Earned Media: Why Relationships Aren't Strategy with Ronica Cleary

Most people buy PR the wrong way: they ask “who do you know?” and hope connections turn into coverage. We sit down with Ronica Cleary, founder of Cleary Strategies and a former TV journalist who covered the White House, to talk about what actually drives earned media for a small business: preparation, systems, and a repeatable pitching strategy that does not depend on favors.

We get concrete about what “strategy” looks like in public relations. Ronica walks us through her discovery process and why she will not pitch a new client until they have four to six clear content pillars with talking points and journalist-ready questions. That foundation makes it easier to respond fast to the news cycle, land better-fit podcast guest bookings and media interviews, and reduce the chaos that gives PR a bad reputation. We also talk pricing reality for small businesses and nonprofits, how to spot red flags like guaranteed results, and what transparency and case studies should look like before you sign a contract.

Then we go where everyone is curious: AI in PR. Ronica shares why AI-generated thought leadership can destroy credibility with journalists, even while AI can still be useful for planning, research, and editorial calendars. We close with the hard truth about PR measurement, why clicks do not tell the whole story, and how earned media compounds into trust, authority, and unexpected opportunities, plus how to make deliberate decisions about political or social stances before pressure hits.

If you found this useful, subscribe, share it with a founder who is chasing PR the hard way, and leave us a review with your biggest question about earned media and brand credibility.

Subscribe and tune in for new episodes of Big Talk About Small Business with Mark Zweig and Eric Howerton. Each week we focus on practical insights and real-world strategies to grow your business!

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (00:05):
So no, we're here with Ronica Cleary.
She's got a very interestingbackground.
Um, this is another episode ofBig Talk about Small Business
Business.
And uh Ronica, where are youtalking to us from today?

SPEAKER_04 (00:19):
Outside of Philadelphia.

SPEAKER_01 (00:22):
Okay.
Great.
Um, so tell us a little bitabout yourself.
I you've had such a variedcareer.
I know you're now I I don't knowwhat I want to call you.
I don't want to just call you aPR consultant.
I don't think that's sufficient.
But you've done a lot ofdifferent things.
Tell us a little bit aboutyourself and how you got into
this business.

SPEAKER_04 (00:42):
Well, thank you for that, Mark.
And it's nice to meet you both.
So I do, I am a founder, but Icall myself a publicist as well.
Uh because I still run strategyon all of our accounts, and I'm
still very involved and engaged.
So publicist would be totallyaccurate.
I've been doing that for nearlyeight years.
And before that, I was atelevision journalist.

(01:03):
I worked most recently as aWhite House correspondent, and I
covered the first Trumpadministration.
I make sure to pause therebecause sometimes people mishear
that I worked for them.
I covered them.
So I was in the White Housepress corps, and um, I did that,
and I covered politics for themost of the time that I worked

(01:24):
in journalism.
So that career is what sort ofset up the foundation for what I
do today in public relations.
But before that, I did a lot ofother random things.
It took me a while to figure outlike where I wanted to settle
into and media in all of itsforms, working as a journalist,
now working as a publicist wherewe put clients in the media.

(01:45):
It really feels like home.

SPEAKER_02 (01:47):
So you're not you're not nervous right now about
being on our show.
No.
I mean, I mean maybe maybe youshould be.

SPEAKER_03 (01:55):
When you start saying hello, you kind of
wonder, but I can handle it.

SPEAKER_02 (02:01):
I mean, we are the biggest business talk show on
planet Earth.

SPEAKER_01 (02:05):
Absolutely.
It's all it's all happeningright here.
You should pour you shoulddirect all of your clients to
big talk about small business.

SPEAKER_03 (02:12):
You will be getting many pictures after that.

SPEAKER_01 (02:15):
Fantastic.
So, Ronica, now you went toPenn, I saw.
Did you grow up there in thearea or did you?

SPEAKER_04 (02:22):
Yeah, so I grew up in South Jersey.

SPEAKER_01 (02:25):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (02:26):
Yeah.
And the southern part of NewJersey identifies with
Philadelphia, where the northernpart identifies with the city.
So yes, I grew up in the area.
I went to Penn undergrad.
I went to Drexel for graduateschool, which is a like across
the street from Penn.
Uh, but when I went to Penn, Istudied systems engineering.
And so I say I still use mysystems engineering degree every

(02:46):
day to run my PR agency.
I run my company and the teamlike a very efficient and
organized assembly line andsystem, because I know you also
have people that's listeningthat care about running
businesses, right?
So it's not just about PR.
And for me, that reallytransformed my life as a
business owner.
People talk about agency lifebeing so stressful and chaotic.

(03:09):
And we just we do not embracethat.
The stereotype of being a publicsystem being like chaos and
stress is not the way we run ouraccounts.
And so I do think systemsthinking is a really important
foundation for what I do today,though, you know, I'm not
working as an engineer.

SPEAKER_01 (03:28):
No, I get, I mean, it's uh to me, a lot of it comes
down to probability theory andunderstanding that.
And I think a lot of PR peoplethat I've run into or you know,
publicists, um, tend to be theythey want to sell their
relationships and theirconnections, and that's what
they try to sell you on.

(03:49):
You know, I've hired them manytimes, heard a lot of pitches
over the years.

SPEAKER_04 (03:54):
We actually really downplay relationships as a part
of our PR strategies.
I actually think that's probablythe that is this is how I put
it.
Like a relationships are not along-term PR strategy, right?
Yeah, that I'll stop there.

SPEAKER_01 (04:10):
No, I mean that's why it's refreshing to hear what
you say because you know ittakes you can get um you've got
to use the laws of probabilityin your favor.
I'll just say that.
Um hit enough numbers to makethings happen.

SPEAKER_04 (04:26):
Yeah, it is a numbers game.
And if you're strategic andsmart about it, you will be more
successful.
So it's not just about, youknow, like they call it um spray
and pray, like that's the termfor when you're just pitching
thousands of people.
That doesn't mean that that'swhat we're doing when we say
it's a numbers game, but you dohave to you do have to pitch a

(04:46):
lot of people to get placementsand to win.
And then if you have a strategybehind it and you understand how
media works, you will be verysuccessful and probably bring
your clients more results thanany sort of relationship-only PR
strategy.
It doesn't mean I don't havefriends in the business, it
doesn't mean my team doesn'thave friends, it doesn't mean we
don't ever call them, but thatis not how you maintain an

(05:08):
account year over year.
I would never know enoughpeople.
Like it just it just doesn'twork.
So uh yeah, we always push backon that when people ask, well,
who do you know?
Or like how who are you gonna?
You know, that's strategy.

SPEAKER_02 (05:20):
So if it's not spray and prey, then what is it?
I mean, like, how are you whenyou say strategy, right?
That's kind of a big word uhthat I think that a lot of our
listeners would be like, well,I've heard that.
But I mean, what what would youadvise somebody like to be
strategic about the numbers gamethat you're talking about?

