⏮ REWIND // Alyssa Pacheco: Mirror Mirror

Part of our REWIND summer series, we’re revisiting eight conversations that crawled into our brains and hearts, nested, and just live there now. This time, it’s "Alyssa Pacheco: Mirror Mirror" from Season 4.

Alyssa Pacheco (poet, author, artist) shares her story with Aaron McCall as they discuss the deeply personal nature of her work. Alyssa opens up about the influence of her family dynamics, the vulnerability in her words, and how her lived experiences serve as a form of discovery, expression, and a vehicle for creativity.

Keep up with Alyssa Pacheco:
apachecopublishings.com
IG: @lyss_poetry

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——
This episode is supported by:
Creative Mornings Grand Rapids
Merchants & Makers
——
Writer/Producer/Editor/Host:
Aaron McCall
aaronmccall.net
IG: @aaron_mccall
——
Co-Host/Sidekick/Photographer:
Joe Matteson
themattesons.co
IG: @joe_dustin
——
Music:
"Noises" by Mike Mains & The Branches
——
Support the Podcast:
Buy Merch
——
Follow Bad Idea Social Club:
badideasocialclub.com
IG: @badideasocialclub

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_04 (00:37):
Like I was 25 at the time.
So I was like, I wouldn't bespending a quarter of you know a
century searching for love inall of these wrong places.
And I just was so mad.
And his response wasn't, I'msorry, I wasn't there for you.
It wasn't, you know, I love youand I should have taught you
better.
It was, you can't blame yourfailing marriage on me.
Like that's on you.
And I'm like, yes, you're right.

(00:58):
I'm just saying, fuck you.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00):
Getting tired of hearing all these noises in my
head.
I can't see them go away.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16):
Hey, welcome back to Bad Idea Social Club Rewind.
I'm Joe Madison.

SPEAKER_02 (01:21):
And I am Aaron McCall.
And this time we are revisitingmy conversation with poet Alyssa
Pacheco.
This was from season four,episode five.
Like I said, Alyssa is a poetand author.
And dude, she she drove sixhours from Galesburg, Illinois
to sit across from me and justfucking hold nothing back.

SPEAKER_01 (01:43):
Insane.
Dude, it was so much fun.

SPEAKER_02 (01:46):
It was so much fun.
Alyssa writes from The InsideOut, and she performed a piece
about her father that juststopped me cold.

SPEAKER_01 (01:56):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:57):
And I'm not I'm not saying she's fucked up, but it
it it it it it kind of like Whatare you saying, Irma?
It made me, I guess, a littlemore comfortable in my decision
to not have children of my ownto go fuck up.
So they can't write poetry aboutyou?

(02:19):
That's it.
I can't have that shit.
Yeah.
Um, but dude, uh her her work isa testament to her strength and
relationship with words andrhythm.
Um we talked about creativity asa function of freedom, putting

(02:40):
your most private self on apage.
And man, she's she's beenthrough some stuff too.
Uh, but but she doesn't run fromher story at all.
Like she she runs at it head on.
I just I I just think she's coolas hell.

SPEAKER_01 (02:55):
Yeah, for sure.
I I really appreciate someonethat can toe the line of telling
your own story, but telling itin a way that other people can
apply their story to it.
Also, I think there's a reallythe the fact that you're
protecting your brand by nothaving children is very funny to
me.
It's so crazy.

(03:15):
I I've realized over, I don'tknow, I maybe the last decade or
so of my life I've realized howimportant poetry is to me.
I'm not a I'm not a hugeenthusiast when it comes to
reading.
But when something is written ina way that it has like a rhythm
and it like it's just easy tocome off in sorry, it's just

(03:37):
easy to rehearse and say andrecite.
There's something reallybeautiful about that art.
Oh, the thing that has made merealize poetry is so important
to me is um interestinglyenough, it's children's books.
It's reading to my kids.
If if the book I'm reading to mydaughter, my son doesn't have
like a soothing rhythm to me, Ican't read the motherfucker.

(03:59):
I can't do it.
It's like I gotta get out ofhere.
This is horrible.
It's not for me.
No, it's for children.
Oh, right.
Can you imagine?
Like, my son in my arms, I'mjust like, this shit is not for
me.
Just throw that shit down.
I was looking at him like, areyou do you like this?
Yeah.

(04:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
My poor child.
Before we dive in, don't forgetto follow wherever you're
listening.
Leave a five-star review, anddon't forget to tell your
friends.

SPEAKER_02 (04:32):
Also, this thing runs off of merch sales and
listener support and reviews.
Please go do all that stuff, orsome of it, or none of it, I
guess.
All right, here's myconversation with Alyssa
Pacheco, Mirror Mirror, Season4, Episode 5.

SPEAKER_04 (04:47):
Okay, let me get this on.
Gun?

SPEAKER_02 (04:50):
Yeah, how does that sound?

SPEAKER_04 (04:51):
That sounds good.
That's what I sound like.

SPEAKER_02 (04:53):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (04:54):
Okay.
I didn't really I didn't realizethat.
Let me get my hair out.
I just got a new haircut, so I'mstill learning how to like work
with it.
But my mom uh cuts my hair andalways has.
So I strayed away for a littlewhile because it was like
wanting to kind of ranch out onmy own and figure out, okay, she
always kind of would just cut itthe way she wanted to.

unknown (05:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (05:12):
Kind of have that mom veto.
But this time she really stuckto what the photos I gave her
and is really yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (05:18):
You gotta love that.

SPEAKER_04 (05:19):
Love it.
Love that for her, love that forme.
And then there was noawkwardness at the end where
it's like, thanks, mom.
It was like, I really love it.
Thanks, it'll rule back.
Yeah, I was like, this is great.
But she told me too before.
Um, she kind of she's like, youcan't cry.
Because when I was younger, Iagain I've always been kind of
disadversed to cutting my hair.
And she gave me bangs.
I really wanted bangs, and Ifeel like that should have been

(05:40):
the red flag right there.
Me coming to her saying, Heymom, I want bangs.
And I cried pro for probably assoon as she cut it, four hours,
maybe longer.
So she's like, You can't, and II didn't this time, of course,
but God, that's tough.

SPEAKER_02 (05:53):
I had I've not had a good track record with hair.
Really?
What do you mean?
Dude, I had a mullet till I wasa freshman in high school.
Okay.
I so like the front was picturethe sons on like home
improvement, art down themiddle, down to like your
cheeks.
Okay, and then the back wentdown to like the middle of my
back.

SPEAKER_04 (06:10):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (06:11):
And I remember distinctly in middle school,
there's a picture of me uh inthe yearbook, and I just look
like I don't know, surprised ordumbfounded, like and to make it
worse, like I was wearing a Kingof the Hill t-shirt.

SPEAKER_04 (06:26):
Oh my gosh.
Oh my gosh.
And you said that was in theyearbook, like it was full-on in
the yearbook.
Like for your photo, or justlike for the photo, that was
like right next to my name,Aaron McCall.

SPEAKER_02 (06:36):
Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_04 (06:39):
Your mother was so proud.
You signed one and gave it toher.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
Well, good for you.
I love that for you.

SPEAKER_02 (06:47):
Yeah, yeah.
I've gotten I've gotten throughit.
Therapy helps.

SPEAKER_04 (06:52):
Heard.

unknown (06:53):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (06:54):
So let's let's just start with your origin story.

SPEAKER_04 (06:57):
See.
So I'm born and raised inGalesburg, Illinois.
That's about three hours southof Chicago.
So I have lived there for mostof my life.
Um, I currently live there now.
Moved to Colorado with family,Ohio with my stepdad at the
time.
And then we came back toGalesburg, and I was probably
four, maybe a little bit older.
And I we've we've been theresince.

(07:18):
So my mom just kind of came outon her own.
She only had one sister thatlives here.
I think her sister ended upmoving there because some her
husband at the time was in themilitary, something like that.
I can't quite remember.
Terrible for my my ancestry andfamily.

SPEAKER_02 (07:29):
And also you're four, so it's okay.

SPEAKER_04 (07:31):
Yeah, but she um moved here.
We ended up liking it.
It's affordable.
I mean, you even now, I mean,but back then too, it's like
coming from Colorado Springs andum Pueblo, and it's just so
expensive to live out there.
And so I'm one of four sisters.
So we had lots of fun, lots ofarguments.

