. Endurance, resilience and hardship.
Once you got through that you know, yeah, you know,
you're a hardened soldier. Well, now it's a lot more technical,
it's a lot more tactical, it's a lot more tech savvy,
shall we say so, I would say that the caliber
(39:53):
of individuals now moving with the modern world actually suit
it quite nicely. But when it comes to the resilience
and and the hardship and the hard you know, it's
that is lacking.
Speaker 4 (40:08):
You know.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
So there's got I like, I like the balance between
the two. But then you look at the world, you think,
you know where we headed, you know, are we going
to ever ever need to suffer such hardships ever? Again?
You know, you talk about modern day warfare, it's drones, buttons,
it's technical, it's it's it's tech savvy, it's you know,
(40:28):
boots on the ground. Yeah, boots on the ground, which
is always always needed for that, you know, for that
sort of clarified intel picture. But the way the world's going, yes, softer, definitely.
But but I think we're I think the younger generation
are moving in the right direction.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
And I feel sorry sometimes for young men, you know,
because a lot of words get thrown around these days.
One that is so overused by people the hero and
work is toxic masculinitly right now, I get it. I know,
I know a toxic masculinity is right, I know, but
just but I've seen situations where a person has saved
(41:06):
someone and they've gone out and said, oh, it was
all about there. It's toxic masculinity, and I just think
it does my fucking head in. Yeah, I just I
cannot believe it. It's like, okay, you know all those
people believe in toxic masculinity, but what about if someone
breaks into your house he's got a gun and you
(41:27):
require believe or not, like you know, I just say it,
but a male to actually help you.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
Yeah, no, absolutely, mate, listens, that's just a word I think. Well,
I know it's just a fad. You know, lots of
things have come into play, and you know, all of
a sudden they're non sustainable. You know, it's like toxic
what you know, being too masculine, being too you know,
that's non non sustainable. That's a fad that that's come
in and it will die out like like all the
(41:53):
other fads have over the last few years. I don't
take any notice of it. And at the end of
the day, when you know, yourself. You know, I know
that I'm a good man. Yes, I've got I've got
faults of you know, I've got negative traits about me,
but that that's a tiny percentage of who I am.
You know, ninety percent of me is good, is compassionate,
(42:14):
is loving, is empathetic, is you know, is accepting. You know, again,
going back to being that bully with a weapon, I
know that in those moments of pure humanity, life and death,
that that that I'm a good man. You know, my
instincts are good. So as long as long as I
know that, then of course you're going to be charged.
(42:36):
Of course, people are going to jump on the bandwagon,
and it's very hard not to react to it. But
ultimately you're reacting to someone else's ideology, someone else else's
sort of thoughts and process and and I've learned and
I've learned not to do that. And that's why people say,
but myself, you know, I just stay true to who
I am. When people know me for who I am,
(42:58):
they know exactly what they're going to get, the exactly
what they're going to be they're getting themselves in for.
They know exactly that they're going to get a raw
authentic version of myself. You know, I'm not really going
to be around the version, but I'm happy to accommodate.
But then, obviously, with the media and all of these
fads coming in and out, you can they try and
fit you into a certain category. And for someone like myself,
(43:19):
it would be into that category. And I've taken a
lot of flat through it. But I'm still here, mate.
I mean, it's like, it's like, so the storm. As
long as you the storm will come over you, but
as long as you stay true to yourself and your
direction in life, that storm will pass.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
It's you talking about how you're a discipline aian because
that's what worked for you. That's your coaching style. Now,
I had to coach Craig Bellamy at the Storm. He
was very much the same that. Obviously, word for him
had brought the best out of him. So he was
like that. His favorite saying was making you, making you
comfortable with the uncomfortable. Put you in situations on the
sporting field that would be as uncomfortable as it gets,
(43:54):
and you train that so when you're out there in
those situations you feel comfortable in it. I was watching
The Accountant the other day great movie The Accountant, But
I got thinking to.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Come out of the air locker? Did you come out
of the airlocker straight into the account straight into the
account He actually thought it was a documentary.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
It was, but I was watching it and leading into
this interview, I got things I wanted to ask you,
because you are a discipline there, and you're a hard coach.
You push people hard. In that movie, Ben Affleck, who
has he plays a character as Aspergess and he's his
dad had a military background and his theory was, rather
(44:31):
than bring him up in an environment where he's nurtured,
he would push his son and put him in the
most uncomfortable situations to train his mind to be comfortable
when he was an adult in those situations. And I mean,
obviously it worked out. He was killing people by the end,
which we don't condone, not in general society, of course,
but it just it just made me, you know, I think,
(44:53):
particularly in the modern society where there is a lot
of not wanting to put people in uncomfortable city situations
to nurture them, do you think that's a bit of
a hindrance Like in some cases some cases it isn't,
But do you think putting people in those situations.
Speaker 3 (45:10):
Well, I did that for you, Cooper. Do remember I
never used to let the butler cook.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
For you, and it's to pick it up off the floor.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
And yeah, and now look at me now.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
But do you know what, Cooper, Know, You're exactly right.
Society doesn't cater for for the uncomfortable. You know, everything
is done for you. You're you're you're taught where to go,
you're controlled where to go, you're you know, you're you're
told how to act, You're you're told how to think,
especially more and more in modern day society. But I
(45:45):
always say to my children there's no growth in comfort.
And what I mean by that is I will give
my children enough rope to trip up on, but not
obviously enough rope to hang themselves hypothetically, because that's irresponsible parenting.
But I know, I know my son's headed heading into it,
and I'm just like, oh, son, you know, and I
(46:07):
could go whoa there, but I'm just like, you know,
and moments where you just go no, no, no, you know,
to to my wife, just let them figure it out.
The bomb is, you know, he's he's hit face first,
and I'm just like dragging him up and going, son,
are you're good? Right? Listen? You know? And then but
(46:28):
nine times out of ten, when you debrief your son
once or your your children or work colleague or whatever
it may be, when they've when they've taken a hard full,
they've already debriefed themselves. You know, they've already figured it
ninety percent of it. They figured it out themselves. And
all you do is you you use that small five
percent where you just point in the right direction and
(46:49):
guide and protect from the rear right, and it's just like,
oh no, he's going to hang himself in the right son,
whoa hold on? My daughter? Whoa dunn? You know, look
at this in a different way, tackle this a different way.
I can see what's coming through my life experience. And
they're the hard conversations that we have through life, right,
good a little step.
