October 3, 2025 • 42 mins
What if the words you use to show love are the very ones your adult child hears as judgment? That tension—care that lands as critique—drives so many family conflicts, and Deborah Tannen gives us the language map to change it.
We sit down with the Georgetown linguist and bestselling author to explore conversational style, meta-messages, and the subtle ways timing, tone, and turn‑taking shape intimacy at home.
Tannen shares vivid stories—from “Do you like your hair that long?” to car‑ride silences—that reveal how message and meta‑message diverge, why “helpful” advice stings, and how indirect questions can be invitations to co‑decide rather than games to decode. We trace the fault lines of gendered talk, where solutions collide with “troubles talk,” and show practical scripts to ask consent before giving feedback, translate intent across styles, and keep curiosity alive without sounding intrusive.
We also dig into complementary schismogenesis—the spiral where differences push each other to extremes—and how to stop the chase/withdraw dance by adjusting cadence and expectations. Birth order roles resurface in adulthood, turning firstborn competence into control and younger resistance into reflex; naming those roles loosens their grip. Tannen’s take on apologies is both moving and actionable: why impact matters more than defense, how a simple acknowledgment can heal years of hurt, and why late‑life apologies carry disproportionate power. Along the way we address the “big three” hot zones—hair, clothes, weight—plus social media’s sting of exclusion, and we offer boundary phrases that preserve both bond and autonomy.
If you’ve ever thought, “I was just caring,” while someone heard, “You’re not enough,” this conversation offers clear tools to bridge the gap. Listen, share with your family, and try one shift this week: ask before advising, label your intent, or offer a four‑part apology.
This conversation is filled with insights that can help you strengthen your most important relationships. You may also enjoy this Youtube video of a talk Dr. Tannen gave in Amsterdam highlighting the conversational differences between men and women. We found it fascinating.
🎧 Listen now and join us in exploring the power of language, connection, and understanding.
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Thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:03):
Caring and criticizing are created by the
same words.
No matter how convinced you arethat you are caring, this is
parent, if you're giving adviceor suggestion, it's criticism on
some level.
And from the point of view ofthe adult child, yeah, you're
feeling criticized, but it'scaring when they say no one's
gonna tell you because theydon't love you as much as I do,
(00:24):
there's a level of truth ofthat.
SPEAKER_00 (00:29):
Hey everyone, welcome to Bite Your Tongue the
podcast.
Join me, your host, DeniseCorinth, as we explore the ins
and outs of building healthyrelationships with our adult
children.
Together, we'll speak withexperts, share heartfelt
stories, and get timely advice,addressing topics that matter
most to you.
Get ready to dive deep and learnto build and nurture deep
(00:52):
connections with our adultchildren.
And of course, when to bite ourtongues.
So let's get started.
Hello, everyone, and welcomeback to Bite Your Tongue.
Today's gonna be one greatepisode.
I'm so excited.
We're welcoming Dr.
Deborah Tannin.
She's a distinguished professorof linguistics at Georgetown
(01:14):
University and one of theworld's leading experts on how
everyday talk shapes our closestrelationships.
We are so fortunate to have herwith us today.
Her groundbreaking bestseller,You Just Don't Understand,
changed the way the world thinksabout communication between men
and women.
Since then, she's written aseries of books that dive into
(01:37):
family talk, including I onlysay that because I love you,
which features the muchdiscussed chapter, I'm still
your mother, and you're wearingthat.
I think all of us can relate tothose titles because they're
phrases we've heard or even usedourselves at one time or
another.
But really, what makes Dr.
Tannin's work so special is shedoesn't just analyze
(02:00):
conversations.
She shows us how even thesimplest remarks, remarks we
make every day, carry years ofhistory, emotion, and meaning.
And most importantly, she offerstools to help us move past
conflict and into deeperconnection.
So let's dive in.
Welcome, Dr.
Tan.
And we are so glad you're withus today.
(02:22):
And I want to say that Iespecially loved your books and
talks, how you gave personalstories and concrete examples.
I'm hoping you're going to sharesome of those today.
SPEAKER_01 (02:31):
I definitely think in terms of examples.
SPEAKER_00 (02:34):
And I think it helps our listeners.
Your career began inlinguistics, yet you've become
one of the most recognizedvoices on how language impacts
our personal relationships.
How did you move towards thiswhole area of family talk?
SPEAKER_01 (02:47):
And what you would call a sociolinguist.
So from the very start, yes,it's the field of linguistics,
but it was how people uselanguage in their everyday
lives.
And it's kind of hard toseparate language from
relationships and you know whatwe're trying to do with it.
Let me start with how I got intothe whole field, which is
actually building.
Okay.
Okay, go ahead.
(03:08):
For my dissertation, I wasinterested in the issue of, and
I'll talk about this all thetime, what I call conversational
style.
The idea that we're justtalking, but we have to make
some decision about how loudlyor softly, how close or far
we're going to stand, how director indirect we're going to be,
(03:28):
on and on and on, all thesedecisions.
And we think we're just talking.
But depending on the culture,uh, which could be part of the
country that you grew up in, theethnic background, personality,
we have different conversationalstyles.
If you talk to someone whosestyle is similar, chances are
they what you what you mean andwhat they hear is going to be
(03:49):
relatively similar.
And if their styles aredifferent, then chances are they
won't.
They may misunderstand what youintend and they will get
impressions of you as a person.
Okay, so I was going to write adissertation and I record I was
recording all my conversationsat the time, but I settled on
one that was a dinner tableconversation, happened to be
(04:10):
Thanksgiving, six of us allsingle.
Uh it was me, my best friend,his brother, his former wife,
another friend of his, and afriend of that friend.
So I was gonna look at eachindividual's conversational
style and see how it affectedthe conversation.
Just by chance, I and my friendand his brother are from New
(04:32):
York City, raised in New YorkCity, and New York Jewish
background, although it's EastEuropean Jewish background.
I have written an article aboutit calling it New York Jewish
conversational style.
It's East European.
I mean, it's kind of New Yorkand it's Eastern European.
And then the other two were fromCalifornia, and then one was
from British.
(04:53):
Well, it turned out I couldn'tsay anything about the
conversational styles other thanthe three New Yorkers.
The others had a hard timegetting the floor.
Now, it wasn't that they nevertalked, you know, if they they
might get the floor at somepoint and tell a very long
story, but they couldn't be partof the give and take.
So I ended up writing aboutthat.
It's kind of emblematic of theuh point about conversational
(05:16):
style that I developed in all mybooks afterwards.
Just take the issue of gettingthe floor.
We all know conversation is amatter of you take a turn, I
take a turn.
How do you know when the otherperson's turn is done and your
turn is uh is up?
Or how do you know whetherthey're stopping because they're
giving up, you know, they'repanning over the floor, or
(05:38):
they're just catching theirbreath.
This is something that I often Ido illustrate with my two
fingers up.
I think you can imagine what I'msaying without seeing the two
fingers up.
If one person is expecting aslightly shorter pause than the
other, the shorter pause comesfirst.
And so you get the impressionthe other person's done or
(05:58):
they're not saying anything.
You don't want there to be anuncomfortable silence, so you
fill it and you do it again andyou do it again.
And actually, with uh the stylethat I ended up calling high
involvement, and I can explainthat too later, you might not
actually wait for silence.
People kind of run down.
SPEAKER_00 (06:17):
I'm an interrupter.
SPEAKER_01 (06:19):
Well, this is one of my major, major points.
So I'm glad you gave me theopportunity to say that right up
front.
The impression is interruption,but it's not the intention.
In co-stylistic speech, in otherwords, among ourselves, nobody
felt they had to stop justbecause someone else started.
You trust the other person.
If they're not done, they keeptalking and you back off and you
(06:43):
find another time.
The most extreme example was oneof the uh it was actually my
friend's brother.
He was trying to get the floorto say something, it wouldn't
work, he'd back off, he'd tryagain, he backed off seven
times, and he got the floor andhe was happy, and we were happy.
He wanted to say it and he saidit.
The Californians, if they triedonce and it wasn't picked up,
(07:05):
they didn't try again.
So it's an economy.
You're trusting the other personto find their way in versus you
trust other people to let youin.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (07:17):
Let's start with the book You Don't Understand,
because the one chapter aboutmothers and daughters really
stood out.
So take us from there to thenyour two books on the
relationship and family.
SPEAKER_01 (07:28):
Okay.
Yeah, sure.
So in the book You Just Don'tUnderstand, which is about women
and men, right, which wasactually my 10th book.
Okay.
Second for general readers.
SPEAKER_00 (07:40):
Well, Matt also became a New York Times
bestseller.
That was the huge one.
That was when your sister saidyou deserve a little bit of
attention or your 15 minutes offame, right?
That's sisters for you, yeah.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (07:53):
Yeah.
So I had written a book calledThat's Not What I Meant, which
was laying out for generalreaders all this idea about
conversational style that Imentioned.
Uh it had one chapter on gender,and that's the one everybody
wanted to talk about.
Right.
So that was then my next book.
I was not a specialist ingender, I was a specialist in
this idea of conversationalstyle.
(08:15):
But I approached the women andmen as cross-cultural
communication because it shareda lot with that framework.
SPEAKER_00 (08:23):
I want to tell my listeners that this book is so
much better than Venus and Mars,whatever that book was called.
So if you think you've read itall, pick up her book.
You just don't understand.
Now go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (08:35):
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you for saying that.
That one did come out after I'dbeen on the bestsellers for a
couple of years.
So take an example.
A couple of riding in the car.
And this was actually asked wasit was the guy who asked me
this.
He said he's riding in the carwith his wife, uh, coming back
from something the night before.
And she asked him, Are youthirsty, dear?
Would you like to stop for adrink?
(08:56):
And he wasn't.
So he said no.
And then later he discoveredthat she was kind of annoyed
because she had wanted to stop.
And he said, Why does she playgames with me?
Why doesn't she just tell methat she wanted to stop for a
drink?
And I said, I'm pretty sure shedidn't expect a yes-no answer.
She probably expected somethinglike, I don't know, how do you
(09:17):
feel about it?
And then she could say, I don'tknow, how do you feel about it?
And they make a decision takingother people's preferences into
account.
And that's the key.
You don't make a demand, youfind out how where other people
are.
So she was opening a space,opening a conversation by which
she would get to say what shewanted, he would get to say what
(09:37):
he wanted.
