⏮ REWIND // Leigh Ann Cobb: Awkward Art Kid

Part of our REWIND summer series, we’re revisiting eight conversations that crawled into our brains and hearts, nested, and just live there now. This time, it’s "Leigh Ann Cobb: Awkward Art Kid" from Season 4.

Leigh Ann Cobb (photographer) shares her story with Aaron McCall as they discuss going from an awkward art kid to an awkward art grown-up, what it takes to keep her sense of self and identity in check, and the relationship between Leigh Ann and the camera, the camera and her subjects, and more importantly, Leigh Ann and her subjects.

Keep up with Leigh Ann Cobb:
leighanncobb.com
IG: @leigh.ann.cobb.photo

Creative Mornings Grand Rapids
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——
This episode is supported by:
Creative Mornings Grand Rapids
Merchants & Makers
——
Writer/Producer/Editor/Host:
Aaron McCall
aaronmccall.net
IG: @aaron_mccall
——
Co-Host/Sidekick/Photographer:
Joe Matteson
themattesons.co
IG: @joe_dustin
——
Music:
"Noises" by Mike Mains & The Branches
——
Support the Podcast:
Buy Merch
——
Follow Bad Idea Social Club:
badideasocialclub.com
IG: @badideasocialclub

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:38):
My teachers would end up using my images as
references of how to like how tohave the kids draw.
I know it was a it was greatbecause in no other way was I
like a very good kid.

SPEAKER_05 (00:55):
I guess we're gonna make them go away.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12):
My name is Joe Madison.
And I am Aaron McCall.

SPEAKER_02 (01:15):
And this time we're gonna go back and revisit Leanne
Cobb, Awkward Art Kid.
Leanne is one of the coolestpeople I've ever met.
Easily.
Like, and that's uh like I knowthat sounds like blowing smoke
and bullshit, but if you've mether, you know that's not that's
not the case at all.
Right.
She's a photographer, and I'llbe honest, like she just kind of
walked in and took over theconversation like right away.

(01:38):
Like I was I wasn't runningfucking anything.
Yeah.
Um which I which I deeply,deeply appreciate and respect
because she made my job so easy.
But yeah, she's she's that she'sthat weird art kid who never
really stopped being that weirdart kid.
And we talked about loosening agrip on the outcome of things,
trusting yourself, and how youstop trying to control

(02:02):
everything and just let ithappen, man.
That's where the coolest shithappens.

SPEAKER_01 (02:06):
I look up to her work both in regard to how she
interacts with her subjects andthe editorial side of her work
and the message of her work.

SPEAKER_02 (02:16):
I love that.
Dude, and it's really it wasreally fun to be photographed by
her too.
It was awesome.
Was it was it before seasonthree or after somewhere around
there that uh she shot us forlike promo stuff and was it
after season three?

SPEAKER_01 (02:30):
I think it was after.
I don't know.
Yeah, it was at the meanwhile.
There's no way of knowing.
Yeah, there's no way of it.

SPEAKER_02 (02:34):
But anyways, it it is it is it it it it's it's an
absolute pleasure to be shot byher.
Yeah.
She's just a cool energy to bearound.

SPEAKER_01 (02:41):
I agree.
So before we dive in, don'tforget to follow wherever you're
listening.
Leave a five-star review.
Don't forget to tell yourfriends.

SPEAKER_02 (02:48):
Also, this thing runs off of uh merch sales,
reviews, and listener support.
If you're digging the show,please help us out.
If you're not, I don't I don'tknow what you're doing here.
Um but um quick note seasoneight starts in two weeks,
September 15th.
So we're gonna take next weekoff.
We're just gonna hang out, we'regonna get ready for that.

(03:08):
Until then, here is uh LeanneCobb, Awkward Art Kid, season
four, episode three.

SPEAKER_00 (03:15):
I love these.
Aren't they great?
Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 (03:18):
They sound really good too.

SPEAKER_00 (03:20):
Oh, oh, that's awesome.
I have tinnitus, and so I'vebeen wearing a lot of headphones
lately.
A good headphone makes all thedifference.

SPEAKER_02 (03:30):
That's is that like inner ear stuff?
What is that?

SPEAKER_00 (03:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
When I was at uh Kendall uh formy bachelor's, I worked in the
metal shop.
Which most of the time thereweren't a lot of machines
running, but it was just enoughto like be a dumb kid who never
would put ear protection on, butjust enough to be around loud
noises to fuck up my hearing.
So yeah, now I've got a prettynasty ring and it wasn't from

(03:53):
anything cool, like a lot ofconcerts or anything.

SPEAKER_02 (03:56):
Yeah, you weren't in a band or anything like that.

SPEAKER_00 (03:57):
I was not in a band.
I wish I can't play aninstrument to save my life.
I wish I could.

SPEAKER_02 (04:02):
That's funny because I feel like you really give me
this like I'm in a band vibe.

SPEAKER_00 (04:07):
Yeah, yeah.
I've been trying to pull thatvibe off probably since I was
16.

unknown (04:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (04:12):
Like I always wanted to be in band.
Like that seemed like the coolgroup.
I had to settle for the theaterkits, which was so cool, but
like band was way more fun.
You also like played aninstrument and could talk about
music.
And yeah, that was somethingthat was so beyond me.
But my husband's also amusician.
And so that's been really fun tolearn all of these like really

(04:32):
specific technical things aboutmusic that I personally could
not pick out of the way that Ilook at a lot of visual art.
So it's been really fun to makea lot of those parallels.
Like, oh, okay, so the way thatyou would play with pedals or
something is the way that Iwould use presets.
And so understanding like theartist.
Like, oh, this is all the same.
Right, right.

(04:53):
Like those choices, like the theway that artists can come into
an idea or into a style, and allthe amount of choice you have is
so specific and it's so varied.
So, and it was so ununtapable tome by myself.
Like I could not conceive ofmusic the way I could uh visual

(05:14):
art.
So it's been really fun tolearn.

SPEAKER_02 (05:16):
Yeah, I try to I try to give that to my wife and she
uh rejects it completely.
She's like, I don't give a shitabout you going off on your
soapbox or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 (05:26):
But that's so cute to share too.
So is she artistic in any in anyway, either visually or
musically?

SPEAKER_02 (05:33):
Um, not in those ways.
No.
Um, I would say she's a she's apretty creative person.
Yeah.
I wouldn't say that she has anoutlet.

SPEAKER_00 (05:39):
Okay, no, that's so fair.
An outlet.
Like, if everyone knew of anoutlet, I f I would be so
excited for what that would dofor the rest of the world.
Like everyone had an outlet.
Do you find that your outlet isthe same as your money maker?

SPEAKER_02 (05:52):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (05:53):
How does that make you feel?

SPEAKER_02 (05:54):
Great, because I've been working my entire life for
that.
Because it's like I like it'sall I want to do.
You know what I mean?
It's all I want to do.
I just want to draw stuff, Iwant to design stuff, I want to
make stuff.
And uh now people pay me for it.
It it it it might not always beexactly what I want to do.

SPEAKER_00 (06:09):
Right.
Well, sure, sure.
I mean, but it's also nice to toI mean, you've been doing it
long enough now too, you cancompartmentalize the shit from
like the stuff you like.