SPEAKER_04 (05:38):
Right.
Well, they could hire ClearyStrategies and let us take care
of it.

SPEAKER_02 (05:42):
I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_03 (05:43):
Um so one of the things that we yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 (05:47):
Um is to take care of all your podcasting needs.

SPEAKER_04 (05:54):
So one of the things that we do that I think is
different.
So we do a period of discoveryand onboarding with our clients
that is extremely thoughtful andlike painstaking, but in a good
way.
So we sit down with our clientsand we build out what we like to
think of visually, think of aslike pillars on a house.
We don't want to begin pitchingany client without four to six
pillars or content themes fullyfleshed out, fully developed

(06:18):
with talking points andpotential questions for
journalists.
What this allows us to do ismore thoughtfully build out
lists of potential journalistsacross television, radio,
digital print, and podcasts forour clients so that when we are
pitching them out, we are moreeffective.
And then it also allows us tomove much more quickly because,
like, there's different outboundpublic relations, and then it's,

(06:41):
I don't know if the right wordwould be inbound, but the idea
of like responding to the newscycle, right?
So when we have those contentthemes already approved, already
fleshed out, already agreedupon, we are much more efficient
at responding to the news cycleon behalf of our clients because
we already know the things thatwe can that they can talk about.
We're not interrupting theirwork days.
Again, this is all aboutreducing that chaos that I said

(07:03):
just doesn't work for us.
And so if we know you can talkabout, like I don't know when
this will air, but with Artemis,right?
I was just talking to apotential client that does work
in in STEM, right?
And she really in the call, shesaid, Oh, wait, you know, I
could have provided commentaryon Artemis.
Well, all of her, if she was ourclient, all of our talking

(07:24):
points related to STEM wouldhave already been fleshed out,
already been defined.
And as soon as the news storyhit, we would have pitched it,
right?
So sure it's it's about thatfoundation that makes everything
run a lot more smoothly.
It doesn't mean like somethingcan't go chaotic or there can't
be a crisis scenario, which weguide our clients through as
well, but it just sets a totallydifferent tone on the account to

(07:48):
allow things to just operatemore efficiently.

SPEAKER_01 (07:51):
It's and it's all in the preparation, we used to say,
my old carpenter.

SPEAKER_02 (07:55):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (07:55):
It's all in the preparation, and this is the
preparation to be able torespond, you know.
Um, so one thing um I always tryto get people to understand
about getting publicity is thatthe media needs you as much as
you think you need them.
I mean, they've got to havestuff that's newsworthy.

(08:17):
And I think a lot of peopleforget that.
Um isn't that the truth, though?
I mean, they they want goodstories, they want original
data, they want um controversialopinions on things.

SPEAKER_04 (08:32):
Right.
And when I started the agency,you know, I didn't really plan
for Cleary Strategies to be a PRagency.
You know, I kind of thought we'dbe doing more in curve internal
communications strategy or evenexternal comms.
But what happened was is peopleknew about my background in TV.
And when I first left TV, Iwould, I was booking myself to
do commentary, and people wereseeing that, and then say in my

(08:53):
network and saying, oh, well,can you do that for me?
Can you do that for me?
And like the clients sort ofdirected the the next steps for
clear strategies.
And the my point is I startedthis, I very much thought it was
about asking for favors fromyour friends, right, in the
business.
And so, and so when I, whichyour point, Mark, when I

(09:14):
realized like we are connectorsand we're not just doing a
service for our clients, we'reactually doing a service for the
media.
And our mission statement, we wesay that we serve both media and
our client roster.
It it just was like a lightswitch and a shift in thinking
that I think made us moresuccessful.
Because I'm not asking anyone todo us a favor.
I'm actually like making theirlives easier.

(09:35):
I'm and I do look back on mycareer in television because,
and I think I really should havebeen a producer because our
pitches are, we are producingsegments for the the person that
we're pitching.
We're saying, like, look atthis.
We have the source, we have thesound, we have the b-roll, we
have the questions, we haveeverything done for you.
If this would make your lifeeasier, let us know.

(09:56):
And so I I couldn't agree withyou more.
And that mental shift reallymade my made me just like feel
better.
You know, it feels like a usedcar salesman thing, you know,
like I just felt great about thework.

SPEAKER_02 (10:05):
You're helping people.
Yeah, well, what you're doing,you're providing value, you're
you're you're providing value onvalue on both ends, right?
Which is, I think, uh the secretsauce to to really doing that
well.
So like if we if we have a smallbusiness, if somebody has a
small business, like I mean, Ithink that probably the
conventional thought is for asmall business owner is there's

(10:28):
no way I can afford a PR firm.
Like, I mean, it's like I'm I'vegot to really work my way up.
That's that's what happens withbig companies.
Is that true to you?

SPEAKER_04 (10:38):
Or can small businesses afford that is
defined with a wide range ofrevenue, right?

SPEAKER_02 (10:45):
So sure.

SPEAKER_04 (10:46):
I mean, it depends.
I think that you if you getlucky and you find yourself a
solopreneur who's out therehustling.
I mean, we used to be prettyaffordable when I started, you
know, you could have hired uslike five or six years ago.
Um, but I actually think it is ait can be affordable.
Work with a lot of smallbusinesses and nonprofits.
I do not think you need tonecessarily pay New York City

(11:08):
retainer rates of$12,000 to$15,000 a month to have a good
PR agency or experience.
I do think, though, when you'rein, let's say, the four to six
thousand dollar a month range,you should be careful and
thoughtful because in publicrelations, there are no
guarantees, right?
Any PR firm that's makingguarantees is lying to you, and

(11:29):
that is your first red flag.
However, when we're not, whenwe're saying there are no
guarantees, then you think,well, how do I know who to hire?
Because even if that's in yourbudget, that's still like a big
line item for the year, right?
It's still you'd be thoughtfulabout it.
You know, it's not an employee,so that helps.
But uh I think small businesses100% can afford quality public

(11:50):
relations.
And if you get out of out of theNew York City metro area with PR
firms that have a storefront topay for, you can find good
quality firms at a lower rate.
You just want to do yourhomework, ask questions, look
for case studies, maybe ask forpast client you know, contacts
to chat with them because youyou want to be careful that
you're not getting takenadvantage of.

SPEAKER_02 (12:11):
So what would they what would somebody be looking
for?
I mean, like what what I guessif there's no guarantee that a
business is paying six thousanddollars a month, um how do I
know that that PR firm, likeonce the engagement starts,
let's say I signed up, how howwhat are some flags or what uh

(12:32):
uh both green and red flags thatthis firm is gonna be doing a
good job or not being to do agood job that day 30 zero
through 60, right?
Because you know, I meansomething's gotta kick off,
right?

