June 11, 2026 • 40 mins
Isolation is a silent profit leak for your mental health when going through a major life upheaval. For men especially, the cultural pressure to suppress emotion during a crisis creates a heavy burden that delays actual recovery. Host Abby England sits down with old college friend Matt to look past the surface of standard coping mechanisms and dive into what it actually takes for men to process the reality of a broken marriage.
We sit down to discuss the hidden emotional toll of marital separation on men who feel societal pressure to stay strong. Matt opens up about the specific moment he realized keeping a tough exterior was actively hurting his recovery, the unique challenge of a simultaneous layoff and marital separation, and the shift from isolating himself to finding comfort in community. He shares a unique philosophy on navigating the stages of grief, managing the financial reality of dropping to a single income, and the unexpected boost to his self-confidence that came from reclaiming his personal time.
The hard truth about this process is that the social landscape changes drastically in adulthood, making it incredibly difficult to maintain a reliable support network when your world flips upside down. True resilience requires the conscious, uncomfortable choice to lean on others, seek professional therapy, and allow yourself to be vulnerable, even when everything in your conditioning tells you to handle it alone. Viewers will walk away with a renewed understanding of the value of raw honesty and a template for how to rebuild their lives from the ground up after a severe personal betrayal.
If you care about emotional resilience, male mental health, and navigating life transitions with authenticity, you’ll get a lot from this conversation. Subscribe to the channel and share this episode with someone who needs to hear they aren't alone in the trenches. What was the exact moment or realization that finally convinced you to let your guard down and ask for help? Let us know in the comments below.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome to Bitter or Better, real stories of divorce
and resilience, the podcast thatgets real about the messy middle
of divorce and what it takes tocome out stronger on the other
side.
I'm your host, Abby England,marketer, national board
certified health and wellnesscoach, and author of the
upcoming book, Bitter or Better.
And I've personally earned mydivorce Kepler.
(00:23):
This podcast isn't legal advice.
It isn't tips and tricks anddon't forget and hacks and
output.
There's plenty of other podcastsout there, interviewing lawyers,
therapists, accountants, allsorts of divorce dietests.
This podcast is raw, realconversations with everyday
people who have jobs, kids,responsibilities, commitments,
(00:46):
and yet they've weathered theheartbreak, rebuilt their lives,
and found unexpected strengthalong the way.
Because while divorce can breakyou, it can also make you
better.
You are not alone.
Let's hear someone else's storyand see what resonates.
SPEAKER_03 (01:01):
I'm here on site in the Western time zone.
Um I don't love it.
I gotta say, I don't love wakingup feeling behind.
SPEAKER_00 (01:10):
You're wrong.
SPEAKER_03 (01:11):
I know until the phone.
No.
But like at nine o'clock here,it's already noon back home, and
I'm like, the day's over.
SPEAKER_00 (01:17):
And I'm drinking coffee and football's on, and
it's amazing.
SPEAKER_03 (01:21):
That's fair.
Yeah, you wake up to footballversus like having to mill
around for a little bit.
SPEAKER_00 (01:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (01:28):
So we are old friends going back to college.
SPEAKER_00 (01:32):
Go way back.
SPEAKER_03 (01:33):
We got some stories to share that will stay in the
vault.
SPEAKER_00 (01:36):
Not sure if I remember.
SPEAKER_03 (01:40):
I start this podcast by asking people why on earth
they would want to maybe notwant to, but they're willing to
go back into this chapter oftheir lives that was deeply
painful, isolating, frustrating,anger-inducing.
SPEAKER_00 (01:59):
All the above.
SPEAKER_03 (02:00):
Yeah.
Why on earth you would open upand be vulnerable and share this
with people?
SPEAKER_00 (02:07):
Talk about it is helpful.
Because I as initially was goingthrough things, I felt like I
had to keep this tough machoexterior and just keep it all
in.
And almost like if I shared,like people would think less of
me.
So like once I finally startedeven opening up to my parents,
felt like a weight off myshoulders.
And then I started tellingfriends, and it showed me who my
(02:31):
really good friends were.
And even though they don't livein the same state anymore, some
of these people were like myclosest friends that go back to
elementary school.
Like I know they would there forme whatever I need.
There was something comfortingto me knowing that like people
still do love me and people docare about me, which is was very
helpful just to get that fromthe people who you thought were
(02:53):
your closest friends.
Like turns out, like, yeah, theyactually are your closest
friends.
SPEAKER_03 (02:56):
Yeah, same.
And the quality and quantity ofmy relationships just got so
much deeper.
People showed up for me.
SPEAKER_00 (03:04):
Exactly.
I wasn't like going out andhaving a cry with people, but
having a cry.
Imagine two guys, two guys at abar having a beer crying, right?
Um, but uh no, but like some ofmy best friends, like I don't
know, so we've all grown apartbecause really everyone has
families now, and it's just moredifficult.
You have to make a consciouschoice, stay in connection,
(03:26):
which is harder, I think, aswe're adults, right?
It's like they were checking inon me, which was great.
It was almost like not only dothey care about me, people care
about me, and then I'm gonna beokay.
SPEAKER_03 (03:34):
Yeah.
World's worst podcast host.
We don't even know who you are.
This macho man who's crying withhis friends over beers at the
bar.
Can you introduce yourself?
SPEAKER_00 (03:45):
Long lost, long lost friend crying over beer.
So yes, my Matt.
So Abby and I go way back tocollege where we first met as
interns.
SPEAKER_03 (03:57):
Sidebar.
I don't know if we met because Idated a friend of yours.
SPEAKER_00 (04:02):
Yes, you did.
SPEAKER_03 (04:02):
I don't know if I met you before the internship or
I think I knew of who you wereat the internship because of our
mutual friend.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (04:14):
I don't remember either.
SPEAKER_03 (04:15):
You were like on the periphery, and then when we were
interns together, it was like,oh yeah, that looked at So
anyway, we good sidebar.
SPEAKER_00 (04:24):
Well, yeah, I would have like no idea.
Did we meet because we wereinterns or was it after?
I don't remember.
SPEAKER_03 (04:30):
The world may never know.
We may never know.
SPEAKER_00 (04:32):
Well, college college feels like a blur at
this point in my life, so can'tremember unnecessarily what I
did last week.
