June 17, 2026 • 56 mins
Selling a business shouldn't cost you your identity. With shifting markets pushing more founders to step away, preparing for the sale is just as critical as preparing for the day after the money clears. Business coach and exit planning expert Renee Russo joins the show to unpack the operational and psychological hurdles of preparing a firm for an acquisition.
We get into the mechanics of making a business portable, the danger of owner dependency in the sales function, and the structural limitations of the seller-doer method. We sit down to explore why only 30% of companies that go to market actually close, and how to spot the readiness illusion before it ruins a deal. Renee shares her realization that the real value of exit planning isn't securing a payout, but preserving your ability to live life by design after the transaction is complete.
Walking away from a company you built from the ground up often triggers a severe transition gap. Founders frequently face isolation, regret, and a total loss of purpose when they lose their wartime CEO status. You will walk away from this conversation with a clear framework for establishing a personal life plan, identifying your actual wealth gap, and learning how to step out of the daily grind without falling apart.
If you care about building a transferable business, navigating post-exit identity, and the practical application of execution systems like EOS, you’ll get a lot from this. Please take a second to subscribe and share this episode with a fellow business owner who needs to hear it. What is the primary operational dependency you need to break before you can step away from your firm?
Subscribe and tune in for new episodes of Big Talk About Small Business with Mark Zweig and Eric Howerton. Each week we focus on practical insights and real-world strategies to grow your business!
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SPEAKER_06 (00:00):
And as they brought him back to life, they set him
(00:02):
up against a concrete wall.
And on the front of his shirtwas a Vince Lombardi quote.
It said, It's not whether youget knocked down, it's whether
you get back up.
That was my wake-up call to goon my own personal
transformation journey.
And what I realized is that Ididn't suck.
(00:22):
I was just stuck in the gap, andI didn't know how to get out.
SPEAKER_02 (00:32):
Hey everybody, we are back today with another
episode of Big Talk About SmallBusiness.
And I have Renee Russo, not theactress Renee Russo, but the
Renee Russo, who is a businesscoach and expert in preparing
(00:52):
firms for sale, among otherthings.
So how's it going, Renee?
SPEAKER_06 (00:58):
Really good.
I'm excited to be here.
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_02 (01:02):
I'm excited to have you here.
So tell us, Ready, a little bitabout yourself.
SPEAKER_06 (01:07):
I'm a former business owner of a small
business in the businesstechnology space.
My husband and I ran thatbusiness, and we experienced all
of the gifts of theentrepreneurial journey.
We had some uh business conflictissues we navigated.
(01:32):
My husband uh had a cancerjourney, we raised a young
family, all these things whiletrying to keep the business
alive.
And at some point, I reached abreaking point and said, we have
to figure out a better way.
Uh so fortunately, I had anaccounting degree and I had a
fascination with how businessworked.
(01:54):
And I learned about operatingsystems methodologies, turned
our business around, andlaunched my coaching practice.
And then some of my clientsstarted to sell their company.
And actually, many of themstarted to sell.
And those that did closesuccessfully thanked me for all
of my hard work to help makethat happen.
(02:14):
And I wasn't connecting the dotsbetween my work in the business
optimization space and the uhexit journey until I had my own
exit.
And so I went through a doubleexit of marriage and business,
learned a lot, uh, and thenbecame an exit planner so that I
could help other business ownersexit their business successfully
(02:36):
and move into the next chapterwith confidence.
That's what I do now.
SPEAKER_02 (02:40):
Wow.
Yeah, I've been through a doubleexit on marriages and
businesses.
So I can I've got, I guess I'vegot a multiplier.
A double double exit.
SPEAKER_05 (02:52):
Well my goodness, teaches you a lot.
SPEAKER_02 (02:55):
It is a learning experience, no question about
it.
So now, how long have you beendoing your thing here with the
helping these other businessowners?
SPEAKER_06 (03:05):
Well, when I say to the world that, you know, I've
been in the business advisoryspace for 20 plus years, people
look at me and they're like,What?
I started my career.
Yeah, I started my career atKPMG as a junior accountant.
And I worked there for a coupleof years, then worked in uh
(03:26):
talent solutions before Ilaunched into my own business
journey.
So 20 years ago, I came toCanada and started this
entrepreneurial journey with myhusband.
And I launched my practice, mycoaching practice as it is now,
or an early version of it, uh,just over 10 years ago.
So there've been a fewiterations.
(03:47):
It's been a while, but every dayI feel like I'm still learning.
SPEAKER_02 (03:51):
That's awesome.
So tell us about some of thecases that you've been involved
with and good and bad.
Tell us a few stories and giveour listeners some lessons to
learn from all this.
SPEAKER_06 (04:06):
You know, there is a case study that I talk about a
lot.
And interestingly, I'm stillworking with the client for uh
almost 10 years.
So this business owner, uh, whenI came into the organization as
the business coach, I implementoperating systems frameworks
like EOS and business bestpractices.
We realized that we had an ownerum dependency problem.
(04:31):
He was in all of the key seatsthat held the business up.
And so we systematically workedtowards building a team,
building a vision, and thatallowed the business to unlock
growth from 13 million to 30million.
Then the business started to hita little bit of a ceiling.
So we upgraded the leadershipteam again, continuing to
(04:55):
decentralize the business owner.
And then he turned to me andsaid, Renee, I want to sell my
company.
And that was when I firstrealized that I didn't have a
game plan for that.
So that's when I got certifiedand became a certified exit
planning advisor with the ExitPlanning Institute.
Uh, and we built a strategy, andI introduced him to MA.
(05:17):
And at that point, everyonethought that my work was over.
So I was kind of pushed to thesides and they went through the
due diligence process, andunfortunately, the business did
not close.
SPEAKER_02 (05:28):
Okay.
SPEAKER_06 (05:29):
The reality is, and what a lot of people in MA space
don't say is that only 30% ofcompanies that go to market
truly close.
SPEAKER_01 (05:38):
Yep.
SPEAKER_06 (05:39):
70% don't.
And it's actually fairly normal.
unknown (05:42):
Sure.
SPEAKER_06 (05:43):
And most businesses fail because of two things.
The business is not ready to betransferred to new ownership,
it's not portable.
SPEAKER_01 (05:53):
Yep.
SPEAKER_06 (05:54):
Andor the business owner is not ready to transition
to what's next.
SPEAKER_01 (06:01):
Yep.
SPEAKER_06 (06:02):
And that was what happened with this business
owner.
He was too uh tied to theday-to-day.
He wasn't ready for what wasnext.
And the business was not able tobe transferred successfully
because of that dependency,particularly in the sales
function.
After that failure, a clientcame back and said, Look, I
(06:24):
think we have more work to do.
And I was, I confirmed we did.
So we reset the leadership teamand reinforce the sales
function.
And now we're on the path to 50million with a part plan to go
back to the market in threeyears, being able to confidently
demonstrate the business is bothattractive and transferable, and
(06:45):
the business owner is ready forwhat's next.
So it's hard to have to learnthe hard way.
SPEAKER_02 (06:51):
Yeah, that's a good story.
And it's not unusual.
I mean, as you said, so manybusinesses suffer from single
person management.
That's always the the start ofthe problem where the owner's
involved in every single thing.
And so certainly that is athat's a common problem.
(07:11):
And then and then you mentionedsales.
I mean, that's that's yetanother one.
I mean, personally, I always tryto create businesses that don't
depend on salespeople.
I'm all about marketing and thephone ringing and having people
who write orders versus salesand trying to do it all through
(07:32):
relationships with high-poweredsalespeople.
The problem I've found there isthat really good salespeople
make a whole lot of money.
A, they're very difficult tofind, and and B, you're
dependent on them then.
When they leave, too much of thebusiness is portable.
SPEAKER_06 (07:49):
Yeah.
And what we notice is that a lotof business owners, that is the
function that they let go oflast.
SPEAKER_01 (07:55):
Yep.
SPEAKER_06 (07:56):
Because that's really like the keys to the
bank.
And so they tend to let go of itlast.
And a lot of the relationshipsin the market are reliant on
them.
You know, depending on whatindustry we're in, my work spans
everything from architecture tomanufacturing to plumbing and
HVAC, like mental clinics, likeanything, really.
(08:18):
The wiring of a well-runbusiness is the same,
irrespective of the industry.
The nuance is very much born outof two things: industry segment
and the exit strategy.
So when we're combining wherewe're actually taking this
business with what the owner'splan is alongside the market
(08:38):
that they're in, uh, we can be alot more strategic.
What I've noticed is a lot of myclients that have a technical
specialty are moving towards thedoer-seller method, which is
born out of the Architecture,Engineering and Construction
Association.
There's a book about it, even.
(09:00):
I would say actually, I'll flipthat around, seller-doer method.
And so the doers?
SPEAKER_02 (09:07):
Not to interrupt you there, Renee, but you know,
that's the industry I spent myentire career in.
So I'm very familiar withexactly what you're talking
about.
SPEAKER_06 (09:16):
Yeah.
And recognize your PMs are thepeople who are going to sell
your project managers andtechnical elevated leaders are
the ones who are going to sellthe work because they know the
work.
SPEAKER_02 (09:27):
Right.
I mean, clients don't want todeal with people who don't know
anything.
That's, you know, you're right.
SPEAKER_06 (09:34):
We have AI now, those frontline salespeople who
are just all talk and sellingthe pitch.
Owners and consumers can getthis information themselves now.
We need the goods, you know, thevalue creators, uh, those are
the people who are going to beable to close the work.
SPEAKER_02 (09:52):
I thought it was interesting too.
You were talking about how thisguy, back on your case, wasn't
ready to sell the firmpsychologically, maybe.
I think, you know, don't youfind often that many of these
business owners, their wholeidentity is wrapped up in that
business?
And to separate from that isextremely difficult for them.
(10:14):
And they think they want to doit, but then as they get closer
to actually doing it, creates alot of anxiety, don't you think?
SPEAKER_06 (10:23):
Totally.
You know, a lot of businessowners come to me and say, I'm
ready to sell my business.
Can you help me?
SPEAKER_04 (10:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (10:29):
And I'm like, oh, interesting.
It sounds like you're ready tostart this conversation to
ensure that you and yourbusiness are ready.
And that readiness illusion issomething that I come across all
the time.
And it is important thatbusiness owners first prioritize
their personal goals and takethe time to re-identify with who
(10:53):
they are, what they want inlife, what's next, for them to
also identify their personalobjectives around financials.
What are their financial needswhen they're no longer trading
time for money?
How do they want to live theirlife?
What are their financial goalsaround wealth transfer to their
children?
So when we understand thepersonal and financial
(11:15):
objectives of the owner, we canthen start to identify their
wealth gap and their needs andopportunity cost of staying in
the business because they have aclear line of sight of what
they're pulling towards.
A lot of business owners thatsay I'm ready are feeling the
push because they're underpressure or they've had enough.
(11:38):
But it's really not that theyare ready, it's they're ready to
start this conversation aboutwhat's next and what they need.
SPEAKER_02 (11:45):
I believe you.
I think that's um it soundssounds again very familiar.
I can't say that's a surprise tohear you say that.
SPEAKER_03 (11:54):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_06 (11:57):
And energy starts moving towards that.
Once the owner is clear aroundabove and beyond, they pull
themselves up out of theirbusiness and they create a clear
path.
Energy starts moving in thatdirection because we have a
alignment around where they'regoing.
Otherwise, they'll stay stuck.
