Sara Pulver: Chaos and Whimsy

Sara Pulver (illustrator, muralist, Dear Ollie) sits down with Aaron McCall to talk about knowing who you are and building something around it. She gets into a lifelong love of tactile, handmade things that eventually turned into markets, a grant, and a stationery shop where she hosts her own work alongside over a hundred vendors with a focus on women and queer creators. They talk about tackling murals, life as a neurodivergent artist, and why the AI crunch might be the best argument yet for going analog. About finding your people, protecting your whimsy, and keeping the whole thing moving.

Keep up with Sara Pulver:
sarapulver.com
IG: @sarapulver
dearollie.com
IG: @dearollieandco

Creative Mornings Grand Rapids
Monthly lecture series. Everyone's creative and everyone's welcome. Find your local chapter.

Merchants & Makers
West Michigan artists, makers, and small businesses. Shop local with food trucks and live music.

——
This episode is supported by:
Creative Mornings Grand Rapids
Merchants & Makers
——
Writer/Producer/Editor/Host:
Aaron McCall
aaronmccall.net
IG: @aaron_mccall
——
Co-Host/Sidekick/Photographer:
Joe Matteson
themattesons.co
IG: @joe_dustin
——
Music:
"Noises" by Mike Mains & The Branches
——
Support the Podcast:
Buy Merch
——
Follow Bad Idea Social Club:
badideasocialclub.com
IG: @badideasocialclub

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_03 (00:37):
So we had a Kinshop birthday book fair last year,
last September, which we aredefinitely doing again.
So we basically just recreated ascholastic book fair, but for um
a best day.
That was the best day.
It was the best day.

SPEAKER_01 (00:52):
Just loading up on goosebumps like a mother could
be a bit.

SPEAKER_03 (00:55):
So great.
Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14):
Do you want to know a thing?
You want to know a thing?
Yeah, of course I do.
I'm wearing makeup today.

SPEAKER_00 (01:19):
Tell me why and where.

SPEAKER_01 (01:21):
I'm a face.
Yeah, why?
Why?
So I started a new like uhskincare routine.
Nice.
And I think my face is justadjusting, but I'm breaking out
like a motherfucker.

SPEAKER_00 (01:31):
Well, you look great.
I kind of wish you would havegone like eyeliner or something.

SPEAKER_01 (01:34):
Yeah, go real dark, really dramatic.

SPEAKER_00 (01:37):
Just a really deep red lip.

SPEAKER_01 (01:41):
Something kind of like sexy but understated.

SPEAKER_00 (01:44):
Yeah, a little flirty, but professional.

SPEAKER_01 (01:49):
Okay, let's do this.
Hey everybody, welcome back toBad Idea Social Club.
My name is Aaron McCall.
And I'm Joe Madison.
This time I sat down withIllustrator, muralist, and just
absolute weirdo Sarah Polver.
The artist behind uh Dear Ollie.
And she also runs Dear OllieCo., which is a um it's a

(02:10):
stationary and art shop indowntown Lansing, Michigan, that
like it gives her work like aretail home, but then it's also
like she's also hostingliterally a hundred other
artists and vendors in thatspace.
I kind of think Sarah's one ofthe lucky ones um in that she
figured out who she is and thenjust kind of built everything

(02:30):
else around it.
Um and I think you can see thatin her work.
Um it's it's like full of colorand energy, um, and it's also
kind of funny, but it also kindof fucking says something, which
is uh I mean I dig.

SPEAKER_00 (02:45):
This is like a complex question that doesn't
have a direct answer, but why doyou think it is some people find
themselves so quickly and thencan build upon that, and then
other people it takes like afucking lifetime to figure out
who they are?

SPEAKER_01 (02:55):
Um I don't know, man.
I think I think a lot of peoplespend their entire lives kind of
shaping themselves around umwhat's practical and what's
acceptable.

SPEAKER_00 (03:08):
Yep.

SPEAKER_01 (03:09):
Um, instead of honing in on who they really
are.

SPEAKER_00 (03:13):
And also adversely to that, I think that a lot of
my life I lived the the directopposite.
I like directly went against thegrain because I felt like I was
hiding from who I actually was.
Go ahead.
I remember in school I would doshit with like my hair or like
just wear shit, right?
And I remember it feeling likelike, yeah, I'm like fine with

(03:35):
this, you know, but I rememberdoing it because like it was so
abruptly different, it just feltdifferent.
And I think that was me likeeither protecting myself from
who I really am, even though,you know, I mean, I don't need
to protect myself.
It's I I want to celebrate that,but or it's like I was
desperately just trying to findit.
It's like, is bright green spikyass hair me?

(03:57):
I don't know.
Let's figure it out.

SPEAKER_01 (03:58):
Well, let's also not forget about the the relentless
onslaught of corn t-shirts.

SPEAKER_00 (04:03):
Dude, it's fine.
I used to fight that legacy realhard, and I'll just accept it.

SPEAKER_01 (04:08):
I know you're trying to cut me off, but I am going to
mention the Jinkos and thesuspenders that hang down.

SPEAKER_00 (04:14):
Dude, I spent time in those suspenders.
I know.
Like, I'm not gonna say bedazzlethem, but I mean it basically
was.

SPEAKER_01 (04:23):
So then let me ask you this, Joe, because you know,
we've been asking all of ourguests this.
Um, what what makes you feelmost like yourself today?

SPEAKER_00 (04:32):
It's all of my family together.
It's me taking cinnamon rollsout of the oven that I just
baked that are like slightlyundercooked, just like the way
my wife likes them, and they'reperfect.
And everyone has what they need,and everyone is is happy in in
the same spot, and like mybrother's laugh is like filling
up the entire house, andeveryone is showing off shit

(04:55):
they're working on.
And the moment of that thatmakes me feel the most like me
is I'm going up to everyone andjust asking them if they need
anything.

SPEAKER_01 (05:04):
Man, you're a you're a um what am I trying to say?
You're like a guy of service.

SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
A hundred thousand percent.
It is it is so deeply rooted inme for some reason, and it is it
gives me so such profound joy tobe like, hey, do you need
something?
Yes, I have that.
Let me get that for you.
And in fact, let me let me getthe best version of that thing
for you that I can possibly getmy hands on right now.

SPEAKER_01 (05:31):
I love that you actually have an answer for that
because I was I was kind ofthinking about it.
Yes, I don't know that I do.
It's hard, dude, isn't it?
I realize now what I've beendoing to people in and like
asking them that question.
That's difficult, and I'm sorry,I'm not gonna stop.

SPEAKER_00 (05:48):
But like it makes me it's funny that we we landed on
those two topics ofconversations because one, I
think for a long time I I didnot know who I was and I did not
know how to find him.
And I think it's just throughliving life, I just stumbled
across who I who I love to be.

SPEAKER_01 (06:06):
I would would you would you be friends with
yourself uh from when we firstmet back in high school?

SPEAKER_00 (06:13):
Hell no.

SPEAKER_01 (06:14):
Yeah, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_00 (06:15):
Hello, absolutely not.
I'd be friends with you though,from 10 years ago, 20 years ago,
whenever.
I would totally be your friendstill.

SPEAKER_01 (06:21):
I don't know.
I think I would talk a lot ofshit about you.