And they might have gone or notgone, but they showed
consideration for the other.
His answer, no, to her, meant, Idon't care what you want, only
what I want matters.
But that's a different economy.
Again, in his style, if shewants to, she would say it.
And if he didn't agree, he wouldsay, I don't really want to.
(10:00):
Is that all right?
Or if he wanted to, he'd say,Okay.
So people again trust the wordlinguists call the style that
I've described as the wifeasking indirectness.
She was communicating, but notputting everything in words.
By the way, we're all indirect,and I can give examples many,
(10:22):
many more examples of that.
So that would be an example, andit turned out to be very, very
common between women and men.
Uh somebody came up to me aftertalking.
He said, You know, I with mywife and I were reading the book
in the car, and she was readingit to me, and she read that
thing, and I said, you know, wewouldn't do that.
And then she said, Do you wantto listen to music?
(10:44):
And he said, Nope.
So another just uh quickexample.
It's often pointed out that awoman will talk about a problem,
and the guy suggests a solution,and she's frustrated.
She wanted to talk about it.
There, too, I would say it's notso much whether you want a
solution or not.
You're opening up a certain kindof conversation.
(11:05):
So you say a describe a problemto a woman friend.
She might say, Oh, really?
You know, why do you think hesaid that?
And then what did you say?
And then, well, what do youthink you might do?
And what do you think he mightdo if you do that?
You do end up getting to asolution, but you have a
conversation about it.
And that shows your interest, itshows that you care.
SPEAKER_00 (11:26):
I I could talk for an hour about husbands and
wives, but that's a whole notherconversation.
So I want to get into what mylisteners want.
Maybe someday, if you're open,we'd do another one on men and
women.
I would love to, because it's sogreat.
But in one of your talks, youshared that you spoke with many
mothers and daughters.
And when you spoke with onesthat said, we don't have any
conflict, I think the mothersaid, I bite my tongue, and the
(11:49):
daughter said, My mother justisn't judgmental.
So, since the podcast is calledBite Your Tongue, you can
imagine it struck a chord withme.
But here's the question that Iraise how do you be authentic
with your adult children?
Did you talk about the whatshows caring, what shows
criticism?
What are techniques to beauthentic, but not feel like
(12:09):
you're criticizing, not bitingyour tongue all the time?
SPEAKER_01 (12:12):
Right.
And I and I will start with thatwas kind of uh that was the
exception.
SPEAKER_00 (12:17):
Right.
Yeah, yeah.
That's what you said.
Very much an exception.
SPEAKER_01 (12:21):
The most common complaint I heard from adult
children about their mothers,she's critical.
Right.
The most common complaint Iheard from mothers of adult
daughters, I can't open mymouth.
She takes everything ascriticism.
And maybe this is a bit oflinguistics.
We are inclined to think wordscan only mean one thing.
So I know you've been critical.
(12:42):
So you say you're not, you'rebeing disingenuous.
I know I'm just wanted to helpyou.
You're telling me I'mcriticizing.
Why are you so sensitive?
What's the matter with you?
They're both the true.
They're both true.
And you have to hold in yourmind if you offer advice or
suggestion for improvement,there is implied criticism.
(13:02):
Doing something wrong, youwouldn't need the advice.
I I like to tell this examplewas my mother.
Okay.
I was visiting, they wereretired, they were older
visiting, and my mother said, Doyou like your hair that long?
And I laughed.
And she said, Why?
And I said, Well, it was when Iwas writing the book.
And I said, And so many womenare telling me that their
mothers are critical of theirhair.
(13:23):
I talked about three thingshair, clothes, and weight.
My mother said, I wasn'tcriticizing.
And then later in the visit, Isaid, Mom, what do you think of
my hair?
She said, I think it's a littletoo long.
You know, there's an assumption.
Part of it is many of ourconversations have a history.
Yeah.
So you know what your mother isinclined to not totally approve
(13:43):
of or be concerned about.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (13:46):
So are are you saying that as a mother of adult
children, we really should neversay anything?
Because if your friend said toyou, Do you like your hair?
your friend actually couldprobably say directly, Deborah,
I really like your hair shorter.
And you would say, Do you?
You know, tell me more.
SPEAKER_01 (14:03):
I might ask, by the way.
Oh, I got my haircut.
What do you think?
SPEAKER_00 (14:05):
Exactly.
But your mother can't say that.
SPEAKER_01 (14:07):
Every one of us has to be an observer of our own
interactions.
If I say you should you shoulddo something a certain way, it's
going to be perfect for oneperson and terrible for someone
else.
This concept that we each havedifferent conversational styles
is really the bedrock.
You have to start from that.
You need antenna rolled out tosee what is the kind of thing
(14:29):
that gets a bad response andback off on those things.
That kind of is summarizes whatI was describing before.
Okay.
You think you're showing caring,and it's going to be taken as
criticism.
A woman told me this, a woman inher 60s.
She said, My mother's losing hereyesight, but she can still spot
a pimple across the room.
(14:51):
Now, the mother is probably notthinking, I'm going to
criticize.
It's, I want to recommend thiscream that I read about, or I
bought you this cream.
And who else thinks that thatpimple is the main thing on your
face?
You.
That's exactly right.
So yeah, it's caring, but italso is criticizing.
(15:14):
So realizing that the same wordsare doing both, the starting
point.
SPEAKER_00 (15:19):
You know, another story you said that I just
loved.
And I just reminded me, I thinkyour parents were in their 90s,
your mother was very sick, youknow, but your mother said
something.
SPEAKER_01 (15:28):
I think the one you this might be this wasn't me if
if this was it.
Somebody told me that her motherwas in the hospital.
She was so concerned that shegot a call, you know, she jumped
on an airplane, comes into thehospital room, bends down to
kiss her mother, and her mothersays, When's the last time you
did your roots?
Oh, and she loved it.
(15:49):
She loved it because it meant mymother's okay.
Well, so, and I think this isquite true.
You said, but it's reallycaring.
Yes, but it's also reallycriticism.
We have to keep in our mindsthat that it's both.
And this idea that to beauthentic is to say it.
You know, there's lots of thingswe don't say.
It's nothing inauthentic aboutnot saying lots of things that
(16:12):
we think.
The the term we use metacommunication.
SPEAKER_00 (16:15):
Yeah, let's talk about these meta messages.
SPEAKER_01 (16:17):
Absolutely.
Have a conversation.
This is what I think is goingon.
I think I'm showing caring.
I'm just now I realize that I'mactually criticizing.
Right.
But the other side too.
I love this one.
A woman told me, thank you somuch.
You know, this was having readmy book, thank you so much for
that book.
(16:38):
She said, I visited my mother,and for the first time we didn't
argue.
And I said, That's so wonderful.
You know, can you explain whatwas different?
She said, Well, here's anexample.
Uh, while I was visiting her, Iwent shopping and I bought two
pairs of socks, one black, onenavy.
The next day I was wearing oneof the pairs of socks, and my
(16:58):
mother said, Are you sure you'renot wearing one of each color?
And she said, In the past, Iwould have blown up.
Mom, I have a master's degree,and you don't think I can match
my socks.
But she stopped for a second andshe thought, Who else is gonna
care about the color of mysocks?
So much of that is so true.
And that was the connection Iwas gonna make way, way back.
(17:21):
That to ask questions about youknow how what's going on and
what did you eat for dinner, andwho did you meet, and how did
you like it?
And it shows all of that showscaring.
And there's um, think of a womanwho said uh about her mother,
who else can I tell?
I got a good deal on toiletpaper, right?
Caring about the details of yourlife.
(17:42):
And that is more, tends to bemore women than men.
I mean, that's the kind of thingthat I'm one of three sisters,
and my father would.
What do all you girls find totalk about?
SPEAKER_00 (17:53):
Why do you think sons don't have this situation
as much with their parents ortheir mother?
SPEAKER_01 (17:59):
Well, one thing is I said hair closing weight.
Right, right, right.
It's appearance and women'sappearance is much more
scrutinized in our culture.
And we have a lot more optionsthat we have to choose from.
Styles change.
I often do this when I'm uhgiving talks.
Look around the room, I'll say,and the largest group I ever did
(18:20):
this with was 2000 in theKennedy Center concert hall.
Okay.
Look around.
Do you see any two women withthe same hairstyle?
No, no, there's bangs, no bangs,short, colored, what color?
You could endless, endless,endless.
And yeah, there could be a guywith something unusual, you
know, a ponytail or uh spiky uhstuff sticking up.
(18:44):
But the most men make the choiceof just this is a term we use in
linguistics, it's unmarked.
It doesn't get any attention,just neutral.
We don't have a neutral.
So that's two reasons rightthere.
More attention on ourappearance, and we have to
choose from such a range ofstyles that any choice we make,
somebody's gonna think we didn'tmake the right choice.
SPEAKER_00 (19:06):
I think that's true.
I think must have to dosomething with personality too,
because I know my son, I couldsay, Why are you wearing pants
like that?
And he would have no reaction toit.
I don't know, these are in stylenow, or you know, I'm trying to
get them a little shorter, blah,blah, blah.
He for some reason doesn't takeit as a criticism, he takes it
as caring.
SPEAKER_01 (19:26):
Well, how much attention has he had to pay to
his clothes?
None.
And how much is he going to bejudged as a person based on his
choice?
Interesting.
I'm gonna make one more, onemore point about what's
different.
So much of what women dotogether is talk, a place of
(19:46):
talk in a relationship, andnothing is true of all women and
men.
I have to say that as many timesas you know, we can say it.
But the tendency is for girlsand women to spend more time
sitting and talking.
And we do troubles talk, youknow, talking about things that
are bothering us, talk aboutpersonal things.
It's more sensitive.
And we're talking more, so wehave more opportunity to say the
(20:07):
wrong thing.
For most boys and men, they canbe very good friends, but they
won't talk as much.
It's doing things together, it'sbeing together.
He plays tennis with the guy andshe gets together with the wife.
And this, I can't tell you howmany people this similar thing
has happened to.
And she says, gee, you know,isn't that terrible that they're
getting divorced?
(20:28):
And he says, They are.
I didn't know that.
Oh, this is so true.
This is so true.
And he mentioned, no, you know,we're not talking about our
marriage, we're playing tennis.
I talk about that a lot with myfriends.
This is the explanation, andpeople trace this to kids, how
we've used language growing up,that the little girl's gonna be
sitting and talking andwhispering in each other's ear.
