August 18, 2026 • 56 mins
Part of our REWIND summer series, we’re revisiting eight conversations that crawled into our brains and hearts, nested, and just live there now. This time, it’s "Khalid Ibrahim: In Love & Focus" from Season 2.
Khalid Ibrahim (photographer, Eat Pomegranate) opens up with Aaron McCall about connecting with his subjects, balancing his creativity with his life as an epidemiologist, and how his experiences growing up in both Pakistan and the United States have influenced his relationship with his camera.
Keep up with Khalid Ibrahim:
eatpomegranate.com
IG: @eatpomegranate
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This episode is supported by:
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Merchants & Makers
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Writer/Producer/Editor/Host:
Aaron McCall
aaronmccall.net
IG: @aaron_mccall
——
Co-Host/Sidekick/Photographer:
Joe Matteson
themattesons.co
IG: @joe_dustin
——
Music:
"Noises" by Mike Mains & The Branches
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Support the Podcast:
Buy Merch
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IG: @badideasocialclub
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:37):
You know, the first many years of my life I moved
here with my my whole familymoved here, but I was thirteen.
And um I spent that time beingan observer and now as a
photographer and also I'm anepidemiologist, both these
careers are you're like friggin'Batman.
SPEAKER_03 (00:59):
Getting tired of hearing all these noises in my
head.
I can't seem to make them goaway.
SPEAKER_02 (01:16):
Hey, welcome back to Bad Idea Social Club Rewind.
I'm Joe Madison.
And I'm Aaron McCall.
SPEAKER_01 (01:22):
Today we're gonna go back and revisit my conversation
with Khalid Ibrahim in Love andFocus from season two, episode
three.
Khalid is a fucking unicorn.
Yeah.
Dude's a oh my god.
Dude's a Chicago was really hardfor me right now.
SPEAKER_02 (01:41):
You got it.
SPEAKER_01 (01:42):
Oh my god.
Dude's a Chicago-basedphotographer, and as you'll see,
a storyteller in his own rightfor sure.
Yeah.
Um he shoots out of the moniker,eat pomegranate, and I've known
him pretty much since thebeginning of my career.
And dude, he was at the very topof my list when I first started
this podcast on my own.
Didn't work out for season one,but we got him in early and
(02:04):
locked in for season two.
But dude, I was I was in Chicagofor a conference.
So I just I just packed up myshit, packed up the gear, hopped
on the train because I was notabout to shit to bed on this
one.
I was not about to be in thesame city as Khalid and not have
this conversation.
Yeah.
Um, so we we set up in my hotelroom and and we just got right
(02:25):
after it.
Uh to be clear, uh No, you saidit's all right.
SPEAKER_02 (02:29):
It's okay.
He he's a lover, and so are you.
SPEAKER_01 (02:33):
I got a little suite.
There was a couch and stuff, andwe weren't just like probably
been fine if him and I are justlaying next to each other in the
bed.
SPEAKER_02 (02:41):
You remember when in high school when I stayed over
and we woke up and my head wasin your lap.
Sorry, that sounds fucked.
SPEAKER_01 (02:50):
I had pants on.
SPEAKER_02 (02:51):
Yeah, well, there you go.
SPEAKER_01 (02:52):
But I remember looking down, I remember looking
down and I was like, look howcute he is.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (02:58):
We're bonded since then.
That was the moment.
You referred to Clid as aunicorn, and I want to add to
that that uh he is specificallya joy unicorn.
He is someone that I have seenderive joy out of just about
every step of the process thatI've been witness to.
That might be really good brandcontrol on his behalf, but um,
(03:21):
it just when I first met him, hewas just starting photography.
And when he would talk about it,the joy in his eyes of just
talking about just doing it, itwas so obvious.
And that's still there.
If you are following him on anyuh social media platform, that
joy is so easy to see.
SPEAKER_01 (03:41):
I really, really love this conversation.
Like there's some stuff in thereabout Nigerian machine guns, uh
falling in love with hissubjects, uh, and balancing two
very, very different careers.
SPEAKER_02 (03:55):
Yeah, right.
So before we dive in, don'tforget to follow wherever you're
listening.
Leave a five-star review.
Don't forget to tell yourfriends.
SPEAKER_01 (04:02):
Also, this thing runs off of uh merch sales,
listener support, and review.
So please help us out.
We'll love you for it.
Um all right, here's uh here'sKhalid, Ibrien, uh in love and
focus, season two, episodethree.
SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
Have you do you wear a salvage denim?
SPEAKER_01 (04:21):
Uh I haven't.
SPEAKER_00 (04:22):
Well, can you save it for me?
SPEAKER_01 (04:24):
Yeah.
Okay, great.
Yeah, that is that is yeah,please.
SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
That's gonna be our I wanna show you denim.
SPEAKER_01 (04:29):
Let's uh let's get comfortable, let's get uh get
things in order.
SPEAKER_00 (04:33):
How far you want me?
Like here.
SPEAKER_01 (04:34):
This stand is less than reliable.
SPEAKER_00 (04:36):
So okay, I will not move it.
Yeah, um, dude, you have beensuch a huge impact in my
creative life.
And I have all theseconversations, like I talk about
you on other podcasts.
You are my story in a lot ofpodcasts, and uh, or any
conversation that I'm havingwith other creatives.
I remember very early on I did aportfolio review with you, and
(04:58):
you looked at my work and youwere like, okay, cool.
I don't have any comments.
And then I think you hired me,and I was like, what is
happening?
But then there's one morsel thatyou gave me that was gold, and
you were like, hey, thispersonal work that you put in
there is so amazing.
And I want more of this to bepersonal work than the sexy big
client work.
(05:19):
And I want you to show me moreof that because as a designer,
as an art director, I want tohave a bunch of tools in my bag
of tools.
And if I know you can do thisbased on your personal work,
then I can bring you in forprojects.
And I totally redid my wholeportfolio after that.
Um, and just watching how youwork, uh it's such a privilege.
(05:42):
That's another one of thosethings uh no one can learn from
you unless they work with you.
And thank for thank you forbringing me into those sacred
spaces, you know.
Yeah, um, dude, total off topic.
It is so good to see you.
Thank you so much.
Like your energy is sobeautiful, and thanks a lot.
SPEAKER_01 (05:58):
Oh, thank you, dude.
Yeah, you know, like I said, youwere top of my list.
Thank you.
At the very beginning of thisthing.
SPEAKER_00 (06:04):
What a compliment.
SPEAKER_01 (06:05):
Did you know that you were the first person to
submit content like a like awritten piece and be on the
podcast?
SPEAKER_00 (06:13):
Wow.
Yeah, really still properly.
I I dig deep for that content.
Like it was from my heart.
SPEAKER_01 (06:20):
When I reached out to a few other people to kind of
say, Yeah, hey, can you can youwrite something?
Are you interested in this?
Yeah.
They would read yours andthey're like, uh-uh.
And it's like, no, no, no, youdon't have to write, but Clint
is writing.
Like, I want I want your voice,I want your perspective.
SPEAKER_00 (06:35):
And they're like, yeah, but he's oh, that's a nice
compliment.
SPEAKER_01 (06:40):
But you fucked me a little bit.
SPEAKER_00 (06:41):
No, no, no.
Here's the thing.
I did this project where I itstarted with uh it was like a
journal project.
This is a long time ago, maybelike a decade ago.
And I was really careful aboutthe first person that did it.
It was a collaborative project.
Because I think that um yeah, Ithink it's important to push
people a little bit, you know?
Yeah.
And I think, yeah, I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't I'm not saying that Idid that to any of your
(07:03):
audience.
I'm just saying that it's Ithink I think it's gonna be.
SPEAKER_01 (07:05):
I want you to talk more about that project.
SPEAKER_00 (07:07):
Yes, would love to.
Would love to.
It's like developed into a lotmore since then.
So go.
Um okay, okay, amazing, amazing,amazing.
Um man, I I don't know if inthat article about slow
communication I talk about umthis journal project from a long
time ago because I would getjournals all the time as gifts
because I love writing.
(07:28):
I like write letters to myfamily and friends, and I write
letters to um strangers, youknow.
I have this project onlinethat's called uh Love Letters to
Strangers, and people submit umpeople who need love, and I just
write them the gushiest loveletter.
So all the gifts that I get arelike stationary and pens and
stuff.
So people would give me allthese journals, and one time I
(07:50):
took this journal and I wrote itas if it was my own journal for
seven days, and then I passed iton to someone and I wrote some
rules in the front.
I was like, you know, treat thislike it's yours, paint in it,
write poetry in it, do whateveryou want in this, make this
yours, you know.
And the first person I gave itto like that day he went, it was
(08:12):
he he was going through adivorce.
Like he got divorced that day.
Oh god.
No one really knew this.
And he wrote about that.
And he gushed up like about itfrom his heart.
And the next person that got itum wrote poetry that she writes.
Another person who got it umdrew charts of his whole life,
like when he's happy, when he'ssad, when he's doing whatever.
(08:32):
And this project, the on thefirst page I'd written, I talked
about how this is gonna bescanned and put online.
But when I got this back a yearand a half later, I could not
put it online.
Yeah.
I was like, this is private,this is gonna blow up.
And it did blow up that this waslike there's news articles.
I think there's like an NPRthing about this.
Like it, all these people uhheard about this.
(08:53):
And I was like, I when someoneGoogles this, I don't want them
to read someone's private stuff.
So I had this event at agallery, and of course, there's
a photo component in it, becausethat's what I do.
Yeah.
And um people who wrote in itwere invited to this event, and
they could invite anyone theywanted.
There was no Facebook invite,there was no email invite, it
(09:16):
was only word of mouth, and weIt stayed true to the nature of
the project.
SPEAKER_01 (09:20):
Absolutely.
Yeah, that's awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (09:21):
And so let's say you're num person number three
in the journal.
Um, you had no idea what numberfour or five, six, seven wrote.
So you could be in one room andanyone could go up and read from
their entry.
And there were, oh man, this wasa special event.
There were laughs and peoplecried.
And the curator of this gallerywas like, This is one of the
best events I've ever had here.
(09:43):
It was such a special night.
SPEAKER_01 (09:44):
Man, what does it feel like to just be like, I did
that?
SPEAKER_00 (09:47):
Oh man, it feels crazy, but I think that all the
projects that I do, all theoutside of like all my personal
projects are about connectionand communication in some way.
And at the so, anyways, goingback to the idea of the first
person that writes in that, andif they are vulnerable, that
vulnerability is infectious andthe intimacy is infectious.
(10:10):
And yeah, I've learned that inmany things.
And I've learned that in thesocial diad of me as a
photographer and my subject inthe studio.
Like if I'm vulnerable, they'revulnerable.
Yeah, you know, and it createsthis uh safety.
So, anyways, um, I could talkabout this a lot more, but uh
yeah, and you know, we'll getwe'll get to photography and art
and all that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:30):
Uh, but um I guess I've always considered you
something of an artist when itcomes to human connection, like
what you were just saying.
Thank you.
When you're photographingsomebody taking a portrait, what
does that process look like tokind of get them to let their
guard down and just let you in?
SPEAKER_00 (10:46):
Man, I am so Oh my god, I'm gonna cry.
I'm so fortunate for how muchlove I've had in my life.
Like, it's unbelievable.
My parents, my family, mysiblings, my friends, the
creative community, um, justeveryone.
Like, I'm really, really lucky.
And this one time I was in thestudio and I was like, How does
(11:10):
someone who loves my subject seethem?
Like, how does someone who isjust head over heels about this
person see them?
And what if for the next five toten minutes, which is a long
time, I just fall in love withthem, and what happens with my
camera?
(11:30):
And I remember the first time Idid this.
I fell in love with this personand I was like, let me
photograph how the light fallson their shoulder blade.
Let me, let me, let mephotograph how I see them if I'm
that person, right?
Their family member, theirbrother, their husband, their
wife, you know, whoever.
And I turned my I looked at mycamera, I was blown away, and I
(11:54):
turned the back of my camera tothe subject, and we're like,
that's not me.
No one's ever photographed melike this.
And it changed how I shot.
I was doing an interviewrecently, and I talked about and
like during the interview, Irealized that I photographed
thousands of people.
SPEAKER_01 (12:09):
That's crazy.
SPEAKER_00 (12:10):
And it's like deep love for three to ten minutes
with that person, and I thinkthat's that's like the biggest
thing.
I mean, technically everyone hasto be a good photographer.
I mean, we're in this reallycompetitive field, right?
But I think that is what hasbeen just something that's been
different in my studio space.