SPEAKER_04 (12:45):
Right.
Well, I think it's I do believein asking for the case studies
and talking to former clients orcurrent clients.
I I think that's the best way toget information.
Also, look, I can only speak torunning my agency, and since I
don't come from agency life, Ican't compare to that.
But for example, like ourYouTube channel, every single
podcast or TV appearance we haveever booked is on our YouTube

(13:06):
channel.
So like you literally see thatbeing updated almost every day.
Every client has a playlist.
We try to be extremelytransparent about our
placements, like nothing isbehind uh like a wall to say,
oh, well, that's our clients.
It's you know, I obviously wewould never betray a client if
they asked us not to, but forthe most part, we put that in
our contracts because it's veryimportant.

(13:27):
So I think it's about beingforward about what you've done,
right?
Do you have clients that aresimilar?
Have you worked with clientsthat are similar?
What's it, what's our expected,you know, outcome?
Can we get out of the contractlike every 90 days or so?
You know, is there a way to exitearly if we sign a one-year
engagement?
Is there a way to leave?
Like, I think those are allreasonable things to ask for.

(13:49):
Um, and then trust, right?
You have to like, know, andtrust the person because PR is
such a like, I I have personalrelationships with my clients,
and I you I think you you shouldtake your time to hire your PR
firm and ask a lot of questionsand look for examples of success

(14:09):
before you make the decision.
I have noticed people who hireus really quickly tend to
abandon ship really quickly.
That for us as an agency, that'salmost a red flag.
Um, where it can be like, youknow, a little frustrating when
people take a long time.
But then I know they're beingextremely thoughtful, they're
asking the questions they needto, and we're building a
partnership versus just like,let's try this flavor of the

(14:31):
month to grow our businessovernight.
Oh, it didn't work in twomonths.
Like we're, you know, I I justfind that to be a concern on my
end.
It doesn't exactly answer yourquestion, but I think it does
speak to the conversations thatneed to be had before you engage
in this partnership because itit is a bit it is a big
investment, but I do think youcan confidently go into an
engagement and and have a lot ofinformation to feel like you

(14:55):
know what you're what you'rediving into.

SPEAKER_01 (14:58):
I I come out of the architecture and engineering
world and been on a lot ofboards of companies and some of
the larger ones, and and um I'llnever forget this case where I
had a client that was a prettywell-known firm and a particular
uh specialty, and they had thisPR person.
They kept telling me she'sgreat, she's great, she's great.

(15:21):
She was British.
They had an office in London,based in the US, though.
And she came to a board meetingone time, and I figured out what
she was doing because when shemeets me, she she got a little
too close, okay?
She took my tie in her hands,both hands, and said, Oh, that

(15:41):
is a wonderful tie.
And that's uh she said, Wheredid you get that?
On Saville Row?
And I kid you not, okay?
And I said, No, I think it camefrom like Joseph Bank or
something, you know.
But uh, but anyway, it was clearto me the way she was selling
was simply stroking.

(16:03):
Yeah, she she she she was simplystroking the egos of these guys,
and you know, she was anattractive 50-year-old woman,
and she had, and they were 60 to65-year-old dudes, and they
brought and she brought her25-year-old clone version of
herself along with her,impeccably dressed, you know,

(16:25):
super fit, very articulate.
But anyway, it just really to methat was sort of the epitome of
what that certain type of sellerof PR services that I've seen,
you know, on one, maybe that'sone end of the continuum, and
you're on the other end.
You're like, no BS, you know,you're very, very straight up.

(16:48):
But uh, but anyway.

SPEAKER_04 (16:50):
But Mark, like think about that.
Those guys maybe weren't doingthe due diligence because she
was making them feel so good.

SPEAKER_01 (16:55):
You know, they probably think investment.

SPEAKER_04 (16:58):
They were like, this, because I I do think some
of public relations is aboutego, right?
And that's okay, but like Idon't want people to just hire
us for an in like an exerciseand feeling good.
But I do make my I do pump up myclients.
I want them to feel great.
I don't want them to go out onair and feel terrible, but

(17:18):
that's very funny.
That's a funny story.
No, I mean, we don't that that'sI I do like to think of dress
impeccably well.

SPEAKER_03 (17:26):
I mean, like some of the things you said, but uh not
50.
Let's like, you know, we're notthere yet.

SPEAKER_01 (17:33):
So I I I don't get most of my ties at Joe Bank
either, okay?
I mean, I will admit, althoughwe just went to MoMA last week
and I didn't see anything I likethere, and that was used to be a
great place to get ties.
Museum of Modern Art.
That's it.
But anyway, all right, so enoughof that.

(17:53):
Um, so tell us um more aboutyour business, though.
You've built a successfulbusiness over there.
What what's been the key tothat?
Forget the the services and howyou're unique for a minute.
How have you organized thatthing?
How have you retained,attracted, and retained good
people?

SPEAKER_04 (18:11):
So I I am very careful about where I spend
money and I run a team ofcontractors.
So we can expand and contractvery easily.
So that I think for us withpublic relations the way it is,
you know, we are often the firstservice to get cut, right?
When you think about what peopleneed uh when they're running

(18:33):
businesses because we're B2B,obviously.
Um that has allowed me to keepmost of my team working.
Like we just maybe adjust whatwe're what certain, like because
if they're being paid by theservice or the outcome, they're
always working for the clientsthat we have, but I'm not
getting caught in reallyexpensive, you know, salaries or

(18:53):
even retainers for most of them.
And so that allows me to runthis business extremely
efficiently.
And we were virtual before itwas cool, right?
We opened in 2018 before COVID.
And I also think that, you know,I guess, like I said, being
flexible, hiring the way that wedo for our agency.
And then I hire a lot of workingparents, right?

(19:15):
So for what it's worth, the waythe work that I can offer people
who work for me, it's not a goodfit for everybody.
So I am very careful in findingpeople who would want to work in
an environment like mine for along period of time.
And that greatly reducesturnover, even though I mean, do
you call it turnover if they'recontractors?

(19:36):
I don't know.
But these the people on my teamhave been with me, the majority
of them, for a very long time.
Because if you're a workingparent, a lot of them come from
television journalism.
So they're still connected tothe industry that they love.
They can pick up their kids,they can have some flexibility,
they don't mind that it's notalways the same intensity.
It creates an environment thatworks for the people who work

(19:58):
for me.
And I think that's a key too.
I'm not trying to scoop upbig-time PR agency people that
will be unhappy and think like,oh, well, just work for us
through the summer until you getwork.
Like, I'm really looking forpeople who would thrive in the
environment that I can givethem.
So for us, I think that'sallowed a lot of consistency on

(20:20):
the the my end of things becauseif the clients are, you know,
there's always new clients andthere's a lot of change in that
sense.
There's tons of change in themedia.
Like we didn't even really pickwhen I would put someone on a
podcast in 2018, 2019, it wasthis like novel idea, right?
The industry has transformed inthat sense on what we're working
with.
At least I have reallyconsistent players on this end

(20:42):
who are very happy with theenvironment that we've set up
for them.