SPEAKER_00 (20:48):
The boys are gonna be hitting each other and
criticizing each other, and noone cares.
All right, we need to talk aboutthe meta messages, and then I
also want you to talk about thisconcept, and I'm not gonna say
it right complementaryshimogenesis.
How do you say schismogenesis?
I should know that by speakingGreek, right?
Schismogenesis, right?
Okay, so let's do the metamessages and then the
(21:11):
complementary schismogenesis,yes.
SPEAKER_01 (21:16):
Everything we say has these two levels.
Message is the meaning of thewords, meta message is what does
it mean that we're saying thesewords in this way at this time
in this relationship.
Very often we end up arguingabout the words, but it's the
meta message, it's what we thinkthe person is implying, what we
think it says about what theyhow they feel about us.
(21:37):
So, perfect example, my motherasking, Do you like your hair
that long?
That's the message.
She's asking me if I like myhair that long.
The meta message is your hair istoo long.
And I know it because the factthat she's asking a history that
I I know she tended to think myhair was too long.
And often that's the kind ofthing that we are responding to.
SPEAKER_00 (21:59):
Can you give a couple more examples of that?
Yeah, let me just give you someyeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:04):
So two people are riding in a car and they're not
talking.
What's the meta message of thatsilence?
Is it you're mad at me andthat's why you're not talking?
Is it you're so comfortable withme that you don't feel you have
to talk?
Is there something that I shouldbe asking you and you're angry
that I'm not asking you?
So even no words can have theseall these different messages.
(22:27):
So true.
SPEAKER_00 (22:28):
Okay, let's go to complimentary complimentary
schizmo genesis.
SPEAKER_01 (22:32):
You say it.
Okay.
This traces to ananthropologist, Gregory Bateson.
He was married to Margaret Mead,and I like to say because how
often do you have to say who aman is by telling you who his
wife was?
SPEAKER_00 (22:45):
It's worth my It's definitely worth doing.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (22:49):
So a schism is a split.
Genesis is creation.
Complementary schismogenesis iscreation of a split in a
complementary way.
In other words, they go inopposite directions.
So we have different styles.
And you think, well, I'll justadjust a little bit and then
you'll just adjust a little bitand won't things get better.
(23:09):
Complimentary schismogenesis iswhat you do, whatever your style
is, drives the person to moreextreme versions of the other
behavior.
So here's an example.
Okay.
This is actually a real one.
Uh so a guy was uh, this was awork situation.
He was asking a particular womanif she wanted to have lunch with
him, and she didn't.
So she said, No, I'm kind ofbusy this week.
(23:32):
And then later he asks, No, I'dreally like to have lunch with
you.
And she said, You know, I'mreally not feeling very well.
And she gets more indirect.
And finally he says, Would youplease tell me, is it that you
don't want to have lunch withme?
I should stop asking, or is itreally the case that you're so
he's trying to get more directto get her to tell him what she
(23:56):
really thinks?
That makes her practicallyaphasic, because there's no way
she is going to look this man inthe face and say, I don't want
to have lunch with you.
So she starts double talking tothe person.
So each one was driven to moreextreme versions of the opposing
behavior.
SPEAKER_00 (24:11):
Can can that happen in family relationships, do you
think?
Or how does it happen in familyrelationships?
SPEAKER_01 (24:16):
Um, time of style is different.
It can happen.
You know, the book I justfinished, I sent the first draft
off to my publisher.
SPEAKER_00 (24:22):
Oh, the one you were working on when we were going to
do the interview and you neededto finish.
Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:27):
Apologies.
Oh, I want to get intoapologies.
Okay.
So you want an apology fromsomebody and they're not giving
it.
So you apologize to give them agood example.
And they say, Yeah, you reallyshouldn't do that again.
That's really bad.
So you've made it worse ratherthan making it made it better.
I apologize, you'll get a goodidea.
(24:48):
This is actually again true.
Someone's had lunch with a guy,and he was just the whole time
talking about himself.
By the end, she said, Why areyou telling me all this?
And he said, I want to get toknow you.
So it sounds, but his idea ofhow to get to know you is I talk
about myself and you talk aboutyou, but you're not doing your
part.
So I tell more.
And then you're talking so muchthat I really clam up and talk
(25:11):
more.
So what each one is doing isdriving the other to a more
extreme.
That makes perfect sense.
Let me give you this example ofa student who compared her
mother and her father and twodifferent ones.
My students observe their ownbehavior, and you know, so this
is the one who really preferredher mother.
She was sick.
Normally she would talk to hermother, but this time her mother
wasn't home.
(25:31):
She talked to her father.
Oh, Daddy, I feel terrible.
You know, I have a sore throat.
And uh and he said, Well, takeTylenol.
She said, Well, I did, but itreally didn't help.
Uh well, go to the healthcenter.
There, everybody's sick, and Icouldn't get an appointment.
And he says, Well, can't helpyou then.
This is real.
And she wished her mother whowould have said, Oh, I'm so
(25:52):
sorry.
I wish I was there to make you acup of tea.
You know, another one prefersthe mother.
Okay, so she w breaks up withher boyfriend.
She feels really bad about it,and she tells both her parents
and gets their advice.
Her father never brings it upagain.
Every time she talks to hermother, How are you doing?
How's he doing?
Have you heard from him?
Have you met anybody?
Has he met anybody?
(26:14):
Finally, she asks, Yeah, mom,please stop bringing it up.
Uh, it it makes it harder.
So then her mother feels bad.
Then she feels bad that she madeher mother feel bad.
So this is also true.
This paradox that everyconversation we have to ask
ourselves, are you showinginterest or are you intrusive?
SPEAKER_00 (26:34):
Are you showing interest or are you intrusive?
So it's really our job toexamine that or talk openly
about it to our adult child.
Like, do I sound intrusive whenI say this?
If I do, let me know.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (26:47):
Or or even when you're not saying it.
Right.
Let's here's this issue, and Idon't know which direction I go
in, but now it's not happeningright now.
So if you tell me yourexperience with me, do I not ask
enough?
SPEAKER_00 (27:02):
Yeah.
So you also talk about balancingcloseness and independence.
And mothers and daughtersparticularly wrestle with
wanting intimacy butindependence, particularly the
daughters, I think, want theindependence.
The mothers want the intimacy.
And the daughters deserve theindependence.
As you said, I'm 55 years olderand my mother still doesn't
think I can match my socks.
How do they reach that balance?
(27:23):
Are do you have any suggestions?
SPEAKER_01 (27:25):
Well, I think talking about it is definitely
important.
Stepping back and trying to seeit from the other's point of
view.
Maybe that's the most importantthing you can do.
Uh, we want to think we're agood person.
SPEAKER_00 (27:37):
Well, 99% of the time, I really think you are,
and you mean well.
I really do.
And I do too.
SPEAKER_01 (27:44):
I often say mine is a rhetoric of good intentions.
I love that a rhetoric of goodintentions.
I'm gonna save that.
SPEAKER_00 (27:52):
I'm a rhetoric of good intentions that don't
always work.
SPEAKER_01 (27:54):
And sometimes people are frustrated, you know,
sometimes people have badintentions.
SPEAKER_00 (27:58):
All right, so you talk about this big three hair,
clothes, and weight.
And I'm gonna say your book waswritten long enough ago that I
think some of that has yes, butno.
I think mothers are a littlemore accepting the way their
daughters are looking.
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong,but other things come up,
whether it be their lifestyle ortheir values.
Um, people are taking so manydifferent paths.
(28:19):
You know, that's movement.
That's how they raise theirchildren is becoming really
important.
SPEAKER_01 (28:24):
Whatever it is, it's gonna be different from what it
what it was.
SPEAKER_00 (28:27):
What the hair, the weight, the clothes, the raising
children, the living conditions,the career choices.
Do you think social media hasintensified this and made
mothers, probably becausethey're more engaged in social
media than the fathers, like,oh, my child will never be like
Sally on, you know, whatever.
Do you think there's some harmin social media with these
(28:48):
relationships?
SPEAKER_01 (28:48):
Well, social media brings both harm and good on
every level.
Everything good is part harm.
Um, when I talk to mothers,daughters, as well as sisters,
women's relationships ingeneral, friends, when they are
hurt, when mothers were hurt,more often than not, it was not
being included in something andnot being invited to something.
And that is an extremely commonway of being hurt for women.
(29:12):
There's reality behind it.
When girls get mad at a girl,they lock her out.
Boys don't do that.
They might treat him badly, butthey don't lock him out.
And of course, in junior high,it gets quite really, really,
really hard.
Social media aggravates thatbecause you see what everybody's
doing and you're not there.
You see all the things that weregoing on that you weren't
(29:34):
invited to.
So I think that makes it worse.
That makes it worse.
SPEAKER_00 (29:38):
How about you describe family conversations as
a dance between connection andcontrol?
What does that mean exactly?
I don't think I say dance.
Okay, maybe I added the word indance.
Sorry.
All right, between connectionand control.
Um, I like the way it sounded.
SPEAKER_01 (29:56):
How about that?
Yeah, the connection andcontrol.
Is is like the criticism andcaring.
You know, okay.
All the C's.
Want to be connected to eachother.
It's like the independence.
We want to be connected, but wealso want to be free and
independent.
Woman said about her daughter.
You know, I understand she'sgetting older and she wants to
(30:18):
break the bonds.
And that's the bonds of bondage.
But say that again.
SPEAKER_00 (30:24):
She wants to break the bond.
Oh, bondage.
Right.
Okay.
That's no control.
SPEAKER_01 (30:28):
That it doesn't become bondage.
Bondage.
SPEAKER_00 (30:32):
Boy, there's a happy that is a dance, and there's a
very thin wire you're walking onbetween bond and bondage.
SPEAKER_01 (30:39):
Yeah.
And again, what seems like themost perfect connection to one
person is going to seem wayoverconnected to another and
rejection to another.
There's a lot of culturaldifference here.
There's cultures where women andmen, by the way, they'll be
holding hands all the time andhugging one.
SPEAKER_00 (30:58):
I've seen that.
And other cultures where theynever touch their kid at all.
I really want to talk aboutfamily roles because I loved
what you talked about with yoursisters and this thing we carry
on from childhood, eldest,peacemaker, rebel, and how it
complicates communication as wecome adults' roles.
SPEAKER_01 (31:15):
The oldest sister is the toughest role.
