August 25, 2026 • 54 mins
Part of our REWIND summer series, we’re revisiting eight conversations that crawled into our brains and hearts, nested, and just live there now. This time, it’s "Courtney Lauer: The Hurry and The Harm" from Season 6.
Courtney Lauer (graphic designer, artist) shares her story with Aaron McCall and talks about survival, control, and the strength it takes to turn pain into something honest. She opens up about surviving and processing trauma, rebuilding identity through creativity, and using art to make sense of the things that don’t have easy answers.
Keep up with Courtney Lauer:
courtneylauer.me
IG: @courtneylauer
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Writer/Producer/Editor/Host:
Aaron McCall
aaronmccall.net
IG: @aaron_mccall
——
Co-Host/Sidekick/Photographer:
Joe Matteson
themattesons.co
IG: @joe_dustin
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Music:
"Noises" by Mike Mains & The Branches
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Buy Merch
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:38):
So I want to be messy.
I want to say fuck.
I don't want to censor what Isay.
I I really want to be myself.
And I think when you figure outwhat yourself is, it won't feel
so daunting.
SPEAKER_01 (01:04):
Hey everybody, welcome back to Bad Idea Social
Club Rewind.
My name is Aaron McCall.
And I'm Joe Madison.
This time it's Courtney Lauer.
Courtney, who was the finale ofseason six, episode 10, who
episodes called The Hurry andthe Harm, named after a City and
Color song because we sharethat.
(01:25):
Like had to.
SPEAKER_02 (01:26):
Alexis on Fire has been all over my shit lately.
They're having like aresurgence.
SPEAKER_01 (01:30):
Dude, I love it.
I love that.
And those dudes are aging in away that like I am so
desperately jealous of.
SPEAKER_02 (01:37):
They're so much cooler now than they used to be.
All of them are.
They're all so much cooler.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:45):
What were we talking about?
Oh, Courtney.
Courtney is a graphic designerand artist who I met when she
was a student at Kendall Collegeof Art Design here in Grand
Rapids.
I think that was probably Imean, that had to have been
eight, ten years ago.
But I was I was out therereviewing portfolios and I'm
(02:06):
like, God damn, this kid's gotit.
But Courtney piped in from SanDiego, and man, getting here on
the podcast was so long overdue.
Yeah.
But I think it all just kind ofcame down to timing.
Um, Courtney is an incrediblycreative person with a wealth of
experience to draw from, but sheis also a survivor of gun
(02:29):
violence.
So if this topic is hard for youto sit with, um, go ahead and
skip this one.
But this does get into aconversation about creativity as
a tool for healing.
SPEAKER_02 (02:39):
That this conversation highlighted
something really interesting.
I hadn't thought about itbefore, and it's how different
everyone is when it comes todiscussing trauma in their own
trauma.
Rightfully so, Courtney reallyneeded to take time to share and
tell that story.
And trauma that I've beenthrough, um, I couldn't talk
(03:01):
about it enough.
I I had to.
I had to get it out to like helpheal from it.
I in fact got to the point whereI felt like I was annoying
people.
I was talking about it so much.
And it's fascinating to me that,and I hope it's a lesson,
because it was for me, I hopeit's a lesson for everyone else,
that healing through traumalooks different for everybody.
(03:23):
And whatever that needs to looklike for you, you need to
respect that and lean into it.
SPEAKER_01 (03:27):
And and and you know, Courtney, Courtney is a
big advocate for for mentalhealth, uh, as are we, and she
she walks the walk.
She she channels the hard stuffinto her work, shows up for the
people around her, and justdoesn't shy away from anything.
She's a she's a badass man.
SPEAKER_02 (03:45):
Yep, agreed.
So before we dive in, don'tforget to follow wherever you're
listening.
Leave a five-star review anddon't forget to tell your
friends.
SPEAKER_01 (03:53):
Also, this thing runs off of merch sales, it's
some other stuff.
What was it?
Anyways, leave us a review.
Go buy some stuff, help us out,help us run this thing, help us
pay for this shit.
All right, here's uh here'sCourtney Lauer, The Hurry and
the Harm, season six, episode10.
SPEAKER_00 (04:15):
Erin, we made it.
SPEAKER_01 (04:17):
Oh my god, dude.
I'm so glad.
Like, I was so relieved lastweek, and you're like, this
ain't happening.
I was like, I had I had justgotten a flu shot.
It was bad.
Like it would have been the thehardest, most ridiculous thing
for anybody to listen to.
SPEAKER_00 (04:30):
We would have been like, oh, we can't really form a
thought, but I love that we wereon the same page and we didn't
even know it.
SPEAKER_01 (04:36):
Dude, I had nothing in the tank.
SPEAKER_00 (04:38):
I know that's how I felt.
I was like, I'm gonna, I'm gonnabe a shell of myself and like I
know this can be good.
I know we have good thoughtstogether.
SPEAKER_01 (04:44):
Yeah.
Um, and I so I do feel like wehave a lot to get into, but I
kind of want to start at thebeginning to understand where
you came from, uh, what kind ofkid you were, that kind of
thing.
So lay it on me.
SPEAKER_00 (04:56):
Uh, I love that.
I really love that.
God, what kind of kid I was.
I think about this all often.
And I think that we actually,not even as creatives, as people
should be thinking about thismore about not only what kind of
kid that we were, but what kindof kid the people that we're
interacting with, what kind ofkid they were, because I think
it gives us so much context towhy we operate the way that we
(05:18):
do.
So I spend so much time in myadult self and then also my
inner child baby court selfbecause I just want to
understand her, and sometimesI'm so confused by her, and I
ultimately love her.
Um, I think as we get to beadults, especially in the
culture that we live in, thereis so much disconnect from our
(05:42):
like childlike wonder and somuch disconnect from who we are
as children, and I think a lotof us are actually still
children in adult bodies in themost beautiful way, and a lot of
the time we dismiss that versionof ourselves because, like I
said, it's confusing.
Like you have to step inside ofthis and go so far back to
(06:04):
connect with this version thatit might be like a almost like a
stranger.
But I have learned so much aboutmyself by tapping into who I was
as a child, and I think I'vealways been very curious, and
it's interesting to think how mycuriosity was received because I
think that it was actuallyreceived in a way that was like
(06:27):
almost like defiant.
Interesting, just always likethe why, why like how many paths
does that take us down whenwe're able to just say but why
and question things that maybelike seem normal.
SPEAKER_01 (06:38):
So, as kids, we're all pretty creative.
It sounds like you were you kindof had some walls up though.
SPEAKER_00 (06:44):
It's interesting.
I think that I didn't know that,or maybe I didn't honor how
creative and curious I was untiluntil really I maybe got to even
college.
SPEAKER_01 (06:55):
Oh, really?
That's when it started to feellike yours.
SPEAKER_00 (06:58):
Yeah, or I think maybe I assumed that everyone
was like this, that everyone hadso many thoughts about the
world, and that everyone waslike they were visual thinkers.
So I don't think I reallystarted to notice it until high
school or college that I thoughtdifferently than other people.
And I also want to say that Iwent to the high school that I
went to was like an arts highschool where we didn't have gym
(07:20):
class, we had dance class, andwhere we didn't have, you know,
we had we had art class andthings like that.
So I was surrounded by a lot ofpeople who were, you know, like
just super creative, supercreative and like socially
awkward creatives, even comingfrom me.
Like I was like these introvertsin their own space, in their own
world, like weird in a reallybeautiful way.
(07:42):
So I think that that was I kindof thought like everyone in the
world that was that way.
I wouldn't say that my parentswere like I grew up in a very
creative household, but I thinkI've always leaned on it as a
way of self-expression.
SPEAKER_01 (07:54):
How did you find it?
And then how did you use it?
SPEAKER_00 (07:56):
Yeah, that's a beautiful question.
It's so interesting because Igrew up with a twin sister who
is truly my pride and joy.
And I think what happens whenyou do have a twin is that you
are compared often between us.
I was the the more creative one,and she's a little bit more of a
logical, like analytical one.
(08:17):
Even in my mind, I think thatevery truly everyone's creative.
So I think that I, when likepeople would name that, I was
like, Oh, I I like that, I canidentify with that.
So it wasn't really this thingthat felt like it was a grit to
get there.
I felt like it really unfoldedin an interesting way that, like
I said, kind of felt likeeveryone had it.
(08:38):
And then I think the real workreally started after I got out
of college, and it's like, howwhat do I what do I do with
this?
Like tangibly, but then also inmy body, like what am I how does
this get released?
How do I make?
How do I think, etc.?
SPEAKER_01 (08:55):
Well, and you grew up religious too, spiritual.
SPEAKER_00 (08:57):
Um, in a sense, so I would say that my um family is
is believers.
Something that was interestingis that I really came into
religion more so in my like late20s.
SPEAKER_01 (09:11):
Oh, kind of, kind of on your own?
SPEAKER_00 (09:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:13):
How does that happen?
SPEAKER_00 (09:15):
Exactly.
You know what is so and you knowwhat?
I'm I always say that I'm sograteful.
I grew up with it in theperipheral, but it was never
imposed on me.
And I am so thankful that myparents were kind of just like,
you self-express in in whatfeels right to you.
Um, but but really what happenedis that in my later 20s, I think
(09:38):
I became so curious to the pointwhere asking all of these whys
really led me down a path ofwanting belonging and wanting
connection, and I think religionanswers those questions for you,
or or an attempt to truly soothea wound.
SPEAKER_01 (09:53):
And how's it how's it working out for you?
SPEAKER_00 (09:55):
Oh man, I would say that it led me to a place of
true authenticity because I wasso in it.
It answered everything in a waythat I did not expect it to.
It answered all of the thingsthat I it made it very clear
what I don't believe in and whatI don't want to be immersed in
and what I see as harmfultactics and what I feel is
(10:18):
suppressing self-expression.
Um so I think it made meconfront myself, and I think
that's a lot of what creativityis, and I think that's a lot of
what being a human is, is thatyou're asking, like, what do I
believe in?
Like, do I believe in thisbecause I in my soul believes in
it, or do I believe in itbecause I'm with like a group of
people that you know have haveled me in the way that's saying
(10:40):
this is this is the only way tofind peace.
SPEAKER_01 (10:42):
How do you confront yourself?
SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
I think that your body will tell you, and this is
actually what happened to me alot, is that when I I know, and
I think this is a great litmustest if you if someone is
feeling like they are not beingtheir most if you're in a
situation and it's like, man,I'm feeling stifled in some way,
I'm feeling suppressed in someway, I'm not feeling
self-expressed, I'm not feelingfree to be myself.
(11:05):
That is a very good indicator tome that I'm not in, that I'm
putting myself in or not in theright situation.
But when you're hearing fromfrom, I mean, think about our
culture, when you're hearingfrom our culture of saying,
like, this is the way, youreally want to make that way
work because in your mind, it'sthe only, it's the only way to
find belonging, and it's theonly way to find healing.
(11:25):
So I think a lot of the timewe're on this obsessive quest to
self-optimize, and what religiongives you is an opportunity to
be your best.
So I had noticed a ton in mylate 20s there were spaces where
I could not be my full self, andit did keep coming up for me,
and I ignored it for at leasttwo years because it would mean
(11:49):
it is a sacrifice, it does meanthat you are removing yourself
from something that you know tobe familiar, so you might lose
you do lose a sense ofconnection, but what you're
replacing is true authenticity.
So I could not ignore myintuition, and that has that has
served me beautifully, is trulylistening to myself.
SPEAKER_01 (12:11):
So, what are you learning about yourself through
not only through yourexperiences with religion, but
also like how that kind oftranslates through your
relationship with creativity?
SPEAKER_00 (12:20):
Yeah, I think the biggest thing that I learned
about myself and about whatfeels good to me is that there's
I think that there's like thisformalness or this buttoning up
that is centered aroundcreativity, and that doesn't
serve me, and that doesn't servethe people around me because I'm
literally showing up as thishalf like robotic version of
(12:44):
myself, and I think the biggestgift that you can give
communities is being yourself,and all of the advice that I had
gotten before in creativity oflike be yourself, I thought was
so trite, and the tr the triteadvice is actually the advice
that like sticks the most.