Like, yeah, 20 years ago.
No, I got nothing.
SPEAKER_03 (04:42):
What made you say yes to letting me interview you
and talk about this?
SPEAKER_00 (04:51):
Part of it was just like you.
You said something on socialmedia.
I think it resonated personallywith me because I was like, oh
wow, like shit.
Almost kind of a very samesituation happened to myself,
right?
So it like made me want to reachout to you.
I think it's just that it'sgoing back to what I just was
talking about too.
Like just talking about it helpsbecause there's probably like
(05:11):
other men out there, I'm surethey were very much feel the
same way as like that macho.
Gonna keep it all in, have thattough exterior.
It's like, you know what?
Shit happens, right?
Just talk about it.
There's nothing wrong with it.
Nobody's gonna look down on youfor sharing your feelings and
crying.
So I'm not gonna cry during thispodcast.
Um won't make sense.
I'm gonna I'm gonna portray thatmacho exterior sort of like,
(05:33):
I'll get vulnerable, but yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (05:35):
Uh yeah, life will punch you in the face.
It will build that resiliencemuscle.
I think women uh naturally aremore communicative, and it's
maybe easier for us to find anetwork when we're going through
something like this.
And I really hope with thispodcast that the guys who find
(05:57):
it especially resonate andconnect with the the men sharing
their story.
So thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (06:05):
Yeah, it's like guys get together and I don't know,
they're having beers, and it'slike that's the last thing
they're talking about, probablyis like their deep feelings with
one another.
SPEAKER_03 (06:14):
And you're not alone, like that.
Other people have gone throughthis also, they've come out
better on the other side.
You're in the shit show of itnow, maybe, but it will get
better.
SPEAKER_00 (06:24):
Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_03 (06:26):
Let's rewind the clock.
How did you and her meet?
What attracted you to eachother?
Give us the context, the setup.
SPEAKER_00 (06:36):
So we met in college.
College and sweethearts, Iguess.
She was in a sorority.
A bunch of my friends and someof her sisters went to high
school together.
So, like, then she kind of wascoming over as they were coming
over, like having parties.
I remember just kind of meeting,was definitely attracted to her
as a typical, you know,20-year-old college guy.
(06:58):
I was probably just trying tosleep with her.
Uh, right.
Like I quickly realized, like,oh, you know, I actually do
actually really like her.
Enjoyed spending time with her.
There was something was fun.
I was attracted to her.
I was drawn to her.
I was stuffed.
She had very attractive eyesthat drew me in.
She loved baseball.
SPEAKER_03 (07:16):
There you go.
SPEAKER_00 (07:16):
Baseball.
The Cardinals were awesomearound that.
SPEAKER_03 (07:19):
Oh, you're right.
They were.
SPEAKER_00 (07:20):
They were so good.
So it was really fun to watchbaseball games together.
I love the Cardinals, and sheloved the Cardinals, and like
she knew what she was talkingabout.
Uh it was kind of a turn onthat.
Like, she knew what she wastalking about with baseball and
wasn't just like a superficialfan.
SPEAKER_03 (07:32):
She's hot and she likes baseball.
Yes.
Done.
Amazing.
Total baggage.
Done.
Got call of sweethearts, dated,married.
Then life took off from there.
What what happened next?
SPEAKER_00 (07:46):
We've been married, and we were kind, but we kind of
were just like all our friendswere having kids.
How is it we just kind ofweren't ready to do that?
And we were just like, let's gotravel and get further in our
own careers.
Do what we want to do versuswhat everyone wants us to do.
So we moved.
(08:07):
Um, we moved out to Seattle.
I mean, it was a great decision.
And like I think both of ourcareers have taken off since we
moved out there.
It's definitely more of anexpensive city.
SPEAKER_03 (08:17):
Can St.
Louis?
SPEAKER_00 (08:18):
Yeah, very much.
Believe it or not.
You'd have that likefive-bedroom house in St.
Louis.
It's like, yeah, for the sameprice now.
I barely have like athree-bedroom town, right?
It's beautiful with the waterand the mountains and
everything.
But then it's also like we gotout there, we did travel.
We did do that.
Well, we we traveled to Europemultiple times, got a dog,
finally had a kid.
(08:39):
Uh so it's like we did do thesekind of things we're supposed
to, but we got to live our livestoo.
They do the things that wewanted to do before we did all
that.
I have no regrets about it.
SPEAKER_03 (08:48):
Yeah.
You had to check some some boxesoff that you wanted to.
Yeah.
And you're you're here for alittle while, and you're like
settling into life.
It sounds like.
SPEAKER_00 (09:00):
Yeah.
Daughters going to school, thedog.
Just doing all the things, likeboth going to work every day,
come home, eat dinner, work out,and then repeat.
Yeah, there's definitely like aroutine setting, setting in.
I don't know if it was a goodroutine or not.
SPEAKER_03 (09:16):
That's life.
It's keeping other human beingsand dogs alive and said and you
know, off to school and all thethings.
SPEAKER_00 (09:24):
I mean, it's things, yeah, it's tough.
Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_03 (09:26):
From the outside looking in, family four.
SPEAKER_00 (09:30):
I think she considered a dog part of the
family.
SPEAKER_03 (09:32):
Or like I am.
Wait, she's the firstborn.
It's true.
SPEAKER_00 (09:36):
Falways will be the firstborn.
SPEAKER_03 (09:38):
Yeah.
So what's what's theundercurrent that's happening
that we might not see from theoutside looking in?
SPEAKER_00 (09:44):
I think we stopped.
We stopped communicating.
And I would say communicatinglike our actual like needs and
wants.
And we just kind of startedgoing through life like on that
day-to-day level, making sureeveryone's alive and feeding
everybody.
But we forgot about each otherand the relationship with one
another.
Probably the underlying thing iswe just didn't communicate with
(10:06):
one another.
It wasn't just straight surfacelimb conversation, but we
weren't probably going deeper.
And I think a lot of it is justlike talking about like, hey, I
need this or I want this.
I think that's probably what ledto some of like the said led to
things.
SPEAKER_03 (10:19):
And that can be a deeply vulnerable and tough
thing to say to a partner is Ineed this, I'm not getting the
yeah.
That's a tough conversation.
SPEAKER_00 (10:29):
Yeah.
