May 22, 2026 • 51 mins
Jordan West thinks most brands are sleepwalking toward irrelevance while creators are building the next marketing empire in plain sight. In this episode of Bald Ambition, Mookie dives headfirst into the chaotic evolution from “influencer marketing” to what Jordan calls “word of mouth at scale” — a creator-driven ecosystem where TikTok Shop, algorithms, authenticity, and raw capitalism collide. Jordan, founder of the Social Commerce Club, breaks down why old-school advertising is dying, why giant brands like Nike and Lululemon are struggling to adapt, and why millennial moms — not Gen Z influencers — are quietly becoming the most powerful sales force on the internet.
The conversation tears apart the old PR-and-brand-control mentality and replaces it with something messier, faster, and far more effective: creators with leverage. Jordan explains how TikTok fundamentally changed the relationship between brands and audiences by rewarding compelling content instead of follower counts, turning ordinary people into decentralized sales networks. Mookie agrees from the perspective of a working creator himself, venting about Instagram’s clunky algorithms, YouTube’s SEO obsession, and the bizarre reality that the exact same video can explode on TikTok while flatlining everywhere else. Together, they unpack why TikTok’s recommendation engine remains miles ahead of the competition, why creators are now more valuable than traditional agencies, and how the smartest brands are learning to surrender control instead of micromanaging messaging.
Along the way, the discussion spirals into the economics of virality, the psychology of creators chasing reach like a dopamine hit, the future of paid social advertising, and how TikTok Shop may ultimately become less of a “store” and more of a real-time global focus group powered by creators who instinctively know what audiences actually want. Jordan argues that creators are replacing entire layers of market research, product testing, and customer feedback loops — while Mookie compares modern social platforms to a never-ending casino where the algorithm occasionally hands creators just enough success to keep them addicted.
Their convo is part marketing strategy, part cultural autopsy, part rant session about why giant corporations often move too slowly to survive in the creator economy. If you’ve ever wondered why TikTok feels fundamentally different from every other social platform, why traditional advertising keeps getting more expensive and less effective, or why your favorite brands suddenly sound like they’re trying way too hard to be “online,” this episode connects the dots and offers a view into a fast and fun future.
The Guest
Jordan West is an entrepreneur, marketer, and founder of Social Commerce Club, a fast-growing agency focused on TikTok Shop and creator-driven commerce. After building multiple e-commerce brands, Jordan shifted into helping companies navigate the exploding creator economy, connecting brands with creators to drive sales through what he calls “word of mouth at scale.” Known for his blunt, forward-looking takes on digital marketing, Jordan specializes in TikTok Shop strategy, creator partnerships, and social commerce growth. Through his podcast, consulting, and agency work, he helps brands adapt to a world where creators and algorithms increasingly shape consumer behavior more than traditional advertising ever could.
His Agency
https://socialcommerceclub.com/
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Hello and welcome back to Bald Ambition.
I'm still bald, but the one withambition today is Mr.
Jordan West.
He's the founder of the SocialCommerce Club.
I can't wait to talk to youabout TikTok and its evolution,
especially for influencermarketing.
Welcome aboard, Jordan.
SPEAKER_00 (00:20):
Thank you so much for having me.
Really looking forward to this.
I uh I am, yes, I'm the one withambition today and still some
hair.
Um uh as of now, I'll tell you.
SPEAKER_01 (00:31):
I know.
I'm often reminded of this uhthis delta, and and you got a
nice buffant there.
If you're on video, you can seeJordan's plough, and if you're
on audio, you can use yourimagination.
I'm obvious obviously operatingfrom a pretty pretty basic
baseline.
So, you know, Jordan, Jordan'sstepping up in terms of the
follicular count.
(00:52):
And you're also stepping up interms of empowering influencers
on TikTok.
Now, a little bit of background,I'm on TikTok too.
I'm a micro influencer, I've gotabout 17,000, 17,500 followers.
Awesome, and maybe about 300,000likes.
So I'm, you know, just hovering.
Yeah, I'm I'm poking theecosystem.
(01:15):
And I've noticed changes insocial media.
I've noticed changes in theevolution of influencers and
their relation to brands andstorytelling.
And of course, TikTok's goingthrough its own changes with new
ownership as well.
Can you give us some context andshow us what value you provide?
The uh the TikTok universe, thetick, the TikTok sphere.
SPEAKER_00 (01:40):
So interesting that you talk about influencers,
right?
And I think that that's theworld that a lot of us have
grown up in over the lastprobably 15 years of maybe not
even quite that long withInstagram, and then Instagram
morphing into uh into TikTok,right?
And and a bunch of the, youknow, sort of young people going
over to TikTok and spending somuch time there and TikTok's
(02:02):
algorithm being absolutelycrazy.
It's created this wholeinfluencer ecosystem.
I'm actually not here to talkabout influencers today.
What I'm here to talk about iscreators, right?
And this really big shift frominfluencer marketing, from
top-down marketing, brandmarketing into word of mouth at
scale.
(02:23):
And that's really what happenedwith TikTok Shop.
Uh, I got interested in TikTokshop about two years ago.
I owned a bunch of brands.
I've owned eight differentbrands over time, mostly all in
apparel.
Uh, and we sold our last brand,and then we had one of our
brands go bankrupt.
And I had no more brands left.
And I had the small agency onthe side.
(02:44):
And I was like, you know what?
This is a really interestingopportunity.
I saw TikTok shop come around.
And what I realized is that itwas the first time that we found
a win-win between creators or orwhat we were calling at the time
influencers and brands.
Before that, I hated workingwith influencers.
The reason I hated working withthem is, and just so everyone
(03:05):
knows, like I also, you know, inthe business world, do the
influencer thing.
I've got about 30,000 followerson LinkedIn.
So I get bright, like I getdeals from software companies
all the time.
And I will tell you, it's reallyhard to create a win-win, right?
It's really hard where it'slike, what kind of value are you
gonna get versus me selling mysoul to you to talk to my
(03:27):
audience?
Right.
And so suddenly TikTok shop camearound and it was the perfect
marriage between these creators,the algorithm, right?
The algorithm that was notfollower-based.
So it didn't really matterwhether you had influence over
anyone or not.
It just mattered whether youknew how to go viral or not and
talk about products.
And suddenly there was like thismarriage between brands and
(03:49):
products, sorry, creators andbrands, and they actually
somehow created a win-win, whichI'm just all about figuring that
part out because that's how youcreate scale, right?
At one point, if someone'strying to screw the other
person, you can't really createscale, right?
You're going to have a businessrelationship that's going to,
I'm sure people have had thatout there before where it's
(04:09):
like, okay, well, I got screwedby this person, I'm never going
to work with them again.
And that was happening withinfluencers all the time.
It was always, always roulette.
So I'll I'll pause there for asecond because I could just keep
talking this whole time.
SPEAKER_01 (04:20):
So that's a great contextual setup because um I'm
older school, I've donemarketing for big brands too,
and this idea of the influencerhas been pivotal.
And the shift to creator isgreat because it's about
intentionality.
If you're a creator, you're outthere pumping content, you've
got a point of view, you've gotyour own style, and you're not
(04:43):
overtly trying to changebehaviors or ostensibly
manipulate, you're just sharing.
And it sounds to me like you'retapping into this natural energy
and zeitgeist of folks who aresharing whatever talent,
whatever point of view theyhave, and then contextualizing
it within the shop.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_00 (05:04):
Don't and so what I like to call it is word of mouth
at scale, right?
It was like the first time Iremember this when we owned
brands, where it was like, howdo we manufacture word of mouth?
And like the best way, justeveryone knows to manufacture
word of mouth is to have a goodproduct, right?
Like, look at the Teslas and theApples of the world, right?
Like, who just have greatproducts that you're like, well,
(05:25):
I want to like for the longesttime, Apple never paid for any
product placement because peoplewanted to have the Apple logo in
their movies or in whatever theywere doing to show that they
were cool, right?
So product is the number one wayto get word of mouth at scale,
right?
This is to me the way to thenactually systematize that,
(05:46):
right?
And it's starting with TikTokshop, but it's not stopping
right there.
Like the agency that I that Ifounded, it's called Social
Commerce Club, not TikTok ShopClub, right?
Because social commerce is whatwe call this new world where
creators are doing the marketingfor you.
Like we we talk to brands allthe time.
We're like, your job is not tosell a product to the end
(06:06):
consumer, your job is to sell aproduct to the creator.
And if the creator buys in, thenyou get them.
I I joke, I'm like, it's kind oflike the MLM of 2026.
Like, like your whole job is tocreate this pyramid, right?
Of people selling to people togetting them on board.
Like, that's the whole thing.
So, like, if you're a potentialcult leader, this is like you
(06:27):
this is exactly what you want todo.
SPEAKER_01 (06:30):
So, how does it how does it happen?
When I cracked like 10,000followers, then I got a bunch of
messages and invites, and I'veseen TikTok shop, and then I get
invites from brands.
Often I don't even know what todo with them, and I haven't
really integrated thatrelationship into my content.
(06:53):
So, where do you step in?
How do you help?
Who do you help?
And what kind of value do youprovide within not the
influencer ecosystem, but thisnew creator reality of word of
mouth and brand identification?
SPEAKER_00 (07:13):
So on TikTok shop, there are 3.7 million creators
that are signed up throughTikTok shop, right?
I'm sure that at some point yougot an email and it was like,
hey, I'm gonna become a TikTokshop creator.
Like you're eligible to become acreator.
And so the problem is there'sout of these 3.7 million
(07:34):
creators, it is the Paretoprinciple, the 8020 of the 8020
of the 8020 of the ones that canactually sell and have figured
it out.
Now, I think that it's going toget better and better.
I think that as education comesaround, there's some stuff that
we've got.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:51):
Yeah.
I'm I'm at the top end of thatfunnel, 8020, 8020.
I think I got only a few layersin.
You're at like 79, 70.
Yeah, 79.5.
SPEAKER_00 (08:01):
And I'm like, what am I supposed to do?
Well, because it's a new musclefor both brands and creators,
right?
That's the problem, is thatwe've never really had this
before.
SPEAKER_01 (08:11):
But and no support.
I mean, you got the app, it'ssitting there looking at you,
and you start tapping, and thentotally.
SPEAKER_00 (08:19):
So that's on the on the on the creator side, right?
So for us, we're really obsessedwith how do brands actually find
these creators that actuallyknow how to sell?
Like, how do they createessentially a sales team for
them on TikTok shop?
And that's what what what we'rereally obsessed with is like,
how do we find these creatorsthat are doing really great
(08:40):
work?
Our next thing that that Ipersonally will be obsessed with
is how do I then train creatorsto be better creators, right?
And actually talk aboutproducts.
For me, it's funny, like, youknow, coming from owning all
these brands and agencies andall this sort of stuff.
I have really, at the end of theday, I am just a salesperson.
Like I love selling product, butonly stuff that I really believe
(09:02):
in.
Like, even when when uh youknow, when brands or software
companies will come to me, Ialways try the product out and
I'm like, do I actually likethis?
I'll just talk about productsthat I love.
And that's what these creatorsare incredibly good at.
They see a product and they'relike, oh, I know exactly how to
fit this in.
So interestingly, this is agreat soundbite for you.
Interestingly, the best creatorson the platform.
Can you guess who they are?
(09:23):
Can you guess demographics-wise?
What they what do they looklike?
Who are they?
Gen Z female.
No, no, Gen Zs suck.
There's another soundbite foryou.
Gen Z suck.
No, it is millennial moms.
Because that's actually theother extreme, right?
Yeah.
So who knows who is the onethat's talking about the most
(09:46):
amount of products?
Number one has the mostpurchasing power, is buying the
most amount of things, needs toconstantly be looking for
different things for theirfamily.
It's the millennial moms.
They know how to sell.
Plus, they've had enough timeonline, right?