SPEAKER_02 (12:13):
How do you help them figure out what that next thing
is?
SPEAKER_06 (12:18):
Mm-hmm.
At the beginning of the journey,I keep it light.
You know, I just do a little bitof a discovery around who they
are, their stakeholders' family,their bucket list, if they did
sell, what would turn be termsthat they'd want, uh, what are
some big goals they have intheir life.
But uh inside of the engagement,I get very detailed with them.
(12:43):
And so that looks like literallyunderstanding their wealth gap,
establishing a financial plan,de-risking themselves and
getting clear on what they need.
And then a detailed two-pagepersonal plan.
I call it my life design, whereI'm re-identifying my core
values, my purpose, my legacy,my 10-year legacy that I want to
(13:04):
have created, also coined as mysignificant life.
I get them to design literallywhat their life looks like three
years from now, holisticallyacross uh what they're doing
with the in terms of spendingtime with people, their purpose,
their wealth, how they want togrow, and the value they want to
(13:25):
create in the world and theirhealth is really, really
important.
So I get a clear picture threeyears out.
We set goals for the coming yearand identify all the questions
they're not yet askingthemselves, but they should.
And then we work that plan every90 days to systematically move
towards what I call freedom.
(13:46):
And it's the freedom to choosethemselves and live their life
by design.
SPEAKER_02 (13:51):
Very interesting.
What about this uh post-exitidentity crisis?
SPEAKER_04 (13:56):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02 (13:58):
So you could have all the planning in the world,
and maybe things still don'twork out like they wanted, or
maybe they work out like theywanted, but it's not what they
ultimately want.
SPEAKER_06 (14:08):
Mm-hmm.
You know, depending on the typeof exit that a business owner
has, whether it's a voluntary orinvoluntary, can really
determine what that crisis, themagnitude of that crisis looks
like.
If it's involuntary due to a,you know, a death of a
shareholder, a disability, adisagreement, distress or
(14:32):
divorce, um, you know, theseinvoluntary triggers of an exit
can cause catastrophic impact onthe person, the business owner,
because they didn't see itcoming.
If it's a voluntary exit, evenstill, if there's a voluntary
exit where a lot of the peoplein the deal team and that
(14:52):
workflow are focusing on themoney and the mechanics of the
business.
They're not focusing on thehuman being.
Are they going to be okay?
What are they going to do next?
In both of those scenarios,business owners 75% of the time
move into a crisis, a regretfulstate after their exit.
And most of that is born out ofa lack of preparedness and
(15:14):
planning early enough to helpthem figure out who they are,
how they want to live theirlife, and how to make that
happen.
And they get stuck in thistransition gap.
So after they sell, voluntarilyor involuntarily, the space
between that exit and themliving their life by design
(15:38):
whole and intact with themselvesis this transition gap.
And that requires coaching,support, resources.
I get my business owners, as Isaid, to not just have a
two-page personal plan, but90-day goals, an energy
management practice, a personalboard, you know, your key people
(15:59):
that you go out for dinner withor willing to set it to you
straight.
SPEAKER_01 (16:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (16:03):
I do all those things with them to make sure
that life continues on after thebusiness.
They're intact, they're whole,and they know where they're
going and they're supported.
I got stuck in that gap myselfand I hit rock bottom.
I became an alcoholic.
In my double exit, I lost mychildren, my home, my business,
(16:28):
and my identity.
That realization of suddenlyhaving everything that I built
for 15 years vanish because Isimply said, I don't want this
anymore, was so much to bear.
I fell really hard.
Suddenly I had a life and then Ihad no life.
(16:51):
In that struggle, I was downtownin Vancouver feeding people on
the street on Christmas morningin the homeless district.
And my friend and I that werethere, we were leaving.
And as we were leaving, we founda dead man on the street.
I'd seen a dead person in reallife.
(17:14):
We called the paramedics, and itturns out he wasn't fully dead.
He was deeply unconscious.
And as they brought him back tolife, they sat him up against a
concrete wall.
And on the front of his shirtwas a Vince Lombardi quote.
It said, It's not whether youget knocked down, it's whether
you get back up.
(17:36):
That was my wake-up call to goon my own personal
transformation journey.
And what I realized is that Ididn't suck.
I was just stuck in the gap andI didn't know how to get out.
I first started changing mymindset, then my behaviors.
And as my energy increased, Istarted to create more
(18:00):
attraction of resources.
My kids came back, and the lifeI wanted was mine for the
making.
And I discovered that freedomthat I get to choose how I want
to live my life.
Life is not happening to me,it's happening for me.
And I can choose to move fromliving by default to living by
(18:23):
design.
That man gave me a wake-up call.
And every business owner hasthat opportunity.
But it's very hard when you'restuck there.
And that's why early planningmatters most.
SPEAKER_02 (18:36):
Wow, so that is profound that you went through
that.
And I can see why it's soimportant to you, the mission
that you're on now.
You f do you find uh, or howoften do you find, I should say,
uh, that these business owners,after they get out, they've got
their plan, they they doeverything that you tell them to
do to get ready.
(18:56):
They have a successful exit.
Uh you know, they're they'retrying to be their whole self,
doing all the things that yousuggest, not just sitting around
counting their money, but livinglife, okay.
That they decide they want to goback into business.
How often do you find that?
(19:18):
And they're jumping.
SPEAKER_06 (19:20):
Yeah, I don't have the data, but my experience is
eight times out of ten.
SPEAKER_02 (19:26):
Eight times out of ten, there you go.
That's interesting.
I'm not surprised.
Once again, I thinkentrepreneurs, real
entrepreneurs, they can't stop.
It's it's just it's theirnature.
SPEAKER_06 (19:38):
But Mark, what happens I've noticed, is if we
if if if we don't hold thatspace for them to do that
transition work, they end upgoing back and repeating a lot
of patterns from the past.
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (19:55):
We have to hold the space for the transition and the
human transformation work.
I know somebody who literally isin the MA space.
I think she's a coach.
She had a very successfulmarketing agency in New York and
has an epic exit story.
(20:15):
And she didn't hold that space.
She went straight into creatingsomething new, where she's a her
organization coaches otherentrepreneurs and doubled down
and moved into the MA space aswell.
Busier than ever, more out ofbalance than ever, but didn't
create the space to learn fromher own transition journey,
(20:37):
transformation journey, andreally come into that wisdom.
But I believe in life we're onthis journey to find and become
ourselves and come home toourselves.
Now, business owners have anaddiction to money and success
(20:59):
and the vices that often preventthem from doing this work.
And the cycle tends to repeat ifwe don't have an interrupting
moment and the resources or helpto help really embody the growth
that can come from thosetransition journeys.
(21:20):
We all go through transitions.
I have a puppy that I'm lettingin and out here.
Um we all go through transitionprocesses.
For example, we raise kids, thenwe become an empty nester.
That's a transition process.
And a lot of people don'trecognize the opportunity to do
(21:41):
personal development work there.
They just get busy doing otherthings.
So I think that there's anopportunity there to slow down,
to go fast, to hold the space.
And that's why having a resourcewho's guided the exit and who
can support and research.
Source that space after thecelebrations, after the money is
(22:06):
in the bank, and hold the linefor the business owner to be
able to do their own personalregroup and transformation work.
Those are the professionals thatI feel like stand out.
Those are the market leaders whoare willing to see things beyond
just the bank account.
And that's what I do.
(22:27):
Other growth advisors that Iwork alongside, we do that.
We are there from three to fiveyears before a transaction,
through the transaction to thepost-transaction era, and we
quarterback the resources, theadvisors, the support and the
process that helps the businessowner walk to their destiny.
SPEAKER_02 (22:50):
How do you guys get paid for what you do?
Is it you charge by the hour?
Do you charge by the year?
Well, how do you do it?
I'm just curious.
SPEAKER_06 (23:00):
So I've been studying the business of exit
planning while also in thebusiness.
And I've kept my model verynimble so that I can learn.
And nothing worse than buildingout an advisory practice and
realize it's not relevant in themarket.
And the business landscape ischanging.
So I've stayed nimble by design.
(23:20):
What I have discovered is thatwe need to reduce the barriers
to entry.
So some people in my professioncharge a lot of money upfront
for an in like an investigativereport analysis and a strategic
plan.
My clients, I noticed that diddo that, didn't get a lot of
value.
(23:41):
What they got the value from wasthe execution, the month over
month, quarter over quartersupport, coordinating the
meetings, measuring the growth,and managing the deliverables.
And so now I just move straightinto month over month.
I do not ask for a piece of thepie when they do sell.
(24:02):
I don't ask for phantom shares.
I don't take equity.
I stay focused on the valuecreation, and my clients are in
a month-over-month engagement.
No big cost to do business withme up front.
With the age of AI now, it isamazing what a business owner
can discover about themselvesand their business on Claude or
(24:23):
OpenAI or Grok.
So I think we have to getsmarter.
And I know what business ownersstruggle with most is the
execution of the plan.
They can have all the plans theywant, but it's the execution.
And people who are good at that,such as myself, that's where the
value is created.
SPEAKER_02 (24:43):
How do you grow your own business?
I mean, how do you avoid being avictim of exactly what you're
helping your clients with?
SPEAKER_06 (24:55):
Yeah, but you have to practice what we preach.
You're spot on.
So one of the pitfalls of uh theindependent practitioner model
or the micro firm model is thatyou are the product.
SPEAKER_01 (25:07):
Yep.
SPEAKER_06 (25:09):
Right.
So I was a former EOSimplementer, a franchise holder,
and all that model would allowme to simply trade my time for
money, and that's it.
If I wasn't in the session roomwith a client, I wasn't earning
money.
The more I got educated aboutvalue creation, the more I
realized I needed to go andbuild a firm of my own.
(25:32):
There are five things that everymicro firm practitioner needs to
be in practicing to ensure thattheir business is scalable and
not dependent exclusively onthem.
And this was born out ofprobably 300 conversations with
fellow advisors in the ExitPlanning Institute community.
(25:54):
You need very strongpositioning, understanding who
your ICP is, who that targetmarket customer is, and how you
serve them.
Trying to help everybody willkill your business.
Plan.
You also need a personal plan,financial plan, and a business
plan that is in alignment.
We have to practice what wepreach.
(26:17):
Process.
Simple, repeatable process thatanybody who's got business
background, a former businessowner who's been through an exit
can replicate.
So a simple, clean, repeatableprocess.
This was the next one, thenumber four is platforms.
That's where I got stuck.
(26:38):
I was trying to use all thisfancy software to run these
engagements and lost a handle onmy process.
And so when you get your techstack right and you've got an
engagement platform that I useone called Propel Your Business,
it creates a front of house formy firm.
So clients can come in andinterface with it.
(27:00):
Advisors can come in andinterface with it.
And it's not all dependent on medoing the work.
And then partners.
My work is scaled by the extentof my partnership ecosystem.
I bring together advisor teams,legal, accounting, wealth
managers, MA practitioners,personal coaches.
(27:21):
I bring together the advisor.
So I scale with a tight processon clean tech with the right
partners and a repeatableframework that anybody can pick
up, almost a franchisable modeland replicate.
So when I have needs, I justbring on a new advisor onto my
platform, train them in mymethod, and I can see everything
(27:43):
that's taking place on myplatform.
That's how I scale.
SPEAKER_02 (27:46):
Well, yeah, that's I'd say that's a much more
organized than typicalsub-practitioner who does what
you do.
