May 5, 2026 • 46 mins
Joel Hoekstra (cook, musician, owner of Meyer Music) hosts Aaron McCall for dinner as they discuss creativity, instinct, and finding room to breathe inside the things that matter most. He gets into the connection between food and music, how growth comes from pushing beyond structure, and how both create joy, healing, and a real sense of community when they’re done with care. As a music education advocate, he speaks to the importance of access to music and why it matters. They talk about creative freedom, cooking as expression, and the version of yourself that starts to show up when you finally feel at peace.
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This episode is supported by:
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Merchants & Makers
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Writer/Producer/Editor/Host:
Aaron McCall
aaronmccall.net
IG: @aaron_mccall
——
Co-Host/Sidekick/Photographer:
Joe Matteson
themattesons.co
IG: @joe_dustin
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Music:
"Noises" by Mike Mains & The Branches
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:37):
Sometimes when you're home by yourself, you
want to put the party music on.
It's a real thing.
It's a real thing.
And you need to feel good andyou need to feel that energy
because you need to get moving alittle bit.
SPEAKER_02 (00:46):
You gotta throw those hips around.
SPEAKER_01 (00:47):
Absolutely.
I was blasting the pop music outthere.
Just absolutely blasting it.
SPEAKER_02 (00:51):
What were you playing?
SPEAKER_01 (00:52):
Uh Carly Ray, because that's always the go-to.
SPEAKER_02 (00:54):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (00:55):
Unapologetic Carly Ray Jeffson fan.
SPEAKER_00 (01:15):
I don't know that I've ever changed in front of
you before.
SPEAKER_02 (01:18):
Oh, that can't be true.
SPEAKER_00 (01:20):
I that I mean it is shocking to say it out loud, but
I just I don't know that I have.
SPEAKER_02 (01:25):
I know that you have.
You probably don't know that youhave.
SPEAKER_00 (01:27):
I just got a very strange.
I know that you I was gonna say,I just got a very strange
erection I'm not familiar with.
It's very good.
SPEAKER_02 (01:38):
Hey everybody, welcome back to Bad Idea Social
Club.
My name is Aaron McCall.
And I'm Joe Madison.
This time we packed up the gearand made our way to see Joel
Hoekstra.
Uh Joel co-owns Meyer Music uhhere in Grand Rapids and is
wildly passionate about theimpact of music education, but
(02:00):
he's also a chef of sorts.
Um he doesn't work at arestaurant or anything like
that.
Uh he does it for the love ofthe game.
We actually set up in hiskitchen so uh so he could show
off a bit while we chatted.
We talked a lot about thecommonalities uh and parallels
between music and food and howthey contribute to the fabric of
(02:23):
who somebody is and how theyexperience the world.
Um but but you know what I thinkis is really interesting, Joe?
Yeah.
When I have these conversations,it's usually just me and whoever
I'm talking to.
SPEAKER_00 (02:39):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (02:40):
Nobody else in the room.
SPEAKER_00 (02:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (02:42):
But it seems to me that when there's a nice meal on
the table or or somethingdelicious to be consumed, look
who shows up, just happy as shitto be there.
SPEAKER_00 (02:54):
I'm a straight up rodent.
I'm an opportunist.
If there's food laying out, I'mgonna pull up and I'm gonna do
something to help, but I'm gonnabe there.
I gotta say, I love that aboutus.
Very excited to fill that role.
Um, yeah, that point of thosetwo things being interconnected
(03:15):
had me really thinking back andgoing back to like the very
beginning of me getting involvedwith those two.
I'll call them hobbies, but Iknow they're so much deeper, and
it's more than that.
Um, I used to stay up late towatch Food Network, Emerald
Legacy specifically, and then Iused to wake up early to catch
as many music videos as I couldbefore school.
(03:35):
So I like would condense mysleep window just so I could get
as much Food Network and as muchmusic video as I could.
And I think that like really,like you said, I think that deep
rooted into my psyche.
SPEAKER_02 (03:49):
Yeah, I mean it has to, right?
Like uh for me growing up, likefood wasn't necessarily like a
like a uh like an experiencething, right?
Until my until like my uh mygrandma and grandpa on my on my
mom's side got really serious,you know, Christmas morning or
any any anytime they would theywould show up for food, it was
(04:11):
like they fucking showed up.
That's cool.
Um but music was like celebratedaround my house.
SPEAKER_00 (04:19):
And your house celebrated music for sure.
SPEAKER_02 (04:21):
Oh, and and and so did yours, you know?
Yeah.
Um I think my relationship withmusic is is not just that it
like even today, it like worksits way into every single thing
I do.
You know what I mean?
Like the only time that I don'thave music on is if we're we're
doing this because it's gonnamake editing a fucking
nightmare.
SPEAKER_00 (04:40):
Yeah, right.
You know?
But you're still a little bititchy.
I'm still kind of itchy for it.
SPEAKER_02 (04:44):
Like I want to bop a little.
SPEAKER_00 (04:45):
You should have one AirPod in under your headphones.
Yeah.
I think I just came up with agood fucking idea.
I don't think you did.
I'm all out of love.
SPEAKER_02 (05:03):
You're listening to air supply.
SPEAKER_00 (05:06):
Before we dive in, don't forget to follow wherever
you're listening.
Leave a five-star review, anddon't forget to tell your
friends.
SPEAKER_02 (05:13):
Also, this this thing runs on merch sales,
listener support, and reviews.
So please head over to Bad IdeaSocial Club.
Pick up a t-shirt.
Shipping is always free.
Um done with my spiel.
Here's my here's my conversationwith Joel.
I like your uh I like yourvagina rag.
SPEAKER_01 (05:32):
These are oysters.
SPEAKER_02 (05:33):
Oh.
SPEAKER_01 (05:34):
Thank you.
They should be shockingly likevaginas.
Sweet in a good way, kind ofsalty in a good way.
SPEAKER_02 (05:43):
If you can get a little horseradish in there,
perfection.
SPEAKER_01 (05:45):
Yeah, a little marinette or whatever.
I don't see it.
I don't know what that means.
It's the it's the shallotvinegar mix.
SPEAKER_02 (05:52):
Do you still have like the dream of uh the oyster
bar?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:56):
We're gonna talk about that.
Ask me those questions.
SPEAKER_02 (05:58):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (05:58):
There is a dream, and it has changed to a logical
one.
Are we actually doing this now?
It's been recording this wholetime.
Yes.
Again, edit out.
Remember, it's work related.
I got you, baby.
And also, welcome to my house.
Yeah, thank you for having us.
I'm I'm glad I can cook youdinner.
It makes me really happy uh todo so, and it's fun to do it
with the podcast.
So, what are the the long-termvision of what do I want to do
(06:22):
when it relates to food?
I would like to have somethingwhere I can remain creative, and
I don't see a day-to-dayrestaurant giving me that room.
I have so much respect forpeople who own restaurants
because they pretty much have tolive by a couple factors.
What does the customer want?
So, right, you got to cookcertain things that are gonna
(06:43):
move and sell, and then you gotto live also in a practical
space where you got to buyproduct that's price points and
things that actually are gonnawork, and maybe there's like a
uh a number of things that youcan or cannot do.
So, in general, a restaurant tome doesn't feel like I could
stretch my legs very much, andthen the next layer is just the
(07:05):
realities of staffing anddealing with yeah, you don't
actually want to run a business,you just want to make it
currently, right?
It's I mean, right.
I already know that what thatlooks like, and I'm currently
very blessed to work in one thatgenerally speaking is a you know
favorable hours.
Nine to five is a pretty normalwork day.
And you own a restaurant, you'rethe inverse.
You're gonna be running it whenpeople want to be out, and
(07:27):
that's when I want to be out.
But the creative outlet, Ithink, and I've been having a
lot of fun doing this, is theside work of it's not even work,
it's just having the opportunityfor people.
People have been asking me to dosome dinners or would uh doing a
graduation party or some thingswhere I get a lot of joy out of
that because one, I can get anidea of what they want and then
(07:48):
I can stretch my legs on it alittle bit and make food that's
exciting to me.
Maybe add a little flair.
Um, we did a graduation partyfor super good friends and able
to make, you know, not just abarbecue sauce, but why not
three?
Why not just do a bunch and justsee if you're a sauce guy.
I'm a sauce guy and see if anyof them stick or if people
really like them, or and it'sfun because you get to try
(08:10):
different things.
You don't have to worry aboutdid the inventory turn, did you
did you make a good financialdecision, right?
That sort of that sort of space.
SPEAKER_02 (08:17):
So it can be about the craft.
SPEAKER_01 (08:18):
That's right, and having fun with it.
And I enjoy having theopportunity to be creative in
that sense.
SPEAKER_02 (08:25):
Well, it's funny.
SPEAKER_01 (08:25):
And it wasn't how I cooked early in my life.
No, not necessarily.
You know, I think you got tobuild up enough skill set where
you feel good about it.
And if you don't have theconfidence that you're gonna go
in the right direction, youyou're gonna probably have some
stuff that tastes wrong andweird.
Sure.
One of my really early ones thatI can think of, always super
inspired by Rick Bayless' PBSshow.
(08:45):
Maybe you've seen it or not.
Um he had his his PBS show abouthis travels through Mexico, his
restaurants in Chicago.
You see the frontera stuff atMeyer, etc.
Oh, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Huge, huge empire of food,right?
So Rick Bayless had somecookbooks of his early on, and
he had some cool dishes that Ijust love making.
And I was like, what if I madethat into a pizza?
(09:06):
What if I took this stuff and Imade it into a pizza and I did
it, and it was almost inedible,like painfully spicy, which made
no sense because I'd made itlike as a salsa, and then I used
it as a sauce, and it was like,it's all wrong now.
And you just don't know untilyou try some of that stuff, and
(09:26):
you realize the ratios have tobe the ratios, they have to be
sustained.
And you just can't kind of flowwith things until you have a
pretty good idea of what workswell and how much of each thing
is gonna have to be needed towork well.
And you also still have to bewilling to take some risks and
be like, that didn't work out atall.
SPEAKER_02 (09:41):
It's can you can you pinpoint the moment that you
realized that food was the uh uhthe avenue where you wanted to
put your creative energy?
SPEAKER_01 (09:49):
Oh um, I don't know if I ever had a good avenue for
my creative energy.
And so once it started todevelop, that was just a really
enjoyable process.
Mid-20s, 30s, probably.
SPEAKER_02 (10:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:00):
Um, just really started looking at food
differently, probably to a pointof everywhere I went, every time
I ate, just really interested inwhat people were doing, how it
tasted different, ingredientoptions.
Um, and then over time, I justreally enjoyed making food at
home, testing that.
And what I've found, and this isdefinitely true for me on a
(10:21):
creative outlet or just a maybejust on a how do I put that like
a release, that necessaryrelease, you know, the opposite
of work, right?
Yeah, right.
Like just that flow state whereyou can enjoy things is I don't
like cooking a recipe.
I don't think that means Ibelieve recipes are wrong.
(10:41):
They're a recipe for a reason.
They probably are the best wayto make something, but I don't
personally like cooking that waybecause for me, that does it
binds me back in and I can't getinto a comfortable flow state.
SPEAKER_02 (10:54):
Right.
So you need a little bit offlexibility, you need a little
bit of room to breathe.
SPEAKER_01 (10:57):
I gotta know enough about what's going on in my
sequences to just kind of haveit in my own psyche.
SPEAKER_03 (11:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:03):
And it took me like 15 years of cooking to get
there.
Really?
Probably.
That seems about right.
Yeah.
So like eight, nine years ago,it really started to click where
I could cook without having abook open or referencing my
phone.
And I think that was a big shiftfor me where it really started
to become more enjoyable.