SPEAKER_02 (06:24):
You definitely would.
You for sure would.

SPEAKER_00 (06:29):
It's great.
All right, before we dive in,don't forget to follow wherever
you're listening or watching.
Leave a five-star review anddon't forget to tell your
friends.

SPEAKER_01 (06:37):
Also, this thing runs off of uh merch sales and
listener support, and uh therewas something else, reviews.
And so please, please, please godo that.
Um real quick, I do just want tosay though, I mentioned earlier
that like Sarah, I felt like wasone of the lucky ones, but I I I
wanted to clarify.

(06:58):
I mean that in the in in thesense that the life that she's
living is rare, not that shehasn't busted her ass for it.
That's all.
Here's my here's my conversationwith Sarah.

SPEAKER_03 (07:09):
Cool, cool.

SPEAKER_01 (07:10):
So where do you want to start with this thing?

SPEAKER_03 (07:12):
Oh, I don't fucking know.
You're the professional, right?

SPEAKER_01 (07:14):
Why don't we why don't we start with the origin
story?

SPEAKER_03 (07:16):
I don't want to talk about my childhood.
Say I just had therapy thisweek.
Say I didn't know.
No, um origin story.
Say I always feel like originstory uh for me and like the
work that I do today kind of uhstarts from middle school pen

(07:36):
pals.

SPEAKER_01 (07:37):
Okay, tell me that.

SPEAKER_03 (07:39):
In middle school, we had like assigned pen pals,
where uh like I think that ourschool had some sort of um like
exchange program with likeGerman exchange students in like
a very certain particular schoolor something like that.
And because we kind of had thatbuilt-in relationship, they
would assign us pen pals.
Uh, and then you would sendletters and send all different

(08:00):
kinds of stuff and you wouldlearn how to send mail to a
different country, right?
Pretty fun.
And ever since then, I was justimmediately obsessed with
sending mail.
And I feel like that is such alittle like turning point in the
directions.

SPEAKER_01 (08:17):
Is that where your like tactile everything kind of
comes from?

SPEAKER_03 (08:21):
You bet.
Say, and well, between the penpals, and then they had us do uh
this project where we wouldwrite into like our favorite
companies and like let them knowwhat we loved about their
product.
And so, like, I don't know, Iprobably wrote in for like wet
and wild eyeliner or something,you know, like I was like 14.
And uh then you wrote in andlike companies then would send
you like stickers and you know,like coupons for free shit and

(08:45):
everything.

SPEAKER_01 (08:46):
Well, I was hoping for a little eyeliner or
whatever.

SPEAKER_03 (08:48):
This is kind of magical though.
Like, I can just send you mythoughts and then you'll send me
stuff.
That's very cool.
Say, uh, and I've just alwaysbeen really, really drawn to
things that are a bit more likeintimate or nostalgic.
And I feel like snail mail is areally big one of those things.
And so jumping ahead in life,say, even I had pen pals up

(09:10):
until like, I mean, I wish Istill had them now.
Like not that long ago, likemaybe like 10 years ago or so.
I was probably still writingpeople like oh, that's amazing,
uh, regularly from differentcountries, different places.
Uh and eventually, say thosepeople started, I well, I just
started making things to send tothem because I've always had a

(09:34):
background in art in some kindof way.
Like I was voted like the mostartistic in like high school,
and like, you know, you can kindof follow the trajectory a
little bit.
Say they so I started makingthings and making my own like
stationery and stuff like thatto send them.
And then eventually they werelike, Wait, like, will you send
me more?
Can I buy some so that I cansend it to my other friends?

(09:55):
And I was like, Yeah, you can dothat.
And then next thing you know,all of a sudden you have a line
of stationery.

SPEAKER_01 (10:01):
So is that so is that how is that how Deer Alley
started?

SPEAKER_03 (10:04):
That's how Deer Alley started for sure.

SPEAKER_01 (10:06):
Well, how did it how did it go from that to like
opening like an actual store?

SPEAKER_03 (10:11):
Well, say, I mean, uh having uh a brick and mortar
space was always like a reallylike big goal for me.
So in uh my like previous life,I spent like about 10 years in
arts administration um workingfor like what does that mean?
That's a super solid question.
So it's like all of the clericaland admin work behind getting

(10:34):
art into place.

SPEAKER_01 (10:35):
Oh, the sexy side of art.

SPEAKER_03 (10:37):
Yes, exactly.
So you get it.
I did that for a long time and Iworked in like some fine craft
gallery, and I worked at aLansing Art Gallery and
Education Center where um Iorganized and ran their gallery
shop and organized exhibitionsand things like that for a
while.
So I feel like I have like thisreally kind of interesting spot

(10:57):
where I have a foot on eitherside where I am a working
artist.
Shit.
We knew that was gonna happen.
That's when my strikes havestarted.
Okay, okay.

unknown (11:08):
Refocus.

SPEAKER_03 (11:09):
Um, say, so like kind of like a foot in the
business side and like a foot onthe artist side.
And not a lot of people haveboth.
So it felt like it kind of putme in like pretty much the
perfect position to have a shopbecause I've had all of this
like admin experience and thingsaround like running a business a
little bit.
And then I also bring in, say,what I do.
So yeah, that's how Dear Alleygot started.

(11:30):
Um, and I just did markets foryears, yeah.
From like 2015 through like2021.

SPEAKER_01 (11:38):
And it was just you.

SPEAKER_03 (11:39):
It was just me.
Yeah, just me, just doing myweird, silly shit and connecting
to people about it.
Yeah, dude, I love doingmarkets.
Wild.

SPEAKER_01 (11:49):
I love doing markets.

SPEAKER_03 (11:50):
Like it's a love, like it's a push-pull
relationship for sure.

SPEAKER_01 (11:54):
It is.
Well, so so for me, I got out ofthe out of the market game for
like, you know, just because itis so much free and work.

SPEAKER_03 (12:01):
It's so much work.

SPEAKER_01 (12:02):
Uh with honestly, like not that big of a payoff.
Always.
And like the fees are crazy andblah blah blah blah blah blah
blah.

SPEAKER_03 (12:07):
Well, and these days it's gotten even wilder.
Like, well, I'm uh I mean that'sour origin story is say we met
at markets way back in the daywhen I used to do that and say
that's what you were doing too.
Do you still do it any?
Do you sell your design work andshit like that anywhere like
that now?
No, yeah, it's hard.

SPEAKER_01 (12:23):
It is hard, and it's uh I do miss it because like it
there is something about likehanging out in a space where
everybody's kind of there forthe same thing, and then having
like a stranger tell you whysomething you made.
Yes, like that's all connectwith them?
That's insane.
There's not a feeling like thatin the world.

SPEAKER_04 (12:42):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (12:42):
So I do miss it for that kind of thing.
But I mean, for for us though,the podcast, we've we're we're
gonna connect in a new way.
Yeah, well, and and we're gonnastart doing markets to get out
and like what a better way to gomeet a bunch of awesome, like
driven, hungry creatives.

SPEAKER_03 (12:57):
That sounds great, you know?
Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 (13:00):
It's gonna be awesome.

SPEAKER_03 (13:01):
I love that.
That's such a good idea.
They put you right in the mix.

SPEAKER_01 (13:04):
That's it.

SPEAKER_03 (13:06):
That's great.

