May 21, 2026 • 49 mins
The end of a long-term marriage is rarely a sudden explosion; more often, it is a slow, quiet accumulation of unexpressed resentments that eventually hardens into contempt. In this episode, we sit down with Stacey, a business owner and mother who walked away from a twenty-four-year marriage that looked perfect from the outside but left her feeling increasingly invisible. Now on the other side of fifty, she shares the raw, unvarnished reality of rebuilding her identity from scratch after decades of playing the role of the primary breadwinner, wife, and mother.
We get into the specific tactical mechanics of navigating a structured separation, including the emotional weight of exchanging multi-page reflection letters and the practical strategy of using a shared Google Sheet to hammer out financial assets at six o'clock on a Saturday morning without draining bank accounts on legal warfare. Stacey opens up about the devastating logistical realities of the process, from scripting the exact speeches used to break the news to her teenage daughters to the gut-wrenching experience of spending her first Thanksgiving and Christmas completely isolated from her children. We dive deep into her realization that staying in an unfulfilled partnership out of fear sets a toxic precedent for the next generation, a philosophy proven right by her daughters' eventual journey into behavioral health fields and their ultimate gift of adult forgiveness.
The unglamorous truth is that pulling the plug on a long-term marriage forces you to carry a massive burden of guilt and accept being cast as the villain by extended family and old social circles. Stacey doesn't shy away from the hard phases of survival, discussing her temporary reliance on clinical anxiety management, dropping significant weight under stress, and the agonizing process of unlearning a childhood conditioning that taught her anger was a dangerous emotion. True resilience requires transitioning from survival mode into radical self-care, a path that took her from processing grief on a beach in Florida to getting a power anthem tattooed on her shoulder during a childless holiday weekend.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to Bitter or Better, real stories of divorce
and resilience, the podcast thatgets real about the messy middle
of divorce and what it takes tocome up stronger on the other
side.
I'm your host, Abby England,marketer, national board
certified health and wellnesscoach, and author of the
upcoming book, Bitter or Better.
And I've personally earned mydivorce Kevlar.
(00:23):
This podcast isn't legal advice.
It isn't tips and tricks anddon't forgets and hacks and
how-tos.
There's plenty of other podcastsout there, interviewing lawyers,
therapists, accountants, allsorts of divorce scientists.
This podcast is raw, realconversations with everyday
people who have jobs, kids,responsibilities, commitments,
(00:46):
and yet they've weathered theheartbreak, rebuilt their lives,
and found unexpected strengthalong the way.
Because while divorce can breakyou, it can also make you
better.
You are not alone.
Let's hear someone else's storyand see what resonates.
All right.
If you want to introduceyourself.
Hi, I'm Stacy.
(01:07):
I'm glad to be here.
I'm so thankful that you'rehere.
And you are a curator of people.
And I am I am one of the peoplethat you have created.
SPEAKER_01 (01:18):
I'm stealing that.
SPEAKER_00 (01:20):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (01:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I joke that I'm a border collie.
My spirit animal, if that sayingisn't offensive, I think it
might be, is a border colliebecause I just round up people
and I don't let anybody of theflock stray.
SPEAKER_00 (01:32):
It's funny how we met each other, and I think it's
serendipitous.
So it is.
SPEAKER_01 (01:36):
And I will tell you too, this week you should be
glad that the results were whatthey were.
SPEAKER_00 (01:41):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (01:42):
Because it has been a very rough week.
Oh, for me.
But better since last night.
Since yeah, the weekend hasbegun.
SPEAKER_00 (01:50):
We are about to go into a chapter of your life that
I know at least I believe, Idon't think you've talked a lot
about.
I don't know much about thischapter of your life.
SPEAKER_01 (02:01):
No, it feels long ago.
I've closed that chapter andmoved on.
So I don't talk about it.
Not because I won't talk aboutit.
It's just not that not that topof mind anymore.
SPEAKER_00 (02:12):
Yeah, because you're how many years out from it?
SPEAKER_01 (02:15):
I got separated a little over 10 years ago and
divorced a little over nineyears ago.
SPEAKER_00 (02:19):
So why on earth did you agree to sit down with me
and revisit this chapter of yourlife?
SPEAKER_01 (02:27):
It's a good question in addition to curating people.
I love to help people.
I love to give advice, sometimesunsolicited.
I can be a bit of a know it-all.
I've been calling myself adivorce whisperer because the
second you get divorced, allyour other friends who are
thinking of it or separated orwhatever will come to you and
ask for advice.
So I've served this purpose fora lot of people, and I'm happy
(02:49):
to do because it's important.
I I read that divorce is thesecond most stressful thing you
can go through after the deathof a spouse.
And I think there are manypeople who would argue that
divorce is more painful than thedeath of a spouse because
they're still here.
And especially if you have kids,you're still dealing with stuff.
So it's an incredibly stressfultime.
And if this can help somebody,I'd be very happy about that.
(03:12):
I will say it's a risk becausethe last thing I want to do is
hurt anybody by so I'm gonna trynot to air any dirty laundry,
but I especially don't want tohurt my kids or even my
ex-husband.
We don't talk often, but we'reon very good terms.
So anyway, I'm gonna be a littlebit careful about what I say.
SPEAKER_00 (03:30):
I think just even generalities is gonna help
people.
It didn't sound like you havealready helped people when your
own circle of friends that theycame to you for advice, maybe as
you were in the thick of it.
Yeah.
The mission of this podcast isjust to help other people feel
(03:50):
like they're not alone.
SPEAKER_01 (03:52):
It's so important.
I and I can't believe nobody'sdone this already.
Or if they have, I'm not awareof them.
Because I I will be referringeverybody to this from now on.
SPEAKER_00 (04:02):
So if we were to rewind the clock, maybe take us
back to how you met.
SPEAKER_01 (04:07):
I was 21.
He was 25.
First semester of graduateschool, I went straight after
undergrad.
He took a few years off.
And I had a college boyfriendthat I was on the rocks with.
We knew it was over, but wehadn't broken up.
And now we were trying to longdistance thing, which wasn't
going very well.
And it's the first day of gradschool, I walk in and I'm
looking around.
And when you start college, youlook around at all the cute
(04:29):
boys, they're everywhere.
Grad school's a littledifferent, a little older crowd,
a little nerdier crowd.
And I was looking around becauseI was living in a new city and I
was things weren't going greatwith a boyfriend.
And I looked around this entireclass that I was in, and there
were two cute guys.
And you were like, I picked thewrong grad school.
I know, but I kept my eye on thetwo cute guys, and over time I
(04:52):
decided that there was one thatwas cuter than the others.
I will distinctly remember twoclass periods in a row.
One of them, I ran into arestaurant on campus.
And by the way, this gradschool, we had class Monday
through Thursday, 6 to 10 p.m.
And we worked full-time duringthe day.
And I look back at that, I'mlike, how was that even
possible?
I don't even know.
But we would grab lunch at fastfood on campus before class
(05:13):
started at six.
And I happened to be in linebehind him, and I was so
overwhelmed.
I said, I didn't even do thehomework.
And just without a word, hehanded me his homework and let
me copy off of it.
And I just remember hishandwriting was so nice and neat
and tidy, and just the way hehad his name at the top right
corner of the paper and allthis.
I'm like, what a nice guy.
He's so sweet, he's so kind,he's so gentle, he's so quiet.
(05:34):
And then I think it was the verynext day we were on a break
during class, and he was out onthe balcony wearing a black
leather jacket.
This is before people wore blackleather jackets, smoking a
cigarette, which gave him thiskind of look that at the time
appealed.
And I will tell you, 27 yearslater, did not appeal at all.
And then he was telling a storyabout how he'd gotten a DUI and
(05:56):
spent the weekend in jail.
And I'm like, What he's a badboy.
I'm like, is he a good guy or abad boy?
And I was just intrigued.
SPEAKER_00 (06:04):
And you saw one story with the handwriting and
then a complete one eight withthe the letters.
SPEAKER_01 (06:10):
I was just like, Who is this guy?
I gotta figure him out.
So, anyway, long story short,over Thanksgiving that fall
semester, broke up with thecollege boyfriend, not because
of him, it just it was gonnahappen.
And last day of class inDecember, he and I went out on
our first date, and that waspretty much it.
I felt like I won because allthe other girls in that grad
(06:31):
school were also after him.
Oh, so the hunt.
I beat them.
I did, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:38):
So then what was the marriage like?
SPEAKER_01 (06:43):
It was good.
It was overall very good.
We're 23 years before we gotseparated.
We were married almost 24.
Largely good, I would say.
And he is a good man and a greatfather, and still care about
him, always will.
I think the problems we weren'tgreat at communicating, we
weren't great at fighting.
(07:04):
It was a this classic thingwhere you get annoyed but you
don't say anything, and you justbruise and bruise until the
little thing sets you off, andthen you have a screaming fight
that you don't resolve and youdon't talk to each other for
three days, and then you justpick up and act like
everything's normal.
So we did that because we justdidn't have the skills and we
were just young.
I got married at 24.
Oh he was 28.
Okay.
(07:24):
And also it was a differenttime.
People just were not asemotionally intelligent then as
they are now.
It was overall good.
Over time, there was definitelya power shift because when we
got married, he had the power inthe relationship.
I let him.
I don't know why, but I did.
Over time, that balance of powershifted a lot.
And the other thing I wanted tomention is the family that I
(07:45):
grew up in, and my parents arephenomenal people.
I describe them as stoicScandinavian Midwesterners.
Emotions are very pesky.
We don't like them.
Yeah.
Especially the quote, negativeones, especially, we just
pretend they don't exist.
We never show them.
Even the positive ones, yougotta don't be too happy.
(08:06):
So, this is what I grew up with.
Over time, I poisoned myself,basically, because I was mid-40s
by the time a therapist taughtme that anger is not bad.
In my brain, anger is bad.
And I thought my husband had ananger management problem because
guess what?
He got angry sometimes.
Can you believe it?
Isn't that unreasonable?
And I thought it was, and I wasso afraid of his anger because I
(08:29):
wasn't used to dealing withthat.
I never saw it growing up, thatI did everything I could to not
provoke it.
So I made myself small and Iswallowed down lots of things.
I'm still mad about things thathappened 25 years ago, which is
stupid, and that's my fault.
That you wish you would haveyeah, yeah.
It didn't feel safe to me bejust because I was so afraid of
his anger.
And I certainly didn't show myown because that would provoke
(08:52):
his.
Anyway, I've learned a lot sincethen, but over time that that's
just not helpful at all.
SPEAKER_00 (09:00):
So that's how you would describe the marriage.
SPEAKER_01 (09:05):
Oh overall, good, strong, happy, loving, healthy,
but an undercurrent of poorcommunication, squashing down
emotions.
And over time it just thingsjust got worse and worse.
And the smoking was an issuetoo.
If somebody tells you they'regonna quit smoking, you should
(09:26):
probably not believe them.
I learned that.
Yeah, it wasn't quite as cuteand charming.
SPEAKER_00 (09:30):
No, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:32):
We get away with a lot with with youth.
Yes.
Yeah.
With dating and with being thecute boy.
SPEAKER_00 (09:38):
Yes.
And so you had children?
SPEAKER_01 (09:42):
Yeah, we have two daughters.
We'd been married four years forthe first one and six or seven
years for the second one.
He was a great dad, veryinvolved, fun, funny, goofing
around.
We he got us involved in allAmerican soapbox derby, which is
this random thing that nobody'sever heard of.
It's old school, but they builtsoapbox derby cars, and the
(10:03):
girls they traveled all aroundthe eastern coast for six or
seven years competing.
And my girls were in the worldchampionships six times.
Oh my god.
Yeah, they both placed like onewas sixth in the bet in the
world, and the other was seventhin the world, and that would
have never happened without him.