And then I could let creativeenergy kind of take over and I
could design plates differently,and I could think about the
(11:25):
layers because I wasn't reallytrying to follow something, I
was just in it, thinking aboutwhat I wanted to do.
SPEAKER_02 (11:31):
Yeah.
Man, I feel like when um when Ikind of think about you, I think
food and I think music, right?
Because you, you know, you youown uh Meyer Music.
Um, is it is it is it based outof Grand Rapids?
It is.
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
Yeah, our our store location where we use is our
address is in Grand Rapids, andit's always a tricky company
because we service schools allover the state.
So, yes, if you want to go visitour retail store, we're in Grand
Rapids, and a number of ourfamilies love to take advantage
of that opportunity.
But really, we're a we're astore-to-school service
operation.
(12:04):
So uh over the years, uh, Ibecame the owner of the company
in 2018, and alongside ourco-owner, we developed a model
where we'd always been schoolmusic specialists, but we really
just took that to another level.
We got rid of a couple things,even though we like those
things.
I mean, for example, I playguitar personally, but we no
(12:25):
longer sell guitars or what inour industry we'd call combo
equipment.
That's the drums, more of therock and roll type music.
We no longer sell those.
We didn't feel like we're goodat it.
I like being good at stuff.
So does our team.
And so, as we were gearedtowards more of that band and
orchestra side, we got rid ofthat product.
We got rid of the privatelessons in our buildings.
SPEAKER_02 (12:45):
Oh, interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (12:46):
Not because any of us wanted to see lessons change.
We almost every single one ofus, myself included, took
private lessons while we werestudents in school.
But again, we didn't feel likethat was our best space.
We didn't feel like we could bethe best and the experts at it.
So we opted to move away fromthat.
So we became school musicspecialists to the best possible
(13:06):
way we could.
The vast majority of ourbusiness happens outside of our
building.
So I like the question of wheredo you do your business?
Like, well, our business islocated in Grand Rapids, but we
service schools down to St.
Joe in the southwest, Monroe inthe southeast.
No kidding, all the way up toManasee, Cadillac in the north,
and in and most of our schoolsthat we work with are in the
Greater Grand Rapids area.
But we're servicing schools allover the state of Michigan, and
(13:29):
we really are passionate abouttaking our energy, our love of
music, putting it in yourcommunity, giving you the best
chance to make music in yourschool where your teacher is
working so hard to make that apossibility.
SPEAKER_02 (13:39):
Man, what do you think?
What do you think that means tothose kids who who you are kind
of supplying access to music andand and music education to?
SPEAKER_01 (13:47):
I and as a former student, I don't think they
realize how unique it is.
unknown (13:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (13:53):
How about that for a thought process?
We almost don't realize what wehave because we have no
alternative view.
So one of the things that Ithink is very important in the
United States, we have music aspart of our curricular day.
We are the pretty much the onlyplace in the world that does
this, where we have music partof the school day.
(14:14):
Most other places they're gonnahave music outside of the school
day.
You take private lessons or youwork with a tutor or something
like that.
We've decided, and I think thisis exceptional.
No, we're gonna part of our day,we're gonna make music.
SPEAKER_02 (14:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:27):
If you sign up for this class.
So it could be band, it could beorchestra if your school has
one, or it could be choir, itcould be even physical arts.
I'm gonna add that in there,right?
The art classes.
We're making that curricular inthe United States, which I think
is amazing, but it's not anaccident.
So to answer your question, Ithink most kids don't think much
of it because they're like,yeah, cool, I do this and it's
part of my school day.
(14:48):
We have done a great job ofmaking it an expectation that
this is something that studentscan access.
But I can tell you that's not anaccident.
It's not something we can takefor granted.
We have to fight for this allthe time.
SPEAKER_02 (14:59):
And why do you why do you think music education,
and I guess arts educationoverall, why do you think it has
to keep justifying itself?
SPEAKER_01 (15:07):
I don't think we often recognize the relationship
between how the human brainworks and the role art plays.
We want everyone to be good atmath and science,
understandably.
We have concerns that if we fallbehind one of those categories,
we're not prepared for our bestselves.
But I think we take for grantedwhat role music plays in helping
with that development.
(15:27):
I was actually pretty shocked.
I was, I was kind of came inagain, part probably due to I
follow a lot of things ineducation.
Um, there was an individual, adoctor, he was reporting to the
Senate.
I want to say Senate, doublecheck that.
But his whole conversation withthe committee he was reporting
(15:49):
to is that for the first time intheir research, this generation
has less cognitive skill thanthe prior.
That's that's like literally inlike a hundred years of doing
this research, we are seeingcognitive decline for young
adults.
They're tying it directly to theamount of time and energy
(16:10):
students are on screens, forexample.
SPEAKER_02 (16:12):
I was gonna say that's gotta have everything to
do with their.
SPEAKER_01 (17:51):
Yeah, right, right, yeah, right.
Cover our hands and all thestuff we had to learn.
And like students are justcoming into the classroom with a
whole different level oftechnological understanding
compared to what we had when wewere in our middle school and
formative years.
They don't need that support.
We almost have to undo it, slowit down, give them something
tactile, yeah, right, and givethem something completely
different to allow their brainsto expand and explore, and
(18:13):
that's a pretty exciting thing.
SPEAKER_02 (18:15):
Well, that's huge, especially with like as as fucky
as AI is getting.
You know what I mean?
It's like the fact that peoplecan just plug stuff in and have
I'm gonna call it music for lackof a better word.
Yeah, right.
Same thing with art, I'm gonnacall it art for lack of a better
word.
It's I don't think it's actuallyeither of those things.
Um, it's just the ones and zerosand bullshit stacked on top of
(18:39):
each other.
Man, if it it feels like it'smore important now than ever for
these programs to be in schools.
SPEAKER_01 (18:46):
There's certain music that's very easy to
recreate via AI, theformula-based music.
SPEAKER_03 (18:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:51):
It doesn't mean that it's bad per se, but it doesn't
expand or explore.
It ties back to what we'retalking about before.
That's fallen to me, that'sfollowing the recipe.
The recipe exists, it will begood.
Why?
Because it will be good.
Yeah, but it doesn't, it's notrisky, it's not interesting, it
doesn't have an edge to it or aperspective, uh, but it hits
(19:13):
what people want, which is whyI'm noticing with some of the
AI-produced music, I'm like,it's perfect for background
music.
SPEAKER_02 (19:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:19):
It's so neutral, but that's already been happening
with so much of our musicanyway, even before AI.
Every music genre seems to be,if you're looking at the popular
space, especially, it's allmerging to essentially the same
sound.
We used to have such distinctsounds in rock and roll,
distinct sounds in countrymusic, distinct sounds with uh
places like pop music, even wasseparated.
(19:40):
But now it's all essentiallyit's like homeite.
You can you have so many songswith the same beat, same
concept, same genres, right?
Overlapped into these sounds.
So I think AI just naturallyjust hopped into that train.
But no one's ever gonna say thatwas the best song of the year.
Right.
Or that pushed the boundaries.
I certainly hope not.
Well, it just won't.
Uh and if it does, then that's abenefit to all of us because,
(20:01):
like, cool, we're producingbetter, more interesting things
faster, but I don't want to beafraid of it, although I do get
anxious.
I get a little anxious too.
But it's like I don't want to beafraid of things that are
positive.
It's just when we're seeing thatbeing vanilla, it's like, well,
that doesn't help us.
It didn't necessarily hurt us.
It just took streams away fromthe vanilla artist anyway.
And I'm like, hmm, whatever.
SPEAKER_02 (20:20):
I feel like too, when I look at music, like you
can very much like look at musiccreated in the 60s, and you can
say that that was created in the60s, that was created in the
70s, 80s, 90s.
Correct me if you think I'mwrong, but I feel like once we
got to like uh 2000, 2010 orsomething, at least popular
(20:42):
music kind of stoppedprogressing.
SPEAKER_01 (20:44):
Correct.
And you can't tell what genre itis anymore.
Yeah, that's kind of what I wastalking about.
SPEAKER_02 (20:47):
Yeah, and it's the same thing.
And and I feel like this isn'tgonna make it better.
SPEAKER_01 (20:51):
I wish I could remember the name of the book.
It's a great book, history ofmusic uh in the last 50 years
for like a number of genres, butno question.
The movement of sound over timeand the benefit we had of that
sound evolving, and I do thinkit still is, and I think we
actually have more of it thanmaybe we've ever had access to
ever before.
unknown (21:07):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (21:07):
What a positive thought process there, right?
SPEAKER_02 (21:09):
Yeah, but like quantity over quality isn't
necessarily the move.
SPEAKER_01 (21:16):
No, but I'm just saying there's more artists than
ever before that can be foundbecause of our access.
SPEAKER_02 (21:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:23):
And there's a lot of artists that would have never
even been heard that might slideinto somebody's algorithm and
therefore becomes a little morepopular and then maybe can even
have an expansion moment, whichis pretty exciting.
SPEAKER_02 (21:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:33):
I always I like that.
I like that.
Sometimes like, well, I didn'tget to see the underground
person.
I'm like, well, they don'tshouldn't be underground, their
music's awesome.
SPEAKER_02 (21:39):
Yeah.
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Something that I found reallyinteresting is that between food
and Like those are like two ofthe most communal inventions
(22:44):
from humans ever.
SPEAKER_01 (22:46):
Yeah, definitely.
That's probably one of mypassions with food.
Makes people happy.
unknown (22:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:51):
You know, if I'm and again, it's just been some
exploration.
And I think long term, my hopeis to be more of that private
specialized work for people.
Yeah.
It's not being a chef, it'sbeing a cook.
It's taking advantage of skillslearned over time and creating a
space for people to have a greatexperience.
And I that that communal aspectis just, it feels really good to
(23:14):
bring people together, watchthem be joyful.
We had a chance to do that formy sister, and it was super fun.
We had the chance to make foodthat I think really hit what she
loved and her friends loved.
And so this is my fiance's withme.
She was working more like whatwe call like front of house in
that situation around doing theplating.
And it there's something to besaid about the music's on, and
(23:37):
they are just laughing andhaving the night of their life.
Or at least the night of awhile.
You know, it's like maybe notanother one.
SPEAKER_02 (23:45):
It's like the food was pretty good.
The food was again, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:47):
I would say the food was great.
I really did take it seriously.
I thought about it for a longtime, and again, it hit that
creative edge.
I was able to try some newthings, repeat a couple dishes,
which that is not my norm.
I usually don't repeat a lot ofthe food.
What'd you do?
Uh that meal was uh Italianinspired.
She has always wanted to go toItaly, and I know they will at
some point, but it was kind ofthis idea, let's bring them
(24:09):
Italy in January.
I love it.
Yeah, it was super fun.
Uh started with a crudeau thatinvolved a lot of different
ingredients I'd never madebefore.
That one felt risky.
I kind of warned them ahead oftime.
I'm like, I don't know, guys.
I think it's gonna be reallygood.
And interesting, the one guygave me perfect feedback because
I totally agreed with him.
He said, I think it needed moregreen apple.
And I thought I totally agreedwith him because the one that I
ate, my leftovers had all theleftover stuff and it had way
(24:33):
more green apple compared tohis.
And I was like, You're right.
I ate mine.
It was right, it was right.
The ratio was better.
SPEAKER_02 (24:39):
You do okay with the criticism?
SPEAKER_01 (24:40):
Yes, I used to not because I don't know what that
was.
You know what I mean?
Being younger.
SPEAKER_02 (24:45):
I don't fucking like criticism.
I'm 41 and I don't like peoplebeing like, Well, you should, it
should have been red.
SPEAKER_01 (24:50):
Yeah.
Fuck you.
I used to definitely not handleit well.
There's certain days I probablystill don't.
Um, I also have just come torealize I again I have enough
confidence in what I'm doing tobe like, it was good to me.