And I mean, I didn't know it atthe time.
Like no, I didn't.
But like when she finally saidsomething to me about it, she
was already having an affair.
Yeah, it's like it was too late.
I didn't know there was anaffair going on, but that was
like probably driving that fromher.
But at the same time, it's like,fuck you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (10:44):
So okay.
Someone says the word affair,your mind immediately goes to
divorce.
What happened?
SPEAKER_00 (10:50):
Oh God, it's been such a long, it's a long road
and it's still ongoing.
So to set the stage, like, sowe're still separated, not
divorced.
We've been separated almost twoyears now, it feels like we
initially were gonna getdivorced, started talking to
lawyers, getting everything inorder, blah, blah, blah.
And then I think at some pointshe kind of came back to me and
(11:12):
was like, we need to try to seeif we can make this work and
like actually like go to couplestherapy because we didn't we
didn't really give it a shot.
I was like, okay, I understandyour point.
Because like I very much wentthrough all the emotions, right?
Like, fuck you, we're done.
And then I mean, God, you haveall the stages of grief, right?
SPEAKER_03 (11:29):
And I don't know if you felt this, but they came to
me in like random waves.
Yeah.
I'd be like crying at the gymbecause something would hit me.
SPEAKER_00 (11:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (11:37):
Very much stages of grief.
SPEAKER_00 (11:39):
I probably never thought anything about them
until then you kind of go backand you look at them, you're
like, yeah, I definitely dip allof those.
Uh so it's not trying toremember where I was going with
that.
SPEAKER_03 (11:49):
Um, okay, she she came back to you and said Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (11:53):
Basically, let's go to Cumbles Fairing.
I thought she was sincere, therewas crying, and I kind of found
out later.
I don't want to say it wasbullshit, but it kind of was
bullshit.
I don't want to say playing me.
Like she came to me because likeshe got in a fight with the
person that she was having anaffair with.
It kind of made her realize thatI think she was being stupid.
Wait, no shit.
SPEAKER_03 (12:13):
Hey, guess what?
The grass isn't greener.
SPEAKER_00 (12:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I hear you.
I hear you.
Right.
But also, like, my own part waslike, can we talk about this and
move forward?
At this point, like I startedgoing to therapy as well and
talking with my own therapist.
Again, guys, go to therapy.
SPEAKER_04 (12:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:29):
I will recommend it for everyone.
Uh, I should probably shouldhave started off with that,
right?
Like, guys, men go to therapy.
Talk to people.
It's just good to talk.
SPEAKER_03 (12:38):
This podcast is brought to you by therapy.
SPEAKER_00 (12:41):
I still go once a month.
Now we just talk about anything,right?
It's just great.
Yeah.
Um, so all right, go back.
But yeah, just like never gavethat a chance.
And I kind of wanted to see, isthere actually still something
there?
Do I feel like she's actuallysorry?
I thought she was.
The thing that always killed itto me was there were still like
snippets of conversation goingon with her and FBI.
SPEAKER_03 (13:05):
How did you know this?
SPEAKER_00 (13:07):
I frankly was just like, have you talked to him?
Oh, okay.
Honesty.
It was like it was text oremail, and I'm like, this can't
keep going on.
What am I doing?
I'm like, I'm not going totherapy and wasting my time if
this is still gonna happen.
SPEAKER_03 (13:20):
You're not giving us a fair chance.
SPEAKER_00 (13:22):
Exactly.
So I don't know, it kind of wentback and forth for a while.
Probably too long.
And then finally we got to thispoint like, let's just separate.
This is stupid.
I'm tired of doing this.
Let's just separate and see ifthat changes anything.
I would always kind of been ofthe mind.
I don't want to separate becauseit's just like pre-divorced.
(13:42):
I'd rather just get divorced.
And then I'm not sure whatchanged my mind.
Uh well, I probably do know.
I got laid off during all thistoo.
So, like, I like a total doublewhammy, right?
SPEAKER_03 (13:54):
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (13:56):
So not only I'm dealing with that, then I get
laid off.
So now I'm dealing with thewhole work trying to find a job.
It's like, well, fuck, I can'tjust like move out, because if I
move out, I'll haveunemployment, and that's it.
I don't want to say like she wassupporting me because like she
wasn't necessarily just likesupporting me.
So we started out by doing in afilm living together separated.
SPEAKER_03 (14:19):
Yeah, that's a thing.
SPEAKER_00 (14:20):
Totally, it's a thing.
Does it not work as well as youhad to see?
We would eat dinner togetherjust because for our daughter's
sake, it was right, so-and-so isresponsible for her bedtime
tonight.
We were sleeping in differentbedrooms, we were not hanging
out together in the evening, wewere completely separate.
Our early communication wasessentially getting our daughter
to school.
(14:40):
And then finally we kind of werelike, This isn't working.
Which it was because it we werejust around each other too much.
SPEAKER_03 (14:48):
But yeah, you're also in survival.
Yeah, like you especially werein survival mode.
I get that.
Yeah, just it's like one day tothe next.
Yeah, just trying to get throughthe day.
SPEAKER_00 (15:02):
Yeah, it sucked too because like being unemployed, I
would spend my days like, I'mjust looking for jobs.
She felt like I wasn't lookingfor jobs as I wasn't doing it
the way she would do it.
So that annoyed her and made herresent me more.
And I'm like, fuck you.
Like, I'm getting tons ofinterviews.
I'm just haven't been able toget a job yet.
I'm sorry.
(15:22):
Your way isn't necessarily thebest way, right?
SPEAKER_03 (15:24):
Like on top of an affair bomb that you just
dropped on me.
SPEAKER_00 (15:29):
Yeah.
We kind of came to the pointwhere like this isn't working.
I was like, yeah, I'm gonna moveout, right?
Like, I want to move out.
And we figured out a way to makeit work.
So we're financially, it's like,here's some money.
You've got this much money, likemove out.
Luckily, right about that timewe decided to do that.
I did land a job.
Thankfully.
All right, now I can move out.
Great.
(15:50):
I moved out on my own.
Um, I got the dog.
Only I get the dog is the dogloves me more.
Like, I'm the dog's person.
SPEAKER_03 (15:56):
Same.
SPEAKER_00 (15:57):
Um, yeah.