SPEAKER_02 (06:19):
Yeah, and I just don't I just try not to do the
shit anymore unless like youknow, I'm in like a pinch.

SPEAKER_00 (06:24):
God damn it, right?
Have you ever felt burnout?

SPEAKER_02 (06:27):
Oh, fucking always.
I think I've been perpetuallyburnt out for 10 years.

SPEAKER_00 (06:33):
Fuck, okay, but you just said how much you love it
and how fulfilled it is.
Like, what is that paradox,right?

SPEAKER_03 (06:39):
Dude.

SPEAKER_00 (06:40):
Does it like some days you just feel like I want
to be done with this?
Like I wanna like clean theslate and try something
completely new.

SPEAKER_02 (06:47):
Uh I don't know that it's ever like something
completely new, but sometimesit's like I need to not do this
right now.
I need to shut this door and getout because uh I'm not doing
myself any favors, I'm not doingmy clients any favors.
I'm gonna go cuddle with the dogon the couch for a little while
until I wake up tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 (07:08):
Yeah, yeah.
The uh the breaks.
As I get older, the breaks aremore important.
Like you gotta have downtime tobe able to like stay and keep
that like I don't know, thatbusy pace, that like creative
output the same.

SPEAKER_02 (07:23):
How are you how are you spending your time to kind
of keep that pace up?

SPEAKER_00 (07:26):
This year has been really interesting with like
starting the swimwear businesswith my business partner and
then also having like anestablished photo career.
I haven't had a lot of downtimeand it's just really starting to
show.
This past month was like abreak, like a hard break.
Reading, sketching, just doinganything but work.

SPEAKER_03 (07:47):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (07:47):
Because I I had never given that to myself.
Like it was always like, okay,every moment has to be working
towards something eitherprofitable or educational or
beneficial in some way, and thennothing felt good for a while.

SPEAKER_04 (08:02):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (08:03):
So yeah, I don't know.
I'm still trying to find thebalance.
That's the hard part.

SPEAKER_02 (08:07):
Well, I think I think balance looks different to
probably everybody.
Oh, right.
Yeah.
In a perfect world, my balancewould be 50-50.
You know, life, uh, but ri youknow, life and work, but like
really it's it's probably about80-20 and it works kind of.

SPEAKER_00 (08:25):
Yeah.
So wait, 80's the down.

SPEAKER_02 (08:28):
80's the 80s the go.

SPEAKER_00 (08:30):
Oh, the 80s the go.
That's what I mean.
80 is the go.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (08:33):
And then the 20 is like personal stuff, um, which
is uh not sustainable in anyway.
But but what is what doesbalance look like for you
ideally?

SPEAKER_00 (08:42):
I'm really trying to figure that out right now.
I think um for the longest time,uh, balance to me was learning
while creating.
And now I'm just too tired tokeep doing that like constantly.
So I think the balance needs tobe like active rest.

(09:03):
I feel guilty about resting.

SPEAKER_02 (09:05):
I get that.

SPEAKER_00 (09:06):
Right, right.
And it's so like it's suchbullshit too, because we hear
about it all the time.
Like, don't feel don't feel badabout taking breaks.
Breaks are essential, but alsoevery minute that you're not
working towards something islike an opportunity missed.

SPEAKER_02 (09:17):
Right.
And and and you know, even I'veI've I've heard myself preach
that.
I've heard myself preach the getsome rest, take your time, get
some sleep, drink water, allthat stuff.

SPEAKER_00 (09:27):
Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 (09:29):
But do I practice it?
No.

SPEAKER_00 (09:30):
No, no, right.
Like, I mean, is that yeah, Ialmost feel like you need to
hear yourself say it to somebodyelse to be reminded.
But it's it's really hard to do.
And also just feel like you cankeep up.
I think, like you said, themomentum.
Um for the first several yearsof my career was so easy to say
yes to everything because that'swhat it took to get to a right.

(09:53):
And so the moment that like Itried to downshift into a slower
gear, it almost felt like Ican't, I don't know how to
maintain that quality stillunless I'm fully immersed in it.
Which, like, that's not healthyeither.
There's um this was onInstagram, of course, which is
where I get like most of my funfacts now.
But it's so annoying.

(10:15):
I hate, I'm like, That's wherewe're at.
It is, that's where we're at.
It just is.
I know.
Um, yeah, I saw this thing on anemail chain.
No, it's it's not like that.
But um there is this guy, andI'm gonna I'm gonna like botch
all of the specifics, but hepaints the like very classic,
hand paints the classic line onexpensive sports cars.

SPEAKER_03 (10:38):
Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (10:39):
And like he gets paid an insane amount of money
to do it.
But in this, in this little clipabout him that I was watching,
he they basically said, like, hehasn't taken a vacation in 10
years because what he doesrequires so much concentration
that he can't he can't stepaway.
He can't step away.
And as soon as I saw that, Imean, I'm like, I'm not painting
a line by hand, but like that'sin a lot of ways how I felt the

(11:02):
first 10 years of my job beinglike I can't step away because
I'll miss something.

SPEAKER_04 (11:06):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (11:07):
So then what do you do after that?
And that's kind of where I'vebeen at now is like, okay, if I
know that like I gotta stayengaged somehow, but I'm feeling
burnt out about the things thatI were doing even just a couple
months ago that were exciting,then what what do I do instead?
So like picking up new things isbeen the way I'm like
supplementing that.

(11:27):
But active rest, I still don'tknow what that is.

SPEAKER_02 (11:30):
It's a it's a dream, it's a romantic dream.

SPEAKER_00 (11:32):
It is, yeah.
I think that's yeah, it'ssomething to keep us feeling
like really beat down.

SPEAKER_02 (11:38):
So here, let me ask you this.
Let's talk about this.
Let's talk about this Lee Leannesitu.
What is it?
What do we like?

SPEAKER_00 (11:44):
Yeah, okay.
What do I do?
Yeah.
Oh, this is great.
So growing up, uh my par I likeI like my name.
My parents did a really goodjob, I think, personally.
They um it could have beenFanny, could have been Fanny.
So I'm grateful it wasn't.

SPEAKER_02 (11:58):
I was almost Ian.

SPEAKER_00 (11:59):
Oh, I could kind of see that.
I mean, but like you wouldn't.

SPEAKER_02 (12:03):
I think no, I don't I I'm definitely not an Ian.
My uh my my grandmother used tosay uh that she talked my
parents out of naming me Ianbecause she would say like Ian.
Ian and she just hated it.

SPEAKER_00 (12:15):
Yeah, that's the way you do it.
No, that's that's I was I wasactually um from what if from
what I remember, my mom said Iwas named after a neighbor of
theirs, a man and a woman.
The man passed away, his namewas Lee, like around the time I
was born.
But they pretty much like werevery pivotal in my mom's growing
up, but his name was Lee, andthen they threw Anne on it, and

(12:37):
they would call me Lee and LeeAnn really interchangeably.
And then in school, there wasone kid named Lee, and he was a
dude.
So I was immediately like LeeAnn, so that there is a
differentiation.
And then every couple of years,like I'd start going by Lee, and
then I'd start working atsomewhere like Lee and Birch.

(12:57):
And and then people would belike, Oh, are you the owner?
You're Lee.
So I'd have to then go by LeeAnn again.
So I've I've always I've alwayslike teetered between those two
names.
It hasn't bothered me, but it isalways I see people's panic when
they have to decide forthemselves.