SPEAKER_02 (07:51):
You know, I was gonna say that couldn't have
been a quiet house.

SPEAKER_04 (07:54):
It was not quiet at all.
I feel like that's why when Imoved on on my own, it was like
really hard to be in silence.
So I had to like have things on.
Like that's why I love podcastsand audio because I just am so
used to that white noise beinglike my foundation.
You know, she was for a portionof our life single mom.
And so she was working a lot,and so we were home doing what

(08:15):
I'm trying to think of with theword, like a lock key, um, a
lockkey kid.

SPEAKER_02 (08:19):
Oh, oh, like a um a latchkey kid.

SPEAKER_04 (08:23):
I watched a lot of uh Judge Judy and all of that
prime cable.
Um, but my sisters and I would,yeah, they're my whole heart.
I feel like my sisters arereally big part of my identity.

SPEAKER_02 (08:37):
Yeah.
Um did you say where you fall inthe in the I did not.

SPEAKER_04 (08:40):
Thank you for asking.
I'm the second um oldest.
So my we're all about 18 monthsapart from one another.

SPEAKER_02 (08:45):
Your mom likes to schedule, dude.

SPEAKER_04 (08:47):
I guess.
I think it was just kind of likeconsecutive life happenings.
You just keep rolling with thepunches.
Um, but yeah, so I am the secondoldest, and it's recently now I
feel like we've kind of justdon't even pay attention to our
own age now because we all haveour own kids, um, or even where
we're in the lineup because it'slike we're all in kind of level
playing field.
My older sister has six kids.

SPEAKER_02 (09:09):
Goodness.

SPEAKER_04 (09:09):
Yeah, she's a champ.
And then I have um two.
So my one bio son, Avan, andthen my uh bonus daughter,
Isabella.
They're both the lights of mylife and just kind of keep me
motivated.
And then my younger sister hasum Natalie has her daughter, um,
Lennon.
So it's been really fun.
And then my youngest sister,she's she's the one that's kind
of holding out for kids.
So she's the her and her partnerare the TT and uncle that go on

(09:34):
lots of trips and sell them.
Kind of they babysit every nowand again, but they keep they
keep a distance.
They were intentional abouttheir choices.

unknown (09:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (09:42):
But we all live in the same town.
Um, we're all really close as afamily.
I mean within blocks of eachother.
I mean, yeah, it's it's reallylovely.
Gailsburg is like country, butnot like you're surrounded by
corn and stuff, but it's also Imean, there's 30,000 people that
live in the town.
So sometimes I say, like, oh,it's a country town or it's a
farm town, and it it's likepeople expect, you know, nothing
around Gale.

SPEAKER_03 (10:02):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (10:03):
But um, it's kind of on the up and up.
I feel like Galesburg is areally it's uh very family
friendly, and so I enjoy livingthere with um with my kiddos.
It's nice and my dogs.
I went to college in Galesburg.
I um am a Gale scholar, so I hada full ride for college, and
that was as a first-generationcollege graduate.
I went to Sandburg, which wasthe um community college for a

(10:24):
year, got my associates, andthen I went on to the to Knox
College, which is a liberal artscollege, uh, famous for the
Lincoln Douglas debate site.
That's my little Galesburgtidbit.
Um got my degree there in twoyears.
So that was super so altogetherbachelor's in three.

SPEAKER_02 (10:40):
And um what did your uh what are your degrees then?

SPEAKER_04 (10:43):
Yeah.
So um my I got my bachelor's inmarketing, so business
management and marketing with auh minor in industrial
psychology.
So it was kind of like aself-design situation.
Liberal arts call arts collegeis very, you know, good for
that.
Um loved it, excelled at it, butI feel like once I got to
college, I was just so burnt outof performing well at school.
And I guess to sum it up, like Iwas in this art class, and I

(11:07):
love obviously like now, like Ilove painting, I love drawing,
but at that time I was sofocused.
I was in AP calculus, AP, likeall these AP classes, and I
would skip my sorry, an artteacher.
I would skip my art class to goto the coffee house that I was
managing and before I would domy shift and just work on my
calcum work.
And so I've like always justbeen doing several different

(11:31):
things at once, like kind ofjack of all trades, master of
none, better than being a masterof one.
That's like my favorite saying.

SPEAKER_02 (11:38):
So then at what point in that story did you
discover poetry and writing andcreativity and artistry and
stuff?

SPEAKER_04 (11:44):
That's it's always like it wasn't like this like
opening or this um awakening, Iwouldn't say.
It's always been somethingthat's been a part of me, like
kind of going back to myhousehold.
My we there's four of us.
My mom had like limited capacityfor all of that, you know,
emotional chaos that we all had,kind of like, what do I call it?
It was chaos, especially whenyou know we talk about everyone

(12:05):
start menstruating and you know,you all sink up and it's like
just insane, you know.
And so she was like, journal,you need a journal.
Journal, figure it out, write itdown.
If you don't want to keep it,burn it, you don't want someone
to read it, hide it, because youknow, we're all so snoopy.
We all shared a room, so it waslike, well, not all four of us,
it was like two of us in one,two of us in the other when we

(12:26):
were working on finishing thebasement.
And so then we finally got ourown room.
When I was, I was like, I do notcare.
I'll sleep in that basement withit kind of like whatever
drywalls up, I'm down there.
Um, so it was me and my younger,my younger sister Natalie that
lived next to each other, and sowe got pretty close for a while,
but then like still we're reallygood at hiding stuff.
So I would just journal aboutall of this stuff, whether it

(12:47):
was, you know, boys that I wastalking to that I was like
obsessed over or whatever, Iwould go in these seasons of
where I'd get really, reallyinto wanting to paint or wanting
to just create.
Like I've always had a reallybig thing for like buying old
vintage clothes or thriftingclothes and then like
repurposing them somehow or justmodifying them some way, like

(13:07):
shorts or dyeing them or youknow, sewing stuff on them,
whatever the case may be.
I just love doing that.
But I felt like it was hard forme given my living situation and
me working what three jobssometimes and then doing school
and then doing track andcross-country and like
unfortunately maintaining aprimary focus on like men at
that time, boys really, right?

(13:27):
You know, in high school.
So I feel like with all of that,art didn't seem like functional.
It didn't seem like it was timethat was well spent.
And this is gonna sound soterrible because I feel like so
completely different about itnow that I almost really want to
have this come out of my mouth.
I didn't feel like it was worthmy time because it I wasn't
getting paid for it.
It wasn't like I just could Idid not have time to waste and
just sit and create.

SPEAKER_02 (13:49):
Well, and I think the appreciation for that comes
with time and experience andperspective.

SPEAKER_04 (13:55):
Yeah, and not being in survival mode.
I feel like that's a you know,and I whether it was an assumed
thing or like, you know, where Ifelt like I just had to kind of
get out.
I mean, it was just made veryevident to me when I was
younger, like growing up, like,look, we don't come from money.
You don't, you know, you'reeither gonna marry rich or
you're gonna go to school.
And my mom really all she justalways emphasized the importance

(14:17):
of education.
She'd always say to us, like,nobody can take away what you
learn.
Like, that is yours.
Like you can go through yourentire life and have millions,
all this, but like all of thatcan get taken away from you.
Like nobody can ever take awayfrom you what you know in your
knowledge base.
And that really stuck out to me.
And she's like, that's the wayto be successful.
Like, why do you why rely on aman when you can just be the
man?
You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 (14:38):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (14:39):
And that my mom was just such, my mom is such a
badass that I feel like it wasjust almost like, duh.

SPEAKER_02 (14:44):
Dude, I was literally just gonna ask you,
like, how much of a badass isyour mom?

SPEAKER_04 (14:47):
My mom's a badass, yeah.
My mom's a badass.
My mom, like I said, she umshe's a cosmetologist and she
recently got her um license tobe a barber as well.
And so she teaches barbercollege, she has her own salon,
she, you know, um teaches atTricosi University in um for
cosmetology and hairstyling.
And so just doing continueeducation, workshops.
She's a landlord.
Like, my mom is a badass.

SPEAKER_02 (15:08):
What what a perfect woman to raise four girls.