SPEAKER_02 (20:45):
So, Ronak, I got I got a big question for you.
What uh how how are you seeingAI affecting everything that you
your industry is doing?

SPEAKER_04 (20:55):
So, you know, that's funny.
So I actually just wrote apiece.
So I I'm I write for Inc.
Inc.
magazine online, and I justwrote a piece on one area where
AI is not welcome, and that's inthought leadership.
So when we see journalists'queries or reporters looking for
sources or quotes, it constantlyno AI answers.

(21:16):
AI answers will be deleted.
It will destroy ourrelationships with them if our
clients use AI.
So for us, we're sort of in thisweird space where in that one
particular issue, like AI is theworst thing you could possibly
use.
We do, however, like use AI whenwe're planning out and mapping
our editorial calendar andpitching themes for our clients

(21:38):
every month, right?
Like there, there are plenty ofways we've used AI to be more
efficient on the services thatwe deliver and maybe researching
potential reporters or outlets,but we cannot.
We can, and my clients cannotuse AI for thought leadership,
or the the damage would beirreparable, not just for them,
but also for us, because we goout on the line, right,

(21:59):
basically.
For every person we take on ourroster, you know, we're putting
our name next to them when wecontact the media.
Because ideally they'll say, oh,it's a pitch from Cleary
Strategies.
We can trust them.
They have vetted them.
I don't need to see their TVclips.
I don't need to see their pastwork.
We know Ronica and her team havedone that.
So we I have not a love-haterelationship, but there are
definitely parts of my workwhere AI is extremely frowned

(22:22):
upon and like cannot be used.
Um but that doesn't mean I don'thave a subscription to you know
Claude and ChatGPT that we use.
It just is for for strategy,planning, research, things like
that.

SPEAKER_02 (22:34):
I want to hang out in this current just a little
bit because I absolutely lovewhat you said.

SPEAKER_01 (22:39):
Well, because he owns a company called Ad Fury AI
as well.
But anyway, go on, Eric.
Okay, so that uh it's not thatI'm biased, Marcus.
No, you spend a lot of timestudying this.
He spends out he really does.
He devotes a certain amount ofhis time every day to studying
AI.
I mean, it's it's a real passionfor you.

SPEAKER_02 (23:00):
Yeah, and well, it's a it's a it's a business I'm
heavily invested in.
So it's not just a passion,Mark.
It's a very risky venture.
I get it.
Which is what we're all talkingabout.

SPEAKER_04 (23:10):
But anyway, I don't want to spend all your venture
need crisis management orplanning.

SPEAKER_02 (23:16):
Oh, yeah.
Totally.
It's all about crisismanagement.

SPEAKER_03 (23:21):
100% live on the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 (23:25):
This is crisis management.
This just having this podcast,right?
That's hilarious.
But what I love about what yousaid, because uh I'd like to
demystify a little bit about thefear factor that I think a lot
of people have about AIreplacing my job, my people, my
business, what do I do?
It gets really confusing therewhen you start really thinking

(23:46):
about the humanoids coming totake over all work, right?
So you got that part, but thenyou also have this overuse and
expectation that you canautomate your face off and don't
have to work anymore and sitback and collect checks.
So there's these two worlds thatI see people that are not
ingrained into AI and businesslike what we're we are today.

(24:10):
Um, and so that can cause just alot of just kind of crappy
business ventures and and thisperspective that you can either
do very little and do very well,or you should not start a
business because the end'scoming soon.

SPEAKER_01 (24:25):
Yeah, like no, you know, there's a continuum there,
and it's the reality's in themiddle.

SPEAKER_02 (24:29):
The reality is in the middle, and it's what and
it's exactly what Veronica'ssaying.
So the human voice is still whathumans want to hear.
They've been wanting to hear itsince the dawn of time, and
we're gonna want to hear ituntil we die.

SPEAKER_01 (24:44):
Yeah, right?
But can I say say somethingabout that related to AI?
Yeah.
So I've written so much stuff,Ronica.
You would not believe it, okay?
I've been I've had a newsletterI published now for 38 years,
basically.
Longer than I've been alive,Veronica.
No, it's not.
Unbelievable.

(25:05):
So every and it comes out everyweek, okay?
I can use AI to go into my ownwriting and mine, my writing
specifically, and say, only usemy stuff as a source.

SPEAKER_05 (25:18):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (25:19):
To pull thoughts together.
No, I'm not gonna take that andthen go there it is on LinkedIn.
I mean, but it does get methinking about things that I
wouldn't think of or wouldn'tnecessarily remember, but it's
my stuff.
I mean, you know, of course.
Anyway, it's a great tool, it'sa great research tool, too.
I mean, let's face it.

SPEAKER_02 (25:39):
I mean if you know how to query it, I mean I mean,
it takes care of a lot of thatthat's amazing, that that
repetitive production-relatedwork, but allows you to what
Ronica just said, which I wantthe audience to hear.
They need to hear it clearly.
Yes, thought leadership.
Even though you have thebrilliant bring this in, you're

(26:01):
still thinking as a human andproviding your thought
leadership from your experiencein life.
No, you're right, to help guideother people, readers, viewers,
whatever it might be, to theright direction as a human with
experiences.
That's the power of it.
And I and I really hope that,and if you're so if you're
trying to start a business, yes,you can use AI to the end of

(26:24):
your life, but you have tothink.
Yeah, you have to take yourexperiences and navigate the
world and business.
But I just really appreciateyour your response to that
because that I mean that'sperfect.
And by the way, that's what themedia to what Ronica was saying,
that's what the media wants andexpects because its readers are
humans, right?

(26:44):
And so don't be bringing me yourAI sloppy freaking quote, yeah,
thinking that you're some sortof scientist.

SPEAKER_01 (26:50):
Yeah, no kidding, exactly, right?

SPEAKER_02 (26:52):
Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 (26:54):
Absolutely, and we didn't even talk ahead of time
and agree that I would say that.
Can you believe that?

SPEAKER_02 (27:00):
That's just so organic and natural.

SPEAKER_01 (27:03):
That's the way we do our shows.
We don't want to talk to peopleahead of time.
I'm serious, it's a lot more funto discover things about the
person live.
Yeah, so I want to ask you abouta take a little slightly
different direction now.

SPEAKER_05 (27:17):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (27:18):
Um, since Eric's monopolized the no, Eric always
does that.
He does that to me, so I'm justdoing it back to him.

SPEAKER_03 (27:25):
It does not bother you because you seem to like
each other.

SPEAKER_01 (27:29):
No, my my uh one of my pet peeves though about
marketing in general, and I knowyou're you know, you're you come
out of a data sciencebackground, everybody wants to
be making data-driven decisions.
And you know, my alma mater usedto be the College of Business
and Administration, now it's theCollege of Business and
Analytics.

