Anna van Schaap: Hope and Tragedy // Part 2

In the conclusion of the season 7 finale, Anna van Schaap (fine artist, tattoo artist, curator) sits down with Aaron McCall to talk about building a creative life that refuses to be small. She gets into finding her voice and claiming her space out of passion and defiance, and carving out something different for women and queer folks in an industry with a history of the opposite. They talk about art history, women in art created by women in art, and the cost of going all in on something you were told wasn't for you. It's about volition, visibility, and holding hope and tragedy at the same time.

Keep up with Anna van Schaap:
annavanschaap.com
IG: @theother_twistedsister
IG: @theother_twistedsister_tattoos
IG: @theother_twistedsister_photos

Creative Mornings Grand Rapids
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——
This episode is supported by:
Creative Mornings Grand Rapids
Merchants & Makers
——
Writer/Producer/Editor/Host:
Aaron McCall
aaronmccall.net
IG: @aaron_mccall
——
Co-Host/Sidekick/Photographer:
Joe Matteson
themattesons.co
IG: @joe_dustin
——
Music:
"Noises" by Mike Mains & The Branches
——
Support the Podcast:
Buy Merch
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Follow Bad Idea Social Club:
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IG: @badideasocialclub

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:37):
So many things I am very literally well known for
doing.
People have told me, like, youcan't, you can't do it like
this.
You can't do this.
You're never gonna make it.
And I've been like, hold myfucking beer.

SPEAKER_01 (00:50):
I can't even make them go away.

SPEAKER_03 (01:04):
Uh hey everybody, welcome back to Bad Idea
Cultural Club.
My name is Aaron McCall.
And I'm Joe Madison.
This is uh this is a part twowith with our conversation with
Anna Van Scott.
So if you if you haven't uhlistened to the first one, go
back and do that because we'regonna pick up exactly where we
left off.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20):
Make sure to hang out after the episode though,
because we got a bunch of stuffwe want to make sure we clean up
before we close out this season.
Um so we'll see you then.

SPEAKER_03 (01:28):
All right, and here's the rest of my
conversation with Anna.
When somebody sits down withyou, like like they're handing
you their trust.

SPEAKER_00 (01:35):
Oh my god.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It is um I everyone assumes Iwent into tattooing because it
it's like an art form that youcan make money on, you can live
on, you know, you you get to useyour your creative skills.
Uh, and that's not wrong, thatit's very rare as a fine artist

(01:57):
to also have a, you know,everyday job as well, where you
get to directly use the skillsthat bring you joy and
happiness.
But what actually is the numberone thing that like makes
tattooing um just light my hearton fire is spending every single
day, like day to day with somany amazing people.

(02:20):
Like I get to do a job where Iget to actually make art and I
get to hold people hostage forlike four or five hours and pick
their brain and get to know themas a person and connect with
them.
Um, I've walked away from thisbusiness, you know, it's been
three-quarters of a decade now.
And uh I like by the hundredsnow know so many people, like

(02:42):
regulars that just come back andI've like watched their lives
grow.
I've watched them get married,have children, like buy a house.
Like it's just so extraordinaryto watch the life that comes in.
Um, but it also is such a sacredform of trust where someone is
like, I'm giving you permissionto literally alter my body in a
way that is a forever thing.

(03:03):
But also I want to go back tothat.
So just let's bookmark thatbecause I have a really
interesting, I think, take onlike the foreverness of
tattooing at from an oilpainter's perspective.
Um, but uh yeah, so just like inthis very forever or at least
forever in this lifetime way,and um the fact that again, I
it's it's hard because there'sonly so much you can talk about

(03:27):
it for before people sort oflike tune out to it.
Um, but how men in the industryhave absolutely beyond abused
that right, abused that trust,abused that privilege.
Um I specifically wanted to be atattoo artist.
Like, you know, everyone iswelcome in my shop and I have
plenty of hetero male clients.

(03:49):
Um, but I specifically wanted aspace where the she's they's and
gays are safe and that they knowthat they are safe, that they
That's incredible.
Like come to me, I'm here.
Um, and I I think, you know,again, that that's my whole
business operates on just wordof mouth.
Like, I don't, you know, I donot do any kind of advertising.
It's just good reputation, goodwork and safety.

(04:11):
Um, but I will tell you thehorror stories that I have heard
from so many clients, like veryreal horror stories.
Um, like especially I'd say myqueer clients, um, just the uh
the story I hear a lot is umbeing made to feel deeply
unwelcome in traditional tattooshops, which is not surprising
when you have just like heteromen who I have you know um

(04:33):
little to no experience with anda dislike or disdain of
queerness.
Um so just the immediatereaction of like you're not
really welcome here, you're notreally who we want to tattoo and
being treated that way, eventhough you are giving them your
body, you are giving them yourtrust, and you are giving them
their money and still beingtreated so poorly.
Um, but the women it makes mefeel violently ill.

(04:55):
There's like an entire um uh agroup.
In fact, I'd love to give them ashout out if I can.
They they're called We Keep UsSafe.
Um, and it's a group of mostlywomen, but you know, queer folks
are in it too, um uh that are uhable to share their experiences
of sexual assault and abuse umto warn each other where you are

(05:16):
not safe.
And there is, I mean, there's awhole laundry list in the
Detroit music scene, and thenthere's a whole laundry list in
the Detroit tattoo scene wherelike literally men who used
opportunities to sexuallyassault and exploit like young
women, like having you knoweight under 18-year-olds come
into the shop after hours, andthese little girls like not

(05:36):
knowing not to do that, like ohyeah, it's uh it will turn your
stomach inside out if you goread some of these threads.
It will make you angry and sick.
Um I can feel it in my throat.
Yeah.
So it's for me, it's not just aprivilege and not just a uh an
issue of trust, it is also adesire in whatever way I can to

(06:00):
help rectify that to create aspace where you will never ever
have to think twice about that,where um you never ever have to
experience anything like thatagain.
And even um doing a lot of likevery low cost, if almost free
cover-ups for women who havebeen abused by men or have been
tattooed by men who thensexually assaulted them.

(06:20):
Like, can you imagine what thatfeels like to have a man do that
to you and then be wearing whathe put on your body for the rest
of your life?
And the amount of women thathave to do that.

SPEAKER_03 (06:29):
I don't even know what to say.