SPEAKER_06 (27:55):
Somebody asked me recently why I'm so impactful
with business owners.
And I say, Well, I am a formerbusiness owner myself.
They're like, Well, how can Ibecome impactful even if I'm not
a business owner?
I'm an advisor.
And I said, Well, you just needto become a business owner.
Treat your business like yourpractice like a business.
SPEAKER_02 (28:13):
Yeah.
That's a problem I have with alot of coaches, I'll be honest
with you.
Ones that have just been throughcoach training, but they never
had a business.
I I think it's very difficultfor them to truly identify with
their clients and what they'regoing through.
Don't you?
SPEAKER_06 (28:32):
I think so too.
And you know, I learned one, uhI was a former yoga teacher and
I had a yoga studio, and I wentto prenatal yoga, and you're
probably thinking to yourself,where is she going?
I went to prenatal yogatraining.
And in that training, there weremany people who had never had a
baby who were getting trained todeliver prenatal yoga.
(28:57):
And they actually put their handup and said, I don't know if I
can do this because I've neverbeen pregnant and I've never
felt what it is like to bepregnant.
Therefore, I don't know if I canteach it.
And a profound moment happenedthere.
The teacher said, Can you be acompassionate witness to what
someone is moving through withempathy, care, attention, and
(29:21):
guidership?
Can you do that?
And these people said yes.
And she turned to them and shethey and she said, then you can
be a prenatal yoga teacher, evenif you've never been pregnant.
I believe advisors can bepowerful with business owners if
they're willing to step out frombehind the desk and sit in the
(29:42):
trench with the business owner,sit in the discomfort, not have
all the answers, but know how toask the right questions.
Show empathy, care, attention,and good guidership with a
proven process, and just becurious every step of the way.
I can say everything that I knownow has been bought out or born
(30:03):
out of my own experience andworking with clients, not from
textbooks.
So if they're willing to be ahuman advisor, they can be
profoundly impactful, evenpotentially.
Mark, like you and I are good,but we got scar tissue.
We've got some like bad habitsthat we've learned from our
business ownership journey,things that we've maybe
normalized.
(30:23):
The advisor can be objective,but they have to be human first.
SPEAKER_02 (30:28):
I probably have a lot more of those bad habits
than you.
You seem like you're sodisciplined over there.
Wow.
SPEAKER_06 (30:37):
I was an athlete growing up.
And you know, statistics saythat 95% of executives in North
America, uh, of a research studywas recently done, were former
team sport athletes.
SPEAKER_02 (30:52):
Yes.
unknown (30:52):
I believe.
SPEAKER_06 (30:53):
So I've got a daughter who's in hockey, and
I'm like, girl, you stay inhockey and you're gonna make it
to the top in the corporateworld or in the entrepreneurial
world.
SPEAKER_02 (31:01):
So you know, that's interesting though that they say
that.
And and that don't take this thewrong way when I say it, because
I think the facts would bear itout.
I think a lot of women,unfortunately, did not have
those experiences in sports, forexample.
Many played sort of moreindividualistic sports if they
(31:22):
played sports, rather than onteams like so many male sports
are.
Now, obviously, some do.
Some play basketball and soccerand hockey and lacrosse and all
these other things that are teamsports, but it's you know, it's
not that often.
More often than not, they'regymnasts and swimmers and if you
(31:43):
look in, I mean, I'm in Canada.
SPEAKER_06 (31:46):
Uh so I grew up in Australia and uh through team
sports are like you're it's partof the DNA.
Yeah, everything is a teamsport.
Uh, even golf is a team sport,swimming is a team sport, like
everything they do things in coin collectives down there a lot.
And if you're not doing a sport,you're kind of weird as growing
up.
It's like strange that you'renot in sports.
(32:08):
Canada, I would say I've noticedover the last 10 to 15 years,
there's been an uprising of teamsports, particularly a lot of in
the last five years, investmentin female sport programs.
My daughter plays ice hockey.
So I watch it.
It's a very high and volleyballuh in the offseason.
(32:30):
Those two sports are the aregetting so much investment
because organizations,corporations know that their
future leaders are currently onthe court or on the field or on
the ice, and they're investingthere, and I think it's smart.
SPEAKER_02 (32:45):
That's very interesting.
I like that.
Yeah, I played ice hockeymyself.
So nice.
Good for your daughter.
That's awesome.
SPEAKER_06 (32:53):
Yeah, my boys are going into trades.
They played hockey previously aswell.
Okay.
Um, one's going into electrical,and one's going into plumbing,
and they just graduate thisweek.
SPEAKER_02 (33:02):
Awesome.
I mean, we need so many moretradespeople.
And the fact is, you can dounbelievably well.
It's such a great basis forbeing a business owner.
SPEAKER_06 (33:12):
You know, my push there was with the role of AI,
the changing landscape of theworkforce, so many unknown
things, you know, anythingmechanical, manual, uh, was a
priority.
So what I I actually just wantedto loop that back around.
So I get asked a lot about therole of the AI in my profession.
(33:33):
And a lot of the advisor space,from accountants to lawyers and
financial advisors, people arelooking to that, those
industries and asking, whatvalue do they bring in the new
world of AI?
And business owners have so muchinformation now, more than ever,
which I think is has its prosand its cons as well.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (33:52):
Yes.
SPEAKER_06 (33:53):
What business owners need now more than ever is in
all the noise, all the chaos,and all the information that
they have, they need a guide.
They need a human-centered guidewho's in their corner, who will
call them out if they need to,is in their corner, seeing the
big picture and guiding theprocess.
Because business owners who aregoing on their succession
(34:14):
journey typically have neverbeen there before.
And if I ask a business owner,would you go and climb Mount
Everest alone?
And they're like, No.
Would you just decide to go andjust go and do it?
They're like, no.
I'd I asked them what they do.
They say they would prepare.
(34:35):
I'm like, oh, that'sinteresting.
And they'd go with a group withsupport of others, and they'd
have a guide.
And I'm like, so you do that ifyou were climbing Mount Everest.
Let's now talk about yourbusiness.
Let's talk about your successionjourney, preparation.
(34:55):
Go together and go with a guide.
That's what's going to get youto your destiny.
SPEAKER_02 (35:03):
You know, how I'm just curious, how do your
clients find you?
I should say.
Because my guess is if they getif you get in front of them and
you get a chance to have a realconversation with them, they're
probably going to want to hireyou.
I say your I my guess is yourclose rate is super high.
(35:23):
But how do you get your clientsfor your business?
SPEAKER_06 (35:27):
Mm-hmm.
The best source is from anexisting client who's looking at
their friend, fellow businessowner, and says, I don't want
them to suffer in the darkanymore.
Enough is enough.
They need help.
SPEAKER_02 (35:41):
Right.
SPEAKER_06 (35:42):
That is the best source.
The trust transfer on a scale ofone to 10 is like a nine out of
10.
SPEAKER_01 (35:48):
Sure.
SPEAKER_06 (35:49):
The next best category is the MA advisor.
MA advisors who have been around10 plus years have typically 10
years worth of business ownersthey've talked to, and maybe 1%
of them they've actuallytransacted.
So they have a very deepdatabase of business owners who
at one point have put up theirhand and said, I want to sell,
(36:13):
and the MA advisor has said,you're not ready, or the
business is not ready, or goaway and come back, but they
don't have anywhere to sendthem.
And so MA is a if if I get theright MA relationship, they look
at their portfolio of theirpipeline and they're like, I
(36:33):
don't want that person to sit inthe dark anymore.
I want them to be able to moveforward.
So MA uh advisors are anotherreally good source.
I do a lot of talks, I do a lotof podcasts, a lot of talks, and
people that think, oh, you mustlike close a lot of business.
And I'm like, no, it's justsimply education.
Because I'm talking aboutproblems business owners don't
(36:56):
know that they have.
A future that is not real tothem.
And two very sensitive topics,even more sensitive than
politics and religion, it'smoney and mortality.
And so I'm doing tur talks tojust turn the lights on and
start them asking deeperquestions.
(37:21):
My close rate from talks iszero.
I actually implore them to notseek to work to meet with me
until they take some time tothink about these questions,
talk to their existing advisors,and start to ask themselves,
what do I want?
And that takes time.
Business owners, people thinkthey're selfish.
(37:42):
People think owners like you,Mark, we make sales and that all
goes straight into your personalbank account, and they have no
idea of the struggle and theself-sacrifice that business
owners go through on a dailybasis.
Everybody else gets to go homeand you don't.
Their ability to put themselvesfirst, actually, in my
(38:04):
experience, is very low.
And it takes time to get them tothe table where they're ready to
really start this work.
So I have a fairly high successrate, but I have a very focused
niche ICP.
My ideal client profile isclear.
And when I'm not the person towork with them, I refer them to
(38:26):
my peers.
I actually turned my businessinto an academy to train other
advisors to do this work betterbecause they've got the theory
and they've got the experience.
They just struggle with theexecution.
And so I have advisors in myreach and I feed them work
because I believe togethercollectively we can have a lot
(38:47):
more impact than I can havealone.
SPEAKER_02 (38:50):
Yeah.
Wow, that's great.
So um do you find uh back on thesellers for a minute?
You you talk about uh you knowthe the two um sacred subjects
um money and what was the otherone?
SPEAKER_06 (39:09):
Mortality.
SPEAKER_02 (39:10):
Mortality, yeah.
I I find that a lot ofentrepreneurs, as odd as it is,
the money's really not the mostimportant thing to them at all.
It's it it is a byproduct, butthen at the same time when they
want to go sell their business,they think it's worth three
times what it really is.
Do you do you find that?
SPEAKER_06 (39:31):
They typically entrepreneurs have uh most of
the entrepreneurs that I meethave a complex relationship with
money born out of theirformative years of childhood.
SPEAKER_02 (39:45):
Boy, right on with that.
SPEAKER_06 (39:47):
So when I start talking with a business owner,
sometimes it takes me 10 yearsto get a business owner to a
point where I'm like, they'relike, one of my former clients
from seven years ago, no, eightyears ago, reached out and said,
I'm ready to have thisconversation, Renee.
So um I got I get every businessowner to tell me in the first
(40:09):
conversation who they are, wherethey grew up, what it was like,
what they learned, what hardshipthey had, like all these things.
And people say, Well, this isthe most weird sales call I've
ever had.
I'm like, it's not a sales call.
It's an invitation to get toknow yourself because the more
you get to know yourself, yourneeds, your motivations, like
Maslow's hierarchy of needs, Ican I can assess where the gaps
(40:33):
are, where the needs are, andpsychologically understand the
level of readiness, willingness,and ableness to do this work.
Uh but the the complexity thereis like we don't care about the
money, it's about the meaning.
But when it comes to the crunch,we do care about the money, and
then some days we do, and thensome days we don't.
And where is it all coming from?
Because we have a complexrelationship.
(40:55):
And that's why MA people like orpeople like me in the process,
because I'm managing the numberone risk, the business owner.
unknown (41:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (41:08):
And that is unique to every business owner.
But most of them got kicked outof the home at like 17 years
old.
Parents said you're on your ownnow, or their dad went bankrupt,
uh, you know, was their primaryincome bearer went bankrupt, or
they came from poverty, um, orhad it all, lost it all.
(41:31):
Like they've got some kind ofthing there.
And I go looking for that.
I need to understand that.
Boy, you're right on with that.
