July 28, 2026 • 47 mins
Part of our REWIND summer series, we’re revisiting eight conversations that crawled into our brains and hearts, nested, and just live there now. This time, it’s "Rae Lang: Outsider" from Season 5.
Rae Lang (artist, Woosah Outfitters & Outside Coffee Co.) talks with Aaron McCall about carving a life that’s slower, wilder, and closer to the woods. They get into Rae’s evolution as an artist and business owner, the decision to close her Grand Rapids shop, raising kids with muddy feet, and how success looks different than it used to. It’s about art, identity, and what it really means to stop outrunning yourself.
Keep up with Rae Lang:
spreadingthewoosah.com
IG: @woosahoutfitters
Creative Mornings Grand Rapids
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Merchants & Makers
West Michigan artists, makers, and small businesses. Shop local with food trucks and live music.
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This episode is supported by:
Creative Mornings Grand Rapids
Merchants & Makers
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Writer/Producer/Editor/Host:
Aaron McCall
aaronmccall.net
IG: @aaron_mccall
——
Co-Host/Sidekick/Photographer:
Joe Matteson
themattesons.co
IG: @joe_dustin
——
Music:
"Noises" by Mike Mains & The Branches
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Support the Podcast:
Buy Merch
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Follow Bad Idea Social Club:
badideasocialclub.com
IG: @badideasocialclub
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:37):
I don't know.
As a kid, I had three brothers,so I loved uh mowing the lawn,
taking care of my neighbor'speach trees, power washing the
deck.
I guess I've always been gay.
unknown (00:53):
I can't see Megan go away.
SPEAKER_04 (01:05):
Hey everybody, welcome back to Bad Idea Social
Club Rewind.
My name is Aaron McCall.
And I'm Joe Madison.
This time we're gonna go backand and revisit uh my
conversation with Ray Lang.
It's called Outsider.
It's uh from season five,episode seven.
Um, Ray is the artist behindWooza Outfitters and Outside
Coffee.
SPEAKER_03 (01:26):
Yep.
SPEAKER_04 (01:26):
Uh both of which made a hell of a mark here in
Grand Rapids.
Um and getting her on thepodcast felt like such a big
deal to me.
Like she's the first artist Inoticed when I moved to Grand
Rapids.
This is gonna make me sound likea fucking tool bag, but like she
was a bit on on like a pedestalfor me.
Okay.
And then she walked in.
It was like we had known eachother forever.
(01:46):
Yeah.
And it like it all went away.
SPEAKER_03 (01:48):
Yeah, it's just evident a really good person
established a really greatbusiness, which is awesome to
see.
SPEAKER_04 (01:54):
Well, and like as we kept talking, I was like, man,
we we actually like there's alot overlapping here.
Like shit.
Like we we went to the same highschool on the other side of the
state.
SPEAKER_03 (02:04):
It's crazy, isn't it?
Yeah, something in the water outthere, huh?
Dude, dude, we we graduated sixyears apart, but still.
At this point of Ray's life, theconversation was interesting to
me because it's a really bigpivoting point of redesigning
some things, of like moving andselling off.
(02:27):
Anyways, um, but it had mereally aware.
I know, sorry.
It really had me thinking a lotabout like my own reinvention
and how I tend to be asconsistent as possible, but when
I do reinvent, they tend to beabrupt and and pretty intense.
Like right now, I'm very much atlike a work-life balance
redesign.
(02:48):
It's I'm not gonna be at thestudio from you know 11 p.m.
till four in the morninganymore.
It's not a thing, it's nothappening, you know?
It's like I need fast words.
Yeah, I know.
I'm doing good.
I mean, people are getting theirstuff later than they used to,
but like it's taking longer.
But I am doing good.
So I think reinvention is issuch an important part of the
(03:09):
creative process.
SPEAKER_04 (03:11):
Well, and Ray also posed this idea of joy as an act
of resistance.
And uh, dude, when she saidthat, yeah, that stuck, that has
stuck with me, and I've thoughtabout that literally almost
every day since we recorded thisthing.
Yeah.
And we talked about carving outyour own path and and uh giving
yourself permission to bend andadapt to life, like what you
(03:33):
were just talking about.
Yeah, but again, like withoutsacrificing your sense of joy
and creativity.
SPEAKER_03 (03:40):
That is such an encouraging thing that Ray
gifted to us on that day.
Fucking love it.
Before we dive in, don't forgetto follow wherever you're
listening, leave a five-starreview, and don't forget to tell
your friends.
SPEAKER_04 (03:51):
Also, this thing runs off of merch sales,
listener support, and reviews.
Help us out with that stuff.
We'll love you forever.
And um, here's our conversationwith Ray Lang, Outsider, season
five, episode seven.
SPEAKER_02 (04:06):
Do I have to wear these?
SPEAKER_04 (04:07):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (04:08):
Do I hear myself when I wear them?
SPEAKER_04 (04:09):
You do.
SPEAKER_02 (04:10):
I can't do it.
SPEAKER_04 (04:11):
Okay, I'm gonna listen and make sure it's good.
SPEAKER_02 (04:13):
Okay, you wear them.
Nice.
SPEAKER_04 (04:15):
I also want to uh clarify your pronouns because
you put both they, them, andshe, her.
SPEAKER_02 (04:20):
Yeah, I really thank you for asking.
I don't really care.
Like a she, they, I guess nothe, yeah.
Right.
unknown (04:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:29):
Yeah, not easily offended, not like we don't have
to get into it.
Yeah.
Awesome, love that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (04:35):
So I I feel like you've probably been asked this
a billion times.
SPEAKER_02 (04:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (04:40):
What the hell does wusa mean?
SPEAKER_02 (04:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's a meditative word thathelps you relax when you say it
out loud.
Have you ever heard of itbefore?
SPEAKER_01 (04:48):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (04:48):
Okay, so it's like an inhale and an exhale, like,
ooza, like that.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Oh.
So in college, I used to say itall the time.
I don't know where I picked itup from, but it was just like a
slang word I'd say to myfriends, like, hey man, just
boosa, you know?
And so in college, making artand going to nature were the two
things that gave me that feelingof like being at ease and
(05:09):
centered.
So I started signing on my workWusa.
Because it just gave me thatfeeling.
Yeah.
I love that.
SPEAKER_04 (05:14):
So it's so it's kind of a reminder to just kind of
like take a breath and get yourhead out of your ass a little
bit.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (05:20):
Yes, which I still need that reminder.
Like, even I've been doing thisuh what 2012 was when I founded
it, and I still need thatreminder.
SPEAKER_04 (05:28):
Yeah, yeah.
To just well, you're humanthough.
Like, what what how do you dealwhen it kind of gets away from
you?
SPEAKER_02 (05:34):
Yeah, honestly, going to nature, I feel like it
can be it can sound so clicheand corny, like just go to the
woods, man.
But like that is the place thatmakes me feel the most at ease,
like just in nature.
SPEAKER_04 (05:44):
What is it about that, do you think?
SPEAKER_02 (05:46):
Um man, nature doesn't have to try, it just is.
And it gives you permission tojust be whatever you are,
whatever you're feeling, kind oflike lean into that and just
notice what already is.
Like I'm someone who's alwayschasing the next thing.
Like I love to tackle a bigdream or a big goal.
And so I think nature reminds meto slow down and notice what
(06:09):
already is around me, likewhat's naturally beautiful.
SPEAKER_04 (06:13):
Have you always kind of felt that pull?
SPEAKER_02 (06:15):
Um yes, yes and no.
I don't know.
Yes, okay.
So I wasn't like raised with afamily that's like, we're going
backpacking, like, you know, getyour gear, we're gonna do all
this crazy stuff.
Um, but I was raised to go forhikes, be outside, um, grew up
on a lake, like tubing.
Just my parents were alwayslike, let's see who can knock
the kids the highest in the airoff the tube, that kind of vibe.
(06:37):
Like I have three brothers, so Iwas outside a lot, you know,
just playing like that growingup.
Um, my aunt and uncle bought acottage on Lake Michigan up near
the bridge, Trails End Bay.
And that space holds like areally special, special spot for
me.
SPEAKER_04 (06:51):
Is that is that because that's where you guys
went, or was it, or was there,was there a moment or something?
Is there a what is it?
SPEAKER_02 (06:58):
So when I okay, I love to like dive really deep
into things like let's go.
Like, what is it about that?
You know, for me, I grew upmoving a lot.
So I moved back and forthbetween my mom's house and my
dad's house.
And I think I went to a total oflike 13 schools.
SPEAKER_01 (07:12):
Oh shit.
SPEAKER_02 (07:12):
And so that space remained the same, like that
cottage, the way it smelt, likearriving there in that view.
Like I can even I can feel rightnow the feeling I get when I
turn the corner and you see theview of the big lake.
You know, you're just like, as akid, you're stoked.
As an adult, you're stoked, andI still love going to the garage
there and just like you know,taking a big whiff.
(07:33):
It still smells like windsurfingsales and mountain bikes and
gets you stoked.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (07:38):
So it was kind of a kind of really like your only
constant.
SPEAKER_02 (07:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Which is interesting because mylife right now is going through
a huge change.
We just announced like a monthago, we're closing our Grand
Rapids shop after 10 years ofhaving a storefront here, which
is like every day I'm stilllike, wow, we're really doing
it, you know?
SPEAKER_01 (07:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:58):
Because on paper, it's the dream and it's been the
dream, but dreams change.
And I think I've realized thatthe phase of life I'm in now,
it's pulling me to nature.
It's pulling me to the lakeshore to like raise my kids
feral, have my own chickens.
You know?
I love that.
Yeah.
So it's like saying goodbye tothe city, the community I've
known, where I've started thisand the unknown is like both
(08:21):
exciting and a little scary.
SPEAKER_04 (08:23):
Uh, how does it weigh?
SPEAKER_02 (08:24):
Um, mostly exciting, but it depends on the day.
You know, there's days I wake upwhere I'm just like, you know,
ah, what's gonna happen?
And then there's days I wake upwhere I'm like, oh man, I wonder
what's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_04 (08:37):
Yeah, yeah.
So so let's back up a little bitbecause I I know your work,
yeah, and and I feel the impact.
Yeah, but this is the firstopportunity that we've ever had
to kind of sit down and mix itup.
SPEAKER_01 (08:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (08:50):
So I I want to get to know more about Ray as a
person.
I want to know about what kindof kid you were, I want to know
where you've been.
So you give me the origin story?
SPEAKER_02 (09:01):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
We'll see.
We'll see how uh deep into mypsyche we can dive here.
Um, yeah, I grew up in Milford,so east side of the state.
Have you ever been over there?
SPEAKER_04 (09:10):
I grew up in Wixham.
SPEAKER_02 (09:11):
No way.
So my mom lived in South Lyon,and my dad was Milford, and so
I'd bounce well, Commerce, youknow, Commerce Township.
SPEAKER_04 (09:18):
That's where my parents live.
SPEAKER_02 (09:19):
Lake Sherwood?
SPEAKER_04 (09:20):
Uh no, they live in some fucking okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (09:23):
There's like a thousand lakes over there.
SPEAKER_04 (09:25):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (09:25):
Yeah.
So I grew up over there.
Um, I don't know, as a kid I hadthree brothers.
So I loved uh mowing the lawn,taking care of my neighbors'
peach trees, power washing thedeck.
I guess I've always been gay.
You know, like I came out when Iwas 15, um, which was pretty
big.
And I transferred schools atthat time too.
(09:45):
Again, like I'm always thinkingof the next thing.
Like I was ready to be done withhigh school and in college.
When I was in college, I startedmy business and was ready to
graduate and just run it.
You know, so I see this patternin my life where I'm just
definitely driven by likewhatever I'm whatever's next.
So I'm wanting to like kind oftake a beat and slow down,
anyways.
I'm getting way off path fromlittle little ray, but yeah,
(10:09):
yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (10:10):
Was it Milford High School?
Did you go to Milford HighSchool?
SPEAKER_02 (10:12):
Uh well I graduated from Lakeland.
So it's like the arrival.
Is that where you went?
SPEAKER_04 (10:16):
Yeah, I graduated from Lakeland High School.
SPEAKER_02 (10:18):
What year?
SPEAKER_04 (10:18):
2003?
SPEAKER_02 (10:19):
Okay, I was 09.
Wild.
That is wild.
My brothers, my older brotherswere 07, so you probably missed
each other.
SPEAKER_04 (10:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (10:26):
Well, maybe.
SPEAKER_04 (10:27):
That's wild.
SPEAKER_02 (10:28):
Yeah, that is.
What are the ads?
Yeah.
That's so weird.
I don't know what to do now.
Yeah.
I'm like thrown off.
Should we go visit our parentstogether?
Should we go home?
SPEAKER_04 (10:39):
So, did I hear you say a minute ago that you you
started WUSA while you were incollege?
SPEAKER_02 (10:43):
Yeah, yeah.
So I was going to Kendall.
Actually, Kendall was my thirdcollege I went to.
Took me a while to get there.
Um, I don't know if you want todive into that at all.
We could, we could, all right.
So I went to um Saginaw Valleyfirst.
I got a scholarship to go there,become a nurse.
Long story short, my parentsforgot to like sign the
acceptance thing for it.
I should take responsibility.
(11:04):
I was also 18, but whatever.
And so I didn't know, I didn'tget the scholarship.
