April 28, 2026 • 47 mins
Hannah Berry (artist, founder of Lions & Rabbits) sits down with Aaron McCall to talk about community, creativity, and the work happening between the cracks. She gets into turning art into real community impact, building something without a clear roadmap, and why creative people are often the ones holding solutions that nobody is listening to yet. They talk about collaboration, economic and community development, the tension between intention and execution, and how slowing down, letting go of control, and trusting the right people changed everything.
Keep up with Hanna Berry:
lionsandrabbits.com
IG: @bananasnhannahs
IG: @lionsandrabbits
Creative Mornings Grand Rapids
Monthly lecture series. Everyone's creative and everyone's welcome. Find your local chapter.
Merchants & Makers
West Michigan artists, makers, and small businesses. Shop local with food trucks and live music.
——
This episode is supported by:
Creative Mornings Grand Rapids
Merchants & Makers
——
Writer/Producer/Editor/Host:
Aaron McCall
aaronmccall.net
IG: @aaron_mccall
——
Co-Host/Sidekick/Photographer:
Joe Matteson
themattesons.co
IG: @joe_dustin
——
Music:
"Noises" by Mike Mains & The Branches
——
Support the Podcast:
Buy Merch
——
Follow Bad Idea Social Club:
badideasocialclub.com
IG: @badideasocialclub
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:37):
It's like that rest mentality.
I get it.
Like, we've dealt with all thisshit, but like, not to be
morbid, our houses aren't beingbombed.
So, like, kindly fuck off again.
SPEAKER_00 (00:49):
Getting part of him and all these noises in my head.
SPEAKER_04 (01:07):
You know, uh, something I love about parenting
is every once in a while you'llput on a shirt and something
like this falls out.
Isn't that awesome?
No.
You're telling me that if you'rehaving a rough morning, you
(01:27):
throw on your fucking undies,you go to put on your socks, and
this is attached to it, and thatdoesn't make your day.
Look at this.
SPEAKER_05 (01:34):
The little pom-pom.
Man, it feels a lot like when Ihave like my wife's hair in like
my t-shirt or something.
SPEAKER_04 (01:42):
Like, it just bothers me.
SPEAKER_05 (01:43):
It's gifts, they're gifts.
Oh, dude, I fucking love that.
Um, hey everybody, welcome backto Bad Idea Social Club.
My name is Aaron McCall.
And I'm Joe Madison.
This time I got to sit down withHannah Berry.
Uh, she's the founder of Lionsand Rabbits.
Uh, but more than that, she'ssomeone who knows how to turn
(02:06):
creativity into action.
Uh, Hannah doesn't really talkabout creativity like it belongs
in a gallery or or Instagramfeed, which obviously it does,
but she she talks about it likea force, something that connects
people, uh, changesneighborhoods, solves problems,
moves things forward when whennothing else seems to.
SPEAKER_04 (02:29):
Just like big impact stuff, which is awesome.
SPEAKER_05 (02:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And she's she's carrying aroundso much weight, but like it
honestly feels like and and andmaybe I'm projecting, or maybe
it, you know, I don't know if myread is valid, but like it seems
like it doesn't really botherher.
So so we talked about creativityas it relates to community
leadership uh and burnout, andand what happens when the work
(02:57):
starts asking more of you thanthan you ever meant to give.
Wow.
Um, but you but you but you keepshowing up anyways because
that's the mission, that's whatmatters.
SPEAKER_04 (03:09):
Right.
You know, when you're doingthings that are so heart-led and
heartfelt, it it's like you'repulling from a different energy
bank.
I'm just speaking for myself.
Yeah.
Um, you know, this podcast beinga really good example, I deeply
and profoundly believe in thisproject that we get to be a part
(03:31):
of in the fact that we get tofind a spot in a creative
community that is just sohealthy and so helpful, and just
again, it's just such acommunity that it's so much more
important than anything elsethat I could ever request from
it.
But it demands a lot from myfamily.
It demands a lot from mypersonal experience, and it asks
(03:53):
a lot that my family scheduleand and flow adjust accordingly,
and vice versa.
More so it's the podcastadjusting around my family.
SPEAKER_05 (04:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I I think what this thingis that we're doing or trying to
do, or however you want to saythat, is yeah, it's like it's
like the true definition of likea passion project.
Yes.
I love doing this, and and yeah,it's not a um it's not like a
monetary thing yet.
(04:24):
Um but it's you know what we aregaining uh from meeting all
these awesome people and andfinding our spot in in the
creative community and in thecreative scene is um I don't
know, man, it's special.
Yeah, it feels good.
SPEAKER_04 (04:41):
It is special, I agree.
SPEAKER_05 (04:42):
And I look at what Hannah's doing with with Lions
and Rabbits and the impact shehas, and it's like, man, if we
could if we could achieve evenjust Yes.
A little bit of that, um, I Iwould be so happy and say we did
what we came to do.
SPEAKER_04 (05:00):
Yeah.
Leading with your heart, you'regonna be left in a situation
where you're not asking yourselfwhat if, but you also have to be
very aware that those decisionshave a ripple effect on the
people around you.
SPEAKER_05 (05:11):
Yeah, for for for better or worse.
SPEAKER_04 (05:13):
Exactly.
Exactly.
All right, so before we dive in,don't forget to follow wherever
you're listening, leave afive-star review, and don't
forget to tell your friends.
SPEAKER_05 (05:23):
Also, this thing runs on merch sales, listener
support, and uh reviews.
So please go over to Bad IdeaSocial Cub, Bad Ideasocial
Club.com.
Uh, maybe buy something.
Shipping is free.
Can we have a little bad ideasocial cub mascot?
SPEAKER_00 (05:40):
Just a little cub.
SPEAKER_05 (05:42):
I'll draw I'll draw something out, but yeah, that's
totally the title, the Bad IdeaSocial Cub.
Um okay, that's all I got.
Here's uh here's my conversationwith Hannah.
SPEAKER_03 (05:53):
Yeah, I'm like disheveled Hannah.
SPEAKER_05 (06:02):
But dude, I'm so glad that we got to connect um
over Creative Mornings becauseif I'm being completely honest,
like I was a little bitintimidated to approach you
about yeah, I know.
It that's it's kind of my job aslike a as like a cis straight
white man to be intimidated by.
SPEAKER_01 (06:19):
Eliminate other people.
SPEAKER_05 (06:22):
Yeah, because I don't know, you have this like
strong presence, you're highlyrespected.
I think what softened me up alittle bit after getting to do
creative mornings with you is Iwas like, oh, she's not a
jawbreaker, she's an MM.
SPEAKER_02 (06:35):
Oh my god.
unknown (06:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:38):
I mean, yeah, I I like that.
SPEAKER_05 (06:40):
So so I want to know a little bit first about who you
actually are.
Um so so give me a little bit ofthe origin story.
SPEAKER_03 (06:48):
Aquam as a human?
SPEAKER_05 (06:49):
Yeah, where'd you come from?
SPEAKER_03 (06:51):
Okay.
I came from my mom and dad.
No, I'm just kidding.
Um, so my parents are originallyfrom the east side of the state.
Um, my siblings, I have an olderbrother, myself, and then a
five-year gap, a little brotherand little sister.
We grew up in Lowell before likeanything, no Meyer.
(07:13):
Yeah.
Hughes internet, like you knowwhat I mean?
Like tile up internet.
Yeah.
Um, but we lived on a river, solike we spent a lot of time
outside.
And I never really understoodhow much I care about nature
until I didn't have that.
Um, but we my parents are fromthe east side of the state, like
I said, and they were like theonly ones who came over here.
(07:33):
So we kind of melted into otherfamilies, and I would say that's
not very normal for a younger.
SPEAKER_05 (07:39):
What does that mean?
SPEAKER_03 (07:40):
Uh, like there's this friend group or that friend
group.
So it's like my parents tried tolike mesh in to those groups.
Okay.
But they never really had agroup.
So it was always like, we'regonna go hang out with those
families or these families, oryeah, whatever.
But then they would have like a4th of July party and there
would be hundreds of people.
(08:02):
Um, my dad's a mechanic and ownsa transmission repair shop and
was very well respected by a lotof older men, and that I was
like, oh, I have no idea thatthis exists.
But when we grew up in Lowell,it was like a 45, well, it still
is, it's like a 45 uh minutecommute for him to go to work.
So, like, once again, there's weweren't in that like 15-minute
(08:23):
city that exists.
Um, but then everybody was alsoon the east side of the state.
So we would always go do all ofour family events down there.
When I was in high school, I wasat Kent Skills Center and I went
for cosmetology.
So that was when I like reallyopened up my worldview.
I also then was like, man, thisis not what I want to do, but I
(08:47):
really want to go to college.
And I'm the first person in myfamily to go to college.
And at the same time, my mom andI were going to college.
SPEAKER_05 (08:54):
So interesting.
SPEAKER_03 (08:55):
Very interesting.
Uh, she went to nursing collegeand I went to art college,
right?
But I went to GRCC.
I had such a differentexperience because I lived in so
many different spaces that whenI really was like, oh, this is
what I want to do, I think Iwant to do education.
And it wasn't really that I wantto do education, it was probably
communication or so fastforward, I'm 20.
(09:20):
I was transferring from GRCC toKendall after having many
credits that it couldn'ttransfer, which is fine.
Oh, that's fine.
But which is fine.
But um I found out that I washaving a baby and I was like,
well, I have friends who've hadbabies.
I'm fine.
And I was in printmaking then,and then I had switched into art
(09:42):
education.
And I had switched into arteducation because I was like, I
don't know how to be aprintmaker and then have two
jobs and still do this.
SPEAKER_06 (09:50):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (09:50):
But I also had taught swimming lessons, worked
at a toy store, I got OutbackSteakhouse under my belt, worked
at the Anway Grand.
Now I'm at the Winchester with ababy.
And when I worked at theWinchester, I had Hayden, and
she was only like six months oldwhen I had had her.
Paul and Jess, who own theWinchester, they had a kid who
(10:11):
was only five months older, andthey're older than me.
And they were like, What are youdoing?
Like, who are you?
I'm like, I just love worldpeace and art and hair and like
color.
Like, I'm like, I don't reallyknow.
And so they, I had actuallyserved them a couple of times
and had no idea a couple timesand then knew the last time I
(10:33):
did.
Um, but when I had gone inthere, they're like, hey, if you
hate it here, will you tell usbefore you tell other people?
SPEAKER_02 (10:42):
I'm like, oh yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_03 (10:43):
Yeah, I can do that.
And honestly, that was like thetrajectory of everything that
I've been able to do.
The difference from like why Italked about like my siblings'
age gap is because my sister was13 when I had a baby and my baby
is 14.
SPEAKER_05 (10:56):
Oh, that's right.