I really think being yourself isthe most freeing thing that is
(13:04):
the path to freedom.
So, what I'm learning aboutmyself is that I really want to
be messy and like I really wantthings to be out of order, and I
don't want to be polite all thetime, and I don't want to be
formal.
Like, I want people to leave aninteraction with me and say,
like, oh, I could be I could bemyself, I could be raw with her.
But the last thing that I wantto do is walk around in the
(13:25):
world in a in a shell version,in a robotic version, and I I
did do that, and I think thereare a lot of people who are
subconsciously doing that.
And the second that you'reself-censoring, like disservice
to you, disservice to thecommunity, disservice to
self-expression, disservice tocreativity.
So I want to be messy, I want tosay fuck, I don't want to censor
(13:46):
what I say.
I I really want to be myself,and I think when you figure out
what your self is, it won't feelso daunting.
SPEAKER_01 (13:52):
What is it that you want to say with your art and
your design?
SPEAKER_00 (13:56):
Man, there's so many things.
It's so interesting because Ithink in the past couple years
it has taken um a coupledifferent avenues.
But I know what in my I know inmy soul what I want to say, and
that is that I think creativityis does not have to be a
monetized tool and it does nothave to be a utility.
It is it is ultimately a healingtool.
(14:17):
And whether that is healing toyou or a whole group of people,
that I think is incrediblylife-changing, and it's been
creativity has been viewed asthis narrow lens of like
whimsical things.
Creativity is so expansive, itcould be a hundred million
things, and I think that's whatI love about it, and that's why
I backed up earlier and said,like, oh, when we when people
describe me and my twin, likesaying one of us is logical and
(14:41):
one of us is creative.
I really think that everyone iscreative, and I think there is a
there is a little bit of acrutch that says, like, no, I'm
I'm just not creative, so I'mnot gonna lean into it.
There's so many ways to discoverand think and interact that I
think make all of us creative.
We're living on this planet, sowe have to be creative.
SPEAKER_01 (14:58):
It's wild.
Like, I can't tell you how manypeople I interact with, whether
it's on the podcast or somethingadjacent, they're like, well,
I'm not, I'm not reallycreative.
I'm not, you know, and then theygo on to explain this fucking
thing that it's like, dude, youmade that from nothing.
SPEAKER_00 (15:12):
Exactly.
Even even the people who arelike planning a logical,
strategic, like create trip withtheir friends, like people are
like, Oh, I'm not I'm like, youthat it that takes creativity,
that creates discovery, that allof that.
So I'm always trying to rewirethat on people that's like, what
what would the world look likeif we all did say own that we
actually are creative and thatit isn't this this cute thing?
(15:37):
Because I think it is very veryviewed as like um a whimsical
hobby, and I think it'sincredibly transformative.
SPEAKER_01 (15:47):
What what role do you think creativity plays in
the larger context of culture,life, etc.?
SPEAKER_00 (15:54):
I think I'm grateful to see in both ways.
I see people using it in a waythat is freeing themselves and
freeing other people, and thatis the biggest inspiration to
me.
Also, I think a lot of what wesee is a um is a defense and a
rejection of creativity,especially in Western culture,
especially in the like politicalclimate that we exist in the
(16:15):
utopia of America right now, isthat those things don't matter,
is that creativity doesn'tmatter, and that it is a
extracurricular spiritualwoo-woo thing.
And I think if their creativitywas truly immersed in children's
lives more, not just as the roleof a parent of the system
(16:38):
though, then we would see peopleable to self-express.
Because what we're seeing rightnow is whether they can name it
or not, people unable to fullybe themselves.
So they are finding otheravenues, which might be
violence, which might be toxicmasculinity, which might be uh
connecting to very, veryspecific groups being extremists
(16:59):
in some ways, because creativityis unaccessible to them.
I want to make I want to saythat the even the concept of
creativity is accessible toevery person's brain and that
and that it's worth it todiscover and pursue.
SPEAKER_01 (17:11):
Especially when you start to see these like arts
programs and music programs getdefunded.
It's on one hand, I'm veryoptimistic uh because I see a
lot of um a lot of youngercreatives doing really, really
cool things.
But then it's like, okay, likeif if if you have this rug
pulled out from under you andyou never have a chance, that's
(17:33):
terrifying.
SPEAKER_00 (17:34):
It's terrifying.
And I'm not sure that thecuriosity of what those programs
actually do for kids is is eveninstilled in people in in the
larger culture.
I think people are viewing it ina way that it it isn't it isn't
like giving in it is justsomething that's there as a as a
playful thing.
SPEAKER_01 (17:53):
Even when I was a kid, it was presented as like
this is extra.
SPEAKER_00 (17:56):
And even I would say older generations may not and
I'm really working on black mindthinking and not blanket
statements.
So this is not this is not tosay that all of older
generations, I've met beautifulartists who are expressive in
school.
But the older generations, it isvery like not people are not
really sure what I do or whatlike my or essentially what my
entire essence is, which isself-expression and creativity,
(18:18):
is that they're they're veryconfused by it.
And I think they think I'm likeliving on a different planet,
and I'm like, no, we are here onplanet Earth, baby, and this
this really does matter.
SPEAKER_01 (18:28):
What about the like commodity of it all, right?
Like, do you think there's aplace for real human creativity
in a space that seems to valuespeed and quantity over quality
ideas and critical thinking andconcepts and yeah, I will tell
you that this uh very specifictopic is um the bane of my
(18:50):
existence.
SPEAKER_00 (18:51):
I think I think that efficiency is the bane of my
existence.
Um and I I come up against thisa lot because there's one part
of me that is like so unhurriedand that is true to my nature,
and then there is another partof me that does live in
corporate America, and I do wedo live around people who are,
(19:15):
like I said, obsessed withself-optimization and with
efficiency.
So I'm thinking I'm stilldiscovering that.
Like, is that possible?
Because what I see even in my inmy work, and I'm so grateful
that I mainly do, you know,months of contract and then
freelance, and so I'm I'm ableto kind of pick and choose where
I'm putting my time, but I donotice in the corporate world
(19:39):
they love speed.
So it's like, can you get thisdone quick?
And I'm like, Well, you can'thave everything, so if you want
speed, you're not going to getquality.
And that does go against so muchof what I believe in because I
think creativity, what adisservice to creativity that
you're saying it can just be itcan just be created quickly.
This this is not I don't look atcreativity as a decorative
(20:00):
nature.
I look at it as something thatis thoughtful, and it comes from
the brains of human beings withyears of experience, and how
could you just make how couldyou just make something up in in
30 minutes?
It will fall flat later on.
I will tell you the foundationwill crumble.
Um, and I think a lot of it isletting people see that, letting
that unfold because I thinkpeople need to experience the
(20:24):
like true respect of creativity.
SPEAKER_01 (20:26):
Yeah.
Are you are you uh are youfreelance right now?
Are you at a at a shop or what?
SPEAKER_00 (20:31):
I am freelance.
I would say right now I'm in Iam in a really beautiful
situation that I am working at astartup slash nonprofit for
mental health.
That's called Project HealthyMinds.
SPEAKER_01 (20:41):
Oh my god, that's right down the middle for you.
SPEAKER_00 (20:44):
Isn't that amazing?
Is everything I've dreamed of.
It really is.
So I connected with them likethree years ago.
I think I got connected with thecreative director randomly, and
I was just like, I love this, Ilove this exist.
Um, and it didn't work outbecause they're in New York and
I'm in California, and it was atthe time they're like, hey, we
want people in New York.
Um and I'm like, I'm aCalifornia girl, so that's not
gonna happen.
(21:04):
And then we got connected threeyears later, and here we are.
So I that is something I loveabout them, is like they really
respect the strategy and thecraft and pairing the human mind
with creativity.
What does that look like?
But as you know, there's beenyou know, I've been in the
agency culture, and what thatis, it's like get it done as
quick as you possibly can.
SPEAKER_01 (21:25):
Go, go, go, go, go, go, go.
SPEAKER_00 (21:26):
Yeah, and I'm like, we have lost, we have lost the
plot.
SPEAKER_01 (21:29):
You know, I think I think that was a big part in me
quitting my job, starting tofreelance on my own.
Um, because I was like, dude,like I'm not I'm not doing a
good job.
SPEAKER_00 (21:40):
Exactly.
And it's like now I amquestioning all of my like gift
in my character because there isthis outside emergency that is
so false.
It is so made up.
I think the false sense ofurgency is in everything, not
just creativity.
Oh, yeah.
Is so insane that I am I amconstantly and actively
(22:03):
rejecting that.
I see myself get like swooped upin it often, and I'm like, whoa,
Courtney, check yourself.
Because it's like that does notthat is not true creativity.
That's not my gift ofcreativity.
That's not mine.
If there's another avenue wheresomeone is ex they they that
that's how they want to expressit, great.
But being a multidimensionalperson who can think and go into
(22:24):
strategy and make a greatfoundation, it's like such a
pun, it's such a punch in thegut to dismiss all of that.
SPEAKER_01 (22:30):
Well, let me ask you this do you get more out of
doing the thing or sharing thething?
SPEAKER_00 (22:36):
Mmm.
Such a good question.
I think I get more, I think Iget more out of doing the thing.
And I say that reluctantlybecause I think sharing in on
things is in everything withcommunity people making it
outside of yourself is one ofthe most important things of
life.
But I'm really thinking about mycreative process.
(22:56):
And when I am doing the thing,like options are endless.
I think that the sense ofdiscovery when you are doing
creativity, I that is the onlytime that I lose track of hours.
That's the only thing, only timeI'm not overthinking about life.
That's not that's the only timeI'm not thinking about all of
the stupid bullshit out there.
Is that when I'm like pullinginspiration and I'm making
things and I'm in it, and Ithink sometimes this is so
(23:17):
pessimistic of me, but sometimeswhen you share, your hopes and
dreams are fucking crushed.
So that is like that's the sadpart is that you're seriously
putting so much of your heartout there, and sometimes the
sharing is actually what makesit difficult.
And honestly, by the time itgets to market, a lot of the
time it's actually not even itdoesn't look it doesn't feel or
look like my it's been beat up.
(23:39):
Exactly.
So there is this sense ofdetaching from it, but then
there's also this sense of like,how how could I?
How could I detach from it?
Because as an artist, I thinkthat is a big portion, is that
we are we are attached to it.
SPEAKER_01 (23:53):
Yeah, it's a piece of yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (23:54):
It's so exposing.
It really is.
SPEAKER_01 (23:57):
Oh, and you're you're uh you're a very hard on
your sleeve kind of person.
Is that a fair read?
Very sensitive feeling, all ofthose things.
SPEAKER_00 (24:05):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (24:07):
First in creativity and then socially, do you see
that as a weakness or as astrength?
SPEAKER_00 (24:14):
It's fascinating because I think I've always
viewed it as an immensestrength, but also it can be so
debilitating.
I think as an empath, when I'mabsorbing feedback, when I'm
absorbing people's emotions, allof that, then I'm taken away
from myself.
(24:34):
And what I need to create andwhat I need to be a
self-expressed person in theworld is to be close to myself.
So I think it is a huge learningcurve of saying I'm a I'm a very
big feeler, but I'm not gonnaget swept away by my feelings.
And to say that I've masteredthat, well, I'll never master
that, but to say I've actuallyeven confronted that part is not
(24:56):
true.
Like I that is a current questof mine, is that I want to, I
and what I do know is I want tocontinue to wear my heart on my
sleeve, and I want to bringthat, I will say I want to bring
that into corporate America, andthat might even be, I think
people hear that and it's likecute.
And it's like, to be honest, I Idon't think being gentle and
(25:18):
sensitive and tender is cute.
I think it is brave andcourageous and assertive and
life-giving and incrediblyimportant to the corporate
world.
SPEAKER_01 (25:26):
It's so human, so human.
SPEAKER_00 (25:30):
And I, and that's actually something that I have
started to only incorporate thisyear, is bringing my full self
to corporate America.
And it is so hard to do becauseespecially as women, I mean,
you're you're sending an emailand you're like, am I being too
friendly?
Am I coming off too passive?
Am I like I want to beassertive, I want to be taken
(25:51):
seriously?