So when we arrived there on dayone, they were like, Yeah, you
didn't accept it, so we had togive it to someone else.
So that was a big bummer, but Istill went there for a year for
nursing.
And while I was there, Irealized like, ah man, nursing's
not for me because I can't seelike like blood and stuff
without wanting to faint.
So I'm like, ah, something else,you know.
(11:25):
So then I transferred to Centralto join the ROTC, which is
pretty left field for me.
I can't imagine myself in thearmy now, but at the time I was
like job security.
SPEAKER_05 (11:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (11:34):
Because growing up, I've always loved art, um, spent
all my free time just staying upall night at my drawing table
and coloring with pastels.
But I was like, well, how couldI make a career out of it?
That's kind of what the adultsin your life always bring up.
Well, what are you gonna do withit, you know?
Um, so then finally, before Isigned my life away to the army,
I was like, well, I should justat least try art, right?
Yeah.
So then I transferred toKendall, and that's what brought
(11:55):
me to Grand Rapids.
SPEAKER_04 (11:57):
Can you pinpoint kind of the moment that like you
felt the connection between artand nature?
SPEAKER_02 (12:02):
No, there's not a specific moment.
Like I remember, I guess growingup, I've always I used to draw
still life's of flowers.
So always drawn to the beauty ofnature, I guess, even at like a
really young age.
But um yeah, just going outsideand then bringing that
inspiration inside to thestudio, super organic.
SPEAKER_04 (12:22):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, because I feel like I feellike the colors and and textures
and stuff you use, like it islike it's organic and it feels
intentional.
SPEAKER_01 (12:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (12:31):
Um but I think that's you, right?
Like I think that's yourperspective, your experiences,
your vulnerability, your voiceshowing itself in your work.
SPEAKER_02 (12:44):
Oh, that's cool to know that that stuff comes
through because sometimes youcarve something and it's like,
you know, it's waves and trees,and like cool, but there's so
much emotion behind that that Idon't think can be felt.
Well, I guess it can be.
You're saying it can be.
So it's nice to know.
Yeah, there's a lot of energybehind woodcut printmaking too
that I love.
Um, so when I went to Kendall,let me back up to that again.
(13:07):
When I went to Kendall, um, Itransferred in still feeling
like, well, what am I gonna doto make a living off of like
creativity?
And so my aunt Julie, who's beena huge role model in my life,
was like, Well, you know, ifyou're wanting a career that
feels pretty solid, you could gointo industrial design.
Have you heard of that?
SPEAKER_01 (13:24):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (13:25):
Okay.
I was like, all right, I'll trythat because I come from a
family of engineers.
So I was like, sweet, this fits.
And so I was in that program andit's like you're you're
designing things to scale.
It's all like measurements,you're learning rhino and CAD
and all this stuff, and it kindof hurt my brain.
Like it wasn't like, oh, this isthis is fun and playful.
So then after school, I'd gohome to make art to just like
unplug, and that's when Istarted Wussaw.
(13:46):
So it was like a natural way forme to like tap into something
that felt organic.
And so then finally I realized,well, this is all I really want
to do.
Like, I'm already selling onEtsy, doing these pop-up like
markets.
So why don't I just go all in?
And so then I transferred intoprintmaking.
And then that's when I carved myfirst woodcut.
And when I've carved my firstwoodcut, it was like what I had
been the art I'd been drawing inmy brain all these years was was
(14:09):
a woodcut.
So when I carved it, I was like,oh my god, that's my medium.
Yeah, this is like I found it, Ifound it.
Yeah, so it's never gotten oldstill.
SPEAKER_04 (14:16):
So then when you carve into a block when you when
you print, is it a is it aconscious thing to put those
kind of feelings, those, thoseexperiences in your voice into
the work, or is it somethingthat just kind of happens?
SPEAKER_02 (14:28):
I feel like it's magic.
It just happens.
Yeah, because I'll look back ona print and I'm like, oh my god,
what a metaphor for what I wasfeeling at that time.
And you can see it inretrospect, but in the moment,
you're just feeling.
SPEAKER_01 (14:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:40):
And it's showing up in the work.
I even like the words that I'llcarve with some pieces, I don't
think too much about it in themoment, but then later when I
reflect on it, I'm like, ofcourse, that's what was on my
mind.
SPEAKER_04 (14:51):
Do you ever go back and kind of like revisit those
moments?
SPEAKER_02 (14:54):
And oh yeah, I can look at any piece of art that
I've made and remember exactlywhat I was going through in my
life or where I was.
That's incredible.
Yeah.
You know what blows my mind?
Some people don't have, I justlearned this.
They can't see their thoughts.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, okay, if I say picture ared apple, can you can you
picture a red apple?
SPEAKER_04 (15:12):
I've got a red apple.
SPEAKER_02 (15:13):
Is it pretty vibrant?
Yeah.
Is it can you see like the waterdripping down the apple?
SPEAKER_04 (15:18):
Yeah, I can see the shadows, I can see all of it.
SPEAKER_02 (15:20):
Can you imagine like cutting it and it falls in half?
Same.
Like super, like I can stare ata wall and like and like draw a
picture and then like kind oferase it and like change it, you
know what I mean?
And in design in my head, andnot everyone can do that.
Doesn't that blow your mind?
SPEAKER_04 (15:34):
That does blow my mind.
SPEAKER_02 (15:35):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (15:35):
My uh Well, what the hell do they do?
SPEAKER_02 (15:37):
My friend, she's my hairdresser, she can't see
anything.
Nothing comes to mind.
SPEAKER_04 (15:41):
Really?
unknown (15:42):
What?
SPEAKER_02 (15:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (15:44):
You know, I've also heard that like some people, and
I don't know if you're this wayor not, they they like even when
like you think to yourself, likeI hear words.
SPEAKER_01 (15:51):
Yeah, right?
SPEAKER_04 (15:52):
Like I hear like like I'm talking to myself.
Some people don't.
SPEAKER_02 (15:55):
Oh yeah.
I can't wrap my head aroundthat.
SPEAKER_04 (15:57):
Yeah, I don't understand that at all.
SPEAKER_02 (15:59):
Always thinking.
It's like a dog.
Unless I'm thinking aboutthinking, then I'm like, all
right, let's meditate.
Even then, I'm like, ah, cut itout.
There's a thought.
SPEAKER_04 (16:08):
So so kind of going back to your artistic voice, was
was that something that you hadto develop, or was that just
kind of always there and youjust kind of had to let it out?
SPEAKER_02 (16:18):
Yeah, I feel like my voice has always been there.
I've always been um a prettysensitive person, deeply feeling
like tapped into my feelings.
Um, so I don't think it's beenhard to find that voice or like
the things that I care about.
Um, I think style has changed.
I look back at my pieces when Ivery first started, and I can
(16:39):
see what I was trying toachieve, but I'm like, oh man,
like I wasn't there at all, youknow?
So it takes years to developyour style and grow in that way.
Yeah.
I can see how that's changed.
SPEAKER_04 (16:51):
So then looking back, like in what in what ways
are you kind of the same artist?
In what ways are you justcompletely different?
SPEAKER_02 (16:58):
That's a good question, too.
I think that the feeling I getfrom carving and creating hasn't
changed.
Like it lights me up.
If I could stay up all night andcarve, I would.
And I used to, but now I havekids.
unknown (17:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:11):
So my practices had to change around that.
Um, I think the things that Iwant to make art about and speak
to have to do with what unitesall of us.
And a lot of times what's toughfor me is there's a lot of like
heavy and ugly in the world,especially right now.
SPEAKER_00 (17:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:30):
And I can get lost in that because I do feel things
so deeply.
So sometimes I don't let myselfgo too far down a road that
could lead to like activism,right?
If if it's healthy, or it couldlead to just totally taking over
your thoughts and days.
And you know, so I think keepinga healthy balance of finding joy
(17:51):
in connection with people, evenin dark times, is super
important.
And I think art can be like avery quick reminder of that.
Yeah to snap someone back into aheadspace of connection and
love.
SPEAKER_04 (18:05):
That's awesome.
SPEAKER_02 (18:07):
And so does making it, you know, like being in that
space yourself, makingsomething.
SPEAKER_04 (18:12):
What do you get what do you get more out of?
Do you get more out of like theprocess of making it, or do you
get more out of kind of sharingit?
SPEAKER_02 (18:18):
Oh, that's a good question for where I'm at right
now because making it is myfavorite part.
I love carving.
I love just like, oh my gosh,like a hot cup of coffee, good
tunes, and I'm carving awoodcut.
Boom.
Like it's perfect.
It's all you need.
It's all I need.
Windows open, birds chirping,plus, plus points, you know.
(18:38):
But um, in the store lately,since we're closing, we're we're
like waiting for the property tosell.
Lots of unknowns.
Don't know when it will sell,don't know when we're moving.
Um, so I'm in the store everyday with my wife.
It's either me or her, orsometimes both of us.
And so I'm plugged back into thecommunity in a way that I
haven't been in like five years,because we opened a second store
out in Sagatok Douglas.
(18:58):
We've had Outside Coffee Co.
It grew.
It turned into this really bigthing.
And so I was able to have mystudio above the shop in Grand
Rapids and mostly be up there,which was great because it I
could just dive into art andcreativity, take on freelance
projects and like grow, right?
But it totally removed me fromthis thing that I didn't realize
fed my soul so much, which islike having genuine connection
(19:21):
with people that just walk inthe store and they're so kind,
you know?
Like there's people coming inthe store right now who are so
genuinely authentically stokedfor me and what's next, and they
don't even know me.
You know, like it just itreminds me of the like the deep
love that we naturally have foreach other.
SPEAKER_04 (19:40):
Well, I kind of I kind of get that feeling, right?
Like I kind of get because A,you kind of have a space that it
it just says come in with yourarms open.
Yeah, but then also I get thething where people feel like
they know you, right?
Because when I first moved toGrand Rapids in probably I think
it was maybe 2015, yeah, yourwork was like the first artist
(20:02):
that I like could go around townand recognize.
SPEAKER_01 (20:05):
Oh, that's cool.
SPEAKER_04 (20:05):
Like this being the first time we've ever sat down
and talked, yeah, like I've hada connection with your work for
years.
SPEAKER_02 (20:12):
That's that's so it's so wild to wrap my head
around that.
You know, I tend to not letmyself like I move on from
things so fast, I don't letmyself absorb in the the things
I should celebrate.
It's again back to the thingthat I'm moving so fast.
Like you saying that is amazing.
Like, that's so cool.
We just we're just now meetingand in but you feel like you've
(20:33):
known me.
Yeah, you know, like it's it'sreally profound to think about
how art connects people evenwithout them knowing they're
connected, and yet here we areconnecting and we went to the
same high school.
Like I still can't, yeah, I'mstill trying to wrap my head
around that.
SPEAKER_04 (20:48):
That's fucking crazy.
SPEAKER_02 (20:49):
Yeah, that's wild.
SPEAKER_04 (20:50):
I um you mentioned the coffee shop.
SPEAKER_02 (20:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (20:53):
I'm not gonna harp on you about taking it away from
me.
SPEAKER_02 (20:55):
Yeah, it's been it's been an emotional experience.
SPEAKER_04 (20:59):
Well, what what put you in the coffee space in the
first place?
SPEAKER_02 (21:02):
Oh, so I had a store on Division for three years.
So right after I graduated fromKendall, I wanted to open a
store and didn't really have anymoney.
And Division was prettyaffordable for rent, so I opened
a space there and I had mystudio in the store.
It was really like perfect,organic, slow pace.
And I realized quickly that thecommunity was just as equally
(21:23):
important to me as art.
So, like the people that wouldcome gather there and just form
friendships.
I was like, this is so cool.
I want to give people a space togather and do that that has
nothing to do with like thepressures of shopping and buying
something.
And so a coffee shop felt likethe natural thing to create.
Um, and I tend to not thinkabout like the it'll be so hard
(21:44):
because of XYZ until I'm in it.
Yeah.
And then you just kind of solvefor that while you're in that
moment.
Um, because I didn't knowanything about coffee, what it
took to like open a shop.
And me and my wife truly justlearned in the moment as we
built it, thinking that it wasgonna be very small and simple.
SPEAKER_04 (22:01):
It I feel like it blew up pretty quick.
SPEAKER_02 (22:03):
Yeah, way quicker than we.
I mean, I never thought it wouldblow up.
So it was like, holy smokes,there's a line to the gate every
day.
Yeah, and we had like a tinylittle camper we converted at
first.
Do you remember that?
I do, yeah, and that was parkedin the corner, and yeah.
So a year later we replaced thatwith the food truck that we had
for the past six years.
So that was a quick like, oh mygosh, this is not working.
(22:26):
We need to upgrade to somethingbigger.
SPEAKER_04 (22:28):
God, that's rad.
So so then you've moved that toDouglas.
Are you moving the studio andthe shop to Douglas as well?
SPEAKER_02 (22:33):
Well, so three years ago we opened a second location
out in Douglas, it's on the wayto The beach.
Um, so you you wouldn't pass usunless you're going to the
beach, which is really coolbecause yeah, you're just like,
Oh, what is that?
You know, and then you come findout it's like a cute little
coffee shop with nature art andstuff, hammocks and dogs, and
um, so yeah, we opened thatthree years ago and put the
(22:54):
coffee shop in it right away.