SPEAKER_02 (13:12):
Like in the moment.

SPEAKER_00 (13:13):
Yeah, because I'm like, I whichever one.
But there's but that's thethat's one of the two responses.
Because that's the one whereeveryone's like, oh God, I don't
want to pick the wrong one.
Or there's the other response,which is just as surprising to
me, is you're Leanne to me.
You're Lee.
No, no, I will not call you,like, I will not call you by the
other thing.
People are very, I have a fewThey pick their spot and they

(13:36):
sit in it.
That's exactly it.
They're like, there is no, youare not Lee to me.
You are not Li An to me.
And so I find that like such afun micro social experiment when
I'm meeting new people or peopleI've known for a really long
time, or like when worldscollide and I hear somebody say
Leanne, and in the sameconversation, the other person's
responding we, and you just seethem both like are the same

(13:57):
people.
But yeah, I get I get a kick outof it.

SPEAKER_02 (13:59):
I I have felt that panic.

SPEAKER_00 (14:02):
I know, and uh I think I love it.

SPEAKER_02 (14:05):
I chose I chose Leanne.
Yeah, uh just because I think itrolls off my tongue a little
better.

SPEAKER_00 (14:09):
Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (14:10):
I uh like I I had a stuttering problem kind of
growing up and stuff.
Wow.
And so sometimes it still tricksme.
Yeah, it still it still trips meup.
And like Leanne just rolls offmy tongue a little better.
So I've I've I've picked that.

SPEAKER_00 (14:24):
God, see, but I love that because now I just learned
something about you from that.
And I so that's always myfavorite, although it I do know
it is uncomfortable for somepeople to have to make that
choice.
But yeah, I also occasionally goby LA.
There have been a few peoplethat have called me that or in
text because that's so mucheasier.

SPEAKER_02 (14:42):
LA is good too.
I didn't even consider that.

SPEAKER_00 (14:44):
I know, I know, and because my name's spelled so
it's got a lot of silentletters, and so especially like
texting, keeping it short isalways a fine thing by me.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (14:55):
I kind of want to know about your first taste of
creativity as a self-proclaimedawkward art kid.
So give me the backstory,please.
Oh man.

SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
I think um I've always enjoyed drawing, even
when I was very little.
But I think one of the firstrealizations that I was maybe uh
one of the stronger like artkids in a class was that my
teachers would end up using myimages as references of how to

(15:29):
like how to have the kids draw.
I know it was a bit it was greatbecause in no other way was I
like a very good kid.
I was I was uh I I was very slowto learn things, I was super
awkward socially.
Um, so yeah, that was like myfirst like foray into like
succeeding or excelling atsomething.

(15:49):
I was really gangly and and veryuncoordinated.
So like that was the one thingthat I felt like, oh, I have
some control or some masteryover this naturally, um, even
though it's still just like, Imean, maybe one level above my
peers, right?
Like it was untrained, but itgave me uh a sense of like I
have a skill.
I think it was the first time Inoticed, like, I have a skill.

(16:11):
That's cool.
And and so pretty early on, likeI had asked my parents, like,
can I take art classes?
And so I had been taking drawinglessons.
Oh my God, when did I start?
Like junior high, sixth grade,and all through high school.
And then I took, um, I did thesame thing at at Kendall.
I was a drawing major for twoyears until I found printmaking

(16:33):
and then uh double majored.
Because the process, again, likeI'm just such a sucker for
learning a process.
Like I can get lost in the ideaof like how learning certain
steps or background ortechniques or or materials can
shape the way your work comesout.
Like I don't know, significantlytoo.

(16:53):
Significantly, right?
Like there's a and again, likeall of my all of my references
are so general and foggy, but umwhen the typewriter was
invented, right?
Like there was a bunch ofwriters and and um clinisticians
who had been handwriting thingstheir whole lives, poets,
authors, all of that.

(17:15):
And as soon as the typewritercame out, they noticed that
their the way at which theythought and the way that which
they typed or wrote wasdifferent because of the
mechanisms that they were usingversus handwriting.
And it's like a tool can affectus in so many ways we don't even
realize.
So I was just so excited to likelearn how different techniques

(17:37):
would change my inherentabilities, some stronger, some
weaker.
That that was that was the mostfun element, I think, of like
learning art and and continuingto like really immerse myself in
the in the world of art.

SPEAKER_02 (17:52):
So, so when did you go from drawing and printmaking
to basically living behind acamera?

SPEAKER_00 (17:58):
Oh, yeah.
Uh, it was totally by accident.
So I got uh a degree in drawingand printmaking, and I totally
expected to go on to grad schooland get my master's so I could
teach.
I just figured that was gonna bea really great arena for me,
given that I was such a sociallyawkward kid.
I thought, like, okay, aneducational space is really
great.

SPEAKER_04 (18:17):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (18:18):
I can I know I can make other people comfortable in
my own classroom with my ownrules.
And also I just loved learning.
So it was like, oh, this will bethe perfect gig and summers off.
Okay.
But grad school was soexpensive.
So uh when I graduated with mybachelor's, I was looking into
other art colleges around thecountry and just like dabbling

(18:38):
in jobs here in Grand Rapids topass the time.
And eventually one of the one ofthe jobs I got was working for
this little eyewear company intown.
And they they just realized,like, oh, you have an art degree
and we we could use somebranding, we could use some, you
know, visuals.
And so I just kind of pretendedto be uh a graphic designer,

(19:00):
pretended to be a photographer.
And then occasionally we wouldhave budgets to actually hire
photographers in town.
And we got to, I got to workwith some really great people as
a client, which was so cool.
Cause then being that I was justdoing it for fun as a hobby on
the side, or doing kind of thefake-to-make it make it work
kind of stuff, seeing how thesepeople work in these

(19:22):
environments, I was like, Ithink I can do that.
And so um, around that time, Ihad a lot of friends also
getting married.
So, like doing weddingphotography was the perfect way
for me to like explore differentlighting conditions and candid
scenes and posed and like what ahigh-stakes environment to to
learn stuff.
It was, it was, and I burnt outof it after five years.

(19:45):
The emotional toll of working,and it wasn't even with the
clients.
I loved all of my bridalclients.
They were, we always connected.
Uh, it was the dynamics of awedding.
It's all of the things that youdon't think of and the the high
stakes of like stressful parentsor stressed out parents, or you

(20:05):
know, um just like this insanetimeline or just the anxieties
around the whole day.
And I would be around it.
And it it was.
And then if I felt like I didn'tdo a good job, I couldn't sleep
at night.
Like it was it was a lot.
So after five years, it wasenough to be like, okay, I know
what I'm good at, I know what mystrengths are, and I think I'm
gonna really crush it atcommercial work because I I can

(20:28):
have a little more structure andthere's way less emotion
attached to the image.

SPEAKER_03 (20:32):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (20:33):
But yeah, being able to work with real people was
awesome.
Like uh, I I didn't really getto play around with um models
until a little bit later.
And so just being able to tapinto how people are feeling and
make them comfortable in frontof the camera was a really great
way to learn.
And really the last thing Ilearned was the technical stuff.

