June 9, 2026 • 55 mins
To kick-off the two-part season 7 finale, Anna van Schaap (fine artist, tattoo artist, curator) sits down with Aaron McCall to talk about building a creative life that refuses to be small. She gets into finding her voice and claiming her space out of passion and defiance, and carving out something different for women and queer folks in an industry with a history of the opposite. They talk about art history, women in art created by women in art, and the cost of going all in on something you were told wasn't for you. It's about volition, visibility, and holding hope and tragedy at the same time.
Keep up with Anna van Schaap:
annavanschaap.com
IG: @theother_twistedsister
IG: @theother_twistedsister_tattoos
IG: @theother_twistedsister_photos
Creative Mornings Grand Rapids
Monthly lecture series. Everyone's creative and everyone's welcome. Find your local chapter.
Merchants & Makers
West Michigan artists, makers, and small businesses. Shop local with food trucks and live music.
——
This episode is supported by:
Creative Mornings Grand Rapids
Merchants & Makers
——
Writer/Producer/Editor/Host:
Aaron McCall
aaronmccall.net
IG: @aaron_mccall
——
Co-Host/Sidekick/Photographer:
Joe Matteson
themattesons.co
IG: @joe_dustin
——
Music:
"Noises" by Mike Mains & The Branches
——
Support the Podcast:
Buy Merch
——
Follow Bad Idea Social Club:
badideasocialclub.com
IG: @badideasocialclub
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:37):
I don't need to even read the name.
Like I know when a man ispainted an image of a woman
because I'm like, women don'tlook like that.
Um, nobody's boobs look likethat.
If you've ever actually seen afucking pair of tits, that's not
what it looks like.
SPEAKER_03 (00:51):
You're part of hearing all these noises in my
head.
I can't see them go away.
SPEAKER_02 (01:12):
Nice, dude.
Thanks.
Yeah, I am I am sexy dirty rightnow.
SPEAKER_01 (01:19):
And aware.
SPEAKER_02 (01:20):
Yeah, very much so.
Hey everybody, welcome back toBad Idea Social Club.
My name is Joe Madison.
SPEAKER_01 (01:27):
And I am Aaron McCall, and we are in the home
stretch.
This is going to wrap up seasonseven, but don't worry, we have
an episode this week and nextweek.
This one's a two-parter.
Because I so I sat down withartist, tattooer, curator,
photographer, Anna Van Scott.
(01:47):
And you know, like I try to keepthese uh, you know, like about
an hour, give or take.
You know what I mean?
Like after all the editing, andblah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Joe, she didn't have anything Icould cut, man.
SPEAKER_02 (02:00):
That's amazing.
That's amazing.
SPEAKER_01 (02:02):
Yeah.
So I'm I'm really, really stokedabout this conversation.
Um Anna has spent the last 14years building something in
Detroit that is genuinely unlikeanything else.
She paints, she tattoos, shecurates, she uh uh she shoots
protest photography for um theNational Press uh Photographers
(02:24):
Association.
And uh she does all of it withthis like ferocity that is uh
hard to describe until you likehear her talk about it.
And Anna is one of those peoplewho was told no early and often,
and somehow uh it just kind oflike made her more in.
(02:45):
Like she bought in and she bitdown even harder.
And uh I think her work kind ofspeaks for itself because it's
um it's brutal, it's beautiful,it's unapologetic, and it's uh
alive.
Um and so we got into uh arthistory and why women need to
see uh images of women createdby women.
(03:11):
Um yeah, no, I know.
Um we talked about the cost ofbuilding a creative life uh when
you were told it wasn't for you,and carving out something safe
in an industry that has a longhistory of misogynistic fucking
bullshit.
And you know, there's there's aversion of hearing you don't
(03:32):
belong here that makes peoplekind of back off, retreat, kind
of question the space they'retaking up.
But there is this other versiontoo where where when somebody
gets told no enough times andthey just decide to build the
whole fucking thing themselves,um Anna is one of those people.
And and I don't know, I think Ithink I am too.
(03:54):
I think you are too.
SPEAKER_02 (03:56):
I hope so.
I hope so.
What I will say is that I hopeso much so and hope I'm
instilling in my daughter thatthat's who she is.
It's like I want that convictionin things that she believes
where it's like you're not gonnatell me anything.
SPEAKER_01 (04:10):
God, I love that.
I uh I don't want to waste abunch of time.
So let's just let's just getinto this one.
Um part one with uh AnnabanScott.
Here you go.
SPEAKER_00 (04:22):
So much hair.
Just like a fucking maneeverywhere I go.
All right.
Are these for boys' heads?
I feel like this is no They'readjustable.
Okay, what am I doing?
SPEAKER_01 (04:33):
Yeah, you just just push it down.
Yeah, they're they're extendedall the way.
SPEAKER_00 (04:39):
I'm like, damn, you have big-headed people on this
podcast.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (04:43):
You have no idea.
SPEAKER_00 (04:44):
I'm just kidding.
Hello.
You're like big heads and egosis actually the uh other name
for it.
That fits.
I'm here for both.
I have well, I have a normalsize head, but I've got a decent
ego.
SPEAKER_01 (04:58):
Well, you got a lot of cats.
SPEAKER_00 (05:00):
I have a lot of cats.
SPEAKER_01 (05:01):
I want to like we'll we'll get to the art stuff, but
like I want to talk about thecats first.
SPEAKER_00 (05:05):
Full deep dive into the cats is like a great intro.
Um, so I actually just had theone for like 10 years.
He's truly his name's Baby.
He's named after the old movieBringing Up Baby, Catherine
Hepburn, Carrie Grant.
If you haven't seen it and youlike old movies, absolutely go
watch that.
It's one of the absolute bestand the better Hepburn, as far
as I'm concerned.
Uh, because she was a baddie anda badass and a feminist too.
(05:28):
But um, yeah, there's like aleopard in this movie, uh, like
a genuine, like back when theyused to just like not CGI stuff.
Like, oh, also, can I swear?
Because I almost was like shit.
I have a bit of a potty mouth,I'm not gonna lie.
But um, yeah, and it's such agreat little old movie.
And um, but yeah, so the leopardlike gets loose and like wreaks
havoc.
(05:48):
It actually is a pet in themovie, but it like goes and does
its thing.
SPEAKER_01 (05:51):
It's like really old.
SPEAKER_00 (05:52):
Yeah, it's like black and white.
SPEAKER_01 (05:53):
Like Cat the Rebecca, carry girl, like I know
what you're talking aboutbecause it's in the public
domain now.
Yes.
So when I was putting togetherthe intro for our um for this
podcast, for like, you know,because this is our first season
that we're doing video.
I was looking at some likeinteresting stuff and like it
come up.
SPEAKER_00 (06:10):
It did come up.
SPEAKER_01 (06:11):
I was like, I was scrolling through it trying to
find some interesting footageand stuff like that.
I ended up leaning on a lot ofcartoons, but like so cute.
SPEAKER_00 (06:16):
That is literally what the love of my life is
named after Baby the Leopardfrom bringing up baby, because
he's a little bangle, so he'sgot little leopard spots.
Um, but yeah, he was like myonly child.
He truly like I have a wonderfulpartner, and he doesn't mind me
saying it.
Like, this cat is the love of mylife.
This is like my true and honestto God soulmate.
I am deeply convinced, and we'lltalk about it whenever anyone
(06:39):
will listen, that this littlecreature, like in a past life,
was like a gay 17th centurydandy.
And we very much had the samerelationship we have now where
like everything is his and Ijust like live to serve him.
Like, yes, no, like he very muchlike I obviously was like one of
the favorite servants back inthe 17th century.
Like, I was the beloved one thathe you know turned to for love
(07:02):
and guidance because he wasn't,you know, raised with love by
his own parents.
Like, I am that.
So we have had I I it's a weirdfeeling before I even really
knew I actually believed aboutlike life, death, past lives,
like whatever it is, however wooyou want to get about it.
I very literally had theweirdest feeling when I held
(07:25):
this tiny creature in my handsfor the first time.
I had I distinctly rememberfeeling like I know this little
thing.
And I've never had like we'veyou know, I grew up with a house
full of pets.
My dad and his brothers actuallyowned uh small mom and pop pet
stores right here in GrandRapids.
It was called the Pet Shop,Curious World.
Um, they had about, you know, atthe height, they had like seven
(07:46):
stores.
So I grew up with just animalseverywhere.
I grew up in pet stores.
I like animals are a huge partof my life.
I think when you're like aweird, odd child that um doesn't
know how to always relate topeople in a normal way, like
animals are a go-to for peoplethat are just sort of on the
fringe of norm normalcy becauseanimals are just unconditional
(08:08):
love.
SPEAKER_01 (08:08):
Well, and they're and they're objectively better
than people.
I've said that a thousand times.
SPEAKER_00 (08:12):
Yeah, yeah.
Because they just they don'thave the malice that is in
inside some people, you know,for sure.
But anyway, so this littlecreature, love of my life, he is
going on 14, and that's thehardest thing to talk about.
But he's so healthy and he'sdoing great.
Um, but yeah, then a coupleyears ago, um I had a pregnant
(08:35):
mama cat show up at my house.
Uh, her name is Beef.
She's like the mom of my colony.
I love that name.
Well, it comes from because she,um, even though she was like
starving and pregnant and aferal, I would like feed her and
she refused to eat beef flavoredfood.
And I'm like, ma'am, you arestarving to death.
I love that you're still a pickybitch.
(08:56):
Um, so I call her Beef becauseshe's also just a tiny, like
seven-pound little thing.
She's so tiny.
So calling her like beefy ishilarious to me.
But she gave birth to twokittens, and that was
unfortunately also the samespring and summer that my dad
got very, very ill.
So I was more or less likeliving back in Grand Rapids
because he was in and out ofhospitals like over and over and
over.
(09:16):
And we can get into that laterbecause I did actually end up
losing him.
But um, so these kittens werealways on my mind, and I was
returning back to Detroit likeevery like every other weekend
or whenever when I could getback, you know, check on the
house, da-da-da.
Like baby was coming home withme.
So, and I didn't have any othercats at the time.
But beef and these kittens werealways on my mind, and then my
(09:37):
dad actually ended up passingaway.
And unfortunately, also mygrandmother had passed six weeks
before my dad.
So my mom lost her husband andher mother all in one.
The family, we were just one ofthe worst times of my life, and
um, so I ended up staying for amonth, like just at my mom's
here in Grand Rapids after thatall happened, because we also
(09:58):
had two funerals we had to plan,and um uh, and then so anyway, I
was it's like a month had goneby, and I'm like, I have to go
back to Detroit.
I have to go back to my lifeessentially.
I've like abandoned my life atthis point.
Um, and I, you know, I'm drivingback and I'm on my way home,
(10:18):
turning down the street, and Ijust immediately burst into
tears because I think like deepdown I wasn't really ready to be
home on my own, away from mymom, away from my sister, away
from family.
Um, like I wasn't ready to goback to life as normal, you
know, because it's not normalanymore.
No, it's not normal anymore.
It's like one of the people thatmade you who you are no longer
exists, so it's nothing will benormal again.
(10:40):
But um, I and the kittenscrossed my mind.
I was like, I wonder if they'restill around.
And I literally pulled into thedriveway, and these two little
shits are just sitting in thedriveway, like, what up, girl?
Isn't that kind of the bestthough?
A hundred percent.
Because I'll tell you what, mydad's two love languages were
animals and gifts.
He was not always the mostexpressive person, he wasn't
(11:01):
always the greatest at, youknow, being like, I love you,
kid, I'm proud of you.
He showed it in his own way, buthe loved giving gifts and he
loved animals.
And I knew instantaneously inthat moment that that was my
dad's final gift to me.
He left these two kittens for mebecause I really did.
I struggled for the next severalmonths to like get out of bed
to, you know, and and but therewere several days where I'm
(11:27):
like, nope, you gotta get upbecause you gotta go check on
the kittens, especially thelittle girl.
She was pretty sick, she hadlike a bad upper respiratory.
So she'd like wait on the porchfor me every morning and I'd go
down and I'd like to clean herlittle snotty face off and give
her, you know, meds and food.
And so there were days wherelike I really was struggling.
Like, I don't know how to getup, I don't know how to do this
(11:47):
today.
But what got me up was thesethat I like I knew I had to go
feed these little kittensoutside, and um they you know,
they'd just be like sittingthere waiting for me, and I
would sit out, and this was now,you know, end of August, D
beginning of September.
So it was still pretty niceweather, and I'd just like sit
outside in the fresh air withthe kittens in the sun, play in
the driveway, and yeah, sorry,my rings work.
(12:10):
Um, and that was that.
That's how these two kittensbecame mine.
So their mom, beef, she stilllike stuck around, but she like
she got them to about eight, 10months and was like, okay, I'm
gonna go now.
These are yours.
And I was like, um, Mam, pleasedon't get your children.
And she's like, No, you got it,girl.
Yeah, you're a beef now.
Um so she still come, you know,she was still coming by every
(12:34):
couple of days, but she verymuch was like, I don't need to
raise these kittens anymore.
And I think it was also a veryteen mom situation, like, oh,
like babies having babies overthere.
