March 18, 2026 • 44 mins
Most small businesses think growth comes from squeezing margins. We’ve learned the opposite can be true: lower prices, ship more, and let volume create the learning, leverage, and momentum that higher prices can’t. That idea kicks off a wide-ranging conversation about building a modern podcast and video production engine that prioritizes speed, scale, and customer value.
We talk through what actually differentiates a serious production studio from “anyone with a microphone” and why recording is only the beginning. The real work is the messy middle: editing, cutting clips, formatting for every platform, staying current as algorithms change, and keeping a consistent cadence. We get into why frequency beats perfection in marketing, why businesses still resist it, and how original human content performs better as AI-generated content floods the internet. When everything starts to look synthetic, authenticity becomes the advantage.
From there we zoom out into leadership: how to hire for curiosity, keep bureaucracy from creeping in, and build a culture that learns fast. We unpack the logic of starting service-based to discover the real problems, then automating the repeatable parts with AI and eventually offering hybrid SaaS. Along the way, we hit decision-making under uncertainty, avoiding perfection paralysis, and why a little hands-on focus outside work can sharpen intuition inside work.
If you want practical insights on podcast marketing, content production systems, and building a customer-obsessed small business, hit play. Subscribe, share this with a business owner who needs to publish more, and leave a review with the one idea you’re going to act on this week.
Subscribe and tune in for new episodes of Big Talk About Small Business with Mark Zweig and Eric Howerton. Each week we focus on practical insights and real-world strategies to grow your business!
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
We need to lower our prices, is what we need to do.
Like, and I would rather havemore customers at lower prices
because the customer needs lowerprices and they need to be able
to distribute more content.
And so if we raise our prices,then we're basically not
allowing the customer to havemore value in what we're doing.
SPEAKER_03 (00:24):
Anyway, this has been another episode, or this is
and will be another episode ofbig talk about small businesses.
SPEAKER_02 (00:35):
Okay.
Yeah.
So that's part, that's that'sour plan for um we've we've
tapped into some some reallypretty large organizations that
have you know a lot of depth forcontent that they need to be
promoting.
Uh that's pretty exciting for usto kind of scale out as well.
So big opportunities.
SPEAKER_03 (00:56):
So yeah, it seems, you know, when you first told me
about this concept, you Ithought, oh, there's a lot of
places like this out there.
Yeah.
But you've really got acompletely different twist on
it.
Well, I mean, obviously, onething is you've invested to
build a real facility here andhave it staffed with people who
(01:16):
actually know what they'redoing.
It's always interesting to mewhen I'm in your lobby.
It's like a who's who of thelocal business community.
I mean, yeah, it's really cool.
I see so many people here.
It's always a it's it's like,let's go to the party.
We got a podcast videos.
Everybody's there, you know?
SPEAKER_02 (01:33):
That is cool.
When the studio starts gettingbusy, you know, and there's
multiple shows going on.
I mean, you do get to see a lotof buck into a lot of folks, you
know, influential folks andbusiness leaders that are in
here doing their shows, andthat's always a good time.
SPEAKER_03 (01:46):
That is cool.
So, how do you differentiatethough from I mean, aside from
the fact that you've spent moremoney and to hire the people and
build the infrastructure thatyou have, what else is really
different about what you'redoing here?
SPEAKER_02 (01:59):
Uh, everything that we're doing is about speed and
scale.
You know, it's about drivingcosts low for the for the cost
customer.
Um, I mean, we definitely employthe theory of like, you know, if
we can use any kind ofautomation in our process, we
employ that so that way we canpass that savings on to the
customer.
I mean, our big get is that youcan basically do four episodes
(02:21):
per month, you know, it's forabout twelve hundred, thirteen
hundred dollars.
I mean, that's sixty-minutevideos shot and edited.
Now, distribution costs extra.
You know, you have all theseancillary services that you can
do on top of it, but just that,just the recording production
aspect, we've got it nailed downpretty good.
(02:42):
Um, then I think the biggestvalue is, I mean, really, I
always say our best client issomebody that's already tried to
do it because I mean, evenindividual influencers and
creators like, you know, to dothe distribution, to cut down
the videos, to create thesnippets.
SPEAKER_03 (02:56):
Oh, you spend a lot of time.
SPEAKER_02 (02:58):
It's it's just an enormous amount of work that no
it's production work that nobodywants to do, you know.
Or you have one person helps youand then they flake out.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, people get vulnerable,you know.
SPEAKER_03 (03:10):
You're you're out of business, basically.
SPEAKER_02 (03:12):
Yeah, and and it's just it's I mean, and then not
to mention as soon as you learnor figure something out,
especially in the social mediafront, algorithms change, you
know, sure recommend orrequirements change.
Yeah, it's a never-ending,growing process.
So we're we're constantly, Imean, our team is constantly at
bat at trying to figure outwell, you're in there with all
(03:32):
these different situations andcompanies.
SPEAKER_03 (03:34):
So you you're you're in it daily and you see what's
going on.
Oh, yeah, 100%.
It's got to be valuable.
SPEAKER_02 (03:39):
Just digging in the weeds, you're getting in the
clients.
It's like being good at likeinsurance or something.
Yeah.
Like it's just so messy inthere.
Right.
Like, what the hell doeseverything mean?
And that's our goal is to figureit out so that way we can just,
you know, provide that turnkeyservice and let the businesses
do what they do really well.
If they're manufacturingproducts or they're teaching
classes or whatever it is,doesn't matter.
(03:59):
You know, let us do thisridiculous thing.
You know, it's the same, youknow, I I like to liken it to
the same analogy of when youknow cameras became on people's
phones and or digital camerascame out, everybody became a
professional photographer justbecause there was a camera
available.
SPEAKER_03 (04:17):
Yeah, well, it's just like when when desktop
publishing came out, everybodywas a graphic designer.
Oh, yeah, but they weren't.
But they weren't, yeah.
A tool.
But it's like I give you arifle, you're automatically not
a sharpshooter.
SPEAKER_02 (04:29):
Yeah, yeah.
And so like just because you canbuy uh, you know, a nice
microphone in a in the camera.
Yeah, I guess.
Yeah, that's that's that's theeasy part.
And then, or it's kind of easy,it's assumingly easy, but you
know, setup, you know, how youturnkey it, like how you know
it's all about reduction oftime, you know, for if you did
do your own thing, like how doyou expedite the time?
(04:50):
Because it was you'd spend anhour and a half getting things
ready.
SPEAKER_03 (04:53):
It's kind of like having a trainer at a gym, too.
Yeah, it's like you'll go to thegym if the trainer's there and
it's scheduled.
That's fair.
You know, so here you've got thesame thing, the company that's
scheduled, you got to show up,you're gonna go there and you're
gonna do your thing.
SPEAKER_02 (05:06):
Well, and because I think it probably helps a lot of
people.
Well, it does because I thinkthat you know, frequency and
repetition is key in any kind ofmedia.
You know, like if you know, backin the day they you know they
would have a weekly newspaper,then they turn it into daily.
Well, they didn't do dailybecause it's it was a good idea.
They did it because peoplewanted more information on a
(05:26):
daily basis to stay current.
And that's the same thing thatif you're doing video shows as a
C level to your team, they wantmore frequent communication from
them.
Oh, I'm a big believer in that,you know, from marketing
standpoint.
It's marketing.
I mean, just even just like hellhell, even like not take the
human out of the equation, therobots, the algorithms want more
frequent content too.
(05:47):
Everybody wants new freshinformation.
Yeah, we can do that now.
It's just do companies actuallysee the light in that?
That's the that's the gap thatwe're fighting all the time.
So sales in, you know, on thego-to-market, you know, talking
about business.
I mean, you know, like if youare in a more of an innovative
type business, like you I thinkit's I've deceived myself about
(06:08):
100% of the time since I've beenin business that, oh, I see
this.
This is obvious.
Look at this, we can do this.
And then you go to clients andthey're like, I don't understand
even what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_03 (06:17):
Amen.
SPEAKER_02 (06:18):
And then you talk to them, then they go out and they
buy their own microphones andvideo cameras, and then they
staff somebody, you know, for$10,000 you know a month trying
to do the same thing, and theoutput's just as slow because
everybody gets qualitative aboutit instead of thinking about
that frequency, you know.
SPEAKER_03 (06:33):
Oh man, that's so true.
I mean, it's just I fought thatin marketing for the client, the
architecture and engineeringfirms I work with for years.
Yeah.
We'd rather have one good thingthan than 10 frequent.
I'm like, do you understandanything about marketing?
Okay.
We want one good quarterlynewsletter.
I'm like, no, no, let's dividethat up.
Yeah, let's send that stuff outevery week.
(06:54):
Absolutely.
We're gonna have a lot moreimpact.
SPEAKER_02 (06:56):
Human beings want the most recent current
information.
They don't want you know, Imean, nobody wants to.
People don't understand that.
They don't we know that.
Yeah, we know that, but I mean,they don't get it.
No, they don't.
I mean, and then and then and atthe end of the day, you like no,
you love that analogy or thatthat cliche.
Yeah, what about the beginningof the next step?
Yeah, the cliche.
Yeah.
(07:17):
Yeah, the cliche.
Um, you know, to be able to feedthe human listener, but also
just as importantly in today'stime, that that algorithm, that
this fresh, new created contentis really a big deal.
And speaking of, you know, Iasked get get asked the question
a lot about the AI, AI avatars,AI content, all that type of
(07:38):
stuff.
I mean, you know, as as morecontent is infused into social
or whatever platforms, likepeople are still gonna want to
hear from people.
And actually, the algorithms.
I mean, they actually wantsomething that's real.
Yeah, they do.
Yeah, they want something real,and the algorithms want
something that's real too.
Like, and so a lot of this slopthat goes out there.
(07:59):
I mean, the algorithm, you know,AI is smart enough to read AI.
You know, I mean, it knows whatit's seeing.
And so, but our shows that we dowhen we put this content out,
it's brand new, it's fresh, it'snot anywhere else in the in the
uh you know cyberspace.
Yes, it's got new guests, newtopics, all this stuff.
I mean, we're just basically thealgorithms are falling in love
with what we're doing.
(08:19):
Love it.
And and as more slop comes intothe equation, we're actually
rising up because of it.
SPEAKER_03 (08:25):
I mean, look at those.
I I don't know whether the theawards show I saw several months
ago on TV, they now have awardsfor podcasts.
You know, when they're givingout awards for various movies
and stuff, it's now a new formof media.
SPEAKER_02 (08:39):
Oh, it 100% is.
Actually, I just read a stat.
I I mean, I can't quote off thetop of my head, but I saw it
where podcasting has nowsuperseded radio in the amount
of listeners.
That's wild, isn't it?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (08:51):
I mean, it's like And you get exactly what you
want with a podcast.
That's the thing.
You you know, with a radio, likeyou you got to sit there and
listen to a lot of stuff youdon't want just to get to the
little bit that maybe you do.
SPEAKER_02 (09:05):
Well, the technology just allowed technology and
platforms have just allowed theyou know, the rifle shooting
scenario versus the shotgun ofthe radio, you know.
Yeah, exactly.