(20:54):
I, I mean, I did not call myselfa photographer for probably the
first four years I was in itbecause I was just like, no, I'm
I'm I'm I'm using the camera,but I am not, I'm not a
technical photographer.
And um I was really scared ofall of the lighting equipment
and the extra gear, and I Iwouldn't talk to people about it
either.
I'm like, I had one camera, acouple lenses, but at first I

(21:17):
only had one, and I would justlearn as much as I could on the
one thing.
And and then it was once I feltlike I couldn't get what I
wanted, that's when I'd startexpanding my kit.
But like there's so many ways totake an image.
Yeah, it's wild, it's so fun,but um yeah, I can't remember
what you asked originally.

(21:37):
I feel like I can't eithertangenting.
Does that happen a lot?
The tangents okay, yeah.
That's what this is for.

SPEAKER_02 (21:43):
That's what this platform's for.

SPEAKER_00 (21:44):
Amazing.
Wow.
So that and then that's a lot ofediting.
And how much editing do you haveto do?

SPEAKER_02 (21:50):
There's some editing.

SPEAKER_00 (21:51):
Right, like there has to be.
Yeah, like I'm thinking inrelation to photography, like if
I take 6,000 images, like and Ibring that down to 2,000, that's
that's a lot of discarded shit.
Like, what's your ratio?

SPEAKER_02 (22:03):
So I won't say I'll I'll I'll tell you this story.
I won't say who it was.
Great, but somebody was tellingme a story and I'm like, man,
this story's been going on forlike 25 minutes.
Like, I cannot put a 25 minutestory into this podcast.
Um, and as I go in and I'mediting, I realize that the
story is actually about threeminutes long.

(22:26):
So it's like, all right, like sothey just talked in circles for
whatever, which people do,that's fine.
Yeah, you know.
But uh I was like, I'm justgonna chop here and chop here.
And now it's done.
Let's move on.

SPEAKER_00 (22:41):
Okay.
Okay.
So then my next question aboutthat is because you've done this
for so long, um, do you noticein the moment ways now that you
can direct and bring theconversation back, right?
Because you're on, is it seasonthree or four now?

SPEAKER_02 (22:54):
Uh this is four.

SPEAKER_00 (22:55):
Oh my God.
Wow.
Oh, congratulations.
Yeah, thank you.
Dude, that's so nuts.
I mean, the amount of I and Iactually don't even know the
story about how you got startedinto this platform.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (23:07):
Was completely like I'm feeling not stuck, but like
maybe like disconnected fromlike the creative community in
Grand Rapids and even largerthan that.
You know, I've been working formyself for at the time for a
little over four years, or maybejust about four years, and I was
like, man, I fucking misspeople.

(23:29):
So it was partially a vehicle uhinitially to kind of uh get back
out into the scene and uh meetpeople and you know broaden my
contacts and uh make somefriends and all of this good
stuff.
Um and then also, you know, Iget the opportunity to sit down
with some like wildly talentedand creative people that, you

(23:52):
know, like there there's beensomething at least from every
conversation I've had where I'mlike, I'm gonna put that uh in
the utility belt and I'm gonnause that to make myself a better
creative.
So yeah, it's been yeah, it'sfucking great.

SPEAKER_00 (24:04):
It's so rewarding.
That's that's so so cool.
And I do, I I love that itreally is a community builder
because so much of us arecreating in vacuums.
Like we're we're talking toclients, but we're not talking
to other creatives.
And I mean, I think we're prettymuch at a place now that um the
idea of competition isn't whatit used to be.
No, like which is great.
I'm so glad it's like I couldcall up any photographer or

(24:27):
videographer just about in townand be like, you want to grab
coffee, and nothing would be offtime, like nothing would be off
the table uh that we can talkabout as far as work, which is
great.
But we still don't do it though.
That's the thing.
Like you need to make an effort.
So like it's great to have areason, like a like a podcast to
make it make it seem like it'suh there's there's uh it's

(24:50):
special.
It's something like worth that'sit.
Right.
I I feel like that was editorialwork for me.
Trying out new concepts, butalso collaborating with people.
And so working with localmodels, makeup artists,
stylists, you know, evenvideographers on fun, weird
conceptual stuff that we're allcraving was a perfect way to,

(25:13):
yeah, like strengthen yournetworks and know like if you
needed to tap someone for aprofessional thing, cool,
because you know how theyoperate, but also like you see
them pushing their boundaries atthe same time.
And there's a lot of trust inthat.

SPEAKER_02 (25:26):
Yeah, and there's a lot of energy in that.
And like, I don't know, it justkind of it just kind of gets you
when you see somebody else goingfor it, you know?

SPEAKER_00 (25:32):
It's so yeah, it's contagious.
It really is in the same waythat like listening to two
creatives talk, like it's it'sreally um inspiring.
And we need to do more of it,but I'll take it where I can get
it.
I love that.

SPEAKER_02 (25:43):
I don't care.
Cheers to that.

SPEAKER_00 (25:45):
Oh, fantastic.
Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 (25:48):
So that's good.
You know, one thing that Igenuinely love about you is that
you are very unapologeticallyyou.
Okay, and that's and that's oneof those things that like the
world and society tends to beatout of us as we as we grow up
and all that kind of stuff.
So how do you maintain such afirm grasp and confidence in

(26:09):
your identity?

SPEAKER_00 (26:10):
Wow.
That is such um okay, also thankyou for that observation because
it's so different on the otherside.
I suppose unapologeticallymyself, because I can't be
anyone else.
And yeah, uh, it was definitelyhard figuring that out,
especially as a kid all the wayup into my college years.
Um, but enough people have feltcomfortable in front of me that

(26:33):
makes me feel like, okay, no,being myself is the best route.
Uh a firm grasp requires a veryminimal grasp.
You've got to hold the pencil,but you can't hold it too
tightly, right?
Like you can't try too hard.
Like there, it's the paradox oftrying, right?
Like you can try a little bit,but you can't try too much.

(26:55):
You can't try at all.
You have to try a little, butyou can't not try.
I I'm totally botching that.

SPEAKER_02 (27:00):
But um No, you're making it sound as complicated
as it is.

SPEAKER_00 (27:03):
It really is.
It's so complicated.
Like anytime I feel like I'mgiving it too much, I gotta back
off.
And anytime I feel like I'm I'mnot trying enough, I just amp it
up a little bit.
But um, I think the thing I'velearned is uh don't grip
anything too tightly.
Like uh you can't take thingspersonally, especially it's one
thing to take things personallyat work, but especially when

(27:24):
you're collaborating withpeople, you also can't take
things personally.
Like everyone's coming from sucha different experience that like
if something doesn't work outthe way you want, that that's
fine.
It had nothing to do with you,right?
Like, so it gives me a lot ofgrace when uh there's either a
miscommunication or there's amisunderstanding, or creatively
worlds are not colliding.

SPEAKER_04 (27:45):
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (27:46):
So um yeah, just being open and empathetic is
really the best path I've foundthrough.
And if I don't understandsomething, it's the same thing
as just being honest and beinglike, I don't get that.
Tell me more.

SPEAKER_02 (27:58):
Because you're because you don't have such a
tight grip that you're allowingyourself to like a little wiggle
room.