Um, so I yeah, the and then thelittle girl cat, um, their names
now are chicken and shrimp.
Because the little girl, she'sso tiny, she's like six and a
half pounds, and then chicken isliterally afraid of everything,
(12:56):
like he's afraid of his ownshadow, truly.
Um, so their names are veryfitting, they're a little
chicken and shrimp.
Um, but uh yeah, she ended upshrimp getting ended up getting
like quite a bit sicker quickly,and I ended up making the
decision to take them inside.
So they're now in with me.
But beef step kept you knowcoming around, so I kept feeding
her, and Detroit has a horrificferal cat population problem.
SPEAKER_01 (13:18):
Like dogs too.
SPEAKER_00 (13:19):
Dogs too, absolutely.
But I think the like feral catpopulation is somewhere between
like 60 and 70,000 feral cats inthe city of Detroit alone.
We're not talking metro, we'retalking the city, because
there's no real programs forlike TNRing and like cats just
breed with each other andkittens on kittens and kittens
on kittens.
So anyway, you put food out,you're gonna get cats.
(13:42):
So, end of a very long story.
I now am the mother of anoutdoor colony of like four
regulars.
Beef ended up getting herselfknocked out one more time,
little slit.
SPEAKER_01 (13:52):
Classic beef.
SPEAKER_00 (13:53):
Classic beef.
Um, and then uh uh she did endup having a couple kittens, and
then I got all those guys spayedand neutered when everybody was
old enough.
And but now still, like everyseason, I put up food and like
another one shows up, anotherone shows up, another one shows
up.
So I have just consistently beenspaying, neutering cats right
(14:14):
and left, and then the kittenswhen I, you know, they're very
easy to find homes for, and it'slike oh, one last baby on the
street.
So like I think I'm up to likefive or six rehomed kittens now,
two rehomed adults, and then myso this just kind of happened to
you.
Yeah, yeah.
In the last it's not even beenfour years, but yes, like well,
(14:35):
beef showed up four years ago,but like I officially guess
became a colony caregiver atlike about three and a half-ish
years ago now.
SPEAKER_01 (14:43):
And then I might be I might be hitting you up
because I I miss having a cataround here.
Oh my god, I really do.
I think it's been I think it'sbeen two years since Daphne
passed away.
And she was I mean, she wassixteen, seventeen, something
like that.
Um huge bitch.
SPEAKER_00 (14:59):
Like we love a savvy bitch.
SPEAKER_01 (15:01):
Hated everybody but me, which I kind of love.
SPEAKER_00 (15:03):
Oh yeah.
I mean that one animal that'slike, this is mine and mine
alone.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:09):
Yeah.
And she and and and she wasn'tlike uh like uh oh, I don't want
to be around you, so I'm notgonna come around you.
Like she would like come aroundyou and like like rub on you and
stuff, and I would always try totell people, like, this is a
trap.
SPEAKER_00 (15:22):
Yeah, don't touch the cat.
SPEAKER_01 (15:23):
Like she's she's trying to hurt you.
Uh-huh.
And everybody would always belike, Oh no, I'm the cat
whisperer.
I can and I'm like, I fuckingpromise you you're not.
Uh, but if you insist, I'll goget the band-aids.
And uh and being a big thing.
SPEAKER_00 (15:36):
Have you been to the urgent care recently?
Would you like to?
Which is also a funny storybecause I did land uh uh land
myself in the hospital twicelast year, and one of them was
actually a cat bite um from oneof my regulars.
What?
It it was totally not not hisfault, but not his fault.
Like he's a big tomcat, superpossessive, like he's a mean boy
(15:59):
to everybody but me, and I knowit.
Um, and he doesn't like othercats because he's super
territorial.
So, other than his actualchildren who are part of my
colony, two of his two of thekids are um also beefs lover.
She's at the center ofeverything, little beefer.
Um his name's Fancy.
He's named after the uh uh songFancy, which like Reba McIntyre
(16:22):
covered, and then one of myfavorite artists of all time.
Yeah, Reba is not the original.
That is a cover.
Like she she's the one known forit, but she covered that song.
The original is like youwouldn't even know the name.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:34):
You don't know the name, do you?
No, not off the top of my head.
SPEAKER_00 (16:36):
Um, but I actually didn't even know the Reba cover
because I live under a rock andyou know, like little do I leave
my house ever.
But uh I originally heard thesong because I am in love with
Orville Peck.
In love.
I mean, it would be totally meto be in love with like a gay
cowboy, but I am I am in lovewith Orville Peck.
(16:59):
Classic beef.
Classic beef.
Yeah, but so there's like youknow, the song Fancy, it's
recovered by Orville, whoobviously is a man, so when he's
singing, it takes on this wholenew like femme boy, you know,
kind of thing, and um, otherthan just being turned out to
rich men for prostitution, likethe femme boy being turned out
kind of thing.
(17:19):
Um, and fancy, the first time Iever met him, he's so pretty,
he's like a long, beautifulhaired cat.
I he and he showed up onDecember 1st, so I called him
Mariah Carey because that's whenthat bitch shows up.
Um and he's so beautiful andelegant.
I was like, Mariah Carey fitshim.
Um, and then it was like monthsin that I realized he had like a
(17:40):
huge set of balls, and I waslike, oh shit, you're a boy.
So that's where his name comesfrom.
Fancy.
Um, but yeah, anyway, so he uhwas super territorial, like the
yard, the domain, the cats, itwas his, and he didn't like um
anybody coming in.
And there's this little kitten,like little itty bitty black
kitten, uh, that I was trying tosave.
I was like trying to, you know,get him to warm up to me so I
(18:02):
could rehome him.
I did.
He's happy, he's love.
He's like with my partner's umuh cousin now, so I also get to
see him, and he's just likespoiled, rotten.
I love it.
But uh anyway, so I'm liketrying to save this little black
cat, and I've like finally gothim to associate me with like
food, you know, cut like at workgetting to the point, like I'm
gonna trap him, I'm gonna gethim inside.
(18:22):
And I go out to feed everybody,and he sees me and comes like
darting across the street.
And Fancy's on the porchalready.
And uh I like see it in slow-moin my mind, and I knew it was
just like a weird gut reactionwhere you just you don't even
know what you're doing untilyou're doing it.
But I see Fancy go like fullairplane ears, and I'm like,
(18:43):
fuck.
Oh, it's on like the back goesstraight up, the hair goes
straight up, and I'm like, shit.
He like corners this kitten, andas he's like lunging at the
kitten, and again, he's got thisis a like a 14-pound tomcat, and
we're talking like a seven-weekold, if that's a bull.
He's not a bully, just a bigboy, and he's very territorial.
So I was like, This kid, this isa death sentence, like
(19:04):
approaching.
Um, so as he lunges at this poorkitten, I uh just react and I
like grab fancy.
And he turns around and he justsinks his teeth like into my
thumb right here.
And I've never actually seen acat do this, and I swear to god,
this happened.
He fucking shook my hand like apit ball, like no shit.
(19:26):
Like he meant business.
Um, so I knew I was immediatelyin trouble because cat bites are
like instantaneous infections.
Their mouths are just so gross,and they're like little needle
teeth just like deposit umbacteria like into your body.
But it was like 11 o'clock atnight.
I'm like, I'm not going to thehospital.
Urgent care is closed.
I will go, I'm gonna wake upeight at 8 a.m.
(19:46):
and go first thing in themorning.
By the time I woke up, my handwas like a baseball mist.
SPEAKER_01 (19:50):
I was gonna say this feels like a mistake.
SPEAKER_00 (19:51):
It was a huge mistake.
I should have gone right to thehospital.
So I waited for hours at urgentcare.
Finally, they saw me.
Actually, it was a long story,but they actually had ended up
sending me to another urgentcare for an x-ray on my hand
because they were like, we haveto make sure there's no teeth in
it or whatever.
Um, they cleared me and then thedoctor came in.
He took one lookup at in thispoint, I so there's two bite
(20:12):
wounds on either side, and um,there's like two lines of red
just running up my arm, likelike continuously growing up my
arm as I'm like waiting,waiting, waiting to see the
doctors at urgent care,da-da-da.
Cause we're now it's like 1 p.m.
Like I'd basically like been onsite trying to get help by like
8, 8:30.
Um, so at this point, like thered is just now creeping up my
(20:33):
arm, and I'm like, well, that'snot good.
Um, the doctor comes in, takesone look at me, and he goes, You
gotta go to the ER.
Like, you grab your stuff, youneed to go directly to the ER.
And I'm like, okay, cool, what'sgoing on?
He's like, so though those redlines you see, that infection is
in your lymphatic system.
It is traveling up your arm.
(20:53):
And if it hits here, it goes nowstraight to your heart.
Fuck.
Like that bacteria goes straightto your heart.
We're talking sepsis, you candie from that.
So I go to the ER, I wait forabout an hour there until they
got to see me.
And they bring down like a handsurgeon specialist.
They're like looking this thingover because also I let them
know, like, hey, my hands, likemy right hand is my life.
Like, I'm an artist and a tattooartist.
(21:15):
If I don't have these things, Ihave no life.
Um, and they're like, Yep, we'regonna bring down the hand
surgeon.
They want to make sure we don'thave to like open it up and
debris it.
Oh my god, it was such anightmare.
Finally, they decided, like, I'mokay, but they're like, We're
gonna keep you overnight.
You need three rounds ofantibodies, like intravenous
antibiotics, like directly intoyour so over the course of
(21:37):
several hours, I'm watching thislike still climbing, even with
the antibiotics in my system.
And it got about here before itstarted finally receding.
But I was like, Oh my god, oh mygod, I'm going to die.
Like, you're just like watchingthe red like crawl up your
veins.
You're like, this is so bad.
And my partner, you know, Icalled him immediately, so he
stayed in the hospital with meovernight.
(21:59):
And like every couple hours,you'd be like, Let me take a
photo for the doctor.
We're just like, hey, doc, isthis okay?
He's like, You're fine.
You just need to stay on theanimal because it takes a minute
for a tour.
Yeah.
So cat bites, guys, don't playwith that.
Get help if you get bit by acat.
Don't wait on it, or you willget a nice hospital bill.
SPEAKER_01 (22:19):
Jesus Christ.
Well, let's back up a littlebit.
SPEAKER_00 (22:21):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (22:22):
Let's back up a little bit.
Um, I feel like to understandwhere you're at with your work,
I feel like I want to go all theway back.
SPEAKER_00 (22:27):
Oh boy.
Okay.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (22:28):
So just what kind of kid were you?
How'd you grow up?
SPEAKER_00 (22:31):
Well, I grew up right here in Grand Rapids,
Michigan, eight minutes awayfrom where we are recording this
right now.
unknown (22:37):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (22:38):
Very funny.
Um, and uh I will say, you know,people are like, oh, how long
have you been an artist?
Or like, you know, um, forever,like truly forever.
SPEAKER_01 (22:48):
Was it was it serious forever?
SPEAKER_00 (22:50):
I yeah, I I honestly, yes, because I was the
kid that you could veryliterally leave with a coloring
book and like a set of crayons,and you would find me there
hours later.
Like, I that's what I wanted todo.
I just wanted to draw and color.
Um, you know, I remember likegoing out to restaurants.
There was like a restaurantright on 28th Street.
(23:11):
It's called the Ground Round,and you know, close to our
house.
We went there often when we did.
They had free popcorn.
Um, and they had theseplacemats, and my uh, we walk in
and we went there enough thatlike I think they kind of knew
us.
So they'd give me two placematsthat I would just turn over and
they'd give me a box of crayons,and I would just sit like quiet
as a mouse.
Both my sister and I, she wasalso very, very artistically
(23:34):
talented.
Um, and uh, you know, both myparents worked full-time.
Um, so like summer times we hadbabysitters, and um, to my
parents' massive credit, I thinkparticularly and especially my
mom, because I'm not sure howinvolved in the decision making
my dad was with that, but my momreally truly uh did her due
(23:55):
diligence to find babysittersthat would do arts and crafts
with us.
Like we had one who we wouldlike go to her house for the
day, my sister and I, and shehad two girls both roughly
around our age, and like we didso many crafts with her.
Like we would have like anactivity every day that we would
do.
And then as we got a little bitolder, um, you know, my mom I uh
(24:16):
hired, it was like her boss'sdaughter, I guess, was like, you
know, teenage, late teenage, solooking to do babysitting.
And she would, I mean, we woulddo all sorts of just fun craft
things, and that I can genuinelysay I was a pretty unhappy
teenager.
I definitely had it, I thinkthings were rough.
(24:37):
Um, and I don't think I like fitin very well as a young person
because I'm I was odd.
I'm not, you know, now it's likepeople love that.
They're like you're quirky,you're unique, and people love
the uniqueness, but everythingabout when you're younger, it's
all about fitting in.
And I didn't, and I didn't knowhow to, I like didn't understand
that.
So um, for me it was just likeanimals and coloring were my two
(25:00):
happy places, and animals arejust making things, like craft
anything, like anything at all.
And then my mom did actually putmy sister and I into like a
little summer program for artstuff, like where we started
really learning the basics, likeskills, like not just like you
like doing this, but let's learnsome foundational skills.