It was much more expensive, andyou had to be broad and you had
more people, and that was theonly source of avenue or channel
to get your information soeverybody would come to it.
But you know, my my big uhstatement has always been, you
know, in the past there's been ahundred media outlets with
(09:27):
millions of listeners apiece.
Now there's a million outletswith a hundred listeners apiece.
Yeah.
That's so everything's justgetting very way to look at
every yeah.
So it's exciting business.
I mean, it's challenging though.
I mean, it's like any business.
I mean, there's just so muchchange.
You know, the uh, you know, Ithink that like you know, that
plus other businesses that aregoing on right now, like the
(09:48):
just the the rapid scale of AI,the can you know, the continuous
you know, inventions oftechnology, to, you know, the
demands that our customers arehave facing, to the budget
constraints, I mean, all thattype of stuff.
I mean, it's pretty it's prettychallenging to you know to build
a business in this realm.
I think only only by that I meanchallenging mentally for the
(10:09):
team.
Sure.
The team has to they have tocome in the doors with a desire
to learn and grow every singleday.
Sure.
And that's something I thinkthat I've never seen at a sk at
at such an intensity level in myyears of business.
Uh, and how do you, you know,how do you encourage that?
How do you reward that?
How do you, you know, you know,try to prevent the opposite of
(10:33):
that, the drag?
Like, I mean, you just therecan't be one person on the team
dragging.
Sure.
There simply cannot be.
And and uh, I mean, it requiresa lot of the leader to continue
to push.
SPEAKER_03 (10:45):
Yeah, and you can't let the bureaucrats take over as
you get larger.
And and they and you bring in,quote, professionals to handle
various aspects of the businessbecause they can bureaucratize
it so fast.
They can and it kills it.
SPEAKER_02 (10:59):
You know, and one of my one of my I mean, I guess my
attempts or or exercises forthis business has been, you
know, since day one, we didn'treally hire any experts.
You know, I hired folks that arenewer in their career that have
this curiosity to learn and thento dig in and get things done,
(11:19):
right?
Like, I mean, if you don't know,you can learn and you can figure
it out.
Yep.
Um, and I'm only saying thatlike from the standpoint of we
do need, we're at a position nowas the company's growing, you
know, to bring on a little bitmore senior, experienced,
business type people that have alittle bit more foresight,
maybe, or they can see a littlebit further down the road, you
(11:40):
know, and how do you startbuilding those things?
Um, but if I would have hiredthe professionals in the
beginning with the experience, Imean, it would have been
immediate bureaucracy.
Yeah, there would have been, youknow, nobody would want to
actually get their hands dirty.
That's the hardest thing to do.
You know, they're all used tohaving other people working for
them.
And you can't do that in a in astartup innovative business.
(12:02):
I mean, yes, like I have to getmy hands dirty.
SPEAKER_03 (12:05):
You gotta do.
I gotta be a doer.
SPEAKER_02 (12:07):
I mean, uh, you know, yeah, the advent of AI,
like, I mean, it's forced me to,I mean, like, I have to use it.
I have to be a practitioner.
I have to I have to understand,you know, what the hell Gemini
Enterprise is, and then I haveto understand what pro is.
And that, you know, I mean, it'sjust this and then how to
structure those things so thateverybody can get access.
I mean, it's it's a crazy.
Well, you have gotten smarterthe older you got.
SPEAKER_03 (12:28):
I mean, it's just you just keep getting smarter
and smarter.
It blows me away.
I just keep learning, you know.
Just keep just keep divingdiving in.
But but let's just take a stepback for a minute.
Well, well, we, you know, soyou've got this business here,
and and you know, you've reallystuck it out to where you got to
a critical, you know, it startedas a hobby for you, if I recall.
(12:49):
I mean, you had that studio overthere, the old studio.
Yeah.
It was a place you went andplayed music and stuff.
Yeah.
And then the next thing youknow, you're doing podcasting
out of there.
And then the next thing youknow, you know, you're building
out one that's got all themultiple studios and everything.
But so I know you have a passionfor this stuff personally,
(13:09):
right?
But look, you're a guy thatbuilt a software company that
had a really successful exit.
Okay.
Why do you fool around with abusiness like this?
I mean, I'm not, you know, I Iand I say this as somebody who
does the same thing.
Sure, sure.
Okay, because you know what I'minvolved in.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's it, I mean, there are otherbusinesses maybe that would
(13:31):
offer you.
I mean, you've got a uh anAI-based company.
SPEAKER_02 (13:35):
I do.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (13:36):
Okay.
And I mean, let's face it, thepotential of that is staggering.
It is.
And so, and yet you still do abusiness like this.
Because not to say this isn'tinnovative, but I'm just saying
it's not in the same league orcategory.
It'll never have the value of abusiness like a software SaaS or
(13:57):
AI company would, right?
SPEAKER_02 (13:58):
Yeah, I think there's a couple there's a
couple of things.
Why do it?
Well, first, I would say thatthis one actually might have
just as much or more.
Really?
As far as potential exit.
SPEAKER_03 (14:09):
Okay.
You know.
I guess I I I'm not smart enoughto see that when I compare it to
starting SaaS first.
SPEAKER_02 (14:17):
Right.
Like this business has so manybroken pieces to like not our
business, the the the industryor the genre.
Yeah, the genre of what the hellwe're dealing with has a million
broken pieces.
And so to try to go fixsomething in SaaS, like it's
going to really isolate you,narrow, narrow you down to you
know, to something so dedefinely niche that like that's
(14:42):
very vulnerable, in my opinion,because uh, you know, a Google
or YouTube or somebody couldjust completely bust that niche
up.
SPEAKER_03 (14:47):
Well, that's true.
Yeah, it's much more I get that.
It's much more vulnerable to achange and environment.
SPEAKER_02 (14:53):
And then if you started with a really
broad-based SaaS that can doeverything that we're doing here
today under a SaaS platform or aGentic Flow or whatever, like I
think that's extremelyexpensive.
Like I don't know, yeah.
Um I I mean, I'm you can'tmarket it because the whole
world could buy it.
That's yeah, 100%.
And you need you would need afew billion dollars, honestly,
to to try to build somethinglike that.
(15:15):
And yeah, then I think also thatthere's just so much
undiscovered territory as towhat the real problems are.
And I and I feel like thatthat's the other part.
You know, if I was to start thiscompany out brand new, saying,
hey, let's be like like we didwhat we did with Ad Fury, if I
was to say we're gonna build anagentic flow with the software
as a service, and that's ourplan, like it would have been
(15:37):
really risky because there's somany unknown nooks and crannies
of problems that you couldn'tsolve them technologically.
And so you would end up havingthis SaaS that need that
depended on a very bighuman-based scale that would
have been a paradox to thattotal model.
SPEAKER_03 (15:56):
And so you've done business, but your SAS business
that was aimed at a veryspecific problem.
Yeah, so the other company itis, right?
SPEAKER_02 (16:04):
I mean, so but this one, the the decision to go
service-based first, we'vetalked about this, like there's
a it has cost money, but it'sbeen in human human capital,
right?
That's where the that's wherethe investment is primarily.
And we invest in the people andin, like I said, getting hands
(16:24):
on keyboard and digging intothese wormholes of hell that
nobody else wants to mess with.
And nobody's done it from a froma processed mindset to go, okay.
Yeah, to make it scalable.
Yeah, exactly.
Like like you, yeah, sure, yougot millions of influencers out
there that have figured outcertain things about certain
channels, but none of them aresharing their information.
(16:44):
It's Joe's burgers versusMcDonald's.
You're maybe McDonald's.
Yes, exactly.
Yeah.
And so, but to start out withservice-based, and the reason
why I think there's a scalableexit approach is because now
that we've figured out theservice-based, we are, we
already have, started doingagentic flows against some of
our back end process of whereyou can actually do it and where
(17:05):
there's not a solution for it.
And so we can build our own AIflows to automate these little
pieces.
But if you looked at a hundredboxes in the process, well,
you're perfecting your systemfirst.
SPEAKER_03 (17:16):
Yes, that's what I'm saying.
You're testing and perfecting.
SPEAKER_02 (17:20):
Perfecting, figuring out, and then and then we do
have SaaS plans.
We do, I mean, there's somethings that we we're we're gonna
be doing to continue to automateand make our business more
efficient, but at the same time,it can be resellable in a SaaS
format.
But that could happen in a yearor two down the road when they
become easily available.
So I do see down the road thatyou might see more of a hybrid
(17:42):
business that where it's youknow, half of it is SaaS and
tech led, the other half isstill very service business.
And that actually kind of buttsinto I've done that before with
White Spider.
We started very very muchservice and we started
automating the processes thatwere fatiguing us and that we
could actually automate.
So in and and then also there'sthe the whole media component to
(18:04):
this that that has a lot oftentacles to it.
It's just extremely complicatedbusiness, you know.
And then but there's a lot ofroom to grow.
A lot of room to grow with that.
Now, adfury.ai, which is theSaaS company you're talking
about that I got with my partnerJS, um that one is very defined
niche.
Like it's a you know, it's it'swithin a retail media network in
(18:26):
the retail world that's outsideof the big mass advertising
spaces, you know, and so it'svery defined already.
So the world's gotten smaller.
Right.
And then even in that world, wegotten really tight on just the
creative supply chain or thecontent supply chain aspect of
how you create the creative forthe advertising.
So we're not trying, there's aplenty of players doing um, you
(18:49):
know, campaign management,automation, using AI, doing
sponsored search and all thesedifferent things, but nobody
nobody wants to piss around withthe creative because and so what
they do is they don't usecreative a lot of times or the
creative advertising spaces downhere where the automated you
know budgets are up here.
And our job is to to take allthat filthy production work that
(19:14):
no one wants to do, includingthe creative designers
themselves.
Nobody wants to sit around andredraw boxes, you know, and sure
and reformat ad sizes.
SPEAKER_03 (19:23):
I'm I'm i I'm really skeptical of the quote
creatives.
Okay.
I mean, I hate to say that, butI find a lot of them I I A, I
don't think they are thatcreative.
And B, they're so inconsistentin their output and productivity
(19:43):
that I'm I'm just skeptical, Iguess.
It just, I mean, I've gotlimited experience dealing with
them.
I know you've got a lot morethan I do, but I've been
involved in a million differentcompanies where we hire outside
creative talent.
And so many times they're justsuch a letdown.
It's kind of like PR firms.
(20:04):
It's the same thing there, youknow, where they just stroke
you, stroke you, stroke you.
They got lots of words, sell it,but you know, in the end, yeah,
it's not that good.
SPEAKER_02 (20:13):
And I think that well, I think that that that
that exists across any line,honestly.
I do, but but I'd say in thecreative space, a lot of time,
my experience on just the agencyside is a lot of times the
agent, I'm talking small shopsyou know, are founded by
creatives that are verycreative, but then they get into
business and they don'tunderstand the amount of time
(20:36):
and operational organizationthat that requires.
And so therefore they spend youknow more just as much time in
QuickBooks and pissing aroundwith legal entities and then
with that scopes of work and allthat, yeah, then they lose, they
they have to lose theircreative, you know, flow.
