Luke Grill: Every Damn Detail

Luke Grill (chef, restaurateur, sommelier, 1983 Restaurants) sits down with Aaron McCall to talk about what it means to build something people can feel. He gets into cutting his teeth in some of the most demanding kitchens in the country, how dangerous it is to follow the crowd, and why holding his convictions is non-negotiable. They talk about the tension between art and business, building spaces that satisfy more than just hunger, and why the details nobody notices are exactly the ones that matter most.

Keep up with Luke Grill:
1983restaurants.com
IG: 1983restaurants
IG: @obstacleno1
IG: @seventysixholland
IG: @publiczeeland
IG: @lovejoyholland

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This episode is supported by:
Creative Mornings Grand Rapids
Merchants & Makers
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Writer/Producer/Editor/Host:
Aaron McCall
aaronmccall.net
IG: @aaron_mccall
——
Co-Host/Sidekick/Photographer:
Joe Matteson
themattesons.co
IG: @joe_dustin
——
Music:
"Noises" by Mike Mains & The Branches
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Support the Podcast:
Buy Merch
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Follow Bad Idea Social Club:
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IG: @badideasocialclub

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (00:38):
I'm here to learn.
It's not about money.
It's about pursuit of knowledge.
And I want to see how theycreate this art on the plate,
right?
And by the end of it, they'relike, well, you know who the
psychopath is that works forfree for a month.
Right?
Instead of like enjoying hisbreak.

SPEAKER_04 (00:55):
I can't seem to make them go away.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09):
Oh, yeah, let's talk about your mug.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11):
Is that a Daphna mug?
Yeah, this is a Daphne mug.

SPEAKER_00 (01:13):
You look why are you why are you always talking about
my mugs?
I have a mug obsession.
And if I could, my mugcollection would be three times
as large.
It's like an active thing I canuse every day that brings me
back to a moment.
It's what I love aboutphotography is a photo can take
me back to a thing as long asI'm coming back to that photo.

SPEAKER_02 (01:31):
Yeah, dude, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:33):
It sounds stupid, but mugs are like a very active
decision.
If you're not just doing afucking collection of just like
one style of mug, like it sayssomething about you.
That says something about likethe style you like.
It says something about anartist you interacted with.

SPEAKER_02 (01:48):
Like the like I'm very particular about like
t-shirts, or I'm like, you know,I have so many prints that I'm
like, I kind of have to rotate.
You know what I mean?
So it's like I don't really havelike so it's like that's not
always the answer, but a mug,man.

SPEAKER_00 (02:01):
I love shit like that.
That's why my office looks theway it does.
I am a I am a tchotchkemotherfucker.
God I love it.
And mugs are just part of that.

SPEAKER_02 (02:12):
God, I love it.

SPEAKER_00 (02:13):
Um Luke's like that too.
Well, you're kind of jumping thegun a little bit, but don't you
say it?
I'm just I'm realizing that,yeah, like he he values that
too.
Sorry, do your thing.
You shut up for a second.

SPEAKER_02 (02:27):
You shut up for one second.

SPEAKER_00 (02:28):
Go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 (02:29):
Shut your fucking up.
You can't you can't hurt me.
I love you too much.
Challenge accepted.
I'm just kidding.
I don't want to do that.
I don't want to do that.
Uh hey everybody, welcome backto Bad Ideas Social Club.
My name is Aaron McCall.
And I'm Joe Madison.
And as Joe, uh, as Joe scooped,we packed up our gear and
trotted out to Holland, Michiganto hang out with Chef Somalier

(02:49):
and restaurateur Luke Grill.
Uh now Luke's the guy behind1983 restaurants uh and spots
like 76, Public, Lovejoy, andObstacle Number One, which is
where we had this conversationum over some cocktails at 10
a.m.
Yeah.

(03:10):
I fucking love my talked abouthow how working in some brutally
intense kitchens uh helped shapehim.
Uh chasing knowledge andexperience before a paycheck and
how he learned to balanceartistry with the uh with the

(03:30):
reality of um of a restaurantstill having to make a profit,
but also not at the expense ofthe dining experience.
So, you know, talking talking toLuke kind of makes me think
about how much of the world hasshifted towards um convenience
over craft and and realexperience.
Like like the kind of thing thatlike really changes you.

SPEAKER_00 (03:54):
The moment you enter obstacle number one, it's like
you can feel the intentionality.
It's like it's screaming fromthe the wallpaper, the the bar
material, the everything.
You know, you can tell there isthere's a method behind every
single detail.
And I truly believe that thatstuff sticks to people.

(04:16):
That they leave their thinking,oh shit, everything you point to
in his restaurants, he has astory behind why it's there and
how it ties back to his past orhow it ties into the story of
the restaurant.
I wasn't sure if you werelagging or if you were just
waiting for me to do my job.
Oh, that's good.

(04:38):
But before we dive in, don'tforget to follow wherever you're
listening.
Leave a five-star review, anddon't forget to tell your
friends.

SPEAKER_02 (04:45):
Also, this thing runs off of uh merch sales and
listener support and reviews.
So help us out, go do thatstuff.
And um, here's my conversationwith Luke.
All right, so let's just not dothe weird, awkward, how do we
start a conversation thing?
Okay.
Let's just start talking.
Let's cheers, man.
Cheers, absolutely.
What are we what are wedrinking?

SPEAKER_01 (05:06):
So this is uh it's uh our namesake cocktail, the
obstacle number one.
And when I was developing theconcept for this particular
restaurant, I wanted a cocktailthat I thought could stand the
test of time, but also somethingthat had a little bit of
personal relevance to me.
So um my last name is Grill.
I never wanted to name anythingafter myself, though.

(05:26):
And so there's never, there's nogrill in any of my restaurants,
anything like that.
And so I wanted to have subtleways to kind of and a little
homage to you know my history,my background, all those things.
So, like opsle number one, forexample, my favorite band is
Interpol.
The first song I ever listenedto by Interpol was opsle number
one.
So I thought what a cool way tokind of, I don't know, kind of

(05:48):
give myself a little bit of akickback.

SPEAKER_02 (05:50):
Uh kind of give yourself a little rub there.

SPEAKER_01 (05:52):
Yeah, and so then this cocktail, um, I wanted to
be a whiskey-based spiritbecause whiskey is my favorite
spirit.
But then I grew up, um, mygrandfather was a carpenter, and
his favorite wood was walnut.
He loved using walnut um to itwas it's a really hard wood.
It's beautiful to work as acarpenter, and he made some
beautiful artistic wood pieces.

(06:12):
He would do these amazing tablesand just amazing carpentry.
Well, this cocktail is a play onblack walnut.
There's a black walnut bitters,there's a black walnut liqueur,
and then there's also a uhcardamom and black walnut
tincture we make house housemade.
And so it's kind of this reallycool interplay with um the black

(06:32):
walnut flavors, but then also umin Michigan there's a lot of
sugar maple trees, and so I wantit to be kind of local at the
same time.
So it's this it's a maple, blackwalnut, and bourbon flavored
cocktail.
It's the first cocktail I madefor this restaurant, and uh, we
sell gobs of it.
People love it, and it's likereally smooth, you know?
It's it's like dangerouslysmooth.

(06:53):
Well, I you want to give me thethe secret on how to make a
cocktail smooth for all yourpeople.
So when people make a cocktailat home, what they don't realize
is there's a lot of burn ofalcohol, right, that hits you
right here in the back of yourthroat.
Yep, that's how I do it.
Yes.
And when you're in a cocktailbar, people don't want to taste
that.
They want just something niceand smooth and buttery and silky
that just kind of goes downwhere they don't have that burn,

(07:16):
or is what people call it,right?
So in professional cocktailbars, you what's called
pre-dilute every cocktail.
What that means is you add somewater to the cocktail when
you're making it before you putit over ice.
What that does is it actuallydilutes the cocktail a little
bit.
There's still two ounces ofliquor in here, but then when
you taste it, it doesn't havethat burn because there's more

(07:37):
water content.
And then also when you'redrinking it, if it's
pre-chilled, when you put it onthe big rock or whatever it is,
it doesn't get too watery.
And so you get the combinationof a smoother cocktail with less
burn, and it also doesn't tastewatery when you're done drinking
it.
So the last drop is as good asthe first.
And most people don't realizethat.
And so water is the key to areally, really good cocktail and
pre-dilution of cocktails.