SPEAKER_00 (28:02):
Yeah, yeah.
Admit when you don't knowsomething.
I think that's another thing.
We we're so conditioned to likeact like we know more than we
know.
And actually, no, like I I onlyget to learn when I ask
questions or say, like, oh, Idon't know what you're referring
to.
Tell me more.

SPEAKER_02 (28:17):
So I also found it kind of empowering to say, I'm
not the guy.

SPEAKER_00 (28:22):
Yeah.
Oh, I'm not the guy.
I know it's a really great placeto be in your career when you
can start like confidentlysaying that I don't say that I
say it with confidence.

SPEAKER_02 (28:34):
I'm saying, I mean, that sometimes that sucks, but
like because you wanted becauseyou want to step up, you want to
push yourself, but sometimessometimes you're not the guy.

SPEAKER_00 (28:43):
God, how often do you feel like that happens
though?

SPEAKER_02 (28:47):
Not infrequently.

SPEAKER_00 (28:48):
Not well, that's a backward, not infrequently.
So frequently.

unknown (28:53):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (28:57):
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
Did you find that saying thatwas better than just saying fake
it till you make it and put andpowering through?
Was that mainly it?
Like that was the boundary.
Yeah, maybe.
I think fake it to you make ithas been the way I've operated
since day one.
And now that I'm feeling theburnout, I'm like, okay, maybe
maybe I do need to start sayingI'm not the guy.

SPEAKER_02 (29:18):
You know, and it's after how many years of
experience now that it's likeyou've kind of earned the right.

SPEAKER_00 (29:23):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (29:23):
You know, I don't need to deal with this bullshit.

SPEAKER_00 (29:27):
Right, right.
Unless it's for this amount ofmoney.

SPEAKER_02 (29:30):
Exactly.
In which case I will deal withso much bullshit for the right
amount of money.

SPEAKER_00 (29:34):
Oh my God, I know.
It that is that is such a ahilarious catch of the whole of
the whole operation.
It's like, what am I willing todo?
It's just the amount of money.
Yeah, that's it.
Right.
Yeah.
I think luckily uh the creativework that I've shared, which is
mostly what I share socially,like the the stuff on my

(29:54):
Instagram, which has not beenupdated in a very long time,
even, but uh, most of the workthat people see are the creative
projects that were not paid.
And I think that has shown myaesthetic better than any paid
work that I could put out there.
So I'm lucky that most of thepeople that come to me already
know what I'm about.

SPEAKER_02 (30:13):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (30:13):
So I don't have to say that too much.

SPEAKER_02 (30:15):
Another thing that you've earned.

SPEAKER_00 (30:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I mean, in that sense, youknow, I paid for that because
that wasn't paid work, but itwas my time and energy and the
time and energy of the people Icollaborated with, which is
awesome.

SPEAKER_04 (30:27):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (30:27):
And you've and you've even spoken to some uh
collaborators of mine on thisshow, like Ellie Brown, um,
Lydia Vanhoven, Cook.

SPEAKER_02 (30:36):
I think, I think it's the it's the portraiture
that um I can almost I canalmost reach out and like feel
them.
So there's obviously like aconnection there between you and
your subject.
So what is that headspace looklike to pull it out of them?
And then what do you what do youhave to give as well?

SPEAKER_00 (30:54):
Oh, that's a really that's so fun.
Cause it I never think of itthat way.
Because in the moment you'rejust you're just doing your best
to be present and be reallyaware of where your subject is
at, you know, like uh when Ishot Kelly, Kelly was actually
one of the first like peoplethat hired me for portraits that
like I made an image that uh waslike a huge portfolio piece for

(31:18):
me for for the beginning of mycareer.
It was her with this egg in hermouth.

SPEAKER_02 (31:23):
I just saw that photo today.

SPEAKER_00 (31:25):
Yeah, that one, like there were there were uh there
was like a good couple of yearswhere that I was the egg
photographer.
They're like, oh, you did thatone.
But that was a completecollaboration.
And that's the coolest part Ithink about like I've done my
best work when I can take thepressure off myself a little bit
and know that it is totally acollaboration with the person

(31:45):
I'm I am shooting or the personI'm creating the image with.
So um, you know, she at the timeher her tagline was something
like creative writer and eggeater.
And so we were like, how can weplay with that?
Right.
And she's like, I'll doanything, like whatever you
think is gonna be cool.
So we actually made multipleimages that were kind of egg

(32:07):
inspired, either in like thecolor palette or she's like kind
of holding an egg very likerenaissance y.
But then the last one was like,Would you put a raw egg in your
mouth?
She's like, Hell yeah.
Um, but knowing how comfortableshe was, then then it's just
like knowing when to put the putthe foot on the gas a little
bit, I think is the thing.
And unless I know where theperson I'm working with is at,

(32:31):
then I I don't think I wouldfeel as confident to do that.
So really this uh a big strengthof mine is having that bit of
intuition or being able to likeuh tap in when someone's
uncomfortable.
It's pretty obvious to me, likeespecially when there's a camera
around.
You can tell when someone is Oh,I change immediately.
I do too.
I do too.

(32:51):
I am I I actually hate howuncomfortable I am in front of
the camera.
Like I'm like, I do this for aliving.
I should know better.
I should give the person withthe camera like a little bit
more grace.
And and I do, I feel like I'mgiving them nothing, you know.
I just clam up entirely.
So anyone who trusts me withthat, I I take great pride in
making sure that they feel goodabout it.

(33:12):
And so that that means a lot ofcommunication, a lot of back and
forth, and a lot of like, hey,can we try something?
Might not work, but if it does,how cool.
And um, usually that amount ofplay gets people out of their
heads.

SPEAKER_04 (33:27):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (33:27):
And it's just enough to make like some really cool
magic where you do, you feellike you're not looking at
someone posing for the camera,you look at someone like acting
or like creating an emotion.
And a lot of that I was justlucky to kind of fall upon.
And then it was really justthat's how it happens, right?
By doing right, yeah, right.
Like it wasn't something like Iwant to make an image that it

(33:48):
has impact.
It was like, holy shit, thisimage I just made had impact.
How do I do that again?

SPEAKER_02 (33:53):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (33:54):
And then just over 10 years.

SPEAKER_02 (33:56):
Do you find do you find that that process is
repeatable?
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (34:00):
And it's mainly just being present.
Like I can tell when I'm not init, and I can tell the work
suffers.
Like, I don't know if anyoneelse can tell the work suffers.
Like the work's fine, it hitsall the things it needs, but
like if I'm not fully in whatI'm doing, I feel like I can
easily miss the opportunity tocapture even a split second of a

(34:21):
candid or like really beautifulmoment.
Because it does, it takesfractions of a second to take an
image.
So if you're not tapped in andlike fully present, you could
miss it.
That's stressful.

SPEAKER_02 (34:34):
So are you thinking of the final image when you're
shooting?
So, for instance, are you likefully in the moment or are you
already thinking of the edit andthat kind of stuff as you go?
Because it's like, you know,it's a culmination of all of the
parts, right?
That like make the image what itis.