Speaker 3 (47:06):
In their own portholes sometimes finally, Mayor of London.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Oh, the Mayor of London, what do you what do
you think? Do you know?
Speaker 4 (47:20):
What?
Speaker 1 (47:20):
Mate? With the Mayor of London's When I look at
my purpose in life and what I've done and where
I've been, you know, I'm a server of people. It's
as simple as that. You know. It's when I was
in the military, I'd serve my muckers, I'd serve my country.
I'd serve you know, at the time, the Queen and
the country men and women of my country. And when
I look at everything I've done in the media, I'm
(47:42):
just serving people. And what I mean by serving people,
I'm there to help you become the best version of
who you can be. I'm there to help you identify,
you know where your fears and phobias are, and how
to overcome them, and how to be emotionally intelligent enough
and psychologically resilient enough to get through life. And so
when the Mayor of London, when the Mayor of London
(48:04):
sort of came up and my name got bantered around,
I thought to myself, do you know what you know?
I've served in the military. I'm now, you know, in
this media space where ultimately I'm still serving the people,
which I truly believe that I am when you when
you go deep into it and a career, not so
(48:26):
much in politics, because even though the Mayor of London
is a small political role, it's not which I really like.
And hence why I've been really keen to sort of
push on with it. I just think, you know, with
the state of London at the moment and the crime
and the personal safety that's there and you only have
to you know, walk the streets and see it that
(48:48):
I feel the need to serve again. And that's what
it is. Is not I live a good life, trust me,
Cooper May I live a good life. I'm happy and
my kids are happy. You know, they're thriving in life,
bouncing around the world doing my thing.
Speaker 3 (49:05):
You know.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
The last thing I believe it or not I want
to go back to England is you know it is
the rain is that is the misery of the UK.
Speaker 2 (49:15):
And if you saw in Afghanistan, I was sad. You
get the politics.
Speaker 1 (49:19):
That's exactly. So listen. It's not confirmed, but it's not denied.
It's it's something that I'm really considering with the family.
But when I left the military, I promised my wife,
which I didn't do. I promised my wife that I
put the family first. But when I was in the
military I didn't and that was for obvious reasons. But
(49:43):
now it feels like I'm going back on that promise.
If I jump into into this, well, if.
Speaker 3 (49:49):
You do get in just the reason I ask if
you do get in, I've got a few text problems.
Speaker 1 (49:54):
Haven't we all made? Haven't we all?
Speaker 3 (49:57):
You're a champion mate. We don't take any more of
your time. We really thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
Brother, thank you my man. Guys, thank you m
If you're in my hot seat, that's what you want
to go in, little challenge. I don't want to be challenged, right, yeah, yeah,
he's doing his best.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Well, we don't have to worry about dad when.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
He was a kid. So what a you're do when
you grow up and you said, I'm going to take.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
All your joke all your jobs used to laugh and
jokes as well?
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Yeah yeah, well that really works.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
And now you're working together and love that. A team,
family unit, family team, that's what.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Well, if you can't trust your family, well who can
you trust?
Speaker 1 (00:35):
No one?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
No, no, apparently not. That's what that's what we live by.
So we are we're out of your studio here and
where you record your podcast? Head Game?
Speaker 1 (00:44):
That's right?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Yeah, yeah yeah, So run us through. What it's about.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
The head Game is just talking to ordinary people that
have extraordinary stories. So what I do is I tap
into their mindset on how they've overcome certain situations, the
mindset they utilized, and you know, whether that was fear panic,
whether they were facing a certain phobia. Because the people
that I interview are left with one option in life,
(01:08):
and it's almost like a do or die and sometimes
it is that serious they've got to make a decision
otherwise they're not going to make it through. But also
do or die with decisions about work, decisions about family.
You know, all these hard choices and how they got
through certain situations. So it's fascinating because everyone has a
(01:29):
story yet has well.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I imagine sports people and military people. You know that's
your strength, like that's they're the probably people you relate
to most. Who's surprised you of the guests you've had on.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Do you know what? I've had all sorts of guests,
And this is where Nova's so good at just you know,
hand picking these these individuals because I like to really
not do too much homework. I like to just take
them at face value, really tap into their story. And
I might have have certain questions for example, and then
I've asked none of them users like you've asked none
(02:02):
of these questions. But what a hell of a podcast
because we just go off on a tangrum and I
just really feel where they're going and try and extract
their story of raw emotions. So I've had I've had
people that have had their faces ripped off by by
bears in Canada. I've had people stuck in minds, you
know that where the oxygen's diminishing and they're slowly dying,
(02:26):
but they're having to really dig deep psychologically and put
on certain emotions, whether that's family, whether that's loved ones,
whether that's just the sheer will to survive. And what
I love about my podcast is these people are left
with one option, you know, and when you're left with
one option in life, you'll be amazed at what you
can achieve, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Isn't when you look at things like you know, and
we always liking it. Sport, it's people say, you know,
when you go into professional sport, you've got to do
one thing. You're going to make sure. You've got to
plan V. Well, sometimes you want to make it. Don't
have a plan B. That's all or.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Nothing, matty, You are bang on there. And it's the
same in the military. As long as there's a plan,
there's a there's a way through. You know, a lot
of people are so risk adverse nowadays. What they want
they want to plan, they want they want the solution,
the option, and then they want to plan a, B, C,
D and E around it, and they go right, as
long as you've got three or four plans around it,
(03:24):
then we can execute what needs to be done.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
No, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Is there an option? Is there one option forward?
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Here?
Speaker 1 (03:30):
If there is, go for it.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Well we've had an amazing life. But more recently, you
just got back from Everest base camp as well. Because
the big fella here, Matthew, mate, he's he doesn't like
toot his own hole and he's very humble, but he
went to I do Yeah, he went to base camp
as well with a few of his ex teammates.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Yeah, well we did actually to what happened, and we
did it, and then we went and celebrated after we
hit it. And then a guy come to the come
to the tea house and said, listen, there's one further
up color Batan, why don't you do then? This one's
not too hard, And me and my old captain we
went and did it. I got to say it. I've
got so much respect for you your military guys, because
(04:10):
I remember doing it. Get un in the morning, just filling,
that's sick in the stomach, and I'm walking up and
I'm saying to my old captain Chief, I said, I'm exhausted,
I'm sick in the stomach, I'm deteriorating quickly. Can imagine
being in war. We're in carbull and there might be
someone hiding in a cave and everything. It's just like
(04:31):
it shows the mental tough and of you guys.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Do you know what Matti just to do? Every space
camp is no easy feat. People think that it's at
the base of a mountain. It's three hundred meters on
the way to Mount Everest, which sits just below nine
thousand meters, so you're more than halfway up Mount Everest.