It really is.
It really is.
SPEAKER_00 (31:20):
I'm the youngest of three.
And the middle is the best role,I'm going to tell you.
There are so many differentmiddles.
Well, I'm talking about three, Iguess.
They for sort of forget aboutyou and you can do your own
thing.
SPEAKER_01 (31:30):
Yeah.
Well, there's six years betweenmy oldest and the next.
Oh, okay.
Like that's a oldest sister.
You do.
Yeah.
They're both oldest.
Right.
Right.
Okay.
So go ahead.
But oldest sisters are put inthe often, not always often, put
in the position of watching outfor the young ones, taking care
of them.
You know, you watch them.
My my mother definitely did thatwith my oldest sister.
(31:52):
She calls herself a parentifiedchild.
She was put in that position,you know.
I can't handle them.
You take them.
And she was great with us.
Especially you.
You were the rebel.
Yeah, well, as a teenager, Idrove my mother nearly into the
grave.
SPEAKER_00 (32:09):
I think you drove her into the grave as a young
adult.
Sorry.
Based on what I heard.
That's all I can say.
SPEAKER_01 (32:16):
No, it was the and well, this is an interesting
thing too.
I'm a child of the 60s.
My sister's a child of the 50s.
SPEAKER_00 (32:23):
Oh, that's a big change.
Big difference.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (32:26):
We're born into the same family, but it's a
different family when each of usis born.
Economic situation is different.
They're going through in theirlives is different.
And how does that translate intoadulthood?
Well, I want to say one thingabout the old okay, sorry.
And this is a quote from LouisaMay Alcara, I'm told.
Another great woman.
Yeah.
The first child is pure poetry.
(32:47):
All the rest are prose.
Oh my gosh.
The kind of attention that thefirst gets that is really
irreplaceable.
SPEAKER_00 (32:56):
It's overwhelming.
SPEAKER_01 (32:57):
All the pictures of the first one are too busy for
the others.
But the downside is neverresented.
You know, you're not my mother.
You take them for granted.
I've, you know, anecdotes I'veheard.
You just assume the oldest oneis going to do all the planning,
and you just assume the oldestone is going to pick mom up and
take her to church, even thoughshe lives 45 minutes away and I
live live 10 minutes away.
(33:18):
It wasn't me, that was told meby someone else.
Right, right.
SPEAKER_00 (33:21):
Do you think sometimes the oldest child
thinks that they'll just do abetter job?
Absolutely.
Like sometimes I think, yeah,sometimes I think it's my
problem of thinking, let me takecare of it because I'm better at
it.
SPEAKER_01 (33:32):
And and a feeling that it's your job.
I mean, you don't even thinkabout it.
Something has to be done.
I should do it.
I describe a lot about findingmyself with my two sisters, and
I become helpless.
SPEAKER_00 (33:45):
So let's talk about the power of apology, the focus,
the impact, the intent.
SPEAKER_01 (33:50):
Well, yeah, that there's a lot of different ways
to consider apologies.
Many apologies don't have wordsat all.
Let me start with thefrustration that often women
feel that apologies are veryimportant and are more likely to
apologize than men.
Again, not everybody across theboard, but tendency.
(34:11):
Level on which if you apologize,you're kind of putting yourself
in a position of weakness.
And there's a level on which ifyou apologize, you're
acknowledging that you careabout the other person.
And the tendency is for women tofocus on that caring side.
If he won't apologize, hedoesn't care that he let me
down.
Tendency among men is okay, Icommitted a misdemeanor, but you
(34:32):
want me to plead guilty to afelony?
What is the big deal?
Of course, I didn't do it onpurpose.
I love you.
I wouldn't do that on purpose.
So why are you insisting Iapologize?
So those two things uh arealways there.
And like all the conversationalstyle differences I talk about,
you can focus on one or theother.
And if one is focused, focusingon one, the other on the other.
SPEAKER_00 (34:54):
Can you relate that to parent and adult child?
Is the parent the first toapologize typically if there was
a riff?
SPEAKER_01 (35:01):
Let me tell you, uh, one of the things that totally
surprised me, totally surprisedme in writing this book.
How many people, when I said,You have any stories about
apologies, told me about theirparents.
Interesting.
That the parents apologized ordon't.
Well, it could be my parentapologized and it meant so much
to me.
(35:21):
Especially those were often endof life.
Oh, interesting.
Um, you know, my mother did allthese, and you don't want to
hear all the things that, butreal, you know, real things that
hurt the kid acronym.
I wasn't really focusing on it,but before she died, my mother
said I shouldn't have done that,and I I'm sorry.
And it was huge, huge that shecared.
(35:44):
She cared that it had thateffect on me.
And some of them were wishing aparent would apologize and the
parent won't.
Often those were about bringinga stepfather into the family.
SPEAKER_00 (35:58):
And then I and it's really sad that it's the end of
life because really, if we couldall pick ourselves up and
realize there are no perfectparents, and uh every kid's
going to be in therapy, howeverhard we tried, and apologize for
what it was that we were notable to provide, it might make a
huge difference.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (36:15):
And it's quite astonishing how much it can
mean.
I was just astonished.
People that I talked tosometimes cried, but those who
cried with almost one, only oneexception, they cried when they
told me that the parentapologized.
It was that moment rather thanall these terrible things that
they suffered.
(36:35):
That they didn't cry about that.
So I think it's because it's somoving.
But I think it's again, I thinkit's about caring.
You want to know that the parentcares.
SPEAKER_00 (36:46):
And you think as a parent, your kids should know
they care.
You care.
And and God you care.
SPEAKER_01 (36:52):
That's the other side of it.
From parents, I talked aboutagain, thinking of that book I
wrote about mothers anddaughters.
So many women told me the worstthing, worst thing would be to
think they weren't a goodmother.
The one woman who had a careeras a journalist, you know, she
said, people could criticize myjournalism.
That's just why, but if somebodyimplied I wasn't a good mother,
(37:14):
I'd fall apart.
So in a way, apologizing isadmitting that you weren't a
good mother in that way.
And one woman told me how much Imeant to her when her mother
apologized, and what she saidwas, and she was assuring her
mother that she was a goodmother.
And I think that's what made itpossible for her mother to say,
(37:35):
yeah, I did that bad thing, butI still was a good mother.
SPEAKER_00 (37:40):
And I find, and I don't know whether this is true,
but in day-to-day relationships,particularly with my spouse, if
he gets angry with me aboutsomething or points something
out, I loved your thing aboutpulling the recycle out of the
garbage.
I mean, I want to tell you howmany times it's recyclable.
If you just say I'm sorry,everything goes away.
SPEAKER_01 (37:58):
Yep.
We're we're the reverse.
My husband and I are thereverse.
Oh, really?
Many of the things I talk about,he isn't your typical guy.
But this one is he does not liketo say he's sorry.
And I'll tell you two funny onesbecause you know he's heard me
talk about this, and he knowsright into saying, I'm sorry for
everything.
SPEAKER_00 (38:17):
And and you said, and I identified with this too.
My husband does this, somethingfunny, it makes you laugh and it
goes away.
SPEAKER_01 (38:23):
And another one that this probably more recently, I
said, Well, why don't you justsay you're sorry?
He said, You know, I can't saysorry the same day.
And it's true.
He can say it the next day.
SPEAKER_00 (38:34):
Yeah, it's you know, it I don't know.
I just know I want to cut itoff.
So I figure if I say I'm sorry,it's done.
I don't even have to mean it.
SPEAKER_01 (38:42):
Well, that's absolutely you mean that you
want it to be over.
SPEAKER_00 (38:46):
You I mean that I want it to be over, right?
SPEAKER_01 (38:49):
Exactly.
Exactly.
This is very revealing.
I was actually visiting mysister and her husband, and he
came home late and he wassupposed to help, but he said,
Well, I was there, so he didn'tneed to help.
And they they were going backand forth.
And he at one point said, Well,I just don't know what to say.
And I sort of mouthed,apologize, he didn't pick it up.
(39:10):
So I whispered, apologize, hedidn't pick it up.
So I went over and I belted,apologize.
And my sister said, Yeah, ifyou'd apologize, I'd forget it.
But what he said was that neveroccurred to me.
To me, that was so revealing.
It's not like he was resistingit, it just wasn't on his radar
(39:31):
screen.
And I think part of that is it'snot going to change anything.
Words mean more often, notalways, often to women than to
men.
Actions, men focus more on.
Your friend is the one you doeverything with, your best
friend is the one you telleverything to.
SPEAKER_00 (39:49):
Well, I could talk to you for hours because I just
adore you, but I have to wrapthis up.
We're going way over the time II allotted, and I probably
promised you.
So, as I told you in advance, Ineed two takeaways.
And remember, this is aboutparents and adult children.
It doesn't have to bemothers-daughters, but it could
be.
What are two things you hopepeople take away from this
conversation?
SPEAKER_01 (40:09):
Well, maybe the biggest one is that that's the
big takeaway, and maybe oneother that we didn't talk about,
but is still important.
Okay.
If something is irritating you,just stop for a second and ask
could that person be respondingto something you said or did?
We tend to think of ourselves asthe prime mover and then and the
(40:31):
other person as a prime mover.
So you did this.
Yeah, but maybe you did itbecause of something I did or
said.
SPEAKER_00 (40:39):
I think that's 100% true.
And I think many of us don'tstop to think that.
I always say to people, it takestwo to tango.
SPEAKER_01 (40:46):
Yeah.
Um, actually, I said we think wethink of ourselves as reacting
and the other person as theprime mover.
I missed Right, right, right.
SPEAKER_00 (40:54):
Very good.
Well, thank you so much.
I appreciate this time.
I really look forward to yourbook on apology.
When do you think that's goingto come out?
SPEAKER_01 (41:00):
Well, I haven't got yet gotten the uh comments from
my editor, so Oh, okay.
So we have a while.
Yeah, we'll have to see how longit takes me to make whatever
changes.
Well, thank you again so much.
My pleasure.
SPEAKER_00 (41:11):
Great.
Well, that's a wrap.
This conversation with Dr.
Tannin was such a gift.
She's certainly an academic, andyou can hear it in everything
she says.
She showed us how our caretowards our adult children can
also sound like criticism tothem.
It really seems like talking tothem about this and sharing this
(41:32):
episode, maybe, can help us bothget on the same path.