They they lose that creativelock-in.
(20:57):
So maybe they do better ifthey're in a bigger company
where all that's taken care of.
A lot of times, you know, a lotof times, but then you get those
creatives that I think that whenyou get into bigger companies,
you know, um I have experienceor seeing that there's a lot of
resistance in evolution.
Um I think that in today's timewith AI, there's a lot of
(21:23):
there's a lot of threat.
And so the resistance on AI Oh,resistance to use it because I
don't but uh but I do think thatthere's creatives that are
embracing it and that do evolvethat are actually the the best.
Right.
They're using the tool for whatit's supposed to be.
100%.
And it can, you know, thosefolks are gonna really they're
(21:44):
gonna be, you know, they'regonna be really successful.
You know, the ones that areunderstanding that that
technical side, you know, andand leveraging those tools the
the appropriate way.
But but a lot of times thingsget stalled out and they they
slow.
Down in a lot of the times thethe billing model to it is kind
of the the anti of what abusiness owner wants.
(22:07):
Business owner wants you knowfrequency, con continuous, you
know, consistency.
Yeah.
You know, getting that word out,message out.
And a lot of times creatives,you know, want to spend more
time than what maybe is neededin something and get paid for
it.
And get paid for it.
Yeah.
Because it's built on an hourlybasis.
So the age, therefore, theagency doesn't want to just the
(22:28):
same thing as architecture andengineering.
SPEAKER_03 (22:31):
I mean, it's like when CAD came around.
Yeah.
You know, I was in the business40 plus years ago.
And it was like, you know, wecan use CAD, but then we have
less drafting hours to sell.
Yeah.
How is that good for us?
Uh, you know?
Yeah.
I mean, it's like, well, maybeit's going to make you more
competitive, which then allowsyou to do other stuff that maybe
is higher value, but so manypeople resisted and fought it
(22:55):
and kicked tooth and they justthought all they saw was it's
going to reduce their hours theycan build.
And then no, I mean, very fewcompanies will like, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (23:05):
I mean, in like you have a kind of like you can't
fight it, right?
You have to you have to go withthe changes and with the
customer.
It's always about what thecustomer's value is.
It's never about the business'svalue.
Yeah, the customer just wantsthe output, right?
SPEAKER_03 (23:19):
Yeah.
They want the product.
SPEAKER_02 (23:20):
Yeah.
And I mean what went into it.
Just like I get pressure for,you know, hey, we need to have a
higher profit margin in thebusiness, you know, at times.
And I'm just like, no, man, weneed to lower our prices, is
what we need to do.
Like, and I'd rather have morecustomers at lower prices
because the customer needs lowerprices and they need to be able
(23:41):
to distribute more content.
And so if we raise our prices,then we're basically not
allowing the customer to havemore value in what we're doing.
SPEAKER_03 (23:50):
Right there to me is like one of the key departures
between an entrepreneurialthinker and a small business
owner.
They think about theprofitability and what they can
extract, and they forget all thebenefits of the growth.
Right.
The growth, having more clients,having more experiences that
you're learning from that'lladvance, having more expertise
(24:12):
that you couldn't have if youwere smaller.
Well, yeah, but they just thinkshort-term profit.
SPEAKER_02 (24:18):
Well, you said a key word about the experiences,
right?
That's what that's why you wantmore volume of clients.
That's why you want a greaterdiversity.
Right.
You know, like if you don't havethat, that you you're not really
surfing or navigating, trying tofind that really good, you know,
current of a specific industryor a type of job title or
(24:39):
whatever your audience is.
Yeah.
You know, your goal is to find areally great target audience
that is consistently buying whatyou have because there's value
that you're giving to them.
They see it and they know it andthey need it.
Yeah.
And you're able to do thatreally well and do it better
than anybody else.
And that's how you lock intothat's how your that's where
your moat is formed.
That's how you that's why yougot to cast a lot of hooks and
(25:01):
water.
You do, man.
I mean, it's you do, and theyall teach you a little
something.
Sure.
And it's just like anything.
Like if you're gonna be a great,you know, freaking NBA
basketball player, you better befreaking dribbling the ball and
trying a whole bunch ofdifferent things.
You can't just sit there, sitthere and shoot free throws
because you want to be a goodfree throw shooter.
Yeah.
No, you know, you may not be agood free throw shooter.
Or there might be a hundred ofthem that are just as good as
(25:21):
you.
Yeah.
So you better learn how to dunkand shoot three-pointers and get
rebounds, right?
SPEAKER_03 (25:27):
Well, you know at all.
Speaking of basketball courts,this new house that we bought,
we haven't closed on yet, has abasketball court.
It's got a Michael Jordanbasketball court.
Why the hell do you need it?
I don't.
I'm gonna take that out and makethat part of the pool deck.
What are you gonna do with thebasketball goal?
I'm gonna leave it there,probably.
(25:48):
Oh, okay.
You're just gonna I'm just it'sgot all that that decking on
there that makes it, you know,that's expensive.
Oh, wow.
That's got a wood floor?
No, it's it's got some kind oflike like rubber pad things on
it.
Okay.
This was owned by a basketballcoach.
So what is it?
What's it's good stuff.
Maybe I can find somebody onFacebook Marketplace that will
(26:11):
buy all that.
But I'm not gonna be shootingbaskets out there.
Yeah, maybe you could.
But no, that's that's veryinteresting.
So you've got these twodifferent entities out there.
Do you find that it's difficult?
Um, and I know you got otherthings you're involved in too,
both profit, for-profit, andnonprofit business um entities.
Do you find it's it's hard foryou to decide where to put your
(26:34):
time?
SPEAKER_02 (26:34):
Yeah, it's it's an hour by hour freaking issue.
You know, I mean, I got I mean,it's a continuous problem that
I'm always thinking that itmight be a solution to it.
I don't know, maybe it's justthe the reality of the world.
But I mean, I try to I try toreserve Mondays for podcast
videos, Tuesdays for ad fury,meaning that I'm at those
(26:56):
locations on those days workingwith the teams and having team
meetings and getting up to date.
But, you know, the rest of thetime, the rest of the weeks, I
mean hour by hour, and one'spopping in, one's popping out,
I'm getting calls, texts, youknow, emails from one or the
other.
There's just a lot too a lot ofvariety going on.
Um and then the worst part aboutit is that there's things that I
(27:18):
need hours to work on myselfbecause I think that a lot of
folks don't are la have the lackof confidence to make decisions
and go forward with stuff, youknow, versus what maybe I do.
And I don't think it's theanything about intelligence, I
(27:39):
just think it has a lot to dowith like a mentality of a small
business or an entrepreneur towhere there's there's a level of
non-perfection that I'm okaywith.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:49):
And they and you can always say, I need more
information.
You totally can.
So you just keep going to oneexpert after another, they give
you different inputs.
Which one do you listen to?
So they become paralyzed.
SPEAKER_02 (27:59):
They do.
Yeah.
And then and then they theydon't want to get in trouble,
they don't want to fail, theydon't want to be let go.
Sure.
You know, whereas I think thatwe have this thing like, well,
hell, man.
I mean, like it's the only thingwe can do.
So let's go.
I've survived this far.
Yeah.
I mean, you gotta pull thetrigger, you know, you gotta
take an action, you gotta get tomarket.
(28:20):
And yeah, you know, and so thatthat becomes kind of challenging
because I think there's a veryand the thing about it that
drives me a little crazy is thekind of work that I love to do.
You know, I mean, I loved, Imean, like I did spend three
hours on Sunday diving deep intoa world that that I I have
experience in that nobody elsewas going to take the charge on.
(28:44):
For whatever reason, nobodycould create a good outline and
a strategy for this.
It was about an event.
And then everybody's askingquestions and nobody wants to
own it.
And so it falls back.
That's what happens a lot to me.
Nobody wants to really ownsomething.
SPEAKER_03 (28:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (28:57):
And so it ends up getting delayed, delayed,
delayed, and then I have to Oh,I get that.
I get that.
You know, does that happen toyou?
Oh, God, yeah.
I mean, it's like an every week,everyday thing, like where
there's something that I have toown because no one else wants to
take ownership.
Yeah.
And like put a really good footforward.
SPEAKER_03 (29:14):
You want everybody else to do it, but they're at
some point you discover it's notgoing to happen unless you do
it.
100%.
SPEAKER_02 (29:22):
Yeah, yeah.
And it's not clear and it's notwell thought out.
Yeah, like sure.
It took me three hours, and Iwas using AI the entire time.
It was my basis of research.
Oh, AI is great for research.
But I'm not looking at my hoursand contemplating okay, am I
spending three hours where Icould be doing something else
fun or like, is it worth mytime?
(29:43):
Yeah, I'm not getting paidanything.
Yeah.
You know, but I'm doing threehours because it took three
hours to get the shit shit doneright.
Most of what I do is not gettingpaid anything.
SPEAKER_03 (29:53):
No, I'm not getting paid anything to sit here with
you.
SPEAKER_02 (29:57):
We're both free.
But I mean, like, I did thethree hours and it just became
three hours because, but it wasdone right.
It was well articulated, it wasclear, you know, it had the
value to the customer, whichmost people forget.
I don't it blows my mind howpeople so quickly get drifted
(30:19):
away from the what are youreally trying to, like, why are
you doing what you're doing?
Yeah.
And it comes down to does thecut, is that something the
customer is going to beinterested in buying?
I know.
You know, and is it valuable tothem?
And so I I don't know if we havea special knack to just stay
locked into that, but like Ican, you know, as I'm doing my
AI research and I got, you know,freaking two hours worth of this
(30:43):
information coming through, I'dlike that it populates back and
I read it.
Then I re-prompt it and dothings so it gets clearer.
And then I'm I'm combating thewhat the the robot has said and
what research has said toreally, and I'm having to twist
it back to get back to thekernel of the value because it
forgets and it goes off intothis other world.
(31:04):
And I'm like, no, you know, thisis who we're going after.
This this is what these peoplecare about, you know, and so get
back on track.
And so, but anyway, but by theend of it, it's now it's
something that actually is goingto provide value.
And it's just simply an outline,it's a direction.
Yeah.
And anybody under the sun can dothat work.
(31:24):
Like, there's there's nothingspecial about what I'm doing.
I'm just thinking about thecustomer and making something
done correctly, you know, andthat has been thought about a
little bit.
SPEAKER_03 (31:36):
That's it.
But no, so like you just saidthough, I could have been doing
something else.
I mean, you also like to dophysical things, yeah.
Where you see the outputimmediately, don't you?
Yeah.
It's so gratifying.
It is, yes.
I mean, I think that's a bigpart of the problem with a lot
of entrepreneurs and andbusiness small business owners
(31:57):
is that they don't get thatgratification from doing
physical work.
Yeah.
And then it it somehow itimpacts their their psyche.
Oh, totally.
Yeah.
You know, because it's a normalpart of being a human is doing
something.
Yeah.
Tangible.
See something get completed.
(32:18):
Yes.
A project get done or somethingbeing built.
I was working on one of mymotorcycles this weekend and
making a lot of modifications toit.
And I mean, my wife was likehaving to call me, you know,
because we had to go somewhere.