When we're at we're backed upagainst the wall and we're
moving into the unknown, allthat stuff shows up, all that
trauma, unaddressed stuff showsup, and I need to be ready for
(41:54):
it.
I'm not a therapist.
SPEAKER_02 (41:57):
You're not?
I mean, you seem like one.
You get into the weeds withthese people.
SPEAKER_06 (42:03):
I mean, yeah, yeah.
People ask me, am I concernedabout you know, client churn?
I would say my clients neverreally leave.
They just sometimes go on longtrips and then they come back.
And this is a lifelong journey.
So I think what is alsoimportant you asked earlier
about scale.
(42:24):
It's not about volume of clientsthat you work with in my type of
work.
SPEAKER_04 (42:28):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_06 (42:29):
It's about the depth of those relationships.
And it is important that therebe a value exchange.
What makes this work challengingto price out is that there are
so few people that do it, theycan't shop this around.
unknown (42:45):
Right?
SPEAKER_02 (42:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (42:46):
So that's why you got to take the time to get to
know them, have a process thatyou can write on the back of a
napkin, and then create theinvitation for them to simply,
Mark, choose themselves.
That's all they're really doinghere is saying that I matter.
(43:06):
I am ready to prioritize myneeds and wants and to begin
this journey, really ultimatelyhome to themselves.
Because at the end of the lineof life, the money doesn't
matter.
But meaningfulness does.
And that's why we have to takethe time to get to know them.
SPEAKER_08 (43:27):
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SPEAKER_02 (43:42):
Wow, I wish I had had you around 20 something
years ago the first time I soldmy business.
SPEAKER_06 (43:54):
But sometimes I'm not the person that is the
friend.
Sometimes I'm like Dave.
We're not doing that.
Dave's like, yes, we are.
I'm like, no, we're not doingthat.
And I present back all thethings Dave's told me, the
former conversations.
So I'm not always the mostpopular person in the room, but
I'm necessary.
SPEAKER_02 (44:14):
Now you're starting to sound like my wife.
I mean, it took me three triesto get that.
She's still like, no, not doingthat.
Yeah.
Uh, but no, I I hear what you'resaying, and and I believe that's
true.
But um, but yeah, I mean, Ithink from my own experience, I
made a lot of the mistakesyou're talking about.
I rushed right back into doingsomething else.
(44:34):
And I did repeat many of thesame mistakes.
And, you know, I've done thismore than once.
So, like you said, I mean, it itit's hard when you're used to
constantly being under the fire.
If nothing else, that's anaddiction.
Dopamine is a good thing.
You keep putting yourself intothat situation and then you
(44:55):
survive.
It's like, hey, I pulled offanother one, you know.
SPEAKER_06 (45:00):
I call it the wartime CEO.
unknown (45:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (45:04):
But in peacetime, he doesn't know what to do with
himself.
SPEAKER_02 (45:07):
Exactly.
You may not get really where youwant to go doing that.
You could certainly spend yourlife doing that and and convince
yourself that you're beinguseful in the process.
And maybe you do make money andall those other things, but it's
not necessarily what's best foryou ultimately, as you say, to
get to your desired end state.
(45:32):
You know, you've got someterminology for that.
I want to change the subject fora minute, though, back to
something you mentioned earlier.
Um, and and in this one, I I Ireally hopefully you can give me
some honest opinion on EOS.
And I'm gonna tell you how Ifeel about it first, and then
you can tell me why I'm wrong orwhether there's any truth to my
(45:54):
thinking.
I think it's all bullshit.
SPEAKER_06 (45:56):
I actually hope that we record this and send it.
I have a call with leadership intwo weeks' time.
So I'm I'm excited about thisconversation.
SPEAKER_02 (46:05):
Okay.
Well, I think it's a lot of it'sbullshit.
Um, I've seen lots of EOSimplementers, I've seen lots of
companies implement.
They have tons of meetings, theyhave lots of terminology for
their rocks and for all thisother stuff.
It's real catchy.
And in the end, they spend somuch time and effort on this
(46:29):
process that it becomes likethey get mired down in the
molasses.
It's it's the opposite ofentrepreneurial, in my opinion.
At least that's how I've seenit.
I can't claim to have seen anytremendous successes.
I've seen very longimplementations that were
(46:50):
eventually abandoned in manycases.
And yet everybody, you know.
Uh not everybody, a lot ofpeople act as if this is like
the savior for everything inbusiness is EOS.
It's kind of like good to great,you know, it's like a Bible.
(47:11):
This Patrick, what's it,Lencioni or however it's
pronounced.
SPEAKER_06 (47:15):
Kim Collins and Patrick Lencioni, Michael
Gerber, like all thesephilosophies, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (47:20):
Exactly.
Yeah.
And and anyway, what you youwere an EOS implementer.
You've obviously gone beyondthat with your whole thing that
you're doing now, which is in mymind it's a lot more holistic
and wider ranging.
SPEAKER_06 (47:37):
Yeah.
Excellent.
Okay, rapid fire.
Ready?
SPEAKER_02 (47:40):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (47:42):
When EOS was originally built, the model of
the implementer was for thepost-exit business owner to have
something meaningful that theycould do to help other business
owners.
SPEAKER_01 (47:53):
Okay.
SPEAKER_06 (47:53):
Okay.
So that was our ICP for theimplementer.
It's gone a lot wider than that.
SPEAKER_01 (47:59):
Yes, it has.
SPEAKER_06 (48:00):
Right?
SPEAKER_01 (48:01):
Yes.
SPEAKER_06 (48:02):
So I'll keep that there.
Um, those books, Gerber,Lincioni, Collins, uh, Covey,
all those things are great intheory, but what owners and
teams struggle with isexecution.
unknown (48:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (48:14):
All Gino did was uh design an execution system to
create a 90-day world whereenergy was moving towards a
vision, there wasaccountability, execution on
priorities, we're measuring themost important things, and we're
having meetings to solve issuesand drive execution.
So we created an executionsystem, which I think is genius.
(48:36):
I this is the way I work.
So, like Gino's mind and mywork, we're constantly making
models to drive execution,better results, and so forth.
So the science of it ismagnificent.
Even though I am no longer afranchisee, at a baseline, I
require my clients to implementor have EOS because I ain't
(48:58):
going in there every day.
But I need the lights on, I needa clear structure, I need a
vision that the owners andoperators are in line with, the
right people in the team.
If I can't see into the team, Icannot determine if we've got
the right people on the bus ornot.
And are they actually going tomake it through the transaction?
EOS turns the lights on, createsa system at a foundation, and
(49:22):
actually is a baseline for valuecreation.
I build six layers of value ontop of EOS.
So I've required at a minimum.
It's an execution system thatdrives change, unlocks growth.
Now, back to the first point.
When we have people who areimplementing EOS who are perhaps
not former business owners ornot trained to think like a
(49:46):
business owner, it can tend tobecome a focus on retaining the
client and preserving therevenue as opposed to adopting
entrepreneurial thinking byreally going in and changing the
game for the business owner andtheir team.
SPEAKER_02 (50:02):
Okay.
That that I makes a lot of senseto me because I've seen a lot of
that out there.
SPEAKER_06 (50:10):
I'm going to keep going.
Can I interrupt you?
It's your portion, yeah.
24 months to mastery, we shouldbe at 80% or stronger in 24
months if we're doing our jobwell.
SPEAKER_02 (50:21):
Okay.
SPEAKER_06 (50:21):
The client is intended to graduate, move into
independence, and embed the EOSinto their DNA.
So we're not even talking aboutEOS, we're just running our
business with more discipline.
So the expectation is you willbe graduating and constantly
working with new teams becauseyou're imp when you're
implementing an ERP or a CRMsoftware in your company, does
(50:45):
that go on perpetually?
No, you implement, adopt, andintegrate.
So you're not supposed to beworking with the implementer
indefinitely.
However, if the company'sacquiring and bringing on new
companies, spinning off, movesto an acquisition and goes
through different major lifecycle shifts, absolutely the
(51:06):
implementer may be value addedalong the way.
The other piece here is that wehave got so focused on learning
the science of it, we've lostthe art of it.
So with science is everybodyneeds to be in a meeting and
everybody needs a measurable andall these things.
So we often over-engineer EOS inthe business.
(51:30):
Okay.
So the implementer needs tounderstand the size and scale
and journey of that business,really right-size EOS for that
company, and recognize pullingthe entire production staff off
the floor for a level 10 isludicrous.
But there are meeting rhythmsthat we can have, ways that we
(51:53):
can cascade information, butthere's nuance, and the
implementer needs to work withthe team to really make EOS
their own rather than being hardand fast regimented.
So we can avoid the excess andmake it their own.
But the biggest thing, Mark,that I learned, and the reason
why I stepped out for a periodof time, and I'm not saying I
(52:13):
would never go back.
Those are some of theconversations that I'm having
coming up.
But the biggest miss, in myopinion, is we're not having the
most important conversation.
What does the owner want?
My work carves out the owner'sbox, sits with the owner there,
(52:36):
builds the plan, and aligns theteam with it.
It's their business, it's theirfuture.
SPEAKER_02 (52:44):
Right.
SPEAKER_06 (52:44):
And the owners and operators have to align.
SPEAKER_02 (52:52):
You can use EOS.
You can also have a really goodstrategic planning process in my
mind that's going to do a lot ofthese things.
But, you know, when it comes tothat, I mean, you're right on
with that, because I alwaysthought it was absurd when I'd
see companies that are likegoing out to their employees and
asking them what the vision forthe company should be.
(53:13):
If the owners don't know that,what how in the world are your
employees going to tell youthat?
SPEAKER_05 (53:18):
It's like asking the kids, how should we live our
life?
Yeah, exactly.
Parents are in charge.
SPEAKER_02 (53:24):
It's it's so true.
Wow.
Well, it's really beeninteresting talking with you,
Renee.
And um, I can see why you'reeffective.
Uh uh you have a uh a very clearway of communicating in uh real
(53:44):
words that don't sound like BS.
And I can tell you've had a lotof experience that's valuable,
and uh I'm sure you provide alot of value to your clients.
If somebody does want to learnmore about you or reach out to
you, where do they find you?
SPEAKER_06 (54:04):
LinkedIn is a place that I exist uh on a weekly
basis.
So Renee Russo Rise Up BC onthere.
Uh my website is riseupbc.com.
Uh and so uh the fastest way isprobably LinkedIn.
Uh but you can contact me byemail from the website as well.
(54:28):
There is a book that I wouldrecommend every business owner
read, and it's called Walking toDestiny.
And it outlines the inevit uh 11essential things that every
business owner must do to ensurethat they are free to walk to
their destiny and live theirlife by design.
It covers the personal planning,financial planning, and business
(54:48):
planning, what to expect fromyour advisor ecosystem, and how
to create the execution systemto get there.
Yes, you'll need a guide, andcertified exit planning advisors
are certified in that method.
Uh, people like me, specificallyquarterback the entirety of
that.
And uh every business owner, Ijust encourage you to recognize
(55:10):
that if you don't matter,nothing matters.
Everything you need reallystarts with asking yourself
important questions.
Who am I?
What do I want?
Where am I going?
And then looking at the businessthrough that lens.
Because if you don't matter,nothing matters.
SPEAKER_02 (55:29):
It's awesome.
All right.
Well, hey, it's been greathaving you on the show here.
I hope we get a chance to talkagain sometime.
And uh I wish you the very best.
And clearly you're helping manypeople, and that's a noble
endeavor.
SPEAKER_06 (55:45):
Thank you.
