#130 Jordi Llonch Esteve - Revolutionizing Travel with Bitcoin and Nostr - Ben Wehrman Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Now I'm trying to find these communities of digital nomads, frequent travelers,

(00:04):
flat theorists.
The more I talk to these people, they understand freedom, but not from the money
point of view, but from the geographical point of view.
I'm here more to discuss how to make our lives easier.
And guess what?
For just by coincidence, the underlying principles that we are using are these

(00:29):
freedom technologies that happen to be called Bitcoin and Nostra.
And we are live.
Hello, everyone.
Thank you for coming by for another episode of the Ben Wurman podcast.
I am here with Jordi Yonk today.
Very excited for this one.
We have so much interesting things to talk about, a lot of things that we have in common

(00:50):
and some new things that we were talking about.
So, Jordi, thanks for coming by, man.
I appreciate being here.
It's a pleasure, Ben.
Happy to be with you today here in your audience.
so frequent listeners will remember back when i talked to alex svetsky our friend who's building
satlantis he recommended i get in touch with you and right around that time i saw your episode pop

(01:11):
up on daniel prince's podcast and your name has been sort of dispersing around through the bitcoin
world talking about nostre talking about fiat airlines so uh very excited to get into this
i would like to start with just a story i like to get people's backstory and yours came from
being a pilot. So tell me this, this backstory of how you go from pilot falling into Bitcoin and

(01:35):
then Noster. Yes. So my name is Jordi and I started my, my professional work life as a
airline pilot. When I was 22, I graduated from school and guess what? That was 2008. Yay.
financial crisis so I had to find a job somewhere so I luckily landed a job in Austria

(02:01):
pun intended in this case and I had to get to learn English get to learn German and because of that
I started like a personal discovery of myself like who I really was because when you're at home when
you're studying and you're keeping or you are staying in your circle of of trust and

(02:21):
you never leave your your your comfort zone life is different so there I was 22 year old
in a new country new culture although it was still Europe it was a new culture there was
a lot of cultural differences in this cultural shock shock so and just to fill in for listeners

(02:44):
So you're originally from Spain, so kind of back around different European countries.
So, yeah, it's Europe and maybe some foreigners that have never been here, they think that Europe is one thing.
No, Europe is like a mixture of a lot of cultures.
And we don't even have the same language.
And even the countries that speak the same language, they have dialects.

(03:05):
So it's such a new adventure for a 22-year-old kid like me at a time.
So, well, I spent my life for flying for seven years for this company called Austrian Airlines.
So if anybody is listening that flew somewhere from anywhere in Europe to Austria or from Austria to anywhere in Europe or Russia or North of Africa, maybe I was your pilot.

(03:32):
and for seven years I started learning a lot about different cultures and
through my different experiences in all these other places and this is how I got
I got into the traveling discovery mode of my life and you know I heard the word

(03:55):
Bitcoin a couple of times, but I was so caught on my job and trying to not lose my job at
the time.
You know, it was like this big crisis.
So everybody was focused on the things we shouldn't focus because the narrative, the
world narrative was now you have to be here, you know, the rat race and all those things.
And of course I was working my ass off and I was being poorer and poorer, even though

(04:21):
I had a good job.
But, you know, for those listeners that never met a pilot before, we pilots are not multimillionaires.
So it's just a high paid job.
But I compare it normally to a surgeon.
It's a job that pays well if you put the hours.
But when you're putting the hours, you don't have time for anything else.
So that's why I decided to just reduce my job.

(04:43):
And I was working just 12 days a month.
So which gave me time because, you know, the more you fly, you know, when you are a passenger and you're flying,
that you get exhausted. Like, why? I did nothing. I was just sitting there. Well, you go up, you go
down. It's like climbing a mountain faster than you would climb it with your feet. So the body
expands and comes back to the same position. So when you are even taking the responsibility of

(05:11):
piloting the plane, it gets even more exhausting. So I decided to lower my rhythm of work and also
try to reduce the hours even though it's all regulated and but you know the closer you are
to the sun the closer you are to the cosmic radiation this also affects your it can affect

(05:31):
your life cycles it kind of it just affects the quality of your health so that's why i decided to
try to reduce as much as possible and keep doing what i liked but not as a job but more as more of
of a decision, a personal decision.
So I had free time.
So then I said, what shall I do?
So normally people at that time,

(05:53):
normally they get married and have kids,
but I was not in the mood for that.
So I joined the university
and I studied something more creative
where I wanted to compensate for my logical,
analytical skillset as a pilot
and to have something more creative.
And I stumbled upon the subject called entrepreneurship,

(06:13):
And look, I liked building things that then can be monetized and sold and help bring to the economy solutions that the economy itself will value by paying for it or not.
So this is how I got into entrepreneurship.
I launched a couple of startups.

(06:35):
I quit aviation after we became...
One of my startups was an educational platform.
peer-to-peer educational platform, something new in Europe.
In the U.S. and the U.K. and Australia,
peer tutoring is a thing, but not in Europe.
So I built this peer tutoring platform for Spanish

(07:00):
and then European clients.
So after that, I sold it.
After a couple of years, I decided to finish my time
as being a pilot as well. And then I decided to help other entrepreneurs, CEOs, and corporations
to work on innovation based on all my learnings. And, you know, Bitcoin sounded when I was a pilot,

(07:27):
then I was doing my thing. I heard crypto, I heard blockchain, but I was so stubborn working on my
own thing that I didn't pay much attention until, and I have to be grateful to my beloved
government, because I finally learned Bitcoin during the pandemic, during the lockdowns.

(07:52):
Like so many people.
I was right there too, man.
Right 2020.
I was in, were you also traveling at that time?
Were you a nomad at this point?
Yes. With my startup, I was going to every place I found customers. And for some years, I had to go to Switzerland for a while to launch some pilots. Then a couple of years ago, I went to South Korea for a couple of months as well. So I was just going to the places where my clients were interested to work with me.

(08:27):
So, yeah, but then the lockdown comes and it's like, okay, now what?
So you have more free time.
I was working from home, but you know, you avoid the commutes and you have more time
and you have nothing else to do.
I like to do, I like to practice a lot of sports.
Actually, I'm wearing my clothes because after this call, this conference call, I am, I'm

(08:48):
going to my gymnastics practice.
So the pandemic didn't allow me to do all these, all these things.
So I was curious about money and I started studying about the origins of money.
Not money as having a lot of zeros in your bank account, but what is money?
I don't know why.
I was curious, okay?

(09:08):
Don't tell me why I wanted, but since I was a kid, I always played with Monopoly and I'll
dealt with my parents.
I'm curious about money, but never had the curiosity of understanding it.
So I started reading books, looking at podcasts.
my favorite one was the last one of course i do not recommend this for the the one the person that

(09:29):
is listening as for the first time but maybe the season bitcoiner i recommend broken money from
linalden because it tells you the whole story of what is money from a technological point of view
and then i learned what bitcoin is and i was like okay so finally i understand how the world works

(09:50):
And from there, I started helping.
I don't know if your audience knows, but here in Barcelona, we have, in Spain, I live in Barcelona,
we have a big community, which is called the Barcelona Bitcoin Only Group.
And we are like the most active Bitcoin community in Spain.

(10:10):
I don't want to compare it to what's going on in Uvita, in Costa Rica.
that's the most dense
Bitcoin circular economy
because, you know, we in Spain
we think we are good, Europe is good
you know, we are all
sitting in this, like this frog
in this pan that is
sitting comfortably

(10:30):
with the warm water
not hot, just warm
It's like a nice jacuzzi
that just keeps going up a little bit
starting to get a little uncomfortable
Alright, so we have frogs in a jacuzzi
I'm going to start using this from now on
I like it.
And so the size of our community is more like we talk about the technology of it.

(10:51):
So how to build a node, how to build a miner, or how to be sovereign.
So this is the type of conversations that we have.
And of course, some merchants accept Bitcoin, but it's just maybe a dozen or two dozens of merchants in Barcelona, which means nothing.
But still, luckily after the pandemic, after the lockdowns, I was lucky to find them.