And this time we put it in thestore, so it's like plumbed and
everything is in the shop, butyou order at the windows outside
still, because I loved theconcept of like, hey, grab your
coffee and go slow down outside,connect with nature, connect
with friends.
You know, I think being outsidewith coffee and a friend
encourages you to slow down evenmore because there's no pressure
(23:16):
when you're in a coffee shopthat you feel that's like, well,
I've been at this table for 20minutes.
Should I go get another drink oram I here too long?
You know?
SPEAKER_04 (23:24):
Yeah, God.
Well, for what it's worth, Imiss it.
SPEAKER_02 (23:26):
Yeah, yeah.
It was a great, it was a greatjourney that we went on, and it
we accomplished what we set outto do.
It was really, really hard toclose it.
I'll say that.
SPEAKER_04 (23:36):
Oh, I'd imagine so, because like it didn't feel like
a uh like a whatever thing.
Like it was like a it was like ahub.
SPEAKER_02 (23:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (23:44):
You know?
SPEAKER_02 (23:44):
Yeah.
We thought we were gonna be ableto.
It's funny in retrospect, I cansee why things happened now, but
in the moment, you just keepasking, like, why?
Why is this h like?
I believe in like the universeand that there's divine timing
and like things happen as theyshould, doors open when they
should or close.
So when doors close and youdon't know why, you're like, uh,
there's a part of me that takesthat on.
(24:06):
Like, did I, did I not?
And this is not healthy.
Like, did I not like manifestthat enough?
You know what I mean?
Like, did I not, were mythought, was I too this or to
that?
But now in retrospect, it'slike, no, of course not.
Nobody's in control that much.
We think we are in the moment,you know, of what's happening.
So, yeah, anyways, all that tosay, we thought we were going to
(24:26):
build a building out there andthe quotes came in too high, and
then we thought we were gonnaput it in the shop with like
service windows.
And once we looked at likearchitect fees, historic, going
in front of the commission,presenting it, maybe not it even
passing because it's a historicbuilding, and then building it
out.
We just had to face it that likethe chapter's done.
SPEAKER_04 (24:44):
Yeah, just to know it's just done.
SPEAKER_02 (24:45):
We can't afford to, you know, do these permanent
solutions, and it's time for itto be done.
SPEAKER_04 (24:50):
Well, I love that.
Well, I've got some friends thatlive literally like two blocks
away from your shop in Douglas.
SPEAKER_02 (24:56):
So I'm not I'll be okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, come see us out there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (25:03):
Um I mean, so yeah, so so you have kind of created
this like full-on multifacetedbrand out of your create.
Is it is it fair to call it abrand?
SPEAKER_02 (25:11):
Is that yeah, yeah, yeah.
I know it's a weird word, isn'tit?
Yeah, yeah, it is it is a brand.
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (25:18):
So uh you've got your you've got your studio, the
store, coffee shop, thiscommunity.
Um, like you've built somethingsignificant that people connect
with, and that's that's a lot ofweight.
SPEAKER_01 (25:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (25:32):
How do you stay sane, balancing running a
business, making artwork,nurturing the community around
you, yeah, raising a family.
SPEAKER_02 (25:42):
Yes.
Well, the obvious answer isnature, right?
Like going to nature andconnecting and finding myself
there.
And um I think the truth of itis when you have kids, when I
had kids, I'll speak for myself,it really shows you your
capacity.
You know, you can't be more thanone place at once.
So you have to like look at yourlife and and what really
(26:02):
matters.
And it's very obvious when youhave kids.
You're like, these little peoplein my family is what matters the
most, like above everything.
And so it kind of helps frame inwhere you want to go, I guess.
Um, and so that's I feel likeI'm I'm always speaking in such
an abstract way.
SPEAKER_04 (26:21):
That's okay, lay it on me.
SPEAKER_02 (26:23):
Yeah, okay.
I think having kids was like thething that has propelled me to
like slow down and like zoom wayout from my life and look down
on it and see what's working andwhat's not and where I really
want to be.
And and like, how can I show upin this world as an artist?
Does it have to look the way itdoes now?
Can I find success in other waysthat are more freeing for me?
(26:45):
So, like for me, that looks likelike my dream right now is a
farmhouse on like three to 10acres with a barn that's my
studio in the backyard andchickens, and my kids are
running wild, you know, andmaybe we have events, people
show up and get to check out thestudio space.
And that's so different fromwhat I would have viewed success
as 10 years ago when I firstopened my store.
(27:07):
So I think like as you get olderand you get these different like
successes under your belt, Idon't know, you get to like try
things on and be like, whatfeels like it fits and what what
have I outgrown?
SPEAKER_04 (27:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (27:18):
Yeah.
I don't remember what you Idon't remember what you even
asked me originally or thatanswers the question.
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (27:25):
I am curious though, has has having kids impacted
your relationship withcreativity at all?
SPEAKER_02 (27:32):
Yeah, it's been hard not to have the time um to just
kind of be in the studio, youknow, to like see where the day
takes you.
It has to be more structuredwhen you have kids.
Like you're, you know, I'm I hadto change immediately from I'm
in the studio from you know 11p.m.
to 4 a.m.
to I show up at nine and I leaveto be home by 4:30 to get my
(27:54):
kids.
Yeah, you know, so you can'treally be like, oh, creativity
is striking right now.
Let's go dive into it.
You have to kind of table itlike tomorrow I'll I'll circle
back.
SPEAKER_04 (28:04):
Are they exposed to the creative process?
SPEAKER_02 (28:06):
Yeah.
So we have um, I'll bringwoodcuts home and carve.
Um and then we have a littlelike makeshift ceramic studio in
our basement right now.
Because my wife, she's alwaysran the businesses, like she's a
finance degree, so she's verylike left-brained, loves a good
spreadsheet.
And I'm like, I don't even wantto see one.
Um, so she hasn't had the timeto like dive into her
creativity.
(28:27):
And so now that we'resimplifying things a bit, um,
she's diving into it.
And so she's downstairs uhmaking stuff on this little
wheel that was given to us, butfrom a friend, it's from an old
library, and we just realizedthat it's for kids.
She's like, that's why I canonly make these tiny little
things because the wheel is likethis big and the um the bat or
whatever.
And then we have a kiln that wasgiven to us, but we haven't
(28:49):
wired it up yet because we thinkwe're moving, so we don't want
to like go through all that.
Um, but yeah, so they're aroundto see the process.
Actually, last night when I wasputting my three-year-old to
bed, he's so sweet.
He's another like deep feelingsoul.
He grabbed my face, he's like,Mommy, I love looking at your
art just out of nowhere.
I'm like, oh my god.
And he's like, and I love mama'spottery.
Like, I love you.
(29:10):
He's so sweet.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (29:12):
Like, and I'm a puddle.
SPEAKER_02 (29:13):
Yeah, yes.
I'm like, fine, we can stay up alittle later.
SPEAKER_04 (29:17):
And you can watch one episode of The Sopranos.
SPEAKER_02 (29:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (29:23):
God, something that I love too about your work is
that like it doesn't, it doesn'thave to be deep, right?
I mean, it does get deep, but itdoesn't have to be.
And and and I love that nomedium is lesser than another,
right?
Like you're putting you're doingprints, t-shirts, hats,
stickers, all of this stuff.
SPEAKER_02 (29:41):
Like, yeah.
That's one thing that artschool, I feel like it was
pretty like uh there was like ajuxtaposition between like fine
art, you know, going to artschool, and then like an awesome
t-shirt from your favoriteartist.
And why is that not worthy ofthe same appreciation as the
actual like fine art print?
Um, I think making thingsaccessible to everyone, things
(30:02):
that they connect with, athree-dollar sticker, and then
like the original woodcut isreally cool because it's really
again back to like connection,like you like that thing, you
too can enjoy that thing.
It doesn't have to be framed andlike put on a pedestal to be
worthy, you know.
I think it's interesting toothat people value time so much
with art.
Like a main question I get ishow long did that take you to
(30:23):
carve?
SPEAKER_04 (30:24):
You know, but 35 years.
SPEAKER_02 (30:25):
Yeah, yeah.
I don't know if it like whatdifference does it make, you
know?
SPEAKER_05 (30:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (30:31):
Um, I guess that kind of circuit that like
connects back to like a mug, isit more valuable than the
original painting?
I don't know, it's up to you todecide.
SPEAKER_04 (30:40):
I don't know.
I feel like when you buy aprint, like you're making like a
huge commitment, right?
Like you're deciding that it hasto go somewhere in your home,
you have to frame it, you haveto put it on the wall, like it's
take like it's it's a hugecommitment.
Yeah, but if you can still likeinteract and experience that
piece by wearing the t-shirt,yeah, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02 (30:59):
And if it reminds you of a place or a time, you
know, my favorite thing is onvacation, you're traveling
somewhere new, and you find likethe local spot, you know, the
spot that you walk in, you'relike, if I lived here, this
would be my spot.
Yeah, and it's just all it takesis one person there to like
connect with you, and you'relike, Oh yeah, this this is the
best coffee shop.
This is where it's at.
You know, and you grab a stickerfrom there and you come home,
and every time you look at thatsticker, it takes you back to
(31:20):
that that trip.
SPEAKER_04 (31:22):
Um you play guitar in a former life.
unknown (31:27):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (31:28):
In a former life, I think.
Is that a metaphor?
Did you actually use to play theguitar?
No, I actually did.
SPEAKER_04 (31:32):
Okay, I don't know if like your previous life No, I
I you know I tried to be in aband for a long time.
Okay, and all that turned out tobe was just like uh jamming with
your aisle of debt.
SPEAKER_02 (31:43):
Oh yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (31:45):
You know, it's just like everything costs a million
dollars, and you know, you maketen dollars over here to to
travel four hours away and goplay somewhere.
SPEAKER_01 (31:53):
And yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (31:55):
Yeah, although I fucking miss it.
SPEAKER_01 (31:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (31:57):
I do, because I don't know, there's like and I
guess I do kind of still get thesame feeling out of, you know,
when somebody buys a print orsomething like that that when
when somebody's singing backlike words that you wrote.
SPEAKER_02 (32:08):
Yeah, that's gotta feel like that's fucking cool.
Yeah, yeah, because you know youimpacted them.
SPEAKER_04 (32:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (32:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (32:14):
Do you get that out of uh out of your work at all?
SPEAKER_02 (32:17):
Oh, every time I see a sticker on someone's car when
I'm driving on the highway, orlike at the store I see a Who
Sap T on someone.
Yeah, I always feel embarrassedto like I don't know what to
say.
Like, oh hey, I'll be like, hey,cool shirt, sometimes, and
they'll they'll be like, Thanks,you know, or sometimes we'll be
like, Oh, are you did you didyou make it?
You know, but it's so weird tobe like, thanks, I made it, you
(32:38):
know, like that's why but I wantthem to know, like, hey, we're
buds, you know?
Yeah, like I like your shirt,you like it, I made it.
SPEAKER_04 (32:45):
Yeah, I I was just at the Hall Street Bakery two
days ago.
Yeah.
And I was I was wearing one ofmy own shirts because I'm the
guy that's in a band that wearshis own band shirt.
SPEAKER_02 (32:54):
You got to.
SPEAKER_04 (32:55):
Whatever.
And uh the uh the guy at thecash register was like, Oh my
god, I love your shirt.
Where'd you get it?
And I was like, in my head, Iwas like, I don't, I don't want
to have this conversation.
SPEAKER_02 (33:06):
Yes, yes, that happened to me just now at the
Hall Street Baker before Iwalked down here.
Yeah, this woman was like, Oh, Ilike your hat.
Is it um did you get itrecently?
And I was like, Oh, it it justcame in today, which was like a
weird way to respond.
I'm like, I made it, and theyjust came in today at Wusa.
Have you been in the store?
Like, I'm like, I don't know howto.
She's like, Oh, my son loves it.
He lives in Colorado, he's gonnacome by and buy one.
(33:27):
Yeah, so cool.
SPEAKER_04 (33:29):
Yeah, I love it.
And it and it never gets old,right?
Like, yeah, it just doesn't getold.
SPEAKER_02 (33:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (33:34):
Um, is there anything else we should talk
about before we go topichopping?
SPEAKER_02 (33:38):
Oh man.
No, I'm up for whatever.
SPEAKER_04 (33:41):
Um, when you're gone, yeah, what do you hope
people say about you?
SPEAKER_02 (33:46):
I hope people say that I was kind.
Like, that's the first word thatcomes to mind.
That I was kind and yeah.
Is that enough?
SPEAKER_04 (33:55):
That's yeah.
That's great.
Yeah.
Finish the thought.
SPEAKER_02 (33:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (33:58):
Creativity requires openness.
SPEAKER_02 (34:02):
Um I think you can force a lot of things.
Like, we've all been in a spacewhere you have to create
something for a client, andyou're like, oh man, I gotta
come up with five concepts.
I've got one, you know, and youkeep pushing yourself, and maybe
you open up a door that way intomore.
But when you're open and you'renot expecting or putting
constrictions around what itlooks like and when it happens,
(34:24):
and you're just open to whateverhappens.
That's when it flows.
You know, you connect tosomething that's different
outside of you, and it justpours out of you.
I think that's true creativity.
It's just like, hey man, I'mjust open.
I'm just like the vehicle forthis.
SPEAKER_04 (34:39):
How long did it take you to kind of open that door?