You know, just a little thinglike you're wearing that, or I
like the way your dress looks,they can take as criticism.
But she's given us hope thatbecoming more aware of these
messages and listeningdifferently and looking at
ourselves will go more towardsconnection instead of conflicts.
(41:55):
I thank her so much for joiningus, and I know our listeners
will carry these ideas intotheir own families with their
adult children and hopefullyfind a little more understanding
and maybe even a little morepeace in the process.
So thanks, listeners, forlistening.
Thank you, Connie Goron Fisher,our audio engineer, for making
this sound better than we did itwhen we recorded it.
(42:16):
We'll look forward to readingDr.
Tannin's book on apology.
And please log on to ourwebsite,
biteyourtonguepodcast.com, oremail us at
biteyourtonguepodcast atgmail.com.
Give us a good review, donate aslittle as five dollars, but let
us know you're out there and letus know you're supporting us.
And remember, particularly afterthis conversation, sometimes you
(42:39):
just have to bite your tongue.
Caring and criticizing are created by the
same words.
No matter how convinced you arethat you are caring, this is
parent, if you're giving adviceor suggestion, it's criticism on
some level.
And from the point of view ofthe adult child, yeah, you're
feeling criticized, but it'scaring when they say no one's
gonna tell you because theydon't love you as much as I do,
(00:24):
there's a level of truth ofthat.
SPEAKER_00 (00:29):
Hey everyone, welcome to Bite Your Tongue the
podcast.
Join me, your host, DeniseCorinth, as we explore the ins
and outs of building healthyrelationships with our adult
children.
Together, we'll speak withexperts, share heartfelt
stories, and get timely advice,addressing topics that matter
most to you.
Get ready to dive deep and learnto build and nurture deep
(00:52):
connections with our adultchildren.
And of course, when to bite ourtongues.
So let's get started.
Hello, everyone, and welcomeback to Bite Your Tongue.
Today's gonna be one greatepisode.
I'm so excited.
We're welcoming Dr.
Deborah Tannin.
She's a distinguished professorof linguistics at Georgetown
(01:14):
University and one of theworld's leading experts on how
everyday talk shapes our closestrelationships.
We are so fortunate to have herwith us today.
Her groundbreaking bestseller,You Just Don't Understand,
changed the way the world thinksabout communication between men
and women.
Since then, she's written aseries of books that dive into
(01:37):
family talk, including I onlysay that because I love you,
which features the muchdiscussed chapter, I'm still
your mother, and you're wearingthat.
I think all of us can relate tothose titles because they're
phrases we've heard or even usedourselves at one time or
another.
But really, what makes Dr.
Tannin's work so special is shedoesn't just analyze
(02:00):
conversations.
She shows us how even thesimplest remarks, remarks we
make every day, carry years ofhistory, emotion, and meaning.
And most importantly, she offerstools to help us move past
conflict and into deeperconnection.
So let's dive in.
Welcome, Dr.
Tan.
And we are so glad you're withus today.
(02:22):
And I want to say that Iespecially loved your books and
talks, how you gave personalstories and concrete examples.
I'm hoping you're going to sharesome of those today.
SPEAKER_01 (02:31):
I definitely think in terms of examples.
SPEAKER_00 (02:34):
And I think it helps our listeners.
Your career began inlinguistics, yet you've become
one of the most recognizedvoices on how language impacts
our personal relationships.
How did you move towards thiswhole area of family talk?
SPEAKER_01 (02:47):
And what you would call a sociolinguist.
So from the very start, yes,it's the field of linguistics,
but it was how people uselanguage in their everyday
lives.
And it's kind of hard toseparate language from
relationships and you know whatwe're trying to do with it.
Let me start with how I got intothe whole field, which is
actually building.
Okay.
Okay, go ahead.
(03:08):
For my dissertation, I wasinterested in the issue of, and
I'll talk about this all thetime, what I call conversational
style.
The idea that we're justtalking, but we have to make
some decision about how loudlyor softly, how close or far
we're going to stand, how director indirect we're going to be,
(03:28):
on and on and on, all thesedecisions.
And we think we're just talking.
But depending on the culture,uh, which could be part of the
country that you grew up in, theethnic background, personality,
we have different conversationalstyles.
If you talk to someone whosestyle is similar, chances are
they what you what you mean andwhat they hear is going to be
(03:49):
relatively similar.
And if their styles aredifferent, then chances are they
won't.
They may misunderstand what youintend and they will get
impressions of you as a person.
Okay, so I was going to write adissertation and I record I was
recording all my conversationsat the time, but I settled on
one that was a dinner tableconversation, happened to be
(04:10):
Thanksgiving, six of us allsingle.
Uh it was me, my best friend,his brother, his former wife,
another friend of his, and afriend of that friend.
So I was gonna look at eachindividual's conversational
style and see how it affectedthe conversation.
Just by chance, I and my friendand his brother are from New
(04:32):
York City, raised in New YorkCity, and New York Jewish
background, although it's EastEuropean Jewish background.
I have written an article aboutit calling it New York Jewish
conversational style.
It's East European.
I mean, it's kind of New Yorkand it's Eastern European.
And then the other two were fromCalifornia, and then one was
from British.
(04:53):
Well, it turned out I couldn'tsay anything about the
conversational styles other thanthe three New Yorkers.
The others had a hard timegetting the floor.
Now, it wasn't that they nevertalked, you know, if they they
might get the floor at somepoint and tell a very long
story, but they couldn't be partof the give and take.
So I ended up writing aboutthat.
It's kind of emblematic of theuh point about conversational
(05:16):
style that I developed in all mybooks afterwards.
Just take the issue of gettingthe floor.
We all know conversation is amatter of you take a turn, I
take a turn.
How do you know when the otherperson's turn is done and your
turn is uh is up?
Or how do you know whetherthey're stopping because they're
giving up, you know, they'repanning over the floor, or
(05:38):
they're just catching theirbreath.
This is something that I often Ido illustrate with my two
fingers up.
I think you can imagine what I'msaying without seeing the two
fingers up.
If one person is expecting aslightly shorter pause than the
other, the shorter pause comesfirst.
And so you get the impressionthe other person's done or
(05:58):
they're not saying anything.
You don't want there to be anuncomfortable silence, so you
fill it and you do it again andyou do it again.
And actually, with uh the stylethat I ended up calling high
involvement, and I can explainthat too later, you might not
actually wait for silence.
People kind of run down.
SPEAKER_00 (06:17):
I'm an interrupter.
SPEAKER_01 (06:19):
Well, this is one of my major, major points.
So I'm glad you gave me theopportunity to say that right up
front.
The impression is interruption,but it's not the intention.
In co-stylistic speech, in otherwords, among ourselves, nobody
felt they had to stop justbecause someone else started.
You trust the other person.
If they're not done, they keeptalking and you back off and you
(06:43):
find another time.
The most extreme example was oneof the uh it was actually my
friend's brother.
He was trying to get the floorto say something, it wouldn't
work, he'd back off, he'd tryagain, he backed off seven
times, and he got the floor andhe was happy, and we were happy.
He wanted to say it and he saidit.
The Californians, if they triedonce and it wasn't picked up,
(07:05):
they didn't try again.
So it's an economy.
You're trusting the other personto find their way in versus you
trust other people to let youin.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (07:17):
Let's start with the book You Don't Understand,
because the one chapter aboutmothers and daughters really
stood out.
So take us from there to thenyour two books on the
relationship and family.
SPEAKER_01 (07:28):
Okay.
Yeah, sure.
So in the book You Just Don'tUnderstand, which is about women
and men, right, which wasactually my 10th book.
Okay.
Second for general readers.
SPEAKER_00 (07:40):
Well, Matt also became a New York Times
bestseller.
That was the huge one.
That was when your sister saidyou deserve a little bit of
attention or your 15 minutes offame, right?
That's sisters for you, yeah.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (07:53):
Yeah.
So I had written a book calledThat's Not What I Meant, which
was laying out for generalreaders all this idea about
conversational style that Imentioned.
Uh it had one chapter on gender,and that's the one everybody
wanted to talk about.
Right.
So that was then my next book.
I was not a specialist ingender, I was a specialist in
this idea of conversationalstyle.
(08:15):
But I approached the women andmen as cross-cultural
communication because it shareda lot with that framework.
SPEAKER_00 (08:23):
I want to tell my listeners that this book is so
much better than Venus and Mars,whatever that book was called.
So if you think you've read itall, pick up her book.
You just don't understand.
Now go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (08:35):
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you for saying that.
That one did come out after I'dbeen on the bestsellers for a
couple of years.
So take an example.
A couple of riding in the car.
And this was actually asked wasit was the guy who asked me
this.
He said he's riding in the carwith his wife, uh, coming back
from something the night before.
And she asked him, Are youthirsty, dear?
Would you like to stop for adrink?
(08:56):
And he wasn't.
So he said no.
And then later he discoveredthat she was kind of annoyed
because she had wanted to stop.
And he said, Why does she playgames with me?
Why doesn't she just tell methat she wanted to stop for a
drink?
And I said, I'm pretty sure shedidn't expect a yes-no answer.
She probably expected somethinglike, I don't know, how do you
(09:17):
feel about it?
And then she could say, I don'tknow, how do you feel about it?
And they make a decision takingother people's preferences into
account.
And that's the key.
You don't make a demand, youfind out how where other people
are.
So she was opening a space,opening a conversation by which
she would get to say what shewanted, he would get to say what
(09:37):
he wanted.
And they might have gone or notgone, but they showed
consideration for the other.
His answer, no, to her, meant, Idon't care what you want, only
what I want matters.
But that's a different economy.
Again, in his style, if shewants to, she would say it.
And if he didn't agree, he wouldsay, I don't really want to.
(10:00):
Is that all right?
Or if he wanted to, he'd say,Okay.
So people again trust the wordlinguists call the style that
I've described as the wifeasking indirectness.
She was communicating, but notputting everything in words.
By the way, we're all indirect,and I can give examples many,
(10:22):
many more examples of that.
So that would be an example, andit turned out to be very, very
common between women and men.
Uh somebody came up to me aftertalking.
He said, You know, I with mywife and I were reading the book
in the car, and she was readingit to me, and she read that
thing, and I said, you know, wewouldn't do that.
And then she said, Do you wantto listen to music?
(10:44):
And he said, Nope.
So another just uh quickexample.