SPEAKER_02 (25:05):
Yeah.
I mean, I mean, and that's kindof really the way it was good.
SPEAKER_01 (25:08):
It was good to me.
And I'm usually the things theysay, I'm like, I actually have
already thought about that withcertain aspects of it.
And then why not try to take thefeedback and maybe hear someone
out?
And it's a different palette,it's a different experience.
SPEAKER_02 (25:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:23):
Um, I I like dinners that have multiple courses so
that if it's a little bit of awhiff for one person, it doesn't
matter.
We got another one coming.
Yeah, that's the danger,obviously, with like the big one
thing.
It's like, and I'm doing onething today, by the way.
So it's either gonna be good orit's gonna suck, and we're gonna
deal with it, right?
And I'm just gonna tell you it'sgreat.
It's not gonna be bad.
That was what we talked aboutbefore.
(25:44):
I know it won't be bad, butthere again, it's a new dish.
It's it's got a concept, it's afun story.
Tell me the story.
Tell me the story.
So I talked to you the otherday, and one of the things I
really enjoyed doing, I didn'tget all the way through all the
dishes, and that's fine.
That first dish for the the mealwe made was probably the most
out there, and then the rest wasjust really trying to hit foods
I know she wanted.
SPEAKER_02 (26:01):
Okay, great.
SPEAKER_01 (26:02):
Um, in this case, we talked, and one of the things I
really enjoyed doing is thinkingabout what is something special.
You did you talked about itearlier that uh food is very
communal, it's very celebratory,music is the same way.
So it's like making someone foodto me is well, who are you?
What do you want?
What's your story?
So remember, I asked you whatare a couple important things to
(26:22):
you, like when you were growingup, what would be a meal?
And you told me spaghetti.
Yeah, I love that.
Tell me a little bit, tell me alittle bit more about that in
this conversation.
SPEAKER_02 (26:31):
It was kind of the go-to, right?
It was like uh it was it wascheap, you know what I mean?
It was delicious, and uh, dude,I remember it was always uh
spaghetti with like red meatsauce.
Uh basic.
Yeah, very basic.
Um, you know, out of a jar, raguor whatever.
Um, and uh there was alwayswhite bread and butter.
(26:54):
Okay.
Just sliced bread and uh glassof milk.
Okay.
And that was like that was apretty standard about once a
week?
SPEAKER_01 (27:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Regular enough that it's almostlike no one's surprised.
SPEAKER_02 (27:06):
Right, yeah, yeah.
Like, uh, yeah, uh, but it waslike also one of those, it's
like, oh fuck, dad madespaghetti.
SPEAKER_01 (27:11):
Yeah, it's gonna be good.
SPEAKER_02 (27:11):
Yeah, we're fucking with this.
SPEAKER_01 (27:13):
Yep, today's gonna be good.
SPEAKER_02 (27:14):
Um, and then the the the really special thing is that
my mom would my mom was I saywas, she's very much alive.
SPEAKER_01 (27:23):
My mom is is is uh But this is when you were
younger, yeah.
Was in that sense, makes sense.
SPEAKER_02 (27:29):
Yeah, she knows her way around the kitchen, but not
everything she did stood up.
But man, her pot roast, it waslike when she busted that thing
out with the with the with thepotatoes and the carrots and the
onions and the that was man,that was where she shined.
SPEAKER_01 (27:44):
That's the celebratory meal.
Yeah, right.
That was it.
The bigger deal, maybe someonewas coming over.
SPEAKER_02 (27:50):
Yeah, or if you know, like or if like I go home
now for for like uh birthday orsomething, it's like we're
making pot roast.
SPEAKER_01 (27:56):
Yeah, right on.
Yeah, right on.
So I made you neither of thosethings.
Awesome.
But I worked, but I sort of madeyou both of those things.
Yeah, I I don't know what thatmeans, but I am excited.
Okay, so what I did is I I hadbeef cheeks that I've had in my
freezer for a while, and Ididn't know what I was gonna do
with that.
SPEAKER_02 (28:11):
Also, a new nickname.
SPEAKER_01 (28:12):
Yeah, yeah, cool.
Perfect.
Uh so had beef cheeks in thefreezer.
I went and I know I wanted tobraise them in some form, had no
idea.
I just picked them up at thebutcher when I was there because
I was like, cool, you have beefcheeks and they're in the
freezing section.
So I just grabbed them.
Uh when you told me, because youyou had told me two things
spaghetti and the pot roast.
(28:33):
I was like, perfect, beefcheeks, that hits the pot roast
side, right?
We're talking slow braised beef,we're gonna get in that space.
Uh, the spaghetti side, we'regonna do be eating more of a um
an Asian noodle dish that isthose braised beef cheeks that I
braised in.
I it was like 10 onions.
So this is caramelized down now,down to just a puddle of beef,
(28:58):
shiitake mushrooms, and onions.
Yeah.
With a number of differentvinegars and sauces that I
wanted to add into that.
I also, when I was gone lastweek, we were traveling, we were
in France.
This chef made a dish that to mefelt like he had made French
onion soup and he'd fused itwith a lot of different of those
aromatics, specifically, tastedlike lemongrass to me.
(29:20):
So I wanted to tie in what Itasted last week into this dish.
So there's a lemongrasscomponent in here.
And because those onions havecaramelized down all the way
down there, essentially Frenchonion soup level, they're gone.
They're just in here.
They're just oh, I love it.
And so, and we're gonna add thenthis.
I'm gonna chop this basil up.
I'm gonna add these greenonions.
So we're gonna boil water,should be getting there pretty
(29:42):
soon.
It's in process.
We'll boil those noodles up,we'll toss it in that braised
beef, which is again your notspaghetti, not pot roast.
Yeah, but kind of both.
That's too many.
It's just way too many.
SPEAKER_02 (29:57):
I just can't get tested.
You know, something else I loveabout the combo of of music and
food is I think in a lot of waysit can be really healing.
SPEAKER_01 (30:06):
It is actually very interesting right now because of
the nature of the podcast.
I don't have music on with youright now.
SPEAKER_03 (30:11):
I know.
SPEAKER_01 (30:11):
And and that's okay.
That's just very abnormal inthis home.
There's going to be music onpretty much every time you walk
in, or most of the time when youenter the house.
And this topic actually came upwith someone who was doing some
work here, and they're like,they had they had said to me,
Wow, you listen to pretty calmfolk music.
(30:32):
And I was like, Yeah, yeah, itmakes me feel good.
I'm trying to stay calm.
It's the middle of the work day,yeah, and I was here so that
they could get into my house andI was doing things that none of
it was actually making me feelcalm.
So I had calm music on, and andthen he was like, Oh, I usually
listen to like higher energymusic, you know, keeps me going
(30:53):
through the day.
And I said, I totally get that.
You know, sometimes you needthat pump-up music.
But I did ask him, is itpositive for you?
Does it create positive energyfor you?
Or does it make you make youmore agitable?
So the power of music, right?
Sometimes we want to beagitated, sometimes we need to
(31:14):
be calmed down, sometimes wejust want to be bopping and
feeling great, right?
Because we want to have thatparty energy.
Music will get you there in ahurry.
SPEAKER_02 (31:21):
Is that a conscious thing for you, or or is it
something that just kind of uhthe the type of music?
SPEAKER_01 (31:26):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Definitely.
What am I in the mood for?
What mood am I trying to get tois important to me when it comes
to that energy.
And the type of music that Ilisten to is always gonna have
that movement.
I like that.
I like that at a party you canfeel different.
I like that when you're at homeby yourself, you can feel
different.
I like that all those things canbe true.
(31:46):
Sometimes when you're home byyourself, you want to put the
party music on.
Party one.
That's a real thing, it's a realthing, and you need to feel good
and you need to feel that energybecause you need to get moving a
little bit.
SPEAKER_02 (31:56):
Yeah, throw those hips around.
SPEAKER_01 (31:57):
Yeah, and we all know this, but this happened
like two days ago when it was 65and sunny.
You absolutely I was blastingthe pop music out there.
Just absolutely blasting it.
SPEAKER_02 (32:07):
What were you playing?
SPEAKER_01 (32:08):
Uh Carly Ray, because that's always the go-to.
SPEAKER_02 (32:10):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (32:10):
Unapologetic Carly Ray Jepsen fan.
SPEAKER_02 (32:13):
Love that.
SPEAKER_01 (32:13):
She's amazing.
And she, for whatever reason,had that monster hit, and then
everyone thought she was a oneand done.
And it's like a lot of her bestsongs came after that.
She continues to churn out greatmusic.
SPEAKER_02 (32:23):
Okay, so there's your there's your Aaron's.
Oh man, Joe, get that.
Get a shot of that.
I'm in there.
SPEAKER_01 (32:29):
There's Aaron's pot roast.
So real talk, you know, it'slike, how do I feel about
things?
I don't love the mushrooms inthis.
I'm gonna be curious how youguys feel.
I actually don't wanna, Iprobably shouldn't even have
said that because I'm nowpotentially moving the needle
for you guys, but don't beafraid to be like, I like the
mushrooms in there.
You know, that's not gonna hurtmy feelings one way or the
(32:50):
other.
I just feel like it might behiding that caramelized onion
flavor I was trying to create.
There's nothing that's a lot ofonions.
There's so many onions in there,they're not there anymore,
they're just brown now.
SPEAKER_02 (33:01):
I'm into it.
It's not gonna suck.
Hey, let me take this baby for aspin.
Yeah, it's not gonna suck.
It doesn't suck.
Wish it didn't have mushrooms init, though.
unknown (33:15):
I'm just kidding.
SPEAKER_02 (33:16):
What do you think though?
They're strong.
I honestly I don't think they'reas strong as as I took as you
were leading on.
SPEAKER_01 (33:23):
I took like 75% of them out.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
One of the other things thatterrifies me about a restaurant.
Yeah, terrifies us on the rightthing.
When I think about a restaurant,and it it would still be true if
I was doing the private cooking,like legitimately doing that,
where I was charging for it,etc.
SPEAKER_02 (33:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:41):
But I don't want to have to worry about so much
certain aspects of like, did Istore it right?
Where do where did it come from?
Yeah, right.
I mean, I get why we have thoserules, but I also am like,
that's stressful.
Like, I'm I'm gonna do thisright for you guys.
I don't want anyone to be hurtby my food ever because it's
that's not cool.
SPEAKER_02 (34:00):
But that's also like a terrifying notion.
SPEAKER_01 (34:02):
Yeah, it's like man, how about respect for the
restaurant industry?
The things they have to do withthere.
Is that like a quick pickle?
Uh, I wouldn't even call thesepickled, I'd just say I'm trying
to cut them a little bit.
SPEAKER_02 (34:13):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (34:14):
They're they're I want them raw.
I don't quite want them pickled,but that vinegar and that acid
is gonna take an edge off ofthem.
So they don't they still mightgive us flamethrower breath, but
at least we have a chance here.
SPEAKER_02 (34:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (34:27):
But I also want them to taste very shalloty.
Yeah.
Like I don't want them to tastecooked because we have again,
like just a catastrophic amountof caramelized onions in here
already.
So same thing in free onions.
We're just going to cut those.
We don't have to cut those.
That lesson was free.
SPEAKER_03 (34:47):
Alright.
SPEAKER_00 (34:51):
Joel, are you drinking a beer too?
I am.
Are you drinking that one?
Well, are you gonna drink thissame beer though?
No.
Okay, got it.
unknown (34:59):
Okay, got it.
SPEAKER_02 (35:02):
I'm not.
Okay, very good.
Joey, why don't you put thatcamera away and grab your food
and pop over here and enjoy itwith us?
I'm gonna do it.
Dude.
You know what's funny is thatlike I watch like a lot of like
uh like food stuff on Instagram.
So do I.