It's higher than most of the seven summits. So just
(04:56):
to get there with the lack of oxygen that you know,
and the lack of knowledge. And I always say to
my to my clients, because I took ten clients recently
up to every space camp, Listen to your body. Be aware.
The altitude will pinch you in the ass at a
certain time that you won't expect it. Your emotions will
(05:16):
be everywhere. You feel like you can't breathe, you start
to panic and fear will kick in, and that's when
you know that you need to really really listen to
your body. It's no easy feet makes the hats off
to you and the isummated Mount Everest actually to the
top in twenty eighteen, so you under the top. Yeah,
I went to the top in twenty and eighteen, and
then I just took ten clients on a sort of
(05:39):
VIP expedition to every space company.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Yeah, when you've been to the top, how like when
you do base camp? I imagine, do you not feel
like the a climate, like the lack of oxygen since
you've been to the top, is your like white blood
cells that you must have not really felt anything going
to base camp then or No.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
You always have to acclimatize. Once you're a way from
from the mountains, let's call it, once you've sort of
come down from the mountains, there's probably a two to
three week period that you were acclimatized. So say I
came down from Mount Iris and I wanted to go
and jump on let's see the fourth biggest mountain in
the world or the fifth you know lots say for example,
which is I think it's it's at eight at eight three,
(06:23):
I will be acclimatized to go and do that. However,
if I'm away from the mountains for two three weeks
and I have to reacclimatize so I have to go
back into the process of making sure that I take
my time, making sure that you know that I'm well
fed and well nourished, because the high you get, the
lack of oxygen sort of suppresses your hunger. It suppresses
you know, it suppresses all of your main organs. Therefore
(06:46):
your body is slowly shutting down.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Well, this is now. Look, I haven't done Everest, but
I've been an air locker, so I don't. Oh, well,
I haven't. Okay, this is such a such a wrong
ruin to bring this up, but I did air the
other day.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
I'll get a journator call. This is an amazing story
leading on.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Mate, They'll make documentaries about this shit. I went to
and look, I've been retired from rugby league for a
year and a half, two years, so I talked about
a climatization for training. I'm not well acclimatized to get
back in the gym, but I went and did air locker.
Holy hecker. When they like stripped the oxygen out of it,
it is that tough, like the lack of if you
(07:26):
do a big effort on an assault bike or something
and then you're trying to get your breath and recover.
You just don't get it. You actually just cannot get
your breath back. Like it was tough.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
I spewed.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
I spewed, not proud of it, but I spewed everywhere
in that airlocker gym, and people were like scoffing at.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Me, good mate, as you were working.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
No, no, no, it wasn't like that because it was
like five minutes in well.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Okay, speaking about mental toughness. So and you learned a
lot about life, mental toughness about people through the military.
It's tough as it gets seventeen years of age. Now
you served Northern I on Macedonia, Afghanistan. He did security
work in Africa. I can imagine they're all so different.
(08:08):
What was what was it? What was the I'm trying
to scary is that I don't want to use the
most unpredictable. What what did you find the most challenging?
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Do you know what? Throughout my career, I suppose I
was introduced quite correctly into the process. So when I
when I passed, when I was seventeen, i passed. I
was in the Royal Engineers but then I passed pea
company which I became a para engineer. So I had
my maroon beret, had my parachute wings and I deployed
to Northern Ireland. But it was a piss up. I'm
(08:40):
not gonna lie here. I was. You know, we were
winding down from the from the day, from the you know,
from the sort of early eighties, late seventies and really
just handing over so that but that was my first
sort of peacekeeping tour, you know, where I sort of
eased into the process. And the Macedonia was a little
bit harier. You know, we were to prevent a civil
(09:00):
war from happening, therefore collecting arms from from locals and
from rebels, so you know there's a bit of hostility there,
there's a bit of action there. And then the Afghanistan
was just a completely different ballgame. You know. I went
from joining I went from going into from them being
(09:21):
a power engineer to then joining the Royal Marines, which
is the elite of the conventional forces and again not
special forces of the conventional forces. And I've done a
tour of Afghanistan as Section commander there and yeah, it
was kinetic. You know, you're seeing IDs go off, You're
seeing your muckers getting blown up, and that was like, wow,
(09:41):
you know you want to play soldier? This is this
is it?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
What's your role in that as well? Like are you
are you like on the ground, are you sniper?
Speaker 4 (09:49):
Are you?
Speaker 1 (09:49):
So at this stage, I was a section commander, so
I was in control of seven other men. There's eight
in a team. So I'm I'm patrolling around. I'm giving
and given an area of operations that I have to
patrol and that I have to have to take ground
and then keep the ground. And it's my job with
my team to maneuver us through this through this maze
(10:11):
of compounds basically and obviously through the maze of compounds
where the enemy know we're going that During that time,
it was id central. You know, it was just like
you just you know, sometimes you just hope and pray
that you know that you weren't the one that's going
to get blown up into the air. I mean.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
Winston Churchill he once said, you go way back to
that time, and there's been a lot of lessons learned
since then. He said, one of the two biggest rules
of war is don't invade Afghanistan and don't invade Afghanistan.
And that was before the Soviets before we went in there.
What makes it so difficult A lot of the nature
of the people.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Now, do you know what's it's the terrain. The terrain
is vast. You know. These guys are you know, so
sophisticated when it comes to tunneling, when it comes to
cave caving, and you know, building a fortress within the
mountains which you can't see. So ultimately it's all well
and good, you know, facing an enemy, but then trying
(11:08):
to chase or hunt down an enemy that you're in
their backyard. You know, you're going up to these caves,
and they're well versed in the mountains.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
You know.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
We used to know that if we had an operation
in the mountains, that we were we were up against
it in the in the villages, in the in the towns,
not so well trained, but in the mountains where they
cached all their weapons, they cached all their I D. Stuff,
they case, they cached absolutely everything. They were hardened fighters.
You could tell, you know, you could tell the difference
(11:40):
of train Soon as I knew that we were hitting
the mountains and then we had to obviously, you know,
scale up the mountain to attack. And then they disappear,
and then you'd look down certain you know, certain caving
holes and certain tunnels, and you could just tell it
was I a d central. You know, you wouldn't booby
trapped up to you. You wouldn't even dare go down there.