SPEAKER_01 (12:30):
So well, what's it like when you can't quite break
through?
Do you ever experience that?
SPEAKER_00 (12:35):
Wow, yes, all the time.
You know, the camera meanssomething else, something
different to everyone.
And um, I'm so fortunate becausemy I followed my camera around
the world, Nigeria, Malawi, uh,Pakistan, all over the Middle
East, um, all over, and I'mreally fortunate.
(12:57):
And I've learned that around theworld, and even within the US
and within differentneighborhoods of this city, the
camera has different meanings,right?
So, how the person is feeling,what they think about a photo is
different for everyone.
So I have to come up with anindividual way to connect with a
person, you know?
There's no blanket.
Yeah, there's there's noblanket.
(13:17):
Can can we swear on this?
Yeah, you can say whatever youwant.
I actually never swear.
So this is gonna be a good idea.
Yeah, yeah.
I'm I'm so staccato.
I wish I was flowy withswearing.
I I I hear other people swear sobeautifully.
And uh and um and um there was aI was in this little bar in
Hamtramck, Michigan, and I wasdoing this extensive
two-year-long projects where Iwas photographing people who
(13:40):
compete in beard competitions,B-E-A-R-D competitions, right?
So I have this whole catalog ofwork about like beard
competitions.
And this guy just walked in offof the street, and I could tell
he had shells, you know, he hadshells.
And I was like, man, I'm yeah, Ican get a well-lit photo, it's
gonna be composed well, it'sgonna be shot well.
(14:01):
This is a nice camera, these arenice lights.
But how can I make someone feelsomething from this?
He needs to be let that shelldown.
And I, the normal blanket thingsweren't working.
That connection wasn't working.
He had this toughness, and Ikind of like squared up with him
and I was like, fuck you.
And he immediately gotdefensive.
He got he got he got ready togo.
(14:22):
He got ready to fight.
And then he realized this is ajoke and that this is not the
setting for that.
And he that release he had, itwas, I think, two seconds.
And that was the photo.
And you know, I cannot do thatif I'm photographing like a
Supreme Court justice or SCEO oryou walk up to Supreme Court
Justice.
Fuck you.
(14:43):
That's just my system, you know.
But you know, everyone isdifferent, you know, and um,
yeah, I mean, so many storieslike this, so many stories like
this.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:52):
You're you're so good at pulling that emotion,
that vulnerability, thatauthenticity, all the all all
those things that you need.
You you're so good at pullingthat out of your subjects.
What are you doing that thatkind of personal connection
you're making is passed on in away that the images you create
kind of make their ownconnection with the audience?
SPEAKER_00 (15:16):
You know, I want every photo that I take to have
a story before and after it.
And I want the audience toextrapolate a story after what
happened and before whathappened, where that person was
coming from and where thatperson is going.
A note I have a lot of I have alot of technical notes in my
brain, right?
But alongside of that, there's alot of emotional notes when I'm
(15:39):
in on a set or taking a pictureof anyone, or even if I don't
have a camera and I'm imagininga composition, like the way
light is falling on your faceright now in this window, it's
so beautiful.
But I need the photo to tell astory before and after.
And the way you do that,especially in portraiture, and
portraiture is like where I likewhere I live, really.
(15:59):
Right.
Um, is um if it's notperformative.
And we're all performing, right?
Like as soon as you see a michere, there's an audience, as
soon as I bring a camera out,performance starts.
But over years and years ofdoing that same practice, you
learn how to get rid of thatrecorder, get rid of that
(16:21):
camera.
You know, Henry Cartier-Bressonis like a phenomenal um street
photographer.
And sometimes he's right inpeople's faces, and and um, it
looks like the camera or himdoesn't exist.
It's so magical.
And uh, of course, I'm not astreet photographer, but in
portraiture, I want to createthat.
SPEAKER_01 (16:42):
I think you're I think you're doing a great job
with really pulling out whopeople are, or maybe like
showing them themselves in a newlight that that's a that's a
gift.
You know that?
SPEAKER_00 (16:54):
Thank you, thank you.
I thank you, man.
Thank you for saying that.
You know, before we sat downhere talking about how amazing
of a job you're doing with this,and I am so blown away by you.
And you were talking about hownone of these um episodes have
been the same, and none of thestories have been the same.
And I learned that everyone hasa story to tell, and I get to be
(17:19):
witness to that story justbecause I have a camera in my
hand.
Yeah.
And special.
It's such a it's such aprivilege.
It's such a privilege.
Because um, because yeah, noteveryone is gonna tell their
story, you know, and if youcreate a certain space that
comes out and all of a suddenyou're walking around a big city
like this and there's millionsof stories, you know, it's so
(17:41):
thrilling.
SPEAKER_01 (17:42):
The level of connection and the level of
imagery that you produce can'tbe easy, both uh technically,
but also like emotionally.
It's it's gotta be taxing.
And you're always walking aroundwith this big beautiful smile on
your face.
How much of that is real?
SPEAKER_00 (18:01):
Oh, a hundred percent.
And if it's not real, I hideaway.
Yeah, or I go on a bike ride andor I go for a swim uh and
recharge.
But when I am smiling, I want itto be from my heart.
Because one reason I just don'twant it to be authentic, but
second, people who are close tome can tell, you know?
(18:23):
Yeah.
And um, if it's not there, it'snot there.
SPEAKER_01 (18:26):
Dude, I fucking love that if you that if that smile
isn't on your face, you've got aplan to put it back.
SPEAKER_00 (18:32):
Yeah, you gotta recharge.
But you are you you got it, man.
Like this, there's a lot ofemotional giving in photography
in this style.
And yeah, after a day of uhafter a shoot day, I crash
emotionally, and I have to dosome of those energy recharging
things.
(18:52):
Um, you know, I am Muslim, andMuslims have a daily prayer and
meditative practice, and it'speppered throughout the day, you
know, sunrise, high noon, lateafternoon, sunset, late at
night.
And these five times in the dayare like my hyper recharges.
And I no matter where I am, likeI can figure out where I can do
(19:14):
that.
And uh that has been that hasbeen an one amazing tool for
this.
SPEAKER_01 (19:19):
So that's a I think that's a great segue to kind of
go back and I want to learnabout your origin story.
SPEAKER_00 (19:25):
Yeah, yeah, please.
SPEAKER_01 (19:26):
Yeah, so tell me that story.
Start in Pakistan.
SPEAKER_00 (19:29):
Wow.
Wow.
Um man, it I always wanted to beon NPR.
And uh this one time I got to beon NPR, and the story that I
told was me standing in linewith my parents to enter the
(19:50):
United States.
That's where the story starts.
And it goes six months back towhen I'm in Pakistan and the
hype and the idea of what the USis like, and it goes to six
months later to what it's likebeing here, and it's both
amazing.
But when I'm standing in thatline with my family, and I
cannot believe my parents didthis in their 30s, um we could
(20:10):
have been rejected.
Okay, and they could have beenlike, go home.
And immigration to the US islike a crazy thing.
So I um I grew up in Pakistan inthe foothills of the Himalayas.
So you look at one side of thehorizon and it's the biggest
mountains in the world.
(20:31):
Amazing.
And you look at the other sideof the horizon, it's these
unbelievable Punjabiagricultural plains.
And the comfort of the mountainsof the horizon is like what I
what I really miss here in theMidwest.
But but yeah, I'm a mountainperson.
Um and culturally verydifferent.
(20:53):
And as soon as I came here, Iconsumed this culture, this
language, um, the slang, howpeople interact, like um pretty
obsessively.
And every minute that I wasalone, I was practicing my
accent, and I was reallystudying how people talk, how
people interact, because it'stotally different.
(21:16):
Some of the things that you maydo here are totally unacceptable
in Pakistan, vice versa.
So I spent, you know, the firstmany years of my life.
I moved here with my my my wholefamily moved here, but I was 13
when we moved.
And um I spent that time beingan observer, and now as a
(21:38):
photographer and also I'm anepidemiologist, both these
careers are you're like freakingBatman.
One of my dear friends from NewYork, his name is Hamdan.
He was like, dude, you are theonly commercial photographer I
know that's also anepidemiologist.
(21:58):
Why are these things so siloed?
And I was like, These things arenot siloed.
And um I'm using clinicalresearch problem solving skills
in my creative practice, and I'musing creative problem solving
skills in my clinical researchpractice.
And yeah, I have had these twofull-time careers now for over
(22:23):
eight years, and um, they'revery different, you know.
My day could have the mostenriching creative conversation,
and it could delve into prettyheavy healthcare related topics.
And it just kind of goes backand forth every day for years,
it's been it's been happening.
And for a while I kind of keptthese things separate um in
(22:47):
terms of like talking about it,because when someone hears that
you are a photographer um thathas its other job, they're like,
Oh, you're this is not a realthing, like it's your hobby.
And or if uh in the academicrealm, if someone's like, Oh,
you're also creative, they'relike, Oh, what so are you just
(23:08):
doing this job till you don'thave to?
And I'm like, No, I want to doboth of these things because
both of these things are really,really, really special to me.
And I could have taken either ofthose paths many, many years
ago.
And I had to make a decision atone point about which path I'm
gonna take.
And I was like, I both of thesethings really enrich me, and I
(23:32):
am really, really lucky to beworking at a high level and in
both of these fields.
So I want to find a balance andhow I can make both of these
things happen.
So I bring up my friend Hamdanbecause he was like, I need you
to be more intentionally bringboth of these things together.
And a few years ago, I wrote agrant to the Library of Congress
(23:56):
um with a couple of facultymembers to do a photo project
around a healthcare problemlooking at uh geriatric care in
remote, remote parts ofMichigan.
So I traveled all over Michiganphotographing and doing audio
interviews of people who provideelder care in the most difficult
(24:20):
environments.
And now that whole body of work,which is shot in medium format
film, lives in the Library ofCongress.
And I couldn't have done thatjust as a photographer, and I
couldn't have done that just asan epidemiologist.
These two really differentthings live in harmony.
Like we're having thisconversation right now.
Like earlier this morning, I washaving this detailed, several
(24:43):
hour-long discussion around umstatistical analysis for a
paper.
Um, all these things are umpractices and observation and
and pattern finding.
So yeah, uh yeah, I could say somuch more, but um, but yeah, um
the I I straddle these two verydifferent cultures, and they are
(25:04):
both a big part of me.
And um yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:08):
So at what point in that story did you start
exploring and developing yourcreativity?
SPEAKER_00 (25:15):
Wow.
When I was 16, there was thisfilm camera on my dad's shelf,
and I was like, Dad, you're notusing this.
Can I use it?
And it was strictly a practicein like physics and engineering
for me.
I was like, How does tech thisthing technically work?
SPEAKER_01 (25:33):
That's the scientist in you.
100%.
SPEAKER_00 (25:35):
Yeah.
I was like, let me reverseengineer um how certain aspects
of a camera work.
And I was like, I would see aphoto and I'd be like, how can I
recreate that just from thetechnical aspect?
And um then I learned that ifyou're fast with the technical
aspect, your mind and your heartare able to compose photos that
(25:55):
are unreal.
Like you can feel a feeling,like I can see a photo right
now, and I can prettyimmediately know how to take it,
you know?
So I just hyper focus on thetechnical side for a while.
And man, can I tell you a crazystory?
I wish you would.
And I hope this person hears thestory because I don't think they
know how big of an impact theyhad.
I was shooting just film and Iwould go on photo walks with
(26:18):
people.
And uh this guy is like, hey,can you meet me at IHOP
tomorrow?
So I met him at this IHOP.
I was late, and he was sittingon a table, and there were
several thousands worth oflenses and digital cameras on
the table.
And I sat down, I'm like, heyman, how are you?
And he's like, All this stuff isyours.
And I was like, I was like,dude, I have$325 in my bank
(26:42):
account.
I can't afford this.
And can I give you that?
And he's like, Yes, sure, if youreally want to.
So, but I shoot digital um withthis digital camera, and you
shoot film, and you developedyour one or two roles, and you
have way more good photos thanmy hundreds of photos on my
(27:03):
camera, and you need to levelup.
And he pushed all these lensesand cameras to me, and like it
was such a jump in my world.
Like, this there was thisexternal person, this outwardly
outward validation, really.
And my whole career has been mywhole creative career has been
(27:25):
people taking huge risks withme.
Like, I cannot believe it.
And um, yeah.
So what do you think, what doyou think he saw in you to to
put those resources in your lap?
Oh man, I don't know.
I am so humbled by people allthe time.
unknown (27:43):
I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (27:44):
Why is this such an emotional podcast?
Um, I don't know, man.
I don't know.