Because first of all, I neverheard of it.
Second of all, I wouldn't havedone it.
SPEAKER_00 (10:22):
So I'm sure that's something special between them.
SPEAKER_01 (10:25):
Yeah, yeah, it was.
We have lots of good memorieslike that.
SPEAKER_00 (10:29):
You said good, happy, other positive
adjectives.
What happened?
SPEAKER_01 (10:38):
I will just say that he and I have very different
outlooks on money.
He he doesn't care about moneyso much.
I again, my family of origin whois wonderful, but the message I
learn about money is you need towork really hard for it, you
need to make a lot of it, youneed to save a lot of it, and
(10:58):
you should always constantly beworried that it's never enough.
So that's my viewpoint, which isnot healthy, by the way, working
on it.
But different.
Different.
And he had a 10-year-long periodwhere he was unable to, and to
his credit, this started duringthe Great Recession.
So a lot of people werestruggling.
(11:19):
And I owned a business then,which was great because I had a
lot of flexibility and I couldmake a lot of money.
And I did, and I supported thefamily for a decade.
And that caused a lot ofresentment because I felt like I
didn't have a full true partner.
(11:39):
And to be fair, he he wentgrocery shopping, he cooked
dinner every night.
Uh, the girls would do thedishes every night.
I felt like I was cheating.
I'm like, I'm the mom and I havenothing to do with dinner.
This feels wrong, but it's alsoawesome.
Yeah.
So I would just say a shortviewpoint is again, I poisoned
myself with the resentment thatI wasn't really able to convey.
(12:03):
And it turned into disdain, iswhat I called it in my brain.
And later I learned thatcontempt is the word that they
use in like psychology.
And once a relationship gets tothe contempt stage, it's very
difficult to save it.
SPEAKER_02 (12:14):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (12:15):
And I also want to point out if you had asked me
right after the divorce, quoteunquote, whose fault is it?
What happened?
I would have been all fingerspointing at him and been able to
do a litany of all the things hedid wrong.
But with time and distance andtherapy and reflection, I'm
equally to blame.
And just not understandingemotions and not knowing how to
(12:36):
manage my mind and not havingthe courage to communicate
clearly.
I mean, things could have been alot different.
And by the way, we went throughseven years of marriage
counseling.
Oh, which was super helpful andworked.
It did work.
And and we learned a ton throughthat.
And our skills, even goingthrough the divorce process,
thank God we went through thatbecause we finally felt safe to
(12:57):
talk to each other and not holdin the anger and all that.
We got there.
It was just too little, toolate.
SPEAKER_00 (13:02):
It's interesting that although the therapy didn't
quote unquote save the marriage,it did give you tools to go
through the divorce process.
SPEAKER_01 (13:13):
For sure.
And I mean, today I would callus friends.
I mean, he texted me somethingfunny the other day, which is
unusual.
We don't communicate that often.
But um, I don't think we had wenot learned those skills and
gone through the therapy.
SPEAKER_00 (13:27):
As much as you feel comfortable, how did the D-word
I was reflecting on this and Ihad almost forgotten I had
brought it up when the girlswere little one time, and then
we shoved it under the rug witheverything else, very lumpy rug,
and didn't talk about it again.
SPEAKER_01 (13:46):
And I brought it up maybe a year before we actually
did divorce.
And so I he never brought it up.
I brought it up a couple times.
My parents, by the way, weremarried 50 years before my dad
died.
His parents were married 65years before his dad died.
We both went in this, obviouslythinking this was forever.
It was a huge mindset shift.
(14:08):
Probably five years before wesplit.
The hypnotherapist I had thetime, the same one who taught me
that anger was not bad.
It was a normal human emotionand helps you set boundaries and
lets you know what boundariesare being violated.
Anyway, this interesting.
Yes, this uh hypnotherapist, andI was mid-40s by then, by the
way.
So it feels a little late tolearn that.
But this hypnotherapist kepttake to this place and having me
(14:33):
think and repeat um, let me facewhat I need to face.
And I was like, oh God, no,because I knew what I needed to
face, because I was not happyand I wanted to go.
Good girls don't do that.
And that's not what we do in myfamily.
He was a good guy.
So I ended up switchingtherapists because I was like, I
(14:53):
can't face what I need to face.
And then I had another therapistwho asked me, What does your
future look like for you?
And at this point, my oldestdaughter was a freshman in
college, the youngest was asophomore in high school.
So I had two and a half yearsuntil she left for college.
My my rational mind and my gutwere fighting constantly.
SPEAKER_00 (15:15):
They were in opposition with each other.
SPEAKER_01 (15:17):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (15:18):
What was one side saying versus the other?
SPEAKER_01 (15:20):
So my rational mind was like, he is such a good man
who I love, who is a great dad,and we have our family, and we
have our home, and we have ourkids, and I love my in-laws, and
he loves my parents, and we livein this great neighborhood.
Things are so good, and this Ineed to stay.
(15:42):
And my gut was just gettinglouder and louder.
But your gut is just gonna keepgetting louder and louder until
you listen to it.
SPEAKER_00 (15:49):
And what was your gut saying?
SPEAKER_01 (15:51):
Get out.
unknown (15:53):
Get out.
SPEAKER_01 (15:55):
It was saying in a creepy way.
It was saying, it wasn't even ina creepy way.
It was like, leave, there'smore.
I I was just increasinglyunhappy.
And my therapist said, What doesthe future look like for you?
And I thought about it and Isaid, Oh, okay, I can see
calendar pages in front of mefor the next two and a half
years, and they're black,they're just dark and black.
(16:17):
And then I kept thinking aboutmy future.
And I'd owned a business at thatpoint for 14 years, lived in the
same house for 23 years, beenmarried to the same man for 24
years, whatever it was.
My numbers might be a littleoff.
And I was 47, 48 at the time.
And I just pictured myselftrudging forward in the same
house, married to the same man,owning the same business, doing
(16:39):
the same job, trudging forwardtill I toppled into the grave.
That was the image in my head.
Because I was 40, I guess 47 atthe point.
I'm like, I'm old.
I'm over the hill.
It's all downhill from here.
I've done all the good stuff.
And I just should accept myfate.
And this is the rest of my life.
I think I was probably verydepressed and didn't realize it.
(17:02):
But this conversation with atherapist about that really made
me realize oh, holy shit, thisis not right.
This is not good.
The gut just keeps gettinglouder.
And I thought, I can't possiblyleave until my youngest
daughter's in college.
So that's two and a half years.
So I'll just get through thoseblack calendar pages and keep
trudging towards the grave untilshe goes to college.
(17:23):
And so that was the first stepof me accepting, okay, I do want
to do this, which was a hugestep, many years in the making.
Talking to my therapist, shesaid, this isn't fair to him at
all, which I had not thought of.
She's like, he thinks you have afuture.
He doesn't know you have thistimeline.
It's really not fair.
And that was in the back of myhead, and I was thinking about
(17:45):
that.
How did you react to that?
Oh, I felt terribly guilty.
unknown (17:49):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (17:49):
And yet, in a way, I was happy too because it was a
get out of jail free card.
She was like, my therapist isgiving me permission to pull the
cord now.
Now instead of waiting.
I'm all doctor's orders, right?
I think that was early in the2014.
And I still didn't take anyaction until I think it was the
(18:11):
end of May.
He made a decision and didsomething in secret that I very
much disagreed with.
I was very upset.
And I ended up making a commentone day.
I said, You have no idea howhard I'm trying to stay married
to you.
Which I think he knew at acertain level because we'd had
some other conversations.
But his eyes just got big and hethought about it and he said,
(18:33):
Well, if you don't want me here,I don't want to be here.
And the timing worked out.
The youngest daughter spent allsummer as camp counselor.
She was about to leave for thesummer.
He moved out on June 5th.
He went to a hotel.
unknown (18:47):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (18:48):
And so she the daughter, she was gone.
SPEAKER_01 (18:51):
No, no, she was gone.
I want to tell you about whathappened during this separation
because it was reallyinteresting.
He approached me.
He had read about this thingcalled a structured separation,
which I had never heard of.
And apparently the way it works,or at least what I remember, is
live separately.
You each have your owntherapist.
You also have your couple'scounselor you go to.
(19:13):
And then one day a week, youeither spend the week or an
evening or whatever together,and you date and you go to have
fun and try and remember what itwas you like about each other.
And you also write reflectionsback and forth to each other.
He asked me if I would considerthat.
And I said, Of course.
Again, I don't take this lightlywith this seven years of
(19:35):
counseling and the parents beingmarried so long and all that.
So I said, Yeah, let's do it.
And so for four or five weeks,we did that.
We spent a weekend down inColumbus that he had planned out
for us whitewater rafting andrunning in a 5K and restaurants.
He brought me gifts.
It's like he was full courtpress courting me.
(19:57):
And we had a blast and I lovedit.
And he wrote these long lettersto me.
The first one was nine pages.
And I think he attached somearticles and had some quotes and
stuff in it too.
And I had almost forgotten aboutthis.
But because I knew I was doingthis podcast, I went back and
reread my journals from 2014 and2015.
Yeah, that wasn't very fun atall.
(20:18):
But it was necessary because Ihave these backwards-looking
rose-colored glasses.
I had it easy.
It wasn't, it was my decision.
So it was much easier than a lotof other people and no big deal.
And in rereading my journal, Iwas like, oh no, I think I again
tamped it down because we don'tlike those pesky emotions.
So I forgot it.
But the truth is, we wrote theseletters back and forth, and I
(20:40):
have them.
So now I know exactly what mindframe he was in, exactly what
mind frame I was in.
And I was stunned at the time,and I continue to be stunned now
by how emotionally intelligentwe were with each other, just
going back and forth and backand forth.
And after doing this for four,five, six weeks and having a
great time, he's one of hisreflections he wrote to me, he
(21:02):
said, I feel that you still havea pull to a different life.
And I wrote back and I said,Yeah, I do, because this is
wonderful, but this is not reallife.
We can't continue to do thisindefinitely.
I the little taste of freedom Ihad, I just wanted more.
So that's when we decided todivorce.
SPEAKER_00 (21:24):
I just want to go back to something you said at
the very beginning.
You you mentioned a quote,divorce is maybe the second most
traumatic thing one can gothrough.
And some might argue the mosttraumatic, given the
circumstances of it.
And then I connect that back toyou going through your journals
(21:44):
and rereading kind of those rawemotions that you kept in real
time.
And even though you wanted it,you felt pulled in another
direction, it was still the mosttraumatic thing.
SPEAKER_01 (22:00):
That you've been through.
Absolutely.
Because I was tearing our familyapart.
Yep.
Here's where I'm gonna getchoked up.
SPEAKER_00 (22:12):
That's okay.
Those feelings are okay.
Yeah.
But you felt pulled to somethingelse.
Yeah.
What was on the other side ofthat pull for you?
SPEAKER_01 (22:24):
Freedom.
I guess part of it is I'd feltso responsible for the whole
family, for everything.
SPEAKER_00 (22:30):
Yeah, you were carrying a huge amount of
responsibility.
SPEAKER_01 (22:33):
Yeah, and I owned a business and I felt responsible
for my 12 employees, theirlivelihoods and their families
and their incomes.
So I found myself by 2015.
I'd sold my business.
I was divorced.
I'd had one child who was goingto be left for one year in the
house before she went tocollege.
I just could start over andrecreate myself.
(22:56):
And I bought a townhouse, whichis exactly what I wanted in this
particular part of town andunit.
Got it, decorated it however thehell I wanted, made new friends,
learned new hobbies, got a newjob.
And not all at once.
It wasn't all this easy, but thepull was to freedom.
(23:16):
And if I'm really honest, it wasto another partner who I've also
since found.