They've probably had the mostamount of time online of anyone
because they were early adoptersof Instagram and Facebook,
probably first Facebook, thenInstagram.
(10:07):
I am married to a beautifulmillennial mom.
Digital native.
Totally.
And so they already understandhow to build these things up.
Now, the again, the the bigreason why we do not call these
people influencers is becausethey are selling themselves
constantly, right?
An influencer has to be reallycareful about what they put out
to their audience.
Now, the way that the TikTokalgorithm works, and I'm sure
(10:29):
you know, it is content-based,right?
It's content focused.
And so it doesn't really matterwhether you've got a great
following or not, right?
In fact, it's probably better ifyou don't.
Because so one reallyinteresting thing with creators
is they actually want to workwith the same brand or sorry,
with the same type of productwith different brands.
(10:50):
They're totally fine reppingCoke and Pepsi together.
That's just wild, right?
Like, why would they be okaywith that?
But they are, they're totallyfine with that because at the
end of the day, they just wantto bring cool products forward.
And even if it's so if they findtwo in the same category, versus
an influencer would never dothat.
They would never sell out.
(11:11):
The brand would not want them todo that.
No, but in this new world ofsocial commerce, it's the
creators that actually have allof the leverage, right?
They're the ones that have theleverage over the brand.
It's wild.
SPEAKER_01 (11:25):
It's a fascinating distinction.
Um, I I grew up in old schoolPR, and I actually worked for
some of the big agencies inManhattan.
Fun rep reputation, fun, fun,fun.
And then the reputation waseverything.
It's all you're one, you're onearticle, you're one phone call,
you're one bad message away fromcomplete brand destruction.
(11:50):
And you're you're walking aroundon pins the whole time.
And this new perspective,exactly like you described, it's
a fluid natural environmentwhere people are sharing
content.
The waterfall is is actually atsunami, and it's about
operating at scale in a way thatempowers the distributor, the
(12:11):
creator of content rather thanthe brand, which needs to be
protected.
SPEAKER_00 (12:16):
I I wish what we could do right now is go on to
ChatGPT and look at thesemassive behemoth brands and how
much their stock is down rightnow.
Right.
And the reason I uh right now,by the way, I'm I'm doing an
audiobook on this.
Reason why I'm doing anaudiobook is it's just so much
faster.
And so I'm going through this inpart of the beginning part of
(12:38):
the audiobook of all of thesebrands that are down massive
amounts right now because theydo not understand that they
cannot control their narrativeanymore, right?
The narrative is in the hands ofthe people, right?
When Instagram came out, right,it started to be like, okay,
well, we can control thenarrative.
We can, we can, you know, likewith PR, right?
It's like you're constantlycontrolling the narrative.
(12:59):
You cannot do that anymore.
You have no more control overthe narrative.
And so the control that you haveis over your creators, at least
talking about your products,right?
And the way that you treat yourcreators.
The brands that crush that wework, and we work with a lot of
like really big Fortune 500companies at Social Emerce Club.
We're we're the as of thismonth, we should be the number
(13:19):
one agency as far as GMV on theentire platform.
Uh GMV just being revenue push.
So we we do know what we'redoing, we know how this works,
we know how to work with thesemassive brands when it comes to
this.
And it's really, really fun.
But also the majority of thesehuge brands are so scared to
give up control of the message,right?
And they want to see everysingle, every single item that
(13:41):
comes through.
And the problem is it's notgoing to work, right?
It's not going, they're going toget left behind.
Look at Lulu, look at Nike,look, look at them this year.
Right.
Like we're we're also we're thetop uh fashion agency.
We won top fashion agency thisyear at TikTok.
And those those big behemothsare moving too slow, right?
It's not like it's not workingfor them.
(14:03):
Um, they need this new word ofmouth at scale, right?
That's the that's the issuebecause there's all of these
fighter brands that are comingup and and absolutely crushing
them that because they can movefaster, right?
They're working with creators,they can move faster, their
messaging shifts with howcreators talk.
It's wild.
SPEAKER_01 (14:21):
And disruption and humor, and usually the things
that were kryptonite for PR formajor brands because they
heightened risk, is thelifeblood of a lot of this
stuff.
Look at liquid death.
Yes, yes, really good example.
Brand, zany social stuff,creators going nuts with the
(14:42):
product, user-generated left andright.
It's just uh it's a can ofwater, man.
SPEAKER_00 (14:49):
It's water, it's water, it's a really good brand
to look at, right?
When you're looking at atstudies of like what to do as a
brand, right?
And and how it's uh so I've runI've run a podcast for years.
At first, it was called Secretsof Scaling or E-Commerce Brand.
When I went all in on TikTokShop, it's now called the
unofficial TikTok shop podcast,just because I really love, I
(15:09):
really love talking about that.
And there's not a lot of peopleout there in the space that
know, but I had the opportunityto interview the CMO of Liquid
Death before they were huge.
SPEAKER_01 (15:18):
And I'm we're not worthy because they are really
the archetype of exactly whatyou're talking about.
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (15:25):
Except I looked at it and I was like, oh, this is a
small brand.
I don't yeah, because I at thetime I was talking to making
sure to try to talk to brands 50million and above, and they were
not there yet.
And I was like, I'm gonna passon this one, Silas.
My and uh I could not believe itwas like six months later.
I'm like, get them on thepodcast, I need them on the
podcast, and I I I missed myopportunity.
(15:45):
So I will tell you, ego, ego isthe enemy, guys.
Like, like never, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:52):
This is why I say say I was looking at crypto in
2011.
I went to Mt.
Gox, I was hanging out.
I was like, this looks likebullshit.
SPEAKER_00 (16:01):
Hey, I think long term, I'm just gonna say, I
think long term you're stillright.
SPEAKER_01 (16:07):
At the moment, I mean, I don't know, it was five
dollars and fifty-five centsnow.
But anyway, we we digress.
I'm completely aligned with thiswith this evolution,
transformation from theinfluencer to the creator.
And it sounds like to me you'reworking with brands to connect
(16:29):
with the right creator.
Is is that can can you zero inon the on on your service?
What is it?
SPEAKER_00 (16:36):
Oh, what we do at social commerce club?
SPEAKER_01 (16:38):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:41):
It's a new world.
It's it's a new world for peoplefor brands, right?
And they don't know how to makethe paradigm shift.
They have to make a paradigmshift, right?
A lot of brands are treatingthis as a new sales channel,
right?
So they'll often put it intotheir marketplace division,
which just makes me laughbecause I'm like, you obviously
(17:03):
don't get the channel if you'reputting it in with like Amazon
and Walmart and these channels.
Like it is not a demand capturechannel, it is an entire brand,
new brand channel, right?
It's even beyond a demandgeneration channel, it's a brand
channel.
And so it obvious it's veryobvious that most brands do not
understand the channel.
So they come to us at SocialCommerce Club for number one to
(17:25):
understand the channel, right?
Number two, to execute at a highlevel on the channel with our
creator network to start.
So what we do is we sift throughthe 8020 of the 8020 of the 8020
to find the best creators sothat when brands come on board
with us, they get those creatorsfrom day one.
And so that's that's really ahuge part of what we're doing.
And the next part of what we dois we really help brands
(17:49):
understand how to execute on thechannel in a in a very large way
and actually scale on thechannel.
There's brands that work withus.
Again, I can't say their names,but very big publicly traded
companies that work with us whothis is the pace car of their
entire business.
They have said to us, this isthe channel, it might not be the
(18:09):
highest revenue channel yet, butit is the pace car of their
business.
Some of these brands will dolike next year$100 million on
the channel.
Think of that.
Think of that.
And it halos over to everythingelse.
And so that's what we do.
Our team is incredible.
SPEAKER_01 (18:24):
Um, I don't want this to be a big pitch fest, but
like there's no one that's eventhe concept is so on point, so
timely, so trending, and it'stransformative for marketing,
advertising, and outreach,basically, empowering creators
who are you're ultimatelyempowering the customer, if you
really think about it, which ispeople who are naturally
(18:45):
enthusiastic about a product andthen integrate it into the flow
of their own narrative.
The question that I have thoughis how do you draw a connection?
So you got the to your exactpoint, creators are creating,
they're not going to read ascript for you, which is the old
influence.
It's the old influence model.
They definitely will not.
That's what I mean.
So counterpoint to theinfluencer model.
(19:08):
So since control is mitigated tonon-existent, you're providing
guidance and not guardrails.
How do you make that connectionbetween creators and brands that
are apropos?
And then how do you provide thatthat linkage, that alignment to,
in a sense, assure that thecommunication is organic and
(19:31):
natural and and whiplashes backto the brand in a way that
boosts their KPIs?
SPEAKER_00 (19:40):
So capitalism is the answer here, right?
The the incentive.
Capitalism is always the answer.
Well, the incentives arecompletely aligned, right?
If the if the creator postsvideos that don't sell the
product, they don't get paid,right?
(20:00):
So they only get paid when theydon't get any retainer deals.
There's nothing like that.
We don't believe in like bigretainer deals unless the brand
has worked.
Occasionally we'll pay acreator, we'll be like, hey, we
don't want you to work with anyof the competitors, right?
Like let's just say uh uh I'mtrying to name brands that
aren't our brands.
Um, let's just say I don't workwith Nike right now.
Let's just say that Reebok,right?
(20:22):
Was like there, and we're like,Yeah, we we Lego, you're a Lego
guy, right?
SPEAKER_01 (20:27):
You don't want to be a mega, mega blocks.
It's just gonna be.
SPEAKER_00 (20:30):
I can't name I can't name those brands.
SPEAKER_01 (20:32):
So okay.
Wow, you got you got some reach.
I'm just I'm just reaching intothe barrel and and it's your
you're yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:40):
So as of as of today, we don't work with Nike
or Reebok, and I really want towork Nike specifically.
I would love to work with you.
Um, I think that they're movingway too slow.
Nike and Lulu, those are onesthat it's just like, why?
I again I'm I don't know if youknow, I'm a Canadian.
Uh have lived was living inVancouver for a long time.
I actually live a little littleways away, but like all of these
incredible Vancouver brands aremoving way too slow.
(21:02):
They're moving way aritzia.
We see, I'm like, what is yourproblem?
Like, do you not understand thatthis is Blackberry, guys?
Come on, man.
Yeah, yeah.
Blackberry's gonna do massive onTikTok shop.
So today, by the way, just aquick aside, today they
announced a an invite-onlyprogram for digital products on
TikTok shop.
(21:22):
That is massive.
That is a really big people havebeen asking me about this for a
while.
Like, when are they gonna havedigital products?
So now all of the the unlocksthis massive category of digital
products on TikTok shop.
Absolutely huge.
Also, uh travel, travel iscoming to TikTok shop as well
right now through a specialTikTok program.
So, really very cool things thatare happening there.
(21:43):
So, um, so sometimes we'll lockup retainers, retainer deals for
certain creators so that theydon't go and work with the
competitor.
That's the only time that I canreally see see doing that.
Now, on the other side as well,right?
If a if a creator overpromisesThey talk about this pot and pan
set and they're like, Oh mygosh, this is the most
(22:03):
incredible pot and pan set.
You've never seen anything likethis, blah blah blah blah blah.
It does this, it does this, andthey lie about it.
They get their commission clawedback from refunds, right?
So the entire thing, it's abeautiful again, it is just
TikTok shop, it's just amicrocosm of capitalism.
SPEAKER_01 (22:20):
It's just like exactly the invisible hand of
Adam Smith, right?
Which is what you're saying.
So if you mess it up, creator,then your own profit plummets.
And if you're good at what youdo, you make money, and then the
brand is being disseminated.
SPEAKER_00 (22:37):
So versus influencer marketing did not have any of
that.
Influencer marketing is likesomebody will pay me four or
five grand to post for them,whether it drives sales or not.
And it doesn't matter.