So I'm very thankful for thisopportunity.
SPEAKER_02 (55:49):
Thank you.
And uh so everybody, I guessthis concludes another episode
of Big Talk About SmallBusiness.com.
SPEAKER_00 (56:07):
Thanks for tuning into this episode of Big Talk
About Small Business.
If you have any questions orideas for upcoming shows, be
sure to head over to ourwebsite,
www.bigtalkaboutsmallbusiness.com,and click on the Ask the Host
button for the chance to haveyour questions answered on the
show.
Stay connected with us onLinkedIn at Big Talk About Small
(56:28):
Business.
And be sure to head over to ourwebsite to read articles, browse
episodes, and ask questionsabout upcoming shows.
And as they brought him back to life, they set him
(00:02):
up against a concrete wall.
And on the front of his shirtwas a Vince Lombardi quote.
It said, It's not whether youget knocked down, it's whether
you get back up.
That was my wake-up call to goon my own personal
transformation journey.
And what I realized is that Ididn't suck.
(00:22):
I was just stuck in the gap, andI didn't know how to get out.
SPEAKER_02 (00:32):
Hey everybody, we are back today with another
episode of Big Talk About SmallBusiness.
And I have Renee Russo, not theactress Renee Russo, but the
Renee Russo, who is a businesscoach and expert in preparing
(00:52):
firms for sale, among otherthings.
So how's it going, Renee?
SPEAKER_06 (00:58):
Really good.
I'm excited to be here.
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_02 (01:02):
I'm excited to have you here.
So tell us, Ready, a little bitabout yourself.
SPEAKER_06 (01:07):
I'm a former business owner of a small
business in the businesstechnology space.
My husband and I ran thatbusiness, and we experienced all
of the gifts of theentrepreneurial journey.
We had some uh business conflictissues we navigated.
(01:32):
My husband uh had a cancerjourney, we raised a young
family, all these things whiletrying to keep the business
alive.
And at some point, I reached abreaking point and said, we have
to figure out a better way.
Uh so fortunately, I had anaccounting degree and I had a
fascination with how businessworked.
(01:54):
And I learned about operatingsystems methodologies, turned
our business around, andlaunched my coaching practice.
And then some of my clientsstarted to sell their company.
And actually, many of themstarted to sell.
And those that did closesuccessfully thanked me for all
of my hard work to help makethat happen.
(02:14):
And I wasn't connecting the dotsbetween my work in the business
optimization space and the uhexit journey until I had my own
exit.
And so I went through a doubleexit of marriage and business,
learned a lot, uh, and thenbecame an exit planner so that I
could help other business ownersexit their business successfully
(02:36):
and move into the next chapterwith confidence.
That's what I do now.
SPEAKER_02 (02:40):
Wow.
Yeah, I've been through a doubleexit on marriages and
businesses.
So I can I've got, I guess I'vegot a multiplier.
A double double exit.
SPEAKER_05 (02:52):
Well my goodness, teaches you a lot.
SPEAKER_02 (02:55):
It is a learning experience, no question about
it.
So now, how long have you beendoing your thing here with the
helping these other businessowners?
SPEAKER_06 (03:05):
Well, when I say to the world that, you know, I've
been in the business advisoryspace for 20 plus years, people
look at me and they're like,What?
I started my career.
Yeah, I started my career atKPMG as a junior accountant.
And I worked there for a coupleof years, then worked in uh
(03:26):
talent solutions before Ilaunched into my own business
journey.
So 20 years ago, I came toCanada and started this
entrepreneurial journey with myhusband.
And I launched my practice, mycoaching practice as it is now,
or an early version of it, uh,just over 10 years ago.
So there've been a fewiterations.
(03:47):
It's been a while, but every dayI feel like I'm still learning.
SPEAKER_02 (03:51):
That's awesome.
So tell us about some of thecases that you've been involved
with and good and bad.
Tell us a few stories and giveour listeners some lessons to
learn from all this.
SPEAKER_06 (04:06):
You know, there is a case study that I talk about a
lot.
And interestingly, I'm stillworking with the client for uh
almost 10 years.
So this business owner, uh, whenI came into the organization as
the business coach, I implementoperating systems frameworks
like EOS and business bestpractices.
We realized that we had an ownerum dependency problem.
(04:31):
He was in all of the key seatsthat held the business up.
And so we systematically workedtowards building a team,
building a vision, and thatallowed the business to unlock
growth from 13 million to 30million.
Then the business started to hita little bit of a ceiling.
So we upgraded the leadershipteam again, continuing to
(04:55):
decentralize the business owner.
And then he turned to me andsaid, Renee, I want to sell my
company.
And that was when I firstrealized that I didn't have a
game plan for that.
So that's when I got certifiedand became a certified exit
planning advisor with the ExitPlanning Institute.
Uh, and we built a strategy, andI introduced him to MA.
(05:17):
And at that point, everyonethought that my work was over.
So I was kind of pushed to thesides and they went through the
due diligence process, andunfortunately, the business did
not close.
SPEAKER_02 (05:28):
Okay.
SPEAKER_06 (05:29):
The reality is, and what a lot of people in MA space
don't say is that only 30% ofcompanies that go to market
truly close.
SPEAKER_01 (05:38):
Yep.
SPEAKER_06 (05:39):
70% don't.
And it's actually fairly normal.
unknown (05:42):
Sure.
SPEAKER_06 (05:43):
And most businesses fail because of two things.
The business is not ready to betransferred to new ownership,
it's not portable.
SPEAKER_01 (05:53):
Yep.
SPEAKER_06 (05:54):
Andor the business owner is not ready to transition
to what's next.
SPEAKER_01 (06:01):
Yep.
SPEAKER_06 (06:02):
And that was what happened with this business
owner.
He was too uh tied to theday-to-day.
He wasn't ready for what wasnext.
And the business was not able tobe transferred successfully
because of that dependency,particularly in the sales
function.
After that failure, a clientcame back and said, Look, I
(06:24):
think we have more work to do.
And I was, I confirmed we did.
So we reset the leadership teamand reinforce the sales
function.
And now we're on the path to 50million with a part plan to go
back to the market in threeyears, being able to confidently
demonstrate the business is bothattractive and transferable, and
(06:45):
the business owner is ready forwhat's next.
So it's hard to have to learnthe hard way.
SPEAKER_02 (06:51):
Yeah, that's a good story.
And it's not unusual.
I mean, as you said, so manybusinesses suffer from single
person management.
That's always the the start ofthe problem where the owner's
involved in every single thing.
And so certainly that is athat's a common problem.
(07:11):
And then and then you mentionedsales.
I mean, that's that's yetanother one.
I mean, personally, I always tryto create businesses that don't
depend on salespeople.
I'm all about marketing and thephone ringing and having people
who write orders versus salesand trying to do it all through
(07:32):
relationships with high-poweredsalespeople.
The problem I've found there isthat really good salespeople
make a whole lot of money.
A, they're very difficult tofind, and and B, you're
dependent on them then.
When they leave, too much of thebusiness is portable.
SPEAKER_06 (07:49):
Yeah.
And what we notice is that a lotof business owners, that is the
function that they let go oflast.
SPEAKER_01 (07:55):
Yep.
SPEAKER_06 (07:56):
Because that's really like the keys to the
bank.
And so they tend to let go of itlast.
And a lot of the relationshipsin the market are reliant on
them.
You know, depending on whatindustry we're in, my work spans
everything from architecture tomanufacturing to plumbing and
HVAC, like mental clinics, likeanything, really.
(08:18):
The wiring of a well-runbusiness is the same,
irrespective of the industry.
The nuance is very much born outof two things: industry segment
and the exit strategy.
So when we're combining wherewe're actually taking this
business with what the owner'splan is alongside the market
(08:38):
that they're in, uh, we can be alot more strategic.
What I've noticed is a lot of myclients that have a technical
specialty are moving towards thedoer-seller method, which is
born out of the Architecture,Engineering and Construction
Association.
There's a book about it, even.
(09:00):
I would say actually, I'll flipthat around, seller-doer method.
And so the doers?
SPEAKER_02 (09:07):
Not to interrupt you there, Renee, but you know,
that's the industry I spent myentire career in.
So I'm very familiar withexactly what you're talking
about.
SPEAKER_06 (09:16):
Yeah.
And recognize your PMs are thepeople who are going to sell
your project managers andtechnical elevated leaders are
the ones who are going to sellthe work because they know the
work.
SPEAKER_02 (09:27):
Right.
I mean, clients don't want todeal with people who don't know
anything.
That's, you know, you're right.
SPEAKER_06 (09:34):
We have AI now, those frontline salespeople who
are just all talk and sellingthe pitch.
Owners and consumers can getthis information themselves now.
We need the goods, you know, thevalue creators, uh, those are
the people who are going to beable to close the work.
SPEAKER_02 (09:52):
I thought it was interesting too.
You were talking about how thisguy, back on your case, wasn't
ready to sell the firmpsychologically, maybe.
I think, you know, don't youfind often that many of these
business owners, their wholeidentity is wrapped up in that
business?
And to separate from that isextremely difficult for them.
(10:14):
And they think they want to doit, but then as they get closer
to actually doing it, creates alot of anxiety, don't you think?
SPEAKER_06 (10:23):
Totally.
You know, a lot of businessowners come to me and say, I'm
ready to sell my business.
Can you help me?
SPEAKER_04 (10:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (10:29):
And I'm like, oh, interesting.
It sounds like you're ready tostart this conversation to
ensure that you and yourbusiness are ready.
And that readiness illusion issomething that I come across all
the time.
And it is important thatbusiness owners first prioritize
their personal goals and takethe time to re-identify with who
(10:53):
they are, what they want inlife, what's next, for them to
also identify their personalobjectives around financials.
What are their financial needswhen they're no longer trading
time for money?
How do they want to live theirlife?
What are their financial goalsaround wealth transfer to their
children?
So when we understand thepersonal and financial
(11:15):
objectives of the owner, we canthen start to identify their
wealth gap and their needs andopportunity cost of staying in
the business because they have aclear line of sight of what
they're pulling towards.
A lot of business owners thatsay I'm ready are feeling the
push because they're underpressure or they've had enough.
(11:38):
But it's really not that theyare ready, it's they're ready to
start this conversation aboutwhat's next and what they need.
SPEAKER_02 (11:45):
I believe you.
I think that's um it soundssounds again very familiar.
I can't say that's a surprise tohear you say that.
SPEAKER_03 (11:54):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_06 (11:57):
And energy starts moving towards that.
Once the owner is clear aroundabove and beyond, they pull
themselves up out of theirbusiness and they create a clear
path.
Energy starts moving in thatdirection because we have a
alignment around where they'regoing.
Otherwise, they'll stay stuck.
SPEAKER_02 (12:13):
How do you help them figure out what that next thing
is?
SPEAKER_06 (12:18):
Mm-hmm.
At the beginning of the journey,I keep it light.
You know, I just do a little bitof a discovery around who they
are, their stakeholders' family,their bucket list, if they did
sell, what would turn be termsthat they'd want, uh, what are
some big goals they have intheir life.
But uh inside of the engagement,I get very detailed with them.
(12:43):
And so that looks like literallyunderstanding their wealth gap,
establishing a financial plan,de-risking themselves and
getting clear on what they need.
And then a detailed two-pagepersonal plan.
I call it my life design, whereI'm re-identifying my core
values, my purpose, my legacy,my 10-year legacy that I want to
(13:04):
have created, also coined as mysignificant life.
