April 1, 2026 • 48 mins
Big companies can hide behind layers of reports and still survive. Small businesses don’t get that luxury, so we brought on Bill Fotsch to talk about what actually works when you’re trying to grow profitably with a lean team and real constraints. Bill’s an engineer by training, a former Bain consultant, and a long-time advocate of open-book management who’s seen the difference between “finance theater” and true employee engagement.
We get into how open-book management evolves into what Bill calls economic engagement: using the operating metrics your people can influence every day and tying them directly to customer outcomes and cash flow. We unpack why concepts like EBITDA often fail on the floor, and why the best metrics feel “nuts and bolts” enough that a crew lead, designer, or frontline operator can use them to win the day. Bill also tells the story of why Net Promoter Score didn’t help until teams asked the follow-up question that matters most: why did the customer score you that way?
Along the way, we challenge big-company advice that gets copied into small business culture, including the idea that there’s one perfect “right way” to run a company. Bill shares his research work with Harvard Business School, the role of mechanisms and management systems, and why employee equity by itself rarely changes behavior without real participation. We also touch on leadership isolation, getting the truth from your team, and how better systems become a practical succession planning strategy that makes the company less dependent on the owner.
If you want to go deeper, we also mention a no-cost diagnostic tool Bill offers so you can learn by doing. Subscribe for more conversations like this, share the episode with an owner who’s stuck chasing the wrong metrics, and leave a review so more small business leaders can find the show.
Check out Bill's diagnostic Tool
Article: Could This Be Your No-Cost Succession Plan?
Article: A Key Strategy to Double Your Profitable Growth
Subscribe and tune in for new episodes of Big Talk About Small Business with Mark Zweig and Eric Howerton. Each week we focus on practical insights and real-world strategies to grow your business!
Stay Connected:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bigtalk.pod/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61564547079280
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/big-talk-about-small-business
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@bigtalkpod
https://www.bigtalkaboutsmallbusiness.com/
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
The thing that is a challenge with larger companies
is they're like dinosaurs, verybig bodies, really small brains.
Well, it's true.
Okay.
And they lumber about.
SPEAKER_02 (00:26):
Well, let's get started.
SPEAKER_04 (00:28):
We like to keep it spontaneous here on our show on
another episode of Big Talkabout small business.
SPEAKER_02 (00:40):
All right.
We gotta we do that every time,Bill.
We gotta keep it live.
SPEAKER_03 (00:48):
I feel like I should be going yee-haw or something
like that.
SPEAKER_04 (00:52):
You'll get another chance when we end it, Bill, so
get ready.
Like you'll you can this one,this one's for you to see.
The next one's for you to join.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00):
You you got, yeah, exactly.
So, Bill, we have Bill Fox withus today.
The guy is really, he's prettyfamous, truthfully.
He's done a lot of really coolstuff.
And he's worked with lots ofbusinesses, large and small.
And he's a big, big advocate ofopen book management, which is
where I sort of connected withBill.
SPEAKER_03 (01:21):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02 (01:21):
But um, so Bill, tell everybody a little bit
about yourself, though.
SPEAKER_03 (01:26):
And just a brief one was I'm an engineer by training,
worked at Briggs and Stratton,that's where I cut my teeth.
And I mentioned that becausethat is a lot of how I think.
Meaning, how do things work?
That's what I want to know.
(01:46):
Um, so headed off to businessschool because I realized I knew
a lot about manufacturing andengineering, not much about
marketing and finance.
Um and then uh some would saysold my soul to Bain and Company
for uh six years.
Uh it was the same six yearsthat all the kids were born, so
(02:07):
it was nice to be overpaid for aperiod of time.
Um, I I then worked for three orI'm sorry, for two three-year
stints at corporate America.
By the way, the smile is workingfor me.
Um and um I was a very lousy fitfor corporate America.
I understand that.
(02:28):
Yeah, well, you you you wouldgiven our our conversations,
Mark.
The the notion of things shouldmake sense, and I don't salute
necessarily really well.
And I never kiss rings.
And and that was that likereally didn't work.
(02:51):
Um, so uh, but the the good newsout of that, the two stints at
Teneco and at um Litton, TenecoVP Business Development.
Um, so I was the like strategyand deals guy.
And it was in that um in thatposition that I did a joint
(03:12):
venture with Jack Stack.
Okay.
And and Jack was just gettingrolling with his uh great game
of business, the the open bookstuff.
Um, and I saw what was going onthere, and I thought, this is so
much better than what we'redoing at JIKES.
(03:32):
It's not even close.
Uh it was, I would tell you thatthe joint venture we did, which
is megavolts, which was startersand alternators, continues to
stay.
The one thing I made sure wasthat SRC owned majority
interest.
Because I didn't know how long Iwas going to last the tentacle,
(03:54):
and God, I was certain we'd beable to screw it up if we if we
ran it.
SPEAKER_02 (04:00):
So SRC, for those who didn't know, that was Jack's
company, Springfield Rebuilders.
What was it?
Springfield Rebuilder.
SPEAKER_03 (04:08):
Springfield remanufacturing.
Right.
That's right.
Yeah, they were a they were agreat supplier to JIKs.
And the joint venture was, theydidn't do remanufacturing
starters and alternators.
We had a lousy supplier instarters alternators.
So we were distribution, theywere product.
(04:30):
Megavolt was the name of thecompany.
Uh, in any event, I wasn't smartenough to realize that it was a
lousy fit for corporate America,so I took a job at Lytton
Industrial Automation and provedthe point that I was really a
lousy fit for corporate America.
In any event, um, as I waspretty much certain that I
(04:54):
wanted to get the devil out ofthere, um, I ended up spending
three days on Table Rock Lakewith Jack Snack.
In theory, catching fish.
At least actually Jack sayshappened.
We drank so damn much beer thatI'm really not sure.
SPEAKER_02 (05:14):
But we're down here in our part of the country, man.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (05:17):
100% exactly right.
Table Rock Lake.
That's a cold.
Um, and and why you have to goin a bass boat at 60 miles an
hour from one part of the laketo another is a mystery to me.
SPEAKER_04 (05:32):
Okay, you gotta get there quick.
It makes it more fun.
Yeah, you gotta get there quick.
I mean, the fish are bottomtrying to beat the competition.
SPEAKER_03 (05:40):
And and I can tell you that um, given that I was in
fear for my life, I saw Godseveral times.
Okay, so that was cool.
SPEAKER_04 (05:49):
Yeah, that's another reason.
SPEAKER_03 (05:51):
Well, there you go.
In any event, um, at the end ofthose three days, we had
basically outlined the businesspremise for what came to be
known as great gain coaching.
And uh that was great.
The the thing, and it reallykind of leans into one dimension
that I think your audienceshould be sort of thinking about
(06:12):
is the whole open book, make theeconomics come alive, so the in
effect, all of your employeescan partner with you and drive
the business.
That was all fine.
At the same time, when thefinancial crisis hit in 2008, it
was all about revenue.
(06:33):
And I looked at my bag oftricks, I didn't have much on
revenue.
So that actually spawned a fairamount of thought with respect
to, hey, wait, wait a minute,how do we drive revenue?
Because all the clients I wewere working with, our revenue
was a function of their results.
(06:55):
So we were more than casuallyinterested in their results.
That started migrating mythinking about open book
management.
I'll call it kind of expandingit.
The other thing that was truewas with a lot of the clients
that I work with, we we weren'treally true to the faith in
(07:16):
terms of it's all about incomestatements and balance sheets.
So a really large company, as anexample that I work with, which
was a mining company, ZambianConsolidated Copper Mine,
literally in Zambia, Africa, andthat's it's its own sort of
story.
But with those folks, if youpulled out income statements and
(07:36):
balance sheets, they'd laugh youout of the place.
But if you talk to them about,well, the issue is generating
more cash, we're behind onorders to customers, throughput
is the order of the day, moretons per day, week, month.
That's what drives it.
Um and that's how we startedevolving to what we now call
(08:01):
economic engagement.
Call it open book managementwith more focus on the customers
and more focus on the operatingmetrics that drive the
financials rather than thefinancials per se.
SPEAKER_02 (08:17):
Um so we're talking about like leading indicators,
like marketing-related stuff,inquiries.
SPEAKER_03 (08:24):
Yeah, I'd say kind of that that's right, but kind
of much more kind of sort ofnuts and boltsy.
What do I mean by that?
Um, I'll go back to the uhfinancial crisis.
We we man, we tried everythingand anything because we needed
more revenue and we're we'refreaking dying.
(08:45):
And in those days, uh a guy Iknew from um my days at Bain and
Company, Fred Reicheld, was justcoming out with a net promoter
score.
So we tried that.
And it's like rate, yourcustomers rate you from one to
ten.
It it made no differencewhatsoever.
It was not helpful at all.
(09:06):
Okay, but we followed up withasking folks why?
Why are you rating us?
Whatever that made all thedifference in the world.
Because all of a sudden they'retalking to us about what's
really important to them.
(09:26):
Repeat, referral, revenue startsroaring.
So the the leading indicators,I'll call it conceptually, I
think that's right, but it'skind of more nuts and boltsy
than that.
In in in like each case.
Um in operations, um, ifthroughputs the issue, then
(09:49):
throughputs the issue, and ifthat's what's going to drive the
financials, but yeah, when I hadthe privilege of working with
Southwest Airlines, with them,it was cost per passenger mile.
And I mean, it permeates thewhole organization because
(10:10):
everybody's thinking about costper passenger mile.