SPEAKER_01 (13:07):
Yeah.
Do you still do markets?

SPEAKER_03 (13:09):
I do very, very occasionally, and I do them now
as the shop.
So I haven't done any that arejust me, dear Ollie, in since I
opened the shop.
Oh, right on.
But I will do pop-ups that arebasically little mini pop-ups of
the shop at a couple ofdifferent places and things like
that.
Specif uh specifically aroundtown.

SPEAKER_01 (13:29):
What is what is the Lansing Creative scene like
right now?

SPEAKER_03 (13:31):
Oh, Lansing Creative Scene is will always be so, so
special to my heart.
We have such an incrediblecreative community.
And um we really get behind eachother, say it's very supportive.
Uh, say if I'm doing a workingon a project or something like
that, and I'm like, oh man, Ineed a second set of eyes on

(13:52):
this, or there's this one partthat I'm really stuck on, and I
want to talk to somebody aboutit.
There's always somebody you cantext or call or get together
with and noodle somethingaround.
Like it's the best.

SPEAKER_01 (14:03):
I love that.
I I got my start in Lancing, andI feel like I came in at a
really weird spot where um allof the creatives around me that
like I was kind of thrown intowith were all I mean, I was
probably the youngest by 15, 20years.

SPEAKER_04 (14:19):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (14:20):
And I was just like, I don't like any of this.

SPEAKER_03 (14:22):
That's so real.

SPEAKER_01 (14:24):
None of this is fucking fun.

SPEAKER_03 (14:25):
Well, I've kind of had a similar experience, but
for like a different reason,really, because uh I was really
young and in artsadministration.
So I was like right, like Iworked in uh um a Finecraft
gallery in East Lansing uh whenI first got out of high school
called Mackerel Sky Gallery.
And uh say they were a Finecraftgallery, but they also had like

(14:47):
a small rotating exhibitionspace.
And they had this built-in umdemographic that had just
followed the owners for such along time, and it was all of
their friends.
And so the demographic kind oflike aged with them, right?
So most of the artists who werecoming in, they weren't people
my age.
They're people, you know, say intheir 50s or 60s, or you know,

(15:10):
say it just differentgenerationally.
And so I never felt that bigconnection.

SPEAKER_01 (15:16):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (15:17):
But at the same time, it is some of those people
are like so foundational towhere I am today and have like
followed me throughout all ofthose different things.
Yeah, God, I love that, which isso cool.
Like there's this uh this onecool cat in Lansing called Ben
Graham, who I uh absolutelyadore, and he's a designer, and

(15:38):
he did the Mackerel Skynewsletter back in the day, and
we would um print it and send itout and mail it.
And um so I've known him since Iwas pretty much like 20 years
old.
And like he's still anytime Ihave an event at the shop, he
comes out.
Like anytime that like I'm outand about and I see him

(15:59):
somewhere, he's always like, Howare you doing?
How's this project?
How's that?
Like, just so supportive.
And uh I wouldn't change thatfor the world.
So some of those relationshipshave been really amazing.

SPEAKER_01 (16:10):
What what kind of events are you doing at the
shop?

SPEAKER_03 (16:12):
Oh, we've got all kinds of stuff.
Uh so we've been doing workshopsand things like that, of course,
because um love that.

SPEAKER_01 (16:18):
Get your hands dirty.

SPEAKER_03 (16:19):
Well, that and also, you know, retail in this fucking
hellscape is uh not exactly themost profitable business.
So but people are looking formore experiences still.
So we've been hosting workshopsand things like that.
And then um, we've got likethere are a few like of those
silly like calendar days whereit's like indie bookstore day or

(16:41):
stationary store day, sure,where they just sound like the
day that somebody just made up,but in reality, it really does
work as a way to get people inthe shop and to kind of
celebrate within your community.
And so um, my shop is a littleunique in the fact that it's
inside of another shop.
So my have a stationary shopinside of an indie bookstore,

(17:04):
which is very cool anddefinitely works, right?
Like those two things gotogether very well.
Um, but then so we get tocelebrate both indie bookstore
day and stationary store day.
And then we do different littlethings around them and stuff
like that.
We launch different t-shirtdesigns, do little drops of
merch.
Um, say last year for stationarystore day, we had um a friend in

(17:28):
the front screen printing, uhlancing postcards.
That's the coolest.
And then people could pull theirown postcard print and bring it
home.
And uh this last year we had areally, really fantastic event
for our birthdayslashanniversary for the shop.
Um, so we call ourselves kinshops.

(17:48):
They like two shops that sharethe same space and values but
operate independently, kinshops.
And uh so we had a kin shopbirthday book fair last year,
last September, which we aredefinitely doing again.
So we basically just recreated ascholastic book fair, but for um
adopting the best day.
That was the best day.

SPEAKER_01 (18:08):
It was the best day, just loading up on goosebumps
like a motherfucker.

SPEAKER_03 (18:13):
So great, exactly.
And I got to remake like thecatalog, like we made like a
catalog and printed it on thenewsprint and everything, like
so that it would feel and smelllike the old one.

SPEAKER_01 (18:22):
I can still like see that like scholastic catalog,
like is still be riding thathigh.

SPEAKER_03 (18:29):
Like we need it.
Any little piece of joy we cangrab, let's hold on to it tight.
So we're definitely gonna dothat again.
And that was super fun.

SPEAKER_01 (18:37):
God, that's all right.
So so when did you open theshop?

SPEAKER_03 (18:40):
In 2022.

SPEAKER_01 (18:43):
Okay, so you got through COVID at least.

SPEAKER_03 (18:47):
Well, say tricky, right?
Like, so when uh when the shopfirst opened, it was supposed to
just be a pop-up for theholiday.
Like, uh, so my friendsChristine and Elise, who own a
novel concept, they approachedme.
They had been in a businessincubator program in Lansing
called Middle Village Market,and they were looking for a

(19:09):
permanent space.
And they were like, Oh, youknow, we want to sell all your
stationery, want to sell allyour stuff.
And I was like, Yeah, it's socool.
And then somehow, like that justkind of um somehow devolved to
why don't you move in?
And I was like, all right, let'sgive it a shot.
And so the idea was I had apop-up there for just November
and December of the holidayseason, so I wouldn't have to do

(19:30):
markets and like carry my shiteverywhere.
So it was just my work in theshop, and uh it went over so
well.
And then I was like, this is myinn.
I have to take advantage of thiswhile I'm here.
I'm never gonna have one foot inlike this to a retail space.

(19:50):
And I uh wrote, wrote a grant,got it, and it was able to fund
um a whole bunch of inventoryand displays and things like
that.
And then we started stackingother people, and now I have
over a hundred different vendorsin that tiny space.
Yep, over a hundred differentvendors with a focus on women

(20:11):
and queer creators.
So uh I'm yeah, I'm pretty proudof how that's grown.

SPEAKER_01 (20:16):
That's incredible.
That sounds that feat soundsboth exciting and fucking
terrifying.

SPEAKER_03 (20:23):
Yes, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 (20:24):
How are you how are you keeping your head above
water?
Emotionally.
I don't care about your money.