(25:20):
Um, and I do remember though Istarted getting, I'm two years
younger than my older sister,and I started getting a little
bit better than her quitequickly.
And so my sister always says,like, you know, I probably would
have been an artist, but becauseI was growing in my skills, she
was like, I had to go findsomething else to do because
(25:41):
like I couldn't do somethinglike my little sister's outdoing
me.
SPEAKER_01 (25:45):
She didn't feel like she was, or she couldn't, she
felt like she couldn't keep up.
SPEAKER_00 (25:48):
Yes, yeah, or just like yeah, I don't know.
We also, my sister is one of myfavorite people in the world,
but we are very literally nightand day, polar opposites, like
have nothing in common, don'tlook alike.
Like if she, you know, likes up,I like down.
If she likes left, I like right,you know, it's just like I don't
know how we ended up sodifferent, like morally and
(26:09):
ethically, chorally, we're verysimilar, but just like how we
approach life.
We could not have taken twodifferent approaches.
And so I think there is likesome oppositional thing in us
that like if one did something,the other had to do something
opposite, and because I havevery clearly staked some kind of
claim on art, she was like,Well, fuck that, you know.
(26:30):
So she she uh, you know, hasmentioned before and has gotten
on me before, like, oh yeah, Iprobably would have, you know,
maybe had some career or life inart because she runs, she was
very talented.
I mean, half the reason I thinkI loved art is because she did
art and like you're the littlesister, so you want to be cool,
like big sister, and do what bigsister does, and she liked art,
so I like art, but um, and thenit became one of those things.
(26:52):
I it it's funny, and I've talkedabout this before, how we end up
doing the things that we do.
Because I think a lot of timespart of it is passion and
interest, part of it is skilland talent, and part of it is
also the way that peoplecelebrate how you do things.
And I got a lot of accoladesvery early on from, I mean, I
(27:13):
can remember as early as likekindergarten first grade, like
having art teachers be like,shh, this is there's some
exceptional skill keel here.
And um I think you know, whenyou're young and you are looking
for validation and you arelooking for your place,
especially when you're a weirdoand don't really know what that
place is.
(27:33):
Anytime someone says, like, youknow, has any kind of validation
for what you're doing, howyou're doing it, celebratory of
your anything that you have tooffer, you lean more heavily
into it.
So I also think it's a a part ofthis like puzzle piece of how I
came to be is I had a lot ofreally great art teachers along
(27:54):
the way that just really pushedand celebrated and made sure
that I understood, like, youknow, what you have to offer is
rare and exceptional.
Keep going, keep pushing, keepbeing interested in this.
You have the passion for it, butit was really the first thing I
can ever remember in my lifewhere someone was like, you are
exceptional.
(28:15):
You are exceptional.
SPEAKER_01 (28:16):
What a feeling too.
SPEAKER_00 (28:17):
Yeah, and it, yeah, and you so of course you lean
into it when people are like,you are exceptional.
And and that's to say, like, youknow, I went on later in life
and was like, oh, I, you know,it was fairly exceptional on a
lot of things, but I grew up,you know, I went to City High
School here in Grand Rapids,which is like, I think at the
time I went there, it was trulyranked like the 13th best high
(28:39):
school in the country.
Like my peers, we were allnerds.
We were all just like like sointelligence was just like what
was around me.
I didn't realize like, oh, youare exceptionally intelligent
because everyone around me wasthat level.
Like that's what I was, youknow, you start there at like
seventh grade, and most of thekids actually started in one of
(29:00):
the uh two schools, Blandford orZoo School.
Uh so I went to Zoo School,which fed directly into City
Middle, which then became CityHigh.
So it was like a literal sevenstraight years of just being
around exceptionallyintellectual young folk.
Also very rare.
Yes, very rare.
So I didn't realize, like, oh,your brain is half of your
(29:21):
superpower.
It's not just your talent, it'show you think about things
because everyone around me, Iwas like, I'm just average, I'm
a normal person.
And then you go out in the worldand you're like, like, oh shit,
I'm dope.
Yeah, so brain, brain, brain.
Got it, got it, got it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:35):
But God, I love that.
So if we fast forward a littlebit, um your your work has this
and I mean this in the in the inthe most whatever, fucking.
SPEAKER_00 (29:46):
I've heard it all.
I've heard it all.
SPEAKER_01 (29:47):
Your work has this like brutality to it.
SPEAKER_00 (29:49):
Yeah, oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:50):
I fucking love that.
SPEAKER_00 (29:52):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (29:52):
I I I can tell you what I feel when when I when I
see it, but like I want to knowabout where you're coming from.
I want to know about it.
SPEAKER_00 (30:00):
Let's hear what you feel first.
Because I feel like when I thensay where I'm coming from,
people are like, oh, okay, thatchanges, maybe this or that.
So I personally also think likeas an artist, understanding how
other people interpret what youcreate is half of your process
because it can actually bemisunderstood or misinterpreted.
(30:21):
So having other people's inputis wonderful.
SPEAKER_01 (30:24):
So I see I think I think the first thing I see is
is and I'm obviously projecting,I'm putting my own experiences
on it.
Yeah, let's hear it.
Um I'm seeing pain, right?
And I'm seeing uh like like theword uh bruised kind of comes to
mind.
And but I'm also seeing strengthand power and a certain level of
(30:47):
hey, go fuck right off in it.
SPEAKER_00 (30:50):
Okay, that's pretty accurate.
I mean there's nothing in therethat I I don't think fits.
Um, and especially I would saythe body of work that I am most
known for, that shows the most,that like, you know, I saw a lot
of prints of that people seem tobe drawn to the most, um, was
definitely made during one of, Iwould say, like the darkest
(31:13):
periods of my life.
And uh, you know, truthfully, Ihave lived through some very
horrible things.
Um, I've had horrible thingshappen to me.
I've had people do horriblethings to me, um, which is I
think the story of most womenwhen you really ask them about
their experiences in this worldand um but uh I and I I
(31:35):
definitely want to couch thatand like every experience is
unique, but I think that thereis a certain brutality you walk
away from um having livedthrough a lot of these
experiences that women do, um,and also living through by proxy
a lot of these experiences.
Like even if you are a womanlucky enough to not have had
(31:55):
some of these horrific thingshappen to you, you know women
that have like you are you havebest friends, sisters, mothers,
aunts that have survived a lotof um horrific things.
Um, so you you still live it ina way, even if you haven't like
embodied um having to survivecertain things.
But um yeah, I um actually I soI will say there's been several
(32:19):
periods in my life that werevery dark and gruesome.
Um, but uh this was this body ofwork that I made, I think that
you were probably referring tobecause it's my most well-known
and it has sort of those umdescriptors to it.
Uh it was made during a time Ithink I can now look back on and
(32:40):
say, I was just so unhappy.
Like I just I was in arelationship with a person who
was like a true to formemotionally abusive narcissist
who was just um that's the hardthat's the stuff that's hard to
talk about because when youfinally sort of become who you
want to be as a person and youstart embodying like the
strength of who you are, uh it'svery hard for me to talk about
(33:04):
that period because I'm like thethe woman I am today would be
like no fucks given, you are notwelcome in my life.
Like I would never put up withwhat I did, but I was young, I
was impressionable, I was verybroken by the world, very broken
by a lot of things that havehappened to me.
I was looking for love andvalidation in really wrong ways
and sources, and you know,unfortunately, also with
(33:25):
narcissists, they seebrokenness, they're so good at
identifying it and um andexploit it, and exploiting it,
and they also don't presentthemselves as a narcissist,
right?
It was like years into thisrelationship before the mask
really started slipping, andyou're now years in.
I'm now in my you know, mid tolate 20s, and it's like you've
invested already so much timeand energy, and you just keep
(33:47):
thinking like, and that is theinsidiousness of narcissism, is
they are so capable of blamingyou.
Like you are doing somethingwrong.
You, it's because of you I'macting in this manner, blah,
blah, blah.
So you're just like, I I what ahorrible person I must be.
That like my favorite person inthe world is now, you know,
become this monster, like, andbut you know, then you're on the
(34:12):
other side of it one day and youlook back and you're like, Oh,
it's crazy, because likeeveryone he ever had a
relationship felt that way andsaid that way about him.
Like, there's a problem here,there's a common denominator,
and it's not you, baby.
Yeah, um, so yeah, I was with aperson that just like in every
way, shape, or form, um, hefound someone that he thought
(34:33):
was like broken, but also verystrong, very intelligent, very
self-possessed, very confident.
And he spent the next likefive-ish years breaking that to
pieces.
And I was shattered by the endof that relationship.
I was just like a shell of aperson that um I had to rebuild,
and that work is literally um abig part of it.
That's how you rebuild, right?
(34:54):
It's through the work.
Yeah, and I think that's whythere's like so much
devastation, so much umbrutality, so much pain in the
work, but also the power, thestrength, the vitality.
Um, and along the way, also.
So, one thing I will alwaysadvocate for I'm gonna backtrack
a little bit, uh, because I liketo talk about this when I'm
given the opportunity.
The one thing I think artistsfail at doing is recognizing
(35:18):
being a fine artist truly as acareer.
It's the only career I can thinkof off the top of my head where
like you don't have to um doyour due diligence to learn your
career in order to be a part ofit.
Where people are just like,well, I have a vision, I make
art, blah, blah, blah, but theydon't know art history, they
don't understand art history.
They like uh to me, it's like adoctor walking in, like, yeah,
(35:41):
I'm gonna take your appendanceout.
I've never done that before, butlike, I, you know, I'm really
good with a scalpel.
So um, I don't see it as anydifferent.
And and that's to me thedifference between a fine artist
who is operating as career, fineartists, and someone who loves
art, makes art, it's part oftheir craft, it's a part of
(36:03):
their passion, it's a part oftheir hobbies.
And you can have unbelievablytalented hobbyists, but a fine
artist is a career like anythingelse.
It involves, you know,marketing, it involves image, it
involves work, it involvesselling, it involves like it,
it, it's a whole, it's a wholecareer.
And we don't make enoughdistinctions when we talk about
it.
And for people that haveaspirations to have a career in
(36:24):
the fine art world, the onething I feel uh that I see
lacking every time is aunderstanding of the history of
the craft.
Um like literally not evenhaving a basic art knowledge.
Like when you're like you bringup, you know, let's talk about
constructivism, let's talkabout, you know, how that came
out of post-industrialization.
You know, like they don'tunderstand that art is a
(36:46):
reflection of the periods inwhich those um movements came
about.
It reflected what was going onin the world around them, or it
was a reaction to it, you know,like dataism coming on the back
of constructivism because it wasa reaction to industrialization
and this need to like want toexperience humanity again.
(37:07):
And, you know, I think right nowwe are in a re-emergence of sort
of Renaissance era art, likepainting, da-da-da, because
everyone is acting like um, youknow, post they want to
re-they're reacting to thisdigitalized world.
They want to get back to thebasics of fine art, like
everything that has nothing todo with the digital world,
(37:28):
because everyone's so just sickof being inundated with AI and
digitalness and you know, theremoval that the hu the human
removal that is sort ofincorporated into the
digitizing.
SPEAKER_01 (37:39):
Literally getting your hands dirty.
SPEAKER_00 (37:41):
Yes, literally getting your hands dirty.
Um so you're seeing like are-emergence of painting and um
like film photography and justthings where you're like, yeah,
you're in the chemicals, you'rein the muck, uh the gritty
stuff.
The gritty stuff.
And anyway, so um I I love arthistory.
I love it.
I'm an actual art history nerd.
(38:02):
It's one of the degrees I dohave.
And um my favorite era, likeabsolute favorite era, and all
of the artists that have comelike as major influences to me
really come from likepost-Renaissance, Baroque era.
So you had the Renaissance,which has, you know, so many of
the artists I love and admire,but piggybacking off of the
(38:23):
Renaissance, like the imageryyou saw in the Renaissance when
you're talking from an arthistorical standpoint, is these
very um uh these veryobjectified views of women.
Like women were actually objectsin paintings.
The artists were men, theartisanships that were available
were for men, it was images ofwomen painted by men for men to
(38:48):
be purchased and looked at.
It was, and these women veryliterally, it is the definition
of objectification.
They were truly turned intoobjects for voyeurship, for like
looking at and liking.
Um, they had like everythingabout images from the
Renaissance, like these women,there's so much passivity to
them that there is almost a lackof humanity because there is a
(39:08):
lack of volition involved.
And I love the Broke era becauseit takes some of the most
beautiful elements of theRenaissance, but it put volition
back into the body.
And it also started bringing inthe introduction of these really
badass women artists and menthat also worked with these
women artists and like, youknow, taught these women
artists, and like were obviouslyinfluenced by their take on the
(39:31):
world, and um like, you know,one I love to talk about, and
I'm so excited.
It's been like I would say thelast 10 years, she has had this
like massive re-emergence.
Her name is Gentilici, um, andshe is, you know, sort of listed
a little bit as a contemporaryof Carvaggio, although she
actually didn't train directlyunder Carvaggio, but someone
associated in his circle, andCarvaggio is one of my favorites
(39:51):
as well.