I had a whole lot of fun lookingfor him.
Dating, I found dating to bevery fun.
I'm an extrovert and I almostmet my partner too soon.
I would think I would haveenjoyed dating a little bit
longer.
SPEAKER_00 (23:35):
Yep.
But everything happens for areason.
If we could maybe go back to theactual divorce process, sure.
What did you have to do or getin order or learn to prepare you
for this process?
SPEAKER_01 (23:50):
I don't think there was that much.
It feels like there should be alot, but I already had, I was in
charge of the finances for thefamily.
So I already had all thatinformation.
I did go to friends of mine whowere divorced and use them as my
own personal divorce whisperer.
So I got a lot of advice and Igot a lot of referrals to
lawyers.
(24:10):
And I went and consulted with acouple of lawyers, I think
before he and I even talked.
I don't really remember thetimeline now, but I think I was
just checking out how does thiswork?
Yeah.
Just to learn about it.
I I don't think I did a wholelot of prep.
I think once we made thedecision, I just dived in.
SPEAKER_00 (24:27):
I certainly don't want to put words in your mouth,
but it sounds like the actualdivorce process wasn't all that
difficult.
SPEAKER_01 (24:35):
I remember it as not being a big deal at all.
Of course, rereading thejournals was more of a big deal
than I thought.
But it wasn't.
The 2014, the year we gotseparated, that was painful and
awful.
And I didn't even talk abouttelling our girls about it.
That was by far the worst part.
But I'll really start crying.
The the separation was thehardest part because that's when
your life changes.
That person's no longer there.
(24:56):
And you're not talking to themevery day and sharing the inside
jokes and all that.
And you got to tell people andthe kids and all that stuff.
By the time the divorce happeneda year later, all that was
normalized.
The fact that a judge signed apiece of paper on a certain day
didn't really change anything.
Fun fact my husband moved out onJune 5th of 2014.
(25:18):
So that's the day we officiallygot separated.
The judge signed the divorcepapers on June 5th, 2015.
Oh, but wait, there's more.
And my first date with mycurrent partner was June 5th,
2016.
SPEAKER_00 (25:30):
Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_01 (25:30):
Isn't that wild?
That is what I was just totalcoincidence.
SPEAKER_00 (25:33):
Let me also say my wild story is that my ex dropped
the quote unquote, I'm unhappybomb on me Labor Day weekend of
2022.
And I got the final divorcepaper back from the judge, Labor
Day weekend of 2024.
SPEAKER_01 (25:55):
Okay, so now you need something really happy to
happen on Labor Day weekend.
So it becomes a good day foryou.
SPEAKER_00 (26:00):
Yes, it's a holiday weekend.
SPEAKER_01 (26:02):
I know you don't want it to be ruined.
SPEAKER_00 (26:04):
Yeah, no.
So it doesn't sound like theactual process was that
strenuous, but you still needthe legal repute representation.
Yeah.
What did that look like?
SPEAKER_01 (26:14):
We each had our own lawyer, and I had gotten
referrals from a couple of mydivorced friends and met with a
couple and found that some ofthem charge eye-popping dollars,
and others are just what's anarm instead of an arm and a leg.
So I've I love my lawyer.
Her name is Jessica Reese Fagan.
She actually got married whilewe were going through this.
And I'm like, your husband is avery brave man to marry you.
(26:36):
And she said, Oh no, you he cando no wrong because I hear all
the terrible stories, what allthe other husbands do.
So I appreciate him so much.
But she was fantastic.
My ex-husband lawyer waspregnant, which I don't think he
knew.
She ended up having a baby inthe middle of it.
So she took three months off.
So anyway, process could havebeen done in nine months, but it
took a year, but it was fine.
And at the end, he and I did thefinal negotiations.
(26:59):
I remember what it was like sixo'clock on some Saturday
morning.
We were on the phone.
We had a shared Google sheet.
We were going back and forth,just negotiating with each
other, plugging in differentnumbers.
It was like three hours.
But at the end, we agreed.
We sent it to both of ourlawyers and later we compared
notes.
Both of our lawyers said, Yeah,I think I could have done better
for you.
And we actually laughed about itbecause we're like, we must have
(27:20):
done a pretty good job.
This must have been pretty fair.
But that was really nicebecause, first of all, it saved
us a lot of money.
And we both felt good about itbecause we did it together, not
through these third parties.
And we had agreed up front thatwe were not going to get into
this ridiculous thing whereyou're spending tons of money on
lawyers to fight over stuff.
So the lawyer's getting themoney.
(27:40):
I'd rather quote lose and havehim get the money because then
my kids have a chance at some ofthe money over the lawyer
getting the money.
So at the end of it all, didn'tend up spending all that much
money on lawyers, which wasreally good.
SPEAKER_00 (27:53):
It it sounds like uh you you had a shared goal of
what that end was fair to theboth of you.
Yeah.
And then just how you got therelittle by little.
SPEAKER_01 (28:04):
I didn't want to screw him.
He didn't want to screw me.
We wanted to remain on goodterms.
And again, it's all about ourkids.
I know this is going to bedifficult.
SPEAKER_00 (28:13):
I think it's also going to be helpful to others.
To the extent you feelcomfortable, what can you share
about having to share this newswith the family, with your
daughters?
SPEAKER_01 (28:26):
I I do think people will want to hear this because
this is the worst part by far.
And I'm already crying.
SPEAKER_00 (28:33):
From me talking with so many other people, I don't
have kids, but it does soundlike one of those long poles in
the tent that keep one in amarriage, also because Oh, for
sure.
You don't you don't want to hurtyour kids.
SPEAKER_01 (28:48):
Good parents don't hurt their kids.
I do want to get through thisbecause it is important for
people to know.
I'll try and keep it short.
Me being me, I planned way aheadand I wrote a little speech.
All the professionals say thetwo of you do it together, and
you don't say whose idea it was,and you'd be your team and all
(29:09):
this.
He was not playing ball withthat.
And he said, No, you it's yourdecision.
You need to tell them.
And he was with me.
And honestly, I was okay withthat because they're smart, they
knew the dynamic, they wouldknow, they'd figure it out.
We could tell them, oh, mom anddad both decided this together.
They would see right throughthat.
And this way I could control thenarrative a little bit.
(29:30):
So I actually have friends whohave a lake house.
I remember I went up to theirlake house for like overnight
and just by myself and sat ontheir dock and wrote out my
little speech.
The difficult part was theyoungest was still, she was 16.
She was still being a campcounselor.
The oldest one was 19.
She was it had spent the summertaking college classes.
(29:51):
And I had forgotten this till Ireread my journal.
I went back and forth because Iwas freaking out about this.
She was in um California goingto college, living by herself.
And I'm like, do I fly outthere?
Do we fly her home?
My parents live two hours away.
Do we tell my parents?
We hadn't told yet, because thegirls need to be the first to
know.
Do we tell them and have themdrive up?
(30:13):
So she's not alone.
What do we do?
And I don't remember how wedecided, but we FaceTimed her,
which is probably not ideal.
My husband was in the room and Ihad passed the phone to him
after.
But I went through my littlespeech.
I was crying.
Yeah.
And she, 19, she was totallystoic.
(30:34):
She was totally fine.
She was like, Mom, stop crying.
I'm a psychology major.
So it's not like I haven'tanticipated this.
I mean, it was a shortconversation and she seemed
fine.
I was like, well, that wasalmost too good to be true.
And it was too good to be truebecause a few weeks later, she
called in the middle of thenight, left a voicemail because
I didn't wake up, sobbingbecause her favorite DJ from the
(30:55):
radio was getting divorced fromhis wife.
And she's very upset about that.
And I called her back and I waslike, I'm not a psychology
major, but I don't think that'swhat you're upset about.
She she was the easy one,although who knows what's
inside.
The youngest came back from campand we sat her down and I went
(31:17):
through my speech.
Didn't cry this time in the sameroom.
X was in the same room too.
And she just went up to her roomand shut the door.
And he went up a little whilelater.
And she was crying.
I don't remember if I went upthere or not, but she didn't
(31:37):
talk to me for days.
It might have been weeks.
She didn't talk to me, which wasreally hard.
But I I think she told himeventually.
And he told me is one of theproblems was I didn't apologize.
And I didn't.
I wrote this whole speech out.
I forgot the apology part.
(31:58):
And she had a few other concernstoo that she told him, and then
him told me.
And I sat down with her and wetalked and we went over it.
And it was okay.
She obviously started talking tome again.
She ended up living with me.
He moved out, so she had to talkto me.
But it was okay.
It was an adjustment.
I just remember this one time.
(32:19):
He used to cook for us everynight because he's a good cook.
He loves to cook.
I hate to cook.
And my daughter hates to cook.
And so we were on our own onenight and we looked in this
cookbook we had for these likechicken fingers, these fried
chicken things, and we made it.
And it took forever.
This is why I hate cooking.
And we made them and I we tookour first bite and they were so
freaking delicious.
(32:39):
And we just looked at each otherand smiled, and we were like, We
did it.
Look at what we did.
I don't think we ever made itagain.
But it worked out.
And I won't say that it didn'tdamage her or both of them.
If you really want to laugh, mytwo daughters who've both gone
through grad school combinedhave four degrees in psychology.
SPEAKER_02 (32:58):
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (32:59):
And one in human development.
Okay.
And they both work in behavioralhealth.
So I'm sure it's purecoincidence.
That said, they're the mostemotionally intelligent people I
know.
And it's phenomenal.
My oldest daughter is a marriageand family therapist.
SPEAKER_00 (33:16):
I can only assume that this experience gives her
real life credibility to helpother people.
SPEAKER_01 (33:25):
I think so.
I go to her for advice all thetime.
She's incredible.
And the youngest as well.
She's the human development anddouble psychology major.
So she she works with kids.
She's the one who was more upsetwith me.
And she had to live through it.
Her sister was off in collegeand didn't see as many changes.
But the youngest gave me thegreatest gift in the world
(33:45):
probably five years later, whenin she was early 20s.
Just one day she said, I'm notmad at either of you anymore.
She said, I've stopped seeingyou guys as my parents, and I
see you as adults that have yourown issues.
And I'm like, Yes, that's true.
And it it felt like forgiveness.
SPEAKER_00 (34:05):
Yeah.
So the gift of forgiveness.
Yeah.
That you guys are, I recognizethat my parents are people also.
Yes, they're humans.
And they're imperfect.
SPEAKER_01 (34:15):
Yes, absolutely.
I will say though, the hardthing is when you split and
you've got kids, you see themhalf as often, even if they're
adults.
So holidays, that firstThanksgiving and the first
Christmas, where I did not seemy children.
My oldest daughter, thetherapist, has two kids.
I actually have two grandbabies.
(34:37):
And the first was born onThanksgiving, and my ex-husband
got Thanksgiving with her.
So he was in California with herwhile she was very pregnant, at
the hospital, while she gavebirth, while they came home,
having Thanksgiving dinner.
He was with her and I was not.
And I was supposed to go atChristmas and I caught COVID.
So I did not get to meet mygranddaughter until she was two
(35:00):
months old after the entire restof the family did.
Still sucks.
Thank you for sharing that.
It that was the worst part.
But for anybody out there, youjust handle it as best you can
and get them help too.
Our family spent a lot of moneyon therapy for everybody.
Just try and do it asrespectfully as you can and pay
(35:22):
attention to their needs.
They should come through it.
And certainly, fear of that isnot a reason to stay in an
unhealthy marriage.
Because what example are yougiving them?
If my daughters were in mymarriage, I would have told them
to leave.
SPEAKER_00 (35:35):
Yeah.
So you're just living by theadvice that you would give to a
friend, a family or daughter.