(12:01):
So they were so good at that maneuvering and evading.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Sorry, how did you feel, given the time you send
over there, spent over there, given the fact that your
lost comrades and friends, how did you feel of that
scene when we were rushing to get out and people
were rushing to get on the on the planes. How
did that make you feel?
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Do you know what? On one hand, I felt proud
because twenty years ago, you know, no one was rushing
to get out of Afghanistan. So when you looked at
it from a you know, bird's eye view, you think
to yourself, oh my god, this is absolutely horrendous. You know,
they're holding onto planes, they can't wait to get out.
(12:45):
They weren't doing that twenty years ago. It's only because
we came in and we started educating their women. We
started putting schools in for their children, and we started
building infrastructure. You know, we started giving them clean water,
We started painting a normal life for them, So when
that was stripped away from them, they weren't running from that.
(13:08):
They were running because they were used to twenty years
of used to a semi normal life. They were used
to structure, they were used to a bit of discipline,
they were used to having infrastructure around them, good schools,
good education, and all of a sudden that's whipped away.
Of course they're going to be running, running for the
hills because because they know that all of that's going
(13:30):
to get stripped away from them as well. So on
one hand, I thought to myself, what are they doing?
And I almost wanted to, you know, put my hands
over my eyes and go a cringe, you know, by
what are you doing? And then on the other hand,
I was just like, look what you created. You know,
they now know what normality is, and they now know
what civilization is. You know, they're blessed with that. So ultimately,
(13:51):
what they're doing is they're fighting for that, which for me,
you know, I took a sense of pride out of
that because I thought I was part of helping them,
you know, realize what life is all about.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
One of my favorite movies, American Sniper, Right, I always
think about this as how accurate it is as a
depiction when he's up on this and he's trying to
get an idea of whether the kids are civilian or
he's carrying a bomb, and he has to make a
decision to shoot to save his soldiers or whether they'll
leave him. Because imagine there's a lot of accountability as
(14:24):
a leader of a group you in that role, did
you ever have those especially when you're in Afghanistan, Like, well,
you don't know if they're a threat or you, or
they're a civilian, and how do you make that choice?
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Absolutely, especially when I went from being so I've done
three tours of Afghanistan. One is a section commander in
the War Marines and then two. Then after I got
back from my first tour of Afghanistan, I went on
Special Forces selection pass and within two weeks of passing selection,
I went straight back out to Afghanistan as a Special
Forces operator, not a conventional force. Special Forces hunting down
(14:57):
high value targets, nighttime operatations. Only mvgs go in get
the job done, you know, harder rest missions where we
would have to capture certain individuals to get information out
of them to prevent a bigger devastation from happening. So
my world sort of turned into this sort of let's
James Bondie and beyond, you know, and then talk about,
(15:21):
you know, the enemy using women, using children, you know
these I'll give you an idea of just how how
far they will go. You know, we we were after
an ID facilitator high value target HVT. And the reason
we knew he was in country because what they do
they go over to the border and then they come
back in organize their troops and they nit back over
(15:41):
the border where they think they can't be touched. And
I had a really big ID went off and it
killed something like eight raw marines. And this ID was
a kid with a willlborrow as a wheelborrow bomb. But
a kid in a field, farmer in a field, kid
(16:01):
in the field, not knowing what he's pushing, pushing it
past the patrol. The patrol doesn't think anything of it.
You know, it's got haste, hay over it, Boom, the
whole thing goes up. Children collateral, Right, this child was
just collateral. Eight dead. And that's just one example of
making that decision right. They got that wrong that day.
(16:21):
You know, they should just probably have. And it's easy
to say they probably should have stoped the child anywhere
near you will burrow, you know, but again, you know,
these are young Marines. You know, they're they're eighteen, nineteen,
twenty years old. You know, they're you know, they're kids themselves,
so they're just like, yeah, come through, kid. It's the
same with us. We used to hit targets and we
(16:42):
used to go into rooms deal with the hvt's sort
of security. If you wish becauld they, you know, there'd
be that that'd be our first line that we needed
to penetrate in order to get to the high value target.
And the closer you got to the to the HVT,
you'd come up against you know, they're just run past,
grab a kid, to give a kid or women. They
(17:04):
were very good at giving women weapons because what we
do naturally, because we're elite, good soldiers and good men,
we would go in and if it wasn't if it
was a woman or children, we would naturally and I
hate doing it. You'd naturally pause, you'd naturally go, what
will this is? You know, because of the humanity, I suppose,
(17:27):
because of what we've been brought up in society, you know,
to look after our children, to look after our women.
So there was always that and it was one of
those you know, do I pause and potentially put my
life at risk and my powers life at risk, or
do I do I neutralize what's in front of me
that is that is that could potentially take a life.
So I was met against We were met up against
(17:49):
that all the time, and they were very good at
doing that.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Like can imagine, like I think sometimes now and I've
got a careful word this, but I just don't know
these days how much incentive there is for young people
to go into military, given the fact that in the
society we live, when they come back, they're put in
those situations like that, and if they make a mistake,
(18:15):
they come back and we've seen situations where they're put
on war crimes. We have no thought to what the
scenario they've been put into.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Do you know what I've always gone into Because when
I joined the Special Forces, because I'd done so well
on selection in the jungles point man, because I just
loved that vol. I love to be sort of a
leader in my own right, you know, And even though
I wasn't the team leader, I was leading the team.
So that. I always loved doing that, and I've always
wanted to, you know, because I know my capability with
(18:46):
on the battlefield. I'd always say, rather me than someone else,
because you know, I've just you know, maybe wired a
little bit differently. You know. I love being point man.
I was really really keen and purposeful and driven to
to to do what's right as well and being point
man in the Special Forces, and that the missions that
(19:06):
we do, we're in firefights every single night. You know,
there's no doubt about it, you know, whether it's close
border operations, whether it's you know, in the province itself.
But I always I came up with a with an
ideology that really really worked for me. Now, I believe
that no one has the god given right to take life.