SPEAKER_00 (34:48):
Oh, that's great.
I think it's, I would say it's50-50.
Sometimes I show up and I'mlike, I don't know how this is
gonna look, but like we got tocapture it.
Like, I feel there's time isagainst us, so it's like I will
I'll worry about the outcome inpost.
Um, but then there's other timeswhere I come in and I maybe it's
because I have control over thelighting, and so I know exactly

(35:09):
how I want to edit it.
And the editing is part of thestorytelling, so I'm very
specific about knowing, like,oh, we need to shoot it this way
or you need to pose this way.
Um, but yeah, I think it's verysituational.
And it's that kind of stuff thatkeeps it fresh.
Because if it was a formula thatI just knew and had to turn on
and off, I I think, oh man, howmonotonous would that be?

SPEAKER_02 (35:31):
It's it's it's wild, dude, because like even so the
photos that you took for us,yeah.
Unlike anything else I've seenyou shoot, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 (35:38):
What am I doing?
How are you doing it?
I'm trying to keep it fresh, Iguess.
I mean, it's so easy to feelstagnant, right?
Or at least for me.
I mean, that's uh, you know,some people it's having multiple
creative outlets.
And I think for the first 10years of of my photo career, I
didn't allow myself any otheroutlet.
It was okay, let's let's dive inheadfirst, let's attack this.

(36:01):
You know, I don't have a degreein photo, and my peers are
either have been in thisindustry for a long time and are
and are established, or theyhave a degree in it.
So what I have to do is fullyimmerse myself.
So even my downtime fun projectswere photo related.
Like I was just a sponge oflike, what can I glean?
What can I learn?

(36:22):
What can I experience uh of thismechanical medium?
Like if I have one camera andone lens, what can I do with it?
And then if I have a the samecamera but a different lens,
what can I do with that?
And just there's so manymultitudes of possibilities
within that how can I not thinklike maybe this one lens that I

(36:43):
used for us would be the perfectway to make it feel like a
nostalgic, candid shot.
Yeah.
Way more so than if I was tryingto use my really clean
commercial lens.

SPEAKER_02 (36:53):
Right.
And then edit it to feel Yeah,because I've done that too.

SPEAKER_00 (36:56):
And I it never felt like it hit.
I mean, I can make a reallyclean, sharp digital photo look
a bit more analog, but you stillknow it's taken on a digital
camera at some level.

SPEAKER_02 (37:08):
The ones that you did for us took me right back to
my days in a band, right?
Like it it it felt like uh itfelt like a different time.
What what a cool fucking thingto have captured.
Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 (37:20):
Thank you.
I'm thank you for sharing, iswhat I mean.
Not like thank you for thecompliment, but thank you for
sharing because that is that wasthe goal.
That was really like I wantedit's a feeling, right?
Like when you're an image maker,it's the same, it's the same
with design.
Like you want to evoke afeeling, or at least that's what
how I take it.
Yeah, I guess like I mean, ofcourse, there's technical
aspects of design, but like youyou want to feel something.

(37:42):
You're you're you're uh you'resharing a visual dialogue to get
the message.
And so even if the you know theposes are a little sloppy or the
lighting is complete shit, likewhat is it as a whole?

SPEAKER_03 (37:55):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (37:56):
You can think of all these technical aspects that
make a photo, the lighting, thecolor, the composition, the
edit, the people, the motion,the action.
But like overall, the wholething has to read as one solid
thing.
So, like, how do you get to thatbig picture?
And it's just a lot of trial anderror.
And I don't always get it right,but um, I take a lot of photos.

(38:18):
So at least like out of 6,000,there might be at least a
hundred.

SPEAKER_02 (38:23):
So the play is so fucking important.

SPEAKER_00 (38:26):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (38:27):
And you get to do, you've been doing a lot of that
with your swimwear brand, right?
Yes.
Oh, let's talk about that.

SPEAKER_00 (38:33):
Cool.
Oh, yeah.
I haven't I haven't done muchtalking about it, and especially
not with my business partnerright next to me, too, which is
so fun.
I think that's one of the mostexciting elements of it is that
I'm doing something with someoneelse.
And I'm at a spot in my careerwhere I feel like I do have
enough to bring to the tablethat I feel like, okay, no, I
I'm I'm a valid member of thisgroup.

(38:55):
And she has such a really strongvisual sense, but it's so early
on in her career that it'sreally invigorating to watch.
Like her just create the coolestshit.
We're like, I had this idea, orI've got this thought, or check
out this sketch.
And it's just amazing to see allof these things like literally
evolve, like right before oureyes.

(39:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, so we've been doing it for Ithink like two years now, which
seems insane.
Uh, but we hope because we weactually launched last December,
so like nine months ago.
But that whole like year and ahalf of prototyping and testing
and like just getting oursinking our teeth into it was it
was really fun problem solvingin ways that I don't think

(39:40):
photography had been feelingsatisfying.
So it was great to show years,right?
Yeah.
I mean, I had I had kind offigured I'd played around enough
with photography that it wasn'tfeeling as fulfilling.
I think it was just burnout,really.
Like that's all it was.
I needed to shift gears to bringsome fresh air into the mix, but
uh yeah, it's been a really wildride.

(40:03):
And it wasn't one that either ofus originally were like, we want
to start a swimwear company.
It was like these opportunitiesfell in our lap, and it was
either like, well, let them passor grab them.
And we just decided to grab themand see where it went.
So it's been really cool.

SPEAKER_02 (40:19):
I think what makes your brand really cool, speaking
of identity, yeah, get into thatinto that ethos a little bit
because it's not just a swimwearbrand.
Yeah, like there's there'sthere's a little more grit and
like tooth to it.
Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 (40:31):
Yeah.
I mean, I think it just neededto be really satisfying to make
for me.
And so it couldn't just be aboutswimwear, right?
Like I I don't get to pretend tobe a graphic designer often.
So when I do, I gotta go reallyhard.
So of course, like I'm I'mtreating it as if it's getting
like a fine art uh like artiststatement every single time I

(40:53):
make something.
I'm like, Hannah, let me presentto you this concept.
But it it was, it was like thethat's what it took for me to
get my head around what itdeserved.
Um, and I think, you know, whatwe're seeing is that especially
when it comes to products, likepeople want to feel something,
people want to uh believe insomething, they want to feel

(41:13):
connected to who's making theirstuff.
And so sharing not only theprocess, but like the emotion
and the intention behind it wasso important.
And then also from like a visualaspect, making things that I
don't get to make or are alittle bit different than my
usual has been really fun.
Like that work, the visual workI feel is really deconstructed

(41:36):
compared to the commercial workI've done.
Some of that's intentional, someof it's unintentional.
Like, I'm just like this is allI can give right now.
Like, let's let's notoverproduce this, let's just get
it out.

SPEAKER_02 (41:47):
And it kind of preserves this sense of like
authenticity in it too, right?

SPEAKER_00 (41:51):
Exactly, right?
Like that's the buzzword that weboth like annoyingly have to
keep coming back to becauseauthenticity matters so much.
Like you can't, you can'toverproduce anything.
People see it, people are usedto it.
We're in the city.

SPEAKER_02 (42:04):
People can smell the bullshit, they know exactly
what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 (42:07):
Oh, and then trying to look bigger than we are,
right?
Like, I think that's been aninteresting aspect because the
few design jobs I've had forlike boutiques or other small
businesses in town, especially10 years ago or in the last 10
years, it was a good thing tolook bigger than you are.
It was a good thing to make itlook like you were in

(42:27):
competition with like J.
Crew or like these bigger,really established companies.
If I can make my visuals lookthat high-end, that was a plus.
People don't want that anymore.
So then it's like, okay, well,all these things that I learned
are no longer, they're notimportant.
And I need to be okay with justletting that go.
But then what is it?