SPEAKER_02 (07:58):
So, dude, you're a little techie, but you know,
dude, your your palette is somuch more advanced than mine.
I like, you know, like I wouldmake I was I was just gonna say,
I'll make something like this,but I'm never gonna make
anything like this.
Yeah, um, but like I'll makesomething at home and it's just
gonna hurt.
Yeah.
The whole way.
Correct, you're right.
Yeah, no, totally.

(08:18):
And at home, I'm like, this isfine.
Yeah, this is good, dude.
Um, but but your palate, like,it's not just I mean, it's not
just food, it's not just uhcocktails, like you know your
way around a bottle of wine.

SPEAKER_01 (08:31):
Yeah, actually, absolutely.
I I I love wine.
I was actually um really intowine when I started my career in
Chicago, and kind of one of thethings I wanted to do was be a
complete restaurateur.
And I saw myself, you know, inthe kitchen, cooking and doing
all those things, but then therewas this other world out in the
front.
And in particular in Chicago,there's a huge wine kind of

(08:52):
influence in all therestaurants.
And so I started saying, I wantto kind of get into that world.
And there's what's called theCourt of Master Somaliers, or
they're based out of London,England.
And it kind of started as thesepeople saying, Hey, if we go
somewhere in Switzerland orAmerica or Argentina, we want to
know that the person selling uswine knows what they're doing.
And so this group got togetherand said, What if we kind of

(09:13):
started a coalition or a groupor you know, called the court of
masters, or anywhere in theworld you are, if someone that's
in this court, in this kind offraternity, if you will, we know
they know what they're talkingabout.
And so I kind of got into that,started, you know, going to
tastings and learning aboutwine.
So I'm actually a certifiedSomalia through the court of
masters.
Um, there's four levels, andlike for example, the master

(09:34):
level is like only aroundroughly 300 in the whole world.
Oh shit.
Yeah, so it's a really, really,you know, exclusive club.
And there's advanced, which hasabout probably four or five
thousand, and then mine, whichis about 15, 20,000 people.
And again, these are roughnumbers.
These years ago, I I could becompletely wildly wrong, but
those are general give or take.
It could be complete bullshit.
It could be, yeah.

(09:55):
But basically, there's not a lotof people to do it.
But what it does is it gives youkind of some cut spa and some
some credence that you knowyou're talking about.
And so I really got into wine.
Um, I've got a wine cellar in myhouse, all my restaurants have
reserved wine lists.
And, you know, it's funnybecause wine is getting less
popular with youngergenerations, but they've been
drinking it since the time ofthe Bible and Jesus, right?

(10:15):
And so if you think about it, Ilove Game of Thrones, right?
Walk me through how humanitiesexist without wine.
It doesn't.
Yeah, it was safer than water.
And so I tell people all thetime, like, water has, or sorry,
why is water too?
Wine has such a place at thetable.
And I really wanted myrestaurants to be about this
synergy between food andbeverage, where it's not just

(10:37):
one, it's both that kind of makea complete meal.
And so all my restaurants, Isaid, I want a complete cocktail
program, beers, but also wine.
Because, in my opinion, to havea really great meal amongst
friends, it includes a bottle ofwine.
And I think that it just itcomplements the food so well.
Because like cocktails aregreat, but they're either too
sweet or they're too strong.
You know, they're more of agreat way to start a meal.

(10:58):
But once you hit your meal, youwant something that's got
natural acidity and structurethat gives you the ability to
kind of go with the food, andwine does that better than any
any other beverage.

SPEAKER_02 (11:08):
You've also kind of cut your teeth at some pretty
serious restaurants.

SPEAKER_01 (11:12):
I have, yeah.
Yep.
So one of the things that I kindof said from day one was I want
to work for the best people Ican work for.
Because if I work for someserious people and some people
that that you know don't fuckaround, if you will, in this
industry, I'm gonna learn fromthem, right?
And so, and one example is Iworked at a restaurant called
True in Chicago.
Um, this was before the Michelinguide was in America, so there

(11:35):
were no Michelin-starredrestaurants in America.
This is before that time.
If it had been, there were thetwo main restaurants at that in
that era in Chicago were CharlieTrotters and True.
And it was kind of one A, one Bwith who's the best restaurant.
And so when I went to work forthem, um, it started off as an
intern.
I interned them when I was atMichigan State, and uh I went to
Michigan State for hospitalitybusiness.

(11:55):
Before that, I went to the CIACulinary Institute of America
out in New York for forculinary.
And I was kind of that crazy guywhere I wanted the job so bad, I
wanted to work at true so badthat I said, hey, I'll come work
on my Christmas break, my springbreak for free.
So my uncle, you know, he workedin Chicago.
I slept on his couch for a monthstraight, got up at like five in

(12:18):
the morning, went to work,worked until like midnight,
every single day, my entireChristmas break, my sophomore
year at Michigan State.
And everyone's like, dude, whyare you working for free?
And I'm like, because I want towork here and I want to show
them I'm a hard worker, I'm hereto learn.
It's not about money, it's aboutpursuit of knowledge.
And I want to see how theycreate this art on the plate,

(12:38):
right?
And by the end of it, they'relike, well, you know who the
psychopath is that works forfree for a month, right?
Instead of like enjoying hisbreak.
Um, but they offered me um aninternship that summer.
That went great.
And my goal going to theinternship was get in get a job
offer, and I did.
And so I went to work thereafter college, um, and I learned

(12:59):
an immense amount.
I worked insane hours, but um,you know, Rick Tremano was the
chef after a period of time,then um LaRanque Gras was
another chef.
He was formerly from the fifthfloor in San Francisco.
He opened L2O in Chicago, whichwas three-star Michelin.
Um, and these are the guysyou're working with, right?
Scott Tyree and Chad Ellengood,both master somaliers for the

(13:19):
quartermasters.
They both were there in the wineprogram.
Um, Serge Krieger and AdamSeeger, some huge heavyweights
in the in the hospital industry.
You know, Serge worked mainly atuh um for Daniel Balud in New
York City before he came toChicago.
And these are the people I'mworking with every single day.
Yeah, just some motherfuckers.
Yeah, absolutely.

(13:40):
And it was intense.
I mean, I'd see people get firedin the spot because they drop a
glass on the floor.
They're you know abusiveconditions sometimes, in my in
my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 (13:50):
I've heard I've heard uh I've heard rumblings
about that from people in uh uhhundred percent in that space.

SPEAKER_01 (13:55):
It's different now, but like you probably saw the
stuff with Noma.
I don't know if you saw itrecently, but um, you know,
restaurant by the name of Nomain um Los Angeles, formerly from
Copenhagen, where the owneractually had to step down and
you know, a lot of difficultiesbecause of just work culture.
But the thing about therestaurant business, and I'm not
complaining, I learned a ton, soI'm not in any ways mad about

(14:16):
what happened, but it wasintense.
And you have to have thick skinbecause they come to work and
they are not fucking around.
I mean, they're trying to go forto be the best restaurant in the
country, or if not the world,and you have to work for these
people and understand theintensity of it every single
day.
And my poor wife and my kids, Imean, I'm a pretty intense guy
to this day, and a lot of it'sbecause of the places in New

(14:36):
York City or like true inChicago that I worked at.
And when you work for thesepeople, you know, it's kind of
they always taught me like ironsharp sharpens iron.
Yeah.
And like, is your iron bladegonna cut theirs or is their
blade gonna cut yours?
Which is a really intense kind,you know, kind of concept.
But it was kind of one of those,like, how are you gonna kind of

(14:56):
figure this out?
And so, yeah, I mean, I was I Iworked probably 100, 110 hours a
week.
Um, it was insane, but theamount you learn is crazy.

SPEAKER_02 (15:04):
And did you did you ever have that feeling of like,
man, this is a lot, this thingfor me?