And self-censoring like that isactually what becomes that's
when I show up as a robot.
And if I just go into it saying,like, okay, I'm here to be
myself, I probably I might sendyou like a heart in an email,
and I probably will send toomany smiley faces, like that is
who I am.
I am full of sensitivity and Iam full of emotion, and I think
that's actually what makes me avery, a very present designer.
SPEAKER_01 (26:16):
What's the mark that you want to leave?
SPEAKER_00 (26:18):
I really want to see oneness in the world, and I do
not say these things in a way ofI mean, I keep referring to this
thing as like cuteness because Ido think that there's this lens
on all of these whimsicalfeelings that's like, oh, like,
oh, that's so hopeful.
And it's like, but I really, Ireally believe that, and I
don't, and I don't think it'sfar-fetched that we can merge
(26:41):
humanity and corporate Americabecause I I think they've taken
on two different forms, and howhow bizarre is it that when we
are in this setting in corporateAmerica, we are one version of
ourselves, and then we go outinto our social setting and we
are a different version, andit's like, okay, we have to have
good discernments while beingself-aware.
I, you know, I'm not gonna comeup to a corporate meeting and
talk about my last hinge date,but I am going to talk about the
(27:06):
imperfect design process andjust like the messiness of it.
So the mark that I want to leaveis knowing the like healing can
happen and healing happens whenyou do that, and you can show up
fully in those spaces.
Because I will say that what youactually do in a social setting
or a religious organization orin your in your job setting, how
(27:29):
you show up starts to show up asyour full identity.
It does start to trickle intoother places.
So if I'm showing up to acorporate meeting saying, like,
I can't be too kind, I can't betoo tender, I can't make any
mistakes, it's like, okay, well,then you will start doing that
in your friendships, and thennow your arms are crossed to
everything vulnerable andexposing.
And that's a that's a veryrobotic life.
(27:51):
And what I want is a mess, Iwant a messy life, and I want
people to be messy.
SPEAKER_01 (27:55):
What do you what do you think would change if if
society started treatingcreativity as like this raw
human essential thing that it isinstead of you know, like what
we talked about with the classesearlier, like extra?
SPEAKER_00 (28:11):
I do speak in absolutes a lot, but when I say
that I think it would change theentire essence of humanity, I
really, really mean it.
I think that if we didn't putcreativity in a narrow box and
if we just labeled it asself-expression, if we let
people do that, especially youngmen, then we would have human
(28:35):
beings who are who feel free inthe world and who are getting
their needs met and who areattuned to themselves and who do
not have to go to outlets ofviolence or uh suppression of
their true self.
And then they would be able tosay, like, I am a messy open
person in the world and I'mtaking care of it, and I have
this outlet of creativity, andall my grief can go here and it
(28:57):
can go to all these otheravenues.
It doesn't have to go into theselittle boxes of things.
So I think merging those wouldmean that we we don't have to
be, we don't have to bepresented as one thing,
especially men, we don't have tobe presented as this because I
think even how it and I do seethis evolving a ton, which is so
beautiful, but like the role ofmasculinity is that artists and
(29:20):
creativity is whimsical and it'ssoft and it's tender, and that
men aren't allowed to be, youknow, expressed in that way.
And that is what a disservice tolike how robust humanity can be.
SPEAKER_01 (29:30):
And I know the idea of creativity as a means of
healing and liberation issomething that feels really
central to how you think aboutart and life.
Do you wanna you wanna dive intothat a little bit?
SPEAKER_00 (29:42):
I would love to.
SPEAKER_01 (29:43):
Give me it.
SPEAKER_00 (29:45):
Okay, great.
Just open up.
Yeah, I think that the I mean, Ithink that there's so so many
ways to healing and liberation.
And I think art is isn't one ofthem.
But what I do know about art isthat it isn't an elite group, it
(30:05):
is not exclusive, it is not onlyfor a certain type of person.
And I think that is where thatmight be an avenue that we've
gone down, which is sad that Ithink sometimes people rule
themselves out because they'relike, well, I'm I'm not that.
And I would like to say everyonecan't everyone can be that, and
(30:26):
we can actually all nurture eachother to be that in a way
because it doesn't have to beperfect, doesn't even have to be
good.
In fact, I want to make I wantto make shitty art.
And I can't even believe thatI'm saying that because I could
not have said that a year ago.
SPEAKER_01 (30:38):
Dude, I've made so much shitty art.
SPEAKER_00 (30:40):
Isn't it so liberating, isn't it?
But the I think the thought ofdoing it is like it it's so
hard.
Like things can't be perfect.
SPEAKER_01 (30:50):
Well, and I think I think once perfectionism becomes
the thing, like you've kind ofsucked the soul out of it.
SPEAKER_00 (30:56):
Holy.
It's like there's this beautifulpoem.
It's a a Celtic prayer about theapproach, just the approach to
things, life, maybe art.
I think people could probablyname it, whatever they want.
And the middle of it is that I,or the end of it is that I have
no cherished outcomes.
And I think about that oftenbecause for me as a person to
(31:18):
say I have no cherished outcomesto something is incredibly hard
beating a person withperfectionism, anxiety,
depression, all the things thatmake you human.
Yeah as an artist, I'm like,okay, that's incredibly freeing
to say I don't I can't have anoutcome.
But I think, of course, in ourculture says, like, let's what's
what is the outcome?
(31:38):
How can we how can we optimize?
Let's get to the strategy, let'sget to like the the building and
like all of this.
And it's like, whoa.
So I I'm hurt by the dismissalof art in community and wherever
the fuck the focus is.
I don't even know where thefocus is.
(31:59):
Is I the focus is on efficiencyand uh wealth and all of these
things that people have made usbelieve matter.
SPEAKER_01 (32:10):
I think just saying something matters, you know?
Use your voice however, howeverthat looks for you, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (32:17):
Well, and I think that's a beautiful way to say it
is just saying something.
Because a lot of times peopleare like, I have to say the
right thing.
It's like you actually don't.
I think that when you just saysomething, then it will
ultimately in the end, somehowsomehow turn into the right
thing.
SPEAKER_01 (32:32):
Um I do I do want to acknowledge something before we
go any further.
Um, and it is uh over over thelast year, I've seen small
glimpses that you went throughsomething difficult.
Um I never wanted to pry, butI've I've thought a lot about
(32:53):
how to hold space um for that ifyou want to talk about it.
SPEAKER_00 (32:59):
Thank you.
That means a lot.
SPEAKER_01 (33:00):
Do you want to talk about it?
SPEAKER_00 (33:02):
I would love to talk about it a little bit.
I think that it is a huge partof me forever now.
And I think that it has beenlike a huge part of my grief
slash creative journey.
SPEAKER_01 (33:17):
Well please, I'll let you I'll let you drive.
SPEAKER_00 (33:20):
Sure.
So I think that the I've alwaysI've always been a big feeler.
I've always been someone who isinterested about people and the
world and the whys and theobsessiveness of humanity and
why people do the things thatthey do.
(33:43):
And I think the last yearreally, really heightened that
for me.
And I'm also not I'm not astranger to big or negative
feelings.
I don't even want to saynegative, I want to, I just want
to say big feelings.
I don't think the feelings arebad, but I have never really
experienced like true griefuntil the past year has been one
of the most grieving years of myentire life, and I think I had I
(34:09):
had to think about the worlddifferently and had to think
about creatively differently.
And just for context, um,without going into the whole,
you know, backstory, policereport, court date, all of that.
I um was in a shooting.
I survived a shooting, which isso um insane to even say out
(34:36):
loud, but it's it's veryimportant for me to continue to
say out loud to people.
Um Yeah, I survived a shooting,and that is traumatic, and it
could have in every way beendeadly, and it wasn't.
And what I ha I had so muchgrief.
(34:59):
And the interesting thing is Ireally had to redefine grief
because I I think our perceptionof grief is like something or
someone died, and in a way, somuch of my life did die, and
parts of me did die.
Um, but I read this beautifulthing that said grief is the um
grave departure from the normalattitudes of life, and that has
truly been what the last yearhas been, is that my life was
(35:23):
turned upside down.
But what this did do was forceme to confront myself.
This I had so I was living inDenver um with my twin sister
when this happened, and I stayedthere to heal um with her and
one of my best friends for fourmonths, and I finally came back
(35:45):
to California, um, and my wholelife was different.
This is when I saw things in Imean, like I said before, all of
the cliche things are just likeso true that near-death
experiences really do make youit truly gives you new vision,
but it gave me really rawvision.
(36:05):
It gave me vision that was likeI truly could not be in spaces
that were not authentic to me.
I was very clear about what Ibelieved, I was very and all the
my beliefs have always been soimportant to me.
But I was so immersed inministry and organized religion,
and I found creative beautiful,gentle friends, and I've met
(36:26):
some of the most hospitablepeople in that.
And it is not a place where Ican self-express.
And after a near deathexperience, your body, in my
experience, like my body wouldnot even let me be in places
where I had to be small anymore,like where I could not voice my
(36:47):
opinion freely and where itwasn't received in a way of like
true advocacy.
That is so advocacy is soimportant to me.
So the shooting, in a way, was away for me to express my
advocacy even more.
Like it I thought it would makeme.
(37:07):
I mean, you would think it wouldmake me angry about the world,
and there's a time and place forthat, and I am parts of me are,
and I want to welcome thatbecause that's real.
But what it actually made me dois get unb unbelievably even
more like a traumatic surrenderto why the fuck is the world
(37:27):
this way?
Because a lot of it feltsenseless, but when you think
about it, it's actually notthere's so many things that lead
up to violence.
There's so many, like these werekids, these were teenagers, and
I have thought so much aboutwhat led to that, and what led
(37:48):
to that is lack of attuned care,lack of resources, um, lack,
lack of of family systems, lackof able to express um creativity
or self-expression or emotions,because gun violence actually is
self-expression, it's justself-expression in a in a
(38:09):
terrible, deadly way.
So I've thought so much aboutlike, okay, right now I have so
much grief that my life looks sodifferent and I had to do so
much physical and emotionalhealing.
My grief goes to creativity.
I'm I'm able to paint shittythings, like I'm able to write
constantly, I'm able to um makeart that talks about the
(38:32):
feelings of like what theloneliness that these kids must
have felt, and then the lonelyloneliness that I felt.
But I think about what whatoutlet do they have?
What outlet do other people haveif they do not have creativity?
And if other people might, theymight actually have healthy
outlets, and that's wonderful.
Mine happens to be creativity,but when people don't have that,
(38:53):
this actually is a this is aresult of not having those.
So that I think the the likeportal of creativity that I had
for all of my grief to go wastruly life-saving, and I don't I
really don't put that lightly.
So I think creativity is not itcan be playful and whimsical.
I think it can be so manythings, but for me, it is a deep
(39:17):
well of something that made meuncover things, be curious, and
think about humanity, people,and myself in a way that said,
like, what is happening here?
And I've unfolded so muchbecause of that.
Unfolded so much of myself, I'veunfolded so much of um
organizations, I've unfolded somuch of resources, people,
(39:42):
systems of power, communities,marginalized communities,
systemic racism, like all that.
I never thought that creativitywould be in all of those things,
but it is it is truly deeplyimmersed in all of those things.
SPEAKER_01 (39:56):
Courtney, how are you how are you processing
living in a culture where thisjust keeps fucking happening?
SPEAKER_00 (40:03):
It is it is truly maddening, and it was actually
maddening to me even before ithappened to me.
And then having it happen, Iwant to say that I was shocked,
but I also want to say, and thisis I I'm not downplaying the
seriousness of it because it isso serious to me that I want
(40:25):
society to realize that it isn'tas shocking that it happened
because there are so manysystems at play that helped that
happen.
There, and that's why when wesee defunded systems, we see
defunded resources, we see toxicmasculinity, we see like all of
these oppressive thingshappening.
Sometimes people are like, maybeit's not that big of a deal.
(40:47):
I am I am telling you all thoselittle micro things lead to a
lead to a macro event ofviolence.
And I held violence on thestreet for one night.
The same thing happened againthe night to I those are that
that is happening constantly.
Not I just experienced it onenight.