And I'm just I'm staying out inthe garage.
If we had to be somewhere atfive, leave at 5:30.
(32:38):
I mean, I'm out there at five tofive.
She's telling me you got to comein and take a shower at five, at
5.05, at 5.08, at 510.
Okay.
And I don't want to leave it.
Yeah.
All right.
And during that time, Icompletely block everything else
out.
Yeah.
And then when I'm and I figureout what how to do what I'm
(33:00):
doing, it's so gratifying.
I'm like, God, why don't I dothis more?
I when I was a kid, I wouldfocus in on things like that.
And it's it's just such a greatfeeling.
SPEAKER_00 (33:12):
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SPEAKER_02 (33:26):
Well, I think that what um you know, that kind of
comes back into balance orwhatever you want to call it,
but we call it integration.
But you know, uh the biggestrelease is when you don't think
about all the other things thatare going on in the business,
right?
Like this.
You have to have that that's theseparation.
(33:47):
That's what's so hard though.
It is, but but I think that thereason the the way to really
force your way into that is tobe doing something that has to
require your focus andattention, just like what you're
talking about.
You know, I like to I used tolove that, that's what I love
about mountain biking.
You know, as I get on a mountainbike and it wasn't You can't be
looking at your phone.
Dude, you can't be thinkingabout anything else, you're
(34:08):
gonna smack the tree.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, and so there's somedanger to it, right?
Same thing with like, you know,if I'm on that uh excavator
trying to build a new littletrail or road or something, I'm
like sitting on the edge of afreaking hillside.
I'm like, okay, bro, yeah,where's the track at?
You know, as I'm backing up.
That happened the other day.
Better not be talking, man.
(34:29):
And you better not be thinkingabout you know something else
somebody needs, you know, orthat you have a deadline
looming.
And but I mean, I think thatescape is is really valuable and
people need to find what that isfor them.
You know, it could be a lot ofdifferent things.
SPEAKER_03 (34:43):
Well, I think too, when you do that, sometimes you
do make those creativebreakthroughs 100% because it
even during the activity of whatyou're doing that's not related
to that, it somehow blocks outall the excess shit.
SPEAKER_02 (34:58):
Well, hey, so on that, I have always proven again
and again to myself, myintuition, my gut thought is
always seems to be the rightway.
Oh, I know.
You know, no matter I don'tknow.
I don't even know whatcircumstance that I've that
where if I if I that I shouldnot have listened to it or that
(35:20):
I, you know, was happy that Ichose a different, you know, a
logical reason.
But I think that when we getthat focus out into something
else, our gut and our intuitionis actually working better.
It's starting to grow againinstead of being beaten down by
our logic and reasoning and whatwhat the hell everybody else is
saying.
And expectations of others.
(35:40):
Yeah, and I mean, and and youknow, like a good example that I
had that's been time proven inevery circumstance is I know
that this person is not doing areally great job.
They're not help, they'rehelping not progress in the
company, right?
They need to make a change.
And I'm like, I know that that'sthe right thing to do, but then
my emotions come in.
(36:01):
Oh man, but they're so nice.
I know.
SPEAKER_03 (36:03):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (36:03):
You know, oh you rationalize.
You start rationalizing, you getemotional about it.
You know, well, what's what'sJimmy gonna think about me
letting her go?
Yeah, right.
Sarah gonna think about lettinghim go.
You know, it it's and so youstart allowing all these other
things to compile against it,but the whole time the right
decision.
And the longer you elongate thatdecision, the worse and worse
(36:26):
and worse it gets, and the morecomplex it gets.
SPEAKER_03 (36:28):
Well, I don't know.
Working with software developersand all, but I can tell you,
working with architects andengineers, particularly
engineers, is anytime you wantto follow your intuition or just
do things, they see that asunprofessional or you're a hip
(36:49):
shooter, or you don't know whatyou're doing.
We know how to do it right, youdon't know how to do it right,
but they can't get it in somecases, they can't get things
done.
SPEAKER_04 (37:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (37:01):
I I I I never see enough experimentation and
trying things, yeah, as opposedto coming up with the perfect
solution right out of the boxthe first time because we spent
so much time planning and alongthe way that we know, you know,
it it it kills businesses, Ithink.
(37:22):
Yeah.
Oh, yeah, for sure.
More action, moreexperimentation, more just
trying stuff.
I mean, I think that that's theBut it's looked down on by a lot
of people.
SPEAKER_02 (37:34):
Well, it is, but I think I I do think that that's
where Silicon Valley area hasthe re the biggest reason that
they I mean man, that theirbusiness practices and their
cultural mentality like thatabout testing, trying, getting
to market is like it's such a adifferent scale than every other
business under the sun rightnow.
(37:55):
I mean, because they're willingto take risks and push things
out that are not perfect andthen kind of reiterate,
reiterate.
Yes.
And just and they're alwayslaunching, launching, launching.
Like it's amazing about howtheir speed to market and their
speed to, you know, to evolve islike it's it's you know, it's
something to be uh I mean, youknow, greatly appreciated by
(38:19):
every other type of businessthat's out there.
SPEAKER_03 (38:21):
Well, people do it with their business plans too.
And then instead of starting anddoing something and getting paid
by somebody to do it, they wantto perfect it.
Yeah.
And then they never really getit out of the gate.
Yeah.
unknown (38:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (38:33):
I mean, you know, that that holds a lot of
entrepreneurs.
SPEAKER_02 (38:36):
And I mean, I've I don't know that I don't I don't
know that I've ever reallystarted a business that I
actually planned.
Yeah.
I know, I get it.
I've planned some businesses Inever started, but I don't know
that I've started a businessthat I really planned, you know.
Yeah.
I mean, because a lot of it,again, is the gut.
Like, I mean, like, dude, I knowthere's just like this business,
I know that there's a market.
(38:57):
I know that there's a massiveproblem.
There's one that has to befixed.
I can s I can sense you'veproved it.
I mean technology, the theecosystem continue.
Like when I saw that thing, thatfreaking here's what drives when
I see the freaking stat aboutpodcasts are now have superseded
radio.
And back like in 2009 orsomething, it was saying that it
(39:19):
was only 15% of what radio wasdoing.
And now it's at like 60%.
You know, and so it took allthese years, but it was so
obvious to me.
Like, who wouldn't want to havemore control over what they
listen to?
You know, and the same thing forthe robots.
What robot doesn't want to havenew fresh content that it
hasn't, that their competitiverobots makes total sense haven't
(39:41):
already chomped out and said itmakes it makes absolutely total
sense.
You know, why do we have to waituntil the data gets here to say
that we're right?
But the really the intuition ispretty clear.
SPEAKER_03 (39:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (39:53):
You know, like, and that's why I'm not really afraid
of all this other stuff.
It's like they, you know, youget these stats come out and
these people have opinion, butat the end of the day, like
you're dealing with with humansand you're dealing with robots,
and what do they want?
They want new fresh content.
How do you get that?
SPEAKER_03 (40:09):
Why are you so good at figuring out what the other
guy wants?
Why, why?
I mean, you you constantly goback to that.
Well, I've uh uh you know whatthe customer, what the customer
wants, what the client wants.
Um because I waited tables.
Is that it?
Hell yeah, bro.
Uh huh.
SPEAKER_02 (40:25):
Watch them over there, right?
Dude, I I remember like Iremember being like in the wait
station.
And everybody's fine.
I'd have four tables, but I'djust sit there and I'd watch
them and I'd see them do that.
Uh huh.
I'm like, boom, I'm gonna hitthem up with some more tea.
I'm like, as soon, because youknow, I knew that they're at a
(40:46):
little bit above half.
SPEAKER_03 (40:47):
Yeah, they got some ice in there, and that much
really left.
SPEAKER_02 (40:50):
Yeah, well, I mean, I would catch them when they get
right past that halfway line.
SPEAKER_03 (40:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (40:54):
But if I got them above the halfway line, like
that's a little annoying.
Yeah.
And a little ridiculous.
But below the halfway line, it'slike really good, right?
Yeah, and then I'd watch themtoo.
You know, they'd take theirlast, like they'd be sitting
there eating's, and I'd be like,Eat, you know, take that last
dot, you know.
Boy, I'm gonna come get thatplate, you know.
And as soon as they I'd bewalking over there, drift their
(41:14):
paid their plate out of the way,they'd have a nice clean space.
I mean, so you just observed.
Observed and um and predicted,you know, and and and was just
trying to be at the right placeat the right time, doing the
right thing, you know.
And so, I mean, I think waiting,and then you'd have the checks,
you know, and as soon as, youknow, I knew I knew I could
(41:37):
sense when they're wanting topay their bill and get out of
there, you know.
SPEAKER_03 (41:40):
Drives me crazy when they give you the bill and then
they leave for 30 minutes.
Yeah.
I'm like, service, service,service.
Then I get the bill and thenthey're gone.
I can't pay them.
SPEAKER_02 (41:50):
I wanted people to like have the bet like again, I
would recognize they might spend30 or 50 bucks on that meal.
You know, like that stuff's notlike that's expensive, you know.
I mean, but I mean, I wantedthem just to have this great
experience and I wanted to bepart of that, you know, and I
wanted recognition as well.
I wanted them to leave and tellthe manager, hey man, that
server is ridiculously good,like the best one that you know.
(42:14):
I mean, it's kind ofcompetitive, I guess, in a way,
you know.
Sure.
Um, but a lot of it's fromwaiting tables, man.
SPEAKER_03 (42:19):
Yeah.
Well, whatever it is, it got youunusually tuned in.
Yeah.
You know, I because I don'tthink a lot of business owners
are that good at that.
I think a lot of people, youknow, they do well if they aim a
business at people likethemselves.
All right.
That is one strategy that Ithink is a good strategy because
(42:40):
you understand you and youunderstand what your needs are,
and there's probably otherpeople like you.
Yeah.
So if you design your businessaround you, you, you know,
you're probably going to find acertain market.
Now, not all businesses can bedone like that, obviously.
Right.
Yeah.
And then it takes a better,maybe a higher level of skill to
(43:03):
be able to really understandwhat clients and customers want.
Yeah.
Because you're not always theclient or customer.
SPEAKER_02 (43:11):
No, not at all.
Especially even back at WhiteSpider.
I mean, I've never worked atWalmart or a retailer.
Right.
And I never worked for asupplier as a brand.
But yet I service both of them.
SPEAKER_03 (43:21):
That's why when you first told me you were going to
go after consumer products, I'mlike, why do you want to do
that?
Hell are you going to knowanything about that?
You're an idiot.
Boy, was that ever bad advice.
SPEAKER_02 (43:31):
But it but you can see their pain points.
Like I think it's an easy thingto visualize.
Like they have a lot ofproblems.
They had a lot of problems.
Fix the problems, and it doesn'teven be sexy.
Just fix the productionproblems, make their life a
little bit easier, make itfaster, make it less expensive,
make them a hero.
SPEAKER_03 (43:47):
Let them have a great experience walking off the
table.
Make them a hero inside bigorganizations.
It's a really big deal.
It's a huge, huge deal.
That's a really big deal.
All right, man.
I think we blew past.