SPEAKER_01 (15:10):
Um, no, no, I I think that from a young age, I
always wanted to be inrestaurants.
You know, I had an easy bakeoven when I was, you know, like
a third grader, asked my parentsfor it for Christmas.
Um, I really got into cooking ata young age.
I started watching Emerald on onTV when I was, I think, a fourth
or fifth grader where on springbreak, and I was like, what's
this?
This is pretty cool.
And then I started watching it.
I loved it.
I went to a couple of booksignings, um, started cooking at

(15:32):
home all the time.
I was really into great chefs ofthe United States and great
chefs of the world that are bothon TLC.
Um, and I just I looked at itand I thought to myself, these
are people that get to taketheir artistic expression, put
it on a plate, and they get tosee people smile.
That's cool.
That's a payoff.
That's cool, right?
And it's not in their house.
Like if you draw, you know,paint a picture, right?

(15:53):
And then somebody buys it, youdon't get to see them enjoying
your art, right?
Right, right.
You assume they're going to, butyou don't get to see it.
When you're in a restaurant,it's instant gratification.
So you're you're you're makingit and then you're seeing them
enjoy it.
That's special, right?
And so I kind of it's almost adrug in terms of like seeing
people having that emotionalenjoyment of your artistic form

(16:16):
is cool.
And so I think when I went toChicago, it's because I said
these are people that are thebest at their craft, they're
best at their artisticexpression.
I'll learn from them, right?
And so, yeah, I think that evenwhen you're working crazy hours
like that, I knew number one,this two shell pass.
Number two, I knew it was for agreater good in terms of I just
put my head down.

(16:36):
I never really tried to go formoney, I always went for
knowledge, right?
And I think that's one of thethings if there's younger people
who are watching this, don'tcare about making money when
you're young.
Just try and learn.
Because the thing is, is thatwhen you're young, you're stupid
and you're gonna do things thatare not intelligent.
Yeah.
But then all of a sudden whenyou get older, you're like, wow,
I'm really glad I learned that.

(16:56):
Because if I hadn't, yikes,right?
And so I think in the restaurantbusiness, you know, it is
sometimes can be a difficultculture, long nights, weekends,
hours.
But what you get in return isunquantifiably important if you
want to become your own boss, ifyou want to be a restaurateur,
if you want to open your ownbusinesses.

SPEAKER_02 (17:16):
Okay, well, how did we get here then?
How did you get from working atthese gnarly places to I'm gonna
do my own thing?

SPEAKER_01 (17:23):
Yeah, this is a great question.
So, you know, having worked inplaces in New York and Chicago,
I realized after a few years,like, okay, I don't have the
money, you know, my parentsaren't gajillionaires, right?
I don't have like, here's amillion bucks, Luke, go open a
restaurant.
That wasn't my story, right?
I grew up on a farm, my parentsdid wealth themselves, they
supported me massively, but theyweren't going to bankroll my

(17:44):
first business, right?
And so I knew, okay, there's noway I can compete with the, you
know, the Levy restaurants andthe Let Us Entertain you's in
Chicago or, you know, all thedifferent groups in New York
City.
And so I'm gonna have to find awedding of my own.
And so I wanted to work for anindependent restaurant tour that
I felt could be more like me.
There's a gentleman by the nameof Bill Roberts.

(18:05):
He owns Roberts Restaurants inthe Detroit area.
And at the time he owned uh tworestaurants and he was in the
process of wanting to open athird.
And so I kind of got linked upwith him.
I decided and kind of realized,you know what, Chicago is great,
but I'm never gonna be here longterm.
I can't afford it.
I need to go and find out howdoes an independent restaurant
tour that's in a smaller marketwork and own restaurants.

(18:28):
And so I mount met Bill.
Um, I actually, believe it ornot, had applied for an
internship for him at the sametime as when I applied at True
as a backup plan.
Because I'm like, well, if truedoesn't get me in, I need to go
somewhere, right?
And Bill, in my opinion, is thebest restaurant tour in the
state of Michigan.
And so I said, if I'm not gonnawork at Let Us Entertain You
with at True, I want to work forBill.

(18:50):
And then I got the offer theinternship at True, which kind
of led me to getting there, ajob in the career and all that.
So I ended up not going withBill.
But then when I wanted to leaveChicago, I said, I'm going to
work for Bill.
So I went to work for Bill.
Um, he owned two restaurants,opened a third called The Town
Tavern um in Royal Oak.
He's kind of out of Birmingham,Michigan.
He owns Beverly Hills Grill,Streetside Seafood.
Um, wonderful restaurant tour.

(19:12):
And he just does everything theright way, right?
The thing I think wasinteresting about working for
Bill was he taught me the insand outs of how to run a small
restaurant in a smaller marketcorrectly, right?
And how you do things a certainway, you don't cut corners.
And I think similar to Chicago,you don't cut corners either,
and you do things a certain way.
But I think that when you'reseeing a guy do it that's not,

(19:34):
you know, 50 restaurants andworth hundreds of millions of
dollars, it's different whenit's only a couple of
restaurants.
And so um, I learned an immenseamount, you know, and I think I
I got to grow up at the sametime, you know, when you're
graduating college and you'reonly a kid, you make a lot of
stupid mistakes.
And I think Bill, one of thethings I'm thankful for is he
realized I had a lot of talent,but also I was an idiot, you

(19:55):
know, and you know, young kidsare cocky and they think they
know everything.
And I'm sure I was probably afucking handful of the men
walking.
Walking around with this ego.
Oh my gosh.
And I I and part of the problemthat made it worse too is I
worked at these greatrestaurants in Chicago and
Detroit, or excuse me, uh NewYork.
And so I I knew I was prettytalented at restaurants, made it
worse, right?
And so I apologize if any of myformer co-workers or managers

(20:18):
are listening, you know.
I'm different now, I promise.
But no, it the thing is thatthings like how do you build a
pro forma, looking at laborcost, looking at you know,
beverage costs, looking at howto build beverage menus, how to
build different food menus, howto take the idea of what a
customer wants versusseasonality versus what makes

(20:38):
money, and kind of juxtapose andinterplay those things in a
menu.
Because one of the hardest partsabout restaurant tour is you
have what you want to sell, youhave what the customer wants to
eat, you have what makes money,and those are wildly different
things, and you've got thisthing called seasonality that
comes into it too.
And so the hard part about thisis you know, one of the things I
think it's unique about me andhow I run restaurants is I

(21:00):
consider myself a businessperson first because at the end
of the day, it's just you'rehere to make money.

SPEAKER_02 (21:05):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (21:05):
And then unfortunately, maybe an artist
second, because what I'velearned over the years is, and I
think Bill taught me this, isyour art can be great, but if it
doesn't return on investment,what's the point?
Right.
And so there's a lot ofrestaurants out there that are
beautiful, wonderful restaurantsthat are artistic and gorgeous
and serve amazing food andthey're chefy and chef-driven,

(21:26):
all this, but then they don'tmake any money.
And I think the biggest thingfor me was that Bill taught me
is you can still providewonderful art and make money
simultaneously.
And I think when I was at true,it was the opposite.
It was the expression of art andfrom a culinary standpoint,
putting something so beautifulon the plate to the Michelin
guide or Relay and Chateau oryou know, Forbes, whoever it is

(21:48):
that's ranking me has to give meall the accolades because of
what it is.
And Bill said, Well, that'sfine, but you also have to
simultaneously make money.
And so I think the last thing Iwould say that I learned is I
saw two intrinsically differentviewpoints on how to make a
restaurant from a standpoint ofnot cutting corners,
everything's perfect, like inChicago or in New York, versus

(22:09):
yes, but you also have to turn aprofit.
And so what I then did was Itook both of those things and
said, okay, how can I take theidea of this in Chicago or New
York and this in Detroit workingfor Bill and combine it?
And I think what I've created isa company that for me at least,
I think is a really good happymedium of when people walk into
my spaces, whether it be theinterior design, the food, the

(22:30):
service, there is an artisticelement to it and a uniqueness
and a boutique kind of qualityto I think what Of try to create
and procure, but we also makemoney.

SPEAKER_02 (22:42):
Well, and it's so these spaces that you have,
they're so rich in uh in story.
Talk to me a little bit about, Imean, even the name 1983
restaurants, I know goes back toyour family.