This has happened, this kind ofthing has happened over and
over, and I don't know.
And you know, now some of thosepeople who've taken who've like
given me huge jobs, you know, ortrusted me with huge projects.
Um I am friends with them now,and I can go back and I can be
like, you know, dude, what wereyou thinking?
(28:06):
You know, like I didn't have aportfolio or whatever, you know.
Like my first commercial job wasuh a multi-city campaign.
And yes, I had like a portfolioof my personal work, but like
this guy took a huge risk.
SPEAKER_01 (28:20):
So that's not a small job to start on.
SPEAKER_00 (28:22):
Yeah, yeah.
So like when I when I'm talkingto younger creatives and they're
like, okay, so like what do Ido?
And I'm like, man, I cannot tellyou my story because some people
have like been really amazing tome.
SPEAKER_01 (28:34):
So how long have you been shooting officially as or
under Eat Pomegranate?
SPEAKER_00 (28:41):
I think this is year 11.
unknown (28:43):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (28:44):
And I just realized that, and I should have done
something for year 10 last year.
But uh maybe I'll do somethingfor year 11.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:52):
Um, I think maybe some people will hear that name
and be like, oh, that's silly.
He's being silly.
Yeah.
Uh, but I've heard the story.
Yeah.
It's not silly, it's fuckingbeautiful.
SPEAKER_00 (29:01):
Thank you.
Can you share that?
Yeah, love to.
Love to.
So eat pomegranate photography.
You know what a funny name.
Most people can't spellpomegranate and then have to
spell it for them.
Okay.
I'm I'm gonna interject.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:13):
Every time I type it, whenever we have anything
going on, yeah, I type it inGoogle first.
SPEAKER_03 (29:18):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (29:23):
Yes, I did.
SPEAKER_00 (29:24):
Um, yeah, eat pomegranate.
Uh, the origin story is that I'ma young kid.
I've uh four siblings, twobrothers, two sisters.
And you know, every brown momwill cut up fruit for you and
just hand it to you.
I was just home uh last week,and my mom just cut up mangoes
and she's like, here.
And it's just like a brown momthing.
Maybe it's an all kinds of momthing.
(29:45):
Yeah.
And um, when I was a kid, whenit was winter and it was
pomegranate season, she wouldcut up pomegranate and uh serve
us like these seeds, pomegranateseeds.
And fast forward, I'm in collegeand I have my own little
apartment, and I go to a grocerystore and I get my own
pomegranate and I cut it and itsplatters all over the kitchen
(30:07):
backsplash and my shirt.
And I had this like, I was like,my mom has done this hundreds of
times for me, you know?
And of course, I've enjoyedthose pomegranates, but I cannot
believe the work she did, thelove she put into each of those
bowls.
And the way I think aboutphotography is that I kind of
shroud my audience from theprocess of how I get there,
(30:27):
shroud my audience from how Imake a photo.
And maybe someday they'll learnhow all the work I did to make
it.
SPEAKER_01 (30:33):
I do the same thing with design.
It's it's it's personal.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (30:37):
But if that final bowl of pomegranate or that
final photo doesn't feel good,it doesn't matter how I cut up
the pomegranate, it doesn'tmatter how I made it.
But sometimes those people arelike, wow, I just learned the
lengths you went through to giveme this photo.
Thank you so much.
It just has like a secondmeaning, you know.
(30:57):
So, and I'm pouring my heartinto each of these things, the
smallest project to the biggestproject.
So the studio is called EatPomegranate after this
pomegranate experience, youknow.
SPEAKER_01 (31:10):
You travel to Pakistan somewhat frequently,
right?
SPEAKER_00 (31:13):
Yeah, once a year.
Um, I missed last year, I think.
And but but yeah.
Man, Pakistan has such a deepconnection.
This one time I was in CapeTown, South Africa, and I was in
this really cool hotel, and mybusiness phone, my um personal
(31:36):
phone, and my office phone allrang, and I was like, this has
to be like the FBI or something.
And it was the next closestthing, which was a producer from
Al Jazeera, which is like aninternational news show.
And this producer was like, Hey,we've heard some talk of yours,
and we want to bring you in fora half-hour show as a panelist
(31:58):
to talk about the immigrantexperience on our show.
And I was like, This is crazy.
Yes, I'm flying back to the USin two days, and I would love to
be part of this.
So um, the reason I bring thisup is because um in the middle
of the show, I tell this storyabout how I'm in Pakistan.
I'm wearing Pakistani clothes, Ispeak perfect Urdu, and my
(32:21):
driver's sitting next to me,he's also wearing Pakistani
clothes, speaking perfect Urdu,and we sit down without saying
anything, and the shopkeepercomes to me and he's like,
points to me, and he's like,You're not from here.
And he points to my driver andhe's like, You are from here.
And I kept it together, butinternally I broke down because
I'm like, no, no, no, man, thisis my country.
I'm from here.
(32:43):
So I'm talking about the story,and the host is talking about
how, you know, when you're animmigrant, you're an ambassador.
I'm like right now, I'm anambassador to Pakistan.
When I'm in Pakistan, I'm anambassador to the US.
And when you migrate like this,you're from neither place after
a while.
You know, you're from bothplaces and you're from neither
(33:05):
place.
And if you go after one side orthe other, um, I don't know,
like you're you leave half ofyou one way or the other.
So you have to keep both ofthose things close to your
heart.
And I keep both of those thingsclose to my heart.
Like I've acclimated to the US,and this is my country, but also
when I go to Pakistan, that'salso my country, that's my
(33:26):
language, that's my culture,that's my people, that's my
food.
And um, yes, I keep thatconnection and I keep doing
little projects there.
And um, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:36):
If this is something that makes me sound like an
idiot, I'll I'll cut it, but itwon't.
I have, if we're beingcompletely honest, I have a
little bit of jealousy in mebecause as just like a white guy
who frankly I don't know what Iam.
Sure.
I have no idea.
And you know, I see you uh withthese strong roots and pride and
(34:01):
and and love, and it's like Idon't I don't know what that is,
but I'm a white guy.
I've got other stuff that youdon't have.
SPEAKER_00 (34:08):
Yeah.
Man, it's great to be white.
Um sorry, cut that if that makesme sound.
Um but no, no, I I mean I hearyou.
I mean, I think that we all wearso many hats, you know?
And um, and yeah, like I Iconnect to all of those hats.
(34:29):
I am a bicyclist and I'm ascientist, and I am Pakistani,
and I'm Muslim, and I'mAmerican, and I, you know, all
that all that stuff.
Yeah.
It just becomes part of you.
I think that none of thosesingular things are any of us,
and all of those things are allof us, you know?
SPEAKER_01 (34:45):
God, that's amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (34:46):
Yeah.
And that goes for you and me andeveryone, and that's where all
the stories come in, you know?
That's what that's the storieswe're talking about.
SPEAKER_01 (34:53):
You want to take a hard left turn back into
photography?
Yes, please.
Um, a lot of your stuff has thislike timeless quality, but it's
also very fresh.
And I think that's obviouslyvery intentional and
painstaking.
Yeah.
Um, how do you maintain thatquality uh without letting it
get stale?
SPEAKER_00 (35:11):
Yeah, thanks for asking.
Once in a while, I'll take onlike a creative coaching um gig.
And if someone is like, hey,help me, I'm stuck in something,
and then I'll take them on aslike a client.
And this one time, this personwho's an amazing photographer,
um, was like, Hey, can you helpme?
(35:33):
And I was like, Yes, this iswhat we're gonna do.
Every day you're gonna send me aphoto that you take, and uh,
we're gonna do this for a month,and the day that you um miss,
you owe me a hundred bucks.
And I was she's like, Great.
And um, so she takes a pictureand it's great, and she takes a
(35:54):
second picture and it's great.
And the third day she takes apicture, she also puts it on
Instagram, and I'm like, oh no,no, you can this is not for the
world.
Yeah, this is for you and me.
This is for us.
I want to see what what yourheart wants to photograph.
So she's like, Whoa, okay, soI'm not thinking about who's
(36:15):
gonna like it and who's not.
I'm like, no, this is just forus, right?
So day four, five, six, seven,and she can't do it.
She stops on day seven, she'slike, here's a hundred bucks.
She meets me for dinner andshe's like, here's a hundred
bucks.
And I'm like, let's talk aboutwhat happened.
And she's like, when I'mshooting from my myself, it is
(36:39):
so hard.
So, you know, in response toyour question, I'm so bad at
marketing myself, and I'm reallylucky that people hire me.
I don't know how people find me.
SPEAKER_01 (36:52):
I was gonna say you're also full of shit.
SPEAKER_00 (36:54):
Okay, thank you.
Thank you.
Well, I'm happy something isworking, but there's so much
more I could be doing.
I there's so many projects thatI should be sharing that I
don't, right?
And because most of the thing,because a fraction, a 1%, less
than 1% of the work that I makemakes it out into the world.
The rest of it stays prettyclose to my heart.
And um, I think that's whatkeeps it fresh.
(37:16):
I put things out in the worldthat make me feel good that day.
And when you do that, it can bea total flop.
People could hate it or peoplecould love it, but you're not
doing it for that.
You're like, okay, what feltgood today, you know?
SPEAKER_02 (37:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (37:32):
Um yeah, I think that's the only I yeah, I don't
know the answer to yourquestion, but I think that's the
best answer that I can come upwith for how I practice.
SPEAKER_01 (37:40):
I've had this idea just like kind of rolling around
in my head a lot recently, andI'm curious to get your
perspective.
Um, for me, art is just as muchabout self-discovery as it is
self-expression.
So, what are you learning aboutyourself through your process,
through your photographs?
SPEAKER_00 (38:01):
Wow.
Dude, first of all, it's reallynice to be understood.
You called it, like I am pouringmy heart into all of this work.
Um, and that's a double-edgedsword because when I look at my
stuff, sometimes I'm transportedto the exact feeling of a time,
you know?
So um, yes, absolutely.
(38:23):
Not only am I discovering what Ilove or who I love, um, or don't
love, or don't like, or what'sbothering me and what's not
bothering me, um, each of thesethings are like fingerprints on
every photo that I'm taking.
So sometimes I can't go to acertain section of my um
(38:45):
catalog, my like uh organizedlike photo catalog.
Um, and sometimes I can go backto it and just be totally
transported.
Um also I'm so fortunate that Ihave the ability to take
pictures so I can like makethese emotional fingerprints in
my photos.
But yeah, it is a discovery, itis a recording of feelings, it
(39:10):
is um it is all of those things.
SPEAKER_01 (39:12):
Do you ever go back specifically to relive a moment?
SPEAKER_00 (39:17):
Absolutely.
This one time um I took apicture of my grandfather and my
grandmother.
And my grandfather is they bothpassed away, and they were so
special to me.
But my grandfather was ageneral, and he would come out
(39:38):
of his bedroom in a three-piecesuit, and he would go to the
dining table, and he would readthe newspaper, and there'd be a
perfect tea served to him, andhe was just such a man that I've
always looked up to.
And my grandmother was likeAudrey Hepburn, she had this
grace that was magical, right?
(40:00):
And um, they were both in thepublic eye a lot.
And I had this beautiful accessto them as their grandson with
my camera, you know, since apretty young age.
And one day I was like, hey, canI take a picture of you on this
balcony?
And my grandmother andgrandfather were really into
plants, so they had these hugetrees behind them.
(40:21):
And I asked my grandfather tolook at his wife, my
grandmother, like the first timehe saw her.
And this softness came on to himthat none of us had ever seen.
And he was soft and loving andcaring, but this was a magical
softness.
And um, that photo now hangs onour uh gallery wall at my
(40:45):
parents' house.
And uh yeah, man, I can go backto that photo and feel that
softness from my grandfather inlike a moment.
SPEAKER_01 (40:56):
It's amazing because the way you're treating that
photo is the same way that yourgrandfather was treating your
grandmother.
Yes.
And that is so beautiful.
That is so amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (41:06):
I mean, it's rich in these photos, and um, yeah,
yeah.
It's uh and you know, likepeople have brought me into
really, really vulnerable placesum to record this kind of thing,
you know, and it's such aprivilege, and I and I take it
very seriously, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (41:23):
Yeah.
Do you ever have and you canjust say yes or no if you don't
want to get into anything, butdo you ever have those
photographs that you just avoidentirely?
SPEAKER_00 (41:33):
Yeah, absolutely, because it's uh emotional
quotient, you gotta manage it,you know?
Yeah.
So absolutely, there's certaintimes that are put in a vault
for a little while, and maybeI'll open them up later.
