November 14, 2025 • 43 mins
The holidays are upon us. It's time to dig deep.
Catherine Hickem, founder of Parenting Adult Children Today (PACT). Catherine shares a hopeful, practical roadmap for parents who want less tension and more trust—especially as the holidays bring everyone under one roof.
We dig into why adult children often act different around their parents and how expectations, tone, and boundaries can either smother or strengthen the relationship. We discuss:
• the hidden cost of parental expectations on adult children
• why rescues undermine confidence and fuel estrangement
• shifting from advice to curiosity with practical scripts
• separating our self-worth from kids’ choices
• tone of voice as an anxiety dial in hard talks
• setting and holding fair house rules when kids move home
• preparing for holidays with boundaries, space and new traditions
• grieving lost visions so joy can return
Please follow us on social media now. It helps us so much.
Huge thanks to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
Check out Catherine’s free resource: Seven Keys To Talking With Your Adult Children at leaderpass.com/parenting-adult-children-today/preview
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:04):
As my kids got older and I began to grow with them, I
began to realize we don't haveresources out here to help
parents deal with what Iconsider actually the most
significant time in the life ofour children.
Yes, development is important.
I get all of that.
I'm totally aware, I totallyagree.
But I gotta tell you, you lose alot of young adults from 18 to
(00:27):
25 because they didn't have therelationships that they could
have had with the people whoraised them.
Because the parents bring theirexpectations, they bring their
opinions to that relationship,and it just snuffs the life out
of the confidence in those adultchildren.
SPEAKER_00 (00:49):
Hey everyone, welcome to Bite Your Tongue the
Podcast.
Join me, your host, DeniseGorin, as we explore the ins and
outs of building healthyrelationships with our adult
children.
Together we'll speak withexperts, share heartfelt
stories, and get timely advice,addressing topics that matter
most to you.
Get ready to dive deep and learnto build and nurture deep
(01:12):
connections with our adultchildren.
And of course, when to bite ourtongues.
So let's get started.
Hi everyone, welcome back toanother episode of Bite Your
Tongue the Podcast.
I'm Denise, and I'm ready todive in to another great episode
today.
So glad you're with us.
It means so much.
You know, it's gotten reallychilly here in Denver, and that
(01:33):
cozy vibe got us thinking thisis the perfect time to start
talking about holiday prep.
Not about decorations and gifts,mind you, but about visiting and
being visited by our adultchildren.
We've got a great guest joiningus shortly, and she'll talk all
about it.
But before we dive in, I have asmall favor to ask.
And don't worry, it's not aboutdonations or money, though we
(01:54):
never say no to that support.
This time it's about helping usgrow our community online.
Each of our episodes getsthousands of downloads, which is
amazing, and we're trulygrateful.
But we'd like to see that sameenergy on social media.
So if you enjoy the show, pleasetake a minute to follow us.
On Facebook, just search BiteYour Tongue Podcast and on
(02:16):
Instagram at BiteYourTonguePod.
Look for our big pink logo.
Even if you're not a socialmedia fan, trust me, I get it.
Your following us really helpsus reach more parents like you,
but also gives our littlepodcast some big time
credibility.
It would mean the world to us.
All right, let's jump intotoday's episode.
(02:37):
We're thrilled to have with ustoday Catherine Hickam.
She's a psychotherapist, author,and founder of Parenting Adult
Children Today.
She calls it PACT.
It's a groundbreaking initiativethat helps parents navigate this
tricky, beautiful, but sometimesbaffling world of parenting
grown kids.
(02:58):
With the holidays coming up,we're going to talk about how to
prepare emotionally, mentally,and even spiritually for all
that family togetherness.
We'll also dive into some ofCatherine's guiding principles
and practical tools to help usimprove our relationships with
our adult children right now.
Catherine believes that buildinga great relationship with your
(03:18):
adult child isn't about beingperfect.
Thank goodness.
It's about showing up withintention, love, and grace.
So let's dive in.
Welcome, Catherine.
We're so glad to have you withus.
And you know that all of ourlisteners are parents of adult
children, and we've promisedsome holiday tips, so we'll get
to that.
But I want to know first how youstarted this pact, a parenting
(03:42):
association, what is it?
P-A-C-T.
Say it for me.
What is it?
Parenting adult children today.
That's right.
How did this all begin for you?
SPEAKER_01 (03:50):
It started when my own children were in their early
20s.
And I was listening.
I'll tell you a quick story.
One of my daughter's friends hadvisited her when she was home
during summer.
He said to me, He said, Mrs.
Hickham, did you know that yourdaughter is the only friend that
I have that is the same in frontof her parents as she is behind
their back?
(04:11):
Oh, interesting.
And I said, Really?
And he said, Yes.
He said, It's true.
And I said, Well, what aboutyou?
Are you the same?
And he said, Oh, no, absolutelynot.
And I said, Well, Jason, what'sthat about?
He said, Oh no, Ms.
Hickam, I figured out.
He said, When I go home to bewith my mom and dad, I become
who they want me to be.
(04:31):
Because if I don't, my momcries, my dad gets mad.
And he said, So I just change.
And he says, and when I walk outthe door, I go back to being
myself.
And he said, That's what myfriends do.
It was like I got hit in thegut.
It really was a very soberingmoment when I heard him say
that.
And it made me incredibly sad.
(04:53):
That is really sad.
Isn't it just painful?
Painful.
And I thought, where do you gowhen you need to be your full
self?
Where do you go?
What I began to watch, observe,and listen was that they would
go to their friends, but theywouldn't go to their parents.
(05:14):
And I thought, this is a hugeopportunity that parents are
missing out on because they needto go to someplace where someone
loves them, accepts them, andwill stick by them.
Their friends are in the sameboat that they're in.
So they're not going to have thewisdom or the life experience or
resources or the insight to knowhow to support them.
(05:35):
I mean, I'm glad that they haveeach other as friends, but but
there are some things in lifethat are too big for your friend
just to be their only source ofsupport.
This is the wisdom that parentscould give and the resources
they could be if the kidsweren't so frightened to
disappoint them or deal withtheir anxiety or their
frustrations because they didn'tturn out like they thought they
(05:56):
should, or they were differentthan how they thought they
should be.
It really just awakened a wholenother level for me because I'd
been a therapist.
I'd specialized in parenting.
My area was focusing really on18 and under.
But as my kids got older and Ibegan to grow with them as they
grew, I began to realize wedon't have resources out here to
(06:16):
help parents deal with what Iconsider actually the most
significant time and the life ofour children.
I mean, yes, development isimportant.
I get all of that.
And you know, I'm I'm totallyaware, I totally agree, but I
gotta tell you, you lose a lotof young adults from 18 to 25
because they didn't have therelationships that they could
(06:37):
have had with the people whoraised them, because the parents
bring their expectations, theybring their opinions to that
relationship, and it just snuffsthe life out of the confidence
in those adult children.
SPEAKER_00 (06:50):
Let's start with that, because that's a huge
statement and a sad statement.
I think you said to me when wewere first talking, how many
parents of adult children areout there now, or how many adult
children are in the world?
SPEAKER_01 (07:01):
There's a 100 million parents of adult
children from the ages of 18 to45, and that's just in the
United States.
There's some statistics that arepretty sobering.
Like 26.1% of adult childrenhave an estranged relationship
with at least one, if not bothparents.
Then their mental health is36.2% of young adults between 18
(07:25):
and 25 have a mental illness.
29.4% have a mental illnessbetween 26 and 46.
SPEAKER_00 (07:32):
Do you think some of that is just that mental illness
is more readily recognized nowthan it was before?
Or is it go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (07:41):
I will tell you, I think it's higher.
And there's a reason for that.
And that is over the years, asthe illegal drugs, you know,
whether it's pod or whatever,the substances that have been
laced in those have actuallybecome triggers for mental
health disorders that would havelaid dormant forever had not
(08:03):
that particular substanceactivated it.
And once that that illness isactivated, it can't be put back
in.
Once it's out, it is now anissue.
I do think we have a higher rateof disorders because of the
activation of chemicals in thebrain that the brain doesn't
know how to deal with.
And I also think we have thehighest level of anxiety that
(08:26):
probably we have ever seenbecause we don't have resiliency
as a culture like we once had.
And so you throw all thosethings together.
We've got some prettysignificant culture issues that
are impacting relationships inthe home.
And vice versa, the issues thatare in the home are impacting
the culture.
(08:46):
So we've we've got a problemthat we need to be really taking
very seriously so that way wecan at least have peace within
our own homes and our ownfamilies.
But when you have estrangementat 26.1%, I that is that's an
alarming statistic to me.
SPEAKER_00 (09:02):
This is a sad statement.
We've started off with many ofus might not really know our
adult children.
They're a different person whenthey're with us.
What can we do, or what do youadvise parents to recognize
this?
Do you talk to your kid aboutit?
Or what sorts of things canparents do?
Here's what I'll tell you.
SPEAKER_01 (09:18):
Um, as long as there's breath in our body,
there's hope.
And I'm a big believer inredemption and restoration.
I am the byproduct of a father,of a very difficult relationship
with a father that at 25, I hada really heart-to-heart
conversation with him about somereally hard things.
And he took ownership and hesaid, if I could do it over, I
(09:42):
would do it over.
He said, But I can't.
The only thing I can do is I cangive you my word that moving
forward, I could be the dad thatyou need, not the dad that you
had.
And for the rest of my adultlife, my dad worked very
intentionally to be an amazingfather that I didn't have from
five to 25.
Incredibly grateful, but hemodeled for me redemption.
(10:04):
He modeled for me that as longas I could see he was willing to
work and change and grow, Ijumped right in.
And I am, I feel very fortunatethat I had the experience of
ending my relationship with mydad in a much, much better way
than how I had how it started.
I have watched as a therapist,right, as a parenting specialist
(10:25):
over the years, I have just seenredemption, restoration,
forgiveness, learning, growing,um change.
And so I'm, I know it canhappen.
I realize that in some familiesthere's a lot of water that's
gone under the bridge, but inmost circumstances, um, I will
tell you that I think that it'spossible.
It's a question (10:44):
are we willing to do the work?
Are we willing to listen?
Are we willing to grow and becurious instead of holding on to
our expectations and our beliefsand all those things that we've
been willing to die on the hillfor?