SPEAKER_03 (10:57):
So that's when like it all full circles into
everything that I'm still doing.
But like the gap between some ofmy friends and me is the same
gap as my sister and I, is thesame gap as my sister and my
daughter.
So I think it's like thisintergenerational thing is what
I might just innately love anddo.
(11:18):
But throughout that, I've met somany people and everybody's been
like, What are you doing?
SPEAKER_02 (11:23):
And I'm like, I don't know.
SPEAKER_03 (11:24):
Right?
Like, I don't know, but I doknow this and this and this and
this, flying the plane up here.
And I think because I'm flyingthe plane up here, everybody's
landing their planes and they'remaking their points, right?
And through that, all of thecarts have kind of fallen in,
which would be worked at a bar.
Had somebody who was like, Don'tyou want to do something
(11:44):
different?
Why don't you run a bar?
I'm like, I went to school forthis, but I would make more
money here.
Can I make a community artcenter?
No, that wouldn't make money,but you could do this, this, and
this.
And so everybody very muchhelped me because I was in a
space where I still am veryyoung to be in.
And part of what I think is likethe most important part of that
(12:08):
is these young people are stillthe people who are leading me
too, right?
Like my little sister.
I'm like, and then she workedwith us for this many years.
So really everything that we'vedone is kind of, I would say,
family-oriented, was able toopen our gallery to so when you
say we in our, you're you'rewe're talking about lions and
rabbits.
Yes, yep.
(12:29):
Yeah.
So lions and rabbits was my LLCthat I painted under.
And the reason that I made anLLC is because I worked at the
Winchester and somebody waslike, you need an LLC if you're
gonna sell paintings.
And then fast forward, you canhang whatever you want here.
Okay, well, now you can havethis building and you can hang
earn it, but you have to rehabit.
Well, now you got to get aliquor license.
(12:50):
And the whole process has beeneverybody being like, This is
economic development, Hannah.
Your creativity can flourishwith both, but you are community
development.
You lead these things, andeconomic development will follow
it.
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_05 (13:06):
So, so it kind of sounds a little bit like what
lions and rabbits is communitydevelopment.
Kind of doesn't sound like thatwas the plan out of the gate.
SPEAKER_03 (13:16):
No, I was like, I want to be an art gallery that
hangs art and I want to haveevents inside.
And then the neighborhood that Iwas in was like, Well, you came
from a flourishing district.
And I'm like, in between, I havea lot to say in between that.
You can't do these shoppabledistricts when there's no place
to shop, and also there's noeconomic development in between.
(13:37):
So we were using the money thatwe had for the wedding venue to
then recycle back into publicart and all these things.
And so the creative communityreally came behind Creston and
was like, there might not be allof this money to do this, but
this is what we want to do.
And it was a pilot, which Iwould never call it.
It was real communitydevelopment in action that now
(14:00):
has led into economicdevelopment for so many other
people.
SPEAKER_05 (14:03):
Well, what is it about uh art and the and the
creative community around itthat keeps you um reinvesting
and elevating?
SPEAKER_03 (14:12):
I deeply believe in the 17 social global missions,
right?
Like there are 17 things thatcould happen and if we invested
in as a world that could changethe trajectory of the entire
world.
And a lot of times people cometo me and they're like, hey
(14:33):
Hannah, do you have a solutionfor solving this crisis?
And I'm like, I don't, but Iknow that there's a creative
person who does.
So for me, I'm like, why are weputting creative art, public
space, all of these things,culture, the word culture, into
one bucket when we could beputting it into this
(14:53):
free-flowing waterfall of whatthe reality of all of the work
that we're all doingcollectively can accomplish.
And I think creative leadershipis that portion.
So whether they want to makepublic art or change a curb cut
because it's going to solvetraffic dust, I'm like, no,
that's creativity.
But somebody has to think aboutit and actually do it first,
(15:15):
right?
SPEAKER_05 (15:16):
I kind of feel like right now artists, artists are
incredibly vulnerable betweensome of them.
Well, I mean, I I think as awhole, yeah.
Uh uh like even considering justfrom like an AI standpoint,
right?
I kind of feel like the world welive in is vulnerable right now,
too.
So I think it's probably moreimportant now than any point in
(15:39):
my life uh that artists have aplatform to use their voices.
And does that play into yourmotivation at all?
SPEAKER_03 (15:47):
Yeah, that's where I'm like zero poverty, ending
hunger.
What is land underwater?
What is land above water?
You know, like all of thosethings are the reason that
people are so upset or so happyright now.
And I'm sitting here being like,Some of these organizations have
four employees that are here tomake global social impact in a
(16:09):
replicable scale, and all thatis missing is actual capital to
ha make it happen.
That's not always the case.
Capital is not always the case,but what I continue to see
happen or I believe ishappening, is you have all these
cross-sector people that arelike, what's the solution?
(16:29):
What's the solution?
And you have all these creativepeople who kind of need to stand
back up, right?
And I'm like, yes, I know we'revulnerable and we need rest and
blah, blah, blah.
But what I continue to say is Idon't have, I'm 35.
I don't usually have problemswith women that are in their mid
(16:50):
to late 40s or above that.
It's this weird gap in between.
Women in their 60s and 70s wantto help me.
What is vulnerability in thatspace?
What is vulnerability in eachneighborhood with race,
ethnicity, all these things?
And what is that math equation?
That's where I'm like,creativity.
(17:11):
I don't know math that well, butI can tell you all these weird
gaps of missing data that wouldactually make a full story.
And that's if if someone deeply,deeply cares about someone's
opinion or what they're saying,then they're gonna put all of
those factors into it, andthey're not gonna be like, oh my
(17:33):
gosh, everybody who now has afriend who has been impacted by
X, then why?
I'm like, yeah, no, like Iworked at a chain restaurant
when ice was coming in when Iwas 17.
I remember that.
I will never forget that.
And now why are we so vulnerablefor it when we just never have
(17:59):
had that happen to us?
You know what I mean?
Okay, so we're talking aboutthat, we're talking about war,
we're talking about uhaffordable housing, restoration
of riverfront, place keepinginstead of place making.
And I'm like, can we askeveryone what the word culture
(18:23):
means and then what is arts andculture?
Because it's not a thing in thesame way that we continue to
talk about it as.
And so reformation of education,deeply believe in it.
Arts and culture work, workforcedevelopment, small business
association, deeply believe inall of it.
Can I do it?
(18:43):
No, but I can help get theplayers to the game.
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_05 (18:47):
You're a uh bridge, the glue.
SPEAKER_03 (18:48):
Right.
And I can't I can't stopanything and I can't start
anything by myself, but I cantry to get the right players in
the game.
SPEAKER_05 (18:57):
So in in Grand Rapids, how long have you been
doing this thing?
SPEAKER_03 (19:02):
I started Lions and Rabbids in 2016, but it was like
not doing any nonprofit work.
Well, we were doing nonprofitwork out of the wedding venue,
but we didn't start thenonprofit until 2022.
But also, it was like an artscollective starts a nonprofit
because we're like, hey,someone's gonna buy us this
building that we already have abuilding, but we need a bigger
(19:26):
one.
And so where it is now is whereI wanted it to be a very long
time ago, but that's where I'mGrand Rapids culture and what
its identification of what isGrand Rapids on a what is West
Michigan culture.
Yeah.
And where do they wantinnovation?
SPEAKER_05 (19:45):
Right.
And well, and you and in 2026,your your reach has gone quite a
bit outside of Grand Rapids.
SPEAKER_03 (19:54):
But it's because creatives n need and desire work
and they know that they canculturally shift everything
visually.
unknown (20:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (20:03):
What do you have going on in in uh in Detroit?
SPEAKER_03 (20:06):
We have a really cool project in Detroit.
Um, the American Cancer Societyhas a walk by Central Station,
and then there are a few otherpartners that we've been
partnering with, like DetroitMonth of Design, uh the Northe
Neighborhood Associations, andet cetera.
But the whole project startedover there's this vacant
building, nobody wants topurchase it for the price.
(20:28):
Can we start to activate it tobring attention instead of
blight beauty?
Um, and Aya was an artist wholived up here.
She now lives in Dearborn andshe has a collective, it's
called the Dearborn Fine ArtsCollective.
She has like over 200 artiststhat she Oh wow.
Oh, she's she's badass.
Like, I'm like, talk aboutrallying.
(20:49):
You should meet Aya.
And so that's where I'm like,there are people who can do all
of this work everywhere.
We don't have to do all of it.
But Aya was, I want to doplacemaking now, right?
Like, what do how do I get intothis field?
And when we were walking throughsome of the areas, I'm like,
look at the cracks in thesidewalk, look at this, this is
this.
Who are the partners we caninvolve?
(21:09):
And so what has transpired isthere's 116 windows that will be
painted with cancer survivorsfrom Corktown area or the
surrounding neighborhoods.
Oh, incredible.
They're uh by local artists,photographed by a photographer
that lives like literally rightthere.
Um you'll be able to QR code tolike window seven, and it might
be like Sati Smith.
(21:31):
And you'll be able to hear herstory, the story of the artist
that painted her.
We have a massive mural goingup, and it is so good.
Ivan Montoya is the artist.
Um, he also has an understudywho's 14 that's gonna be working
on it with him because he'strying to develop this like
five-stage mural program.
SPEAKER_05 (21:49):
Oh, that's incredible.
SPEAKER_03 (21:50):
The neighborhood association distributes over
220,000 pounds of food out oftheir kitchen, is not paid to do
the work.
It's her and her sister, andthen volunteers.
And so she's gonna have likethis giant food waste dinner
with all these creatives andcommunity members.
So the whole goal of it is likeyou can keep your place.
(22:11):
It's your place.
You can keep it, you can playsnake in it, you can do, but
like at the end of the day, themissing gap is facilitators that
have the desire to listen and dothe change that people want to
see.
SPEAKER_05 (22:23):
So, is that kind of how you're scaling, kind of
without losing the soul of thething?
SPEAKER_03 (22:28):
Yeah, I mean, grown up is cool, but like creatives
are cooler.
Like, that's where I'm like, Ijust really deeply care about
creativity as the highest form.
Of thinking.
And I know that creative peoplecan solve all these problems.
And I know that even if you runa neighborhood association, it
doesn't mean you're notcreative.
If you're distributing 220,000pounds of food out of your
(22:48):
house, you are probably one ofthe most fucking creative people
that I've ever met andsustainable people that I've
ever met, whether it's in foodsustainability, economic
sustainability, desire, right?
So how do we continue yourplatform with economic
development because you are thecommunity?
The community is you, and noweconomic development can come
(23:10):
in.
SPEAKER_05 (23:10):
What do you what do you think this kind of thing
means to the to the artistinvolved?
And not only that, but like alsolike the communities that
they're leaving their mark on.