SPEAKER_03 (20:31):
I'm talking well, it's all connected, right?
Like, say, and especially like,I mean, I grew up very like
lower middle class, poor, like,you know, like we could we could
get by, but we ate a lot ofspaghetti, like you know, like
uh, and say so.
The scarcity mindset aroundmoney is really, really hard,
and it definitely is built intoyou to as some sort of like

(20:54):
reflection of your worth, eventhough it isn't whatsoever.
It's not even a reflection ofsuccess, like, but it does, you
know, play a role, and that'salways hard.
But how am I keeping myemotional head above water?
I don't know, man.
Are you eat every day isdifferent?
Say most of the time I feel likeI'm doing pretty good at it, but
sometimes you sink right backin.

(21:14):
Yeah.
Say some days are harder thanothers.

SPEAKER_01 (21:17):
So through the shop, you're not only like giving
yourself a space to like be anduh create and and put your shit
out there, but you are kind oflike I don't know, kind of a
hub, I guess, or kind of aplatform for exposure for
obviously lots of other artists.
That's a that's a hugeresponsibility.

SPEAKER_03 (21:36):
Absolutely.
And we've also become just kindof like a hub and for our
community, and particularly likeour queer creative community in
Lansing.
Say, because we'll also have um,you know, between the kin shops,
we have like an open journalingnight, we have a writing club,
there's a book club.
These are all things that youcan do for absolutely no cost

(21:57):
that are a way to meet peopleand build community.
And it's been just absolutelyincredible to be the catalyst
for something like that.
Like it's this different feelingof pride than what you
experience over your own workbecause it's um it's bigger.

SPEAKER_01 (22:15):
Right, right.
So, like you have to have thatfeeling of like stepping back
and be like, look what I did.

SPEAKER_03 (22:20):
That and pretty much every time I feel like I'm
dipping my head underwater, likeyou were saying, all I've got to
do is the the why is so in theroom when the people are there.

SPEAKER_01 (22:30):
We've we've put on a few art markets, yeah, like as
the podcast, and and and we it'sthat feeling, it's that same
thing where I'm like, Oh my god,like what we.

SPEAKER_03 (22:38):
Look what we did.

SPEAKER_01 (22:39):
Isn't that that's wild?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (22:41):
Like that's a very, very cool thing.

SPEAKER_01 (22:44):
I know.
It's just it's just gnarly thatlike you're able to like build a
space that hosts tactilecreativity and that kind of
expression like still matters inthe space.
What do you think that means tothese artists who are putting
their stuff out?
And and fuck, what does it meanto you?

SPEAKER_03 (22:59):
I mean, you never want your art form to be a dying
thing.
Say I think that there's so muchjoy and uh pleasure in
continuing to uh kind of likesow the seeds for the next round
of people, so to speak.

SPEAKER_02 (23:17):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (23:17):
In some ways, like that's one thing that this isn't
like a direct answer to yourquestion, but my brain took it
there, anyways.
Uh, is that I've been talking uha lot recently about how I feel
like I'm kind of like aging outof certain things and like uh
I'm seeing the new newcreatives, younger folks 38.

(23:37):
I'm not older.
But like younger folks and theseyounger kids coming up and doing
all this stuff, and I'm justlike have this innate sense of
pride about it in this reallyweird way, where now I'm in a
role where I can support themand uplift their voices instead
of being the only one in theroom, which feels really good.

(24:01):
And it's so cool to see otherthings in the community where
you're like, oh damn, I wish Iwould have thought of that.
And then you're like, wait aminute, I actually have no
capacity to do that, nor am Iprobably the best person in the
room to do that.
But now I get to see these otherpeople do it and to just support
them through it.
I love that.

(24:21):
Dude, I used to have a differentlevel of cool.

SPEAKER_01 (24:24):
I used to look at um like other designers and
illustrators, creatives thatwould do something really
awesome.
And there was always like thispart of me that was like I could
do that better.
Well, that's but but now I'mkind of like fuck, that's cool.
Like I'm so stoked to like livein a space where like this is
happening, you know?

(24:45):
And it's like I'm just gonnadrink that in.

SPEAKER_03 (24:48):
Where like that first thought where it's like
this like almost level of FOMO,where you're like, oh my god, I
wish I would have thought ofthat, or that's such a good
idea, I could do it better, orlike, what if this and this?
But then to have the moregrounded thought of after you've
had your initial reaction andyou're like, oh, wait a minute.
No, I'm really thrilled thatthis is happening, and I

(25:10):
wouldn't do this.
So I'm so glad someone else is.

SPEAKER_01 (25:13):
I kind of I kind of feel like as as we get a little
bit older, you said you're 38,I'm 41.
So we're we're we're we'replaying in the same sandbox.
Um I'm more confident in myplace.

SPEAKER_03 (25:25):
That too.

SPEAKER_01 (25:26):
In in in the creative community that's like
around us.
Yes, um, for better or worse.

SPEAKER_02 (25:32):
Yes, true.

SPEAKER_01 (25:35):
Um, have you have you felt the AI crunch yet?

SPEAKER_03 (25:39):
Yes, of course.
I mean, how how can how can younot I don't know I don't know
that I have.
I d I don't know if so whenyou're crunch, it's are you
talking like is it likepersonally affecting you in like
these ways or anything likethat, like bottom line crunch?

SPEAKER_01 (25:55):
Or like like are you feeling it like like affect the
way that you do your work?

SPEAKER_03 (26:01):
I'm feeling it affect the way I feel about the
work a little bit.
And okay, so here I just got anemail like last week.
Um, so we run all of the shop onShopify, say, because it's super
super great.
I can take the same thing withme to sell at markets and shows

(26:22):
that I sell within Shop and ourwebsites the same platform.
They all talk to each other.
I only have to do one inventory.
It's fucking that's amazing.
Yes.
But I got like this notificationthat was buried underneath all
my other notifications onSpotify, or not Spotify,
Shopify.
I've wrong, horrible platform.
Um say she didn't mean that.

SPEAKER_01 (26:43):
She didn't mean that.

SPEAKER_03 (26:45):
No, no, no, you can cut that power out.
Uh say, but it was like buriedunderneath everything that now
all Shopify websites areavailable for use with agentic
AI.

SPEAKER_01 (26:59):
So the fuck does that mean?

SPEAKER_03 (27:01):
I literally would not know what it means if Jenny,
say, my girlfriend, my love,love of my life, uh just went
and did some work for aconference in San Francisco with
Stripe, the credit cardprocessing company.
And apparently all they talkedabout the whole time was this
agentic AI, which is basicallyit sounds like for people who
don't have to count every dollarthey spend, they can have the AI

(27:23):
shop for them as it learns them.
So the AI like crawls, therobots crawls websites or
something.
I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 (27:31):
They just buy stuff for you.

SPEAKER_03 (27:33):
Yeah, but like you have to physically, I had to
physically turn off like thebutton where it allowed checkout
somehow on this other platformthat has nothing to do with me,
and I have no idea how I'd getthe money or anything.
And there's no way to opt out ofit.
Like you can't prevent them fromlooking at your shit.
There's no opt-out.

SPEAKER_01 (27:52):
That's infuriating.

SPEAKER_03 (27:53):
Yeah.
And like I'm sure for somevendors and things like that,
that has a lot of privacypractice shit that like I'm sure
that they don't want, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (28:02):
Um, but yeah, I don't know that I've felt like
an actual crunch on like mybottom line or anything yet.
I'm sure it's coming becausebetter and better.
But it's like I kind of feellike that the clients that are
that would be like, oh, I couldI could just use AI to do what
you do.
Yeah, they were never gonnaappreciate what the fuck we're
bringing to the table anyway.