Now, is that the thing thatdrives the financials?
Absolutely, but they didn'treally spend much time speaking
about income statements andbalance sheets.
The other thing that's advankind of advantageous, and
there's exceptions to that,quite frankly.
(10:32):
I'm thinking about um my buddiesat MSA Engineering, we
absolutely talk about financialstatements.
We we I mean, we did that.
So it's it's sort of selective.
Um when people understand whatthe hell they're talking about,
(10:53):
put another way, I was at avista meeting recently, and I
asked supposed one guy said,We're all over this.
I said, Really?
That's great.
What are you focused on rightnow?
And he said, EBITDA.
I said, really?
And he said, yes.
And he was, I was really quiteproud of it.
(11:15):
And I said, so EBITDA tends tomean I have no idea what you're
talking about.
I I think that's what EBITDAtypically means for most folks.
He said, no, but we trainedeverybody on EBITDA.
I said, great! When did you dothat?
He said, six months ago.
I said, super.
(11:38):
Do they use EBITDA on like adaily basis?
Well, well, not really.
How many of the folks do youthink could tell you what EBITDA
is today?
It's six months ago.
And then he got kind of adowncast look.
He is trying, he's moving in theright direction, okay?
(12:01):
But if you're not talking in thelanguage that people are
actually experiencing, theirday-to-day stuff.
I I just came out of a weeklymeeting with one week bath.
That I own 30% of the company.
They were client and became uman investment, which is kind of
(12:23):
its its own story.
What do they do?
Bath renovations?
Exactly right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And our our our unique featureis that because and Matt Plaskov
is a genius, he's a really greatguy.
Is he came to conclude that mostfolks remodel baths, which is
the most common remodel um inmost homes, they do kind of a
(12:49):
lousy job at it.
So if you think about what youmight do in applying lean
principles to how you remodel abath, that's what open book,
that's what um one-leaf bath is.
And so let me do itrhetorically.
With our um, our business is now70% repeat and referral.
(13:17):
So that's all aboutrelationships.
Who do you think has the tighterrelationship with our customers?
I give you three choices thesales guys, the designers, or
the leads on the crew thatactually install the bath.
Hundred percent.
(13:38):
You're exactly right, okay?
They know job one is to get areally happy customer that
inevitably means repeat andreferrals.
So it's that's what I mean aboutreally nuts and boltsy.
So, Rudy, as an example, is oneof the leads.
(13:59):
He's a character.
Rudy, are you gonna get anotherfive-star Yelp review?
Well, of course, Bill.
I mean, why do I ask?
Okay, Rudy, right, that's cool.
Why do you think you're gonnaget a get a five-star review?
Bill, I speak with the theowner, she's a 60-year-old
(14:24):
woman, every morning.
I know exactly what she'sthinking about and what she's
concerned about.
And she's had a couple of otherremodel jobs, they never had any
rapport like that.
So it's that that's what I meanabout kind of nuts and bolts-y
(14:46):
sorts of things.
It's it's not a lot of magic,but one of the things that I
think very few of small tomedium customers do well is
actually regularly speak withour customers about what they
value.
So they really know, not guess.
SPEAKER_02 (15:06):
Yeah.
Well, I think there's a lot ofreasons for that, Bill.
I mean, first off, we've got alot of business owners that
aren't engaged with theircustomers.
Okay, they're all sitting theregoing to vistage meetings who
are telling them, work on yourbusiness, not in your business,
which is the biggest crock ofbullshit I've ever heard in my
in my life.
(15:27):
Okay.
So that's one problem um, Ithink that that um exists out
there.
Um and and the second one isthere's no discipline, there's
no process, there's noconsistency that they apply
every single time.
I mean, you know, uh Eric and Iare involved in a company where
(15:49):
we've got this creativeconsultant, okay?
And I like the guy, and I thinkhe's talented, but I've told him
I want a weekly job statusreport on what you're working
on, what you got done this week,and what you're gonna do next
week.
And I cannot get the guy whosays, Abs, it's a great idea,
(16:11):
absolutely, we need to do that.
I have yet to get one of thesedamn things.
Okay.
And it blows my freaking mind.
So the communications, there'sno consistency.
And and you're, I mean, yeah, itis a pretty simple idea.
It's like talk with your clientsand customers.
(16:31):
But if I'm all, you know, goingto vistage meetings and and
listening to all these quoteexperts they drag in in front of
you as speakers, and I say thatas somebody who is a vistage
chair.
Okay, I know what it's allabout.
SPEAKER_04 (16:47):
I'll I'll add a all right.
I'll add a third one there.
What's that?
And Bill kind of hit on it whenwe talked about MPS scores,
EBITDA, these other things thatmajor like the big company, the
big, big companies have to dobecause there's massive
structures, shareholders, allkinds of freaking red tape,
blah, blah, blah.
(17:07):
My one of my big problems hasbeen was like that there's some
sort of perfect right way to doit.
And if you don't do it thatexact way, then you're not doing
it the right way.
So you get all this advice fromoutside or from bigger, and you
naturally look to biggercompanies because I'm like, oh,
well, they they obviously haveit figured out because they're
big, they're they're where Iwant.
Right, they're successful.
They're successful.
Right.
(17:27):
And I mean that that lie, thatself-lie has been one of my
biggest freaking bottlenecks forme to just drive the way I know
I should.
And Bill, what I love about whatyou were talking about earlier
is like, you know, who who isthe right if we're if our
business grows and our revenuegrows because there's it's a
relational business, who on theteam has the closest relation to
(17:50):
that?
Focus on that, put metricsbehind that.
So you're you're talking aboutwhat I love, I love that it's
even making me think.
You're talking about taking wideworlds of MPS scores, which I've
in I've implemented, didn't do adamn thing for me.
The only thing it did for mebefore was that my previous
company gave me a score that myacquisitional company was gonna
(18:12):
buy as that's what they wanted.
So I we we did it.
And we came back with highreviews.
Like they're like, this is thebest damn MPS score you've ever
seen in our life.
I'm like, yeah, because I knowwhat our customers care about.
You don't fail them, you callthem back.
Like it's very relational.
Like in I'm bleeding every dayfor 12 years, but I knew the
(18:32):
right way to handle thebusiness, but I didn't ever put
a method.
But what I like about Bill, itmakes me excited to think I can
have more confidence as anentrepreneur that's in touch
with my audience, zeroing downin a really small world.
Where's the one thing that likeI got to do to your point,
discipline every single day?
Yeah.
Where do I focus in on?
(18:53):
And that's kind of what you'retalking about.
SPEAKER_03 (18:55):
Yeah, and well, and uh as soon as you are really
partnering with your employeeson serving customers profitably,
by the way, just let me stopthere for just a second.
Partnering with the employees toserve customers profitably.
What company does that amountnot apply to?
SPEAKER_02 (19:16):
Uh at all.
SPEAKER_03 (19:17):
It applies to unfortunately the the the thing
that you were saying, though,about um larger companies.
The thing that is a challengewith larger companies is they're
like dinosaurs, very big bodies,really small brains.
(19:37):
Eventually, well it's true,okay, and they lumber about, and
it and it's it's like a hugeflywheel.
You can screw up on stuff rightand left.
SPEAKER_02 (19:51):
Oh, thank God.
You know, that was always my mygripe with good to great, which
a lot of people acted like wasthe greatest management Bible of
all time.
Give me all these companies thatare frigging 30, 40, 50 years
old that are billions of dollarsin revenue, okay, and and say
(20:12):
that what applies to themapplies to the rest of us out
here who are fighting for anexistence.
It's insane.
SPEAKER_04 (20:19):
It's a big corporation CEO book to breed.
Yeah, it's good for them.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (20:23):
Yeah.
As long as they don't mindmodeling themselves after
businesses that are out ofbusiness, it's great.
Circuit City and Fannie Mae andall that.
But yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (20:32):
I have a bittersweet relationship with Jim Collins.
Okay.
Okay.
Let me start with the sweetpart.
Before Jim published Good toGreat, he had given an advanced
copy to Jack.
(20:52):
Jack gave me a copy and said,Read this, tell me what you
think.
And I read through it and Isaid, Well, one thing for sure,
I see what he was talking aboutabout mechanisms, repeatable
processes that go beyond anygiven leader.
That's what great game ofbusiness is.
(21:15):
I mean, he didn't happen to saygreat game of business, but
that's what it, I mean that'swhat it meant.
He says, here's his phonenumber.
Call him up, tell him that.
I said, sure, I don't know Jimfrom Adam.
He said, no, just call him.
Okay, so so I called Jim, andJim answers the phone.
(21:37):
Well, he wasn't a big shit then,yeah.
Exactly correct.
Well said.
By the way, you're you'reheading to the bitter part,
okay?
But nonetheless, nonetheless, Isaid, um, I I hope it's okay.
Jack gave me a copy of yourbook.
I read it.
The the thing I really like wasmechanisms.
Because that's what we're doinghere.
(21:58):
That's what Great Game ofBusiness is.
He says, that's what I'm tellingStack.
I said, you two need to gettogether.
I'm just like a middleman here.
Okay.
So that was a happy discussion.
Um, when Good to Great and Builtto Last had were out for quite
some period of time.
(22:20):
I did the following.
I looked at the 18 companies and11 companies that it was that
they were based on.
And I looked at, because it wasall about they were chosen as a
function of their stockperformance in the prior 20
years, right?
That was that was why they werechosen.
So I looked at their stockperformance in the 20 years
(22:42):
after the book was published.