SPEAKER_03 (23:17):
I mean, every I I I can't speak for every artist,
and that's where I continue orcreative, right?
But I can sit in a room with acompany that will give us money
for designers and talk to themabout what an artist is, and
then an artist is a designer.
And then I can get them to thecommon understanding that
creativity is the highest formof thinking.
(23:40):
So what's your socioeconomicstatus?
How many opportunities have youhad?
Right?
Like everyone's on a differentplatform.
And the biggest thing that I cansay is there are thought leaders
throughout the region that I'mlike, just listen to them
because they can tell you whatthis population has asked and
(24:01):
desired for.
SPEAKER_05 (24:02):
Dude, you're carrying a lot of weight.
SPEAKER_03 (24:04):
Everyone is carrying a lot of weight.
I, if you listen to some of thestories I listen to while I get
to have really great pasta,that's it's shitty.
Like, that's where I'm like,it's not just me, there are
people that work with us and inbetween all spaces.
And I'm like, here's a solution.
Go tap in.
So a lot of my work is I'msorry, this is happening, but
(24:28):
here's my idea or someone else'sidea that I've heard that I
think might be a solution.
So I'm in a lot of solutionsolving spaces where I don't
listen to someone's day-to-daylife ever outside of the big
picture of my neighbor has this,this land is this, this person
(24:50):
owns this.
It's a lot of connection work.
But at the end of the day, I'mnot carrying the weight of
somebody going hungry the sameway as this person is, and she
is not getting paid.
And so that's where my biggestthing is is like if you're not
paying the people who areworking, then you're doing a
(25:12):
disservice to your entirecommunity.
And so if I can get her paid,get her five fridges from
fridges sitting in the ground,like literally just sitting
there, then get the fridges.
If there are 90 spaces for freetutoring, because I heard about
it and I know seven people thatI work with or bartend with or
(25:34):
or or that need free tutoringfor their kids, or someone
else's kid needs it, it's aboutcommunication and knowledge
sharing.
And that's where I'm like, whatis knowledge sharing at this
point?
There's so much communicationand there's no actual action
behind the communications.
SPEAKER_05 (25:52):
This episode is supported by Creative Mornings
Grand Rapids, our local chapterin the world's largest
face-to-face creative community.
Creative Mornings believeseveryone is creative and
everyone is welcome.
Their monthly lecture series isfree and spans over 240 cities
across 69 countries.
Visit Creative Mornings.com tosee what's going on with your
local chapter.
And by Review, West Michigan'sArts and Entertainment Guide.
(26:13):
Find out what's going on in theworld of local music, art,
dining, events, and more withprint magazines at over 500
locations, a weekly newsletter,and online stories at
reviewwm.com.
And by Merchants and Makers, acollective of local artists,
makers, and small businesses,Merchants and Makers puts on
markets across West Michiganconnecting people with real
(26:34):
artists and makers at eventsthat include food trucks, live
music, and local shopping.
Visit merchantsandmakers.com forinformation on upcoming events
and how to get involved.
SPEAKER_03 (26:44):
And so if you could have a placemaking plan where
everyone's like, this is exactlywhat I want my spot to be, and
you don't have to call it aplacemaking plan.
You can put anywhere that youwant in between, whether you're
happy or sad or whatever inbetween.
But this is what our communitysays that they want, and it is
not done by the city, and not athousand people are interviewed.
And this is not Grand Rapids,this is everywhere.
A thousand people in a massivecity interviewed for something,
(27:09):
28 listening sessions, and onlya thousand people came.
There's your problem.
That's not the plan, right?
So you're paying your communityambassadors to do the work.
And when they have thosecommunity plans, then they
should be able to go to all thecorporate people and go, I'm not
telling you that you have toinvest 1.4% of your taxes into
(27:30):
X.
I'm showing you that this iswhat the community wants before
we have a public hearing.
Do you want to do it?
Okay, you're invested in,welcome in.
Okay, you're not invested incommunity.
They said that they just aregonna buy.
SPEAKER_06 (27:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:45):
You do your thing.
So that's where it's a bigger,bigger, bigger picture for me
than murals and events.
SPEAKER_05 (27:54):
Lions and Rabbits has changed significantly since
it started.
SPEAKER_03 (27:58):
Or we like kind of figured out the words to say.
Or like we still don't.
Like I'm like, I have this likeRoy G.
Biv thing.
You've got red people who areconnection and trust.
You have yellow people who arecreative, you have blue people
who are growth.
When you mix growth andcreativity, it makes green,
which is economic prosperity.
When you mix red, which istrust, connection, whatever, and
(28:22):
creativity, yellow, it makesorange.
It's healthy spaces.
So now you have healthy spacesand economic development.
So everybody wins.
It's a recyclable fund.
And then I'm like, well, all Ihad to do is use color theory to
find figure out economicdevelopment.
And that is insane, right?
Like it's insane.
I'm sitting in rooms.
I'm sitting in rooms where I'mlike, did I just make this
(28:43):
membership buy-in thing for acommunity investment fund?
What is a CDFI?
Oh, you guys should be a CDFI.
So like the light switch hasbeen activated, but real estate
has always been in the back ofmy mind.
And I it's not because I want toinvest in real estate, it's
because I like constructionwork.
I love public art because Iliked doing construction work
(29:06):
and I love art.
So it's like, yeah, it's it'sthat cross-fusion, that
cross-sector where I'm like, Idon't know what I like more, but
I now can figure out how to makeit make money.
And when you can make it makemoney, and the community is
behind it, then the community ismaking the money, right?
So their money.
(29:26):
Which then this chick doesn'twork for free out of her
kitchen.
She has an incubator kitchenwith a serve window.
SPEAKER_05 (29:32):
Right.
And speaking of working forfree, like I feel like that's
why I have this like love-haterelationship with like art
competitions and uh likecontests and shit, like when
people put out like submit yourwhatever the fuck for exposure
or whatever bullshit.
SPEAKER_03 (29:53):
But it's like we'll start with anything that you
submit onto someone else'splatform is then they're owned
by them.
So that is where I starteverything.
SPEAKER_05 (30:02):
That should be enough to say don't fucking do
it, don't play.
SPEAKER_03 (30:05):
Even an RFQ or a request for what is your work, I
can then go reshow your work asan organization.
That's why I'm like deeply,deeply engaged in activism for
artists.
Because if a Lamborghini isneeding a light installation and
someone has to be on an NDA forit and they can't show that
(30:26):
work, I don't think that'swrong.
Because I think that they, asLamborghini paid for them to do
that, public space is completelydifferent.
So why public space is paid forand how it's paid for needs to
be very, very pressed on peoplewho are using it for marketing
advantage.
Right.
So that's where that publicartist who wishes that they were
(30:49):
in public space might not beable to be in public space
because their portfolio doesn'tshowcase it.
They can make the exact samething two more times or
something different or whatever,and be able to mass produce a
different quality that nobodyelse can have because they had
that capital from that privatecompany.
But that's the opposite fromsomebody who is a graffiti
(31:10):
artist that everyone's like, ohmy god, I love this city because
it has graffiti and it I feel socool, right?
That's like how gentrificationstarted.
So that's where I'm like, okay,so now if you want to go put
that car there, then how is thatgraffiti artist paid for your
gentrification?
SPEAKER_05 (31:31):
Fuck.
SPEAKER_03 (31:33):
So don't submit for free.
Don't don't ever.
SPEAKER_05 (31:38):
I fucking love that.
Thank you for saying that.
Right.
I fucking love that.
SPEAKER_03 (31:41):
Which is why I think that's why Lions and Rabbits
exists, because I'm likebulldogs, if somebody can just
create, like let them justcreate.
SPEAKER_05 (31:50):
Let's talk about balance for a minute.
Okay.
Do you have any?
SPEAKER_03 (31:54):
I think balance is an interesting word.
Um, I like to research it inother languages.
I even if I wasn't at work, Iwould go to an art museum and
travel.
So I once again, that's what Ibelieve culture is.
I believe culture is immersingyourself in other people's
(32:15):
experiences.
And the fact that I get to dothat for my job and hopefully be
able to represent it enough tobe able to move things forward
is such a privilege and for myfamily to be able to have that
too.
Right.
Like my kid plays piano, I don'tknow how to play piano.
But I've learned more from thatthan I did in my own dance when
(32:40):
I was in whatever same ages,right?
But then I also have learnedintergenerationally more from
that than anything.
So like when you're at home, ifyou don't have those things that
are continuing to pulse, then ofcourse there's no such thing as
balance because you're bored.
I'm not bored.
I'm never bored.
(33:00):
I have a full life, and I'm verysorry for people who don't have
a full life.
And if I get the privilege toturn stuff off, which I do,
that's not something thathappens for almost anybody.
Like, literally, what is it,like four percent of people in
the entire world have been on anairplane?
SPEAKER_05 (33:21):
Really?
SPEAKER_03 (33:22):
I think it was something like that.
SPEAKER_05 (33:23):
Yeah, that's wild.
SPEAKER_03 (33:24):
Yeah.
So those that's where I gostatistically, we can all kindly
fuck off for seriously.
Like, I'm like, holy shit,America.
SPEAKER_05 (33:33):
Well, at what point, like what version of Lions and
Rabbits did you look at andyou're like, okay, this might
this might work.
SPEAKER_03 (33:40):
No.
SPEAKER_05 (33:41):
Really?
SPEAKER_03 (33:41):
I would say um 2025.
Like I had to slow down so muchin 2024, 2025 to be like, this
needs to exist, this needs toexist, you don't have to do
that, this person can do that.
You go give this away, you takewhat you won't receive and chill
the fuck out for a little bit.
(34:02):
Yeah.
And it's the best thing that'shappened to me.
But I also was essentially partof a collective as the financial
leader because I have the LLC orthe nonprofit with all these
older people helping me.
Right.
And then go back to, but if I ammy innate creative, is this what
(34:23):
I want?
Because the only reason that Istarted to do this is because
this is what we all wanted.
And so that's where I go backand forth between does it
actually make sense?
I don't know.
Like long term, I'm like anonprofit should be able to
dissolve because the service isdone.
(34:44):
There's a mission, there's avision, and it's solved.
And that is a very, verydifferent view than economic
development, right?
So I think that is the bestreality, right?
Is when these missions aresolved, when these things
happen, however it folds intowhatever ethrial pixie dust,
(35:08):
right?
Like it doesn't fucking matterto me.
It just matters that the peoplewho deeply care have the
solutions, and it's theirsolutions with their chair at
their table.
SPEAKER_05 (35:20):
Anything else we should talk about before we go
topic hopping?
I am gonna adjust this camerareal quick.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (35:31):
Zip it, lock it, put it in your pocket.
SPEAKER_05 (35:36):
All right, let's go topic hopping.
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (35:38):
Sounds like Hannah.
unknown (35:40):
What?