I truly believe that. You know, however, if you think
(19:29):
that you've got the right to take someone else's life,
I will simply deny you that right by taking your life,
therefore saving a life. So it was always I always
So when people say to me and was it like
taking a life, I'm like, well, I can tell you
what it's like saving a life. And you know, as
long as that saving a life was there, then I'd
(19:51):
have no problem pressing the trigger. And I've been in
situations before, and you know, we'll go over the situation
time and time and time again where I've been there
behind you know, we've breached a compound. I've seen you,
I've got my MVGS on. I've seen someone in a
doorway with a weapon and I've had my laser on
their on their head, you know, and it's and I'm
(20:12):
just like and every instinct in me, this is how
I knew, how I know I was a good soldier
even though I could pull the trigger. Yeah, and I
had every right to because we we were you know,
I was of engagement. Are a little bit different. And
the compound that in question is is you know, is
full of full of high value targets. I just I've
(20:35):
never done it. I was never a bullievable weapon. So
you know, it's like and I think to myself, well,
that that was the high value target that we then
went in and captured and that we put through the system,
and now it's back out two months later being processes.
Now we're going after the same guy. You know, I
think to myself, should I pressed the trigger? And but
then it's like, no, because in that moment, in that
(20:57):
time that I wasn't denying him the right of not
taking a life. So therefore, what life was I saving? None?
Speaker 2 (21:04):
You seem like the kind of blake that's got a
good read on people. And we're going to talk about
says in a minute, but before we move on to that, like,
did you see people that you served with? You can
tell you have a conscience by how you thinking about
your actions over there, how you justify taking a life?
Were there people there who had tendencies Like if they
weren't in the military and they weren't channeling that energy
(21:27):
into that, like they'd be killers in general society.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Like, but let me tell you something. You know, when
when you train and train and train and train, it's
like you guys will know, like you train because you
want to play in that cup final. You want to
play in that playoff. You want to you want to
win that trophy for us going into a kinetic kinetic
you know, into the deep dark corners where where the
(21:50):
fight is at its highest order. We want that, right,
This is what we trained our whole lives to do,
especially going through the through the ship of becoming a
power and marine. I was a sniper. I was a
primary fires operator, you know, I controlled bombs in the air,
I controlled drones, I controlled aircraft's. I was a point man.
You know. It's it's very hard when you and again
(22:14):
just putting it bluntly, when you when you taste blood,
to not be like a dog on a bloodlust. You know,
it's when you when you punch that hole and you're
like and you're in the moment, and it's you know,
it's like at first you're like, you know, you're you
are literally you need you need you or your your
mucker to recognize that. And this is in the heat
(22:37):
of the night to recognize that, to fucking pull you
back into check, which we were doing also, you know,
very first few missions, pulling each other back, going fucking
look like calm you know, once that room was clear, right,
fucking calm yourself down, room clear, Let's regather, let's regather
our thoughts. Where we go in next right into the
(22:59):
next door and tell straight away people could tell with me.
And it's but that's where teamwork comes into play. It's
not just a case of me having your back and
you're having your back. Is me grabbing you because I
know that this fucking firefighters has got the better of you.
And and it's really the psychological side behind being a
Special Forces operator goes way beyond the mission. You know,
(23:21):
people say, you know what, be dedicated and committed to
the cause. I'm like, we're Special Forces operators. You better
believe we're dedicating and committed. That's not an added extra.
We don't come into work and go, let's be dedicating.
That's already ingrained. That's in my DNA, that's in my blood.
It's about being dedicated and committed to each other, right
because the mission, the mission is there. It's about you know,
(23:41):
getting everyone through that mission, being dedicated and committed, just knowing,
you know, knowing that something's not right and pulling you
into check. That's what it's about.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
And I was watching last time. I was watching Blood
Diamond first time. Soon love that film.
Speaker 5 (23:55):
I love that film and Liberia and I'm watching the
film and you're dealing with child soldiers and like so
many levels of tragedy.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
You you were a VIP security in Africa.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
So that was after so I was. I actually done
a tour of duty in sarah Leone when I was
in the rural Marines. So the private security stuff came
after due to the contact that I made in sarah Leone.
So I was out there in two thousand and five,
two thousand and six doing a short term training team,
(24:32):
so teaching them elite jungle warfare tactics basically. You know,
it's sarahly onions a great people. They've got a wonderful
country full of minerals, you know, very rich, but just
very corrupt unfortunately. But their military are great. And when
(24:52):
I left the military, I got a phone call from
the Attorney General saying, you know, we are now part
of NATO. Can you can you come and train our
first ever snipers to deploy to Somalia. So I took
that contract on straight away. So I trained their first
ever snipers in Seraly and I trained three batches of
(25:13):
them to send over to Somalia. So that's where that's
sort of when I left the military, I went straight
into sort of like a government military job anyway, So
that was my role in serah Lyone. But what a
great country, great people, and it is my favorite country
in the world.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
Yeah, what was it like working with NATO compared to
what you were used to? You know, given there's a
lot of red tape as far as NATO's concerned.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Do you know what being a private contractor is great,
but you haven't got the top cover. You know, you
haven't got the top cover of the military, especially the
special forces. You know, the missions that we've done were
so highly kinetic and dangerous but safe at the same
time because you know, above me, I had two apaches.
The gunship, I had a fixed wing, that's it. I
(26:02):
had two drones I had you know, I could cool
him fast air. Whenever I wanted, I could call in
the apaches to take out and neutralize a direct target,
you know, so they were constantly at our disposal. When
I left the military, that top cover just went You're
al yeah, you're almost out there by yourself. So even
though I'm training these these these soldiers that the I
(26:28):
am the top cover. You know, it's it's a whole
different world and you don't feel unsettled by it, but
you know, you're out there by yourself.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
Says Australia. Yeah, it's a fantastic show. First question someone
that we're very close to, Sam Burgers. Sam Burgers, how
could Sam burge How long would it take? Sam Burgess,
do you think or to become a Special Forces.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
He'd have to shrink his head first, because he is
a sniper's dream. And talk about American sniper. I could
hit that head from two k from the hip. You
(27:15):
know what when he when he got stuck in the tube,
it was his shoulder that got stuck. It was his head.
I remember just looking through in his bolder heat. Now,
do you know what someone like Sammy is? Do you
know what?
Speaker 3 (27:29):
It is?
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Disciplined. That's what differentiates us, the British Special Forces from
from the rest. Is not that we've got no different weapons,
no different tech. It's just the the attention to detail
through being consistently disciplined at a level where that grain
of rice is out of place, that that that is outplay.