SPEAKER_01 (22:54):
It does, yeah.
Yep.
I was born in 1983 restaurant,or I was born in 1983.
And uh, yeah, and um, kind offunny story.
When I when I created the logo,I went down to Ace Lansing to
fill out the the form to form myLLC and I put restaurants
plural.
And she goes, Do you ownmultiple?
And I said, No.
And she goes, Well, why are youputting an S on the end?
I said, Because I want to openmore, right?

(23:14):
And so I think from day one, I Ikind of had this idea to do
that.
Um, and uh, and then like 76,for example, in my other
restaurants, my parents weremarried in 1976.
I kind of wanted to pay homageto them.
So, yeah, to your point, youknow, a lot of Lovejoy, which is
right next door to us right now.
I grew up on Lovejoy Road.
Uh my grandparents, you know,had a farm there.
Um, all my restaurants havedefinitely a personal connection

(23:35):
to me.
Um, and I think that's somethingthat I've really tried to kind
of add into my restaurants as apiece of me, but subtly in a way
that people wouldn't know unlessthey asked the question, right?
Um, but no, I I think that atthe end of the day, getting back
to the original part of thequestion was the interior design
is a massive, massive part of Ithink how I view a restaurant.

(23:57):
And I think one of the thingsthat's unique with me is I don't
want to say they're overbuilt,but kind of.
I mean, all my restaurants are,I think, really beautiful.
They're all dynamicallydifferent looking.
And the interior design, Ithink, is a tremendously huge
part of the DNA of myrestaurants and what I want them
to be and what I want to looklike, right?
And so you take Obstacle, forexample, which we're in right

(24:19):
now, um, just the wallpaper wasover$55,000.
What the fuck?
Yes, that's just the cost of thepaper, and that's not installing
it.
And my my interior designer andI, when we work together, she's
like, Luke, really?
And I was like, fuck yeah.
Like it needs to have thisconnotation, this feeling of
when you walk in here, you thinkyou're in Chicago, right?

(24:39):
And you know, like those drapes.
Let's not talk about howexpensive those drapes were and
like everything in here.
If you look up, there's actuallya five-piece cron molding up on
the ceiling where the wallpaperdelineates.
And then above that, on theceiling itself, there's another
piece of three-piece moldingthat goes around the entire
perimeter of the ceiling.
And there are little detailslike this where nobody actually

(25:01):
notices it.
But when you just kind of lookin the space, it kind of frames
where your eye goes up andstops.
And it's all these littledetails, if you look around this
restaurant, that not one thingindividually, I think, makes the
restaurant, but then you startadding them all together, and
there's a richness when you'resitting in the space where if
you're drinking a$23 cocktail or21 or whatever it might be, you

(25:23):
don't care.
Right.
Because I think thatrestaurants, I think it's more
poignant today than ever.
We have a responsibility totransform and have
transformative abilities forguests.
Restaurants have gotten sofucking expensive, and we're all
to blame for it because I'll sayit for everybody.
Restaurant tours got greedy in2020, 21, 22, 23.

(25:43):
Oh, it's inflation.
Oh, and but they just jackedtheir prices up way too much,
inappropriately.

SPEAKER_02 (25:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (25:49):
And I think that we're all to blame for it.
Believe it or not, I actuallyjust lowered every price at
public for lunch.
Side note in my otherrestaurants, I lowered every
price.
And my cook's like, dude, you'recrazy.
What are you doing?
I'm like, dude, that's tooexpensive.
No one's paying$20 for a fuckingsandwich.
I'm sorry.
It's too much money.
It's hard to do.
Yes.
And you why you think you wonderwhy they're going to Chipotle or
Shake Shack?
I'll tell you why.
Because they can actually affordthose places, right?

SPEAKER_02 (26:11):
Because they can spend$9 on a exactly.

SPEAKER_01 (26:14):
And so I become more convicted than ever that a
restaurant's job is to transformand create a transformative
experience where it's not justbeing fed, it's how are you
satisfying their soulsimultaneously as feeding them,
right?
And that comes down to if youskimped on interior design, if
you skimped on menu design, foodquality, all these things go

(26:35):
into it.
When somebody walks into aspace, you have to make them
think this is not just food,it's an experience.
And I think that creating anatmosphere that someone can sit
in with their loved ones ortheir friends, that allows you
to do that, right?
And when you don't create thatholistic experience from the
second you walk in the doors,you're losing something, right?

(26:55):
And so I think part of thereason, like with the obstacle,
it's been successful is therewas an intentionality that I had
with wanting it to feeltransformative.
And so, like, for example, youwalk in the host stand, you
can't see the restaurant.
When you open the door, you seea wall, right?
And then when you do a 90-degreeturn, you see another wall.
All you see is the logo on thewall, right?

(27:15):
And what a beautiful logo thatis.
It is sweet.
Aaron McCall, everyone.
Um does all my logos.
Um, and uh when, but thenfinally, when you walk in the
front, then you see the wholerestaurant.
But I think part of also, too,is there's this kind of like
mystery of well, where's therestaurant, right?
You can't see there's nowindows, they're covered.
And then you kind of turn thecorner, and then finally you

(27:36):
walk into the space and you'relike, wow, like this is crazy,
right?
And then you already have thispreconceived idea of like, okay,
this place is badass.
You haven't even had a menu yet,you haven't had a cocktail yet,
you have no food yet, but you'rein, but you're in, right?
And then I think the other thingtoo of this restaurant that I
kind of started, because it'sthe most recent one that I'd
opened, was I said it has to bemulti-sensory as well.

(27:59):
So when you guys walked in, yousaid, dude, this place smells
good.
It didn't want to even open,right?

SPEAKER_02 (28:02):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (28:03):
You smell your sight.
Like we have several cocktailsthat have a kind of performative
element to them with fire showsand big flames and all that
stuff.
So when you're in therestaurant, it smells really
good.
You see flame shows anddifferent, you know,
performative parts of theexperience.
Obviously, the aromas or thetaste as well, but then visual.

(28:23):
And I think what people forgetabout is when you're in a
restaurant, the more senses thatyou can engage someone with, you
got them, right?
They're coming back.
How do you get your me hooksinto somebody?
And I think the biggest thing isit's you have to have
multi-sensory because at the endof the day, we're we're visual
creatures, we're we're you know,audio creatures.
The more of these senses thatyou can kind of keep hitting off

(28:45):
of, it really makes somebodykind of really want to come
back.

SPEAKER_02 (28:49):
Well, when did it go from you know, simply cooking a
meal to this?

SPEAKER_01 (28:57):
Yeah, great question.
And I think that's why I went towork for those people.
Because when I went to work, youknow, at a Jean Georges in New
York City or, you know, for atTrue in Chicago, they were
already doing that stuff.
And this is back in the early2000s.
They were already starting torealize people want more than
just be fed, they wantexperience.
And I always told people, youknow, they're like, why are you
doing this?
Why are you, you know, why areyou working?

(29:19):
It's like when I checked True,based on how many hours it
worked, I figured out it waslike$3.13 an hour was what I was
making, basically.
And that that was back in 2004.

SPEAKER_02 (29:29):
So not Scrooge McDuck money.

SPEAKER_01 (29:31):
No, it was, I mean, I was I was broke.
I couldn't even affordgroceries, right?
I would eat family meal at therestaurant, and that was it
because I couldn't afford food.
You know, but the point is thatwhat they gave me in return was
the understanding and knowledgeof where the restaurant industry
is going and seeing thisperformative element of the
restaurants.
And I kind of realized like, Ithink there's a lot of validity

(29:53):
what they're doing.
And no, it hadn't been adoptedyet wholeheartedly in around the
country.
And so I started to say, youknow what, if I owned a
restaurant, I think this is thefuture, is you have to give
people more than just food,right?
You have to give them again,like I said, how do you satisfy
their soul?
Well, it's more than just food.
And so I think that when youlook at the restaurant industry,
there's been a lot of attrition,there's been a lot of restaurant

(30:15):
closures.
I think there's gonna be a lotmore in the next decade.
The ones that are gonna stayopen are the ones that give you
more than just food, right?
And I think places that just tryto say, hey, we have good food,
you're smoked, like you'retoast.
And if if they were listening tothis, I'd say you have to find a
way to more than just have food.
Because here's the thing there'sa lot of really good restaurants
all around Holland or GardenApps that have great food.
There's tons.