Tom.
It's been fun talking though,and I've learned a lot.
SPEAKER_02 (44:03):
And uh and I always do when I talk with you.
Thanks, Mark.
I appreciate that.
And this has been anotherfantastic episode of that Big
Talk about SmallBusiness.com.
SPEAKER_01 (44:22):
Thanks for tuning into this episode of Big Talk
About Small Business.
If you have any questions orideas for upcoming shows, be
sure to head over to ourwebsite,
www.bigtalkaboutsmallbusiness.com,and click on the Ask the Host
button for the chance to haveyour questions answered on the
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Stay connected with us onLinkedIn at Big Talk About Small
(44:44):
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episodes, and ask questionsabout upcoming shows.
We need to lower our prices, is what we need to do.
Like, and I would rather havemore customers at lower prices
because the customer needs lowerprices and they need to be able
to distribute more content.
And so if we raise our prices,then we're basically not
allowing the customer to havemore value in what we're doing.
SPEAKER_03 (00:24):
Anyway, this has been another episode, or this is
and will be another episode ofbig talk about small businesses.
SPEAKER_02 (00:35):
Okay.
Yeah.
So that's part, that's that'sour plan for um we've we've
tapped into some some reallypretty large organizations that
have you know a lot of depth forcontent that they need to be
promoting.
Uh that's pretty exciting for usto kind of scale out as well.
So big opportunities.
SPEAKER_03 (00:56):
So yeah, it seems, you know, when you first told me
about this concept, you Ithought, oh, there's a lot of
places like this out there.
Yeah.
But you've really got acompletely different twist on
it.
Well, I mean, obviously, onething is you've invested to
build a real facility here andhave it staffed with people who
(01:16):
actually know what they'redoing.
It's always interesting to mewhen I'm in your lobby.
It's like a who's who of thelocal business community.
I mean, yeah, it's really cool.
I see so many people here.
It's always a it's it's like,let's go to the party.
We got a podcast videos.
Everybody's there, you know?
SPEAKER_02 (01:33):
That is cool.
When the studio starts gettingbusy, you know, and there's
multiple shows going on.
I mean, you do get to see a lotof buck into a lot of folks, you
know, influential folks andbusiness leaders that are in
here doing their shows, andthat's always a good time.
SPEAKER_03 (01:46):
That is cool.
So, how do you differentiatethough from I mean, aside from
the fact that you've spent moremoney and to hire the people and
build the infrastructure thatyou have, what else is really
different about what you'redoing here?
SPEAKER_02 (01:59):
Uh, everything that we're doing is about speed and
scale.
You know, it's about drivingcosts low for the for the cost
customer.
Um, I mean, we definitely employthe theory of like, you know, if
we can use any kind ofautomation in our process, we
employ that so that way we canpass that savings on to the
customer.
I mean, our big get is that youcan basically do four episodes
(02:21):
per month, you know, it's forabout twelve hundred, thirteen
hundred dollars.
I mean, that's sixty-minutevideos shot and edited.
Now, distribution costs extra.
You know, you have all theseancillary services that you can
do on top of it, but just that,just the recording production
aspect, we've got it nailed downpretty good.
(02:42):
Um, then I think the biggestvalue is, I mean, really, I
always say our best client issomebody that's already tried to
do it because I mean, evenindividual influencers and
creators like, you know, to dothe distribution, to cut down
the videos, to create thesnippets.
SPEAKER_03 (02:56):
Oh, you spend a lot of time.
SPEAKER_02 (02:58):
It's it's just an enormous amount of work that no
it's production work that nobodywants to do, you know.
Or you have one person helps youand then they flake out.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, people get vulnerable,you know.
SPEAKER_03 (03:10):
You're you're out of business, basically.
SPEAKER_02 (03:12):
Yeah, and and it's just it's I mean, and then not
to mention as soon as you learnor figure something out,
especially in the social mediafront, algorithms change, you
know, sure recommend orrequirements change.
Yeah, it's a never-ending,growing process.
So we're we're constantly, Imean, our team is constantly at
bat at trying to figure outwell, you're in there with all
(03:32):
these different situations andcompanies.
SPEAKER_03 (03:34):
So you you're you're in it daily and you see what's
going on.
Oh, yeah, 100%.
It's got to be valuable.
SPEAKER_02 (03:39):
Just digging in the weeds, you're getting in the
clients.
It's like being good at likeinsurance or something.
Yeah.
Like it's just so messy inthere.
Right.
Like, what the hell doeseverything mean?
And that's our goal is to figureit out so that way we can just,
you know, provide that turnkeyservice and let the businesses
do what they do really well.
If they're manufacturingproducts or they're teaching
classes or whatever it is,doesn't matter.
(03:59):
You know, let us do thisridiculous thing.
You know, it's the same, youknow, I I like to liken it to
the same analogy of when youknow cameras became on people's
phones and or digital camerascame out, everybody became a
professional photographer justbecause there was a camera
available.
SPEAKER_03 (04:17):
Yeah, well, it's just like when when desktop
publishing came out, everybodywas a graphic designer.
Oh, yeah, but they weren't.
But they weren't, yeah.
A tool.
But it's like I give you arifle, you're automatically not
a sharpshooter.
SPEAKER_02 (04:29):
Yeah, yeah.
And so like just because you canbuy uh, you know, a nice
microphone in a in the camera.
Yeah, I guess.
Yeah, that's that's that's theeasy part.
And then, or it's kind of easy,it's assumingly easy, but you
know, setup, you know, how youturnkey it, like how you know
it's all about reduction oftime, you know, for if you did
do your own thing, like how doyou expedite the time?
(04:50):
Because it was you'd spend anhour and a half getting things
ready.
SPEAKER_03 (04:53):
It's kind of like having a trainer at a gym, too.
Yeah, it's like you'll go to thegym if the trainer's there and
it's scheduled.
That's fair.
You know, so here you've got thesame thing, the company that's
scheduled, you got to show up,you're gonna go there and you're
gonna do your thing.
SPEAKER_02 (05:06):
Well, and because I think it probably helps a lot of
people.
Well, it does because I thinkthat you know, frequency and
repetition is key in any kind ofmedia.
You know, like if you know, backin the day they you know they
would have a weekly newspaper,then they turn it into daily.
Well, they didn't do dailybecause it's it was a good idea.
They did it because peoplewanted more information on a
(05:26):
daily basis to stay current.
And that's the same thing thatif you're doing video shows as a
C level to your team, they wantmore frequent communication from
them.
Oh, I'm a big believer in that,you know, from marketing
standpoint.
It's marketing.
I mean, just even just like hellhell, even like not take the
human out of the equation, therobots, the algorithms want more
frequent content too.
(05:47):
Everybody wants new freshinformation.
Yeah, we can do that now.
It's just do companies actuallysee the light in that?
That's the that's the gap thatwe're fighting all the time.
So sales in, you know, on thego-to-market, you know, talking
about business.
I mean, you know, like if youare in a more of an innovative
type business, like you I thinkit's I've deceived myself about
(06:08):
100% of the time since I've beenin business that, oh, I see
this.
This is obvious.
Look at this, we can do this.
And then you go to clients andthey're like, I don't understand
even what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_03 (06:17):
Amen.
SPEAKER_02 (06:18):
And then you talk to them, then they go out and they
buy their own microphones andvideo cameras, and then they
staff somebody, you know, for$10,000 you know a month trying
to do the same thing, and theoutput's just as slow because
everybody gets qualitative aboutit instead of thinking about
that frequency, you know.
SPEAKER_03 (06:33):
Oh man, that's so true.
I mean, it's just I fought thatin marketing for the client, the
architecture and engineeringfirms I work with for years.
Yeah.
We'd rather have one good thingthan than 10 frequent.
I'm like, do you understandanything about marketing?
Okay.
We want one good quarterlynewsletter.
I'm like, no, no, let's dividethat up.
Yeah, let's send that stuff outevery week.
(06:54):
Absolutely.
We're gonna have a lot moreimpact.
SPEAKER_02 (06:56):
Human beings want the most recent current
information.
They don't want you know, Imean, nobody wants to.
People don't understand that.
They don't we know that.
Yeah, we know that, but I mean,they don't get it.
No, they don't.
I mean, and then and then and atthe end of the day, you like no,
you love that analogy or thatthat cliche.
Yeah, what about the beginningof the next step?
Yeah, the cliche.
Yeah.
(07:17):
Yeah, the cliche.
Um, you know, to be able to feedthe human listener, but also
just as importantly in today'stime, that that algorithm, that
this fresh, new created contentis really a big deal.
And speaking of, you know, Iasked get get asked the question
a lot about the AI, AI avatars,AI content, all that type of
(07:38):
stuff.
I mean, you know, as as morecontent is infused into social
or whatever platforms, likepeople are still gonna want to
hear from people.
And actually, the algorithms.
I mean, they actually wantsomething that's real.
Yeah, they do.
Yeah, they want something real,and the algorithms want
something that's real too.
Like, and so a lot of this slopthat goes out there.
(07:59):
I mean, the algorithm, you know,AI is smart enough to read AI.
You know, I mean, it knows whatit's seeing.
And so, but our shows that we dowhen we put this content out,
it's brand new, it's fresh, it'snot anywhere else in the in the
uh you know cyberspace.
Yes, it's got new guests, newtopics, all this stuff.
I mean, we're just basically thealgorithms are falling in love
with what we're doing.
(08:19):
Love it.
And and as more slop comes intothe equation, we're actually
rising up because of it.
SPEAKER_03 (08:25):
I mean, look at those.
I I don't know whether the theawards show I saw several months
ago on TV, they now have awardsfor podcasts.
You know, when they're givingout awards for various movies
and stuff, it's now a new formof media.
SPEAKER_02 (08:39):
Oh, it 100% is.
Actually, I just read a stat.
I I mean, I can't quote off thetop of my head, but I saw it
where podcasting has nowsuperseded radio in the amount
of listeners.
That's wild, isn't it?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (08:51):
I mean, it's like And you get exactly what you
want with a podcast.
That's the thing.
You you know, with a radio, likeyou you got to sit there and
listen to a lot of stuff youdon't want just to get to the
little bit that maybe you do.
SPEAKER_02 (09:05):
Well, the technology just allowed technology and
platforms have just allowed theyou know, the rifle shooting
scenario versus the shotgun ofthe radio, you know.
Yeah, exactly.
It was much more expensive, andyou had to be broad and you had
more people, and that was theonly source of avenue or channel
to get your information soeverybody would come to it.
But you know, my my big uhstatement has always been, you
know, in the past there's been ahundred media outlets with
(09:27):
millions of listeners apiece.
Now there's a million outletswith a hundred listeners apiece.
Yeah.
That's so everything's justgetting very way to look at
every yeah.
So it's exciting business.
I mean, it's challenging though.
I mean, it's like any business.
I mean, there's just so muchchange.
You know, the uh, you know, Ithink that like you know, that
plus other businesses that aregoing on right now, like the
(09:48):
just the the rapid scale of AI,the can you know, the continuous
you know, inventions oftechnology, to, you know, the
demands that our customers arehave facing, to the budget
constraints, I mean, all thattype of stuff.