SPEAKER_04 (15:11):
Yeah, no, seriously, we often my sisters and I do a
lot of discussing that on thephone, as we are coming into our
own sense of motherhood andreally reflecting back where
like sometimes we ask ourselves,like, it could have not turned
out that, you know, like like Isaid earlier, having all of us
kind of had this like probablythe daddy issues coming out,
right?
But like had this fixation withjust prioritizing boys at such a

(15:32):
young age that it's like itcould have turned out, you know
what I mean?
Like not good for us.
Um yeah, would you ask me?
I forgot.

SPEAKER_02 (15:40):
When did you really like kind of discover and
embrace creativity?

SPEAKER_04 (15:43):
Okay, thank you.
I would say when I went toAlaska, that was my the first
time.
It was in 2016, 17, had it been2017.

SPEAKER_02 (15:53):
And you moved there.

SPEAKER_04 (15:55):
Yeah, I moved there for uh four months for the first
time.
I went there to um manage acommercial processing facility
for commercial boats.
So fish, we would go out and Iwould, you know, we go to the
seawall at the barge and I wouldbe in between these huge ice
bins, if that's what you want tocall them.
Like I'm talking about the sizeof this room, pretty much, an
ice bin.
And so, of course, you'reshoveling it all in, you got

(16:17):
your ab workout in for the day.
And I was like, I think I'mpretty sure I was the only
female that worked there.

SPEAKER_02 (16:21):
Did you love it?

SPEAKER_04 (16:21):
I loved it.
It was amazing.

SPEAKER_02 (16:23):
The I because you as soon as you started talking
about it, you just startedglowing.

SPEAKER_04 (16:26):
Oh yeah.
Oh my god, yeah.
I um I'm gonna take this.
I love Alaska.
I feel like for me, it was thefirst time that was the first
time I solo traveled.
Like before that I'd gone tolike Detroit and stuff like that
for concerts.
I've always been okay solotraveling like short distances,
but it was the first time I wasleaving my family and I
expressed how important theywere to me, a part of my being.
And it was what I needed.

(16:48):
It was the first time that I wasliterally everything that was
that was so priority in my lifethat I think didn't allow me,
didn't I give myself the spaceto dive into creativity because
I was just dealing with all thisstuff in my life.
That when I was just there, Iwas by myself.
I couldn't be asked to doanything.

SPEAKER_03 (17:06):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (17:07):
It was interesting.
You got to go and you got toreinvent yourself if you wanted
to.
Like nobody knew me because itwas my mom, you know, cut their
hair, like small town shit.

SPEAKER_03 (17:15):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (17:16):
And it wasn't like I had to be on.
I could just, you know, for thefirst time be like, I'm gonna be
me.
I'm gonna go down to this.
And I was younger, right?
So it's like I couldn't go anddrink at the bars and stuff like
that.
So I feel like it was really, Iwas forced to just sit in my own
space.
And what are you gonna do?
I started writing a ton, takingpictures.
I got really into, I would saythat's when I got into

(17:38):
watercolor because it was just,it was easier than acrylics.
You just pull out this little,this little palette and you
know, get some uh bottled waterwith you, or sometimes even from
the the you know, the beach.
And it was just really neat.
The first summer I was there, itwas still a lot of work.
I was working like 22-hour days,and I wish I was kidding.

SPEAKER_02 (18:00):
Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_04 (18:01):
I wish I was kidding.
Maybe low-key brain damage fromlack of sleep.

SPEAKER_02 (18:05):
Maybe this doesn't have to be said, but that's too
many hours.

SPEAKER_04 (18:08):
Yeah, too many hours.
I mean, you got paid for it.
Like that's a thing there.
Like there people like I cameback and someone was like,
that's not even legal.
I'm like, what do you mean?
I was like, it's seasonal work.
Everyone there knows get yourcheck in the summer because in
the winter you're not gonna havea way to make money.

SPEAKER_03 (18:19):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (18:19):
So you got people going out for, I would laugh.
I laughed.
I'm like, what are you like?
You should see these people,these men who go on this
commercial boat and they'resleeping next to ice and they're
disgusting.
And you know, I processed somechum salmon one time just to be
sent to the Philippines and in,you know, in the round whole.
And that is the slimiest shitthat I have ever like.

(18:41):
I just burned the clothesafterwards.
I I'm not kidding.
It was disgusting.
And it was like you had to gointo this blast freezer, you
know what I mean?
So, like this, you know, what isit called?
People who drive that littlething that picks up paddles.
What's that called?

SPEAKER_02 (18:52):
Oh, a little uh fucking, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 (18:54):
Whatever that thing is.
It would come in with like, youknow, this huge crate of fish,
you just tump it over and it'sjust slimy.
You're just picking it up,stacking it, picking it like
you're not thinking, you're justdoing for hours.
And then going in this blastfreezer, so then you're kind of
like in this constant process oflike thawing and cooling and
thawing and cooling, and youhave this all of this on because
I'm talking about negative 80,you know, in this freezer.

(19:15):
You cannot be in there for morethan five minutes before your
fingers start to like curl, likeyou can't curl them.
It's like they stiffen.
And you it was a buddy system,you couldn't go in there by
yourself, stuff like that, youknow what I mean?
Just because if someone were tocome in and is that a forklift,
it's a forklift.

SPEAKER_02 (19:31):
It's a forklift.

SPEAKER_04 (19:32):
It's a forklift.
When someone comes in with aforklift, they could push it
back.
And if you're not in there, ifthey don't know you're in there,
you know, there was some peopledied that died.
Yeah, not that at you know,where I worked, but at one that
was much larger.
So it was it was such an amazingexperience.
But it that year was a lot ofwork.
I was coming back.
I had missed my orientation forKnox College to work there
again.
The work ethic, like and justtrying to like money.

(19:55):
Yeah, I need this check.
And if I want to fund being ableto pay for, you know, they paid
for just the tuition.
Like I had to pay for books,obviously, like housing and
stuff like that.
And so I didn't live on campusbecause I it just didn't make
sense to me to pay that muchmoney when I had like a studio
apartment downtown that I movedinto when I was like 17, 18,
that was I was paying 260 bucksa month for.

SPEAKER_02 (20:15):
And like that's the move.

SPEAKER_04 (20:16):
What?
You know, and so I was literallya block away from the school and
a block away from the coffeehouse that I, you know, managed.
So I was like, duh.
And it was great, but again,that's probably 260 bucks a
month.
260 bucks a month, yes.
And it wasn't like it wasn'ttrash, like it wasn't trash.
It was like the little shoebox,you know, don't get me wrong.
Yeah, but still, but it wasn't,it was, it was so amazing.

(20:39):
I love my little studioapartment.
I still know the landlord.
I I've often thought about likeif I went into studio just to
paint in or just have a space,which I have my office at home.
So I'd kind of be like, notreally necessary.
Um, but that would just be cool,just to kind of you know, bring
it full circle.
Maybe if I'm working on like apro a special project or
something.

SPEAKER_02 (20:56):
Yeah.
I don't know.
I've got my office here.
I'm kind of like casuallylooking to get out of my house.

SPEAKER_04 (21:03):
Uh yeah, I understand that.

SPEAKER_02 (21:05):
Draw the line between like work and life.
You know, with the office justbeing literally right there, 10
feet that way.
It's like that line is sofucking blurry.

SPEAKER_04 (21:14):
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
In my home office, I have likemy desk for you know my writing,
and then I have my desk for likemy painting and stuff.
So it's like I can just slideover to one.
But if you saw it now, I'm notdoing much of anything in there
because I've been at vendorshows and it's been a really
busy summer where I'm not in thein the mode right now of
November through, let's even sayOctober through February.

(21:35):
You're I will probably go in andhave dinner with you, but don't
ask me to do anything.
I will that's when I will goinward.
I stopped taking commitments foryoga instruction.
I'm a yoga instructor as well.

SPEAKER_02 (21:44):
Of course you are.