Like, but she still will watch,she's watching the dog now.
Uh, I think our daughter thoughtat first it was cool because,
like, oh, we have two houses.
But I think the hard part waslike when she's like, why can't
we just live together?
Like, it's like she doesn'tfully understand it yet.
And I think you still see partsfrom her where she's sad and
just wants the other one.
(16:19):
And I think that's that's beenreally hard.
But I being separated, I think,has taught me a lot about
myself.
Well, like, I don't know what ittaught me a lot about.
Well, that's sorry.
SPEAKER_03 (16:27):
I do it does.
SPEAKER_00 (16:28):
No, it does.
It gave me like what I need oflike, yeah, I'm gonna be okay.
That's like what it is.
Like, I don't need you.
Because I think initially whenyou're going through everything,
I think I was scared.
Yeah, it's so much unknown.
I mean, not just financial,right?
We both had good jobs and likewe were doing well to where it's
like, yeah, we weren't worryingabout money on a week-to-week
(16:51):
basis, right?
And now I'm going down to onepaycheck.
And I like, yeah, I gotta payattention a little closer.
I can't just be spending as muchas I was.
But yeah, so I think there wasjust there's a lot of scaredness
and fear.
I mean, not to mention the wholeaffair.
Am I good enough looking?
Like the self-confidence level,right?
SPEAKER_04 (17:10):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (17:10):
You think you're the reason.
So it's just all like compoundall the things you think about.
So it felt like a big kick inthe nuts.
SPEAKER_04 (17:17):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (17:19):
I think just kind of when I moved out, I I kind of
just got to this point whereit's like, I'm gonna be okay.
SPEAKER_03 (17:24):
You had been through enough shit that it takes you
down a peg or two, but it alsooddly kind of like builds your
confidence.
SPEAKER_00 (17:35):
Yes.
Like there was like almost likethis freeing aspect too of oh, I
can go do this.
That's awesome.
Like, because I think before myone of my favorite hobbies is
golf, right?
I would feel guilty leaving forsix hours in the day.
Like, I'm guilty leaving you andour child.
I felt guilty about that.
Now I'm like, oh, I don't havethat responsibility.
I can go do this, I can go dothe things that I love to do.
(17:58):
And I can go skiing, just doingthe things that I enjoy doing.
And there's no guilt or but Idon't feel like I'm missing
anything about it.
Like I'm just happy and livingmy own life.
SPEAKER_03 (18:10):
Yeah.
Our stories are oddly similar.
Move to an entirely new city forthe spouse's other job.
Have to acclimate and rebuild.
Now, yours is different in thatit sounds like you found out
because she told you.
I found out through credit cardsand cell phones.
(18:30):
So I would have led this genesaw puzzle together.
SPEAKER_00 (18:35):
But it sounds like she I wasn't going like all like
PI.
I had thought perhaps somethingcould be going on.
But I was like, I wasn't likesuper like paranoid about it or
anything.
SPEAKER_03 (18:46):
Like you trust this person.
SPEAKER_00 (18:48):
Yeah, right.
Exactly.
But yeah, then I did found out,and yeah, like as soon as I
confronted her, we came rightout.
Gotcha.
SPEAKER_03 (18:57):
I don't know how you felt because my timeline was
different, where I found outafter I had already filed, and
that was the reason for themonths and months and months of
odd behavior.
But when I found out it was anaffair, people have asked me,
Well, did you feel like?
(19:17):
Like you weren't good enough.
You that and I was like, no,actually, I had an opposite
feeling.
It felt like I was carryingaround this weighted vest that
it was my fault of what washappening.
And when I found out, I waslike, haha, no, no, no, no, no,
no.
Nope.
I'm taking this weighted vestoff.
I'm putting it on you.
This is your bullshit, yourthing.
(19:38):
You need to go.
I know enough about affairs toknow that it's the other person.
It's not me.
But what'd you feel?
SPEAKER_00 (19:46):
Obviously, like there was a lot of anger knowing
that it was going on.
And I still sometimes findmyself being like pissed off.
SPEAKER_03 (19:52):
Same, right?
Like you blew up our lives.
SPEAKER_00 (19:55):
Yeah.
I think the hardest part for meis I feel like it's always been
somehow my fault.
Like it's almost like she'sblaming, she's blamed me for
everything versus just taking.
Like she says she tookaccountability.
Okay, you took accountability bysaying, Yes, I had an affair.
Congrats.
Then you kind of lied to me tosay, all right, let's go to
therapy and see if this canwork.
(20:15):
But at the same time, you stillfelt so entitled to where like
you could have a conversationwith him still and not fully be
into this.
It's eye-opening for me of like,you weren't necessarily always
the person like I thought youwere.
So I'll come back and say likeselfish.
I think yes, a fair is probablyinherently selfish, but just
like there's a lot ofselfishness around like just
(20:36):
everything you do.
And I did a lot.
Yeah, you did a lot too, otherways, but like don't fucking act
like you did everything and Idid nothing.
That's bullshit.
SPEAKER_03 (20:45):
So for you to go out at a fair and like I think
that's something that I've hadto accept is there's some things
you just never know.
And even if my ex were honest tome, and if if I were to shake
and be like, what the fuck wereyou thinking?
What like I may never trulyknow, and that's something
that's kind of tough to accept,but you kind of have to.
SPEAKER_00 (21:07):
I don't know that I want to know though either.
SPEAKER_03 (21:09):
No, I wouldn't.
I wanted to know.
Yeah.
That's your depositions.
SPEAKER_00 (21:14):
I mean, I guess for me it was like fair enough.
Like you told me you're havingfriends, that's all I needed to
know.
Like I didn't need to know.
I think I maybe initially I did,but now it's like I'm further
away from it.
I'm like, I don't care anymore.
As we talked about things, all Iever asked you was just to like
show me that you want the onethat you be with.
And like you failed to do that.
That felt like the most basicthing you could do.
(21:36):
You had an affair to prove to methat you actually still do love
me.
SPEAKER_03 (21:39):
And it's just like I'm sorry.
Yeah, that sucks.
I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_00 (21:45):
It does, but I don't know.
SPEAKER_03 (21:47):
How do you just kind of move on and so going through
a divorce or even separating,there is the emotional side of
things, and then there's thebusiness side of things where
you have to get shit.