SPEAKER_02 (34:41):
Oh, I mean, it closes all the time.
unknown (34:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (34:44):
So you still get stuck?
SPEAKER_02 (34:45):
Yeah, I think stress closes it, you know, when you're
stressed about things, and um,that's when you get like really
tense and uptight, and you'relike holding on to things so
tightly as a metaphor.
Uh not actually holdingsomething.
When you can loosen up and likelet things flow and you're more
connected, I think that's whenagain you it's always there.
Like your creativity is alwaysthere.
You just like kind of lose touchwith it sometimes, and then you
(35:08):
tap back in.
I think like the obvious thingsthey feel obvious to me, like
slowing down and doing likebreath work, meditation, yoga,
nature, like all these thingsthat help you just like kind of
align.
I love going to Reiki and likehaving that kind of therapy
done.
Um, also a big fan of talktherapy.
Love to talk about my feelings,so I do that.
(35:29):
Yeah.
Um, so I think there's a lot ofways to kind of open that back
up.
SPEAKER_04 (35:34):
What would your last meal be?
SPEAKER_02 (35:36):
Like really good, like classic Fettigini Alfredo.
Because then I don't have toworry about the tummy ache
after.
It's my favorite food, but everytime I eat it, I'm like, I'm too
old for this.
I can't do this again.
SPEAKER_04 (35:51):
My body's changed.
Yeah.
unknown (35:53):
I don't like it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (35:55):
Um, what's the best or worst advice that you've ever
received?
SPEAKER_02 (35:59):
Best or worst.
Okay, we'll go with best.
So my Aunt Julie growing up toldme like, just go for it all the
time.
She's the artist in our family.
Everyone else is like engineers.
She's like, whatever you'remeant to be, like, it's going to
work out as long as you'refollowing that path.
So if this feels like what youwant to do, you should do it.
And so those words, my wholelife kind of would come back
(36:22):
into my head whenever I wasveering off the path and
encouraged me to get back on.
Like, no, I'm an artist.
Like, this is what I want to do.
I think all it takes is like oneperson in your life who really
believes in you and your passionto encourage you to pursue it.
You know, like as soon as youstart to feel those doubts, that
voice being like, no, it's allgonna work out if it's meant to
(36:43):
be.
SPEAKER_04 (36:44):
She sounds like a pretty significant influence.
SPEAKER_02 (36:47):
Yeah, she's awesome.
She does really cool like brandidentity work.
So her company is um This IsWorthwhile.
And I mean, I see the connectiontalking out loud now, but like
she likes to work with companieswho do work that's worthwhile.
So like doing good, you know,yeah, in in the world.
Um, but she's helped me a lotwith Wusau over the years, like
refining the brand identity.
(37:07):
And she helped me create a brandbook that helps us train our
team and come back to our whyand like what our mission
statement, what we're all about.
We're this, we're not that, thatkind of stuff.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (37:17):
What a what a cool person to just have around.
SPEAKER_02 (37:19):
Oh, she's great.
She's I could just talk to herfor days.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (37:23):
Uh, what's a what's a small everyday thing that
brings you joy?
SPEAKER_02 (37:28):
Um obvious answer is my kids.
But if you put that one aside,um, biking.
I love biking.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (37:36):
Like mountain biking.
What are we talking here?
SPEAKER_02 (37:40):
Well, my favorite kind of biking is like uh a nice
trail through the woods, nothingtoo sketchy.
I don't have to do any jumps ordad trees going too fast, you
know, like just a nice littlescenic.
I like to go really fast though,so that's fun.
Um, but even biking to work,total game changer.
SPEAKER_05 (37:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (37:58):
If you bike to work versus drive, you just have such
a better day if you bike towork.
SPEAKER_04 (38:03):
A few years ago, uh, I've got some friends who love
going biking in the woods andstuff.
And yeah, and they're like, Whydon't you come with us?
Try it out.
And I'm like, okay, all right.
You know, you know, my buddy'slike, uh, I've got a I got a
bike you can borrow.
It's gonna be a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_01 (38:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (38:20):
And they're like, okay, I've picked out a beginner
kind of trail.
And um, if that was a beginnertrail, then uh I don't know.
I I couldn't tell you.
I couldn't tell you.
But I was like, this is fuckingterrifying.
SPEAKER_02 (38:35):
Did you have to like go over a like a tree bridge,
like a log?
Yeah.
Yeah, but like my heart alwaysis erasing.
Yes, yeah.
That stuff, I just maybe if Iwas a kid, like I learned how to
do it, then I'd be lessintimidated by it now.
Or maybe it's just not in in thecards for me.
But yeah, same.
I'm like, no, I'm bailing, I'mgoing around that for sure.
SPEAKER_04 (38:53):
And then on top of it, like the mosquitoes that day
were out of control.
Yeah, and I'm just sweating, I'mterrified, I'm getting eaten up,
and I'm just like, all right,biking's not my thing.
Yeah, it's too many things,biking's not my thing.
SPEAKER_02 (39:04):
Yeah, I'm doing my first bike race in April.
The Barry Roubaix, is that howyou say it?
SPEAKER_04 (39:09):
I don't know.
Where's it?
SPEAKER_02 (39:10):
Founder's beer, Rubet.
Roubaix?
Roubais.
SPEAKER_04 (39:13):
Uh Rubaeus.
SPEAKER_02 (39:14):
Beri Rubaius?
Someone will correct us.
It's either Roubaix or Rubaius.
It's in Hastings, though.
It actually goes by my AuntJulie's house.
Like the track, but it's um, Ithink it's I know no facts about
this other than it's like the uhbiggest gravel road race in the
country, question mark.
Someone will correct us on thattoo.
But people come in from all overthe country to like race this
(39:34):
race.
And originally I was like, Iwill train and I'm gonna, I'm
gonna win this delusional.
I'm not I'm not winninganything, but I'm very
competitive and I have nottrained at all.
So we'll see how it goes.
Yeah.
I've just been biking casually.
Um why would you do it?
Uh I love okay.
You know what?
I do have an answer for that.
(39:55):
I love type two fun.
Have you heard of this before?
Okay, so there's like type onefun, which is, and I'm probably
gonna say these backwards, butthere's type one, uh, which is
it's fun while you're doing it,and it's fun when you look back
on it.
Type two fun is it's not thatfun while you're doing it, but
it's really fun when you lookback on it.
And then type three fun is it'snot fun when you're doing it,
(40:16):
and it's not fun when you lookback on it.
And I feel like I do like typethree fun sometimes too.
So like picking a challengethat's kind of absurd and then
seeing if you can do it is verysatisfying.
SPEAKER_04 (40:26):
Awesome.
Love that.
SPEAKER_02 (40:27):
Yeah, sweet.
SPEAKER_04 (40:28):
Um do you have any regrets?
SPEAKER_02 (40:30):
I mean, my first answer that comes to mind is no.
SPEAKER_04 (40:33):
I love the idea of not having any regrets, right?
Like I feel like that's such asuch a positive, um, optimistic
way of treating yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (40:44):
Right, yeah.
Because I mean, I do believethat everything happens as it
should.
So even if you regret something,you learned a lesson from that
or it led you closer to whereyou're meant to be.
Or I I honestly can't think of aregret, but of course there's
things that I wish in retrospectI could have done differently.
Yeah.
With like the experience I havenow or something like that.
SPEAKER_04 (41:05):
What would you change?
SPEAKER_02 (41:06):
I don't know, because then you look at the
circumstances and you're like, Ireally couldn't do it
differently.
Basically, like I I like youshow up the best you can in
those moments with what youhave.
So I don't think I have regrets.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (41:18):
I love that.
SPEAKER_02 (41:19):
Yeah.
Do you?
unknown (41:20):
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (41:24):
Yeah?
SPEAKER_01 (41:25):
Yeah.
A lot.
Oh you got a list?
SPEAKER_04 (41:27):
Uh I I bet if I sat down I could yeah, I could come
up with a list.
Yeah.
So like one thing for me is thatlike I've always I don't know, I
think it's maybe only been overthe last few years where I've
kind of embraced more optimism.
Yeah.
Like I used to think it wasreally cool to be negative and
really cool to uh like shit onother people to kind of you know
(41:48):
build myself because I was ashithead, you know what I mean?
Because I was insecure and allof that stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (41:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (41:54):
So I you know, you kind of look back at that person
and you're like, I fucking hatethat guy.
SPEAKER_02 (41:59):
Yeah.
But I wonder what kind ofempathy that's given you, you
know?
SPEAKER_04 (42:03):
I think probably a lot.
SPEAKER_02 (42:04):
Yeah.
Like it shaped who you are now.
Of course, you wish you didn'tlike cause pain, like bring pain
to other people.
But like none of us are perfect.
We've all done shitheads before.
I think right now with theinternet, we're easy to like
jump down each other's throatsand like cancel everyone, judge
everyone.
No one has the full story onthings, and like, oh, it's
(42:25):
exhausting.
It's exhausting.
SPEAKER_04 (42:27):
I try so hard to like not get caught up in the
Instagram of it all.
Yeah.
Right.
I try so hard not to get caughtup in the in the news and stuff,
but it's like every time I turnaround, I feel like I'm just
being bitch slapped.
SPEAKER_02 (42:39):
Yeah.
So it is hard right now to askyourself like, I want to be
informed and I want to show upand make an impact positively,
but I also need to take care ofmy my like peace of mind.
Yeah.
Where do you draw that line?
SPEAKER_04 (42:53):
I feel like for me it's getting harder.
SPEAKER_02 (42:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (42:57):
You know, because I I think like the the longer
things go and the shittierthings get, it's like the more
that I realize that I don'tactually have uh say or control
in anything.
SPEAKER_02 (43:10):
Exactly.
Yeah.
And that letting go is likefreeing and scary.
SPEAKER_04 (43:15):
Yeah, and from my perspective, seemingly
impossible.
SPEAKER_02 (43:18):
Yeah.
I wish I had an answer, youknow, like how to get through
this time together.
But it always comes back tolove.
Like, if you really can itsounds so corny.
I realize the things I say thatsound so corny, but I truly
believe it.
Like, like the lovingrelationships in your life, the
joy that like it's so importantright now that we find joy.
SPEAKER_05 (43:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (43:40):
Yeah, it's so easy to be like, how why do I get to
um experience joy when labelanything anything happening
right now?
Pick one thing out of the hat,right?
When these people aren't, orthese people are suffering, or
this, these rights are beingtaken away.
But it's it is an act of likeresistance to have joy during
times like this, and it fuels usto be stronger and carry on
(44:02):
together.
SPEAKER_04 (44:03):
I I am kind of in love with the idea of of joy as
an act of resistance.
Yeah, that just like you justchange something in my brain.
SPEAKER_02 (44:10):
I think you're naturally a joyful person.
You laugh, you're I try, yeah,yeah.
Yeah, you you light up, youknow?
It's contagious.
SPEAKER_04 (44:18):
Good.
SPEAKER_02 (44:19):
Yeah.
Good.
Thank you.
unknown (44:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (44:21):
Uh last question I have for you.
SPEAKER_02 (44:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (44:23):
Are you okay?
SPEAKER_02 (44:25):
Yeah.
Oh my god, that's so wild youasked me that.
Just gonna go right to it, getright to my root core fear for
everybody listening.
The thing I always come back tois is everything okay?
Is everything gonna be okay?
And I've been doing this therapylately that's um family systems
therapy.
I don't know if you've heard ofit.
(44:46):
No.
You essentially, not to get toodeep, but you talk to your inner
child, like you meet differentparts of yourself.
And interesting.
You talk to that part of youthat's coming up, and you show
up as the adult for that part ofyou that they needed at that
time.
So you get to talk to thatversion of yourself and say,
everything's gonna be okay.
(45:06):
And it's super healing becauseit's not you in this moment
that's wondering if you're okay.
It's a part of you that's beingtriggered by something around
you that's you know, and ittakes over if you're not aware
of it and you think it's all ofyou.
Anyway, so yeah, everything'sokay.
I'm okay.
SPEAKER_04 (45:22):
Are you are you seeing a difference in yourself
through that?
SPEAKER_02 (45:25):
Oh my gosh, yes.
It was my first session was likeso profound.
I felt like I was carrying thatpart of me around with me for
the week.
This like little likesix-year-old Ray.
It was super healing.
SPEAKER_04 (45:40):
Yeah, God, I love it.
Um, before we go, where canpeople find you?
SPEAKER_02 (45:45):
Right now, I don't know when this airs, but I'm in
Grand Rapids in the shop.
Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,Saturday.
Um, but after that, I'll be outby the lake shore once we move.
Um, Douglas is where our otherstore is.
That's at 450 Center Street.
Um, we're across from the rootbeer barrel.
I don't know if you've seen it.
SPEAKER_04 (46:04):
Oh, I know the root beer.
SPEAKER_02 (46:05):
Okay, yeah.
So you'll know when you see it.
And then um, I don't know wheremy studio will be or if it will
be like something I can sharewith people, or if it's gonna be
too far in my backyard that it'sweird to have people come back.
Like I have no clue what thefuture holds, but um I'll be out
there hopefully this summer.
SPEAKER_04 (46:21):
Instagram website, anything like that?
SPEAKER_02 (46:23):
Oh, that too, other than just physically finding me.