Can I step back and be a studentof my children and really learn
who they are versus who Ithought they were?
SPEAKER_00 (11:06):
Yes, it makes perfect sense.
I love that because one of thethings we've stressed almost in
every episode, and you kind ofreferred to this.
We have to look at ourselves.
I think many times parents seethe issue as their kids and they
don't play a role.
Does that make any sense?
Because we grew up in a societywhere it was honor they father
(11:27):
and mother, and we did whateverit took to make sure our parents
were happy.
Whereas I think this generationtakes care of themselves too,
which is valuable and good forthem.
But we don't get thatcompletely.
SPEAKER_01 (11:40):
Well, it's it's also a message that we kind of send
them from the very beginning.
You're right.
So, therefore, we're responsiblefor the messaging that we
infused in them that we're nowhaving to live with and deal
with.
You are so right.
That's exactly right.
We really have to look at themirror on this one.
I don't want anyone to hear thiswrong.
(12:02):
We'll never quote overvalue ourchildren per se, but sometimes
we have done some things out ofbalance, which is never healthy.
Anytime we're out of balance,it's never healthy.
I remember when I was doingparenting years ago with the
under 18 crowd, I would say tomom and dad, I would say, every
10th pizza, you get the lastpiece of pizza.
SPEAKER_00 (12:25):
I had an episode called The Burnt Hamburger, and
it was out the mother alwaystaking the burnt hamburger.
SPEAKER_01 (12:31):
There you go.
That's the exact lesson, right?
SPEAKER_00 (12:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:34):
Why did I say I want the parent to take the last?
So they would see that sometimesI matter.
I'm the most important one inthat moment or that day or that
event.
They're not always the numberone.
They can sometimes be numbertwo, number three, number four,
because that's what life is.
We're not always number one.
We have to learn how to shift,to have to adapt.
(12:55):
It's not always about us, it'ssometimes it's about other
people, and that's okay.
That's what we call balance,that's what we call teaching
kids and adult, young adults.
How do you think of somebodybeside yourself?
How do we create anunderstanding of empathy?
How do we not raise narcissists?
Those are some incrediblyimportant questions we need to
(13:16):
be thinking about.
And so it's important that wegive ourselves value.
And this is one of the thingsthat I think as parents, we need
to be looking at ourselvesbecause too often our value is
attached to how our adultchildren turn out.
And our value has to becompletely separate and
independent because one, it'snot, it's too much pressure on
(13:38):
them that if my happiness isdependent upon them, that's too
weighty to put on the shouldersof a young adult.
Secondly, I'm responsible for myhappiness.
They're not responsible forthat.
And I don't want to beresponsible for their happiness
either.
So, you know, there's a lot ofshifts, a lot of changes that we
(13:58):
have to recognize our naturalevolution of us going from
parenting when we wereresponsible for them while they
were at home to when they becamea young adult and an adult, that
we have to really shift the waywe think.
So our self-worth isn't tied totheir choices, their decisions,
(14:19):
their outcomes.
That's not fair to anybody.
Everybody loses when we areimbalanced.
And we've not done a really goodjob of that.
SPEAKER_00 (14:29):
And how do you tell that to a parent who's given
their whole life to raisingkids?
And I see it now in this nextgeneration too.
It's funny because I was justvisiting my daughter.
I have a new grand, my firstgrandchild, five months old, and
I looked at her and I said, youknow, there's nothing wrong with
benign neglect because youoverdo it as a parent of a baby.
And I see it coming in with thewhole next generation following
(14:51):
our footsteps, but evenamplified.
SPEAKER_01 (14:54):
So, so much.
This is one of the reasons why Ijumped into this particular area
was because we haveover-emphasized and we don't let
children learn how toself-soothe.
We don't let them struggle.
It's like struggle is what makesthem strong.
We put a kid on a playmat and wehand them the toy every time
(15:15):
they go to reach it.
They're not going to develop themuscle tone that they need to be
able to then crawl and thenwalk.
But we're also takingopportunities away for them to
develop confidence.
And to me, that is that's partof the damage that we've done.
We've not given themopportunities to develop
self-worth, self-confidence thatthey can overcome, they can
persevere, they can pushthrough.
(15:37):
I mean, what an incrediblefeeling to know that I've done
something hard and I've gottento the other side.
And this is what, you know, asyoung adults that we have in our
homes and adults, we have torespect them, but they have to
(15:59):
work through the process.
They will learn, they will growjust like we did when we were
making decisions and we weremaking mistakes.
But we have to, we're too quickto rescue, we're too quick to
give our opinion, we're tooquick to tell them what to do.
Not helpful, not encouraging.
SPEAKER_00 (16:16):
So hard.
I want to go back to theexpectations that you were
talking about, not tying up ourhappiness with their happiness
and all of that.
Give any advice for parents thathave given their whole life to
raising their children, hadexpectations that they were
going to be best buds when theybecame adult kids.
The kid feels this tension thatall their expectations, you
(16:36):
know, their parent thinksthey're not a doctor, they're
not a lawyer, they're not a CEO,they're not a tech genius or
whatever.
How do parents deal with thosefeelings?
SPEAKER_01 (16:45):
Those feelings are a reflection of how the parents
are insecure.
Oh, yeah, you're right.
You're right.
Basically saying, I wasn'tenough because if I was enough,
they would be making differentchoices and they would be this.
Not not true.
And when we have a hole that wehaven't filled in a healthy way
or addressed our own notenoughness, we project it onto
(17:09):
them, and now they're carryingour not enoughness, and we've
sent a message that they're notnot enough, and now they don't
want to be around people thatremind them they're not enough.
So estrangement happens,disconnect happens.
If I every time I see them, I'ma disappointment or I think I've
disappointed you in some way.
Why do I want to hang around?
(17:30):
I wouldn't, that's for sure.
It's not fun, painful.
SPEAKER_00 (17:33):
And sometimes even the parent can't fake it.
SPEAKER_01 (17:36):
No.
Oh, parents, our children knowus better than we know
ourselves.
That's the problem.
Because they've lived with alife, they've lived a lifetime
with us.
They know when we're faking it,they know when we're not being
genuine, and they've heard thecomments that we've made about
other people, about otherpeople's kids.
Yeah.
Therefore, guess what?
They don't forget.
(17:57):
This is the reason I can't tellmy mom this, is because I heard
what she said about, you know,my cousin so-and-so.
So they don't tell you.
So they just keep it inside andthey live a secret life.
Parents would be shocked,shocked if they really knew the
struggles our kids had that theydon't feel the safety to be able
to talk about.
I want us to change that becauseyou know what?
(18:18):
We love our kids, we want thebest for our kids.
We don't want them to strugglethat way.
We just don't know that we'rewe're messing them up.
SPEAKER_00 (18:25):
We don't know that we're we're presenting that way.
So you have some guidingprinciples I want to go over so
we can at least give some.
This is also interesting, but Iwant our listeners to have
something they can take away towork on.
We talked about expectations,but one of the things you also
talked about treating them likechildren.
SPEAKER_01 (18:43):
You have to remember our job in the first 18 years of
life was to be a teacher, right?
We were to teach them about allkinds of things in terms of
preparing them for life, beingwilling to release them.
But we get to that point ofreleasing them, and then what we
do is we hold on, we push backwhen they try to become
independent because we'rescared.
(19:03):
And that fear is contagious andit falls over onto them.
And so what we want to do is getreally honest about what's my
biggest fear.
And if we can sit with that, thehonesty of that fear, then we
can make a decision.
Is that the what I want to handthem as they leave, or do I want
to hand them my belief that theycan do this?
(19:26):
Even though I may not fullyunderstand what all that will
mean, am I gonna give them thegift of my confidence and my
belief in who they are?
Or am I going to be so scaredthat I'm gonna come off
controlling and trying to managetheir lives?
Because if I try to quote,parent them the way I did when
they were little, I will losethem.
SPEAKER_00 (19:47):
Can you give me an example of how a parent might
say something that sounds thatis controlling, treating them
like a child as an adult?
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
Yeah.
So for instance, let's say thattheir ki their child has gone
off to college and they'reseveral weeks into their first
semester of college, and theyhave an opportunity to go away
for the weekend at someone'shome.
Now, they've also told you thattheir first set of tests are
coming up for the new semester.
(20:14):
And so the parent would say, Areyou really sure that's a good
idea?
I'm really concerned becauseyou've got all those tests
coming back and you're gonna goparty over the weekend.
Don't you think you should bestaying back to study to get
ready for your first exams?
SPEAKER_00 (20:28):
I've said it a million times.
My kids are older now, but Iknow I've done that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:32):
See what I'm saying?
Good intentions, probably thesmart thing to do is not do that
weekend.
But you know what?
That's not our decision to make.
They may need to learn that inthe very first month of the very
first semester that they may nothave their act together as
quickly as they think they do.
So if they fall on this one,guess what?
They'll be smarter the nexttime.
(20:53):
But if they don't have the spaceto learn the lessons, guess
what's gonna happen?
I keep repeating the mistakesbecause they're gonna do it to
spite us.
Say, I'm my own person, I wantto do this.
And the truth is, we don't wantto be the reaction, we want to
not have them manage us.
We can ask questions and justsay, I'm sure that's gonna be a
(21:15):
fun weekend.
How do you feel about the testthat you're coming back to?
SPEAKER_00 (21:19):
So say it that way, let them be curious or whatever.
SPEAKER_01 (21:22):
Yeah.
That gift of curiosity, thatbecause what you're assuming the
best, and if they haven'tthought of it, you've planted a
seed, but you've not said, Well,I think that's a really stupid
idea.
And I hear parents say, that wasreally dumb.
Why would you do that?
How helpful is that?
SPEAKER_00 (21:37):
Not very helpful to anybody.
SPEAKER_01 (21:39):
It's disrespectful.
We need to talk to them the waywe would want someone to speak
to us if we were contemplating adecision that maybe we had not
fully given thought to.
So it's a question of do I treatthem respectfully or do I talk
down to them as if they have nosense?
If I really think my kid has nosense, then I need to go look in
(22:01):
the mirror and go, where was Iin the parenting world that I
didn't do my job?
Do you know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_00 (22:07):
Yeah, I get what you're saying.