(11:15):
They welcomed me and now I'm one of the administrators and co-organizers of the event.
We do one event a month one meetup We are a thousand people in the Telegram group which is a lot We meet between 50 to 100 people every month just for the meetups to talk Today we going to talk The other day we

(11:36):
invited one of the most recognized mathematics professors that is studying cryptography in Spain.
So we invited him to say, are quantum computers going to break the Bitcoin cryptography?
So it was such a technical conversation.

(11:56):
What was his answer?
Of course not.
No, don't worry.
We don't have to worry about that.
He was talking about the qubits of the computers that we have today and the asymmetric algorithms that Bitcoin uses.
And how Bitcoin would adapt and the Bitcoin miners would then adapt those things too.
Of course, of course. But, you know, there are fear, uncertainty and doubt narratives in every wave. And now this is the current wave. So that's what people talk about on mainstream media. So we hear our audience and we ask them, what are you worried about? And then we come to confront these ideas with actual professionals, you know, not just.

(12:40):
That's amazing. That's the best way to bring people through the steps is just to give them the best speakers on exactly what their concern is. And this is one of the things that I remember learning way back in the day when I was going through my fiat schooling.
I had a sales class and they teach you, figure out what a person's specific needs are or what their biggest pain point is.

(13:04):
And don't talk about anything else.
Just focus on that and give them the correct information that helps them break through that wall.
And then they're good to go.
Yes, this is just listening to your audience.
This is how you make business.
And now maybe it's easier for you and for I to understand.
But maybe the audience, if they have never been there building a business, then that might sound like new to them.

(13:30):
So this is one of the groups that I am part of, that I am very proud of being able to be there and organize events there.
You mentioned Alex, Alex Zbetsky, the CEO of Atlantis.
He and I were there at the Barcelona Cyphers Conference just one week ago.
And this was the first conference that we organized in Barcelona.

(13:55):
And it was in English, so allowing everybody from all over the place to come.
And it was such an explosion of topics, interest, friendships, and all about these parallel structures.
And so one of the parallel structures that normally comes when you enter in Bitcoin is Nostre.

(14:17):
And this is how I got to discover Noster.
And I remember I was in Nostriga one or two years ago.
And to me, it sounded all too complex.
Like, oof, Noster.
Everybody was asking me, do you have Noster?
Can I follow your Noster?
I was like, what are you talking guys about?
And luckily for all the Bitcoiners that we have put already the hours

(14:40):
and understand all these cryptography, public and private keys,
then it's easier to get in.
But still, I remember that getting into Noster, you really have to want to get inside.
And this is a rabbit hole that you have to opt in voluntarily.
So it's not easy.

(15:00):
If anybody's listening to us and never heard of it, don't worry.
Don't even bother.
And Ben, this is something that I'm starting to say.
I don't use the words Bitcoin or Noster anymore to normies.
I don't want to scare them or to create a wall.
Because every time I go to a place, my job is go places, go discover circular economies,

(15:25):
discover Bitcoin conferences, Bitcoin communities, and local communities.
Now I'm trying to find these communities of digital nomads, frequent travelers, flat theorists.
the more I talk to these people
that they understand freedom
but not from the money
point of view but from the geographical
point of view. The moment I start

(15:47):
using the words Bitcoin
or Noster
they just roll their
eyes like this. It's like
okay so you're just here
you're a crypto bro. You're trying to sell me your
course. You're trying to get rich
quick. You're trying to pump your bags
yeah
so for
I know that all your audience already knows what we're talking about, but if anybody just

(16:12):
tune in for the first time and is curious, don't worry.
We're not going to talk about technicisms or difficult things.
I'm here more to discuss how to make our lives easier.
And guess what?
But just by coincidence, the underlying principles that we are using are these freedom technologies that happen to be called Bitcoin and Noster.

(16:39):
But we don't even have to know how this call is going, how Netflix works.
I just want to tune in my TV and a movie pops in.
So this is my new approach after I've been in touch with many communities.
That's interesting. I've never really thought of that.
that's quite interesting i never thought of that as a strategy because

(17:03):
it is interesting because so many people out there and i'm sure you've seen this
everywhere the majority of people well actually i'm curious of your thoughts on this because it
kind of changes over time depending on your environment but yeah it's a good thing that
people have heard of bitcoin before so it's in their brain that they have some comfortability

(17:24):
with that word because they've heard it many times but there's also so much negative press
being put out by the mainstream so they usually have a sort of neutral like oh yeah i've heard of
this thing it's weird i missed out on i wish i would have got it earlier yes but sometimes they
they've if they're plugged into the more fiat finance places like cnn they think oh that's one

(17:46):
of the the bazillion cryptos like i don't really know about it but it sounds like it's you know oh
i heard it crashed the other day so too late or whatever you know just one of these stupid things
and just not even using those.
So what words do you use?
I'm curious.
Give me the pitch as a newbie.
How do you explain Bitcoin and Nostra
to people without using those words?

(18:06):
I'm curious to hear your strategy here.
So first of all,
I'm tackling into these frequent travelers
and digital nomads audiences, right?
So I have to bear in mind,
it's like, well, who is these people?
They are normally people in their late 30s, early 40s.
they are normally married and have normally they have children like new baby borns like

(18:31):
a couple of years old so first i need to understand this it's like why are you traveling
and they normally travel for different reasons so depending on the subgroup of these frequent
travelers i i talk to i use one words of the others the most popular is the one that travels
looking for freedom, geographical freedom.

(18:51):
Like I am, I don't know, I'm a German
and I'm tired of this shitty weather
and I just want to go live in Bali
for a couple of months, maybe six months.
Then I want to be a couple of months in Spain
and then the other months I will go back to Germany
to visit my family and to celebrate Christmas, right?

(19:13):
So first I need to understand the subgroup.
This is a big subgroup.
50% of nomads are normally American.
So just change the weather maybe for another reason.
So first I need to understand why am I talking?
Are you European?
Are you American?
If you're American, you already know about freedom or you think so.
Because then when you travel from one country to another,

(19:34):
and this is something that is very popular from the different subsets of nomads,
you start realizing that, imagine you're an entrepreneur or you're a remote worker
and you're charging your client your next invoice.
Oh, wow, wait, my invoice didn't went through
because now you are in Chiang Mai in Thailand

(19:58):
and your IP, the bank flagged it as unusual
and you thought you were free,
but you cannot get your money,
so you cannot pay your rent.
So what I'm trying to say is,
and I do workshops every time I go to these places,
And I ask who has had the bank accounts freezed for a week, for a while, or even the payment bounced back to the originator.

(20:26):
And then I get some hands raised.
And then I start telling them, well, that's because you're using some tools, some technologies that are not prepared for that.
So I'm here to tell you about some freedom technologies.
And I'm not telling you which technology it is.
I start asking questions.

(20:46):
Are you using Venmo?
Are you using a traditional bank wire?
Are you using PayPal?
And then they say, yo, no, I use PayPal, but after I moved such amount of money, they blocked
me.
Okay.
What did you do?
No, I opened a new bank like Wise or Revolut bank account.
But after I moved from different countries or I open or I collect connected with a different

(21:10):
IP because I use a VPN for, because I want to connect to my server in my home in the US,
whatever, they block me again.
So I say, well, this is because the money doesn't go from your client to you.
It does a couple of jumps in before, in between.
And because of that, one of the jumps thinks that you are a terrorist or somebody got into

(21:35):
your bank account.
So they just want to prevent you from being robbed.
So then, yeah, but what can I do?
How can I avoid all these jumps?
So then I start asking, I offer different solutions.
Like, well, you can ask your client to send you an envelope with the money.
No, man, this is so dangerous.
It can get robbed by the post office.

(21:57):
Well, there are remittances.
You can ask Western Union or RIA.
No, it's too expensive.
They charge 30%.
I'm like, okay, yeah, but you're asking so much.
And then some of them, they say, Bitcoin?
So it's only when they say the word.
I just try to bring up all the pain points for these people that they think they're free, but they are not.