SPEAKER_00 (06:30):
Yeah, I know.
And it's I mean, when I tell youa laundry list, and this is for
Detroit only, that thisorganization, it's everywhere,
it's not like this is Detroitspecific, but this is for women
warning other women in theDetroit area who is not safe to
go to.
Um, so it's what called me,honestly, to become a tattoo
artist.
And then um, you know, and it'ssomething I was always sort of

(06:52):
in the back of my mind, becauseI had people my whole life like,
oh, your style of drawing isvery conducive to tattooing.
It's like a little bit macabre,like it's very heavy contrast,
like it's things that dotranslate very well into
tattooing.
And so it was something alwaysin the back of my mind.
But what made me two things mademe quit the job I was doing and

(07:12):
start learning how to tattoo,and that was my dad dying
because it was like uh so I wasactually tattooing part-time
already at the time, but whatmade me decide to leave the job
that I was also doing part-timewas my dad dying, was the
catalyst.
It truly was one of those likevery um, you know, it's like the
I I know it's like a little bituh duh, but and you hear it, but

(07:38):
when you feel it, you feel it.
But it's truly one of thosemoments of like life is too
short.
Like losing him was like havingthe entire world picked up and
dropped on top of me.
Nothing made sense anymore.
Um, the grief, the mourning isjust too much.
And I was like, I lovetattooing.
I'm already doing thisfull-time.
I was just, I hadn't made thejump because I was scared that I
wouldn't be able to fullysupport myself.

(07:59):
You know, the other part-timejob I was doing, um, which was
in philanthropic fundraising.
Um, but I was working um for thecity of Detroit.
Well, for a firm that wasworking, had the city of
Detroit's art department was ournumber one client.
So I was actually helping try tocreate right programs and find
funding for arts programs forthe city of Detroit, which was

(08:20):
very cool.
Um, so it's I everything I'vedone in some way relates back to
art, but in sometimes moreroundabout ways than others.
Um, but yeah, I that was like asteady paycheck.
You know, I knew bi-weekly uhthe paycheck would be in the
mail.
Um, and so tattooing was like,well, if you do this, it's just
you.
And if you fail, like you, it'sjust you.

(08:40):
That's fucking scary.
It's so scary.

SPEAKER_03 (08:42):
How long has it been?

SPEAKER_00 (08:44):
Uh so I started learning how to tattoo late
2019, and then um I launchedfully, like left that job, and
have been solely a tattoo artistfor um my my dad passed away in
uh August of 2022.

SPEAKER_03 (09:03):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (09:04):
About four years of full-time tattooing.
Do you feel like you have yourfooting?
Oh, yeah.
I mean, I with tattooing and thesame with art, I don't think you
should ever be operating from apoint of like, I'm it.
Like this is as like you shouldalways be like, there's more to
learn.
Every day there's more to learn.
Every piece you make, there'smore to learn.
There are lessons in all of thework that you create, good and

(09:27):
bad.
Um, so I, you know, hope thatsix another six years down the
line, another seven years,another ten years down the line,
I look back at this work and go,LOL, you know, and and I've done
that.
Like, I remember painting, youknow, things and at 21, 22 years
old, being like, I'm amazing,I'm such a good artist.
And now I look back on that andjust like giggle, like, wow,

(09:49):
boy, you were really full ofyourself because that's not that
good.

SPEAKER_03 (09:52):
You know, I think we all had egos at that age, right?

SPEAKER_00 (09:55):
Like, but you I think you have to too to survive
because the world around youjust wants to beat you into a
pulp.
Like you have to have something.
Maybe, maybe it's ego, but alsomaybe it's just a little bit of
um self-belief as maybe a nicerway of reframing that.
Because especially if you aredoing something out of the
ordinary and you come from a bitmore of an ordinary background,

(10:17):
like I did, you know, I camefrom an extremely middle class
family.
Like, we certainly were not likepoor, but I we weren't wealthy,
you know.
Like we, like I went to publicschools my whole life.
I didn't have anybody that'slike, you're gonna grow up and
be, you know, whatever you wantto be.
It's like, no, you'll grow upand be whatever you work your
ass off at being.

(10:38):
You know, I came from uh my dadwas very blue-collar, my mom was
very middle class, and likemaybe even blue-collar growing
up, working into my familybecame middle class.
So it was very much like, no,you the world is what you make
of it.
It's not your oyster, it's howhard are you willing to work.
Um, and how bad do you wantsomething?
So for me, uh yeah, I think itwas it's just um getting in

(11:01):
there and uh making it happen.
And um, but yeah, I think Ireally hope, you know, 15 years
from now, 10 years from now,that I look back and I'm like,
oh how silly that I even thoughtthat was good.
Look what I can do now, youknow, and for both art and
tattooing.

SPEAKER_03 (11:17):
Well, how does how does all of this play into your
work in curation?

SPEAKER_00 (11:23):
Oh man.
Yeah, boy, I do too much.
I'll tell you what.
I do a lot, yeah.
I do.
Um, which is really funnybecause I'm also um like I would
personally say I am a lowerenergy person.
Like I I'm very ambitious andI'm very driven by also just
like an exhausted slug 24-7.

(11:46):
I'm just like, I need I want tonap.
I'm tired.
Yes, yes.
Both of those things.
Like, bring me a cat and acookie.
Um, you put them here on thetable, but uh yeah, I'm very
driven, I'm very ambitious, andum, my body is constantly
exhausted, fatigued, and tired,but my mind never stops.

(12:08):
It's honestly, I think half ofwhat is exhausting me 24-7, and
my mind just like will not shutoff.
Um, and so I'm always like, oh,I could do this, I could do
this.
And so I moved to Detroit.
I've been there for uh about 14years now, and uh and I lived in
Ipsy for two years before that,and then I was in Ann Arbor for
school before that.
So I've been sort of in thatcollective area for more than

(12:31):
you know half my life.
Yeah, you've them.
Um, and then uh yeah, so Icouldn't afford staying in Ann
Arbor like most kids.
So I moved to Ipsy right out onthe perimeter there, and then I
ended up getting a gallery jobat in Ann or in Detroit.
Um technically actually it wasin Gross Point Park, like right
on the cusp of Detroit.