(41:07):
These people are in violentsituations every night, these
people are in communities wherethey're neglected, other people
are in in communities wherethey're neglected, so it's like
where what what are we doing forfor liberation and healing?
Because what we're doing is notworking, and and the idea of so
many conversations after thishappened, or what is their
(41:28):
punishment going to be?
People were very concerned withtheir punishment, and it was a
lot of older white people whothought that we um thought we
would be on the same page, and Iactually don't believe that the
obsessive idea with likepunitive punishment is is
(41:52):
restorative.
I believe that there'srehabilitation, there's
nurturing, there's creativity,there's expression, all of those
things are actually how you geta flourishing society, not by
oppressing people even more, notby stifling them even more, not
by putting them in um terriblesystems that suppress them in a
(42:18):
way that says you can't now youcan't self-express.
What would they be like if theycould self-express?
SPEAKER_01 (42:24):
Courtney, your outlook on this whole thing is
very I don't know the words.
I don't know the words, but it'sit's very um encouraging, maybe
uh and and I don't know, it kindof makes me kind of makes me
feel hopeful.
That is all I want.
Um so let's let's take a breathfor a second.
(42:45):
Yeah, come down for a second.
Let's do it.
Um and I I I don't think wewould be able to I don't think
this would be valid if if youand I sat down and did not talk
for a moment about our sharedlove for Dallas Green.
SPEAKER_00 (43:02):
Oh my gosh.
We have to.
We we owe it to him.
SPEAKER_01 (43:06):
Dude, I uh I I had the chance to see him a few
weeks ago at when we were young.
Um he was playing with Alexis onfire.
It's the first time I've everseen him outside of City in
Color.
And I was just it was stillgreat.
SPEAKER_00 (43:19):
What's his essence like?
Because I do feel like that is adifferent It's a different job.
That's a different expression ofhim.
SPEAKER_01 (43:26):
You know, it it it still it still just kind of felt
like him.
Oh, well, and that's he didn'tdress different, he didn't
present different, he didn'the's such an inspo.
SPEAKER_00 (43:35):
He is that man is himself, even in okay, he's
acoustic guitar, but then he'sgoing into, you know, like
Alexis on fire, he can still behimself.
That's like what a dream.
SPEAKER_01 (43:45):
Yeah, it's wild.
And like I I saw him probablywith with City and Color,
probably about a year or so ago.
Dude, I I had a full-onemotional experience.
SPEAKER_00 (43:57):
It's truly a spiritual thing.
I I am forever changed by him.
I really am, and I meet very fewpeople who know of him.
And but the thing I love abouthim, he doesn't care who knows
about him.
He cares about the people who doknow about him.
Like he that he's a humble man.
He's so pretty.
He's so pretty.
I need to know more about hispersonal life.
Does he have a wife?
Does he have a girlfriend?
(44:18):
Do you know?
Like, I've looked a coupletimes.
I'm like, what is your vibe?
I just want to know, I want totalk to him.
SPEAKER_01 (44:25):
God, I love it.
Um, you want to go tap andgreat.
SPEAKER_00 (44:29):
Okay, I love that.
SPEAKER_01 (44:30):
Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's an easy way
to get into this one, but whenyou're gone, what do you hope
people say about you?
SPEAKER_00 (44:36):
God, it's so beautiful.
And I even honestly before theincident, I've I've thought
about this a lot.
I truly I want I want people tosay exactly what you said.
Is that where my heart on mysleeve?
I want people to say that I wastender and thoughtful and
empathetic.
Almost to the point ofembarrassment.
(44:58):
Like I actually don't care howembarrassed how embarrassing it
is that I am a feeler and Idon't care if I'm crying in
public and I'll never apologizefor crying.
And I want to make other peoplefeel free to also not apologize
for crying.
SPEAKER_01 (45:13):
That's strength.
SPEAKER_00 (45:14):
It's so interesting because it felt not like
strength for so long, orsometimes I even go back and
forth being like, God, I'm suchan emo like I'm so emotional and
I'm so sensitive.
And it's like, now part of me,most of me is like, yeah, I've
got I took so much work to bethis sensitive, honestly.
And I think what how courageousit is to it is so brave to be a
(45:37):
feeler.
It's like you, and it actuallyyou will get rejected sometimes,
and you have to be okay withthat.
SPEAKER_01 (45:43):
I am I am almost 20 years into my career, and I
still struggle with like withthe rejection aspect of it.
Like I think I think my gutreaction is to get mad at first.
SPEAKER_00 (45:54):
You don't get art then, obviously.
SPEAKER_01 (45:56):
It's you not it's like yeah, it's like go home.
You just say thank you and moveon.
SPEAKER_00 (46:02):
For real.
SPEAKER_01 (46:03):
Oh man.
Finish the thought.
Creativity requires exposure.
SPEAKER_00 (46:09):
And I mean like being ripped open,
vulnerability.
SPEAKER_01 (46:13):
What would your last meal be?
SPEAKER_00 (46:15):
You know what?
This is really niche.
And I and someone reminded me ofthis the other day.
Some people are gonna think thisis disgusting, and because it
is.
Um, and this also might be veryMichigan.
I feel like people in Californiadon't eat this, but my last meal
would be a KFC famous bowl.
SPEAKER_04 (46:32):
Ever had it?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (46:34):
I'm telling you, like it was so that was one of
the first things I had in thehospital when I woke up, and I
was like, I want a famous bowl.
And my family was like, ofcourse, we eat whatever you
want.
And it still hits seriously thesame.
It is so good.
SPEAKER_01 (46:47):
Um, what's the what's the best or the worst
advice that you've everreceived?
SPEAKER_00 (46:52):
Ooh, that's really good.
I it sound it's so and it's whatI've been saying this whole
time, and it it sounds so trite.
And I used to be so againstcliches to the point where I'm
like, no, it has to be morepoetic.
But I truly do believe the bestadvice is to be yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (47:13):
That's so good.
SPEAKER_00 (47:14):
I really mean it, and I think I whenever people
would say that I'm like, mmm,not poetic enough, say something
better.
And it's like there's there'snothing better than that.
There is nothing better thantruly being yourself, and but
you have to figure out whatyourself is because a lot of
time we'll convince ourselvesthat our self is actually all
these self-imposed or all theseoutside imposed things, and
there's like so much noise, andthen you're like operating in
(47:35):
this weird puppetry that youthought was yourself, and it is
truly worth all the exposure,the vulnerability, the rejection
to be yourself.
You will be walking in the worldlike like you're walking on
water.
SPEAKER_01 (47:47):
You know what's interesting is I I don't think I
fully grasp who I was untilafter I quit my job, which I
think directly relates to likehow I get to express my
creativity.
So I think that just I thinkthat just supports what you've
been saying.
SPEAKER_00 (48:02):
I love when things play out in like we can actually
see like it in in practice.
SPEAKER_01 (48:08):
Um what's your what's your favorite
distraction?
SPEAKER_00 (48:11):
Oh man, my favorite distraction.
Well, okay, the my favoritedistraction if I if I want to
present in a way that I'm likeso artsy and put together is
like is painting, which has beena really fun new discovery
because I do so much digitallyon my computer that I've been
saying seriously for two yearsthat I want to do more things
(48:32):
like with like actually with myhands, and I only started doing
it this year.
SPEAKER_01 (48:36):
Have you have you considered exhibiting at all?
SPEAKER_00 (48:39):
That is such a beautiful thought because I have
only said that out loud once,and I only said it to my twin
sister because she is my safestspace, and I have not been
courageous enough to say it outloud to anyone else because then
they might hold me accountable,and then I would have to do it.
So you just kind of inspired meto maybe say it out loud to
other people because yeah, thenI would have to I would have to.
SPEAKER_01 (49:01):
Oh Courtney, I love that.
I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (49:03):
This is gonna be like a breakthrough moment.
So it's it's recorded, so now Ican't go back on it.
SPEAKER_01 (49:07):
Hell yes.
Yeah, it's documented foreverand ever and ever and ever and
ever.
Uh, what's a hill you die on?
SPEAKER_00 (49:13):
Men can be emotional, and that toxic
masculinity is hurting everyone,not just men.
And that actually beingemotional is masculine.
I mean, I'm seriously stillwaiting for my emotional
sensitive man, but I know he'sout there.
He's coming.
I'm truly in no rush.
I want authenticity, so that isno problem.
(49:36):
I I'm seeing so many heartfelt,sensitive, emotional abvocating
men, and I'm also seeing so manythat are following the orange
man, which is so scary.
SPEAKER_01 (49:48):
I do not envy dating in 2025.
SPEAKER_00 (49:50):
It is truly the most convoluted, layered, not fun
thing.
It's supposed to be fun.
It's supposed to be discovery,and a lot of it is like lack of
true connection, and that justcould never work for me.
SPEAKER_01 (50:06):
Uh, do you do you have any regrets?
SPEAKER_00 (50:08):
Wow, okay.
This is gonna make me go into aspiral of all the things that I
regret.
I think it would be I think it'dbe very inhumane for me to say
that I don't have any regrets.
This is making me think somethings.
And I'm also giving myselfpermission in my life to take
things back or like change mymind tomorrow or be wrong about
things.
So I think in my highest self, Iwould say like I don't have any
(50:30):
regrets because, of course, inthe other trite way, it led me
to X, Y, and Z.
That's that's truly what I wantto believe.
So I will say that with 50% ofmy chest, and then the other
50%, I will say, I do have somany regrets for any time that I
was not myself, or that I heldback a belief, or that I didn't
(50:50):
advocate for X, Y, and Z,because that is truly what
lights me up.
I I will go on this foreverabout self-expression, about
creativity and about communitiesand healing and all of that.
Anytime that I don't say that ina group of people who are maybe
saying the opposite, that's abig regret for me.
So I I want to continue beingthat person who maybe says
things in a group that like Iknow no one's really gonna like
(51:12):
and I really don't care.
SPEAKER_01 (51:13):
I love that.
Um, last question.
Are you okay?
SPEAKER_00 (51:20):
That is so sweet, and I am going to be okay.
SPEAKER_01 (51:25):
It's about it's about progress, right?
SPEAKER_00 (51:27):
It really is.
And I do think there issomething I understand the
obsession with everyone sayinglike I'm fine, I'm okay.
Because there is such a fear ofheart feelings, like loneliness,
all of that.
I actually totally get whypeople would reject hard
feelings because that means thatyou have to feel them.
But for me to say, yeah, I'mhappy, I'm totally okay, is a
(51:50):
lie, and I'm not a liar.
So I have full faith that at Ithat I will be okay, I think
right now I'm still in such aseason of like healing and
tenderness and all that.
That is a very interesting thingthat I noticed about I think
organized religion is that thereis this obsession to move
(52:11):
quickly past hard feelingsbecause they're gonna be taken
care of by this third party.
And the thing that actually feltmost ringing to me was to say,
like, I'm sad right now.
I'm sad, and there's actually Ican't put up a mask to say that
everything is beautiful and thatthere's like there's this under
underlying me in it.
SPEAKER_01 (52:31):
So I think who's the mask even for, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (52:36):
Truly, that is that is seriously the big question is
who is it for?
Is it protecting me?
Is it protecting them?
It's like it really is all it'sdoing is hiding me, and there's
nothing about me that I want tohide.
SPEAKER_01 (52:49):
So great.
Courtney, before we before wewrap it up, um, where can people
find you if you want that?
SPEAKER_00 (52:55):
Ooh, yes, please find me on the gram, um, my
first and last name, CourtneyLauer, and my website, um,
CourtneyLauer.me.
And I would love to chat andconnect about the human
experience and feelings and allthe things.
SPEAKER_01 (53:11):
Courtney, thank you for your vulnerability.
Thank you for figuring out afucking date to do this.
SPEAKER_00 (53:18):
Thank you for your patience.
Thank you for pursuing.
Thank you for all your greatquestions.
I so appreciate your mind.
I'm supposed to just exist.
SPEAKER_01 (53:25):
Thank you, thank you, and thank you for closing
out the season with us.
SPEAKER_00 (53:28):
Oh my gosh, I was the last.
SPEAKER_01 (53:30):
Well, I mean Greg, what do you mean?
SPEAKER_00 (53:33):
Yeah, you're the last of this has been put off
for so long.