(27:50):
Okay, yeah, everybody wants totalk about the data-driven
decisions, but oh some ofmarketing, in my opinion, at
least, has not a damn thing todo with the data.
Because, you know, when I lookat businesses, now, you know,
you work for Inc.
magazine.
Inc.
magazine's fastest product.

SPEAKER_03 (28:10):
But I don't want to, I don't want to be misleading.
I I contribute to their yeah,but we don't get it.

SPEAKER_04 (28:15):
Okay, contribute to what I do, but yes, I I write
thought leadership for them.

SPEAKER_01 (28:23):
Right.
You you know, you know what Inc.
is, and you know what theaudience of Inc.
is, right?
It's privately held businessowners, entrepreneurs.
And you know, um I I've gotplenty of experience.
I've been to the conferences atmy company, one of them was on
the list four times.
So I get that.

SPEAKER_04 (28:39):
We're an ink power partner.
So I'm sorry?
We're an ink power partner.
That's how we got that.

SPEAKER_01 (28:45):
I saw that, right?

SPEAKER_04 (28:46):
Yeah, so we have that in common.

unknown (28:48):
Got it.

SPEAKER_01 (28:48):
But anyway, when I when I think about like some of
the most rapidly growingcompanies that were on that list
where I got familiar with theowners, and forget the industry,
okay?
It could be anything.
A lot of them simply devotedmore money to marketing than
their peers, and they theypoured it into things where you

(29:09):
don't necessarily know what thereturn is.
Everybody is fixated on on youknow um online return on that
spin.
Yeah, because it's completelytraceable.
You know, you know, exactly Igot so many views and so many
clicks and so many whatevers,okay?
But the reality of it is, in myexperience at least, that a lot

(29:31):
of the most successful companiessaid, you know what, we are
gonna just go out there withlike this unbelievable program
and hammer using all kinds ofmedia and publicity, okay,
because it is better than paid.
It's real.
We we know that, but and andthey don't necessarily get re Oh

(29:53):
my god, I only got 2,042 clicksto this one, and we got 2,072
clicks to this one, so we'renever gonna do this again, okay?
It's bullshit, okay.
And the MBAs of the world, whichI have one, and I work for a
college of business.
That's an excellent program, Imight add.

(30:13):
Um, they they they want to takeeverything down to the numbers.
Yeah, you you just can't do itwith marketing.
I at least that's what I think.
Is there a question?
What are your thoughts?
What are you?
Yeah, what are your thoughts?
I have thoughts.

SPEAKER_04 (30:27):
I have I do have thoughts, and I appreciate what
you're saying because the worstpart of my sales pitch, but what
helps me get the best fittingclients, is that there is no
straight line between RPRplacements and your sales.
It just doesn't exist.
And I I I really tried to betransparent about that because I

(30:48):
want people, again, when you'remaking this investment to know
what you're investing in, whichis long-term credibility, you
know, overall increasedpresence, like in the space,
trustworthiness.
These are all things that arereally hard to quantify, but
that absolutely matter and areessential for your growth.
Um, but anybody that I mean,I've had clients where we sit

(31:10):
down and they want to look atthe clicks on the website during
the placements and we have theconversations, but they're not
the right clients.
And that doesn't mean that, Imean, obviously, I think PR is a
great investment.
I think you, I think it makessense.
I'm here because I do PR forclear strategies, right?
Obviously, I think it's worthit.

(31:31):
But if you if you don't reallybelieve in that long-term vision
of the investment over time,changing the way you you and
your business are perceived andviewed and trusted because it's
not paid placements, making itmuch harder to track the
results, then it's probably nota good thing for you to spend
money on.
But I I I always kind of laughwhen I have to kind of have that

(31:53):
conversation if someone bringsit up, because I think this is
probably against like every rulein a sales book.
But if I don't have thisconversation, it's the whole,
it's not a good foundation forthe relationship.

SPEAKER_02 (32:03):
So, Veronica, on that, take us through a use, a
use study, not a case study,right?
But a a fictional but yetrealistic story that if I'm a
new client, I'm like, hey, Ireally want to see data and have
it line up to sales, my sixthousand dollar investment to
you as a publicist.
And you and your response is youneed to be thinking long term.

(32:24):
Well, then then give me a deeperstory about what does it look
like?
Like what's the six, like what'smy experience gonna be as your
client to feel, see the resultsof your work as a publicist?
Like, what's the counter to it?
So it's don't be looking at thewebsite clicks because that's
not gonna line up.

(32:44):
Don't try to measure ROI on allyour data because that doesn't,
but this will happen, Eric.
Like if we have a successfulpartnership together, yeah, you
will experience this, not this,but this.
What does that look like?

SPEAKER_04 (32:59):
So I think it would be improved and more reputable
placements, right?
Maybe bigger reach and a bigger,like a more expansive national
placements, national op-eds,right?
Those are things that we'relooking for and going for.
I also think understanding thatthe placements should be part of
a bigger puzzle and strategy,right?
So for example, Mark, you writea newsletter.

(33:20):
I don't know what the purpose ofthe newsletter is, but a lot of
people write newsletters to getlike customers or to re-engage
with customers or pastcustomers, whatever it might be.
Well, ideally, you're going totake the content from our
placements and put it into yournewsletter to make it a more
robust newsletter to increasethat trust and credibility to
maybe close more clients.
So maybe you can draw a linethat a longer line with more

(33:41):
stop points in the middle, butsay, you know what, my
newsletter has more clicks, mynewsletter has more engagement,
there's more responses on myLinkedIn pages when I'm sharing
my placements and my wins.
So every client is different.
I do think the idea of like ifyou want to write up bets, maybe
we're gonna hit and reach abetter publication or better
outlet.
Maybe you're gonna be asked forrepeat appearances on an outlet,

(34:04):
right?
They're gonna have again andagain, right?
So it it's it's hard to sayexactly what it would be, but we
would take in mind like what isthe client's goal.
Some people don't, some peoplesay, well, we are a national
nonprofit.
We would like placements everyyear in every state that we do
work in.
Or we do do, I'll give you areal case study.