In order and learn things, oryou know, what whatever have
you.
What did you had to learn orprepare as you gear up for the
(22:08):
process or as you're in theprocess?
SPEAKER_00 (22:11):
Um, I don't know if I was learn anything.
SPEAKER_03 (22:15):
Like I'll say for me, I was not very astute on our
finances.
Like I didn't spend willy-nilly,but as far as how the stock
vests over time, like I didn'tknow that stuff.
So I had to get a much betterunderstanding of the finances.
I know a lot of women that haveto do that.
SPEAKER_00 (22:34):
Yeah, like I mean, uh like she did pay all the
bills.
But again, I wasn't justspending like crazy.
And like I was very familiar, Iknew what was in the bank
account, right?
Like I knew what was on thecredit card statement.
Like, I knew how much I kneweverything.
She always took theresponsibility of wanting to pay
the bills.
Like it was her thing.
And I was like, okay, like takeit.
Yes, paying bills and payingeven closer attention to what I
(22:56):
was spending on was I'll say alittle more, especially going
down to like one income.
SPEAKER_03 (23:00):
Yeah, that's the thing.
Right.
From splitting everything to nowI'm paying for the entire
Netflix bill and all that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:05):
Yeah, like I'm not like I'm not saving as much as I
would like to, right?
That's sucks.
But to live too.
Right.
So I I don't know.
I don't want to say it was alearning because I'm an adult.
I know how to pay bills and Iknow how to track my finances.
But it was helpful to be like,all right, now I'm even closer
to it than I was.
SPEAKER_03 (23:25):
Yeah.
I got even closer to thefinances than when I was.
SPEAKER_00 (23:28):
I don't know.
Maybe the other it's just likehow I spent my time, right?
SPEAKER_03 (23:31):
That's spending money and spending time.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:33):
Yeah, because like because there's a lot more,
there's just downtime.
Because we're the like de factodivorce, right?
We have a parenting plan.
I don't have my daughter 50% ofthe time.
So it's like, all right, what amI gonna do this Saturday with me
and the dog?
I gotta go figure out what todo.
Oh, I can sleep in.
Just figuring out those things.
(23:53):
I love watching football orsoccer or sports, but I'm also
like, I don't want to sit thereall day.
I get bored.
SPEAKER_03 (23:59):
You're absolutely right.
And another male guest made acomment.
You're going from two to one.
It's just math.
You will be lonely.
You will have downtime.
SPEAKER_00 (24:09):
There's been times where I'm just like 8:30.
I'm like, I'm just gonna go tobed.
I don't know.
In a way, it's also kind of nicebecause getting lots of sleep,
why should I just stay up andwatch another hour of Netflix?
Because I'm just like bored andlonely, I'm just gonna go to
bed.
SPEAKER_03 (24:21):
So you mentioned earlier and getting over your
fears.
What were some of the biggestchallenges and fears that you
overcame through this?
SPEAKER_00 (24:32):
I mean, the biggest one I think was like just
self-confidence.
I don't know.
Like it very much felt like I'mjust not good enough.
Yeah.
And it was just like this, likeI said, kick in the nuts, right?
That was probably the biggestone and the hardest one.
SPEAKER_03 (24:47):
Let's dig into that.
SPEAKER_00 (24:48):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (24:49):
How did you how did I overcome?
Yeah, like so.
Then how did you either rebuildyour self-confidence or let go
of any, like she doesn't haveany bearing on my
self-confidence?
Like, how how did you come toaccept your own self-confidence?
SPEAKER_00 (25:08):
I started digging.
SPEAKER_03 (25:09):
Oh okay, on a left field.
SPEAKER_00 (25:12):
Um, but I think that all right, so that that was the
for me, it was like I wasexpecting I wouldn't go to the
gym and I would I mean I don'tknow.
I just great Yeah, I went to thegym and did all the things I
love, and that was awesome.
But I I maybe I don't know, Itook it personally that I wasn't
good enough.
And I like I signed up for thedating apps, right?
And it was just like, yeah, no,people like me.
SPEAKER_02 (25:34):
Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (25:35):
Like, or it's like, yeah, like people do find me
attractive still.
That was part of it.
It kind of gave me that like, Idon't know, there's like that
that reassurance of yeah, I'mgonna be okay.
I'm not gonna be lonely forever,right?
Like I very much have beendating.
Now, in my like telling people,yeah, I'm not actually divorced,
I'm separated.
Kind of a deal breaker for a lotof women.
(25:56):
And like I get that.
I went on dates with women whoare also just separated.
SPEAKER_03 (25:59):
Yeah.
It's a spectrum.
SPEAKER_00 (26:01):
Yeah, right.
But it's also like, I just wantto go have a good time, meet
people.
And like that's something I'vebeen able to do, and it's been a
lot of fun just meeting newpeople, especially since it's so
different now.
We're not just like going to abar and picking someone up.
SPEAKER_03 (26:13):
I I have yet to actually be on the app, so I
don't know.
Oh, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (26:16):
Swipe left, swipe right.
You're missing out.
I've heard no, you're it's thethey're they're like a blessing
and a curse because like it'sthose make things so easy.
But also then you're also like,this is overwhelming.
I hate this.
And then you're like, I have tolog off for months.
But back to that, like, yeah,that definitely helped my
self-confidence.
SPEAKER_03 (26:35):
Good for you.
Um okay, so self-confidence waslike a challenge or a fear.
What else?
SPEAKER_00 (26:42):
I mean, definitely the money, the financial
standpoint, you know, having ajob helps with that.
And I I mean I kind of talkedabout it earlier.
I'm just you know, a little moreconscious of what I'm spending
my money on.
Do I need this new shirt?
No, I probably don't need itright now, right?
Like I can wait.
Not having my daughter aroundall the time.
Like I didn't have a kid to belike a part-time parent.
SPEAKER_04 (27:04):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (27:05):
And I felt like now like I'm forced into it.
And it's not what I signed upfor, and like that sucks.
And I feel like I miss things.
Yeah.
So that is frustrating.
And like when she has a sportingevent or anything, like I'm
always gonna be her.
SPEAKER_03 (27:21):
That's a that's a biggie.
SPEAKER_00 (27:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:24):
How do you kind of accept the new normal, so to
speak?