SPEAKER_01 (22:09):
It's like we gotta be really we gotta be really
careful because that mirror canpop up really fast.
SPEAKER_00 (22:15):
You mentioned boundaries.
I want to hear your thoughts onboundaries because you mentioned
the importance of settingboundaries once your kids become
adults, and parents should dothat without guilt.
I have never heard about parentssetting boundaries.
I've always heard about theadult kids setting boundaries.
SPEAKER_01 (22:33):
I think parents can set boundaries.
Okay.
But I and I think we have tomake some decisions, especially
since we have such a wave ofadult children coming back home
due to the economy, due to thehorse, due to all kinds of
reasons, right?
Just the cost of living.
But before they come back home,parents need to get really clear
about what their non-negotiablesare.
(22:54):
In my home, packing up was notan option in my home.
If they wanted to do that, ifthat was a choice that they had
chosen to make, that would befine.
They could make that choice ontheir own by themselves.
But they weren't doing it inunderneath my roof.
Not something that I wantedhappening.
I didn't want people coming andgoing in the middle of the night
that I didn't know.
I needed to know when I went tobed that I was familiar with the
(23:16):
people that were in that house.
How you say something like that,you can be very judgmental and
very condescending and unkind,or you can just say, hey guys, I
just need you to understand thisis where dad and I are.
And I know it may not make senseto you, but this is what works
for us.
I need you to really recognizethis is an important boundary
for us.
And I need you to honor that.
(23:37):
And then they get to make achoice.
And if they want to live in myhouse, they get to that's fine.
But they have to, they have toagree to that.
If they are coming back, I'm notgonna be responsible for cooking
their meals.
Guess what?
And I'm gonna expect that they,if they clean mess the dishes
up, they're gonna need to cleanthe dishes up.
So it's a question of the how doI say it in a manner that says,
(23:58):
we're a team, we're all gonna beliving together.
Let's talk about what do youneed?
Here's what we need.
How do we create the bestwin-win possible?
But have the conversation beforewe quote, pick up where we left
off when they left for collegeyears ago.
They come back different people.
We need to treat themdifferently because they come
(24:18):
back different people.
But we don't do that.
We just kind of think we justpick up where we left off.
No, that's not what happens.
SPEAKER_00 (24:25):
What happens when you have the adult child that
doesn't respect your boundaries?
So you've said this very nicely,they've agreed, and all of a
sudden you wake up and there's agirl leaving the house or
whatever, or they're on thecouch and not helping with
anything.
I mean, I've I get lots ofletters like this.
How do the parents handlesomething like that?
SPEAKER_01 (24:41):
I think again, if they come back, you have to say,
let me tell you what ourexpectations are.
There will need to be a job,there will need to be
involvement in a full-timeeducational program.
I mean, lay out here's ourexpectations.
If there's some kind of a mentalillness or treatment program,
then you say we expect you to beinvolved in this or this or
this.
(25:02):
Because living here doingnothing is not an option.
We're all contributing, we'reall working.
We expect you to either beemployed, be in school,
contributing in some way, butjust living here freeloading
isn't an option.
You're an adult, we're gonnatreat you like an adult, but
adults have adultresponsibilities.
Therefore, we need you to comeback and tell us how are you
(25:25):
gonna contribute to the world,how are you gonna contribute to
our home.
We'll give you a couple days tofigure that out.
But this is really important tous.
It's an act of love.
And sometimes you have to givekids space because they've been
through things.
I'm not talking about beingsevere.
Yeah, you know what I'm saying?
But I've talked to too manyparents where we're three years
in and the adult child hasn'tworked, hasn't gone to school,
(25:48):
hasn't stayed consistent intheir treatment program.
I mean, nothing.
They're like, what do we do?
You're gonna hold boundaries andyou're gonna let them have to
problem solve.
You're gonna put it in writing,you're gonna look give them very
specific an outline ofexpectations, and they get to
choose, they get to make thechoice.
You're simply gonna carry outthe their choice, whatever that
(26:10):
is.
And that way it's they're makingchoices and decisions.
You're not doing this to them.
They've made the choices, you'resimply executing the the outcome
of their choice.
But we have to be willing to letthem suffer.
We have to be willing to letthem have some hard times, and
that's where most parents justcollapse.
They are not willing to lettheir kid have to figure it out.
(26:32):
And what they don't understandis every time they rescue them,
they're insulting them.
Not helpful.
SPEAKER_00 (26:37):
Yep.
Everything you're saying isreally hard for parents who have
been overly involved with theirkids growing up.
I love what you said about yourexpectations are a reflection of
your own insecurities.
I think that's so true.
All right.
I'm moving to one of your othercore relationship values, which
is tone of voice.
I'd love to hear what you haveto say about tone of voice.
(26:58):
Look at you! That look on yourface says it all.
SPEAKER_01 (27:01):
I just can't even tell you.
When we open our mouths, whatcomes out of our mouth decides
if our child hears us as if theywere five or 10 or 15, right?
It triggers memories from thetimes past and how we use their
name.
Our inflection, like justtriggers all kinds of flood of
(27:22):
memories, whether it was a goodconversation or conflicting
conversation or whatever.
It just all comes back in.
So we have to really payattention to our behavior, our
eyes, you know, because we eyeroll like they eye rolled.
Well, all the things that wewere frustrated with them,
they're gonna be frustrated withus, or it's gonna send a
message.
We really have to be veryself-aware, especially if the
(27:46):
conversation's hard.
I need to be very meteredbecause, like I said, anxiety is
contagious.
And the minute my voice raises,their anxiety is gonna be far
higher.
And I don't want them managingme, I want them hearing my
heart.
What do you mean by managingyou?
Let's say I react and I getupset and I'm mad and I'm
(28:08):
frustrated and I'm loud, theissue at that point becomes
secondary to the fact of themgetting me calmed down.
Got it.
SPEAKER_00 (28:15):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (28:16):
I'm not gonna pay attention to the issue until
they get me calmed down.
And then because I've reacted soseverely, they know exactly what
I want from them.
And what happens if what I wantfrom them, they can't provide me
or it's not of value to them.
SPEAKER_00 (28:30):
Do you have clients practice tone of voice?
SPEAKER_01 (28:34):
Oh, yeah.
I recently had a a mom's her herdaughter's like in her mid-30s.
Because she said, I'm a veryexpressive person.
See, that's how I am, and I workso hard on it.
Yeah, I have a daughter that'snot.
And she said, and the more I'mexpressive, the more she shuts
down.
But she says, What I've observedis the more steady I am, the
(28:56):
more expressive she becomes.
Look at it as there's a hundredounces in any exchange of
communication.
And if I'm 80% of the emotion,that other person's gonna
probably take on the other 20%and shut down.
So if I really want to knowsomething, I at least have to
create the environment thatsays, you're safe to give me
(29:17):
your thoughts, your ideas,whatever's going on in your
head, and I'm not gonnaoverwhelm you with my emotion
because they've managed us, likeI said, uh, their whole lives,
they've managed us.
You're so right actuallydictated how they learned to
deal with dysfunction, to behonest with you.
I can tell you from my ownexperience, my dad had a temper.
(29:40):
Um, my goal was to be flatlinedand invisible, so I didn't
activate the temper because thelast thing I wanted to have in
my world was to be seen by him.
I really didn't want to be seenbecause it was gonna be good.
So I worked very hard to be veryinvisible.
Now I learned a lot, don't getme wrong, I learned to be A lot
(30:00):
because I was a great listener,observed, became a great
awareness of other people.
I paid a price.
SPEAKER_00 (30:05):
I'm so happy you two came together later in life.
That's so wonderful.
Yeah, such a gift, such a gift.
Okay.
Self-reflection.
SPEAKER_01 (30:13):
Probably one of the most important skill sets that a
parent can have.
SPEAKER_00 (30:17):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (30:18):
If we don't have it, we're going to keep running into
a buzzsaw.
It gets more complicated whenyou bring in the in-laws.
When the a child marriessomebody and we don't have
self-awareness, we will saythings we shouldn't say, do
things we shouldn't do, and wecan create more problems for
those future relationshipsbecause we lack the sensitivity,
(30:39):
we lack the ability to haveself-control, to ask the
questions versus makeassumptions, have judgments,
project expectations.
You want to kill a relationshipwith a future in-law.
Just keep talking about what youthink they should do or should
be or how something should go.
(30:59):
And you're you're just pavingthat path for a propeller blade.
Not good, not healthy.
SPEAKER_00 (31:05):
All of this is so hard.
I think of myself, most of mylife I was in the business
world, and that was my job.
SPEAKER_01 (31:10):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (31:10):
Solve the problems, tell people what they need to
do, blah, blah, blah.
And all of a sudden, you can'tdo anything you were good at.
SPEAKER_01 (31:18):
Right, right.
Right.
It's hard.
SPEAKER_00 (31:21):
Yeah, it's very, very, and that's all about
self-reflection.
SPEAKER_01 (31:24):
Well, that's exactly right.
Here's the other thing is thatwe love these kids, right?
Yes.
This is our heart walkingoutside our body.
Now we're being told don't sayanything.
And it just about kills us.
SPEAKER_00 (31:37):
When you say don't treat them like children, we
have to keep putting on ourheads, they're adults now.
SPEAKER_01 (31:43):
If we insult when we assume they don't think.
SPEAKER_00 (31:48):
Right.
And we have to have that in ourhead all the time because we
have to have confidence thatthey're going to make the right
decisions.
And if they don't, they'llfigure it out.
But boy, sounds so easy when wetalk about it here, Catherine.
SPEAKER_01 (32:00):
I have two children.
I have a son and I have adaughter.
My son always said to me, I haveto learn everything the hard
way, mom.
I had a daughter who said, Oh,no, no, I'm going to watch him
and learn one video.
SPEAKER_00 (32:13):
Right, right, right.
Very interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (32:15):
So the son who always said, I have to learn it
the hard way, I had to let himlearn it the hard way.
There were some pretty painfullessons.
SPEAKER_00 (32:22):
And you were a psychotherapist.
So you also had to say, uh-oh,I'm counseling other people and
watching my kids spiral.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (32:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you're like, this is reallyhard.
But I know I know him and I knowhe's right.
He has to learn it the way helearns.
I'm just going to have to quotestay, step over, stay out of the
way.