Um, yeah, Instagram is WoosaOutfitters, and then our website
is woosaoutfitters.com.
SPEAKER_04 (46:31):
Killer.
SPEAKER_02 (46:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (46:32):
Ray, thank you.
Yeah, this is a fucking blast.
SPEAKER_02 (46:34):
This was fun.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, yeah, let's get out ofhere.
All right, let's go to HallStreet.
SPEAKER_04 (46:47):
Bad Idea Social Club is an independent podcast made
possible by merch sales,reviews, and listener support.
It is created and hosted by me,graphic designer and the call,
and co-hosted by photographerGil Madison.
Music is noises by Mike Matonthe branches.
Get Bad Idea Social Clubwherever you dig your podcast.
I don't know.
As a kid, I had three brothers,so I loved uh mowing the lawn,
taking care of my neighbor'speach trees, power washing the
deck.
I guess I've always been gay.
unknown (00:53):
I can't see Megan go away.
SPEAKER_04 (01:05):
Hey everybody, welcome back to Bad Idea Social
Club Rewind.
My name is Aaron McCall.
And I'm Joe Madison.
This time we're gonna go backand and revisit uh my
conversation with Ray Lang.
It's called Outsider.
It's uh from season five,episode seven.
Um, Ray is the artist behindWooza Outfitters and Outside
Coffee.
SPEAKER_03 (01:26):
Yep.
SPEAKER_04 (01:26):
Uh both of which made a hell of a mark here in
Grand Rapids.
Um and getting her on thepodcast felt like such a big
deal to me.
Like she's the first artist Inoticed when I moved to Grand
Rapids.
This is gonna make me sound likea fucking tool bag, but like she
was a bit on on like a pedestalfor me.
Okay.
And then she walked in.
It was like we had known eachother forever.
(01:46):
Yeah.
And it like it all went away.
SPEAKER_03 (01:48):
Yeah, it's just evident a really good person
established a really greatbusiness, which is awesome to
see.
SPEAKER_04 (01:54):
Well, and like as we kept talking, I was like, man,
we we actually like there's alot overlapping here.
Like shit.
Like we we went to the same highschool on the other side of the
state.
SPEAKER_03 (02:04):
It's crazy, isn't it?
Yeah, something in the water outthere, huh?
Dude, dude, we we graduated sixyears apart, but still.
At this point of Ray's life, theconversation was interesting to
me because it's a really bigpivoting point of redesigning
some things, of like moving andselling off.
(02:27):
Anyways, um, but it had mereally aware.
I know, sorry.
It really had me thinking a lotabout like my own reinvention
and how I tend to be asconsistent as possible, but when
I do reinvent, they tend to beabrupt and and pretty intense.
Like right now, I'm very much atlike a work-life balance
redesign.
(02:48):
It's I'm not gonna be at thestudio from you know 11 p.m.
till four in the morninganymore.
It's not a thing, it's nothappening, you know?
It's like I need fast words.
Yeah, I know.
I'm doing good.
I mean, people are getting theirstuff later than they used to,
but like it's taking longer.
But I am doing good.
So I think reinvention is issuch an important part of the
(03:09):
creative process.
SPEAKER_04 (03:11):
Well, and Ray also posed this idea of joy as an act
of resistance.
And uh, dude, when she saidthat, yeah, that stuck, that has
stuck with me, and I've thoughtabout that literally almost
every day since we recorded thisthing.
Yeah.
And we talked about carving outyour own path and and uh giving
yourself permission to bend andadapt to life, like what you
(03:33):
were just talking about.
Yeah, but again, like withoutsacrificing your sense of joy
and creativity.
SPEAKER_03 (03:40):
That is such an encouraging thing that Ray
gifted to us on that day.
Fucking love it.
Before we dive in, don't forgetto follow wherever you're
listening, leave a five-starreview, and don't forget to tell
your friends.
SPEAKER_04 (03:51):
Also, this thing runs off of merch sales,
listener support, and reviews.
Help us out with that stuff.
We'll love you forever.
And um, here's our conversationwith Ray Lang, Outsider, season
five, episode seven.
SPEAKER_02 (04:06):
Do I have to wear these?
SPEAKER_04 (04:07):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (04:08):
Do I hear myself when I wear them?
SPEAKER_04 (04:09):
You do.
SPEAKER_02 (04:10):
I can't do it.
SPEAKER_04 (04:11):
Okay, I'm gonna listen and make sure it's good.
SPEAKER_02 (04:13):
Okay, you wear them.
Nice.
SPEAKER_04 (04:15):
I also want to uh clarify your pronouns because
you put both they, them, andshe, her.
SPEAKER_02 (04:20):
Yeah, I really thank you for asking.
I don't really care.
Like a she, they, I guess nothe, yeah.
Right.
unknown (04:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:29):
Yeah, not easily offended, not like we don't have
to get into it.
Yeah.
Awesome, love that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (04:35):
So I I feel like you've probably been asked this
a billion times.
SPEAKER_02 (04:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (04:40):
What the hell does wusa mean?
SPEAKER_02 (04:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's a meditative word thathelps you relax when you say it
out loud.
Have you ever heard of itbefore?
SPEAKER_01 (04:48):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (04:48):
Okay, so it's like an inhale and an exhale, like,
ooza, like that.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Oh.
So in college, I used to say itall the time.
I don't know where I picked itup from, but it was just like a
slang word I'd say to myfriends, like, hey man, just
boosa, you know?
And so in college, making artand going to nature were the two
things that gave me that feelingof like being at ease and
(05:09):
centered.
So I started signing on my workWusa.
Because it just gave me thatfeeling.
Yeah.
I love that.
SPEAKER_04 (05:14):
So it's so it's kind of a reminder to just kind of
like take a breath and get yourhead out of your ass a little
bit.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (05:20):
Yes, which I still need that reminder.
Like, even I've been doing thisuh what 2012 was when I founded
it, and I still need thatreminder.
SPEAKER_04 (05:28):
Yeah, yeah.
To just well, you're humanthough.
Like, what what how do you dealwhen it kind of gets away from
you?
SPEAKER_02 (05:34):
Yeah, honestly, going to nature, I feel like it
can be it can sound so clicheand corny, like just go to the
woods, man.
But like that is the place thatmakes me feel the most at ease,
like just in nature.
SPEAKER_04 (05:44):
What is it about that, do you think?
SPEAKER_02 (05:46):
Um man, nature doesn't have to try, it just is.
And it gives you permission tojust be whatever you are,
whatever you're feeling, kind oflike lean into that and just
notice what already is.
Like I'm someone who's alwayschasing the next thing.
Like I love to tackle a bigdream or a big goal.
And so I think nature reminds meto slow down and notice what
(06:09):
already is around me, likewhat's naturally beautiful.
SPEAKER_04 (06:13):
Have you always kind of felt that pull?
SPEAKER_02 (06:15):
Um yes, yes and no.
I don't know.
Yes, okay.
So I wasn't like raised with afamily that's like, we're going
backpacking, like, you know, getyour gear, we're gonna do all
this crazy stuff.
Um, but I was raised to go forhikes, be outside, um, grew up
on a lake, like tubing.
Just my parents were alwayslike, let's see who can knock
the kids the highest in the airoff the tube, that kind of vibe.
(06:37):
Like I have three brothers, so Iwas outside a lot, you know,
just playing like that growingup.
Um, my aunt and uncle bought acottage on Lake Michigan up near
the bridge, Trails End Bay.
And that space holds like areally special, special spot for
me.
SPEAKER_04 (06:51):
Is that is that because that's where you guys
went, or was it, or was there,was there a moment or something?
Is there a what is it?
SPEAKER_02 (06:58):
So when I okay, I love to like dive really deep
into things like let's go.
Like, what is it about that?
You know, for me, I grew upmoving a lot.
So I moved back and forthbetween my mom's house and my
dad's house.
And I think I went to a total oflike 13 schools.
SPEAKER_01 (07:12):
Oh shit.
SPEAKER_02 (07:12):
And so that space remained the same, like that
cottage, the way it smelt, likearriving there in that view.
Like I can even I can feel rightnow the feeling I get when I
turn the corner and you see theview of the big lake.
You know, you're just like, as akid, you're stoked.
As an adult, you're stoked, andI still love going to the garage
there and just like you know,taking a big whiff.
(07:33):
It still smells like windsurfingsales and mountain bikes and
gets you stoked.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (07:38):
So it was kind of a kind of really like your only
constant.
SPEAKER_02 (07:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Which is interesting because mylife right now is going through
a huge change.
We just announced like a monthago, we're closing our Grand
Rapids shop after 10 years ofhaving a storefront here, which
is like every day I'm stilllike, wow, we're really doing
it, you know?
SPEAKER_01 (07:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:58):
Because on paper, it's the dream and it's been the
dream, but dreams change.
And I think I've realized thatthe phase of life I'm in now,
it's pulling me to nature.
It's pulling me to the lakeshore to like raise my kids
feral, have my own chickens.
You know?
I love that.
Yeah.
So it's like saying goodbye tothe city, the community I've
known, where I've started thisand the unknown is like both
(08:21):
exciting and a little scary.
SPEAKER_04 (08:23):
Uh, how does it weigh?
SPEAKER_02 (08:24):
Um, mostly exciting, but it depends on the day.
You know, there's days I wake upwhere I'm just like, you know,
ah, what's gonna happen?
And then there's days I wake upwhere I'm like, oh man, I wonder
what's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_04 (08:37):
Yeah, yeah.
So so let's back up a little bitbecause I I know your work,
yeah, and and I feel the impact.
Yeah, but this is the firstopportunity that we've ever had
to kind of sit down and mix itup.
SPEAKER_01 (08:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (08:50):
So I I want to get to know more about Ray as a
person.
I want to know about what kindof kid you were, I want to know
where you've been.
So you give me the origin story?
SPEAKER_02 (09:01):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
We'll see.
We'll see how uh deep into mypsyche we can dive here.
Um, yeah, I grew up in Milford,so east side of the state.
Have you ever been over there?
SPEAKER_04 (09:10):
I grew up in Wixham.
SPEAKER_02 (09:11):
No way.
So my mom lived in South Lyon,and my dad was Milford, and so
I'd bounce well, Commerce, youknow, Commerce Township.
SPEAKER_04 (09:18):
That's where my parents live.
SPEAKER_02 (09:19):
Lake Sherwood?
SPEAKER_04 (09:20):
Uh no, they live in some fucking okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (09:23):
There's like a thousand lakes over there.
SPEAKER_04 (09:25):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (09:25):
Yeah.
So I grew up over there.
Um, I don't know, as a kid I hadthree brothers.
So I loved uh mowing the lawn,taking care of my neighbors'
peach trees, power washing thedeck.
I guess I've always been gay.
You know, like I came out when Iwas 15, um, which was pretty
big.
And I transferred schools atthat time too.
(09:45):
Again, like I'm always thinkingof the next thing.
Like I was ready to be done withhigh school and in college.
When I was in college, I startedmy business and was ready to
graduate and just run it.
You know, so I see this patternin my life where I'm just
definitely driven by likewhatever I'm whatever's next.
So I'm wanting to like kind oftake a beat and slow down,
anyways.
I'm getting way off path fromlittle little ray, but yeah,
(10:09):
yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (10:10):
Was it Milford High School?
Did you go to Milford HighSchool?
SPEAKER_02 (10:12):
Uh well I graduated from Lakeland.
So it's like the arrival.
Is that where you went?
SPEAKER_04 (10:16):
Yeah, I graduated from Lakeland High School.
SPEAKER_02 (10:18):
What year?
SPEAKER_04 (10:18):
2003?
SPEAKER_02 (10:19):
Okay, I was 09.
Wild.
That is wild.
My brothers, my older brotherswere 07, so you probably missed
each other.
SPEAKER_04 (10:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (10:26):
Well, maybe.
SPEAKER_04 (10:27):
That's wild.
SPEAKER_02 (10:28):
Yeah, that is.
What are the ads?
Yeah.
That's so weird.
I don't know what to do now.
Yeah.
I'm like thrown off.
Should we go visit our parentstogether?
Should we go home?
SPEAKER_04 (10:39):
So, did I hear you say a minute ago that you you
started WUSA while you were incollege?
SPEAKER_02 (10:43):
Yeah, yeah.
So I was going to Kendall.
Actually, Kendall was my thirdcollege I went to.
Took me a while to get there.
Um, I don't know if you want todive into that at all.
We could, we could, all right.
So I went to um Saginaw Valleyfirst.
I got a scholarship to go there,become a nurse.
Long story short, my parentsforgot to like sign the
acceptance thing for it.
I should take responsibility.
(11:04):
I was also 18, but whatever.
And so I didn't know, I didn'tget the scholarship.
So when we arrived there on dayone, they were like, Yeah, you
didn't accept it, so we had togive it to someone else.
So that was a big bummer, but Istill went there for a year for
nursing.
And while I was there, Irealized like, ah man, nursing's
not for me because I can't seelike like blood and stuff
without wanting to faint.
So I'm like, ah, something else,you know.
(11:25):
So then I transferred to Centralto join the ROTC, which is
pretty left field for me.
I can't imagine myself in thearmy now, but at the time I was
like job security.
SPEAKER_05 (11:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (11:34):
Because growing up, I've always loved art, um, spent
all my free time just staying upall night at my drawing table
and coloring with pastels.