I mean, it's pretty it's prettychallenging to you know to build
a business in this realm.
I think only only by that I meanchallenging mentally for the
(10:09):
team.
Sure.
The team has to they have tocome in the doors with a desire
to learn and grow every singleday.
Sure.
And that's something I thinkthat I've never seen at a sk at
at such an intensity level in myyears of business.
Uh, and how do you, you know,how do you encourage that?
How do you reward that?
How do you, you know, you know,try to prevent the opposite of
(10:33):
that, the drag?
Like, I mean, you just therecan't be one person on the team
dragging.
Sure.
There simply cannot be.
And and uh, I mean, it requiresa lot of the leader to continue
to push.
SPEAKER_03 (10:45):
Yeah, and you can't let the bureaucrats take over as
you get larger.
And and they and you bring in,quote, professionals to handle
various aspects of the businessbecause they can bureaucratize
it so fast.
They can and it kills it.
SPEAKER_02 (10:59):
You know, and one of my one of my I mean, I guess my
attempts or or exercises forthis business has been, you
know, since day one, we didn'treally hire any experts.
You know, I hired folks that arenewer in their career that have
this curiosity to learn and thento dig in and get things done,
(11:19):
right?
Like, I mean, if you don't know,you can learn and you can figure
it out.
Yep.
Um, and I'm only saying thatlike from the standpoint of we
do need, we're at a position nowas the company's growing, you
know, to bring on a little bitmore senior, experienced,
business type people that have alittle bit more foresight,
maybe, or they can see a littlebit further down the road, you
(11:40):
know, and how do you startbuilding those things?
Um, but if I would have hiredthe professionals in the
beginning with the experience, Imean, it would have been
immediate bureaucracy.
Yeah, there would have been, youknow, nobody would want to
actually get their hands dirty.
That's the hardest thing to do.
You know, they're all used tohaving other people working for
them.
And you can't do that in a in astartup innovative business.
(12:02):
I mean, yes, like I have to getmy hands dirty.
SPEAKER_03 (12:05):
You gotta do.
I gotta be a doer.
SPEAKER_02 (12:07):
I mean, uh, you know, yeah, the advent of AI,
like, I mean, it's forced me to,I mean, like, I have to use it.
I have to be a practitioner.
I have to I have to understand,you know, what the hell Gemini
Enterprise is, and then I haveto understand what pro is.
And that, you know, I mean, it'sjust this and then how to
structure those things so thateverybody can get access.
I mean, it's it's a crazy.
Well, you have gotten smarterthe older you got.
SPEAKER_03 (12:28):
I mean, it's just you just keep getting smarter
and smarter.
It blows me away.
I just keep learning, you know.
Just keep just keep divingdiving in.
But but let's just take a stepback for a minute.
Well, well, we, you know, soyou've got this business here,
and and you know, you've reallystuck it out to where you got to
a critical, you know, it startedas a hobby for you, if I recall.
(12:49):
I mean, you had that studio overthere, the old studio.
Yeah.
It was a place you went andplayed music and stuff.
Yeah.
And then the next thing youknow, you're doing podcasting
out of there.
And then the next thing youknow, you know, you're building
out one that's got all themultiple studios and everything.
But so I know you have a passionfor this stuff personally,
(13:09):
right?
But look, you're a guy thatbuilt a software company that
had a really successful exit.
Okay.
Why do you fool around with abusiness like this?
I mean, I'm not, you know, I Iand I say this as somebody who
does the same thing.
Sure, sure.
Okay, because you know what I'minvolved in.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's it, I mean, there are otherbusinesses maybe that would
(13:31):
offer you.
I mean, you've got a uh anAI-based company.
SPEAKER_02 (13:35):
I do.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (13:36):
Okay.
And I mean, let's face it, thepotential of that is staggering.
It is.
And so, and yet you still do abusiness like this.
Because not to say this isn'tinnovative, but I'm just saying
it's not in the same league orcategory.
It'll never have the value of abusiness like a software SaaS or
(13:57):
AI company would, right?
SPEAKER_02 (13:58):
Yeah, I think there's a couple there's a
couple of things.
Why do it?
Well, first, I would say thatthis one actually might have
just as much or more.
Really?
As far as potential exit.
SPEAKER_03 (14:09):
Okay.
You know.
I guess I I I'm not smart enoughto see that when I compare it to
starting SaaS first.
SPEAKER_02 (14:17):
Right.
Like this business has so manybroken pieces to like not our
business, the the the industryor the genre.
Yeah, the genre of what the hellwe're dealing with has a million
broken pieces.
And so to try to go fixsomething in SaaS, like it's
going to really isolate you,narrow, narrow you down to you
know, to something so dedefinely niche that like that's
(14:42):
very vulnerable, in my opinion,because uh, you know, a Google
or YouTube or somebody couldjust completely bust that niche
up.
SPEAKER_03 (14:47):
Well, that's true.
Yeah, it's much more I get that.
It's much more vulnerable to achange and environment.
SPEAKER_02 (14:53):
And then if you started with a really
broad-based SaaS that can doeverything that we're doing here
today under a SaaS platform or aGentic Flow or whatever, like I
think that's extremelyexpensive.
Like I don't know, yeah.
Um I I mean, I'm you can'tmarket it because the whole
world could buy it.
That's yeah, 100%.
And you need you would need afew billion dollars, honestly,
to to try to build somethinglike that.
(15:15):
And yeah, then I think also thatthere's just so much
undiscovered territory as towhat the real problems are.
And I and I feel like thatthat's the other part.
You know, if I was to start thiscompany out brand new, saying,
hey, let's be like like we didwhat we did with Ad Fury, if I
was to say we're gonna build anagentic flow with the software
as a service, and that's ourplan, like it would have been
(15:37):
really risky because there's somany unknown nooks and crannies
of problems that you couldn'tsolve them technologically.
And so you would end up havingthis SaaS that need that
depended on a very bighuman-based scale that would
have been a paradox to thattotal model.
SPEAKER_03 (15:56):
And so you've done business, but your SAS business
that was aimed at a veryspecific problem.
Yeah, so the other company itis, right?
SPEAKER_02 (16:04):
I mean, so but this one, the the decision to go
service-based first, we'vetalked about this, like there's
a it has cost money, but it'sbeen in human human capital,
right?
That's where the that's wherethe investment is primarily.
And we invest in the people andin, like I said, getting hands
(16:24):
on keyboard and digging intothese wormholes of hell that
nobody else wants to mess with.
And nobody's done it from a froma processed mindset to go, okay.
Yeah, to make it scalable.
Yeah, exactly.
Like like you, yeah, sure, yougot millions of influencers out
there that have figured outcertain things about certain
channels, but none of them aresharing their information.
(16:44):
It's Joe's burgers versusMcDonald's.
You're maybe McDonald's.
Yes, exactly.
Yeah.
And so, but to start out withservice-based, and the reason
why I think there's a scalableexit approach is because now
that we've figured out theservice-based, we are, we
already have, started doingagentic flows against some of
our back end process of whereyou can actually do it and where
(17:05):
there's not a solution for it.
And so we can build our own AIflows to automate these little
pieces.
But if you looked at a hundredboxes in the process, well,
you're perfecting your systemfirst.
SPEAKER_03 (17:16):
Yes, that's what I'm saying.
You're testing and perfecting.
SPEAKER_02 (17:20):
Perfecting, figuring out, and then and then we do
have SaaS plans.
We do, I mean, there's somethings that we we're we're gonna
be doing to continue to automateand make our business more
efficient, but at the same time,it can be resellable in a SaaS
format.
But that could happen in a yearor two down the road when they
become easily available.
So I do see down the road thatyou might see more of a hybrid
(17:42):
business that where it's youknow, half of it is SaaS and
tech led, the other half isstill very service business.
And that actually kind of buttsinto I've done that before with
White Spider.
We started very very muchservice and we started
automating the processes thatwere fatiguing us and that we
could actually automate.
So in and and then also there'sthe the whole media component to
(18:04):
this that that has a lot oftentacles to it.
It's just extremely complicatedbusiness, you know.
And then but there's a lot ofroom to grow.
A lot of room to grow with that.
Now, adfury.ai, which is theSaaS company you're talking
about that I got with my partnerJS, um that one is very defined
niche.
Like it's a you know, it's it'swithin a retail media network in
(18:26):
the retail world that's outsideof the big mass advertising
spaces, you know, and so it'svery defined already.
So the world's gotten smaller.
Right.
And then even in that world, wegotten really tight on just the
creative supply chain or thecontent supply chain aspect of
how you create the creative forthe advertising.
So we're not trying, there's aplenty of players doing um, you
(18:49):
know, campaign management,automation, using AI, doing
sponsored search and all thesedifferent things, but nobody
nobody wants to piss around withthe creative because and so what
they do is they don't usecreative a lot of times or the
creative advertising spaces downhere where the automated you
know budgets are up here.
And our job is to to take allthat filthy production work that
(19:14):
no one wants to do, includingthe creative designers
themselves.
Nobody wants to sit around andredraw boxes, you know, and sure
and reformat ad sizes.
SPEAKER_03 (19:23):
I'm I'm i I'm really skeptical of the quote
creatives.
Okay.
I mean, I hate to say that, butI find a lot of them I I A, I
don't think they are thatcreative.
And B, they're so inconsistentin their output and productivity
(19:43):
that I'm I'm just skeptical, Iguess.
It just, I mean, I've gotlimited experience dealing with
them.
I know you've got a lot morethan I do, but I've been
involved in a million differentcompanies where we hire outside
creative talent.
And so many times they're justsuch a letdown.
It's kind of like PR firms.
(20:04):
It's the same thing there, youknow, where they just stroke
you, stroke you, stroke you.
They got lots of words, sell it,but you know, in the end, yeah,
it's not that good.
SPEAKER_02 (20:13):
And I think that well, I think that that that
that exists across any line,honestly.
I do, but but I'd say in thecreative space, a lot of time,
my experience on just the agencyside is a lot of times the
agent, I'm talking small shopsyou know, are founded by
creatives that are verycreative, but then they get into
business and they don'tunderstand the amount of time
(20:36):
and operational organizationthat that requires.
And so therefore they spend youknow more just as much time in
QuickBooks and pissing aroundwith legal entities and then
with that scopes of work and allthat, yeah, then they lose, they
they have to lose theircreative, you know, flow.
They they lose that creativelock-in.
(20:57):
So maybe they do better ifthey're in a bigger company
where all that's taken care of.
A lot of times, you know, a lotof times, but then you get those
creatives that I think that whenyou get into bigger companies,
you know, um I have experienceor seeing that there's a lot of
resistance in evolution.
Um I think that in today's timewith AI, there's a lot of
(21:23):
there's a lot of threat.
And so the resistance on AI Oh,resistance to use it because I
don't but uh but I do think thatthere's creatives that are
embracing it and that do evolvethat are actually the the best.
Right.
They're using the tool for whatit's supposed to be.
100%.
And it can, you know, thosefolks are gonna really they're
(21:44):
gonna be, you know, they'regonna be really successful.