And when he falls, I'll be thereand say, I'm here.
How can I support you?
What did you learn?
What needs to happen next?
SPEAKER_00 (32:50):
Okay, we're going to do one more thing, and then I'm
going to do a quick, rapid-fireholiday round.
Okay.
Because I could talk to you forhours.
I want to talk about grief.
You mentioned grief, and I thinkthe grief must involve letting
go of your expectations.
Yeah.
I guess judgment, does judgmentcome into play with grief?
Or tell us about grief becauseyou have all you write a lot
about it.
SPEAKER_01 (33:11):
Okay.
How about I give you a story?
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (33:13):
I love your story.
I love your stories.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (33:16):
My son's best friend got married.
We were at the wedding.
During that time, it comes timefor the mother-son dance.
They picked the song that Iwould pick if my son was getting
married, right?
I'm sitting at the reception,they're dancing, and I start to
cry.
I'm asking myself, what arethese tears about?
There is this awareness in themoment that I will probably
never have a mother-son dance.
(33:38):
The reason I had that awarenesswas because my son had never
dated a woman from the UnitedStates.
He was always dating othercultured women.
They don't practice the samewedding practices.
I had attended probably three tofour hundred weddings because my
dad was a minister.
I had been married to a ministerfor 35 years.
So I had a whole memory bank ofall kinds of weddings.
(34:03):
And I would imagine my kidsgetting married.
In that moment, I realized thatwill probably never be me.
And I had to grieve the fact Iwould not have that moment.
I grieve it.
My daughter's there.
She takes my hand.
She knows why I'm grieving.
My son is clueless.
He has no idea why I'm fastforward four years.
I get a call from my son.
(34:23):
He said, Hey, mom, I'm gettingmarried in 60 days.
Would you come to the wedding?
He's on the other side of theworld.
He's living in Singapore.
And I said, Of course I'll bethere.
I get my ticket.
I head there.
Their traditions looked nothinglike anything I'd ever
experienced before.
I read up on them.
I got as knowledgeable as Icould.
(34:44):
And I went to this wedding and Ihad an amazing time.
I got to meet all of her family.
I got to enjoy every singlemoment.
I would not have been able to dothat had I not grieved something
that I thought was going to bemine.
I could fully embrace and betotally present for his moment
the way he wanted to do it.
(35:06):
Because I didn't bring anybaggage of expectation of what I
thought it should be.
And I think when we giveourselves permission to grieve
the moments, whether they'resmall or they're big, we can get
really clean, really honest.
We can let it go, and then we'llbe ready to receive and be what
they need us to be versus whatwe want it to be.
(35:26):
And that's a big difference.
And I just think that grief isjust a gift.
Some things are harder to let goof than others.
I'm not gonna lie.
I've had to grieve some thingsthat I didn't think I would have
to grieve.
But I will tell you, I'mgrateful that I learned it
because I want to be purehearted when I'm with them.
I really don't want to bring myunfinished business that's not
(35:47):
theirs to carry into thatrelationship.
I don't blame us as parents.
I mean, the minute we find outwe're having a child, we
immediately begin to have dreamsand visions and expectations of
what if this or what if that.
And my son's adopted, actually.
And his mother gave me a letterbefore he was born.
In the letter, she gave me herdreams for him.
(36:08):
Her dreams started and she nevergot to hold him.
It's just such an innate part ofwho we are that we need to honor
that and not beat ourselves upfor having dreams or or being
disappointed when things don'tgo the way we thought, but we
can't weigh them down with stuffthat was not theirs to ever
carry to begin with.
And grief really helps usrelease that and move forward.
(36:31):
That's the gift that I think wecan give if we're if we'll stay
aware.
That's why self-awareness isimportant, staying connected to
our emotions.
Yeah.
So we can bring the best versionof us to them with them.
SPEAKER_00 (36:43):
I want to mention to everyone, because I've enjoyed
this conversation so much.
Catherine has a great freeresource you need to check out.
It's seven keys to talking withyour adult children.
And I will put a link to it.
I know it's leaderpass.com,parenting adult children today,
forward slash preview.
I'll put a link in the episodenotes.
(37:04):
I found it wonderful.
She talks to you in many videos.
She gives you lots of tools towork with.
So it's conversations much likethis with Catherine.
Well, you don't get to talk toher.
She talks to you, but it'sgreat.
Okay, Catherine, let's have somefun with this rapid fire holiday
round.
SPEAKER_01 (37:20):
Okay.
Are you ready?
I'm ready.
Let's let's go.
SPEAKER_00 (37:23):
Okay, let's go.
Catherine, the number onemistake parents make when
they're prepping for theholidays.
SPEAKER_01 (37:29):
Their expectations that all the traditions will
continue.
SPEAKER_00 (37:33):
How do you cope if no one's coming home this year?
SPEAKER_01 (37:36):
You get a life, create your own journey of joy,
and you figure out where do youget to celebrate and do it
because you matter and you'reimportant.
SPEAKER_00 (37:46):
Tips for welcoming a new partner or significant other
to your home at the holidays.
SPEAKER_01 (37:51):
Call ahead of time, welcome them, let them know
you're excited about themcoming.
Ask them if they have somethingthat they would like for
breakfast or a special scentthat brings back really sweet
memories from their past.
Just being thoughtful andletting them know you are
looking forward to thisexperience.
That's great.
SPEAKER_00 (38:09):
What do you do when your kids slip into the
childhood mode when they visit?
Because that happens a lot.
Suddenly the rooms are messy,they're leaving their dishes
everywhere.
They become that teenager againwhen they come back home.
SPEAKER_01 (38:21):
I think you can sit down and have a conversation if
it's not just like a one-timething, but you're just noticing
a pattern and just say, hey,look, I'm getting a mixed
message from you.
On one hand, you want me to besure that I'm treating you like
an adult, but that there areother times when I see that you
kind of slip back.
So we need to quote get on thesame page because I don't want
there to be conflict.
(38:42):
So I just needed to put this onthe radar screen so that way you
we can continue on theadult-adult relationship.
SPEAKER_00 (38:49):
And it's all about that tone of voice, right?
It's all about that tone ofvoice.
It's all about that tone ofvoice.
Absolutely.
Best advice for parents whenthey are visiting their adult
children in another city or aplace for the holidays.
SPEAKER_01 (39:02):
Call ahead and say what would be the best way for
us to quote take the load off ofour visit with you.
Do we need to bring groceries?
Would it be helpful if we tookthe children out for a day?
How can we best support you?
So you're not feeling like, ohmy goodness, I got to now take
care of everybody.
SPEAKER_00 (39:20):
Yeah, that is the pressure.
Okay, the whole crew's together.
You've got 12 people in yourhouse sleeping everywhere.
Tensions rise.
What's your top strategy?
SPEAKER_01 (39:30):
Create opportunities for everybody to get out of the
house and go do their own thing.
So we're not all together 24-7.
Everybody needs some space.
Everybody needs some time as oftheir own little group, or the
gals can go do this, the guyscan go do this, or the
grandparents can take thegrandkids, or whatever mix it
is.
But everybody needs space toquote breathe and to not feel
(39:54):
the pressure of all theintensity that comes with all
the relationships being exposedto each other at the same time.
SPEAKER_00 (40:00):
And speaking of relationships, what do you do
when you have two siblings?
Let's say you've got three orfour, but two of them just do
not get along.
They seem to tolerate each otherfor the first day together, but
by the second day, it's reallyuncomfortable for everyone.
SPEAKER_01 (40:14):
Well, and I think if you know that's going to happen,
you may even want to have aconversation ahead of time and
say, look, I know that you andyour brother are at odds right
now, but I want to you to putthis in your head that what do
you need to do in order to comeand be the very best version of
you with him?
Is there anything the two of youneed to be talking about before
(40:34):
you come here?
And if it can't be, I just wantyou to know I love you.
I want you here.
Let me know how I can supportyou.
I'm not gonna take sides, butjust let me know if you need
some space and you need to walkaway, that's fine.
Do what you need to do to takecare of you.
But I am aware that y'all arenot doing well.
Uh and let me know how I cansupport you, but I'm not gonna
(40:56):
be the referee.
Right.
That's perfect.
SPEAKER_00 (40:58):
Catherine, this has been terrific.
We've been doing this for fouryears, and I've had lots of
guests, and I'm always thinking,well, maybe I'm gonna stop the
podcast because there's not manyfresh ideas.
This was so fresh and sowonderful.
So I can't thank you enough.
But before we leave, I alwaysask my guests for two takeaways
that you want our listeners toremember after they've pressed
(41:19):
stop on the podcast.
What would you say?
SPEAKER_01 (41:22):
The very first thing is for us to remember it is
never too late to be a greatparent.
As long as there's breath in ourbody, we can work and grow and
evolve and change to be thehealthiest version of ourselves.
We can't control what our adultchildren choose to do with that,
but at least we know we havegiven it everything that we
could, and that's all we can askfor.
(41:43):
Then I think the second thing isreally get self-aware on what
expectations you bring into thatrelationship with your adult
children.
We often have great intentions,our hearts are right and we want
the best, but sometimes we canreally weigh them down and they
think they could never make ushappy or will never meet our
expectations.
That's not the way we want ourchildren to remember our
(42:05):
relationship.
So get honest, get clean, getrid of them.
And if you need to, apologize.
Let them know hey, I've put thison you.
This is about me, this isn'tabout you.
I love you, period.
There's no if, and, or but,period.
I think there's something veryfreeing when we do that.
SPEAKER_00 (42:21):
Great takeaways, really terrific.
Catherine, this has been sohelpful and so real.
I loved your stories.
Thank you for sharing yourinsight, your humor, and of
course your heart.
We really appreciate it.
And I'll make sure to mentionyour website and a lot more
about you in our episode notes.
So thanks for joining.
SPEAKER_01 (42:37):
Well, thank you so much for having me in.
I wish everybody a reallywonderful holiday.
SPEAKER_00 (42:45):
Well, that's a wrap.
I think we really have a lot tothink about.
At least she gave me a lot tothink about.
That beginning when she talkedabout adult children really not
being themselves when they'rearound their parents, was very
enlightening to me.
And so many things about ourexpectations pulling them down.
I really think she's right on somany levels.