(22:20):
And once they say Bitcoin, I can say, I don't know if you're ready.
So it's like, I don't want to bring that up.
I want to say, OK, maybe.
But do you know what Bitcoin is?
And then it's them.
because if you try to, no, I compare this to, you know, the Jehovah, I don't know how they're called.

(22:41):
They knock at the door, hello, they have five minutes to talk.
Jehovah's Witness, yeah.
They, they.
It's like, no, I don't have time.
Maybe I care, our religion, everybody's like, go away.
Who invited you to my home So when we start orange peeling people by we trying to share or to spread the good news then this is creating a blockage

(23:04):
to our
counterparty.
People have a natural wall built up.
They don't like being sold stuff.
Yeah, because the things that they heard,
as you said, they are either neutral
or negative.
If they would have heard good things, they would be
open, but because traditional media is doing their job,
very well, which of course, if I own media, I would do the same because it's my country,

(23:27):
my rules, right? Or if it's, if I'm the, if I'm the ruler and I have the power, I would
do the same to protect my status. That's why we have to separate people from money from
people so they don't have this power. But I understand they're doing the job they are
supposed to be doing. So we cannot force anyone to wake up. And maybe I'm saying obvious things

(23:48):
here, but it's like in the matrix, nobody woke up Neo, he decided to wake up himself.
So it's the same.
We can give hints, put some hints like, yes, oh, follow the white rabbit and those things,
you know, but only if you want to follow me, you'll see where it goes.
So this is how I get people to talk about Bitcoin.

(24:11):
And then to talk about Noster, I go again to another subgroup of these nomads and frequent travelers that they are normally their own bosses.
They have micro enterprises or they are content creators, maybe developers, musicians, artists, bloggers, YouTubers.

(24:36):
I don't know if I said that.
So it's people that create content.
So then I use the same thing. Where can I follow you? It's like you, Ben. I follow you in a couple of social networks.
And then I ask, okay, why do you have so many social networks? Why not just one?
No, because not everybody's here, so then I have to have different social networks.

(24:58):
Or maybe I have different audience target groups, so I need to have maybe two or three accounts on YouTube.
my first channel, the secondary, the bloopers.
And, you know, because maybe sometimes I say some things
that if I say my primary channel,
YouTube doesn't like it and they will block me.
Ah, blocking.
Have you been blocked?

(25:19):
It's the same.
They block you the money.
Then I said, they block you the speech.
And then they're like, yeah, but it's exhausting
to have my Twitter, my LinkedIn, my TikTok,
my blah, blah, blah, blah.
I'm like, yeah, it is.
Wouldn't it be awesome if we would have only one place
that never can be censored.
Yeah, I wish, I wish.

(25:40):
What if I tell you there is something
and that you can get money directly from your audience
without having to relay on a third party
that maybe pays you by a paper
or maybe you get paid in USD,
but you are from a country that you are not using USD,
so then you have to be dependent on the change
or maybe you have to open a bank account in the US

(26:04):
And for doing that, you have to then to do the counting.
And if you are, and then taxes come in and I don't know.
So it's like, I know, I know.
And I know that you may be just, you're just happy creating content, but now you have to
be an expert accountant, an expert, an expert in social network marketing.

(26:25):
So like, I'm just a musician.
I just want to share my, my lyrics and my songs.
So then people is exhausted.
it. So it's like, maybe are you ready for something different? Yes, please, please. And
that is when I say, okay, post something here. Post if you're an artist, post one of your

(26:46):
pictures. Imagine you're a photographer. Download this up and post a picture. And then I subbed
them and I send them, I don't know, a couple of thousand sets. I said, that's for you.
my tip no way really i just made money no intermediary peer-to-peer so i the first zap
is very popular that that is when people's brains start to click is when they actually get that and

(27:10):
i tell them hey you you've heard about bitcoin all these years you know that people that have
bitcoin are making big gains and they're doing quite well and i was going to mention that as
well because when we're talking about the different feelings people have toward bitcoin like you said
it's often neutral or negative from the mainstream media. But even if they have a friend that's

(27:30):
really positive about Bitcoin, because they've been preaching it for years, they still think,
oh, there's like a little bit of jealousy in there that they didn't get in earlier from that
when that person did. So they're like, even though I have heard it's good, I didn't get it early
enough. So it's really, there's just walls on every level, no matter how positive or negative
they are. But the second that they just get some, I find that a lot of those misconceptions

(27:53):
instantly melt away and they it's easy to explain to them this thing's been around for a while right
it keeps going up here's a chart of it going up forever now you have some and all you had to do
is post a picture on social media like you already do so there's no friction there to your all your
routine yeah so i that's when you see the beautiful moment of oh wow this is okay i get it now and it

(28:16):
It needs to be a value for value, like you do on your socials.
If I send you 5,000 sats for nothing, I think the value that you perceive is less.
You have to do something to earn them.
So this is how I normally onboard people when I send them some sats.

(28:37):
Proof that you are worth it.
Proof of work.
Yeah, and one of my favorite things to do, I'm not sure if you've seen me do this,
But when I am bringing someone through the steps and getting them on to Noster, I will always make sure they have an amazing introductions post.
And for those listening that haven't heard of this, this is one of the storied traditions of Noster is that the hashtag introductions is when you introduce yourself to the community.

(29:03):
And it's still small enough to where you can instantly, you can go pretty viral on there just by having a good first post where you explain who you are, what you're about, what you like to do, and a few pictures of you doing stuff.
And just so people know that you're a real person and you're interesting and you have some unique traits.
Just yesterday, I saw an introductions post of a woman who plays all sorts of instruments.

(29:29):
She's a singer.
She's an artist.
She loves horses.
and like, very cool.
You're awesome.
I'm going to zap you.
And everyone comes in and repost this person
and they're excited to have them.
And that is cool too when people see that,
oh, I'm actually appreciated here.
I've never, my first post on Instagram, nobody saw it.
And my, you know, everywhere else,

(29:50):
you don't get anything, but here people actually care.
And you can spin the small community size right now
as a positive in that way,
if you angle it correctly and say,
look, it's much smaller than Instagram,
obviously but these people really care about this they're very passionate they're very active in
participating in this value for value thing so if you create good value for people you're going to

(30:11):
see it back in zap yes 100 percent one thing i would love to go back to before we get deeper into
the the nostrils atlanta stuff is i don't want to skip over the whole airline thing because
this is something that i am always in contact with and especially when talking with fellow

(30:34):
travelers and nomads as we're talking about how much the flying experience just sucks now
it just feels like
they don't care about their customers very much a lot of the time when you go through the different
steps in the process you don't get great service uh flights are always getting delayed and people

(30:55):
are losing their bags everywhere and they're being, you know, the classic is when you're
going through the choices on the website, buying your tickets is, oh, would you like
to pay extra money for insurance in case we lose your bags or we delay your flights?
It's very fiat across the board.
And I'm curious, how do you describe when you look at it now with Bitcoin or eyes, understanding

(31:16):
the how fiat money ruins everything and how this airline industry is very uniquely ruined
by fiat because it's become quite attached by the government. The government now has taken this
thing with the kiss of death and says, oh, you're too important to go under. So anytime there's
a problem in the world, like we saw during 2020 COVID stuff, all these airlines were in huge

(31:41):
trouble. The government said, oh, just take all this money, just throws money out and bails them
all out and keeps them safe. How do you describe fiat airlines to a person wondering what's going
on with the airline industry and why it just seems like it sucks.
Yes.
And this is something that in the airline industry, it is seen more aggressively because
it's a bigger industry.

(32:02):
This happens, these fiat problems happen at all scales.
The problem is that with airlines, you know, the airline industry, and I'm telling you
this from the pilot point of view, meaning I was not an investor of airlines or I was
not running an airline. But we pilots have a little bit of understanding on how these

(32:28):
things work. And airlines, either they work very well or they go bankrupt very badly.
There is no middle ground. An airline is not going to make, it's not going to become a
profitable business.
It's going to be a super profitable business.
So either it works very well or it goes bad, very badly.