Yeah, it probably sucked formost of them, didn't it?
Yeah, that um several of themhad gone bankrupt.
Okay, Circuit City was anexample of that.
Right.
As a group, they substantiallyunderperformed the SP 500.
So I I wrote an article that Isent to Jim, and the article was
(23:07):
why the Built the Last companiesdidn't last.
I bet he loved that.
Well, and I said this isn't thearticle.
Jim, I should not be writingthis article.
You should be writing thisarticle.
SPEAKER_02 (23:20):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (23:21):
And um, by the way, I ended up speaking to his chief
of staff.
Never spoke with Jim.
He was, I forget they had an oh,in monk mode.
He was thinking about the nextbook.
He was in monk mode, I think.
Oh my god.
Um don't disturb him.
SPEAKER_02 (23:42):
I'm sorry.
I said, don't disturb him whenhe's in monk mode.
SPEAKER_03 (23:46):
Well, I I think he he, in fact, was disturbed, and
my analysis had suggested, infact, that was the case.
Okay, but that that reallydidn't help.
So the funny thing, I I likemechanisms.
I think big hairy audaciousgoals is bullshit.
Um, and the reason I say that istake um, what was the name of
(24:08):
the the company that um it wasgonna revolutionize the office
space starting in New York?
Oh yeah.
Uh WeWork.
We work.
We work, yeah.
Okay.
We work had a big, hairy,audacious goal.
I don't think it was the goalwas to burn through four billion
dollars of SoftBank's money.
(24:29):
I'm not, I don't really thinkthat was the goal.
That was what they achieved.
Okay, but so if you say big,hairy, audacious goal with folks
that were really successful, bydefinition, you're right.
But it's not predictive.
Okay.
Um there are other aspects, andthen there are various things
(24:51):
that people like the hedgehogand all that kind of crap.
Um I'm Yeah, get the rightpeople on the bus and all that.
But level and I've seen if youget the wrong people, that's
bad.
But like, I don't think I need abook to tell me that.
I mean, well, they pretty muchgot that one.
SPEAKER_02 (25:09):
It's the problem I the biggest problem I had is the
whole level five leadershipconcept, especially when it
applies to smaller companies,okay.
We're not all ready for levelfive leadership, okay?
SPEAKER_03 (25:22):
Well, and and and frankly, the notion that it was
research-based is nonsense.
Yeah, exactly.
And that the the research that Iended up doing subsequently is
what research is about.
You you look for data to test apremise.
(25:44):
The premise I was looking to dowas say good to great are built
to last.
They were recipes for successgoing forward.
Let's see if that's true.
No, it's not true.
Okay, oh, geez.
The the and I'm kind of anal onthat because um, as as you know,
Marvin, um I ended up doingyears of research with Harvard
(26:09):
Business School.
I I I, by the way, can tell youfirsthand what purgatory is
like.
Because I've been there.
It's slow, it costs money, andyou have no idea what the
outcome is going to be.
I mean, that's just that'sthat's what research is.
(26:30):
The thing that was kind ofinteresting, though, is the
research that we did on, let'scall it defining.
Are you guys okay?
SPEAKER_02 (26:41):
Yeah, yeah, sorry, guys.
SPEAKER_03 (26:43):
Mark's breaking my mic fell off.
SPEAKER_04 (26:47):
I'll do it.
SPEAKER_03 (26:48):
Eric, do you get hazard pay working with Mark?
SPEAKER_04 (26:51):
I don't, I don't, uh I feel very, very vulnerable.
SPEAKER_02 (26:56):
We didn't mean to interrupt your story.
SPEAKER_04 (26:58):
Anyway, Mark can bankrupt me at any moment.
SPEAKER_02 (27:00):
Okay.
Well, I do like to break off thecamera that's right against the
door opening.
Yeah, yeah, you do do that.
That has been a problem.
But anyway, um, Bill, Bill, goback.
So Harvard Business Schoolresearch, though.
SPEAKER_03 (27:15):
Yeah, the the thing that was good about it, um I had
a bittersweet relationship witha lot of good folks, I guess,
but um, with a HBS professor whoI was introduced by the dean.
I was my both of my boys went toHarvard Business School also.
So I spoke with Dean Norria, whoI think is a really great guy,
(27:38):
um, Indian by descent, veryhumble by nature.
You would never pick him out asnow the retired um dean of
Harvard Business School.
In any event, um, he connectedme with a professor, so I had
him uh the professor visit avariety of folks I had worked
with.
And um, to his credit, he askedwhat was a life-changing
(28:03):
question.
He said, Bill, what's your endgoal?
I said, Oh, that's that's easy.
I want to change the world.
He said, Yeah, by that time, hewas used to my Midwest kind of
comments, right?
He said, What do you mean?
I said, business is a huge forcefor good.
(28:25):
Yet we got folks talking aboutsocialism as the way to go.
And most folks, if you ask, isbusiness evil or good, they will
say evil.
That's the average.
Well, because that's that's howit's portrayed in pop culture.
Well, exactly right.
Uh, although albeit at times, Imean, men are laid off 10% of
(28:48):
their workforce earlier thisweek.
Well, that's business.
The the upshot is my my premisewas business is this huge force
for good.
If business practiced well, itin fact is a force for good.
And then he said something thatreally screwed up my life.
(29:11):
He said, Bill, Galileo changedthe world.
He didn't do it with a winningsmile, he didn't do it with a
story, didn't do it with ananecdote, he had researched.
I said, shit, does that mean Ihave to do research?
He said, only if you're seriousabout changing the world.
(29:34):
I couldn't figure out anyrational way out of it.
So that's why I literally spentthree years, a little plus of
that.
And but the the details are kindof tough for a um a setting sort
of like this.
But suffice it to say that whatwe did was define in what ended
(29:54):
up being five drivers, whatfundamentally running a business
well is.
There are three questions eachthat measured like, how well are
you doing on this driver object?
And they really measuringmechanisms.
(30:16):
That's what we were doing.
So one of the one of thequestions on customer engagement
was do you regularly reach outto your customers and get input
on what they value?
Always, sometimes, never.
And it's so it's not, by theway, the you know, how employees
(30:41):
feel.
That's not what we're askingabout.
We're asking about managementsystems mechanisms again to use
the Jim Collins thing.
Well, the bottom line is afterwe did eight waves of 50 to 150
companies per wave, and we sawevery damn time that if you were
(31:04):
top quartile, you had double theprofit growth of the average,
and the average had double theprofit growth of the bottom
quartile.
When you see that once, it'sinteresting.
When you see it eight times,it's kind of statistically
significant.
(31:25):
And and that's the um uh thatthat's was a a a real insight um
why Harvard Business Reviewwould refuse to publish it after
we'd already published fiveother articles is a mystery to
me.
SPEAKER_02 (31:44):
I took that up to the editor-in-chief.
And you've been in HBR a lot, soit's not like you're breaking.
SPEAKER_03 (31:51):
Oh, yeah, it wasn't like I was unknown.
Right.
Yeah, we I we we've written fivearticles.
I I I having had severalconversations with the folks, I
I I guess I conclude that thereare that's one of the reasons
I'm enjoying this on the Sunday.
I'm canceled in a variety ofsettings.
(32:13):
And you don't even know you'recanceled.
I mean, it's not like a flaggoes up.
Okay, you you just all of asudden, like emails don't get
responded to.
SPEAKER_02 (32:28):
Well, are you too much of a shit disturber?
Is that what happened?
SPEAKER_03 (32:35):
Um let's let's put it this way.
I'm for sure a jerk.
Okay, no question about it.
Hands down, if my wife Joy of 45years came in, by the way, she
would first say 46 is noguarantee.
Okay, that's the first thing shewould say.
Um, but if she heard me say I'ma jerk, she'd go, yeah, okay, I
(32:59):
don't know what Elsie said, butthat's a fact.
Okay, that's a I'm I'm awell-intended jerk, but but a
jerk nonetheless, I hatebullshit.
Yeah.
I'm with you.
And and I I throw the flag and Igo, like, that's bullshit.
And um, there's a lot of folksin various um settings that
(33:23):
really don't like that at all.
Um, uh I'll give you an example.
Um, the professor connected mewith a guy by the name of Pete
Savros.
Pete is the um a very senior KKRum partner, and Pete was just
starting what he calls ownershipworks, which is to say they put
(33:46):
three percent of the stockdistributed to the employees,
and that's gonna like createsome sort of magic.
SPEAKER_02 (33:58):
Yeah, well, it's just like the whole Aesop
philosophy, which I think youand I have talked about in the
PR.
SPEAKER_03 (34:04):
It is it is it's I mean, in a way it's worse.
And well, let me let me tell youwhat I mean by that.
If a hundred percent ownershipof stock does not affect
employees' behavior, and that'sreally well documented.
I mean, there's a it's not likeup for discussion, then what's
(34:27):
the likelihood that 3% of stock?
I mean, you know, it's likewho's getting who?
So when he he very proudlyexplained that to me, and I
said, that is such a nice badidea, and the professor nearly
had a coronary, and what do youmean by that?
(34:50):
I said, Well, look, I I don'thave an acts to grind in this.
I'm just saying that we alreadyknow that 100% ownership by
employees does not affect theirbehavior.
It's the mechanisms that affectthe behavior, it's the way in
which they're participating inthe company.
(35:11):
That's what affects theirbehavior.
So if we know that you're notgoing to get any movement in
performance, but it's reallynice.