There's no incentive for me todo more or less or whatever.
That's why I don't thinkinfluencer marketing works.
I think that it's like it'sthis, it's and again, influencer
(22:59):
marketing hasn't really beenaround that long.
Like, think like read shoe dog,uh, and read what Phil Knight
did, right?
Like that was fairly new.
It wasn't like a it wasn't athing like when he when he got
Michael Jordan on board, right?
That wasn't like that big of athing, and that was really like
the the advent of this type ofmarketing.
And again, there's there's someexamples of previously, but not
(23:22):
really, right?
And and so we've been workingout how to create this win-win
with people online, and nowevery single person can be a
creator.
That's wild, right?
That's really, really wild.
And then you see the otherplatforms, right?
You see YouTube coming on andmaking it easier and easier for
that to happen.
You see Instagram hopping onboard um at the same time,
right?
We're just we're just soeveryone knows, we are inundated
(23:46):
with these platforms coming tous, being like, How do we
launch?
Like, what should we do exactly?
Talk about being behind thecurve.
SPEAKER_01 (23:52):
I mean, the Instagram algorithm, and
frankly, the YouTube algorithmfor our creator sucks compared
to TikTok.
There's no accident that thatthe original algorithm was that
hot, and it became such a hotpotato, even politically,
because it works, it'sastonishing.
It's also scary.
Yeah, it really knows the userand measures the hell out of
(24:15):
everything, and it and it treatsit as a content focus to your
point.
It circulates and recirculatesyour videos.
Instagram never does that, yeah.
Right?
You don't need to tweak the SEOlike you need to do in in
YouTube.
Yeah, why do you need to map bea PhD in SEO to get your your
YouTube video visible?
(24:39):
What your content is, it shouldknow who you are and it should
match you with an audience.
What's so hard about it?
You have done all the workcreating your content, so all of
a sudden you need to be analgorithmic expert just to be
seen.
I mean, we're all we all feelthat.
Yeah.
Allow me to vent a little bit asa as a creator, and in a sense,
(25:00):
to extol the virtue of theTikTok algorithm as being
perfect for this kind ofexperience for both creator, for
brand, and for user.
Yeah, it is qualitativelydifferent, folks.
SPEAKER_00 (25:12):
TikTok is and this is why TikTok was able to have
TikTok shop absolutely take offwhen every third video is a
TikTok shop video, right?
They understood that peopleactually want to hear about new
products from regular people.
So go over to Meta, right?
So what one of the things thatwe do at Social Commerce Club is
we then take all of that, all ofthose videos, and then we take
(25:37):
the top videos, we get rightsfrom the creators to use them,
and then we use those over onMeta.
And what do you think the topperforming videos for all of
these massive brands are now?
They are these whitelisted,incredible creator videos on the
other platforms, right?
And they beat all of their othervideos.
That's crazy.
That's just crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (25:57):
It's not surprising, and then you've got built-in
editing tools like you know,CapCut is great.
Yeah, and then creators areempowered with creating their
own multimedia little clips,which are super fun.
And the other creators, too,just to add to that, is not just
even making money on product,but you grow your following
(26:18):
exponentially with every viralsuccess that you do for a brand.
SPEAKER_00 (26:23):
Totally, totally, and it does create it creates a
win-win between the creator,between the brand, right?
Then the brand's put puttingmoney behind your your videos,
which then gets you out to abigger audience and gets you a
better following, right?
It is it is the invisible handat work constantly.
So I I love that.
SPEAKER_01 (26:42):
Makes a hell of a lot of sense.
So how do you tap into a brand'sidentity?
So when you're working withbrands, you're you're
essentially a B2B resource here,it sounds like.
Yep.
Where I've got brand X and I'mI'm behind the curve and I know
I need to rock it on TikTok.
(27:03):
I've got an antiquated marketingand advertising team.
They're still placing hard copyads in People magazine, and I
need to have my game.
SPEAKER_00 (27:13):
I was thinking I was trying to think like what's
something worse than that.
I I can't maybe I can't think ofanything worse than that as far
as like what a marketing teamcould do.
SPEAKER_01 (27:20):
Go to your supermarket and there's people
magazine, and there's nomeasurement, no, yeah, nothing,
right?
Like, how the hell do you know?
It's like, you know, you'rewatching TV as a five-year-old,
and then you get an Alzheimer'sdrug ad on your TV watching the
cartoon.
I mean, really.
So we still have a long way togo, but the trailblazer is
(27:42):
exactly what you're talkingabout here.
So so how does it work?
I'm I'm uh I'm a CMO of acompany that that's gotta catch
up.
And I know that TikTok's hot andyou've got a proven reputation,
and you do this creator stuff onTikTok shop.
SPEAKER_00 (28:00):
Yes.
So it can't be it's this isn'tbrand, this isn't brand
marketing.
We don't start with brandmarketing, right?
We're not just putting all ofour products out there, right?
What we recommend is that youpick your top three products,
right?
That creators want to sell.
So beloved products thatcreators love.
So Ninja, um, which is not oneof our brands yet, but we're
(28:24):
actually talking to them nextweek.
Um, so I can talk about them.
Um so Shark Shark Ninja is areally, really good example,
right?
Their products that took off arebeloved products.
The ninja creamy is a productthat people love.
Now, how much does a ninjacreamy cost?
Something like$200.
It is it's it's a large amountof money, but creators love the
(28:47):
ninja creamy.
And so creators took thatproduct and it absolutely
crushed.
Shark Ninja does a massiveamount of revenue on here
because they looked at theproducts that creators would
love.
They're not selling vacuums,right?
Creators do not want to sell avacuum on there.
Now, maybe Dyson would be goodfor that, right?
Because people love the Dysonvacuums.
(29:09):
Whatever a creator would loveand can get behind, that is the
product to give to them, right?
And so, so that's really part ofthe key is figuring out which
part of your product line.
There are brands that we'rerecommending actually make
specific products for TikTokshop.
That's the crazy thing.
SPEAKER_01 (29:25):
I was gonna ask you about that.
So I love your approach, whichis you don't swim against the
stream and you take the lowestof low-hanging fruit of brands
of products that your creatorsare already loving and they
can't wait to talk about it.
So you're not forcing it onto acreator again, old school
influencer marketing, which isknowing nothing about the
(29:48):
audience, and here's here's fivegrand, beloviate about this, but
they're already using it orthey're enthusiastic about using
it.
Yes, and then the other pointyou're making, which is
terrific, which is it you don'thave a product like that yet,
which kind of fits that profile.
SPEAKER_00 (30:07):
Tweak it, make it totally, which is why some of
these big brands do notunderstand how to get on the
platform, right?
Like we have been in many, manyboardrooms.
I was in in Manhattan last week,and as a little Canadian over
there, oh my gosh, not little,but I'm like six, four.
SPEAKER_01 (30:26):
Well, you got tons of hair.
SPEAKER_00 (30:28):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
That really helped me with NewYorkers, I will tell you.
I had to puff my chest up alittle bit at points, you know.
Um trying to help these hugebrands understand what they're
going to have to do to get ontothe platform, right?
And uh, and again, this is why Iright now uh am trying to put
the book on the subject outthere is because it takes a
(30:49):
paradigm shift.
It is not just tactical, right?
I I have a YouTube channel withwith tons of videos, hundreds of
thousands of views constantlyfor tactics, but it's actually
not a tactical issue right now,right?
It's actually a paradigm shift.
I don't know if you've ever hadthis in your life before.
I'm sure you have, you know,seeing your your the amount of
(31:10):
hair you have right now, right?
Knowing that you've been throughsome stuff and you have this
massive paradigm shift.
And you're like, oh, I finallyget it.
I get exactly what we need todo.
I get what, and and that's theproblem is that brands don't get
this yet.
It it is, it's a very similar,very similar issue right now to
AI, in which we don't understandyet what that's going to look
like.
The amount of AI content that Iam constantly consuming to
(31:33):
understand, like, what is thenext world going to look like?
Like, our organization is goingto be hundreds of people soon.
And so, like, what do I do asthe founder of an organization
like that to prepare?
It's the same thing with brandsright now.
They need to understand thatthere is going to be this
massive shift that you're goingto have to make in your brain.
And that paradigm shifts are theabsolute basis to be able to
(31:57):
catapult off.
And you've seen it, you see itwith older people, right?
All the time.
You're like, Yeah, they justnever made the paradigm shift.
SPEAKER_01 (32:03):
It's the old executive.
So you have people who grew upwith influencer marketing.
The reason that they're seniormanagement is because they've
been an ass in a chair for 10,20 years.
Totally.
You need young talent, folks.
You get your intern and put themin charge for a week.
(32:24):
Seriously.
Seriously, because they get it,they live this stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (32:29):
Yeah.
PG was always really good atthis, right?
Where they took from the frontlines, right?
They took the feedback.
We're constantly trying to dothat.
In fact, I I'm so inspired by umby Elon's management in the way
that he goes and does skip levelmeetings throughout his
organization to find out likewhat is actually going on.
What is like, what is the painon the ground, like where he'll
(32:52):
just spend days upon days on theassembly line figuring out
what's going on.
I am so inspired by that.
And that is what TikTok shop andwhat social commerce does,
right?
It allows you to be on thefactory floor, hearing from your
creators constantly, having thisconstant feedback loop from
creators.
(33:12):
It it is it is incrediblycompelling uh to be able to,
again, just as a researchassistant for you, right?
Go ahead, break even on thechannel just as research to find
out what people actually want,right?
No longer are brands going, Ihave I have a whole chapter in
this book talking about how youcan cut your entire research and
development budget, right?
(33:34):
Because you have brands tellingor you're sorry, you have
creators telling you what to do,and then you have constant
validation from the market,right?
Like, especially in the states,guys, we have 200 million people
spending 90 minutes a day onthis platform.
Number one, like I just cannotbelieve that people spend that
much time on their phones on oneapp, right?
(33:56):
Like the that all aside, peopleare doing it, and so as brands,
you need to be where people are.
You're not going to, you know,morally, I'm like, I feel like a
cigarette executive in the 80swhere you're like, I think that
this is the cigarettes of ourday.
You're you're the madman TVshow.
Oh, a hundred percent.
A hundred percent.
Yeah, like one of my one of myuh soon-to-be business partners
(34:19):
uh lives in that kind of place.
And and I feel I'm like, ohyeah, that's right.
We're the we're the cigaretteexecutives.
Okay, I got it.
And and yet on the other side,we have created tens of
thousands of jobs at SocialCommerce Club for creators.
Oh, absolutely.
Right?
Incredible what we have beenable to do for them.
(34:41):
And then you look at the broaderecosystem, there's gonna be
millions of jobs created fromthis.
Like, I am so glad that in theStates they did not get rid of
TikTok because it would havebeen horrific economically.
I think about the amount ofthese millennial moms that don't
have to go into offices and canwork from home with their kids.
That's cool, that's super cool,right?
(35:03):
So that's what we hold on to andthe way that I sleep at night.
SPEAKER_01 (35:08):
Absolutely.
And and what about the newregime?
Uh, TikTok was bought ostensiblyto keep it in play.
And have you noticed changes tothe algorithm?
Is it more receptive than it wasbefore to monetization to
opportunities like TikTok shop?
(35:31):
Uh there's there's kind of a newmanagement.
There is a new management.
I hate it when people say kindof, sort of, in their speech.
You notice that?
If you yeah, you kind of, iteither is or it isn't.
SPEAKER_00 (35:47):
I so I was again at New York head office last week.
Um we have a lot of accessbecause we're one of the top
agencies in North America, andwe have not, I if I didn't know,
I wouldn't know um that there'smuch of a difference.
So uh as far as we can tell,it's business as usual.
It's being it's yeah, I don'tsee any difference.
(36:12):
I think it's just on paper.