SPEAKER_00 (27:30):
I mean, it took some time to get used to, for sure.
I will admit, like the cuttingof hay.
Um because like I said, she'salways been a bad sleeper and
was always like, it's 6 30 on aSaturday, let's wake up.
No, let's go back to bed.
You feel like you missed things.
Feels weird saying, like, shefinally just learned how to ride
her bike without trainingwheels.
(27:50):
But like, I missed it becausebike's at mom's house.
Yeah, like she sent me a videoand everything, but like I felt
like I missed it.
Yeah.
And like she didn't want me tocome over and show me, and I
did, because we still live closeenough to where like it's easy
to get there within five, tenminutes.
Yeah.
But it's like, yeah, like thelittle moments you kind of miss.
So, but then I mean, I know itgoes the other way too.
Like, I have moments with hershe misses out on.
(28:12):
Yeah, like that was that was ahard one.
I was frustrated because I feltlike I I didn't want to be
forced into that situation whereI wasn't gonna see her all the
time.
SPEAKER_03 (28:20):
Yeah, you didn't sign up for this.
SPEAKER_00 (28:23):
It sucks, but then also like having that ability to
be like, nope, here's what I'mgonna go do.
I'm gonna go do it.
I got over that guilt of beinggone all day because I'm doing
the things that I love makes mehappy.
SPEAKER_03 (28:36):
You've got the time to do the things that you enjoy
doing.
That sound like it helped youthrough this process.
What other uh tools or resourcesdid you utilize?
SPEAKER_00 (28:50):
I mean, therapy.
SPEAKER_03 (28:51):
Yeah, we've we talked about therapy.
For sure.
SPEAKER_00 (28:53):
I mean, yeah, like that's that is when that was a
big one, right?
Like it's just just so helpfulto just have that neutral party
and just to talk about likeanything and everything.
Feel like happy gilmore here.
Go to my happy place, right?
I kept remembering myself, like,do the things that make you
happy.
What are those things?
All right, like when I would goto these places and do these
(29:14):
things, it's like my mind wasjust free and clear.
And like I wasn't focused onanything else except like at the
time like working out or likewhen I was hitting golf balls.
It's all I was trying to do.
It was like freeing.
I kept doing these things moreand more and more and more.
And like it gave me thatreminder like you're okay.
And like as you keep doing them,you have fun and you have that
(29:37):
joy again.
So I think those are two of thethings for me.
But then I also like I fell backin love with skiing past year.
Uh I hadn't been in a while.
Not like I'd go do it by myself,but like just going out there,
like being at the top of themountain, just like the fresh
air, the snow, the beauty, beingable to just fall in love with
(29:57):
something that you hadn't donein like 15 years.
SPEAKER_03 (30:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:01):
It like like following love with something
all over again.
SPEAKER_03 (30:04):
It sounds like in your examples, it's things or
activities that take you out ofthe muck of it and give you a
sense of perspective.
SPEAKER_00 (30:15):
Yeah, that's a good way to put it.
Yeah, like doing stuff.
Doing stuff.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (30:19):
I went to I did stuff.
Same.
I did all the things and it wasusually 95% by myself.
And I think it it also buildsthat self-confidence.
Like I can do these things bymyself.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:33):
And it's I can still get better about it.
Might have mostly moral for likesporting things, but you can do
those by yourself.
But I've never had things like,yeah, I'm gonna go out to eat.
I'm gonna take myself out toeat.
Yeah.
Like I don't mind.
Find the things that make youhappy and do them.
Like you said, like it took youout of all the shit and all the
muck.
And it did make you happy.
(30:54):
And like then, like more andmore you kept doing them, you've
just further and furtherremoved.
unknown (30:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:58):
And now you're just happy.
unknown (31:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:00):
I don't know.
Maybe that's how I felt.
SPEAKER_02 (31:02):
I would just like to caveat right there.
You know, do things that makeyou happy through the lens of
health and wellness.
Stop out.
SPEAKER_00 (31:09):
Yes.
Do not just turn to alcohol ordrugs.
Because that's also very easy todo.
SPEAKER_02 (31:13):
It is.
SPEAKER_00 (31:14):
Like, it is very easy just to be like, Yeah, oh,
I'm pissed.
I'm gonna have 12 beers now orwhatever.
And yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (31:22):
Or something good happened.
I'm gonna have a drink.
Or something bad happened.
I'm gonna have a drink.
Or it's Tuesday, I'm gonna havea drink.
So, okay, you're an active guy.
How did you maintain your healthand wellness during this?
SPEAKER_00 (31:35):
When it first happened, man, like the anxiety
and uh I don't know, depression.
Maybe a little bit ofdepression, probably just
through the roof.
I lost like 20 pounds justbecause like I wasn't eating.
I did too.
Yeah.
I did so nervous and everything.
SPEAKER_03 (31:51):
And it was 20 pounds of like muscle.
It was yeah, like it was alsolost weight.
SPEAKER_00 (31:55):
Yeah, I was like, holy shit.
And like I was down to like aweight.
I'm like, I haven't seen thisprobably since like eighth
grade.
Oh my god, right?
But like you said, like, yeah,it was like muscle.
So like that was definitely nothealthy.
Uh, but that was also for like Iwasn't eating because I was just
so yeah, I didn't feel like it,like I was anxious.
I was so blah blah blah.
I haven't never I didn't reallyhave depression a ton, but I was
(32:17):
very anxious.
And like my anxiety was throughthe roof.
So like it helped just to takethe anti depress I guess the
antidepressant.
Yeah.
And like I don't I don't evenknow that I I really need it a
ton, but like it just it doeshelp.
SPEAKER_03 (32:32):
So you were back in the gym doing those things, but
then also you were going totherapy, and then also you were
getting additional support.
SPEAKER_00 (32:39):
Yeah, like the gym was helpful.
I mean, therapy was helped methe most remind remind myself to
make sure I'm being healthystill.
She always made sure, like, hey,what's going on?
Let's talk about what's goingon.
And then it's always likereminded me, like, what are you
doing to make you happy?
You love to cook.
Like, go make yourself anawesome meal today, right?
Like, what do you want?
Go make something.
Don't just sit there and drink abunch, right?
(33:01):
Like, which I never really did.