I get them to design literallywhat their life looks like three
years from now, holisticallyacross uh what they're doing
with the in terms of spendingtime with people, their purpose,
their wealth, how they want togrow, and the value they want to
(13:25):
create in the world and theirhealth is really, really
important.
So I get a clear picture threeyears out.
We set goals for the coming yearand identify all the questions
they're not yet askingthemselves, but they should.
And then we work that plan every90 days to systematically move
towards what I call freedom.
(13:46):
And it's the freedom to choosethemselves and live their life
by design.
SPEAKER_02 (13:51):
Very interesting.
What about this uh post-exitidentity crisis?
SPEAKER_04 (13:56):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02 (13:58):
So you could have all the planning in the world,
and maybe things still don'twork out like they wanted, or
maybe they work out like theywanted, but it's not what they
ultimately want.
SPEAKER_06 (14:08):
Mm-hmm.
You know, depending on the typeof exit that a business owner
has, whether it's a voluntary orinvoluntary, can really
determine what that crisis, themagnitude of that crisis looks
like.
If it's involuntary due to a,you know, a death of a
shareholder, a disability, adisagreement, distress or
(14:32):
divorce, um, you know, theseinvoluntary triggers of an exit
can cause catastrophic impact onthe person, the business owner,
because they didn't see itcoming.
If it's a voluntary exit, evenstill, if there's a voluntary
exit where a lot of the peoplein the deal team and that
(14:52):
workflow are focusing on themoney and the mechanics of the
business.
They're not focusing on thehuman being.
Are they going to be okay?
What are they going to do next?
In both of those scenarios,business owners 75% of the time
move into a crisis, a regretfulstate after their exit.
And most of that is born out ofa lack of preparedness and
(15:14):
planning early enough to helpthem figure out who they are,
how they want to live theirlife, and how to make that
happen.
And they get stuck in thistransition gap.
So after they sell, voluntarilyor involuntarily, the space
between that exit and themliving their life by design
(15:38):
whole and intact with themselvesis this transition gap.
And that requires coaching,support, resources.
I get my business owners, as Isaid, to not just have a
two-page personal plan, but90-day goals, an energy
management practice, a personalboard, you know, your key people
(15:59):
that you go out for dinner withor willing to set it to you
straight.
SPEAKER_01 (16:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (16:03):
I do all those things with them to make sure
that life continues on after thebusiness.
They're intact, they're whole,and they know where they're
going and they're supported.
I got stuck in that gap myselfand I hit rock bottom.
I became an alcoholic.
In my double exit, I lost mychildren, my home, my business,
(16:28):
and my identity.
That realization of suddenlyhaving everything that I built
for 15 years vanish because Isimply said, I don't want this
anymore, was so much to bear.
I fell really hard.
Suddenly I had a life and then Ihad no life.
(16:51):
In that struggle, I was downtownin Vancouver feeding people on
the street on Christmas morningin the homeless district.
And my friend and I that werethere, we were leaving.
And as we were leaving, we founda dead man on the street.
I'd seen a dead person in reallife.
(17:14):
We called the paramedics, and itturns out he wasn't fully dead.
He was deeply unconscious.
And as they brought him back tolife, they sat him up against a
concrete wall.
And on the front of his shirtwas a Vince Lombardi quote.
It said, It's not whether youget knocked down, it's whether
you get back up.
(17:36):
That was my wake-up call to goon my own personal
transformation journey.
And what I realized is that Ididn't suck.
I was just stuck in the gap andI didn't know how to get out.
I first started changing mymindset, then my behaviors.
And as my energy increased, Istarted to create more
(18:00):
attraction of resources.
My kids came back, and the lifeI wanted was mine for the
making.
And I discovered that freedomthat I get to choose how I want
to live my life.
Life is not happening to me,it's happening for me.
And I can choose to move fromliving by default to living by
(18:23):
design.
That man gave me a wake-up call.
And every business owner hasthat opportunity.
But it's very hard when you'restuck there.
And that's why early planningmatters most.
SPEAKER_02 (18:36):
Wow, so that is profound that you went through
that.
And I can see why it's soimportant to you, the mission
that you're on now.
You f do you find uh, or howoften do you find, I should say,
uh, that these business owners,after they get out, they've got
their plan, they they doeverything that you tell them to
do to get ready.
(18:56):
They have a successful exit.
Uh you know, they're they'retrying to be their whole self,
doing all the things that yousuggest, not just sitting around
counting their money, but livinglife, okay.
That they decide they want to goback into business.
How often do you find that?
(19:18):
And they're jumping.
SPEAKER_06 (19:20):
Yeah, I don't have the data, but my experience is
eight times out of ten.
SPEAKER_02 (19:26):
Eight times out of ten, there you go.
That's interesting.
I'm not surprised.
Once again, I thinkentrepreneurs, real
entrepreneurs, they can't stop.
It's it's just it's theirnature.
SPEAKER_06 (19:38):
But Mark, what happens I've noticed, is if we
if if if we don't hold thatspace for them to do that
transition work, they end upgoing back and repeating a lot
of patterns from the past.
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (19:55):
We have to hold the space for the transition and the
human transformation work.
I know somebody who literally isin the MA space.
I think she's a coach.
She had a very successfulmarketing agency in New York and
has an epic exit story.
(20:15):
And she didn't hold that space.
She went straight into creatingsomething new, where she's a her
organization coaches otherentrepreneurs and doubled down
and moved into the MA space aswell.
Busier than ever, more out ofbalance than ever, but didn't
create the space to learn fromher own transition journey,
(20:37):
transformation journey, andreally come into that wisdom.
But I believe in life we're onthis journey to find and become
ourselves and come home toourselves.
Now, business owners have anaddiction to money and success
(20:59):
and the vices that often preventthem from doing this work.
And the cycle tends to repeat ifwe don't have an interrupting
moment and the resources or helpto help really embody the growth
that can come from thosetransition journeys.
(21:20):
We all go through transitions.
I have a puppy that I'm lettingin and out here.
Um we all go through transitionprocesses.
For example, we raise kids, thenwe become an empty nester.
That's a transition process.
And a lot of people don'trecognize the opportunity to do
(21:41):
personal development work there.
They just get busy doing otherthings.
So I think that there's anopportunity there to slow down,
to go fast, to hold the space.
And that's why having a resourcewho's guided the exit and who
can support and research.
Source that space after thecelebrations, after the money is
(22:06):
in the bank, and hold the linefor the business owner to be
able to do their own personalregroup and transformation work.
Those are the professionals thatI feel like stand out.
Those are the market leaders whoare willing to see things beyond
just the bank account.
And that's what I do.
(22:27):
Other growth advisors that Iwork alongside, we do that.
We are there from three to fiveyears before a transaction,
through the transaction to thepost-transaction era, and we
quarterback the resources, theadvisors, the support and the
process that helps the businessowner walk to their destiny.
SPEAKER_02 (22:50):
How do you guys get paid for what you do?
Is it you charge by the hour?
Do you charge by the year?
Well, how do you do it?
I'm just curious.
SPEAKER_06 (23:00):
So I've been studying the business of exit
planning while also in thebusiness.
And I've kept my model verynimble so that I can learn.
And nothing worse than buildingout an advisory practice and
realize it's not relevant in themarket.
And the business landscape ischanging.
So I've stayed nimble by design.
(23:20):
What I have discovered is thatwe need to reduce the barriers
to entry.
So some people in my professioncharge a lot of money upfront
for an in like an investigativereport analysis and a strategic
plan.
My clients, I noticed that diddo that, didn't get a lot of
value.
(23:41):
What they got the value from wasthe execution, the month over
month, quarter over quartersupport, coordinating the
meetings, measuring the growth,and managing the deliverables.
And so now I just move straightinto month over month.
I do not ask for a piece of thepie when they do sell.
(24:02):
I don't ask for phantom shares.
I don't take equity.
I stay focused on the valuecreation, and my clients are in
a month-over-month engagement.
No big cost to do business withme up front.
With the age of AI now, it isamazing what a business owner
can discover about themselvesand their business on Claude or
(24:23):
OpenAI or Grok.
So I think we have to getsmarter.
And I know what business ownersstruggle with most is the
execution of the plan.
They can have all the plans theywant, but it's the execution.
And people who are good at that,such as myself, that's where the
value is created.
SPEAKER_02 (24:43):
How do you grow your own business?
I mean, how do you avoid being avictim of exactly what you're
helping your clients with?
SPEAKER_06 (24:55):
Yeah, but you have to practice what we preach.
You're spot on.
So one of the pitfalls of uh theindependent practitioner model
or the micro firm model is thatyou are the product.
SPEAKER_01 (25:07):
Yep.
SPEAKER_06 (25:09):
Right.
So I was a former EOSimplementer, a franchise holder,
and all that model would allowme to simply trade my time for
money, and that's it.
If I wasn't in the session roomwith a client, I wasn't earning
money.
The more I got educated aboutvalue creation, the more I
realized I needed to go andbuild a firm of my own.
(25:32):
There are five things that everymicro firm practitioner needs to
be in practicing to ensure thattheir business is scalable and
not dependent exclusively onthem.
And this was born out ofprobably 300 conversations with
fellow advisors in the ExitPlanning Institute community.
(25:54):
You need very strongpositioning, understanding who
your ICP is, who that targetmarket customer is, and how you
serve them.
Trying to help everybody willkill your business.
Plan.
You also need a personal plan,financial plan, and a business
plan that is in alignment.
We have to practice what wepreach.
(26:17):
Process.
Simple, repeatable process thatanybody who's got business
background, a former businessowner who's been through an exit
can replicate.
So a simple, clean, repeatableprocess.
This was the next one, thenumber four is platforms.
That's where I got stuck.
(26:38):
I was trying to use all thisfancy software to run these
engagements and lost a handle onmy process.
And so when you get your techstack right and you've got an
engagement platform that I useone called Propel Your Business,
it creates a front of house formy firm.
So clients can come in andinterface with it.
(27:00):
Advisors can come in andinterface with it.
And it's not all dependent on medoing the work.
And then partners.
My work is scaled by the extentof my partnership ecosystem.
I bring together advisor teams,legal, accounting, wealth
managers, MA practitioners,personal coaches.
(27:21):
I bring together the advisor.
So I scale with a tight processon clean tech with the right
partners and a repeatableframework that anybody can pick
up, almost a franchisable modeland replicate.
So when I have needs, I justbring on a new advisor onto my
platform, train them in mymethod, and I can see everything
(27:43):
that's taking place on myplatform.
That's how I scale.
SPEAKER_02 (27:46):
Well, yeah, that's I'd say that's a much more
organized than typicalsub-practitioner who does what
you do.
SPEAKER_06 (27:55):
Somebody asked me recently why I'm so impactful
with business owners.
And I say, Well, I am a formerbusiness owner myself.
They're like, Well, how can Ibecome impactful even if I'm not
a business owner?
I'm an advisor.
And I said, Well, you just needto become a business owner.
Treat your business like yourpractice like a business.
SPEAKER_02 (28:13):
Yeah.
That's a problem I have with alot of coaches, I'll be honest
with you.
Ones that have just been throughcoach training, but they never
had a business.
I I think it's very difficultfor them to truly identify with
their clients and what they'regoing through.
Don't you?
SPEAKER_06 (28:32):
I think so too.