SPEAKER_04 (21:46):
I love yoga.
It keeps me zen, if you will.
No, it just keeps me a littlebit sane.
Um, yeah, I uh love having thatability to just have a big
enough, you know, space that youcan try not to blow those lines.
But for me, it does get hard.
I feel like I don't have a good,sometimes a hold on knowing how

(22:07):
to set that boundary.
And I'm always like, Oh, I'llget to it.
Oh, I'll get to it.
Like, you know, that's why I'mreally bad with commissions.
I'll be so honest in sayingthat.
I need to up my game on timedeadlines for commissions.

SPEAKER_02 (22:18):
Uh commissions in terms of paintings or paintings,
poems, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (22:22):
Like recently, some sketches, stuff like that, where
I do, I'm so used to in my headbeing like, oh, you do well
under pressure.
Like you'll be fine.
And I usually have all my life.
You know what I mean?
Like, I can't tell you theamount of times I'm just you're
writing that essay at like twoin the morning and it's supposed
to be due at six.
And you're like, I got it.
Yeah.
It was nice.
So yeah, I think that um isslowly maybe my luck is running

(22:47):
out with that department.
And I need to get better atcreating routine for myself with
my painting.
With my writing, I think it'sit's so different because I'm
intentional about um notstressing myself out too much.
Because you know, the whole ideaof writer's block.

SPEAKER_02 (23:02):
Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (23:03):
Obviously it's a thing, of course, but like I
just don't really believe in it.
As far as for my own You don'tbelieve in it?
I like I know it's a real I'msaying it for like it's not like
it's not like made not made upor I'm saying it's not a dragon
or something.
Like it's not I don't believe init for my own approach to
writing because I I know myselfand I know that when I feel

(23:24):
inspired, sometimes I have tolike run to the notebook.
I love it.

SPEAKER_02 (23:29):
So you so you never get stuck.

SPEAKER_04 (23:32):
I I feel like I did for a while because I was trying
to maintain this focus on havingroutine of like get up every day
at five in the morning and do Imean do XYZ.
I journal, like that's that'sdifferent to me, I think, than
writing a poem.
Like I journal just about likewake up in the morning, like,
oh, I'm grateful for this, orlike just whatever's on your
mind is kind of like put pen topaper.
That, but that to me is not thatthat's just been like I said,

(23:54):
been a part of my life since Iwas like 12.
That's like brushing my teeth.
I don't really make time, youknow, you just do it.
Whereas when a poem, I feel likeI literally have to go and run,
or there's times I'll like pullover on the side of the road and
like hurry up and enter it intomy phone.
Um, or a lot of times recentlyI've noticed that if I like the
rule of three, if something likepops into my head three times,
I'm like, okay, there'ssomething there.

SPEAKER_02 (24:15):
I gotta write this down.

SPEAKER_04 (24:16):
Even if it's just a one-line and I'll come back to
it and maybe it'll build onitself later.

SPEAKER_02 (24:21):
So what happens in your in your head and in your
life that you're like, I'mgonna, I'm gonna write a book.

SPEAKER_04 (24:26):
Oh my gosh.
It was COVID.
You know, like everyone, I feellike that's such a like when I
say that now, I'm like, everyonesays that, but it's so true
because we are all forced tojust sit the hell inside and get
to know ourselves a little bit.
And so part of my writingprocess was that I never looked
back in my journaling since Iwas like 12.
Like I said, you just write itand you I would never read back
because it's cringe.
That's why.

(24:47):
Because it's like, what is wrongwith you, sis?
You're fine.
You know, like that man you wereworried about, like what is
going on, or like you're so downand out, like I don't push
myself too hard.
If I'm not feeling inspired, I'mnot gonna like sit down at five
in the morning and stress myselfout about writing if I'm just
not feeling it that day.
Because I know when I'movulating, when I'm in my
summer, or when I'm in my springand I'm blooming and awakening,

(25:08):
I'm more likely to be inspired.
I'm more likely to, you know,have it in me to want to sit
down and write and feel goodabout it and glowy about it, not
like, oh, gotta do this.
What do you think that's aboutthe natural cycle, I think, of
the female body.
I think that's before I knewthat, I would I would get down
on myself because I'm like, whyam I not showing up the same way

(25:29):
every single day?
People talk about on, and I lovepodcasts, like the development
podcast, but people talk aboutget up every day and do your ice
shower and or yeah, the coldplunge or your ice shower, um,
or go run that four miles in themorning at 4 a.m., all that
stuff, which is like havediscipline.
I get it, that's superimportant.
But listen to my body.
So it's like if again, I justknow myself where I know I'm

(25:53):
gonna feel inspired again.
It's not like it's gonna be thisthing I'm never gonna stumble
into again.

SPEAKER_03 (25:57):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (25:57):
So it's almost like taking the scarcity mindset away
and just relaxing into it andjust having faith in myself that
I know it's gonna come back.
And I think that's stops mebecause I feel like it's the
whole thing about writer's blockis it's almost like a
self-fulfilling prophecy whereyou're like sitting down to be
like, oh man, like it's like theanxiety gets so overwhelming

(26:18):
that it's almost like, in myopinion, causes me at least to
not be able to put anything outbecause I'm so obsessed with
putting something out.

SPEAKER_02 (26:26):
Right.
So you've written a few books bynow or a couple of books by now
with uh with another one on theway.
Yes, I and I would love to takea few minutes for you to share a
few pieces.

SPEAKER_04 (26:36):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (26:37):
Then I kind of want to break them down.

SPEAKER_04 (26:39):
Okay, so let me see.
You want to break it down, yousaid?

SPEAKER_02 (26:43):
Yeah, I want you to I want to get into it and
dissect that baby.

SPEAKER_04 (26:47):
Yeah, I'm gonna do this one, but I I'm gonna be
weird, I have to stand up.
That's all right.
Can I move this?

SPEAKER_03 (26:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (26:52):
Okay.
Gifts from my father.
The striped Baja was ahand-me-down from his adolescent
era.
A drug rug, he called it, and welaughed as the messages rang
clearer.
See, he started on his downwardspiral at an age as ripe as
mine, losing bits of himself ashe slipped and aged through
time.
Sometimes I'd see him in themirror amidst my own

(27:13):
shell-shocking life, resentinghim for guidance he couldn't
offer if he tried.
The thickness of the fabric fellodd in my saffron hand, the
moment I realized he was a boybefore a man.
It felt itchy on my skin when Itried it on to lend olive
branches of acceptance to theseextensions of him.

(27:34):
Does he know yet that I neededone thing man cannot buy?
To take up some of his space, topreoccupy his time.
And see, my longing for it leftme, grasping for a line,
salvation, no, stability.
I'd shake that tree of mine,clinging to its vines, knock
down low-hanging fruit, to bringme to my knees, to put the world

(27:54):
back into view.
The first time I was presentedwith, it's not you, it's me,
when he left me sitting on theporch at the time he'd said he'd
be, there to pick me up, tospend some time with me, to take
a segment from his day, tolisten to me speak.
But there I sat, my face grewflat, I let expectations flee.

(28:15):
And see, my desperations rootedin times his absence left me
weak, and now my feelings towardhim are merely black and bleak.
And I'm not sure just what I'dsay at his funeral, you see, not
even sure if as his daughterI'll be asked to speak.
And I suppose I'd say thingslike, he was kind in his old
age, or it was nice to hear himtell a tale, even if you've
heard him tell it a differentway, or how it was very like my

(28:37):
father, giving bits of himself,so to say, and that I suspect
why he turned out like this andchose to lead his life this way.
And I think it boils down to hisown life giver's force, that his
dad left him abandoned, it wasthe calm before the storm.
I'd recount all his ideas, I'msure one would have stuck, a big
peg, his claim to fame, anotherway to make a buck.
I'd explain how he'd hustled hiswhole life, but I'm unsure of

(28:59):
his objective.
His rationales and explanationsof both, he was protective.
He refused to let those peoplein who just may give a fuck, the
potential of our relationshippositioned in that run.
And looking back, the real giftwas his storytelling tales, the
plot relaying, his handsswaying, a slightly different
rhythm from the same old beatingdrum.
Long-winded, he'd go on and onwith ease one would become, lost

(29:21):
in the sound of the words or thesizzling humming of his halfway
heart spooing from hisair-filled lungs.
His body there in front of me,but his mind had long been gone,
stuck in that place where halfof him has existed all along.
And you can hear the passion inthe voice and wonder what it
could become.
You can hear regret deep in thetones of the songs he's never
sung.
Resentment for a life not ledand indifferent to the ones, the

(29:43):
only tether to his existence asaging overcomes.
Would he have approachedfatherhood differently if given
a single son?
Perhaps I should not wonder asthe damage has been done.
And I've worn the Baja jacket afew times, yes, of course.
Amidst my milestone blues, orwhen I felt I needed it most.
Hoping to feel connection tohim, yes, somehow.
Something more in tune, graspingto know how.