(34:25):
We've been working, we're theagency of record for the seeing
eye.
They're the longest servingguide dog organization.
They train guide dogs for peoplewho are blind, or and and so
that a that organization has nowseen a tremendous increase in
the number of people whovolunteer to be puppy raisers to
then become guide dogs, right?
A sick like that where they canactually point to the increase

(34:47):
of volunteers since we startedworking with them.
So that's like a great examplewhere they can point to results.
And for them, it's notnecessarily, I mean, we've
gotten the national placements,but they're not worried about a
national win, right?
We have that goal in mind forthem.
So we're like, how can we getyou wins related to the
importance of volunteering as apuppy raiser, right?
So they're all different, but Ido think there are goals we can

(35:09):
set for each client that couldhelp them feel that when they
look back, they have a lot topoint to that's successful and
worth the investment.
The other thing we do, look, Ido want to say this.
I understand that people needsome sort of results or numbers
to make sense of thisinvestment, right?
Like I'm not a fool.
And so we do invest in uhtechnology that basically

(35:30):
provides reporting every monthto our clients that gives them
estimates on the reach and themonetary value of the placement
based on competing advertisingcars costs in the market and for
the network and Nielsen ratingsfor the TV programs or web
views, right?
So we give our clients numbersand results that they can
present to their boards or theirinvestors or potential
investors, whatever it is, tosay, okay, we can estimate that

(35:52):
we've reached as many people orthe monetary value of this
investment was would have beenwould have cost us this if we
paid for advertising in the samemarket at the same time.
So, like it's not that there'sno data.
I just don't like to put all thestock in the data and say that's
the most important thing becauseyou guys host a podcast.
You know that your listeners areloyal, committed listeners who,

(36:17):
for the most part, probably comeback week after week because
they like you too, they trustthe guests that you choose, and
they know they're gonna getgreat content.
I would argue there's greatervalue in being on a podcast with
a small, not that you're notthat your audience is small, but
like a small loyal audiencecompared to a national TV
program that is on the airportthat's on mute, that nobody

(36:40):
knows what they're talkingabout.
So that's where the that's why Ido not put all the stock in the
numbers.
We still give people numbers.
Like, I mean, we got to givethem something, yes.

SPEAKER_01 (36:49):
But but can I jump in on this for a minute?
I mean, like I think thatthey're the the to go back to
what you were saying, likewhat's the best outcome that
could come out from that?
I could have somebody reach outto me who is gonna be my
business partner, I could have apotential investor or connection
from somebody that that youknow, whatever we put out there

(37:12):
really was meant something tothem that they introduce us to
somebody who changes the entiretrajectory of our business and
buys our business or whatever.
So there's a lot of differentways it can go.
To me, it's it it just kind oflike you know, do you want to be
selling Toyotas or do you wantto be selling Chevies?
Which one's easier?

(37:34):
Okay, Toyotas are, all right?
I was gonna say our person, Ithink the answer is Toyota, I
don't know.
Right.
It's they're easier to sell.
You know, people know, well,they're reliable, they hold
their resale value.
So it's all these other things,you know, that that if if you've
got the the the right PR, it'sjust one piece of the story that

(37:59):
helps you build the brand thatyou're trying to create that
reduces the risk of buying yourproduct or service.

SPEAKER_02 (38:06):
Yeah, so I have a I mean I'll I'll give a testimony
since Veronica is helpingpodcast videos out so much with
our value.
I believe she is.
I mean, you are, and I'll gothat in a second from what you
said because you brought anotheroh dude, it's beautiful.
But so I'll attest to publicistor publicist PR Earn Media as a

(38:29):
whole, White Spider, right?
Our company.
Yeah.
Folks ask me a lot of times,like, how did it how did you do
it?
How did it get through?
You know, all this kind ofstuff.
There was it was heavily reliedupon publicity and this this
earn media ecosystem.
We were the first out the gateto raise a flag about the
significance of digital commercein omnichannel retail, right?

(38:53):
No one in the community freakingunderstood even what we were
talking about, right?
But we were really I still don'tunderstand.
I know you don't.
Well, you don't have to, but butwe needed the clients to
understand.
We needed the market tounderstand.

SPEAKER_01 (39:07):
You solved the problem and you built a great
business.

SPEAKER_02 (39:10):
100%, but that took a lot of earn media, like we had
to talk and educate and inspirejust a whole market.

SPEAKER_01 (39:18):
You created the the business of what you guys did.
It's basically a 100%.

SPEAKER_02 (39:24):
But I could see the value in that, and it wasn't a
measure of clicks and all thisstuff, but what started to
happen was an inertia.
Yeah.
An inertia and an emotion, notjust my emotion, but a communal
emotion, industry emotion, ofwhere, man, like to Ronica's

(39:45):
point, I was getting calls fromthe New York Times, I was
getting calls from thesedifferent trade pubs, you know,
all the and and and and whenthose things started, they
started compounding.
Yes.
And and the next thing I knew isthat our entire brand, anytime
we were anywhere, our brandshowed up, we were speaking at

(40:05):
an event, whatever it might be,or you'd see our white spider
bus driving by, people knew whowe were, what we represented,
our authority, our credibility.
It was like you could totallysense it.
Like it was there was nomistaking.
There was no like how much youknow, how much credibility did I

(40:25):
get today out of that effort?
And it was never thought aboutthat.

SPEAKER_01 (40:28):
And so But you're an entrepreneur, you understand
that.
See, that's the problem, Ithink.
A lot of businesses are run bypeople who are not
entrepreneurs.
Oh my gosh, you just brought upanother massive topic that I'm
wigging out on lately.
They're freaking engineers orthey're freaking MBAs that
worked in corporate America.

SPEAKER_02 (40:46):
I just wigged it, I just wigged out on a podcast,
Ronica.
You might like this too.
I wigged out, and I actuallyhave to go back and edit it
before it gets released becauseI kind of wigged out almost too
much.

SPEAKER_05 (40:56):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (40:57):
But I was like, there is a difference between a
founder and an entrepreneur.
Yep.
You don't have to be one or theother as to be a good successful
entrepreneur.
But if you but you can easilyupdate LinkedIn and say I'm a
founder today.

SPEAKER_01 (41:10):
And you don't have to be an entrepreneur.

SPEAKER_02 (41:12):
Right.
And they a lot of times, I wouldsay the majority of them are
not.
That's why 95% of businessesfail, because a lot of the
founders are not entrepreneurs.

SPEAKER_01 (41:22):
They don't get this idea of what real time is out
here.

SPEAKER_02 (41:26):
Shameless promoting campaigning and publicity,
right?
Like till you die.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (41:33):
That idea should never stop.
It should never stop.

SPEAKER_02 (41:37):
Never stop promoting.

SPEAKER_04 (41:38):
And wait, you know, you talked about how like then
you're getting calls and thingslike that.
You know, if you had a PR firm,it's funny.
It's not with every client, manyclients they get it, but we we
take credit for that, right?
Just because they called, theycalled you because of all the
stuff we did to get you thepoint.
Sure, you should take credit forthat.
So it's all um, it's very likefluid and expansive, and it's

(42:04):
great to hear you get it.
And you know, not everybody getsit.
You know, I never heard thatdistinction between a founder
and an entrepreneur.
That's interesting.
That's the first time I've heardthat.
Um, but it's not, it's not aninvestment for everybody, but I
still think it is obviously Ireally believe in it, and we
look for clients and people topartner with who get it because

(42:24):
that's when we can have the mostsuccess and the longest-term
engagements because they are notlooking for a quick fix or an
overnight success.
They're looking, they understandlong-term credibility marketing,
if you will, um, and how you getthat in no other way than earned
media.