Right.
Okay, well, I planned thisstrategically so that I can like
it.
SPEAKER_01 (53:39):
Congratulations.
I hope you're happy.
SPEAKER_00 (53:41):
I am.
SPEAKER_01 (53:41):
All right, let's get out of here.
SPEAKER_00 (53:43):
All right, see ya.
SPEAKER_01 (53:57):
It's created and hosted by me.
Graphic is done at NFL Club andco-hosts by target for Gilladis.
So I want to be messy.
I want to say fuck.
I don't want to censor what Isay.
I I really want to be myself.
And I think when you figure outwhat yourself is, it won't feel
so daunting.
SPEAKER_01 (01:04):
Hey everybody, welcome back to Bad Idea Social
Club Rewind.
My name is Aaron McCall.
And I'm Joe Madison.
This time it's Courtney Lauer.
Courtney, who was the finale ofseason six, episode 10, who
episodes called The Hurry andthe Harm, named after a City and
Color song because we sharethat.
(01:25):
Like had to.
SPEAKER_02 (01:26):
Alexis on Fire has been all over my shit lately.
They're having like aresurgence.
SPEAKER_01 (01:30):
Dude, I love it.
I love that.
And those dudes are aging in away that like I am so
desperately jealous of.
SPEAKER_02 (01:37):
They're so much cooler now than they used to be.
All of them are.
They're all so much cooler.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:45):
What were we talking about?
Oh, Courtney.
Courtney is a graphic designerand artist who I met when she
was a student at Kendall Collegeof Art Design here in Grand
Rapids.
I think that was probably Imean, that had to have been
eight, ten years ago.
But I was I was out therereviewing portfolios and I'm
(02:06):
like, God damn, this kid's gotit.
But Courtney piped in from SanDiego, and man, getting here on
the podcast was so long overdue.
Yeah.
But I think it all just kind ofcame down to timing.
Um, Courtney is an incrediblycreative person with a wealth of
experience to draw from, but sheis also a survivor of gun
(02:29):
violence.
So if this topic is hard for youto sit with, um, go ahead and
skip this one.
But this does get into aconversation about creativity as
a tool for healing.
SPEAKER_02 (02:39):
That this conversation highlighted
something really interesting.
I hadn't thought about itbefore, and it's how different
everyone is when it comes todiscussing trauma in their own
trauma.
Rightfully so, Courtney reallyneeded to take time to share and
tell that story.
And trauma that I've beenthrough, um, I couldn't talk
(03:01):
about it enough.
I I had to.
I had to get it out to like helpheal from it.
I in fact got to the point whereI felt like I was annoying
people.
I was talking about it so much.
And it's fascinating to me that,and I hope it's a lesson,
because it was for me, I hopeit's a lesson for everyone else,
that healing through traumalooks different for everybody.
(03:23):
And whatever that needs to looklike for you, you need to
respect that and lean into it.
SPEAKER_01 (03:27):
And and and you know, Courtney, Courtney is a
big advocate for for mentalhealth, uh, as are we, and she
she walks the walk.
She she channels the hard stuffinto her work, shows up for the
people around her, and justdoesn't shy away from anything.
She's a she's a badass man.
SPEAKER_02 (03:45):
Yep, agreed.
So before we dive in, don'tforget to follow wherever you're
listening.
Leave a five-star review anddon't forget to tell your
friends.
SPEAKER_01 (03:53):
Also, this thing runs off of merch sales, it's
some other stuff.
What was it?
Anyways, leave us a review.
Go buy some stuff, help us out,help us run this thing, help us
pay for this shit.
All right, here's uh here'sCourtney Lauer, The Hurry and
the Harm, season six, episode10.
SPEAKER_00 (04:15):
Erin, we made it.
SPEAKER_01 (04:17):
Oh my god, dude.
I'm so glad.
Like, I was so relieved lastweek, and you're like, this
ain't happening.
I was like, I had I had justgotten a flu shot.
It was bad.
Like it would have been the thehardest, most ridiculous thing
for anybody to listen to.
SPEAKER_00 (04:30):
We would have been like, oh, we can't really form a
thought, but I love that we wereon the same page and we didn't
even know it.
SPEAKER_01 (04:36):
Dude, I had nothing in the tank.
SPEAKER_00 (04:38):
I know that's how I felt.
I was like, I'm gonna, I'm gonnabe a shell of myself and like I
know this can be good.
I know we have good thoughtstogether.
SPEAKER_01 (04:44):
Yeah.
Um, and I so I do feel like wehave a lot to get into, but I
kind of want to start at thebeginning to understand where
you came from, uh, what kind ofkid you were, that kind of
thing.
So lay it on me.
SPEAKER_00 (04:56):
Uh, I love that.
I really love that.
God, what kind of kid I was.
I think about this all often.
And I think that we actually,not even as creatives, as people
should be thinking about thismore about not only what kind of
kid that we were, but what kindof kid the people that we're
interacting with, what kind ofkid they were, because I think
it gives us so much context towhy we operate the way that we
(05:18):
do.
So I spend so much time in myadult self and then also my
inner child baby court selfbecause I just want to
understand her, and sometimesI'm so confused by her, and I
ultimately love her.
Um, I think as we get to beadults, especially in the
culture that we live in, thereis so much disconnect from our
(05:42):
like childlike wonder and somuch disconnect from who we are
as children, and I think a lotof us are actually still
children in adult bodies in themost beautiful way, and a lot of
the time we dismiss that versionof ourselves because, like I
said, it's confusing.
Like you have to step inside ofthis and go so far back to
(06:04):
connect with this version thatit might be like a almost like a
stranger.
But I have learned so much aboutmyself by tapping into who I was
as a child, and I think I'vealways been very curious, and
it's interesting to think how mycuriosity was received because I
think that it was actuallyreceived in a way that was like
(06:27):
almost like defiant.
Interesting, just always likethe why, why like how many paths
does that take us down whenwe're able to just say but why
and question things that maybelike seem normal.
SPEAKER_01 (06:38):
So, as kids, we're all pretty creative.
It sounds like you were you kindof had some walls up though.
SPEAKER_00 (06:44):
It's interesting.
I think that I didn't know that,or maybe I didn't honor how
creative and curious I was untiluntil really I maybe got to even
college.
SPEAKER_01 (06:55):
Oh, really?
That's when it started to feellike yours.
SPEAKER_00 (06:58):
Yeah, or I think maybe I assumed that everyone
was like this, that everyone hadso many thoughts about the
world, and that everyone waslike they were visual thinkers.
So I don't think I reallystarted to notice it until high
school or college that I thoughtdifferently than other people.
And I also want to say that Iwent to the high school that I
went to was like an arts highschool where we didn't have gym
(07:20):
class, we had dance class, andwhere we didn't have, you know,
we had we had art class andthings like that.
So I was surrounded by a lot ofpeople who were, you know, like
just super creative, supercreative and like socially
awkward creatives, even comingfrom me.
Like I was like these introvertsin their own space, in their own
world, like weird in a reallybeautiful way.
(07:42):
So I think that that was I kindof thought like everyone in the
world that was that way.
I wouldn't say that my parentswere like I grew up in a very
creative household, but I thinkI've always leaned on it as a
way of self-expression.
SPEAKER_01 (07:54):
How did you find it?
And then how did you use it?
SPEAKER_00 (07:56):
Yeah, that's a beautiful question.
It's so interesting because Igrew up with a twin sister who
is truly my pride and joy.
And I think what happens whenyou do have a twin is that you
are compared often between us.
I was the the more creative one,and she's a little bit more of a
logical, like analytical one.
(08:17):
Even in my mind, I think thatevery truly everyone's creative.
So I think that I, when likepeople would name that, I was
like, Oh, I I like that, I canidentify with that.
So it wasn't really this thingthat felt like it was a grit to
get there.
I felt like it really unfoldedin an interesting way that, like
I said, kind of felt likeeveryone had it.
(08:38):
And then I think the real workreally started after I got out
of college, and it's like, howwhat do I what do I do with
this?
Like tangibly, but then also inmy body, like what am I how does
this get released?
How do I make?
How do I think, etc.?
SPEAKER_01 (08:55):
Well, and you grew up religious too, spiritual.
SPEAKER_00 (08:57):
Um, in a sense, so I would say that my um family is
is believers.
Something that was interestingis that I really came into
religion more so in my like late20s.
SPEAKER_01 (09:11):
Oh, kind of, kind of on your own?
SPEAKER_00 (09:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:13):
How does that happen?
SPEAKER_00 (09:15):
Exactly.
You know what is so and you knowwhat?
I'm I always say that I'm sograteful.
I grew up with it in theperipheral, but it was never
imposed on me.
And I am so thankful that myparents were kind of just like,
you self-express in in whatfeels right to you.
Um, but but really what happenedis that in my later 20s, I think
(09:38):
I became so curious to the pointwhere asking all of these whys
really led me down a path ofwanting belonging and wanting
connection, and I think religionanswers those questions for you,
or or an attempt to truly soothea wound.
SPEAKER_01 (09:53):
And how's it how's it working out for you?
SPEAKER_00 (09:55):
Oh man, I would say that it led me to a place of
true authenticity because I wasso in it.
It answered everything in a waythat I did not expect it to.
It answered all of the thingsthat I it made it very clear
what I don't believe in and whatI don't want to be immersed in
and what I see as harmfultactics and what I feel is
(10:18):
suppressing self-expression.
Um so I think it made meconfront myself, and I think
that's a lot of what creativityis, and I think that's a lot of
what being a human is, is thatyou're asking, like, what do I
believe in?
Like, do I believe in thisbecause I in my soul believes in
it, or do I believe in itbecause I'm with like a group of
people that you know have haveled me in the way that's saying
(10:40):
this is this is the only way tofind peace.
SPEAKER_01 (10:42):
How do you confront yourself?
SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
I think that your body will tell you, and this is
actually what happened to me alot, is that when I I know, and
I think this is a great litmustest if you if someone is
feeling like they are not beingtheir most if you're in a
situation and it's like, man,I'm feeling stifled in some way,
I'm feeling suppressed in someway, I'm not feeling
self-expressed, I'm not feelingfree to be myself.
(11:05):
That is a very good indicator tome that I'm not in, that I'm
putting myself in or not in theright situation.
But when you're hearing fromfrom, I mean, think about our
culture, when you're hearingfrom our culture of saying,
like, this is the way, youreally want to make that way
work because in your mind, it'sthe only, it's the only way to
find belonging, and it's theonly way to find healing.
(11:25):
So I think a lot of the timewe're on this obsessive quest to
self-optimize, and what religiongives you is an opportunity to
be your best.
So I had noticed a ton in mylate 20s there were spaces where
I could not be my full self, andit did keep coming up for me,
and I ignored it for at leasttwo years because it would mean
(11:49):
it is a sacrifice, it does meanthat you are removing yourself
from something that you know tobe familiar, so you might lose
you do lose a sense ofconnection, but what you're
replacing is true authenticity.
So I could not ignore myintuition, and that has that has
served me beautifully, is trulylistening to myself.
SPEAKER_01 (12:11):
So, what are you learning about yourself through
not only through yourexperiences with religion, but
also like how that kind oftranslates through your
relationship with creativity?
SPEAKER_00 (12:20):
Yeah, I think the biggest thing that I learned
about myself and about whatfeels good to me is that there's
I think that there's like thisformalness or this buttoning up
that is centered aroundcreativity, and that doesn't
serve me, and that doesn't servethe people around me because I'm
literally showing up as thishalf like robotic version of
(12:44):
myself, and I think the biggestgift that you can give
communities is being yourself,and all of the advice that I had
gotten before in creativity oflike be yourself, I thought was
so trite, and the tr the triteadvice is actually the advice
that like sticks the most.
I really think being yourself isthe most freeing thing that is
(13:04):
the path to freedom.
So, what I'm learning aboutmyself is that I really want to
be messy and like I really wantthings to be out of order, and I
don't want to be polite all thetime, and I don't want to be
formal.
Like, I want people to leave aninteraction with me and say,
like, oh, I could be I could bemyself, I could be raw with her.
But the last thing that I wantto do is walk around in the
(13:25):
world in a in a shell version,in a robotic version, and I I
did do that, and I think thereare a lot of people who are
subconsciously doing that.