And certain ones I'm going backto all the time.
And when I look at my um catalogof photos, I know where those
parts are.
(41:54):
Right.
And uh yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (41:56):
Do you ever get lost in that space or is just or is
your compass kind of alwaysperfectly calibrated?
SPEAKER_00 (42:02):
Oh no, nothing is perfect, you know, no one's
perfect.
Man, I just got a suit recently,and it's a suit of my dreams,
you know.
And I went to this suit.
I can't believe you didn't wearit today.
I should have worn a suit.
Um, I and uh I mean you go infor several fittings for this
kind of thing, and um then theyperfect it.
(42:25):
And on the very last fitting,he's like, I just want you to
know that nothing is perfect.
And he's like, you know, the TajMahal is supposed to be this
perfect architectural marvel,but Akbar, the the guy who
commissioned it, got you know,it's a it's a mausoleum for his
wife's grave, and he got them tomake the grave just a little
(42:46):
crooked to make it intentionallynot perfect, because only like
God's supposed to be perfect,right?
So I yeah, man, definitely notperfect, definitely all over the
place, but that's where themagic lives, you know?
SPEAKER_01 (42:59):
I think what makes us unique as uh as artists, as
creatives is our perspective andour experiences.
And I think we have to reallyprotect that.
Do you have a vetting process tokind of keep your your client
roster clean and to keep thepoison out?
SPEAKER_00 (43:19):
Oh my god, I'm gonna give you all my secrets.
Yes, heavily.
I love people, I love strangerson the street, especially in
Chicago, when you're drivingaround, um, for a lot of people,
their car is their only sacredspace.
And you see a lot of peoplecrying or laughing in their car
(43:40):
because that's like the onlytime they're alone sometimes.
And I love I've like thoughtabout people I've seen crying,
and I've thought about peopleI've seen laughing.
Um so yeah, baseline, I lovepeople, right?
But my work is so heart forwardand heart first that if I my
heart is not in a good place, Ican't really make work.
(44:03):
So yeah, there's a huge processof who's my friend and who I'm
talking to, and absolutely withclients.
Um, because yeah, you cannotmess with that good heart space.
But you know, another thing Iwant to say is that I am
unbelievably fortunate in termsof clients.
(44:24):
Like I don't have bad clientstories, you know.
Yeah, really.
What about red flags?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, I think that, you know, aswe grow older, and this is not
just about creativity, I thinkit's just about just as people.
Our filters become more refined.
And that's, I think, thedefinition of like wisdom, you
know.
And I think as we get wiser, wehave more refined filters for
(44:48):
who gets in, who get whodoesn't.
And you know, with me, I thinklike everyone gets in, but very
few people are in that innercircle who I'm doing
collaborative work with, becausecollaborative work is so sacred.
And you know, we've known eachother professionally for a long
time and personally for a longtime.
I have been so lucky to docollaborative work with some of
(45:08):
the best, you know, some of thebest.
So um yeah, really sacred space.
SPEAKER_01 (45:13):
You ever do that dumbass thing where you compare
yourself to other photographers?
SPEAKER_00 (45:17):
Oh my gosh, it's hard not to do.
Why do we do that?
Man, I have found a solution toit.
Okay.
Hit me.
I sometimes, and you know, we'reall like bidding for work for
commercial projects.
Sometimes someone who is muchbetter than you gets a job.
And that feels good to me.
(45:39):
Because I'm like, uh, yep, theydeserve this.
Yeah.
And I'm gonna level up.
And yeah, like I journal a lot,and I just like two weeks ago
journaled about this exact thinghappening, and it wasn't a bad
feeling, it was a great feeling.
Um, but it doesn't feel good ifsomeone else gets a job or does
(46:01):
something and I could have doneit a lot better.
SPEAKER_01 (46:03):
And you know that's your job.
SPEAKER_00 (46:05):
Yes, you know, and and that doesn't feel as good.
But if someone is better, Icongratulate them, I lift them
up, and I then go home and Ihustle and I work.
SPEAKER_01 (46:16):
You know, I I've kind of noticed this like
generational thing when it comesto excuse me, when it comes to
creativity and business, where Ithink that maybe uh and maybe
I'm gonna sound like an asshole,maybe I'm gonna turn some people
off, but I think an oldergeneration it's it's it's all
competition.
I'm gonna do whatever I have todo to to get this work and to
(46:37):
grow by business and and allthat stuff.
But I think you know, uh peoplearound our age, we're in our mid
to late 30s, uh maybe uh even alittle older, um into your
forties.
Um it's an ambulance orsomething outside.
Chicago Sounds.
Yeah.
Um I think we celebrate eachother a lot more.
(46:59):
And I think I think weappreciate when somebody um that
you know is deserving fuckingcrushes it.
SPEAKER_00 (47:07):
Yes, yes.
There's more than enough work togo around, you know?
Yeah, and we're strongertogether.
And you know, we're sitting inChicago, this beautiful hotel,
this beautiful view of one of myfavorite neighborhoods.
And um, this city, my experienceof this city is that um people
lift each other.
(47:28):
People have lifted me up here,and it's been so humbling.
Um, and I really think it'sbeautiful how Gen Z is pushing
those paradigms.
You know, they're like, Why do Ihave to go up this ladder?
Yeah, why can't I?
And there's like there's prosand cons to that, but like I
love that they're doing that alittle.
SPEAKER_01 (47:45):
You know, I look at Gen Z and I and I feel optimism,
but I think even more than likemillennials, Gen Z is stepping
up and saying, like, hey, cutthe shit.
SPEAKER_03 (47:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (47:54):
So if if if there's any Gen Zers listening, um, I'm
on your side, just get off myfucking skinny jeans.
SPEAKER_00 (48:03):
Then you look good.
I like the jeans you wear.
We're gonna do some geneshopping next time you come to
Chicago.
SPEAKER_01 (48:08):
I cannot wait for that.
SPEAKER_00 (48:09):
You're great.
SPEAKER_01 (48:10):
Um you wanna go topic hopping?
SPEAKER_00 (48:13):
Yes, let's do it.
Let's hop.
SPEAKER_01 (48:15):
When you're gone, what do you hope people say
about you?
SPEAKER_00 (48:18):
Oh wow.
Thank you for that question.
I hope people say that rememberthat one time it felt really
good.
SPEAKER_01 (48:30):
Finish the thought.
Creativity requiresvulnerability.
What would your last meal be?
You gotta tell me more.
SPEAKER_00 (48:43):
Oh my gosh.
So I've been a vegetarian,pescatarian, I guess, for 20
some years, and I think the onlyway I've been able to do it is
because South Asian food, SouthAsian vegetables are amazing.
Save the day.
Yes.
And um, when Americans hearabout okra, they think about
like gumbo, like slimy gumbo.
But the way we do it in SouthAsia, it's it's like a dryer fry
(49:05):
with a tomato base.
And um, my siblings always jokeand they put stuff like this on
Instagram.
It's like almost like memeablethat uh when I'm coming home, my
mom like cuts up a bunch ofokra.
So yeah, um, she is anunbelievable cook.
And um, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (49:23):
You know what I think of when I think of okra is
cracker barrel, and that'sthanks to my grandma Judy.
SPEAKER_00 (49:29):
Yes, uh fried okra, right?
Yeah, yes, cool.
Yeah, you know, you know what'sup.
SPEAKER_01 (49:33):
Yeah.
Um what's the best advice you'veever received?
SPEAKER_00 (49:37):
Um, I was at some I was 17 or something, maybe 18,
and I was at this art fair in umAnn Arbor, Michigan, and uh this
guy had these beautiful photosof Cuba.
I was like, hey, I'm a youngphotographer, and I want you
what advice do you have for me?
And it is beautiful photos.
There was no people, and he waslike, You have to photograph
(49:59):
people, it's the hardest thingto do.
And I that role of film, Iswitched to photographing
people, and I never stopped.
SPEAKER_01 (50:09):
Yeah, you never went back, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (50:11):
And I um at that time I would shoot one role of
film per week and then I wouldgo develop it, and um I did I've
done that forever, or sincethen.
So um that was and I you know, Ididn't know at the time that
this guy is gonna change mylife, and I wish I could find
(50:32):
him, and I wish I rememberedsome detail about him that could
like connect back to the uh whathis name is or whatever, but I
yeah, that guy.
SPEAKER_01 (50:42):
God, I love that.
Man, what's the worst?
SPEAKER_00 (50:45):
Worst advice.
Oh my gosh, where is yourbusiness gonna be in five years?
SPEAKER_01 (50:51):
Dude, I hate that.
SPEAKER_00 (50:52):
And uh was like um right here, just doing better
work, and he hated that.
And I was like, Oh, okay.
Like, well I think we're told mydifferent things.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (51:05):
Knowing what you know now, yeah, uh, what advice
would you give to yourself juststarting out?
SPEAKER_00 (51:11):
Oh my gosh.
You know, I approach whomeveryou want to collaborate.
I think it took me a long timeto do that, and I'm really
fortunate that the first time Idid it, and almost every time
that I've done it, people havebeen interested.
And I've learned the most fromcollaboration because when
(51:32):
you're working in that intimatecreative space with someone, you
learn things that you can't talkabout.
You learn things that can't betaught.
SPEAKER_01 (51:39):
What's the worst idea that you've ever followed
through with?
SPEAKER_00 (51:42):
Man, this is such a cop-out.
Let me cop out real quick.
But you know, I've done a bunchof dumb things and they've
taught me great.
Yeah, they've been great, youknow?
This one time I was in Nigeria,and I saw these four people
sitting on this stoop, and thesun was setting on the other
(52:03):
side of them.
So they were uh they werecreating this beautiful
silhouette.
And I took my camera out, whichis like a 10-pound thing, and I
pointed it at them to take thispicture of the silhouette, and
they saw me and they reached onthe other side of the stoop and
they grabbed their machine gunsand they started running after
me.
And I started running at as fastas I've ever run.
(52:26):
Holy shit.
Yeah.
And I ran into my hotel, whichwas also protected by machine
gun guards, and I got in, and Iwas like, what just happened?
And what happened was that theywere selling gray market
gasoline, which is very illegal,and um, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (52:40):
And they thought you were trying to fuck them up.
SPEAKER_00 (52:42):
Yes, and um, but two days later, I was in this remote
village in Nigeria outside ofAbuja, and I took my camera out,
and the whole village came tome, and I took some of my
favorite photos of it.
God, that's amazing.
Yeah.
So, so you know, like um Ididn't teach me anything.
I still took my camera out twodays later.
unknown (53:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (53:06):
What are you watching or listening to right
now?
SPEAKER_00 (53:09):
I just got back, just got back hanging out with
my cousins in the UK, and thenwe did this hiking trip across
Ireland, and um they are soknowledgeable about music, and
they listen to grime, and I justwant anyone that's listening to
this to explore grime, and it'sa good time.
(53:32):
So I'm listening to a lot ofBritish grime.
SPEAKER_01 (53:34):
It sounds terrible.
SPEAKER_00 (53:36):
I mean, it's an acquired taste, but it does good
things to your body.
What's your favorite thing?
This fountain pen my grandmothergave me, and she would write
these letters that are famousbecause they were would be as if
you were sitting across fromher.
They were the mostconversational yet the most
elegant letters.
And she gave me this fountainpen that is amazing.
(54:00):
I still use it.
SPEAKER_01 (54:02):
Do you have any regrets?
SPEAKER_00 (54:04):
You know, so many regrets.
Um so many regrets, but I thinkthere's a beauty in accepting
them, you know?
But it's a butterfly effect.
You know, what happens if I goback and change them?
Do I not experience otherthings?
SPEAKER_01 (54:17):
Yeah, are you not the person you are today?
SPEAKER_00 (54:19):
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (54:21):
All right, last question I have for you.
Are you okay?
SPEAKER_00 (54:25):
Oh, thank you.
I'm good.
I wouldn't have been able to dothis if I wasn't good.
So thanks for waiting for me.
SPEAKER_01 (54:32):
Well, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (54:34):
Thank you.
Yes, my heart feels good.
Good.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (54:38):
Good.
Uh before we go, um where canpeople find you?
SPEAKER_00 (54:42):
Oh my gosh, they can find me on eatpomegranate.com.
They can find me on Instagram,and uh they can find me biking
around Chicago.
SPEAKER_01 (54:55):
Dude, thank you so much for doing this.
So appreciative.
Like I said, you were top of mylist uh before I recorded a
single episode.
And uh thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (55:04):
Thank you so much.
This is such an honor.
I uh I know people say that, butman, this means the world to me.
So thank you.