(12:52):
And so I was driving down toDetroit every day, and then the
relationship I was in at thetime, all through college, like
we went our separate ways, itwas pretty amicable.
Like that's one of the people Ilike, I wish well.
Like he's a professor at Dukenow, very cool, very impressive
person.
Like, not the greatest, mostloving relationship, but someone
that very much taught me a lotabout art, but more I think

(13:12):
taught me um it's a weird way tophrase it, but someone I think
that truly taught me how tolearn.
Like he was one of the mostcurious minds I've ever met,
probably one of the moreintelligent people I've ever
come across in my life.
And he was just curious abouteverything.
And his curiosity, I sort of wasable from an outside perspective
look at how he approachedlearning from this just like

(13:35):
need to understand and thiscuriosity and went like, oh,
that's how that's how you becomeintelligent by being curious
about things and then pursuingon trying your best to
understand them from yourperspective.
Um, so if anything, I think helike taught me how to teach
myself things, which I willnever forget.
Um, but anyway, we went ourseparate ways.
So had to move from Ipsy and Iwas already in the area, so

(13:58):
ended up moving down to Detroitand then worked as a gallery
assistant, was my first bigDetroit job.
Um, and that gallery also had anart preservation business.
Um, so I ended up training aslike a tier one uh painting art
pre preserver and um would likework on some of the claims.

(14:22):
Um, and that was again one ofthe first people in this
professional world, the directorof that uh gallery, who sort of
stood back and was like, Youhave a lot of talent.
Like, I you know, I wasdefinitely at a like a very sort
of low point, broken point.
Like I just was happy to haveany job in the art world, like
the, you know.
Um, and he was like, You areactually quite a talented

(14:45):
painter.
Like, I why don't you paint, youknow?
Because at the time I reallyhadn't started painting.
There's actually another littleside story here.
When I um attended college, U ofAmazon, the uh Penny Stamp
School of Art and Design, and umthey make you do at the time I
was there, they have thisprogram called TMPs, which are
eight-week courses where you dofour of them a year and you try

(15:08):
everything.
Like you do painting, drawing,clay, metalsmith working, uh
woodworking.
Like, I mean, they have you tryeverything, which is I think an
awesome thing, especially as akid that came from public
school, where like art class forus was like, you know, tempera
paint.
Like, I yeah, I never touchedlike great art supplies in my
life, let alone like learned howto oil paint before.

SPEAKER_03 (15:29):
Yeah, you just picked the stuff out of a
bucket.

SPEAKER_00 (15:31):
Yes, yeah.
It was like, here's somemarkers, you know, like we're
gonna we're gonna make popsiclestick pro, you know, like it
wasn't that bad.
Actually, shitting on my highschool a little bit.
And the art teacher in my highschool is amazing.
Shout out to Miss Black, who wasalways so supportive and loving.
Um, but uh anyway, so it but Idid.
It was like finally this timewhere I was like, wow, I never I

(15:52):
don't know how to woodwork, Idon't know how to use, you know,
like weld things.
I don't know.
So it's that's a very coolprogram that they have all their
students do.
And I really loved oil painting.
I had never been I, you know,never done oil painting before
and was really enjoying it.
So I ended up taking anotherlike full-length class uh in oil
painting.
And I don't, I can't really tellyou why.

(16:16):
Um, but this professor, who byall accounts was a very lovely
man, like I am not shitting onhim at all, but he and I think
he had his my best interest inmind when he said it, but he
clearly had his favorites in theclass.
I was not one of them.
And in the end, he was like,Yeah, maybe you should try
something else like video orphotography.

(16:36):
Like he essentially indicated tome, like, oil is not your thing,
painting is not your thing.
And I was 19 at the time.
I might have even still been 18.
I think it was an 19 by then,and that broke me because I
really liked it, I reallyenjoyed it.
But he and he and again, I don'tthink he actually meant it
maliciously.

SPEAKER_03 (16:54):
I find that infuriating.

SPEAKER_00 (16:55):
Well, I think that's a story of a lot of artists,
though.
And I think again, it it's it'shard to actually know, but I
think it's a story of a lot offemale artists.
I think it's a story of a lot ofwomen artists when you have men
around you who might actuallydeep down, and I don't know, and
I'm not saying this is the case,but they might see talent that
they don't have as men and dowhat they can to dissuade or

(17:16):
discourage that talent becauseas men they don't want, you
know.
And like, I don't know, there'sbeen other very famous artists
and creatives in history whohave had the same stories, like
teachers that were encouragingand teachers that were very
discouraging.
And sometimes there's malice tothose stories.
Sometimes, you know, I I don'tthink that this professor
actually was trying to do harm,but because by all accounts, he

(17:39):
was a very lovely man.
Um, but okay, but also isn't itkind of his job to uh to nurture
you and support you and and getyou to where you need to be if
he thinks but it was also thejob of that art school to, in a
sense, like weed out kids thatdidn't really have a shot, you
know, like we did so the hardestthings.

(17:59):
Uh yeah.
Um but uh yeah, one of thehardest things you actually have
to do in that program is calledyour sophomore review, where
literally the end of yoursophomore year, so halfway
through the program, you have tosit in front of a panel of
professors.
Most of them are not professorsyou've actually had.
They like try very hard to makesure it's professors you don't

(18:19):
have a relationship with andexplain to them through like a
45-minute presentation of yourwork and your interests why you
should stay in the school.
And they very literally havekids leave.
They have them take likesabbaticals away if they don't,
if they think like the talentmight be there, but you're just
not pushing hard enough, or theytruly have people and like you

(18:43):
don't end up kicked out of U ofM.
Like you can go enroll in L SNA.
You're still a U of M student,but you are no longer a penny
stamp student.
Now, I don't know if they dothis anymore, but that when I
was there, whatever, 20 yearsago.
That's fucking brutal.
Yeah, you're 20 years old, orsometimes 19.
You're a child.
Yeah.
And you have to prove to a panelof adults you don't know why you

(19:03):
belong in that school.
Um, yeah, that was actually thefirst time I ever had a panic
attack, was right before thiswas all happening.
Yeah.
And I also had lost like a lotof family, like the months
leading up to this.
So I was just in this likehorrific mental state.
And I was like, oh my God, Ithink I'm dying.
And the doctors are like, Nope,that's a panic attack, kiddom.
Wow.
Um, but yeah, so uh in a in aweird way, uh that being like a

(19:27):
an essential part of theprogram, I think part of it is
also approaching it from thestandpoint of like, these are,
you know, career artists.
That's why they are U of M artschool professors, because they
have actually made it as artistsand made careers doing it, and
they have some perspective andunderstanding of like kids who

(19:47):
maybe like art and had sometechnical skill and talent, but
maybe don't have what it takesto make it in the art world.
And going back to being acurator, it's hard.
I've actually now seen it.
I've seen it where people have apassion for it, they have an
interest in making art, theyreally are giving it their all.
But I I've been in it longenough to be like, you're not
gonna make it.