Same.
SPEAKER_01 (39:52):
Have you been to the museum in Rome?
SPEAKER_00 (39:54):
I have not.
I've never been to Rome.
It's fucking awesome.
It is not about it.
SPEAKER_01 (39:58):
I was losing my mind when I was in there.
SPEAKER_00 (40:00):
I believe it.
SPEAKER_01 (40:01):
I still And it's just in like it's just in like a
small building in a park.
SPEAKER_00 (40:05):
Yeah, but that's like the some of the best.
That's when you're just like youwalk in, you're like, what?
SPEAKER_01 (40:09):
I know.
I was I was losing my fuckingmind.
SPEAKER_00 (40:12):
Um, my favorite museum I've ever been to, uh,
Amsterdam, the Rijksmuseum,where like the hall of
essentially, you know, the mostfamous Dutch painters, including
one of my favorites, Rembrandt,like the master of light.
No one has ever painted lightthe way that he does, no one
ever will again.
Just and standing in front oflike the Night's Watch painting,
which is I don't actually knowthe dimensions, but I'm not
(40:34):
exaggerating.
And I say I think it's like 30by 30 feet, maybe bigger.
It's just, it's a wall.
It's a painting.
Like I've never understood.
You look at these images andbooks your whole life until you
stand in front of them.
And I like cried.
I cried in front of thatpainting because it was so
overwhelming to see it inperson.
Um, but it was also sooverwhelming because, you know,
(40:56):
again, this is a little bitwhere like ego comes in because
I actually don't think at thetime I saw that I was quite
where I like creatively am ortech tech technical skill am
now.
But I remember being like, mywork isn't that far off from
being able to exist here.
Now I think I was a little fullof myself when I actually
thought that.
So I could also be very full ofmyself today.
But ego is also a part I thinkof an art.
(41:18):
Like everyone your whole lifewill tell you, like, like, okay,
good luck.
You're probably not gonna makeit.
So somebody's gotta believe inyou.
So you have to be the firstperson that, like, in almost a
unabashedly silly way, like, I'mgonna make it.
I'm gonna be the one in amillion, because no one else is
gonna tell me.
SPEAKER_01 (41:37):
Not this blow of smoke, but I think you belong
there.
SPEAKER_00 (41:39):
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
But yeah, so um, anyway,Gentileci, going back a little
bit on my diatribe here, uh, shewas a contemporary in circles
with Carvaggio, but she um, herfather also was a very famous
broke painter and um ended upworking as uh an apprentice
(42:00):
under a contemporary of herfather's.
And this man, very famously, andthis is like all documented,
this isn't just hearsay, likethis is in Italian documents you
can look at today.
Um, he raped her, and um, shevery famously took him to court
and fought him, which is notsomething you did at the time.
Like, and um the whole court uhproceeding is documented.
(42:23):
You can read it all, where theyliterally like did things that
were basically forms of torture.
Like they would they put her inum something called a thumb
binder where they just likescrew into your thumb because
they were like like trying toget her to admit that she's
lying because they assume likeif I torture you and torture you
and torture you, you'lleventually break and be like,
I'm lying, I made it up.
(42:44):
And she was like, break myfucking thumbs.
Like, I'm I did not make thisup.
This man did this to me.
Um, and so very, very famously,if not infamously, he they the
court actually found in herfavor and was like, Yeah, we he
did this to you.
Immediately, because he was afamous painter as well.
Um, the Pope sent for him tocome do some kind of like
(43:06):
fresca, mural, whatever at theVatican at the time.
And he was like shipped out,never ever received, even though
the court found him guilty,never received a single form of
punishment for what he did toher.
And she was like a child at thetime, by the way.
She was like 16 or 17 when hedid this, and he was like a
40-year-old man.
Um, so pedophilia goes back way,way before, way before current
times, guys.
SPEAKER_01 (43:27):
Um by the way, my my laugh was out of discomfort.
SPEAKER_00 (43:30):
Of course, of course, of course.
Yeah, just a bit.
Um, but uh yeah, so um the endof the story, which is like one
of my I think about herconstantly, and one of the
reasons, other than she is sotalented, like one of the most
insanely talented, you know, uhuh Italian painters of her time.
(43:51):
Um she super infamously paintedum the scene of Her Fernes uh
beheading uh Samson.
I think it's Samson, I might besaying that wrong, but um
anyway, it's an extremely famousbiblical scene.
I'm not up to date on my Bible,so sorry if I'm like quoting
that wrong, but it's a veryfamous biblical scene where um,
(44:12):
you know, a woman from the Biblelike beheads a man um in service
to it's the one where the bloodis just fucking gotchak.
And um what she did was paintherself as the woman with the
sword and painted her rapist asthe man that she beheaded.
So she literally gets to beheadher rapist for the rest of human
(44:35):
time.
When I tell you that's a baddie.
Okay.
Um, so that's what I mean when Isay, and that is obviously an
extreme example of it, but whenI say like the Baroque era put
volition back into the femmebody that like the Renaissance
never had.
And I feel so deeply inspired byum the humanization of these
(44:56):
women in that way, that theyliterally had agency.
Like it asks the viewer toreframe their relationship with
how they look at these.
There's no, it's not avoyeurship.
Like they are like almostostentatiously looking back,
like judging the viewer, judgingthem in such a direct and really
(45:18):
meaningful way that there ishumanity in the soul again in
those paintings.
SPEAKER_01 (45:22):
So so what do you think happens when that
perspective uh comes from awoman in 2026?
SPEAKER_00 (45:28):
Uh everything, which is why I'm such a huge advocate
for um the necessity to havemore female artists.
Like obviously, points of viewacross, you know, every gender,
race, background, ideas,religions, like we need it all.
But again, from an arthistorical standpoint, we have
(45:48):
left women out of theconversation, more or less, for
all of art history.
Like, still today, um, thisstatistic might have changed
because this was from a coupleyears ago.
Um, so it might have gottenbetter or worse, honestly.
But um, as of like not eventhree, four years ago, women
like uh women made up about 75%of all graduating MFAs in this
(46:12):
country.
So master's of fine artsdegrees.
These are people who arepursuing art at its highest
level.
You are pursuing it as a careerwhen you are going and actually
getting your master's in yourfine art and fine art.
Um, so they made up about 75% ofwomen trying to be professional
artists in the world.
They were less than 14% ofgallery and museum represented
(46:34):
artists.
Less than it was like 13.8%.
So it's not a lack of talent,it's not a lack of desire, it's
not a lack of ambition, it's alack of opportunity.
Because women don't get thatopportunity.
Still, we still live in a worldwhere it we are talking about
mass amounts of inequity, andwhen it's very hard sometimes to
talk about that because we seethe world around us and it's not
(46:56):
like good men, good people areactively engaging in inequity
across the board or doing thingsthat actually harm women, but we
still live in a world wherethose opportunities are majorly
disparative.
And the opportunities that aredoled out to women are given to
women that still are operating alot of times in the same
(47:18):
patriarchal norms where theytheir work is very much either
an uh exploitation of otherwomen or an exploitation of
themselves.
Like the work I see, you know, Iwalk into a gallery and like the
amount of just like boobseverywhere, and it's like men.
Oh my god, you can just like Idon't need to even read the
name.
Like, I know when a man ispainted an image of a woman
(47:40):
because I'm like, women don'tlook like that.
Um, nobody's boobs look likethat.
If you've ever actually seen afucking paired tits, that's not
what it looks like.
So a man painted that, and hepainted it after watching too
much porn.
Um, but it is like the there'sjust like one, the bodies are
too perfect, and two, there's nosoul in the woman, and you just
(48:01):
know that it was a man thatpainted it because he has no
idea what it feels like toembody being a woman in this
world.
And that's why women need to seeimages of themselves as painted
by themselves, because they needI think we need the reference
point as women to understandourselves and how the
collectively we see each other.
Like there's been so much changefor women in the last 10 years,
(48:23):
and it's because women are now,we have platforms to
communicate, to talk to eachother, to share ideas and
realize, oh, we're not alone.
And I think, you know, whenyou're talking about a portrait,
a portrait of someone is notjust an image of them recreated.
It is the evocation of thatperson if you do it well, if you
do it the right way.
(48:44):
It is not just an imagerepresentation, it is an
evocation of who they are.
And I don't really believe in myheart of hearts that a man can
truly understand, can trulypaint a woman in her in her
fullness without understandingwhat it is to be a woman in this
world.
It is the pain, it is the agony,it is the, you know, I use this
(49:08):
line when I like um submit to uhgrants, whatever's um a lot.
So forgive me if you've everheard me say this before,
because I do re-reuse andrecycle, be kind.
Um, but uh I think to be a womanis truly to hold hope and
tragedy and simultaneity.
And you don't know what that'slike unless you are literally
(49:29):
operating on that fence lineevery day, which is where women
come from.
And I think women, you have tofeel it in order to make it.
Um otherwise, there is somethinghollow about the recreation of
these images by men.
So we need more women, we needmore mint women painting images
of women, of womanhood, of thepain, of the tragedy, of the
beauty, of the strength, of the,you know, put volition into the
(49:52):
body and let it exist in theworld.
And the more conversations wehave around actual
representations of women, themore we talk about the things
women don't talk about, the morewe platform um what women have
been through, what women have tosay, what women think, what
women feel.
And that's when things in theworld change.
That's how artists become, youknow, ciphers of the world
(50:13):
around them.
You take what is happening inthe world, you cipher it through
your body and you make somethingwith it from your own idea of
what's going on.
And um, that's how you changepeople's viewpoints because it
you can't understand what it isto be something until you know
it's placed in front of you andyou can see it in its wholeness.
And still you just have toaccept, like, or you have to see
(50:34):
it and be open to accepting likethat's what it is to be a woman,
or you know, as a white woman, Ihave to accept from women of
color like what it is to be awoman of color in this world.
Because I don't know.
Like I I have I I like deeplyjust want to constantly surround
myself with these images becauseI will never understand that.
I can understand the difficultyof womanhood, but I can't
(50:56):
understand the the the dualitydifficulty of being women and
women of color in the world.
SPEAKER_01 (51:02):
Yeah, well it's you know, it's it's the the only
perspectives that like weretruly afforded are our our own.
SPEAKER_00 (51:09):
Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent.
A hundred percent.
And it's so strange to me thatso many people in the world want
to live in that singularperspective, that you are so not
just happy, but actually likeaggressively intent on remaining
in that one understanding of theworld around you when the world
(51:30):
around you is so big and sobeautiful and has so much to
offer, but what's being offeredis other people's ideas about
being alive, what they think,their beliefs, their how they
love, how they live.
Like that's what it is to behuman.
Why do you want to like cutyourself so short?
And why are you so adamant ondoing it in such a hurtful,
(51:52):
hurtful way?
Like you're hurting yourselves,you're hurting others.
Like, what is this?
Why you such a small life?
SPEAKER_01 (51:58):
Everywhere.
It's everywhere, it's everywhereyou turn, and I feel like every
fucking day.
SPEAKER_00 (52:03):
Every day.
It's like a diluge we're livingthrough right now, just hit in
the face constantly with terror,horror.
I think everyone's exhausted.
I talk about it so you know,often with my clients on a
day-to-day basis.
We make jokes, but I don't thinkanybody's really joking about
like tattoos.
When they come in for tattoos,it's also like a bit of therapy.
(52:24):
But really, I think it's just aspace where they feel safe to be
like, I'm not okay, and to havethat validated.
Because I will absolutely belike, you shouldn't feel okay.
I think people walking aroundlike everything's honky doy
right now, like something'sfundamentally wrong with you if
you are okay right now.
SPEAKER_01 (52:39):
When somebody sits down with you, like like they're
handing you their trust.
SPEAKER_00 (52:42):
Oh my god.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It is um I everyone assumes Iwent into tattooing because it
it's like an art form that youcan make money on, you can live
on, you know, you you get to useyour your creative skills.
Uh, and that's not wrong, thatit's very rare as a fine artist
(53:04):
to also have a you know everydayjob as well, where you get to
directly use the skills thatbring you joy and happiness.
But what actually is the numberone thing that like makes
tattooing um just light my hearton fire is spending every single
day, like day to day, with somany amazing people.
(53:26):
Like I get to do a job where Iget to actually make art and I
get to hold people hostage forlike four or five hours and pick
their brain and get to know themas a person and connect with
them.
Um, I've walked away from thisbusiness, you know, it's been
three-quarters of a decade now.
And uh I like by the hundredsnow know so many people, like
(53:49):
regulars that just come back andI've like watched their lives
grow.
I have watched them get married,have children, like buy a house.
Like it's just so extraordinaryto watch the life that comes in.
Um, but it also is such a sacredform of trust where someone is
like, I'm giving you permissionto literally alter my body in a
way that is a forever thing.
(54:10):
But also I want to go back tothat.
So just let's bookmark thatbecause I have a really
interesting, I think, take onlike the foreverness of
tattooing at from an oilpainter's perspective.
Um, but uh yeah, so just like inthis very forever, or at least
forever in this lifetime way,and um the fact that again, I
it's it's hard because there'sonly so much you can talk about
(54:34):
it for before people sort oflike tune out to it.