SPEAKER_02 (30:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (30:36):
But then if you start thinking about, okay, who
are the places that are reallyprocuring and curating an
experience where it's there's ahandful thing, there's a
handful, right?
And they're all knocking theball off the cover, right?
And I think that's the thing isthat it's the money is out there
and the people want to spend it,but you have to give them a
reason to walk through the frontdoor.
If you're doing the same thingas somebody else, why would they

(30:58):
come to you?
You have to give them a reasonwhy there's differentiation
between you and somebody else.
And I think that, you know, it'skind of like with Poquito,
right?
Let's let's talk about it.
I closed Poquito to reopen a newrestaurant called Lovejoy.
I love Poquito.
Restaurant made money, everysingle year was open.
It did great.
But I looked at it and I said,Do I think that in five or 10
years Poquito is still going tobe doing this well?

(31:20):
And I said, no.
And here's the reason why dopeople want to walk in the door
to a restaurant?
What's the predication on whysomeone comes to a restaurant to
be fed?
Right.
And it comes into that what areall the things that go into why
someone comes somewhere or not?
And what I got back to is life'sgotten expensive, tariffs,
inflation, all the bullshit,it's getting ridiculous.

(31:42):
I mean, just the idea of gettingyour car and driving to the
grocery store and then gettinggroceries.
Like, can we talk about doesanyone on the This Listen to
this podcast shop anywhere otherthan Aldi or Walmart?
Like, who goes to Moyernowadays?
It's too expensive.
Dude, I have all of my shitdelivered because I'm not
leaving.
No, that's sweet.
Yeah.
I'm not leaving.
I go to Aldi because I'm like,dude, I'm not paying for all
groceries are crazy.

(32:02):
But what I'm getting at is thatit's gotten expensive.
And so with Lovejoy, I said tomyself, okay, if I'm gonna
satisfy someone's soul, I haveto also satisfy how hard they're
working, how hard they work fortheir money, and is it worth
what I'm asking them tosacrifice to come to my
restaurant, right?
Yeah, it's a show of respect foryour customers.

(32:23):
Yeah, it's a wild concept.
You think about it, but if youthink about it, how is somebody
gonna have a soul-satisfyingexperience and be able to feel
genuine hospitality if theyleave my restaurant and be like,
I can't ever go back thereagain, it's too expensive.
I or I don't want to go backthere because it's too
expensive.
Yeah, or I can go to the oneschool.
Exactly.
I did it, I'm done, I'm out.
Correct.
And so I think with Lovejoy, thewhat I said was, I need to

(32:45):
create a restaurant wheresomebody can come and have a
great meal and say, you knowwhat, this was delicious, but I
can actually afford to come backhere.
That to me is meeting a guestwhere they want to be met and
understanding the whole idea ofwhy we'll come back.
It's not just food, right?
It's not just a burger and aplate.
It's it's you have to meet themwhere they're at and say, how do
I create and procure thisexperience that is, you know,

(33:09):
holistically, you know, kind ofenveloping their entire essence,
right?
And so, like at Lovejoy, everyentree is between 21 and 29
bucks.
Every entree.
You want steak, you want kingsalmon, you want chicken, a
burger, everything.
And it's it's I did it onpurpose because I said I won't
be able to come in here and say,it's 28 bucks for this and only
22 for that.
I can I can spring six bucks.
Yeah.

(33:29):
Right?
Whereas other restaurants,you'll see a steak for 38 or 40
or something for 32 or 33, youknow, and these restaurants are
starting to try and push theboundaries on what they charge
for stuff.

SPEAKER_02 (33:39):
I was gonna say it sounds a little bit like
gouging.

SPEAKER_01 (33:41):
Yeah, it is, in my opinion.
Like, you know, I won't namename restaurants, but I've seen
restaurants in the area wherethey're trying to serve trout
for 34, 36 bucks.

SPEAKER_02 (33:50):
I'm not paying that.

SPEAKER_01 (33:51):
Well, you can buy trout for like$8 a pound.

SPEAKER_02 (33:53):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (33:53):
So do the math.
If you give somebody a third apound of trout, which is a it'd
say half pound, let's getfrisky.
It's four fucking dollars on theplate for the trout.
If you're at$32, do the math.
That's extortion, right?
They're they're they're juststraight lacing somebody, you
know?
And so I think what I said was,hey, let's not pick cheap
proteins like trout, you know,it's like lake perch, right?

(34:15):
Again, being 100% transparent,you know, we pay$18 to$19 a
pound for Lake Perch over atLovejoy, right?
That's expensive.
So if you give somebody a half apound of perch, right, you're
talking nine bucks, just thecost of just the perch.
That's not food cost, insurance,that's not labor cost, that's
not utilities, that's not rent.
That's just the cost of just theperch.

(34:35):
Not even the salt, not even theoil or the breadcrumbs that go
on the perch, just the perch.
Well, we're at 27 bucks.
That's a 33% cost on just theperch.
Nothing else.
Is that a good cost, Lucas?
No, it's not, right?

But here's the point (34:49):
if you walked in the love journey and
my perch was$35, would you orderit?
I wouldn't, it's too expensive.
I'm not getting that.
No way.
Not happening, right?
But the thing is, is that that'swhere it comes back to where
Bill taught me as a restaurateurhow to make money.
And that comes back to menu mix.
And we talked about originallyabout how do you blend making
money as one bucket with whatyou want to do a second bucket

(35:11):
with what the customer wants,which is a third bucket.
And it's this really delicate,symbiotic dance of how do you
blend these three thingstogether that don't want to
blend to create an experiencethat people want.
And so every time somebody buys,I won't say it, but like
chicken, for example, buy morechicken people.
Um, that's how restaurants makemoney, right?
There's things on the menu thatmake you money.

(35:33):
Whereas things like our perch,for example, that's what I call
a lost leader, right?
It's a leader for us.
We're gonna lose a little moneyon it, but we're okay doing that
because it what it does for us,it kind of reverberates through
the rest of the concept, youknow?
And so, dude, I get that.

SPEAKER_02 (35:48):
I I don't know, it was probably a month ago or
something.
I brought my wife out here,yeah.
And and we went to Lovejoy fordinner.
I got the perch.
Okay, it was amazing.
I appreciate the pricing.
Yeah, exactly.
Right?
That's the whole story.
Yeah, honestly.
Yeah, it was great.
But what about this, maybe thisfourth bucket, right?
There, because there's Luke two.

(36:09):
How are you getting yourartistry in with the tension of
running a business?

SPEAKER_01 (36:17):
Fabulous question.
So if you can indulge me, I'mgonna tell a little bit of a
story.
When I was at the CIA, Clarenceof America, um, one of the
really cool things about that ina university is you do one year
of school, it's year-round, thenyou go on a nine-month
internship, they call it anexternship, where you're forced
to leave the school for ninemonths, work somewhere else in
the real world.
And then after your nine-monthinternship, externship, excuse

(36:39):
me, you come back for yoursecond year and then you
graduate.
And so um I knew I wanted to ownrestaurants someday.
I knew I again didn't come fromyou know a gajillionaire family
could just here's millions ofbucks whoever you want.
So I knew I wanted to ownrestaurants in Michigan someday.
Um so I chose to work for theAmma Grand Plaza Hotel
Corporation.
And so they had at the time theonly mobile five diamond

(37:00):
restaurant in the state ofMichigan in the 1913.
And I said, I want to work forhigh-end restaurants.
I've been working someplace inNew York City simultaneously
while being at CIA, which is inHyde Park, about 45 minutes
north of New York City.
Um and so I kind of wanted tocontinue working for the best I
could find, right?
So I chose work at, you know,Ama Grand Plaza, which is where
the 1913 was.