And you mean a lot to me.
Uh get your nose out of my eyes.
SPEAKER_03 (55:14):
Yeah, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
Let's get out of here.
SPEAKER_00 (55:16):
Thank you, thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (55:21):
I can't make them go away.
SPEAKER_01 (55:26):
Bad Idea Social Club is an independent podcast made
possible by merch sales,reviews, and listener support.
And it's created and hosted byme, graphic designer Ed McCall,
and co-hosted by photographerJoe Madison.
Music is noises by Mike Nates inthe branches.
You know, the first many years of my life I moved
here with my my whole familymoved here, but I was thirteen.
And um I spent that time beingan observer and now as a
photographer and also I'm anepidemiologist, both these
careers are you're like friggin'Batman.
SPEAKER_03 (00:59):
Getting tired of hearing all these noises in my
head.
I can't seem to make them goaway.
SPEAKER_02 (01:16):
Hey, welcome back to Bad Idea Social Club Rewind.
I'm Joe Madison.
And I'm Aaron McCall.
SPEAKER_01 (01:22):
Today we're gonna go back and revisit my conversation
with Khalid Ibrahim in Love andFocus from season two, episode
three.
Khalid is a fucking unicorn.
Yeah.
Dude's a oh my god.
Dude's a Chicago was really hardfor me right now.
SPEAKER_02 (01:41):
You got it.
SPEAKER_01 (01:42):
Oh my god.
Dude's a Chicago-basedphotographer, and as you'll see,
a storyteller in his own rightfor sure.
Yeah.
Um he shoots out of the moniker,eat pomegranate, and I've known
him pretty much since thebeginning of my career.
And dude, he was at the very topof my list when I first started
this podcast on my own.
Didn't work out for season one,but we got him in early and
(02:04):
locked in for season two.
But dude, I was I was in Chicagofor a conference.
So I just I just packed up myshit, packed up the gear, hopped
on the train because I was notabout to shit to bed on this
one.
I was not about to be in thesame city as Khalid and not have
this conversation.
Yeah.
Um, so we we set up in my hotelroom and and we just got right
(02:25):
after it.
Uh to be clear, uh No, you saidit's all right.
SPEAKER_02 (02:29):
It's okay.
He he's a lover, and so are you.
SPEAKER_01 (02:33):
I got a little suite.
There was a couch and stuff, andwe weren't just like probably
been fine if him and I are justlaying next to each other in the
bed.
SPEAKER_02 (02:41):
You remember when in high school when I stayed over
and we woke up and my head wasin your lap.
Sorry, that sounds fucked.
SPEAKER_01 (02:50):
I had pants on.
SPEAKER_02 (02:51):
Yeah, well, there you go.
SPEAKER_01 (02:52):
But I remember looking down, I remember looking
down and I was like, look howcute he is.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (02:58):
We're bonded since then.
That was the moment.
You referred to Clid as aunicorn, and I want to add to
that that uh he is specificallya joy unicorn.
He is someone that I have seenderive joy out of just about
every step of the process thatI've been witness to.
That might be really good brandcontrol on his behalf, but um,
(03:21):
it just when I first met him, hewas just starting photography.
And when he would talk about it,the joy in his eyes of just
talking about just doing it, itwas so obvious.
And that's still there.
If you are following him on anyuh social media platform, that
joy is so easy to see.
SPEAKER_01 (03:41):
I really, really love this conversation.
Like there's some stuff in thereabout Nigerian machine guns, uh
falling in love with hissubjects, uh, and balancing two
very, very different careers.
SPEAKER_02 (03:55):
Yeah, right.
So before we dive in, don'tforget to follow wherever you're
listening.
Leave a five-star review.
Don't forget to tell yourfriends.
SPEAKER_01 (04:02):
Also, this thing runs off of uh merch sales,
listener support, and review.
So please help us out.
We'll love you for it.
Um all right, here's uh here'sKhalid, Ibrien, uh in love and
focus, season two, episodethree.
SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
Have you do you wear a salvage denim?
SPEAKER_01 (04:21):
Uh I haven't.
SPEAKER_00 (04:22):
Well, can you save it for me?
SPEAKER_01 (04:24):
Yeah.
Okay, great.
Yeah, that is that is yeah,please.
SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
That's gonna be our I wanna show you denim.
SPEAKER_01 (04:29):
Let's uh let's get comfortable, let's get uh get
things in order.
SPEAKER_00 (04:33):
How far you want me?
Like here.
SPEAKER_01 (04:34):
This stand is less than reliable.
SPEAKER_00 (04:36):
So okay, I will not move it.
Yeah, um, dude, you have beensuch a huge impact in my
creative life.
And I have all theseconversations, like I talk about
you on other podcasts.
You are my story in a lot ofpodcasts, and uh, or any
conversation that I'm havingwith other creatives.
I remember very early on I did aportfolio review with you, and
(04:58):
you looked at my work and youwere like, okay, cool.
I don't have any comments.
And then I think you hired me,and I was like, what is
happening?
But then there's one morsel thatyou gave me that was gold, and
you were like, hey, thispersonal work that you put in
there is so amazing.
And I want more of this to bepersonal work than the sexy big
client work.
(05:19):
And I want you to show me moreof that because as a designer,
as an art director, I want tohave a bunch of tools in my bag
of tools.
And if I know you can do thisbased on your personal work,
then I can bring you in forprojects.
And I totally redid my wholeportfolio after that.
Um, and just watching how youwork, uh it's such a privilege.
(05:42):
That's another one of thosethings uh no one can learn from
you unless they work with you.
And thank for thank you forbringing me into those sacred
spaces, you know.
Yeah, um, dude, total off topic.
It is so good to see you.
Thank you so much.
Like your energy is sobeautiful, and thanks a lot.
SPEAKER_01 (05:58):
Oh, thank you, dude.
Yeah, you know, like I said, youwere top of my list.
Thank you.
At the very beginning of thisthing.
SPEAKER_00 (06:04):
What a compliment.
SPEAKER_01 (06:05):
Did you know that you were the first person to
submit content like a like awritten piece and be on the
podcast?
SPEAKER_00 (06:13):
Wow.
Yeah, really still properly.
I I dig deep for that content.
Like it was from my heart.
SPEAKER_01 (06:20):
When I reached out to a few other people to kind of
say, Yeah, hey, can you can youwrite something?
Are you interested in this?
Yeah.
They would read yours andthey're like, uh-uh.
And it's like, no, no, no, youdon't have to write, but Clint
is writing.
Like, I want I want your voice,I want your perspective.
SPEAKER_00 (06:35):
And they're like, yeah, but he's oh, that's a nice
compliment.
SPEAKER_01 (06:40):
But you fucked me a little bit.
SPEAKER_00 (06:41):
No, no, no.
Here's the thing.
I did this project where I itstarted with uh it was like a
journal project.
This is a long time ago, maybelike a decade ago.
And I was really careful aboutthe first person that did it.
It was a collaborative project.
Because I think that um yeah, Ithink it's important to push
people a little bit, you know?
Yeah.
And I think, yeah, I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't I'm not saying that Idid that to any of your
(07:03):
audience.
I'm just saying that it's Ithink I think it's gonna be.
SPEAKER_01 (07:05):
I want you to talk more about that project.
SPEAKER_00 (07:07):
Yes, would love to.
Would love to.
It's like developed into a lotmore since then.
So go.
Um okay, okay, amazing, amazing,amazing.
Um man, I I don't know if inthat article about slow
communication I talk about umthis journal project from a long
time ago because I would getjournals all the time as gifts
because I love writing.
(07:28):
I like write letters to myfamily and friends, and I write
letters to um strangers, youknow.
I have this project onlinethat's called uh Love Letters to
Strangers, and people submit umpeople who need love, and I just
write them the gushiest loveletter.
So all the gifts that I get arelike stationary and pens and
stuff.
So people would give me allthese journals, and one time I
(07:50):
took this journal and I wrote itas if it was my own journal for
seven days, and then I passed iton to someone and I wrote some
rules in the front.
I was like, you know, treat thislike it's yours, paint in it,
write poetry in it, do whateveryou want in this, make this
yours, you know.
And the first person I gave itto like that day he went, it was
(08:12):
he he was going through adivorce.
Like he got divorced that day.
Oh god.
No one really knew this.
And he wrote about that.
And he gushed up like about itfrom his heart.
And the next person that got itum wrote poetry that she writes.
Another person who got it umdrew charts of his whole life,
like when he's happy, when he'ssad, when he's doing whatever.
(08:32):
And this project, the on thefirst page I'd written, I talked
about how this is gonna bescanned and put online.
But when I got this back a yearand a half later, I could not
put it online.
Yeah.
I was like, this is private,this is gonna blow up.
And it did blow up that this waslike there's news articles.
I think there's like an NPRthing about this.
Like it, all these people uhheard about this.
(08:53):
And I was like, I when someoneGoogles this, I don't want them
to read someone's private stuff.
So I had this event at agallery, and of course, there's
a photo component in it, becausethat's what I do.
Yeah.
And um people who wrote in itwere invited to this event, and
they could invite anyone theywanted.
There was no Facebook invite,there was no email invite, it
(09:16):
was only word of mouth, and weIt stayed true to the nature of
the project.
SPEAKER_01 (09:20):
Absolutely.
Yeah, that's awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (09:21):
And so let's say you're num person number three
in the journal.
Um, you had no idea what numberfour or five, six, seven wrote.
So you could be in one room andanyone could go up and read from
their entry.
And there were, oh man, this wasa special event.
There were laughs and peoplecried.
And the curator of this gallerywas like, This is one of the
best events I've ever had here.
(09:43):
It was such a special night.
SPEAKER_01 (09:44):
Man, what does it feel like to just be like, I did
that?
SPEAKER_00 (09:47):
Oh man, it feels crazy, but I think that all the
projects that I do, all theoutside of like all my personal
projects are about connectionand communication in some way.
And at the so, anyways, goingback to the idea of the first
person that writes in that, andif they are vulnerable, that
vulnerability is infectious andthe intimacy is infectious.
(10:10):
And yeah, I've learned that inmany things.
And I've learned that in thesocial diad of me as a
photographer and my subject inthe studio.
Like if I'm vulnerable, they'revulnerable.
Yeah, you know, and it createsthis uh safety.
So, anyways, um, I could talkabout this a lot more, but uh
yeah, and you know, we'll getwe'll get to photography and art
and all that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:30):
Uh, but um I guess I've always considered you
something of an artist when itcomes to human connection, like
what you were just saying.
Thank you.
When you're photographingsomebody taking a portrait, what
does that process look like tokind of get them to let their
guard down and just let you in?
SPEAKER_00 (10:46):
Man, I am so Oh my god, I'm gonna cry.
I'm so fortunate for how muchlove I've had in my life.
Like, it's unbelievable.
My parents, my family, mysiblings, my friends, the
creative community, um, justeveryone.
Like, I'm really, really lucky.
And this one time I was in thestudio and I was like, How does
(11:10):
someone who loves my subject seethem?
Like, how does someone who isjust head over heels about this
person see them?
And what if for the next five toten minutes, which is a long
time, I just fall in love withthem, and what happens with my
camera?
(11:30):
And I remember the first time Idid this.
I fell in love with this personand I was like, let me
photograph how the light fallson their shoulder blade.
Let me, let me, let mephotograph how I see them if I'm
that person, right?
Their family member, theirbrother, their husband, their
wife, you know, whoever.
And I turned my I looked at mycamera, I was blown away, and I
(11:54):
turned the back of my camera tothe subject, and we're like,
that's not me.
No one's ever photographed melike this.
And it changed how I shot.
I was doing an interviewrecently, and I talked about and
like during the interview, Irealized that I photographed
thousands of people.
SPEAKER_01 (12:09):
That's crazy.
SPEAKER_00 (12:10):
And it's like deep love for three to ten minutes
with that person, and I thinkthat's that's like the biggest
thing.
I mean, technically everyone hasto be a good photographer.
I mean, we're in this reallycompetitive field, right?
But I think that is what hasbeen just something that's been
different in my studio space.
SPEAKER_01 (12:30):
So well, what's it like when you can't quite break
through?
Do you ever experience that?
SPEAKER_00 (12:35):
Wow, yes, all the time.
You know, the camera meanssomething else, something
different to everyone.
And um, I'm so fortunate becausemy I followed my camera around
the world, Nigeria, Malawi, uh,Pakistan, all over the Middle
East, um, all over, and I'mreally fortunate.
(12:57):
And I've learned that around theworld, and even within the US
and within differentneighborhoods of this city, the
camera has different meanings,right?