You were so many things in yourmarriage: mom, breadwinner,
wife.
What tools do you utilize to getthrough the worst?
SPEAKER_01 (35:55):
I did have a therapist, did a lot of
journaling as discussed.
I think just a lot of talking.
I process things throughtalking.
And my sister's really my bestfriend.
Oh, I had didn't mention thiseither.
My sister went through a divorceat the same time.
Speaking of the June 5th date,yeah, her husband moved out the
(36:16):
same week of June in 2014 asmine.
Yeah.
Her her divorce was finalizedthe end of that year.
Hers took six months, mine tooka year.
We had a lot in common and a lotof phone calls.
I will also say, too, it was nother choice to end her marriage.
And the issues were somewhatsimilar.
She'd been a stay-at-home momand the the money and the
(36:37):
resentment.
And it was very helpful for meto hear her side of the story
because a lot of her feelingswere what my soon-to-be
ex-husband was feeling.
And it gave me more empathy toher soon-to-be-ex because he was
in the same shoes as me.
So it was just this weirdsituation.
But it it was really helpful forher and me.
(36:57):
We probably talked on the phoneevery day.
And when I answered the phoneand she was calling me, she was
probably crying 50% of the timeor more.
I will say it's a lot harder toget divorced when it's not your
decision, just from what I'veseen.
The one gift you get is youdon't get the guilt.
If you're the one who pulled theplug, it might be easier in some
ways because it's what you want,but you also get the guilt.
(37:20):
And you're the bad guy.
And I very much was, accordingto his family.
For a while, most of them comearound.
But you gotta prepare yourselfthat people are gonna be mad at
you and not gonna like you, andyou're gonna lose friends and
family, because I did.
SPEAKER_00 (37:35):
And so it sounds like that freaky Friday
situation with your sisterhelped not only deepen your
relationship with her, but alsoum maybe a deeper sense of
empathy towards what yourhusband was at the time
experiencing.
SPEAKER_01 (37:52):
For sure.
Because it's a rejection.
She was rejected.
I rejected him, and I was ableto see and hear the impact.
Even if he couldn't express itto me, I had a better
understanding of what he wasprobably going through.
SPEAKER_00 (38:06):
And I have to imagine that empathy then
trickled down to your girlsalso.
SPEAKER_01 (38:11):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_00 (38:13):
And and how you wanted this quote unquote new
family to come out on the otherside of this.
SPEAKER_01 (38:19):
Yes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (38:20):
Through the journaling that you kept and now
going back through it.
What insights or values becamecrystal clear for you as a
result of this process?
SPEAKER_01 (38:34):
The most obvious would be independence and
freedom.
I've always been a veryindependent person, almost to a
fault, because I've had afantastic partner now for over
eight years.
I will not get married.
We don't mix our money.
And I'm really almost tooindependent, I think, sometimes.
But yeah, independence andfreedom are big ones.
(38:57):
Very much valuing emotionalintelligence and communication.
All this therapy does pay off.
And second go-rounds, again, nottrying to encourage divorce, but
for people thinking about it,second go-rounds, second
relationships, as long as you dothe work, can be so good.
Uh, give an example.
My current partner, when westarted dating, we were a few
(39:19):
months in, he said, Oh, by theway, let me tell you what my
triggers are.
And he told me what his triggerswere.
And I was like, wait, you can dothat?
I wasn't even sure what minewere, but I thought about it and
I told him what my triggerswere.
And now we don't step on eachother's triggers.
If we don't agree on something,get this.
We talk about it and we listento each other and we adjust our
(39:40):
behavior.
Isn't that mind-blowing that youcan do that?
It is.
And honestly, the sad thing is,had I had these skills, had my
ex-husband and I had theseskills when we were in our 20s,
we'd probably still be marriedtoday.
But we did not have thoseskills.
SPEAKER_00 (39:54):
So your values, independence, autonomy, freedom.
What kind of became yournon-negotiables as you were
looking for your next partner?
SPEAKER_01 (40:04):
That's a great question.
I know secrets.
Obviously, everybody deservesprivacy, but I had a therapist
say once it's secrets sickenpeople, which I think is true.
And secrets put distance betweenpeople.
If you are with the right personthat you can be very vulnerable
and be yourself with and beauthentic, there's no need for
secrets.
And I have that now.
Walking on eggshells, I willnever walk on eggshells.
(40:27):
Again, same.
Financially supporting someone,there's the cold bitchy one, but
financially supporting someonejust does not work for me.
It's not nice, but that's wherewe are.
And I would say addiction.
I won't do addiction or peoplewho don't take care of their
health.
SPEAKER_00 (40:46):
Let's talk about health.
When you were going throughthis, how did you maintain or
prioritize your health andwellness?
SPEAKER_01 (40:58):
One way to answer that is the magic combination of
Zoloft and Xanax.
Better living through chemistry,true fact, for short periods of
time.
I'm I've been off that stuff fora very long time.
And I think going through thisdivorce process, I think
everybody probably thought I wasa cold-hearted bitch because I
never cried.
(41:19):
I thought, oh, I must be acold-hearted bitch.
But I got off Xanax or Zoloft.
I got off Zoloft, and as we haveshown today, I cry all the time
now.
So be careful.
That stuff will dampen all youremotions, even the positive
ones.
But besides the better livingthrough chemistry on a temporary
basis to get through, I'vealways had a personal trainer.
So working out, I did lose, if Iremember, 26 pounds in five
(41:43):
months.
Now, I did that because I knew Iwas going to be dating.
And I will also say, sadly, thatweight and more is all back, but
was eating really healthy,walking a lot.
I love to go on walks withfriends and just talk with
friends.
It's like physical therapy andemotional therapy at the same
time.
SPEAKER_00 (41:59):
Walk and talks are powerful.
SPEAKER_01 (42:00):
Yes.
And I had therapists, I had mysister.
I still have all these thingstoday.
I still do all these thingstoday.
And I've since learned about thepower of not just addressing
anxiety and depression and stuffwith your brain, but also your
body.
So I've recently been gettinginto more embodiment and somatic
stuff and like sound healing.
(42:22):
And I love a good sound bath.
I had my first one two monthsago, and I oh, I'm hooked now.
Just a lot of self-care.
And when you're going through adivorce, the extreme version of
self-care.
SPEAKER_00 (42:36):
I was just listening to a podcast that you shared,
and they called it it's time forradical self-care.
I loved that phrase.
When I was going through justthe muck of it, I was
temporarily living in Floridawith my mom and my stepdad at
their house.
And I gave myself permission togo for a walk on the beach in
(43:02):
the middle of the afternoon tosleep in.
SPEAKER_01 (43:05):
Was this okay?
Was this radical?
Yeah, you know what?
It sounds like exactly what youshould have been doing.
SPEAKER_00 (43:10):
It is for my type A achiever person.
I understand.
SPEAKER_01 (43:13):
I'm the same way.
SPEAKER_00 (43:14):
Yeah.
To just to have permission toinvite my friends down,
different groups of friends, andspend time with them, to binge
watch shows with my mom.
I'm a health and wellness coach,and so eating healthfully is so
important to me.
Uh, I didn't go too far off therails on that, but it was like
permission just to sleep,connect, and laugh.
SPEAKER_01 (43:37):
And listening to your body and what does my body
need right now?
That that has been a new thingfor me.
Because, like you, I'm very typeA and I'm like, no, but I got a
list.
I plan to do these three thingstonight, and I've finally gotten
to where I'm like, it's okay.
I don't have to do them rightnow.
My body is telling me I needthis or that.
I'm trying to listen more.
SPEAKER_00 (43:56):
So you're several years out from.
This now.
And you've done all thistherapy, a great relationship
with your daughters now.
What would this uh Stacy say tothat Stacy who was in the throes
of it?
SPEAKER_01 (44:15):
If I had to go back to like my lowest moment, what I
would tell myself is this is theright thing to do.
It can be very painful, but itis the right thing to do.
It will 100% be worth it.
And a whole new wonderful lifeis awaiting me on the other
side.
Yeah, I the pages on thecalendar are no longer black.
I'm no longer trudging forward,waiting to topple into the
(44:38):
grave.
When I was 47, 48, I thought mylife was over.
I thought my sex life was over.
I am now turning 58 in threedays, and I'm here to tell you
my life is not over.
My sex life is not over.
I've met so many people, I'vedone so many new things, I've
gotten new jobs, new friends,new hobbies.
No, no ruts.
(44:58):
There are no ruts in my life.
There's just a lot of noveltyand fun and adventure.
I don't think that would havehappened.
I honestly going through allthis, I feel like anything's
available to me.
I feel like I can do anything.
I feel very powerful, veryconfident.
Um, I actually feel younger thanI did at fifty almost 58.
(45:19):
I feel younger than I did at 48,which is crazy.
And what do you think that isattributable to?
I think it's mindset.
I think again, you're in thesame house, doing the same
thing, in the routine, nothingchanges, and just everything's
new.
Where I live to what I do for aliving to the people I hang out
(45:41):
with.
I really feel like the world ismy oyster.
SPEAKER_00 (45:45):
Yeah, when I talk to others, it didn't really hit me.
And then someone said you get asecond chance at life.
And when I heard that, I waslike, Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (45:55):
You can reinvent yourself if you want.
SPEAKER_00 (45:57):
You can do whatever you want.
Yeah.
The word reinvent absolutelyeither reinvent or go back to
who you were.
SPEAKER_01 (46:08):
Yes, because maybe you were not really that person
when you were married.
Maybe you took a little detourthere for a while.
So come back to yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (46:15):
And maybe you shape shifted yourself to in a box.
SPEAKER_01 (46:20):
Everybody's shape shifts around to be in a
relationship to some extent.
But yeah, you can rediscover whoyou really are.
SPEAKER_00 (46:27):
So as it relates to tools and resources that helped
you get through this, what booksor articles or written work or
quotes or post-its, whatever itwas, what did you find
especially helpful?
SPEAKER_01 (46:40):
I know I did a ton of reading and a ton of
research.
The only thing I remember is onebook.
And the title is Too Good toLeave, Too Bad to Stay, which
really described my position.
I remember buying the book andkind of hiding it as I read it
around the house because Ididn't want anybody to see me
reading it.
I don't remember that itactually helped me because at
the end I was, yeah, I stillthink it's too good to leave,
(47:02):
too bad to stay.
But I wanted to mention thatbook because it might help other
people.
They might see something in it.
SPEAKER_00 (47:09):
And then what other music or chants or mantras they
helped you through this time?
SPEAKER_01 (47:17):
The one thing that comes to mind is saying that I
had tattooed on my back.
My sister and I, our firstdivorce Thanksgiving, neither
one of us had our kids.
So we were together and wepretended it wasn't
Thanksgiving, and we went andgot tattoos on the our
shoulders.
And the one I chose was SheBelieved She Could, so she did.
SPEAKER_00 (47:36):
Oh, I love that.
SPEAKER_01 (47:38):
Isn't it great?
That is like the power anthemright there.
She believed she could, so shedid.
So yeah, I have it on myshoulder forever now.
SPEAKER_00 (47:46):
Maybe that's the title of this podcast episode.
Okay.
Sure, whatever.
Whatever you think.
So, what do you want people totake away from hearing your
story?
SPEAKER_01 (47:59):
I want people to really know that there is life
on the other side.
I've talked to so many friendsand my sisters, seeing them
being distraught, just life isover, I don't want to live
distraught.
And it takes time and it takeswork.
It's not easy, but I've seenmultiple people go to being
gloriously happy.
(48:20):
If you're in the distraughtphase, just know that it won't
last.
And if you're sitting in it andruminating and being bitter, not
trying to get better, it mightlast.
But if you're doing the work andtrying to practice some
gratitude and talking to friendsand getting some help, you
absolutely can become happierthan probably you ever thought
(48:41):
you could be and happier thanyou were before.