(35:23):
And then like when you seesomeone take a bite and they go,
Oh, this is I'm like, you bitch.
You're like, you're just doingthe same thing over and over,
but that's literally just thereaction I just had.
SPEAKER_01 (35:30):
I liked your reaction, made me feel good
inside.
Oh, good.
I can handle the criticism, butI definitely prefer the this is
really good.
That's always better.
I love that.
Okay, so I'm gonna talk about ithere for a second.
What I like that it really hit,it does feel very much like pot
roast to me.
Weirdly, because we're eating anoodle dish, but it feels like
that that beef cheek, that'skiller.
(35:51):
I've never used beef cheekbefore.
That's really good.
SPEAKER_02 (35:53):
Dude, this is outstanding.
Thank you.
If anybody's watching on video,I mean you you can see how good
this looks.
You can see how good this looks.
SPEAKER_00 (36:13):
I like that a lot.
SPEAKER_01 (36:14):
Good.
I like it as well.
SPEAKER_00 (36:16):
I do need some of this.
SPEAKER_01 (36:17):
But I didn't want it to be a mushroom dish.
Yeah.
I wanted it to be a caramelizedonion dish.
SPEAKER_00 (36:21):
Oh, perfect timing.
SPEAKER_01 (36:24):
I think I'm blacked out now.
Can't even see it.
Yeah, you are.
We'll get it fixed.
SPEAKER_00 (36:27):
So I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (36:28):
Did that fix it?
unknown (36:30):
No.
SPEAKER_01 (36:31):
This is what I like to do.
Easy girl.
Completely off the dome.
Never made it before.
But yes, I've braised meat abunch of times, so I'm not
scared to do it.
SPEAKER_02 (36:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (36:41):
Like I know what I know what to do to make the
components.
It's like, are the componentsgonna get happy together?
SPEAKER_02 (36:48):
Alright, we got some lights, ready to go topic happy?
SPEAKER_01 (36:51):
Yeah, give me a second.
SPEAKER_02 (36:52):
Alright.
Quick thing, real sharp turn.
Okay.
When you're gone, what do youhope people say about you?
Oh, that's the first question.
That's the first question,maybe.
SPEAKER_01 (37:03):
So when I'm gone, what do I hope people say about
me?
That I was kind.
SPEAKER_02 (37:13):
Fuck, we're not using lights.
SPEAKER_01 (37:15):
We're here still.
SPEAKER_02 (37:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:16):
And I was reliable.
I don't know if that's importantto everybody, but I want to be
really known as a reliableperson.
And it's not that I've alwaysbeen great at that all the time.
You know, but that would be atrue thing to be remembered by.
Also, whatever happened to JimmyStewart at the end of It's a
Wonderful Life, I want that donefor me.
Not asking that much.
(37:37):
I'm not asking that much.
I just want everybody in town toshow up and give like a couple
bucks to charity and my choice.
And somehow end in theequivalent of me who's still
alive crying every time.
Sure.
That's all I want.
SPEAKER_02 (37:50):
Finish the thought.
Okay.
Creativity requires freedom.
SPEAKER_01 (37:55):
Freedom of opportunity, space, the ability
to breathe.
Yeah, whatever the opposite of,again, I go back to what I was
talking about earlier where it'slike the recipe is correct, but
it constraints.
What would your last meal be?
Oh man, it's gotta be pizza, butthat's probably wrong.
Maybe a taco.
I don't know.
That's terrible.
(38:16):
Gotta be pizza.
SPEAKER_02 (38:18):
Um, what is the worst or the best advice you've
ever received?
SPEAKER_01 (38:23):
Man, I've had so many good people in my life give
me good advice.
Hard to narrow to a best.
Um, I thought this was goodadvice.
This has always stuck to me.
I had a teacher I was teachingwith, my first job was in
education, and he had alreadygone through an entire career in
the New York City area infinance, exited that career,
(38:44):
moved out with his family toArizona.
So essentially he was retiredteaching economics.
And he said everybody, whenthey're young, should live in
New York City or Chicago or SanFrancisco.
And I lived in Chicago area nearsuburb.
L Line still ran their city,right?
Um, I lived there for two years,and I think he was spot on.
(39:08):
It is different living in amajor city of that nature and
feeling that.
So that's like an interestingone, right?
That was a good, yeah,interesting advice.
Like, hey, you're gonna decidewhat you want to do with your
life.
And I'm out in Yuma, Arizona atthe time.
And he's like, you should livein one of these three cities for
a while.
I mean you have to live thereforever, but you should go feel
that.
SPEAKER_02 (39:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:27):
And it was, it was different.
It was it was a differentexperience to get up at 5 30 in
the morning just so you couldget on the highway and it wasn't
jammed up.
unknown (39:35):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (39:35):
And some people be like, I hate this, but I loved
it.
I was like, look at all thesepeople doing stuff.
Yeah.
Right?
So there's two ways to look atit like, oh, I gotta get in
that.
It's like, but look at everybodydoing stuff.
And so now, if anything, at thisstage in my life, I might
actually have more of an inversewhere you kind of careen towards
the comfortable.
SPEAKER_02 (39:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:52):
That created more of a you had to have an attitude of
gotta get this.
I like that.
Good advice.
It was interesting.
I don't know.
I don't what was your exactquestion?
Best advice or best or worst.
That was I'm gonna call that aninteresting piece of advice I
once received.
And I'd like to share that withthose of you listening today.
SPEAKER_02 (40:07):
Love that.
What would your walk-up song be?
SPEAKER_01 (40:10):
If I'm messing with the crowd, I'm probably like
bony bear.
Because I would love it.
Like it's a little which I'mprobably not messing with the
crowd, but I'm probably thiscame up again.
I'm probably doing Carly Ray.
I'm doing Runaway with me, CarlyRay.
SPEAKER_02 (40:30):
What makes you what makes you feel most like
yourself?
SPEAKER_01 (40:33):
Probably being on the water.
I love being on Lake Michigan.
I love being around LakeMichigan.
I know we've had some chances tobe on the water together.
SPEAKER_02 (40:40):
You're my you're my boat friend.
SPEAKER_01 (40:41):
Yeah, yeah.
And I'm really grateful we havewhat I would describe as a
great, reasonable boat thatallows me to not worry so much
if I bump it on a dock or put iton the bottom and it fits people
and we can go out and have fun.
But Lake Michigan is really,really important to me.
And that's no surprise where Ilive.
Yeah.
And so the ability here to getinto the woods and walk.
(41:04):
I did it today, actually.
So, you know, you just go whenyour exercise can be part of
where you want to be.
What a great feeling.
SPEAKER_02 (41:11):
Yeah, God, that's killer.
SPEAKER_01 (41:12):
It really is.
And so I I definitely takeadvantage of that as many times
as I can.
SPEAKER_02 (41:16):
Do you have any regrets?
SPEAKER_01 (41:17):
Always.
Don't we?
All uh yeah.
Do I have any regrets?
Um wow, that's not a great lifemindset, though, is it?
And I try, I do try, uh, andthat's an act of choice to not
live in that mindset, eventhough I know I can fall into
that trap.
So if anything, I can dwell inthat too much, and I've noticed
(41:40):
that as I've aged, I have tointentionally accept the path
forward.
SPEAKER_02 (41:46):
That's not an easy, that's not an easy place to get.
SPEAKER_01 (41:48):
No, but the path forward gives us a chance to
then make best decision nowgoing forward.
So if I chose door one, and Iprobably should have chosen door
two in retrospect, giving myselfenough grace to say, but at the
time, with what I knew and whatI had access to, I made a right
(42:10):
choice, or at least I made adecent choice.
And giving myself enough grace,you know.
I think you have to do that.
And I think that life has taughtme that.
SPEAKER_02 (42:20):
That's so awesome.
SPEAKER_01 (42:21):
So, yes, of course, we all have regrets, but don't
beat ourselves over it.
That would be my bit of advice.
Don't beat yourself up over it.
Move forward.
Move forward, make the best ofwhere you are, make the best
opportunity out of where yougot.
SPEAKER_02 (42:32):
Last question I have for you.
SPEAKER_01 (42:33):
That's it.
I don't want to be done withquestions.
SPEAKER_02 (42:35):
Questions are.
I know it is fun.
But are you okay?
SPEAKER_01 (42:40):
Yeah, very good.
Probably best I've been in a lotof years.
SPEAKER_02 (42:44):
You know, I I don't I don't want to cut you off, but
I do want to say uh I've knownyou for about a decade-ish, on
off.
Fuck, maybe, yeah.
Yeah.
That's crazy.
That's crazy.
That just blew up my whole brainnext time.
But I understand.
Yeah.
But I'll say the the the JoelHochstra I'm looking at right
(43:05):
now is the happiest version thatI've ever seen, and I fucking
love that.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (43:10):
Appreciate that.
SPEAKER_02 (43:11):
Yeah.
There's no follow-up, there's nostory there.
I just wanted to say it.
SPEAKER_01 (43:15):
No, and maybe that's why, you know, why we're here,
and I feel good cooking.
I'm not so worried about it.
You know, I can put my heartinto it, and I'm like, it's
gonna be good.
Because I feel good, right?
If we can let ourselves feelgood, we produce our best
product, it's not easy.
We're still gonna have you justask me a second, you know, we're
still gonna have regrets, we'regonna still have things we wish
we did different, but and maybeit's just the product of you
(43:38):
know, you live just long enough,you start realizing maybe I
should ask for forgiveness or bekind to a person that I maybe
did something to a littlefaster, right?
Things clean up differently, youknow, feel good about it.
So, well, thank you for the kindwords though.
SPEAKER_02 (43:52):
Well, yeah, that's what you get for being a it's
because I sped you the noodles.
SPEAKER_01 (43:56):
It's the noodles, it's more of a noodle thing than
anything.
And one of the things we'velearned today, everybody, is if
you give Aaron noodles, hethinks you're great.
SPEAKER_02 (44:02):
That's I mean, that's that's black and white,
one plus one equals two.
unknown (44:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (44:07):
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
All right, man.
Before we get out of here, um,where can people find what
you're doing?
SPEAKER_01 (44:13):
What I'm doing.
Oh, that's uh, I don't know ifI'm ready for that yet.
That's such a great questionbecause you have so many people
on this awesome podcast whereyou can tell them, point them
towards things.
I'm currently, and I have atleast one person that has me
doing a dinner this summer.
Um, so for me personally, Idon't really think I'm ready to
launch that whole concept.
(44:34):
One, I'm still working full timewhere I'm at.
So let's tie back to that.
Here's my thing that I Hopeeverybody does.
If you got a young person inyour life and they're hitting
that grade, whether it's fifthgrade at your school or sixth
grade at your school, where theyhave a chance to start in a band
or orchestra program, I can'tencourage you enough to have
them try.
It's okay if they don't stickwith it.
(44:56):
We obviously hope they do, butjust give them a chance.
Maybe it's not your normalfamily legacy.
We have we have hundreds offamilies who tell us we have
never done this before, we haveno idea what this is about
because we didn't play inschool, and we tell them it's
okay.
One, your teacher is gonna beyour teacher, and that's gonna
be great.
And two, we've got you.
We're gonna make this as easy aspossible.
That's our role, right?
(45:17):
So that's my thing, probably iswhere can you find me?
Don't worry about me.
Help your kids play musicbecause there's joy in it and
there's fun in it, and it'llhelp expand their minds in
spaces they and and hopefullyfind relationships and friends
they've probably never thoughtthey could make relationships
with.
So that's my pitch.
Find that.
SPEAKER_02 (45:37):
Amazing, dude.
Thank you for having us over toyour home.
Yeah, thank you for making us adelicious meal.
SPEAKER_01 (45:43):
Yeah, pleasure.
SPEAKER_02 (45:44):
Thank you for having me.