(20:08):
Like, there's not enough here.
You're just not gonna make it.
And so, and even when, you know,I've been very lucky to do
guests.
At least at this point, at leastat this point.
At least at this point, yes,yeah.
But as someone also has to atsome point tell you you're not
going to make it, to eitherdissuade you from wasting a lot
of your life doing somethingyou're you don't, you just don't

(20:30):
have the skill, talent, or driveto do, or to make you double
down on it.
Because when I'm telling you, Iam the personality I've been
told so many things that I havedone, so many things I am very
literally well known for doing.
People have told me, like, youcan't, you can't do it like
this.
You can't do this, you're nevergonna make it.
And I've been like, hold myfucking beer.
Like, I sometimes I need someoneto tell me no, in order to be

(20:52):
like, all right, well, now I'mreally in.
Like, it's this weird, like veryoppositional, defiant
personality that once someonetells me I can't do something
and I have the vision of how todo it or how I'm going to do it,
I'm like, all right, well, nowI'm doubling down.
Like I'm actually in this fightfor real.
Um, but sadly, that is more apersonality trait as a grown
confident adult, as a child, an18, 19-year-old.

(21:15):
Um, that hearing that from thatprofessor and someone I did
admire and like, um, that brokemy spirit.
So I didn't take a singlepainting class again.
Like, not at that school.
I never took a painting classagain.
Uh, never like I can truly say Iam a self-taught oil painter.
I took one and a quarterpainting classes at U of M, and

(21:35):
that was all that I ever took.
Cheers.
Cheers! Yeah.
Which is not to say, like, youknow, there's all ways to all
things, like doing it, you know,doing apprenticeships and you
know, having a master teach you,like, you don't have to be
self-made.
It's just sometimes there is nopath.
Otherwise, you it the path isthe path you make.
So, um, but yeah, so I uh endedup not touching oil paint for

(22:00):
years and years and years untilI ended up at this gallery as a
gallery assistant and then gottrained to start helping with
painting because I have a greateye for color.
So when you have damagedpainting, a lot of it is like in
painting, like fixing areas, butlike color matching, like you
really gotta understand color.
And there is some brains thatdon't get it, and some brains

(22:21):
that just do.
I I can't tell you why becausethat's not something I was
taught, but I can look at thecolor of something and know
exactly the colors I need tomake that exact color, just
intuitively.
Like I can make that.
Like I that's incredible.
It is some weird littleidiosyncrasy inside my brain,
but um, so yeah.
Really good at that.
And uh this gallery director waslike, You are quite talented,

(22:43):
you should paint.
Um, and then um, unfortunately,I did end up getting laid off
from that job.
We like lost two or three likehuge accounts, like like hundred
like multiple hundreds ofthousand dollars accounts.
And I was the last one hired.
I was fairly, you know, I'd onlyworked there a couple years, so
he was like, I'm so sorry.

(23:03):
I and he's like, I will hire youback when and if I can.
I understand if you have to geta job, like I'm sorry this is
happening.
But he's like, in the meantime,like, you know, you're not being
fired.
This is you're laid off.
So I got to collect unemploymentfor I think it was like six or
seven months.
I got to collect unemployment.
So, like that was back when lifewas affordable and living in
Detroit was cheap, and my rentwas like$500.

(23:24):
So I could live off of it.
I wasn't living well, but Icould easily live off of it.
Um, and so during that time Iwas looking for another job.
I just painted, I painted mybrains out.
And I remember being sodevastated when it happened at
the time because that was likethe first time really, and
again, I wasn't fired, but itfelt like it.
It felt like rejection.
It felt like rejection.
It felt like, and it felt likelosing like the steps forward I

(23:46):
had taken.
It felt like suddenly goingbackwards.
Uh, but it was one of the bestthings that ever happened in my
life because in that, you know,I it might have even been a
little longer than seven months,maybe eight or nine months.
It wasn't a full year, but maybeit was closer to like three
quarters of a year.
During that time, I busted outlike four or five huge
paintings.
Like I took what that gallerydirector, Mark Doran, said very

(24:10):
seriously, and I startedpainting my ass off.
And then I got the call from himthat was like, Hey, I have some
like side jobs.
Like I can pay you to do sidejobs.
I can't bring you back on fulltime, but if you want to do
this, I was like, Great, I'm in.
And after doing a few side jobsfor him, like fixing up
paintings and um like I don'tknow, just one afternoon we were
talking and he was like, So youbut have you been painting?

(24:31):
And I'm like, Yes.
And um, I brought him in somework to show him, and he was
like, There's something here,kid.
Like, there's something here.
Like, I really hope youunderstand, like, there's
something to this.
And then um, super tragically,super horrifically, he ended up
passing away like reallysuddenly.
He got on a plane, he was likein his 60s, he got on a plane to

(24:51):
um go watch his eldest daughtergraduate from um medical school
and had like a brain aneurysmrupture and died.
So he got on a plane and then wenever saw him again.
Um, and the gallery obviouslyhad to temporarl.
It did end up like coming backbecause sort of his second in
command like bought out his sideof it and like brought it back.
But um, that was years later, soI had moved on in life.

(25:12):
But um, because like sort of theending story between him and me
was this like very talentedperson in the industry that was
like, You've got something hereyou need to explore.
And then he was a little bitlike another father figure,
honestly.
And I didn't know anybody when Imoved to Detroit, like literally
him and his wife did thefinances for the gallery, so and

(25:34):
I was like right around all oftheir daughters' ages, so they
did also very much treat me abit like a daughter.
Um, and uh yeah, I was I waspretty, pretty just heartbroken
at that, but it gave me like thespace and the courage to keep
pursuing it because it wasbasically his kind of last words
to me were like, There'ssomething here, and so I started
working my ass off and I didn'tlook back.

(25:56):
But it was a couple years intobeing an artist in Detroit and
starting to show a little bitmore regularly, but I was really
struggling to findopportunities.
I was really struggling to getmy work into anywhere because I
was nobody, like the work wasgood.
It wasn't, you know, anythinglike it is now, but it was still
very good.
Um, but unfortunately in thefine art world, it's not always

(26:17):
about how good your work is.
It's about the connections youhave, it's about your
reputation.
What's your name?
It's about your name.
And when you're young, you'vegot no show record, you have no
exhibition record to proveyou're worth having in a
gallery.
There's no name behind you,nobody who knows who you are.
So sometimes you can make itinto shows based on just pure
talent, and sometimes you can't.
And I was finding it really hardto get into shows or get like

(26:40):
build a CV, build opportunities,grow my name, grow my
reputation.
I was like, well, fuck it.
I took, I, you know, I one of mydegrees is from uh is in art
history, but I got it from themuseum and curatorial studies
program at U of M that existedat the time.
And so it was all about like thehistory of art through the

(27:01):
curatorial lens.
So I had a huge interest inartists as curators and like,
you know, you know, like Cosmiavon Bon, and like the people
that came in that were like, wecan remove the institutional
side of curation and um viewcuration as a collection of
artists that have something tosay together in the same space

(27:22):
and um sort of haphazardly makethat happen.
But again, I'm a little bit moreof a uh a type A personality.
So I was like, if I'm gonna doit, I'm gonna do it in a the
right way, in a professionalway.
Like I'm trying to buildsomething, not just
opportunities for artists, but Ialso want to build something
here in Detroit, you know,something to say.