SPEAKER_00 (48:44):
Yeah.
I relate to that because somedays are just about survival.
Yeah.
I remember those days.
Yeah.
And some days are only like zeropoint zero one percent better
than the day prior, but it'sstill a little bit better.
Yeah.
You add that up over time.
(49:05):
It adds up to a lot.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Thanks for listening to Bitteror Better, where we turn
heartbreak into healing andsurvival into strength.
As Brene Brown says,vulnerability is the last thing
we want to show, but the firstthing we look for in others.
That's what this is all about.
Real people showing up, sharingtheir stories, and reminding the
(49:27):
rest of us that we're not alittle bit.
If this episode resonates withyou, share it with someone who
might need to hear it too.
And remember, you have a choice.
See you next time.
Real stories, real people, real
Welcome to Bitter or Better, real stories of divorce
and resilience, the podcast thatgets real about the messy middle
of divorce and what it takes tocome up stronger on the other
side.
I'm your host, Abby England,marketer, national board
certified health and wellnesscoach, and author of the
upcoming book, Bitter or Better.
And I've personally earned mydivorce Kevlar.
(00:23):
This podcast isn't legal advice.
It isn't tips and tricks anddon't forgets and hacks and
how-tos.
There's plenty of other podcastsout there, interviewing lawyers,
therapists, accountants, allsorts of divorce scientists.
This podcast is raw, realconversations with everyday
people who have jobs, kids,responsibilities, commitments,
(00:46):
and yet they've weathered theheartbreak, rebuilt their lives,
and found unexpected strengthalong the way.
Because while divorce can breakyou, it can also make you
better.
You are not alone.
Let's hear someone else's storyand see what resonates.
All right.
If you want to introduceyourself.
Hi, I'm Stacy.
(01:07):
I'm glad to be here.
I'm so thankful that you'rehere.
And you are a curator of people.
And I am I am one of the peoplethat you have created.
SPEAKER_01 (01:18):
I'm stealing that.
SPEAKER_00 (01:20):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (01:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I joke that I'm a border collie.
My spirit animal, if that sayingisn't offensive, I think it
might be, is a border colliebecause I just round up people
and I don't let anybody of theflock stray.
SPEAKER_00 (01:32):
It's funny how we met each other, and I think it's
serendipitous.
So it is.
SPEAKER_01 (01:36):
And I will tell you too, this week you should be
glad that the results were whatthey were.
SPEAKER_00 (01:41):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (01:42):
Because it has been a very rough week.
Oh, for me.
But better since last night.
Since yeah, the weekend hasbegun.
SPEAKER_00 (01:50):
We are about to go into a chapter of your life that
I know at least I believe, Idon't think you've talked a lot
about.
I don't know much about thischapter of your life.
SPEAKER_01 (02:01):
No, it feels long ago.
I've closed that chapter andmoved on.
So I don't talk about it.
Not because I won't talk aboutit.
It's just not that not that topof mind anymore.
SPEAKER_00 (02:12):
Yeah, because you're how many years out from it?
SPEAKER_01 (02:15):
I got separated a little over 10 years ago and
divorced a little over nineyears ago.
SPEAKER_00 (02:19):
So why on earth did you agree to sit down with me
and revisit this chapter of yourlife?
SPEAKER_01 (02:27):
It's a good question in addition to curating people.
I love to help people.
I love to give advice, sometimesunsolicited.
I can be a bit of a know it-all.
I've been calling myself adivorce whisperer because the
second you get divorced, allyour other friends who are
thinking of it or separated orwhatever will come to you and
ask for advice.
So I've served this purpose fora lot of people, and I'm happy
(02:49):
to do because it's important.
I I read that divorce is thesecond most stressful thing you
can go through after the deathof a spouse.
And I think there are manypeople who would argue that
divorce is more painful than thedeath of a spouse because
they're still here.
And especially if you have kids,you're still dealing with stuff.
So it's an incredibly stressfultime.
And if this can help somebody,I'd be very happy about that.
(03:12):
I will say it's a risk becausethe last thing I want to do is
hurt anybody by so I'm gonna trynot to air any dirty laundry,
but I especially don't want tohurt my kids or even my
ex-husband.
We don't talk often, but we'reon very good terms.
So anyway, I'm gonna be a littlebit careful about what I say.
SPEAKER_00 (03:30):
I think just even generalities is gonna help
people.
It didn't sound like you havealready helped people when your
own circle of friends that theycame to you for advice, maybe as
you were in the thick of it.
Yeah.
The mission of this podcast isjust to help other people feel
(03:50):
like they're not alone.
SPEAKER_01 (03:52):
It's so important.
I and I can't believe nobody'sdone this already.
Or if they have, I'm not awareof them.
Because I I will be referringeverybody to this from now on.
SPEAKER_00 (04:02):
So if we were to rewind the clock, maybe take us
back to how you met.
SPEAKER_01 (04:07):
I was 21.
He was 25.
First semester of graduateschool, I went straight after
undergrad.
He took a few years off.
And I had a college boyfriendthat I was on the rocks with.
We knew it was over, but wehadn't broken up.
And now we were trying to longdistance thing, which wasn't
going very well.
And it's the first day of gradschool, I walk in and I'm
looking around.
And when you start college, youlook around at all the cute
(04:29):
boys, they're everywhere.
Grad school's a littledifferent, a little older crowd,
a little nerdier crowd.
And I was looking around becauseI was living in a new city and I
was things weren't going greatwith a boyfriend.
And I looked around this entireclass that I was in, and there
were two cute guys.
And you were like, I picked thewrong grad school.
I know, but I kept my eye on thetwo cute guys, and over time I
(04:52):
decided that there was one thatwas cuter than the others.
I will distinctly remember twoclass periods in a row.
One of them, I ran into arestaurant on campus.
And by the way, this gradschool, we had class Monday
through Thursday, 6 to 10 p.m.
And we worked full-time duringthe day.
And I look back at that, I'mlike, how was that even
possible?
I don't even know.
But we would grab lunch at fastfood on campus before class
(05:13):
started at six.
And I happened to be in linebehind him, and I was so
overwhelmed.
I said, I didn't even do thehomework.
And just without a word, hehanded me his homework and let
me copy off of it.
And I just remember hishandwriting was so nice and neat
and tidy, and just the way hehad his name at the top right
corner of the paper and allthis.
I'm like, what a nice guy.
He's so sweet, he's so kind,he's so gentle, he's so quiet.
(05:34):
And then I think it was the verynext day we were on a break
during class, and he was out onthe balcony wearing a black
leather jacket.
This is before people wore blackleather jackets, smoking a
cigarette, which gave him thiskind of look that at the time
appealed.
And I will tell you, 27 yearslater, did not appeal at all.
And then he was telling a storyabout how he'd gotten a DUI and
(05:56):
spent the weekend in jail.
And I'm like, What he's a badboy.
I'm like, is he a good guy or abad boy?
And I was just intrigued.
SPEAKER_00 (06:04):
And you saw one story with the handwriting and
then a complete one eight withthe the letters.
SPEAKER_01 (06:10):
I was just like, Who is this guy?
I gotta figure him out.
So, anyway, long story short,over Thanksgiving that fall
semester, broke up with thecollege boyfriend, not because
of him, it just it was gonnahappen.
And last day of class inDecember, he and I went out on
our first date, and that waspretty much it.
I felt like I won because allthe other girls in that grad
(06:31):
school were also after him.
Oh, so the hunt.
I beat them.
I did, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:38):
So then what was the marriage like?
SPEAKER_01 (06:43):
It was good.
It was overall very good.
We're 23 years before we gotseparated.
We were married almost 24.
Largely good, I would say.
And he is a good man and a greatfather, and still care about
him, always will.
I think the problems we weren'tgreat at communicating, we
weren't great at fighting.
(07:04):
It was a this classic thingwhere you get annoyed but you
don't say anything, and you justbruise and bruise until the
little thing sets you off, andthen you have a screaming fight
that you don't resolve and youdon't talk to each other for
three days, and then you justpick up and act like
everything's normal.
So we did that because we justdidn't have the skills and we
were just young.
I got married at 24.
Oh he was 28.
Okay.
(07:24):
And also it was a differenttime.
People just were not asemotionally intelligent then as
they are now.
It was overall good.
Over time, there was definitelya power shift because when we
got married, he had the power inthe relationship.
I let him.
I don't know why, but I did.
Over time, that balance of powershifted a lot.
And the other thing I wanted tomention is the family that I
(07:45):
grew up in, and my parents arephenomenal people.
I describe them as stoicScandinavian Midwesterners.
Emotions are very pesky.
We don't like them.
Yeah.
Especially the quote, negativeones, especially, we just
pretend they don't exist.
We never show them.
Even the positive ones, yougotta don't be too happy.
(08:06):
So, this is what I grew up with.
Over time, I poisoned myself,basically, because I was mid-40s
by the time a therapist taughtme that anger is not bad.
In my brain, anger is bad.
And I thought my husband had ananger management problem because
guess what?
He got angry sometimes.
Can you believe it?
Isn't that unreasonable?
And I thought it was, and I wasso afraid of his anger because I
(08:29):
wasn't used to dealing withthat.
I never saw it growing up, thatI did everything I could to not
provoke it.
So I made myself small and Iswallowed down lots of things.
I'm still mad about things thathappened 25 years ago, which is
stupid, and that's my fault.
That you wish you would haveyeah, yeah.
It didn't feel safe to me bejust because I was so afraid of
his anger.
And I certainly didn't show myown because that would provoke
(08:52):
his.
Anyway, I've learned a lot sincethen, but over time that that's
just not helpful at all.
SPEAKER_00 (09:00):
So that's how you would describe the marriage.
SPEAKER_01 (09:05):
Oh overall, good, strong, happy, loving, healthy,
but an undercurrent of poorcommunication, squashing down
emotions.
And over time it just thingsjust got worse and worse.
And the smoking was an issuetoo.
If somebody tells you they'regonna quit smoking, you should
(09:26):
probably not believe them.
I learned that.
Yeah, it wasn't quite as cuteand charming.
SPEAKER_00 (09:30):
No, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:32):
We get away with a lot with with youth.
Yes.
Yeah.
With dating and with being thecute boy.
SPEAKER_00 (09:38):
Yes.
And so you had children?
SPEAKER_01 (09:42):
Yeah, we have two daughters.
We'd been married four years forthe first one and six or seven
years for the second one.
He was a great dad, veryinvolved, fun, funny, goofing
around.
We he got us involved in allAmerican soapbox derby, which is
this random thing that nobody'sever heard of.
It's old school, but they builtsoapbox derby cars, and the
(10:03):
girls they traveled all aroundthe eastern coast for six or
seven years competing.
And my girls were in the worldchampionships six times.
Oh my god.
Yeah, they both placed like onewas sixth in the bet in the
world, and the other was seventhin the world, and that would
have never happened without him.
Because first of all, I neverheard of it.
Second of all, I wouldn't havedone it.
SPEAKER_00 (10:22):
So I'm sure that's something special between them.
SPEAKER_01 (10:25):
Yeah, yeah, it was.
We have lots of good memorieslike that.
SPEAKER_00 (10:29):
You said good, happy, other positive
adjectives.
What happened?
SPEAKER_01 (10:38):
I will just say that he and I have very different
outlooks on money.
He he doesn't care about moneyso much.
I again, my family of origin whois wonderful, but the message I
learn about money is you need towork really hard for it, you
need to make a lot of it, youneed to save a lot of it, and
(10:58):
you should always constantly beworried that it's never enough.
So that's my viewpoint, which isnot healthy, by the way, working
on it.
But different.
Different.