But I was like, well, how couldI make a career out of it?
That's kind of what the adultsin your life always bring up.
Well, what are you gonna do withit, you know?
Um, so then finally, before Isigned my life away to the army,
I was like, well, I should justat least try art, right?
Yeah.
So then I transferred toKendall, and that's what brought
(11:55):
me to Grand Rapids.
SPEAKER_04 (11:57):
Can you pinpoint kind of the moment that like you
felt the connection between artand nature?
SPEAKER_02 (12:02):
No, there's not a specific moment.
Like I remember, I guess growingup, I've always I used to draw
still life's of flowers.
So always drawn to the beauty ofnature, I guess, even at like a
really young age.
But um yeah, just going outsideand then bringing that
inspiration inside to thestudio, super organic.
SPEAKER_04 (12:22):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, because I feel like I feellike the colors and and textures
and stuff you use, like it islike it's organic and it feels
intentional.
SPEAKER_01 (12:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (12:31):
Um but I think that's you, right?
Like I think that's yourperspective, your experiences,
your vulnerability, your voiceshowing itself in your work.
SPEAKER_02 (12:44):
Oh, that's cool to know that that stuff comes
through because sometimes youcarve something and it's like,
you know, it's waves and trees,and like cool, but there's so
much emotion behind that that Idon't think can be felt.
Well, I guess it can be.
You're saying it can be.
So it's nice to know.
Yeah, there's a lot of energybehind woodcut printmaking too
that I love.
Um, so when I went to Kendall,let me back up to that again.
(13:07):
When I went to Kendall, um, Itransferred in still feeling
like, well, what am I gonna doto make a living off of like
creativity?
And so my aunt Julie, who's beena huge role model in my life,
was like, Well, you know, ifyou're wanting a career that
feels pretty solid, you could gointo industrial design.
Have you heard of that?
SPEAKER_01 (13:24):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (13:25):
Okay.
I was like, all right, I'll trythat because I come from a
family of engineers.
So I was like, sweet, this fits.
And so I was in that program andit's like you're you're
designing things to scale.
It's all like measurements,you're learning rhino and CAD
and all this stuff, and it kindof hurt my brain.
Like it wasn't like, oh, this isthis is fun and playful.
So then after school, I'd gohome to make art to just like
unplug, and that's when Istarted Wussaw.
(13:46):
So it was like a natural way forme to like tap into something
that felt organic.
And so then finally I realized,well, this is all I really want
to do.
Like, I'm already selling onEtsy, doing these pop-up like
markets.
So why don't I just go all in?
And so then I transferred intoprintmaking.
And then that's when I carved myfirst woodcut.
And when I've carved my firstwoodcut, it was like what I had
been the art I'd been drawing inmy brain all these years was was
(14:09):
a woodcut.
So when I carved it, I was like,oh my god, that's my medium.
Yeah, this is like I found it, Ifound it.
Yeah, so it's never gotten oldstill.
SPEAKER_04 (14:16):
So then when you carve into a block when you when
you print, is it a is it aconscious thing to put those
kind of feelings, those, thoseexperiences in your voice into
the work, or is it somethingthat just kind of happens?
SPEAKER_02 (14:28):
I feel like it's magic.
It just happens.
Yeah, because I'll look back ona print and I'm like, oh my god,
what a metaphor for what I wasfeeling at that time.
And you can see it inretrospect, but in the moment,
you're just feeling.
SPEAKER_01 (14:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:40):
And it's showing up in the work.
I even like the words that I'llcarve with some pieces, I don't
think too much about it in themoment, but then later when I
reflect on it, I'm like, ofcourse, that's what was on my
mind.
SPEAKER_04 (14:51):
Do you ever go back and kind of like revisit those
moments?
SPEAKER_02 (14:54):
And oh yeah, I can look at any piece of art that
I've made and remember exactlywhat I was going through in my
life or where I was.
That's incredible.
Yeah.
You know what blows my mind?
Some people don't have, I justlearned this.
They can't see their thoughts.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, okay, if I say picture ared apple, can you can you
picture a red apple?
SPEAKER_04 (15:12):
I've got a red apple.
SPEAKER_02 (15:13):
Is it pretty vibrant?
Yeah.
Is it can you see like the waterdripping down the apple?
SPEAKER_04 (15:18):
Yeah, I can see the shadows, I can see all of it.
SPEAKER_02 (15:20):
Can you imagine like cutting it and it falls in half?
Same.
Like super, like I can stare ata wall and like and like draw a
picture and then like kind oferase it and like change it, you
know what I mean?
And in design in my head, andnot everyone can do that.
Doesn't that blow your mind?
SPEAKER_04 (15:34):
That does blow my mind.
SPEAKER_02 (15:35):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (15:35):
My uh Well, what the hell do they do?
SPEAKER_02 (15:37):
My friend, she's my hairdresser, she can't see
anything.
Nothing comes to mind.
SPEAKER_04 (15:41):
Really?
unknown (15:42):
What?
SPEAKER_02 (15:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (15:44):
You know, I've also heard that like some people, and
I don't know if you're this wayor not, they they like even when
like you think to yourself, likeI hear words.
SPEAKER_01 (15:51):
Yeah, right?
SPEAKER_04 (15:52):
Like I hear like like I'm talking to myself.
Some people don't.
SPEAKER_02 (15:55):
Oh yeah.
I can't wrap my head aroundthat.
SPEAKER_04 (15:57):
Yeah, I don't understand that at all.
SPEAKER_02 (15:59):
Always thinking.
It's like a dog.
Unless I'm thinking aboutthinking, then I'm like, all
right, let's meditate.
Even then, I'm like, ah, cut itout.
There's a thought.
SPEAKER_04 (16:08):
So so kind of going back to your artistic voice, was
was that something that you hadto develop, or was that just
kind of always there and youjust kind of had to let it out?
SPEAKER_02 (16:18):
Yeah, I feel like my voice has always been there.
I've always been um a prettysensitive person, deeply feeling
like tapped into my feelings.
Um, so I don't think it's beenhard to find that voice or like
the things that I care about.
Um, I think style has changed.
I look back at my pieces when Ivery first started, and I can
(16:39):
see what I was trying toachieve, but I'm like, oh man,
like I wasn't there at all, youknow?
So it takes years to developyour style and grow in that way.
Yeah.
I can see how that's changed.
SPEAKER_04 (16:51):
So then looking back, like in what in what ways
are you kind of the same artist?
In what ways are you justcompletely different?
SPEAKER_02 (16:58):
That's a good question, too.
I think that the feeling I getfrom carving and creating hasn't
changed.
Like it lights me up.
If I could stay up all night andcarve, I would.
And I used to, but now I havekids.
unknown (17:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:11):
So my practices had to change around that.
Um, I think the things that Iwant to make art about and speak
to have to do with what unitesall of us.
And a lot of times what's toughfor me is there's a lot of like
heavy and ugly in the world,especially right now.
SPEAKER_00 (17:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:30):
And I can get lost in that because I do feel things
so deeply.
So sometimes I don't let myselfgo too far down a road that
could lead to like activism,right?
If if it's healthy, or it couldlead to just totally taking over
your thoughts and days.
And you know, so I think keepinga healthy balance of finding joy
(17:51):
in connection with people, evenin dark times, is super
important.
And I think art can be like avery quick reminder of that.
Yeah to snap someone back into aheadspace of connection and
love.
SPEAKER_04 (18:05):
That's awesome.
SPEAKER_02 (18:07):
And so does making it, you know, like being in that
space yourself, makingsomething.
SPEAKER_04 (18:12):
What do you get what do you get more out of?
Do you get more out of like theprocess of making it, or do you
get more out of kind of sharingit?
SPEAKER_02 (18:18):
Oh, that's a good question for where I'm at right
now because making it is myfavorite part.
I love carving.
I love just like, oh my gosh,like a hot cup of coffee, good
tunes, and I'm carving awoodcut.
Boom.
Like it's perfect.
It's all you need.
It's all I need.
Windows open, birds chirping,plus, plus points, you know.
(18:38):
But um, in the store lately,since we're closing, we're we're
like waiting for the property tosell.
Lots of unknowns.
Don't know when it will sell,don't know when we're moving.
Um, so I'm in the store everyday with my wife.
It's either me or her, orsometimes both of us.
And so I'm plugged back into thecommunity in a way that I
haven't been in like five years,because we opened a second store
out in Sagatok Douglas.
(18:58):
We've had Outside Coffee Co.
It grew.
It turned into this really bigthing.
And so I was able to have mystudio above the shop in Grand
Rapids and mostly be up there,which was great because it I
could just dive into art andcreativity, take on freelance
projects and like grow, right?
But it totally removed me fromthis thing that I didn't realize
fed my soul so much, which islike having genuine connection
(19:21):
with people that just walk inthe store and they're so kind,
you know?
Like there's people coming inthe store right now who are so
genuinely authentically stokedfor me and what's next, and they
don't even know me.
You know, like it just itreminds me of the like the deep
love that we naturally have foreach other.
SPEAKER_04 (19:40):
Well, I kind of I kind of get that feeling, right?
Like I kind of get because A,you kind of have a space that it
it just says come in with yourarms open.
Yeah, but then also I get thething where people feel like
they know you, right?
Because when I first moved toGrand Rapids in probably I think
it was maybe 2015, yeah, yourwork was like the first artist
(20:02):
that I like could go around townand recognize.
SPEAKER_01 (20:05):
Oh, that's cool.
SPEAKER_04 (20:05):
Like this being the first time we've ever sat down
and talked, yeah, like I've hada connection with your work for
years.
SPEAKER_02 (20:12):
That's that's so it's so wild to wrap my head
around that.
You know, I tend to not letmyself like I move on from
things so fast, I don't letmyself absorb in the the things
I should celebrate.
It's again back to the thingthat I'm moving so fast.
Like you saying that is amazing.
Like, that's so cool.
We just we're just now meetingand in but you feel like you've
(20:33):
known me.
Yeah, you know, like it's it'sreally profound to think about
how art connects people evenwithout them knowing they're
connected, and yet here we areconnecting and we went to the
same high school.
Like I still can't, yeah, I'mstill trying to wrap my head
around that.
SPEAKER_04 (20:48):
That's fucking crazy.
SPEAKER_02 (20:49):
Yeah, that's wild.
SPEAKER_04 (20:50):
I um you mentioned the coffee shop.
SPEAKER_02 (20:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (20:53):
I'm not gonna harp on you about taking it away from
me.
SPEAKER_02 (20:55):
Yeah, it's been it's been an emotional experience.
SPEAKER_04 (20:59):
Well, what what put you in the coffee space in the
first place?
SPEAKER_02 (21:02):
Oh, so I had a store on Division for three years.
So right after I graduated fromKendall, I wanted to open a
store and didn't really have anymoney.
And Division was prettyaffordable for rent, so I opened
a space there and I had mystudio in the store.
It was really like perfect,organic, slow pace.
And I realized quickly that thecommunity was just as equally
(21:23):
important to me as art.
So, like the people that wouldcome gather there and just form
friendships.
I was like, this is so cool.
I want to give people a space togather and do that that has
nothing to do with like thepressures of shopping and buying
something.
And so a coffee shop felt likethe natural thing to create.
Um, and I tend to not thinkabout like the it'll be so hard
(21:44):
because of XYZ until I'm in it.
Yeah.
And then you just kind of solvefor that while you're in that
moment.
Um, because I didn't knowanything about coffee, what it
took to like open a shop.
And me and my wife truly justlearned in the moment as we
built it, thinking that it wasgonna be very small and simple.
SPEAKER_04 (22:01):
It I feel like it blew up pretty quick.
SPEAKER_02 (22:03):
Yeah, way quicker than we.
I mean, I never thought it wouldblow up.
So it was like, holy smokes,there's a line to the gate every
day.
Yeah, and we had like a tinylittle camper we converted at
first.
Do you remember that?
I do, yeah, and that was parkedin the corner, and yeah.
So a year later we replaced thatwith the food truck that we had
for the past six years.
So that was a quick like, oh mygosh, this is not working.
(22:26):
We need to upgrade to somethingbigger.
SPEAKER_04 (22:28):
God, that's rad.
So so then you've moved that toDouglas.
Are you moving the studio andthe shop to Douglas as well?
SPEAKER_02 (22:33):
Well, so three years ago we opened a second location
out in Douglas, it's on the wayto The beach.
Um, so you you wouldn't pass usunless you're going to the
beach, which is really coolbecause yeah, you're just like,
Oh, what is that?
You know, and then you come findout it's like a cute little
coffee shop with nature art andstuff, hammocks and dogs, and
um, so yeah, we opened thatthree years ago and put the
(22:54):
coffee shop in it right away.
And this time we put it in thestore, so it's like plumbed and
everything is in the shop, butyou order at the windows outside
still, because I loved theconcept of like, hey, grab your
coffee and go slow down outside,connect with nature, connect
with friends.
You know, I think being outsidewith coffee and a friend
encourages you to slow down evenmore because there's no pressure
(23:16):
when you're in a coffee shopthat you feel that's like, well,
I've been at this table for 20minutes.
Should I go get another drink oram I here too long?
You know?
SPEAKER_04 (23:24):
Yeah, God.
Well, for what it's worth, Imiss it.
SPEAKER_02 (23:26):
Yeah, yeah.
It was a great, it was a greatjourney that we went on, and it
we accomplished what we set outto do.