You know, the ones that areunderstanding that that
technical side, you know, andand leveraging those tools the
the appropriate way.
But but a lot of times thingsget stalled out and they they
slow.
Down in a lot of the times thethe billing model to it is kind
of the the anti of what abusiness owner wants.
(22:07):
Business owner wants you knowfrequency, con continuous, you
know, consistency.
Yeah.
You know, getting that word out,message out.
And a lot of times creatives,you know, want to spend more
time than what maybe is neededin something and get paid for
it.
And get paid for it.
Yeah.
Because it's built on an hourlybasis.
So the age, therefore, theagency doesn't want to just the
(22:28):
same thing as architecture andengineering.
SPEAKER_03 (22:31):
I mean, it's like when CAD came around.
Yeah.
You know, I was in the business40 plus years ago.
And it was like, you know, wecan use CAD, but then we have
less drafting hours to sell.
Yeah.
How is that good for us?
Uh, you know?
Yeah.
I mean, it's like, well, maybeit's going to make you more
competitive, which then allowsyou to do other stuff that maybe
is higher value, but so manypeople resisted and fought it
(22:55):
and kicked tooth and they justthought all they saw was it's
going to reduce their hours theycan build.
And then no, I mean, very fewcompanies will like, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (23:05):
I mean, in like you have a kind of like you can't
fight it, right?
You have to you have to go withthe changes and with the
customer.
It's always about what thecustomer's value is.
It's never about the business'svalue.
Yeah, the customer just wantsthe output, right?
SPEAKER_03 (23:19):
Yeah.
They want the product.
SPEAKER_02 (23:20):
Yeah.
And I mean what went into it.
Just like I get pressure for,you know, hey, we need to have a
higher profit margin in thebusiness, you know, at times.
And I'm just like, no, man, weneed to lower our prices, is
what we need to do.
Like, and I'd rather have morecustomers at lower prices
because the customer needs lowerprices and they need to be able
(23:41):
to distribute more content.
And so if we raise our prices,then we're basically not
allowing the customer to havemore value in what we're doing.
SPEAKER_03 (23:50):
Right there to me is like one of the key departures
between an entrepreneurialthinker and a small business
owner.
They think about theprofitability and what they can
extract, and they forget all thebenefits of the growth.
Right.
The growth, having more clients,having more experiences that
you're learning from that'lladvance, having more expertise
(24:12):
that you couldn't have if youwere smaller.
Well, yeah, but they just thinkshort-term profit.
SPEAKER_02 (24:18):
Well, you said a key word about the experiences,
right?
That's what that's why you wantmore volume of clients.
That's why you want a greaterdiversity.
Right.
You know, like if you don't havethat, that you you're not really
surfing or navigating, trying tofind that really good, you know,
current of a specific industryor a type of job title or
(24:39):
whatever your audience is.
Yeah.
You know, your goal is to find areally great target audience
that is consistently buying whatyou have because there's value
that you're giving to them.
They see it and they know it andthey need it.
Yeah.
And you're able to do thatreally well and do it better
than anybody else.
And that's how you lock intothat's how your that's where
your moat is formed.
That's how you that's why yougot to cast a lot of hooks and
(25:01):
water.
You do, man.
I mean, it's you do, and theyall teach you a little
something.
Sure.
And it's just like anything.
Like if you're gonna be a great,you know, freaking NBA
basketball player, you better befreaking dribbling the ball and
trying a whole bunch ofdifferent things.
You can't just sit there, sitthere and shoot free throws
because you want to be a goodfree throw shooter.
Yeah.
No, you know, you may not be agood free throw shooter.
Or there might be a hundred ofthem that are just as good as
(25:21):
you.
Yeah.
So you better learn how to dunkand shoot three-pointers and get
rebounds, right?
SPEAKER_03 (25:27):
Well, you know at all.
Speaking of basketball courts,this new house that we bought,
we haven't closed on yet, has abasketball court.
It's got a Michael Jordanbasketball court.
Why the hell do you need it?
I don't.
I'm gonna take that out and makethat part of the pool deck.
What are you gonna do with thebasketball goal?
I'm gonna leave it there,probably.
(25:48):
Oh, okay.
You're just gonna I'm just it'sgot all that that decking on
there that makes it, you know,that's expensive.
Oh, wow.
That's got a wood floor?
No, it's it's got some kind oflike like rubber pad things on
it.
Okay.
This was owned by a basketballcoach.
So what is it?
What's it's good stuff.
Maybe I can find somebody onFacebook Marketplace that will
(26:11):
buy all that.
But I'm not gonna be shootingbaskets out there.
Yeah, maybe you could.
But no, that's that's veryinteresting.
So you've got these twodifferent entities out there.
Do you find that it's difficult?
Um, and I know you got otherthings you're involved in too,
both profit, for-profit, andnonprofit business um entities.
Do you find it's it's hard foryou to decide where to put your
(26:34):
time?
SPEAKER_02 (26:34):
Yeah, it's it's an hour by hour freaking issue.
You know, I mean, I got I mean,it's a continuous problem that
I'm always thinking that itmight be a solution to it.
I don't know, maybe it's justthe the reality of the world.
But I mean, I try to I try toreserve Mondays for podcast
videos, Tuesdays for ad fury,meaning that I'm at those
(26:56):
locations on those days workingwith the teams and having team
meetings and getting up to date.
But, you know, the rest of thetime, the rest of the weeks, I
mean hour by hour, and one'spopping in, one's popping out,
I'm getting calls, texts, youknow, emails from one or the
other.
There's just a lot too a lot ofvariety going on.
Um and then the worst part aboutit is that there's things that I
(27:18):
need hours to work on myselfbecause I think that a lot of
folks don't are la have the lackof confidence to make decisions
and go forward with stuff, youknow, versus what maybe I do.
And I don't think it's theanything about intelligence, I
(27:39):
just think it has a lot to dowith like a mentality of a small
business or an entrepreneur towhere there's there's a level of
non-perfection that I'm okaywith.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:49):
And they and you can always say, I need more
information.
You totally can.
So you just keep going to oneexpert after another, they give
you different inputs.
Which one do you listen to?
So they become paralyzed.
SPEAKER_02 (27:59):
They do.
Yeah.
And then and then they theydon't want to get in trouble,
they don't want to fail, theydon't want to be let go.
Sure.
You know, whereas I think thatwe have this thing like, well,
hell, man.
I mean, like it's the only thingwe can do.
So let's go.
I've survived this far.
Yeah.
I mean, you gotta pull thetrigger, you know, you gotta
take an action, you gotta get tomarket.
(28:20):
And yeah, you know, and so thatthat becomes kind of challenging
because I think there's a veryand the thing about it that
drives me a little crazy is thekind of work that I love to do.
You know, I mean, I loved, Imean, like I did spend three
hours on Sunday diving deep intoa world that that I I have
experience in that nobody elsewas going to take the charge on.
(28:44):
For whatever reason, nobodycould create a good outline and
a strategy for this.
It was about an event.
And then everybody's askingquestions and nobody wants to
own it.
And so it falls back.
That's what happens a lot to me.
Nobody wants to really ownsomething.
SPEAKER_03 (28:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (28:57):
And so it ends up getting delayed, delayed,
delayed, and then I have to Oh,I get that.
I get that.
You know, does that happen toyou?
Oh, God, yeah.
I mean, it's like an every week,everyday thing, like where
there's something that I have toown because no one else wants to
take ownership.
Yeah.
And like put a really good footforward.
SPEAKER_03 (29:14):
You want everybody else to do it, but they're at
some point you discover it's notgoing to happen unless you do
it.
100%.
SPEAKER_02 (29:22):
Yeah, yeah.
And it's not clear and it's notwell thought out.
Yeah, like sure.
It took me three hours, and Iwas using AI the entire time.
It was my basis of research.
Oh, AI is great for research.
But I'm not looking at my hoursand contemplating okay, am I
spending three hours where Icould be doing something else
fun or like, is it worth mytime?
(29:43):
Yeah, I'm not getting paidanything.
Yeah.
You know, but I'm doing threehours because it took three
hours to get the shit shit doneright.
Most of what I do is not gettingpaid anything.
SPEAKER_03 (29:53):
No, I'm not getting paid anything to sit here with
you.
SPEAKER_02 (29:57):
We're both free.
But I mean, like, I did thethree hours and it just became
three hours because, but it wasdone right.
It was well articulated, it wasclear, you know, it had the
value to the customer, whichmost people forget.
I don't it blows my mind howpeople so quickly get drifted
(30:19):
away from the what are youreally trying to, like, why are
you doing what you're doing?
Yeah.
And it comes down to does thecut, is that something the
customer is going to beinterested in buying?
I know.
You know, and is it valuable tothem?
And so I I don't know if we havea special knack to just stay
locked into that, but like Ican, you know, as I'm doing my
AI research and I got, you know,freaking two hours worth of this
(30:43):
information coming through, I'dlike that it populates back and
I read it.
Then I re-prompt it and dothings so it gets clearer.
And then I'm I'm combating thewhat the the robot has said and
what research has said toreally, and I'm having to twist
it back to get back to thekernel of the value because it
forgets and it goes off intothis other world.
(31:04):
And I'm like, no, you know, thisis who we're going after.
This this is what these peoplecare about, you know, and so get
back on track.
And so, but anyway, but by theend of it, it's now it's
something that actually is goingto provide value.
And it's just simply an outline,it's a direction.
Yeah.
And anybody under the sun can dothat work.
(31:24):
Like, there's there's nothingspecial about what I'm doing.
I'm just thinking about thecustomer and making something
done correctly, you know, andthat has been thought about a
little bit.
SPEAKER_03 (31:36):
That's it.
But no, so like you just saidthough, I could have been doing
something else.
I mean, you also like to dophysical things, yeah.
Where you see the outputimmediately, don't you?
Yeah.
It's so gratifying.
It is, yes.
I mean, I think that's a bigpart of the problem with a lot
of entrepreneurs and andbusiness small business owners
(31:57):
is that they don't get thatgratification from doing
physical work.
Yeah.
And then it it somehow itimpacts their their psyche.
Oh, totally.
Yeah.
You know, because it's a normalpart of being a human is doing
something.
Yeah.
Tangible.
See something get completed.
(32:18):
Yes.
A project get done or somethingbeing built.
I was working on one of mymotorcycles this weekend and
making a lot of modifications toit.
And I mean, my wife was likehaving to call me, you know,
because we had to go somewhere.
And I'm just I'm staying out inthe garage.
If we had to be somewhere atfive, leave at 5:30.
(32:38):
I mean, I'm out there at five tofive.
She's telling me you got to comein and take a shower at five, at
5.05, at 5.08, at 510.
Okay.
And I don't want to leave it.
Yeah.
All right.
And during that time, Icompletely block everything else
out.
Yeah.
And then when I'm and I figureout what how to do what I'm
(33:00):
doing, it's so gratifying.
I'm like, God, why don't I dothis more?
I when I was a kid, I wouldfocus in on things like that.
And it's it's just such a greatfeeling.
SPEAKER_00 (33:12):
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SPEAKER_02 (33:26):
Well, I think that what um you know, that kind of
comes back into balance orwhatever you want to call it,
but we call it integration.