(32:50):
So that's why, and I know that because I started, you know, my first job at the
airport was just loading bags at the airport.
So I tried to understand all the chain involved, all the steps involved in the
operation of a flight from loading the bags, loading the passengers, selling the tickets,

(33:15):
checking in. And those business, again, it's the market. So those things happen depending on market
dynamics. And again, I'm using the airline industry as an example, but everybody that is listening
can extrapolate it to any type of industry. The problem is that with the airline, the numbers that
we're talking about that much, much bigger.

(33:37):
So the problem happens when you do not let the market play alone.
When you put somebody that wants to be a third player and change the rules
whenever they want, whenever they feel like, and this is the government.
And this is something that I explained in detail at Prince's Podcast.
And I know that because I started working at this little airport,

(34:01):
south of Barcelona, loading bags to the Ryanair flights.
And it was a small airport that nobody cared.
I mean, it's just like a private field.
So anybody could run their own small airplane and fly on the weekends.
You know this is the typical thing that people do when they are wealthy enough and they have time So there is this smart company called Ryanair that they realize that this airport is underutilized It has some features for big planes to land

(34:38):
and but he doesn't want to do all the innovation or capital investment required to bring passengers.
So then he goes to the region that operates that airport and says, if you would help me
to throw some marketing or if you gave me some benefits, I could bring you people to your region.

(35:03):
And then these people probably will spend in your region and will make like, will increase the
economy. And it was very smart. And this is what, that was the Reiner, one of the Reiner's
business models that was convincing local governments that had an urge to increase their

(35:25):
money backs because their governments and the only thing they know what to do is spend.
They don't know how to generate. So then comes somebody says, I will give you more tourists.
so they will buy more beers and you can tax alcohol higher so then you make more revenue

(35:47):
and this is the business model the typical Ryanair business model to boost a zombie
a zombie ritual which for governments that was perfect so they just had to
for some money, promote that airport, make maybe tax breaks for these airlines,

(36:12):
and they could bring more passengers.
The problem of that is that it only works until it stops working,
until the government decides, I'm not going to give you this tax break anymore.
I'm not going to subsidize you the fares, so now the passengers have to pay it.
And that's why you've seen, and in the U.S. you have Southwest.

(36:33):
So they were the pioneers that copied the playbook.
So yeah, this works temporarily.
And now you're telling me that you have like these bad experiences flying.
Yeah, because once the subsidies are out, then somebody has to pay for the whole operation.

(36:58):
Either the passengers pays for the operation or the airline has to come up with creative ways of keeping the price low.
And the people that fly with these low fares airlines are people that were not supposed to fly, that didn't have enough money to pay for the whole operations.

(37:19):
So that's why a third party has to step in to help you to do something that you're not supposed to do.
So the government, instead of helping people to become maybe more educated, to get better infrastructure so they can prosper and get better jobs and get a better income, instead of doing that, it's like a patch.

(37:41):
They put a patch and they say, no, it's fine.
You don't need to be smart.
You don't need to be productive in the economy.
It doesn't matter.
Just travel and buy more beers.
And this is the type of operation that you have.
And this is just one of the business models that I believe that it's not sustainable at the long place.

(38:04):
And we Bitcoiners, you know, with this low time preference that we have, that's why we feel that this is not the type of...
And then, again, and we're choosing to fly with these airlines.
If we don't want that, we are free to book our own private jet.
We can do that, right?
Nobody's forcing you to fly low cost.

(38:24):
But this is what the market is offering.
So nobody's going to fly with his private jet or first class because it's too expensive.
So maybe we're not supposed to fly if we cannot afford it.
So once every time I enter to one of those low cost flights as a passenger, I say to

(38:46):
myself, it's your choice.
Nobody forced you.
The government created these incentives to offer this, but if we, the passengers stopped
flying, then those flights would stop existing.
So it's not all the government's fault.
The government just kickstart the snowball effect and then it's on our hands.

(39:10):
And that's why I say that Bitcoin is like a pacifist revolution.
We can help define the state without even touching them, which to me, it's powerful.
It's very powerful.
Yeah, absolutely.
And when you hold that sound money that gains value over time, and of course, it takes a

(39:31):
little bit of handholding to show people, yes, I know it went down a few percent today and
a few percent up the next.
It's volatile in fiat terms, but if you can get them to look at a long enough timeframe,
it does always gain value over time because it's programmed to unlike fiat, which is the opposite.
And it starts to rewire your brain to think longer term and think about these things. For example,

(39:54):
as you're talking about the private jets, I'm thinking about, man, I can't wait till I have so
much Bitcoin. I can just fly private everywhere and I can solve this problem in a better way.
And it's powerful stuff. It's crazy how much people's brains change when they
they hold Bitcoin and how they look at these topics differently because possible.

(40:14):
Now, now you start to understand that this is possible.
Something that a normal listening to me might think, this guy is crazy.
What's he saying?
It's impossible.
Wait, wait, wait a bit.
Yeah.
Our generation will, will be able to see that.
Yeah.
Very cool.
I love that.

(40:34):
And another thing that you, you mentioned earlier in, in, during your
introduction story that I just took a note here and I want to touch on is bringing it back to the
people level within that industry, the pilots themselves, and other high stress, important
jobs you mentioned, like surgeons, you know, these people who have a lot of responsibility on their

(40:57):
shoulders, we need to think about them too, because they have a very important job there,
their many lives are in their hands when they are flying. And as you mentioned, as well,
these people don't make a lot of money right now they're not making much money and they're being
because of this government sort of latching itself onto this industry you get all the the dei stuff

(41:22):
of hire like forcing them to hire people with different skin colors for diversity and oh oh
shoot a bunch of more planes are falling out of the sky now what do you know because they're not
being hired on merit anymore. So you get all these government issues that come with everything
the government touches. And it freaks me out as someone that does a lot of flying and knows a lot

(41:46):
of people that do a lot of flying that it's becoming less safe for those people who are flying.
And it's just getting harder for the pilots. So have you ever tried to orange pill other pilots
and talk to them about this? Like, hey, this is the problem here. This is why it's getting harder
and how you can actually protect yourself.
Well, luckily, during my experience as a pilot,

(42:09):
maybe it was a time where there was less wokeness.
I've never seen any of that.
So I can tell that the selection process
to become a pilot is extremely difficult, extremely.
You go to school, you get your license,
you get your university degree.
Once you got it, they don't care.
They do you more tests, they do more exams, psychological.

(42:30):
Of course, there are people that will get in.
I'm talking about maybe 10 or 15 years ago.
So maybe I don't know how things are now, but I believe, I want to believe that.
Not better.
It can't be better.
So unfortunately, at the time I was a pilot, I didn't care about Bitcoin.

(42:52):
So the only conversations I remember having about Bitcoin is talking with a couple of pilot friends.
And we saw it from the fear perspective.
We did not, because you know, we pilots, we think we know, you know, it's like, Hey,
I'm a pilot.
Treat me with respect.
You know, my ego, my ego is that there, over there.

(43:14):
So it's like, I know everything.
So that's a problem.
Like we believe we know, and we only focus in one of the things that we know.
So I don't think it's a, it's a good target group to orange build.
So, so, so, so difficult.
So difficult.
No.
Interesting. Yeah, that makes sense. It's the same thing with anyone who's in a really high level position, it seems like, especially in the financial world, which is the classic thing is, oh, I know everything about money.