Let's get out of here.
Sure.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:48):
Eat more noodles.
SPEAKER_02 (45:57):
Bad Idea Social Club is an independent podcast made
possible by merch sales,reviews, and listener support.
And is created and hosted by me,graphic designer Aaron McCall,
and co-hosted by photographerJoe Madison.
Music is noises by Mike Maids inthe branches.
Get Bad Idea Social Clubwherever you get your podcasts.
Sometimes when you're home by yourself, you
want to put the party music on.
It's a real thing.
It's a real thing.
And you need to feel good andyou need to feel that energy
because you need to get moving alittle bit.
SPEAKER_02 (00:46):
You gotta throw those hips around.
SPEAKER_01 (00:47):
Absolutely.
I was blasting the pop music outthere.
Just absolutely blasting it.
SPEAKER_02 (00:51):
What were you playing?
SPEAKER_01 (00:52):
Uh Carly Ray, because that's always the go-to.
SPEAKER_02 (00:54):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (00:55):
Unapologetic Carly Ray Jeffson fan.
SPEAKER_00 (01:15):
I don't know that I've ever changed in front of
you before.
SPEAKER_02 (01:18):
Oh, that can't be true.
SPEAKER_00 (01:20):
I that I mean it is shocking to say it out loud, but
I just I don't know that I have.
SPEAKER_02 (01:25):
I know that you have.
You probably don't know that youhave.
SPEAKER_00 (01:27):
I just got a very strange.
I know that you I was gonna say,I just got a very strange
erection I'm not familiar with.
It's very good.
SPEAKER_02 (01:38):
Hey everybody, welcome back to Bad Idea Social
Club.
My name is Aaron McCall.
And I'm Joe Madison.
This time we packed up the gearand made our way to see Joel
Hoekstra.
Uh Joel co-owns Meyer Music uhhere in Grand Rapids and is
wildly passionate about theimpact of music education, but
(02:00):
he's also a chef of sorts.
Um he doesn't work at arestaurant or anything like
that.
Uh he does it for the love ofthe game.
We actually set up in hiskitchen so uh so he could show
off a bit while we chatted.
We talked a lot about thecommonalities uh and parallels
between music and food and howthey contribute to the fabric of
(02:23):
who somebody is and how theyexperience the world.
Um but but you know what I thinkis is really interesting, Joe?
Yeah.
When I have these conversations,it's usually just me and whoever
I'm talking to.
SPEAKER_00 (02:39):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (02:40):
Nobody else in the room.
SPEAKER_00 (02:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (02:42):
But it seems to me that when there's a nice meal on
the table or or somethingdelicious to be consumed, look
who shows up, just happy as shitto be there.
SPEAKER_00 (02:54):
I'm a straight up rodent.
I'm an opportunist.
If there's food laying out, I'mgonna pull up and I'm gonna do
something to help, but I'm gonnabe there.
I gotta say, I love that aboutus.
Very excited to fill that role.
Um, yeah, that point of thosetwo things being interconnected
(03:15):
had me really thinking back andgoing back to like the very
beginning of me getting involvedwith those two.
I'll call them hobbies, but Iknow they're so much deeper, and
it's more than that.
Um, I used to stay up late towatch Food Network, Emerald
Legacy specifically, and then Iused to wake up early to catch
as many music videos as I couldbefore school.
(03:35):
So I like would condense mysleep window just so I could get
as much Food Network and as muchmusic video as I could.
And I think that like really,like you said, I think that deep
rooted into my psyche.
SPEAKER_02 (03:49):
Yeah, I mean it has to, right?
Like uh for me growing up, likefood wasn't necessarily like a
like a uh like an experiencething, right?
Until my until like my uh mygrandma and grandpa on my on my
mom's side got really serious,you know, Christmas morning or
any any anytime they would theywould show up for food, it was
(04:11):
like they fucking showed up.
That's cool.
Um but music was like celebratedaround my house.
SPEAKER_00 (04:19):
And your house celebrated music for sure.
SPEAKER_02 (04:21):
Oh, and and and so did yours, you know?
Yeah.
Um I think my relationship withmusic is is not just that it
like even today, it like worksits way into every single thing
I do.
You know what I mean?
Like the only time that I don'thave music on is if we're we're
doing this because it's gonnamake editing a fucking
nightmare.
SPEAKER_00 (04:40):
Yeah, right.
You know?
But you're still a little bititchy.
I'm still kind of itchy for it.
SPEAKER_02 (04:44):
Like I want to bop a little.
SPEAKER_00 (04:45):
You should have one AirPod in under your headphones.
Yeah.
I think I just came up with agood fucking idea.
I don't think you did.
I'm all out of love.
SPEAKER_02 (05:03):
You're listening to air supply.
SPEAKER_00 (05:06):
Before we dive in, don't forget to follow wherever
you're listening.
Leave a five-star review, anddon't forget to tell your
friends.
SPEAKER_02 (05:13):
Also, this this thing runs on merch sales,
listener support, and reviews.
So please head over to Bad IdeaSocial Club.
Pick up a t-shirt.
Shipping is always free.
Um done with my spiel.
Here's my here's my conversationwith Joel.
I like your uh I like yourvagina rag.
SPEAKER_01 (05:32):
These are oysters.
SPEAKER_02 (05:33):
Oh.
SPEAKER_01 (05:34):
Thank you.
They should be shockingly likevaginas.
Sweet in a good way, kind ofsalty in a good way.
SPEAKER_02 (05:43):
If you can get a little horseradish in there,
perfection.
SPEAKER_01 (05:45):
Yeah, a little marinette or whatever.
I don't see it.
I don't know what that means.
It's the it's the shallotvinegar mix.
SPEAKER_02 (05:52):
Do you still have like the dream of uh the oyster
bar?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:56):
We're gonna talk about that.
Ask me those questions.
SPEAKER_02 (05:58):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (05:58):
There is a dream, and it has changed to a logical
one.
Are we actually doing this now?
It's been recording this wholetime.
Yes.
Again, edit out.
Remember, it's work related.
I got you, baby.
And also, welcome to my house.
Yeah, thank you for having us.
I'm I'm glad I can cook youdinner.
It makes me really happy uh todo so, and it's fun to do it
with the podcast.
So, what are the the long-termvision of what do I want to do
(06:22):
when it relates to food?
I would like to have somethingwhere I can remain creative, and
I don't see a day-to-dayrestaurant giving me that room.
I have so much respect forpeople who own restaurants
because they pretty much have tolive by a couple factors.
What does the customer want?
So, right, you got to cookcertain things that are gonna
(06:43):
move and sell, and then you gotto live also in a practical
space where you got to buyproduct that's price points and
things that actually are gonnawork, and maybe there's like a
uh a number of things that youcan or cannot do.
So, in general, a restaurant tome doesn't feel like I could
stretch my legs very much, andthen the next layer is just the
(07:05):
realities of staffing anddealing with yeah, you don't
actually want to run a business,you just want to make it
currently, right?
It's I mean, right.
I already know that what thatlooks like, and I'm currently
very blessed to work in one thatgenerally speaking is a you know
favorable hours.
Nine to five is a pretty normalwork day.
And you own a restaurant, you'rethe inverse.
You're gonna be running it whenpeople want to be out, and
(07:27):
that's when I want to be out.
But the creative outlet, Ithink, and I've been having a
lot of fun doing this, is theside work of it's not even work,
it's just having the opportunityfor people.
People have been asking me to dosome dinners or would uh doing a
graduation party or some thingswhere I get a lot of joy out of
that because one, I can get anidea of what they want and then
(07:48):
I can stretch my legs on it alittle bit and make food that's
exciting to me.
Maybe add a little flair.
Um, we did a graduation partyfor super good friends and able
to make, you know, not just abarbecue sauce, but why not
three?
Why not just do a bunch and justsee if you're a sauce guy.
I'm a sauce guy and see if anyof them stick or if people
really like them, or and it'sfun because you get to try
(08:10):
different things.
You don't have to worry aboutdid the inventory turn, did you
did you make a good financialdecision, right?
That sort of that sort of space.
SPEAKER_02 (08:17):
So it can be about the craft.
SPEAKER_01 (08:18):
That's right, and having fun with it.
And I enjoy having theopportunity to be creative in
that sense.
SPEAKER_02 (08:25):
Well, it's funny.
SPEAKER_01 (08:25):
And it wasn't how I cooked early in my life.
No, not necessarily.
You know, I think you got tobuild up enough skill set where
you feel good about it.
And if you don't have theconfidence that you're gonna go
in the right direction, youyou're gonna probably have some
stuff that tastes wrong andweird.
Sure.
One of my really early ones thatI can think of, always super
inspired by Rick Bayless' PBSshow.
(08:45):
Maybe you've seen it or not.
Um he had his his PBS show abouthis travels through Mexico, his
restaurants in Chicago.
You see the frontera stuff atMeyer, etc.
Oh, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Huge, huge empire of food,right?
So Rick Bayless had somecookbooks of his early on, and
he had some cool dishes that Ijust love making.
And I was like, what if I madethat into a pizza?
(09:06):
What if I took this stuff and Imade it into a pizza and I did
it, and it was almost inedible,like painfully spicy, which made
no sense because I'd made itlike as a salsa, and then I used
it as a sauce, and it was like,it's all wrong now.
And you just don't know untilyou try some of that stuff, and
(09:26):
you realize the ratios have tobe the ratios, they have to be
sustained.
And you just can't kind of flowwith things until you have a
pretty good idea of what workswell and how much of each thing
is gonna have to be needed towork well.
And you also still have to bewilling to take some risks and
be like, that didn't work out atall.
SPEAKER_02 (09:41):
It's can you can you pinpoint the moment that you
realized that food was the uh uhthe avenue where you wanted to
put your creative energy?
SPEAKER_01 (09:49):
Oh um, I don't know if I ever had a good avenue for
my creative energy.
And so once it started todevelop, that was just a really
enjoyable process.
Mid-20s, 30s, probably.
SPEAKER_02 (10:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:00):
Um, just really started looking at food
differently, probably to a pointof everywhere I went, every time
I ate, just really interested inwhat people were doing, how it
tasted different, ingredientoptions.
Um, and then over time, I justreally enjoyed making food at
home, testing that.
And what I've found, and this isdefinitely true for me on a
(10:21):
creative outlet or just a maybejust on a how do I put that like
a release, that necessaryrelease, you know, the opposite
of work, right?
Yeah, right.
Like just that flow state whereyou can enjoy things is I don't
like cooking a recipe.
I don't think that means Ibelieve recipes are wrong.
(10:41):
They're a recipe for a reason.
They probably are the best wayto make something, but I don't
personally like cooking that waybecause for me, that does it
binds me back in and I can't getinto a comfortable flow state.
SPEAKER_02 (10:54):
Right.
So you need a little bit offlexibility, you need a little
bit of room to breathe.
SPEAKER_01 (10:57):
I gotta know enough about what's going on in my
sequences to just kind of haveit in my own psyche.
SPEAKER_03 (11:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:03):
And it took me like 15 years of cooking to get
there.
Really?
Probably.
That seems about right.
Yeah.
So like eight, nine years ago,it really started to click where
I could cook without having abook open or referencing my
phone.
And I think that was a big shiftfor me where it really started
to become more enjoyable.
And then I could let creativeenergy kind of take over and I
could design plates differently,and I could think about the
(11:25):
layers because I wasn't reallytrying to follow something, I
was just in it, thinking aboutwhat I wanted to do.
SPEAKER_02 (11:31):
Yeah.
Man, I feel like when um when Ikind of think about you, I think
food and I think music, right?
Because you, you know, you youown uh Meyer Music.
Um, is it is it is it based outof Grand Rapids?
It is.
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
Yeah, our our store location where we use is our
address is in Grand Rapids, andit's always a tricky company
because we service schools allover the state.