It was really, really hard toclose it.
I'll say that.
SPEAKER_04 (23:36):
Oh, I'd imagine so, because like it didn't feel like
a uh like a whatever thing.
Like it was like a it was like ahub.
SPEAKER_02 (23:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (23:44):
You know?
SPEAKER_02 (23:44):
Yeah.
We thought we were gonna be ableto.
It's funny in retrospect, I cansee why things happened now, but
in the moment, you just keepasking, like, why?
Why is this h like?
I believe in like the universeand that there's divine timing
and like things happen as theyshould, doors open when they
should or close.
So when doors close and youdon't know why, you're like, uh,
there's a part of me that takesthat on.
(24:06):
Like, did I, did I not?
And this is not healthy.
Like, did I not like manifestthat enough?
You know what I mean?
Like, did I not, were mythought, was I too this or to
that?
But now in retrospect, it'slike, no, of course not.
Nobody's in control that much.
We think we are in the moment,you know, of what's happening.
So, yeah, anyways, all that tosay, we thought we were going to
(24:26):
build a building out there andthe quotes came in too high, and
then we thought we were gonnaput it in the shop with like
service windows.
And once we looked at likearchitect fees, historic, going
in front of the commission,presenting it, maybe not it even
passing because it's a historicbuilding, and then building it
out.
We just had to face it that likethe chapter's done.
SPEAKER_04 (24:44):
Yeah, just to know it's just done.
SPEAKER_02 (24:45):
We can't afford to, you know, do these permanent
solutions, and it's time for itto be done.
SPEAKER_04 (24:50):
Well, I love that.
Well, I've got some friends thatlive literally like two blocks
away from your shop in Douglas.
SPEAKER_02 (24:56):
So I'm not I'll be okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, come see us out there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (25:03):
Um I mean, so yeah, so so you have kind of created
this like full-on multifacetedbrand out of your create.
Is it is it fair to call it abrand?
SPEAKER_02 (25:11):
Is that yeah, yeah, yeah.
I know it's a weird word, isn'tit?
Yeah, yeah, it is it is a brand.
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (25:18):
So uh you've got your you've got your studio, the
store, coffee shop, thiscommunity.
Um, like you've built somethingsignificant that people connect
with, and that's that's a lot ofweight.
SPEAKER_01 (25:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (25:32):
How do you stay sane, balancing running a
business, making artwork,nurturing the community around
you, yeah, raising a family.
SPEAKER_02 (25:42):
Yes.
Well, the obvious answer isnature, right?
Like going to nature andconnecting and finding myself
there.
And um I think the truth of itis when you have kids, when I
had kids, I'll speak for myself,it really shows you your
capacity.
You know, you can't be more thanone place at once.
So you have to like look at yourlife and and what really
(26:02):
matters.
And it's very obvious when youhave kids.
You're like, these little peoplein my family is what matters the
most, like above everything.
And so it kind of helps frame inwhere you want to go, I guess.
Um, and so that's I feel likeI'm I'm always speaking in such
an abstract way.
SPEAKER_04 (26:21):
That's okay, lay it on me.
SPEAKER_02 (26:23):
Yeah, okay.
I think having kids was like thething that has propelled me to
like slow down and like zoom wayout from my life and look down
on it and see what's working andwhat's not and where I really
want to be.
And and like, how can I show upin this world as an artist?
Does it have to look the way itdoes now?
Can I find success in other waysthat are more freeing for me?
(26:45):
So, like for me, that looks likelike my dream right now is a
farmhouse on like three to 10acres with a barn that's my
studio in the backyard andchickens, and my kids are
running wild, you know, andmaybe we have events, people
show up and get to check out thestudio space.
And that's so different fromwhat I would have viewed success
as 10 years ago when I firstopened my store.
(27:07):
So I think like as you get olderand you get these different like
successes under your belt, Idon't know, you get to like try
things on and be like, whatfeels like it fits and what what
have I outgrown?
SPEAKER_04 (27:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (27:18):
Yeah.
I don't remember what you Idon't remember what you even
asked me originally or thatanswers the question.
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (27:25):
I am curious though, has has having kids impacted
your relationship withcreativity at all?
SPEAKER_02 (27:32):
Yeah, it's been hard not to have the time um to just
kind of be in the studio, youknow, to like see where the day
takes you.
It has to be more structuredwhen you have kids.
Like you're, you know, I'm I hadto change immediately from I'm
in the studio from you know 11p.m.
to 4 a.m.
to I show up at nine and I leaveto be home by 4:30 to get my
(27:54):
kids.
Yeah, you know, so you can'treally be like, oh, creativity
is striking right now.
Let's go dive into it.
You have to kind of table itlike tomorrow I'll I'll circle
back.
SPEAKER_04 (28:04):
Are they exposed to the creative process?
SPEAKER_02 (28:06):
Yeah.
So we have um, I'll bringwoodcuts home and carve.
Um and then we have a littlelike makeshift ceramic studio in
our basement right now.
Because my wife, she's alwaysran the businesses, like she's a
finance degree, so she's verylike left-brained, loves a good
spreadsheet.
And I'm like, I don't even wantto see one.
Um, so she hasn't had the timeto like dive into her
creativity.
(28:27):
And so now that we'resimplifying things a bit, um,
she's diving into it.
And so she's downstairs uhmaking stuff on this little
wheel that was given to us, butfrom a friend, it's from an old
library, and we just realizedthat it's for kids.
She's like, that's why I canonly make these tiny little
things because the wheel is likethis big and the um the bat or
whatever.
And then we have a kiln that wasgiven to us, but we haven't
(28:49):
wired it up yet because we thinkwe're moving, so we don't want
to like go through all that.
Um, but yeah, so they're aroundto see the process.
Actually, last night when I wasputting my three-year-old to
bed, he's so sweet.
He's another like deep feelingsoul.
He grabbed my face, he's like,Mommy, I love looking at your
art just out of nowhere.
I'm like, oh my god.
And he's like, and I love mama'spottery.
Like, I love you.
(29:10):
He's so sweet.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (29:12):
Like, and I'm a puddle.
SPEAKER_02 (29:13):
Yeah, yes.
I'm like, fine, we can stay up alittle later.
SPEAKER_04 (29:17):
And you can watch one episode of The Sopranos.
SPEAKER_02 (29:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (29:23):
God, something that I love too about your work is
that like it doesn't, it doesn'thave to be deep, right?
I mean, it does get deep, but itdoesn't have to be.
And and and I love that nomedium is lesser than another,
right?
Like you're putting you're doingprints, t-shirts, hats,
stickers, all of this stuff.
SPEAKER_02 (29:41):
Like, yeah.
That's one thing that artschool, I feel like it was
pretty like uh there was like ajuxtaposition between like fine
art, you know, going to artschool, and then like an awesome
t-shirt from your favoriteartist.
And why is that not worthy ofthe same appreciation as the
actual like fine art print?
Um, I think making thingsaccessible to everyone, things
(30:02):
that they connect with, athree-dollar sticker, and then
like the original woodcut isreally cool because it's really
again back to like connection,like you like that thing, you
too can enjoy that thing.
It doesn't have to be framed andlike put on a pedestal to be
worthy, you know.
I think it's interesting toothat people value time so much
with art.
Like a main question I get ishow long did that take you to
(30:23):
carve?
SPEAKER_04 (30:24):
You know, but 35 years.
SPEAKER_02 (30:25):
Yeah, yeah.
I don't know if it like whatdifference does it make, you
know?
SPEAKER_05 (30:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (30:31):
Um, I guess that kind of circuit that like
connects back to like a mug, isit more valuable than the
original painting?
I don't know, it's up to you todecide.
SPEAKER_04 (30:40):
I don't know.
I feel like when you buy aprint, like you're making like a
huge commitment, right?
Like you're deciding that it hasto go somewhere in your home,
you have to frame it, you haveto put it on the wall, like it's
take like it's it's a hugecommitment.
Yeah, but if you can still likeinteract and experience that
piece by wearing the t-shirt,yeah, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02 (30:59):
And if it reminds you of a place or a time, you
know, my favorite thing is onvacation, you're traveling
somewhere new, and you find likethe local spot, you know, the
spot that you walk in, you'relike, if I lived here, this
would be my spot.
Yeah, and it's just all it takesis one person there to like
connect with you, and you'relike, Oh yeah, this this is the
best coffee shop.
This is where it's at.
You know, and you grab a stickerfrom there and you come home,
and every time you look at thatsticker, it takes you back to
(31:20):
that that trip.
SPEAKER_04 (31:22):
Um you play guitar in a former life.
unknown (31:27):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (31:28):
In a former life, I think.
Is that a metaphor?
Did you actually use to play theguitar?
No, I actually did.
SPEAKER_04 (31:32):
Okay, I don't know if like your previous life No, I
I you know I tried to be in aband for a long time.
Okay, and all that turned out tobe was just like uh jamming with
your aisle of debt.
SPEAKER_02 (31:43):
Oh yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (31:45):
You know, it's just like everything costs a million
dollars, and you know, you maketen dollars over here to to
travel four hours away and goplay somewhere.
SPEAKER_01 (31:53):
And yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (31:55):
Yeah, although I fucking miss it.
SPEAKER_01 (31:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (31:57):
I do, because I don't know, there's like and I
guess I do kind of still get thesame feeling out of, you know,
when somebody buys a print orsomething like that that when
when somebody's singing backlike words that you wrote.
SPEAKER_02 (32:08):
Yeah, that's gotta feel like that's fucking cool.
Yeah, yeah, because you know youimpacted them.
SPEAKER_04 (32:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (32:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (32:14):
Do you get that out of uh out of your work at all?
SPEAKER_02 (32:17):
Oh, every time I see a sticker on someone's car when
I'm driving on the highway, orlike at the store I see a Who
Sap T on someone.
Yeah, I always feel embarrassedto like I don't know what to
say.
Like, oh hey, I'll be like, hey,cool shirt, sometimes, and
they'll they'll be like, Thanks,you know, or sometimes we'll be
like, Oh, are you did you didyou make it?
You know, but it's so weird tobe like, thanks, I made it, you
(32:38):
know, like that's why but I wantthem to know, like, hey, we're
buds, you know?
Yeah, like I like your shirt,you like it, I made it.
SPEAKER_04 (32:45):
Yeah, I I was just at the Hall Street Bakery two
days ago.
Yeah.
And I was I was wearing one ofmy own shirts because I'm the
guy that's in a band that wearshis own band shirt.
SPEAKER_02 (32:54):
You got to.
SPEAKER_04 (32:55):
Whatever.
And uh the uh the guy at thecash register was like, Oh my
god, I love your shirt.
Where'd you get it?
And I was like, in my head, Iwas like, I don't, I don't want
to have this conversation.
SPEAKER_02 (33:06):
Yes, yes, that happened to me just now at the
Hall Street Baker before Iwalked down here.
Yeah, this woman was like, Oh, Ilike your hat.
Is it um did you get itrecently?
And I was like, Oh, it it justcame in today, which was like a
weird way to respond.
I'm like, I made it, and theyjust came in today at Wusa.
Have you been in the store?
Like, I'm like, I don't know howto.
She's like, Oh, my son loves it.
He lives in Colorado, he's gonnacome by and buy one.
(33:27):
Yeah, so cool.
SPEAKER_04 (33:29):
Yeah, I love it.
And it and it never gets old,right?
Like, yeah, it just doesn't getold.
SPEAKER_02 (33:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (33:34):
Um, is there anything else we should talk
about before we go topichopping?
SPEAKER_02 (33:38):
Oh man.
No, I'm up for whatever.
SPEAKER_04 (33:41):
Um, when you're gone, yeah, what do you hope
people say about you?
SPEAKER_02 (33:46):
I hope people say that I was kind.
Like, that's the first word thatcomes to mind.
That I was kind and yeah.
Is that enough?
SPEAKER_04 (33:55):
That's yeah.
That's great.
Yeah.
Finish the thought.
SPEAKER_02 (33:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (33:58):
Creativity requires openness.
SPEAKER_02 (34:02):
Um I think you can force a lot of things.
Like, we've all been in a spacewhere you have to create
something for a client, andyou're like, oh man, I gotta
come up with five concepts.
I've got one, you know, and youkeep pushing yourself, and maybe
you open up a door that way intomore.
But when you're open and you'renot expecting or putting
constrictions around what itlooks like and when it happens,
(34:24):
and you're just open to whateverhappens.
That's when it flows.
You know, you connect tosomething that's different
outside of you, and it justpours out of you.
I think that's true creativity.
It's just like, hey man, I'mjust open.
I'm just like the vehicle forthis.
SPEAKER_04 (34:39):
How long did it take you to kind of open that door?
SPEAKER_02 (34:41):
Oh, I mean, it closes all the time.
unknown (34:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (34:44):
So you still get stuck?
SPEAKER_02 (34:45):
Yeah, I think stress closes it, you know, when you're
stressed about things, and um,that's when you get like really
tense and uptight, and you'relike holding on to things so
tightly as a metaphor.
Uh not actually holdingsomething.
When you can loosen up and likelet things flow and you're more
connected, I think that's whenagain you it's always there.
Like your creativity is alwaysthere.
You just like kind of lose touchwith it sometimes, and then you
(35:08):
tap back in.