And you know, I learned one, uhI was a former yoga teacher and
I had a yoga studio, and I wentto prenatal yoga, and you're
probably thinking to yourself,where is she going?
I went to prenatal yogatraining.
And in that training, there weremany people who had never had a
baby who were getting trained todeliver prenatal yoga.
(28:57):
And they actually put their handup and said, I don't know if I
can do this because I've neverbeen pregnant and I've never
felt what it is like to bepregnant.
Therefore, I don't know if I canteach it.
And a profound moment happenedthere.
The teacher said, Can you be acompassionate witness to what
someone is moving through withempathy, care, attention, and
(29:21):
guidership?
Can you do that?
And these people said yes.
And she turned to them and shethey and she said, then you can
be a prenatal yoga teacher, evenif you've never been pregnant.
I believe advisors can bepowerful with business owners if
they're willing to step out frombehind the desk and sit in the
(29:42):
trench with the business owner,sit in the discomfort, not have
all the answers, but know how toask the right questions.
Show empathy, care, attention,and good guidership with a
proven process, and just becurious every step of the way.
I can say everything that I knownow has been bought out or born
(30:03):
out of my own experience andworking with clients, not from
textbooks.
So if they're willing to be ahuman advisor, they can be
profoundly impactful, evenpotentially.
Mark, like you and I are good,but we got scar tissue.
We've got some like bad habitsthat we've learned from our
business ownership journey,things that we've maybe
normalized.
(30:23):
The advisor can be objective,but they have to be human first.
SPEAKER_02 (30:28):
I probably have a lot more of those bad habits
than you.
You seem like you're sodisciplined over there.
Wow.
SPEAKER_06 (30:37):
I was an athlete growing up.
And you know, statistics saythat 95% of executives in North
America, uh, of a research studywas recently done, were former
team sport athletes.
SPEAKER_02 (30:52):
Yes.
unknown (30:52):
I believe.
SPEAKER_06 (30:53):
So I've got a daughter who's in hockey, and
I'm like, girl, you stay inhockey and you're gonna make it
to the top in the corporateworld or in the entrepreneurial
world.
SPEAKER_02 (31:01):
So you know, that's interesting though that they say
that.
And and that don't take this thewrong way when I say it, because
I think the facts would bear itout.
I think a lot of women,unfortunately, did not have
those experiences in sports, forexample.
Many played sort of moreindividualistic sports if they
(31:22):
played sports, rather than onteams like so many male sports
are.
Now, obviously, some do.
Some play basketball and soccerand hockey and lacrosse and all
these other things that are teamsports, but it's you know, it's
not that often.
More often than not, they'regymnasts and swimmers and if you
(31:43):
look in, I mean, I'm in Canada.
SPEAKER_06 (31:46):
Uh so I grew up in Australia and uh through team
sports are like you're it's partof the DNA.
Yeah, everything is a teamsport.
Uh, even golf is a team sport,swimming is a team sport, like
everything they do things in coin collectives down there a lot.
And if you're not doing a sport,you're kind of weird as growing
up.
It's like strange that you'renot in sports.
(32:08):
Canada, I would say I've noticedover the last 10 to 15 years,
there's been an uprising of teamsports, particularly a lot of in
the last five years, investmentin female sport programs.
My daughter plays ice hockey.
So I watch it.
It's a very high and volleyballuh in the offseason.
(32:30):
Those two sports are the aregetting so much investment
because organizations,corporations know that their
future leaders are currently onthe court or on the field or on
the ice, and they're investingthere, and I think it's smart.
SPEAKER_02 (32:45):
That's very interesting.
I like that.
Yeah, I played ice hockeymyself.
So nice.
Good for your daughter.
That's awesome.
SPEAKER_06 (32:53):
Yeah, my boys are going into trades.
They played hockey previously aswell.
Okay.
Um, one's going into electrical,and one's going into plumbing,
and they just graduate thisweek.
SPEAKER_02 (33:02):
Awesome.
I mean, we need so many moretradespeople.
And the fact is, you can dounbelievably well.
It's such a great basis forbeing a business owner.
SPEAKER_06 (33:12):
You know, my push there was with the role of AI,
the changing landscape of theworkforce, so many unknown
things, you know, anythingmechanical, manual, uh, was a
priority.
So what I I actually just wantedto loop that back around.
So I get asked a lot about therole of the AI in my profession.
(33:33):
And a lot of the advisor space,from accountants to lawyers and
financial advisors, people arelooking to that, those
industries and asking, whatvalue do they bring in the new
world of AI?
And business owners have so muchinformation now, more than ever,
which I think is has its prosand its cons as well.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (33:52):
Yes.
SPEAKER_06 (33:53):
What business owners need now more than ever is in
all the noise, all the chaos,and all the information that
they have, they need a guide.
They need a human-centered guidewho's in their corner, who will
call them out if they need to,is in their corner, seeing the
big picture and guiding theprocess.
Because business owners who aregoing on their succession
(34:14):
journey typically have neverbeen there before.
And if I ask a business owner,would you go and climb Mount
Everest alone?
And they're like, No.
Would you just decide to go andjust go and do it?
They're like, no.
I'd I asked them what they do.
They say they would prepare.
(34:35):
I'm like, oh, that'sinteresting.
And they'd go with a group withsupport of others, and they'd
have a guide.
And I'm like, so you do that ifyou were climbing Mount Everest.
Let's now talk about yourbusiness.
Let's talk about your successionjourney, preparation.
(34:55):
Go together and go with a guide.
That's what's going to get youto your destiny.
SPEAKER_02 (35:03):
You know, how I'm just curious, how do your
clients find you?
I should say.
Because my guess is if they getif you get in front of them and
you get a chance to have a realconversation with them, they're
probably going to want to hireyou.
I say your I my guess is yourclose rate is super high.
(35:23):
But how do you get your clientsfor your business?
SPEAKER_06 (35:27):
Mm-hmm.
The best source is from anexisting client who's looking at
their friend, fellow businessowner, and says, I don't want
them to suffer in the darkanymore.
Enough is enough.
They need help.
SPEAKER_02 (35:41):
Right.
SPEAKER_06 (35:42):
That is the best source.
The trust transfer on a scale ofone to 10 is like a nine out of
10.
SPEAKER_01 (35:48):
Sure.
SPEAKER_06 (35:49):
The next best category is the MA advisor.
MA advisors who have been around10 plus years have typically 10
years worth of business ownersthey've talked to, and maybe 1%
of them they've actuallytransacted.
So they have a very deepdatabase of business owners who
at one point have put up theirhand and said, I want to sell,
(36:13):
and the MA advisor has said,you're not ready, or the
business is not ready, or goaway and come back, but they
don't have anywhere to sendthem.
And so MA is a if if I get theright MA relationship, they look
at their portfolio of theirpipeline and they're like, I
(36:33):
don't want that person to sit inthe dark anymore.
I want them to be able to moveforward.
So MA uh advisors are anotherreally good source.
I do a lot of talks, I do a lotof podcasts, a lot of talks, and
people that think, oh, you mustlike close a lot of business.
And I'm like, no, it's justsimply education.
Because I'm talking aboutproblems business owners don't
(36:56):
know that they have.
A future that is not real tothem.
And two very sensitive topics,even more sensitive than
politics and religion, it'smoney and mortality.
And so I'm doing tur talks tojust turn the lights on and
start them asking deeperquestions.
(37:21):
My close rate from talks iszero.
I actually implore them to notseek to work to meet with me
until they take some time tothink about these questions,
talk to their existing advisors,and start to ask themselves,
what do I want?
And that takes time.
Business owners, people thinkthey're selfish.
(37:42):
People think owners like you,Mark, we make sales and that all
goes straight into your personalbank account, and they have no
idea of the struggle and theself-sacrifice that business
owners go through on a dailybasis.
Everybody else gets to go homeand you don't.
Their ability to put themselvesfirst, actually, in my
(38:04):
experience, is very low.
And it takes time to get them tothe table where they're ready to
really start this work.
So I have a fairly high successrate, but I have a very focused
niche ICP.
My ideal client profile isclear.
And when I'm not the person towork with them, I refer them to
(38:26):
my peers.
I actually turned my businessinto an academy to train other
advisors to do this work betterbecause they've got the theory
and they've got the experience.
They just struggle with theexecution.
And so I have advisors in myreach and I feed them work
because I believe togethercollectively we can have a lot
(38:47):
more impact than I can havealone.
SPEAKER_02 (38:50):
Yeah.
Wow, that's great.
So um do you find uh back on thesellers for a minute?
You you talk about uh you knowthe the two um sacred subjects
um money and what was the otherone?
SPEAKER_06 (39:09):
Mortality.
SPEAKER_02 (39:10):
Mortality, yeah.
I I find that a lot ofentrepreneurs, as odd as it is,
the money's really not the mostimportant thing to them at all.
It's it it is a byproduct, butthen at the same time when they
want to go sell their business,they think it's worth three
times what it really is.
Do you do you find that?
SPEAKER_06 (39:31):
They typically entrepreneurs have uh most of
the entrepreneurs that I meethave a complex relationship with
money born out of theirformative years of childhood.
SPEAKER_02 (39:45):
Boy, right on with that.
SPEAKER_06 (39:47):
So when I start talking with a business owner,
sometimes it takes me 10 yearsto get a business owner to a
point where I'm like, they'relike, one of my former clients
from seven years ago, no, eightyears ago, reached out and said,
I'm ready to have thisconversation, Renee.
So um I got I get every businessowner to tell me in the first
(40:09):
conversation who they are, wherethey grew up, what it was like,
what they learned, what hardshipthey had, like all these things.
And people say, Well, this isthe most weird sales call I've
ever had.
I'm like, it's not a sales call.
It's an invitation to get toknow yourself because the more
you get to know yourself, yourneeds, your motivations, like
Maslow's hierarchy of needs, Ican I can assess where the gaps
(40:33):
are, where the needs are, andpsychologically understand the
level of readiness, willingness,and ableness to do this work.
Uh but the the complexity thereis like we don't care about the
money, it's about the meaning.
But when it comes to the crunch,we do care about the money, and
then some days we do, and thensome days we don't.
And where is it all coming from?
Because we have a complexrelationship.
(40:55):
And that's why MA people like orpeople like me in the process,
because I'm managing the numberone risk, the business owner.
unknown (41:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (41:08):
And that is unique to every business owner.
But most of them got kicked outof the home at like 17 years
old.
Parents said you're on your ownnow, or their dad went bankrupt,
uh, you know, was their primaryincome bearer went bankrupt, or
they came from poverty, um, orhad it all, lost it all.
(41:31):
Like they've got some kind ofthing there.
And I go looking for that.
I need to understand that.
Boy, you're right on with that.
When we're at we're backed upagainst the wall and we're
moving into the unknown, allthat stuff shows up, all that
trauma, unaddressed stuff showsup, and I need to be ready for
(41:54):
it.
I'm not a therapist.
SPEAKER_02 (41:57):
You're not?
I mean, you seem like one.
You get into the weeds withthese people.
SPEAKER_06 (42:03):
I mean, yeah, yeah.
People ask me, am I concernedabout you know, client churn?
I would say my clients neverreally leave.
They just sometimes go on longtrips and then they come back.
And this is a lifelong journey.
So I think what is alsoimportant you asked earlier
about scale.
(42:24):
It's not about volume of clientsthat you work with in my type of
work.
SPEAKER_04 (42:28):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_06 (42:29):
It's about the depth of those relationships.
And it is important that therebe a value exchange.