And the second that you'reself-censoring, like disservice
to you, disservice to thecommunity, disservice to
self-expression, disservice tocreativity.
So I want to be messy, I want tosay fuck, I don't want to censor
(13:46):
what I say.
I I really want to be myself,and I think when you figure out
what your self is, it won't feelso daunting.
SPEAKER_01 (13:52):
What is it that you want to say with your art and
your design?
SPEAKER_00 (13:56):
Man, there's so many things.
It's so interesting because Ithink in the past couple years
it has taken um a coupledifferent avenues.
But I know what in my I know inmy soul what I want to say, and
that is that I think creativityis does not have to be a
monetized tool and it does nothave to be a utility.
It is it is ultimately a healingtool.
(14:17):
And whether that is healing toyou or a whole group of people,
that I think is incrediblylife-changing, and it's been
creativity has been viewed asthis narrow lens of like
whimsical things.
Creativity is so expansive, itcould be a hundred million
things, and I think that's whatI love about it, and that's why
I backed up earlier and said,like, oh, when we when people
describe me and my twin, likesaying one of us is logical and
(14:41):
one of us is creative.
I really think that everyone iscreative, and I think there is a
there is a little bit of acrutch that says, like, no, I'm
I'm just not creative, so I'mnot gonna lean into it.
There's so many ways to discoverand think and interact that I
think make all of us creative.
We're living on this planet, sowe have to be creative.
SPEAKER_01 (14:58):
It's wild.
Like, I can't tell you how manypeople I interact with, whether
it's on the podcast or somethingadjacent, they're like, well,
I'm not, I'm not reallycreative.
I'm not, you know, and then theygo on to explain this fucking
thing that it's like, dude, youmade that from nothing.
SPEAKER_00 (15:12):
Exactly.
Even even the people who arelike planning a logical,
strategic, like create trip withtheir friends, like people are
like, Oh, I'm not I'm like, youthat it that takes creativity,
that creates discovery, that allof that.
So I'm always trying to rewirethat on people that's like, what
what would the world look likeif we all did say own that we
actually are creative and thatit isn't this this cute thing?
(15:37):
Because I think it is very veryviewed as like um a whimsical
hobby, and I think it'sincredibly transformative.
SPEAKER_01 (15:47):
What what role do you think creativity plays in
the larger context of culture,life, etc.?
SPEAKER_00 (15:54):
I think I'm grateful to see in both ways.
I see people using it in a waythat is freeing themselves and
freeing other people, and thatis the biggest inspiration to
me.
Also, I think a lot of what wesee is a um is a defense and a
rejection of creativity,especially in Western culture,
especially in the like politicalclimate that we exist in the
(16:15):
utopia of America right now, isthat those things don't matter,
is that creativity doesn'tmatter, and that it is a
extracurricular spiritualwoo-woo thing.
And I think if their creativitywas truly immersed in children's
lives more, not just as the roleof a parent of the system
(16:38):
though, then we would see peopleable to self-express.
Because what we're seeing rightnow is whether they can name it
or not, people unable to fullybe themselves.
So they are finding otheravenues, which might be
violence, which might be toxicmasculinity, which might be uh
connecting to very, veryspecific groups being extremists
(16:59):
in some ways, because creativityis unaccessible to them.
I want to make I want to saythat the even the concept of
creativity is accessible toevery person's brain and that
and that it's worth it todiscover and pursue.
SPEAKER_01 (17:11):
Especially when you start to see these like arts
programs and music programs getdefunded.
It's on one hand, I'm veryoptimistic uh because I see a
lot of um a lot of youngercreatives doing really, really
cool things.
But then it's like, okay, likeif if if you have this rug
pulled out from under you andyou never have a chance, that's
(17:33):
terrifying.
SPEAKER_00 (17:34):
It's terrifying.
And I'm not sure that thecuriosity of what those programs
actually do for kids is is eveninstilled in people in in the
larger culture.
I think people are viewing it ina way that it it isn't it isn't
like giving in it is justsomething that's there as a as a
playful thing.
SPEAKER_01 (17:53):
Even when I was a kid, it was presented as like
this is extra.
SPEAKER_00 (17:56):
And even I would say older generations may not and
I'm really working on black mindthinking and not blanket
statements.
So this is not this is not tosay that all of older
generations, I've met beautifulartists who are expressive in
school.
But the older generations, it isvery like not people are not
really sure what I do or whatlike my or essentially what my
entire essence is, which isself-expression and creativity,
(18:18):
is that they're they're veryconfused by it.
And I think they think I'm likeliving on a different planet,
and I'm like, no, we are here onplanet Earth, baby, and this
this really does matter.
SPEAKER_01 (18:28):
What about the like commodity of it all, right?
Like, do you think there's aplace for real human creativity
in a space that seems to valuespeed and quantity over quality
ideas and critical thinking andconcepts and yeah, I will tell
you that this uh very specifictopic is um the bane of my
(18:50):
existence.
SPEAKER_00 (18:51):
I think I think that efficiency is the bane of my
existence.
Um and I I come up against thisa lot because there's one part
of me that is like so unhurriedand that is true to my nature,
and then there is another partof me that does live in
corporate America, and I do wedo live around people who are,
(19:15):
like I said, obsessed withself-optimization and with
efficiency.
So I'm thinking I'm stilldiscovering that.
Like, is that possible?
Because what I see even in my inmy work, and I'm so grateful
that I mainly do, you know,months of contract and then
freelance, and so I'm I'm ableto kind of pick and choose where
I'm putting my time, but I donotice in the corporate world
(19:39):
they love speed.
So it's like, can you get thisdone quick?
And I'm like, Well, you can'thave everything, so if you want
speed, you're not going to getquality.
And that does go against so muchof what I believe in because I
think creativity, what adisservice to creativity that
you're saying it can just be itcan just be created quickly.
This this is not I don't look atcreativity as a decorative
(20:00):
nature.
I look at it as something thatis thoughtful, and it comes from
the brains of human beings withyears of experience, and how
could you just make how couldyou just make something up in in
30 minutes?
It will fall flat later on.
I will tell you the foundationwill crumble.
Um, and I think a lot of it isletting people see that, letting
that unfold because I thinkpeople need to experience the
(20:24):
like true respect of creativity.
SPEAKER_01 (20:26):
Yeah.
Are you are you uh are youfreelance right now?
Are you at a at a shop or what?
SPEAKER_00 (20:31):
I am freelance.
I would say right now I'm in Iam in a really beautiful
situation that I am working at astartup slash nonprofit for
mental health.
That's called Project HealthyMinds.
SPEAKER_01 (20:41):
Oh my god, that's right down the middle for you.
SPEAKER_00 (20:44):
Isn't that amazing?
Is everything I've dreamed of.
It really is.
So I connected with them likethree years ago.
I think I got connected with thecreative director randomly, and
I was just like, I love this, Ilove this exist.
Um, and it didn't work outbecause they're in New York and
I'm in California, and it was atthe time they're like, hey, we
want people in New York.
Um and I'm like, I'm aCalifornia girl, so that's not
gonna happen.
(21:04):
And then we got connected threeyears later, and here we are.
So I that is something I loveabout them, is like they really
respect the strategy and thecraft and pairing the human mind
with creativity.
What does that look like?
But as you know, there's beenyou know, I've been in the
agency culture, and what thatis, it's like get it done as
quick as you possibly can.
SPEAKER_01 (21:25):
Go, go, go, go, go, go, go.
SPEAKER_00 (21:26):
Yeah, and I'm like, we have lost, we have lost the
plot.
SPEAKER_01 (21:29):
You know, I think I think that was a big part in me
quitting my job, starting tofreelance on my own.
Um, because I was like, dude,like I'm not I'm not doing a
good job.
SPEAKER_00 (21:40):
Exactly.
And it's like now I amquestioning all of my like gift
in my character because there isthis outside emergency that is
so false.
It is so made up.
I think the false sense ofurgency is in everything, not
just creativity.
Oh, yeah.
Is so insane that I am I amconstantly and actively
(22:03):
rejecting that.
I see myself get like swooped upin it often, and I'm like, whoa,
Courtney, check yourself.
Because it's like that does notthat is not true creativity.
That's not my gift ofcreativity.
That's not mine.
If there's another avenue wheresomeone is ex they they that
that's how they want to expressit, great.
But being a multidimensionalperson who can think and go into
(22:24):
strategy and make a greatfoundation, it's like such a
pun, it's such a punch in thegut to dismiss all of that.
SPEAKER_01 (22:30):
Well, let me ask you this do you get more out of
doing the thing or sharing thething?
SPEAKER_00 (22:36):
Mmm.
Such a good question.
I think I get more, I think Iget more out of doing the thing.
And I say that reluctantlybecause I think sharing in on
things is in everything withcommunity people making it
outside of yourself is one ofthe most important things of
life.
But I'm really thinking about mycreative process.
(22:56):
And when I am doing the thing,like options are endless.
I think that the sense ofdiscovery when you are doing
creativity, I that is the onlytime that I lose track of hours.
That's the only thing, only timeI'm not overthinking about life.
That's not that's the only timeI'm not thinking about all of
the stupid bullshit out there.
Is that when I'm like pullinginspiration and I'm making
things and I'm in it, and Ithink sometimes this is so
(23:17):
pessimistic of me, but sometimeswhen you share, your hopes and
dreams are fucking crushed.
So that is like that's the sadpart is that you're seriously
putting so much of your heartout there, and sometimes the
sharing is actually what makesit difficult.
And honestly, by the time itgets to market, a lot of the
time it's actually not even itdoesn't look it doesn't feel or
look like my it's been beat up.
(23:39):
Exactly.
So there is this sense ofdetaching from it, but then
there's also this sense of like,how how could I?
How could I detach from it?
Because as an artist, I thinkthat is a big portion, is that
we are we are attached to it.
SPEAKER_01 (23:53):
Yeah, it's a piece of yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (23:54):
It's so exposing.
It really is.
SPEAKER_01 (23:57):
Oh, and you're you're uh you're a very hard on
your sleeve kind of person.
Is that a fair read?
Very sensitive feeling, all ofthose things.
SPEAKER_00 (24:05):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (24:07):
First in creativity and then socially, do you see
that as a weakness or as astrength?
SPEAKER_00 (24:14):
It's fascinating because I think I've always
viewed it as an immensestrength, but also it can be so
debilitating.
I think as an empath, when I'mabsorbing feedback, when I'm
absorbing people's emotions, allof that, then I'm taken away
from myself.
(24:34):
And what I need to create andwhat I need to be a
self-expressed person in theworld is to be close to myself.
So I think it is a huge learningcurve of saying I'm a I'm a very
big feeler, but I'm not gonnaget swept away by my feelings.
And to say that I've masteredthat, well, I'll never master
that, but to say I've actuallyeven confronted that part is not
(24:56):
true.
Like I that is a current questof mine, is that I want to, I
and what I do know is I want tocontinue to wear my heart on my
sleeve, and I want to bringthat, I will say I want to bring
that into corporate America, andthat might even be, I think
people hear that and it's likecute.
And it's like, to be honest, I Idon't think being gentle and
(25:18):
sensitive and tender is cute.
I think it is brave andcourageous and assertive and
life-giving and incrediblyimportant to the corporate
world.
SPEAKER_01 (25:26):
It's so human, so human.
SPEAKER_00 (25:30):
And I, and that's actually something that I have
started to only incorporate thisyear, is bringing my full self
to corporate America.
And it is so hard to do becauseespecially as women, I mean,
you're you're sending an emailand you're like, am I being too
friendly?
Am I coming off too passive?
Am I like I want to beassertive, I want to be taken
(25:51):
seriously?
And self-censoring like that isactually what becomes that's
when I show up as a robot.
And if I just go into it saying,like, okay, I'm here to be
myself, I probably I might sendyou like a heart in an email,
and I probably will send toomany smiley faces, like that is
who I am.
I am full of sensitivity and Iam full of emotion, and I think
that's actually what makes me avery, a very present designer.
SPEAKER_01 (26:16):
What's the mark that you want to leave?