(27:53):
You know, that is so finicky and you're you're you're
sort of acted from such a young ages as the
military in general. And then what I didn't realize when
I joined the Marines is that I was being pushed
down the special Forces route due to my potential, et cetera,
et cetera. But the attention to detail that we have
(28:14):
and the minor details and the psychological work that we do,
which you know is the biggest, best kept secret of
the United Kingdom Special Forces is way beyond what anyone
else does.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
Well.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
You see, like from sporting background, particularly Sam, you see
sporting teams always draw on military for inspiration above for lessons,
like we used to do army camps when I was
at the Melbourne Storm. And the biggest lesson you take
from is when and it's actually hard in today's society,
pushing pushing players and pushing people past a breaking point,
(28:52):
like you know, for safety reasons. But back in those days,
particularly Sam would have experienced when you push someone so
far beyond a breaking point, the less you take from yourself,
like the lessons you learn about yourself. When Sam went
on that show, you can see that's a bloke who's
just done. He's had so much work, particularly psychologically, so
mentally resilient. Like that bleeds through the TV, like the
(29:13):
whole audience sort of could notice that.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Mate.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
I got in his face as well. I was calling
him a big headed more on and you fucking perfetic,
you have failed this course. And I was spitting in this,
you know, because I was just waiting for a crack.
All I want, all I want from people, and I'm
not waiting for a crack in a in a in
a bullying type of way, or in a crack in
(29:37):
your personality that needs developing, right, it's got nothing to do.
I want to develop your weakness, so you know, I
don't want to play to your strength. So I know
where your strengths are. I'm happy with that. You know,
I can almost go. Do you know what? That's seventy
percent of you done. That's what I do. That's what
I do with every single recruit. I go right where
their strengths. You're happy with that, you don't need to
work on that. Where's their weaknesses, where's their insecurities? You know,
(29:59):
where where their cracks? And all I want to do
is dig into them and find the tools that they
need to develop that. And that's exactly what I was
doing with Sam. And you know, the one time that
Sam cracked is when he silly couldn't get through that tube.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
That was awful to watch. I feel claustrophobic watching it.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Let me tell you this story about this and just
quickly so we've got we start off. We we're there
two three weeks before you know doing I'm doing everything.
I'm jumping out the helicopters doing all the rehearsals, making
sure because everything we put them through we go through.
But then when the tubes came up, you know, going
through there and and you know, this is about cluster,
it's about you know, facing your fears and phobias, and
(30:44):
that one was claustrophobia. Darkness had loads of loads of
things in there. And when we first got there, there
was two big two tubes, one big tube and one
small tube. And I said to the to the producer,
I said, why have you got two tubes here? They said,
because some people are bigger than others, because I don't
want to know who's on the course at this stage.
And I'm like, well, no, that's that's you know, we've
(31:05):
got got to be one tube. It's a small tube.
And they're like, but you know, we've got some big people.
And so so I know I'll get Foxy. I go, Foxy,
come over here, and there's a bit of tube laying
down and he sort of all he does is he
he's I think he just puts his shoulders in there
and then he comes out and I said, look, fox
he's a big guy, do you know what I mean?
I said that foxy can fit in there, anyone can
feel So get rid of the big tube. We're going
(31:26):
with the small tube. So and at this stage I'm
putting people through. They're wizzing through, and then you know
these and then all of a sudden, I'm thinking to myself,
I'm thinking, God, Sam's a big guy, and I say,
I say to him, right, and I put him last
on purpose. So when he gets stuck in the tube,
the moment he he says, stuff, I'm stuck.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
I can't get through.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
I lifted up the flat, which kept it dark in there,
and I was like, what do you mean You're stuck?
But I'm not. I'm not shipping around. I'm not joking
about I am stuck. I went, I went shut the head.
I just told him to calm down. So at this stage,
my whole career is just flashing from Front Health and Safety,
you know, and Middleton kills blah blah blah. I'm thinking,
(32:13):
you know, in order to get this tube out, we're
going to have to dig it out and crane it
out and crane Sam's big fat head out of there.
So Michaels, So I left up the flat nice and cool.
When I say to him, I say number. I forgot
the number. He wasn't number twelve. I think, so number
number twelve. I said, I shouldn't be telling you this,
but do you not think that we've put someone bigger
(32:35):
than you through this fucking tube?
Speaker 3 (32:38):
All right?
Speaker 1 (32:38):
And you see him, he's looking up, he's got these
little puppy dog eyes at this day because he is
literally dying. You need for your sake now, I needed
to talk about psychological mind games, so I say to him,
and you can see something just tweaked inside of him.
And I've been stuck in it what's called smarty tube before,
(33:01):
with all my kit on it down at Limbston through
raw marine training, and all I'd done to get out,
I literally couldn't move, but I just pushed my toes.
All I've done with my toes was wo bend them
back and just inch myself inch by inch. And then
when I said that, you know, do you not think
we put it? That gave him that sense of hope,
that sense of belief right which change. I could see
it in his eyes. I could literally And then when
(33:23):
I told him the technique to push with his toes,
he'd done that for about forty five minutes until I
could reach in grab his hand and sort of put
him out of the tube. And then obviously my career
came flourishing back to me. O. Yes, but that was
that was the moment that I thought to myself, Ah,
you know, this is where you know claustaphobia, tight spaces,
This is a fear and phobia.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
It's funny when the human mind, when the human mind
knows see someone else to or knows someone else has
done It's like the form minute mile that hadn't been cracked.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Someone cracked someone training in air lock. Yeah, it can't
be done.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Yeah, I mean, I think they stripped all the oxygen
out of the day when I was doing it. But
when somebody, you know, somebody breaks the formulut, my people
think it's not possible. And then I think, within twelve months,
like another three or four people did it. Just the
belief of someone doing it.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
But he's purely psychological, you know, Mattie, when you look
at it, it's purely psychological. And that's what I say, you know,
when that's why we demonstrate everything I go wrong. I'm
going to tell you this once once only watching to
the demonstration. We're going to explain it once it's over
to you and that we do it, and they go, right,
it can be done, and then it's a case of right,
(34:31):
he's done it his way, how do I do it
my way? So then then there's that, and then there's
like if I do it my way, do I trust myself?
Speaker 4 (34:39):
You know?