And he had a 10-year-long periodwhere he was unable to, and to
his credit, this started duringthe Great Recession.
So a lot of people werestruggling.
(11:19):
And I owned a business then,which was great because I had a
lot of flexibility and I couldmake a lot of money.
And I did, and I supported thefamily for a decade.
And that caused a lot ofresentment because I felt like I
didn't have a full true partner.
(11:39):
And to be fair, he he wentgrocery shopping, he cooked
dinner every night.
Uh, the girls would do thedishes every night.
I felt like I was cheating.
I'm like, I'm the mom and I havenothing to do with dinner.
This feels wrong, but it's alsoawesome.
Yeah.
So I would just say a shortviewpoint is again, I poisoned
myself with the resentment thatI wasn't really able to convey.
(12:03):
And it turned into disdain, iswhat I called it in my brain.
And later I learned thatcontempt is the word that they
use in like psychology.
And once a relationship gets tothe contempt stage, it's very
difficult to save it.
SPEAKER_02 (12:14):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (12:15):
And I also want to point out if you had asked me
right after the divorce, quoteunquote, whose fault is it?
What happened?
I would have been all fingerspointing at him and been able to
do a litany of all the things hedid wrong.
But with time and distance andtherapy and reflection, I'm
equally to blame.
And just not understandingemotions and not knowing how to
(12:36):
manage my mind and not havingthe courage to communicate
clearly.
I mean, things could have been alot different.
And by the way, we went throughseven years of marriage
counseling.
Oh, which was super helpful andworked.
It did work.
And and we learned a ton throughthat.
And our skills, even goingthrough the divorce process,
thank God we went through thatbecause we finally felt safe to
(12:57):
talk to each other and not holdin the anger and all that.
We got there.
It was just too little, toolate.
SPEAKER_00 (13:02):
It's interesting that although the therapy didn't
quote unquote save the marriage,it did give you tools to go
through the divorce process.
SPEAKER_01 (13:13):
For sure.
And I mean, today I would callus friends.
I mean, he texted me somethingfunny the other day, which is
unusual.
We don't communicate that often.
But um, I don't think we had wenot learned those skills and
gone through the therapy.
SPEAKER_00 (13:27):
As much as you feel comfortable, how did the D-word
I was reflecting on this and Ihad almost forgotten I had
brought it up when the girlswere little one time, and then
we shoved it under the rug witheverything else, very lumpy rug,
and didn't talk about it again.
SPEAKER_01 (13:46):
And I brought it up maybe a year before we actually
did divorce.
And so I he never brought it up.
I brought it up a couple times.
My parents, by the way, weremarried 50 years before my dad
died.
His parents were married 65years before his dad died.
We both went in this, obviouslythinking this was forever.
It was a huge mindset shift.
(14:08):
Probably five years before wesplit.
The hypnotherapist I had thetime, the same one who taught me
that anger was not bad.
It was a normal human emotionand helps you set boundaries and
lets you know what boundariesare being violated.
Anyway, this interesting.
Yes, this uh hypnotherapist, andI was mid-40s by then, by the
way.
So it feels a little late tolearn that.
But this hypnotherapist kepttake to this place and having me
(14:33):
think and repeat um, let me facewhat I need to face.
And I was like, oh God, no,because I knew what I needed to
face, because I was not happyand I wanted to go.
Good girls don't do that.
And that's not what we do in myfamily.
He was a good guy.
So I ended up switchingtherapists because I was like, I
(14:53):
can't face what I need to face.
And then I had another therapistwho asked me, What does your
future look like for you?
And at this point, my oldestdaughter was a freshman in
college, the youngest was asophomore in high school.
So I had two and a half yearsuntil she left for college.
My my rational mind and my gutwere fighting constantly.
SPEAKER_00 (15:15):
They were in opposition with each other.
SPEAKER_01 (15:17):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (15:18):
What was one side saying versus the other?
SPEAKER_01 (15:20):
So my rational mind was like, he is such a good man
who I love, who is a great dad,and we have our family, and we
have our home, and we have ourkids, and I love my in-laws, and
he loves my parents, and we livein this great neighborhood.
Things are so good, and this Ineed to stay.
(15:42):
And my gut was just gettinglouder and louder.
But your gut is just gonna keepgetting louder and louder until
you listen to it.
SPEAKER_00 (15:49):
And what was your gut saying?
SPEAKER_01 (15:51):
Get out.
unknown (15:53):
Get out.
SPEAKER_01 (15:55):
It was saying in a creepy way.
It was saying, it wasn't even ina creepy way.
It was like, leave, there'smore.
I I was just increasinglyunhappy.
And my therapist said, What doesthe future look like for you?
And I thought about it and Isaid, Oh, okay, I can see
calendar pages in front of mefor the next two and a half
years, and they're black,they're just dark and black.
(16:17):
And then I kept thinking aboutmy future.
And I'd owned a business at thatpoint for 14 years, lived in the
same house for 23 years, beenmarried to the same man for 24
years, whatever it was.
My numbers might be a littleoff.
And I was 47, 48 at the time.
And I just pictured myselftrudging forward in the same
house, married to the same man,owning the same business, doing
(16:39):
the same job, trudging forwardtill I toppled into the grave.
That was the image in my head.
Because I was 40, I guess 47 atthe point.
I'm like, I'm old.
I'm over the hill.
It's all downhill from here.
I've done all the good stuff.
And I just should accept myfate.
And this is the rest of my life.
I think I was probably verydepressed and didn't realize it.
(17:02):
But this conversation with atherapist about that really made
me realize oh, holy shit, thisis not right.
This is not good.
The gut just keeps gettinglouder.
And I thought, I can't possiblyleave until my youngest
daughter's in college.
So that's two and a half years.
So I'll just get through thoseblack calendar pages and keep
trudging towards the grave untilshe goes to college.
(17:23):
And so that was the first stepof me accepting, okay, I do want
to do this, which was a hugestep, many years in the making.
Talking to my therapist, shesaid, this isn't fair to him at
all, which I had not thought of.
She's like, he thinks you have afuture.
He doesn't know you have thistimeline.
It's really not fair.
And that was in the back of myhead, and I was thinking about
(17:45):
that.
How did you react to that?
Oh, I felt terribly guilty.
unknown (17:49):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (17:49):
And yet, in a way, I was happy too because it was a
get out of jail free card.
She was like, my therapist isgiving me permission to pull the
cord now.
Now instead of waiting.
I'm all doctor's orders, right?
I think that was early in the2014.
And I still didn't take anyaction until I think it was the
(18:11):
end of May.
He made a decision and didsomething in secret that I very
much disagreed with.
I was very upset.
And I ended up making a commentone day.
I said, You have no idea howhard I'm trying to stay married
to you.
Which I think he knew at acertain level because we'd had
some other conversations.
But his eyes just got big and hethought about it and he said,
(18:33):
Well, if you don't want me here,I don't want to be here.
And the timing worked out.
The youngest daughter spent allsummer as camp counselor.
She was about to leave for thesummer.
He moved out on June 5th.
He went to a hotel.
unknown (18:47):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (18:48):
And so she the daughter, she was gone.
SPEAKER_01 (18:51):
No, no, she was gone.
I want to tell you about whathappened during this separation
because it was reallyinteresting.
He approached me.
He had read about this thingcalled a structured separation,
which I had never heard of.
And apparently the way it works,or at least what I remember, is
live separately.
You each have your owntherapist.
You also have your couple'scounselor you go to.
(19:13):
And then one day a week, youeither spend the week or an
evening or whatever together,and you date and you go to have
fun and try and remember what itwas you like about each other.
And you also write reflectionsback and forth to each other.
He asked me if I would considerthat.
And I said, Of course.
Again, I don't take this lightlywith this seven years of
(19:35):
counseling and the parents beingmarried so long and all that.
So I said, Yeah, let's do it.
And so for four or five weeks,we did that.
We spent a weekend down inColumbus that he had planned out
for us whitewater rafting andrunning in a 5K and restaurants.
He brought me gifts.
It's like he was full courtpress courting me.
(19:57):
And we had a blast and I lovedit.
And he wrote these long lettersto me.
The first one was nine pages.
And I think he attached somearticles and had some quotes and
stuff in it too.
And I had almost forgotten aboutthis.
But because I knew I was doingthis podcast, I went back and
reread my journals from 2014 and2015.
Yeah, that wasn't very fun atall.
(20:18):
But it was necessary because Ihave these backwards-looking
rose-colored glasses.
I had it easy.
It wasn't, it was my decision.
So it was much easier than a lotof other people and no big deal.
And in rereading my journal, Iwas like, oh no, I think I again
tamped it down because we don'tlike those pesky emotions.
So I forgot it.
But the truth is, we wrote theseletters back and forth, and I
(20:40):
have them.
So now I know exactly what mindframe he was in, exactly what
mind frame I was in.
And I was stunned at the time,and I continue to be stunned now
by how emotionally intelligentwe were with each other, just
going back and forth and backand forth.
And after doing this for four,five, six weeks and having a
great time, he's one of hisreflections he wrote to me, he
(21:02):
said, I feel that you still havea pull to a different life.
And I wrote back and I said,Yeah, I do, because this is
wonderful, but this is not reallife.
We can't continue to do thisindefinitely.
I the little taste of freedom Ihad, I just wanted more.
So that's when we decided todivorce.
SPEAKER_00 (21:24):
I just want to go back to something you said at
the very beginning.
You you mentioned a quote,divorce is maybe the second most
traumatic thing one can gothrough.
And some might argue the mosttraumatic, given the
circumstances of it.
And then I connect that back toyou going through your journals
(21:44):
and rereading kind of those rawemotions that you kept in real
time.
And even though you wanted it,you felt pulled in another
direction, it was still the mosttraumatic thing.
SPEAKER_01 (22:00):
That you've been through.
Absolutely.
Because I was tearing our familyapart.
Yep.
Here's where I'm gonna getchoked up.
SPEAKER_00 (22:12):
That's okay.
Those feelings are okay.
Yeah.
But you felt pulled to somethingelse.
Yeah.
What was on the other side ofthat pull for you?
SPEAKER_01 (22:24):
Freedom.
I guess part of it is I'd feltso responsible for the whole
family, for everything.
SPEAKER_00 (22:30):
Yeah, you were carrying a huge amount of
responsibility.
SPEAKER_01 (22:33):
Yeah, and I owned a business and I felt responsible
for my 12 employees, theirlivelihoods and their families
and their incomes.
So I found myself by 2015.
I'd sold my business.
I was divorced.
I'd had one child who was goingto be left for one year in the
house before she went tocollege.
I just could start over andrecreate myself.
(22:56):
And I bought a townhouse, whichis exactly what I wanted in this
particular part of town andunit.
Got it, decorated it however thehell I wanted, made new friends,
learned new hobbies, got a newjob.
And not all at once.
It wasn't all this easy, but thepull was to freedom.
(23:16):
And if I'm really honest, it wasto another partner who I've also
since found.
I had a whole lot of fun lookingfor him.
Dating, I found dating to bevery fun.
I'm an extrovert and I almostmet my partner too soon.
I would think I would haveenjoyed dating a little bit
longer.
SPEAKER_00 (23:35):
Yep.
But everything happens for areason.
If we could maybe go back to theactual divorce process, sure.
What did you have to do or getin order or learn to prepare you
for this process?
SPEAKER_01 (23:50):
I don't think there was that much.
It feels like there should be alot, but I already had, I was in
charge of the finances for thefamily.
So I already had all thatinformation.
I did go to friends of mine whowere divorced and use them as my
own personal divorce whisperer.
So I got a lot of advice and Igot a lot of referrals to
lawyers.
(24:10):
And I went and consulted with acouple of lawyers, I think
before he and I even talked.