I'm guessing nobody turned downthe stock.
It's so true.
Well, yeah, and and um, by theway, does Pete hate me?
(35:34):
Yes, yes, he he hates me.
It by the way, it got evenworse.
Um, he wrote an article abouthow uh giving employees equity
was a bit like this game changerin capitalism, and it was in
fortune.
And I wrote an article a monthlater that said, well, maybe,
you know, if you get the folksengaged in the business.
(35:57):
Um so uh and and one of thethings that's hard for an
individual like Pete is how manyfolks do you think tell Pete
you're full of shit?
Oh, exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (36:12):
He's a big KKR partner, no way.
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_03 (36:16):
Okay, you know, so it's true.
That's that's always a bit of aproblem.
That's why I've told my wifethis a million times, but it's
really true.
So if this, by the way, stays inour, you know, doesn't get
edited out, that'd be great.
Um I was gonna say joint kicksme in the ass like daily.
(36:42):
I mean, and I'm not talkingabout like once a day.
SPEAKER_02 (36:47):
I can't say that I can't identify with that, Bill.
And and uh Eric knows my wife.
We've all worked together in thesame room before, so he knows
it's probably true.
SPEAKER_04 (36:58):
Oh yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (36:59):
I I get it.
SPEAKER_03 (37:00):
Well, but um even biblically, um think about this
for a second.
Saint Paul, he's actuallyspeaking to God, right?
Road to Damascus, most prolificof all of the apostles, no one
(37:22):
else is close, but they talkabout a thorn in his side.
They don't ever describe any anydetails about it, but there's a
thorn in his side.
Why did God give him a thorn inthe side?
My answer is to make sure heunderstands he's human.
SPEAKER_04 (37:43):
Yeah, yeah.
We we all we all need a yeah,that that's a problem if you
have somebody that everyone'safraid to say something to, and
then they I mean it's not evengood for them, it's good for no
one.
Why do you do that?
SPEAKER_03 (37:56):
Eric, I couldn't agree more, but uh it it's also
not something that you regularlyseek what you need.
Yeah, right?
I mean, I assure you, it's onlyJoanne and I it'll be 46 uh this
(38:16):
June that we'll be years thatwe'll be married.
For the first like 20 years, shewould say something and it would
just bother the hell out of me.
Now she says stuff, and I gothank you.
(38:39):
I get you.
And and and and and the realsecret is meaning but meaning it
when you say thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (38:46):
No, I I get that.
I'm in the same boat.
I I can identify with that.
But I do think that that thathappens that that isolation,
because in many cases thehigh-level people don't get out
on the floor and they don't dothe actual work of the business
alongside the workers and get,you know, they're they isolate
(39:08):
themselves, they're they've gotspecial parking places, they've
got a bigger office, they onlygo out to eat with each other,
okay?
They create all the they've gotthese gatekeepers that they're
answering their freaking phone.
SPEAKER_04 (39:21):
Executive assistants, okay.
SPEAKER_02 (39:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (39:24):
Executive assistant agents now, like it, yeah, they
isolate themselves.
Exactly.
I have the so that that I agree,that is a big problem.
I know.
I have another problem.
My problem is I can't get thedamn truth from people.
Yeah.
Because of what you were talkingabout a second ago, Bill, like
my staff may not want to tell methe truth about what's going on.
SPEAKER_03 (39:43):
It's a it's a really great point, Eric.
But part and part of what I'msaying is if it's very clear
that we all have the same goal,yeah.
At the end of the day, ourchecks are signed by our
customers.
SPEAKER_04 (39:58):
That's a yes.
Amen to that.
Sure.
Damon, I say that all the time.
Yep.
SPEAKER_03 (40:02):
But well, and the the other thing that would tell
you is there are there arecompanies that get this and then
they perform like crazy well.
I'm pleased to tell you, uh, myson, uh, my oldest son, is
working at Taco Bell.
Okay.
Do you know, and he's part ofthe senior management team?
(40:23):
Okay.
Do you know what Taco Bell ispart of the senior management
team?
First of all, when he came onboard, he had to spend 15
eight-hour sessions and allkinds of different franchisees
working eight-hour shifts rightnext to the folks.
(40:49):
Well, can you imagine all thegreat stuff that that does?
Absolutely.
There's a reason that Taco Bellis the star of the Young Brands
group.
SPEAKER_02 (41:00):
Sure.
You know, Home Depot does thattoo.
My friend, he was the seniorvice president and controller
for Home Depot.
And they made all of theirexecutives go out and work in
stores for a week at a time.
SPEAKER_03 (41:15):
It's it's I think it's brilliant.
The the one that I reallyenjoyed when I was working, I
mean, I was working at SouthwestAirlines 20 years ago when
Southwest Airlines was SouthwestAirlines.
I'm not too sure who SouthwestAirlines is today.
And and by the way, I invested,it was the only stock that Joy
(41:37):
and I invested in come on abusiness school.
We didn't have very much money.
And we but we invested inSouthwest, because I I we I did
uh case on it.
I thought this is like, this islike too good.
I want to be part of this, andit it'd go up and split, go up
and split.
Here's the story.
I'm working with the pilotsbecause I found with real large
(42:00):
companies you got to work withall the small groups, not
corporate.
So I ended up working with thepilots of the Orlando branch,
and they were they it was great,and we were just like churning
out additional money.
It was, I mean, it was so muchfun, it was ridiculous.
And somebody says, this is a lotlike what do they call it?
(42:27):
I'm trying to remember the exactname.
Cutting edge.
This is a lot like cutting edge.
I said, What the hell is cuttingedge?
He says, Well, about 20 yearsago, one of the pilots, they
they when they when they land,they always stay at the same
hotel.
Okay, they get the good ratesand you know that kind of stuff,
(42:49):
right?
Uh, you know, well, at leastwhen they're not at their base.
And um they were having adiscussion at the bar, and one
of the pilots said, you knowwhat the problem with us?
The other pilot says, What'sthat?
He says, We're starting to getuppity.
We're starting to get like justlike the competition.
You know, we're just full of it.
(43:10):
And the pilots are the worst.
And somebody else says, you knowwhat we ought to do?
What's that?
We should get like 20 of us.
And for a day, every once in awhile, just descend on a
(43:31):
particular terminal and we'll dothe ground cruise work for a
day.
Because you know, that's theshit job, right?
That's like emptying the layoutsand all that stuff.
Anyway, so they did it.
There was no corporate supportfor this.
The pilots did it all on theirown.
I said, that is so great.
(43:52):
He said, Yeah, we actually havea uh cutting edge event
scheduled for Orlando.
Orlando was where I was workingwith them.
I said, has any nonpilent,non-Southwest employee ever
participated in cutting edge?
And the guy, Kent, I won't givehim the last name because you
(44:13):
know it's a long time ago, but Istill think he's safe.
He says, Um, I see exactly whereyou're going though.
And look, if we go throughchannels, we'll never get this
approved.
So we're not going to go throughchannels.
I said, Well, I mean, let's beclear about this.
I don't look good in orange.
I don't I don't want to bearrested.
(44:33):
No, no, it's won't be wrong.
Um arrive at four in the morningto go through the safety
briefing, and then through theday, tote bags and empty labs.
You learn stuff about the waythe airline really works, but
(45:00):
the camaraderie thing.
Because the the ground crew guysare now telling the pilots what
to do.
unknown (45:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (45:10):
The pilots don't know shit.
SPEAKER_00 (45:13):
Ready to level up your show?
At podcastvideos.com, we offerindustry-leading recording and
expert marketing to help yourshow reach more listeners.
From creation to distribution,we've got you covered.
Visit podcastvideos.com andelevate your podcast today.
SPEAKER_02 (45:28):
Yeah, exactly.
It equalized them instead ofalways being here.
SPEAKER_04 (45:34):
Yeah.
Hey, hey guys, we got we gottawrap it up.
It's time.
Oh my gosh.
Unfortunately, Bill, I mean, Iwould love to keep but I do
before we get, Bill, if youcould quickly tell our audience,
like you mentioned these fivemechanics and principles.
Uh how how do how do ourlisteners get more information
about the things you're talkingabout?
Like how do we how to how dothey rate you?
SPEAKER_03 (45:55):
Really good.
Um uh you've got my my emailaddress, uh, but I'll go you one
better.
Um any of your listeners whowould like to actually
experience this diagnostic.
So I'll send you the link.
unknown (46:13):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (46:15):
Done, no cost, and because the the reason I say it
that way is I found that I mean,I'm more than happy.
There's an ink article thatdescribes this and so forth and
so forth.
But I find that learning bydoing really works and is going
through this yourself as thoughyou were one of the research
(46:38):
participants because it's thesame tool.
Sure, yeah.
So I think that is probably themost effective way.
Um, but it dawns on me.
I'll I'll include, I'll fire offto you the um the ink article
that provides a couple pagesthat provides a little more
background and so forth.
SPEAKER_04 (46:57):
Great.
So we'll have that included inour descriptions on the show and
stuff of that nature.
So good.
Bill, it's been fantastictalking with you.
I could talk about this all day.
I love it.
Yeah, appreciate it so much.
Yeah, a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_03 (47:09):
The only thing I'd I'd raise is because I did
something similar to this.
I'm just starting to do the likethe podcast thing, which is
great.
I'm I I have a great time.
Um, but um I I mentioned onething, and that is the topic of
succession plan is somethingmost companies suck at.
(47:34):
And the same tool the puttingthe good management systems into
place is an awesome way to dosuccession planning because the
business becomes less and lessdependent upon you.