But you know, uh the biggestrelease is when you don't think
about all the other things thatare going on in the business,
right?
Like this.
You have to have that that's theseparation.
(33:47):
That's what's so hard though.
It is, but but I think that thereason the the way to really
force your way into that is tobe doing something that has to
require your focus andattention, just like what you're
talking about.
You know, I like to I used tolove that, that's what I love
about mountain biking.
You know, as I get on a mountainbike and it wasn't You can't be
looking at your phone.
Dude, you can't be thinkingabout anything else, you're
(34:08):
gonna smack the tree.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, and so there's somedanger to it, right?
Same thing with like, you know,if I'm on that uh excavator
trying to build a new littletrail or road or something, I'm
like sitting on the edge of afreaking hillside.
I'm like, okay, bro, yeah,where's the track at?
You know, as I'm backing up.
That happened the other day.
Better not be talking, man.
(34:29):
And you better not be thinkingabout you know something else
somebody needs, you know, orthat you have a deadline
looming.
And but I mean, I think thatescape is is really valuable and
people need to find what that isfor them.
You know, it could be a lot ofdifferent things.
SPEAKER_03 (34:43):
Well, I think too, when you do that, sometimes you
do make those creativebreakthroughs 100% because it
even during the activity of whatyou're doing that's not related
to that, it somehow blocks outall the excess shit.
SPEAKER_02 (34:58):
Well, hey, so on that, I have always proven again
and again to myself, myintuition, my gut thought is
always seems to be the rightway.
Oh, I know.
You know, no matter I don'tknow.
I don't even know whatcircumstance that I've that
where if I if I that I shouldnot have listened to it or that
(35:20):
I, you know, was happy that Ichose a different, you know, a
logical reason.
But I think that when we getthat focus out into something
else, our gut and our intuitionis actually working better.
It's starting to grow againinstead of being beaten down by
our logic and reasoning and whatwhat the hell everybody else is
saying.
And expectations of others.
(35:40):
Yeah, and I mean, and and youknow, like a good example that I
had that's been time proven inevery circumstance is I know
that this person is not doing areally great job.
They're not help, they'rehelping not progress in the
company, right?
They need to make a change.
And I'm like, I know that that'sthe right thing to do, but then
my emotions come in.
(36:01):
Oh man, but they're so nice.
I know.
SPEAKER_03 (36:03):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (36:03):
You know, oh you rationalize.
You start rationalizing, you getemotional about it.
You know, well, what's what'sJimmy gonna think about me
letting her go?
Yeah, right.
Sarah gonna think about lettinghim go.
You know, it it's and so youstart allowing all these other
things to compile against it,but the whole time the right
decision.
And the longer you elongate thatdecision, the worse and worse
(36:26):
and worse it gets, and the morecomplex it gets.
SPEAKER_03 (36:28):
Well, I don't know.
Working with software developersand all, but I can tell you,
working with architects andengineers, particularly
engineers, is anytime you wantto follow your intuition or just
do things, they see that asunprofessional or you're a hip
(36:49):
shooter, or you don't know whatyou're doing.
We know how to do it right, youdon't know how to do it right,
but they can't get it in somecases, they can't get things
done.
SPEAKER_04 (37:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (37:01):
I I I I never see enough experimentation and
trying things, yeah, as opposedto coming up with the perfect
solution right out of the boxthe first time because we spent
so much time planning and alongthe way that we know, you know,
it it it kills businesses, Ithink.
(37:22):
Yeah.
Oh, yeah, for sure.
More action, moreexperimentation, more just
trying stuff.
I mean, I think that that's theBut it's looked down on by a lot
of people.
SPEAKER_02 (37:34):
Well, it is, but I think I I do think that that's
where Silicon Valley area hasthe re the biggest reason that
they I mean man, that theirbusiness practices and their
cultural mentality like thatabout testing, trying, getting
to market is like it's such a adifferent scale than every other
business under the sun rightnow.
(37:55):
I mean, because they're willingto take risks and push things
out that are not perfect andthen kind of reiterate,
reiterate.
Yes.
And just and they're alwayslaunching, launching, launching.
Like it's amazing about howtheir speed to market and their
speed to, you know, to evolve islike it's it's you know, it's
something to be uh I mean, youknow, greatly appreciated by
(38:19):
every other type of businessthat's out there.
SPEAKER_03 (38:21):
Well, people do it with their business plans too.
And then instead of starting anddoing something and getting paid
by somebody to do it, they wantto perfect it.
Yeah.
And then they never really getit out of the gate.
Yeah.
unknown (38:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (38:33):
I mean, you know, that that holds a lot of
entrepreneurs.
SPEAKER_02 (38:36):
And I mean, I've I don't know that I don't I don't
know that I've ever reallystarted a business that I
actually planned.
Yeah.
I know, I get it.
I've planned some businesses Inever started, but I don't know
that I've started a businessthat I really planned, you know.
Yeah.
I mean, because a lot of it,again, is the gut.
Like, I mean, like, dude, I knowthere's just like this business,
I know that there's a market.
(38:57):
I know that there's a massiveproblem.
There's one that has to befixed.
I can s I can sense you'veproved it.
I mean technology, the theecosystem continue.
Like when I saw that thing, thatfreaking here's what drives when
I see the freaking stat aboutpodcasts are now have superseded
radio.
And back like in 2009 orsomething, it was saying that it
(39:19):
was only 15% of what radio wasdoing.
And now it's at like 60%.
You know, and so it took allthese years, but it was so
obvious to me.
Like, who wouldn't want to havemore control over what they
listen to?
You know, and the same thing forthe robots.
What robot doesn't want to havenew fresh content that it
hasn't, that their competitiverobots makes total sense haven't
(39:41):
already chomped out and said itmakes it makes absolutely total
sense.
You know, why do we have to waituntil the data gets here to say
that we're right?
But the really the intuition ispretty clear.
SPEAKER_03 (39:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (39:53):
You know, like, and that's why I'm not really afraid
of all this other stuff.
It's like they, you know, youget these stats come out and
these people have opinion, butat the end of the day, like
you're dealing with with humansand you're dealing with robots,
and what do they want?
They want new fresh content.
How do you get that?
SPEAKER_03 (40:09):
Why are you so good at figuring out what the other
guy wants?
Why, why?
I mean, you you constantly goback to that.
Well, I've uh uh you know whatthe customer, what the customer
wants, what the client wants.
Um because I waited tables.
Is that it?
Hell yeah, bro.
Uh huh.
SPEAKER_02 (40:25):
Watch them over there, right?
Dude, I I remember like Iremember being like in the wait
station.
And everybody's fine.
I'd have four tables, but I'djust sit there and I'd watch
them and I'd see them do that.
Uh huh.
I'm like, boom, I'm gonna hitthem up with some more tea.
I'm like, as soon, because youknow, I knew that they're at a
(40:46):
little bit above half.
SPEAKER_03 (40:47):
Yeah, they got some ice in there, and that much
really left.
SPEAKER_02 (40:50):
Yeah, well, I mean, I would catch them when they get
right past that halfway line.
SPEAKER_03 (40:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (40:54):
But if I got them above the halfway line, like
that's a little annoying.
Yeah.
And a little ridiculous.
But below the halfway line, it'slike really good, right?
Yeah, and then I'd watch themtoo.
You know, they'd take theirlast, like they'd be sitting
there eating's, and I'd be like,Eat, you know, take that last
dot, you know.
Boy, I'm gonna come get thatplate, you know.
And as soon as they I'd bewalking over there, drift their
(41:14):
paid their plate out of the way,they'd have a nice clean space.
I mean, so you just observed.
Observed and um and predicted,you know, and and and was just
trying to be at the right placeat the right time, doing the
right thing, you know.
And so, I mean, I think waiting,and then you'd have the checks,
you know, and as soon as, youknow, I knew I knew I could
(41:37):
sense when they're wanting topay their bill and get out of
there, you know.
SPEAKER_03 (41:40):
Drives me crazy when they give you the bill and then
they leave for 30 minutes.
Yeah.
I'm like, service, service,service.
Then I get the bill and thenthey're gone.
I can't pay them.
SPEAKER_02 (41:50):
I wanted people to like have the bet like again, I
would recognize they might spend30 or 50 bucks on that meal.
You know, like that stuff's notlike that's expensive, you know.
I mean, but I mean, I wantedthem just to have this great
experience and I wanted to bepart of that, you know, and I
wanted recognition as well.
I wanted them to leave and tellthe manager, hey man, that
server is ridiculously good,like the best one that you know.
(42:14):
I mean, it's kind ofcompetitive, I guess, in a way,
you know.
Sure.
Um, but a lot of it's fromwaiting tables, man.
SPEAKER_03 (42:19):
Yeah.
Well, whatever it is, it got youunusually tuned in.
Yeah.
You know, I because I don'tthink a lot of business owners
are that good at that.
I think a lot of people, youknow, they do well if they aim a
business at people likethemselves.
All right.
That is one strategy that Ithink is a good strategy because
(42:40):
you understand you and youunderstand what your needs are,
and there's probably otherpeople like you.
Yeah.
So if you design your businessaround you, you, you know,
you're probably going to find acertain market.
Now, not all businesses can bedone like that, obviously.
Right.
Yeah.
And then it takes a better,maybe a higher level of skill to
(43:03):
be able to really understandwhat clients and customers want.
Yeah.
Because you're not always theclient or customer.
SPEAKER_02 (43:11):
No, not at all.
Especially even back at WhiteSpider.
I mean, I've never worked atWalmart or a retailer.
Right.
And I never worked for asupplier as a brand.
But yet I service both of them.
SPEAKER_03 (43:21):
That's why when you first told me you were going to
go after consumer products, I'mlike, why do you want to do
that?
Hell are you going to knowanything about that?
You're an idiot.
Boy, was that ever bad advice.
SPEAKER_02 (43:31):
But it but you can see their pain points.
Like I think it's an easy thingto visualize.
Like they have a lot ofproblems.
They had a lot of problems.
Fix the problems, and it doesn'teven be sexy.
Just fix the productionproblems, make their life a
little bit easier, make itfaster, make it less expensive,
make them a hero.
SPEAKER_03 (43:47):
Let them have a great experience walking off the
table.
Make them a hero inside bigorganizations.
It's a really big deal.
It's a huge, huge deal.
That's a really big deal.
All right, man.
I think we blew past.
Tom.
It's been fun talking though,and I've learned a lot.
SPEAKER_02 (44:03):
And uh and I always do when I talk with you.
Thanks, Mark.
I appreciate that.
And this has been anotherfantastic episode of that Big
Talk about SmallBusiness.com.
SPEAKER_01 (44:22):
Thanks for tuning into this episode of Big Talk
About Small Business.
If you have any questions orideas for upcoming shows, be
sure to head over to ourwebsite,
www.bigtalkaboutsmallbusiness.com,and click on the Ask the Host
button for the chance to haveyour questions answered on the
show.
Stay connected with us onLinkedIn at Big Talk About Small
(44:44):
Business.
And be sure to head over to ourwebsite to read articles, browse
episodes, and ask questionsabout upcoming shows.
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