So, how the person is feeling,what they think about a photo is
different for everyone.
So I have to come up with anindividual way to connect with a
person, you know?
There's no blanket.
Yeah, there's there's noblanket.
(13:17):
Can can we swear on this?
Yeah, you can say whatever youwant.
I actually never swear.
So this is gonna be a good idea.
Yeah, yeah.
I'm I'm so staccato.
I wish I was flowy withswearing.
I I I hear other people swear sobeautifully.
And uh and um and um there was aI was in this little bar in
Hamtramck, Michigan, and I wasdoing this extensive
two-year-long projects where Iwas photographing people who
(13:40):
compete in beard competitions,B-E-A-R-D competitions, right?
So I have this whole catalog ofwork about like beard
competitions.
And this guy just walked in offof the street, and I could tell
he had shells, you know, he hadshells.
And I was like, man, I'm yeah, Ican get a well-lit photo, it's
gonna be composed well, it'sgonna be shot well.
(14:01):
This is a nice camera, these arenice lights.
But how can I make someone feelsomething from this?
He needs to be let that shelldown.
And I, the normal blanket thingsweren't working.
That connection wasn't working.
He had this toughness, and Ikind of like squared up with him
and I was like, fuck you.
And he immediately gotdefensive.
He got he got he got ready togo.
(14:22):
He got ready to fight.
And then he realized this is ajoke and that this is not the
setting for that.
And he that release he had, itwas, I think, two seconds.
And that was the photo.
And you know, I cannot do thatif I'm photographing like a
Supreme Court justice or SCEO oryou walk up to Supreme Court
Justice.
Fuck you.
(14:43):
That's just my system, you know.
But you know, everyone isdifferent, you know, and um,
yeah, I mean, so many storieslike this, so many stories like
this.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:52):
You're you're so good at pulling that emotion,
that vulnerability, thatauthenticity, all the all all
those things that you need.
You you're so good at pullingthat out of your subjects.
What are you doing that thatkind of personal connection
you're making is passed on in away that the images you create
kind of make their ownconnection with the audience?
SPEAKER_00 (15:16):
You know, I want every photo that I take to have
a story before and after it.
And I want the audience toextrapolate a story after what
happened and before whathappened, where that person was
coming from and where thatperson is going.
A note I have a lot of I have alot of technical notes in my
brain, right?
But alongside of that, there's alot of emotional notes when I'm
(15:39):
in on a set or taking a pictureof anyone, or even if I don't
have a camera and I'm imagininga composition, like the way
light is falling on your faceright now in this window, it's
so beautiful.
But I need the photo to tell astory before and after.
And the way you do that,especially in portraiture, and
portraiture is like where I likewhere I live, really.
(15:59):
Right.
Um, is um if it's notperformative.
And we're all performing, right?
Like as soon as you see a michere, there's an audience, as
soon as I bring a camera out,performance starts.
But over years and years ofdoing that same practice, you
learn how to get rid of thatrecorder, get rid of that
(16:21):
camera.
You know, Henry Cartier-Bressonis like a phenomenal um street
photographer.
And sometimes he's right inpeople's faces, and and um, it
looks like the camera or himdoesn't exist.
It's so magical.
And uh, of course, I'm not astreet photographer, but in
portraiture, I want to createthat.
SPEAKER_01 (16:42):
I think you're I think you're doing a great job
with really pulling out whopeople are, or maybe like
showing them themselves in a newlight that that's a that's a
gift.
You know that?
SPEAKER_00 (16:54):
Thank you, thank you.
I thank you, man.
Thank you for saying that.
You know, before we sat downhere talking about how amazing
of a job you're doing with this,and I am so blown away by you.
And you were talking about hownone of these um episodes have
been the same, and none of thestories have been the same.
And I learned that everyone hasa story to tell, and I get to be
(17:19):
witness to that story justbecause I have a camera in my
hand.
Yeah.
And special.
It's such a it's such aprivilege.
It's such a privilege.
Because um, because yeah, noteveryone is gonna tell their
story, you know, and if youcreate a certain space that
comes out and all of a suddenyou're walking around a big city
like this and there's millionsof stories, you know, it's so
(17:41):
thrilling.
SPEAKER_01 (17:42):
The level of connection and the level of
imagery that you produce can'tbe easy, both uh technically,
but also like emotionally.
It's it's gotta be taxing.
And you're always walking aroundwith this big beautiful smile on
your face.
How much of that is real?
SPEAKER_00 (18:01):
Oh, a hundred percent.
And if it's not real, I hideaway.
Yeah, or I go on a bike ride andor I go for a swim uh and
recharge.
But when I am smiling, I want itto be from my heart.
Because one reason I just don'twant it to be authentic, but
second, people who are close tome can tell, you know?
(18:23):
Yeah.
And um, if it's not there, it'snot there.
SPEAKER_01 (18:26):
Dude, I fucking love that if you that if that smile
isn't on your face, you've got aplan to put it back.
SPEAKER_00 (18:32):
Yeah, you gotta recharge.
But you are you you got it, man.
Like this, there's a lot ofemotional giving in photography
in this style.
And yeah, after a day of uhafter a shoot day, I crash
emotionally, and I have to dosome of those energy recharging
things.
(18:52):
Um, you know, I am Muslim, andMuslims have a daily prayer and
meditative practice, and it'speppered throughout the day, you
know, sunrise, high noon, lateafternoon, sunset, late at
night.
And these five times in the dayare like my hyper recharges.
And I no matter where I am, likeI can figure out where I can do
(19:14):
that.
And uh that has been that hasbeen an one amazing tool for
this.
SPEAKER_01 (19:19):
So that's a I think that's a great segue to kind of
go back and I want to learnabout your origin story.
SPEAKER_00 (19:25):
Yeah, yeah, please.
SPEAKER_01 (19:26):
Yeah, so tell me that story.
Start in Pakistan.
SPEAKER_00 (19:29):
Wow.
Wow.
Um man, it I always wanted to beon NPR.
And uh this one time I got to beon NPR, and the story that I
told was me standing in linewith my parents to enter the
(19:50):
United States.
That's where the story starts.
And it goes six months back towhen I'm in Pakistan and the
hype and the idea of what the USis like, and it goes to six
months later to what it's likebeing here, and it's both
amazing.
But when I'm standing in thatline with my family, and I
cannot believe my parents didthis in their 30s, um we could
(20:10):
have been rejected.
Okay, and they could have beenlike, go home.
And immigration to the US islike a crazy thing.
So I um I grew up in Pakistan inthe foothills of the Himalayas.
So you look at one side of thehorizon and it's the biggest
mountains in the world.
(20:31):
Amazing.
And you look at the other sideof the horizon, it's these
unbelievable Punjabiagricultural plains.
And the comfort of the mountainsof the horizon is like what I
what I really miss here in theMidwest.
But but yeah, I'm a mountainperson.
Um and culturally verydifferent.
(20:53):
And as soon as I came here, Iconsumed this culture, this
language, um, the slang, howpeople interact, like um pretty
obsessively.
And every minute that I wasalone, I was practicing my
accent, and I was reallystudying how people talk, how
people interact, because it'stotally different.
(21:16):
Some of the things that you maydo here are totally unacceptable
in Pakistan, vice versa.
So I spent, you know, the firstmany years of my life.
I moved here with my my my wholefamily moved here, but I was 13
when we moved.
And um I spent that time beingan observer, and now as a
(21:38):
photographer and also I'm anepidemiologist, both these
careers are you're like freakingBatman.
One of my dear friends from NewYork, his name is Hamdan.
He was like, dude, you are theonly commercial photographer I
know that's also anepidemiologist.
(21:58):
Why are these things so siloed?
And I was like, These things arenot siloed.
And um I'm using clinicalresearch problem solving skills
in my creative practice, and I'musing creative problem solving
skills in my clinical researchpractice.
And yeah, I have had these twofull-time careers now for over
(22:23):
eight years, and um, they'revery different, you know.
My day could have the mostenriching creative conversation,
and it could delve into prettyheavy healthcare related topics.
And it just kind of goes backand forth every day for years,
it's been it's been happening.
And for a while I kind of keptthese things separate um in
(22:47):
terms of like talking about it,because when someone hears that
you are a photographer um thathas its other job, they're like,
Oh, you're this is not a realthing, like it's your hobby.
And or if uh in the academicrealm, if someone's like, Oh,
you're also creative, they'relike, Oh, what so are you just
(23:08):
doing this job till you don'thave to?
And I'm like, No, I want to doboth of these things because
both of these things are really,really, really special to me.
And I could have taken either ofthose paths many, many years
ago.
And I had to make a decision atone point about which path I'm
gonna take.
And I was like, I both of thesethings really enrich me, and I
(23:32):
am really, really lucky to beworking at a high level and in
both of these fields.
So I want to find a balance andhow I can make both of these
things happen.
So I bring up my friend Hamdanbecause he was like, I need you
to be more intentionally bringboth of these things together.
And a few years ago, I wrote agrant to the Library of Congress
(23:56):
um with a couple of facultymembers to do a photo project
around a healthcare problemlooking at uh geriatric care in
remote, remote parts ofMichigan.
So I traveled all over Michiganphotographing and doing audio
interviews of people who provideelder care in the most difficult
(24:20):
environments.
And now that whole body of work,which is shot in medium format
film, lives in the Library ofCongress.
And I couldn't have done thatjust as a photographer, and I
couldn't have done that just asan epidemiologist.
These two really differentthings live in harmony.
Like we're having thisconversation right now.
Like earlier this morning, I washaving this detailed, several
(24:43):
hour-long discussion around umstatistical analysis for a
paper.
Um, all these things are umpractices and observation and
and pattern finding.
So yeah, uh yeah, I could say somuch more, but um, but yeah, um
the I I straddle these two verydifferent cultures, and they are
(25:04):
both a big part of me.
And um yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:08):
So at what point in that story did you start
exploring and developing yourcreativity?
SPEAKER_00 (25:15):
Wow.
When I was 16, there was thisfilm camera on my dad's shelf,
and I was like, Dad, you're notusing this.
Can I use it?
And it was strictly a practicein like physics and engineering
for me.
I was like, How does tech thisthing technically work?
SPEAKER_01 (25:33):
That's the scientist in you.
100%.
SPEAKER_00 (25:35):
Yeah.
I was like, let me reverseengineer um how certain aspects
of a camera work.
And I was like, I would see aphoto and I'd be like, how can I
recreate that just from thetechnical aspect?
And um then I learned that ifyou're fast with the technical
aspect, your mind and your heartare able to compose photos that
(25:55):
are unreal.
Like you can feel a feeling,like I can see a photo right
now, and I can prettyimmediately know how to take it,
you know?
So I just hyper focus on thetechnical side for a while.
And man, can I tell you a crazystory?
I wish you would.
And I hope this person hears thestory because I don't think they
know how big of an impact theyhad.
I was shooting just film and Iwould go on photo walks with
(26:18):
people.
And uh this guy is like, hey,can you meet me at IHOP
tomorrow?
So I met him at this IHOP.
I was late, and he was sittingon a table, and there were
several thousands worth oflenses and digital cameras on
the table.
And I sat down, I'm like, heyman, how are you?
And he's like, All this stuff isyours.
And I was like, I was like,dude, I have$325 in my bank
(26:42):
account.
I can't afford this.
And can I give you that?
And he's like, Yes, sure, if youreally want to.
So, but I shoot digital um withthis digital camera, and you
shoot film, and you developedyour one or two roles, and you
have way more good photos thanmy hundreds of photos on my
(27:03):
camera, and you need to levelup.
And he pushed all these lensesand cameras to me, and like it
was such a jump in my world.
Like, this there was thisexternal person, this outwardly
outward validation, really.
And my whole career has been mywhole creative career has been
(27:25):
people taking huge risks withme.
Like, I cannot believe it.
And um, yeah.
So what do you think, what doyou think he saw in you to to
put those resources in your lap?
Oh man, I don't know.
I am so humbled by people allthe time.
unknown (27:43):
I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (27:44):
Why is this such an emotional podcast?
Um, I don't know, man.
I don't know.
This has happened, this kind ofthing has happened over and
over, and I don't know.
And you know, now some of thosepeople who've taken who've like
given me huge jobs, you know, ortrusted me with huge projects.
Um I am friends with them now,and I can go back and I can be
like, you know, dude, what wereyou thinking?
(28:06):
You know, like I didn't have aportfolio or whatever, you know.
Like my first commercial job wasuh a multi-city campaign.
And yes, I had like a portfolioof my personal work, but like
this guy took a huge risk.