So, yes, if you want to go visitour retail store, we're in Grand
Rapids, and a number of ourfamilies love to take advantage
of that opportunity.
But really, we're a we're astore-to-school service
operation.
(12:04):
So uh over the years, uh, Ibecame the owner of the company
in 2018, and alongside ourco-owner, we developed a model
where we'd always been schoolmusic specialists, but we really
just took that to another level.
We got rid of a couple things,even though we like those
things.
I mean, for example, I playguitar personally, but we no
(12:25):
longer sell guitars or what inour industry we'd call combo
equipment.
That's the drums, more of therock and roll type music.
We no longer sell those.
We didn't feel like we're goodat it.
I like being good at stuff.
So does our team.
And so, as we were gearedtowards more of that band and
orchestra side, we got rid ofthat product.
We got rid of the privatelessons in our buildings.
SPEAKER_02 (12:45):
Oh, interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (12:46):
Not because any of us wanted to see lessons change.
We almost every single one ofus, myself included, took
private lessons while we werestudents in school.
But again, we didn't feel likethat was our best space.
We didn't feel like we could bethe best and the experts at it.
So we opted to move away fromthat.
So we became school musicspecialists to the best possible
(13:06):
way we could.
The vast majority of ourbusiness happens outside of our
building.
So I like the question of wheredo you do your business?
Like, well, our business islocated in Grand Rapids, but we
service schools down to St.
Joe in the southwest, Monroe inthe southeast.
No kidding, all the way up toManasee, Cadillac in the north,
and in and most of our schoolsthat we work with are in the
Greater Grand Rapids area.
But we're servicing schools allover the state of Michigan, and
(13:29):
we really are passionate abouttaking our energy, our love of
music, putting it in yourcommunity, giving you the best
chance to make music in yourschool where your teacher is
working so hard to make that apossibility.
SPEAKER_02 (13:39):
Man, what do you think?
What do you think that means tothose kids who who you are kind
of supplying access to music andand and music education to?
SPEAKER_01 (13:47):
I and as a former student, I don't think they
realize how unique it is.
unknown (13:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (13:53):
How about that for a thought process?
We almost don't realize what wehave because we have no
alternative view.
So one of the things that Ithink is very important in the
United States, we have music aspart of our curricular day.
We are the pretty much the onlyplace in the world that does
this, where we have music partof the school day.
(14:14):
Most other places they're gonnahave music outside of the school
day.
You take private lessons or youwork with a tutor or something
like that.
We've decided, and I think thisis exceptional.
No, we're gonna part of our day,we're gonna make music.
SPEAKER_02 (14:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:27):
If you sign up for this class.
So it could be band, it could beorchestra if your school has
one, or it could be choir, itcould be even physical arts.
I'm gonna add that in there,right?
The art classes.
We're making that curricular inthe United States, which I think
is amazing, but it's not anaccident.
So to answer your question, Ithink most kids don't think much
of it because they're like,yeah, cool, I do this and it's
part of my school day.
(14:48):
We have done a great job ofmaking it an expectation that
this is something that studentscan access.
But I can tell you that's not anaccident.
It's not something we can takefor granted.
We have to fight for this allthe time.
SPEAKER_02 (14:59):
And why do you why do you think music education,
and I guess arts educationoverall, why do you think it has
to keep justifying itself?
SPEAKER_01 (15:07):
I don't think we often recognize the relationship
between how the human brainworks and the role art plays.
We want everyone to be good atmath and science,
understandably.
We have concerns that if we fallbehind one of those categories,
we're not prepared for our bestselves.
But I think we take for grantedwhat role music plays in helping
with that development.
(15:27):
I was actually pretty shocked.
I was, I was kind of came inagain, part probably due to I
follow a lot of things ineducation.
Um, there was an individual, adoctor, he was reporting to the
Senate.
I want to say Senate, doublecheck that.
But his whole conversation withthe committee he was reporting
(15:49):
to is that for the first time intheir research, this generation
has less cognitive skill thanthe prior.
That's that's like literally inlike a hundred years of doing
this research, we are seeingcognitive decline for young
adults.
They're tying it directly to theamount of time and energy
(16:10):
students are on screens, forexample.
SPEAKER_02 (16:12):
I was gonna say that's gotta have everything to
do with their.
SPEAKER_01 (17:51):
Yeah, right, right, yeah, right.
Cover our hands and all thestuff we had to learn.
And like students are justcoming into the classroom with a
whole different level oftechnological understanding
compared to what we had when wewere in our middle school and
formative years.
They don't need that support.
We almost have to undo it, slowit down, give them something
tactile, yeah, right, and givethem something completely
different to allow their brainsto expand and explore, and
(18:13):
that's a pretty exciting thing.
SPEAKER_02 (18:15):
Well, that's huge, especially with like as as fucky
as AI is getting.
You know what I mean?
It's like the fact that peoplecan just plug stuff in and have
I'm gonna call it music for lackof a better word.
Yeah, right.
Same thing with art, I'm gonnacall it art for lack of a better
word.
It's I don't think it's actuallyeither of those things.
Um, it's just the ones and zerosand bullshit stacked on top of
(18:39):
each other.
Man, if it it feels like it'smore important now than ever for
these programs to be in schools.
SPEAKER_01 (18:46):
There's certain music that's very easy to
recreate via AI, theformula-based music.
SPEAKER_03 (18:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:51):
It doesn't mean that it's bad per se, but it doesn't
expand or explore.
It ties back to what we'retalking about before.
That's fallen to me, that'sfollowing the recipe.
The recipe exists, it will begood.
Why?
Because it will be good.
Yeah, but it doesn't, it's notrisky, it's not interesting, it
doesn't have an edge to it or aperspective, uh, but it hits
(19:13):
what people want, which is whyI'm noticing with some of the
AI-produced music, I'm like,it's perfect for background
music.
SPEAKER_02 (19:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:19):
It's so neutral, but that's already been happening
with so much of our musicanyway, even before AI.
Every music genre seems to be,if you're looking at the popular
space, especially, it's allmerging to essentially the same
sound.
We used to have such distinctsounds in rock and roll,
distinct sounds in countrymusic, distinct sounds with uh
places like pop music, even wasseparated.
(19:40):
But now it's all essentiallyit's like homeite.
You can you have so many songswith the same beat, same
concept, same genres, right?
Overlapped into these sounds.
So I think AI just naturallyjust hopped into that train.
But no one's ever gonna say thatwas the best song of the year.
Right.
Or that pushed the boundaries.
I certainly hope not.
Well, it just won't.
Uh and if it does, then that's abenefit to all of us because,
(20:01):
like, cool, we're producingbetter, more interesting things
faster, but I don't want to beafraid of it, although I do get
anxious.
I get a little anxious too.
But it's like I don't want to beafraid of things that are
positive.
It's just when we're seeing thatbeing vanilla, it's like, well,
that doesn't help us.
It didn't necessarily hurt us.
It just took streams away fromthe vanilla artist anyway.
And I'm like, hmm, whatever.
SPEAKER_02 (20:20):
I feel like too, when I look at music, like you
can very much like look at musiccreated in the 60s, and you can
say that that was created in the60s, that was created in the
70s, 80s, 90s.
Correct me if you think I'mwrong, but I feel like once we
got to like uh 2000, 2010 orsomething, at least popular
(20:42):
music kind of stoppedprogressing.
SPEAKER_01 (20:44):
Correct.
And you can't tell what genre itis anymore.
Yeah, that's kind of what I wastalking about.
SPEAKER_02 (20:47):
Yeah, and it's the same thing.
And and I feel like this isn'tgonna make it better.
SPEAKER_01 (20:51):
I wish I could remember the name of the book.
It's a great book, history ofmusic uh in the last 50 years
for like a number of genres, butno question.
The movement of sound over timeand the benefit we had of that
sound evolving, and I do thinkit still is, and I think we
actually have more of it thanmaybe we've ever had access to
ever before.
unknown (21:07):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (21:07):
What a positive thought process there, right?
SPEAKER_02 (21:09):
Yeah, but like quantity over quality isn't
necessarily the move.
SPEAKER_01 (21:16):
No, but I'm just saying there's more artists than
ever before that can be foundbecause of our access.
SPEAKER_02 (21:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:23):
And there's a lot of artists that would have never
even been heard that might slideinto somebody's algorithm and
therefore becomes a little morepopular and then maybe can even
have an expansion moment, whichis pretty exciting.
SPEAKER_02 (21:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:33):
I always I like that.
I like that.
Sometimes like, well, I didn'tget to see the underground
person.
I'm like, well, they don'tshouldn't be underground, their
music's awesome.
SPEAKER_02 (21:39):
Yeah.
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(22:02):
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(22:23):
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Something that I found reallyinteresting is that between food
and Like those are like two ofthe most communal inventions
(22:44):
from humans ever.
SPEAKER_01 (22:46):
Yeah, definitely.
That's probably one of mypassions with food.
Makes people happy.
unknown (22:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:51):
You know, if I'm and again, it's just been some
exploration.
And I think long term, my hopeis to be more of that private
specialized work for people.
Yeah.
It's not being a chef, it'sbeing a cook.
It's taking advantage of skillslearned over time and creating a
space for people to have a greatexperience.
And I that that communal aspectis just, it feels really good to
(23:14):
bring people together, watchthem be joyful.
We had a chance to do that formy sister, and it was super fun.
We had the chance to make foodthat I think really hit what she
loved and her friends loved.
And so this is my fiance's withme.
She was working more like whatwe call like front of house in
that situation around doing theplating.
And it there's something to besaid about the music's on, and
(23:37):
they are just laughing andhaving the night of their life.
Or at least the night of awhile.
You know, it's like maybe notanother one.
SPEAKER_02 (23:45):
It's like the food was pretty good.
The food was again, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:47):
I would say the food was great.
I really did take it seriously.
I thought about it for a longtime, and again, it hit that
creative edge.
I was able to try some newthings, repeat a couple dishes,
which that is not my norm.
I usually don't repeat a lot ofthe food.
What'd you do?
Uh that meal was uh Italianinspired.
She has always wanted to go toItaly, and I know they will at
some point, but it was kind ofthis idea, let's bring them
(24:09):
Italy in January.
I love it.
Yeah, it was super fun.
Uh started with a crudeau thatinvolved a lot of different
ingredients I'd never madebefore.
That one felt risky.
I kind of warned them ahead oftime.
I'm like, I don't know, guys.
I think it's gonna be reallygood.
And interesting, the one guygave me perfect feedback because
I totally agreed with him.
He said, I think it needed moregreen apple.
And I thought I totally agreedwith him because the one that I
ate, my leftovers had all theleftover stuff and it had way
(24:33):
more green apple compared tohis.
And I was like, You're right.
I ate mine.
It was right, it was right.
The ratio was better.
SPEAKER_02 (24:39):
You do okay with the criticism?
SPEAKER_01 (24:40):
Yes, I used to not because I don't know what that
was.
You know what I mean?
Being younger.
SPEAKER_02 (24:45):
I don't fucking like criticism.
I'm 41 and I don't like peoplebeing like, Well, you should, it
should have been red.
SPEAKER_01 (24:50):
Yeah.
Fuck you.
I used to definitely not handleit well.
There's certain days I probablystill don't.
Um, I also have just come torealize I again I have enough
confidence in what I'm doing tobe like, it was good to me.
SPEAKER_02 (25:05):
Yeah.
I mean, I mean, and that's kindof really the way it was good.
SPEAKER_01 (25:08):
It was good to me.
And I'm usually the things theysay, I'm like, I actually have
already thought about that withcertain aspects of it.
And then why not try to take thefeedback and maybe hear someone
out?
And it's a different palette,it's a different experience.