(37:20):
Well, anyway, um, about sixmonths into the internship, it
was a really busy Saturdaynight, and this guest wanted a
horseradish cream sauce.
And the chef's like, I don'thave time for that shit.
You know, it did not happen.
I was like, Chef, I got it,right?
I got a minute, I was inGarmanget that day, which is
like salads, cold desserts, coldappetizers.
I was like, I got this.
So we went back to the walk-in,I grabbed some horseradish, some
lemon, some dry vermouth, someburmeny, which is like a mixture

(37:42):
of like butter and flour madeinto a paste that you can use to
make quick sauces, a little bitof heavy creams and creme
fraîche, all these differentthings.
And I just started busting thesauce real quick.
I had an induction burger aroundmy station, made it myself, got
a Tamir Chinois, which is like afine mesh strainer, strained it
through, put it in a littlesauce boat, gave it to the
server.
And they had these kind of oldschool like doors with like the
porthole kind of circle, youknow.

(38:03):
And uh so anyway, so I'm kind ofsitting there like looking in
the porthole, waiting for theguest to see the reaction.
And the server walks it over,and they, you know, give it to
the guests, they kind of pour iton their fish or whatever, and I
see this big smile.
And like right there, I waslike, fuck yeah, fucking did it.
That was awesome, right?
That was so cool.
I made that and they justsmiled.

(38:24):
Like I made their night, they'rehappy, they're excited.

SPEAKER_02 (38:26):
It's huge too.
And that feeling doesn't everget old, man, because I I uh
when I used to do like a lot ofart markets and stuff, like you
know, like you said earlier, youdon't know once once something
leaves, yeah.
Uh the life that it has now.
Yeah.
Uh, but man, like when I wouldwhen I would do these art
markets, um, to have somebody Idon't know come up and talk to
me about something I made andlike why it means something to

(38:49):
them, it feels like the samething.

SPEAKER_01 (38:51):
100%.
I totally agree.
And and so I think to answeryour question, that fourth
bucket is where do I get it?
Is it's not all the time, buthere and there, kind of in the
shadows or in the corners, youknow, at the distance, I get my
little breadcrumbs here andthere where I have those
moments, right?
Where I know that somebody had agood time, it be maybe an email
or a card, or I'll walk up to aguest, or I'll come to my one of

(39:14):
my restaurants at lunch ordinner and I'll see him smiling.
There's lots of subtle, smallways that those little wins kind
of pile up.
And that's what drives me,right?
Because at the end of the day,this is a really hard business.
It has a hugely high failurerate, which is very widely, you
know, publicized.

SPEAKER_02 (39:32):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (39:32):
And it's tough.
I mean, I'm I'm not gonnasugarcoat it.
This restaurant, the industry isvery tough.
I mean, restaurants are they'rea brutal business, they're not
for everyone.
There's a reason why it's suchan incredibly high failure rate.
And, you know, if you look atsubstance abuse issues, divorce
issues, I mean, it's got it all,right?
And I think that you have tohave that fourth bucket.

(39:53):
And for me, I think as anartist, when I see that somebody
when somebody resonates withwhat I've created, that's not
for me, right?
It's it's I I think at the endof the day, I think a lot of the
creatives probably that watchyour podcast and understand this
will agree with me when I'msaying this is we want to be
heard, right?
We all have these individual,expressive, artistic people that

(40:14):
have a voice, and we're all sodifferent individually, but we
all want acceptance.
We want somebody to say, I seethem for who they are, and
they're perfect for who theyare.
They don't need to change,right?
Because what they are is they'reperfect.
And I think that every one of usjust wants somebody to recognize
that what I'm creating isperfect and it doesn't need to
be modified, right?

(40:34):
And to all your Yelpers thatthat come at people, fuck you.
Um, because I hate it when Ihate it when people complain
about stuff, when someone'strying their best to create
something in art, right?
And and I think at the end ofthe day, it's just you have to
give people the grace forunderstanding they're putting
themselves out there and they'retrying to do something and

(40:55):
express who they are as aperson.
The truth is that when you pouryourself into it, you don't want
someone to I guess undress youlike that, right?
And so I think at the end of theday, we're all similar in terms
of we want our expression to beappreciated, understood.
And look, not everything's foreveryone.
That's okay.
Then go find what you prefer andgo there, right?

(41:17):
And so I think that, you know,that's kind of I guess how I
would talk about that, becausethat's one of the hardest things
is when you have this fourthbucket that fills you, it's also
difficult because there's peopletrying to attack that fourth
bucket.

SPEAKER_02 (41:29):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (41:30):
Right.
And and how do you kind ofprotect it for yourself?

SPEAKER_02 (41:32):
How do how do you handle the um the rejection, the
criticism, the bullshit of itall?

SPEAKER_01 (41:38):
Um, with grace.
I think that, you know, killthem with kindness, you know,
the golden rule.
I always tell my managers whenwe hire we hire on the golden
rule, do one to others.
And so, irrespective ifsomeone's mean to me, says
something horrible to me, we'llsmile, we'll say we apologize,
and you know, we'll we'll dobetter next time.
What about you though?
What about I think for me, whatI've learned is I have to just
like for example, like Yelp andall those rating sites, I don't

(42:01):
look at any of them.
Yeah, don't read the comments.
I don't, I and I don't, and Ican't because I care too much
and it's too personal to me.
I literally can't read thembecause it will it will ruin my
entire month, right?
And so it's really hard for mebecause I know there's probably
people that that hate on what Ido, and I think to myself, like,
do these people know how hardI've tried?
Do they know how how much timeI've put into everything that I
do and like how muchintentionality is into every

(42:23):
single facet of every singlesquare inch of everything in any
of my restaurants?
And so that when they saysomething negative, I'm like,
these people have no clue.
And and the funny part too isthat not to sound cocky or
gotisco, but like, really, andyou think you could create any
of this, but my friend, sittingback on your computer at home,
no, you couldn't.
How's your grilled cheese?
Exactly.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, and so it's like it'shard too, because it's you know,

(42:45):
it's people that are hating onsomething that they can't even
do, right?
And so that that part of it, Ithink, also helps me understand.
And I think the older I get, themore I, you know, I have four
kids, I have a wife, you know,my focus is my family.
And I think that I've learned ifI'm true to myself and my
employees and my family, that'sall that matters.

(43:06):
Yeah, let's do a little cheerski.
Cheers, dude.
So I guess it's a cocktail, bythe way.

SPEAKER_02 (43:10):
Dude, it's so good.
It's good, right?
It's it's so hard not to justthrow it back.
I know.

SPEAKER_01 (43:15):
They're dangerous.
This cocktail right here is oneof those ones where you could
have three or four of these andno problem, real quick, and like
it's dangerous.

SPEAKER_02 (43:23):
Okay, so let's talk about this cocktail for a second
because you kind of told me whatwas going on, but uh, I remember
when this place first opened,this was one of those things
that had like that presentationin the whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 (43:37):
Correct.
Does it still does it still comelike that?
It does, yeah.
So right behind you, uh,speaking of another artist,
Centuani, they're a local uh uhcarpentry, carpentry uh company
in the area.
They built that, it's called aguardong.
It's a French kind of like cart.
And then those wooden planksthat you see it on, um, what we
do is we actually put the glassinside of that, inside of those

(43:59):
little coquettes, those littlecast iron coquettes, they are
filled with wood chips, andwe'll actually, it's a
combination of black walnut, uha little bit of maple, um, and
uh apple wood, and we smokethat.
And then we we just put theminside that cloche, which is
that glass dome.
And so we'll do is we'll wigglethat to the table, we'll take

(44:19):
that hole, we'll put it on thetable, we'll explain the whole
situation, and we'll smoke atable side, and then we actually
kind of like wave the smoke infront of the gas.
It's really cool.
It's sends the table, and that'show I've done it.
Um, but again, it's one of thosethings where you know the clap
the glass domes were custom madefor us, the wooden cart and the
wooden, you know, uh discs thatEverything sits on that was
custom made, all by localartisans, right?

(44:41):
And the whole idea was we wantedto kind of have artists on top
of artists on top of artists,all creating this piece of art
that you consume, right?
And um, yeah, it's since dayone, it's been our best line
cocktail, it still is to thisday.
People love it.
Um, and I think it's fun too.
And like it happens every oncein a while, but my favorite
thing is when somebody isdrinking an obstacle one,

(45:03):
listening to the song obstacleone in obstacle one, because
it's on the playlist, it happensonce a night.
And so there's always a fewpeople that'll be drinking an
obstacle one while the songcomes on.
Every night?
Usually I'd say at least acouple times a week.
Love it.
And they have no clue, like whatthey don't know what the song
is.
And so if like one of us isthere, like, hey, just so you
know, you know, um, because it'sa great song, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 (45:24):
God, that's red.
All right, let's go topichappen.