(30:07):
Hoping it would give me adifferent lens and green, envy
for all those girls who had adad but me.
Yes, a different hue, a higherview, the looking glass of his
life anew, his perspectivestained a sullen blue, and the
insight that I've longed for tosee what makes him tick, to
understand the reasons he feelsscorned and why his guard's

(30:27):
impermeably thick.
The desire to uncover, to rip uphis floorboards, who was this
man my father before I was born,and to understanding why my
presence wasn't his sole force,a reason to live up to
expectations of things a fatherhas in store.
To show his daughter love andkindness and that the world has
so much more to offer well-lovedlittle girls before they enter

(30:48):
dating wars.
But now I realize it's somethingdeeper that he hides inside
himself.
He knows and stares into thefires of his internal hell.
And knowing now that my role ismore than helping him learn to
deal with his father's absenceas I reconcile with his.

(31:36):
And I feel like there's so muchpower in just showing up as who
you are and showing up likethat's a part of my life.
You know, I feel like why, whyact like it's not there?
Instead, embrace it fully.
Instead be a mirror for other,you know, individuals,
specifically females, I wouldsay.
For me, my goal, my lifepurpose.
Empower them, you know, likemaybe someone reads that and

(31:59):
they're 16 on the cusp of, youknow, dating an older man or
something like that, wherethey're just trying to fill that
void of like guidance and loveand protection.
And who knows, maybe that justgives them some insight that
they don't have to wait untilthey're, you know, 23, 24, 25 to
stumble into.

SPEAKER_02 (32:14):
You didn't just read a poem now, like you, you, you
performed that poem.
Right?
Am I wrong?

SPEAKER_04 (32:19):
I think yeah, you're right.
I was sweating a little bit.
My little upper lip got a littlemoist.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (32:23):
Um, is there a difference when you're when when
you're sitting down to write?
You know, are you thinking ofhow this thing is to be
perceived, whether it's meant tobe read or it's meant to be
heard or it's meant to beperformed?
Like, does that affect the wayyou write it all?

SPEAKER_04 (32:37):
A hundred percent.
I'm um not in that that poemspecifically.
That one I when I remember very,very visceral, like uh when I
wrote that poem, I was likemanic, trying to just like get
it all out.
Like just I formatted it exactlyhow it is in the book.
Like I just from pen to paper,just it came out of me.
Like this, I this is gonna soundwoo-woo, but sometimes I don't

(32:58):
even feel like what I'm writingis really even mine.
It genuinely feels like it'sjust like passing through me,
and it's just like my job to putit on paper.

SPEAKER_02 (33:07):
So, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it felt like
emotionally through that throughthat piece, it started.
Okay, I've gotten my ass kicked.
Right, I'm okay.
And then it seems like the moreyou were talking about it, the
more like angry maybe you got,frustrated you got, and then
kind of at the end, it was verylike, fuck it.

SPEAKER_04 (33:27):
You know what?
I think that you hit the nail onthe head there, and I think for
me, that probably sums up notonly my relationship with my
father, but just like theexpectations that are around my
relationship with men or maybethe men that I've sought out um
to try to fill that void, orlike, you know, they say you
have to repeat a of that, youknow, wound until you just learn

(33:48):
from it, until that lesson isgained and you can you know go
through.
And so I feel I remember when Iwrote that, my father and I were
actually, you know, fightingbecause I was um dear
desperation was written when Iwas in a nine-month separation
from my uh husband, where Ilived in on my own and I was
just by myself and I was lonely,and it was you know, post-COVID,

(34:10):
where it was like, you know,that kind of it was COVID, but
people are kind of doing stuff,kind of not.
Um, and it was for me, it almostfelt necessary.
Like this to me was givingmyself permission to not only be
angry, but then to just accepthim where he's at, to then
decide, okay, well, time waitsfor no one, he's gonna die.
Uh, you know what I mean?

(34:30):
Like, would I rather have some,you know, remnant of a
relationship with my father andaccept him where he's at and
feel justified in things thatrightfully so have hurt me and
that I do feel angry about, butthen learning that anger is not
a a bad thing and anger is asecondary emotion.
So what do I really feel?
And I shared that.

(34:50):
I felt desperate, I felt, youknow, lost, I felt resentful
because, like, you know, thiswhole idea of like, I remember
when I was arguing with him, Ijust kind of said, like, you
know, we went back and forth.
And I was like, maybe if he justwould have been there, I
wouldn't be spending, like, Iwas 25 at the time.
So I was like, I wouldn't bespending a quarter of, you know,
a century searching for love inall of these wrong places.

(35:12):
And I just was so mad.
And his response wasn't, I'msorry, I wasn't there for you.
It wasn't, you know, I love youand I should have taught you
better.
It was, you can't blame yourfailing marriage on me.
Like, that's on you.
And I'm like, yes, you're right.
I'm just saying, fuck you.
And when he got a copy of thatbook, I didn't warn him about
the poem.
I didn't, you know, try to likecushion it up for him and have a

(35:35):
cozy conversation.
We haven't really talked aboutit after.
I know he read it because therewas one line he told me once,
he'd said, um, and yet he'slike, I don't think I would
have, you know, made adifference if I had a son.
And he's owned up to, you know,sense this.
I think that's it was like theconversation we needed to have
without me being there for himto just see from the deepest
part of me, like, obviouslythere's anger in that poem, but

(35:58):
there's hope, there'sabandonment.
There's this sense of justlonging for that something.
And I think as a result, youknow what I mean.
So I remember I was I'd arguedwith him and then I wrote that
because it was just it justliterally came out of me, and I
was crying.
And I have the first audio Ihave of it, I'm like, I sent it
to my sisters.
And you know, in my group chat,we all have this group chat.

(36:20):
Um, I shared that with them, andthey all just told me like they
broke down and just even myyounger sister, my youngest
sister Haley, her her father ismy stepdad.
Um, they're divorced now, buthe's my dad.
He's my dad.
Yeah.
Um and he actually saw meperform that poem, my
stepfather, on my birthday of2021.

(36:41):
And you know, there was there'snever been this like a
competitionary thing.
Like he knows how important heis in my life, and he also's
never he doesn't really care formy dad, but he does he's never
like made space to like have asoapbox of negativity.
Yeah he respects, you know,loving people where they're at.
And he came from in a situationthat wasn't very loving, you

(37:02):
know what I mean?
He was homeless and stuff likethat for a lot of his life.
So he just just meet peoplewhere they're at and do what you
can, be a good person and try tolike.
I think the biggest thing islike tell people how you feel.
Like that is my biggest thingwith even just your desperation.
Like, who cares?
It's cringe.
Who cares?
Who cares?

SPEAKER_02 (37:16):
I don't think it's cringe at all.

SPEAKER_04 (37:18):
That one.

SPEAKER_02 (37:18):
I think I don't think so.
I think you're a little bit fullof shit.

SPEAKER_04 (37:21):
Well, there's some other ones in there that I'm
sure people would beg to define.
Like, I actually had someonethat's in my hometown.
I saw her, I was at um at ourbar.
We own a bar in Gillsburg, andso she we were having a drink,
and she came over to me andshe's my neighbor as well.
And so she was like, I reallywant to talk to you about some
of the poems in there.
She's like, There were sometimes where I almost felt like
embarrassed for you.
And I was like, You think youmake that face?

(37:42):
And you everyone that I've saidthat to you would think that I
would make that face.
I was like, good.
Because that means that there'ssomething there.

SPEAKER_02 (37:48):
Yeah, it's raw.