SPEAKER_03 (35:43):
Rebel.
SPEAKER_05 (35:46):
Uh when you're gone, what do you hope people say
about you?
I should have warned of the ofthe TR shit.
SPEAKER_02 (35:52):
I should have she's fun.
SPEAKER_05 (35:57):
I love that.
SPEAKER_02 (35:58):
That was fun.
That was wild.
SPEAKER_05 (36:01):
That's so good.
Um, finish the thought.
Creativity requires consistencyand energy.
SPEAKER_03 (36:08):
I think uh once again, it's like that rest
mentality.
I get it.
Like, we've dealt with all thisshit, but like not to be morbid,
our houses aren't being bombed.
So, like, kindly fuck off again.
So energy will create the changethat you want to see.
SPEAKER_05 (36:25):
What would your last meal be?
SPEAKER_03 (36:27):
Oh man, I would say I would have some buttered
chicken for sure, not superspicy.
I would have an agroni, a saladwith balsamic vinaigrette, and
(36:48):
probably like two cookieskillets.
Oh, dude, a fucking cookieskillet with the ice cream and-
I was gonna say it might have tobe like a chocolate chunky Ben
and Jerry's, I don't know whatthe name is, kind of one.
I don't know.
There's this really good fallIPA though that make that uh
Schwartz makes too that I jamon.
SPEAKER_05 (37:10):
What one is that?
SPEAKER_03 (37:11):
Just called fall IPA.
Fall IPA.
I actually don't know if it'sactually called that, but it's
it's a pure Michigan fall IPA.
Great.
So I don't think it has I thinkit has a name.
It's called fall IPA.
SPEAKER_05 (37:22):
I love it.
That's the name.
SPEAKER_03 (37:23):
Fall into IPAs.
SPEAKER_05 (37:25):
Nobody knows.
There's no way of knowing.
SPEAKER_03 (37:27):
Leads.
SPEAKER_05 (37:29):
Uh Hannah, what is the best or the worst advice
you've ever received?
SPEAKER_03 (37:34):
The worst advice is um to lean into someone's
definition of femininity becauseI think it fucks women up really
bad because that could mean yourhair's done, you're wearing
heels, you look and care aboutyourself, you care about what
(37:56):
other people think you looklike.
Yeah, no fucking way.
SPEAKER_05 (38:00):
I kind of feel like, and maybe the this is whatever.
This is gonna sound weird comingfrom like a dude talking about
femininity, but like it.
I I I would imagine that as assoon as somebody starts adhering
to somebody else's idea offemininity, like you start
losing yourself.
SPEAKER_03 (38:19):
Think about you don't even have to talk about
femininity, you could talk aboutcreativity.
Are you designing something foryourself or are you designing
something for your client,right?
That's not cooperation, right?
If you're designing somethingfor a client, you're taking
their thoughts and translatingthem.
If you can't do that, that's notyour client's work, that's your
work.
So it's the same thing.
(38:41):
You could go into I'm building acar and it's supposed to be this
way, but it's not, right?
Like everything, every form ofthinking isn't acknowledged all
of the time, and there could bea better solution than anybody
actually knows.
But there is always somethingthat's going to be an underdog
(39:01):
that is like groundhoggingpeople back down.
SPEAKER_05 (39:03):
Right.
What would your walk-up song be?
SPEAKER_03 (39:08):
Uh doses and mimosas.
SPEAKER_05 (39:10):
I don't know what.
Sing it to me.
SPEAKER_03 (39:12):
Oh no, I don't sing.
That's anyone.
SPEAKER_02 (39:15):
I am not a karaoke queen.
I am no fucking way.
No way.
SPEAKER_05 (39:20):
Yeah, that would have been my answer too.
Yeah.
Um good.
SPEAKER_02 (39:24):
Not good because I don't think that you can sing,
but I'm like, no, don't hurteveryone.
SPEAKER_03 (39:27):
I can't.
Don't hurt everyone.
SPEAKER_02 (39:30):
I'm definitely not gonna record it.
SPEAKER_05 (39:32):
Yes, I mean.
Uh what makes you feel most likeyourself?
SPEAKER_03 (39:36):
Colors and patterns.
Like when I go somewhere and I'mlike, man, my socks and my shoes
match that floor, or thatpattern on that wall matches
that sunscape, like matchingrealities is like my favorite
thing ever.
That's the coolest.
I also'm like one of thosepeople, and I don't know if this
is actually a thing, but Inoticed it when I was young, and
(39:59):
I didn't know that I had ADHDuntil I was older, but I
everyone knew, but we didn't wedidn't know.
I'm a team makes sense, but likeI register color before I
register objects.
I'll be like, that's black,that's black, that's black.
Everything is this, and it'slike part of having a
photographic memory.
So that's where I'm like, thereare black lines over there.
(40:22):
There's this, this, this, andthis, these lines are facing
that way.
So I really think verygeometrically, and I'm not
math-oriented.
So when it comes to colortheory, it's like once again,
I'm like, man, I think I cansolve the problem through color
theory.
SPEAKER_05 (40:35):
Oh, that kind of makes sense now.
Weird.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (40:38):
I'm like, patterns and patterns and patterns.
And I was like, what are youwearing?
Mom's like, Hannah.
And I'm like, is it bad?
She's like, you're going to meetwith a foundation.
I'm like, but it shows that Icare.
And she's like, no, it lookslike you didn't get dressed
today.
Like, like, seriously, I'm like,I purposely wore these red shoes
because this has red right here.
And she's like, okay.
(40:58):
But then my other friend waslike, I see it.
SPEAKER_05 (41:01):
So I love that.
So, so how are you showing up toa meeting with like a
foundation?
Are you like, this is this isme, this is what you get.
SPEAKER_03 (41:09):
I went to lunch with several wealthy people today and
said, and here's Hannah when Iwalked in.
Yeah, no.
I mean, that's where I'm like, Ido feel like my work is the most
important now because I amauthentic.
I would say in 2024, I was like,what am I doing?
(41:30):
And that was or I ended 2024.
I'm like, this is never gonnawork.
And I was like, well, it's notworking because you're you're
chasing a goal with whomeverwants to chase that goal when
you know all of the people thatyou want to chase a goal.
You just have to stand, you justhave to put your two feet on the
ground and shut the fuck up fora second and just breathe
(41:52):
through it and then let themtalk and then let somebody else
talk in between or introducethem, right?
Like, and that's that connectionspace where you're like, I'm not
gonna solve all the problems,but you can keep going because
there's somebody who solved yourproblem.
SPEAKER_05 (42:08):
Yeah.
Do you have any regrets?
SPEAKER_03 (42:11):
Oh, yeah.
Uh doing projects too fastwithout partners 110%.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (42:18):
Just burning your ass out.
SPEAKER_03 (42:20):
No, thinking that my mind is in the right social
mission without having the fulloutcome.
So, like, I will go to the mostbasic thing, painting storm
drains.
If there is not a storm draincatch underneath that drain, and
we are putting paint in thatdrain, the fuck are we doing?
Talk about George Floyd andcivil unrest.
Who are your partners?
(42:41):
Or is it just someone's payingfor everyone to be paid?
Uh no, that's not a socialmission.
Well, it's a part of it, butthere is so much more impact
that could be done.
And that's why I'm like, I willwait two years and raise this
much money for this one buildingfor this one cause, because I
know that bringing this manypeople together around one
vacant building will make anactual change.
(43:04):
And whether or not it's thechange we all thought we were
gonna see, it's gonna be thechange we wish to see in some
kind of way.
So that is where I'm like anendowment at Lions and Rabbits
in 2022 would have been thedumbest thing anybody could have
done.
But there are people who wantedto do it because it was cool and
sexy and whatever in between,where I'm like, they can still
(43:28):
go away.
The people who are now likesustainability, creativity.
That's where I'm like all day.
All day come in, say whateveryou want about me to me, find a
solution.
SPEAKER_05 (43:41):
That's so great.
I have one more question foryou.
unknown (43:43):
Okay.
SPEAKER_05 (43:44):
Are you okay?
SPEAKER_03 (43:45):
I'm so good.
Are you okay?
Yeah, I'm pretty good.
Pretty good.
Yeah, I have my days.
I would say I'm living life,like I said earlier, to the
fullest at this point.
I would say I was not okay in2024, 2025.
And that's where I watch all myfriends and I'm like, how do we
get them back up?
Death is inevitable in so manylevels, and I've lost people way
(44:09):
too young.
Trauma, actually, I would saystark inequity, sense of
belonging, collective trauma.
If you can solve those threesocial issues, then you can have
innate happiness.
And so where I know I can do mywork, I know I can live, is in
(44:29):
between spaces where a lot ofother people can't.
And so if we can continue topiggyback off of each other,
then we're good.
But I'm not afraid to findpeople to piggyback.
Back off of.
And that's where I'm like, I'mgood now.
I was not there in 2024.
I'm like, yeah, you're good.
Let's bring you in.
You're not good.
Let's cast surreal.
Right.
(44:49):
Like there's somebody who helpsyou.
SPEAKER_05 (44:51):
And I I admire the absolute shit out of everything
you're doing.
I like I like like I hope yourealize that you're like do
that, like you're making actualchange and that things are
happening.
And um I do it's uh uhappreciated on so many levels
from so many perspectives.
SPEAKER_03 (45:08):
So it's a it's teams, like it's not just then
that's where I'm like, we'resmall, but like the mighty teams
are the ones who are like,anybody see that neighborhood
association who did all thatwork?
SPEAKER_01 (45:19):
Can we paint that basketball court with Edwin for
this much money?
SPEAKER_03 (45:22):
That's where I'm like, it's collaboration, and I
deeply believe in the creativesthat are doing the work,
regardless of what their job is.
And my team, our team, would notbe working there if they didn't
feel the same way.
You know what I mean?
Like nobody does it becausethey're gonna get rich.
Right.
Like they're like, no, thisactually will change the world,
(45:44):
and then we'll have equity.
And then we and so, like, for usto understand that it's not
gonna potentially shift in ourlifetime is a different mindset
than a Christian mindset of WestMichigan.
So that's where I go back to Idon't like that rapturism isn't
(46:05):
in my mind.
It's like make a better life foryour kid, make sure that your
kid is the better version ofyou.
That's it.
That's all you can do.
And that's where it's like youjust have to leave it.
And it's not that you're leavingpeople because you're not
leaving people, you areunderstanding what you wake up
for.
SPEAKER_05 (46:23):
I don't even know what to say.
SPEAKER_03 (46:25):
Everyone to have hope.
Everyone should have hopebecause everyone has had their
rock bottom, but yeah, someone'shad a worse.
SPEAKER_05 (46:32):
Um, before we get out of here, uh, where can
people find you?
SPEAKER_03 (46:36):
Lionsandrabbits.com.