I don't really remember thetimeline now, but I think I was
just checking out how does thiswork?
Yeah.
Just to learn about it.
I I don't think I did a wholelot of prep.
I think once we made thedecision, I just dived in.
SPEAKER_00 (24:27):
I certainly don't want to put words in your mouth,
but it sounds like the actualdivorce process wasn't all that
difficult.
SPEAKER_01 (24:35):
I remember it as not being a big deal at all.
Of course, rereading thejournals was more of a big deal
than I thought.
But it wasn't.
The 2014, the year we gotseparated, that was painful and
awful.
And I didn't even talk abouttelling our girls about it.
That was by far the worst part.
But I'll really start crying.
The the separation was thehardest part because that's when
your life changes.
That person's no longer there.
(24:56):
And you're not talking to themevery day and sharing the inside
jokes and all that.
And you got to tell people andthe kids and all that stuff.
By the time the divorce happeneda year later, all that was
normalized.
The fact that a judge signed apiece of paper on a certain day
didn't really change anything.
Fun fact my husband moved out onJune 5th of 2014.
(25:18):
So that's the day we officiallygot separated.
The judge signed the divorcepapers on June 5th, 2015.
Oh, but wait, there's more.
And my first date with mycurrent partner was June 5th,
2016.
SPEAKER_00 (25:30):
Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_01 (25:30):
Isn't that wild?
That is what I was just totalcoincidence.
SPEAKER_00 (25:33):
Let me also say my wild story is that my ex dropped
the quote unquote, I'm unhappybomb on me Labor Day weekend of
2022.
And I got the final divorcepaper back from the judge, Labor
Day weekend of 2024.
SPEAKER_01 (25:55):
Okay, so now you need something really happy to
happen on Labor Day weekend.
So it becomes a good day foryou.
SPEAKER_00 (26:00):
Yes, it's a holiday weekend.
SPEAKER_01 (26:02):
I know you don't want it to be ruined.
SPEAKER_00 (26:04):
Yeah, no.
So it doesn't sound like theactual process was that
strenuous, but you still needthe legal repute representation.
Yeah.
What did that look like?
SPEAKER_01 (26:14):
We each had our own lawyer, and I had gotten
referrals from a couple of mydivorced friends and met with a
couple and found that some ofthem charge eye-popping dollars,
and others are just what's anarm instead of an arm and a leg.
So I've I love my lawyer.
Her name is Jessica Reese Fagan.
She actually got married whilewe were going through this.
And I'm like, your husband is avery brave man to marry you.
(26:36):
And she said, Oh no, you he cando no wrong because I hear all
the terrible stories, what allthe other husbands do.
So I appreciate him so much.
But she was fantastic.
My ex-husband lawyer waspregnant, which I don't think he
knew.
She ended up having a baby inthe middle of it.
So she took three months off.
So anyway, process could havebeen done in nine months, but it
took a year, but it was fine.
And at the end, he and I did thefinal negotiations.
(26:59):
I remember what it was like sixo'clock on some Saturday
morning.
We were on the phone.
We had a shared Google sheet.
We were going back and forth,just negotiating with each
other, plugging in differentnumbers.
It was like three hours.
But at the end, we agreed.
We sent it to both of ourlawyers and later we compared
notes.
Both of our lawyers said, Yeah,I think I could have done better
for you.
And we actually laughed about itbecause we're like, we must have
(27:20):
done a pretty good job.
This must have been pretty fair.
But that was really nicebecause, first of all, it saved
us a lot of money.
And we both felt good about itbecause we did it together, not
through these third parties.
And we had agreed up front thatwe were not going to get into
this ridiculous thing whereyou're spending tons of money on
lawyers to fight over stuff.
So the lawyer's getting themoney.
(27:40):
I'd rather quote lose and havehim get the money because then
my kids have a chance at some ofthe money over the lawyer
getting the money.
So at the end of it all, didn'tend up spending all that much
money on lawyers, which wasreally good.
SPEAKER_00 (27:53):
It it sounds like uh you you had a shared goal of
what that end was fair to theboth of you.
Yeah.
And then just how you got therelittle by little.
SPEAKER_01 (28:04):
I didn't want to screw him.
He didn't want to screw me.
We wanted to remain on goodterms.
And again, it's all about ourkids.
I know this is going to bedifficult.
SPEAKER_00 (28:13):
I think it's also going to be helpful to others.
To the extent you feelcomfortable, what can you share
about having to share this newswith the family, with your
daughters?
SPEAKER_01 (28:26):
I I do think people will want to hear this because
this is the worst part by far.
And I'm already crying.
SPEAKER_00 (28:33):
From me talking with so many other people, I don't
have kids, but it does soundlike one of those long poles in
the tent that keep one in amarriage, also because Oh, for
sure.
You don't you don't want to hurtyour kids.
SPEAKER_01 (28:48):
Good parents don't hurt their kids.
I do want to get through thisbecause it is important for
people to know.
I'll try and keep it short.
Me being me, I planned way aheadand I wrote a little speech.
All the professionals say thetwo of you do it together, and
you don't say whose idea it was,and you'd be your team and all
(29:09):
this.
He was not playing ball withthat.
And he said, No, you it's yourdecision.
You need to tell them.
And he was with me.
And honestly, I was okay withthat because they're smart, they
knew the dynamic, they wouldknow, they'd figure it out.
We could tell them, oh, mom anddad both decided this together.
They would see right throughthat.
And this way I could control thenarrative a little bit.
(29:30):
So I actually have friends whohave a lake house.
I remember I went up to theirlake house for like overnight
and just by myself and sat ontheir dock and wrote out my
little speech.
The difficult part was theyoungest was still, she was 16.
She was still being a campcounselor.
The oldest one was 19.
She was it had spent the summertaking college classes.
(29:51):
And I had forgotten this till Ireread my journal.
I went back and forth because Iwas freaking out about this.
She was in um California goingto college, living by herself.
And I'm like, do I fly outthere?
Do we fly her home?
My parents live two hours away.
Do we tell my parents?
We hadn't told yet, because thegirls need to be the first to
know.
Do we tell them and have themdrive up?
(30:13):
So she's not alone.
What do we do?
And I don't remember how wedecided, but we FaceTimed her,
which is probably not ideal.
My husband was in the room and Ihad passed the phone to him
after.
But I went through my littlespeech.
I was crying.
Yeah.
And she, 19, she was totallystoic.
(30:34):
She was totally fine.
She was like, Mom, stop crying.
I'm a psychology major.
So it's not like I haven'tanticipated this.
I mean, it was a shortconversation and she seemed
fine.
I was like, well, that wasalmost too good to be true.
And it was too good to be truebecause a few weeks later, she
called in the middle of thenight, left a voicemail because
I didn't wake up, sobbingbecause her favorite DJ from the
(30:55):
radio was getting divorced fromhis wife.
And she's very upset about that.
And I called her back and I waslike, I'm not a psychology
major, but I don't think that'swhat you're upset about.
She she was the easy one,although who knows what's
inside.
The youngest came back from campand we sat her down and I went
(31:17):
through my speech.
Didn't cry this time in the sameroom.
X was in the same room too.
And she just went up to her roomand shut the door.
And he went up a little whilelater.
And she was crying.
I don't remember if I went upthere or not, but she didn't
(31:37):
talk to me for days.
It might have been weeks.
She didn't talk to me, which wasreally hard.
But I I think she told himeventually.
And he told me is one of theproblems was I didn't apologize.
And I didn't.
I wrote this whole speech out.
I forgot the apology part.
(31:58):
And she had a few other concernstoo that she told him, and then
him told me.
And I sat down with her and wetalked and we went over it.
And it was okay.
She obviously started talking tome again.
She ended up living with me.
He moved out, so she had to talkto me.
But it was okay.
It was an adjustment.
I just remember this one time.
(32:19):
He used to cook for us everynight because he's a good cook.
He loves to cook.
I hate to cook.
And my daughter hates to cook.
And so we were on our own onenight and we looked in this
cookbook we had for these likechicken fingers, these fried
chicken things, and we made it.
And it took forever.
This is why I hate cooking.
And we made them and I we tookour first bite and they were so
freaking delicious.
(32:39):
And we just looked at each otherand smiled, and we were like, We
did it.
Look at what we did.
I don't think we ever made itagain.
But it worked out.
And I won't say that it didn'tdamage her or both of them.
If you really want to laugh, mytwo daughters who've both gone
through grad school combinedhave four degrees in psychology.
SPEAKER_02 (32:58):
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (32:59):
And one in human development.
Okay.
And they both work in behavioralhealth.
So I'm sure it's purecoincidence.
That said, they're the mostemotionally intelligent people I
know.
And it's phenomenal.
My oldest daughter is a marriageand family therapist.
SPEAKER_00 (33:16):
I can only assume that this experience gives her
real life credibility to helpother people.
SPEAKER_01 (33:25):
I think so.
I go to her for advice all thetime.
She's incredible.
And the youngest as well.
She's the human development anddouble psychology major.
So she she works with kids.
She's the one who was more upsetwith me.
And she had to live through it.
Her sister was off in collegeand didn't see as many changes.
But the youngest gave me thegreatest gift in the world
(33:45):
probably five years later, whenin she was early 20s.
Just one day she said, I'm notmad at either of you anymore.
She said, I've stopped seeingyou guys as my parents, and I
see you as adults that have yourown issues.
And I'm like, Yes, that's true.
And it it felt like forgiveness.
SPEAKER_00 (34:05):
Yeah.
So the gift of forgiveness.
Yeah.
That you guys are, I recognizethat my parents are people also.
Yes, they're humans.
And they're imperfect.
SPEAKER_01 (34:15):
Yes, absolutely.
I will say though, the hardthing is when you split and
you've got kids, you see themhalf as often, even if they're
adults.
So holidays, that firstThanksgiving and the first
Christmas, where I did not seemy children.
My oldest daughter, thetherapist, has two kids.
I actually have two grandbabies.
(34:37):
And the first was born onThanksgiving, and my ex-husband
got Thanksgiving with her.
So he was in California with herwhile she was very pregnant, at
the hospital, while she gavebirth, while they came home,
having Thanksgiving dinner.
He was with her and I was not.
And I was supposed to go atChristmas and I caught COVID.
So I did not get to meet mygranddaughter until she was two
(35:00):
months old after the entire restof the family did.
Still sucks.
Thank you for sharing that.
It that was the worst part.
But for anybody out there, youjust handle it as best you can
and get them help too.
Our family spent a lot of moneyon therapy for everybody.
Just try and do it asrespectfully as you can and pay
(35:22):
attention to their needs.
They should come through it.
And certainly, fear of that isnot a reason to stay in an
unhealthy marriage.
Because what example are yougiving them?
If my daughters were in mymarriage, I would have told them
to leave.
SPEAKER_00 (35:35):
Yeah.
So you're just living by theadvice that you would give to a
friend, a family or daughter.
You were so many things in yourmarriage: mom, breadwinner,
wife.
What tools do you utilize to getthrough the worst?
SPEAKER_01 (35:55):
I did have a therapist, did a lot of
journaling as discussed.
I think just a lot of talking.
I process things throughtalking.
And my sister's really my bestfriend.
Oh, I had didn't mention thiseither.
My sister went through a divorceat the same time.
Speaking of the June 5th date,yeah, her husband moved out the
(36:16):
same week of June in 2014 asmine.
Yeah.
Her her divorce was finalizedthe end of that year.
Hers took six months, mine tooka year.
We had a lot in common and a lotof phone calls.
I will also say, too, it was nother choice to end her marriage.
And the issues were somewhatsimilar.
She'd been a stay-at-home momand the the money and the
(36:37):
resentment.
And it was very helpful for meto hear her side of the story
because a lot of her feelingswere what my soon-to-be
ex-husband was feeling.