SPEAKER_02 (25:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:23):
Um, I I like dinners that have multiple courses so
that if it's a little bit of awhiff for one person, it doesn't
matter.
We got another one coming.
Yeah, that's the danger,obviously, with like the big one
thing.
It's like, and I'm doing onething today, by the way.
So it's either gonna be good orit's gonna suck, and we're gonna
deal with it, right?
And I'm just gonna tell you it'sgreat.
It's not gonna be bad.
That was what we talked aboutbefore.
(25:44):
I know it won't be bad, butthere again, it's a new dish.
It's it's got a concept, it's afun story.
Tell me the story.
Tell me the story.
So I talked to you the otherday, and one of the things I
really enjoyed doing, I didn'tget all the way through all the
dishes, and that's fine.
That first dish for the the mealwe made was probably the most
out there, and then the rest wasjust really trying to hit foods
I know she wanted.
SPEAKER_02 (26:01):
Okay, great.
SPEAKER_01 (26:02):
Um, in this case, we talked, and one of the things I
really enjoyed doing is thinkingabout what is something special.
You did you talked about itearlier that uh food is very
communal, it's very celebratory,music is the same way.
So it's like making someone foodto me is well, who are you?
What do you want?
What's your story?
So remember, I asked you whatare a couple important things to
(26:22):
you, like when you were growingup, what would be a meal?
And you told me spaghetti.
Yeah, I love that.
Tell me a little bit, tell me alittle bit more about that in
this conversation.
SPEAKER_02 (26:31):
It was kind of the go-to, right?
It was like uh it was it wascheap, you know what I mean?
It was delicious, and uh, dude,I remember it was always uh
spaghetti with like red meatsauce.
Uh basic.
Yeah, very basic.
Um, you know, out of a jar, raguor whatever.
Um, and uh there was alwayswhite bread and butter.
(26:54):
Okay.
Just sliced bread and uh glassof milk.
Okay.
And that was like that was apretty standard about once a
week?
SPEAKER_01 (27:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Regular enough that it's almostlike no one's surprised.
SPEAKER_02 (27:06):
Right, yeah, yeah.
Like, uh, yeah, uh, but it waslike also one of those, it's
like, oh fuck, dad madespaghetti.
SPEAKER_01 (27:11):
Yeah, it's gonna be good.
SPEAKER_02 (27:11):
Yeah, we're fucking with this.
SPEAKER_01 (27:13):
Yep, today's gonna be good.
SPEAKER_02 (27:14):
Um, and then the the the really special thing is that
my mom would my mom was I saywas, she's very much alive.
SPEAKER_01 (27:23):
My mom is is is uh But this is when you were
younger, yeah.
Was in that sense, makes sense.
SPEAKER_02 (27:29):
Yeah, she knows her way around the kitchen, but not
everything she did stood up.
But man, her pot roast, it waslike when she busted that thing
out with the with the with thepotatoes and the carrots and the
onions and the that was man,that was where she shined.
SPEAKER_01 (27:44):
That's the celebratory meal.
Yeah, right.
That was it.
The bigger deal, maybe someonewas coming over.
SPEAKER_02 (27:50):
Yeah, or if you know, like or if like I go home
now for for like uh birthday orsomething, it's like we're
making pot roast.
SPEAKER_01 (27:56):
Yeah, right on.
Yeah, right on.
So I made you neither of thosethings.
Awesome.
But I worked, but I sort of madeyou both of those things.
Yeah, I I don't know what thatmeans, but I am excited.
Okay, so what I did is I I hadbeef cheeks that I've had in my
freezer for a while, and Ididn't know what I was gonna do
with that.
SPEAKER_02 (28:11):
Also, a new nickname.
SPEAKER_01 (28:12):
Yeah, yeah, cool.
Perfect.
Uh so had beef cheeks in thefreezer.
I went and I know I wanted tobraise them in some form, had no
idea.
I just picked them up at thebutcher when I was there because
I was like, cool, you have beefcheeks and they're in the
freezing section.
So I just grabbed them.
Uh when you told me, because youyou had told me two things
spaghetti and the pot roast.
(28:33):
I was like, perfect, beefcheeks, that hits the pot roast
side, right?
We're talking slow braised beef,we're gonna get in that space.
Uh, the spaghetti side, we'regonna do be eating more of a um
an Asian noodle dish that isthose braised beef cheeks that I
braised in.
I it was like 10 onions.
So this is caramelized down now,down to just a puddle of beef,
(28:58):
shiitake mushrooms, and onions.
Yeah.
With a number of differentvinegars and sauces that I
wanted to add into that.
I also, when I was gone lastweek, we were traveling, we were
in France.
This chef made a dish that to mefelt like he had made French
onion soup and he'd fused itwith a lot of different of those
aromatics, specifically, tastedlike lemongrass to me.
(29:20):
So I wanted to tie in what Itasted last week into this dish.
So there's a lemongrasscomponent in here.
And because those onions havecaramelized down all the way
down there, essentially Frenchonion soup level, they're gone.
They're just in here.
They're just oh, I love it.
And so, and we're gonna add thenthis.
I'm gonna chop this basil up.
I'm gonna add these greenonions.
So we're gonna boil water,should be getting there pretty
(29:42):
soon.
It's in process.
We'll boil those noodles up,we'll toss it in that braised
beef, which is again your notspaghetti, not pot roast.
Yeah, but kind of both.
That's too many.
It's just way too many.
SPEAKER_02 (29:57):
I just can't get tested.
You know, something else I loveabout the combo of of music and
food is I think in a lot of waysit can be really healing.
SPEAKER_01 (30:06):
It is actually very interesting right now because of
the nature of the podcast.
I don't have music on with youright now.
SPEAKER_03 (30:11):
I know.
SPEAKER_01 (30:11):
And and that's okay.
That's just very abnormal inthis home.
There's going to be music onpretty much every time you walk
in, or most of the time when youenter the house.
And this topic actually came upwith someone who was doing some
work here, and they're like,they had they had said to me,
Wow, you listen to pretty calmfolk music.
(30:32):
And I was like, Yeah, yeah, itmakes me feel good.
I'm trying to stay calm.
It's the middle of the work day,yeah, and I was here so that
they could get into my house andI was doing things that none of
it was actually making me feelcalm.
So I had calm music on, and andthen he was like, Oh, I usually
listen to like higher energymusic, you know, keeps me going
(30:53):
through the day.
And I said, I totally get that.
You know, sometimes you needthat pump-up music.
But I did ask him, is itpositive for you?
Does it create positive energyfor you?
Or does it make you make youmore agitable?
So the power of music, right?
Sometimes we want to beagitated, sometimes we need to
(31:14):
be calmed down, sometimes wejust want to be bopping and
feeling great, right?
Because we want to have thatparty energy.
Music will get you there in ahurry.
SPEAKER_02 (31:21):
Is that a conscious thing for you, or or is it
something that just kind of uhthe the type of music?
SPEAKER_01 (31:26):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Definitely.
What am I in the mood for?
What mood am I trying to get tois important to me when it comes
to that energy.
And the type of music that Ilisten to is always gonna have
that movement.
I like that.
I like that at a party you canfeel different.
I like that when you're at homeby yourself, you can feel
different.
I like that all those things canbe true.
(31:46):
Sometimes when you're home byyourself, you want to put the
party music on.
Party one.
That's a real thing, it's a realthing, and you need to feel good
and you need to feel that energybecause you need to get moving a
little bit.
SPEAKER_02 (31:56):
Yeah, throw those hips around.
SPEAKER_01 (31:57):
Yeah, and we all know this, but this happened
like two days ago when it was 65and sunny.
You absolutely I was blastingthe pop music out there.
Just absolutely blasting it.
SPEAKER_02 (32:07):
What were you playing?
SPEAKER_01 (32:08):
Uh Carly Ray, because that's always the go-to.
SPEAKER_02 (32:10):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (32:10):
Unapologetic Carly Ray Jepsen fan.
SPEAKER_02 (32:13):
Love that.
SPEAKER_01 (32:13):
She's amazing.
And she, for whatever reason,had that monster hit, and then
everyone thought she was a oneand done.
And it's like a lot of her bestsongs came after that.
She continues to churn out greatmusic.
SPEAKER_02 (32:23):
Okay, so there's your there's your Aaron's.
Oh man, Joe, get that.
Get a shot of that.
I'm in there.
SPEAKER_01 (32:29):
There's Aaron's pot roast.
So real talk, you know, it'slike, how do I feel about
things?
I don't love the mushrooms inthis.
I'm gonna be curious how youguys feel.
I actually don't wanna, Iprobably shouldn't even have
said that because I'm nowpotentially moving the needle
for you guys, but don't beafraid to be like, I like the
mushrooms in there.
You know, that's not gonna hurtmy feelings one way or the
(32:50):
other.
I just feel like it might behiding that caramelized onion
flavor I was trying to create.
There's nothing that's a lot ofonions.
There's so many onions in there,they're not there anymore,
they're just brown now.
SPEAKER_02 (33:01):
I'm into it.
It's not gonna suck.
Hey, let me take this baby for aspin.
Yeah, it's not gonna suck.
It doesn't suck.
Wish it didn't have mushrooms init, though.
unknown (33:15):
I'm just kidding.
SPEAKER_02 (33:16):
What do you think though?
They're strong.
I honestly I don't think they'reas strong as as I took as you
were leading on.
SPEAKER_01 (33:23):
I took like 75% of them out.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
One of the other things thatterrifies me about a restaurant.
Yeah, terrifies us on the rightthing.
When I think about a restaurant,and it it would still be true if
I was doing the private cooking,like legitimately doing that,
where I was charging for it,etc.
SPEAKER_02 (33:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:41):
But I don't want to have to worry about so much
certain aspects of like, did Istore it right?
Where do where did it come from?
Yeah, right.
I mean, I get why we have thoserules, but I also am like,
that's stressful.
Like, I'm I'm gonna do thisright for you guys.
I don't want anyone to be hurtby my food ever because it's
that's not cool.
SPEAKER_02 (34:00):
But that's also like a terrifying notion.
SPEAKER_01 (34:02):
Yeah, it's like man, how about respect for the
restaurant industry?
The things they have to do withthere.
Is that like a quick pickle?
Uh, I wouldn't even call thesepickled, I'd just say I'm trying
to cut them a little bit.
SPEAKER_02 (34:13):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (34:14):
They're they're I want them raw.
I don't quite want them pickled,but that vinegar and that acid
is gonna take an edge off ofthem.
So they don't they still mightgive us flamethrower breath, but
at least we have a chance here.
SPEAKER_02 (34:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (34:27):
But I also want them to taste very shalloty.
Yeah.
Like I don't want them to tastecooked because we have again,
like just a catastrophic amountof caramelized onions in here
already.
So same thing in free onions.
We're just going to cut those.
We don't have to cut those.
That lesson was free.
SPEAKER_03 (34:47):
Alright.
SPEAKER_00 (34:51):
Joel, are you drinking a beer too?
I am.
Are you drinking that one?
Well, are you gonna drink thissame beer though?
No.
Okay, got it.
unknown (34:59):
Okay, got it.
SPEAKER_02 (35:02):
I'm not.
Okay, very good.
Joey, why don't you put thatcamera away and grab your food
and pop over here and enjoy itwith us?
I'm gonna do it.
Dude.
You know what's funny is thatlike I watch like a lot of like
uh like food stuff on Instagram.
So do I.
(35:23):
And then like when you seesomeone take a bite and they go,
Oh, this is I'm like, you bitch.
You're like, you're just doingthe same thing over and over,
but that's literally just thereaction I just had.
SPEAKER_01 (35:30):
I liked your reaction, made me feel good
inside.
Oh, good.
I can handle the criticism, butI definitely prefer the this is
really good.
That's always better.
I love that.
Okay, so I'm gonna talk about ithere for a second.