What makes this work challengingto price out is that there are
so few people that do it, theycan't shop this around.
unknown (42:45):
Right?
SPEAKER_02 (42:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (42:46):
So that's why you got to take the time to get to
know them, have a process thatyou can write on the back of a
napkin, and then create theinvitation for them to simply,
Mark, choose themselves.
That's all they're really doinghere is saying that I matter.
(43:06):
I am ready to prioritize myneeds and wants and to begin
this journey, really ultimatelyhome to themselves.
Because at the end of the lineof life, the money doesn't
matter.
But meaningfulness does.
And that's why we have to takethe time to get to know them.
SPEAKER_08 (43:27):
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SPEAKER_02 (43:42):
Wow, I wish I had had you around 20 something
years ago the first time I soldmy business.
SPEAKER_06 (43:54):
But sometimes I'm not the person that is the
friend.
Sometimes I'm like Dave.
We're not doing that.
Dave's like, yes, we are.
I'm like, no, we're not doingthat.
And I present back all thethings Dave's told me, the
former conversations.
So I'm not always the mostpopular person in the room, but
I'm necessary.
SPEAKER_02 (44:14):
Now you're starting to sound like my wife.
I mean, it took me three triesto get that.
She's still like, no, not doingthat.
Yeah.
Uh, but no, I I hear what you'resaying, and and I believe that's
true.
But um, but yeah, I mean, Ithink from my own experience, I
made a lot of the mistakesyou're talking about.
I rushed right back into doingsomething else.
(44:34):
And I did repeat many of thesame mistakes.
And, you know, I've done thismore than once.
So, like you said, I mean, it itit's hard when you're used to
constantly being under the fire.
If nothing else, that's anaddiction.
Dopamine is a good thing.
You keep putting yourself intothat situation and then you
(44:55):
survive.
It's like, hey, I pulled offanother one, you know.
SPEAKER_06 (45:00):
I call it the wartime CEO.
unknown (45:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (45:04):
But in peacetime, he doesn't know what to do with
himself.
SPEAKER_02 (45:07):
Exactly.
You may not get really where youwant to go doing that.
You could certainly spend yourlife doing that and and convince
yourself that you're beinguseful in the process.
And maybe you do make money andall those other things, but it's
not necessarily what's best foryou ultimately, as you say, to
get to your desired end state.
(45:32):
You know, you've got someterminology for that.
I want to change the subject fora minute, though, back to
something you mentioned earlier.
Um, and and in this one, I I Ireally hopefully you can give me
some honest opinion on EOS.
And I'm gonna tell you how Ifeel about it first, and then
you can tell me why I'm wrong orwhether there's any truth to my
(45:54):
thinking.
I think it's all bullshit.
SPEAKER_06 (45:56):
I actually hope that we record this and send it.
I have a call with leadership intwo weeks' time.
So I'm I'm excited about thisconversation.
SPEAKER_02 (46:05):
Okay.
Well, I think it's a lot of it'sbullshit.
Um, I've seen lots of EOSimplementers, I've seen lots of
companies implement.
They have tons of meetings, theyhave lots of terminology for
their rocks and for all thisother stuff.
It's real catchy.
And in the end, they spend somuch time and effort on this
(46:29):
process that it becomes likethey get mired down in the
molasses.
It's it's the opposite ofentrepreneurial, in my opinion.
At least that's how I've seenit.
I can't claim to have seen anytremendous successes.
I've seen very longimplementations that were
(46:50):
eventually abandoned in manycases.
And yet everybody, you know.
Uh not everybody, a lot ofpeople act as if this is like
the savior for everything inbusiness is EOS.
It's kind of like good to great,you know, it's like a Bible.
(47:11):
This Patrick, what's it,Lencioni or however it's
pronounced.
SPEAKER_06 (47:15):
Kim Collins and Patrick Lencioni, Michael
Gerber, like all thesephilosophies, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (47:20):
Exactly.
Yeah.
And and anyway, what you youwere an EOS implementer.
You've obviously gone beyondthat with your whole thing that
you're doing now, which is in mymind it's a lot more holistic
and wider ranging.
SPEAKER_06 (47:37):
Yeah.
Excellent.
Okay, rapid fire.
Ready?
SPEAKER_02 (47:40):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (47:42):
When EOS was originally built, the model of
the implementer was for thepost-exit business owner to have
something meaningful that theycould do to help other business
owners.
SPEAKER_01 (47:53):
Okay.
SPEAKER_06 (47:53):
Okay.
So that was our ICP for theimplementer.
It's gone a lot wider than that.
SPEAKER_01 (47:59):
Yes, it has.
SPEAKER_06 (48:00):
Right?
SPEAKER_01 (48:01):
Yes.
SPEAKER_06 (48:02):
So I'll keep that there.
Um, those books, Gerber,Lincioni, Collins, uh, Covey,
all those things are great intheory, but what owners and
teams struggle with isexecution.
unknown (48:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (48:14):
All Gino did was uh design an execution system to
create a 90-day world whereenergy was moving towards a
vision, there wasaccountability, execution on
priorities, we're measuring themost important things, and we're
having meetings to solve issuesand drive execution.
So we created an executionsystem, which I think is genius.
(48:36):
I this is the way I work.
So, like Gino's mind and mywork, we're constantly making
models to drive execution,better results, and so forth.
So the science of it ismagnificent.
Even though I am no longer afranchisee, at a baseline, I
require my clients to implementor have EOS because I ain't
(48:58):
going in there every day.
But I need the lights on, I needa clear structure, I need a
vision that the owners andoperators are in line with, the
right people in the team.
If I can't see into the team, Icannot determine if we've got
the right people on the bus ornot.
And are they actually going tomake it through the transaction?
EOS turns the lights on, createsa system at a foundation, and
(49:22):
actually is a baseline for valuecreation.
I build six layers of value ontop of EOS.
So I've required at a minimum.
It's an execution system thatdrives change, unlocks growth.
Now, back to the first point.
When we have people who areimplementing EOS who are perhaps
not former business owners ornot trained to think like a
(49:46):
business owner, it can tend tobecome a focus on retaining the
client and preserving therevenue as opposed to adopting
entrepreneurial thinking byreally going in and changing the
game for the business owner andtheir team.
SPEAKER_02 (50:02):
Okay.
That that I makes a lot of senseto me because I've seen a lot of
that out there.
SPEAKER_06 (50:10):
I'm going to keep going.
Can I interrupt you?
It's your portion, yeah.
24 months to mastery, we shouldbe at 80% or stronger in 24
months if we're doing our jobwell.
SPEAKER_02 (50:21):
Okay.
SPEAKER_06 (50:21):
The client is intended to graduate, move into
independence, and embed the EOSinto their DNA.
So we're not even talking aboutEOS, we're just running our
business with more discipline.
So the expectation is you willbe graduating and constantly
working with new teams becauseyou're imp when you're
implementing an ERP or a CRMsoftware in your company, does
(50:45):
that go on perpetually?
No, you implement, adopt, andintegrate.
So you're not supposed to beworking with the implementer
indefinitely.
However, if the company'sacquiring and bringing on new
companies, spinning off, movesto an acquisition and goes
through different major lifecycle shifts, absolutely the
(51:06):
implementer may be value addedalong the way.
The other piece here is that wehave got so focused on learning
the science of it, we've lostthe art of it.
So with science is everybodyneeds to be in a meeting and
everybody needs a measurable andall these things.
So we often over-engineer EOS inthe business.
(51:30):
Okay.
So the implementer needs tounderstand the size and scale
and journey of that business,really right-size EOS for that
company, and recognize pullingthe entire production staff off
the floor for a level 10 isludicrous.
But there are meeting rhythmsthat we can have, ways that we
(51:53):
can cascade information, butthere's nuance, and the
implementer needs to work withthe team to really make EOS
their own rather than being hardand fast regimented.
So we can avoid the excess andmake it their own.
But the biggest thing, Mark,that I learned, and the reason
why I stepped out for a periodof time, and I'm not saying I
(52:13):
would never go back.
Those are some of theconversations that I'm having
coming up.
But the biggest miss, in myopinion, is we're not having the
most important conversation.
What does the owner want?
My work carves out the owner'sbox, sits with the owner there,
(52:36):
builds the plan, and aligns theteam with it.
It's their business, it's theirfuture.
SPEAKER_02 (52:44):
Right.
SPEAKER_06 (52:44):
And the owners and operators have to align.
SPEAKER_02 (52:52):
You can use EOS.
You can also have a really goodstrategic planning process in my
mind that's going to do a lot ofthese things.
But, you know, when it comes tothat, I mean, you're right on
with that, because I alwaysthought it was absurd when I'd
see companies that are likegoing out to their employees and
asking them what the vision forthe company should be.
(53:13):
If the owners don't know that,what how in the world are your
employees going to tell youthat?
SPEAKER_05 (53:18):
It's like asking the kids, how should we live our
life?
Yeah, exactly.
Parents are in charge.
SPEAKER_02 (53:24):
It's it's so true.
Wow.
Well, it's really beeninteresting talking with you,
Renee.
And um, I can see why you'reeffective.
Uh uh you have a uh a very clearway of communicating in uh real
(53:44):
words that don't sound like BS.
And I can tell you've had a lotof experience that's valuable,
and uh I'm sure you provide alot of value to your clients.
If somebody does want to learnmore about you or reach out to
you, where do they find you?
SPEAKER_06 (54:04):
LinkedIn is a place that I exist uh on a weekly
basis.
So Renee Russo Rise Up BC onthere.
Uh my website is riseupbc.com.
Uh and so uh the fastest way isprobably LinkedIn.
Uh but you can contact me byemail from the website as well.
(54:28):
There is a book that I wouldrecommend every business owner
read, and it's called Walking toDestiny.
And it outlines the inevit uh 11essential things that every
business owner must do to ensurethat they are free to walk to
their destiny and live theirlife by design.
It covers the personal planning,financial planning, and business
(54:48):
planning, what to expect fromyour advisor ecosystem, and how
to create the execution systemto get there.
Yes, you'll need a guide, andcertified exit planning advisors
are certified in that method.
Uh, people like me, specificallyquarterback the entirety of
that.
And uh every business owner, Ijust encourage you to recognize
(55:10):
that if you don't matter,nothing matters.
Everything you need reallystarts with asking yourself
important questions.
Who am I?
What do I want?
Where am I going?
And then looking at the businessthrough that lens.
Because if you don't matter,nothing matters.
SPEAKER_02 (55:29):
It's awesome.
All right.
Well, hey, it's been greathaving you on the show here.
I hope we get a chance to talkagain sometime.
And uh I wish you the very best.
And clearly you're helping manypeople, and that's a noble
endeavor.
SPEAKER_06 (55:45):
Thank you.
So I'm very thankful for thisopportunity.
SPEAKER_02 (55:49):
Thank you.
And uh so everybody, I guessthis concludes another episode
of Big Talk About SmallBusiness.com.
SPEAKER_00 (56:07):
Thanks for tuning into this episode of Big Talk
About Small Business.
If you have any questions orideas for upcoming shows, be
sure to head over to ourwebsite,
www.bigtalkaboutsmallbusiness.com,and click on the Ask the Host
button for the chance to haveyour questions answered on the
show.
Stay connected with us onLinkedIn at Big Talk About Small
(56:28):
Business.
And be sure to head over to ourwebsite to read articles, browse
episodes, and ask questionsabout upcoming shows.
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