(43:44):
I know. It's like I know. And then to be able to go back to the origin of what you learned and that everything that you learned wasn't 100% true, there were some cracks.
it's accepting that you've been wrong you know and this hurts so this humbleness normally occurs
that there needs to be a trigger to me it was the pandemic to to other people might be

(44:09):
some personal issue losing their job something you need to suffer to to to come to terms with
yourself and and to start understanding we're just temporarily in this universe and we come we go
it's fine just come to terms with you it's kind of funny that you mentioned that that you have to

(44:31):
suffer to really figure bitcoin out because i would agree with you for the majority of people
but i was an outlier personally that that didn't really happen and just like you for me 2020 was
the time where i really went down to bitcoin only rabbit hole i was into crypto for a few years
before that but i feel like 2020 was a time so many people figured out a lot of things but it was

(44:55):
in different ways there were the the smart people who had enough of their brain cells working that
they saw what was going on and were like this is crazy this is total tyrannical madness and we need
to stop this and then there's the the lucky idiots like me who just found a bunch of youtube videos
and had some extra free time.

(45:15):
So I was just chilling.
I ended up finding the Mike Maloney's
Hidden Secrets of Money series on YouTube.
Have you seen that?
I was there.
Episode one, two, three, four, five.
Then one of the last ones,
he's like with these other crypto
and then he got locked in there and he stopped.
But yes.
The first four.
People just need the first four.
He tries Bitcoin later on,

(45:36):
kind of whiffs on it.
But the first four episodes of that
really drilled into my brain.
Okay, fiat currency is a problem.
And I knew enough about Bitcoin to realize, okay, this is a real focus.
And I was, as you were traveling at the time too, I was living in this fun little beach
town in New Zealand at the time, just living in an area.
Airbnb, just cranking through content and just learning, learning, learning.

(46:00):
And so for me, that's what I needed.
And some people just need to find the right educational content.
They don't necessarily need to go through pain.
I'm an example of that.
And do you see that as well when you're talking to people that sometimes people just need
a certain piece of content?
And if so, what type of content have you seen is the most resonating with people?

(46:22):
You need a trigger.
You need the hook, something.
and to me that that's suffering and you need to suffer some for some reason why why do you even
even care about money either you have like this interior interest that for whichever reason you
know sometimes we like things and we don't understand why because there is no reason i

(46:42):
just like this all right so either you have that or you need to have a reason and maybe the reason
your pain maybe you're suffering is that you have so many hours in a day that you don't know how to
feeling and you start browsing YouTube.
And then for some reason, those videos are the ones that you like.
So there is this trigger.
And for the people answering to your question, so I don't think this is how

(47:07):
normies are on boarded.
Like this is just, this is once you already understand it and then you
wanna, you wanna learn more and maybe you don't, you don't know what books to
read and then maybe, or what documentaries to watch or what movies to watch.
So then is when the obvious thing, you know, it's content and content might be like short TikToks, longer reels on Instagram, or maybe YouTube videos.

(47:31):
So again, to me, it's so simple.
I need to go to the source of the pain.
I need to understand who is the target group I'm talking to.
And based on that, I can build a narrative around their personal story.
Because nobody cares about your story.
Nobody.
Maybe your parents.
Yeah.
nobody cares so but but they care about their story so it's our job to understand their story

(47:58):
understand their pain points and then build a narrative around their story so they can have
a better life because as i said we're here temporarily we're gonna die we're all gonna die
so nobody cares about your life they care about their life so we better make their lives better
And this is after a couple of years trying to orange people, this is what I realized or what I discovered that works better with these groups of normies, flag theories, passport bros, geo-arbitragers, digital nomads, frequent travelers, free cities, lookers, free cities, advocates, nation, network states,

(48:44):
all these type of people they care about.
They have their own problems.
I don't want to pay taxes.
Or my government is making me pay more taxes
than the resources I'm getting.
Okay, then go to this other country.
Maybe they treat you better.
Maybe you want to start avoiding
to pay things that you don't think

(49:04):
are giving you back what you are expecting.
So you have to understand what are their problems.
I want to raise my kids at home.
in my country they don't allow me right so do you go from there and you say do you know that
there are other countries that allow you that and they are freedom seekers and then there is like
this circular economy and if based on that so you need to tackle the the i mean this is what i've

(49:30):
seen so far yeah and that's a i think that's a great tee up for me to bring up one of the times
that i successfully did this as you were talking about earlier figure out what people's real problem
are also in the digital nomad world.
This is, these tie in really well.
I'm not sure if you've heard me tell the story a couple of times, but when I was in Mexico,

(49:53):
in Chiapas, Mexico last year, yeah, late last year, I was in a long-term hostel with a bunch
of people, probably a dozen or so, 12, 15 people who we all got to know each other quite
well.
And we all got to know each other's problems quite well.
So I got to hear what people's problems were.
I really got to figure that out.
And one of the things that we all did was we'd go on a lot of these different tours and go out for dinner and things where we're all paying money together.

(50:20):
And we decided it was just much easier if one person would be paying at each place and just covered everybody.
And we just took turns doing that.
Now, the thing was, myself and a couple other people had problems with our debit cards.
We couldn't get any of the local currency.
It was having problems at the ATM.
We couldn't figure it out.
So we could either do Western Union or something else where they just scrape you dry with crazy fees.

(50:44):
And I just told them, hey, guys, I know this way that we can just get a little circular economy going.
Here's this thing called Nostra.
I think I did use the word Nostra.
I wasn't as smart as you yet.
I'm just like not giving them the weird technical words.
But I basically explained to them, hey, we can just use Bitcoin to trade with each other.
We don't need to use this local currency at all.

(51:06):
There's no reason to.
And so I got them all spun up with a couple of Nostra clients and we just use that to trade. And since I had plenty of stats in there from just my few years of posting before that I had the advantage of I could just I had plenty of money to throw people so I just had them cover me and I would send them Bitcoin everyone wins because they got to earn more Bitcoin.

(51:26):
And this whole time, of course, I'm telling them about Bitcoin as well.
This is why this is important.
And it's a good thing to have a savings account in Bitcoin.
And so that is a great one I recommend to all fellow travelers and nomads out there.
It's a huge pain in the ass to deal with these currency changes everywhere where you're traveling.
So just make friends.
Get them on a Noster.

(51:47):
Teach them about Bitcoin by listening to their pain points, as we've talked about here.
And you can just start paying people in Bitcoin directly like that.
And it's a bonus that a lot of travelers love posting pictures of their travels on social media.
So why would you not post your pictures on Nostra and share your story?
Because a lot of people love to hear that.
And a bunch of people, as I mentioned earlier, I help them write a really good introductions post.

(52:12):
And they get great results right out of the gate because people love hearing these stories of these wandering folks who are seeing the world and sharing their experiences.
So many things coming together here.
and it's logic yeah it all makes sense and sense i think this is also a great time to talk about
satlantis of course this is the nostril client that's all about travel and i want to hear your

(52:38):
pitch so when you're talking specifically about satlantis to people like myself and the people i
just mentioned who are travelers like to move around and go to different places and get in
integrated with the cultures in these places how does satlantis do this give me the pitch
Right. Look, Atlantis, it's simple. Atlantis is a social network for frequent travelers.

(53:02):
Seems easy, no, to explain? Social network for frequent travelers. But what is a social network?
Because we think that we know what a social network is, and we actually don't.
The tools that we use today, Instagram, WhatsApp, TikTok, Facebook, LinkedIn, we call them social networks, but they are not.

(53:28):
They are social media platforms.
They are big corporations that know a lot of us.
And then based on that, they can throw a lot of content that they think that will engage or will resonate with our interests.
and will keep scrolling immediately and be hooked like in this spiral of content.

(53:53):
This is not a social network.
Maybe they started as social networks.
You know, the antithesis of the social networks is TikTok.
You don't even have to have friends on TikTok, but it learns
and it gives you the content that you really need.
So in Atlantis, we've built a real social network.
So in Atlantis, you need to have friends.

(54:16):
And those friends, they can be people that you know, people that you follow,
or people that you don't know but are following the same interests as you.
And what are the interests that you can see in Atlantis?
Well, if Atlantis is a social network for frequent travelers,
the interest, the main interest is the destinations that you are going to.