Sure.
That's right.
Um we'll tell you what, as areminder on that, there's a an
article, there's a differentarticle that I'll share with
(47:57):
you.
You may not include it with thisgroup, but um uh let me simply
say I've really enjoyed ourconversation.
SPEAKER_04 (48:05):
I'm here.
It's been fun talking with you,Bill.
Yeah, Bill, and join it, join inwith us when we do this exit.
This has been another episode ofBig Talk Small Business.
SPEAKER_01 (48:26):
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Big Talk
About Small Business.
If you have any questions orideas for upcoming shows, be
sure to head over to ourwebsite,
www.bigtalkaboutsmallbusiness.com,and click on the Ask the Host
button for the chance to haveyour questions answered on the
show.
Stay connected with us onLinkedIn at Big Talk About Small
(48:47):
Business, and be sure to headover to our website to read
articles, brought episodes, andask questions about upcoming
shows.
The thing that is a challenge with larger companies
is they're like dinosaurs, verybig bodies, really small brains.
Well, it's true.
Okay.
And they lumber about.
SPEAKER_02 (00:26):
Well, let's get started.
SPEAKER_04 (00:28):
We like to keep it spontaneous here on our show on
another episode of Big Talkabout small business.
SPEAKER_02 (00:40):
All right.
We gotta we do that every time,Bill.
We gotta keep it live.
SPEAKER_03 (00:48):
I feel like I should be going yee-haw or something
like that.
SPEAKER_04 (00:52):
You'll get another chance when we end it, Bill, so
get ready.
Like you'll you can this one,this one's for you to see.
The next one's for you to join.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00):
You you got, yeah, exactly.
So, Bill, we have Bill Fox withus today.
The guy is really, he's prettyfamous, truthfully.
He's done a lot of really coolstuff.
And he's worked with lots ofbusinesses, large and small.
And he's a big, big advocate ofopen book management, which is
where I sort of connected withBill.
SPEAKER_03 (01:21):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02 (01:21):
But um, so Bill, tell everybody a little bit
about yourself, though.
SPEAKER_03 (01:26):
And just a brief one was I'm an engineer by training,
worked at Briggs and Stratton,that's where I cut my teeth.
And I mentioned that becausethat is a lot of how I think.
Meaning, how do things work?
That's what I want to know.
(01:46):
Um, so headed off to businessschool because I realized I knew
a lot about manufacturing andengineering, not much about
marketing and finance.
Um and then uh some would saysold my soul to Bain and Company
for uh six years.
Uh it was the same six yearsthat all the kids were born, so
(02:07):
it was nice to be overpaid for aperiod of time.
Um, I I then worked for three orI'm sorry, for two three-year
stints at corporate America.
By the way, the smile is workingfor me.
Um and um I was a very lousy fitfor corporate America.
I understand that.
(02:28):
Yeah, well, you you you wouldgiven our our conversations,
Mark.
The the notion of things shouldmake sense, and I don't salute
necessarily really well.
And I never kiss rings.
And and that was that likereally didn't work.
(02:51):
Um, so uh, but the the good newsout of that, the two stints at
Teneco and at um Litton, TenecoVP Business Development.
Um, so I was the like strategyand deals guy.
And it was in that um in thatposition that I did a joint
(03:12):
venture with Jack Stack.
Okay.
And and Jack was just gettingrolling with his uh great game
of business, the the open bookstuff.
Um, and I saw what was going onthere, and I thought, this is so
much better than what we'redoing at JIKES.
(03:32):
It's not even close.
Uh it was, I would tell you thatthe joint venture we did, which
is megavolts, which was startersand alternators, continues to
stay.
The one thing I made sure wasthat SRC owned majority
interest.
Because I didn't know how long Iwas going to last the tentacle,
(03:54):
and God, I was certain we'd beable to screw it up if we if we
ran it.
SPEAKER_02 (04:00):
So SRC, for those who didn't know, that was Jack's
company, Springfield Rebuilders.
What was it?
Springfield Rebuilder.
SPEAKER_03 (04:08):
Springfield remanufacturing.
Right.
That's right.
Yeah, they were a they were agreat supplier to JIKs.
And the joint venture was, theydidn't do remanufacturing
starters and alternators.
We had a lousy supplier instarters alternators.
So we were distribution, theywere product.
(04:30):
Megavolt was the name of thecompany.
Uh, in any event, I wasn't smartenough to realize that it was a
lousy fit for corporate America,so I took a job at Lytton
Industrial Automation and provedthe point that I was really a
lousy fit for corporate America.
In any event, um, as I waspretty much certain that I
(04:54):
wanted to get the devil out ofthere, um, I ended up spending
three days on Table Rock Lakewith Jack Snack.
In theory, catching fish.
At least actually Jack sayshappened.
We drank so damn much beer thatI'm really not sure.
SPEAKER_02 (05:14):
But we're down here in our part of the country, man.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (05:17):
100% exactly right.
Table Rock Lake.
That's a cold.
Um, and and why you have to goin a bass boat at 60 miles an
hour from one part of the laketo another is a mystery to me.
SPEAKER_04 (05:32):
Okay, you gotta get there quick.
It makes it more fun.
Yeah, you gotta get there quick.
I mean, the fish are bottomtrying to beat the competition.
SPEAKER_03 (05:40):
And and I can tell you that um, given that I was in
fear for my life, I saw Godseveral times.
Okay, so that was cool.
SPEAKER_04 (05:49):
Yeah, that's another reason.
SPEAKER_03 (05:51):
Well, there you go.
In any event, um, at the end ofthose three days, we had
basically outlined the businesspremise for what came to be
known as great gain coaching.
And uh that was great.
The the thing, and it reallykind of leans into one dimension
that I think your audienceshould be sort of thinking about
(06:12):
is the whole open book, make theeconomics come alive, so the in
effect, all of your employeescan partner with you and drive
the business.
That was all fine.
At the same time, when thefinancial crisis hit in 2008, it
was all about revenue.
(06:33):
And I looked at my bag oftricks, I didn't have much on
revenue.
So that actually spawned a fairamount of thought with respect
to, hey, wait, wait a minute,how do we drive revenue?
Because all the clients I wewere working with, our revenue
was a function of their results.
(06:55):
So we were more than casuallyinterested in their results.
That started migrating mythinking about open book
management.
I'll call it kind of expandingit.
The other thing that was truewas with a lot of the clients
that I work with, we we weren'treally true to the faith in
(07:16):
terms of it's all about incomestatements and balance sheets.
So a really large company, as anexample that I work with, which
was a mining company, ZambianConsolidated Copper Mine,
literally in Zambia, Africa, andthat's it's its own sort of
story.
But with those folks, if youpulled out income statements and
(07:36):
balance sheets, they'd laugh youout of the place.
But if you talk to them about,well, the issue is generating
more cash, we're behind onorders to customers, throughput
is the order of the day, moretons per day, week, month.
That's what drives it.
Um and that's how we startedevolving to what we now call
(08:01):
economic engagement.
Call it open book managementwith more focus on the customers
and more focus on the operatingmetrics that drive the
financials rather than thefinancials per se.
SPEAKER_02 (08:17):
Um so we're talking about like leading indicators,
like marketing-related stuff,inquiries.
SPEAKER_03 (08:24):
Yeah, I'd say kind of that that's right, but kind
of much more kind of sort ofnuts and boltsy.
What do I mean by that?
Um, I'll go back to the uhfinancial crisis.
We we man, we tried everythingand anything because we needed
more revenue and we're we'refreaking dying.
(08:45):
And in those days, uh a guy Iknew from um my days at Bain and
Company, Fred Reicheld, was justcoming out with a net promoter
score.
So we tried that.
And it's like rate, yourcustomers rate you from one to
ten.
It it made no differencewhatsoever.
It was not helpful at all.
(09:06):
Okay, but we followed up withasking folks why?
Why are you rating us?
Whatever that made all thedifference in the world.
Because all of a sudden they'retalking to us about what's
really important to them.
(09:26):
Repeat, referral, revenue startsroaring.
So the the leading indicators,I'll call it conceptually, I
think that's right, but it'skind of more nuts and boltsy
than that.
In in in like each case.
Um in operations, um, ifthroughputs the issue, then
(09:49):
throughputs the issue, and ifthat's what's going to drive the
financials, but yeah, when I hadthe privilege of working with
Southwest Airlines, with them,it was cost per passenger mile.
And I mean, it permeates thewhole organization because
(10:10):
everybody's thinking about costper passenger mile.
Now, is that the thing thatdrives the financials?
Absolutely, but they didn'treally spend much time speaking
about income statements andbalance sheets.
The other thing that's advankind of advantageous, and
there's exceptions to that,quite frankly.
(10:32):
I'm thinking about um my buddiesat MSA Engineering, we
absolutely talk about financialstatements.
We we I mean, we did that.
So it's it's sort of selective.
Um when people understand whatthe hell they're talking about,
(10:53):
put another way, I was at avista meeting recently, and I
asked supposed one guy said,We're all over this.
I said, Really?
That's great.
What are you focused on rightnow?
And he said, EBITDA.
I said, really?
And he said, yes.
And he was, I was really quiteproud of it.
(11:15):
And I said, so EBITDA tends tomean I have no idea what you're
talking about.
I I think that's what EBITDAtypically means for most folks.
He said, no, but we trainedeverybody on EBITDA.
I said, great! When did you dothat?
He said, six months ago.