Instagram.
SPEAKER_05 (46:40):
I love it.
unknown (46:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (46:41):
All right, dude.
Hannah, thank you again.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you.
Let's get out of here.
All right.
SPEAKER_00 (46:46):
Chicken Todd of being all these noises in my
head.
I can't seem to make them goaway.
SPEAKER_05 (46:54):
Bad Idea Social Club is an independent podcast made
possible by merch sales,reviews, and listener support.
And is created and hosted by me,graphic designer Aaron McCall,
and co-hosted by photographerJoe Madison.
Music is noises by Mike Maids inthe branches.
Get Bad Idea Social Clubwherever you get your podcasts.
It's like that rest mentality.
I get it.
Like, we've dealt with all thisshit, but like, not to be
morbid, our houses aren't beingbombed.
So, like, kindly fuck off again.
SPEAKER_00 (00:49):
Getting part of him and all these noises in my head.
SPEAKER_04 (01:07):
You know, uh, something I love about parenting
is every once in a while you'llput on a shirt and something
like this falls out.
Isn't that awesome?
No.
You're telling me that if you'rehaving a rough morning, you
(01:27):
throw on your fucking undies,you go to put on your socks, and
this is attached to it, and thatdoesn't make your day.
Look at this.
SPEAKER_05 (01:34):
The little pom-pom.
Man, it feels a lot like when Ihave like my wife's hair in like
my t-shirt or something.
SPEAKER_04 (01:42):
Like, it just bothers me.
SPEAKER_05 (01:43):
It's gifts, they're gifts.
Oh, dude, I fucking love that.
Um, hey everybody, welcome backto Bad Idea Social Club.
My name is Aaron McCall.
And I'm Joe Madison.
This time I got to sit down withHannah Berry.
Uh, she's the founder of Lionsand Rabbits.
Uh, but more than that, she'ssomeone who knows how to turn
(02:06):
creativity into action.
Uh, Hannah doesn't really talkabout creativity like it belongs
in a gallery or or Instagramfeed, which obviously it does,
but she she talks about it likea force, something that connects
people, uh, changesneighborhoods, solves problems,
moves things forward when whennothing else seems to.
SPEAKER_04 (02:29):
Just like big impact stuff, which is awesome.
SPEAKER_05 (02:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And she's she's carrying aroundso much weight, but like it
honestly feels like and and andmaybe I'm projecting, or maybe
it, you know, I don't know if myread is valid, but like it seems
like it doesn't really botherher.
So so we talked about creativityas it relates to community
leadership uh and burnout, andand what happens when the work
(02:57):
starts asking more of you thanthan you ever meant to give.
Wow.
Um, but you but you but you keepshowing up anyways because
that's the mission, that's whatmatters.
SPEAKER_04 (03:09):
Right.
You know, when you're doingthings that are so heart-led and
heartfelt, it it's like you'repulling from a different energy
bank.
I'm just speaking for myself.
Yeah.
Um, you know, this podcast beinga really good example, I deeply
and profoundly believe in thisproject that we get to be a part
(03:31):
of in the fact that we get tofind a spot in a creative
community that is just sohealthy and so helpful, and just
again, it's just such acommunity that it's so much more
important than anything elsethat I could ever request from
it.
But it demands a lot from myfamily.
It demands a lot from mypersonal experience, and it asks
(03:53):
a lot that my family scheduleand and flow adjust accordingly,
and vice versa.
More so it's the podcastadjusting around my family.
SPEAKER_05 (04:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I I think what this thingis that we're doing or trying to
do, or however you want to saythat, is yeah, it's like it's
like the true definition of likea passion project.
Yes.
I love doing this, and and yeah,it's not a um it's not like a
monetary thing yet.
(04:24):
Um but it's you know what we aregaining uh from meeting all
these awesome people and andfinding our spot in in the
creative community and in thecreative scene is um I don't
know, man, it's special.
Yeah, it feels good.
SPEAKER_04 (04:41):
It is special, I agree.
SPEAKER_05 (04:42):
And I look at what Hannah's doing with with Lions
and Rabbits and the impact shehas, and it's like, man, if we
could if we could achieve evenjust Yes.
A little bit of that, um, I Iwould be so happy and say we did
what we came to do.
SPEAKER_04 (05:00):
Yeah.
Leading with your heart, you'regonna be left in a situation
where you're not asking yourselfwhat if, but you also have to be
very aware that those decisionshave a ripple effect on the
people around you.
SPEAKER_05 (05:11):
Yeah, for for for better or worse.
SPEAKER_04 (05:13):
Exactly.
Exactly.
All right, so before we dive in,don't forget to follow wherever
you're listening, leave afive-star review, and don't
forget to tell your friends.
SPEAKER_05 (05:23):
Also, this thing runs on merch sales, listener
support, and uh reviews.
So please go over to Bad IdeaSocial Cub, Bad Ideasocial
Club.com.
Uh, maybe buy something.
Shipping is free.
Can we have a little bad ideasocial cub mascot?
SPEAKER_00 (05:40):
Just a little cub.
SPEAKER_05 (05:42):
I'll draw I'll draw something out, but yeah, that's
totally the title, the Bad IdeaSocial Cub.
Um okay, that's all I got.
Here's uh here's my conversationwith Hannah.
SPEAKER_03 (05:53):
Yeah, I'm like disheveled Hannah.
SPEAKER_05 (06:02):
But dude, I'm so glad that we got to connect um
over Creative Mornings becauseif I'm being completely honest,
like I was a little bitintimidated to approach you
about yeah, I know.
It that's it's kind of my job aslike a as like a cis straight
white man to be intimidated by.
SPEAKER_01 (06:19):
Eliminate other people.
SPEAKER_05 (06:22):
Yeah, because I don't know, you have this like
strong presence, you're highlyrespected.
I think what softened me up alittle bit after getting to do
creative mornings with you is Iwas like, oh, she's not a
jawbreaker, she's an MM.
SPEAKER_02 (06:35):
Oh my god.
unknown (06:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:38):
I mean, yeah, I I like that.
SPEAKER_05 (06:40):
So so I want to know a little bit first about who you
actually are.
Um so so give me a little bit ofthe origin story.
SPEAKER_03 (06:48):
Aquam as a human?
SPEAKER_05 (06:49):
Yeah, where'd you come from?
SPEAKER_03 (06:51):
Okay.
I came from my mom and dad.
No, I'm just kidding.
Um, so my parents are originallyfrom the east side of the state.
Um, my siblings, I have an olderbrother, myself, and then a
five-year gap, a little brotherand little sister.
We grew up in Lowell before likeanything, no Meyer.
(07:13):
Yeah.
Hughes internet, like you knowwhat I mean?
Like tile up internet.
Yeah.
Um, but we lived on a river, solike we spent a lot of time
outside.
And I never really understoodhow much I care about nature
until I didn't have that.
Um, but we my parents are fromthe east side of the state, like
I said, and they were like theonly ones who came over here.
(07:33):
So we kind of melted into otherfamilies, and I would say that's
not very normal for a younger.
SPEAKER_05 (07:39):
What does that mean?
SPEAKER_03 (07:40):
Uh, like there's this friend group or that friend
group.
So it's like my parents tried tolike mesh in to those groups.
Okay.
But they never really had agroup.
So it was always like, we'regonna go hang out with those
families or these families, oryeah, whatever.
But then they would have like a4th of July party and there
would be hundreds of people.
(08:02):
Um, my dad's a mechanic and ownsa transmission repair shop and
was very well respected by a lotof older men, and that I was
like, oh, I have no idea thatthis exists.
But when we grew up in Lowell,it was like a 45, well, it still
is, it's like a 45 uh minutecommute for him to go to work.
So, like, once again, there's weweren't in that like 15-minute
(08:23):
city that exists.
Um, but then everybody was alsoon the east side of the state.
So we would always go do all ofour family events down there.
When I was in high school, I wasat Kent Skills Center and I went
for cosmetology.
So that was when I like reallyopened up my worldview.
I also then was like, man, thisis not what I want to do, but I
(08:47):
really want to go to college.
And I'm the first person in myfamily to go to college.
And at the same time, my mom andI were going to college.
SPEAKER_05 (08:54):
So interesting.
SPEAKER_03 (08:55):
Very interesting.
Uh, she went to nursing collegeand I went to art college,
right?
But I went to GRCC.
I had such a differentexperience because I lived in so
many different spaces that whenI really was like, oh, this is
what I want to do, I think Iwant to do education.
And it wasn't really that I wantto do education, it was probably
communication or so fastforward, I'm 20.
(09:20):
I was transferring from GRCC toKendall after having many
credits that it couldn'ttransfer, which is fine.
Oh, that's fine.
But which is fine.
But um I found out that I washaving a baby and I was like,
well, I have friends who've hadbabies.
I'm fine.
And I was in printmaking then,and then I had switched into art
(09:42):
education.
And I had switched into arteducation because I was like, I
don't know how to be aprintmaker and then have two
jobs and still do this.
SPEAKER_06 (09:50):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (09:50):
But I also had taught swimming lessons, worked
at a toy store, I got OutbackSteakhouse under my belt, worked
at the Anway Grand.
Now I'm at the Winchester with ababy.
And when I worked at theWinchester, I had Hayden, and
she was only like six months oldwhen I had had her.
Paul and Jess, who own theWinchester, they had a kid who
(10:11):
was only five months older, andthey're older than me.
And they were like, What are youdoing?
Like, who are you?
I'm like, I just love worldpeace and art and hair and like
color.
Like, I'm like, I don't reallyknow.
And so they, I had actuallyserved them a couple of times
and had no idea a couple timesand then knew the last time I
(10:33):
did.
Um, but when I had gone inthere, they're like, hey, if you
hate it here, will you tell usbefore you tell other people?
SPEAKER_02 (10:42):
I'm like, oh yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_03 (10:43):
Yeah, I can do that.
And honestly, that was like thetrajectory of everything that
I've been able to do.
The difference from like why Italked about like my siblings'
age gap is because my sister was13 when I had a baby and my baby
is 14.
SPEAKER_05 (10:56):
Oh, that's right.
SPEAKER_03 (10:57):
So that's when like it all full circles into
everything that I'm still doing.
But like the gap between some ofmy friends and me is the same
gap as my sister and I, is thesame gap as my sister and my
daughter.
So I think it's like thisintergenerational thing is what
I might just innately love anddo.
(11:18):
But throughout that, I've met somany people and everybody's been
like, What are you doing?
SPEAKER_02 (11:23):
And I'm like, I don't know.
SPEAKER_03 (11:24):
Right?
Like, I don't know, but I doknow this and this and this and
this, flying the plane up here.
And I think because I'm flyingthe plane up here, everybody's
landing their planes and they'remaking their points, right?