SPEAKER_01 (36:14):
I understand it could be a sensitive subject to
you, but our listeners andviewers are wondering what
what's up because it you knowTikTok was almost bye-bye.
People were going over to thered line or whatever in China,
and they were uh outraged andjumping ship, and TikTok got
saved, it's uh under newmanagement, and uh people are
(36:35):
just wondering.
SPEAKER_00 (36:36):
Yeah, I so we see no difference, we see zero
difference as far as it beingmanaged, reassuring, I think, to
creators.
Yeah, I I think that creators,if if anything, they will figure
out how comparatively TikTok isunder monetized compared to
other channels.
So, one of the things thatpeople might not realize is that
(36:58):
TikTok was a horrible platformfor understanding the customer
journey from ads over into dotcom or Amazon.
And yet we knew that when weturned off TikTok ads, suddenly
everything stopped.
But we lived in this world whereeveryone had to measure
everything and justifyeverything, except for
(37:18):
influencers somehow.
And but paid media was likethat.
That's why I really believe thatthat's where TikTok shop came
from, is like they're like,okay, we need to figure out how
to actually show this.
And in a closed ecosystem, everysingle dollar is accounted for.
So much so now that likespending on GMV Max, which is
the automated platform that youuse to spend money on TikTok
(37:41):
shop ads.
It is, I I we have a toolinternally at Social Commerce
Club.
It's something actually we'regonna put out into the broader
ecosystem, but it's such an suchan insane tool that we're only
allowing our clients to have it.
It's called Halo.
It measures the Halo effect fromTikTok shop over onto these
other platforms, and it's wild,guys.
There's a there's a client ofours who does around 50 to 70k a
(38:05):
day on the platform, and they'redoing$200,000 extra on their
retail, their owned retail andtheir dot com and Amazon.
An extra$200,000 a day.
Think about that.
SPEAKER_01 (38:19):
Like they that's called omni channel, right?
Where it's absolutely it'sjumping from one to the other,
and then you've got people usingmultiple devices in different
ways throughout the day.
And people are acclimated,especially the digital natives
who are eating this stuff up, tojust be absorbing content from
multiple sources, multiplemodalities, and jumping from one
(38:41):
platform to another.
So that that makes all the sensein the world.
You did bring up paidadvertising, and I wanted to ask
ask you about that.
Now, being an influencer, beinga creator on TikTok, you could
go organic, which is you pumpyour content out there and see
what the algorithm will do foryou based on your content, based
(39:02):
on who you're following, basedon who's following you, and you
hope to grow.
Everyone wants to expand theirreach and engagement.
Then you have an opportunity topay to play.
And how does that factor intothe creator ecosystem in terms
of that capitalism that you weretalking about earlier?
SPEAKER_00 (39:24):
So brands still the here's one thing that that
people don't realize.
I think brands don't realizebefore they go in.
Brands, when they are employingor deploying capital on in paid
ads, also pay a percentage tothe creator still on their uh on
(39:46):
their videos.
And so it's not the samepercentage as organic.
So luckily, this is somethingthat we push back on in the
early days.
Again, we were one of the firstagencies here.
We're like constantly givingTikTok the feedback of like, no,
we need this.
So one of the big things that wepush back on at the beginning
was creators, we need to pay outcreators separately with organic
(40:07):
content and paid content thatwe're putting money behind.
And so often we'll have let'slet's say a 20% commission on
organic content and like an 8%commission on paid content.
That's to make up for the fact,like brands again to create a
real win-win, and this is whatwe're constantly talking about.
We need creators to understandbecause these creators are not
(40:27):
business people, they're likethe opposite of business people.
Like you do not want to, youhave to explain these things to
creators, right?
These are moms at home who arecreating really good at creating
content and selling stuff, butthey do not understand the
economics of selling thingsonline, right?
(40:47):
And so you need to help themunderstand, okay, we're gonna
pay you 20% here because we canafford it, and we're gonna pay
you 7% over here because we'realso putting ads behind it.
I think being more transparentwith your creators is great.
Hey, by the way, this channel weonly make 10% on.
That's not our regular, youknow, that's not our regular
profit that we're that we haveon other channels, but we're
(41:08):
doing it for this.
And should breaking down thecost for them, I think, is
really important because mostbrand, most creators don't
understand this.
SPEAKER_01 (41:15):
And would you inspire creators to run their
own ads?
SPEAKER_00 (41:19):
So, as you said that, I thought to myself, so
this is not an option.
As far as I know, this is not anoption on TikTok shop, is for
creators to run their own ads.
As I was thinking about this, Iwas like, man, like this is
classic affiliate marketing.
You would run your own adsbehind different offers.
This is not a thing on TikTokshop, as far as I know right
(41:40):
now, Mookie.
Like, this is creators have notgotten this far.
Now, me just being at TikTok, Ishould have brought this up to
them, and they should createsomething like this.
SPEAKER_01 (41:48):
Bring bring me along next time.
You can get reflected sunlightfrom my head in the in the
conference room.
SPEAKER_00 (41:55):
Well, it might actually it might actually help
a lot with my credibility, youknow, to come in.
They they all probably think I'mso young, you know, because of
this hair that I have here, youknow, but it's they're just
jelly like I am.
SPEAKER_01 (42:09):
That that's all.
That's all.
But again, I think this idea ofof integrating engagement with
paid advertising is evolving toyour point, and empowering
creators with that tool as well,because now, as a creator,
you're empowered to pump yourown ads that are that are just
(42:30):
your own content, right?
I mean, I get ads every damnday.
Every time I pump my own microinfluencer, micro creator
content on TikTok.
I get an opportunity, get 3x.
3x the views, Mookie, with thisgreat rant you just did about uh
you know Canadian hockey, andthen boom, right?
(42:52):
I can pay 20, 30, 50 withguaranteed reach.
SPEAKER_00 (42:58):
I I need to so you have you have gotten me thinking
here about this and whethercreators are able to do this or
not.
Um, this is something I'mputting in, I'm gonna make some
content about tomorrow.
Because this is a reallyinteresting idea and something
that I wonder if creators willstart gamifying and something
that we can help them gamify.
SPEAKER_01 (43:20):
Absolutely would.
There's no question about it.
Because as a creator, you'realways at decision point.
You know, when Yogi Berra saidum if you hit a fork in the
road, then take it.
Take it.
SPEAKER_00 (43:34):
So like just the best advice, though, by the way.
Just make make decisions, justmake a decision.
SPEAKER_01 (43:40):
Just keep going.
Just keep going.
Just stay in stay in motion,folks.
It doesn't matter if you mess itup.
You're in motion, so you couldget back on the on the on the
train.
Uh the the number one fork inthe road, every time you hit
post, you you've already alwaysgot it in the back of your mind.
Like if I actually Pumped a fewdollars into this, would it
(44:02):
exponentially increase my reachand pop me viral?
And then TikTok, frankly, playwith you with this.
TikTok will give you a giftevery once in a while as a
creator, where all of a suddenyou're getting an average
engagement rate of maybe a fewthousand views, and boom, you go
viral.
And then you're like, oh, thatfelt good.
(44:25):
But that's a blip.
You might go viral in a week,you might go viral in a month.
And you you got a taste.
And right after you go viral,they're like, hey creator, you
know, did you like that?
You want a little more?
SPEAKER_00 (44:42):
Totally.
And we do and creators do.
They do want more.
They always want more.
SPEAKER_01 (44:49):
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
And the other thing is what Ihave noticed about the new
ownership is that they'rethey're pushing monetization
even harder for creators thanthey did before.
SPEAKER_00 (45:00):
It's it's a drug.
I mean, that's the that's thething about all of this online
content is it is a drug.
When you see those numbers,you're like, I want more, I want
more.
Yes, it's playing into and andfor better or for worse, it is
the way that brands are blowingup right now, right?
And creators.
(45:20):
And I can't think of a betterway for brands to be able to get
out in the world right now thanon TikTok shop.
Like, there's no better way.
And I know the other platformsare coming, which again, we will
be first on all of thoseplatforms.
I have no doubt.
I just think that the brandsthat don't get it now and don't
build the muscle now are dead.
(45:42):
They're dead.
SPEAKER_01 (45:43):
I totally agree.
And frankly, I'm astonished asto how clunky Instagram still
is.
Yeah.
You know, I I post the exactthis is another phenomenon that
I'm sure you're familiar withamong creators.
I don't just post on TikTok, Itake the same damn video with
the same hashtags and the samecaptions and all the doodads,
(46:04):
and I put it on Instagram andYouTube, and I get one tenth,
one one hundredth, one onethousandth the engagement.
It's the exact same content.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (46:17):
It's yeah.
I mean, this is why TikTokbecame what it is.
This is why people spend so muchtime on TikTok.
SPEAKER_01 (46:26):
And there's like a billion and a half people on
Instagram, so Zuck is like,well, we're that's fine.
SPEAKER_00 (46:32):
Yeah, except except that I except they're really
lacking creators over there,right?
That is one thing that you thatyou have heard from them time
and time again that they want,they've been trying to pay
creators to move over hugeamounts of money.
There's stuff that came outwhere they're paying like
hundreds of thousands of dollarsto get creators off of TikTok
over to Instagram, right?
SPEAKER_01 (46:55):
Well, why would you do that?
The interface sucks, thealgorithm sucks, and you need to
do your SEO magic.
You've got all these experts whoare advising you how you need to
tweak your tagging.
Get out of here with this.
I just made content.
You should know who my audienceis.
(47:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Why?
Because TikTok already does agood job of it.
Yeah.
So it's astonishing.
It's it's really um thechallenge of leadership, you
know, when the the the leaderfalls asleep, like IBM
computers.
Yeah, absolutely.
You get tired and lazy, andfrankly, I think Meta is like
(47:37):
that, and even Google's likethat in the space.
I want to be respectful of yourtime, and I want to close it by
giving you a chance to pitch,which is I'm uh I'm a decision
maker at a brand, and I'm tryingto figure this out.
So, how what happens for me toget my brand up to speed?
(48:03):
What needs to change in my head,and then what tactical steps do
I need to do to build this armyof creators that'll energize me
in the social space in ways thatmy multi-channel digital
campaign with banners that noone looks at can never do now.
(48:26):
What's gotta happen, Jordan?
SPEAKER_00 (48:30):
Well, I think the first the first thing that I
would help you realize, Mookie,is that your ads are continuing
to cost more and more on thesechannels that you're trying to
shove content in front ofpeople, right?
If you've noticed your meta CPAgoing up massively and your
frequency on meta going upconstantly, the reason that's
(48:51):
happening is that the contentthat you're putting out there is
only reaching this certainaudience that will buy no matter
what, right?
And you no longer are able toget in front of the people that
matter, right?
And the new people that aremaking purchases.
And so you've hit this smallamount of audience that everyone
else is going after that sucksat advertising right now, right?
(49:14):
And and you don't know whatpeople out there want, right?
You don't know what yourcustomer wants anymore because
you're not close enough to them.
You don't have the close enough,tight enough feedback loop to
understand what they want.
SPEAKER_01 (49:29):
Bing! The creators know, because they got two
audiences, yeah.
See that that's that's thebeauty.
That's how I wanted to tie thisall in and out.
I can do all the market researchin the world and I can hire
McKinse and all these otherfolks, and it's nothing compared
to an army of creators withtheir own following reaching out
(49:50):
personally in the digital spaceon a platform that has an
effective algorithm like TikTok.
I think that that's the keydifferentiator.
SPEAKER_00 (49:59):
One of the big things that I want to launch in
the next call it three months.
I'd love to launch next week, isthe McKinsey of social commerce
change.
I don't think that anyone seeshow to do it yet.
And this is how big orgs changeis with big amounts of data and
and this that's how you change,that's how you move a big
(50:22):
creator, the lens of your troopsin the field, right?
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (50:27):
All that petabytes of data flying at you, right?