And it gave me more empathy toher soon-to-be-ex because he was
in the same shoes as me.
So it was just this weirdsituation.
But it it was really helpful forher and me.
(36:57):
We probably talked on the phoneevery day.
And when I answered the phoneand she was calling me, she was
probably crying 50% of the timeor more.
I will say it's a lot harder toget divorced when it's not your
decision, just from what I'veseen.
The one gift you get is youdon't get the guilt.
If you're the one who pulled theplug, it might be easier in some
ways because it's what you want,but you also get the guilt.
(37:20):
And you're the bad guy.
And I very much was, accordingto his family.
For a while, most of them comearound.
But you gotta prepare yourselfthat people are gonna be mad at
you and not gonna like you, andyou're gonna lose friends and
family, because I did.
SPEAKER_00 (37:35):
And so it sounds like that freaky Friday
situation with your sisterhelped not only deepen your
relationship with her, but alsoum maybe a deeper sense of
empathy towards what yourhusband was at the time
experiencing.
SPEAKER_01 (37:52):
For sure.
Because it's a rejection.
She was rejected.
I rejected him, and I was ableto see and hear the impact.
Even if he couldn't express itto me, I had a better
understanding of what he wasprobably going through.
SPEAKER_00 (38:06):
And I have to imagine that empathy then
trickled down to your girlsalso.
SPEAKER_01 (38:11):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_00 (38:13):
And and how you wanted this quote unquote new
family to come out on the otherside of this.
SPEAKER_01 (38:19):
Yes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (38:20):
Through the journaling that you kept and now
going back through it.
What insights or values becamecrystal clear for you as a
result of this process?
SPEAKER_01 (38:34):
The most obvious would be independence and
freedom.
I've always been a veryindependent person, almost to a
fault, because I've had afantastic partner now for over
eight years.
I will not get married.
We don't mix our money.
And I'm really almost tooindependent, I think, sometimes.
But yeah, independence andfreedom are big ones.
(38:57):
Very much valuing emotionalintelligence and communication.
All this therapy does pay off.
And second go-rounds, again, nottrying to encourage divorce, but
for people thinking about it,second go-rounds, second
relationships, as long as you dothe work, can be so good.
Uh, give an example.
My current partner, when westarted dating, we were a few
(39:19):
months in, he said, Oh, by theway, let me tell you what my
triggers are.
And he told me what his triggerswere.
And I was like, wait, you can dothat?
I wasn't even sure what minewere, but I thought about it and
I told him what my triggerswere.
And now we don't step on eachother's triggers.
If we don't agree on something,get this.
We talk about it and we listento each other and we adjust our
(39:40):
behavior.
Isn't that mind-blowing that youcan do that?
It is.
And honestly, the sad thing is,had I had these skills, had my
ex-husband and I had theseskills when we were in our 20s,
we'd probably still be marriedtoday.
But we did not have thoseskills.
SPEAKER_00 (39:54):
So your values, independence, autonomy, freedom.
What kind of became yournon-negotiables as you were
looking for your next partner?
SPEAKER_01 (40:04):
That's a great question.
I know secrets.
Obviously, everybody deservesprivacy, but I had a therapist
say once it's secrets sickenpeople, which I think is true.
And secrets put distance betweenpeople.
If you are with the right personthat you can be very vulnerable
and be yourself with and beauthentic, there's no need for
secrets.
And I have that now.
Walking on eggshells, I willnever walk on eggshells.
(40:27):
Again, same.
Financially supporting someone,there's the cold bitchy one, but
financially supporting someonejust does not work for me.
It's not nice, but that's wherewe are.
And I would say addiction.
I won't do addiction or peoplewho don't take care of their
health.
SPEAKER_00 (40:46):
Let's talk about health.
When you were going throughthis, how did you maintain or
prioritize your health andwellness?
SPEAKER_01 (40:58):
One way to answer that is the magic combination of
Zoloft and Xanax.
Better living through chemistry,true fact, for short periods of
time.
I'm I've been off that stuff fora very long time.
And I think going through thisdivorce process, I think
everybody probably thought I wasa cold-hearted bitch because I
never cried.
(41:19):
I thought, oh, I must be acold-hearted bitch.
But I got off Xanax or Zoloft.
I got off Zoloft, and as we haveshown today, I cry all the time
now.
So be careful.
That stuff will dampen all youremotions, even the positive
ones.
But besides the better livingthrough chemistry on a temporary
basis to get through, I'vealways had a personal trainer.
So working out, I did lose, if Iremember, 26 pounds in five
(41:43):
months.
Now, I did that because I knew Iwas going to be dating.
And I will also say, sadly, thatweight and more is all back, but
was eating really healthy,walking a lot.
I love to go on walks withfriends and just talk with
friends.
It's like physical therapy andemotional therapy at the same
time.
SPEAKER_00 (41:59):
Walk and talks are powerful.
SPEAKER_01 (42:00):
Yes.
And I had therapists, I had mysister.
I still have all these thingstoday.
I still do all these thingstoday.
And I've since learned about thepower of not just addressing
anxiety and depression and stuffwith your brain, but also your
body.
So I've recently been gettinginto more embodiment and somatic
stuff and like sound healing.
(42:22):
And I love a good sound bath.
I had my first one two monthsago, and I oh, I'm hooked now.
Just a lot of self-care.
And when you're going through adivorce, the extreme version of
self-care.
SPEAKER_00 (42:36):
I was just listening to a podcast that you shared,
and they called it it's time forradical self-care.
I loved that phrase.
When I was going through justthe muck of it, I was
temporarily living in Floridawith my mom and my stepdad at
their house.
And I gave myself permission togo for a walk on the beach in
(43:02):
the middle of the afternoon tosleep in.
SPEAKER_01 (43:05):
Was this okay?
Was this radical?
Yeah, you know what?
It sounds like exactly what youshould have been doing.
SPEAKER_00 (43:10):
It is for my type A achiever person.
I understand.
SPEAKER_01 (43:13):
I'm the same way.
SPEAKER_00 (43:14):
Yeah.
To just to have permission toinvite my friends down,
different groups of friends, andspend time with them, to binge
watch shows with my mom.
I'm a health and wellness coach,and so eating healthfully is so
important to me.
Uh, I didn't go too far off therails on that, but it was like
permission just to sleep,connect, and laugh.
SPEAKER_01 (43:37):
And listening to your body and what does my body
need right now?
That that has been a new thingfor me.
Because, like you, I'm very typeA and I'm like, no, but I got a
list.
I plan to do these three thingstonight, and I've finally gotten
to where I'm like, it's okay.
I don't have to do them rightnow.
My body is telling me I needthis or that.
I'm trying to listen more.
SPEAKER_00 (43:56):
So you're several years out from.
This now.
And you've done all thistherapy, a great relationship
with your daughters now.
What would this uh Stacy say tothat Stacy who was in the throes
of it?
SPEAKER_01 (44:15):
If I had to go back to like my lowest moment, what I
would tell myself is this is theright thing to do.
It can be very painful, but itis the right thing to do.
It will 100% be worth it.
And a whole new wonderful lifeis awaiting me on the other
side.
Yeah, I the pages on thecalendar are no longer black.
I'm no longer trudging forward,waiting to topple into the
(44:38):
grave.
When I was 47, 48, I thought mylife was over.
I thought my sex life was over.
I am now turning 58 in threedays, and I'm here to tell you
my life is not over.
My sex life is not over.
I've met so many people, I'vedone so many new things, I've
gotten new jobs, new friends,new hobbies.
No, no ruts.
(44:58):
There are no ruts in my life.
There's just a lot of noveltyand fun and adventure.
I don't think that would havehappened.
I honestly going through allthis, I feel like anything's
available to me.
I feel like I can do anything.
I feel very powerful, veryconfident.
Um, I actually feel younger thanI did at fifty almost 58.
(45:19):
I feel younger than I did at 48,which is crazy.
And what do you think that isattributable to?
I think it's mindset.
I think again, you're in thesame house, doing the same
thing, in the routine, nothingchanges, and just everything's
new.
Where I live to what I do for aliving to the people I hang out
(45:41):
with.
I really feel like the world ismy oyster.
SPEAKER_00 (45:45):
Yeah, when I talk to others, it didn't really hit me.
And then someone said you get asecond chance at life.
And when I heard that, I waslike, Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (45:55):
You can reinvent yourself if you want.
SPEAKER_00 (45:57):
You can do whatever you want.
Yeah.
The word reinvent absolutelyeither reinvent or go back to
who you were.
SPEAKER_01 (46:08):
Yes, because maybe you were not really that person
when you were married.
Maybe you took a little detourthere for a while.
So come back to yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (46:15):
And maybe you shape shifted yourself to in a box.
SPEAKER_01 (46:20):
Everybody's shape shifts around to be in a
relationship to some extent.
But yeah, you can rediscover whoyou really are.
SPEAKER_00 (46:27):
So as it relates to tools and resources that helped
you get through this, what booksor articles or written work or
quotes or post-its, whatever itwas, what did you find
especially helpful?
SPEAKER_01 (46:40):
I know I did a ton of reading and a ton of
research.
The only thing I remember is onebook.
And the title is Too Good toLeave, Too Bad to Stay, which
really described my position.
I remember buying the book andkind of hiding it as I read it
around the house because Ididn't want anybody to see me
reading it.
I don't remember that itactually helped me because at
the end I was, yeah, I stillthink it's too good to leave,
(47:02):
too bad to stay.
But I wanted to mention thatbook because it might help other
people.
They might see something in it.
SPEAKER_00 (47:09):
And then what other music or chants or mantras they
helped you through this time?
SPEAKER_01 (47:17):
The one thing that comes to mind is saying that I
had tattooed on my back.
My sister and I, our firstdivorce Thanksgiving, neither
one of us had our kids.
So we were together and wepretended it wasn't
Thanksgiving, and we went andgot tattoos on the our
shoulders.
And the one I chose was SheBelieved She Could, so she did.
SPEAKER_00 (47:36):
Oh, I love that.
SPEAKER_01 (47:38):
Isn't it great?
That is like the power anthemright there.
She believed she could, so shedid.
So yeah, I have it on myshoulder forever now.
SPEAKER_00 (47:46):
Maybe that's the title of this podcast episode.
Okay.
Sure, whatever.
Whatever you think.
So, what do you want people totake away from hearing your
story?
SPEAKER_01 (47:59):
I want people to really know that there is life
on the other side.
I've talked to so many friendsand my sisters, seeing them
being distraught, just life isover, I don't want to live
distraught.
And it takes time and it takeswork.
It's not easy, but I've seenmultiple people go to being
gloriously happy.
(48:20):
If you're in the distraughtphase, just know that it won't
last.
And if you're sitting in it andruminating and being bitter, not
trying to get better, it mightlast.
But if you're doing the work andtrying to practice some
gratitude and talking to friendsand getting some help, you
absolutely can become happierthan probably you ever thought
(48:41):
you could be and happier thanyou were before.
SPEAKER_00 (48:44):
Yeah.
I relate to that because somedays are just about survival.
Yeah.
I remember those days.
Yeah.
And some days are only like zeropoint zero one percent better
than the day prior, but it'sstill a little bit better.
Yeah.
You add that up over time.
(49:05):
It adds up to a lot.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Thanks for listening to Bitteror Better, where we turn
heartbreak into healing andsurvival into strength.
As Brene Brown says,vulnerability is the last thing
we want to show, but the firstthing we look for in others.
That's what this is all about.
Real people showing up, sharingtheir stories, and reminding the
(49:27):
rest of us that we're not alittle bit.
If this episode resonates withyou, share it with someone who
might need to hear it too.
And remember, you have a choice.
See you next time.
Real stories, real people, real
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