And through that, all of thecarts have kind of fallen in,
which would be worked at a bar.
Had somebody who was like, Don'tyou want to do something
(11:44):
different?
Why don't you run a bar?
I'm like, I went to school forthis, but I would make more
money here.
Can I make a community artcenter?
No, that wouldn't make money,but you could do this, this, and
this.
And so everybody very muchhelped me because I was in a
space where I still am veryyoung to be in.
And part of what I think is likethe most important part of that
(12:08):
is these young people are stillthe people who are leading me
too, right?
Like my little sister.
I'm like, and then she workedwith us for this many years.
So really everything that we'vedone is kind of, I would say,
family-oriented, was able toopen our gallery to so when you
say we in our, you're you'rewe're talking about lions and
rabbits.
Yes, yep.
(12:29):
Yeah.
So lions and rabbits was my LLCthat I painted under.
And the reason that I made anLLC is because I worked at the
Winchester and somebody waslike, you need an LLC if you're
gonna sell paintings.
And then fast forward, you canhang whatever you want here.
Okay, well, now you can havethis building and you can hang
earn it, but you have to rehabit.
Well, now you got to get aliquor license.
(12:50):
And the whole process has beeneverybody being like, This is
economic development, Hannah.
Your creativity can flourishwith both, but you are community
development.
You lead these things, andeconomic development will follow
it.
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_05 (13:06):
So, so it kind of sounds a little bit like what
lions and rabbits is communitydevelopment.
Kind of doesn't sound like thatwas the plan out of the gate.
SPEAKER_03 (13:16):
No, I was like, I want to be an art gallery that
hangs art and I want to haveevents inside.
And then the neighborhood that Iwas in was like, Well, you came
from a flourishing district.
And I'm like, in between, I havea lot to say in between that.
You can't do these shoppabledistricts when there's no place
to shop, and also there's noeconomic development in between.
(13:37):
So we were using the money thatwe had for the wedding venue to
then recycle back into publicart and all these things.
And so the creative communityreally came behind Creston and
was like, there might not be allof this money to do this, but
this is what we want to do.
And it was a pilot, which Iwould never call it.
It was real communitydevelopment in action that now
(14:00):
has led into economicdevelopment for so many other
people.
SPEAKER_05 (14:03):
Well, what is it about uh art and the and the
creative community around itthat keeps you um reinvesting
and elevating?
SPEAKER_03 (14:12):
I deeply believe in the 17 social global missions,
right?
Like there are 17 things thatcould happen and if we invested
in as a world that could changethe trajectory of the entire
world.
And a lot of times people cometo me and they're like, hey
(14:33):
Hannah, do you have a solutionfor solving this crisis?
And I'm like, I don't, but Iknow that there's a creative
person who does.
So for me, I'm like, why are weputting creative art, public
space, all of these things,culture, the word culture, into
one bucket when we could beputting it into this
(14:53):
free-flowing waterfall of whatthe reality of all of the work
that we're all doingcollectively can accomplish.
And I think creative leadershipis that portion.
So whether they want to makepublic art or change a curb cut
because it's going to solvetraffic dust, I'm like, no,
that's creativity.
But somebody has to think aboutit and actually do it first,
(15:15):
right?
SPEAKER_05 (15:16):
I kind of feel like right now artists, artists are
incredibly vulnerable betweensome of them.
Well, I mean, I I think as awhole, yeah.
Uh uh like even considering justfrom like an AI standpoint,
right?
I kind of feel like the world welive in is vulnerable right now,
too.
So I think it's probably moreimportant now than any point in
(15:39):
my life uh that artists have aplatform to use their voices.
And does that play into yourmotivation at all?
SPEAKER_03 (15:47):
Yeah, that's where I'm like zero poverty, ending
hunger.
What is land underwater?
What is land above water?
You know, like all of thosethings are the reason that
people are so upset or so happyright now.
And I'm sitting here being like,Some of these organizations have
four employees that are here tomake global social impact in a
(16:09):
replicable scale, and all thatis missing is actual capital to
ha make it happen.
That's not always the case.
Capital is not always the case,but what I continue to see
happen or I believe ishappening, is you have all these
cross-sector people that arelike, what's the solution?
(16:29):
What's the solution?
And you have all these creativepeople who kind of need to stand
back up, right?
And I'm like, yes, I know we'revulnerable and we need rest and
blah, blah, blah.
But what I continue to say is Idon't have, I'm 35.
I don't usually have problemswith women that are in their mid
(16:50):
to late 40s or above that.
It's this weird gap in between.
Women in their 60s and 70s wantto help me.
What is vulnerability in thatspace?
What is vulnerability in eachneighborhood with race,
ethnicity, all these things?
And what is that math equation?
That's where I'm like,creativity.
(17:11):
I don't know math that well, butI can tell you all these weird
gaps of missing data that wouldactually make a full story.
And that's if if someone deeply,deeply cares about someone's
opinion or what they're saying,then they're gonna put all of
those factors into it, andthey're not gonna be like, oh my
(17:33):
gosh, everybody who now has afriend who has been impacted by
X, then why?
I'm like, yeah, no, like Iworked at a chain restaurant
when ice was coming in when Iwas 17.
I remember that.
I will never forget that.
And now why are we so vulnerablefor it when we just never have
(17:59):
had that happen to us?
You know what I mean?
Okay, so we're talking aboutthat, we're talking about war,
we're talking about uhaffordable housing, restoration
of riverfront, place keepinginstead of place making.
And I'm like, can we askeveryone what the word culture
(18:23):
means and then what is arts andculture?
Because it's not a thing in thesame way that we continue to
talk about it as.
And so reformation of education,deeply believe in it.
Arts and culture work, workforcedevelopment, small business
association, deeply believe inall of it.
Can I do it?
(18:43):
No, but I can help get theplayers to the game.
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_05 (18:47):
You're a uh bridge, the glue.
SPEAKER_03 (18:48):
Right.
And I can't I can't stopanything and I can't start
anything by myself, but I cantry to get the right players in
the game.
SPEAKER_05 (18:57):
So in in Grand Rapids, how long have you been
doing this thing?
SPEAKER_03 (19:02):
I started Lions and Rabbids in 2016, but it was like
not doing any nonprofit work.
Well, we were doing nonprofitwork out of the wedding venue,
but we didn't start thenonprofit until 2022.
But also, it was like an artscollective starts a nonprofit
because we're like, hey,someone's gonna buy us this
building that we already have abuilding, but we need a bigger
(19:26):
one.
And so where it is now is whereI wanted it to be a very long
time ago, but that's where I'mGrand Rapids culture and what
its identification of what isGrand Rapids on a what is West
Michigan culture.
Yeah.
And where do they wantinnovation?
SPEAKER_05 (19:45):
Right.
And well, and you and in 2026,your your reach has gone quite a
bit outside of Grand Rapids.
SPEAKER_03 (19:54):
But it's because creatives n need and desire work
and they know that they canculturally shift everything
visually.
unknown (20:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (20:03):
What do you have going on in in uh in Detroit?
SPEAKER_03 (20:06):
We have a really cool project in Detroit.
Um, the American Cancer Societyhas a walk by Central Station,
and then there are a few otherpartners that we've been
partnering with, like DetroitMonth of Design, uh the Northe
Neighborhood Associations, andet cetera.
But the whole project startedover there's this vacant
building, nobody wants topurchase it for the price.
(20:28):
Can we start to activate it tobring attention instead of
blight beauty?
Um, and Aya was an artist wholived up here.
She now lives in Dearborn andshe has a collective, it's
called the Dearborn Fine ArtsCollective.
She has like over 200 artiststhat she Oh wow.
Oh, she's she's badass.
Like, I'm like, talk aboutrallying.
(20:49):
You should meet Aya.
And so that's where I'm like,there are people who can do all
of this work everywhere.
We don't have to do all of it.
But Aya was, I want to doplacemaking now, right?
Like, what do how do I get intothis field?
And when we were walking throughsome of the areas, I'm like,
look at the cracks in thesidewalk, look at this, this is
this.
Who are the partners we caninvolve?
(21:09):
And so what has transpired isthere's 116 windows that will be
painted with cancer survivorsfrom Corktown area or the
surrounding neighborhoods.
Oh, incredible.
They're uh by local artists,photographed by a photographer
that lives like literally rightthere.
Um you'll be able to QR code tolike window seven, and it might
be like Sati Smith.
(21:31):
And you'll be able to hear herstory, the story of the artist
that painted her.
We have a massive mural goingup, and it is so good.
Ivan Montoya is the artist.
Um, he also has an understudywho's 14 that's gonna be working
on it with him because he'strying to develop this like
five-stage mural program.
SPEAKER_05 (21:49):
Oh, that's incredible.
SPEAKER_03 (21:50):
The neighborhood association distributes over
220,000 pounds of food out oftheir kitchen, is not paid to do
the work.
It's her and her sister, andthen volunteers.
And so she's gonna have likethis giant food waste dinner
with all these creatives andcommunity members.
So the whole goal of it is likeyou can keep your place.
(22:11):
It's your place.
You can keep it, you can playsnake in it, you can do, but
like at the end of the day, themissing gap is facilitators that
have the desire to listen and dothe change that people want to
see.
SPEAKER_05 (22:23):
So, is that kind of how you're scaling, kind of
without losing the soul of thething?
SPEAKER_03 (22:28):
Yeah, I mean, grown up is cool, but like creatives
are cooler.
Like, that's where I'm like, Ijust really deeply care about
creativity as the highest form.
Of thinking.
And I know that creative peoplecan solve all these problems.
And I know that even if you runa neighborhood association, it
doesn't mean you're notcreative.
If you're distributing 220,000pounds of food out of your
(22:48):
house, you are probably one ofthe most fucking creative people
that I've ever met andsustainable people that I've
ever met, whether it's in foodsustainability, economic
sustainability, desire, right?
So how do we continue yourplatform with economic
development because you are thecommunity?
The community is you, and noweconomic development can come
(23:10):
in.
SPEAKER_05 (23:10):
What do you what do you think this kind of thing
means to the to the artistinvolved?
And not only that, but like alsolike the communities that
they're leaving their mark on.
SPEAKER_03 (23:17):
I mean, every I I I can't speak for every artist,
and that's where I continue orcreative, right?
But I can sit in a room with acompany that will give us money
for designers and talk to themabout what an artist is, and
then an artist is a designer.
And then I can get them to thecommon understanding that
creativity is the highest formof thinking.
(23:40):
So what's your socioeconomicstatus?
How many opportunities have youhad?
Right?
Like everyone's on a differentplatform.
And the biggest thing that I cansay is there are thought leaders
throughout the region that I'mlike, just listen to them
because they can tell you whatthis population has asked and
(24:01):
desired for.
SPEAKER_05 (24:02):
Dude, you're carrying a lot of weight.