I said, super.
(11:38):
Do they use EBITDA on like adaily basis?
Well, well, not really.
How many of the folks do youthink could tell you what EBITDA
is today?
It's six months ago.
And then he got kind of adowncast look.
He is trying, he's moving in theright direction, okay?
(12:01):
But if you're not talking in thelanguage that people are
actually experiencing, theirday-to-day stuff.
I I just came out of a weeklymeeting with one week bath.
That I own 30% of the company.
They were client and became uman investment, which is kind of
(12:23):
its its own story.
What do they do?
Bath renovations?
Exactly right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And our our our unique featureis that because and Matt Plaskov
is a genius, he's a really greatguy.
Is he came to conclude that mostfolks remodel baths, which is
the most common remodel um inmost homes, they do kind of a
(12:49):
lousy job at it.
So if you think about what youmight do in applying lean
principles to how you remodel abath, that's what open book,
that's what um one-leaf bath is.
And so let me do itrhetorically.
With our um, our business is now70% repeat and referral.
(13:17):
So that's all aboutrelationships.
Who do you think has the tighterrelationship with our customers?
I give you three choices thesales guys, the designers, or
the leads on the crew thatactually install the bath.
Hundred percent.
(13:38):
You're exactly right, okay?
They know job one is to get areally happy customer that
inevitably means repeat andreferrals.
So it's that's what I mean aboutreally nuts and boltsy.
So, Rudy, as an example, is oneof the leads.
(13:59):
He's a character.
Rudy, are you gonna get anotherfive-star Yelp review?
Well, of course, Bill.
I mean, why do I ask?
Okay, Rudy, right, that's cool.
Why do you think you're gonnaget a get a five-star review?
Bill, I speak with the theowner, she's a 60-year-old
(14:24):
woman, every morning.
I know exactly what she'sthinking about and what she's
concerned about.
And she's had a couple of otherremodel jobs, they never had any
rapport like that.
So it's that that's what I meanabout kind of nuts and bolts-y
(14:46):
sorts of things.
It's it's not a lot of magic,but one of the things that I
think very few of small tomedium customers do well is
actually regularly speak withour customers about what they
value.
So they really know, not guess.
SPEAKER_02 (15:06):
Yeah.
Well, I think there's a lot ofreasons for that, Bill.
I mean, first off, we've got alot of business owners that
aren't engaged with theircustomers.
Okay, they're all sitting theregoing to vistage meetings who
are telling them, work on yourbusiness, not in your business,
which is the biggest crock ofbullshit I've ever heard in my
in my life.
(15:27):
Okay.
So that's one problem um, Ithink that that um exists out
there.
Um and and the second one isthere's no discipline, there's
no process, there's noconsistency that they apply
every single time.
I mean, you know, uh Eric and Iare involved in a company where
(15:49):
we've got this creativeconsultant, okay?
And I like the guy, and I thinkhe's talented, but I've told him
I want a weekly job statusreport on what you're working
on, what you got done this week,and what you're gonna do next
week.
And I cannot get the guy whosays, Abs, it's a great idea,
(16:11):
absolutely, we need to do that.
I have yet to get one of thesedamn things.
Okay.
And it blows my freaking mind.
So the communications, there'sno consistency.
And and you're, I mean, yeah, itis a pretty simple idea.
It's like talk with your clientsand customers.
(16:31):
But if I'm all, you know, goingto vistage meetings and and
listening to all these quoteexperts they drag in in front of
you as speakers, and I say thatas somebody who is a vistage
chair.
Okay, I know what it's allabout.
SPEAKER_04 (16:47):
I'll I'll add a all right.
I'll add a third one there.
What's that?
And Bill kind of hit on it whenwe talked about MPS scores,
EBITDA, these other things thatmajor like the big company, the
big, big companies have to dobecause there's massive
structures, shareholders, allkinds of freaking red tape,
blah, blah, blah.
(17:07):
My one of my big problems hasbeen was like that there's some
sort of perfect right way to doit.
And if you don't do it thatexact way, then you're not doing
it the right way.
So you get all this advice fromoutside or from bigger, and you
naturally look to biggercompanies because I'm like, oh,
well, they they obviously haveit figured out because they're
big, they're they're where Iwant.
Right, they're successful.
They're successful.
Right.
(17:27):
And I mean that that lie, thatself-lie has been one of my
biggest freaking bottlenecks forme to just drive the way I know
I should.
And Bill, what I love about whatyou were talking about earlier
is like, you know, who who isthe right if we're if our
business grows and our revenuegrows because there's it's a
relational business, who on theteam has the closest relation to
(17:50):
that?
Focus on that, put metricsbehind that.
So you're you're talking aboutwhat I love, I love that it's
even making me think.
You're talking about taking wideworlds of MPS scores, which I've
in I've implemented, didn't do adamn thing for me.
The only thing it did for mebefore was that my previous
company gave me a score that myacquisitional company was gonna
(18:12):
buy as that's what they wanted.
So I we we did it.
And we came back with highreviews.
Like they're like, this is thebest damn MPS score you've ever
seen in our life.
I'm like, yeah, because I knowwhat our customers care about.
You don't fail them, you callthem back.
Like it's very relational.
Like in I'm bleeding every dayfor 12 years, but I knew the
(18:32):
right way to handle thebusiness, but I didn't ever put
a method.
But what I like about Bill, itmakes me excited to think I can
have more confidence as anentrepreneur that's in touch
with my audience, zeroing downin a really small world.
Where's the one thing that likeI got to do to your point,
discipline every single day?
Yeah.
Where do I focus in on?
(18:53):
And that's kind of what you'retalking about.
SPEAKER_03 (18:55):
Yeah, and well, and uh as soon as you are really
partnering with your employeeson serving customers profitably,
by the way, just let me stopthere for just a second.
Partnering with the employees toserve customers profitably.
What company does that amountnot apply to?
SPEAKER_02 (19:16):
Uh at all.
SPEAKER_03 (19:17):
It applies to unfortunately the the the thing
that you were saying, though,about um larger companies.
The thing that is a challengewith larger companies is they're
like dinosaurs, very big bodies,really small brains.
(19:37):
Eventually, well it's true,okay, and they lumber about, and
it and it's it's like a hugeflywheel.
You can screw up on stuff rightand left.
SPEAKER_02 (19:51):
Oh, thank God.
You know, that was always my mygripe with good to great, which
a lot of people acted like wasthe greatest management Bible of
all time.
Give me all these companies thatare frigging 30, 40, 50 years
old that are billions of dollarsin revenue, okay, and and say
(20:12):
that what applies to themapplies to the rest of us out
here who are fighting for anexistence.
It's insane.
SPEAKER_04 (20:19):
It's a big corporation CEO book to breed.
Yeah, it's good for them.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (20:23):
Yeah.
As long as they don't mindmodeling themselves after
businesses that are out ofbusiness, it's great.
Circuit City and Fannie Mae andall that.
But yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (20:32):
I have a bittersweet relationship with Jim Collins.
Okay.
Okay.
Let me start with the sweetpart.
Before Jim published Good toGreat, he had given an advanced
copy to Jack.
(20:52):
Jack gave me a copy and said,Read this, tell me what you
think.
And I read through it and Isaid, Well, one thing for sure,
I see what he was talking aboutabout mechanisms, repeatable
processes that go beyond anygiven leader.
That's what great game ofbusiness is.
(21:15):
I mean, he didn't happen to saygreat game of business, but
that's what it, I mean that'swhat it meant.
He says, here's his phonenumber.
Call him up, tell him that.
I said, sure, I don't know Jimfrom Adam.
He said, no, just call him.
Okay, so so I called Jim, andJim answers the phone.
(21:37):
Well, he wasn't a big shit then,yeah.
Exactly correct.
Well said.
By the way, you're you'reheading to the bitter part,
okay?
But nonetheless, nonetheless, Isaid, um, I I hope it's okay.
Jack gave me a copy of yourbook.
I read it.
The the thing I really like wasmechanisms.
Because that's what we're doinghere.
(21:58):
That's what Great Game ofBusiness is.
He says, that's what I'm tellingStack.
I said, you two need to gettogether.
I'm just like a middleman here.
Okay.
So that was a happy discussion.
Um, when Good to Great and Builtto Last had were out for quite
some period of time.
(22:20):
I did the following.
I looked at the 18 companies and11 companies that it was that
they were based on.
And I looked at, because it wasall about they were chosen as a
function of their stockperformance in the prior 20
years, right?
That was that was why they werechosen.
So I looked at their stockperformance in the 20 years
(22:42):
after the book was published.
Yeah, it probably sucked formost of them, didn't it?
Yeah, that um several of themhad gone bankrupt.
Okay, Circuit City was anexample of that.
Right.
As a group, they substantiallyunderperformed the SP 500.
So I I wrote an article that Isent to Jim, and the article was
(23:07):
why the Built the Last companiesdidn't last.
I bet he loved that.
Well, and I said this isn't thearticle.
Jim, I should not be writingthis article.
You should be writing thisarticle.
SPEAKER_02 (23:20):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (23:21):
And um, by the way, I ended up speaking to his chief
of staff.
Never spoke with Jim.
He was, I forget they had an oh,in monk mode.
He was thinking about the nextbook.
He was in monk mode, I think.
Oh my god.
Um don't disturb him.
SPEAKER_02 (23:42):
I'm sorry.
I said, don't disturb him whenhe's in monk mode.