(43:06):
I hope you'll check out herwebsite, parenting
adultchildrentoday.com.
And that's where you'll be ableto get a free pre-review of the
seven keys to talking with youradult children.
And I'll also link them in ourepisode notes.
I also wish all of you apleasant, relaxing, wonderful
holiday period.
Remember, your role may havechanged, but your relationship
(43:28):
can keep growing with love,curiosity, and maybe a little
less unsolicited advice.
And that goes with saying hey,sometimes you may have to bite
your tongue.
As my kids got older and I began to grow with them, I
began to realize we don't haveresources out here to help
parents deal with what Iconsider actually the most
significant time in the life ofour children.
Yes, development is important.
I get all of that.
I'm totally aware, I totallyagree.
But I gotta tell you, you lose alot of young adults from 18 to
(00:27):
25 because they didn't have therelationships that they could
have had with the people whoraised them.
Because the parents bring theirexpectations, they bring their
opinions to that relationship,and it just snuffs the life out
of the confidence in those adultchildren.
SPEAKER_00 (00:49):
Hey everyone, welcome to Bite Your Tongue the
Podcast.
Join me, your host, DeniseGorin, as we explore the ins and
outs of building healthyrelationships with our adult
children.
Together we'll speak withexperts, share heartfelt
stories, and get timely advice,addressing topics that matter
most to you.
Get ready to dive deep and learnto build and nurture deep
(01:12):
connections with our adultchildren.
And of course, when to bite ourtongues.
So let's get started.
Hi everyone, welcome back toanother episode of Bite Your
Tongue the Podcast.
I'm Denise, and I'm ready todive in to another great episode
today.
So glad you're with us.
It means so much.
You know, it's gotten reallychilly here in Denver, and that
(01:33):
cozy vibe got us thinking thisis the perfect time to start
talking about holiday prep.
Not about decorations and gifts,mind you, but about visiting and
being visited by our adultchildren.
We've got a great guest joiningus shortly, and she'll talk all
about it.
But before we dive in, I have asmall favor to ask.
And don't worry, it's not aboutdonations or money, though we
(01:54):
never say no to that support.
This time it's about helping usgrow our community online.
Each of our episodes getsthousands of downloads, which is
amazing, and we're trulygrateful.
But we'd like to see that sameenergy on social media.
So if you enjoy the show, pleasetake a minute to follow us.
On Facebook, just search BiteYour Tongue Podcast and on
(02:16):
Instagram at BiteYourTonguePod.
Look for our big pink logo.
Even if you're not a socialmedia fan, trust me, I get it.
Your following us really helpsus reach more parents like you,
but also gives our littlepodcast some big time
credibility.
It would mean the world to us.
All right, let's jump intotoday's episode.
(02:37):
We're thrilled to have with ustoday Catherine Hickam.
She's a psychotherapist, author,and founder of Parenting Adult
Children Today.
She calls it PACT.
It's a groundbreaking initiativethat helps parents navigate this
tricky, beautiful, but sometimesbaffling world of parenting
grown kids.
(02:58):
With the holidays coming up,we're going to talk about how to
prepare emotionally, mentally,and even spiritually for all
that family togetherness.
We'll also dive into some ofCatherine's guiding principles
and practical tools to help usimprove our relationships with
our adult children right now.
Catherine believes that buildinga great relationship with your
(03:18):
adult child isn't about beingperfect.
Thank goodness.
It's about showing up withintention, love, and grace.
So let's dive in.
Welcome, Catherine.
We're so glad to have you withus.
And you know that all of ourlisteners are parents of adult
children, and we've promisedsome holiday tips, so we'll get
to that.
But I want to know first how youstarted this pact, a parenting
(03:42):
association, what is it?
P-A-C-T.
Say it for me.
What is it?
Parenting adult children today.
That's right.
How did this all begin for you?
SPEAKER_01 (03:50):
It started when my own children were in their early
20s.
And I was listening.
I'll tell you a quick story.
One of my daughter's friends hadvisited her when she was home
during summer.
He said to me, He said, Mrs.
Hickham, did you know that yourdaughter is the only friend that
I have that is the same in frontof her parents as she is behind
their back?
(04:11):
Oh, interesting.
And I said, Really?
And he said, Yes.
He said, It's true.
And I said, Well, what aboutyou?
Are you the same?
And he said, Oh, no, absolutelynot.
And I said, Well, Jason, what'sthat about?
He said, Oh no, Ms.
Hickam, I figured out.
He said, When I go home to bewith my mom and dad, I become
who they want me to be.
(04:31):
Because if I don't, my momcries, my dad gets mad.
And he said, So I just change.
And he says, and when I walk outthe door, I go back to being
myself.
And he said, That's what myfriends do.
It was like I got hit in thegut.
It really was a very soberingmoment when I heard him say
that.
And it made me incredibly sad.
(04:53):
That is really sad.
Isn't it just painful?
Painful.
And I thought, where do you gowhen you need to be your full
self?
Where do you go?
What I began to watch, observe,and listen was that they would
go to their friends, but theywouldn't go to their parents.
(05:14):
And I thought, this is a hugeopportunity that parents are
missing out on because they needto go to someplace where someone
loves them, accepts them, andwill stick by them.
Their friends are in the sameboat that they're in.
So they're not going to have thewisdom or the life experience or
resources or the insight to knowhow to support them.
(05:35):
I mean, I'm glad that they haveeach other as friends, but but
there are some things in lifethat are too big for your friend
just to be their only source ofsupport.
This is the wisdom that parentscould give and the resources
they could be if the kidsweren't so frightened to
disappoint them or deal withtheir anxiety or their
frustrations because they didn'tturn out like they thought they
(05:56):
should, or they were differentthan how they thought they
should be.
It really just awakened a wholenother level for me because I'd
been a therapist.
I'd specialized in parenting.
My area was focusing really on18 and under.
But as my kids got older and Ibegan to grow with them as they
grew, I began to realize wedon't have resources out here to
(06:16):
help parents deal with what Iconsider actually the most
significant time and the life ofour children.
I mean, yes, development isimportant.
I get all of that.
And you know, I'm I'm totallyaware, I totally agree, but I
gotta tell you, you lose a lotof young adults from 18 to 25
because they didn't have therelationships that they could
(06:37):
have had with the people whoraised them, because the parents
bring their expectations, theybring their opinions to that
relationship, and it just snuffsthe life out of the confidence
in those adult children.
SPEAKER_00 (06:50):
Let's start with that, because that's a huge
statement and a sad statement.
I think you said to me when wewere first talking, how many
parents of adult children areout there now, or how many adult
children are in the world?
SPEAKER_01 (07:01):
There's a 100 million parents of adult
children from the ages of 18 to45, and that's just in the
United States.
There's some statistics that arepretty sobering.
Like 26.1% of adult childrenhave an estranged relationship
with at least one, if not bothparents.
Then their mental health is36.2% of young adults between 18
(07:25):
and 25 have a mental illness.
29.4% have a mental illnessbetween 26 and 46.
SPEAKER_00 (07:32):
Do you think some of that is just that mental illness
is more readily recognized nowthan it was before?
Or is it go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (07:41):
I will tell you, I think it's higher.
And there's a reason for that.
And that is over the years, asthe illegal drugs, you know,
whether it's pod or whatever,the substances that have been
laced in those have actuallybecome triggers for mental
health disorders that would havelaid dormant forever had not
(08:03):
that particular substanceactivated it.
And once that that illness isactivated, it can't be put back
in.
Once it's out, it is now anissue.
I do think we have a higher rateof disorders because of the
activation of chemicals in thebrain that the brain doesn't
know how to deal with.
And I also think we have thehighest level of anxiety that
(08:26):
probably we have ever seenbecause we don't have resiliency
as a culture like we once had.
And so you throw all thosethings together.
We've got some prettysignificant culture issues that
are impacting relationships inthe home.
And vice versa, the issues thatare in the home are impacting
the culture.
(08:46):
So we've we've got a problemthat we need to be really taking
very seriously so that way wecan at least have peace within
our own homes and our ownfamilies.
But when you have estrangementat 26.1%, I that is that's an
alarming statistic to me.
SPEAKER_00 (09:02):
This is a sad statement.
We've started off with many ofus might not really know our
adult children.
They're a different person whenthey're with us.
What can we do, or what do youadvise parents to recognize
this?
Do you talk to your kid aboutit?
Or what sorts of things canparents do?
Here's what I'll tell you.
SPEAKER_01 (09:18):
Um, as long as there's breath in our body,
there's hope.
And I'm a big believer inredemption and restoration.
I am the byproduct of a father,of a very difficult relationship
with a father that at 25, I hada really heart-to-heart
conversation with him about somereally hard things.
And he took ownership and hesaid, if I could do it over, I
(09:42):
would do it over.
He said, But I can't.
The only thing I can do is I cangive you my word that moving
forward, I could be the dad thatyou need, not the dad that you
had.
And for the rest of my adultlife, my dad worked very
intentionally to be an amazingfather that I didn't have from
five to 25.
Incredibly grateful, but hemodeled for me redemption.
(10:04):
He modeled for me that as longas I could see he was willing to
work and change and grow, Ijumped right in.
And I am, I feel very fortunatethat I had the experience of
ending my relationship with mydad in a much, much better way
than how I had how it started.
I have watched as a therapist,right, as a parenting specialist
(10:25):
over the years, I have just seenredemption, restoration,
forgiveness, learning, growing,um change.
And so I'm, I know it canhappen.
I realize that in some familiesthere's a lot of water that's
gone under the bridge, but inmost circumstances, um, I will
tell you that I think that it'spossible.
It's a question (10:44):
are we willing to do the work?
Are we willing to listen?
Are we willing to grow and becurious instead of holding on to
our expectations and our beliefsand all those things that we've
been willing to die on the hillfor?
Can I step back and be a studentof my children and really learn
who they are versus who Ithought they were?
SPEAKER_00 (11:06):
Yes, it makes perfect sense.
I love that because one of thethings we've stressed almost in
every episode, and you kind ofreferred to this.
We have to look at ourselves.
I think many times parents seethe issue as their kids and they
don't play a role.
Does that make any sense?
Because we grew up in a societywhere it was honor they father
(11:27):
and mother, and we did whateverit took to make sure our parents
were happy.