SPEAKER_00 (26:18):
I really want to see oneness in the world, and I do
not say these things in a way ofI mean, I keep referring to this
thing as like cuteness because Ido think that there's this lens
on all of these whimsicalfeelings that's like, oh, like,
oh, that's so hopeful.
And it's like, but I really, Ireally believe that, and I
don't, and I don't think it'sfar-fetched that we can merge
(26:41):
humanity and corporate Americabecause I I think they've taken
on two different forms, and howhow bizarre is it that when we
are in this setting in corporateAmerica, we are one version of
ourselves, and then we go outinto our social setting and we
are a different version, andit's like, okay, we have to have
good discernments while beingself-aware.
I, you know, I'm not gonna comeup to a corporate meeting and
talk about my last hinge date,but I am going to talk about the
(27:06):
imperfect design process andjust like the messiness of it.
So the mark that I want to leaveis knowing the like healing can
happen and healing happens whenyou do that, and you can show up
fully in those spaces.
Because I will say that what youactually do in a social setting
or a religious organization orin your in your job setting, how
(27:29):
you show up starts to show up asyour full identity.
It does start to trickle intoother places.
So if I'm showing up to acorporate meeting saying, like,
I can't be too kind, I can't betoo tender, I can't make any
mistakes, it's like, okay, well,then you will start doing that
in your friendships, and thennow your arms are crossed to
everything vulnerable andexposing.
And that's a that's a veryrobotic life.
(27:51):
And what I want is a mess, Iwant a messy life, and I want
people to be messy.
SPEAKER_01 (27:55):
What do you what do you think would change if if
society started treatingcreativity as like this raw
human essential thing that it isinstead of you know, like what
we talked about with the classesearlier, like extra?
SPEAKER_00 (28:11):
I do speak in absolutes a lot, but when I say
that I think it would change theentire essence of humanity, I
really, really mean it.
I think that if we didn't putcreativity in a narrow box and
if we just labeled it asself-expression, if we let
people do that, especially youngmen, then we would have human
(28:35):
beings who are who feel free inthe world and who are getting
their needs met and who areattuned to themselves and who do
not have to go to outlets ofviolence or uh suppression of
their true self.
And then they would be able tosay, like, I am a messy open
person in the world and I'mtaking care of it, and I have
this outlet of creativity, andall my grief can go here and it
(28:57):
can go to all these otheravenues.
It doesn't have to go into theselittle boxes of things.
So I think merging those wouldmean that we we don't have to
be, we don't have to bepresented as one thing,
especially men, we don't have tobe presented as this because I
think even how it and I do seethis evolving a ton, which is so
beautiful, but like the role ofmasculinity is that artists and
(29:20):
creativity is whimsical and it'ssoft and it's tender, and that
men aren't allowed to be, youknow, expressed in that way.
And that is what a disservice tolike how robust humanity can be.
SPEAKER_01 (29:30):
And I know the idea of creativity as a means of
healing and liberation issomething that feels really
central to how you think aboutart and life.
Do you wanna you wanna dive intothat a little bit?
SPEAKER_00 (29:42):
I would love to.
SPEAKER_01 (29:43):
Give me it.
SPEAKER_00 (29:45):
Okay, great.
Just open up.
Yeah, I think that the I mean, Ithink that there's so so many
ways to healing and liberation.
And I think art is isn't one ofthem.
But what I do know about art isthat it isn't an elite group, it
(30:05):
is not exclusive, it is not onlyfor a certain type of person.
And I think that is where thatmight be an avenue that we've
gone down, which is sad that Ithink sometimes people rule
themselves out because they'relike, well, I'm I'm not that.
And I would like to say everyonecan't everyone can be that, and
(30:26):
we can actually all nurture eachother to be that in a way
because it doesn't have to beperfect, doesn't even have to be
good.
In fact, I want to make I wantto make shitty art.
And I can't even believe thatI'm saying that because I could
not have said that a year ago.
SPEAKER_01 (30:38):
Dude, I've made so much shitty art.
SPEAKER_00 (30:40):
Isn't it so liberating, isn't it?
But the I think the thought ofdoing it is like it it's so
hard.
Like things can't be perfect.
SPEAKER_01 (30:50):
Well, and I think I think once perfectionism becomes
the thing, like you've kind ofsucked the soul out of it.
SPEAKER_00 (30:56):
Holy.
It's like there's this beautifulpoem.
It's a a Celtic prayer about theapproach, just the approach to
things, life, maybe art.
I think people could probablyname it, whatever they want.
And the middle of it is that I,or the end of it is that I have
no cherished outcomes.
And I think about that oftenbecause for me as a person to
(31:18):
say I have no cherished outcomesto something is incredibly hard
beating a person withperfectionism, anxiety,
depression, all the things thatmake you human.
Yeah as an artist, I'm like,okay, that's incredibly freeing
to say I don't I can't have anoutcome.
But I think, of course, in ourculture says, like, let's what's
what is the outcome?
(31:38):
How can we how can we optimize?
Let's get to the strategy, let'sget to like the the building and
like all of this.
And it's like, whoa.
So I I'm hurt by the dismissalof art in community and wherever
the fuck the focus is.
I don't even know where thefocus is.
(31:59):
Is I the focus is on efficiencyand uh wealth and all of these
things that people have made usbelieve matter.
SPEAKER_01 (32:10):
I think just saying something matters, you know?
Use your voice however, howeverthat looks for you, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (32:17):
Well, and I think that's a beautiful way to say it
is just saying something.
Because a lot of times peopleare like, I have to say the
right thing.
It's like you actually don't.
I think that when you just saysomething, then it will
ultimately in the end, somehowsomehow turn into the right
thing.
SPEAKER_01 (32:32):
Um I do I do want to acknowledge something before we
go any further.
Um, and it is uh over over thelast year, I've seen small
glimpses that you went throughsomething difficult.
Um I never wanted to pry, butI've I've thought a lot about
(32:53):
how to hold space um for that ifyou want to talk about it.
SPEAKER_00 (32:59):
Thank you.
That means a lot.
SPEAKER_01 (33:00):
Do you want to talk about it?
SPEAKER_00 (33:02):
I would love to talk about it a little bit.
I think that it is a huge partof me forever now.
And I think that it has beenlike a huge part of my grief
slash creative journey.
SPEAKER_01 (33:17):
Well please, I'll let you I'll let you drive.
SPEAKER_00 (33:20):
Sure.
So I think that the I've alwaysI've always been a big feeler.
I've always been someone who isinterested about people and the
world and the whys and theobsessiveness of humanity and
why people do the things thatthey do.
(33:43):
And I think the last yearreally, really heightened that
for me.
And I'm also not I'm not astranger to big or negative
feelings.
I don't even want to saynegative, I want to, I just want
to say big feelings.
I don't think the feelings arebad, but I have never really
experienced like true griefuntil the past year has been one
of the most grieving years of myentire life, and I think I had I
(34:09):
had to think about the worlddifferently and had to think
about creatively differently.
And just for context, um,without going into the whole,
you know, backstory, policereport, court date, all of that.
I um was in a shooting.
I survived a shooting, which isso um insane to even say out
(34:36):
loud, but it's it's veryimportant for me to continue to
say out loud to people.
Um Yeah, I survived a shooting,and that is traumatic, and it
could have in every way beendeadly, and it wasn't.
And what I ha I had so muchgrief.
(34:59):
And the interesting thing is Ireally had to redefine grief
because I I think our perceptionof grief is like something or
someone died, and in a way, somuch of my life did die, and
parts of me did die.
Um, but I read this beautifulthing that said grief is the um
grave departure from the normalattitudes of life, and that has
truly been what the last yearhas been, is that my life was
(35:23):
turned upside down.
But what this did do was forceme to confront myself.
This I had so I was living inDenver um with my twin sister
when this happened, and I stayedthere to heal um with her and
one of my best friends for fourmonths, and I finally came back
(35:45):
to California, um, and my wholelife was different.
This is when I saw things in Imean, like I said before, all of
the cliche things are just likeso true that near-death
experiences really do make youit truly gives you new vision,
but it gave me really rawvision.
(36:05):
It gave me vision that was likeI truly could not be in spaces
that were not authentic to me.
I was very clear about what Ibelieved, I was very and all the
my beliefs have always been soimportant to me.
But I was so immersed inministry and organized religion,
and I found creative beautiful,gentle friends, and I've met
(36:26):
some of the most hospitablepeople in that.
And it is not a place where Ican self-express.
And after a near deathexperience, your body, in my
experience, like my body wouldnot even let me be in places
where I had to be small anymore,like where I could not voice my
(36:47):
opinion freely and where itwasn't received in a way of like
true advocacy.
That is so advocacy is soimportant to me.
So the shooting, in a way, was away for me to express my
advocacy even more.
Like it I thought it would makeme.
(37:07):
I mean, you would think it wouldmake me angry about the world,
and there's a time and place forthat, and I am parts of me are,
and I want to welcome thatbecause that's real.
But what it actually made me dois get unb unbelievably even
more like a traumatic surrenderto why the fuck is the world
(37:27):
this way?
Because a lot of it feltsenseless, but when you think
about it, it's actually notthere's so many things that lead
up to violence.
There's so many, like these werekids, these were teenagers, and
I have thought so much aboutwhat led to that, and what led
(37:48):
to that is lack of attuned care,lack of resources, um, lack,
lack of of family systems, lackof able to express um creativity
or self-expression or emotions,because gun violence actually is
self-expression, it's justself-expression in a in a
(38:09):
terrible, deadly way.
So I've thought so much aboutlike, okay, right now I have so
much grief that my life looks sodifferent and I had to do so
much physical and emotionalhealing.
My grief goes to creativity.
I'm I'm able to paint shittythings, like I'm able to write
constantly, I'm able to um makeart that talks about the
(38:32):
feelings of like what theloneliness that these kids must
have felt, and then the lonelyloneliness that I felt.
But I think about what whatoutlet do they have?
What outlet do other people haveif they do not have creativity?
And if other people might, theymight actually have healthy
outlets, and that's wonderful.
Mine happens to be creativity,but when people don't have that,
(38:53):
this actually is a this is aresult of not having those.
So that I think the the likeportal of creativity that I had
for all of my grief to go wastruly life-saving, and I don't I
really don't put that lightly.
So I think creativity is not itcan be playful and whimsical.
I think it can be so manythings, but for me, it is a deep
(39:17):
well of something that made meuncover things, be curious, and
think about humanity, people,and myself in a way that said,
like, what is happening here?
And I've unfolded so muchbecause of that.
Unfolded so much of myself, I'veunfolded so much of um
organizations, I've unfolded somuch of resources, people,
(39:42):
systems of power, communities,marginalized communities,
systemic racism, like all that.
I never thought that creativitywould be in all of those things,
but it is it is truly deeplyimmersed in all of those things.
SPEAKER_01 (39:56):
Courtney, how are you how are you processing
living in a culture where thisjust keeps fucking happening?
SPEAKER_00 (40:03):
It is it is truly maddening, and it was actually
maddening to me even before ithappened to me.
And then having it happen, Iwant to say that I was shocked,
but I also want to say, and thisis I I'm not downplaying the
seriousness of it because it isso serious to me that I want
(40:25):
society to realize that it isn'tas shocking that it happened
because there are so manysystems at play that helped that
happen.
There, and that's why when wesee defunded systems, we see
defunded resources, we see toxicmasculinity, we see like all of
these oppressive thingshappening.
Sometimes people are like, maybeit's not that big of a deal.
(40:47):
I am I am telling you all thoselittle micro things lead to a
lead to a macro event ofviolence.
And I held violence on thestreet for one night.
The same thing happened againthe night to I those are that
that is happening constantly.
Not I just experienced it onenight.
(41:07):
These people are in violentsituations every night, these
people are in communities wherethey're neglected, other people
are in in communities wherethey're neglected, so it's like
where what what are we doing forfor liberation and healing?
Because what we're doing is notworking, and and the idea of so
many conversations after thishappened, or what is their
(41:28):
punishment going to be?
People were very concerned withtheir punishment, and it was a
lot of older white people whothought that we um thought we
would be on the same page, and Iactually don't believe that the
obsessive idea with likepunitive punishment is is
(41:52):
restorative.