I actually probably starteddrinking less initially because
we would oftentimes have abottle of wine afterwards and
share a bottle of wine.
It was like, well, it'ssomething we did together.
I don't want to do that anymore.
Something a good thing was Idrank less.
SPEAKER_03 (33:14):
Yeah, yeah.
As you reflect back, anythingthat you would have done
differently as it relates toyour health?
SPEAKER_00 (33:22):
I don't know.
I feel like in general, like Iwas pretty good.
I think I did all the rightthings.
Um yes, I wish I would have notlost a bunch of weight, but like
I think that was just I can'tforce myself to eat if I'm not
hungry because I'm so anxiousand yeah nervous, right?
I was pretty healthy.
(33:43):
I mean, I wasn't sleeping great.
I tried smoking pot to like helpme go to bed.
Didn't really help that much.
It's legal in Washington,everybody, so it's fine.
Uh but I was like tryingdifferent things, but I just
need to sleep because I just wasso anxious I couldn't get my
mind to turn off.
Yeah.
So that drove a lot of things.
(34:03):
Uh maybe like the most unhealthything was just like I couldn't
sleep.
SPEAKER_03 (34:07):
And the sleep is one of those things that like you
can't force yourself to sleep.
Like you can force yourself tomaybe eat a little something.
Yeah.
You can force yourself to go tothe gym.
Yeah.
You can't force yourself to goto sleep.
I I feel yeah, yeah.
My sleep was impacted as well.
SPEAKER_00 (34:23):
Not great.
Not great.
SPEAKER_03 (34:25):
And then you get on this cycle of you're going to
bed so late, so you're wakingup.
It's just, it's, it's a cycle.
But um, a bomb is dropped onyou, your life explodes around
you, you're in the ashes of theremains.
What values crystallized for yougoing through this?
SPEAKER_00 (34:46):
I mean, very much trust.
SPEAKER_03 (34:48):
Yeah.
Trust and honesty.
I hear yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (34:52):
I don't think that I could ever going forward.
I don't think I could ever bewith someone that like cheated.
If someone was in a previousrelationship and had an affair
and they they were the personthat did it, like there would
just be like traumatic remainsthere.
Yeah.
And that would, I don't know, itwould always linger.
I just don't think I could dothat.
Um, so that's probably somethingfor sure.
(35:12):
But then I I mean I probably didlearn the value more of
communication through all this,not only myself, but like the
people around me.
And kind of going back to thebeginning, how I talked about
that macho feeling.
I can be vulnerable and it'sokay to like actually talk about
my feelings if I'm like, noteverything's good.
I don't know how to portraythis, everything's always great.
(35:34):
You know, like I can actuallycry or talk about I'm worried or
sad or you know, very anxiousentirely.
It's all okay for myself, thatcommunication and ability to
share.
Like you feel like your partner,you're a safe space with them,
right?
And I think that's somethingthat I need going forward and I
want going forward.
And I don't, you know, I don'twant to feel like I'm walking on
(35:54):
eggshells always.
SPEAKER_03 (35:56):
Yeah.
Um so you recognize thatalthough this like happened to
me, there's maybe some thingsthat I need to change about
myself.
Like, how did you change?
SPEAKER_00 (36:08):
I came back to like the self-confidence part, right?
I was never not confident, butlike I'm also not walking around
like the most confident guy inthe room, right?
Like I don't, you know,regaining that and then it's not
like learning about myself andyou know, learning like I think
I would have been able to maybeforgive and like maybe move past
this, but it wasn't there on theother end.
(36:30):
And like, well, I maybeeventually forgive.
Yeah, maybe eventually.
SPEAKER_03 (36:35):
I hear you on the forgiveness piece.
Yeah.
That is a struggle.
I've I've come up with this likespectrum where on the like on
the left hand side it'sacceptance and on the right hand
side it's forgiveness.
And it's almost like you tickalong the way.
Can I accept that you're a liar?
(36:56):
Yeah, I can accept that.
Can I accept that you're adouchebag?
Yeah, I can accept that.
Like, can I accept that you're aflawed human being?
Uh yeah, I can accept that.
And it kind of like moves itsway to forgiveness.
And I know that they sayforgiveness is more about you
(37:18):
like letting go than it is theother person, but my there's
still like But you're I mean,you're right.
SPEAKER_00 (37:25):
Like, I went on this like acceptance path a while
ago.
Yeah, it's like I accepted we'renot gonna be together.
You know what?
That's fine.
And I accepted like all thesethings, like great.
But like, yeah, there's stillthat like anger of, you know,
I'm not really forgive you forwhat you did.
Um, but that's okay.
Like it it'll get there at somepoint, and I know that, but you
(37:45):
until then, you're just like youaccept it and move on.
SPEAKER_03 (37:48):
Yeah.
Is we just gonna like wrap up?
And you seem to be in a goodplace now.
We've we've gone the therapy andtalked about all the things and
even though did the drugs andnot know.
SPEAKER_00 (38:01):
Did the drugs.
SPEAKER_03 (38:03):
If you could go back and have a conversation with the
I just got kicked in the nuts,Matt, what would you tell him?
What would this version tellthat version?
SPEAKER_00 (38:16):
I mean, my first initial reaction is it's all
gonna be okay.
And I know it that sounds sosimple, but like you said, it's
like when you get kicked in thenuts, they're like your mind is
going a thousand differentdirections, and you have all
those worry and fear, and itjust brings the anxiety and blah
(38:37):
blah blah, right?
You're gonna be okay.
I feel like I'm one like JackAndy or it's like I am good
enough.
And darn it, people like me, uhright.
But but it's true.
I am good enough as a person,right?
People do find me attractive.
Your self-confidence shouldremain intact.
Like you didn't do anythingwrong and just kind of like
(38:58):
remember those things that arejust gonna be super helpful.
SPEAKER_03 (39:01):
So yeah, it's easy to say now, but like Yeah, when
you're in the thick of it, it'shard.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (39:07):
I like to think that like I was aware of this, like
it's gonna be okay, but you alsodon't know.
So there is a little bit of thelike that fear.
But like, truly, like it isgonna be okay, and it is all
actually gonna work out.
And like I always say thatusually about everything.
I try to live very positive onthat one.
Like, even with when I lost myjob, right?
Like, I'm like, it's gonna workout, it's gonna be okay.