Whereas I think this generationtakes care of themselves too,
which is valuable and good forthem.
But we don't get thatcompletely.
SPEAKER_01 (11:40):
Well, it's it's also a message that we kind of send
them from the very beginning.
You're right.
So, therefore, we're responsiblefor the messaging that we
infused in them that we're nowhaving to live with and deal
with.
You are so right.
That's exactly right.
We really have to look at themirror on this one.
I don't want anyone to hear thiswrong.
(12:02):
We'll never quote overvalue ourchildren per se, but sometimes
we have done some things out ofbalance, which is never healthy.
Anytime we're out of balance,it's never healthy.
I remember when I was doingparenting years ago with the
under 18 crowd, I would say tomom and dad, I would say, every
10th pizza, you get the lastpiece of pizza.
SPEAKER_00 (12:25):
I had an episode called The Burnt Hamburger, and
it was out the mother alwaystaking the burnt hamburger.
SPEAKER_01 (12:31):
There you go.
That's the exact lesson, right?
SPEAKER_00 (12:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:34):
Why did I say I want the parent to take the last?
So they would see that sometimesI matter.
I'm the most important one inthat moment or that day or that
event.
They're not always the numberone.
They can sometimes be numbertwo, number three, number four,
because that's what life is.
We're not always number one.
We have to learn how to shift,to have to adapt.
(12:55):
It's not always about us, it'ssometimes it's about other
people, and that's okay.
That's what we call balance,that's what we call teaching
kids and adult, young adults.
How do you think of somebodybeside yourself?
How do we create anunderstanding of empathy?
How do we not raise narcissists?
Those are some incrediblyimportant questions we need to
(13:16):
be thinking about.
And so it's important that wegive ourselves value.
And this is one of the thingsthat I think as parents, we need
to be looking at ourselvesbecause too often our value is
attached to how our adultchildren turn out.
And our value has to becompletely separate and
independent because one, it'snot, it's too much pressure on
(13:38):
them that if my happiness isdependent upon them, that's too
weighty to put on the shouldersof a young adult.
Secondly, I'm responsible for myhappiness.
They're not responsible forthat.
And I don't want to beresponsible for their happiness
either.
So, you know, there's a lot ofshifts, a lot of changes that we
(13:58):
have to recognize our naturalevolution of us going from
parenting when we wereresponsible for them while they
were at home to when they becamea young adult and an adult, that
we have to really shift the waywe think.
So our self-worth isn't tied totheir choices, their decisions,
(14:19):
their outcomes.
That's not fair to anybody.
Everybody loses when we areimbalanced.
And we've not done a really goodjob of that.
SPEAKER_00 (14:29):
And how do you tell that to a parent who's given
their whole life to raisingkids?
And I see it now in this nextgeneration too.
It's funny because I was justvisiting my daughter.
I have a new grand, my firstgrandchild, five months old, and
I looked at her and I said, youknow, there's nothing wrong with
benign neglect because youoverdo it as a parent of a baby.
And I see it coming in with thewhole next generation following
(14:51):
our footsteps, but evenamplified.
SPEAKER_01 (14:54):
So, so much.
This is one of the reasons why Ijumped into this particular area
was because we haveover-emphasized and we don't let
children learn how toself-soothe.
We don't let them struggle.
It's like struggle is what makesthem strong.
We put a kid on a playmat and wehand them the toy every time
(15:15):
they go to reach it.
They're not going to develop themuscle tone that they need to be
able to then crawl and thenwalk.
But we're also takingopportunities away for them to
develop confidence.
And to me, that is that's partof the damage that we've done.
We've not given themopportunities to develop
self-worth, self-confidence thatthey can overcome, they can
persevere, they can pushthrough.
(15:37):
I mean, what an incrediblefeeling to know that I've done
something hard and I've gottento the other side.
And this is what, you know, asyoung adults that we have in our
homes and adults, we have torespect them, but they have to
(15:59):
work through the process.
They will learn, they will growjust like we did when we were
making decisions and we weremaking mistakes.
But we have to, we're too quickto rescue, we're too quick to
give our opinion, we're tooquick to tell them what to do.
Not helpful, not encouraging.
SPEAKER_00 (16:16):
So hard.
I want to go back to theexpectations that you were
talking about, not tying up ourhappiness with their happiness
and all of that.
Give any advice for parents thathave given their whole life to
raising their children, hadexpectations that they were
going to be best buds when theybecame adult kids.
The kid feels this tension thatall their expectations, you
(16:36):
know, their parent thinksthey're not a doctor, they're
not a lawyer, they're not a CEO,they're not a tech genius or
whatever.
How do parents deal with thosefeelings?
SPEAKER_01 (16:45):
Those feelings are a reflection of how the parents
are insecure.
Oh, yeah, you're right.
You're right.
Basically saying, I wasn'tenough because if I was enough,
they would be making differentchoices and they would be this.
Not not true.
And when we have a hole that wehaven't filled in a healthy way
or addressed our own notenoughness, we project it onto
(17:09):
them, and now they're carryingour not enoughness, and we've
sent a message that they're notnot enough, and now they don't
want to be around people thatremind them they're not enough.
So estrangement happens,disconnect happens.
If I every time I see them, I'ma disappointment or I think I've
disappointed you in some way.
Why do I want to hang around?
(17:30):
I wouldn't, that's for sure.
It's not fun, painful.
SPEAKER_00 (17:33):
And sometimes even the parent can't fake it.
SPEAKER_01 (17:36):
No.
Oh, parents, our children knowus better than we know
ourselves.
That's the problem.
Because they've lived with alife, they've lived a lifetime
with us.
They know when we're faking it,they know when we're not being
genuine, and they've heard thecomments that we've made about
other people, about otherpeople's kids.
Yeah.
Therefore, guess what?
They don't forget.
(17:57):
This is the reason I can't tellmy mom this, is because I heard
what she said about, you know,my cousin so-and-so.
So they don't tell you.
So they just keep it inside andthey live a secret life.
Parents would be shocked,shocked if they really knew the
struggles our kids had that theydon't feel the safety to be able
to talk about.
I want us to change that becauseyou know what?
(18:18):
We love our kids, we want thebest for our kids.
We don't want them to strugglethat way.
We just don't know that we'rewe're messing them up.
SPEAKER_00 (18:25):
We don't know that we're we're presenting that way.
So you have some guidingprinciples I want to go over so
we can at least give some.
This is also interesting, but Iwant our listeners to have
something they can take away towork on.
We talked about expectations,but one of the things you also
talked about treating them likechildren.
SPEAKER_01 (18:43):
You have to remember our job in the first 18 years of
life was to be a teacher, right?
We were to teach them about allkinds of things in terms of
preparing them for life, beingwilling to release them.
But we get to that point ofreleasing them, and then what we
do is we hold on, we push backwhen they try to become
independent because we'rescared.
(19:03):
And that fear is contagious andit falls over onto them.
And so what we want to do is getreally honest about what's my
biggest fear.
And if we can sit with that, thehonesty of that fear, then we
can make a decision.
Is that the what I want to handthem as they leave, or do I want
to hand them my belief that theycan do this?
(19:26):
Even though I may not fullyunderstand what all that will
mean, am I gonna give them thegift of my confidence and my
belief in who they are?
Or am I going to be so scaredthat I'm gonna come off
controlling and trying to managetheir lives?
Because if I try to quote,parent them the way I did when
they were little, I will losethem.
SPEAKER_00 (19:47):
Can you give me an example of how a parent might
say something that sounds thatis controlling, treating them
like a child as an adult?
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
Yeah.
So for instance, let's say thattheir ki their child has gone
off to college and they'reseveral weeks into their first
semester of college, and theyhave an opportunity to go away
for the weekend at someone'shome.
Now, they've also told you thattheir first set of tests are
coming up for the new semester.
(20:14):
And so the parent would say, Areyou really sure that's a good
idea?
I'm really concerned becauseyou've got all those tests
coming back and you're gonna goparty over the weekend.
Don't you think you should bestaying back to study to get
ready for your first exams?
SPEAKER_00 (20:28):
I've said it a million times.
My kids are older now, but Iknow I've done that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:32):
See what I'm saying?
Good intentions, probably thesmart thing to do is not do that
weekend.
But you know what?
That's not our decision to make.
They may need to learn that inthe very first month of the very
first semester that they may nothave their act together as
quickly as they think they do.
So if they fall on this one,guess what?
They'll be smarter the nexttime.
(20:53):
But if they don't have the spaceto learn the lessons, guess
what's gonna happen?
I keep repeating the mistakesbecause they're gonna do it to
spite us.
Say, I'm my own person, I wantto do this.
And the truth is, we don't wantto be the reaction, we want to
not have them manage us.
We can ask questions and justsay, I'm sure that's gonna be a
(21:15):
fun weekend.
How do you feel about the testthat you're coming back to?
SPEAKER_00 (21:19):
So say it that way, let them be curious or whatever.
SPEAKER_01 (21:22):
Yeah.
That gift of curiosity, thatbecause what you're assuming the
best, and if they haven'tthought of it, you've planted a
seed, but you've not said, Well,I think that's a really stupid
idea.
And I hear parents say, that wasreally dumb.
Why would you do that?
How helpful is that?
SPEAKER_00 (21:37):
Not very helpful to anybody.
SPEAKER_01 (21:39):
It's disrespectful.
We need to talk to them the waywe would want someone to speak
to us if we were contemplating adecision that maybe we had not
fully given thought to.
So it's a question of do I treatthem respectfully or do I talk
down to them as if they have nosense?
If I really think my kid has nosense, then I need to go look in
(22:01):
the mirror and go, where was Iin the parenting world that I
didn't do my job?
Do you know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_00 (22:07):
Yeah, I get what you're saying.
SPEAKER_01 (22:09):
It's like we gotta be really we gotta be really
careful because that mirror canpop up really fast.
SPEAKER_00 (22:15):
You mentioned boundaries.
I want to hear your thoughts onboundaries because you mentioned
the importance of settingboundaries once your kids become
adults, and parents should dothat without guilt.
I have never heard about parentssetting boundaries.
I've always heard about theadult kids setting boundaries.
SPEAKER_01 (22:33):
I think parents can set boundaries.
Okay.