It's often pointed out that awoman will talk about a problem,
and the guy suggests a solution,and she's frustrated.
She wanted to talk about it.
There, too, I would say it's notso much whether you want a
solution or not.
You're opening up a certain kindof conversation.
(11:05):
So you say a describe a problemto a woman friend.
She might say, Oh, really?
You know, why do you think hesaid that?
And then what did you say?
And then, well, what do youthink you might do?
And what do you think he mightdo if you do that?
You do end up getting to asolution, but you have a
conversation about it.
And that shows your interest, itshows that you care.
SPEAKER_00 (11:26):
I I could talk for an hour about husbands and
wives, but that's a whole notherconversation.
So I want to get into what mylisteners want.
Maybe someday, if you're open,we'd do another one on men and
women.
I would love to, because it's sogreat.
But in one of your talks, youshared that you spoke with many
mothers and daughters.
And when you spoke with onesthat said, we don't have any
conflict, I think the mothersaid, I bite my tongue, and the
(11:49):
daughter said, My mother justisn't judgmental.
So, since the podcast is calledBite Your Tongue, you can
imagine it struck a chord withme.
But here's the question that Iraise how do you be authentic
with your adult children?
Did you talk about the whatshows caring, what shows
criticism?
What are techniques to beauthentic, but not feel like
(12:09):
you're criticizing, not bitingyour tongue all the time?
SPEAKER_01 (12:12):
Right.
And I and I will start with thatwas kind of uh that was the
exception.
SPEAKER_00 (12:17):
Right.
Yeah, yeah.
That's what you said.
Very much an exception.
SPEAKER_01 (12:21):
The most common complaint I heard from adult
children about their mothers,she's critical.
Right.
The most common complaint Iheard from mothers of adult
daughters, I can't open mymouth.
She takes everything ascriticism.
And maybe this is a bit oflinguistics.
We are inclined to think wordscan only mean one thing.
So I know you've been critical.
(12:42):
So you say you're not, you'rebeing disingenuous.
I know I'm just wanted to helpyou.
You're telling me I'mcriticizing.
Why are you so sensitive?
What's the matter with you?
They're both the true.
They're both true.
And you have to hold in yourmind if you offer advice or
suggestion for improvement,there is implied criticism.
(13:02):
Doing something wrong, youwouldn't need the advice.
I I like to tell this examplewas my mother.
Okay.
I was visiting, they wereretired, they were older
visiting, and my mother said, Doyou like your hair that long?
And I laughed.
And she said, Why?
And I said, Well, it was when Iwas writing the book.
And I said, And so many womenare telling me that their
mothers are critical of theirhair.
(13:23):
I talked about three thingshair, clothes, and weight.
My mother said, I wasn'tcriticizing.
And then later in the visit, Isaid, Mom, what do you think of
my hair?
She said, I think it's a littletoo long.
You know, there's an assumption.
Part of it is many of ourconversations have a history.
Yeah.
So you know what your mother isinclined to not totally approve
(13:43):
of or be concerned about.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (13:46):
So are are you saying that as a mother of adult
children, we really should neversay anything?
Because if your friend said toyou, Do you like your hair?
your friend actually couldprobably say directly, Deborah,
I really like your hair shorter.
And you would say, Do you?
You know, tell me more.
SPEAKER_01 (14:03):
I might ask, by the way.
Oh, I got my haircut.
What do you think?
SPEAKER_00 (14:05):
Exactly.
But your mother can't say that.
SPEAKER_01 (14:07):
Every one of us has to be an observer of our own
interactions.
If I say you should you shoulddo something a certain way, it's
going to be perfect for oneperson and terrible for someone
else.
This concept that we each havedifferent conversational styles
is really the bedrock.
You have to start from that.
You need antenna rolled out tosee what is the kind of thing
(14:29):
that gets a bad response andback off on those things.
That kind of is summarizes whatI was describing before.
Okay.
You think you're showing caring,and it's going to be taken as
criticism.
A woman told me this, a woman inher 60s.
She said, My mother's losing hereyesight, but she can still spot
a pimple across the room.
(14:51):
Now, the mother is probably notthinking, I'm going to
criticize.
It's, I want to recommend thiscream that I read about, or I
bought you this cream.
And who else thinks that thatpimple is the main thing on your
face?
You.
That's exactly right.
So yeah, it's caring, but italso is criticizing.
(15:14):
So realizing that the same wordsare doing both, the starting
point.
SPEAKER_00 (15:19):
You know, another story you said that I just
loved.
And I just reminded me, I thinkyour parents were in their 90s,
your mother was very sick, youknow, but your mother said
something.
SPEAKER_01 (15:28):
I think the one you this might be this wasn't me if
if this was it.
Somebody told me that her motherwas in the hospital.
She was so concerned that shegot a call, you know, she jumped
on an airplane, comes into thehospital room, bends down to
kiss her mother, and her mothersays, When's the last time you
did your roots?
Oh, and she loved it.
(15:49):
She loved it because it meant mymother's okay.
Well, so, and I think this isquite true.
You said, but it's reallycaring.
Yes, but it's also reallycriticism.
We have to keep in our mindsthat that it's both.
And this idea that to beauthentic is to say it.
You know, there's lots of thingswe don't say.
It's nothing inauthentic aboutnot saying lots of things that
(16:12):
we think.
The the term we use metacommunication.
SPEAKER_00 (16:15):
Yeah, let's talk about these meta messages.
SPEAKER_01 (16:17):
Absolutely.
Have a conversation.
This is what I think is goingon.
I think I'm showing caring.
I'm just now I realize that I'mactually criticizing.
Right.
But the other side too.
I love this one.
A woman told me, thank you somuch.
You know, this was having readmy book, thank you so much for
that book.
(16:38):
She said, I visited my mother,and for the first time we didn't
argue.
And I said, That's so wonderful.
You know, can you explain whatwas different?
She said, Well, here's anexample.
Uh, while I was visiting her, Iwent shopping and I bought two
pairs of socks, one black, onenavy.
The next day I was wearing oneof the pairs of socks, and my
(16:58):
mother said, Are you sure you'renot wearing one of each color?
And she said, In the past, Iwould have blown up.
Mom, I have a master's degree,and you don't think I can match
my socks.
But she stopped for a second andshe thought, Who else is gonna
care about the color of mysocks?
So much of that is so true.
And that was the connection Iwas gonna make way, way back.
(17:21):
That to ask questions about youknow how what's going on and
what did you eat for dinner, andwho did you meet, and how did
you like it?
And it shows all of that showscaring.
And there's um, think of a womanwho said uh about her mother,
who else can I tell?
I got a good deal on toiletpaper, right?
Caring about the details of yourlife.
(17:42):
And that is more, tends to bemore women than men.
I mean, that's the kind of thingthat I'm one of three sisters,
and my father would.
What do all you girls find totalk about?
SPEAKER_00 (17:53):
Why do you think sons don't have this situation
as much with their parents ortheir mother?
SPEAKER_01 (17:59):
Well, one thing is I said hair closing weight.
Right, right, right.
It's appearance and women'sappearance is much more
scrutinized in our culture.
And we have a lot more optionsthat we have to choose from.
Styles change.
I often do this when I'm uhgiving talks.
Look around the room, I'll say,and the largest group I ever did
(18:20):
this with was 2000 in theKennedy Center concert hall.
Okay.
Look around.
Do you see any two women withthe same hairstyle?
No, no, there's bangs, no bangs,short, colored, what color?
You could endless, endless,endless.
And yeah, there could be a guywith something unusual, you
know, a ponytail or uh spiky uhstuff sticking up.
(18:44):
But the most men make the choiceof just this is a term we use in
linguistics, it's unmarked.
It doesn't get any attention,just neutral.
We don't have a neutral.
So that's two reasons rightthere.
More attention on ourappearance, and we have to
choose from such a range ofstyles that any choice we make,
somebody's gonna think we didn'tmake the right choice.
SPEAKER_00 (19:06):
I think that's true.
I think must have to dosomething with personality too,
because I know my son, I couldsay, Why are you wearing pants
like that?
And he would have no reaction toit.
I don't know, these are in stylenow, or you know, I'm trying to
get them a little shorter, blah,blah, blah.
He for some reason doesn't takeit as a criticism, he takes it
as caring.
SPEAKER_01 (19:26):
Well, how much attention has he had to pay to
his clothes?
None.
And how much is he going to bejudged as a person based on his
choice?
Interesting.
I'm gonna make one more, onemore point about what's
different.
So much of what women dotogether is talk, a place of
(19:46):
talk in a relationship, andnothing is true of all women and
men.
I have to say that as many timesas you know, we can say it.
But the tendency is for girlsand women to spend more time
sitting and talking.
And we do troubles talk, youknow, talking about things that
are bothering us, talk aboutpersonal things.
It's more sensitive.
And we're talking more, so wehave more opportunity to say the
(20:07):
wrong thing.
For most boys and men, they canbe very good friends, but they
won't talk as much.
It's doing things together, it'sbeing together.
He plays tennis with the guy andshe gets together with the wife.
And this, I can't tell you howmany people this similar thing
has happened to.
And she says, gee, you know,isn't that terrible that they're
getting divorced?
(20:28):
And he says, They are.
I didn't know that.
Oh, this is so true.
This is so true.
And he mentioned, no, you know,we're not talking about our
marriage, we're playing tennis.
I talk about that a lot with myfriends.
This is the explanation, andpeople trace this to kids, how
we've used language growing up,that the little girl's gonna be
sitting and talking andwhispering in each other's ear.
SPEAKER_00 (20:48):
The boys are gonna be hitting each other and
criticizing each other, and noone cares.
All right, we need to talk aboutthe meta messages, and then I
also want you to talk about thisconcept, and I'm not gonna say
it right complementaryshimogenesis.
How do you say schismogenesis?
I should know that by speakingGreek, right?
Schismogenesis, right?
Okay, so let's do the metamessages and then the
(21:11):
complementary schismogenesis,yes.
SPEAKER_01 (21:16):
Everything we say has these two levels.
Message is the meaning of thewords, meta message is what does
it mean that we're saying thesewords in this way at this time
in this relationship.
Very often we end up arguingabout the words, but it's the
meta message, it's what we thinkthe person is implying, what we
think it says about what theyhow they feel about us.
(21:37):
So, perfect example, my motherasking, Do you like your hair
that long?
That's the message.
She's asking me if I like myhair that long.