SPEAKER_01 (28:20):
So that's not a small job to start on.
SPEAKER_00 (28:22):
Yeah, yeah.
So like when I when I'm talkingto younger creatives and they're
like, okay, so like what do Ido?
And I'm like, man, I cannot tellyou my story because some people
have like been really amazing tome.
SPEAKER_01 (28:34):
So how long have you been shooting officially as or
under Eat Pomegranate?
SPEAKER_00 (28:41):
I think this is year 11.
unknown (28:43):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (28:44):
And I just realized that, and I should have done
something for year 10 last year.
But uh maybe I'll do somethingfor year 11.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:52):
Um, I think maybe some people will hear that name
and be like, oh, that's silly.
He's being silly.
Yeah.
Uh, but I've heard the story.
Yeah.
It's not silly, it's fuckingbeautiful.
SPEAKER_00 (29:01):
Thank you.
Can you share that?
Yeah, love to.
Love to.
So eat pomegranate photography.
You know what a funny name.
Most people can't spellpomegranate and then have to
spell it for them.
Okay.
I'm I'm gonna interject.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:13):
Every time I type it, whenever we have anything
going on, yeah, I type it inGoogle first.
SPEAKER_03 (29:18):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (29:23):
Yes, I did.
SPEAKER_00 (29:24):
Um, yeah, eat pomegranate.
Uh, the origin story is that I'ma young kid.
I've uh four siblings, twobrothers, two sisters.
And you know, every brown momwill cut up fruit for you and
just hand it to you.
I was just home uh last week,and my mom just cut up mangoes
and she's like, here.
And it's just like a brown momthing.
Maybe it's an all kinds of momthing.
(29:45):
Yeah.
And um, when I was a kid, whenit was winter and it was
pomegranate season, she wouldcut up pomegranate and uh serve
us like these seeds, pomegranateseeds.
And fast forward, I'm in collegeand I have my own little
apartment, and I go to a grocerystore and I get my own
pomegranate and I cut it and itsplatters all over the kitchen
(30:07):
backsplash and my shirt.
And I had this like, I was like,my mom has done this hundreds of
times for me, you know?
And of course, I've enjoyedthose pomegranates, but I cannot
believe the work she did, thelove she put into each of those
bowls.
And the way I think aboutphotography is that I kind of
shroud my audience from theprocess of how I get there,
(30:27):
shroud my audience from how Imake a photo.
And maybe someday they'll learnhow all the work I did to make
it.
SPEAKER_01 (30:33):
I do the same thing with design.
It's it's it's personal.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (30:37):
But if that final bowl of pomegranate or that
final photo doesn't feel good,it doesn't matter how I cut up
the pomegranate, it doesn'tmatter how I made it.
But sometimes those people arelike, wow, I just learned the
lengths you went through to giveme this photo.
Thank you so much.
It just has like a secondmeaning, you know.
(30:57):
So, and I'm pouring my heartinto each of these things, the
smallest project to the biggestproject.
So the studio is called EatPomegranate after this
pomegranate experience, youknow.
SPEAKER_01 (31:10):
You travel to Pakistan somewhat frequently,
right?
SPEAKER_00 (31:13):
Yeah, once a year.
Um, I missed last year, I think.
And but but yeah.
Man, Pakistan has such a deepconnection.
This one time I was in CapeTown, South Africa, and I was in
this really cool hotel, and mybusiness phone, my um personal
(31:36):
phone, and my office phone allrang, and I was like, this has
to be like the FBI or something.
And it was the next closestthing, which was a producer from
Al Jazeera, which is like aninternational news show.
And this producer was like, Hey,we've heard some talk of yours,
and we want to bring you in fora half-hour show as a panelist
(31:58):
to talk about the immigrantexperience on our show.
And I was like, This is crazy.
Yes, I'm flying back to the USin two days, and I would love to
be part of this.
So um, the reason I bring thisup is because um in the middle
of the show, I tell this storyabout how I'm in Pakistan.
I'm wearing Pakistani clothes, Ispeak perfect Urdu, and my
(32:21):
driver's sitting next to me,he's also wearing Pakistani
clothes, speaking perfect Urdu,and we sit down without saying
anything, and the shopkeepercomes to me and he's like,
points to me, and he's like,You're not from here.
And he points to my driver andhe's like, You are from here.
And I kept it together, butinternally I broke down because
I'm like, no, no, no, man, thisis my country.
I'm from here.
(32:43):
So I'm talking about the story,and the host is talking about
how, you know, when you're animmigrant, you're an ambassador.
I'm like right now, I'm anambassador to Pakistan.
When I'm in Pakistan, I'm anambassador to the US.
And when you migrate like this,you're from neither place after
a while.
You know, you're from bothplaces and you're from neither
(33:05):
place.
And if you go after one side orthe other, um, I don't know,
like you're you leave half ofyou one way or the other.
So you have to keep both ofthose things close to your
heart.
And I keep both of those thingsclose to my heart.
Like I've acclimated to the US,and this is my country, but also
when I go to Pakistan, that'salso my country, that's my
(33:26):
language, that's my culture,that's my people, that's my
food.
And um, yes, I keep thatconnection and I keep doing
little projects there.
And um, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:36):
If this is something that makes me sound like an
idiot, I'll I'll cut it, but itwon't.
I have, if we're beingcompletely honest, I have a
little bit of jealousy in mebecause as just like a white guy
who frankly I don't know what Iam.
Sure.
I have no idea.
And you know, I see you uh withthese strong roots and pride and
(34:01):
and and love, and it's like Idon't I don't know what that is,
but I'm a white guy.
I've got other stuff that youdon't have.
SPEAKER_00 (34:08):
Yeah.
Man, it's great to be white.
Um sorry, cut that if that makesme sound.
Um but no, no, I I mean I hearyou.
I mean, I think that we all wearso many hats, you know?
And um, and yeah, like I Iconnect to all of those hats.
(34:29):
I am a bicyclist and I'm ascientist, and I am Pakistani,
and I'm Muslim, and I'mAmerican, and I, you know, all
that all that stuff.
Yeah.
It just becomes part of you.
I think that none of thosesingular things are any of us,
and all of those things are allof us, you know?
SPEAKER_01 (34:45):
God, that's amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (34:46):
Yeah.
And that goes for you and me andeveryone, and that's where all
the stories come in, you know?
That's what that's the storieswe're talking about.
SPEAKER_01 (34:53):
You want to take a hard left turn back into
photography?
Yes, please.
Um, a lot of your stuff has thislike timeless quality, but it's
also very fresh.
And I think that's obviouslyvery intentional and
painstaking.
Yeah.
Um, how do you maintain thatquality uh without letting it
get stale?
SPEAKER_00 (35:11):
Yeah, thanks for asking.
Once in a while, I'll take onlike a creative coaching um gig.
And if someone is like, hey,help me, I'm stuck in something,
and then I'll take them on aslike a client.
And this one time, this personwho's an amazing photographer,
um, was like, Hey, can you helpme?
(35:33):
And I was like, Yes, this iswhat we're gonna do.
Every day you're gonna send me aphoto that you take, and uh,
we're gonna do this for a month,and the day that you um miss,
you owe me a hundred bucks.
And I was she's like, Great.
And um, so she takes a pictureand it's great, and she takes a
(35:54):
second picture and it's great.
And the third day she takes apicture, she also puts it on
Instagram, and I'm like, oh no,no, you can this is not for the
world.
Yeah, this is for you and me.
This is for us.
I want to see what what yourheart wants to photograph.
So she's like, Whoa, okay, soI'm not thinking about who's
(36:15):
gonna like it and who's not.
I'm like, no, this is just forus, right?
So day four, five, six, seven,and she can't do it.
She stops on day seven, she'slike, here's a hundred bucks.
She meets me for dinner andshe's like, here's a hundred
bucks.
And I'm like, let's talk aboutwhat happened.
And she's like, when I'mshooting from my myself, it is
(36:39):
so hard.
So, you know, in response toyour question, I'm so bad at
marketing myself, and I'm reallylucky that people hire me.
I don't know how people find me.
SPEAKER_01 (36:52):
I was gonna say you're also full of shit.
SPEAKER_00 (36:54):
Okay, thank you.
Thank you.
Well, I'm happy something isworking, but there's so much
more I could be doing.
I there's so many projects thatI should be sharing that I
don't, right?
And because most of the thing,because a fraction, a 1%, less
than 1% of the work that I makemakes it out into the world.
The rest of it stays prettyclose to my heart.
And um, I think that's whatkeeps it fresh.
(37:16):
I put things out in the worldthat make me feel good that day.
And when you do that, it can bea total flop.
People could hate it or peoplecould love it, but you're not
doing it for that.
You're like, okay, what feltgood today, you know?
SPEAKER_02 (37:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (37:32):
Um yeah, I think that's the only I yeah, I don't
know the answer to yourquestion, but I think that's the
best answer that I can come upwith for how I practice.
SPEAKER_01 (37:40):
I've had this idea just like kind of rolling around
in my head a lot recently, andI'm curious to get your
perspective.
Um, for me, art is just as muchabout self-discovery as it is
self-expression.
So, what are you learning aboutyourself through your process,
through your photographs?
SPEAKER_00 (38:01):
Wow.
Dude, first of all, it's reallynice to be understood.
You called it, like I am pouringmy heart into all of this work.
Um, and that's a double-edgedsword because when I look at my
stuff, sometimes I'm transportedto the exact feeling of a time,
you know?
So um, yes, absolutely.
(38:23):
Not only am I discovering what Ilove or who I love, um, or don't
love, or don't like, or what'sbothering me and what's not
bothering me, um, each of thesethings are like fingerprints on
every photo that I'm taking.
So sometimes I can't go to acertain section of my um
(38:45):
catalog, my like uh organizedlike photo catalog.
Um, and sometimes I can go backto it and just be totally
transported.
Um also I'm so fortunate that Ihave the ability to take
pictures so I can like makethese emotional fingerprints in
my photos.
But yeah, it is a discovery, itis a recording of feelings, it
(39:10):
is um it is all of those things.
SPEAKER_01 (39:12):
Do you ever go back specifically to relive a moment?
SPEAKER_00 (39:17):
Absolutely.
This one time um I took apicture of my grandfather and my
grandmother.
And my grandfather is they bothpassed away, and they were so
special to me.
But my grandfather was ageneral, and he would come out
(39:38):
of his bedroom in a three-piecesuit, and he would go to the
dining table, and he would readthe newspaper, and there'd be a
perfect tea served to him, andhe was just such a man that I've
always looked up to.
And my grandmother was likeAudrey Hepburn, she had this
grace that was magical, right?
(40:00):
And um, they were both in thepublic eye a lot.
And I had this beautiful accessto them as their grandson with
my camera, you know, since apretty young age.
And one day I was like, hey, canI take a picture of you on this
balcony?
And my grandmother andgrandfather were really into
plants, so they had these hugetrees behind them.
(40:21):
And I asked my grandfather tolook at his wife, my
grandmother, like the first timehe saw her.
And this softness came on to himthat none of us had ever seen.
And he was soft and loving andcaring, but this was a magical
softness.
And um, that photo now hangs onour uh gallery wall at my
(40:45):
parents' house.
And uh yeah, man, I can go backto that photo and feel that
softness from my grandfather inlike a moment.
SPEAKER_01 (40:56):
It's amazing because the way you're treating that
photo is the same way that yourgrandfather was treating your
grandmother.
Yes.
And that is so beautiful.
That is so amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (41:06):
I mean, it's rich in these photos, and um, yeah,
yeah.
It's uh and you know, likepeople have brought me into
really, really vulnerable placesum to record this kind of thing,
you know, and it's such aprivilege, and I and I take it
very seriously, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (41:23):
Yeah.
Do you ever have and you canjust say yes or no if you don't
want to get into anything, butdo you ever have those
photographs that you just avoidentirely?
SPEAKER_00 (41:33):
Yeah, absolutely, because it's uh emotional
quotient, you gotta manage it,you know?
Yeah.
So absolutely, there's certaintimes that are put in a vault
for a little while, and maybeI'll open them up later.
And certain ones I'm going backto all the time.
And when I look at my um catalogof photos, I know where those
parts are.
(41:54):
Right.
And uh yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (41:56):
Do you ever get lost in that space or is just or is
your compass kind of alwaysperfectly calibrated?
SPEAKER_00 (42:02):
Oh no, nothing is perfect, you know, no one's
perfect.
Man, I just got a suit recently,and it's a suit of my dreams,
you know.
And I went to this suit.
I can't believe you didn't wearit today.
I should have worn a suit.