Um, but how men in the industryhave absolutely beyond abused
that right, abused that trust,abused that privilege.
SPEAKER_02 (54:47):
All right, this feels like a really good spot to
take a breather.
Um, we'll put a pause on it forright now.
We'll come back next week withpart two of this conversation,
and we'll get the completion ofthe story.
SPEAKER_03 (55:02):
I can't even make them go away.
SPEAKER_01 (55:06):
Bad Idea Social Club is an independent podcast made
possible by Merc Sales, Reviews,and Listener Support.
And it's created and hosted byme, graphics and call, and
co-hosted by photographerGilMatter.
Music is noticed by Mike Mateand the branches.
I don't need to even read the name.
Like I know when a man ispainted an image of a woman
because I'm like, women don'tlook like that.
Um, nobody's boobs look likethat.
If you've ever actually seen afucking pair of tits, that's not
what it looks like.
SPEAKER_03 (00:51):
You're part of hearing all these noises in my
head.
I can't see them go away.
SPEAKER_02 (01:12):
Nice, dude.
Thanks.
Yeah, I am I am sexy dirty rightnow.
SPEAKER_01 (01:19):
And aware.
SPEAKER_02 (01:20):
Yeah, very much so.
Hey everybody, welcome back toBad Idea Social Club.
My name is Joe Madison.
SPEAKER_01 (01:27):
And I am Aaron McCall, and we are in the home
stretch.
This is going to wrap up seasonseven, but don't worry, we have
an episode this week and nextweek.
This one's a two-parter.
Because I so I sat down withartist, tattooer, curator,
photographer, Anna Van Scott.
(01:47):
And you know, like I try to keepthese uh, you know, like about
an hour, give or take.
You know what I mean?
Like after all the editing, andblah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Joe, she didn't have anything Icould cut, man.
SPEAKER_02 (02:00):
That's amazing.
That's amazing.
SPEAKER_01 (02:02):
Yeah.
So I'm I'm really, really stokedabout this conversation.
Um Anna has spent the last 14years building something in
Detroit that is genuinely unlikeanything else.
She paints, she tattoos, shecurates, she uh uh she shoots
protest photography for um theNational Press uh Photographers
(02:24):
Association.
And uh she does all of it withthis like ferocity that is uh
hard to describe until you likehear her talk about it.
And Anna is one of those peoplewho was told no early and often,
and somehow uh it just kind oflike made her more in.
(02:45):
Like she bought in and she bitdown even harder.
And uh I think her work kind ofspeaks for itself because it's
um it's brutal, it's beautiful,it's unapologetic, and it's uh
alive.
Um and so we got into uh arthistory and why women need to
see uh images of women createdby women.
(03:11):
Um yeah, no, I know.
Um we talked about the cost ofbuilding a creative life uh when
you were told it wasn't for you,and carving out something safe
in an industry that has a longhistory of misogynistic fucking
bullshit.
And you know, there's there's aversion of hearing you don't
(03:32):
belong here that makes peoplekind of back off, retreat, kind
of question the space they'retaking up.
But there is this other versiontoo where where when somebody
gets told no enough times andthey just decide to build the
whole fucking thing themselves,um Anna is one of those people.
And and I don't know, I think Ithink I am too.
(03:54):
I think you are too.
SPEAKER_02 (03:56):
I hope so.
I hope so.
What I will say is that I hopeso much so and hope I'm
instilling in my daughter thatthat's who she is.
It's like I want that convictionin things that she believes
where it's like you're not gonnatell me anything.
SPEAKER_01 (04:10):
God, I love that.
I uh I don't want to waste abunch of time.
So let's just let's just getinto this one.
Um part one with uh AnnabanScott.
Here you go.
SPEAKER_00 (04:22):
So much hair.
Just like a fucking maneeverywhere I go.
All right.
Are these for boys' heads?
I feel like this is no They'readjustable.
Okay, what am I doing?
SPEAKER_01 (04:33):
Yeah, you just just push it down.
Yeah, they're they're extendedall the way.
SPEAKER_00 (04:39):
I'm like, damn, you have big-headed people on this
podcast.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (04:43):
You have no idea.
SPEAKER_00 (04:44):
I'm just kidding.
Hello.
You're like big heads and egosis actually the uh other name
for it.
That fits.
I'm here for both.
I have well, I have a normalsize head, but I've got a decent
ego.
SPEAKER_01 (04:58):
Well, you got a lot of cats.
SPEAKER_00 (05:00):
I have a lot of cats.
SPEAKER_01 (05:01):
I want to like we'll we'll get to the art stuff, but
like I want to talk about thecats first.
SPEAKER_00 (05:05):
Full deep dive into the cats is like a great intro.
Um, so I actually just had theone for like 10 years.
He's truly his name's Baby.
He's named after the old movieBringing Up Baby, Catherine
Hepburn, Carrie Grant.
If you haven't seen it and youlike old movies, absolutely go
watch that.
It's one of the absolute bestand the better Hepburn, as far
as I'm concerned.
Uh, because she was a baddie anda badass and a feminist too.
(05:28):
But um, yeah, there's like aleopard in this movie, uh, like
a genuine, like back when theyused to just like not CGI stuff.
Like, oh, also, can I swear?
Because I almost was like shit.
I have a bit of a potty mouth,I'm not gonna lie.
But um, yeah, and it's such agreat little old movie.
And um, but yeah, so the leopardlike gets loose and like wreaks
havoc.
(05:48):
It actually is a pet in themovie, but it like goes and does
its thing.
SPEAKER_01 (05:51):
It's like really old.
SPEAKER_00 (05:52):
Yeah, it's like black and white.
SPEAKER_01 (05:53):
Like Cat the Rebecca, carry girl, like I know
what you're talking aboutbecause it's in the public
domain now.
Yes.
So when I was putting togetherthe intro for our um for this
podcast, for like, you know,because this is our first season
that we're doing video.
I was looking at some likeinteresting stuff and like it
come up.
SPEAKER_00 (06:10):
It did come up.
SPEAKER_01 (06:11):
I was like, I was scrolling through it trying to
find some interesting footageand stuff like that.
I ended up leaning on a lot ofcartoons, but like so cute.
SPEAKER_00 (06:16):
That is literally what the love of my life is
named after Baby the Leopardfrom bringing up baby, because
he's a little bangle, so he'sgot little leopard spots.
Um, but yeah, he was like myonly child.
He truly like I have a wonderfulpartner, and he doesn't mind me
saying it.
Like, this cat is the love of mylife.
This is like my true and honestto God soulmate.
I am deeply convinced, and we'lltalk about it whenever anyone
(06:39):
will listen, that this littlecreature, like in a past life,
was like a gay 17th centurydandy.
And we very much had the samerelationship we have now where
like everything is his and Ijust like live to serve him.
Like, yes, no, like he very muchlike I obviously was like one of
the favorite servants back inthe 17th century.
Like, I was the beloved one thathe you know turned to for love
(07:02):
and guidance because he wasn't,you know, raised with love by
his own parents.
Like, I am that.
So we have had I I it's a weirdfeeling before I even really
knew I actually believed aboutlike life, death, past lives,
like whatever it is, however wooyou want to get about it.
I very literally had theweirdest feeling when I held
(07:25):
this tiny creature in my handsfor the first time.
I had I distinctly rememberfeeling like I know this little
thing.
And I've never had like we'veyou know, I grew up with a house
full of pets.
My dad and his brothers actuallyowned uh small mom and pop pet
stores right here in GrandRapids.
It was called the Pet Shop,Curious World.
Um, they had about, you know, atthe height, they had like seven
(07:46):
stores.
So I grew up with just animalseverywhere.
I grew up in pet stores.
I like animals are a huge partof my life.
I think when you're like aweird, odd child that um doesn't
know how to always relate topeople in a normal way, like
animals are a go-to for peoplethat are just sort of on the
fringe of norm normalcy becauseanimals are just unconditional
(08:08):
love.
SPEAKER_01 (08:08):
Well, and they're and they're objectively better
than people.
I've said that a thousand times.
SPEAKER_00 (08:12):
Yeah, yeah.
Because they just they don'thave the malice that is in
inside some people, you know,for sure.
But anyway, so this littlecreature, love of my life, he is
going on 14, and that's thehardest thing to talk about.
But he's so healthy and he'sdoing great.
Um, but yeah, then a coupleyears ago, um I had a pregnant
(08:35):
mama cat show up at my house.
Uh, her name is Beef.
She's like the mom of my colony.
I love that name.
Well, it comes from because she,um, even though she was like
starving and pregnant and aferal, I would like feed her and
she refused to eat beef flavoredfood.
And I'm like, ma'am, you arestarving to death.
I love that you're still a pickybitch.
(08:56):
Um, so I call her Beef becauseshe's also just a tiny, like
seven-pound little thing.
She's so tiny.
So calling her like beefy ishilarious to me.
But she gave birth to twokittens, and that was
unfortunately also the samespring and summer that my dad
got very, very ill.
So I was more or less likeliving back in Grand Rapids
because he was in and out ofhospitals like over and over and
over.
(09:16):
And we can get into that laterbecause I did actually end up
losing him.
But um, so these kittens werealways on my mind, and I was
returning back to Detroit likeevery like every other weekend
or whenever when I could getback, you know, check on the
house, da-da-da.
Like baby was coming home withme.
So, and I didn't have any othercats at the time.
But beef and these kittens werealways on my mind, and then my
(09:37):
dad actually ended up passingaway.
And unfortunately, also mygrandmother had passed six weeks
before my dad.
So my mom lost her husband andher mother all in one.
The family, we were just one ofthe worst times of my life, and
um, so I ended up staying for amonth, like just at my mom's
here in Grand Rapids after thatall happened, because we also
(09:58):
had two funerals we had to plan,and um uh, and then so anyway, I
was it's like a month had goneby, and I'm like, I have to go
back to Detroit.
I have to go back to my lifeessentially.
I've like abandoned my life atthis point.
Um, and I, you know, I'm drivingback and I'm on my way home,
(10:18):
turning down the street, and Ijust immediately burst into
tears because I think like deepdown I wasn't really ready to be
home on my own, away from mymom, away from my sister, away
from family.
Um, like I wasn't ready to goback to life as normal, you
know, because it's not normalanymore.
No, it's not normal anymore.
It's like one of the people thatmade you who you are no longer
exists, so it's nothing will benormal again.
(10:40):
But um, I and the kittenscrossed my mind.
I was like, I wonder if they'restill around.
And I literally pulled into thedriveway, and these two little
shits are just sitting in thedriveway, like, what up, girl?
Isn't that kind of the bestthough?
A hundred percent.
Because I'll tell you what, mydad's two love languages were
animals and gifts.
He was not always the mostexpressive person, he wasn't
(11:01):
always the greatest at, youknow, being like, I love you,
kid, I'm proud of you.
He showed it in his own way, buthe loved giving gifts and he
loved animals.
And I knew instantaneously inthat moment that that was my
dad's final gift to me.
He left these two kittens for mebecause I really did.
I struggled for the next severalmonths to like get out of bed
to, you know, and and but therewere several days where I'm
(11:27):
like, nope, you gotta get upbecause you gotta go check on
the kittens, especially thelittle girl.
She was pretty sick, she hadlike a bad upper respiratory.
So she'd like wait on the porchfor me every morning and I'd go
down and I'd like to clean herlittle snotty face off and give
her, you know, meds and food.
And so there were days wherelike I really was struggling.
Like, I don't know how to getup, I don't know how to do this
(11:47):
today.
But what got me up was thesethat I like I knew I had to go
feed these little kittensoutside, and um they you know,
they'd just be like sittingthere waiting for me, and I
would sit out, and this was now,you know, end of August, D
beginning of September.
So it was still pretty niceweather, and I'd just like sit
outside in the fresh air withthe kittens in the sun, play in
the driveway, and yeah, sorry,my rings work.
(12:10):
Um, and that was that.
That's how these two kittensbecame mine.
So their mom, beef, she stilllike stuck around, but she like
she got them to about eight, 10months and was like, okay, I'm
gonna go now.
These are yours.
And I was like, um, Mam, pleasedon't get your children.
And she's like, No, you got it,girl.
Yeah, you're a beef now.
Um so she still come, you know,she was still coming by every
(12:34):
couple of days, but she verymuch was like, I don't need to
raise these kittens anymore.
And I think it was also a veryteen mom situation, like, oh,
like babies having babies overthere.
Um, so I yeah, the and then thelittle girl cat, um, their names
now are chicken and shrimp.
Because the little girl, she'sso tiny, she's like six and a
half pounds, and then chicken isliterally afraid of everything,
(12:56):
like he's afraid of his ownshadow, truly.
Um, so their names are veryfitting, they're a little
chicken and shrimp.
Um, but uh yeah, she ended upshrimp getting ended up getting
like quite a bit sicker quickly,and I ended up making the
decision to take them inside.
So they're now in with me.
But beef step kept you knowcoming around, so I kept feeding
her, and Detroit has a horrificferal cat population problem.
SPEAKER_01 (13:18):
Like dogs too.