(54:38):
So maybe your interest is, I don't know, for me, I'm going to Prague in a couple of days.
So that interests me.
So when I download Atlantis, I will start seeing and I pick, follow the city of Prague.
I will start seeing things that happen on Prague.

(54:59):
But what happens on Prague?
Not companies.
It's accounts.
And I'm using the word account very broadly here so that people understand.
So anybody can create an account, a person, a company, an organization, anywhere, anything.
So South Atlantic is a social network to meet like-minded people wherever you're going.

(55:20):
And this is, it's simple, but we didn't invent anything here.
So Facebook groups exist.
It existed forever.
And there are groups that say Spanish citizens in Prague, for example, if I'm going to Prague,
maybe I want to meet other Spanish people or activities in Prague, if I want to do, or

(55:42):
sports in Prague, if I want to practice sports.
So we didn't invent anything here.
Or maybe there are WhatsApp groups the local group for your favorite restaurants in Prague that already exists We didn invent anything The problem is that the tools that we have today they are fragmented and you have Google

(56:03):
maps, then you have meetups, then you have Facebook groups, maybe WhatsApp groups, Telegram
groups, and everything that happens in every of these tools, they are closed.
They are silos.
So you cannot relate everything that's going on.
So when I'm going to discover my next favorite gym in Prague,

(56:27):
what shall I do?
Enter Instagram or no, enter Google Maps, gyms,
zoom in in Prague.
Then when I see a couple of gyms, I can see the comments,
but I don't know who wrote those comments.
Are they real people? Are they bots?
Are they people like-minded to me?
Because maybe the people said, oh, this gym is perfect,
perfect because it has a swimming pool, but maybe I don't care about the swimming pool.

(56:50):
So why shall I care about his comment?
So then after that, I have to go to the profile of the gym in the Google Maps and find, if
I'm lucky, cross my fingers, if they have an Instagram account.
So then I can go to the Instagram account and see what pictures they have and what comments
people are saying.
But it's not, I don't know if it's the same people from Google Maps that are giving the

(57:12):
same comments.
Maybe they have the same account number, account name, maybe they have the same picture, maybe
it's an impersonator, I don't know.
So I have to start doing again all this research on Instagram.
Maybe on this Instagram account there is a link to the link tree.
And then on the link tree, there is a list of events that this gym is doing.

(57:33):
So next week's events.
That links me to a website on meetup.com.
All right, so I have to start again.
What are the events going on there?
Who posted them?
What reputation they have?
The reputation is, again, inside of the silo of meetup.com.
And I'm not saying that any of these apps is not good.

(57:54):
No, they all serve their purpose, but they are generalistic apps.
So when you're a traveler, you end up with 10 or 20 tabs on your
on your computer or 10 or 20 apps on your phone
just to make a decision on where to go next.
And I'm always just using this example of finding my next year.

(58:14):
And then what we've done is we mixed all these tools together
so every person can share their reputation on all the tools at the same time.
So then if you and I share the same interests,
I will see your comments first.
I will see your recommendations first.

(58:36):
and I will see if you discover this gym,
I will be able to see that you've been there before.
If we never met then, but we shared some interests,
then your name will be around my app experience.
So then because this is a social network

(58:56):
and the goal of the social network
is to connect with like-minded people,
I will end up following you.
So if you're a content creator,
if you're a, let's say, a tour guide,
you're discovering places, you're a YouTuber, you're a podcaster, then it is a way for you
to discover people that has the same interest in that same city.

(59:16):
If you're a Bitcoiner, if you like, we have a map, for example.
If you like to eat healthy, there is a filter that says, for example, sea toil free.
So if you and I are interested in that, I might end up getting to even know you in person
in that restaurant because you say that you go there often.

(59:37):
But maybe you don't say that, but because it's a social network
and I start following you, I engage with you because we can post it.
It's like an Instagram, right?
It's like you post pictures, you can get comments, you can get likes.
So maybe we end up getting to know each other.
The goal is to be able to make these connections before you arrive to a place
and to bring these connections in real life once you are in the place.

(01:00:03):
It's not compulsory. You're not obliged to meet people in real life.
But maybe you want, because most of the frequent travelers, when they travel, they either travel alone, or as I said before, they travel with the family, and they want to gather with like-minded people.
So they want to know where is their crowd, what schools to send their kids, what restaurants to hang out, what co-workings to go to work, what local attractions to go, and what activities to do.

(01:00:38):
So that's why we have events and events like a copy of Meetup.
It's like we cloned everything.
We cloned Google Maps.
We cloned Instagram.
We cloned Meetup, Luma, TripAdvisor.
and we are pulling in all this information from there,
but allowing the users to transfer their identity

(01:00:58):
from one mini app to the other mini app.
And they don't realize, but it's a home.
And that's why we call it a super app.
Yeah, there's so many things to dig into there.
It's so exciting when you think about it
because we've all used these services before,
Google Maps or the Meetup or Yelp or just ways to figure out, okay, I'm in this place I'm not

(01:01:25):
super familiar with, or it could be your own hometown and you're just wanting to go to a new
restaurant or find a new gym or something. And it sends you on this path of needing to
trust other people. You don't even know if the Yelp reviews could be undercover people at that
business, just trying to pump the numbers. And so this injects this new trust element where you have

(01:01:46):
Your social graph that you built, which, again, could have been on any other Nostra client.
This is the beauty of Nostra is it sticks with you everywhere.
So you have these connections that you built on Nostra and you trust.
And then you will see those people automatically pop up on these places that you're going to.

(01:02:07):
And it's especially awesome right now because everyone on Nostra this early is going to be super dialed in,
crazy carnivore bitcoiners who are going to really know those seed oil free restaurants
so this will change in the future where there's more and more people joining but still you choose
who you follow on there and who your web of trust will be and what information you see on these

(01:02:29):
places so as it scales it's super exciting if you see the way i explain what's atlantis is i try to
use the familiar keywords that normies are used to, and I try to avoid those taboo words.
So I never used Bitcoin.
I never used Noster.
So this is, we are using a technology.

(01:02:52):
It's like how email works.
Who cares?
They can send you an email from ProtonMail to Gmail, and you can resend it to Outlook.
Who cares?
It works.
So yeah, for the more hardcore audience, yes, we're using Noster, Underline, and we use
all these.
we have this Bitcoin.
It's this bubble at the moment,
but this is just temporarily.

(01:03:12):
And that's why we're tackling
to all these other types of communities.
So if you're a Bitcoiner,
you'll see Bitcoin things.
If you are a Nomad,
you'll see Nomad things.
It's just the web of trust,
the social graph,
those technicalities that Noster boosts.
And that's the real value of this app.
People, Normies,
they will never understand how this works

(01:03:33):
and they will say,
wow, it works.
It works so seamlessly well.
And then the curious will start looking, oh, okay, there is a protocol,
okay, web of trust, social network, Nostar.
It doesn't matter.
It just works.

(01:03:55):
Yeah, absolutely.
And another point I want to bring up here, which I'll maybe push back on you a little bit,
where you say this is primarily for frequent travelers.
I'm thinking this is also great for people who are total homebodies and just want to lock down in one location because what they can do is they can either establish if it doesn't exist yet or join the ambassador team for a specific city, which I did myself for Seattle.

(01:04:22):
I created the Seattle page and I need to go back and check on it.
It's been a little while since I looked at the updates there.
But essentially you can, you can,
you can establish your city on this protocol and you can put in a bunch of
information about it.
You can just start things off with recommended gyms and restaurants and places
to go have fun.

(01:04:43):
And since you're someone that knows your city very well,
you can help provide value to other people who want to travel there.
And then you can earn sats and zaps for the content you're creating and the recommendations you're making.
And so it doesn't matter if you're the one that's traveling to a place or if you're the person that lives in that place and knows it very well.