SPEAKER_04 (37:49):
That means it's real.
That means like I'm notbullshitting.
I'm just trying, like, thatmeans who cares?
I think my life, like when I'mcreating, is if I feel like it's
pushing the envelope or it's alittle out there, do it.
If I feel uncomfortable aboutdoing it, like now, I'm not like
I'm I'm so sick of like reiningin.
Cause like when you say, Howdoes it come?
How did one you asked me in thebeginning, and I now a tangent

(38:10):
later, um, how I got into howdoes one decide to publish a
book?
It's like, like I said, I didthe podcast, I did a wellness
podcast, I did a blog associatedwith it.
That was, I think, me trying toget like safe and comfortable.
Like I've always known I wantedto be to speak to the masses, if
you will.

SPEAKER_03 (38:25):
Sure.

SPEAKER_04 (38:26):
But I just didn't know what way to do it and what
way felt safe.
So I've always had like a littleTumblr blog that I would do all
like, you know, my blog stuff ormy topography, stuff like that.
But then it was like I wouldhave these blogs, but I wouldn't
share them.
And so then there would be thislack of as much as you want to
say you create just for the sakeof creating, you want validity.
You want absolutely people, youshould you create to share, you
create for people to resonateand see.
And so these blogs, it was like,well, what do I do?

(38:48):
Because I don't really wantNancy from down the street
knowing what's going on.
But there's someone in likeCanada who could probably
resonate.
There's someone in whatever.
And so it was just so I reallyhad to walk that line.
And so I'm like, dude, ifsomeone wants to really see
what's in here, they have totake some time to sit down and
read this book.

SPEAKER_03 (39:03):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (39:04):
So that felt the safest and the most public at
the same time.
Yeah, there's a lot of stuff inthere in dear desperation,
right?
It often kind of gets called umaccidentally dear depression.
And I'm like, still on brand.

SPEAKER_02 (39:15):
Yeah, still fine.

SPEAKER_04 (39:16):
The vibe is there.
So anxiety's in there,depression's in there.
You know, those topics arethey're they're real.
Again, like, how does when youask me how do I feel being that
vulnerable?
Because everyone's depressed.
Everyone's got anxiety.
Why are we all acting like we'renot?

SPEAKER_02 (39:29):
Well, and everybody needs to relate.
You know what I mean?
Everybody needs connection.

SPEAKER_04 (39:32):
Yeah.
Some people say that they feellike when they've read it, they
like get in my head, like theyfeel like they're in my head.
So it's like introspection is alot I do, and then observational
poetry.
So I write a lot about MotherNature, like a short one I have
from Love and Liquid Form.

SPEAKER_02 (39:45):
Light me up.

SPEAKER_04 (39:46):
This one's kind of spicy.
I'll do this one and then theweeping will out.

SPEAKER_02 (39:48):
All right.

SPEAKER_04 (39:49):
Love in liquid form, dripping with desire.
I feel as alive as a summer'sbreeze, as transformative as a
blossoming spring flower.
My heart as tender as a Georgiapeach.
My fleshy insides just as sweet.
I'm dripping with desire.
It drops off my shoulders andfalls at my feet.

(40:09):
And then a cute little pictureof a peach.
And then um I love it.

SPEAKER_02 (40:16):
So I mean it's really it's it's vulnerability
in in any direction, howeveryou're feeling.

SPEAKER_04 (40:20):
Like And then this is the last one.
Um Love in liquid form.
Beneath the weeping willow, thebreeze sweeps my hair just so.
Lost in the lytt of existence,my body ebbs and flows.
The wistful wind, it whispers,hymns known by my heart alone.
I cannot sing their subtlepraises.

(40:42):
They're on our words to turn tosong.

SPEAKER_02 (40:45):
One line, I think it was in dear desperation.
And I keep going back to thevulnerability that that comes
with this medium, right?
Despite fixed photos, I fear myson will remember me as a woman
who wept often.
Unpack that for me because tojust hear the words, it it flows
like fucking music.

SPEAKER_04 (41:03):
Thank you.
Again, resiliency has alwaysbeen important up until very
recently in my life.
Two of my sayings would be youcan sleep when you're dead and
cry in the shower.
And when I became a mom, Istruggled a lot with postpartum
depression in ways that I don't,they weren't, it wasn't like the
first six months, you know.

(41:24):
Like I think the more well-knowntime for people to associate it
as postpartum depression insteadof just depression is like six
to months to a year.
That was me.
It's like six months to a yearafter um the birth, where for me
I breastfed my son until he was14 months.
And so then it was from thattime on when I stopped

(41:45):
breastfeeding him.
That field gordo hormone hormonethat I was getting every single
day was leaving my body.
And so that's when I just fellinto this very bad depression
and cried.
Like I'm I described it asleaking.
Like I would just be doingsomething just seemingly
regular.
Like I remember one timespecifically, I was going to
this grocery store and I justsaw this kind of elderly couple

(42:08):
walking out.
And you know, the gentleman hada little bit of uh heavy foot,
and his wife was helping himwalk in the most like tender
way.
Like she wasn't leading him, shewas just supporting him, but it
wasn't in a way that made him atleast I mean I don't know these
people, but from my point ofview, it didn't make him feel
like undignified, like he stillhad his autonomy.

SPEAKER_03 (42:28):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (42:29):
And I just lost it, just started crying and broke
down.
And so for me, you know, my momcried in front of me maybe like
a very specific season of herlife when we were in high
school.
And that's it.
And so for me, it was alwaysimportant.
Like I felt like I was being afailure as a mom by having
emotional responses to what Ithought were like nothing.

(42:50):
And I'm like, man, I just don'twant him to think of me as this,
like I want my son to think ofme as like strong and like how I
think of my mother.
And I just kind of softened outof it.
I feel like once I just wrote itand put it on paper, and I'm
like, it can stay there and livethere, and I got it out of my
chest, and like then I almostfelt at peace with it, right?
I started talking to myselfkindly about it and saying, you
know what?
Like it's okay, it's not onlyokay, it's like necessary for

(43:12):
him to see me cry.

SPEAKER_03 (43:13):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (43:14):
It's necessary for him to see all of these
different emotions.
I always would say to myselffrom then on, emotion is like
feeling in emotion.
Let it pass through you.
Feel it fully, let that shit go.

SPEAKER_02 (43:28):
So, what are you learning about yourself through
your writing and any of theother creative mediums you play
in?

SPEAKER_04 (43:34):
That I need new experiences.
I feel or I need to overcomecertain experiences.
I keep writing about like sortof this like similar things
where I'm like, all right,should have it off the pot.
When I'm not feeling inspired, Iread.
I'm seeking to listen to audio,whether that's an audio, like a
memoir, or you know, there's Ithink so much learning that
continuous learning that youjust naturally do and pick up by

(43:58):
reading someone else's work orlistening to, I mean, for
example, I stumbled across yourpodcast just on Spotify.

SPEAKER_02 (44:05):
Well, thank you, Spotify.

SPEAKER_04 (44:06):
Yeah, seriously.
Thank you, Spotify.
That's fucking great.

SPEAKER_02 (44:10):
Uh is there anything else we should talk about before
we go topic happening?

SPEAKER_04 (44:15):
No.

SPEAKER_02 (44:15):
Awesome.
Are you ready?

SPEAKER_04 (44:17):
Ready.

SPEAKER_02 (44:17):
When you're gone, what do you hope people say
about you?

SPEAKER_04 (44:20):
But I was honest and I was authentic and I was kind.

SPEAKER_02 (44:23):
Creativity requires freedom.

SPEAKER_04 (44:27):
Expand.
Okay, that's what that lookmeans.
Um yeah, I think it's evidentthat um without the luxury of
maybe like financial stabilityor time probably.
Probably be pretty hard tocreate and paint if you have to
like literally work three jobsto make sure your kids are taken
care of.
So it requires a luxury offreedom and stability, I would
say.

SPEAKER_02 (44:47):
What would your last meal be?

SPEAKER_04 (44:49):
Can I include more than like not food?
Like because it's like anexperience really.
Um I would say my last meal isgoing to be um a bowl like with
flour.
I mean like a bowl to smoke outof.
Because that's like theappetizer, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Getting you ready.

(45:09):
And um then I would say I'm Ilove potatoes.
So a good breakfast potatothat's like oven roasted, Yukon
gold potatoes, not like a russetor anything like that.
Yukon gold um skin on, cut intowedges at 375 for like 15
minutes, flip them, shake them,whatever, with like rosemary on

(45:32):
them, and then I wouldpersonally need to have bacon.
Eggs, they could be there, theycould not.