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Am I capable of doing this? All this self doubt
comes in that you put on yourself. And this is
the interesting psychological aspect of the show. And this is
why I love love doing it because when you it's
so much more when I first started out there, like
the production cup, just do a boot camp, you know,
just no, no, no, no goes so much, don't you know,
(35:03):
don't belittle me, you know, don't don't don't you go
so much deeper than this. And then when you Sackly
see it, like you said, you thought you in that tube,
you thought that's what the show's about.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
You're right now the other the other end of the
uh spectrum on that show, that series, which I actually
had done, be too hard because actually I think towards
the end he really redeemed himself and you saw the
dooms he was battling. Was Mark phillipursas. But the bit
that I still laugh when they're all about all the
(35:33):
contestants are about to go into into the water a
swimming challenge. I forget exactly what it was, but everyone's
got their their gear and they go, okay, is it
one ready? And Phils go, can I just say something?
What he goes, I've just got a sandwich in my bag,
is aye gon plastic bag that I could rap it.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
I love it when things are because normally it's one
of the other dsque They wouldn't dare say it if
I was if I was running the stance. So normally
it's one of the other ds running it, you know.
And so and I'm in the background of my ears
prick up and I'm just like step aside. And that's
what I love about it as well, you know, And
people say, you know, and are you like this in
(36:13):
real life? You screaming?
Speaker 4 (36:14):
I'm like, no, this this is this is the the
the disciplinarian military instructor, you know, I dealt this is
why the all the instructors are so different. You know.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Olie's got a softer approach. Foxes, you know, more of
a sort of sit back, take it all in person,
I'm in your face, you know, up your rs as such,
because I dealt well with that in the military, when
I had a military instructor that was on my ass
telling me if I didn't get to the front of
the group, they were going to kick my head in,
that he was going to, you know, pummel me in
after this, and you know, how dare you know? And
(36:47):
he's in my my ears ringing. I reacted well to that.
That's that's that's what made me actually go, I don't
want this guy on my ass, you know, and I'd
get to the front of the group. Where some people
don't deal well with that. Some people you know more
of a right. You know, you're better than this. You
know you've old you've let yourself down, and you've let
the team down, exactly, you let your family. So that's
(37:11):
that's that's why I do it, because that's how I
reacted well in the military. So all I'm doing is
reciprocating what worked for me, and then then then that
might be your time to step in and go right,
that's not working for him. This is where Foxy steps in,
This is where Olie steps in.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
Coop said before all the things that you've done and experienced.
Yet you're a great judge of character when when you
when you're seeing it straight away, when the contestants comes
through one by one, can you go they're going to
make it? They're not, do you know? Straight away? Get instinctively,
you know, straight away.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
I know within the and that's why we thrash them.
And they're probably giving it away a little bit here.
But it's a technique that we use, which is called
when we process them, you know, when we strip them
down and we give them their numbers and we give
them you know, there's a whole reason behind that. We're
not just you know, basically stripping them from being a
civilian and sort of into into a military individual. I'most
(38:06):
assessing absolutely. That's why give my main brief and I
step back from that, because I can just tell by
their demeanor, by the way they're looking around, you know,
by the by you know, by their gates, by the
by the way they're holding themselves, if they're disciplined, I
can tell if they're if they're here for the right reasons.
I can tell if they're if they're committed to the
to the cause, if they if they're just going to
(38:28):
you know, surrender themselves to the process. I can tell
that within the first five minutes, just by someone. You know.
It's just like I can just tell and those people
that are just there listening in, taking it all in,
doing their own stuff at the beginning, because that's what
you do. You want to do your own ship to
make sure that you're squared away in that processing phase
because nothing teamwork about it. It's like, right, he's telling
(38:50):
me how to act, he's telling me how to dress,
he's telling me how to I need to do things.
Can I take that in from day dot and then
from the very first command thereafter? I know who who who?
The people that are there for the right reasons.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
Right society. And do you think do you think generation
by generation we are getting.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Softer, softer physically, yes, but we're getting way more savvy.
You know, you look at Special Forces selection right now,
the the you know, you just had to be a hard,
hard guy, do you know, I mean resilient. You know,
you put your house on your back, you know, travel
(39:29):
over the mountains, you know, pick up a weapon, be
safe with it, get into a firefights. Endurance, resilience and hardship.
Once you got through that you know, yeah, you know,
you're a hardened soldier. Well, now it's a lot more technical,
it's a lot more tactical, it's a lot more tech savvy,
shall we say so, I would say that the caliber
(39:53):
of individuals now moving with the modern world actually suit
it quite nicely. But when it comes to the resilience
and and the hardship and the hard you know, it's
that is lacking.
Speaker 4 (40:08):
You know.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
So there's got I like, I like the balance between
the two. But then you look at the world, you think,
you know where we headed, you know, are we going
to ever ever need to suffer such hardships ever? Again?
You know, you talk about modern day warfare, it's drones, buttons,
it's technical, it's it's it's tech savvy, it's you know,
(40:28):
boots on the ground. Yeah, boots on the ground, which
is always always needed for that, you know, for that
sort of clarified intel picture. But the way the world's going, yes, softer, definitely.
But but I think we're I think the younger generation
are moving in the right direction.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
And I feel sorry sometimes for young men, you know,
because a lot of words get thrown around these days.
One that is so overused by people the hero and
work is toxic masculinitly right now, I get it. I know,
I know a toxic masculinity is right, I know, but
just but I've seen situations where a person has saved
(41:06):
someone and they've gone out and said, oh, it was
all about there. It's toxic masculinity, and I just think
it does my fucking head in. Yeah, I just I
cannot believe it. It's like, okay, you know all those
people believe in toxic masculinity, but what about if someone
breaks into your house he's got a gun and you
(41:27):
require believe or not, like you know, I just say it,
but a male to actually help you.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
Yeah, no, absolutely, mate, listens, that's just a word I think. Well,
I know it's just a fad. You know, lots of
things have come into play, and you know, all of
a sudden they're non sustainable. You know, it's like toxic
what you know, being too masculine, being too you know,
that's non non sustainable. That's a fad that that's come
in and it will die out like like all the
(41:53):
other fads have over the last few years. I don't
take any notice of it. And at the end of
the day, when you know, yourself. You know, I know
that I'm a good man. Yes, I've got I've got
faults of you know, I've got negative traits about me,
but that that's a tiny percentage of who I am.
You know, ninety percent of me is good, is compassionate,
(42:14):
is loving, is empathetic, is you know, is accepting. You know, again,
going back to being that bully with a weapon, I
know that in those moments of pure humanity, life and death,
that that that I'm a good man. You know, my
instincts are good. So as long as long as I
know that, then of course you're going to be charged.