SPEAKER_02 (42:43):
So, Ronica, I'd only counter with one statement is I
do believe it's an investmentfor everyone.
However, I know you didn't meanit like this, but just to
clarify the audience.

SPEAKER_04 (43:05):
Right.
Because I don't want to arguewith a client to justify what
we're doing, though that doesn'treally happen.
But you that's what I meant whenI said it.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (43:13):
I know, and what I'm trying to articulate is it their
monetary investment in a firmlike yours, that cost may be too
much for them.
But they themselves, as anentrepreneur, absolutely must
invest in their own relentlesspublicity for themselves until

(43:33):
they can get to a paidinvestment with pros like
yourself that can take them andmultiply, right?
Because I see right now as anexperienced entrepreneur like
you do, the absolute criticalintrinsic value of having Ronica
on my team.
Yeah.
Helping me reach out, helping mecraft those strategic messages

(43:53):
in the beginning.
What can I talk about?
Well, you are crazy, Eric, butlet me sit down with you for And
get six bullet points of thestuff that you really are a
thought leader in that you'renot going to be calming me down.
Don't calm me down.

SPEAKER_01 (44:08):
No, I'm not calming you down.
She would love somebody likeyou, my guess is.
I'm not trying to put words inRonica's mouth, because you can
be controversial.
You do have a uniqueperspective.

SPEAKER_03 (44:18):
Oh, yeah, I love that.
I want you to say the craziestthing ever.
But I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 (44:22):
What do you do though, Ronica, when you get
these people and they just comeout and they're like, well,
we're gonna pivot and at the endof the day, and then we're gonna
do find our synergy.
And they just speak in cliches.

SPEAKER_02 (44:34):
My favorite cliche yesterday was my thesis is, my
thesis is.

SPEAKER_01 (44:38):
Now the other one, everybody's got agency now.
That's the new word.

SPEAKER_02 (44:43):
My agency thesis is at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_01 (44:45):
You have agency.
You have agency.
These words, it's just like theyso you must run into those too,
where they basically don't haveanything unique to say.

SPEAKER_05 (44:58):
Well, how do you deal with that?

SPEAKER_01 (45:00):
Um we're easy over here, okay?
But how do you deal with them?

SPEAKER_04 (45:06):
I think the most important place for people to be
relatively controversial wouldbe in op-ed writing.
So if I know a person is reallyuncomfortable in the space of
taking a side or beingincendiary, I discourage the I
discourage that, right?
Because I do think you canprovide pretty moderate

(45:29):
commentary on certain topics.
Like we can find a place foryou, you know, depending on what
it is.
Uh, but it makes our job a lotmore fun and we can do a lot
more with it if you'recomfortable.
You know, we we used to havethis expression in one of my old
TV stations, we would say wewant to be the skunk at the
picnic.
And so, like, if you'recomfortable, like being it's a

(45:52):
good one, right?

SPEAKER_01 (45:52):
And so it's I want to be a skunk at a pick, you
always will be.

SPEAKER_04 (45:56):
That's like that great.
Yeah, that could be reallygreat, but you need to do that
deliberately, right?
You don't you you need to bevery media savvy, or you can get
yourself in a lot of trouble.
And that's where working withlike an experienced team, and a
lot of my team comes from TV,like we really get it, and we
can provide you a littleguidance and make sure we're not

(46:18):
putting you in a situation thatwill be problematic.
Like, we don't want to createunnecessary crisis.
And we also, when we know aclient will not thrive in an
environment like that, we willjust deliberately like not
present or pitch certainopportunities or outlets or
placements because we know itwill not go well.
So that that's one of the manydistinctions from us between
like us and maybe a bookingagency.

(46:38):
You could hire a booking agency,just book placements for you,
but we have to be very strategicand thoughtful based on what
kind of personality are youbringing to the table and where
can you be successful withoutending up in like creating a
problem for yourself?

SPEAKER_01 (46:51):
Love it.
I I got a question for you thatI really want to get out before
we run out of time.

SPEAKER_02 (46:56):
Well, and I have a question too.
Okay.
So hurry up.

SPEAKER_01 (46:59):
Okay.
Um look, especially with yourbackground coming out of being a
White House correspondent, mypersonal stand as it relates to
um this stuff, whether it'ssocial media, general, whatever,
is I take no political stand.
Okay.
Now, some people could saythat's chicken shit or I'm weak

(47:23):
or whatever.
I don't want to alienate half ofmy audience for anything I do.
Okay?
And that is a problem, I think,with a lot of small business
owners that I've seen is they'relike they they live in an echo
chamber, they only associatewith people like themselves and
have the same opinions asthemselves and religious,

(47:45):
political, social topics,whatever beliefs.
And then they they they go outthere on that on that platform
and and they find themselvesbasically walking a plank and
losing half of their marketbecause they they're so certain
of the rightness of theirposition.
What do you think about that?

(48:06):
How do you advise your clientsto deal with contentious social
topics or political stuff?

SPEAKER_04 (48:14):
So I I have pretty hard and fast rule.
You should decide how you feel,how you will like what if you
are going to take a side andwhat side you will take, you
should make those decisionsbefore anything is going on,
right?
So you should make a decision.
Like my our agency is notpolitical.
We are, you know, we we we donot comment on political events.
I spent enough time coveringpolitics, we are not in it.

(48:36):
And so there haven't, so I madethat decision when they were
not, I mean, think about goingthrough COVID years and how much
pressure there was on businessesto, you know, make comment on so
many issues that occurred.
And when we went through thoseyears, it didn't.
Um, and there was a lot ofpressure too, but because I knew
I had made that decision beforeall of that came to light, it I

(48:57):
I kind of said, well, this wasmy decision, this was my
decision.
And reminding yourself that likethese moments in time when it
feels like everyone'scommenting, they do pass, right?
So you can get through themwithout commenting, but there is
risk.
So I can point to one client inparticular that I'm certain that
we lost because we did notcomment on social media about a
huge and controversial headline.

(49:17):
And I knew that was going tohappen.
And even though I made thatdecision, I sort of felt the
pressure.
But I said, look, in the longrun, I do not want to start this
because this is who we decidedwe were not going to be when the
pressure wasn't there.
So when the pressure is there,stay true to that.
So that is the same advice Igive to my clients.
It's not necessarily, Mark, Idon't necessarily tell them all,
don't take a stance.

(49:39):
The idea is does the stancealign with your business?
Like, does it make sense for youto have a stance related to it,
related to your business?
And make that decision when youare not under pressure so that
you can navigate it verythoughtfully when you are under
pressure, right?
So that's more the guidance whenwe do crisis man management and
crisis planning.
That's the direction we comefrom with the guidance.