One on one.
Exactly.
Ladies and gentlemen, Mr.
Jordan West, the Social CommerceClub, activating creators and
connecting them with brands todo marketing and advertising in
a way that's no longer marketingand advertising.
(50:48):
What would you call it, Jordan?
Just to put a cap on this.
What do we call this new kind ofengagement through the lens of
social through creators?
SPEAKER_00 (50:59):
This is social commerce.
This is word of mouth at scale,is social commerce.
SPEAKER_01 (51:04):
Respectfully, that you need to rebrand that brand.
Social commerce sounds boring,Jordan.
I'll think about it.
You need a term with Zing,buddy, for this.
Come back to me, and we'll doanother podcast, and we'll think
of something that's sexier thansocial commerce.
Come on, you're a you're asalesman.
SPEAKER_00 (51:25):
That sounds good.
I'll I'll be back for that.
SPEAKER_01 (51:27):
Get some riz.
Like, comment, share everybody,subscribe, bald ambition.
Thanks so much to Jordan.
I would love to follow up withyou and see where this is
headed.
And good luck with your pitchcoming up.
Yeah, thanks for having me on.
Especially with that buff on ahair, you're gonna rock it,
buddy.
Hello and welcome back to Bald Ambition.
I'm still bald, but the one withambition today is Mr.
Jordan West.
He's the founder of the SocialCommerce Club.
I can't wait to talk to youabout TikTok and its evolution,
especially for influencermarketing.
Welcome aboard, Jordan.
SPEAKER_00 (00:20):
Thank you so much for having me.
Really looking forward to this.
I uh I am, yes, I'm the one withambition today and still some
hair.
Um uh as of now, I'll tell you.
SPEAKER_01 (00:31):
I know.
I'm often reminded of this uhthis delta, and and you got a
nice buffant there.
If you're on video, you can seeJordan's plough, and if you're
on audio, you can use yourimagination.
I'm obvious obviously operatingfrom a pretty pretty basic
baseline.
So, you know, Jordan, Jordan'sstepping up in terms of the
follicular count.
(00:52):
And you're also stepping up interms of empowering influencers
on TikTok.
Now, a little bit of background,I'm on TikTok too.
I'm a micro influencer, I've gotabout 17,000, 17,500 followers.
Awesome, and maybe about 300,000likes.
So I'm, you know, just hovering.
Yeah, I'm I'm poking theecosystem.
(01:15):
And I've noticed changes insocial media.
I've noticed changes in theevolution of influencers and
their relation to brands andstorytelling.
And of course, TikTok's goingthrough its own changes with new
ownership as well.
Can you give us some context andshow us what value you provide?
The uh the TikTok universe, thetick, the TikTok sphere.
SPEAKER_00 (01:40):
So interesting that you talk about influencers,
right?
And I think that that's theworld that a lot of us have
grown up in over the lastprobably 15 years of maybe not
even quite that long withInstagram, and then Instagram
morphing into uh into TikTok,right?
And and a bunch of the, youknow, sort of young people going
over to TikTok and spending somuch time there and TikTok's
(02:02):
algorithm being absolutelycrazy.
It's created this wholeinfluencer ecosystem.
I'm actually not here to talkabout influencers today.
What I'm here to talk about iscreators, right?
And this really big shift frominfluencer marketing, from
top-down marketing, brandmarketing into word of mouth at
scale.
(02:23):
And that's really what happenedwith TikTok Shop.
Uh, I got interested in TikTokshop about two years ago.
I owned a bunch of brands.
I've owned eight differentbrands over time, mostly all in
apparel.
Uh, and we sold our last brand,and then we had one of our
brands go bankrupt.
And I had no more brands left.
And I had the small agency onthe side.
(02:44):
And I was like, you know what?
This is a really interestingopportunity.
I saw TikTok shop come around.
And what I realized is that itwas the first time that we found
a win-win between creators or orwhat we were calling at the time
influencers and brands.
Before that, I hated workingwith influencers.
The reason I hated working withthem is, and just so everyone
(03:05):
knows, like I also, you know, inthe business world, do the
influencer thing.
I've got about 30,000 followerson LinkedIn.
So I get bright, like I getdeals from software companies
all the time.
And I will tell you, it's reallyhard to create a win-win, right?
It's really hard where it'slike, what kind of value are you
gonna get versus me selling mysoul to you to talk to my
(03:27):
audience?
Right.
And so suddenly TikTok shop camearound and it was the perfect
marriage between these creators,the algorithm, right?
The algorithm that was notfollower-based.
So it didn't really matterwhether you had influence over
anyone or not.
It just mattered whether youknew how to go viral or not and
talk about products.
And suddenly there was like thismarriage between brands and
(03:49):
products, sorry, creators andbrands, and they actually
somehow created a win-win, whichI'm just all about figuring that
part out because that's how youcreate scale, right?
At one point, if someone'strying to screw the other
person, you can't really createscale, right?
You're going to have a businessrelationship that's going to,
I'm sure people have had thatout there before where it's
(04:09):
like, okay, well, I got screwedby this person, I'm never going
to work with them again.
And that was happening withinfluencers all the time.
It was always, always roulette.
So I'll I'll pause there for asecond because I could just keep
talking this whole time.
SPEAKER_01 (04:20):
So that's a great contextual setup because um I'm
older school, I've donemarketing for big brands too,
and this idea of the influencerhas been pivotal.
And the shift to creator isgreat because it's about
intentionality.
If you're a creator, you're outthere pumping content, you've
got a point of view, you've gotyour own style, and you're not
(04:43):
overtly trying to changebehaviors or ostensibly
manipulate, you're just sharing.
And it sounds to me like you'retapping into this natural energy
and zeitgeist of folks who aresharing whatever talent,
whatever point of view theyhave, and then contextualizing
it within the shop.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_00 (05:04):
Don't and so what I like to call it is word of mouth
at scale, right?
It was like the first time Iremember this when we owned
brands, where it was like, howdo we manufacture word of mouth?
And like the best way, justeveryone knows to manufacture
word of mouth is to have a goodproduct, right?
Like, look at the Teslas and theApples of the world, right?
Like, who just have greatproducts that you're like, well,
(05:25):
I want to like for the longesttime, Apple never paid for any
product placement because peoplewanted to have the Apple logo in
their movies or in whatever theywere doing to show that they
were cool, right?
So product is the number one wayto get word of mouth at scale,
right?
This is to me the way to thenactually systematize that,
(05:46):
right?
And it's starting with TikTokshop, but it's not stopping
right there.
Like the agency that I that Ifounded, it's called Social
Commerce Club, not TikTok ShopClub, right?
Because social commerce is whatwe call this new world where
creators are doing the marketingfor you.
Like we we talk to brands allthe time.
We're like, your job is not tosell a product to the end
(06:06):
consumer, your job is to sell aproduct to the creator.
And if the creator buys in, thenyou get them.
I I joke, I'm like, it's kind oflike the MLM of 2026.
Like, like your whole job is tocreate this pyramid, right?
Of people selling to people togetting them on board.
Like, that's the whole thing.
So, like, if you're a potentialcult leader, this is like you
(06:27):
this is exactly what you want todo.
SPEAKER_01 (06:30):
So, how does it how does it happen?
When I cracked like 10,000followers, then I got a bunch of
messages and invites, and I'veseen TikTok shop, and then I get
invites from brands.
Often I don't even know what todo with them, and I haven't
really integrated thatrelationship into my content.
(06:53):
So, where do you step in?
How do you help?
Who do you help?
And what kind of value do youprovide within not the
influencer ecosystem, but thisnew creator reality of word of
mouth and brand identification?
SPEAKER_00 (07:13):
So on TikTok shop, there are 3.7 million creators
that are signed up throughTikTok shop, right?
I'm sure that at some point yougot an email and it was like,
hey, I'm gonna become a TikTokshop creator.
Like you're eligible to become acreator.
And so the problem is there'sout of these 3.7 million
(07:34):
creators, it is the Paretoprinciple, the 8020 of the 8020
of the 8020 of the ones that canactually sell and have figured
it out.
Now, I think that it's going toget better and better.
I think that as education comesaround, there's some stuff that
we've got.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:51):
Yeah.
I'm I'm at the top end of thatfunnel, 8020, 8020.
I think I got only a few layersin.
You're at like 79, 70.
Yeah, 79.5.
SPEAKER_00 (08:01):
And I'm like, what am I supposed to do?
Well, because it's a new musclefor both brands and creators,
right?
That's the problem, is thatwe've never really had this
before.
SPEAKER_01 (08:11):
But and no support.
I mean, you got the app, it'ssitting there looking at you,
and you start tapping, and thentotally.
SPEAKER_00 (08:19):
So that's on the on the on the creator side, right?
So for us, we're really obsessedwith how do brands actually find
these creators that actuallyknow how to sell?
Like, how do they createessentially a sales team for
them on TikTok shop?
And that's what what what we'rereally obsessed with is like,
how do we find these creatorsthat are doing really great
(08:40):
work?
Our next thing that that Ipersonally will be obsessed with
is how do I then train creatorsto be better creators, right?
And actually talk aboutproducts.
For me, it's funny, like, youknow, coming from owning all
these brands and agencies andall this sort of stuff.
I have really, at the end of theday, I am just a salesperson.
Like I love selling product, butonly stuff that I really believe
(09:02):
in.
Like, even when when uh youknow, when brands or software
companies will come to me, Ialways try the product out and
I'm like, do I actually likethis?
I'll just talk about productsthat I love.
And that's what these creatorsare incredibly good at.
They see a product and they'relike, oh, I know exactly how to
fit this in.
So interestingly, this is agreat soundbite for you.
Interestingly, the best creatorson the platform.
Can you guess who they are?
(09:23):
Can you guess demographics-wise?
What they what do they looklike?
Who are they?
Gen Z female.
No, no, Gen Zs suck.
There's another soundbite foryou.
Gen Z suck.
No, it is millennial moms.
Because that's actually theother extreme, right?
Yeah.
So who knows who is the onethat's talking about the most
(09:46):
amount of products?
Number one has the mostpurchasing power, is buying the
most amount of things, needs toconstantly be looking for
different things for theirfamily.
It's the millennial moms.
They know how to sell.
Plus, they've had enough timeonline, right?
They've probably had the mostamount of time online of anyone
because they were early adoptersof Instagram and Facebook,
probably first Facebook, thenInstagram.
(10:07):
I am married to a beautifulmillennial mom.
Digital native.
Totally.
And so they already understandhow to build these things up.
Now, the again, the the bigreason why we do not call these
people influencers is becausethey are selling themselves
constantly, right?
An influencer has to be reallycareful about what they put out
to their audience.
Now, the way that the TikTokalgorithm works, and I'm sure
(10:29):
you know, it is content-based,right?
It's content focused.
And so it doesn't really matterwhether you've got a great
following or not, right?
In fact, it's probably better ifyou don't.
Because so one reallyinteresting thing with creators
is they actually want to workwith the same brand or sorry,
with the same type of productwith different brands.
(10:50):
They're totally fine reppingCoke and Pepsi together.
That's just wild, right?
Like, why would they be okaywith that?
But they are, they're totallyfine with that because at the
end of the day, they just wantto bring cool products forward.
And even if it's so if they findtwo in the same category, versus
an influencer would never dothat.
They would never sell out.
(11:11):
The brand would not want them todo that.
No, but in this new world ofsocial commerce, it's the
creators that actually have allof the leverage, right?
They're the ones that have theleverage over the brand.
It's wild.
SPEAKER_01 (11:25):
It's a fascinating distinction.
Um, I I grew up in old schoolPR, and I actually worked for
some of the big agencies inManhattan.
Fun rep reputation, fun, fun,fun.
And then the reputation waseverything.
It's all you're one, you're onearticle, you're one phone call,
you're one bad message away fromcomplete brand destruction.