(42:36):
Of course, people are going to jump on the bandwagon,
and it's very hard not to react to it. But
ultimately you're reacting to someone else's ideology, someone else else's
sort of thoughts and process and and I've learned and
I've learned not to do that. And that's why people say,
but myself, you know, I just stay true to who
I am. When people know me for who I am,
(42:58):
they know exactly what they're going to get, the exactly
what they're going to be they're getting themselves in for.
They know exactly that they're going to get a raw
authentic version of myself. You know, I'm not really going
to be around the version, but I'm happy to accommodate.
But then, obviously, with the media and all of these
fads coming in and out, you can they try and
fit you into a certain category. And for someone like myself,
(43:19):
it would be into that category. And I've taken a
lot of flat through it. But I'm still here, mate.
I mean, it's like, it's like, so the storm. As
long as you the storm will come over you, but
as long as you stay true to yourself and your
direction in life, that storm will pass.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
It's you talking about how you're a discipline aian because
that's what worked for you. That's your coaching style. Now,
I had to coach Craig Bellamy at the Storm. He
was very much the same that. Obviously, word for him
had brought the best out of him. So he was
like that. His favorite saying was making you, making you
comfortable with the uncomfortable. Put you in situations on the
sporting field that would be as uncomfortable as it gets,
(43:54):
and you train that so when you're out there in
those situations you feel comfortable in it. I was watching
The Accountant the other day great movie The Accountant, But
I got thinking to.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Come out of the air locker? Did you come out
of the airlocker straight into the account straight into the
account He actually thought it was a documentary.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
It was, but I was watching it and leading into
this interview, I got things I wanted to ask you,
because you are a discipline there, and you're a hard coach.
You push people hard. In that movie, Ben Affleck, who
has he plays a character as Aspergess and he's his
dad had a military background and his theory was, rather
(44:31):
than bring him up in an environment where he's nurtured,
he would push his son and put him in the
most uncomfortable situations to train his mind to be comfortable
when he was an adult in those situations. And I mean,
obviously it worked out. He was killing people by the end,
which we don't condone, not in general society, of course,
but it just it just made me, you know, I think,
(44:53):
particularly in the modern society where there is a lot
of not wanting to put people in uncomfortable city situations
to nurture them, do you think that's a bit of
a hindrance Like in some cases some cases it isn't,
But do you think putting people in those situations.
Speaker 3 (45:10):
Well, I did that for you, Cooper. Do remember I
never used to let the butler cook.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
For you, and it's to pick it up off the floor.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
And yeah, and now look at me now.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
But do you know what, Cooper, Know, You're exactly right.
Society doesn't cater for for the uncomfortable. You know, everything
is done for you. You're you're you're taught where to go,
you're controlled where to go, you're you know, you're you're
told how to act, You're you're told how to think,
especially more and more in modern day society. But I
(45:45):
always say to my children there's no growth in comfort.
And what I mean by that is I will give
my children enough rope to trip up on, but not
obviously enough rope to hang themselves hypothetically, because that's irresponsible parenting.
But I know, I know my son's headed heading into it,
and I'm just like, oh, son, you know, and I
(46:07):
could go whoa there, but I'm just like, you know,
and moments where you just go no, no, no, you know,
to to my wife, just let them figure it out.
The bomb is, you know, he's he's hit face first,
and I'm just like dragging him up and going, son,
are you're good? Right? Listen? You know? And then but
(46:28):
nine times out of ten, when you debrief your son
once or your your children or work colleague or whatever
it may be, when they've when they've taken a hard full,
they've already debriefed themselves. You know, they've already figured it
ninety percent of it. They figured it out themselves. And
all you do is you you use that small five
percent where you just point in the right direction and
(46:49):
guide and protect from the rear right, and it's just like,
oh no, he's going to hang himself in the right son,
whoa hold on? My daughter? Whoa dunn? You know, look
at this in a different way, tackle this a different way.
I can see what's coming through my life experience. And
they're the hard conversations that we have through life, right,
good a little step.
Speaker 3 (47:06):
In their own portholes sometimes finally, Mayor of London.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Oh, the Mayor of London, what do you what do
you think? Do you know?
Speaker 4 (47:20):
What?
Speaker 1 (47:20):
Mate? With the Mayor of London's When I look at
my purpose in life and what I've done and where
I've been, you know, I'm a server of people. It's
as simple as that. You know. It's when I was
in the military, I'd serve my muckers, I'd serve my country.
I'd serve you know, at the time, the Queen and
the country men and women of my country. And when
I look at everything I've done in the media, I'm
(47:42):
just serving people. And what I mean by serving people,
I'm there to help you become the best version of
who you can be. I'm there to help you identify,
you know where your fears and phobias are, and how
to overcome them, and how to be emotionally intelligent enough
and psychologically resilient enough to get through life. And so
when the Mayor of London, when the Mayor of London
(48:04):
sort of came up and my name got bantered around,
I thought to myself, do you know what you know?
I've served in the military. I'm now, you know, in
this media space where ultimately I'm still serving the people,
which I truly believe that I am when you when
you go deep into it and a career, not so
(48:26):
much in politics, because even though the Mayor of London
is a small political role, it's not which I really like.
And hence why I've been really keen to sort of
push on with it. I just think, you know, with
the state of London at the moment and the crime
and the personal safety that's there and you only have
to you know, walk the streets and see it that
(48:48):
I feel the need to serve again. And that's what
it is. Is not I live a good life, trust me,
Cooper May I live a good life. I'm happy and
my kids are happy. You know, they're thriving in life,
bouncing around the world doing my thing.
Speaker 3 (49:05):
You know.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
The last thing I believe it or not I want
to go back to England is you know it is
the rain is that is the misery of the UK.
Speaker 2 (49:15):
And if you saw in Afghanistan, I was sad. You
get the politics.
Speaker 1 (49:19):
That's exactly. So listen. It's not confirmed, but it's not denied.
It's it's something that I'm really considering with the family.
But when I left the military, I promised my wife,
which I didn't do. I promised my wife that I
put the family first. But when I was in the
military I didn't and that was for obvious reasons. But
(49:43):
now it feels like I'm going back on that promise.
If I jump into into this, well, if.
Speaker 3 (49:49):
You do get in just the reason I ask if
you do get in, I've got a few text problems.
Speaker 1 (49:54):
Haven't we all made? Haven't we all?
Speaker 3 (49:57):
You're a champion mate. We don't take any more of
your time. We really thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
Brother, thank you my man. Guys, thank you m
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