SPEAKER_03 (24:04):
Everyone is carrying a lot of weight.
I, if you listen to some of thestories I listen to while I get
to have really great pasta,that's it's shitty.
Like, that's where I'm like,it's not just me, there are
people that work with us and inbetween all spaces.
And I'm like, here's a solution.
Go tap in.
So a lot of my work is I'msorry, this is happening, but
(24:28):
here's my idea or someone else'sidea that I've heard that I
think might be a solution.
So I'm in a lot of solutionsolving spaces where I don't
listen to someone's day-to-daylife ever outside of the big
picture of my neighbor has this,this land is this, this person
(24:50):
owns this.
It's a lot of connection work.
But at the end of the day, I'mnot carrying the weight of
somebody going hungry the sameway as this person is, and she
is not getting paid.
And so that's where my biggestthing is is like if you're not
paying the people who areworking, then you're doing a
(25:12):
disservice to your entirecommunity.
And so if I can get her paid,get her five fridges from
fridges sitting in the ground,like literally just sitting
there, then get the fridges.
If there are 90 spaces for freetutoring, because I heard about
it and I know seven people thatI work with or bartend with or
(25:34):
or or that need free tutoringfor their kids, or someone
else's kid needs it, it's aboutcommunication and knowledge
sharing.
And that's where I'm like, whatis knowledge sharing at this
point?
There's so much communicationand there's no actual action
behind the communications.
SPEAKER_05 (25:52):
This episode is supported by Creative Mornings
Grand Rapids, our local chapterin the world's largest
face-to-face creative community.
Creative Mornings believeseveryone is creative and
everyone is welcome.
Their monthly lecture series isfree and spans over 240 cities
across 69 countries.
Visit Creative Mornings.com tosee what's going on with your
local chapter.
And by Review, West Michigan'sArts and Entertainment Guide.
(26:13):
Find out what's going on in theworld of local music, art,
dining, events, and more withprint magazines at over 500
locations, a weekly newsletter,and online stories at
reviewwm.com.
And by Merchants and Makers, acollective of local artists,
makers, and small businesses,Merchants and Makers puts on
markets across West Michiganconnecting people with real
(26:34):
artists and makers at eventsthat include food trucks, live
music, and local shopping.
Visit merchantsandmakers.com forinformation on upcoming events
and how to get involved.
SPEAKER_03 (26:44):
And so if you could have a placemaking plan where
everyone's like, this is exactlywhat I want my spot to be, and
you don't have to call it aplacemaking plan.
You can put anywhere that youwant in between, whether you're
happy or sad or whatever inbetween.
But this is what our communitysays that they want, and it is
not done by the city, and not athousand people are interviewed.
And this is not Grand Rapids,this is everywhere.
A thousand people in a massivecity interviewed for something,
(27:09):
28 listening sessions, and onlya thousand people came.
There's your problem.
That's not the plan, right?
So you're paying your communityambassadors to do the work.
And when they have thosecommunity plans, then they
should be able to go to all thecorporate people and go, I'm not
telling you that you have toinvest 1.4% of your taxes into
(27:30):
X.
I'm showing you that this iswhat the community wants before
we have a public hearing.
Do you want to do it?
Okay, you're invested in,welcome in.
Okay, you're not invested incommunity.
They said that they just aregonna buy.
SPEAKER_06 (27:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:45):
You do your thing.
So that's where it's a bigger,bigger, bigger picture for me
than murals and events.
SPEAKER_05 (27:54):
Lions and Rabbits has changed significantly since
it started.
SPEAKER_03 (27:58):
Or we like kind of figured out the words to say.
Or like we still don't.
Like I'm like, I have this likeRoy G.
Biv thing.
You've got red people who areconnection and trust.
You have yellow people who arecreative, you have blue people
who are growth.
When you mix growth andcreativity, it makes green,
which is economic prosperity.
When you mix red, which istrust, connection, whatever, and
(28:22):
creativity, yellow, it makesorange.
It's healthy spaces.
So now you have healthy spacesand economic development.
So everybody wins.
It's a recyclable fund.
And then I'm like, well, all Ihad to do is use color theory to
find figure out economicdevelopment.
And that is insane, right?
Like it's insane.
I'm sitting in rooms.
I'm sitting in rooms where I'mlike, did I just make this
(28:43):
membership buy-in thing for acommunity investment fund?
What is a CDFI?
Oh, you guys should be a CDFI.
So like the light switch hasbeen activated, but real estate
has always been in the back ofmy mind.
And I it's not because I want toinvest in real estate, it's
because I like constructionwork.
I love public art because Iliked doing construction work
(29:06):
and I love art.
So it's like, yeah, it's it'sthat cross-fusion, that
cross-sector where I'm like, Idon't know what I like more, but
I now can figure out how to makeit make money.
And when you can make it makemoney, and the community is
behind it, then the community ismaking the money, right?
So their money.
(29:26):
Which then this chick doesn'twork for free out of her
kitchen.
She has an incubator kitchenwith a serve window.
SPEAKER_05 (29:32):
Right.
And speaking of working forfree, like I feel like that's
why I have this like love-haterelationship with like art
competitions and uh likecontests and shit, like when
people put out like submit yourwhatever the fuck for exposure
or whatever bullshit.
SPEAKER_03 (29:53):
But it's like we'll start with anything that you
submit onto someone else'splatform is then they're owned
by them.
So that is where I starteverything.
SPEAKER_05 (30:02):
That should be enough to say don't fucking do
it, don't play.
SPEAKER_03 (30:05):
Even an RFQ or a request for what is your work, I
can then go reshow your work asan organization.
That's why I'm like deeply,deeply engaged in activism for
artists.
Because if a Lamborghini isneeding a light installation and
someone has to be on an NDA forit and they can't show that
(30:26):
work, I don't think that'swrong.
Because I think that they, asLamborghini paid for them to do
that, public space is completelydifferent.
So why public space is paid forand how it's paid for needs to
be very, very pressed on peoplewho are using it for marketing
advantage.
Right.
So that's where that publicartist who wishes that they were
(30:49):
in public space might not beable to be in public space
because their portfolio doesn'tshowcase it.
They can make the exact samething two more times or
something different or whatever,and be able to mass produce a
different quality that nobodyelse can have because they had
that capital from that privatecompany.
But that's the opposite fromsomebody who is a graffiti
(31:10):
artist that everyone's like, ohmy god, I love this city because
it has graffiti and it I feel socool, right?
That's like how gentrificationstarted.
So that's where I'm like, okay,so now if you want to go put
that car there, then how is thatgraffiti artist paid for your
gentrification?
SPEAKER_05 (31:31):
Fuck.
SPEAKER_03 (31:33):
So don't submit for free.
Don't don't ever.
SPEAKER_05 (31:38):
I fucking love that.
Thank you for saying that.
Right.
I fucking love that.
SPEAKER_03 (31:41):
Which is why I think that's why Lions and Rabbits
exists, because I'm likebulldogs, if somebody can just
create, like let them justcreate.
SPEAKER_05 (31:50):
Let's talk about balance for a minute.
Okay.
Do you have any?
SPEAKER_03 (31:54):
I think balance is an interesting word.
Um, I like to research it inother languages.
I even if I wasn't at work, Iwould go to an art museum and
travel.
So I once again, that's what Ibelieve culture is.
I believe culture is immersingyourself in other people's
(32:15):
experiences.
And the fact that I get to dothat for my job and hopefully be
able to represent it enough tobe able to move things forward
is such a privilege and for myfamily to be able to have that
too.
Right.
Like my kid plays piano, I don'tknow how to play piano.
But I've learned more from thatthan I did in my own dance when
(32:40):
I was in whatever same ages,right?
But then I also have learnedintergenerationally more from
that than anything.
So like when you're at home, ifyou don't have those things that
are continuing to pulse, then ofcourse there's no such thing as
balance because you're bored.
I'm not bored.
I'm never bored.
(33:00):
I have a full life, and I'm verysorry for people who don't have
a full life.
And if I get the privilege toturn stuff off, which I do,
that's not something thathappens for almost anybody.
Like, literally, what is it,like four percent of people in
the entire world have been on anairplane?
SPEAKER_05 (33:21):
Really?
SPEAKER_03 (33:22):
I think it was something like that.
SPEAKER_05 (33:23):
Yeah, that's wild.
SPEAKER_03 (33:24):
Yeah.
So those that's where I gostatistically, we can all kindly
fuck off for seriously.
Like, I'm like, holy shit,America.
SPEAKER_05 (33:33):
Well, at what point, like what version of Lions and
Rabbits did you look at andyou're like, okay, this might
this might work.
SPEAKER_03 (33:40):
No.
SPEAKER_05 (33:41):
Really?
SPEAKER_03 (33:41):
I would say um 2025.
Like I had to slow down so muchin 2024, 2025 to be like, this
needs to exist, this needs toexist, you don't have to do
that, this person can do that.
You go give this away, you takewhat you won't receive and chill
the fuck out for a little bit.
(34:02):
Yeah.
And it's the best thing that'shappened to me.
But I also was essentially partof a collective as the financial
leader because I have the LLC orthe nonprofit with all these
older people helping me.
Right.
And then go back to, but if I ammy innate creative, is this what
(34:23):
I want?
Because the only reason that Istarted to do this is because
this is what we all wanted.
And so that's where I go backand forth between does it
actually make sense?
I don't know.
Like long term, I'm like anonprofit should be able to
dissolve because the service isdone.
(34:44):
There's a mission, there's avision, and it's solved.
And that is a very, verydifferent view than economic
development, right?
So I think that is the bestreality, right?
Is when these missions aresolved, when these things
happen, however it folds intowhatever ethrial pixie dust,
(35:08):
right?
Like it doesn't fucking matterto me.
It just matters that the peoplewho deeply care have the
solutions, and it's theirsolutions with their chair at
their table.
SPEAKER_05 (35:20):
Anything else we should talk about before we go
topic hopping?
I am gonna adjust this camerareal quick.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (35:31):
Zip it, lock it, put it in your pocket.
SPEAKER_05 (35:36):
All right, let's go topic hopping.
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (35:38):
Sounds like Hannah.
unknown (35:40):
What?
SPEAKER_03 (35:43):
Rebel.
SPEAKER_05 (35:46):
Uh when you're gone, what do you hope people say
about you?
I should have warned of the ofthe TR shit.
SPEAKER_02 (35:52):
I should have she's fun.
SPEAKER_05 (35:57):
I love that.
SPEAKER_02 (35:58):
That was fun.
That was wild.
SPEAKER_05 (36:01):
That's so good.
Um, finish the thought.
Creativity requires consistencyand energy.
SPEAKER_03 (36:08):
I think uh once again, it's like that rest
mentality.
I get it.
Like, we've dealt with all thisshit, but like not to be morbid,
our houses aren't being bombed.