(27:43):
Um, so I just started likereaching out to spaces.
I found like a gallery space Icould rent.
I charge like a very minimal,like$10, I think a$10 entry fee
to just submit to being in theshow, which literally just
covered the cost of me rentingthis space.
Um and that was the first uhshow I called it Things Feel
Heavy.
It's after one of my favorite umuh there's a book called The

(28:08):
Goth, the Contemporary Gothic,and it's all about the
re-emergence of the Gothic andcontemporary art world.
And there is a um insert fromJerry Saltz, who's a very famous
art critic.
And in the end, he's liketalking about like, I don't know
why, you know, the gothic, Idon't we we can speculate.
I don't really know why, youknow, the gothic has re-emerged
so heavily at this particularpoint in time.

(28:29):
Um, but in the end, I think, youknow, things feel heavy.
And I'm like, oh so that's wherethe name comes from, things feel
heavy.
And um, I think, boy, does thatstill fit and resonate today,
you know?
Oh shit.
So yeah, uh, and then I justkept going from there.
Like, um, and and and it'sinterplayed together both my
personal art career and then theopportunities that have come out

(28:51):
of that for curating and alsocurating shows and the
opportunities for my personalart career have like it's been,
you know, in in tandem with eachother.
They have at one point I curateda show that had an artist in it
who was a professor at uh McCombCommunity College, taught art at
Macomb Community College, andthey had a really wonderful like
guest artist program.

(29:11):
They like had like a like amassive stipend.
Like, I'm like, this is acommunity college.
Like, how what?
Like U of M.
I've guest lectured at U of Mand they paid me a quarter of
that, you know, like crazy.
Um, but yeah, I went in and didlike a solo show.
So I had him in a coupledifferent shows, and he's like,
I love your work, I love whatyou're doing.
I've recommended you for ourguest artist program, and the

(29:34):
director of the program waslike, You're perfect, you're
exactly what we're looking for.
So I came in and did like aguest lecture and a solo show
and like a art, you know, ademonstration with the students.
And so all of that was because Iwas curating these shows and
happened to have this artist,David Heil, in the show, and he
connected me to that.
So, and it and has gone theother way too, where um, like

(29:55):
one time I was in a group showat the car center, uh, downtown
Detroit, and um, it ended upbeing like not the best attended
show, um, which, you know, it'salways sort of a bummer when
there's not a lot of peoplethere for the shows.
But the director, the carcenter, was on site because
there wasn't a ton of people.
I ended up striking up thisconversation with the director

(30:16):
of the car center.
And after, you know, 40 minutesinto talking, he's like, I want
to hire you to curate a show.
And he gave me a stipend, anassistant, and all three fours
in the car building.
I put in like a hundred artistsinto that show.
Yeah, like a hundred artistsinto that show.
And then um at the same time, Ialso had a painting that was

(30:37):
exhibiting at the Charles H.
Wright Museum and a contemporaryshow through the Bombay Bombay
Artisan series.
And so I had dropped off thepainting, met the contemporary
curator, and then told her likeabout this car center show that
was opening like in the nextweek.
And she was like, Oh, yeah, I'lltry to drop by if I can, because
it's right down the street.
And um, she ended up coming,seeing it, being like, I this is

(30:58):
insane what you've done here.
Like, this is this is banana.
She's like, Do you want tocurate a show at the the Charles
H.
Wright Museum?
So that was the first time Iever got to guest curate at a
major museum, become like, youknow, a guest curator for a
literally internationallyrecognized museum was because
she showed up to this othershow.
So it's so wild.
I I tell artists all the time,creatives, anybody, this is uh

(31:20):
this applies to anybody.
If you have ambitions to dothings with what your life, you
gotta leave your house.
You gotta just go do things.
And everybody is gonna have anopinion about you doing it,
whether it's right or wrong.
Um, and as long as what you aredoing and how you're doing it
does not harm people, okay,because if somebody's like, what
you're doing and how you'redoing it is harmful, okay.

(31:41):
Pay attention.

SPEAKER_03 (31:41):
Go fuck yourself.

SPEAKER_00 (31:42):
Go fuck yourself.
Yep.
But as long as you have a visionfor how to do it and you see a
path to doing it, no matter whatother people say, if you want it
bad enough, chase it down and doit because some other
opportunity will come of it.
Even if that didn't turn intoexactly what you had thought or
had aspired for it to be,there's still something that's
gonna come out of it.
I I will tell young artists, sayno to nothing.

(32:05):
Say no to nothing.
Because even if it's like smallpotatoes below you, or you think
it's below you, as a youngartist, nothing's below you, by
the way.
But if it's small potatoes belowwhere you'd like to be, I
guarantee something else willcome out of that.
Either a connection to anotherartist, to a conversation with a
curator, a conversation with uh,you know, I I have literally had
conversations with people thatin my young life, maybe not much

(32:29):
older than me, have followed myart career and now have bought
in full price paintings from me.
Well, you know, now that at thetime they were probably in their
40s, I was in my mid to late20s, now they're, you know, in
their 50s and 60s and have thekind of money and buy actual
art, follow have followed me for20 years, and now that they can
have bought in full pricepaintings.
And they were like, Yeah, I metyou at this show like 20 years

(32:50):
ago.
You stopped and talked to me forlike 45 minutes.
Yeah.
I'm like, oh fuck.

SPEAKER_03 (32:54):
Just been waiting.

SPEAKER_00 (32:55):
That's crazy.
Yeah.
So you never know, you trulynever know.
And that is the very, very bestpart about getting older as a
person is watching from thisside of things why everything
had to happen.
It's so painful when you'regoing through hard stuff, but
sometimes things have to happenin order for the doors to open

(33:16):
on the path where you'resupposed to be.
Like people have to exit yourlife, bad shit has to happen,
things have to move you, growyou, mold you in ways to move
you down onto a path whereyou're meant to be.
And once you're on that path,boy, I'll tell you what, the
whole world opens up.
Because once you once theuniverse can push you onto the
path you're supposed to be on,and it's that that's the path

(33:39):
they want you on, it's opendoors everywhere you look.
You're now you're like, well,what do I do?
And they're like, analysis,paralysis.
I'm gonna sit on the couch.

unknown (33:47):
I love it.