SPEAKER_01 (45:26):
Yeah, let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 (45:27):
Kind of a kind of a hard turn.
All right.
When you're gone, what do youhope people say about you?

SPEAKER_01 (45:32):
I'd say three things.
Number one, I think I wantpeople to say that I was a good
dad.
You know, I try really hard toteach my kids, again, the golden
rule, how to be, you know,ladies and gentlemen, how to,
you know, treat people withempathy and respect.
That's my goal.
I think number one I'd want tosay is that my children are
reflections and representationsof me in terms of how I want

(45:54):
others treated.
You know, any one of the thingsI'm really big on is anytime we
go anywhere, I always see mykids look them in the eye and
say thank you, right?
Having mutual respect for theirpeople, um, you know, being a
lady or a gentleman, I thinkthat, you know, decorum,
empathy, and compassion arethings that are dying in today's
day and age.
And I'm trying to hold on tothat as how I raise my kids.

(46:14):
I love that.
Yeah.
And so that's one I'd say thatis huge.
I know what I would say.
Second, I'd say is um that I wasa beautiful artist when it came
to culinary arts andhospitality.
Um, I've done my my life's workis to create hospitality where
people can walk in and feel likethey're walking into my house
and have a great meal andexperience.
Um, and I would love for peopleto understand that I did what I

(46:37):
wanted to do and set out to doin my career, which was to do
really well at this.
Um, and third, I think, youknow, I'm a Christian.
Uh, I go to church.
And I think that a big part ofwho I am is, you know, making
fishers of men and, you know,leading more people to Christ.
And I think that, you know,having my beliefs be a part of
who I am is important.
Um, we're all closed on Sundaysin my restaurants.

(46:59):
I go to church on Sunday, right?
And so I think that it'ssomething where it's not overtly
obvious in my concepts because Ipurposely kind of want that
separation of church and stateif that makes sense, you know.
Um, but I also want there to bekind of a unwritten, unspoken,
hey, I'm guessing this person'sprobably, you know, a Christian
or a religious, you know.
And so that's something I thinkthat my hope is that people talk
about.

(47:19):
Uh finish the thought.
Creativity requires patience.
Everyone has creative juicesflowing in their mind, but you
have to be patient and waitingfor it to manifest into an
expression that fits you, right?
And I think that a lot of timespeople try to rush something,
they try to rush art, they tryto rush an idea.

(47:40):
And I think that having thepatience to just sit back and
let it come organically.
Let it bloom.
Yes, is is the most importantthing.
This is maybe a loaded question.
Okay.
What would your last meal be?
Ooh, great question.
Um, oh, geez.
Uh okay, I'd probably do aselection of items.
Um, it would be a combination ofsome of my favorite, so I'll

(48:02):
talk beverage first.
Um, McAllen 50 year scotch.
Yeah.
A glass of that.
Um, never had it, but it soundspretty good.
It's my last time.
But you're going out, go for it.
100%.
Um, my two favorite wines uh inCalifornia, Bond Plurbis.
Uh Plurbis is a vineyard, singlevineyard bud Bond.
And then um in Bordeaux,Chateaubriand, uh, two
Cabernet-based blends.

(48:24):
Love both those wines.
That's my beverage.
Pellegrino would be my water ofchoice.
And then for food, um I thinkthat the Lovejoy Layer Cake, I
think, would be my dessert.
That's not mine too.
It's so good.
With brown butter gelato andbananas foster.
Um, with those were the twodesserts starting backwards.
I don't know why I did that.

SPEAKER_02 (48:42):
Dude, when I when I brought my wife out here to go
there, it's so good.
So we got the what's the onewith the um with the with the
cream base with the caramel ontop?
Yeah, the carolin cream.
That's legit.
So we we had that at the table,and I was like, why don't you
put one of those pieces of cakein a in a box to go and then and
then and then that was mybreakfast.
You're like seasoning.
Oh, so good.
That was the way to start theday.

SPEAKER_01 (49:01):
Absolutely.
And then for food, I would sayit'd be uh kind of a combination
of things.
Um, there's a restaurant calledthe Cove up near uh Trevor City
up um in Leland.
They're fish and chips, it's awhitefish fish and chips,
amazing.
Um, I would have that.
I would have some really amazingsushi, you know, some bluefin,
you know, otoro tartar, um miso,miso uh sea bass, and then a

(49:25):
couple last items.
Um I would probably do a reallyperfect USDA prime New York
strip a poiv.
I think it's one of the bestthings out there if it's done
well.
Um and uh last but not least, Ilove spaghetti squash.
I love spaghetti squash.
Yeah, yeah, just like a maplebased spaghetti squash roasted,
really, really delicious, justkind of a side dish and cream

(49:47):
spinach.

SPEAKER_02 (49:47):
Hell yeah.
Yeah.
Um, what's the what's the bestor the worst advice you've ever
received?

SPEAKER_01 (49:53):
I would say the worst advice I ever got was
don't sweat the small stuff.
I think that's horseshit.
The reason I'm successful isbecause I sweated the small
stuff.
I think that details matter,especially if you're an artist,
right?
Oh, and I'm sure no one willnotice that missed brushstroke.
Yeah, they will.
Yeah, they notice.
They notice.
And I think that the details domatter.

(50:15):
And so so many times growing up,people say, Oh, don't sort of
small stuff, you'll get anxiousabout it, and it'll keep you up
at night, and yada yada yada.
Dude, if you're creative, thesmall stuff is the difference
between why they pay for yourservices versus somebody else's.
That's it, you know, and so Ithink the small stuff massively
matters, and so many people tellpeople that, which I think is

(50:35):
total bullshit.
The best piece of advice, um I Ithink probably, you know, when I
was about to go to college andmy dad wrote me a letter and uh
he gave it to me, and it was inwriting and stuff, and and one
of the things he said in therewas to just always be myself,
you know, and no matter whathappens, don't lose sight of who

(50:56):
you are, right?
And don't lose sight of theperson that you you are and who
you're gonna become, and nevercompromise your own integrity or
who you are for someone else tonot be yourself, right?
It seems so simple, yes.
And I think when I went to NewYork and Chicago, that's when I
realized, like, oh my gosh, likewhen you're in these big cities,
it's a lot harder to be yourselfwhen you're in this humongous

(51:19):
pond and you're this tiny fish,right?
And so I think that's one ofthose things where it it became
more, I think, poignant when Iwas in these larger cities about
what that actually meant.
And so I think to this day it'sstill true, you know.
And I think I think at, youknow, like for example, we're
closed Sunday, Mondays.
We talked about Sunday.
Well, on Monday, I closedMondays because how can I

(51:39):
justify when my employees arejust getting their teeth kicked
in and they're we're sounderstaffed and nobody wants to
work in restaurants right nowand all the stuff that's going
on, I need my people to break.
And so I said, you know what,we're gonna be closed Sunday
Mondays.
And I was the first person inthe area to do it.
To my knowledge, the firstrestaurant in Grand Rapids,
anywhere that I was in thenewspaper saying we're closed

(52:01):
today Mondays, I'm doing it formy people because they need to
break.
And well, then as COVID lockdownstarted getting easier in 21,
then 22, and then finally 23,fully open up and all that
stuff.
I kind of sat back with my wifeand I said, I think I'm gonna
stay closed on Mondays.
Everybody else is starting toreopen.
A lot of restaurants are openseven days a week, you know,
assholes.

(52:21):
Well, yeah, it's like, do youreally care about your people?
No, you care about profit.
Let's be real here, okay?
Don't try and come at me thatit's about anything else.
It isn't.
You want to make as much moneyas possible, right?
It's it's the truth.
And I said, if you're gonna havea conviction, don't you
shouldn't you have a conviction,right?
If your conviction is buyable ormalleable or changeable, then
it's not a conviction.