So, like, kindly fuck off again.
So energy will create the changethat you want to see.
SPEAKER_05 (36:25):
What would your last meal be?
SPEAKER_03 (36:27):
Oh man, I would say I would have some buttered
chicken for sure, not superspicy.
I would have an agroni, a saladwith balsamic vinaigrette, and
(36:48):
probably like two cookieskillets.
Oh, dude, a fucking cookieskillet with the ice cream and-
I was gonna say it might have tobe like a chocolate chunky Ben
and Jerry's, I don't know whatthe name is, kind of one.
I don't know.
There's this really good fallIPA though that make that uh
Schwartz makes too that I jamon.
SPEAKER_05 (37:10):
What one is that?
SPEAKER_03 (37:11):
Just called fall IPA.
Fall IPA.
I actually don't know if it'sactually called that, but it's
it's a pure Michigan fall IPA.
Great.
So I don't think it has I thinkit has a name.
It's called fall IPA.
SPEAKER_05 (37:22):
I love it.
That's the name.
SPEAKER_03 (37:23):
Fall into IPAs.
SPEAKER_05 (37:25):
Nobody knows.
There's no way of knowing.
SPEAKER_03 (37:27):
Leads.
SPEAKER_05 (37:29):
Uh Hannah, what is the best or the worst advice
you've ever received?
SPEAKER_03 (37:34):
The worst advice is um to lean into someone's
definition of femininity becauseI think it fucks women up really
bad because that could mean yourhair's done, you're wearing
heels, you look and care aboutyourself, you care about what
(37:56):
other people think you looklike.
Yeah, no fucking way.
SPEAKER_05 (38:00):
I kind of feel like, and maybe the this is whatever.
This is gonna sound weird comingfrom like a dude talking about
femininity, but like it.
I I I would imagine that as assoon as somebody starts adhering
to somebody else's idea offemininity, like you start
losing yourself.
SPEAKER_03 (38:19):
Think about you don't even have to talk about
femininity, you could talk aboutcreativity.
Are you designing something foryourself or are you designing
something for your client,right?
That's not cooperation, right?
If you're designing somethingfor a client, you're taking
their thoughts and translatingthem.
If you can't do that, that's notyour client's work, that's your
work.
So it's the same thing.
(38:41):
You could go into I'm building acar and it's supposed to be this
way, but it's not, right?
Like everything, every form ofthinking isn't acknowledged all
of the time, and there could bea better solution than anybody
actually knows.
But there is always somethingthat's going to be an underdog
(39:01):
that is like groundhoggingpeople back down.
SPEAKER_05 (39:03):
Right.
What would your walk-up song be?
SPEAKER_03 (39:08):
Uh doses and mimosas.
SPEAKER_05 (39:10):
I don't know what.
Sing it to me.
SPEAKER_03 (39:12):
Oh no, I don't sing.
That's anyone.
SPEAKER_02 (39:15):
I am not a karaoke queen.
I am no fucking way.
No way.
SPEAKER_05 (39:20):
Yeah, that would have been my answer too.
Yeah.
Um good.
SPEAKER_02 (39:24):
Not good because I don't think that you can sing,
but I'm like, no, don't hurteveryone.
SPEAKER_03 (39:27):
I can't.
Don't hurt everyone.
SPEAKER_02 (39:30):
I'm definitely not gonna record it.
SPEAKER_05 (39:32):
Yes, I mean.
Uh what makes you feel most likeyourself?
SPEAKER_03 (39:36):
Colors and patterns.
Like when I go somewhere and I'mlike, man, my socks and my shoes
match that floor, or thatpattern on that wall matches
that sunscape, like matchingrealities is like my favorite
thing ever.
That's the coolest.
I also'm like one of thosepeople, and I don't know if this
is actually a thing, but Inoticed it when I was young, and
(39:59):
I didn't know that I had ADHDuntil I was older, but I
everyone knew, but we didn't wedidn't know.
I'm a team makes sense, but likeI register color before I
register objects.
I'll be like, that's black,that's black, that's black.
Everything is this, and it'slike part of having a
photographic memory.
So that's where I'm like, thereare black lines over there.
(40:22):
There's this, this, this, andthis, these lines are facing
that way.
So I really think verygeometrically, and I'm not
math-oriented.
So when it comes to colortheory, it's like once again,
I'm like, man, I think I cansolve the problem through color
theory.
SPEAKER_05 (40:35):
Oh, that kind of makes sense now.
Weird.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (40:38):
I'm like, patterns and patterns and patterns.
And I was like, what are youwearing?
Mom's like, Hannah.
And I'm like, is it bad?
She's like, you're going to meetwith a foundation.
I'm like, but it shows that Icare.
And she's like, no, it lookslike you didn't get dressed
today.
Like, like, seriously, I'm like,I purposely wore these red shoes
because this has red right here.
And she's like, okay.
(40:58):
But then my other friend waslike, I see it.
SPEAKER_05 (41:01):
So I love that.
So, so how are you showing up toa meeting with like a
foundation?
Are you like, this is this isme, this is what you get.
SPEAKER_03 (41:09):
I went to lunch with several wealthy people today and
said, and here's Hannah when Iwalked in.
Yeah, no.
I mean, that's where I'm like, Ido feel like my work is the most
important now because I amauthentic.
I would say in 2024, I was like,what am I doing?
(41:30):
And that was or I ended 2024.
I'm like, this is never gonnawork.
And I was like, well, it's notworking because you're you're
chasing a goal with whomeverwants to chase that goal when
you know all of the people thatyou want to chase a goal.
You just have to stand, you justhave to put your two feet on the
ground and shut the fuck up fora second and just breathe
(41:52):
through it and then let themtalk and then let somebody else
talk in between or introducethem, right?
Like, and that's that connectionspace where you're like, I'm not
gonna solve all the problems,but you can keep going because
there's somebody who solved yourproblem.
SPEAKER_05 (42:08):
Yeah.
Do you have any regrets?
SPEAKER_03 (42:11):
Oh, yeah.
Uh doing projects too fastwithout partners 110%.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (42:18):
Just burning your ass out.
SPEAKER_03 (42:20):
No, thinking that my mind is in the right social
mission without having the fulloutcome.
So, like, I will go to the mostbasic thing, painting storm
drains.
If there is not a storm draincatch underneath that drain, and
we are putting paint in thatdrain, the fuck are we doing?
Talk about George Floyd andcivil unrest.
Who are your partners?
(42:41):
Or is it just someone's payingfor everyone to be paid?
Uh no, that's not a socialmission.
Well, it's a part of it, butthere is so much more impact
that could be done.
And that's why I'm like, I willwait two years and raise this
much money for this one buildingfor this one cause, because I
know that bringing this manypeople together around one
vacant building will make anactual change.
(43:04):
And whether or not it's thechange we all thought we were
gonna see, it's gonna be thechange we wish to see in some
kind of way.
So that is where I'm like anendowment at Lions and Rabbits
in 2022 would have been thedumbest thing anybody could have
done.
But there are people who wantedto do it because it was cool and
sexy and whatever in between,where I'm like, they can still
(43:28):
go away.
The people who are now likesustainability, creativity.
That's where I'm like all day.
All day come in, say whateveryou want about me to me, find a
solution.
SPEAKER_05 (43:41):
That's so great.
I have one more question foryou.
unknown (43:43):
Okay.
SPEAKER_05 (43:44):
Are you okay?
SPEAKER_03 (43:45):
I'm so good.
Are you okay?
Yeah, I'm pretty good.
Pretty good.
Yeah, I have my days.
I would say I'm living life,like I said earlier, to the
fullest at this point.
I would say I was not okay in2024, 2025.
And that's where I watch all myfriends and I'm like, how do we
get them back up?
Death is inevitable in so manylevels, and I've lost people way
(44:09):
too young.
Trauma, actually, I would saystark inequity, sense of
belonging, collective trauma.
If you can solve those threesocial issues, then you can have
innate happiness.
And so where I know I can do mywork, I know I can live, is in
(44:29):
between spaces where a lot ofother people can't.
And so if we can continue topiggyback off of each other,
then we're good.
But I'm not afraid to findpeople to piggyback.
Back off of.
And that's where I'm like, I'mgood now.
I was not there in 2024.
I'm like, yeah, you're good.
Let's bring you in.
You're not good.
Let's cast surreal.
Right.
(44:49):
Like there's somebody who helpsyou.
SPEAKER_05 (44:51):
And I I admire the absolute shit out of everything
you're doing.
I like I like like I hope yourealize that you're like do
that, like you're making actualchange and that things are
happening.
And um I do it's uh uhappreciated on so many levels
from so many perspectives.
SPEAKER_03 (45:08):
So it's a it's teams, like it's not just then
that's where I'm like, we'resmall, but like the mighty teams
are the ones who are like,anybody see that neighborhood
association who did all thatwork?
SPEAKER_01 (45:19):
Can we paint that basketball court with Edwin for
this much money?
SPEAKER_03 (45:22):
That's where I'm like, it's collaboration, and I
deeply believe in the creativesthat are doing the work,
regardless of what their job is.
And my team, our team, would notbe working there if they didn't
feel the same way.
You know what I mean?
Like nobody does it becausethey're gonna get rich.
Right.
Like they're like, no, thisactually will change the world,
(45:44):
and then we'll have equity.
And then we and so, like, for usto understand that it's not
gonna potentially shift in ourlifetime is a different mindset
than a Christian mindset of WestMichigan.
So that's where I go back to Idon't like that rapturism isn't
(46:05):
in my mind.
It's like make a better life foryour kid, make sure that your
kid is the better version ofyou.
That's it.
That's all you can do.
And that's where it's like youjust have to leave it.
And it's not that you're leavingpeople because you're not
leaving people, you areunderstanding what you wake up
for.
SPEAKER_05 (46:23):
I don't even know what to say.
SPEAKER_03 (46:25):
Everyone to have hope.
Everyone should have hopebecause everyone has had their
rock bottom, but yeah, someone'shad a worse.
SPEAKER_05 (46:32):
Um, before we get out of here, uh, where can
people find you?
SPEAKER_03 (46:36):
Lionsandrabbits.com.
Instagram.
SPEAKER_05 (46:40):
I love it.
unknown (46:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (46:41):
All right, dude.
Hannah, thank you again.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you.
Let's get out of here.
All right.
SPEAKER_00 (46:46):
Chicken Todd of being all these noises in my
head.
I can't seem to make them goaway.
SPEAKER_05 (46:54):
Bad Idea Social Club is an independent podcast made
possible by merch sales,reviews, and listener support.
And is created and hosted by me,graphic designer Aaron McCall,
and co-hosted by photographerJoe Madison.
Music is noises by Mike Maids inthe branches.
Get Bad Idea Social Clubwherever you get your podcasts.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.