(11:50):
And you're you're walking aroundon pins the whole time.
And this new perspective,exactly like you described, it's
a fluid natural environmentwhere people are sharing
content.
The waterfall is is actually atsunami, and it's about
operating at scale in a way thatempowers the distributor, the
(12:11):
creator of content rather thanthe brand, which needs to be
protected.
SPEAKER_00 (12:16):
I I wish what we could do right now is go on to
ChatGPT and look at thesemassive behemoth brands and how
much their stock is down rightnow.
Right.
And the reason I uh right now,by the way, I'm I'm doing an
audiobook on this.
Reason why I'm doing anaudiobook is it's just so much
faster.
And so I'm going through this inpart of the beginning part of
(12:38):
the audiobook of all of thesebrands that are down massive
amounts right now because theydo not understand that they
cannot control their narrativeanymore, right?
The narrative is in the hands ofthe people, right?
When Instagram came out, right,it started to be like, okay,
well, we can control thenarrative.
We can, we can, you know, likewith PR, right?
It's like you're constantlycontrolling the narrative.
(12:59):
You cannot do that anymore.
You have no more control overthe narrative.
And so the control that you haveis over your creators, at least
talking about your products,right?
And the way that you treat yourcreators.
The brands that crush that wework, and we work with a lot of
like really big Fortune 500companies at Social Emerce Club.
We're we're the as of thismonth, we should be the number
(13:19):
one agency as far as GMV on theentire platform.
Uh GMV just being revenue push.
So we we do know what we'redoing, we know how this works,
we know how to work with thesemassive brands when it comes to
this.
And it's really, really fun.
But also the majority of thesehuge brands are so scared to
give up control of the message,right?
And they want to see everysingle, every single item that
(13:41):
comes through.
And the problem is it's notgoing to work, right?
It's not going, they're going toget left behind.
Look at Lulu, look at Nike,look, look at them this year.
Right.
Like we're we're also we're thetop uh fashion agency.
We won top fashion agency thisyear at TikTok.
And those those big behemothsare moving too slow, right?
It's not like it's not workingfor them.
(14:03):
Um, they need this new word ofmouth at scale, right?
That's the that's the issuebecause there's all of these
fighter brands that are comingup and and absolutely crushing
them that because they can movefaster, right?
They're working with creators,they can move faster, their
messaging shifts with howcreators talk.
It's wild.
SPEAKER_01 (14:21):
And disruption and humor, and usually the things
that were kryptonite for PR formajor brands because they
heightened risk, is thelifeblood of a lot of this
stuff.
Look at liquid death.
Yes, yes, really good example.
Brand, zany social stuff,creators going nuts with the
(14:42):
product, user-generated left andright.
It's just uh it's a can ofwater, man.
SPEAKER_00 (14:49):
It's water, it's water, it's a really good brand
to look at, right?
When you're looking at atstudies of like what to do as a
brand, right?
And and how it's uh so I've runI've run a podcast for years.
At first, it was called Secretsof Scaling or E-Commerce Brand.
When I went all in on TikTokShop, it's now called the
unofficial TikTok shop podcast,just because I really love, I
(15:09):
really love talking about that.
And there's not a lot of peopleout there in the space that
know, but I had the opportunityto interview the CMO of Liquid
Death before they were huge.
SPEAKER_01 (15:18):
And I'm we're not worthy because they are really
the archetype of exactly whatyou're talking about.
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (15:25):
Except I looked at it and I was like, oh, this is a
small brand.
I don't yeah, because I at thetime I was talking to making
sure to try to talk to brands 50million and above, and they were
not there yet.
And I was like, I'm gonna passon this one, Silas.
My and uh I could not believe itwas like six months later.
I'm like, get them on thepodcast, I need them on the
podcast, and I I I missed myopportunity.
(15:45):
So I will tell you, ego, ego isthe enemy, guys.
Like, like never, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:52):
This is why I say say I was looking at crypto in
2011.
I went to Mt.
Gox, I was hanging out.
I was like, this looks likebullshit.
SPEAKER_00 (16:01):
Hey, I think long term, I'm just gonna say, I
think long term you're stillright.
SPEAKER_01 (16:07):
At the moment, I mean, I don't know, it was five
dollars and fifty-five centsnow.
But anyway, we we digress.
I'm completely aligned with thiswith this evolution,
transformation from theinfluencer to the creator.
And it sounds like to me you'reworking with brands to connect
(16:29):
with the right creator.
Is is that can can you zero inon the on on your service?
What is it?
SPEAKER_00 (16:36):
Oh, what we do at social commerce club?
SPEAKER_01 (16:38):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:41):
It's a new world.
It's it's a new world for peoplefor brands, right?
And they don't know how to makethe paradigm shift.
They have to make a paradigmshift, right?
A lot of brands are treatingthis as a new sales channel,
right?
So they'll often put it intotheir marketplace division,
which just makes me laughbecause I'm like, you obviously
(17:03):
don't get the channel if you'reputting it in with like Amazon
and Walmart and these channels.
Like it is not a demand capturechannel, it is an entire brand,
new brand channel, right?
It's even beyond a demandgeneration channel, it's a brand
channel.
And so it obvious it's veryobvious that most brands do not
understand the channel.
So they come to us at SocialCommerce Club for number one to
(17:25):
understand the channel, right?
Number two, to execute at a highlevel on the channel with our
creator network to start.
So what we do is we sift throughthe 8020 of the 8020 of the 8020
to find the best creators sothat when brands come on board
with us, they get those creatorsfrom day one.
And so that's that's really ahuge part of what we're doing.
And the next part of what we dois we really help brands
(17:49):
understand how to execute on thechannel in a in a very large way
and actually scale on thechannel.
There's brands that work withus.
Again, I can't say their names,but very big publicly traded
companies that work with us whothis is the pace car of their
entire business.
They have said to us, this isthe channel, it might not be the
(18:09):
highest revenue channel yet, butit is the pace car of their
business.
Some of these brands will dolike next year$100 million on
the channel.
Think of that.
Think of that.
And it halos over to everythingelse.
And so that's what we do.
Our team is incredible.
SPEAKER_01 (18:24):
Um, I don't want this to be a big pitch fest, but
like there's no one that's eventhe concept is so on point, so
timely, so trending, and it'stransformative for marketing,
advertising, and outreach,basically, empowering creators
who are you're ultimatelyempowering the customer, if you
really think about it, which ispeople who are naturally
(18:45):
enthusiastic about a product andthen integrate it into the flow
of their own narrative.
The question that I have thoughis how do you draw a connection?
So you got the to your exactpoint, creators are creating,
they're not going to read ascript for you, which is the old
influence.
It's the old influence model.
They definitely will not.
That's what I mean.
So counterpoint to theinfluencer model.
(19:08):
So since control is mitigated tonon-existent, you're providing
guidance and not guardrails.
How do you make that connectionbetween creators and brands that
are apropos?
And then how do you provide thatthat linkage, that alignment to,
in a sense, assure that thecommunication is organic and
(19:31):
natural and and whiplashes backto the brand in a way that
boosts their KPIs?
SPEAKER_00 (19:40):
So capitalism is the answer here, right?
The the incentive.
Capitalism is always the answer.
Well, the incentives arecompletely aligned, right?
If the if the creator postsvideos that don't sell the
product, they don't get paid,right?
(20:00):
So they only get paid when theydon't get any retainer deals.
There's nothing like that.
We don't believe in like bigretainer deals unless the brand
has worked.
Occasionally we'll pay acreator, we'll be like, hey, we
don't want you to work with anyof the competitors, right?
Like let's just say uh uh I'mtrying to name brands that
aren't our brands.
Um, let's just say I don't workwith Nike right now.
Let's just say that Reebok,right?
(20:22):
Was like there, and we're like,Yeah, we we Lego, you're a Lego
guy, right?
SPEAKER_01 (20:27):
You don't want to be a mega, mega blocks.
It's just gonna be.
SPEAKER_00 (20:30):
I can't name I can't name those brands.
SPEAKER_01 (20:32):
So okay.
Wow, you got you got some reach.
I'm just I'm just reaching intothe barrel and and it's your
you're yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:40):
So as of as of today, we don't work with Nike
or Reebok, and I really want towork Nike specifically.
I would love to work with you.
Um, I think that they're movingway too slow.
Nike and Lulu, those are onesthat it's just like, why?
I again I'm I don't know if youknow, I'm a Canadian.
Uh have lived was living inVancouver for a long time.
I actually live a little littleways away, but like all of these
incredible Vancouver brands aremoving way too slow.
(21:02):
They're moving way aritzia.
We see, I'm like, what is yourproblem?
Like, do you not understand thatthis is Blackberry, guys?
Come on, man.
Yeah, yeah.
Blackberry's gonna do massive onTikTok shop.
So today, by the way, just aquick aside, today they
announced a an invite-onlyprogram for digital products on
TikTok shop.
(21:22):
That is massive.
That is a really big people havebeen asking me about this for a
while.
Like, when are they gonna havedigital products?
So now all of the the unlocksthis massive category of digital
products on TikTok shop.
Absolutely huge.
Also, uh travel, travel iscoming to TikTok shop as well
right now through a specialTikTok program.
So, really very cool things thatare happening there.
(21:43):
So, um, so sometimes we'll lockup retainers, retainer deals for
certain creators so that theydon't go and work with the
competitor.
That's the only time that I canreally see see doing that.
Now, on the other side as well,right?
If a if a creator overpromisesThey talk about this pot and pan
set and they're like, Oh mygosh, this is the most
(22:03):
incredible pot and pan set.
You've never seen anything likethis, blah blah blah blah blah.
It does this, it does this, andthey lie about it.
They get their commission clawedback from refunds, right?
So the entire thing, it's abeautiful again, it is just
TikTok shop, it's just amicrocosm of capitalism.
SPEAKER_01 (22:20):
It's just like exactly the invisible hand of
Adam Smith, right?
Which is what you're saying.
So if you mess it up, creator,then your own profit plummets.
And if you're good at what youdo, you make money, and then the
brand is being disseminated.
SPEAKER_00 (22:37):
So versus influencer marketing did not have any of
that.
Influencer marketing is likesomebody will pay me four or
five grand to post for them,whether it drives sales or not.
And it doesn't matter.
There's no incentive for me todo more or less or whatever.
That's why I don't thinkinfluencer marketing works.
I think that it's like it'sthis, it's and again, influencer
(22:59):
marketing hasn't really beenaround that long.
Like, think like read shoe dog,uh, and read what Phil Knight
did, right?
Like that was fairly new.
It wasn't like a it wasn't athing like when he when he got
Michael Jordan on board, right?
That wasn't like that big of athing, and that was really like
the the advent of this type ofmarketing.
And again, there's there's someexamples of previously, but not
(23:22):
really, right?
And and so we've been workingout how to create this win-win
with people online, and nowevery single person can be a
creator.
That's wild, right?
That's really, really wild.
And then you see the otherplatforms, right?
You see YouTube coming on andmaking it easier and easier for
that to happen.
You see Instagram hopping onboard um at the same time,
right?
We're just we're just soeveryone knows, we are inundated
(23:46):
with these platforms coming tous, being like, How do we
launch?
Like, what should we do exactly?
Talk about being behind thecurve.
SPEAKER_01 (23:52):
I mean, the Instagram algorithm, and
frankly, the YouTube algorithmfor our creator sucks compared
to TikTok.
There's no accident that thatthe original algorithm was that
hot, and it became such a hotpotato, even politically,
because it works, it'sastonishing.
It's also scary.
Yeah, it really knows the userand measures the hell out of
(24:15):
everything, and it and it treatsit as a content focus to your
point.
It circulates and recirculatesyour videos.
Instagram never does that, yeah.
Right?
You don't need to tweak the SEOlike you need to do in in
YouTube.