The meta message is your hair istoo long.
And I know it because the factthat she's asking a history that
I I know she tended to think myhair was too long.
And often that's the kind ofthing that we are responding to.
SPEAKER_00 (21:59):
Can you give a couple more examples of that?
Yeah, let me just give you someyeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:04):
So two people are riding in a car and they're not
talking.
What's the meta message of thatsilence?
Is it you're mad at me andthat's why you're not talking?
Is it you're so comfortable withme that you don't feel you have
to talk?
Is there something that I shouldbe asking you and you're angry
that I'm not asking you?
So even no words can have theseall these different messages.
(22:27):
So true.
SPEAKER_00 (22:28):
Okay, let's go to complimentary complimentary
schizmo genesis.
SPEAKER_01 (22:32):
You say it.
Okay.
This traces to ananthropologist, Gregory Bateson.
He was married to Margaret Mead,and I like to say because how
often do you have to say who aman is by telling you who his
wife was?
SPEAKER_00 (22:45):
It's worth my It's definitely worth doing.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (22:49):
So a schism is a split.
Genesis is creation.
Complementary schismogenesis iscreation of a split in a
complementary way.
In other words, they go inopposite directions.
So we have different styles.
And you think, well, I'll justadjust a little bit and then
you'll just adjust a little bitand won't things get better.
(23:09):
Complimentary schismogenesis iswhat you do, whatever your style
is, drives the person to moreextreme versions of the other
behavior.
So here's an example.
Okay.
This is actually a real one.
Uh so a guy was uh, this was awork situation.
He was asking a particular womanif she wanted to have lunch with
him, and she didn't.
So she said, No, I'm kind ofbusy this week.
(23:32):
And then later he asks, No, I'dreally like to have lunch with
you.
And she said, You know, I'mreally not feeling very well.
And she gets more indirect.
And finally he says, Would youplease tell me, is it that you
don't want to have lunch withme?
I should stop asking, or is itreally the case that you're so
he's trying to get more directto get her to tell him what she
(23:56):
really thinks?
That makes her practicallyaphasic, because there's no way
she is going to look this man inthe face and say, I don't want
to have lunch with you.
So she starts double talking tothe person.
So each one was driven to moreextreme versions of the opposing
behavior.
SPEAKER_00 (24:11):
Can can that happen in family relationships, do you
think?
Or how does it happen in familyrelationships?
SPEAKER_01 (24:16):
Um, time of style is different.
It can happen.
You know, the book I justfinished, I sent the first draft
off to my publisher.
SPEAKER_00 (24:22):
Oh, the one you were working on when we were going to
do the interview and you neededto finish.
Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:27):
Apologies.
Oh, I want to get intoapologies.
Okay.
So you want an apology fromsomebody and they're not giving
it.
So you apologize to give them agood example.
And they say, Yeah, you reallyshouldn't do that again.
That's really bad.
So you've made it worse ratherthan making it made it better.
I apologize, you'll get a goodidea.
(24:48):
This is actually again true.
Someone's had lunch with a guy,and he was just the whole time
talking about himself.
By the end, she said, Why areyou telling me all this?
And he said, I want to get toknow you.
So it sounds, but his idea ofhow to get to know you is I talk
about myself and you talk aboutyou, but you're not doing your
part.
So I tell more.
And then you're talking so muchthat I really clam up and talk
(25:11):
more.
So what each one is doing isdriving the other to a more
extreme.
That makes perfect sense.
Let me give you this example ofa student who compared her
mother and her father and twodifferent ones.
My students observe their ownbehavior, and you know, so this
is the one who really preferredher mother.
She was sick.
Normally she would talk to hermother, but this time her mother
wasn't home.
(25:31):
She talked to her father.
Oh, Daddy, I feel terrible.
You know, I have a sore throat.
And uh and he said, Well, takeTylenol.
She said, Well, I did, but itreally didn't help.
Uh well, go to the healthcenter.
There, everybody's sick, and Icouldn't get an appointment.
And he says, Well, can't helpyou then.
This is real.
And she wished her mother whowould have said, Oh, I'm so
(25:52):
sorry.
I wish I was there to make you acup of tea.
You know, another one prefersthe mother.
Okay, so she w breaks up withher boyfriend.
She feels really bad about it,and she tells both her parents
and gets their advice.
Her father never brings it upagain.
Every time she talks to hermother, How are you doing?
How's he doing?
Have you heard from him?
Have you met anybody?
Has he met anybody?
(26:14):
Finally, she asks, Yeah, mom,please stop bringing it up.
Uh, it it makes it harder.
So then her mother feels bad.
Then she feels bad that she madeher mother feel bad.
So this is also true.
This paradox that everyconversation we have to ask
ourselves, are you showinginterest or are you intrusive?
SPEAKER_00 (26:34):
Are you showing interest or are you intrusive?
So it's really our job toexamine that or talk openly
about it to our adult child.
Like, do I sound intrusive whenI say this?
If I do, let me know.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (26:47):
Or or even when you're not saying it.
Right.
Let's here's this issue, and Idon't know which direction I go
in, but now it's not happeningright now.
So if you tell me yourexperience with me, do I not ask
enough?
SPEAKER_00 (27:02):
Yeah.
So you also talk about balancingcloseness and independence.
And mothers and daughtersparticularly wrestle with
wanting intimacy butindependence, particularly the
daughters, I think, want theindependence.
The mothers want the intimacy.
And the daughters deserve theindependence.
As you said, I'm 55 years olderand my mother still doesn't
think I can match my socks.
How do they reach that balance?
(27:23):
Are do you have any suggestions?
SPEAKER_01 (27:25):
Well, I think talking about it is definitely
important.
Stepping back and trying to seeit from the other's point of
view.
Maybe that's the most importantthing you can do.
Uh, we want to think we're agood person.
SPEAKER_00 (27:37):
Well, 99% of the time, I really think you are,
and you mean well.
I really do.
And I do too.
SPEAKER_01 (27:44):
I often say mine is a rhetoric of good intentions.
I love that a rhetoric of goodintentions.
I'm gonna save that.
SPEAKER_00 (27:52):
I'm a rhetoric of good intentions that don't
always work.
SPEAKER_01 (27:54):
And sometimes people are frustrated, you know,
sometimes people have badintentions.
SPEAKER_00 (27:58):
All right, so you talk about this big three hair,
clothes, and weight.
And I'm gonna say your book waswritten long enough ago that I
think some of that has yes, butno.
I think mothers are a littlemore accepting the way their
daughters are looking.
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong,but other things come up,
whether it be their lifestyle ortheir values.
Um, people are taking so manydifferent paths.
(28:19):
You know, that's movement.
That's how they raise theirchildren is becoming really
important.
SPEAKER_01 (28:24):
Whatever it is, it's gonna be different from what it
what it was.
SPEAKER_00 (28:27):
What the hair, the weight, the clothes, the raising
children, the living conditions,the career choices.
Do you think social media hasintensified this and made
mothers, probably becausethey're more engaged in social
media than the fathers, like,oh, my child will never be like
Sally on, you know, whatever.
Do you think there's some harmin social media with these
(28:48):
relationships?
SPEAKER_01 (28:48):
Well, social media brings both harm and good on
every level.
Everything good is part harm.
Um, when I talk to mothers,daughters, as well as sisters,
women's relationships ingeneral, friends, when they are
hurt, when mothers were hurt,more often than not, it was not
being included in something andnot being invited to something.
And that is an extremely commonway of being hurt for women.
(29:12):
There's reality behind it.
When girls get mad at a girl,they lock her out.
Boys don't do that.
They might treat him badly, butthey don't lock him out.
And of course, in junior high,it gets quite really, really,
really hard.
Social media aggravates thatbecause you see what everybody's
doing and you're not there.
You see all the things that weregoing on that you weren't
(29:34):
invited to.
So I think that makes it worse.
That makes it worse.
SPEAKER_00 (29:38):
How about you describe family conversations as
a dance between connection andcontrol?
What does that mean exactly?
I don't think I say dance.
Okay, maybe I added the word indance.
Sorry.
All right, between connectionand control.
Um, I like the way it sounded.
SPEAKER_01 (29:56):
How about that?
Yeah, the connection andcontrol.
Is is like the criticism andcaring.
You know, okay.
All the C's.
Want to be connected to eachother.
It's like the independence.
We want to be connected, but wealso want to be free and
independent.
Woman said about her daughter.
You know, I understand she'sgetting older and she wants to
(30:18):
break the bonds.
And that's the bonds of bondage.
But say that again.
SPEAKER_00 (30:24):
She wants to break the bond.
Oh, bondage.
Right.
Okay.
That's no control.
SPEAKER_01 (30:28):
That it doesn't become bondage.
Bondage.
SPEAKER_00 (30:32):
Boy, there's a happy that is a dance, and there's a
very thin wire you're walking onbetween bond and bondage.
SPEAKER_01 (30:39):
Yeah.
And again, what seems like themost perfect connection to one
person is going to seem wayoverconnected to another and
rejection to another.
There's a lot of culturaldifference here.
There's cultures where women andmen, by the way, they'll be
holding hands all the time andhugging one.
SPEAKER_00 (30:58):
I've seen that.
And other cultures where theynever touch their kid at all.
I really want to talk aboutfamily roles because I loved
what you talked about with yoursisters and this thing we carry
on from childhood, eldest,peacemaker, rebel, and how it
complicates communication as wecome adults' roles.
SPEAKER_01 (31:15):
The oldest sister is the toughest role.
It really is.
It really is.
SPEAKER_00 (31:20):
I'm the youngest of three.
And the middle is the best role,I'm going to tell you.
There are so many differentmiddles.
Well, I'm talking about three, Iguess.
They for sort of forget aboutyou and you can do your own
thing.
SPEAKER_01 (31:30):
Yeah.
Well, there's six years betweenmy oldest and the next.
Oh, okay.
Like that's a oldest sister.
You do.
Yeah.
They're both oldest.
Right.
Right.
Okay.
So go ahead.
But oldest sisters are put inthe often, not always often, put
in the position of watching outfor the young ones, taking care
of them.
You know, you watch them.
My my mother definitely did thatwith my oldest sister.
(31:52):
She calls herself a parentifiedchild.
She was put in that position,you know.
I can't handle them.
You take them.
And she was great with us.
Especially you.
You were the rebel.
Yeah, well, as a teenager, Idrove my mother nearly into the
grave.