(42:47):
Like, what is a deconstructed,grittier shot look like?
Or what does authenticity looklike if if production and high
production and intense like careto detail isn't necessarily the
goal anymore?
So yeah, it's been reallyfulfilling.

SPEAKER_02 (43:02):
We should say what it's called.

SPEAKER_00 (43:03):
Oh, yeah.
See, I'm terrible at this.
I hate promo promotion.
I'm no good at promotion.

SPEAKER_03 (43:09):
I'm here to push you.
It's okay.

SPEAKER_00 (43:11):
Thank you.
Uh the name is uh Saint Andro.
It's androgynous swimwear.
Um, body positive, extra smallthrough 5X, uh, currently made
in Los Angeles in ethicalfactories with sustainable
materials, recycled materials.
Um, and the the whole the wholething is small batch right now,
which is we're trying to besustainable.

(43:32):
We're trying to do all of thethe good things that are really
hard to do.

SPEAKER_02 (43:37):
Yeah.
I would imagine that thatreaches past this project and
goes into photography overall.
So how are you putting yourperson or are you putting your
personal beliefs and values andthings like that into your work?

SPEAKER_00 (43:52):
That's a really great question.
I mean, uh I don't, I'm notlarge enough, like I don't have
a studio or anything, or peopleunder my employee that like I
don't have a guidebook of like,let's turn the lights off, let's
like keep our energy cost low,anything like that.
But um keeping things ethical, Ithink that's just really the

(44:13):
word is like how can I be themost ethical?
Um and who knows where thatcomes from in me.
It could just be that like I wasa good Catholic kid growing up,
and then when I got rid of that,I was like, yeah, but I still
liked being a little virtuous.
Like, what can I do to feel likea good member of society?
And I think that just boils downto it.
So in in photography, um, Ithink ethical means more of the

(44:36):
human element for.
Me, it's like making sure peoplefeel comfortable and seen and
respected.
I need permission to shareimages, and rightfully so.
But I mean, even just you know,if someone comes to you with an
idea, you got to respect thatthat's that's it could be a
really sacred idea or concept oryou know, thing and they're

(44:56):
entrusting you to to uh make ithappen.
Or like, you know, the brandsthat you hitch your horse to are
really important.
Like yeah, you don't yeah, Ifeel like that would be just
terrifying to find out that likeI don't know, you did work for
someone that is so like uhpolarizingly uh aligned.

SPEAKER_02 (45:19):
Dude, I I so okay, I'll tell you this.
Yeah, um I think it was like twoyears ago or so I found out
maybe less.
But I was uh doing some workwith this place and didn't do my
due diligence and um kind offound out who they were.

(45:42):
And immediately I was like,Yeah, I'm out.
Yeah, like I'm done.
I can't I know it's consistentmoney, I know, but like I can't
I'm not gonna be able to fuckingsleep.

SPEAKER_00 (45:54):
Yeah, yeah.
And I think it sucks too,because like part of me is like,
okay, I want to treat everyonefairly.
And in some ways, like I mighthave a client who doesn't
believe the same things as me,but them having an interaction
with me might open their mind,right?
Like there's that line too oflike, how much are you willing?
You know, uh the idea of usbeing so polarized, like, sucks.

(46:16):
There are certain people I willnot work for, especially when it
means making visuals to upholdtheir beliefs.

SPEAKER_03 (46:21):
God, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 (46:23):
But then, like, what do you do for the clients that
their brand has nothing to dowith their beliefs behind closed
doors?
You know how they feel.
That's another like stickysituation.

SPEAKER_02 (46:33):
Honestly, I'm I'm at a spot right now where a brand
is a brand.
A brand isn't fucking real,right?
It's not real, it's this cutething that we made up to sell
stuff.

SPEAKER_00 (46:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (46:43):
I mean, it's very real.
Please continue to pay me forthat.
But um It's not a person.

SPEAKER_00 (46:51):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (46:51):
It doesn't matter how much work your creative team
has done to present you in acertain way.
If you're a fucking assholebehind the doors, then fuck you.
I don't want to work with you.

SPEAKER_00 (47:02):
Yeah.
And again, I won't use specificexamples either, but there's
like there's companies I workfor where the people I'm working
with on set have the exact sameopinions as me.
But then I'm hearing storiesabout the higher-ups and how
they spend the money or how theytreat people or how, and it's
just like, who am I making thisfor?
And also if if I, you know, if Ihave a hard line in the sand

(47:26):
about it, then I might not getany work.
Like, especially because it is abrand or a company.
Or like there's always somethingthat I'm not gonna like.

SPEAKER_02 (47:35):
Okay, or maybe you don't get any work, or maybe you
start pulling in the rightpeople.

SPEAKER_00 (47:39):
Totally.
And you're right about that.
There's I mean, again, it's thatlike for how much, right?

SPEAKER_02 (47:44):
Like the Honestly, there's no amount of money that
anybody could give me to work ona fucking Donald Trump campaign.

SPEAKER_00 (47:50):
Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (47:51):
You want to go topic hopping?

SPEAKER_00 (47:52):
Oh, I I'm so excited.
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (47:55):
When you're gone, what do you hope people say
about you?
Nothing.

SPEAKER_00 (47:59):
Nothing really like matters at the end.
The people that know me, I'm youknow, I hope they're a little
sad, but like, you know, I hopethey live their life and keep
going.

SPEAKER_02 (48:06):
And if you know they have a photo of mine, they put
it up on a wall, but eh, like Ihope my people are inconsolably
inconsolably devastated.

SPEAKER_00 (48:18):
That's great.

SPEAKER_02 (48:19):
That's all I want is I love that.

SPEAKER_00 (48:21):
I like would you would you are would you like
plan your own funeral before yougo?
Just really set it up.

SPEAKER_02 (48:29):
Maybe.

SPEAKER_00 (48:30):
Yeah, right.
I mean, I think that's fun.
I would almost I'd be more aptto do that than be concerned
about what people think of meafter I'm gone.

SPEAKER_02 (48:38):
Creativity requires openness.

SPEAKER_00 (48:43):
Which sounds a little granola.
It's either openness orpatience.
Or both.
I don't like openness anymore.
That one seems I don't thinkthat fits my brand.
Um, creativity requires youknow, I really like topic
hopping when I'm listening tothe podcast, but I am not fast
at these.

(49:04):
Uh pass.
If I think of a better word.

SPEAKER_02 (49:08):
All right.
Uh, what would your last mealbe?

SPEAKER_00 (49:11):
Okay, so I cannot process dairy and a lot of other
things that I don't feel likelisting off because no one gives
a shit.
But I think like my last mealwould just be every single thing
I've been avoiding for the last10 years.
I mean, it would it would be alot of dairy.
I'd maybe eat some meat, uh, butlike a lot of dairy, just the

(49:31):
stinkiest cheeses and like fucknow.
I'm like forgetting all thethings.
But like, yeah, I mean, evenpizza, like a real piece of
pizza, not a vegan pizza, butlike a real pizza.

SPEAKER_02 (49:41):
That's like half pizza.

SPEAKER_00 (49:42):
Yeah, it is.
It's pe it's like it's pizza.