SPEAKER_03 (28:23):
Those people aren't our demographic to begin with.
These people who are jumping onthe AI bandwagon right away,
like in this level, those aren'tthe people who would have been
our clients in the first place.

SPEAKER_01 (28:32):
No, no, not at all.
And it's it's I don't know.
I don't I don't think I'mscared, but like I'm not
unaware.
Maybe I am a little nervous,maybe that's what I'm talking
about.

SPEAKER_03 (28:45):
I mean it's a part of it, right?
Say, I think it's okay to benervous.
Do I think that it needs to likethe anxiety has to control our
every single decision?
Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_01 (28:54):
But but I also kind of feel like there's gonna be
this like pendulum, right?
Where like we're we're beinginundated with this shit.
And I think that's where moretactile in-person events are
gonna be fucking king again.

SPEAKER_03 (29:10):
Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 (29:11):
I I don't know how soon that's gonna happen.
Well, I feel like it's alreadyhappening, but I'm craving it.

SPEAKER_03 (29:15):
Yeah.
I feel like uh in likepost-COVID days, say, with that
and then with all of these otherthings that are like kind of
forcing us to our screens sooften, uh it feels like more and
more people are reaching out forways.
And now you now you see on thescreens about how everyone's
going analog and uh all of that.

(29:36):
And I'm like, yes, welcome,come.
Do you need some stamps?

SPEAKER_01 (29:42):
Like um, so how are you balancing running a shop
with your kind of own creativeambitions and and uh
experiences?

SPEAKER_03 (29:57):
Well, say outside of the shop, say I uh I don't do as
much illustration work anymoresince I've had the shop because
capacity is low.
Uh, but I am still doing mymurals.
I started doing murals in 2019,and that was something that has
really kind of awakened likethis new kind of creative spark

(30:18):
in me in a way.

SPEAKER_01 (30:19):
Why do you just start doing murals?
Because that seems like afucking decision.
That is an undertaking.

SPEAKER_03 (30:25):
But it was also so fun because I spent so many
years designing for you know,something really small.
And then I was kind of like, oh,well, what if I made it like 20
times that size?
Right.
Like, and uh so it's it's reallyfun to not only I mean, like you
got kind of used to seeing yourwork on cards or on like these

(30:46):
other things that I started tomake, but to see your work on a
wall, that's very, very cool.
And um I started in 2019 with uha local business that was just
opening up called Social SlothCafe.
And they were my very firstmural, and I learned so much
immediately.
But it was this really sweetlocal business who was like

(31:08):
willing to let her figure itout, let me figure it out and
like pay me enough that I didn'tlike feel like any like
resentment or like it was likeuh a bad thing, but also enough
to reflect my skill level at itas well, which is always a
struggle.

SPEAKER_01 (31:26):
Yeah, dude, murals scare the shit out of me.

SPEAKER_03 (31:29):
Yeah, they should.
They're scary.

SPEAKER_01 (31:30):
Like, like I I That's not true.

SPEAKER_03 (31:32):
I mean, they're a little scary.

SPEAKER_01 (31:33):
I signed up to do one.
I everything's good, and I justmy nerves got the best of me.
And I was like, Really?
I was like, nope, I'm out, Ican't do it.
And that's what that's just oneof my biggest regrets.

SPEAKER_03 (31:44):
That's wild to me.
That doesn't seem like you atall.

SPEAKER_01 (31:47):
I'm delicate, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (31:48):
We're tender, we're very tender.

SPEAKER_01 (31:49):
That's it.

SPEAKER_03 (31:51):
It happened.
So there's nothing wrong withthat.

SPEAKER_01 (31:53):
So so what was it that like kind of pushed you
into that space where you'relike, I'm gonna fucking do this?

SPEAKER_03 (32:01):
I'm not sure or really say it's just I something
that I've always really admiredand always wanted to try.
And then one day I was like,let's just fucking try it.
Because like, if you don't justtry it, what are you what are
you doing?
Right?
Yeah and then You're gonnaregret it.
Well, that and like because whenyou start out, you don't have
any connections to the peoplewho you can ask the questions to

(32:22):
or anything like that.
So you have to start it, andthen once you do it, then your
world kind of opens up to allthese other people and other
other people with other skillsets that can help you do it
better.
And like, say uh Dustin Huntfrom Mural Maddox, he has been
an early cheerleader of mine.
He's somebody whose work I amwildly impressed with all the

(32:46):
time, and his ability tonavigate uh community
involvement and bringing peopleand bodies and kids into things,
like he's just doing such a goodjob.
And uh to then hear that you'redoing a good job from somebody
who you admire like that givesyou just enough of a little kick

(33:06):
in the ass where you're like, Ican do this.

SPEAKER_01 (33:08):
Yeah.
Fucking hey.
So so what is the what is themindset, I guess, to go from
something uh small and uhintimate and personal to
something very public-facing andthat is kind of screaming at
you?

SPEAKER_03 (33:23):
To be fair, I even think my small things were
screaming at you.

SPEAKER_01 (33:26):
I love that.
Fucking love that.

SPEAKER_03 (33:31):
Like all of my artwork is pretty niche, it's
pretty specific.
I like make a lot of things withreally weird animals, and then I
like pair them with like socialjustice statements or like you
know, there's just some sillybullshit, right?
Yeah, and uh I love it.
And then to be like, well, doesanybody want the silly bullshit

(33:52):
on your wall and want to give mea lot of money for it?
Uh definitely is different.
It's hard.
And there's an there's thisdefinite imposter syndrome that
like I mean, imposter syndromeis just such a real thing for
every creator.

SPEAKER_01 (34:08):
Well, it follows you wherever you go.
I'm pretty sure that like mostpeople get into selling tactile
goods, like prints or whatever,and they're like, this shit's
gonna take right off.
That never happens, right?
Is gonna like hit because likeyou feel good about your work,
you feel good about what you'redoing.
It's true, but it's like, allright, I'm gonna publish this
site, nothing, right?

(34:29):
It's so much easier, and I thinkmaybe this is why I like to go
into uh markets so much, andlike it like it's so much easier
to sell something face to facethan it is online because online
is just fucking noise.

SPEAKER_03 (34:40):
It is, and there's so much noise now that how do
you filter through it and get towhat you need, right?

SPEAKER_01 (34:45):
That's it.

SPEAKER_03 (34:46):
Say it's impossible.

SPEAKER_01 (34:47):
You know what I need is I need an AI bot to go
shopping for me.

SPEAKER_03 (34:54):
If you get to AI bot shopping for you uh income
levels, Aaron, you let me know.
I will, I'll let you know how Idid it.
And we'll talk more, we'll talkmore.

SPEAKER_01 (35:05):
Um, so so you've mentioned um a little bit about
being a neurodivergent creative,yeah, for sure.
Um strength, weakness.
How do you feel?