What I like that it really hit,it does feel very much like pot
roast to me.
Weirdly, because we're eating anoodle dish, but it feels like
that that beef cheek, that'skiller.
(35:51):
I've never used beef cheekbefore.
That's really good.
SPEAKER_02 (35:53):
Dude, this is outstanding.
Thank you.
If anybody's watching on video,I mean you you can see how good
this looks.
You can see how good this looks.
SPEAKER_00 (36:13):
I like that a lot.
SPEAKER_01 (36:14):
Good.
I like it as well.
SPEAKER_00 (36:16):
I do need some of this.
SPEAKER_01 (36:17):
But I didn't want it to be a mushroom dish.
Yeah.
I wanted it to be a caramelizedonion dish.
SPEAKER_00 (36:21):
Oh, perfect timing.
SPEAKER_01 (36:24):
I think I'm blacked out now.
Can't even see it.
Yeah, you are.
We'll get it fixed.
SPEAKER_00 (36:27):
So I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (36:28):
Did that fix it?
unknown (36:30):
No.
SPEAKER_01 (36:31):
This is what I like to do.
Easy girl.
Completely off the dome.
Never made it before.
But yes, I've braised meat abunch of times, so I'm not
scared to do it.
SPEAKER_02 (36:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (36:41):
Like I know what I know what to do to make the
components.
It's like, are the componentsgonna get happy together?
SPEAKER_02 (36:48):
Alright, we got some lights, ready to go topic happy?
SPEAKER_01 (36:51):
Yeah, give me a second.
SPEAKER_02 (36:52):
Alright.
Quick thing, real sharp turn.
Okay.
When you're gone, what do youhope people say about you?
Oh, that's the first question.
That's the first question,maybe.
SPEAKER_01 (37:03):
So when I'm gone, what do I hope people say about
me?
That I was kind.
SPEAKER_02 (37:13):
Fuck, we're not using lights.
SPEAKER_01 (37:15):
We're here still.
SPEAKER_02 (37:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:16):
And I was reliable.
I don't know if that's importantto everybody, but I want to be
really known as a reliableperson.
And it's not that I've alwaysbeen great at that all the time.
You know, but that would be atrue thing to be remembered by.
Also, whatever happened to JimmyStewart at the end of It's a
Wonderful Life, I want that donefor me.
Not asking that much.
(37:37):
I'm not asking that much.
I just want everybody in town toshow up and give like a couple
bucks to charity and my choice.
And somehow end in theequivalent of me who's still
alive crying every time.
Sure.
That's all I want.
SPEAKER_02 (37:50):
Finish the thought.
Okay.
Creativity requires freedom.
SPEAKER_01 (37:55):
Freedom of opportunity, space, the ability
to breathe.
Yeah, whatever the opposite of,again, I go back to what I was
talking about earlier where it'slike the recipe is correct, but
it constraints.
What would your last meal be?
Oh man, it's gotta be pizza, butthat's probably wrong.
Maybe a taco.
I don't know.
That's terrible.
(38:16):
Gotta be pizza.
SPEAKER_02 (38:18):
Um, what is the worst or the best advice you've
ever received?
SPEAKER_01 (38:23):
Man, I've had so many good people in my life give
me good advice.
Hard to narrow to a best.
Um, I thought this was goodadvice.
This has always stuck to me.
I had a teacher I was teachingwith, my first job was in
education, and he had alreadygone through an entire career in
the New York City area infinance, exited that career,
(38:44):
moved out with his family toArizona.
So essentially he was retiredteaching economics.
And he said everybody, whenthey're young, should live in
New York City or Chicago or SanFrancisco.
And I lived in Chicago area nearsuburb.
L Line still ran their city,right?
Um, I lived there for two years,and I think he was spot on.
(39:08):
It is different living in amajor city of that nature and
feeling that.
So that's like an interestingone, right?
That was a good, yeah,interesting advice.
Like, hey, you're gonna decidewhat you want to do with your
life.
And I'm out in Yuma, Arizona atthe time.
And he's like, you should livein one of these three cities for
a while.
I mean you have to live thereforever, but you should go feel
that.
SPEAKER_02 (39:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:27):
And it was, it was different.
It was it was a differentexperience to get up at 5 30 in
the morning just so you couldget on the highway and it wasn't
jammed up.
unknown (39:35):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (39:35):
And some people be like, I hate this, but I loved
it.
I was like, look at all thesepeople doing stuff.
Yeah.
Right?
So there's two ways to look atit like, oh, I gotta get in
that.
It's like, but look at everybodydoing stuff.
And so now, if anything, at thisstage in my life, I might
actually have more of an inversewhere you kind of careen towards
the comfortable.
SPEAKER_02 (39:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:52):
That created more of a you had to have an attitude of
gotta get this.
I like that.
Good advice.
It was interesting.
I don't know.
I don't what was your exactquestion?
Best advice or best or worst.
That was I'm gonna call that aninteresting piece of advice I
once received.
And I'd like to share that withthose of you listening today.
SPEAKER_02 (40:07):
Love that.
What would your walk-up song be?
SPEAKER_01 (40:10):
If I'm messing with the crowd, I'm probably like
bony bear.
Because I would love it.
Like it's a little which I'mprobably not messing with the
crowd, but I'm probably thiscame up again.
I'm probably doing Carly Ray.
I'm doing Runaway with me, CarlyRay.
SPEAKER_02 (40:30):
What makes you what makes you feel most like
yourself?
SPEAKER_01 (40:33):
Probably being on the water.
I love being on Lake Michigan.
I love being around LakeMichigan.
I know we've had some chances tobe on the water together.
SPEAKER_02 (40:40):
You're my you're my boat friend.
SPEAKER_01 (40:41):
Yeah, yeah.
And I'm really grateful we havewhat I would describe as a
great, reasonable boat thatallows me to not worry so much
if I bump it on a dock or put iton the bottom and it fits people
and we can go out and have fun.
But Lake Michigan is really,really important to me.
And that's no surprise where Ilive.
Yeah.
And so the ability here to getinto the woods and walk.
(41:04):
I did it today, actually.
So, you know, you just go whenyour exercise can be part of
where you want to be.
What a great feeling.
SPEAKER_02 (41:11):
Yeah, God, that's killer.
SPEAKER_01 (41:12):
It really is.
And so I I definitely takeadvantage of that as many times
as I can.
SPEAKER_02 (41:16):
Do you have any regrets?
SPEAKER_01 (41:17):
Always.
Don't we?
All uh yeah.
Do I have any regrets?
Um wow, that's not a great lifemindset, though, is it?
And I try, I do try, uh, andthat's an act of choice to not
live in that mindset, eventhough I know I can fall into
that trap.
So if anything, I can dwell inthat too much, and I've noticed
(41:40):
that as I've aged, I have tointentionally accept the path
forward.
SPEAKER_02 (41:46):
That's not an easy, that's not an easy place to get.
SPEAKER_01 (41:48):
No, but the path forward gives us a chance to
then make best decision nowgoing forward.
So if I chose door one, and Iprobably should have chosen door
two in retrospect, giving myselfenough grace to say, but at the
time, with what I knew and whatI had access to, I made a right
(42:10):
choice, or at least I made adecent choice.
And giving myself enough grace,you know.
I think you have to do that.
And I think that life has taughtme that.
SPEAKER_02 (42:20):
That's so awesome.
SPEAKER_01 (42:21):
So, yes, of course, we all have regrets, but don't
beat ourselves over it.
That would be my bit of advice.
Don't beat yourself up over it.
Move forward.
Move forward, make the best ofwhere you are, make the best
opportunity out of where yougot.
SPEAKER_02 (42:32):
Last question I have for you.
SPEAKER_01 (42:33):
That's it.
I don't want to be done withquestions.
SPEAKER_02 (42:35):
Questions are.
I know it is fun.
But are you okay?
SPEAKER_01 (42:40):
Yeah, very good.
Probably best I've been in a lotof years.
SPEAKER_02 (42:44):
You know, I I don't I don't want to cut you off, but
I do want to say uh I've knownyou for about a decade-ish, on
off.
Fuck, maybe, yeah.
Yeah.
That's crazy.
That's crazy.
That just blew up my whole brainnext time.
But I understand.
Yeah.
But I'll say the the the JoelHochstra I'm looking at right
(43:05):
now is the happiest version thatI've ever seen, and I fucking
love that.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (43:10):
Appreciate that.
SPEAKER_02 (43:11):
Yeah.
There's no follow-up, there's nostory there.
I just wanted to say it.
SPEAKER_01 (43:15):
No, and maybe that's why, you know, why we're here,
and I feel good cooking.
I'm not so worried about it.
You know, I can put my heartinto it, and I'm like, it's
gonna be good.
Because I feel good, right?
If we can let ourselves feelgood, we produce our best
product, it's not easy.
We're still gonna have you justask me a second, you know, we're
still gonna have regrets, we'regonna still have things we wish
we did different, but and maybeit's just the product of you
(43:38):
know, you live just long enough,you start realizing maybe I
should ask for forgiveness or bekind to a person that I maybe
did something to a littlefaster, right?
Things clean up differently, youknow, feel good about it.
So, well, thank you for the kindwords though.
SPEAKER_02 (43:52):
Well, yeah, that's what you get for being a it's
because I sped you the noodles.
SPEAKER_01 (43:56):
It's the noodles, it's more of a noodle thing than
anything.
And one of the things we'velearned today, everybody, is if
you give Aaron noodles, hethinks you're great.
SPEAKER_02 (44:02):
That's I mean, that's that's black and white,
one plus one equals two.
unknown (44:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (44:07):
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
All right, man.
Before we get out of here, um,where can people find what
you're doing?
SPEAKER_01 (44:13):
What I'm doing.
Oh, that's uh, I don't know ifI'm ready for that yet.
That's such a great questionbecause you have so many people
on this awesome podcast whereyou can tell them, point them
towards things.
I'm currently, and I have atleast one person that has me
doing a dinner this summer.
Um, so for me personally, Idon't really think I'm ready to
launch that whole concept.
(44:34):
One, I'm still working full timewhere I'm at.
So let's tie back to that.
Here's my thing that I Hopeeverybody does.
If you got a young person inyour life and they're hitting
that grade, whether it's fifthgrade at your school or sixth
grade at your school, where theyhave a chance to start in a band
or orchestra program, I can'tencourage you enough to have
them try.
It's okay if they don't stickwith it.
(44:56):
We obviously hope they do, butjust give them a chance.
Maybe it's not your normalfamily legacy.
We have we have hundreds offamilies who tell us we have
never done this before, we haveno idea what this is about
because we didn't play inschool, and we tell them it's
okay.
One, your teacher is gonna beyour teacher, and that's gonna
be great.
And two, we've got you.
We're gonna make this as easy aspossible.
That's our role, right?
(45:17):
So that's my thing, probably iswhere can you find me?
Don't worry about me.
Help your kids play musicbecause there's joy in it and
there's fun in it, and it'llhelp expand their minds in
spaces they and and hopefullyfind relationships and friends
they've probably never thoughtthey could make relationships
with.
So that's my pitch.
Find that.
SPEAKER_02 (45:37):
Amazing, dude.
Thank you for having us over toyour home.
Yeah, thank you for making us adelicious meal.
SPEAKER_01 (45:43):
Yeah, pleasure.
SPEAKER_02 (45:44):
Thank you for having me.
Let's get out of here.
Sure.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:48):
Eat more noodles.
SPEAKER_02 (45:57):
Bad Idea Social Club is an independent podcast made
possible by merch sales,reviews, and listener support.
And is created and hosted by me,graphic designer Aaron McCall,
and co-hosted by photographerJoe Madison.
Music is noises by Mike Maids inthe branches.
Get Bad Idea Social Clubwherever you get your podcasts.
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