But I and I think we have tomake some decisions, especially
since we have such a wave ofadult children coming back home
due to the economy, due to thehorse, due to all kinds of
reasons, right?
Just the cost of living.
But before they come back home,parents need to get really clear
about what their non-negotiablesare.
(22:54):
In my home, packing up was notan option in my home.
If they wanted to do that, ifthat was a choice that they had
chosen to make, that would befine.
They could make that choice ontheir own by themselves.
But they weren't doing it inunderneath my roof.
Not something that I wantedhappening.
I didn't want people coming andgoing in the middle of the night
that I didn't know.
I needed to know when I went tobed that I was familiar with the
(23:16):
people that were in that house.
How you say something like that,you can be very judgmental and
very condescending and unkind,or you can just say, hey guys, I
just need you to understand thisis where dad and I are.
And I know it may not make senseto you, but this is what works
for us.
I need you to really recognizethis is an important boundary
for us.
And I need you to honor that.
(23:37):
And then they get to make achoice.
And if they want to live in myhouse, they get to that's fine.
But they have to, they have toagree to that.
If they are coming back, I'm notgonna be responsible for cooking
their meals.
Guess what?
And I'm gonna expect that they,if they clean mess the dishes
up, they're gonna need to cleanthe dishes up.
So it's a question of the how doI say it in a manner that says,
(23:58):
we're a team, we're all gonna beliving together.
Let's talk about what do youneed?
Here's what we need.
How do we create the bestwin-win possible?
But have the conversation beforewe quote, pick up where we left
off when they left for collegeyears ago.
They come back different people.
We need to treat themdifferently because they come
(24:18):
back different people.
But we don't do that.
We just kind of think we justpick up where we left off.
No, that's not what happens.
SPEAKER_00 (24:25):
What happens when you have the adult child that
doesn't respect your boundaries?
So you've said this very nicely,they've agreed, and all of a
sudden you wake up and there's agirl leaving the house or
whatever, or they're on thecouch and not helping with
anything.
I mean, I've I get lots ofletters like this.
How do the parents handlesomething like that?
SPEAKER_01 (24:41):
I think again, if they come back, you have to say,
let me tell you what ourexpectations are.
There will need to be a job,there will need to be
involvement in a full-timeeducational program.
I mean, lay out here's ourexpectations.
If there's some kind of a mentalillness or treatment program,
then you say we expect you to beinvolved in this or this or
this.
(25:02):
Because living here doingnothing is not an option.
We're all contributing, we'reall working.
We expect you to either beemployed, be in school,
contributing in some way, butjust living here freeloading
isn't an option.
You're an adult, we're gonnatreat you like an adult, but
adults have adultresponsibilities.
Therefore, we need you to comeback and tell us how are you
(25:25):
gonna contribute to the world,how are you gonna contribute to
our home.
We'll give you a couple days tofigure that out.
But this is really important tous.
It's an act of love.
And sometimes you have to givekids space because they've been
through things.
I'm not talking about beingsevere.
Yeah, you know what I'm saying?
But I've talked to too manyparents where we're three years
in and the adult child hasn'tworked, hasn't gone to school,
(25:48):
hasn't stayed consistent intheir treatment program.
I mean, nothing.
They're like, what do we do?
You're gonna hold boundaries andyou're gonna let them have to
problem solve.
You're gonna put it in writing,you're gonna look give them very
specific an outline ofexpectations, and they get to
choose, they get to make thechoice.
You're simply gonna carry outthe their choice, whatever that
(26:10):
is.
And that way it's they're makingchoices and decisions.
You're not doing this to them.
They've made the choices, you'resimply executing the the outcome
of their choice.
But we have to be willing to letthem suffer.
We have to be willing to letthem have some hard times, and
that's where most parents justcollapse.
They are not willing to lettheir kid have to figure it out.
(26:32):
And what they don't understandis every time they rescue them,
they're insulting them.
Not helpful.
SPEAKER_00 (26:37):
Yep.
Everything you're saying isreally hard for parents who have
been overly involved with theirkids growing up.
I love what you said about yourexpectations are a reflection of
your own insecurities.
I think that's so true.
All right.
I'm moving to one of your othercore relationship values, which
is tone of voice.
I'd love to hear what you haveto say about tone of voice.
(26:58):
Look at you! That look on yourface says it all.
SPEAKER_01 (27:01):
I just can't even tell you.
When we open our mouths, whatcomes out of our mouth decides
if our child hears us as if theywere five or 10 or 15, right?
It triggers memories from thetimes past and how we use their
name.
Our inflection, like justtriggers all kinds of flood of
(27:22):
memories, whether it was a goodconversation or conflicting
conversation or whatever.
It just all comes back in.
So we have to really payattention to our behavior, our
eyes, you know, because we eyeroll like they eye rolled.
Well, all the things that wewere frustrated with them,
they're gonna be frustrated withus, or it's gonna send a
message.
We really have to be veryself-aware, especially if the
(27:46):
conversation's hard.
I need to be very meteredbecause, like I said, anxiety is
contagious.
And the minute my voice raises,their anxiety is gonna be far
higher.
And I don't want them managingme, I want them hearing my
heart.
What do you mean by managingyou?
Let's say I react and I getupset and I'm mad and I'm
(28:08):
frustrated and I'm loud, theissue at that point becomes
secondary to the fact of themgetting me calmed down.
Got it.
SPEAKER_00 (28:15):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (28:16):
I'm not gonna pay attention to the issue until
they get me calmed down.
And then because I've reacted soseverely, they know exactly what
I want from them.
And what happens if what I wantfrom them, they can't provide me
or it's not of value to them.
SPEAKER_00 (28:30):
Do you have clients practice tone of voice?
SPEAKER_01 (28:34):
Oh, yeah.
I recently had a a mom's her herdaughter's like in her mid-30s.
Because she said, I'm a veryexpressive person.
See, that's how I am, and I workso hard on it.
Yeah, I have a daughter that'snot.
And she said, and the more I'mexpressive, the more she shuts
down.
But she says, What I've observedis the more steady I am, the
(28:56):
more expressive she becomes.
Look at it as there's a hundredounces in any exchange of
communication.
And if I'm 80% of the emotion,that other person's gonna
probably take on the other 20%and shut down.
So if I really want to knowsomething, I at least have to
create the environment thatsays, you're safe to give me
(29:17):
your thoughts, your ideas,whatever's going on in your
head, and I'm not gonnaoverwhelm you with my emotion
because they've managed us, likeI said, uh, their whole lives,
they've managed us.
You're so right actuallydictated how they learned to
deal with dysfunction, to behonest with you.
I can tell you from my ownexperience, my dad had a temper.
(29:40):
Um, my goal was to be flatlinedand invisible, so I didn't
activate the temper because thelast thing I wanted to have in
my world was to be seen by him.
I really didn't want to be seenbecause it was gonna be good.
So I worked very hard to be veryinvisible.
Now I learned a lot, don't getme wrong, I learned to be A lot
(30:00):
because I was a great listener,observed, became a great
awareness of other people.
I paid a price.
SPEAKER_00 (30:05):
I'm so happy you two came together later in life.
That's so wonderful.
Yeah, such a gift, such a gift.
Okay.
Self-reflection.
SPEAKER_01 (30:13):
Probably one of the most important skill sets that a
parent can have.
SPEAKER_00 (30:17):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (30:18):
If we don't have it, we're going to keep running into
a buzzsaw.
It gets more complicated whenyou bring in the in-laws.
When the a child marriessomebody and we don't have
self-awareness, we will saythings we shouldn't say, do
things we shouldn't do, and wecan create more problems for
those future relationshipsbecause we lack the sensitivity,
(30:39):
we lack the ability to haveself-control, to ask the
questions versus makeassumptions, have judgments,
project expectations.
You want to kill a relationshipwith a future in-law.
Just keep talking about what youthink they should do or should
be or how something should go.
(30:59):
And you're you're just pavingthat path for a propeller blade.
Not good, not healthy.
SPEAKER_00 (31:05):
All of this is so hard.
I think of myself, most of mylife I was in the business
world, and that was my job.
SPEAKER_01 (31:10):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (31:10):
Solve the problems, tell people what they need to
do, blah, blah, blah.
And all of a sudden, you can'tdo anything you were good at.
SPEAKER_01 (31:18):
Right, right.
Right.
It's hard.
SPEAKER_00 (31:21):
Yeah, it's very, very, and that's all about
self-reflection.
SPEAKER_01 (31:24):
Well, that's exactly right.
Here's the other thing is thatwe love these kids, right?
Yes.
This is our heart walkingoutside our body.
Now we're being told don't sayanything.
And it just about kills us.
SPEAKER_00 (31:37):
When you say don't treat them like children, we
have to keep putting on ourheads, they're adults now.
SPEAKER_01 (31:43):
If we insult when we assume they don't think.
SPEAKER_00 (31:48):
Right.
And we have to have that in ourhead all the time because we
have to have confidence thatthey're going to make the right
decisions.
And if they don't, they'llfigure it out.
But boy, sounds so easy when wetalk about it here, Catherine.
SPEAKER_01 (32:00):
I have two children.
I have a son and I have adaughter.
My son always said to me, I haveto learn everything the hard
way, mom.
I had a daughter who said, Oh,no, no, I'm going to watch him
and learn one video.
SPEAKER_00 (32:13):
Right, right, right.
Very interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (32:15):
So the son who always said, I have to learn it
the hard way, I had to let himlearn it the hard way.
There were some pretty painfullessons.
SPEAKER_00 (32:22):
And you were a psychotherapist.
So you also had to say, uh-oh,I'm counseling other people and
watching my kids spiral.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (32:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you're like, this is reallyhard.
But I know I know him and I knowhe's right.
He has to learn it the way helearns.
I'm just going to have to quotestay, step over, stay out of the
way.
And when he falls, I'll be thereand say, I'm here.
How can I support you?
What did you learn?
What needs to happen next?
SPEAKER_00 (32:50):
Okay, we're going to do one more thing, and then I'm
going to do a quick, rapid-fireholiday round.
Okay.
Because I could talk to you forhours.
I want to talk about grief.
You mentioned grief, and I thinkthe grief must involve letting
go of your expectations.
Yeah.
I guess judgment, does judgmentcome into play with grief?