(01:05:04):
Value transaction is seamless for both sides, which is amazing.
So when we approach to the frequent travelers, to the nomads, it's because, you know, like the Pareto law, right?
like 20% of the network will be producers and 80% will be consumers.
So travelers are normally the consumers, it's this 80%. But of course, we need the 20

(01:05:27):
ambassadors that are, 20% of ambassadors that are the ones creating the content. And if not ambassadors,
just people that live locally there. And this is the beginning on how we get these people to use it.
And there is one thing that I normally say when I go to nomadic conferences is that nomads are nomads temporarily until they settle down And they are nomads because we humans used to be nomads

(01:05:55):
And we settled down when we either found a nice place to settle
or if we didn't find it, we created our own.
So that's why the civilizations and cities, the networks, the states.
So these nomads or frequent travelers one day will retire of being nomads.

(01:06:18):
And they will become, if they decide to retire in their hometown, they will be locals.
If they retire temporarily in a place that is on their hometown, they might become expats.
And if they decide to merge, to connect with the locals, they can end up becoming locals.
So everything is temporary and we are trying to help these people that is going from one stage in their life to another to offer them all the information they need.

(01:06:48):
And then in Sanlantis, there is another thing I didn't explain.
We are a database as well.
Database of information about the city.
Can I drink the water from the tap?
Well, you better know that in advance.
If not, you're going to have to visit your bathroom a couple of times until you discover that, ah, that's the reason why you're visiting the bathroom.
or what type of electric plug do I have to have?

(01:07:11):
Do I need to have like an adapter?
Do I have to need to have a converter?
It just happened to me.
I was in Dublin a couple of weeks ago
and I felt so smart like, oh, I'm European.
I know about Europe.
And I didn't bring the electric adapter.
Fuck.
So I had to buy a new one there.
This information is in Atlantis.
I'm not even, I felt, you know,
it's like this ego thing that I'm telling you.

(01:07:32):
Sometimes we need to understand that we need these tools.
They make our lives easier.
And this information is freely available
on YouTube, on ChatGPT, on databases, on Google.
What we're doing is we're trying to put it all together.
And when you're trying to discover your next destination,
if somebody has done all this effort to put it in a centralized way
so you don't have to think, what currency?
Do I have to use another currency there?

(01:07:54):
Or what type of internet connection is there?
Like all this information, we put it all together for you.
So it's not only, it's like a database that through that database
you can discover new people, which is the social network.
And then, as you say, Ben, it's like you just grasp the idea very easily.
It's a database.

(01:08:15):
From the database, you can create connections.
And one way of connecting to people, we have language,
and another communication tool is money.
So it's commerce.
So we have this map.
You can post content.
You can post things.
Maybe you have a practice, dental practice.
You want to share it there with, and you can share the pictures of your clients that with

(01:08:38):
a better smile, the before and the after smile.
Do it.
We just want people to connect with different reasons.
Maybe you want to connect because you're a dancer and you want to learn to dance.
Okay.
Go to your dancing classes.
Or maybe you're a tax advisor and you want, I don't know, financial advisor or whatever.
So it's a social network.

(01:08:58):
So we have these three steps.
that's a database, social network to meet people, and commerce to promote all these people,
merge or talk to each other. And that's why I believe by doing that, it's like we are trying to
kickstart or we want to help kickstart circular economies in these places. Because normally in

(01:09:21):
these places, the foreigner comes with money, the white man comes with money to this poor place,
and then they think, oh, I'm the king here.
And then the locals hate them, but they're taking their money,
but they hate them.
But, you know, it's like we're trying to bridge the gap
between locals, tourists, frequent travelers,
so they all feel part of the same community,

(01:09:45):
which is difficult.
It's a big endeavor.
I don't know if we will be able to make it.
I come from Barcelona.
In Barcelona, you go to the States and you see graffiti saying,
tourists go home, nomads go home.
And it's because we do not understand the value that foreigners can bring.
And because they don't speak the local language, because they think that money is a language,

(01:10:08):
they think that money will be a language enough to understand each other.
And then there are like these frictions between what type of resident and the other.
So what we're trying to do is to create this tool so locals can promote their businesses and get engaged with the travelers.

(01:10:30):
Who knows?
Maybe they fall in love with the city and decide to buy land and create some businesses there.
Or, I don't know, just stay there and then help to grow the economy.
and there's infinite potential for new features and information that can be built into these

(01:10:52):
city profiles on satlantis and you're talking about how there's lots of questions people have
going to a place your example was what kind of plug do they need one example for me personally
is i'm coming to prog as well soon is just researching figuring out what paperwork do i
need as american do i need some stupid proof that i have some money do i need proof of this

(01:11:12):
proof of that whatever because like all this red tape that is now part of the flying process as we
talked about getting more and more complicated and so that's one of the things that i have to go out
of my way and just do my own research and read reddit posts from strangers on the internet who
have gone through his experience and i see oh this was posted three years ago has it changed since
then i have to go research some more and a lot of the times you still go to the airport things are

(01:11:37):
is completely different than what the what the internet told you so things like this where you
need to get good information from people you trust that's recent we need a better place for that to
be all conglomerated where we can learn these things and be better prepared and just take away
the stress and uncertainty and i'm not saying that satlantis has all the right answers but we have

(01:12:02):
a centralized place to gather all these answers.
So at the beginning, we paid all these databases.
We found data sources.
We connected with people like you to become our ambassadors.
And we are crowdsourcing all these efforts to have as spot on information as we can.

(01:12:22):
And in the future, we want to open it to anybody.
So if you go to, now you're going to Brad as well.
If you find out that the paperwork is difficult, I want you to be able to change it.
legal, paperwork, difficult. So then, maybe to me it doesn't matter because I'm already European and to me,
paperwork for me will be easier. But if you, if other people has the same similarities, then they will see

(01:12:45):
your paperwork is difficult message before than mine, because you are like-minded. And this is the power of
the web of trust and the social graph that Noster provides you. So I just want to encourage everyone
to create an account on Satlantis
and not stay on Satlantis if you don't want to,
but use it.

(01:13:06):
Use it on Primal, use it on Damus,
use it on Fountain,
use it on all the ecosystem of Nostar apps
so then you start building your profile.
And if you care about your privacy,
doesn't matter, don't give me your name,
just create a pseudonym,
but teach the algorithm
or teach the social graph
to understand who you are
so then you will have a more personalized experience.

(01:13:29):
And again, if you care about your privacy, never say your real name.
It doesn't matter.
I don't need to know it.
Nobody needs to know it.
Absolutely agree.
So we mentioned Prague here.
I know that Prague is going to be a big moment for Atlantis.
There's a lot of stuff rolling out that is going to be tested out in real time.
I believe Alex told me this is going to be, is it like the official app of the conference

(01:13:54):
that people are going to be used for the meetups and everything?
So tell me about the plans for Prague and how this is going to be a big launching point for
SatLantis and what comes next.
Well, we've been building SatLantis for one year now.
And building an app on Nostra, it's exhausting.
And he can tell you more, but it's exhausting.
Everything costs 10 times more.

(01:14:16):
Cost, and I'm not only talking money, I'm talking energy.
I'm talking about headaches.
So what we're trying to do is we partnered with BTC Prague to be the site events, official partner.
So every site event that you see in Prague will be hosted on Satlantis.
Meaning if you want to go to any site event, and I recommend you guys to go to the one on Sunday, because it's the one that Satlantis is sponsoring.

(01:14:41):
It will have like this site event during the morning will be last day and we will have like good steak and good food.
good food. I invite you guys to use it, to reserve your spot there, because with the
excuse of an event, with the excuse of any side event of BTC Prague, we are onboarding

(01:15:02):
you on Nostrad, and that's our goal. And because Nostrad doesn't matter, today you can sign
in on Satlantis, but then tomorrow you can jump to another app. That's the value. So
So what we're trying to do is with the excuse of those events to onboard most people on
Nostar and see the value, the benefits of being on this network.
And if you like it, then you stay there.