SPEAKER_03 (35:15):
Both, for sure.
Say, uh and what does it meanfor you?
The phrase neurodivergent?
Yeah.
Uh, that's a super solidquestion.
Well, I have um oh, yeah, let'stalk mental health.
Yeah, let's talk about that.
That's a thing, right?
So uh I was diagnosed with ADHDliterally just like a year and a
half ago.
Um, but I have had majordepression and general anxiety

(35:39):
disorder for my entireexistence.
Oh, same disease.
Yeah, right.
Like it's a pretty good, youknow, it's a classic combo.
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (35:48):
My baseline.

SPEAKER_03 (35:49):
It's yeah, exactly.
And so you're gonna be like realsad, and I'm gonna be real
worried about it.
Like and um having the ADHDdiagnosis has been pretty much
it's it's been so interesting tome to be able to put a name to
so many of the things that I'vefelt.

(36:10):
Like my ADHD medication in somany ways has actually helped
with my depression and my othermental health things, because so
many of them come from this likeinternalized shame of not being
able to do something like thequote unquote right way, or

(36:32):
like, why is it so much harderfor me than it is for everyone
else?
Everybody else seems to havecapacity for all these things.
How come I don't?
Or like, how come when you know,like I sit down to do something,
I am unable to finish a task?
Why can't I ever check anythingoff my list?
Like, you know, so much of itcomes back to a lot of those
things.
And so then being medicated forthe ADHD, I started completing

(36:56):
tasks.
I started building self-trustwith myself in a way that I
didn't really have before.

SPEAKER_01 (37:02):
That's huge.

SPEAKER_03 (37:03):
Yeah.
And um, and yeah, that's beenhuge for like my creative
process for executivefunctioning for all of it.
So uh yeah, highly recommendthat.

SPEAKER_01 (37:15):
Dude, I went in for um ADHD testing because I was
like, I everything I understand,this sounds pretty up my.
Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 (37:24):
Like I've got some of those flavors.

SPEAKER_01 (37:26):
You know, um, and uh apparently I went to a place
that a lot of people do notlike.
Um but they told me I had PTSD,and I was like from what they're
like, well, your childhood.
And I was like, And you're likebut what but from what?

SPEAKER_03 (37:48):
Like, do you do you feel like you had like a pretty
standard childhood?

SPEAKER_01 (37:52):
Nothing like there was no like specific like
traumatic event or anything likethat.

SPEAKER_03 (37:58):
Interesting, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (37:59):
And I'm like, are you is there somebody else yeah?

SPEAKER_03 (38:01):
You're like, this just doesn't feel quite like
wrong.
Like, I mean, there are so manydifferent reasons why somebody
could be diagnosed with PTSD anddifferent traumatic events in
your life that can happen thatcan trigger those kind of
responses, and complex PTSD isdefinitely a thing.
And but that doesn't seem likeit was super applicable for I
don't think it was, even alittle bit.

(38:24):
You're like, oh, that reallywasn't what I was here for, but
thank you.

SPEAKER_01 (38:27):
Yeah.
I had to spend two hours takingthat taking those fucking tests.
Oh, right.

SPEAKER_03 (38:31):
That's the thing.
The whole that being tested forADHD is an ADHD fucking trap.
Like all of the forms you haveto look at, everything you have
to fill out, how many times youhave to repeat the same
information.

SPEAKER_01 (38:44):
Like it's like, are you trying to trick me?

SPEAKER_03 (38:46):
It literally feels like it should be a fucking
trick.

SPEAKER_01 (38:48):
Yeah.
Like Yeah, and then and then thething where it's like you have
to like stop the oh god, whatwas it?
It's like you have to like stopthe um like when like a certain
like thing flashes or like acertain letter shows up, and now
it like you there's likedifferent buttons, and I'm like,
I'm I forgot what all of theseare wrong.
I'm doing them all wrong.
I know that.
Yes, I've gotten lost, I'm inthe weeds, things are bad.

SPEAKER_03 (39:11):
Uh we're doing bad.

SPEAKER_01 (39:14):
Like do you have an easier one?

SPEAKER_03 (39:18):
Can we less buttons?
I don't remember what thecontroller does.
Like can I take notes?
It's going too fast.
It's going too fast.
Right.
I'm feeling really anxious aboutit.
I don't think we can keep goingat this pace.

SPEAKER_01 (39:33):
Uh Sarah, is there anything else we should talk
about before we go topichopping?

SPEAKER_03 (39:36):
Ooh, uh I can uh talk a little bit about say the
things that I am creating forfun.

SPEAKER_01 (39:45):
I would love that.

SPEAKER_03 (39:46):
Say that's a thing that I don't get a chance to
talk about very often.

SPEAKER_01 (39:50):
Lay it on me.

SPEAKER_03 (39:51):
Say because um, okay, so when you make when your
go-to is painting andillustrating, and then you make
it your job, as you're familiarwith, it does become not the
thing that you turn to for thesame kind of creative release.

SPEAKER_02 (40:07):
Yeah, it's no longer relaxing.

SPEAKER_03 (40:09):
It's no longer the thing that you go to when you
want to feel good because it'swork.
And even though it's work thatwe enjoy, it's still it still
has that full that that on it,right?

SPEAKER_01 (40:21):
Yeah, and it's kind of funny because it's like you
work so hard to make the thingyou love your job, and then it
is like it kind of losessomething.
So like it takes a little bit ofextra.

SPEAKER_03 (40:31):
There are some days where I'm just ready to hang it
all up and be an office droneand not care about what I do.
But inevitably, that's probablynot the path I'm gonna take.
Um, but because of that, it I'vebeen reaching out more recently
to try to find things thataren't work that bring me that
same kind of creative joy.

(40:53):
And um I I've been uh been doinga lot of paper mache.
I've been enjoying paper mache.

SPEAKER_01 (41:01):
Awesome.

SPEAKER_03 (41:02):
Um, I've become really interested in scanners.

SPEAKER_01 (41:08):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (41:11):
Like I have a flatbed scanner from, you know,
like the early 2000s.
Yep.
That I'm very much in love with.
And I've been making likescanner collages and stuff like
that, like right on theflatbeds.
That's very cool.
And that's like really fun.
And then for Christmas this lastyear, Jenny got me, it was like

(41:31):
a five dollar like marketplacefind.
Uh, she got me a magic wandscanner, which is a portable
scanner that's just likeliterally like a little wand,
and you carry it around, andthen you can scan anything.

SPEAKER_01 (41:46):
Yeah, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 (41:47):
So, like I'm scanning like carpets and walls
and flyers and like dirt andlike rocks and like all kinds of
stuff, and then using thosetextures for different things,
and then that's super fun.
Those are those are definitelymy main two sources of joy right
now are scanning.
God, that's all scanning inpaper mache.

SPEAKER_01 (42:08):
I feel like that's what I get out of painting right
now because like like that's notmy um A, I don't get to do it
nearly as often as I but that ismy like okay, like I want to
have fun while I'm like creatingsomething.

SPEAKER_04 (42:22):
Not that like commercial art isn't fun, but
also it is it's it's it's justgot the butt attached to it,
right?

SPEAKER_01 (42:29):
Right.
Um, I don't know, it's just it'sjust hard sometimes to feel like
an artist and not a product.

SPEAKER_03 (42:37):
Yes, you know, very much so.

SPEAKER_01 (42:38):
That's a that's a fucking struggle because like I
said, I love what I do.
I'm so fucking lucky to do it.