SPEAKER_00 (13:19):
Dogs too, absolutely.
But I think the like feral catpopulation is somewhere between
like 60 and 70,000 feral cats inthe city of Detroit alone.
We're not talking metro, we'retalking the city, because
there's no real programs forlike TNRing and like cats just
breed with each other andkittens on kittens and kittens
on kittens.
So anyway, you put food out,you're gonna get cats.
(13:42):
So, end of a very long story.
I now am the mother of anoutdoor colony of like four
regulars.
Beef ended up getting herselfknocked out one more time,
little slit.
SPEAKER_01 (13:52):
Classic beef.
SPEAKER_00 (13:53):
Classic beef.
Um, and then uh uh she did endup having a couple kittens, and
then I got all those guys spayedand neutered when everybody was
old enough.
And but now still, like everyseason, I put up food and like
another one shows up, anotherone shows up, another one shows
up.
So I have just consistently beenspaying, neutering cats right
(14:14):
and left, and then the kittenswhen I, you know, they're very
easy to find homes for, and it'slike oh, one last baby on the
street.
So like I think I'm up to likefive or six rehomed kittens now,
two rehomed adults, and then myso this just kind of happened to
you.
Yeah, yeah.
In the last it's not even beenfour years, but yes, like well,
(14:35):
beef showed up four years ago,but like I officially guess
became a colony caregiver atlike about three and a half-ish
years ago now.
SPEAKER_01 (14:43):
And then I might be I might be hitting you up
because I I miss having a cataround here.
Oh my god, I really do.
I think it's been I think it'sbeen two years since Daphne
passed away.
And she was I mean, she wassixteen, seventeen, something
like that.
Um huge bitch.
SPEAKER_00 (14:59):
Like we love a savvy bitch.
SPEAKER_01 (15:01):
Hated everybody but me, which I kind of love.
SPEAKER_00 (15:03):
Oh yeah.
I mean that one animal that'slike, this is mine and mine
alone.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:09):
Yeah.
And she and and and she wasn'tlike uh like uh oh, I don't want
to be around you, so I'm notgonna come around you.
Like she would like come aroundyou and like like rub on you and
stuff, and I would always try totell people, like, this is a
trap.
SPEAKER_00 (15:22):
Yeah, don't touch the cat.
SPEAKER_01 (15:23):
Like she's she's trying to hurt you.
Uh-huh.
And everybody would always belike, Oh no, I'm the cat
whisperer.
I can and I'm like, I fuckingpromise you you're not.
Uh, but if you insist, I'll goget the band-aids.
And uh and being a big thing.
SPEAKER_00 (15:36):
Have you been to the urgent care recently?
Would you like to?
Which is also a funny storybecause I did land uh uh land
myself in the hospital twicelast year, and one of them was
actually a cat bite um from oneof my regulars.
What?
It it was totally not not hisfault, but not his fault.
Like he's a big tomcat, superpossessive, like he's a mean boy
(15:59):
to everybody but me, and I knowit.
Um, and he doesn't like othercats because he's super
territorial.
So, other than his actualchildren who are part of my
colony, two of his two of thekids are um also beefs lover.
She's at the center ofeverything, little beefer.
Um his name's Fancy.
He's named after the uh uh songFancy, which like Reba McIntyre
(16:22):
covered, and then one of myfavorite artists of all time.
Yeah, Reba is not the original.
That is a cover.
Like she she's the one known forit, but she covered that song.
The original is like youwouldn't even know the name.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:34):
You don't know the name, do you?
No, not off the top of my head.
SPEAKER_00 (16:36):
Um, but I actually didn't even know the Reba cover
because I live under a rock andyou know, like little do I leave
my house ever.
But uh I originally heard thesong because I am in love with
Orville Peck.
In love.
I mean, it would be totally meto be in love with like a gay
cowboy, but I am I am in lovewith Orville Peck.
(16:59):
Classic beef.
Classic beef.
Yeah, but so there's like youknow, the song Fancy, it's
recovered by Orville, whoobviously is a man, so when he's
singing, it takes on this wholenew like femme boy, you know,
kind of thing, and um, otherthan just being turned out to
rich men for prostitution, likethe femme boy being turned out
kind of thing.
(17:19):
Um, and fancy, the first time Iever met him, he's so pretty,
he's like a long, beautifulhaired cat.
I he and he showed up onDecember 1st, so I called him
Mariah Carey because that's whenthat bitch shows up.
Um and he's so beautiful andelegant.
I was like, Mariah Carey fitshim.
Um, and then it was like monthsin that I realized he had like a
(17:40):
huge set of balls, and I waslike, oh shit, you're a boy.
So that's where his name comesfrom.
Fancy.
Um, but yeah, anyway, so he uhwas super territorial, like the
yard, the domain, the cats, itwas his, and he didn't like um
anybody coming in.
And there's this little kitten,like little itty bitty black
kitten, uh, that I was trying tosave.
I was like trying to, you know,get him to warm up to me so I
(18:02):
could rehome him.
I did.
He's happy, he's love.
He's like with my partner's umuh cousin now, so I also get to
see him, and he's just likespoiled, rotten.
I love it.
But uh anyway, so I'm liketrying to save this little black
cat, and I've like finally gothim to associate me with like
food, you know, cut like at workgetting to the point, like I'm
gonna trap him, I'm gonna gethim inside.
(18:22):
And I go out to feed everybody,and he sees me and comes like
darting across the street.
And Fancy's on the porchalready.
And uh I like see it in slow-moin my mind, and I knew it was
just like a weird gut reactionwhere you just you don't even
know what you're doing untilyou're doing it.
But I see Fancy go like fullairplane ears, and I'm like,
(18:43):
fuck.
Oh, it's on like the back goesstraight up, the hair goes
straight up, and I'm like, shit.
He like corners this kitten, andas he's like lunging at the
kitten, and again, he's got thisis a like a 14-pound tomcat, and
we're talking like a seven-weekold, if that's a bull.
He's not a bully, just a bigboy, and he's very territorial.
So I was like, This kid, this isa death sentence, like
(19:04):
approaching.
Um, so as he lunges at this poorkitten, I uh just react and I
like grab fancy.
And he turns around and he justsinks his teeth like into my
thumb right here.
And I've never actually seen acat do this, and I swear to god,
this happened.
He fucking shook my hand like apit ball, like no shit.
(19:26):
Like he meant business.
Um, so I knew I was immediatelyin trouble because cat bites are
like instantaneous infections.
Their mouths are just so gross,and they're like little needle
teeth just like deposit umbacteria like into your body.
But it was like 11 o'clock atnight.
I'm like, I'm not going to thehospital.
Urgent care is closed.
I will go, I'm gonna wake upeight at 8 a.m.
(19:46):
and go first thing in themorning.
By the time I woke up, my handwas like a baseball mist.
SPEAKER_01 (19:50):
I was gonna say this feels like a mistake.
SPEAKER_00 (19:51):
It was a huge mistake.
I should have gone right to thehospital.
So I waited for hours at urgentcare.
Finally, they saw me.
Actually, it was a long story,but they actually had ended up
sending me to another urgentcare for an x-ray on my hand
because they were like, we haveto make sure there's no teeth in
it or whatever.
Um, they cleared me and then thedoctor came in.
He took one lookup at in thispoint, I so there's two bite
(20:12):
wounds on either side, and um,there's like two lines of red
just running up my arm, likelike continuously growing up my
arm as I'm like waiting,waiting, waiting to see the
doctors at urgent care,da-da-da.
Cause we're now it's like 1 p.m.
Like I'd basically like been onsite trying to get help by like
8, 8:30.
Um, so at this point, like thered is just now creeping up my
(20:33):
arm, and I'm like, well, that'snot good.
Um, the doctor comes in, takesone look at me, and he goes, You
gotta go to the ER.
Like, you grab your stuff, youneed to go directly to the ER.
And I'm like, okay, cool, what'sgoing on?
He's like, so though those redlines you see, that infection is
in your lymphatic system.
It is traveling up your arm.
(20:53):
And if it hits here, it goes nowstraight to your heart.
Fuck.
Like that bacteria goes straightto your heart.
We're talking sepsis, you candie from that.
So I go to the ER, I wait forabout an hour there until they
got to see me.
And they bring down like a handsurgeon specialist.
They're like looking this thingover because also I let them
know, like, hey, my hands, likemy right hand is my life.
Like, I'm an artist and a tattooartist.
(21:15):
If I don't have these things, Ihave no life.
Um, and they're like, Yep, we'regonna bring down the hand
surgeon.
They want to make sure we don'thave to like open it up and
debris it.
Oh my god, it was such anightmare.
Finally, they decided, like, I'mokay, but they're like, We're
gonna keep you overnight.
You need three rounds ofantibodies, like intravenous
antibiotics, like directly intoyour so over the course of
(21:37):
several hours, I'm watching thislike still climbing, even with
the antibiotics in my system.
And it got about here before itstarted finally receding.
But I was like, Oh my god, oh mygod, I'm going to die.
Like, you're just like watchingthe red like crawl up your
veins.
You're like, this is so bad.
And my partner, you know, Icalled him immediately, so he
stayed in the hospital with meovernight.
(21:59):
And like every couple hours,you'd be like, Let me take a
photo for the doctor.
We're just like, hey, doc, isthis okay?
He's like, You're fine.
You just need to stay on theanimal because it takes a minute
for a tour.
Yeah.
So cat bites, guys, don't playwith that.
Get help if you get bit by acat.
Don't wait on it, or you willget a nice hospital bill.
SPEAKER_01 (22:19):
Jesus Christ.
Well, let's back up a littlebit.
SPEAKER_00 (22:21):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (22:22):
Let's back up a little bit.
Um, I feel like to understandwhere you're at with your work,
I feel like I want to go all theway back.
SPEAKER_00 (22:27):
Oh boy.
Okay.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (22:28):
So just what kind of kid were you?
How'd you grow up?
SPEAKER_00 (22:31):
Well, I grew up right here in Grand Rapids,
Michigan, eight minutes awayfrom where we are recording this
right now.
unknown (22:37):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (22:38):
Very funny.
Um, and uh I will say, you know,people are like, oh, how long
have you been an artist?
Or like, you know, um, forever,like truly forever.
SPEAKER_01 (22:48):
Was it was it serious forever?
SPEAKER_00 (22:50):
I yeah, I I honestly, yes, because I was the
kid that you could veryliterally leave with a coloring
book and like a set of crayons,and you would find me there
hours later.
Like, I that's what I wanted todo.
I just wanted to draw and color.
Um, you know, I remember likegoing out to restaurants.
There was like a restaurantright on 28th Street.
(23:11):
It's called the Ground Round,and you know, close to our
house.
We went there often when we did.
They had free popcorn.
Um, and they had theseplacemats, and my uh, we walk in
and we went there enough thatlike I think they kind of knew
us.
So they'd give me two placematsthat I would just turn over and
they'd give me a box of crayons,and I would just sit like quiet
as a mouse.
Both my sister and I, she wasalso very, very artistically
(23:34):
talented.
Um, and uh, you know, both myparents worked full-time.
Um, so like summer times we hadbabysitters, and um, to my
parents' massive credit, I thinkparticularly and especially my
mom, because I'm not sure howinvolved in the decision making
my dad was with that, but my momreally truly uh did her due
(23:55):
diligence to find babysittersthat would do arts and crafts
with us.
Like we had one who we wouldlike go to her house for the
day, my sister and I, and shehad two girls both roughly
around our age, and like we didso many crafts with her.
Like we would have like anactivity every day that we would
do.
And then as we got a little bitolder, um, you know, my mom I uh
(24:16):
hired, it was like her boss'sdaughter, I guess, was like, you
know, teenage, late teenage, solooking to do babysitting.
And she would, I mean, we woulddo all sorts of just fun craft
things, and that I can genuinelysay I was a pretty unhappy
teenager.
I definitely had it, I thinkthings were rough.
(24:37):
Um, and I don't think I like fitin very well as a young person
because I'm I was odd.
I'm not, you know, now it's likepeople love that.
They're like you're quirky,you're unique, and people love
the uniqueness, but everythingabout when you're younger, it's
all about fitting in.
And I didn't, and I didn't knowhow to, I like didn't understand
that.
So um, for me it was just likeanimals and coloring were my two
(25:00):
happy places, and animals arejust making things, like craft
anything, like anything at all.
And then my mom did actually putmy sister and I into like a
little summer program for artstuff, like where we started
really learning the basics, likeskills, like not just like you
like doing this, but let's learnsome foundational skills.
(25:20):
Um, and I do remember though Istarted getting, I'm two years
younger than my older sister,and I started getting a little
bit better than her quitequickly.
And so my sister always says,like, you know, I probably would
have been an artist, but becauseI was growing in my skills, she
was like, I had to go findsomething else to do because
(25:41):
like I couldn't do somethinglike my little sister's outdoing
me.
SPEAKER_01 (25:45):
She didn't feel like she was, or she couldn't, she
felt like she couldn't keep up.
SPEAKER_00 (25:48):
Yes, yeah, or just like yeah, I don't know.
We also, my sister is one of myfavorite people in the world,
but we are very literally nightand day, polar opposites, like
have nothing in common, don'tlook alike.