Yeah, why do you need to map bea PhD in SEO to get your your
YouTube video visible?
(24:39):
What your content is, it shouldknow who you are and it should
match you with an audience.
What's so hard about it?
You have done all the workcreating your content, so all of
a sudden you need to be analgorithmic expert just to be
seen.
I mean, we're all we all feelthat.
Yeah.
Allow me to vent a little bit asa as a creator, and in a sense,
(25:00):
to extol the virtue of theTikTok algorithm as being
perfect for this kind ofexperience for both creator, for
brand, and for user.
Yeah, it is qualitativelydifferent, folks.
SPEAKER_00 (25:12):
TikTok is and this is why TikTok was able to have
TikTok shop absolutely take offwhen every third video is a
TikTok shop video, right?
They understood that peopleactually want to hear about new
products from regular people.
So go over to Meta, right?
So what one of the things thatwe do at Social Commerce Club is
we then take all of that, all ofthose videos, and then we take
(25:37):
the top videos, we get rightsfrom the creators to use them,
and then we use those over onMeta.
And what do you think the topperforming videos for all of
these massive brands are now?
They are these whitelisted,incredible creator videos on the
other platforms, right?
And they beat all of their othervideos.
That's crazy.
That's just crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (25:57):
It's not surprising, and then you've got built-in
editing tools like you know,CapCut is great.
Yeah, and then creators areempowered with creating their
own multimedia little clips,which are super fun.
And the other creators, too,just to add to that, is not just
even making money on product,but you grow your following
(26:18):
exponentially with every viralsuccess that you do for a brand.
SPEAKER_00 (26:23):
Totally, totally, and it does create it creates a
win-win between the creator,between the brand, right?
Then the brand's put puttingmoney behind your your videos,
which then gets you out to abigger audience and gets you a
better following, right?
It is it is the invisible handat work constantly.
So I I love that.
SPEAKER_01 (26:42):
Makes a hell of a lot of sense.
So how do you tap into a brand'sidentity?
So when you're working withbrands, you're you're
essentially a B2B resource here,it sounds like.
Yep.
Where I've got brand X and I'mI'm behind the curve and I know
I need to rock it on TikTok.
(27:03):
I've got an antiquated marketingand advertising team.
They're still placing hard copyads in People magazine, and I
need to have my game.
SPEAKER_00 (27:13):
I was thinking I was trying to think like what's
something worse than that.
I I can't maybe I can't think ofanything worse than that as far
as like what a marketing teamcould do.
SPEAKER_01 (27:20):
Go to your supermarket and there's people
magazine, and there's nomeasurement, no, yeah, nothing,
right?
Like, how the hell do you know?
It's like, you know, you'rewatching TV as a five-year-old,
and then you get an Alzheimer'sdrug ad on your TV watching the
cartoon.
I mean, really.
So we still have a long way togo, but the trailblazer is
(27:42):
exactly what you're talkingabout here.
So so how does it work?
I'm I'm uh I'm a CMO of acompany that that's gotta catch
up.
And I know that TikTok's hot andyou've got a proven reputation,
and you do this creator stuff onTikTok shop.
SPEAKER_00 (28:00):
Yes.
So it can't be it's this isn'tbrand, this isn't brand
marketing.
We don't start with brandmarketing, right?
We're not just putting all ofour products out there, right?
What we recommend is that youpick your top three products,
right?
That creators want to sell.
So beloved products thatcreators love.
So Ninja, um, which is not oneof our brands yet, but we're
(28:24):
actually talking to them nextweek.
Um, so I can talk about them.
Um so Shark Shark Ninja is areally, really good example,
right?
Their products that took off arebeloved products.
The ninja creamy is a productthat people love.
Now, how much does a ninjacreamy cost?
Something like$200.
It is it's it's a large amountof money, but creators love the
(28:47):
ninja creamy.
And so creators took thatproduct and it absolutely
crushed.
Shark Ninja does a massiveamount of revenue on here
because they looked at theproducts that creators would
love.
They're not selling vacuums,right?
Creators do not want to sell avacuum on there.
Now, maybe Dyson would be goodfor that, right?
Because people love the Dysonvacuums.
(29:09):
Whatever a creator would loveand can get behind, that is the
product to give to them, right?
And so, so that's really part ofthe key is figuring out which
part of your product line.
There are brands that we'rerecommending actually make
specific products for TikTokshop.
That's the crazy thing.
SPEAKER_01 (29:25):
I was gonna ask you about that.
So I love your approach, whichis you don't swim against the
stream and you take the lowestof low-hanging fruit of brands
of products that your creatorsare already loving and they
can't wait to talk about it.
So you're not forcing it onto acreator again, old school
influencer marketing, which isknowing nothing about the
(29:48):
audience, and here's here's fivegrand, beloviate about this, but
they're already using it orthey're enthusiastic about using
it.
Yes, and then the other pointyou're making, which is
terrific, which is it you don'thave a product like that yet,
which kind of fits that profile.
SPEAKER_00 (30:07):
Tweak it, make it totally, which is why some of
these big brands do notunderstand how to get on the
platform, right?
Like we have been in many, manyboardrooms.
I was in in Manhattan last week,and as a little Canadian over
there, oh my gosh, not little,but I'm like six, four.
SPEAKER_01 (30:26):
Well, you got tons of hair.
SPEAKER_00 (30:28):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
That really helped me with NewYorkers, I will tell you.
I had to puff my chest up alittle bit at points, you know.
Um trying to help these hugebrands understand what they're
going to have to do to get ontothe platform, right?
And uh, and again, this is why Iright now uh am trying to put
the book on the subject outthere is because it takes a
(30:49):
paradigm shift.
It is not just tactical, right?
I I have a YouTube channel withwith tons of videos, hundreds of
thousands of views constantlyfor tactics, but it's actually
not a tactical issue right now,right?
It's actually a paradigm shift.
I don't know if you've ever hadthis in your life before.
I'm sure you have, you know,seeing your your the amount of
(31:10):
hair you have right now, right?
Knowing that you've been throughsome stuff and you have this
massive paradigm shift.
And you're like, oh, I finallyget it.
I get exactly what we need todo.
I get what, and and that's theproblem is that brands don't get
this yet.
It it is, it's a very similar,very similar issue right now to
AI, in which we don't understandyet what that's going to look
like.
The amount of AI content that Iam constantly consuming to
(31:33):
understand, like, what is thenext world going to look like?
Like, our organization is goingto be hundreds of people soon.
And so, like, what do I do asthe founder of an organization
like that to prepare?
It's the same thing with brandsright now.
They need to understand thatthere is going to be this
massive shift that you're goingto have to make in your brain.
And that paradigm shifts are theabsolute basis to be able to
(31:57):
catapult off.
And you've seen it, you see itwith older people, right?
All the time.
You're like, Yeah, they justnever made the paradigm shift.
SPEAKER_01 (32:03):
It's the old executive.
So you have people who grew upwith influencer marketing.
The reason that they're seniormanagement is because they've
been an ass in a chair for 10,20 years.
Totally.
You need young talent, folks.
You get your intern and put themin charge for a week.
(32:24):
Seriously.
Seriously, because they get it,they live this stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (32:29):
Yeah.
PG was always really good atthis, right?
Where they took from the frontlines, right?
They took the feedback.
We're constantly trying to dothat.
In fact, I I'm so inspired by umby Elon's management in the way
that he goes and does skip levelmeetings throughout his
organization to find out likewhat is actually going on.
What is like, what is the painon the ground, like where he'll
(32:52):
just spend days upon days on theassembly line figuring out
what's going on.
I am so inspired by that.
And that is what TikTok shop andwhat social commerce does,
right?
It allows you to be on thefactory floor, hearing from your
creators constantly, having thisconstant feedback loop from
creators.
(33:12):
It it is it is incrediblycompelling uh to be able to,
again, just as a researchassistant for you, right?
Go ahead, break even on thechannel just as research to find
out what people actually want,right?
No longer are brands going, Ihave I have a whole chapter in
this book talking about how youcan cut your entire research and
development budget, right?
(33:34):
Because you have brands tellingor you're sorry, you have
creators telling you what to do,and then you have constant
validation from the market,right?
Like, especially in the states,guys, we have 200 million people
spending 90 minutes a day onthis platform.
Number one, like I just cannotbelieve that people spend that
much time on their phones on oneapp, right?
(33:56):
Like the that all aside, peopleare doing it, and so as brands,
you need to be where people are.
You're not going to, you know,morally, I'm like, I feel like a
cigarette executive in the 80swhere you're like, I think that
this is the cigarettes of ourday.
You're you're the madman TVshow.
Oh, a hundred percent.
A hundred percent.
Yeah, like one of my one of myuh soon-to-be business partners
(34:19):
uh lives in that kind of place.
And and I feel I'm like, ohyeah, that's right.
We're the we're the cigaretteexecutives.
Okay, I got it.
And and yet on the other side,we have created tens of
thousands of jobs at SocialCommerce Club for creators.
Oh, absolutely.
Right?
Incredible what we have beenable to do for them.
(34:41):
And then you look at the broaderecosystem, there's gonna be
millions of jobs created fromthis.
Like, I am so glad that in theStates they did not get rid of
TikTok because it would havebeen horrific economically.
I think about the amount ofthese millennial moms that don't
have to go into offices and canwork from home with their kids.
That's cool, that's super cool,right?
(35:03):
So that's what we hold on to andthe way that I sleep at night.
SPEAKER_01 (35:08):
Absolutely.
And and what about the newregime?
Uh, TikTok was bought ostensiblyto keep it in play.
And have you noticed changes tothe algorithm?
Is it more receptive than it wasbefore to monetization to
opportunities like TikTok shop?
(35:31):
Uh there's there's kind of a newmanagement.
There is a new management.
I hate it when people say kindof, sort of, in their speech.
You notice that?
If you yeah, you kind of, iteither is or it isn't.
SPEAKER_00 (35:47):
I so I was again at New York head office last week.
Um we have a lot of accessbecause we're one of the top
agencies in North America, andwe have not, I if I didn't know,
I wouldn't know um that there'smuch of a difference.
So uh as far as we can tell,it's business as usual.
It's being it's yeah, I don'tsee any difference.
(36:12):
I think it's just on paper.
SPEAKER_01 (36:14):
I understand it could be a sensitive subject to
you, but our listeners andviewers are wondering what
what's up because it you knowTikTok was almost bye-bye.
People were going over to thered line or whatever in China,
and they were uh outraged andjumping ship, and TikTok got
saved, it's uh under newmanagement, and uh people are
(36:35):
just wondering.
SPEAKER_00 (36:36):
Yeah, I so we see no difference, we see zero
difference as far as it beingmanaged, reassuring, I think, to
creators.
Yeah, I I think that creators,if if anything, they will figure
out how comparatively TikTok isunder monetized compared to
other channels.
So, one of the things thatpeople might not realize is that
(36:58):
TikTok was a horrible platformfor understanding the customer
journey from ads over into dotcom or Amazon.
And yet we knew that when weturned off TikTok ads, suddenly
everything stopped.
But we lived in this world whereeveryone had to measure
everything and justifyeverything, except for
(37:18):
influencers somehow.
And but paid media was likethat.
That's why I really believe thatthat's where TikTok shop came
from, is like they're like,okay, we need to figure out how
to actually show this.
And in a closed ecosystem, everysingle dollar is accounted for.
So much so now that likespending on GMV Max, which is
the automated platform that youuse to spend money on TikTok
(37:41):
shop ads.
It is, I I we have a toolinternally at Social Commerce
Club.
It's something actually we'regonna put out into the broader
ecosystem, but it's such an suchan insane tool that we're only
allowing our clients to have it.
It's called Halo.
It measures the Halo effect fromTikTok shop over onto these
other platforms, and it's wild,guys.