SPEAKER_03 (42:42):
Yeah, and you're good at it.

SPEAKER_01 (42:44):
Thank you.
Thank you.
I got the compliment I wasfishing for.

SPEAKER_03 (42:47):
Oh, look at that.

SPEAKER_01 (42:49):
You want to go topic hopping?

SPEAKER_03 (42:51):
All right, let's go.

SPEAKER_01 (42:52):
When you're gone, what do you hope people say
about you?

SPEAKER_03 (42:55):
Like just when I leave the room or like when I'm
dead.

SPEAKER_01 (42:58):
When you're dead.

SPEAKER_03 (42:59):
When I'm dead, oh I hope they don't think about me
too much.
Like that feels like a lot ofpressure.

SPEAKER_01 (43:04):
Um nothing.
I just want to just go away.

SPEAKER_03 (43:09):
No, not necessarily.
Um, I hope to be celebrated forthe way that I can bring people
together and connect withpeople.
I love that.
I I hope that they're like,yeah, that bitch could put the
right people in the right room.

SPEAKER_01 (43:23):
Finish the thought.
Creativity requires endurance.
Go on.

SPEAKER_03 (43:29):
Uh because it's not always easy.
It's one of those things thatum, even when it is easy,
endurance is still somethingthat you need.
A, because if you want it tokeep going for the long haul,
say is starting a creative habitis just like any skill.
You have to nurture it and buildit up, and that takes endurance

(43:49):
and time and patience.

SPEAKER_01 (43:51):
And real energy.

SPEAKER_03 (43:52):
And real energy, like mental energy, physical
energy, like depending on whatyou're doing, it can take every
single type of it.
Uh, and so I also think though,say endurance is probably solid
because if you are a creativewho cannot endure these days,
you're not going to be doingthat for very long.

(44:14):
Yeah, unfortunately, becauseit's hard to and uh say anywhere
where you are a person who areputting out creative work, a
piece of yourself, a small pieceof your heart, a small piece of
your soul, whether it's in a acorporate logo campaign or
whether it's painting somethingthat you saw in your dreams,

(44:36):
like it literally.
Say there's somebody out therewho's gonna tell you it's bad.

SPEAKER_01 (44:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (44:41):
So, but then there's somebody out there who you're
gonna connect with about likethe silliest thing.
Like, I'll like I said, I drawreally weird animals, and
sometimes there'll be somebodywho comes in and they're like,
Oh my god, I'm studying, I'mwriting my thesis on this bat
right here, this one.
And I'm like, really?
That one?
And I'm like, I drew that.
And they're like, I know.

(45:03):
And I was like, let's talk aboutbats.
Oh, that's awesome.
It's very cool.

SPEAKER_01 (45:09):
Uh, what would your last meal be?

SPEAKER_03 (45:11):
It's not gonna be a meal of big sustenance, uh, but
it would probably be likeItalian food and ice cream, like
like a really fucking goodsourdough.
So in uh 2016, I developed agluten allergy.

SPEAKER_01 (45:28):
So you just you're just going for it.
You're like, I'm going outanyways.

SPEAKER_03 (45:32):
Yeah, fuck it.
Say, I don't need to worry aboutwhere the bathroom is.
Take me out.
Oh, I'll be right back.
Let's go.
Yeah.
Getting older is great when youcan't have your favorite things
anymore.

SPEAKER_01 (45:44):
Oh, too real.

SPEAKER_03 (45:45):
Ice cream ice cream I can still have.
Say, I don't have anything withdairy.
So good.

SPEAKER_01 (45:50):
Um, what's the what's the best or the worst
advice you've ever received?

SPEAKER_03 (45:56):
Probably the worst advice uh that I've ever
received is to pick one thingand do it for the rest of your
life.

SPEAKER_01 (46:04):
Yeah, that sounds boring as shit.

SPEAKER_03 (46:06):
Right.
What the fuck?
Who does that?
Um, say, you know, we have thismindset around us, and I think
that as creatives, we alsoespecially fight it.
Like when you're in like thatcollege level where you're like,
oh, you're being told that youhave to get something, you have
to go towards the degree.
It's the degree you're gonnahave for the rest of your life.
It's this gonna paint this pathfor you down the road.

(46:27):
I uh They were all lying, by theway.
They were all lying, and for ayoung neurodivergent creative,
it was a trap.
I was I got stuck in communitycollege for seven years.

SPEAKER_01 (46:41):
Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 (46:42):
Yeah, say, like quite literally, because A, I
was too poor to go to like auniversity, and then um, I had
no idea what I wanted to do forthe rest of my life.
I didn't know what I wanted towear that day.
Like, I didn't like you know,but I mean, like, I'm uh I I
always say that you can like theminute that you start to know me

(47:04):
in any of my identities, you'relike, that's a girl who doesn't
want to make decisions.
I'm like queer, neurodivergent,polyamorous, like say I want all
of it all the time.
Yeah.
And I want to somehow be verygood at all of it too.

SPEAKER_01 (47:20):
Like it sounds stressful.

SPEAKER_03 (47:23):
It it it is.
It is.
Say I'm uh I have a hard timelike starting new things and
being bad at them.
I would like to be bad at morethings.
Yeah, I would like to learn howto be bad at more things.

SPEAKER_01 (47:35):
I love that.

SPEAKER_03 (47:36):
Because I I start something and I immediately kind
of get this like sense of likebeing a little indignant if I'm
not immediately good at it.
Like, ugh, why?
Oh, this isn't for me.
This is like why isn't it doingthat?
That's uh that's not supposed todo that.

SPEAKER_01 (47:52):
Say that's it, you know, like I started cutting
into blocks and I was like, ugh,this isn't for me.
Oh, so and I bet you anything,if I had stuck with it, it would
have been just fine.
But I was like, this is kind ofaccurate.

SPEAKER_03 (48:03):
I suck at this.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (48:06):
Uh what's your walk-up song?

SPEAKER_03 (48:09):
My walk-up song?

SPEAKER_01 (48:10):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (48:11):
I don't know why, but something by Beastie Boys
just popped into my head.
I love that.
I don't know.
Just like that vibe checks outflu.
I don't know.
Like awesome.

SPEAKER_01 (48:21):
Uh, what makes you feel most like yourself?

SPEAKER_03 (48:24):
My people.

SPEAKER_01 (48:25):
Yeah?

SPEAKER_03 (48:26):
Yeah.
I could wax poetic about mypeople for like a really long
time.
I've uh my life in recent yearshave gone through incredible
amounts of transition.
Um, I was in a monogamousrelationship for 19 years with

(48:48):
my high school sweetheart.
And now I uh am moving through adivorce.
They we're separated.
I uh have my own business, I ammaking my own choices.
I have um a girlfriend who isthe absolute love of my life and

(49:11):
makes me better every singleday.
I have an incredible communityof creative people around me uh
that are caring for me in a waythat I truly have never felt
before.
Like um, we have these twowonderful friends who um have
started hosting Sunday dinnersjust whenever we can.

(49:32):
And I cannot tell you how much Ilook forward to Sunday dinner.
It's huge.
And it's huge.
And just to know that there arepeople there who um who want to
support you and want to uh carefor you in the way that you want
to be cared for is reallyspecial.

SPEAKER_01 (49:54):
And rare.