Or tell us about grief becauseyou have all you write a lot
about it.
SPEAKER_01 (33:11):
Okay.
How about I give you a story?
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (33:13):
I love your story.
I love your stories.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (33:16):
My son's best friend got married.
We were at the wedding.
During that time, it comes timefor the mother-son dance.
They picked the song that Iwould pick if my son was getting
married, right?
I'm sitting at the reception,they're dancing, and I start to
cry.
I'm asking myself, what arethese tears about?
There is this awareness in themoment that I will probably
never have a mother-son dance.
(33:38):
The reason I had that awarenesswas because my son had never
dated a woman from the UnitedStates.
He was always dating othercultured women.
They don't practice the samewedding practices.
I had attended probably three tofour hundred weddings because my
dad was a minister.
I had been married to a ministerfor 35 years.
So I had a whole memory bank ofall kinds of weddings.
(34:03):
And I would imagine my kidsgetting married.
In that moment, I realized thatwill probably never be me.
And I had to grieve the fact Iwould not have that moment.
I grieve it.
My daughter's there.
She takes my hand.
She knows why I'm grieving.
My son is clueless.
He has no idea why I'm fastforward four years.
I get a call from my son.
(34:23):
He said, Hey, mom, I'm gettingmarried in 60 days.
Would you come to the wedding?
He's on the other side of theworld.
He's living in Singapore.
And I said, Of course I'll bethere.
I get my ticket.
I head there.
Their traditions looked nothinglike anything I'd ever
experienced before.
I read up on them.
I got as knowledgeable as Icould.
(34:44):
And I went to this wedding and Ihad an amazing time.
I got to meet all of her family.
I got to enjoy every singlemoment.
I would not have been able to dothat had I not grieved something
that I thought was going to bemine.
I could fully embrace and betotally present for his moment
the way he wanted to do it.
(35:06):
Because I didn't bring anybaggage of expectation of what I
thought it should be.
And I think when we giveourselves permission to grieve
the moments, whether they'resmall or they're big, we can get
really clean, really honest.
We can let it go, and then we'llbe ready to receive and be what
they need us to be versus whatwe want it to be.
(35:26):
And that's a big difference.
And I just think that grief isjust a gift.
Some things are harder to let goof than others.
I'm not gonna lie.
I've had to grieve some thingsthat I didn't think I would have
to grieve.
But I will tell you, I'mgrateful that I learned it
because I want to be purehearted when I'm with them.
I really don't want to bring myunfinished business that's not
(35:47):
theirs to carry into thatrelationship.
I don't blame us as parents.
I mean, the minute we find outwe're having a child, we
immediately begin to have dreamsand visions and expectations of
what if this or what if that.
And my son's adopted, actually.
And his mother gave me a letterbefore he was born.
In the letter, she gave me herdreams for him.
(36:08):
Her dreams started and she nevergot to hold him.
It's just such an innate part ofwho we are that we need to honor
that and not beat ourselves upfor having dreams or or being
disappointed when things don'tgo the way we thought, but we
can't weigh them down with stuffthat was not theirs to ever
carry to begin with.
And grief really helps usrelease that and move forward.
(36:31):
That's the gift that I think wecan give if we're if we'll stay
aware.
That's why self-awareness isimportant, staying connected to
our emotions.
Yeah.
So we can bring the best versionof us to them with them.
SPEAKER_00 (36:43):
I want to mention to everyone, because I've enjoyed
this conversation so much.
Catherine has a great freeresource you need to check out.
It's seven keys to talking withyour adult children.
And I will put a link to it.
I know it's leaderpass.com,parenting adult children today,
forward slash preview.
I'll put a link in the episodenotes.
(37:04):
I found it wonderful.
She talks to you in many videos.
She gives you lots of tools towork with.
So it's conversations much likethis with Catherine.
Well, you don't get to talk toher.
She talks to you, but it'sgreat.
Okay, Catherine, let's have somefun with this rapid fire holiday
round.
SPEAKER_01 (37:20):
Okay.
Are you ready?
I'm ready.
Let's let's go.
SPEAKER_00 (37:23):
Okay, let's go.
Catherine, the number onemistake parents make when
they're prepping for theholidays.
SPEAKER_01 (37:29):
Their expectations that all the traditions will
continue.
SPEAKER_00 (37:33):
How do you cope if no one's coming home this year?
SPEAKER_01 (37:36):
You get a life, create your own journey of joy,
and you figure out where do youget to celebrate and do it
because you matter and you'reimportant.
SPEAKER_00 (37:46):
Tips for welcoming a new partner or significant other
to your home at the holidays.
SPEAKER_01 (37:51):
Call ahead of time, welcome them, let them know
you're excited about themcoming.
Ask them if they have somethingthat they would like for
breakfast or a special scentthat brings back really sweet
memories from their past.
Just being thoughtful andletting them know you are
looking forward to thisexperience.
That's great.
SPEAKER_00 (38:09):
What do you do when your kids slip into the
childhood mode when they visit?
Because that happens a lot.
Suddenly the rooms are messy,they're leaving their dishes
everywhere.
They become that teenager againwhen they come back home.
SPEAKER_01 (38:21):
I think you can sit down and have a conversation if
it's not just like a one-timething, but you're just noticing
a pattern and just say, hey,look, I'm getting a mixed
message from you.
On one hand, you want me to besure that I'm treating you like
an adult, but that there areother times when I see that you
kind of slip back.
So we need to quote get on thesame page because I don't want
there to be conflict.
(38:42):
So I just needed to put this onthe radar screen so that way you
we can continue on theadult-adult relationship.
SPEAKER_00 (38:49):
And it's all about that tone of voice, right?
It's all about that tone ofvoice.
It's all about that tone ofvoice.
Absolutely.
Best advice for parents whenthey are visiting their adult
children in another city or aplace for the holidays.
SPEAKER_01 (39:02):
Call ahead and say what would be the best way for
us to quote take the load off ofour visit with you.
Do we need to bring groceries?
Would it be helpful if we tookthe children out for a day?
How can we best support you?
So you're not feeling like, ohmy goodness, I got to now take
care of everybody.
SPEAKER_00 (39:20):
Yeah, that is the pressure.
Okay, the whole crew's together.
You've got 12 people in yourhouse sleeping everywhere.
Tensions rise.
What's your top strategy?
SPEAKER_01 (39:30):
Create opportunities for everybody to get out of the
house and go do their own thing.
So we're not all together 24-7.
Everybody needs some space.
Everybody needs some time as oftheir own little group, or the
gals can go do this, the guyscan go do this, or the
grandparents can take thegrandkids, or whatever mix it
is.
But everybody needs space toquote breathe and to not feel
(39:54):
the pressure of all theintensity that comes with all
the relationships being exposedto each other at the same time.
SPEAKER_00 (40:00):
And speaking of relationships, what do you do
when you have two siblings?
Let's say you've got three orfour, but two of them just do
not get along.
They seem to tolerate each otherfor the first day together, but
by the second day, it's reallyuncomfortable for everyone.
SPEAKER_01 (40:14):
Well, and I think if you know that's going to happen,
you may even want to have aconversation ahead of time and
say, look, I know that you andyour brother are at odds right
now, but I want to you to putthis in your head that what do
you need to do in order to comeand be the very best version of
you with him?
Is there anything the two of youneed to be talking about before
(40:34):
you come here?
And if it can't be, I just wantyou to know I love you.
I want you here.
Let me know how I can supportyou.
I'm not gonna take sides, butjust let me know if you need
some space and you need to walkaway, that's fine.
Do what you need to do to takecare of you.
But I am aware that y'all arenot doing well.
Uh and let me know how I cansupport you, but I'm not gonna
(40:56):
be the referee.
Right.
That's perfect.
SPEAKER_00 (40:58):
Catherine, this has been terrific.
We've been doing this for fouryears, and I've had lots of
guests, and I'm always thinking,well, maybe I'm gonna stop the
podcast because there's not manyfresh ideas.
This was so fresh and sowonderful.
So I can't thank you enough.
But before we leave, I alwaysask my guests for two takeaways
that you want our listeners toremember after they've pressed
(41:19):
stop on the podcast.
What would you say?
SPEAKER_01 (41:22):
The very first thing is for us to remember it is
never too late to be a greatparent.
As long as there's breath in ourbody, we can work and grow and
evolve and change to be thehealthiest version of ourselves.
We can't control what our adultchildren choose to do with that,
but at least we know we havegiven it everything that we
could, and that's all we can askfor.
(41:43):
Then I think the second thing isreally get self-aware on what
expectations you bring into thatrelationship with your adult
children.
We often have great intentions,our hearts are right and we want
the best, but sometimes we canreally weigh them down and they
think they could never make ushappy or will never meet our
expectations.
That's not the way we want ourchildren to remember our
(42:05):
relationship.
So get honest, get clean, getrid of them.
And if you need to, apologize.
Let them know hey, I've put thison you.
This is about me, this isn'tabout you.
I love you, period.
There's no if, and, or but,period.
I think there's something veryfreeing when we do that.
SPEAKER_00 (42:21):
Great takeaways, really terrific.
Catherine, this has been sohelpful and so real.
I loved your stories.
Thank you for sharing yourinsight, your humor, and of
course your heart.
We really appreciate it.
And I'll make sure to mentionyour website and a lot more
about you in our episode notes.
So thanks for joining.
SPEAKER_01 (42:37):
Well, thank you so much for having me in.
I wish everybody a reallywonderful holiday.
SPEAKER_00 (42:45):
Well, that's a wrap.
I think we really have a lot tothink about.
At least she gave me a lot tothink about.
That beginning when she talkedabout adult children really not
being themselves when they'rearound their parents, was very
enlightening to me.
And so many things about ourexpectations pulling them down.
I really think she's right on somany levels.
(43:06):
I hope you'll check out herwebsite, parenting
adultchildrentoday.com.
And that's where you'll be ableto get a free pre-review of the
seven keys to talking with youradult children.
And I'll also link them in ourepisode notes.
I also wish all of you apleasant, relaxing, wonderful
holiday period.
Remember, your role may havechanged, but your relationship
(43:28):
can keep growing with love,curiosity, and maybe a little
less unsolicited advice.
And that goes with saying hey,sometimes you may have to bite
your tongue.
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