I think like the obvious thingsthey feel obvious to me, like
slowing down and doing likebreath work, meditation, yoga,
nature, like all these thingsthat help you just like kind of
align.
I love going to Reiki and likehaving that kind of therapy
done.
Um, also a big fan of talktherapy.
Love to talk about my feelings,so I do that.
(35:29):
Yeah.
Um, so I think there's a lot ofways to kind of open that back
up.
SPEAKER_04 (35:34):
What would your last meal be?
SPEAKER_02 (35:36):
Like really good, like classic Fettigini Alfredo.
Because then I don't have toworry about the tummy ache
after.
It's my favorite food, but everytime I eat it, I'm like, I'm too
old for this.
I can't do this again.
SPEAKER_04 (35:51):
My body's changed.
Yeah.
unknown (35:53):
I don't like it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (35:55):
Um, what's the best or worst advice that you've ever
received?
SPEAKER_02 (35:59):
Best or worst.
Okay, we'll go with best.
So my Aunt Julie growing up toldme like, just go for it all the
time.
She's the artist in our family.
Everyone else is like engineers.
She's like, whatever you'remeant to be, like, it's going to
work out as long as you'refollowing that path.
So if this feels like what youwant to do, you should do it.
And so those words, my wholelife kind of would come back
(36:22):
into my head whenever I wasveering off the path and
encouraged me to get back on.
Like, no, I'm an artist.
Like, this is what I want to do.
I think all it takes is like oneperson in your life who really
believes in you and your passionto encourage you to pursue it.
You know, like as soon as youstart to feel those doubts, that
voice being like, no, it's allgonna work out if it's meant to
(36:43):
be.
SPEAKER_04 (36:44):
She sounds like a pretty significant influence.
SPEAKER_02 (36:47):
Yeah, she's awesome.
She does really cool like brandidentity work.
So her company is um This IsWorthwhile.
And I mean, I see the connectiontalking out loud now, but like
she likes to work with companieswho do work that's worthwhile.
So like doing good, you know,yeah, in in the world.
Um, but she's helped me a lotwith Wusau over the years, like
refining the brand identity.
(37:07):
And she helped me create a brandbook that helps us train our
team and come back to our whyand like what our mission
statement, what we're all about.
We're this, we're not that, thatkind of stuff.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (37:17):
What a what a cool person to just have around.
SPEAKER_02 (37:19):
Oh, she's great.
She's I could just talk to herfor days.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (37:23):
Uh, what's a what's a small everyday thing that
brings you joy?
SPEAKER_02 (37:28):
Um obvious answer is my kids.
But if you put that one aside,um, biking.
I love biking.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (37:36):
Like mountain biking.
What are we talking here?
SPEAKER_02 (37:40):
Well, my favorite kind of biking is like uh a nice
trail through the woods, nothingtoo sketchy.
I don't have to do any jumps ordad trees going too fast, you
know, like just a nice littlescenic.
I like to go really fast though,so that's fun.
Um, but even biking to work,total game changer.
SPEAKER_05 (37:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (37:58):
If you bike to work versus drive, you just have such
a better day if you bike towork.
SPEAKER_04 (38:03):
A few years ago, uh, I've got some friends who love
going biking in the woods andstuff.
And yeah, and they're like, Whydon't you come with us?
Try it out.
And I'm like, okay, all right.
You know, you know, my buddy'slike, uh, I've got a I got a
bike you can borrow.
It's gonna be a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_01 (38:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (38:20):
And they're like, okay, I've picked out a beginner
kind of trail.
And um, if that was a beginnertrail, then uh I don't know.
I I couldn't tell you.
I couldn't tell you.
But I was like, this is fuckingterrifying.
SPEAKER_02 (38:35):
Did you have to like go over a like a tree bridge,
like a log?
Yeah.
Yeah, but like my heart alwaysis erasing.
Yes, yeah.
That stuff, I just maybe if Iwas a kid, like I learned how to
do it, then I'd be lessintimidated by it now.
Or maybe it's just not in in thecards for me.
But yeah, same.
I'm like, no, I'm bailing, I'mgoing around that for sure.
SPEAKER_04 (38:53):
And then on top of it, like the mosquitoes that day
were out of control.
Yeah, and I'm just sweating, I'mterrified, I'm getting eaten up,
and I'm just like, all right,biking's not my thing.
Yeah, it's too many things,biking's not my thing.
SPEAKER_02 (39:04):
Yeah, I'm doing my first bike race in April.
The Barry Roubaix, is that howyou say it?
SPEAKER_04 (39:09):
I don't know.
Where's it?
SPEAKER_02 (39:10):
Founder's beer, Rubet.
Roubaix?
Roubais.
SPEAKER_04 (39:13):
Uh Rubaeus.
SPEAKER_02 (39:14):
Beri Rubaius?
Someone will correct us.
It's either Roubaix or Rubaius.
It's in Hastings, though.
It actually goes by my AuntJulie's house.
Like the track, but it's um, Ithink it's I know no facts about
this other than it's like the uhbiggest gravel road race in the
country, question mark.
Someone will correct us on thattoo.
But people come in from all overthe country to like race this
(39:34):
race.
And originally I was like, Iwill train and I'm gonna, I'm
gonna win this delusional.
I'm not I'm not winninganything, but I'm very
competitive and I have nottrained at all.
So we'll see how it goes.
Yeah.
I've just been biking casually.
Um why would you do it?
Uh I love okay.
You know what?
I do have an answer for that.
(39:55):
I love type two fun.
Have you heard of this before?
Okay, so there's like type onefun, which is, and I'm probably
gonna say these backwards, butthere's type one, uh, which is
it's fun while you're doing it,and it's fun when you look back
on it.
Type two fun is it's not thatfun while you're doing it, but
it's really fun when you lookback on it.
And then type three fun is it'snot fun when you're doing it,
(40:16):
and it's not fun when you lookback on it.
And I feel like I do like typethree fun sometimes too.
So like picking a challengethat's kind of absurd and then
seeing if you can do it is verysatisfying.
SPEAKER_04 (40:26):
Awesome.
Love that.
SPEAKER_02 (40:27):
Yeah, sweet.
SPEAKER_04 (40:28):
Um do you have any regrets?
SPEAKER_02 (40:30):
I mean, my first answer that comes to mind is no.
SPEAKER_04 (40:33):
I love the idea of not having any regrets, right?
Like I feel like that's such asuch a positive, um, optimistic
way of treating yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (40:44):
Right, yeah.
Because I mean, I do believethat everything happens as it
should.
So even if you regret something,you learned a lesson from that
or it led you closer to whereyou're meant to be.
Or I I honestly can't think of aregret, but of course there's
things that I wish in retrospectI could have done differently.
Yeah.
With like the experience I havenow or something like that.
SPEAKER_04 (41:05):
What would you change?
SPEAKER_02 (41:06):
I don't know, because then you look at the
circumstances and you're like, Ireally couldn't do it
differently.
Basically, like I I like youshow up the best you can in
those moments with what youhave.
So I don't think I have regrets.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (41:18):
I love that.
SPEAKER_02 (41:19):
Yeah.
Do you?
unknown (41:20):
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (41:24):
Yeah?
SPEAKER_01 (41:25):
Yeah.
A lot.
Oh you got a list?
SPEAKER_04 (41:27):
Uh I I bet if I sat down I could yeah, I could come
up with a list.
Yeah.
So like one thing for me is thatlike I've always I don't know, I
think it's maybe only been overthe last few years where I've
kind of embraced more optimism.
Yeah.
Like I used to think it wasreally cool to be negative and
really cool to uh like shit onother people to kind of you know
(41:48):
build myself because I was ashithead, you know what I mean?
Because I was insecure and allof that stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (41:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (41:54):
So I you know, you kind of look back at that person
and you're like, I fucking hatethat guy.
SPEAKER_02 (41:59):
Yeah.
But I wonder what kind ofempathy that's given you, you
know?
SPEAKER_04 (42:03):
I think probably a lot.
SPEAKER_02 (42:04):
Yeah.
Like it shaped who you are now.
Of course, you wish you didn'tlike cause pain, like bring pain
to other people.
But like none of us are perfect.
We've all done shitheads before.
I think right now with theinternet, we're easy to like
jump down each other's throatsand like cancel everyone, judge
everyone.
No one has the full story onthings, and like, oh, it's
(42:25):
exhausting.
It's exhausting.
SPEAKER_04 (42:27):
I try so hard to like not get caught up in the
Instagram of it all.
Yeah.
Right.
I try so hard not to get caughtup in the in the news and stuff,
but it's like every time I turnaround, I feel like I'm just
being bitch slapped.
SPEAKER_02 (42:39):
Yeah.
So it is hard right now to askyourself like, I want to be
informed and I want to show upand make an impact positively,
but I also need to take care ofmy my like peace of mind.
Yeah.
Where do you draw that line?
SPEAKER_04 (42:53):
I feel like for me it's getting harder.
SPEAKER_02 (42:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (42:57):
You know, because I I think like the the longer
things go and the shittierthings get, it's like the more
that I realize that I don'tactually have uh say or control
in anything.
SPEAKER_02 (43:10):
Exactly.
Yeah.
And that letting go is likefreeing and scary.
SPEAKER_04 (43:15):
Yeah, and from my perspective, seemingly
impossible.
SPEAKER_02 (43:18):
Yeah.
I wish I had an answer, youknow, like how to get through
this time together.
But it always comes back tolove.
Like, if you really can itsounds so corny.
I realize the things I say thatsound so corny, but I truly
believe it.
Like, like the lovingrelationships in your life, the
joy that like it's so importantright now that we find joy.
SPEAKER_05 (43:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (43:40):
Yeah, it's so easy to be like, how why do I get to
um experience joy when labelanything anything happening
right now?
Pick one thing out of the hat,right?
When these people aren't, orthese people are suffering, or
this, these rights are beingtaken away.
But it's it is an act of likeresistance to have joy during
times like this, and it fuels usto be stronger and carry on
(44:02):
together.
SPEAKER_04 (44:03):
I I am kind of in love with the idea of of joy as
an act of resistance.
Yeah, that just like you justchange something in my brain.
SPEAKER_02 (44:10):
I think you're naturally a joyful person.
You laugh, you're I try, yeah,yeah.
Yeah, you you light up, youknow?
It's contagious.
SPEAKER_04 (44:18):
Good.
SPEAKER_02 (44:19):
Yeah.
Good.
Thank you.
unknown (44:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (44:21):
Uh last question I have for you.
SPEAKER_02 (44:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (44:23):
Are you okay?
SPEAKER_02 (44:25):
Yeah.
Oh my god, that's so wild youasked me that.
Just gonna go right to it, getright to my root core fear for
everybody listening.
The thing I always come back tois is everything okay?
Is everything gonna be okay?
And I've been doing this therapylately that's um family systems
therapy.
I don't know if you've heard ofit.
(44:46):
No.
You essentially, not to get toodeep, but you talk to your inner
child, like you meet differentparts of yourself.
And interesting.
You talk to that part of youthat's coming up, and you show
up as the adult for that part ofyou that they needed at that
time.
So you get to talk to thatversion of yourself and say,
everything's gonna be okay.
(45:06):
And it's super healing becauseit's not you in this moment
that's wondering if you're okay.
It's a part of you that's beingtriggered by something around
you that's you know, and ittakes over if you're not aware
of it and you think it's all ofyou.
Anyway, so yeah, everything'sokay.
I'm okay.
SPEAKER_04 (45:22):
Are you are you seeing a difference in yourself
through that?
SPEAKER_02 (45:25):
Oh my gosh, yes.
It was my first session was likeso profound.
I felt like I was carrying thatpart of me around with me for
the week.
This like little likesix-year-old Ray.
It was super healing.
SPEAKER_04 (45:40):
Yeah, God, I love it.
Um, before we go, where canpeople find you?
SPEAKER_02 (45:45):
Right now, I don't know when this airs, but I'm in
Grand Rapids in the shop.
Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,Saturday.
Um, but after that, I'll be outby the lake shore once we move.
Um, Douglas is where our otherstore is.
That's at 450 Center Street.
Um, we're across from the rootbeer barrel.
I don't know if you've seen it.
SPEAKER_04 (46:04):
Oh, I know the root beer.
SPEAKER_02 (46:05):
Okay, yeah.
So you'll know when you see it.
And then um, I don't know wheremy studio will be or if it will
be like something I can sharewith people, or if it's gonna be
too far in my backyard that it'sweird to have people come back.
Like I have no clue what thefuture holds, but um I'll be out
there hopefully this summer.
SPEAKER_04 (46:21):
Instagram website, anything like that?
SPEAKER_02 (46:23):
Oh, that too, other than just physically finding me.
Um, yeah, Instagram is WoosaOutfitters, and then our website
is woosaoutfitters.com.
SPEAKER_04 (46:31):
Killer.
SPEAKER_02 (46:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (46:32):
Ray, thank you.
Yeah, this is a fucking blast.
SPEAKER_02 (46:34):
This was fun.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, yeah, let's get out ofhere.
All right, let's go to HallStreet.
SPEAKER_04 (46:47):
Bad Idea Social Club is an independent podcast made
possible by merch sales,reviews, and listener support.
It is created and hosted by me,graphic designer and the call,
and co-hosted by photographerGil Madison.
Music is noises by Mike Matonthe branches.
Get Bad Idea Social Clubwherever you dig your podcast.
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