SPEAKER_03 (33:48):
Um, all right, you want to go to have a capping?

SPEAKER_00 (33:51):
Yeah, well, first, is there anything that I didn't
cover that you wanted to knowabout?

SPEAKER_03 (33:57):
We've been talking for five hours.

SPEAKER_00 (33:58):
I know, I swear, but truly, and I can't like I was
like nervous to come on thepodcast.
My mom's like, why you lovelistening to your top talk?
I was like, Actually, I thinkmaybe I said it and she laughed
and agreed, but for the sake ofthe story being funnier, my mom
said that to me.

SPEAKER_03 (34:12):
I love it.
I love it.
All right.
Uh also there's a bit of a maybea hard turn here.

SPEAKER_00 (34:17):
Okay, yeah, hard turn it.

SPEAKER_03 (34:19):
When you're gone, what do you hope people say
about you?

SPEAKER_00 (34:21):
Oh my god.
Um, that's an amazing questionbecause I can tell you how the
massiveness in which that haschanged now.
If you would have asked me thatquestion 10 years ago, I would
have wanted people to rememberme for my work, my talent, my
skill, my drive, what I built inthe world.
And now I know this is cliche,but I truly believe this with my

(34:43):
whole heart.
I want people to rememberfeeling loved by me.
That's it.
I want their takeaway to be likewhen I was around her, I felt
seen, heard, appreciated, andloved.
Um, because I have realized outof as I've gotten older and I
now have the open doors tobigger opportunities, to, you

(35:04):
know, like stars in the field,you know, some of the artists I
now have spent time with andmuseums I have been in, and
curators and all of this, um,these are really people who have
made it.
And being around them, um, I getnow the saying of like, don't
always meet your heroes.
Like, not everybody's great.
Because and and the people in mylife that stand out like shining

(35:27):
stars, it is because I feel soseen, welcome, and loved by
them.
And my true number one goal inlife is to swallow my own bill
bullshit as much as I can umwhen that stuff comes up and
really try to make sure peopleare loved.
Like, I don't know what elsewe're doing here because um, and

(35:51):
one of the things I kind of wantto get back to, which I'm gonna
do a little bit here, is the umI think it's really funny being
a tattoo artist and an oilpainter because people talk
about tattoos as a foreverthing.
Oh, you're getting in, it'sforever.
And I'm like, well, that'sreally funny because if forever
is just how like you die, yourbody rots in the ground.
So it's like you get this tattooat 20, you've maybe got 60, 65,

(36:13):
70 maybe years, and that tattoodoesn't exist anymore because
your body doesn't exist anymore.
Whereas like we have oilpaintings that are thousands and
thousands and thousands of yearsold.
So the idea of forever is sodifferent to me as a like there
is a absolute beauty and theephemeralness that is tattoos,

(36:35):
like they last as long as youare here and they go with you.
But oil paintings, that's you'releaving this cipher of history
behind for entire civilizationsto come after you and to
interpret as like what was goingon in the world at the time.
So I think that's funny andinteresting.
But um, yeah, there's a ofcourse I hope that my work is

(36:56):
impactful and people takesomething away from it.
Um, I hope people look at it andfeel uh validated that they're
not alone in their experiencesof the world, both the the
beauty and the pain of it.
Um, but the one thing I wantpersonally to be remembered for
is when I was with her, I've Iwas loved.

SPEAKER_03 (37:18):
That's beautiful.
I love that.

SPEAKER_00 (37:19):
Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 (37:20):
Um finish the thought.

SPEAKER_00 (37:21):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (37:22):
Creativity requires passion.

SPEAKER_00 (37:25):
I know it's a cliche, but it's true.
Creativity it requires passion.
Like you really you have to bepassionate about everything.
You have to be passionate aboutyour drive and ambition to
pursue it.
Um if you want it as a lifelongkind of career.
Um life is exhausting, right?
Like, look at like everyone isexhausted.
We're so tired.

(37:45):
The amount of times I have met,seen, and heard super talented
people that were artists onceupon a time, then they got a
40-hour a week job and they'rejust like too exhausted, and
eventually they stopped makingart.
That's really devastating towatch that kind of talent sort
of on the wayside, um, becauselife is exhausting.
So you have to be souncomfortably passionate about

(38:09):
wanting to make things that itactually like is upsetting to
not make them.
Like there are long periods oftime I will go without like you
need rest, you need respite fromyour work, you need you need
respite from the the innerworkings of your own mind
mostly, I think.
Um, and you also need time tojust like be a person and relax
and enjoy.

(38:29):
So it's okay to take breaks, butthere will get to a point where
the break has been long enoughthat it it's like unsettling how
it feels inside my body to notmake things.
Like it's like it's n it's likeuh it's a need.
It's literally a need.

SPEAKER_03 (38:46):
It feels wrong.

SPEAKER_00 (38:47):
It feels wrong.
It feels something is off.

SPEAKER_03 (38:49):
Um do you know do you know James Victoria?
So he's uh um uh designer,artist, um Living?
Yeah, okay.
Yes, uh he's also a uh creativecoach, and uh he's uh he was
telling the story about how umyou know he'll talk to different
creatives and stuff.
They're like, man, my job justdoesn't let me like create or

(39:10):
like I I don't have the time togo do the things that make me
me.
And he's like, Well, that's notyour job.
You're you're sitting insomebody else's chair.
Yeah, get the fuck out.
You know, I just love that.
That's what that reminded me of.
I love that.

SPEAKER_00 (39:23):
Yeah, so I think passion, you really you have to
want it with everything in you.
It like you have to want it to apoint where it like bothers you
not to have it, yeah, where itsits wrong in your body.

SPEAKER_03 (39:34):
What would your last meal be?

SPEAKER_00 (39:36):
Oh my god, bread.
Just bread like like fresh outof the oven, fresh baked bread,
like with olive oil and butterand herbs.
Just I'm Dutch.
Every meal is like bread, meat,and potatoes.
I but I've been a vegetarianliterally since I was 12.
So, like bread and potatoes,just everything.
My favorite food is bread,period.

SPEAKER_03 (39:57):
I love that.

SPEAKER_00 (39:58):
Nothing fancy, just bread.

SPEAKER_03 (40:00):
Uh, what's the best or the worst advice you've ever
received?