Um, I and uh I mean you go infor several fittings for this
kind of thing, and um then theyperfect it.
(42:25):
And on the very last fitting,he's like, I just want you to
know that nothing is perfect.
And he's like, you know, the TajMahal is supposed to be this
perfect architectural marvel,but Akbar, the the guy who
commissioned it, got you know,it's a it's a mausoleum for his
wife's grave, and he got them tomake the grave just a little
(42:46):
crooked to make it intentionallynot perfect, because only like
God's supposed to be perfect,right?
So I yeah, man, definitely notperfect, definitely all over the
place, but that's where themagic lives, you know?
SPEAKER_01 (42:59):
I think what makes us unique as uh as artists, as
creatives is our perspective andour experiences.
And I think we have to reallyprotect that.
Do you have a vetting process tokind of keep your your client
roster clean and to keep thepoison out?
SPEAKER_00 (43:19):
Oh my god, I'm gonna give you all my secrets.
Yes, heavily.
I love people, I love strangerson the street, especially in
Chicago, when you're drivingaround, um, for a lot of people,
their car is their only sacredspace.
And you see a lot of peoplecrying or laughing in their car
(43:40):
because that's like the onlytime they're alone sometimes.
And I love I've like thoughtabout people I've seen crying,
and I've thought about peopleI've seen laughing.
Um so yeah, baseline, I lovepeople, right?
But my work is so heart forwardand heart first that if I my
heart is not in a good place, Ican't really make work.
(44:03):
So yeah, there's a huge processof who's my friend and who I'm
talking to, and absolutely withclients.
Um, because yeah, you cannotmess with that good heart space.
But you know, another thing Iwant to say is that I am
unbelievably fortunate in termsof clients.
(44:24):
Like I don't have bad clientstories, you know.
Yeah, really.
What about red flags?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, I think that, you know, aswe grow older, and this is not
just about creativity, I thinkit's just about just as people.
Our filters become more refined.
And that's, I think, thedefinition of like wisdom, you
know.
And I think as we get wiser, wehave more refined filters for
(44:48):
who gets in, who get whodoesn't.
And you know, with me, I thinklike everyone gets in, but very
few people are in that innercircle who I'm doing
collaborative work with, becausecollaborative work is so sacred.
And you know, we've known eachother professionally for a long
time and personally for a longtime.
I have been so lucky to docollaborative work with some of
(45:08):
the best, you know, some of thebest.
So um yeah, really sacred space.
SPEAKER_01 (45:13):
You ever do that dumbass thing where you compare
yourself to other photographers?
SPEAKER_00 (45:17):
Oh my gosh, it's hard not to do.
Why do we do that?
Man, I have found a solution toit.
Okay.
Hit me.
I sometimes, and you know, we'reall like bidding for work for
commercial projects.
Sometimes someone who is muchbetter than you gets a job.
And that feels good to me.
(45:39):
Because I'm like, uh, yep, theydeserve this.
Yeah.
And I'm gonna level up.
And yeah, like I journal a lot,and I just like two weeks ago
journaled about this exact thinghappening, and it wasn't a bad
feeling, it was a great feeling.
Um, but it doesn't feel good ifsomeone else gets a job or does
(46:01):
something and I could have doneit a lot better.
SPEAKER_01 (46:03):
And you know that's your job.
SPEAKER_00 (46:05):
Yes, you know, and and that doesn't feel as good.
But if someone is better, Icongratulate them, I lift them
up, and I then go home and Ihustle and I work.
SPEAKER_01 (46:16):
You know, I I've kind of noticed this like
generational thing when it comesto excuse me, when it comes to
creativity and business, where Ithink that maybe uh and maybe
I'm gonna sound like an asshole,maybe I'm gonna turn some people
off, but I think an oldergeneration it's it's it's all
competition.
I'm gonna do whatever I have todo to to get this work and to
(46:37):
grow by business and and allthat stuff.
But I think you know, uh peoplearound our age, we're in our mid
to late 30s, uh maybe uh even alittle older, um into your
forties.
Um it's an ambulance orsomething outside.
Chicago Sounds.
Yeah.
Um I think we celebrate eachother a lot more.
(46:59):
And I think I think weappreciate when somebody um that
you know is deserving fuckingcrushes it.
SPEAKER_00 (47:07):
Yes, yes.
There's more than enough work togo around, you know?
Yeah, and we're strongertogether.
And you know, we're sitting inChicago, this beautiful hotel,
this beautiful view of one of myfavorite neighborhoods.
And um, this city, my experienceof this city is that um people
lift each other.
(47:28):
People have lifted me up here,and it's been so humbling.
Um, and I really think it'sbeautiful how Gen Z is pushing
those paradigms.
You know, they're like, Why do Ihave to go up this ladder?
Yeah, why can't I?
And there's like there's prosand cons to that, but like I
love that they're doing that alittle.
SPEAKER_01 (47:45):
You know, I look at Gen Z and I and I feel optimism,
but I think even more than likemillennials, Gen Z is stepping
up and saying, like, hey, cutthe shit.
SPEAKER_03 (47:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (47:54):
So if if if there's any Gen Zers listening, um, I'm
on your side, just get off myfucking skinny jeans.
SPEAKER_00 (48:03):
Then you look good.
I like the jeans you wear.
We're gonna do some geneshopping next time you come to
Chicago.
SPEAKER_01 (48:08):
I cannot wait for that.
SPEAKER_00 (48:09):
You're great.
SPEAKER_01 (48:10):
Um you wanna go topic hopping?
SPEAKER_00 (48:13):
Yes, let's do it.
Let's hop.
SPEAKER_01 (48:15):
When you're gone, what do you hope people say
about you?
SPEAKER_00 (48:18):
Oh wow.
Thank you for that question.
I hope people say that rememberthat one time it felt really
good.
SPEAKER_01 (48:30):
Finish the thought.
Creativity requiresvulnerability.
What would your last meal be?
You gotta tell me more.
SPEAKER_00 (48:43):
Oh my gosh.
So I've been a vegetarian,pescatarian, I guess, for 20
some years, and I think the onlyway I've been able to do it is
because South Asian food, SouthAsian vegetables are amazing.
Save the day.
Yes.
And um, when Americans hearabout okra, they think about
like gumbo, like slimy gumbo.
But the way we do it in SouthAsia, it's it's like a dryer fry
(49:05):
with a tomato base.
And um, my siblings always jokeand they put stuff like this on
Instagram.
It's like almost like memeablethat uh when I'm coming home, my
mom like cuts up a bunch ofokra.
So yeah, um, she is anunbelievable cook.
And um, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (49:23):
You know what I think of when I think of okra is
cracker barrel, and that'sthanks to my grandma Judy.
SPEAKER_00 (49:29):
Yes, uh fried okra, right?
Yeah, yes, cool.
Yeah, you know, you know what'sup.
SPEAKER_01 (49:33):
Yeah.
Um what's the best advice you'veever received?
SPEAKER_00 (49:37):
Um, I was at some I was 17 or something, maybe 18,
and I was at this art fair in umAnn Arbor, Michigan, and uh this
guy had these beautiful photosof Cuba.
I was like, hey, I'm a youngphotographer, and I want you
what advice do you have for me?
And it is beautiful photos.
There was no people, and he waslike, You have to photograph
(49:59):
people, it's the hardest thingto do.
And I that role of film, Iswitched to photographing
people, and I never stopped.
SPEAKER_01 (50:09):
Yeah, you never went back, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (50:11):
And I um at that time I would shoot one role of
film per week and then I wouldgo develop it, and um I did I've
done that forever, or sincethen.
So um that was and I you know, Ididn't know at the time that
this guy is gonna change mylife, and I wish I could find
(50:32):
him, and I wish I rememberedsome detail about him that could
like connect back to the uh whathis name is or whatever, but I
yeah, that guy.
SPEAKER_01 (50:42):
God, I love that.
Man, what's the worst?
SPEAKER_00 (50:45):
Worst advice.
Oh my gosh, where is yourbusiness gonna be in five years?
SPEAKER_01 (50:51):
Dude, I hate that.
SPEAKER_00 (50:52):
And uh was like um right here, just doing better
work, and he hated that.
And I was like, Oh, okay.
Like, well I think we're told mydifferent things.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (51:05):
Knowing what you know now, yeah, uh, what advice
would you give to yourself juststarting out?
SPEAKER_00 (51:11):
Oh my gosh.
You know, I approach whomeveryou want to collaborate.
I think it took me a long timeto do that, and I'm really
fortunate that the first time Idid it, and almost every time
that I've done it, people havebeen interested.
And I've learned the most fromcollaboration because when
(51:32):
you're working in that intimatecreative space with someone, you
learn things that you can't talkabout.
You learn things that can't betaught.
SPEAKER_01 (51:39):
What's the worst idea that you've ever followed
through with?
SPEAKER_00 (51:42):
Man, this is such a cop-out.
Let me cop out real quick.
But you know, I've done a bunchof dumb things and they've
taught me great.
Yeah, they've been great, youknow?
This one time I was in Nigeria,and I saw these four people
sitting on this stoop, and thesun was setting on the other
(52:03):
side of them.
So they were uh they werecreating this beautiful
silhouette.
And I took my camera out, whichis like a 10-pound thing, and I
pointed it at them to take thispicture of the silhouette, and
they saw me and they reached onthe other side of the stoop and
they grabbed their machine gunsand they started running after
me.
And I started running at as fastas I've ever run.
(52:26):
Holy shit.
Yeah.
And I ran into my hotel, whichwas also protected by machine
gun guards, and I got in, and Iwas like, what just happened?
And what happened was that theywere selling gray market
gasoline, which is very illegal,and um, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (52:40):
And they thought you were trying to fuck them up.
SPEAKER_00 (52:42):
Yes, and um, but two days later, I was in this remote
village in Nigeria outside ofAbuja, and I took my camera out,
and the whole village came tome, and I took some of my
favorite photos of it.
God, that's amazing.
Yeah.
So, so you know, like um Ididn't teach me anything.
I still took my camera out twodays later.
unknown (53:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (53:06):
What are you watching or listening to right
now?
SPEAKER_00 (53:09):
I just got back, just got back hanging out with
my cousins in the UK, and thenwe did this hiking trip across
Ireland, and um they are soknowledgeable about music, and
they listen to grime, and I justwant anyone that's listening to
this to explore grime, and it'sa good time.
(53:32):
So I'm listening to a lot ofBritish grime.
SPEAKER_01 (53:34):
It sounds terrible.
SPEAKER_00 (53:36):
I mean, it's an acquired taste, but it does good
things to your body.
What's your favorite thing?
This fountain pen my grandmothergave me, and she would write
these letters that are famousbecause they were would be as if
you were sitting across fromher.
They were the mostconversational yet the most
elegant letters.
And she gave me this fountainpen that is amazing.
(54:00):
I still use it.
SPEAKER_01 (54:02):
Do you have any regrets?
SPEAKER_00 (54:04):
You know, so many regrets.
Um so many regrets, but I thinkthere's a beauty in accepting
them, you know?
But it's a butterfly effect.
You know, what happens if I goback and change them?
Do I not experience otherthings?
SPEAKER_01 (54:17):
Yeah, are you not the person you are today?
SPEAKER_00 (54:19):
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (54:21):
All right, last question I have for you.
Are you okay?
SPEAKER_00 (54:25):
Oh, thank you.
I'm good.
I wouldn't have been able to dothis if I wasn't good.
So thanks for waiting for me.
SPEAKER_01 (54:32):
Well, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (54:34):
Thank you.
Yes, my heart feels good.
Good.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (54:38):
Good.
Uh before we go, um where canpeople find you?
SPEAKER_00 (54:42):
Oh my gosh, they can find me on eatpomegranate.com.
They can find me on Instagram,and uh they can find me biking
around Chicago.
SPEAKER_01 (54:55):
Dude, thank you so much for doing this.
So appreciative.
Like I said, you were top of mylist uh before I recorded a
single episode.
And uh thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (55:04):
Thank you so much.
This is such an honor.
I uh I know people say that, butman, this means the world to me.
So thank you.
And you mean a lot to me.
Uh get your nose out of my eyes.
SPEAKER_03 (55:14):
Yeah, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
Let's get out of here.
SPEAKER_00 (55:16):
Thank you, thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (55:21):
I can't make them go away.
SPEAKER_01 (55:26):
Bad Idea Social Club is an independent podcast made
possible by merch sales,reviews, and listener support.
And it's created and hosted byme, graphic designer Ed McCall,
and co-hosted by photographerJoe Madison.
Music is noises by Mike Nates inthe branches.
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