I believe that there'srehabilitation, there's
nurturing, there's creativity,there's expression, all of those
things are actually how you geta flourishing society, not by
oppressing people even more, notby stifling them even more, not
by putting them in um terriblesystems that suppress them in a
(42:18):
way that says you can't now youcan't self-express.
What would they be like if theycould self-express?
SPEAKER_01 (42:24):
Courtney, your outlook on this whole thing is
very I don't know the words.
I don't know the words, but it'sit's very um encouraging, maybe
uh and and I don't know, it kindof makes me kind of makes me
feel hopeful.
That is all I want.
Um so let's let's take a breathfor a second.
(42:45):
Yeah, come down for a second.
Let's do it.
Um and I I I don't think wewould be able to I don't think
this would be valid if if youand I sat down and did not talk
for a moment about our sharedlove for Dallas Green.
SPEAKER_00 (43:02):
Oh my gosh.
We have to.
We we owe it to him.
SPEAKER_01 (43:06):
Dude, I uh I I had the chance to see him a few
weeks ago at when we were young.
Um he was playing with Alexis onfire.
It's the first time I've everseen him outside of City in
Color.
And I was just it was stillgreat.
SPEAKER_00 (43:19):
What's his essence like?
Because I do feel like that is adifferent It's a different job.
That's a different expression ofhim.
SPEAKER_01 (43:26):
You know, it it it still it still just kind of felt
like him.
Oh, well, and that's he didn'tdress different, he didn't
present different, he didn'the's such an inspo.
SPEAKER_00 (43:35):
He is that man is himself, even in okay, he's
acoustic guitar, but then he'sgoing into, you know, like
Alexis on fire, he can still behimself.
That's like what a dream.
SPEAKER_01 (43:45):
Yeah, it's wild.
And like I I saw him probablywith with City and Color,
probably about a year or so ago.
Dude, I I had a full-onemotional experience.
SPEAKER_00 (43:57):
It's truly a spiritual thing.
I I am forever changed by him.
I really am, and I meet very fewpeople who know of him.
And but the thing I love abouthim, he doesn't care who knows
about him.
He cares about the people who doknow about him.
Like he that he's a humble man.
He's so pretty.
He's so pretty.
I need to know more about hispersonal life.
Does he have a wife?
Does he have a girlfriend?
(44:18):
Do you know?
Like, I've looked a coupletimes.
I'm like, what is your vibe?
I just want to know, I want totalk to him.
SPEAKER_01 (44:25):
God, I love it.
Um, you want to go tap andgreat.
SPEAKER_00 (44:29):
Okay, I love that.
SPEAKER_01 (44:30):
Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's an easy way
to get into this one, but whenyou're gone, what do you hope
people say about you?
SPEAKER_00 (44:36):
God, it's so beautiful.
And I even honestly before theincident, I've I've thought
about this a lot.
I truly I want I want people tosay exactly what you said.
Is that where my heart on mysleeve?
I want people to say that I wastender and thoughtful and
empathetic.
Almost to the point ofembarrassment.
(44:58):
Like I actually don't care howembarrassed how embarrassing it
is that I am a feeler and Idon't care if I'm crying in
public and I'll never apologizefor crying.
And I want to make other peoplefeel free to also not apologize
for crying.
SPEAKER_01 (45:13):
That's strength.
SPEAKER_00 (45:14):
It's so interesting because it felt not like
strength for so long, orsometimes I even go back and
forth being like, God, I'm suchan emo like I'm so emotional and
I'm so sensitive.
And it's like, now part of me,most of me is like, yeah, I've
got I took so much work to bethis sensitive, honestly.
And I think what how courageousit is to it is so brave to be a
(45:37):
feeler.
It's like you, and it actuallyyou will get rejected sometimes,
and you have to be okay withthat.
SPEAKER_01 (45:43):
I am I am almost 20 years into my career, and I
still struggle with like withthe rejection aspect of it.
Like I think I think my gutreaction is to get mad at first.
SPEAKER_00 (45:54):
You don't get art then, obviously.
SPEAKER_01 (45:56):
It's you not it's like yeah, it's like go home.
You just say thank you and moveon.
SPEAKER_00 (46:02):
For real.
SPEAKER_01 (46:03):
Oh man.
Finish the thought.
Creativity requires exposure.
SPEAKER_00 (46:09):
And I mean like being ripped open,
vulnerability.
SPEAKER_01 (46:13):
What would your last meal be?
SPEAKER_00 (46:15):
You know what?
This is really niche.
And I and someone reminded me ofthis the other day.
Some people are gonna think thisis disgusting, and because it
is.
Um, and this also might be veryMichigan.
I feel like people in Californiadon't eat this, but my last meal
would be a KFC famous bowl.
SPEAKER_04 (46:32):
Ever had it?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (46:34):
I'm telling you, like it was so that was one of
the first things I had in thehospital when I woke up, and I
was like, I want a famous bowl.
And my family was like, ofcourse, we eat whatever you
want.
And it still hits seriously thesame.
It is so good.
SPEAKER_01 (46:47):
Um, what's the what's the best or the worst
advice that you've everreceived?
SPEAKER_00 (46:52):
Ooh, that's really good.
I it sound it's so and it's whatI've been saying this whole
time, and it it sounds so trite.
And I used to be so againstcliches to the point where I'm
like, no, it has to be morepoetic.
But I truly do believe the bestadvice is to be yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (47:13):
That's so good.
SPEAKER_00 (47:14):
I really mean it, and I think I whenever people
would say that I'm like, mmm,not poetic enough, say something
better.
And it's like there's there'snothing better than that.
There is nothing better thantruly being yourself, and but
you have to figure out whatyourself is because a lot of
time we'll convince ourselvesthat our self is actually all
these self-imposed or all theseoutside imposed things, and
there's like so much noise, andthen you're like operating in
(47:35):
this weird puppetry that youthought was yourself, and it is
truly worth all the exposure,the vulnerability, the rejection
to be yourself.
You will be walking in the worldlike like you're walking on
water.
SPEAKER_01 (47:47):
You know what's interesting is I I don't think I
fully grasp who I was untilafter I quit my job, which I
think directly relates to likehow I get to express my
creativity.
So I think that just I thinkthat just supports what you've
been saying.
SPEAKER_00 (48:02):
I love when things play out in like we can actually
see like it in in practice.
SPEAKER_01 (48:08):
Um what's your what's your favorite
distraction?
SPEAKER_00 (48:11):
Oh man, my favorite distraction.
Well, okay, the my favoritedistraction if I if I want to
present in a way that I'm likeso artsy and put together is
like is painting, which has beena really fun new discovery
because I do so much digitallyon my computer that I've been
saying seriously for two yearsthat I want to do more things
(48:32):
like with like actually with myhands, and I only started doing
it this year.
SPEAKER_01 (48:36):
Have you have you considered exhibiting at all?
SPEAKER_00 (48:39):
That is such a beautiful thought because I have
only said that out loud once,and I only said it to my twin
sister because she is my safestspace, and I have not been
courageous enough to say it outloud to anyone else because then
they might hold me accountable,and then I would have to do it.
So you just kind of inspired meto maybe say it out loud to
other people because yeah, thenI would have to I would have to.
SPEAKER_01 (49:01):
Oh Courtney, I love that.
I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (49:03):
This is gonna be like a breakthrough moment.
So it's it's recorded, so now Ican't go back on it.
SPEAKER_01 (49:07):
Hell yes.
Yeah, it's documented foreverand ever and ever and ever and
ever.
Uh, what's a hill you die on?
SPEAKER_00 (49:13):
Men can be emotional, and that toxic
masculinity is hurting everyone,not just men.
And that actually beingemotional is masculine.
I mean, I'm seriously stillwaiting for my emotional
sensitive man, but I know he'sout there.
He's coming.
I'm truly in no rush.
I want authenticity, so that isno problem.
(49:36):
I I'm seeing so many heartfelt,sensitive, emotional abvocating
men, and I'm also seeing so manythat are following the orange
man, which is so scary.
SPEAKER_01 (49:48):
I do not envy dating in 2025.
SPEAKER_00 (49:50):
It is truly the most convoluted, layered, not fun
thing.
It's supposed to be fun.
It's supposed to be discovery,and a lot of it is like lack of
true connection, and that justcould never work for me.
SPEAKER_01 (50:06):
Uh, do you do you have any regrets?
SPEAKER_00 (50:08):
Wow, okay.
This is gonna make me go into aspiral of all the things that I
regret.
I think it would be I think it'dbe very inhumane for me to say
that I don't have any regrets.
This is making me think somethings.
And I'm also giving myselfpermission in my life to take
things back or like change mymind tomorrow or be wrong about
things.
So I think in my highest self, Iwould say like I don't have any
(50:30):
regrets because, of course, inthe other trite way, it led me
to X, Y, and Z.
That's that's truly what I wantto believe.
So I will say that with 50% ofmy chest, and then the other
50%, I will say, I do have somany regrets for any time that I
was not myself, or that I heldback a belief, or that I didn't
(50:50):
advocate for X, Y, and Z,because that is truly what
lights me up.
I I will go on this foreverabout self-expression, about
creativity and about communitiesand healing and all of that.
Anytime that I don't say that ina group of people who are maybe
saying the opposite, that's abig regret for me.
So I I want to continue beingthat person who maybe says
things in a group that like Iknow no one's really gonna like
(51:12):
and I really don't care.
SPEAKER_01 (51:13):
I love that.
Um, last question.
Are you okay?
SPEAKER_00 (51:20):
That is so sweet, and I am going to be okay.
SPEAKER_01 (51:25):
It's about it's about progress, right?
SPEAKER_00 (51:27):
It really is.
And I do think there issomething I understand the
obsession with everyone sayinglike I'm fine, I'm okay.
Because there is such a fear ofheart feelings, like loneliness,
all of that.
I actually totally get whypeople would reject hard
feelings because that means thatyou have to feel them.
But for me to say, yeah, I'mhappy, I'm totally okay, is a
(51:50):
lie, and I'm not a liar.
So I have full faith that at Ithat I will be okay, I think
right now I'm still in such aseason of like healing and
tenderness and all that.
That is a very interesting thingthat I noticed about I think
organized religion is that thereis this obsession to move
(52:11):
quickly past hard feelingsbecause they're gonna be taken
care of by this third party.
And the thing that actually feltmost ringing to me was to say,
like, I'm sad right now.
I'm sad, and there's actually Ican't put up a mask to say that
everything is beautiful and thatthere's like there's this under
underlying me in it.
SPEAKER_01 (52:31):
So I think who's the mask even for, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (52:36):
Truly, that is that is seriously the big question is
who is it for?
Is it protecting me?
Is it protecting them?
It's like it really is all it'sdoing is hiding me, and there's
nothing about me that I want tohide.
SPEAKER_01 (52:49):
So great.
Courtney, before we before wewrap it up, um, where can people
find you if you want that?
SPEAKER_00 (52:55):
Ooh, yes, please find me on the gram, um, my
first and last name, CourtneyLauer, and my website, um,
CourtneyLauer.me.
And I would love to chat andconnect about the human
experience and feelings and allthe things.
SPEAKER_01 (53:11):
Courtney, thank you for your vulnerability.
Thank you for figuring out afucking date to do this.
SPEAKER_00 (53:18):
Thank you for your patience.
Thank you for pursuing.
Thank you for all your greatquestions.
I so appreciate your mind.
I'm supposed to just exist.
SPEAKER_01 (53:25):
Thank you, thank you, and thank you for closing
out the season with us.
SPEAKER_00 (53:28):
Oh my gosh, I was the last.
SPEAKER_01 (53:30):
Well, I mean Greg, what do you mean?
SPEAKER_00 (53:33):
Yeah, you're the last of this has been put off
for so long.
Right.
Okay, well, I planned thisstrategically so that I can like
it.
SPEAKER_01 (53:39):
Congratulations.
I hope you're happy.
SPEAKER_00 (53:41):
I am.
SPEAKER_01 (53:41):
All right, let's get out of here.
SPEAKER_00 (53:43):
All right, see ya.
SPEAKER_01 (53:57):
It's created and hosted by me.
Graphic is done at NFL Club andco-hosts by target for Gilladis.
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