SPEAKER_00 (40:04):
I don't think painting is your thing.
Yeah, I thought I knew that wasa good thing.
Um best advice, you know, and Idon't even I can't like pinpoint
a source where it comes from,but I think the best advice I
would say for everybody toreally hold on to is again, if
you want it bad enough, you canhave it, but you really need to

(40:31):
work for it.
I I I worry a little bit aboutsome of the generations now
coming up behind us.
Um, I love their views on theworld, I love the morals and
ethics they seem to becultivating, but um, I worry a
little bit about their drive togo get it.
And it's understandable becauselook, they have been born into a

(40:51):
monstrous world, like like uhalmost a world that feels
lacking in hope.
And when there's no hope, likehow do you you know get up and
push every day?
But um I will say you can notthat there's nothing off limits
to like yes, I like I, you know,there are yes, there are things

(41:12):
that are always going to be offlimits to certain people, but um
if you want something badenough, you might not be able to
get it the way you want it, butthere is a way to it in a w in a
world or in a in there's apathway to it in a way that you
can make it for yourself, butyou really have to be willing to
work hard ten times harder thaneveryone around you.

(41:35):
There are most periods in mytime where I, you know, between
curating, between the nationalpress photography work, between
the fine art, between thetattooing, like I'm pulling 70,
80 hour weeks.
Like people they see the easyside of things, they see the
opportunities that come on theother side of that.
They did not see the 80-hourweeks of just grinding,

(41:58):
grinding, exhausted, likezombie-like, trying to pull this
stuff off.
Um, and the toll that that alsotakes, like be willing to pay a
price at some point, like,especially as you get older,
your body will pay that for you.
But um, yeah, I think the adviceis like if you want it bad
enough, chase it down.

SPEAKER_03 (42:17):
Go fucking get it.

SPEAKER_00 (42:18):
Go fucking get it.

SPEAKER_03 (42:19):
Um, what would your walk-up song be?
What is your walk-up song?

SPEAKER_00 (42:24):
It's probably like Nirvana's, like, I'm a freak.
I fucking love it.
Oh my god.
That's a hard one.
I wish I had more time to thinkabout that, but that was the
first thing that came to myfeet.

SPEAKER_03 (42:35):
I love that.
I love that.
Um what what makes you feel mostlike yourself?

SPEAKER_00 (42:41):
Well, truthfully, I I think uh I go back to painting
every time because it's the Ibeing in the studio with like a
cat sleeping in the corner,which like my little soulmate
baby, he's my little studio cat.
He's just like wherever I go, hegoes.
He has like his own chair in thestudio where he just car curl up

(43:03):
and like sit with me.
But um I think being in thestudio with a little cat
sleeping in the corner paintingis truly the only times in my
life where I can say I feltwhole.
Like there are um there's somuch about life I love, there's
so many things about life thatare hard, but um there seems to

(43:24):
be if the feeling of somethingmissing when I'm doing anything
other than painting, like I'mnot doing something I should be
doing.
Um, and I would maybe say like alittle caveat.
I feel it when I'm really in agroove with like a client I love
and we're working on, you know,a huge piece together.
It's like a very collaborativething and ideas, and it's just

(43:45):
like a wonderful mesh.
Because obviously you have someclients, you're just your
personalities are like you know,instant best friend now.
Um, including my birthday twin,uh, who is now one of my
favorite people in the world.
Um, she was a client.
We met, I was like tattooingher.
We ended up realizing weliterally have the same
birthday.
Like, we were like, oh, we'rebirthday twins.
That's so weird, which makessense because we're literally

(44:07):
the same person.
Um, but yeah, like I would saypainting and maybe like the
connectivity to a client in themoment of like connecting as a
human, connecting through art,connecting through just like
sharing the world, both good andbad, like what's going on, and
um making a space for just likea person to show up is the t the

(44:30):
times are I feel whole.

SPEAKER_03 (44:33):
Do you have any regrets?

SPEAKER_00 (44:35):
Yeah, of course.
Every other regret.
I mean I don't think there's aperson on the planet that
wouldn't regret anything.

SPEAKER_03 (44:41):
I will sometimes people tell me no, and I could
just I could just smell thebullshit.

SPEAKER_00 (44:45):
Yeah, that's bullshit.
I'm sorry.
There's like everybody wouldhave done something different at
some point.
I think truthfully, one of mybiggest regrets, I uh I had a
really hard time in high schooland middle school.
I was bullied quite a lot.
Um people never believe me, butI was like pretty overweight.
I was really really chubby, andum there's like a group, a core
group of like the popular boyswho were like quite cruel, to be

(45:06):
honest.
Like they would like make snortlike pig noises at me in the
hallway.
And um uh it's all okay.
We all we grow from all of ourexperiences, but that I did, I
took a lot of insecurity awayfrom that.
That took a long time toeradicate from like the core of
who I am.
But I still there's like timeswhere like I it's like the

(45:27):
insecurity will creep back inenough I can touch it and be
like, oh no, fucking sage of thehouse, it's back, you know.
Um, but uh I think what I regretis um because I was hurting so
much, I was not who I am todayin terms of like my openness.
Um, like I would I I'm not sureI would say like I was mean to

(45:49):
other people, but I was veryclosed off.
I was very, I was so just hurtand like opening yourself up to
more pain was painful.
So I was just very shut down, Iwas very closed off.
I really didn't I think I likedidn't like other people and I
very I was very um very walledoff in throughout all of high

(46:12):
schools.
I was not mean, but I wasunkind, I think.
And um I don't know, there's afew people in particular I can
think about that like I look Ithink about them now as adults
and thought like man that's aperson that probably just really
needed a friend and I did notextend myself in that way.
And I think part of it was beingyoung, which isn't really an

(46:33):
excuse.
Part of it is being hurt myself,and part of it was just like I
really need to grow up andrealize like the only thing that
actually matters here is otherpeople, like all the rest of it.
This is just silly, like peopleare what matter.
Um, and if I could go back anddo it again, I think even if
those same boys wanted to pickon me, I think I would still

(46:53):
choose to show up kind.

SPEAKER_03 (46:55):
Name names, let's get them.

SPEAKER_00 (46:56):
No, no, no, those little shits know who they are.

SPEAKER_03 (47:01):
Um okay, last question.
Are you okay?