SPEAKER_02 (49:46):
Like it's not it's like a it's like it's like
pizza's cousin.

SPEAKER_00 (49:49):
Yeah, yeah.
It's better than no pizza.

SPEAKER_02 (49:51):
And not like the cool cousin.

SPEAKER_00 (49:53):
No, I don't know if I could choose a thing.
I think that's my answer.

SPEAKER_02 (49:56):
Just go for it.

SPEAKER_00 (49:57):
I would eat until I die.
That is, that is truly it.
I'd be like, I'm gonna go now,so I'm gonna eat everything.

SPEAKER_02 (50:04):
What's the best advice you've ever received?

SPEAKER_00 (50:07):
I think I think instead it's just getting advice
often.
I need like constant dailyadvice.
Like talking to people andgetting that free advice is is
the best advice, is constantadvice.

SPEAKER_02 (50:20):
What about the worst advice?

SPEAKER_00 (50:21):
Ooh, the worst advice.
I don't know.
I never listen.
That's why I don't know the bestadvice.

SPEAKER_02 (50:28):
Which is apparent by your first answer.

SPEAKER_00 (50:31):
I know.
This is terrible.
I feel like I'm failing topic.

SPEAKER_02 (50:35):
You're doing very bad.

SPEAKER_00 (50:36):
I'm I am.
I I can feel it, and I reallywant to do better.
Um, I'm probably gonna think ofsome really good answers at like
2 a.m.
tonight.

SPEAKER_02 (50:47):
I just get voice memos from you.
Can you plug this in?

SPEAKER_00 (50:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Exactly.
Oh, fuck.

SPEAKER_02 (50:51):
Um, do you believe in ghosts?

SPEAKER_00 (50:53):
Oh I really want to believe in ghosts.
Okay, all right, all right.
This is I'm gonna do my best notto spend an hour on this topic.
But um, one of my all-timefavorite classes at Kendall was
uh it was like, I don't evenknow the name of it, but it was
it was like this extra electivecourse for grad students, and I
got to take it as an undergrad,which meant I didn't have to do
any of the work that the otherstudents did, but it was

(51:15):
basically a class about the artof blank, and you got to choose
what the topic was, but it wasanything that isn't traditional
art.
So every class was one of thegrad students giving a
presentation on another quoteunquote art form that isn't
something we would consider art.
Well, I had to do an honoraryone, it just wasn't for like the

(51:37):
final grade.

SPEAKER_03 (51:38):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (51:39):
Mine was the art of paranormal investigation.
And it was fucking great.
Because I want to believe.
That's the thing.
Like, I I believe and I don'tbelieve.
I think it's charming that it'sso important historically as
humans that we've like we'veconstantly battled those
thoughts and conversations.
And even like in like thehistory of photography, we've

(52:01):
really played with is this amedium, is this a tool for
capturing that stuff?
And it's still kind of not.
But um, but just like knowingthat there's so much about that,
uh it's such a fun world to livein.
Like, I kind of hope there'sghosts.
I feel like there's a hard, likeOuija board, absolutely not.
I remember there was a priestthat came into one of our

(52:22):
catechism classes and was like,I had to exercise a young girl
who played with a Ouija board.
Like, don't mess with thatstuff.
It's real.

SPEAKER_02 (52:30):
Yeah, I don't think the Ouija board is something to
fuck with.

SPEAKER_00 (52:32):
Right.
Yeah.
We did put it on a t-shirt forthe podcast, but have you like
does it like do you get likeknocks in the closet when it's
hanging up?
Like you notice anything?
Is there like bad luck around itwhen you wear it?
No, it feels fine.
Amazing.
Great.
You like you found the hack.
Yeah, because you don't have thelike the the uh planchette.
Yeah.

(52:53):
Thank you.
Yes.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (52:54):
No, I watch a lot of ghost shows.

SPEAKER_00 (52:56):
Me too.
I would say, like, some peoplelike watching Housewives or you
know, one of those other realityshows.
For me, it's ghost shows.
Yeah, that's my number onesoother.
Dude, we're gonna cheers ofthat.
I know, right?
Like, especially when I'm alone.
If I've got work to do, put thaton.
That brings my heart level wayup, and I can crush whatever
task is on my list.

SPEAKER_02 (53:15):
Leanne, what does the perfect day look like for
you?

SPEAKER_00 (53:17):
I think it's a day that isn't planned, but by the
end of it, you go, holy fuck,that was such a good day.

SPEAKER_02 (53:24):
Let's go to the other side of that.
Great.
Do you have any regrets?

SPEAKER_00 (53:30):
I think any of my regrets that I can that like
come to mind immediately arejust based on me not being able
to put up a boundary soonenough.
So like saying no, right?
Like any, there's not even agood example other than just
like figuring it out as a youthand realizing I didn't need to

(53:53):
say yes to something that didnot make me feel good, which is
like so much easier now.
I feel like people areunderstanding the power of no a
lot more than they were even adecade ago, or at least that's
how it seems to me.
Like I see 20-something yearolds who have no problem saying
no now, and it's reallyrefreshing.

SPEAKER_03 (54:10):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (54:11):
But yeah, any regret I have is like, I should have
trusted my gut and not done thatthing.
But I don't have any goodstories coming up.
All right, well, cool.
That's perfect for a podcast.
I know.

SPEAKER_02 (54:25):
I know.
Okay, last question I have foryou.

SPEAKER_00 (54:28):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (54:29):
Are you okay?

SPEAKER_00 (54:30):
Yeah, as far as okay, I'm perfectly okay.
And I'm so okay with being okay.
I think that's just like thereally the best word to start
and end your day with.
Because anything more is a gift,and anything less it's a fucking
bummer.
It's a fucking bummer.
And at least you know, likeyou're right in the middle.

(54:51):
So great.
Really great interviewing.
This is this has been so fun.
Before we go, where can peoplefind you?
Oh man, um couple local coffeeshops.
Uh, but if you're taking ifyou're talking digitally, um my
website, I'm terrible atInstagram.

(55:13):
You can find my work there, butyou will not find me responding
to you at any quick uh yeah,pass.
Um, yeah, so I guess it wouldjust be my online on my website.
And um yeah, if you want to grabcoffee, I I love grabbing coffee
in Grand Rapids or abroad.
Say the website.
Yeah, right.
Okay, see, this is this is Ineed direction.

(55:36):
Uh Leancobb.com, which is allphoto now, and who knows what
it'll be as the art world keepsintriguing me.

SPEAKER_02 (55:45):
I love it.
Yeah.
Dude, thank you for this.

SPEAKER_00 (55:48):
Oh no, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 (55:49):
Thank you for bringing wine.

SPEAKER_00 (55:50):
Oh, my pleasure.
I'm so glad you liked it.

SPEAKER_02 (55:53):
Let that be a staple for future guests.

SPEAKER_00 (55:56):
Hell yes.
Just raising the bar foreveryone after me.
It's great.
Awesome.
All right, let's go out of here.
Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_05 (56:07):
I can't even make them go away.

SPEAKER_02 (56:11):
Bad Idea Social Club is an independent podcast made
possible by Merch Dales,Reviews, and Listener Support.
It is created and hosted by me,graphic designer and McCall, and
co-hosted by photographer JillMadison.