SPEAKER_02 (45:39):
I go the other way.
I'm all about eggs, no bacon.

SPEAKER_04 (45:41):
What's wrong with you that you don't like bacon?

unknown (45:43):
I I don't eat pork.

SPEAKER_04 (45:44):
Oh, okay, fair.

SPEAKER_02 (45:47):
I do love bacon.
And I love breakfast sausage.

SPEAKER_04 (45:50):
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (45:51):
I just I really like pigs.

SPEAKER_04 (45:56):
I wanted a pet pig when I was younger.

SPEAKER_02 (45:58):
Really?

SPEAKER_04 (45:59):
Mm-hmm.
Like a little miniature teacupone, but my mom was very
convincing that they that's nota thing.
But pigs act like dogs, I'veheard.

SPEAKER_02 (46:06):
Pigs are smart as shit.

SPEAKER_04 (46:08):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (46:08):
They're they're like dogs.
And I just can't like my guy,Winston, he's upstairs just
chilling.
Yeah.
He's he's a 90-pound pit bull,and he's my best fucking friend.
And that's what fucks me up.
And I can't, I just can'treconcile.
I know that I'm not I'm nottrying to preach.
I just I just I can't do it.
Um what's the best advice you'veever received?

SPEAKER_04 (46:30):
Just keep going.
Like life is gonna happen.
You just have to keep going.

SPEAKER_02 (46:34):
For a second, I was like, is that finding Nemo?

SPEAKER_04 (46:36):
Yeah, it is.
Yeah.
No, seriously, just keep likejust keep swimming.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (46:41):
What's the worst?

unknown (46:42):
What?

SPEAKER_04 (46:43):
I don't know.
Let me think about that.
Oh, I had a professor when I wasin college.
It was my psychology professor.
And he just think about how it'sgetting me like, it's about to
like get make me boil.
I think I said something liketangential.
And that's a funky word.
I don't know if it's a realword.
I think it is now.
I Googled it, I'm pretty sure.

(47:04):
And but my whole point was like,you know what the hell I was
trying to say.
And he like paused and likestopped me.
He was like, his advice to mewas that he thinks that I spend
too much time trying to like usebigger words than what my
essentially make myself soundsmarter and that I should just
say what I'm trying to say.

SPEAKER_02 (47:25):
Yeah, to what your funny little lady brain can
handle.

SPEAKER_04 (47:28):
And then I told I and you know, I thought about
It's a joke, by the way.
No, I do have a little bit of abird brain.
No, I'm just kidding.
No, but yeah, that was totallylike, oh, you're trying to man
explain to me?
Like, but for me, that wasn'tit.
It was the the dynamic made meuncomfortable.
Like I could feel him judging mebefore I went in there.
So it's like I it wasn't, I wasjust having a hard time
conveying myself regardless,because he made me feel like the
power dynamic was off.

(47:49):
So duh, I'm gonna probablystumble through my words and
like, duh, if you're making mefeel uncomfortable and you're
this professor that like youhave this like heightened sense,
he's like has a bunch of notNetflix documentaries and stuff
like that, whatever.
Good for him.
Um, and so there's this, this,that stigma there already where
it's like I felt like I didalmost have to like step up that
game.

SPEAKER_03 (48:09):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (48:09):
Whether it was real or not.
And then I kind of thought aboutthat for a while.
I was like, fuck you, you don'tknow me.
Like I think what irritated memore is like that he was right.
And it irritated me because hedidn't know why.
And I'm like, okay, well, yeah,you come from, you know what I
mean?
Like for the longest time, likethe way I presented myself, that
was my currency.
I didn't come from money.
I didn't come from people whoknew people in a way that was

(48:29):
like, you know, give them yourlast name and you automatically
have a foot in the fucking door.

SPEAKER_03 (48:34):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (48:34):
So yeah, he's right.
That is my like how you presentyourself, that was my currency.
And that means you have toprobably elevate in some places
and code switch.
And other times you can be chilland shoot the shit and whatever.
But then when you're trying tolearn that habit when you're in
college, it's like, dude, youcould have said what you were
saying in a way kinder way.

SPEAKER_02 (48:54):
Yeah.
Fuck that guy.

SPEAKER_04 (48:56):
Totally fuck that guy.

SPEAKER_02 (48:56):
Um, what's his name?
No, I'm just kidding.
Um, do you believe in ghosts?

SPEAKER_04 (49:04):
Oh, yeah.
When we first moved fromColorado to Illinois, I was
probably three or four, four,because I said I moved back and
I was like four-ish.
We moved into a duplex and therewas an attic, a part of the
duplex.
It was like a closet attic,whatever, in in my mom's room.
It was, and we lived on like thesouth side, so it was all in and
of itself, like it was just kindof like in south side
Gillsburg's like probably areally nice neighborhood

(49:26):
compared to like, you know,other areas.
I'm not trying to make it seemlike I had it super rough.
But um, it was interestingbecause it was just like a house
in shambles, and the upstairswas so scary.
And I swear my sisters and I,like we sometimes every now and
again, like go peek her head,and I swear we saw these like
little beady eyes, green eyes,just like because it was just

(49:46):
completely dark up there.
So one of us were, you know,like you go upstairs and push
the door open, you go push thedoor open.
So then it was my youngersister, youngest sister.
We made her push the door open.
And then she runs back down thestairs, and we're all just like
staring and looking.
And I swear, all so it'd be onething if it's like one of us saw
it or whatever, and like maybeit's like the mass mania or
whatever, but like um, orhysteria, I meant.
But I swear we saw it.

(50:08):
We all four saw it.
It'd be one thing if just one ofus did, but we all four saw it.
And the energy in it was morethe energy that I felt in the
space than the visual.
Like you would walk towards thedoor and it would just feel
freaking creepy, heavy, right?
Yes, yes, I believe in ghosts100%.

SPEAKER_02 (50:23):
Yeah, same.
Alyssa, what is a what does aperfect day look like for you?

SPEAKER_04 (50:27):
Wake up, have my little morning routine, you
know, coffee.
I just drink it black, journal.
It's nice.
I'm outside.
It's like cool 70 degrees.

SPEAKER_03 (50:40):
Love that.

SPEAKER_04 (50:40):
And it's uh you know what?
Do you know what?
I do have a poem that is like myperfect day.
Dude, light me up.
Is that okay?

SPEAKER_02 (50:50):
Light me up.
I swear to God, we didn't planthis.

SPEAKER_04 (50:53):
Yeah, don't let him lie to you.
We did.
No, I'm just kidding, we didn't.
Don't let her lie to you.
I am lying.
I'll be honest, and I don't knowif other people feel this way.
It's like after I publishedthis, I was over it.
Is that fair?

SPEAKER_02 (51:04):
Yes.

SPEAKER_04 (51:05):
Do you have any like do you resonate with that at
all?

SPEAKER_02 (51:07):
Yeah, there's a lot of times where like I'll I'll
create, like, I'll spend so muchtime and so much energy doing
like, let's say, like a seriesof paintings.
And then once they go, I don'tthink about them anymore.
I do have like nice photos.
You know, it's it's it's nice togo back and revisit.

SPEAKER_04 (51:23):
It's like childhood friends, like the memories are
there, they were once a hugepart of your life, but like you
don't talk to them every day orever.

SPEAKER_02 (51:29):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (51:29):
And they just live in their own little house now
and you remember them fondly.

SPEAKER_02 (51:33):
And I just love that wherever they are, they're just
part of somebody else's lifenow.

SPEAKER_04 (51:38):
Okay, so this is uh dear desperation.
If I could live an Octoberyear-round.
I'd admire how humble the treesare this time of year, browning
and blooming into shades ofauburn amber and tinted orange.
October means early morningcoffee, sipped silently as I
watch foliage fall freelyoutside my kitchen window.
Oh, these timeless moments asthe whistle of the wind blows by

(52:00):
my creaking house.
The cold air caresses thesurface of my skin.
Goosebump greetings remind me ofmy fickle features.
A product of evolution, aconstant give and take, out of
necessity or otherwise.
Survival, a closed-mouthedfriend.
The leaves of trees that kissthe skyline are shedding, slowly

(52:20):
savoring the art of letting go.
And I can learn a thing or twofrom them.
The ground level creatures aregearing up for survival,
collecting and gathering,harvesting all they can squirrel
away in anticipation of winter'swelcome to scarcity.
The last chance for communalrestoration before the isolating
w winter has her way.