Like if she, you know, likes up,I like down.
If she likes left, I like right,you know, it's just like I don't
know how we ended up sodifferent, like morally and
(26:09):
ethically, chorally, we're verysimilar, but just like how we
approach life.
We could not have taken twodifferent approaches.
And so I think there is likesome oppositional thing in us
that like if one did something,the other had to do something
opposite, and because I havevery clearly staked some kind of
claim on art, she was like,Well, fuck that, you know.
(26:30):
So she she uh, you know, hasmentioned before and has gotten
on me before, like, oh yeah, Iprobably would have, you know,
maybe had some career or life inart because she runs, she was
very talented.
I mean, half the reason I thinkI loved art is because she did
art and like you're the littlesister, so you want to be cool,
like big sister, and do what bigsister does, and she liked art,
so I like art, but um, and thenit became one of those things.
(26:52):
I it it's funny, and I've talkedabout this before, how we end up
doing the things that we do.
Because I think a lot of timespart of it is passion and
interest, part of it is skilland talent, and part of it is
also the way that peoplecelebrate how you do things.
And I got a lot of accoladesvery early on from, I mean, I
(27:13):
can remember as early as likekindergarten first grade, like
having art teachers be like,shh, this is there's some
exceptional skill keel here.
And um I think you know, whenyou're young and you are looking
for validation and you arelooking for your place,
especially when you're a weirdoand don't really know what that
place is.
(27:33):
Anytime someone says, like, youknow, has any kind of validation
for what you're doing, howyou're doing it, celebratory of
your anything that you have tooffer, you lean more heavily
into it.
So I also think it's a a part ofthis like puzzle piece of how I
came to be is I had a lot ofreally great art teachers along
(27:54):
the way that just really pushedand celebrated and made sure
that I understood, like, youknow, what you have to offer is
rare and exceptional.
Keep going, keep pushing, keepbeing interested in this.
You have the passion for it, butit was really the first thing I
can ever remember in my lifewhere someone was like, you are
exceptional.
(28:15):
You are exceptional.
SPEAKER_01 (28:16):
What a feeling too.
SPEAKER_00 (28:17):
Yeah, and it, yeah, and you so of course you lean
into it when people are like,you are exceptional.
And and that's to say, like, youknow, I went on later in life
and was like, oh, I, you know,it was fairly exceptional on a
lot of things, but I grew up,you know, I went to City High
School here in Grand Rapids,which is like, I think at the
time I went there, it was trulyranked like the 13th best high
(28:39):
school in the country.
Like my peers, we were allnerds.
We were all just like like sointelligence was just like what
was around me.
I didn't realize like, oh, youare exceptionally intelligent
because everyone around me wasthat level.
Like that's what I was, youknow, you start there at like
seventh grade, and most of thekids actually started in one of
(29:00):
the uh two schools, Blandford orZoo School.
Uh so I went to Zoo School,which fed directly into City
Middle, which then became CityHigh.
So it was like a literal sevenstraight years of just being
around exceptionallyintellectual young folk.
Also very rare.
Yes, very rare.
So I didn't realize, like, oh,your brain is half of your
(29:21):
superpower.
It's not just your talent, it'show you think about things
because everyone around me, Iwas like, I'm just average, I'm
a normal person.
And then you go out in the worldand you're like, like, oh shit,
I'm dope.
Yeah, so brain, brain, brain.
Got it, got it, got it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:35):
But God, I love that.
So if we fast forward a littlebit, um your your work has this
and I mean this in the in the inthe most whatever, fucking.
SPEAKER_00 (29:46):
I've heard it all.
I've heard it all.
SPEAKER_01 (29:47):
Your work has this like brutality to it.
SPEAKER_00 (29:49):
Yeah, oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:50):
I fucking love that.
SPEAKER_00 (29:52):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (29:52):
I I I can tell you what I feel when when I when I
see it, but like I want to knowabout where you're coming from.
I want to know about it.
SPEAKER_00 (30:00):
Let's hear what you feel first.
Because I feel like when I thensay where I'm coming from,
people are like, oh, okay, thatchanges, maybe this or that.
So I personally also think likeas an artist, understanding how
other people interpret what youcreate is half of your process
because it can actually bemisunderstood or misinterpreted.
(30:21):
So having other people's inputis wonderful.
SPEAKER_01 (30:24):
So I see I think I think the first thing I see is
is and I'm obviously projecting,I'm putting my own experiences
on it.
Yeah, let's hear it.
Um I'm seeing pain, right?
And I'm seeing uh like like theword uh bruised kind of comes to
mind.
And but I'm also seeing strengthand power and a certain level of
(30:47):
hey, go fuck right off in it.
SPEAKER_00 (30:50):
Okay, that's pretty accurate.
I mean there's nothing in therethat I I don't think fits.
Um, and especially I would saythe body of work that I am most
known for, that shows the most,that like, you know, I saw a lot
of prints of that people seem tobe drawn to the most, um, was
definitely made during one of, Iwould say, like the darkest
(31:13):
periods of my life.
And uh, you know, truthfully, Ihave lived through some very
horrible things.
Um, I've had horrible thingshappen to me.
I've had people do horriblethings to me, um, which is I
think the story of most womenwhen you really ask them about
their experiences in this worldand um but uh I and I I
(31:35):
definitely want to couch thatand like every experience is
unique, but I think that thereis a certain brutality you walk
away from um having livedthrough a lot of these
experiences that women do, um,and also living through by proxy
a lot of these experiences.
Like even if you are a womanlucky enough to not have had
(31:55):
some of these horrific thingshappen to you, you know women
that have like you are you havebest friends, sisters, mothers,
aunts that have survived a lotof um horrific things.
Um, so you you still live it ina way, even if you haven't like
embodied um having to survivecertain things.
But um yeah, I um actually I soI will say there's been several
(32:19):
periods in my life that werevery dark and gruesome.
Um, but uh this was this body ofwork that I made, I think that
you were probably referring tobecause it's my most well-known
and it has sort of those umdescriptors to it.
Uh it was made during a time Ithink I can now look back on and
(32:40):
say, I was just so unhappy.
Like I just I was in arelationship with a person who
was like a true to formemotionally abusive narcissist
who was just um that's the hardthat's the stuff that's hard to
talk about because when youfinally sort of become who you
want to be as a person and youstart embodying like the
strength of who you are, uh it'svery hard for me to talk about
(33:04):
that period because I'm like thethe woman I am today would be
like no fucks given, you are notwelcome in my life.
Like I would never put up withwhat I did, but I was young, I
was impressionable, I was verybroken by the world, very broken
by a lot of things that havehappened to me.
I was looking for love andvalidation in really wrong ways
and sources, and you know,unfortunately, also with
(33:25):
narcissists, they seebrokenness, they're so good at
identifying it and um andexploit it, and exploiting it,
and they also don't presentthemselves as a narcissist,
right?
It was like years into thisrelationship before the mask
really started slipping, andyou're now years in.
I'm now in my you know, mid tolate 20s, and it's like you've
invested already so much timeand energy, and you just keep
(33:47):
thinking like, and that is theinsidiousness of narcissism, is
they are so capable of blamingyou.
Like you are doing somethingwrong.
You, it's because of you I'macting in this manner, blah,
blah, blah.
So you're just like, I I what ahorrible person I must be.
That like my favorite person inthe world is now, you know,
become this monster, like, andbut you know, then you're on the
(34:12):
other side of it one day and youlook back and you're like, Oh,
it's crazy, because likeeveryone he ever had a
relationship felt that way andsaid that way about him.
Like, there's a problem here,there's a common denominator,
and it's not you, baby.
Yeah, um, so yeah, I was with aperson that just like in every
way, shape, or form, um, hefound someone that he thought
(34:33):
was like broken, but also verystrong, very intelligent, very
self-possessed, very confident.
And he spent the next likefive-ish years breaking that to
pieces.
And I was shattered by the endof that relationship.
I was just like a shell of aperson that um I had to rebuild,
and that work is literally um abig part of it.
That's how you rebuild, right?
(34:54):
It's through the work.
Yeah, and I think that's whythere's like so much
devastation, so much umbrutality, so much pain in the
work, but also the power, thestrength, the vitality.
Um, and along the way, also.
So, one thing I will alwaysadvocate for I'm gonna backtrack
a little bit, uh, because I liketo talk about this when I'm
given the opportunity.
The one thing I think artistsfail at doing is recognizing
(35:18):
being a fine artist truly as acareer.
It's the only career I can thinkof off the top of my head where
like you don't have to um doyour due diligence to learn your
career in order to be a part ofit.
Where people are just like,well, I have a vision, I make
art, blah, blah, blah, but theydon't know art history, they
don't understand art history.
They like uh to me, it's like adoctor walking in, like, yeah,
(35:41):
I'm gonna take your appendanceout.
I've never done that before, butlike, I, you know, I'm really
good with a scalpel.
So um, I don't see it as anydifferent.
And and that's to me thedifference between a fine artist
who is operating as career, fineartists, and someone who loves
art, makes art, it's part oftheir craft, it's a part of
(36:03):
their passion, it's a part oftheir hobbies.
And you can have unbelievablytalented hobbyists, but a fine
artist is a career like anythingelse.
It involves, you know,marketing, it involves image, it
involves work, it involvesselling, it involves like it,
it, it's a whole, it's a wholecareer.
And we don't make enoughdistinctions when we talk about
it.
And for people that haveaspirations to have a career in
(36:24):
the fine art world, the onething I feel uh that I see
lacking every time is aunderstanding of the history of
the craft.
Um like literally not evenhaving a basic art knowledge.
Like when you're like you bringup, you know, let's talk about
constructivism, let's talkabout, you know, how that came
out of post-industrialization.
You know, like they don'tunderstand that art is a
(36:46):
reflection of the periods inwhich those um movements came
about.
It reflected what was going onin the world around them, or it
was a reaction to it, you know,like dataism coming on the back
of constructivism because it wasa reaction to industrialization
and this need to like want toexperience humanity again.
(37:07):
And, you know, I think right nowwe are in a re-emergence of sort
of Renaissance era art, likepainting, da-da-da, because
everyone is acting like um, youknow, post they want to
re-they're reacting to thisdigitalized world.
They want to get back to thebasics of fine art, like
everything that has nothing todo with the digital world,
(37:28):
because everyone's so just sickof being inundated with AI and
digitalness and you know, theremoval that the hu the human
removal that is sort ofincorporated into the
digitizing.
SPEAKER_01 (37:39):
Literally getting your hands dirty.
SPEAKER_00 (37:41):
Yes, literally getting your hands dirty.
Um so you're seeing like are-emergence of painting and um
like film photography and justthings where you're like, yeah,
you're in the chemicals, you'rein the muck, uh the gritty
stuff.
The gritty stuff.
And anyway, so um I I love arthistory.
I love it.
I'm an actual art history nerd.
(38:02):
It's one of the degrees I dohave.
And um my favorite era, likeabsolute favorite era, and all
of the artists that have comelike as major influences to me
really come from likepost-Renaissance, Baroque era.
So you had the Renaissance,which has, you know, so many of
the artists I love and admire,but piggybacking off of the
(38:23):
Renaissance, like the imageryyou saw in the Renaissance when
you're talking from an arthistorical standpoint, is these
very um uh these veryobjectified views of women.
Like women were actually objectsin paintings.
The artists were men, theartisanships that were available
were for men, it was images ofwomen painted by men for men to
(38:48):
be purchased and looked at.
It was, and these women veryliterally, it is the definition
of objectification.
They were truly turned intoobjects for voyeurship, for like
looking at and liking.
Um, they had like everythingabout images from the
Renaissance, like these women,there's so much passivity to
them that there is almost a lackof humanity because there is a
(39:08):
lack of volition involved.
And I love the Broke era becauseit takes some of the most
beautiful elements of theRenaissance, but it put volition
back into the body.
And it also started bringing inthe introduction of these really
badass women artists and menthat also worked with these
women artists and like, youknow, taught these women
artists, and like were obviouslyinfluenced by their take on the
(39:31):
world, and um like, you know,one I love to talk about, and
I'm so excited.
It's been like I would say thelast 10 years, she has had this
like massive re-emergence.
Her name is Gentilici, um, andshe is, you know, sort of listed
a little bit as a contemporaryof Carvaggio, although she
actually didn't train directlyunder Carvaggio, but someone
associated in his circle, andCarvaggio is one of my favorites
(39:51):
as well.
Same.
SPEAKER_01 (39:52):
Have you been to the museum in Rome?
SPEAKER_00 (39:54):
I have not.
I've never been to Rome.
It's fucking awesome.
It is not about it.
SPEAKER_01 (39:58):
I was losing my mind when I was in there.
SPEAKER_00 (40:00):
I believe it.
SPEAKER_01 (40:01):
I still And it's just in like it's just in like a
small building in a park.
SPEAKER_00 (40:05):
Yeah, but that's like the some of the best.
That's when you're just like youwalk in, you're like, what?
SPEAKER_01 (40:09):
I know.
I was I was losing my fuckingmind.