(52:42):
And I said, if you really careabout your people, to your point
of like, you know, being true toyourself, right?
Then shouldn't you keep yourconvictions?
And and I kind of said tomyself, well, you know what, I
love my employees, I wouldn't behere if it wasn't for them.
Why don't they deserve, whydoesn't everyone come deserve a
two-day weekend every singleweek?
They do.
And I said, I'm gonna be true tomyself and say, you know what,

(53:05):
if I can't make money open fivedays a week only, then I
shouldn't be in business.
Correct.
Because if I can't give everyone of them the best possible
life possible, still inside ofbeing a restaurant, then why am
I doing it?
And so I'm sure there's lots ofpeople who listen to this would
disagree with me.
They'd say this guy's an idiot.
Well, fine, that's fine.
But my personal conviction, whoI am, like me, me being true to

(53:27):
myself is how do I would I bewould I be a hypocrite if I'm
sitting at home on Sunday andMonday with my family and
they're all working?
Yes.
But if I can give them some timeoff, yes, they still work
Fridays, they still workSaturdays, obviously.
But like, what can I do as asmall olive branch to them,
right?
And so I think being true tomyself is saying my personal

(53:48):
convictions mean that everyoneshould have at least the same
basic idea, which is we all havetwo days off.
We all, everyone in the company,myself included, the same
two-day break.
Every one of us.
And I think it comes down tothat advice one day gave me,
which is be true to yourself andstick to your convictions.
And I've done that.
And so I think to this day,people love it, and we will
never be open on Sunday, Monday.

(54:08):
That's fucking rad.
Yeah, it's pretty cool.
Um, what's your walk-up song?
Walk-up song.

SPEAKER_02 (54:12):
Uh and my wife, or my wedding, my wedding.
You're gonna kick in the doorinto a room.

SPEAKER_01 (54:17):
Oh, yeah.
Fucking Luke's here.
Oh, yeah, it's the same one asmy wedding.
Slow hands by Interpol, youknow?
Yeah, fuck yeah.
Yeah, at the very like at thevery end, at the end last
refrain, right before they hitthe chorus again, it's just it's
it's all the bass, the drums,the acoustic, all of it comes in
at once, and Paul Banks vocals,and it's like, dude, it's the
best.

SPEAKER_02 (54:36):
You know, I love that at your wedding you didn't
go with some fuck that whateverfucking bullshit.
Our song at our wedding was LoveGun by Kiss.
Yeah, let's go.
Just a song about Paul Stanley'sdick, and it's like, that's how
we're starting our marriage.
I love it.

SPEAKER_01 (54:50):
Same with me.
I told him, I'm like, babe, Ilove you, but it's gonna be
Interpol and slow hands, andit's not negotiable.

SPEAKER_02 (54:56):
Yeah, if that's a problem for you, then that's a
bigger discussion.
I agree.

SPEAKER_01 (54:59):
Yeah, no, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 (55:01):
Um, what what makes you feel most like yourself?

SPEAKER_01 (55:04):
I would say when I'm at home cooking, family's around
me, fire's on, and I got abottle of red wine.
I love red wine, um, open,having a glass of red wine,
cooking, you know, kids playing,that's that feels like me.
Right.
It's just that's that's what Ilive for, and and that's that
that to me feels like a perfectsituation.

SPEAKER_02 (55:22):
Does cooking at home weigh more than putting it out
there in public?

SPEAKER_01 (55:27):
No, it's cooking it at home for me is cathartic.
I mean, it's it's it kind ofcenters me, it grounds me, it
relaxes me.
Um because it's the one timemyself actually get to cook what
I want to cook, right?
Yeah.
Where I'm not cooking forsomebody else, I'm cooking for
for me, right?
And so like last night, forexample, I told my wife, she's
like, you're an asshole.
I I made myself um uh porkchili, right?

(55:48):
I got a two-pound pork butt andI slow braised it.
And I mean, you know, I got youknow chipotle and ancho chilies
and and you know, a double bockbeer and all this stuff, and I
made this just banging porkchili.
It was I even said my wife waslike, dude, this is really good.
Like it was delicious, and noneof the kids ate it.
My wife didn't eat it.
I made them their own dinner,but I was like, I want to cook

(56:09):
something for me that's againsoul satisfying.
And I was like, this is freakingdelicious, you know.
And I went to the store and Igot some Fritos and some sour
cream because like, can you eatchili without Fritos and sour
cream?
I say no.

SPEAKER_02 (56:21):
No, the correct answer is no, correct.

SPEAKER_01 (56:22):
And so like I was like, I'm doing the whole thing,
and it was so good, but like Iin a weird way for me, it's like
it's like mental health, right?
How do I like provide mentalhealth to myself?
That's the way I do it, right?
And so the restaurant businessis so stressful and there's so
much going on.
I mean, like this weekend, forexample, uh at public owner
restaurants, we had a dishwasherand a line cook both call off on

(56:43):
the same night.
Awesome, you know, and so likehow do you fill that in?
Then on Saturday, we had a linecook with their two weeks'
notice in at 76, delicious, youknow.
And I can delicious, I can keepgoing, but like that's every
week.
Like people don't understand.
Like at Lovejoy, which wasPoquito, we've had five
dishwashers this year.
All of them just they quit ontheir own accord.
Like, I don't think peopleunderstand how hard it is to run

(57:06):
restaurants, and so you have tohave a stress mitigation and
kind of like way to get morekind of center yourself and like
how can you do things?
And so, you know, like for me,cooking is one of those ways
that I kind of just can canrelax a little bit.
Do you have any regrets?
No, I don't think so.
You know, honestly, I I thinkthat you know, life's one of

(57:26):
those things where you only getone shot at it.
And I think to liveunapologetically and unabashedly
your way is the most importantthing.
And are there things I probablycould have done this way or that
way differently?
Yeah, I'm sure.
But like, you know what, at theend of the day, like I love my
story, I love who I am.
Um I I love myself, and I thinkthat um at the end of the day,

(57:46):
you know, I'm I'm happy with whoI am.
If I could like answer thequestion, I probably could have
like eaten one less cheeseburgerwhen I was 15.
You know, um, just being totallyhonest, keeping it 100, you
know.
But um, no, and all honesty,like joking aside, I'm I'm good
with her.

SPEAKER_02 (58:02):
I got uh I've got one last question for you.

SPEAKER_01 (58:04):
Yep.

SPEAKER_02 (58:05):
Are you okay?

SPEAKER_01 (58:06):
I'm great.
You know, it's funny that youasked that, are you okay?
Because that's a question I feellike in society that people
don't ask enough, you know, andI feel like too many people,
white knuckle stuff, and peopledon't have the human decency to
just ask that, right?
And so I love that question, andI think it's very pointed as the
last question because I thinkit's one of those things where

(58:28):
especially for artistics, whereyou do pour your soul onto a
plate and people are sojudgmental of what you do
because art is very subjective,right?
Yeah, that the mental healthpart of like what you do, it's
real, you know, it really is.
And I think that part of gettingback to earlier parts we talked
about life's getting soexpensive and all these
different things, life's gettingharder.

(58:50):
And I think that people stoppingto ask people a soul satisfying
question, like, are you okay?
It's great.
And so I'm I'm I'm fabulous.
Um I love that.

SPEAKER_02 (59:02):
That makes my day.

SPEAKER_01 (59:03):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (59:03):
So all right, man.
Uh before we wrap things up,where can people find you?

SPEAKER_01 (59:08):
Yeah, so we are 1983 restaurants.
Uh we own four restaurants,public restaurants in Zealand at
131 East Main Avenue.
Um, then we have 76.
My second restaurant opened, andthat's at 52 West 8th Street in
Holland, Michigan.
And then our third and fourthare Lovejoy and Obstacle Number
One.
And those are at 90 and 92 West8th Street, also in Holland,
Michigan.

SPEAKER_02 (59:27):
Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 (59:28):
Thank you.
Thank you for sharing us.
I appreciate it.
It was awesome.
Let's get out of here.
Yeah, see ya.

SPEAKER_02 (59:40):
Bad Idea Social Club is an independent podcast made
possible by merch sales,reviews, and listener support.
And it's created and hosted byme, graphic design on the call,
and co-hosted by photographerJoe Madison.
Music is noises by Mikemaintaining the branches.
Get Bad Idea Social Clubwherever you get your podcast.