There's a there's a client ofours who does around 50 to 70k a
(38:05):
day on the platform, and they'redoing$200,000 extra on their
retail, their owned retail andtheir dot com and Amazon.
An extra$200,000 a day.
Think about that.
SPEAKER_01 (38:19):
Like they that's called omni channel, right?
Where it's absolutely it'sjumping from one to the other,
and then you've got people usingmultiple devices in different
ways throughout the day.
And people are acclimated,especially the digital natives
who are eating this stuff up, tojust be absorbing content from
multiple sources, multiplemodalities, and jumping from one
(38:41):
platform to another.
So that that makes all the sensein the world.
You did bring up paidadvertising, and I wanted to ask
ask you about that.
Now, being an influencer, beinga creator on TikTok, you could
go organic, which is you pumpyour content out there and see
what the algorithm will do foryou based on your content, based
(39:02):
on who you're following, basedon who's following you, and you
hope to grow.
Everyone wants to expand theirreach and engagement.
Then you have an opportunity topay to play.
And how does that factor intothe creator ecosystem in terms
of that capitalism that you weretalking about earlier?
SPEAKER_00 (39:24):
So brands still the here's one thing that that
people don't realize.
I think brands don't realizebefore they go in.
Brands, when they are employingor deploying capital on in paid
ads, also pay a percentage tothe creator still on their uh on
(39:46):
their videos.
And so it's not the samepercentage as organic.
So luckily, this is somethingthat we push back on in the
early days.
Again, we were one of the firstagencies here.
We're like constantly givingTikTok the feedback of like, no,
we need this.
So one of the big things that wepush back on at the beginning
was creators, we need to pay outcreators separately with organic
(40:07):
content and paid content thatwe're putting money behind.
And so often we'll have let'slet's say a 20% commission on
organic content and like an 8%commission on paid content.
That's to make up for the fact,like brands again to create a
real win-win, and this is whatwe're constantly talking about.
We need creators to understandbecause these creators are not
(40:27):
business people, they're likethe opposite of business people.
Like you do not want to, youhave to explain these things to
creators, right?
These are moms at home who arecreating really good at creating
content and selling stuff, butthey do not understand the
economics of selling thingsonline, right?
(40:47):
And so you need to help themunderstand, okay, we're gonna
pay you 20% here because we canafford it, and we're gonna pay
you 7% over here because we'realso putting ads behind it.
I think being more transparentwith your creators is great.
Hey, by the way, this channel weonly make 10% on.
That's not our regular, youknow, that's not our regular
profit that we're that we haveon other channels, but we're
(41:08):
doing it for this.
And should breaking down thecost for them, I think, is
really important because mostbrand, most creators don't
understand this.
SPEAKER_01 (41:15):
And would you inspire creators to run their
own ads?
SPEAKER_00 (41:19):
So, as you said that, I thought to myself, so
this is not an option.
As far as I know, this is not anoption on TikTok shop, is for
creators to run their own ads.
As I was thinking about this, Iwas like, man, like this is
classic affiliate marketing.
You would run your own adsbehind different offers.
This is not a thing on TikTokshop, as far as I know right
(41:40):
now, Mookie.
Like, this is creators have notgotten this far.
Now, me just being at TikTok, Ishould have brought this up to
them, and they should createsomething like this.
SPEAKER_01 (41:48):
Bring bring me along next time.
You can get reflected sunlightfrom my head in the in the
conference room.
SPEAKER_00 (41:55):
Well, it might actually it might actually help
a lot with my credibility, youknow, to come in.
They they all probably think I'mso young, you know, because of
this hair that I have here, youknow, but it's they're just
jelly like I am.
SPEAKER_01 (42:09):
That that's all.
That's all.
But again, I think this idea ofof integrating engagement with
paid advertising is evolving toyour point, and empowering
creators with that tool as well,because now, as a creator,
you're empowered to pump yourown ads that are that are just
(42:30):
your own content, right?
I mean, I get ads every damnday.
Every time I pump my own microinfluencer, micro creator
content on TikTok.
I get an opportunity, get 3x.
3x the views, Mookie, with thisgreat rant you just did about uh
you know Canadian hockey, andthen boom, right?
(42:52):
I can pay 20, 30, 50 withguaranteed reach.
SPEAKER_00 (42:58):
I I need to so you have you have gotten me thinking
here about this and whethercreators are able to do this or
not.
Um, this is something I'mputting in, I'm gonna make some
content about tomorrow.
Because this is a reallyinteresting idea and something
that I wonder if creators willstart gamifying and something
that we can help them gamify.
SPEAKER_01 (43:20):
Absolutely would.
There's no question about it.
Because as a creator, you'realways at decision point.
You know, when Yogi Berra saidum if you hit a fork in the
road, then take it.
Take it.
SPEAKER_00 (43:34):
So like just the best advice, though, by the way.
Just make make decisions, justmake a decision.
SPEAKER_01 (43:40):
Just keep going.
Just keep going.
Just stay in stay in motion,folks.
It doesn't matter if you mess itup.
You're in motion, so you couldget back on the on the on the
train.
Uh the the number one fork inthe road, every time you hit
post, you you've already alwaysgot it in the back of your mind.
Like if I actually Pumped a fewdollars into this, would it
(44:02):
exponentially increase my reachand pop me viral?
And then TikTok, frankly, playwith you with this.
TikTok will give you a giftevery once in a while as a
creator, where all of a suddenyou're getting an average
engagement rate of maybe a fewthousand views, and boom, you go
viral.
And then you're like, oh, thatfelt good.
(44:25):
But that's a blip.
You might go viral in a week,you might go viral in a month.
And you you got a taste.
And right after you go viral,they're like, hey creator, you
know, did you like that?
You want a little more?
SPEAKER_00 (44:42):
Totally.
And we do and creators do.
They do want more.
They always want more.
SPEAKER_01 (44:49):
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
And the other thing is what Ihave noticed about the new
ownership is that they'rethey're pushing monetization
even harder for creators thanthey did before.
SPEAKER_00 (45:00):
It's it's a drug.
I mean, that's the that's thething about all of this online
content is it is a drug.
When you see those numbers,you're like, I want more, I want
more.
Yes, it's playing into and andfor better or for worse, it is
the way that brands are blowingup right now, right?
And creators.
(45:20):
And I can't think of a betterway for brands to be able to get
out in the world right now thanon TikTok shop.
Like, there's no better way.
And I know the other platformsare coming, which again, we will
be first on all of thoseplatforms.
I have no doubt.
I just think that the brandsthat don't get it now and don't
build the muscle now are dead.
(45:42):
They're dead.
SPEAKER_01 (45:43):
I totally agree.
And frankly, I'm astonished asto how clunky Instagram still
is.
Yeah.
You know, I I post the exactthis is another phenomenon that
I'm sure you're familiar withamong creators.
I don't just post on TikTok, Itake the same damn video with
the same hashtags and the samecaptions and all the doodads,
(46:04):
and I put it on Instagram andYouTube, and I get one tenth,
one one hundredth, one onethousandth the engagement.
It's the exact same content.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (46:17):
It's yeah.
I mean, this is why TikTokbecame what it is.
This is why people spend so muchtime on TikTok.
SPEAKER_01 (46:26):
And there's like a billion and a half people on
Instagram, so Zuck is like,well, we're that's fine.
SPEAKER_00 (46:32):
Yeah, except except that I except they're really
lacking creators over there,right?
That is one thing that you thatyou have heard from them time
and time again that they want,they've been trying to pay
creators to move over hugeamounts of money.
There's stuff that came outwhere they're paying like
hundreds of thousands of dollarsto get creators off of TikTok
over to Instagram, right?
SPEAKER_01 (46:55):
Well, why would you do that?
The interface sucks, thealgorithm sucks, and you need to
do your SEO magic.
You've got all these experts whoare advising you how you need to
tweak your tagging.
Get out of here with this.
I just made content.
You should know who my audienceis.
(47:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Why?
Because TikTok already does agood job of it.
Yeah.
So it's astonishing.
It's it's really um thechallenge of leadership, you
know, when the the the leaderfalls asleep, like IBM
computers.
Yeah, absolutely.
You get tired and lazy, andfrankly, I think Meta is like
(47:37):
that, and even Google's likethat in the space.
I want to be respectful of yourtime, and I want to close it by
giving you a chance to pitch,which is I'm uh I'm a decision
maker at a brand, and I'm tryingto figure this out.
So, how what happens for me toget my brand up to speed?
(48:03):
What needs to change in my head,and then what tactical steps do
I need to do to build this armyof creators that'll energize me
in the social space in ways thatmy multi-channel digital
campaign with banners that noone looks at can never do now.
(48:26):
What's gotta happen, Jordan?
SPEAKER_00 (48:30):
Well, I think the first the first thing that I
would help you realize, Mookie,is that your ads are continuing
to cost more and more on thesechannels that you're trying to
shove content in front ofpeople, right?
If you've noticed your meta CPAgoing up massively and your
frequency on meta going upconstantly, the reason that's
(48:51):
happening is that the contentthat you're putting out there is
only reaching this certainaudience that will buy no matter
what, right?
And you no longer are able toget in front of the people that
matter, right?
And the new people that aremaking purchases.
And so you've hit this smallamount of audience that everyone
else is going after that sucksat advertising right now, right?
(49:14):
And and you don't know whatpeople out there want, right?
You don't know what yourcustomer wants anymore because
you're not close enough to them.
You don't have the close enough,tight enough feedback loop to
understand what they want.
SPEAKER_01 (49:29):
Bing! The creators know, because they got two
audiences, yeah.
See that that's that's thebeauty.
That's how I wanted to tie thisall in and out.
I can do all the market researchin the world and I can hire
McKinse and all these otherfolks, and it's nothing compared
to an army of creators withtheir own following reaching out
(49:50):
personally in the digital spaceon a platform that has an
effective algorithm like TikTok.
I think that that's the keydifferentiator.
SPEAKER_00 (49:59):
One of the big things that I want to launch in
the next call it three months.
I'd love to launch next week, isthe McKinsey of social commerce
change.
I don't think that anyone seeshow to do it yet.
And this is how big orgs changeis with big amounts of data and
and this that's how you change,that's how you move a big
(50:22):
creator, the lens of your troopsin the field, right?
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (50:27):
All that petabytes of data flying at you, right?
One on one.
Exactly.
Ladies and gentlemen, Mr.
Jordan West, the Social CommerceClub, activating creators and
connecting them with brands todo marketing and advertising in
a way that's no longer marketingand advertising.
(50:48):
What would you call it, Jordan?
Just to put a cap on this.
What do we call this new kind ofengagement through the lens of
social through creators?
SPEAKER_00 (50:59):
This is social commerce.
This is word of mouth at scale,is social commerce.
SPEAKER_01 (51:04):
Respectfully, that you need to rebrand that brand.
Social commerce sounds boring,Jordan.
I'll think about it.
You need a term with Zing,buddy, for this.
Come back to me, and we'll doanother podcast, and we'll think
of something that's sexier thansocial commerce.
Come on, you're a you're asalesman.
SPEAKER_00 (51:25):
That sounds good.
I'll I'll be back for that.
SPEAKER_01 (51:27):
Get some riz.
Like, comment, share everybody,subscribe, bald ambition.
Thanks so much to Jordan.
I would love to follow up withyou and see where this is
headed.
And good luck with your pitchcoming up.
Yeah, thanks for having me on.
Especially with that buff on ahair, you're gonna rock it,
buddy.
Popular Podcasts
Hey Jonas!
Hey Jonas! The official Jonas Brothers podcast. Hosted by Kevin, Joe, and Nick Jonas. It’s the Jonas Brothers you know... musicians, actors, and well, yes, brothers. Now, they’re sharing another side of themselves in the playful, intimate, and irreverent way only they can. Spend time with the Jonas Brothers here and stay a little bit longer for deep conversations like never before.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by Audiochuck Media Company.
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.