(52:41):
October is a crisp cusp ofspontaneity, a bolt of
transformative energy, shiningthrough the deepest, darkest
parts of cyclic passing,offering beauty briefly in the
wake of green growth's demise.
This season forces me to dwellon the parts of myself I'd done
my best to lay to bed.
If I can live in Octoberyear-round, I'd never let it
end.

SPEAKER_02 (53:02):
You know what I fucking love?

SPEAKER_04 (53:04):
Tell me.

SPEAKER_02 (53:05):
I know this moment, and I know exactly what it feels
like, and it feels fuckinggreat.

SPEAKER_04 (53:10):
Yeah.
I feel like the essence of thatis just to I guess re summarize
it.
Just being at peace, likeliterally having just being
outside observing nature, justlike so comfortable.
Yeah, that's my perfect day withcoffee.
With coffee.

SPEAKER_02 (53:26):
Um, what are you listening to right now?

SPEAKER_04 (53:28):
Oh my gosh.
So right now I am on a kick ofBella White, SG Goodman, Chapel
Rome.

SPEAKER_02 (53:35):
Yeah, everybody is.

SPEAKER_04 (53:37):
Dude, I I kind of actually had like a little bit
of like a mind the other daywhen you know some of her new
stuff, I was getting really intoit.
And then I like see this old,this like 2017 album, and it was
when I was in Alaska, and I waslike, really, got into like a
handful of albums there.
It was her, but like the stylingof the music she was putting out
was just so different that whenI like rediscovered her

(53:57):
recently, I did not, I wouldhave never in a million years
guessed it was the same artist.
And again, all good music isgood music, I'll listen to
anything.
But what I seek out is more ofthe indie, the folk, the like
the chapel is like that's for meon the end of that my like
musical spectrum of stuff.
Like she's just reallyempowering.
I think I mostly I resonate andappreciate her work ethic and

(54:18):
her honesty, like just the whoshe is as a person more than I
think just the songs.
And one of the things that shesaid was like, everyone's
talking about like I'm anovernight success.
I've been doing this for 10years.
It takes 10 years to be tobecome an overnight success.

SPEAKER_02 (54:31):
Right.
What about regrets?
Do you have any regrets?

SPEAKER_04 (54:35):
Um, yes, but not that I wish it would turn out
differently.
I I regret not leaving myhometown to go to college.
But again, I didn't.
It was I I had it was my senioryear, and I was I know myself.
I was like, if I don't get outof this town, I'm gonna be here
for a while.
And if I'm here, I don't feellike I'm gonna become who I'm
gonna be.
It was I got married, you know,got proposed to when I was 19.

(54:58):
You know what I mean?
Like that was a lot.
I took on doing a lot um at avery young age.
And I think that I don't want tosay that there's a regret in
that.
I think that I don't regret thechoice, I regret the timing of
it and not getting to knowmyself enough, where now I feel
like I'm like splitting hairs tolike make sure I'm developing
this child and these childrencorrectly.

(55:19):
And you know, the struggle ofhaving a bonus daughter and
having a bioson, like how do younavigate that?
Like, you know what I mean?
Where it's like I'm still tryingto learn my sense of self and
who I am as a person.
How the fuck am I supposed totell these people what's right
or wrong, or you know what Imean?
Like I'm right there with you.
And then part of me was like,you know what?

(55:41):
I'm not gonna just arrive at whoI am.
It's gonna be like an always onthe edge of becoming.

SPEAKER_03 (55:46):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (55:46):
Like, and once I kind of got some comfort with
that, I wouldn't say that Iregret it anymore.
I just still long for thatperson.
I still long to discover her.
I still there's a lot of longingin my writing.
And a lot of that is like thefeeling of being like silently
suffocated when you're justfeeling like you have to operate

(56:07):
a certain way on these certainparameters to have an existence
that like is functional,rational, sustainable.
And now my drive isauthenticity.
Now my motivating factor is tojust be me fully and
unapologetically.
So that would probably be yeah,just the regret of not getting

(56:28):
to know me.
It's terrible.
It's like that's like my toxictreat.

SPEAKER_02 (56:31):
But yeah, I love a good toxic treat.
Okay, last question I have foryou.

SPEAKER_04 (56:36):
Go for it.

SPEAKER_02 (56:37):
Are you okay?

SPEAKER_04 (56:39):
Yeah, you know, I think I'm I think I'm actually
in a really good part of my liferight now.
Like, I think I'm finally juststepping into my sense of self
and owning it.
And being okay, just talkingabout everything.
Like for me, there's nothingthat's you know, I would say off
limits, or like everyone'sgonna, I'm this is this is who I

(56:59):
am.
And so I feel like, yeah, I'mokay, but that part of being
okay comes with the blanketstatement of like that also
means that some days I'm not.
And this morning you probablydidn't know I was like hungover
as fuck.
You know what I mean?
You know what I mean?
I went out last night.

SPEAKER_02 (57:13):
Where'd you go?

SPEAKER_04 (57:14):
Rock Rolls and Republics, I think.

SPEAKER_02 (57:16):
Yeah, they have a pretty great uh pomegranate
mojito that is fucking June.

SPEAKER_04 (57:21):
I should have got that because I got these.

SPEAKER_02 (57:22):
I call them pommy mojos.

SPEAKER_04 (57:24):
But you saw them what?

SPEAKER_02 (57:25):
I call them pomimojos.

SPEAKER_04 (57:27):
I like that.
Because isn't there a placecalled Mo Mojo's?
I went there too.

SPEAKER_02 (57:31):
There's yeah, some code 'em.

SPEAKER_04 (57:32):
I mean I went there when I had my heels off and I
was carrying them in my hand, soI don't really quite remember
it.
I thought I lost my heels thismorning.

SPEAKER_02 (57:41):
That's when people end up at Mojos.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (57:43):
I'm like, what?
I don't even remember what itlooked like.
I'm not gonna lie to you.
I remember rumors because Iparked um behind rumors and I
just had to go.
Did you go to rumors?
Yeah, I went to rumors.

SPEAKER_02 (57:50):
Yeah, rumors is great.

SPEAKER_04 (57:51):
Gailsburg doesn't have any place is always a fun
gay bars.

SPEAKER_02 (57:55):
It's so fun.

SPEAKER_04 (57:56):
Maybe I'll maybe maybe I'll open up a gay bar in
Gillsburg.

unknown (57:58):
Perfect.

SPEAKER_04 (57:59):
How are you though?
I'll reciprocate the question.
Oh are you okay?

SPEAKER_02 (58:02):
I'm pretty good.
You know, I have my good daysand my bad days.
Yeah.
But right now, I feel prettygood.

SPEAKER_04 (58:08):
I love that.

SPEAKER_02 (58:09):
Having a great conversation.
I got a couple beers in mybelly.

SPEAKER_04 (58:12):
Yeah.
Hopefully a burger in the belly.
Um no bacon, no pork.

SPEAKER_02 (58:16):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (58:16):
I'm looking forward.
I think I'm gonna do a burgerafter this.

SPEAKER_02 (58:19):
And um You're definitely gonna need some
fucking grease.

SPEAKER_04 (58:21):
Yeah, yeah.
I haven't eaten anything today.
Don't know if I can tolerate it.
Don't know if I can tolerate it.
I think I already ran to thedispensary this morning.
So I was like, oh, I'm sonauseous.

SPEAKER_02 (58:33):
Uh before we go, where can people find you?

SPEAKER_04 (58:35):
Yeah, they can find me um at my website.
It's apacheco publishings.com.
And you can find me on Instagramat lis L Y S S underscore
poetry.
Um, that's my uh tag also onTikTok, even though I don't
really tick tock much.
That's it.

SPEAKER_02 (58:51):
That's great.
All right, let's get out ofhere.
And uh yeah, let's get out ofhere.

SPEAKER_00 (58:56):
Okay.
I can't even make them go away.