SPEAKER_00 (32:09):
I think you drove her into the grave as a young
adult.
Sorry.
Based on what I heard.
That's all I can say.
SPEAKER_01 (32:16):
No, it was the and well, this is an interesting
thing too.
I'm a child of the 60s.
My sister's a child of the 50s.
SPEAKER_00 (32:23):
Oh, that's a big change.
Big difference.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (32:26):
We're born into the same family, but it's a
different family when each of usis born.
Economic situation is different.
They're going through in theirlives is different.
And how does that translate intoadulthood?
Well, I want to say one thingabout the old okay, sorry.
And this is a quote from LouisaMay Alcara, I'm told.
Another great woman.
Yeah.
The first child is pure poetry.
(32:47):
All the rest are prose.
Oh my gosh.
The kind of attention that thefirst gets that is really
irreplaceable.
SPEAKER_00 (32:56):
It's overwhelming.
SPEAKER_01 (32:57):
All the pictures of the first one are too busy for
the others.
But the downside is neverresented.
You know, you're not my mother.
You take them for granted.
I've, you know, anecdotes I'veheard.
You just assume the oldest oneis going to do all the planning,
and you just assume the oldestone is going to pick mom up and
take her to church, even thoughshe lives 45 minutes away and I
live live 10 minutes away.
(33:18):
It wasn't me, that was told meby someone else.
Right, right.
SPEAKER_00 (33:21):
Do you think sometimes the oldest child
thinks that they'll just do abetter job?
Absolutely.
Like sometimes I think, yeah,sometimes I think it's my
problem of thinking, let me takecare of it because I'm better at
it.
SPEAKER_01 (33:32):
And and a feeling that it's your job.
I mean, you don't even thinkabout it.
Something has to be done.
I should do it.
I describe a lot about findingmyself with my two sisters, and
I become helpless.
SPEAKER_00 (33:45):
So let's talk about the power of apology, the focus,
the impact, the intent.
SPEAKER_01 (33:50):
Well, yeah, that there's a lot of different ways
to consider apologies.
Many apologies don't have wordsat all.
Let me start with thefrustration that often women
feel that apologies are veryimportant and are more likely to
apologize than men.
Again, not everybody across theboard, but tendency.
(34:11):
Level on which if you apologize,you're kind of putting yourself
in a position of weakness.
And there's a level on which ifyou apologize, you're
acknowledging that you careabout the other person.
And the tendency is for women tofocus on that caring side.
If he won't apologize, hedoesn't care that he let me
down.
Tendency among men is okay, Icommitted a misdemeanor, but you
(34:32):
want me to plead guilty to afelony?
What is the big deal?
Of course, I didn't do it onpurpose.
I love you.
I wouldn't do that on purpose.
So why are you insisting Iapologize?
So those two things uh arealways there.
And like all the conversationalstyle differences I talk about,
you can focus on one or theother.
And if one is focused, focusingon one, the other on the other.
SPEAKER_00 (34:54):
Can you relate that to parent and adult child?
Is the parent the first toapologize typically if there was
a riff?
SPEAKER_01 (35:01):
Let me tell you, uh, one of the things that totally
surprised me, totally surprisedme in writing this book.
How many people, when I said,You have any stories about
apologies, told me about theirparents.
Interesting.
That the parents apologized ordon't.
Well, it could be my parentapologized and it meant so much
to me.
(35:21):
Especially those were often endof life.
Oh, interesting.
Um, you know, my mother did allthese, and you don't want to
hear all the things that, butreal, you know, real things that
hurt the kid acronym.
I wasn't really focusing on it,but before she died, my mother
said I shouldn't have done that,and I I'm sorry.
And it was huge, huge that shecared.
(35:44):
She cared that it had thateffect on me.
And some of them were wishing aparent would apologize and the
parent won't.
Often those were about bringinga stepfather into the family.
SPEAKER_00 (35:58):
And then I and it's really sad that it's the end of
life because really, if we couldall pick ourselves up and
realize there are no perfectparents, and uh every kid's
going to be in therapy, howeverhard we tried, and apologize for
what it was that we were notable to provide, it might make a
huge difference.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (36:15):
And it's quite astonishing how much it can
mean.
I was just astonished.
People that I talked tosometimes cried, but those who
cried with almost one, only oneexception, they cried when they
told me that the parentapologized.
It was that moment rather thanall these terrible things that
they suffered.
(36:35):
That they didn't cry about that.
So I think it's because it's somoving.
But I think it's again, I thinkit's about caring.
You want to know that the parentcares.
SPEAKER_00 (36:46):
And you think as a parent, your kids should know
they care.
You care.
And and God you care.
SPEAKER_01 (36:52):
That's the other side of it.
From parents, I talked aboutagain, thinking of that book I
wrote about mothers anddaughters.
So many women told me the worstthing, worst thing would be to
think they weren't a goodmother.
The one woman who had a careeras a journalist, you know, she
said, people could criticize myjournalism.
That's just why, but if somebodyimplied I wasn't a good mother,
(37:14):
I'd fall apart.
So in a way, apologizing isadmitting that you weren't a
good mother in that way.
And one woman told me how much Imeant to her when her mother
apologized, and what she saidwas, and she was assuring her
mother that she was a goodmother.
And I think that's what made itpossible for her mother to say,
(37:35):
yeah, I did that bad thing, butI still was a good mother.
SPEAKER_00 (37:40):
And I find, and I don't know whether this is true,
but in day-to-day relationships,particularly with my spouse, if
he gets angry with me aboutsomething or points something
out, I loved your thing aboutpulling the recycle out of the
garbage.
I mean, I want to tell you howmany times it's recyclable.
If you just say I'm sorry,everything goes away.
SPEAKER_01 (37:58):
Yep.
We're we're the reverse.
My husband and I are thereverse.
Oh, really?
Many of the things I talk about,he isn't your typical guy.
But this one is he does not liketo say he's sorry.
And I'll tell you two funny onesbecause you know he's heard me
talk about this, and he knowsright into saying, I'm sorry for
everything.
SPEAKER_00 (38:17):
And and you said, and I identified with this too.
My husband does this, somethingfunny, it makes you laugh and it
goes away.
SPEAKER_01 (38:23):
And another one that this probably more recently, I
said, Well, why don't you justsay you're sorry?
He said, You know, I can't saysorry the same day.
And it's true.
He can say it the next day.
SPEAKER_00 (38:34):
Yeah, it's you know, it I don't know.
I just know I want to cut itoff.
So I figure if I say I'm sorry,it's done.
I don't even have to mean it.
SPEAKER_01 (38:42):
Well, that's absolutely you mean that you
want it to be over.
SPEAKER_00 (38:46):
You I mean that I want it to be over, right?
SPEAKER_01 (38:49):
Exactly.
Exactly.
This is very revealing.
I was actually visiting mysister and her husband, and he
came home late and he wassupposed to help, but he said,
Well, I was there, so he didn'tneed to help.
And they they were going backand forth.
And he at one point said, Well,I just don't know what to say.
And I sort of mouthed,apologize, he didn't pick it up.
(39:10):
So I whispered, apologize, hedidn't pick it up.
So I went over and I belted,apologize.
And my sister said, Yeah, ifyou'd apologize, I'd forget it.
But what he said was that neveroccurred to me.
To me, that was so revealing.
It's not like he was resistingit, it just wasn't on his radar
(39:31):
screen.
And I think part of that is it'snot going to change anything.
Words mean more often, notalways, often to women than to
men.
Actions, men focus more on.
Your friend is the one you doeverything with, your best
friend is the one you telleverything to.
SPEAKER_00 (39:49):
Well, I could talk to you for hours because I just
adore you, but I have to wrapthis up.
We're going way over the time II allotted, and I probably
promised you.
So, as I told you in advance, Ineed two takeaways.
And remember, this is aboutparents and adult children.
It doesn't have to bemothers-daughters, but it could
be.
What are two things you hopepeople take away from this
conversation?
SPEAKER_01 (40:09):
Well, maybe the biggest one is that that's the
big takeaway, and maybe oneother that we didn't talk about,
but is still important.
Okay.
If something is irritating you,just stop for a second and ask
could that person be respondingto something you said or did?
We tend to think of ourselves asthe prime mover and then and the
(40:31):
other person as a prime mover.
So you did this.
Yeah, but maybe you did itbecause of something I did or
said.
SPEAKER_00 (40:39):
I think that's 100% true.
And I think many of us don'tstop to think that.
I always say to people, it takestwo to tango.
SPEAKER_01 (40:46):
Yeah.
Um, actually, I said we think wethink of ourselves as reacting
and the other person as theprime mover.
I missed Right, right, right.
SPEAKER_00 (40:54):
Very good.
Well, thank you so much.
I appreciate this time.
I really look forward to yourbook on apology.
When do you think that's goingto come out?
SPEAKER_01 (41:00):
Well, I haven't got yet gotten the uh comments from
my editor, so Oh, okay.
So we have a while.
Yeah, we'll have to see how longit takes me to make whatever
changes.
Well, thank you again so much.
My pleasure.
SPEAKER_00 (41:11):
Great.
Well, that's a wrap.
This conversation with Dr.
Tannin was such a gift.
She's certainly an academic, andyou can hear it in everything
she says.
She showed us how our caretowards our adult children can
also sound like criticism tothem.
It really seems like talking tothem about this and sharing this
(41:32):
episode, maybe, can help us bothget on the same path.
You know, just a little thinglike you're wearing that, or I
like the way your dress looks,they can take as criticism.
But she's given us hope thatbecoming more aware of these
messages and listeningdifferently and looking at
ourselves will go more towardsconnection instead of conflicts.
(41:55):
I thank her so much for joiningus, and I know our listeners
will carry these ideas intotheir own families with their
adult children and hopefullyfind a little more understanding
and maybe even a little morepeace in the process.
So thanks, listeners, forlistening.
Thank you, Connie Goron Fisher,our audio engineer, for making
this sound better than we did itwhen we recorded it.
(42:16):
We'll look forward to readingDr.
Tannin's book on apology.
And please log on to ourwebsite,
biteyourtonguepodcast.com, oremail us at
biteyourtonguepodcast atgmail.com.
Give us a good review, donate aslittle as five dollars, but let
us know you're out there and letus know you're supporting us.
And remember, particularly afterthis conversation, sometimes you
(42:39):
just have to bite your tongue.
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