(01:15:22):
So you come for the tool because if you want to enter to this event, you have to register.
You have to show me registration on your phone at the door.
But then maybe you end up like browsing around.
What's going on in Prague?
Oh, I joined for this event, but oh, look, Ben is also going.
What is Ben posting about Prague you post a sunrise I don know some landmark Oh I like Ben pictures I will follow him And maybe you post your next podcast on Fountain

(01:15:51):
I will see it.
I will see it there on South Atlantic as well, because it's Nostor.
It's the same.
So maybe with that excuse, people will start onboarding to Nostor.
I know other apps, they do different things.
Like maybe they give you some initial cash on Bitcoin.
So then you can start playing around.
We are not a wallet.
we are a tool for travelers.

(01:16:13):
So we want to help you discover your next activity to do wherever you go.
And we are very excited.
And there will be some announcements in Prague.
I don't know if I can say this.
Maybe when this episode is released, this already happened.
Because we are building a tool with the help of our users,

(01:16:38):
I think that it's enough that we asked enough from our users to help us give all the feedback
for free. So we are opening a crowdfunding campaign. So users will be able to not only
participate just because now every person that has an idea how to improve the app,

(01:16:58):
they're contacting Alex, me or anybody on the team. They're working for us for free.
So what we thought is like, we will open a crowdfunding campaign. So these users that
are helping us can also be co-owners of the company.
This is something that will be announced in one or two weeks.
Maybe if this episode is released later, I don't know, just have a look.

(01:17:20):
I can hold off until it's out, yeah.
Thank you.
No, the thing is that I don't know for how long the crowdfunding campaign will be open.
So maybe you're listening to this and you cannot participate in the crowdfunding campaign
anymore.
but this is something big that we are you know we want to give back and to build something
together with our users and this will be for non-accredited investors big disclaimer this

(01:17:44):
is investing in startups if you don't know what it means don't even look into it it's the same as
going to bitcoin if you don't know what it is just investment in startups is very risky
very cool i'm excited for all this man it just seems like things are humming so fast for you
guys i can't wait to see all the stuff that you've been working on behind the scenes because

(01:18:04):
it's the need is clearly there for everyone i mean really everyone can benefit from this
because like i said earlier everyone uses google maps everyone is figuring out what restaurant they
want to go to and it's this is a great way to integrate that nostr flair to it the trust and

(01:18:25):
the freedom and the instant value for value transaction. I'm already thinking because I,
as I mentioned earlier, I made a page for Seattle, but I want, I might want to make a page for my
little hometown of Coopville here on Woodby Island, which is a couple hours north of Seattle.
Just it's a small town. I want more Bitcoiners to come there and enjoy it like I have all these
years. So definitely encourage people listening to go make it, make a city profile for where you

(01:18:49):
live. That's a great place to start, no matter how big or small it is. And that will put you on
a map quite literally and put you on a nostril map where we're so early that if you're from a
small town it probably won't be on there so you can you can be a trailblazer for your homeland
which is awesome and and you can meet other like-minded people so because maybe there are
others like you and you think that you are alone because this is what normally happens to us

(01:19:13):
bitcoiners freedom seekers and and frequent travelers and as you were saying ben it doesn't
even matter you don't even have to be a traveler if you can just go use use the map to find to
discover places or the most important, you know, it's to discover people through the events.
Because when you go to an event, you can see who's the host. You can see what he posted. If

(01:19:33):
there are co-hosts, you can see it. You can see where this event takes place. So you can see the
venue. Maybe it's a local restaurant or a co-working. You can see the attendees. So maybe you can start
following people. If you are not sure on, shall I go to this event? Would it be for me? You can be
on the shadows, you know,
discovering if this is for you.
And then if you feel like

(01:19:54):
you can even connect with people
and message the host,
Ben, is this for me?
Is this meta?
I don't know.
So we're trying to help people
to get people with the same mindset
to connect to each other.
And this is not what
traditional social media platforms are doing.

(01:20:14):
That's why I was so clear at the beginning
that we have social network network no social media platform so exciting i i love talking about
it anytime i'm talking about nostr in general i get excited but this specifically because this
really fits with my own life and a lot of people that i know so i know that people listening

(01:20:34):
are going to get a lot out of it so last question for you sir i want to hear your cosmic super
bullish case for the future here. What do you envision this turning into long term? Because
it's pulling so many things together, obviously. It's a lot of, and I talked with Alex about this
on our episode together. It's hard to really explain to people what this is simply because

(01:20:58):
it's kind of like meetup. It's kind of like Facebook groups. It's got Yelp. It's got all
these things together, but something huge is there. So what do you envision for the long-term
future for this, given that adoption increases on Nostra, which I think we all predict will
happen eventually.
So to me, there is one word that defines this.

(01:21:18):
And for the folks that have lived in Asia, maybe it resonates with them.
Atlantis will become a super app.
It's a tool where you can do anything.
The problem with Asian super apps like WeChat and China or others in Korea, they have like cacao in Korea, is that they are centralized.

(01:21:47):
So once you are big enough, you know the incentives of opening back doors.
And even if you have a good heart, somebody will force you to open a backdoor and all this data will be leaked and all the money will be traced and blah, blah, blah, blah.
So I think that we have the chance because many app builders have tried to build super apps and nobody has succeeded.

(01:22:12):
Uber is trying.
Uber started like ride sharing app and because they have so much money from investors, they started playing around with different experiments.
You know, it's not only transporting people now, but driving self-driving cars or food.
And so we think that, I think that Atlantis has the power of becoming this super app.

(01:22:34):
And then you can do anything.
And if you don't like it, you jump to another app because you can bring your, you can pack
your bags and bring your identity from one app to another.
And I think that's, and I don't have a crystal ball, but I believe that other apps didn't succeed on becoming super apps because of some reason.
And I believe, I want to believe that it was because nobody wants to be that big, that powerful in the Western world.

(01:23:02):
In Asia, it happened because they have a different mindset.
So I believe that this portability of your identity can help us to build a real super app.
That's very interesting that you mention that because that makes total sense to me.
If I were an app developer, entrepreneur who had a huge dream for a giant app that would have all these things in the U.S., I would be thinking long term, like, oh, man, the government's so big, it's going to try to capture this thing at some point.

(01:23:33):
It's going to be a honeypot.
and so this is thinking with that in mind it comes with all these this freedom ethos
into it since it's on nostre which really protects you for the future and that's super exciting
because this is also going to inspire lots of other people who may have ideas for apps that

(01:23:53):
they want to build on nostre as well and you mentioned uber there and i know that i don't
even remember what's called but i know that there's an uber like nostre client already made
that someone talked about on a Twitter space recently.
I don't remember what it's called,
but all these apps that people know and love
are going to have Nostra versions eventually.
And don't feel bad if you're just making a straight clone of it

(01:24:14):
because you're providing great value.
Something that's already proven to be valuable
and have a use case is now just on the Freedom Protocol
and can bring in people's entire social graph
and the instant peer-to-peer transactions of Bitcoin.
So just so many exciting possibilities
head for sat lantus nostril and beyond i can't wait i know you can't wait and i hope listeners

(01:24:35):
are very excited to hear about all this getting some more nostril hype in here it's been a few
episodes as we did that so excellent jordy it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you sir i
cannot wait to meet you over in europe as we all converge into prog to to play with all this stuff
meet some more cool traveling bitcoiners and ostriches and uh just nothing but excitement

(01:24:56):
for the future sir so where can people go follow you and plug in further to this project
So, yeah, thank you very much again for inviting me. I'll see you very, very soon. If somebody wants to reach out, just follow me here, satlantis.io slash Jordi or search for Jordi Young on Twitter or on LinkedIn. I'm around on Bitcoin conferences. Come say hi in person. Drop me a DM and happy to connect in person.

(01:25:24):
amazing can't wait for it sir it's going to be a great time lots of exciting times ahead and
we'll be in touch my friend looking forward to doing another episode in the future when more
things are coming out there's more to talk about because we'll always have things to talk about so
i can't wait definitely let's do it

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#130 Jordi Llonch Esteve - Revolutionizing Travel with Bitcoin and Nostr

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#130 Jordi Llonch Esteve - Revolutionizing Travel with Bitcoin and Nostr