SPEAKER_03 (23:46):
Well, I I think he he, in fact, was disturbed, and
my analysis had suggested, infact, that was the case.
Okay, but that that reallydidn't help.
So the funny thing, I I likemechanisms.
I think big hairy audaciousgoals is bullshit.
Um, and the reason I say that istake um, what was the name of
(24:08):
the the company that um it wasgonna revolutionize the office
space starting in New York?
Oh yeah.
Uh WeWork.
We work.
We work, yeah.
Okay.
We work had a big, hairy,audacious goal.
I don't think it was the goalwas to burn through four billion
dollars of SoftBank's money.
(24:29):
I'm not, I don't really thinkthat was the goal.
That was what they achieved.
Okay, but so if you say big,hairy, audacious goal with folks
that were really successful, bydefinition, you're right.
But it's not predictive.
Okay.
Um there are other aspects, andthen there are various things
(24:51):
that people like the hedgehogand all that kind of crap.
Um I'm Yeah, get the rightpeople on the bus and all that.
But level and I've seen if youget the wrong people, that's
bad.
But like, I don't think I need abook to tell me that.
I mean, well, they pretty muchgot that one.
SPEAKER_02 (25:09):
It's the problem I the biggest problem I had is the
whole level five leadershipconcept, especially when it
applies to smaller companies,okay.
We're not all ready for levelfive leadership, okay?
SPEAKER_03 (25:22):
Well, and and and frankly, the notion that it was
research-based is nonsense.
Yeah, exactly.
And that the the research that Iended up doing subsequently is
what research is about.
You you look for data to test apremise.
(25:44):
The premise I was looking to dowas say good to great are built
to last.
They were recipes for successgoing forward.
Let's see if that's true.
No, it's not true.
Okay, oh, geez.
The the and I'm kind of anal onthat because um, as as you know,
Marvin, um I ended up doingyears of research with Harvard
(26:09):
Business School.
I I I, by the way, can tell youfirsthand what purgatory is
like.
Because I've been there.
It's slow, it costs money, andyou have no idea what the
outcome is going to be.
I mean, that's just that'sthat's what research is.
(26:30):
The thing that was kind ofinteresting, though, is the
research that we did on, let'scall it defining.
Are you guys okay?
SPEAKER_02 (26:41):
Yeah, yeah, sorry, guys.
SPEAKER_03 (26:43):
Mark's breaking my mic fell off.
SPEAKER_04 (26:47):
I'll do it.
SPEAKER_03 (26:48):
Eric, do you get hazard pay working with Mark?
SPEAKER_04 (26:51):
I don't, I don't, uh I feel very, very vulnerable.
SPEAKER_02 (26:56):
We didn't mean to interrupt your story.
SPEAKER_04 (26:58):
Anyway, Mark can bankrupt me at any moment.
SPEAKER_02 (27:00):
Okay.
Well, I do like to break off thecamera that's right against the
door opening.
Yeah, yeah, you do do that.
That has been a problem.
But anyway, um, Bill, Bill, goback.
So Harvard Business Schoolresearch, though.
SPEAKER_03 (27:15):
Yeah, the the thing that was good about it, um I had
a bittersweet relationship witha lot of good folks, I guess,
but um, with a HBS professor whoI was introduced by the dean.
I was my both of my boys went toHarvard Business School also.
So I spoke with Dean Norria, whoI think is a really great guy,
(27:38):
um, Indian by descent, veryhumble by nature.
You would never pick him out asnow the retired um dean of
Harvard Business School.
In any event, um, he connectedme with a professor, so I had
him uh the professor visit avariety of folks I had worked
with.
And um, to his credit, he askedwhat was a life-changing
(28:03):
question.
He said, Bill, what's your endgoal?
I said, Oh, that's that's easy.
I want to change the world.
He said, Yeah, by that time, hewas used to my Midwest kind of
comments, right?
He said, What do you mean?
I said, business is a huge forcefor good.
(28:25):
Yet we got folks talking aboutsocialism as the way to go.
And most folks, if you ask, isbusiness evil or good, they will
say evil.
That's the average.
Well, because that's that's howit's portrayed in pop culture.
Well, exactly right.
Uh, although albeit at times, Imean, men are laid off 10% of
(28:48):
their workforce earlier thisweek.
Well, that's business.
The the upshot is my my premisewas business is this huge force
for good.
If business practiced well, itin fact is a force for good.
And then he said something thatreally screwed up my life.
(29:11):
He said, Bill, Galileo changedthe world.
He didn't do it with a winningsmile, he didn't do it with a
story, didn't do it with ananecdote, he had researched.
I said, shit, does that mean Ihave to do research?
He said, only if you're seriousabout changing the world.
(29:34):
I couldn't figure out anyrational way out of it.
So that's why I literally spentthree years, a little plus of
that.
And but the the details are kindof tough for a um a setting sort
of like this.
But suffice it to say that whatwe did was define in what ended
(29:54):
up being five drivers, whatfundamentally running a business
well is.
There are three questions eachthat measured like, how well are
you doing on this driver object?
And they really measuringmechanisms.
(30:16):
That's what we were doing.
So one of the one of thequestions on customer engagement
was do you regularly reach outto your customers and get input
on what they value?
Always, sometimes, never.
And it's so it's not, by theway, the you know, how employees
(30:41):
feel.
That's not what we're askingabout.
We're asking about managementsystems mechanisms again to use
the Jim Collins thing.
Well, the bottom line is afterwe did eight waves of 50 to 150
companies per wave, and we sawevery damn time that if you were
(31:04):
top quartile, you had double theprofit growth of the average,
and the average had double theprofit growth of the bottom
quartile.
When you see that once, it'sinteresting.
When you see it eight times,it's kind of statistically
significant.
(31:25):
And and that's the um uh thatthat's was a a a real insight um
why Harvard Business Reviewwould refuse to publish it after
we'd already published fiveother articles is a mystery to
me.
SPEAKER_02 (31:44):
I took that up to the editor-in-chief.
And you've been in HBR a lot, soit's not like you're breaking.
SPEAKER_03 (31:51):
Oh, yeah, it wasn't like I was unknown.
Right.
Yeah, we I we we've written fivearticles.
I I I having had severalconversations with the folks, I
I I guess I conclude that thereare that's one of the reasons
I'm enjoying this on the Sunday.
I'm canceled in a variety ofsettings.
(32:13):
And you don't even know you'recanceled.
I mean, it's not like a flaggoes up.
Okay, you you just all of asudden, like emails don't get
responded to.
SPEAKER_02 (32:28):
Well, are you too much of a shit disturber?
Is that what happened?
SPEAKER_03 (32:35):
Um let's let's put it this way.
I'm for sure a jerk.
Okay, no question about it.
Hands down, if my wife Joy of 45years came in, by the way, she
would first say 46 is noguarantee.
Okay, that's the first thing shewould say.
Um, but if she heard me say I'ma jerk, she'd go, yeah, okay, I
(32:59):
don't know what Elsie said, butthat's a fact.
Okay, that's a I'm I'm awell-intended jerk, but but a
jerk nonetheless, I hatebullshit.
Yeah.
I'm with you.
And and I I throw the flag and Igo, like, that's bullshit.
And um, there's a lot of folksin various um settings that
(33:23):
really don't like that at all.
Um, uh I'll give you an example.
Um, the professor connected mewith a guy by the name of Pete
Savros.
Pete is the um a very senior KKRum partner, and Pete was just
starting what he calls ownershipworks, which is to say they put
(33:46):
three percent of the stockdistributed to the employees,
and that's gonna like createsome sort of magic.
SPEAKER_02 (33:58):
Yeah, well, it's just like the whole Aesop
philosophy, which I think youand I have talked about in the
PR.
SPEAKER_03 (34:04):
It is it is it's I mean, in a way it's worse.
And well, let me let me tell youwhat I mean by that.
If a hundred percent ownershipof stock does not affect
employees' behavior, and that'sreally well documented.
I mean, there's a it's not likeup for discussion, then what's
(34:27):
the likelihood that 3% of stock?
I mean, you know, it's likewho's getting who?
So when he he very proudlyexplained that to me, and I
said, that is such a nice badidea, and the professor nearly
had a coronary, and what do youmean by that?
(34:50):
I said, Well, look, I I don'thave an acts to grind in this.
I'm just saying that we alreadyknow that 100% ownership by
employees does not affect theirbehavior.
It's the mechanisms that affectthe behavior, it's the way in
which they're participating inthe company.
(35:11):
That's what affects theirbehavior.
So if we know that you're notgoing to get any movement in
performance, but it's reallynice.
I'm guessing nobody turned downthe stock.
It's so true.
Well, yeah, and and um, by theway, does Pete hate me?
(35:34):
Yes, yes, he he hates me.
It by the way, it got evenworse.
Um, he wrote an article abouthow uh giving employees equity
was a bit like this game changerin capitalism, and it was in
fortune.
And I wrote an article a monthlater that said, well, maybe,
you know, if you get the folksengaged in the business.
(35:57):
Um so uh and and one of thethings that's hard for an
individual like Pete is how manyfolks do you think tell Pete
you're full of shit?
Oh, exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (36:12):
He's a big KKR partner, no way.
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_03 (36:16):
Okay, you know, so it's true.
That's that's always a bit of aproblem.
That's why I've told my wifethis a million times, but it's
really true.
So if this, by the way, stays inour, you know, doesn't get
edited out, that'd be great.
Um I was gonna say joint kicksme in the ass like daily.
(36:42):
I mean, and I'm not talkingabout like once a day.