(50:00):
Cause all jokes aside, you know,we're saying how fun is Eric,
right?
He's like, you know, crazy orwhatever.
He's not crazy, but like he'sgot a personality that he's
happy to engage, like happy tobring to the table.
It's not controversial, but thatcan be being a little
incendiary, being a littleunconventional can be great for
the media, but it has to bedeliberate and decisive and

(50:23):
purposeful.
It cannot just be like, oh, I'mon a whim, everyone's doing this
today, everyone's posting thismessage on social media.
So I have to like, it cannot belike that.
That's where you get lost andit's a terrible strategic
decision.

SPEAKER_02 (50:36):
It's good advice.

unknown (50:37):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (50:37):
I mean, and your stance could be not take a
stance.
Yeah, you see what I'm saying?
Right?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (50:41):
I mean, but I but I mean, like, I don't mind being
incendiary when it comes to likeconventional management
practices that you know I haveno problem with that.
But like politics, it just seemsto me like we don't know who all
we're gonna interact with.
As I mean, as clients orinvestors or employees.
I share the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 (51:02):
I share the same I don't have such a but I don't
think that our conviction is ison that side of stuff is driving
us so incredibly hard to theconviction of those social
things are not as high as ourconviction about running a
business and employing folks anddoing having a purposeful life
existence through business.

SPEAKER_01 (51:23):
Yes, no, you're right.

SPEAKER_02 (51:25):
That's that to me.

SPEAKER_01 (51:26):
That's what drives us.

SPEAKER_02 (51:27):
So if my purpose in business is at this height,
yeah, and I do have opinionsabout things, me too.
I keep in my damn self and Ifreaking zone out and zen out
and get peace with it, right?
Move on with it, you know.
Yeah, I get this purpose ofbusiness where I'm providing
opportunities for fellow mankindto grow and experience wealth

(51:49):
and better lives, that mycontribution solved problems,
that's what I'm about, baby.
You know, so anyway, uh I gotone last question before we
before we wrap it up.
So it's not really a question,Ronica.
I want to see if you will agreewith my statement here because
this is yeah, no, this is big.

SPEAKER_01 (52:06):
This is the judge.
No, what the judge is.
I will agree.
I accept her as a judge.

SPEAKER_02 (52:11):
It does come down to this.
So podcastvideos.com, when Iexplain video and audio
conversational communication,right?
Which we have the power andtechnology to do.
Here's how I best haveencapsulated the ultimate vision
that we have.

SPEAKER_03 (52:29):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (52:29):
Historically, we had a hundred media outlets with a
million listeners apiece.
Now and going in the future,we'll have a million outlets
with a hundred listeners apiece.
That is the revolution of mediain today's time.
What do you think?

SPEAKER_04 (52:49):
Yes.
Yes.
And that's what keeps us, that'swhat we'll use to keep ourselves
in business and showing thatthere's value, even though media
is transforming dramatically.
You still need to be in theplace.
People are still cons media isnot dead.
News is not dead.
We are just consuming itdifferently, one 100%.

SPEAKER_01 (53:09):
Fantastic.
She already alluded to this whatuh earlier.

SPEAKER_02 (53:14):
I wanted her to like rubber stamp my statement, bro.

SPEAKER_01 (53:18):
But see, this is this is what she's saying that
she's trying to do with herbusiness that's different is
they look at those millionoutlets and get the people into
the right ones.
That's a big that's a that's notas it's not as easy in a way as
the old days.
Like you're in the Wall StreetJournal and you're done.

SPEAKER_02 (53:37):
Yeah, PR Newswire, you got 25 outlets, just hit
them.

SPEAKER_04 (53:40):
Yeah, exactly.
It's that's the way it's donedramatically.

SPEAKER_01 (53:44):
Yeah, yeah.
That takes a lot of research toget the right media outlets for
people um to get through totheir audience.
100%.

SPEAKER_02 (53:53):
So Bronca, this has been a great episode.
We really appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01 (53:57):
I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_02 (53:58):
Thank you.
Absolutely.
We need to have her back onsometime.
I think it'd be great.
I think it'd be good.
I like that.

SPEAKER_04 (54:05):
In studio next time.

SPEAKER_02 (54:06):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, any come when next timeyou're down, come see us.
Have you ever been to NorthwestArkansas?

SPEAKER_01 (54:12):
I have not.

SPEAKER_02 (54:13):
It's kind of like a paradise.
I mean, it's like a hidden gemthat we're gonna do.

SPEAKER_01 (54:16):
No, you wouldn't believe it.
People don't anybody who comeshere says, I had no idea this
place was so great.

SPEAKER_02 (54:23):
I mean And that's 30 years after they stayed here.

SPEAKER_01 (54:25):
Yeah, it's it's amazing.
We got over 600,000 people now.
It's a super high growth area.
Bentonville is like Truman Showof it's almost unreal.
Um you can buy a condo in Oh, goahead.

SPEAKER_04 (54:40):
Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 (54:40):
You can buy a condo in downtown Bentonville now of
two million bucks for a thousandsquare foot condo.
I mean, it's gone insane here.

SPEAKER_04 (54:47):
That is.
Well, you all let me put her inPhilly and we'll take you
around.

SPEAKER_01 (54:53):
I love Philadelphia.
I I whenever I go, I stay at theRittenhouse, uh at the
Rittenhouse Square area.
It's a nice area, you can walkaround.
Yeah.
It's an interesting city.
It was when I was young, I Ilived in Boston for 17 years.
I moved there from DFW, not fromthere originally.
But my goal was either live inBoston or Philadelphia.

(55:14):
They're both very historic andwalkable and interesting places
to be.
Yeah, a lot of history there.
Yep.
So anyway, great to have you.
If anybody wants to find you andreach out to you, Ronica, what
is the best way?

SPEAKER_04 (55:29):
They can contact us on Cleary Strategies.com.
You can find me on all socialmedia platforms at Ronica
Cleary, and there's ClearyStrategies accounts on all of
them too.
We try to be very accessible.
And you can also call the phonenumber on our website.
I will answer the phone.

SPEAKER_02 (55:44):
So love that.
That's the best thing in theworld right there.
And when you say cleary, it'sC-L-E-A-R-Y.
Yes.

SPEAKER_04 (55:52):
That's right.
It autocorrects to clearly.
So don't let it do that.
It's Cleary Strategies and it'sRonica like Monica with an R.

SPEAKER_01 (56:00):
Got it.
Well, thanks so much for beingwith us today, Ronica.
It's been great.

SPEAKER_04 (56:05):
It really has.
Thank you, gentlemen.

SPEAKER_01 (56:07):
Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 (56:08):
This has been a fantastic episode of Big Talk
About Small Business.

SPEAKER_00 (56:21):
Thanks for tuning into this episode of Big Talk
About Small Business.
If you have any questions orideas for upcoming shows, be
sure to head over to ourwebsite,
www.bigtalkaboutsmallbusiness.com,and click on the Ask the Host
button for the chance to haveyour questions answered on the
show.
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(56:42):
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