SPEAKER_00 (40:12):
Um, my favorite museum I've ever been to, uh,
Amsterdam, the Rijksmuseum,where like the hall of
essentially, you know, the mostfamous Dutch painters, including
one of my favorites, Rembrandt,like the master of light.
No one has ever painted lightthe way that he does, no one
ever will again.
Just and standing in front oflike the Night's Watch painting,
which is I don't actually knowthe dimensions, but I'm not
(40:34):
exaggerating.
And I say I think it's like 30by 30 feet, maybe bigger.
It's just, it's a wall.
It's a painting.
Like I've never understood.
You look at these images andbooks your whole life until you
stand in front of them.
And I like cried.
I cried in front of thatpainting because it was so
overwhelming to see it inperson.
Um, but it was also sooverwhelming because, you know,
(40:56):
again, this is a little bitwhere like ego comes in because
I actually don't think at thetime I saw that I was quite
where I like creatively am ortech tech technical skill am
now.
But I remember being like, mywork isn't that far off from
being able to exist here.
Now I think I was a little fullof myself when I actually
thought that.
So I could also be very full ofmyself today.
But ego is also a part I thinkof an art.
(41:18):
Like everyone your whole lifewill tell you, like, like, okay,
good luck.
You're probably not gonna makeit.
So somebody's gotta believe inyou.
So you have to be the firstperson that, like, in almost a
unabashedly silly way, like, I'mgonna make it.
I'm gonna be the one in amillion, because no one else is
gonna tell me.
SPEAKER_01 (41:37):
Not this blow of smoke, but I think you belong
there.
SPEAKER_00 (41:39):
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
But yeah, so um, anyway,Gentileci, going back a little
bit on my diatribe here, uh, shewas a contemporary in circles
with Carvaggio, but she um, herfather also was a very famous
broke painter and um ended upworking as uh an apprentice
(42:00):
under a contemporary of herfather's.
And this man, very famously, andthis is like all documented,
this isn't just hearsay, likethis is in Italian documents you
can look at today.
Um, he raped her, and um, shevery famously took him to court
and fought him, which is notsomething you did at the time.
Like, and um the whole court uhproceeding is documented.
(42:23):
You can read it all, where theyliterally like did things that
were basically forms of torture.
Like they would they put her inum something called a thumb
binder where they just likescrew into your thumb because
they were like like trying toget her to admit that she's
lying because they assume likeif I torture you and torture you
and torture you, you'lleventually break and be like,
I'm lying, I made it up.
(42:44):
And she was like, break myfucking thumbs.
Like, I'm I did not make thisup.
This man did this to me.
Um, and so very, very famously,if not infamously, he they the
court actually found in herfavor and was like, Yeah, we he
did this to you.
Immediately, because he was afamous painter as well.
Um, the Pope sent for him tocome do some kind of like
(43:06):
fresca, mural, whatever at theVatican at the time.
And he was like shipped out,never ever received, even though
the court found him guilty,never received a single form of
punishment for what he did toher.
And she was like a child at thetime, by the way.
She was like 16 or 17 when hedid this, and he was like a
40-year-old man.
Um, so pedophilia goes back way,way before, way before current
times, guys.
SPEAKER_01 (43:27):
Um by the way, my my laugh was out of discomfort.
SPEAKER_00 (43:30):
Of course, of course, of course.
Yeah, just a bit.
Um, but uh yeah, so um the endof the story, which is like one
of my I think about herconstantly, and one of the
reasons, other than she is sotalented, like one of the most
insanely talented, you know, uhuh Italian painters of her time.
(43:51):
Um she super infamously paintedum the scene of Her Fernes uh
beheading uh Samson.
I think it's Samson, I might besaying that wrong, but um
anyway, it's an extremely famousbiblical scene.
I'm not up to date on my Bible,so sorry if I'm like quoting
that wrong, but it's a veryfamous biblical scene where um,
(44:12):
you know, a woman from the Biblelike beheads a man um in service
to it's the one where the bloodis just fucking gotchak.
And um what she did was paintherself as the woman with the
sword and painted her rapist asthe man that she beheaded.
So she literally gets to beheadher rapist for the rest of human
(44:35):
time.
When I tell you that's a baddie.
Okay.
Um, so that's what I mean when Isay, and that is obviously an
extreme example of it, but whenI say like the Baroque era put
volition back into the femmebody that like the Renaissance
never had.
And I feel so deeply inspired byum the humanization of these
(44:56):
women in that way, that theyliterally had agency.
Like it asks the viewer toreframe their relationship with
how they look at these.
There's no, it's not avoyeurship.
Like they are like almostostentatiously looking back,
like judging the viewer, judgingthem in such a direct and really
(45:18):
meaningful way that there ishumanity in the soul again in
those paintings.
SPEAKER_01 (45:22):
So so what do you think happens when that
perspective uh comes from awoman in 2026?
SPEAKER_00 (45:28):
Uh everything, which is why I'm such a huge advocate
for um the necessity to havemore female artists.
Like obviously, points of viewacross, you know, every gender,
race, background, ideas,religions, like we need it all.
But again, from an arthistorical standpoint, we have
(45:48):
left women out of theconversation, more or less, for
all of art history.
Like, still today, um, thisstatistic might have changed
because this was from a coupleyears ago.
Um, so it might have gottenbetter or worse, honestly.
But um, as of like not eventhree, four years ago, women
like uh women made up about 75%of all graduating MFAs in this
(46:12):
country.
So master's of fine artsdegrees.
These are people who arepursuing art at its highest
level.
You are pursuing it as a careerwhen you are going and actually
getting your master's in yourfine art and fine art.
Um, so they made up about 75% ofwomen trying to be professional
artists in the world.
They were less than 14% ofgallery and museum represented
(46:34):
artists.
Less than it was like 13.8%.
So it's not a lack of talent,it's not a lack of desire, it's
not a lack of ambition, it's alack of opportunity.
Because women don't get thatopportunity.
Still, we still live in a worldwhere it we are talking about
mass amounts of inequity, andwhen it's very hard sometimes to
talk about that because we seethe world around us and it's not
(46:56):
like good men, good people areactively engaging in inequity
across the board or doing thingsthat actually harm women, but we
still live in a world wherethose opportunities are majorly
disparative.
And the opportunities that aredoled out to women are given to
women that still are operating alot of times in the same
(47:18):
patriarchal norms where theytheir work is very much either
an uh exploitation of otherwomen or an exploitation of
themselves.
Like the work I see, you know, Iwalk into a gallery and like the
amount of just like boobseverywhere, and it's like men.
Oh my god, you can just like Idon't need to even read the
name.
Like, I know when a man ispainted an image of a woman
(47:40):
because I'm like, women don'tlook like that.
Um, nobody's boobs look likethat.
If you've ever actually seen afucking paired tits, that's not
what it looks like.
So a man painted that, and hepainted it after watching too
much porn.
Um, but it is like the there'sjust like one, the bodies are
too perfect, and two, there's nosoul in the woman, and you just
(48:01):
know that it was a man thatpainted it because he has no
idea what it feels like toembody being a woman in this
world.
And that's why women need to seeimages of themselves as painted
by themselves, because they needI think we need the reference
point as women to understandourselves and how the
collectively we see each other.
Like there's been so much changefor women in the last 10 years,
(48:23):
and it's because women are now,we have platforms to
communicate, to talk to eachother, to share ideas and
realize, oh, we're not alone.
And I think, you know, whenyou're talking about a portrait,
a portrait of someone is notjust an image of them recreated.
It is the evocation of thatperson if you do it well, if you
do it the right way.
(48:44):
It is not just an imagerepresentation, it is an
evocation of who they are.
And I don't really believe in myheart of hearts that a man can
truly understand, can trulypaint a woman in her in her
fullness without understandingwhat it is to be a woman in this
world.
It is the pain, it is the agony,it is the, you know, I use this
(49:08):
line when I like um submit to uhgrants, whatever's um a lot.
So forgive me if you've everheard me say this before,
because I do re-reuse andrecycle, be kind.
Um, but uh I think to be a womanis truly to hold hope and
tragedy and simultaneity.
And you don't know what that'slike unless you are literally
(49:29):
operating on that fence lineevery day, which is where women
come from.
And I think women, you have tofeel it in order to make it.
Um otherwise, there is somethinghollow about the recreation of
these images by men.
So we need more women, we needmore mint women painting images
of women, of womanhood, of thepain, of the tragedy, of the
beauty, of the strength, of the,you know, put volition into the
(49:52):
body and let it exist in theworld.
And the more conversations wehave around actual
representations of women, themore we talk about the things
women don't talk about, the morewe platform um what women have
been through, what women have tosay, what women think, what
women feel.
And that's when things in theworld change.
That's how artists become, youknow, ciphers of the world
(50:13):
around them.
You take what is happening inthe world, you cipher it through
your body and you make somethingwith it from your own idea of
what's going on.
And um, that's how you changepeople's viewpoints because it
you can't understand what it isto be something until you know
it's placed in front of you andyou can see it in its wholeness.
And still you just have toaccept, like, or you have to see
(50:34):
it and be open to accepting likethat's what it is to be a woman,
or you know, as a white woman, Ihave to accept from women of
color like what it is to be awoman of color in this world.
Because I don't know.
Like I I have I I like deeplyjust want to constantly surround
myself with these images becauseI will never understand that.
I can understand the difficultyof womanhood, but I can't
(50:56):
understand the the the dualitydifficulty of being women and
women of color in the world.
SPEAKER_01 (51:02):
Yeah, well it's you know, it's it's the the only
perspectives that like weretruly afforded are our our own.
SPEAKER_00 (51:09):
Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent.
A hundred percent.
And it's so strange to me thatso many people in the world want
to live in that singularperspective, that you are so not
just happy, but actually likeaggressively intent on remaining
in that one understanding of theworld around you when the world
(51:30):
around you is so big and sobeautiful and has so much to
offer, but what's being offeredis other people's ideas about
being alive, what they think,their beliefs, their how they
love, how they live.
Like that's what it is to behuman.
Why do you want to like cutyourself so short?
And why are you so adamant ondoing it in such a hurtful,
(51:52):
hurtful way?
Like you're hurting yourselves,you're hurting others.
Like, what is this?
Why you such a small life?
SPEAKER_01 (51:58):
Everywhere.
It's everywhere, it's everywhereyou turn, and I feel like every
fucking day.
SPEAKER_00 (52:03):
Every day.
It's like a diluge we're livingthrough right now, just hit in
the face constantly with terror,horror.
I think everyone's exhausted.
I talk about it so you know,often with my clients on a
day-to-day basis.
We make jokes, but I don't thinkanybody's really joking about
like tattoos.
When they come in for tattoos,it's also like a bit of therapy.
(52:24):
But really, I think it's just aspace where they feel safe to be
like, I'm not okay, and to havethat validated.
Because I will absolutely belike, you shouldn't feel okay.
I think people walking aroundlike everything's honky doy
right now, like something'sfundamentally wrong with you if
you are okay right now.
SPEAKER_01 (52:39):
When somebody sits down with you, like like they're
handing you their trust.
SPEAKER_00 (52:42):
Oh my god.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It is um I everyone assumes Iwent into tattooing because it
it's like an art form that youcan make money on, you can live
on, you know, you you get to useyour your creative skills.
Uh, and that's not wrong, thatit's very rare as a fine artist
(53:04):
to also have a you know everydayjob as well, where you get to
directly use the skills thatbring you joy and happiness.
But what actually is the numberone thing that like makes
tattooing um just light my hearton fire is spending every single
day, like day to day, with somany amazing people.
(53:26):
Like I get to do a job where Iget to actually make art and I
get to hold people hostage forlike four or five hours and pick
their brain and get to know themas a person and connect with
them.
Um, I've walked away from thisbusiness, you know, it's been
three-quarters of a decade now.
And uh I like by the hundredsnow know so many people, like
(53:49):
regulars that just come back andI've like watched their lives
grow.
I have watched them get married,have children, like buy a house.
Like it's just so extraordinaryto watch the life that comes in.
Um, but it also is such a sacredform of trust where someone is
like, I'm giving you permissionto literally alter my body in a
way that is a forever thing.
(54:10):
But also I want to go back tothat.
So just let's bookmark thatbecause I have a really
interesting, I think, take onlike the foreverness of
tattooing at from an oilpainter's perspective.
Um, but uh yeah, so just like inthis very forever, or at least
forever in this lifetime way,and um the fact that again, I
it's it's hard because there'sonly so much you can talk about
(54:34):
it for before people sort oflike tune out to it.
Um, but how men in the industryhave absolutely beyond abused
that right, abused that trust,abused that privilege.
SPEAKER_02 (54:47):
All right, this feels like a really good spot to
take a breather.
Um, we'll put a pause on it forright now.
We'll come back next week withpart two of this conversation,
and we'll get the completion ofthe story.
SPEAKER_03 (55:02):
I can't even make them go away.
SPEAKER_01 (55:06):
Bad Idea Social Club is an independent podcast made
possible by Merc Sales, Reviews,and Listener Support.
And it's created and hosted byme, graphics and call, and
co-hosted by photographerGilMatter.
Music is noticed by Mike Mateand the branches.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.