SPEAKER_03 (49:55):
And rare because I think that uh I don't know, we
talk a lot about like what carelooks like and things like that,
and it looks different foreverybody, but like if you love
someone and you care for themonly in the way that is how you
would like to receive care, thenyou potentially aren't caring
for that person.

(50:15):
Yeah, you're not showing up foryou're not showing up for them
in the way that they would need,right?
So having these people who umwell, A, I just guess being at a
point in my life where I'm ableto articulate those needs too,
right?
A figure them out myself andthen articulate them, uh, and
then receive them, that shit'swild.
Yeah.

(50:36):
Like Yeah, I I uh told Randy andKim, who are our Sunday dinner
friends, I was like, y'all arelike breaking me and putting me
back together in the best ofways.

SPEAKER_01 (50:45):
It's like a sense of family kind of.

SPEAKER_03 (50:47):
It is.
It definitely definitely is.

SPEAKER_01 (50:50):
I'm a big, I'm a big proponent of the idea of chosen
family.
Me too.
You know, there's so much blooduh that I just I don't need
them.
I don't miss them, I don't wantthem.
It's hard.
Uh but then there's people, myfriends in my life, who I would
kill for.

SPEAKER_03 (51:08):
Exactly.
You're like, I would move themoon for you, like literally
anything you needed in aheartbeat.
Say, and I've I'm I'm definitelya recovering people pleaser.
Yeah.
Oh dude.

SPEAKER_01 (51:22):
And so our paths are just this.

SPEAKER_03 (51:24):
Yeah, right.
So, like, I feel like for surethere are times where I it's not
linear, right?
Nothing is.
Yeah.
Um, so there's definitely timeswhere I will find myself falling
into like a pattern or somethingthat I know isn't the best for
me, but now I can notice it.
And I gotta tell you, noticingdidn't realize how much of the
work that was.

(51:45):
That's just like, oh hey, that'sa thing.
And uh then if you have ADHDwriting it down someplace where
you will remember that you wroteit down, yeah, that's helpful
too.

SPEAKER_01 (51:58):
Um, do you have any regrets?

SPEAKER_03 (52:01):
No.

SPEAKER_01 (52:04):
Uh bullshit.

SPEAKER_03 (52:06):
Bullshit?
Yeah.
Uh not big picture ones, littleones, yeah.
Little regrets, but not everanything that like is like a
change your life trajectory.
So you don't have to ask this.

SPEAKER_01 (52:21):
I was just bullying you a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 (52:23):
And I'm immediately like, okay, let me find one.
It was a test and you failed.
No, say not any large, likemajor life regrets.
Say things that I would dodifferently now or decisions
that I wouldn't make now thatwould have made my life easier
if I hadn't made them then.
Of course.

(52:44):
Yeah, exactly.
But it doesn't feel likeanything that's like this uh, I
don't have anything hanging overme, like a be-all, like if I
would have done thisdifferently.
One of my big goals for thisyear is to get my uh retirement
plan set up because I never didthat, and that's a regret.
Yeah.
I do wish I did that earlier.

SPEAKER_01 (53:03):
I think you're ahead of me.

SPEAKER_03 (53:05):
Really?
Oh, I'm ahead of somebody.
I like retirement was just likenever a thing that was talked
about in my home growing upwhatsoever, because again, like
it just wasn't an option.

SPEAKER_01 (53:19):
You know, I've almost become like resigned to
the idea that I will just neverretire.
I love doing what I'm doing.
You know, it's not alwayslucrative.

SPEAKER_03 (53:28):
No.
Um I had a friend recently tellme who was like helping me with
some budget things.
They're like, you're actuallynot bad with money, you're just
bad at bringing it in.

SPEAKER_01 (53:39):
They're like, okay.

SPEAKER_03 (53:40):
Okay.
They're like, once you like thewhat you have, you can manage
very well.
And I'm like, that's becausethere is so little of it.
Uh and I'm desperate to hang onto it.
And I am desperate to hang on toit.
Um, so I've had to do that, butlike my skill set does not lie
within bringing in money.
So um, if anyone would like togive me money, you can.

(54:02):
Um, I you can exchange it forgoods or services, or you can
just give it to me because youthink I'm really pretty.
It's a compliment.

SPEAKER_01 (54:11):
So this is my last question, and it's really funny
coming off of your laststatement.

SPEAKER_03 (54:16):
I have no dignity left.
So that's not that's not wherewe're at anymore.

SPEAKER_01 (54:20):
Are you okay?

SPEAKER_03 (54:25):
Uh really not all.
Really?
No.
Like, I'm okay.
Um I knew you were gonna askthis, right?
Obviously.
And I was like, he's gonna askme if I'm okay.
And I was like, it's literallygonna depend on how I feel in
that moment.
Yeah.

(54:46):
And in this moment, I feelpretty okay, but as an
overarching statement, I do notfeel okay.

SPEAKER_01 (54:52):
Like what are you doing to take care of yourself?

SPEAKER_03 (54:54):
Um, paper mache and scanning.

SPEAKER_01 (54:56):
Yeah.
All the stuff we talked about.
All the stuff we talked about.

SPEAKER_03 (54:59):
Paper mache scanning, spending time with the
people that I love, goingoutside.
Uh those are all things that arewildly important.
Um, surrounding myself withpeople who will embrace the
whimsy.

SPEAKER_01 (55:20):
I'm thinking like whimsy versus like judgment,
right?
It's like you neither get likeone or the other.

SPEAKER_03 (55:24):
Ooh, I like that.
I don't.

SPEAKER_01 (55:26):
I just want the whimsy.

SPEAKER_03 (55:27):
I just want the whimsy, but like using judgment
as an antithesis of whimsy isreally interesting.
And I I like that thatconceptually.

SPEAKER_01 (55:38):
Um before we wrap it up, uh, where can people find
you?

SPEAKER_03 (55:41):
People can find me in downtown Lansing, Michigan,
inside a novel concept.
And online.
I guess that's the one that youreally wanted.
But like I'd rather be in thewoods.
Um, but you can also find meonline on Instagram.
Say uh all my mural shit andpersonal stuff is at Sarah
Pulver, just my name.

(56:02):
And you can follow.
No H Sarah with no H.
Thanks for asking.
I feel like uh that I I need noH thanks for asking as like a
button that I wear.
Uh I could make that.

unknown (56:17):
Say.

SPEAKER_03 (56:22):
Um, and then say for shop things, uh, we're on
Instagram at Dear Ollie Co.
or you can find us atdearOllly.com.
You can shop online.
You can shop in your underwearand I'll ship it to you.
Um, you can shop online and thencome see me and pick it up in
store, and uh we can have aconnection over a weird animal.

SPEAKER_01 (56:44):
All right.
You're trailing and we're gonnago.
All right.
Now let's get out of here.

SPEAKER_03 (56:50):
There we go.
Chicken part of you and allthese noises in my head.

SPEAKER_02 (56:56):
I can't seem to make them go away.

SPEAKER_01 (57:01):
Bad Idea Social Club is an independent podcast made
possible by merch sales,reviews, and listener support.
It is created and hosted by me,graphic designer Ann McCall, and
co-hosted by photographer JoeMadison.
Music is noises by Mike Matesand the branches.
Get Bad Idea Social Clubwherever you get your podcast.