SPEAKER_02 (36:47):
I can't say that I can't identify with that, Bill.
And and uh Eric knows my wife.
We've all worked together in thesame room before, so he knows
it's probably true.
SPEAKER_04 (36:58):
Oh yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (36:59):
I I get it.
SPEAKER_03 (37:00):
Well, but um even biblically, um think about this
for a second.
Saint Paul, he's actuallyspeaking to God, right?
Road to Damascus, most prolificof all of the apostles, no one
(37:22):
else is close, but they talkabout a thorn in his side.
They don't ever describe any anydetails about it, but there's a
thorn in his side.
Why did God give him a thorn inthe side?
My answer is to make sure heunderstands he's human.
SPEAKER_04 (37:43):
Yeah, yeah.
We we all we all need a yeah,that that's a problem if you
have somebody that everyone'safraid to say something to, and
then they I mean it's not evengood for them, it's good for no
one.
Why do you do that?
SPEAKER_03 (37:56):
Eric, I couldn't agree more, but uh it it's also
not something that you regularlyseek what you need.
Yeah, right?
I mean, I assure you, it's onlyJoanne and I it'll be 46 uh this
(38:16):
June that we'll be years thatwe'll be married.
For the first like 20 years, shewould say something and it would
just bother the hell out of me.
Now she says stuff, and I gothank you.
(38:39):
I get you.
And and and and and the realsecret is meaning but meaning it
when you say thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (38:46):
No, I I get that.
I'm in the same boat.
I I can identify with that.
But I do think that that thathappens that that isolation,
because in many cases thehigh-level people don't get out
on the floor and they don't dothe actual work of the business
alongside the workers and get,you know, they're they isolate
(39:08):
themselves, they're they've gotspecial parking places, they've
got a bigger office, they onlygo out to eat with each other,
okay?
They create all the they've gotthese gatekeepers that they're
answering their freaking phone.
SPEAKER_04 (39:21):
Executive assistants, okay.
SPEAKER_02 (39:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (39:24):
Executive assistant agents now, like it, yeah, they
isolate themselves.
Exactly.
I have the so that that I agree,that is a big problem.
I know.
I have another problem.
My problem is I can't get thedamn truth from people.
Yeah.
Because of what you were talkingabout a second ago, Bill, like
my staff may not want to tell methe truth about what's going on.
SPEAKER_03 (39:43):
It's a it's a really great point, Eric.
But part and part of what I'msaying is if it's very clear
that we all have the same goal,yeah.
At the end of the day, ourchecks are signed by our
customers.
SPEAKER_04 (39:58):
That's a yes.
Amen to that.
Sure.
Damon, I say that all the time.
Yep.
SPEAKER_03 (40:02):
But well, and the the other thing that would tell
you is there are there arecompanies that get this and then
they perform like crazy well.
I'm pleased to tell you, uh, myson, uh, my oldest son, is
working at Taco Bell.
Okay.
Do you know, and he's part ofthe senior management team?
(40:23):
Okay.
Do you know what Taco Bell ispart of the senior management
team?
First of all, when he came onboard, he had to spend 15
eight-hour sessions and allkinds of different franchisees
working eight-hour shifts rightnext to the folks.
(40:49):
Well, can you imagine all thegreat stuff that that does?
Absolutely.
There's a reason that Taco Bellis the star of the Young Brands
group.
SPEAKER_02 (41:00):
Sure.
You know, Home Depot does thattoo.
My friend, he was the seniorvice president and controller
for Home Depot.
And they made all of theirexecutives go out and work in
stores for a week at a time.
SPEAKER_03 (41:15):
It's it's I think it's brilliant.
The the one that I reallyenjoyed when I was working, I
mean, I was working at SouthwestAirlines 20 years ago when
Southwest Airlines was SouthwestAirlines.
I'm not too sure who SouthwestAirlines is today.
And and by the way, I invested,it was the only stock that Joy
(41:37):
and I invested in come on abusiness school.
We didn't have very much money.
And we but we invested inSouthwest, because I I we I did
uh case on it.
I thought this is like, this islike too good.
I want to be part of this, andit it'd go up and split, go up
and split.
Here's the story.
I'm working with the pilotsbecause I found with real large
(42:00):
companies you got to work withall the small groups, not
corporate.
So I ended up working with thepilots of the Orlando branch,
and they were they it was great,and we were just like churning
out additional money.
It was, I mean, it was so muchfun, it was ridiculous.
And somebody says, this is a lotlike what do they call it?
(42:27):
I'm trying to remember the exactname.
Cutting edge.
This is a lot like cutting edge.
I said, What the hell is cuttingedge?
He says, Well, about 20 yearsago, one of the pilots, they
they when they when they land,they always stay at the same
hotel.
Okay, they get the good ratesand you know that kind of stuff,
(42:49):
right?
Uh, you know, well, at leastwhen they're not at their base.
And um they were having adiscussion at the bar, and one
of the pilots said, you knowwhat the problem with us?
The other pilot says, What'sthat?
He says, We're starting to getuppity.
We're starting to get like justlike the competition.
You know, we're just full of it.
(43:10):
And the pilots are the worst.
And somebody else says, you knowwhat we ought to do?
What's that?
We should get like 20 of us.
And for a day, every once in awhile, just descend on a
(43:31):
particular terminal and we'll dothe ground cruise work for a
day.
Because you know, that's theshit job, right?
That's like emptying the layoutsand all that stuff.
Anyway, so they did it.
There was no corporate supportfor this.
The pilots did it all on theirown.
I said, that is so great.
(43:52):
He said, Yeah, we actually havea uh cutting edge event
scheduled for Orlando.
Orlando was where I was workingwith them.
I said, has any nonpilent,non-Southwest employee ever
participated in cutting edge?
And the guy, Kent, I won't givehim the last name because you
(44:13):
know it's a long time ago, but Istill think he's safe.
He says, Um, I see exactly whereyou're going though.
And look, if we go throughchannels, we'll never get this
approved.
So we're not going to go throughchannels.
I said, Well, I mean, let's beclear about this.
I don't look good in orange.
I don't I don't want to bearrested.
(44:33):
No, no, it's won't be wrong.
Um arrive at four in the morningto go through the safety
briefing, and then through theday, tote bags and empty labs.
You learn stuff about the waythe airline really works, but
(45:00):
the camaraderie thing.
Because the the ground crew guysare now telling the pilots what
to do.
unknown (45:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (45:10):
The pilots don't know shit.
SPEAKER_00 (45:13):
Ready to level up your show?
At podcastvideos.com, we offerindustry-leading recording and
expert marketing to help yourshow reach more listeners.
From creation to distribution,we've got you covered.
Visit podcastvideos.com andelevate your podcast today.
SPEAKER_02 (45:28):
Yeah, exactly.
It equalized them instead ofalways being here.
SPEAKER_04 (45:34):
Yeah.
Hey, hey guys, we got we gottawrap it up.
It's time.
Oh my gosh.
Unfortunately, Bill, I mean, Iwould love to keep but I do
before we get, Bill, if youcould quickly tell our audience,
like you mentioned these fivemechanics and principles.
Uh how how do how do ourlisteners get more information
about the things you're talkingabout?
Like how do we how to how dothey rate you?
SPEAKER_03 (45:55):
Really good.
Um uh you've got my my emailaddress, uh, but I'll go you one
better.
Um any of your listeners whowould like to actually
experience this diagnostic.
So I'll send you the link.
unknown (46:13):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (46:15):
Done, no cost, and because the the reason I say it
that way is I found that I mean,I'm more than happy.
There's an ink article thatdescribes this and so forth and
so forth.
But I find that learning bydoing really works and is going
through this yourself as thoughyou were one of the research
(46:38):
participants because it's thesame tool.
Sure, yeah.
So I think that is probably themost effective way.
Um, but it dawns on me.
I'll I'll include, I'll fire offto you the um the ink article
that provides a couple pagesthat provides a little more
background and so forth.
SPEAKER_04 (46:57):
Great.
So we'll have that included inour descriptions on the show and
stuff of that nature.
So good.
Bill, it's been fantastictalking with you.
I could talk about this all day.
I love it.
Yeah, appreciate it so much.
Yeah, a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_03 (47:09):
The only thing I'd I'd raise is because I did
something similar to this.
I'm just starting to do the likethe podcast thing, which is
great.
I'm I I have a great time.
Um, but um I I mentioned onething, and that is the topic of
succession plan is somethingmost companies suck at.
(47:34):
And the same tool the puttingthe good management systems into
place is an awesome way to dosuccession planning because the
business becomes less and lessdependent upon you.
Sure.
That's right.
Um we'll tell you what, as areminder on that, there's a an
article, there's a differentarticle that I'll share with
(47:57):
you.
You may not include it with thisgroup, but um uh let me simply
say I've really enjoyed ourconversation.
SPEAKER_04 (48:05):
I'm here.
It's been fun talking with you,Bill.
Yeah, Bill, and join it, join inwith us when we do this exit.
This has been another episode ofBig Talk Small Business.
SPEAKER_01 (48:26):
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Big Talk
About Small Business.
If you have any questions orideas for upcoming shows, be
sure to head over to ourwebsite,
www.bigtalkaboutsmallbusiness.com,and click on the Ask the Host
button for the chance to haveyour questions answered on the
show.
Stay connected with us onLinkedIn at Big Talk About Small
(48:47):
Business, and be sure to headover to our website to read
articles, brought episodes, andask questions about upcoming
shows.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.