SPEAKER_00 (47:05):
Oh man.
That's a great question.
Uh it's a difficult question.
Um because in my day-to-day, uh,I'm very blessed.
I, you know, I come from aloving and supportive family.
Um I have the most amazing, likeabsolutely like shockingly

(47:28):
amazing group of human beings inmy life around me.
Um and in fact, actually, it'sone of the few things I will
remind myself when I'm gettingdown on myself, when I can feel
myself just like you arenothing, you're worth like
whatever.
When I'm getting down on myself,the one thing that snaps me out
of it quicker than anything isactually looking at the friends

(47:51):
around me and going, no, no, youactually must be a quite
exceptional person becausepeople of this caliber wouldn't
be interested in being yourfriend if you weren't a
wonderful human, too.
Like, whatever bad things you'rethinking about yourself, like
these people wouldn't put upwith it.
Um, like you, I I'm sofortunate.
I just the the coolest friends,clients.

(48:13):
I have a wonderful partner.
Um, I have a job that I love.
I wake up every day excited todo what I do.
I have a wonderful career that'sstill building, and watching it
grow like year to year to yearis still just like dumbfounding.
I'm so grateful for my life.
I have a cute little home inDetroit.
You know, it's nothing fancy,but it's mine.

(48:34):
I have a colony of cats, and forthe most part, everyone is happy
and healthy.
And um, so I personally havenothing to complain about, and
my corner of the world is abeautiful corner of the world.
I've worked very hard to make ita beautiful corner of the world,
but my heart is broken aboutwhat we are seeing day to day.

(48:55):
I am broken by it, and I amwatching people I love broken by
this world, um, by the hatred,by the xenophobia, the
transphobia, the misogyny, thejust all of it is heartbreaking
and is relentless.
Is relentless and um so yeah, Iguess even my last message there

(49:17):
is like I'm okay.
Um and the last thing I wouldprobably say to people is find
your community, find yoursupport.
We are all we have in thisworld.
Like no one is coming to saveus, but we will be there for
each other, and I feel verygrateful to have people that are
just endlessly supportive andloving, and I am a lucky person.

SPEAKER_03 (49:42):
Amazing.
Anna, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 (49:44):
Thank you, thank you for having me on.
This was lovely and uh amazing.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (49:48):
Uh before we go, where can people find you?

SPEAKER_00 (49:51):
Um, so I do have a website which is so old school.
I feel like such a millennial,elder millennial, and I'm like,
eh.
So uh my name, Anna Van Skop.
It's just Anavanskop.com.
Uh A-N-N-A-V-A-N-S-C-H-A-A-P dotcom.
But I exactly how it sounds.
Yep, exactly how it sounds.
Uh, but I um and it's updatedfor the most part as a website,

(50:13):
it's not like I'm on it everyday.
But uh Instagram is honestly thebest place.
That's the platform that I keepmost updated, that I post like
behind the scenes, like work inthe studio.
It's where I'll post likeupcoming shows I have or like
what I'm doing, what's going on.
Um, you know, I also will sayit's where I go on like
political and feminist rants, sojust be like be prepared.

(50:36):
But um, yeah, no uh Instagram.
So I have my art Instagram.
It is the other underscoretwisted sister.

SPEAKER_01 (50:45):
I love it.

SPEAKER_00 (50:45):
The other twisted sister.
Um, and then if you want to seemy tattoo work or book tattoos
through me, you can find me umso the other underscore twisted
sister tattoos.
And then if you want to see anywork that I have done as a
member of the National PressPhotography Association covering
tons of protests and um activistpolitical movements, which we
didn't talk about that.
I know I've done too, it's toomuch.

(51:07):
Too much.
It's gonna have to have youback.
Well, great, perfect.
Um, but you can find that workif you want to see any of that
through the other underscoretwisted sister photos.
So awesome.
If you Google the one, you'llfind all three accounts, and you
can stay up to date on all thevarious debaucherous things I am
doing in the world.

SPEAKER_03 (51:23):
So awesome.
And uh again, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 (51:25):
Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 (51:26):
All right, you want to get out of here?

SPEAKER_00 (51:27):
I'm gonna be out of here.
Thank you very much.
That was wonderful to be here.

SPEAKER_03 (51:31):
Okay, and with that, that wraps up season seven of
the Bad Idea Social Clubpodcast.

SPEAKER_02 (51:38):
That's crazy, dude.
Anyways, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 (51:40):
Yeah, it's it's fucking wild.
I like I feel like we juststarted.

SPEAKER_02 (51:44):
I know.
What are we doing?

SPEAKER_03 (51:45):
I don't know.
But I do want to say thank youto everybody who's been
listening and watching.
Um, we had a little bit of aplatform shift.
Not really, I mean, we had somewe had some bullshit to deal
with with some like hosting andstuff.
So uh I I hope it didn't comeoff this way, but it was a
little bit uh rocky.
But I fucking loved all theconversations we had.

(52:07):
Um super thank you to AmyCarroll, Ryan Wasson, Hannah
Barry, Joel Hoekstra, um A B,Mark Stein, Luke Grill, Sarah
Pulver, and of course Ann EvansCop.

SPEAKER_02 (52:21):
And we've already started pre-production for
season eight.
We got um a few names on thelist for people we're gonna be
reaching out to, but we also gotplans for bonus episodes and
things that are gonna happen inthe interim before season eight.
So um just stay in touch withour socials, make sure you're
checking things out because wegot events we're planning.
We're just gonna be doing a lotof stuff and we want you to be a

(52:41):
part of it.

SPEAKER_03 (52:42):
Yeah, yeah, we're gonna be around.

SPEAKER_02 (52:43):
Just know I always want you there, period.
I love it.
Whoever you are, I want youthere.
All right.
Well, um, I it's almost like Idon't want to say goodbye to it.
This one was special.
I know.
Let's just keep it going.
And we gotta do it with y'all.

SPEAKER_03 (53:00):
We need your help, so let's do this.
If you or anyone you know hasbeen enjoying the podcast and
want to be a part of thisfucking thing that we're trying
to build here, reach out, saysomething.
You know what I mean?
We're always looking for greatpeople with interesting stories.
Uh, the only caveat, noshitheads.

SPEAKER_02 (53:16):
Done deal.

SPEAKER_03 (53:17):
Worst case scenario, we end up getting uh coffee or a
beer or something.
Hell yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (53:21):
Yeah, hell yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (53:23):
All right.
Well, we'll see ya.

SPEAKER_02 (53:27):
It's like the most Midwestern goodbye of a podcast
I've ever heard in my life.

unknown (53:35):
I can't even make them go away.

SPEAKER_03 (53:40):
Bad Idea Social Club is an independent podcast made
possible by merch sales,reviews, and listener support.
And it's created and hosted byme, graphic designer Ed McCall,
and co-hosted by photographerJoe Madison.
Music is noises by Mike Matesand the branches.
Get Bad Idea Social Clubwherever you get your podcast.