(39:27):
Yeah, and sure enough,everything did work out okay.
It's it took longer than Iwanted, but it was okay.
Everything worked out.
SPEAKER_03 (39:34):
So And now having that experience, I don't know if
you feel this, but I feel likeother hurdles that come along,
it's like, well, it worked outlast time, it's gonna work out
this time.
SPEAKER_00 (39:43):
Yeah, it's like you if you got through that, you can
get through anything.
SPEAKER_03 (39:46):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (39:47):
Yes, for sure.
Very much.
SPEAKER_03 (39:49):
I mean, that's a great way to end, I guess, is
what do you want people to takeaway from hearing your story?
SPEAKER_00 (39:55):
You're stronger than you think you are, and you're
gonna be okay.
SPEAKER_03 (40:01):
Well, thank you for talking with me and sharing your
story.
Again, sorry you had to gothrough that.
It fucking sucks.
SPEAKER_00 (40:10):
But we're both okay.
SPEAKER_03 (40:10):
But we're both okay.
We're both okay.
And we're in divorce clubs.
SPEAKER_01 (40:13):
Thanks for listening to Bitter or Better, where we
turn heartbreak into healing andsurvival into strength.
As Brene Brown says,vulnerability is the last thing
we want to show, but the firstthing we look for in others.
That's what this is all about.
Real people showing up, sharingtheir stories, and reminding the
rest of us that we're not alone.
(40:34):
This episode for the next video,share it with someone who might
need to start.
And remember, you have a choice.
The first or best.
Stay next time for more realstories, real people, and real
resilient.
Welcome to Bitter or Better, real stories of divorce
and resilience, the podcast thatgets real about the messy middle
of divorce and what it takes tocome out stronger on the other
side.
I'm your host, Abby England,marketer, national board
certified health and wellnesscoach, and author of the
upcoming book, Bitter or Better.
And I've personally earned mydivorce Kepler.
(00:23):
This podcast isn't legal advice.
It isn't tips and tricks anddon't forget and hacks and
output.
There's plenty of other podcastsout there, interviewing lawyers,
therapists, accountants, allsorts of divorce dietests.
This podcast is raw, realconversations with everyday
people who have jobs, kids,responsibilities, commitments,
(00:46):
and yet they've weathered theheartbreak, rebuilt their lives,
and found unexpected strengthalong the way.
Because while divorce can breakyou, it can also make you
better.
You are not alone.
Let's hear someone else's storyand see what resonates.
SPEAKER_03 (01:01):
I'm here on site in the Western time zone.
Um I don't love it.
I gotta say, I don't love wakingup feeling behind.
SPEAKER_00 (01:10):
You're wrong.
SPEAKER_03 (01:11):
I know until the phone.
No.
But like at nine o'clock here,it's already noon back home, and
I'm like, the day's over.
SPEAKER_00 (01:17):
And I'm drinking coffee and football's on, and
it's amazing.
SPEAKER_03 (01:21):
That's fair.
Yeah, you wake up to footballversus like having to mill
around for a little bit.
SPEAKER_00 (01:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (01:28):
So we are old friends going back to college.
SPEAKER_00 (01:32):
Go way back.
SPEAKER_03 (01:33):
We got some stories to share that will stay in the
vault.
SPEAKER_00 (01:36):
Not sure if I remember.
SPEAKER_03 (01:40):
I start this podcast by asking people why on earth
they would want to maybe notwant to, but they're willing to
go back into this chapter oftheir lives that was deeply
painful, isolating, frustrating,anger-inducing.
SPEAKER_00 (01:59):
All the above.
SPEAKER_03 (02:00):
Yeah.
Why on earth you would open upand be vulnerable and share this
with people?
SPEAKER_00 (02:07):
Talk about it is helpful.
Because I as initially was goingthrough things, I felt like I
had to keep this tough machoexterior and just keep it all
in.
And almost like if I shared,like people would think less of
me.
So like once I finally startedeven opening up to my parents,
felt like a weight off myshoulders.
And then I started tellingfriends, and it showed me who my
(02:31):
really good friends were.
And even though they don't livein the same state anymore, some
of these people were like myclosest friends that go back to
elementary school.
Like I know they would there forme whatever I need.
There was something comfortingto me knowing that like people
still do love me and people docare about me, which is was very
helpful just to get that fromthe people who you thought were
(02:53):
your closest friends.
Like turns out, like, yeah, theyactually are your closest
friends.
SPEAKER_03 (02:56):
Yeah, same.
And the quality and quantity ofmy relationships just got so
much deeper.
People showed up for me.
SPEAKER_00 (03:04):
Exactly.
I wasn't like going out andhaving a cry with people, but
having a cry.
Imagine two guys, two guys at abar having a beer crying, right?
Um, but uh no, but like some ofmy best friends, like I don't
know, so we've all grown apartbecause really everyone has
families now, and it's just moredifficult.
You have to make a consciouschoice, stay in connection,
(03:26):
which is harder, I think, aswe're adults, right?
It's like they were checking inon me, which was great.
It was almost like not only dothey care about me, people care
about me, and then I'm gonna beokay.
SPEAKER_03 (03:34):
Yeah.
World's worst podcast host.
We don't even know who you are.
This macho man who's crying withhis friends over beers at the
bar.
Can you introduce yourself?
SPEAKER_00 (03:45):
Long lost, long lost friend crying over beer.
So yes, my Matt.
So Abby and I go way back tocollege where we first met as
interns.
SPEAKER_03 (03:57):
Sidebar.
I don't know if we met because Idated a friend of yours.
SPEAKER_00 (04:02):
Yes, you did.
SPEAKER_03 (04:02):
I don't know if I met you before the internship or
I think I knew of who you wereat the internship because of our
mutual friend.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (04:14):
I don't remember either.
SPEAKER_03 (04:15):
You were like on the periphery, and then when we were
interns together, it was like,oh yeah, that looked at So
anyway, we good sidebar.
SPEAKER_00 (04:24):
Well, yeah, I would have like no idea.
Did we meet because we wereinterns or was it after?
I don't remember.
SPEAKER_03 (04:30):
The world may never know.
We may never know.
SPEAKER_00 (04:32):
Well, college college feels like a blur at
this point in my life, so can'tremember unnecessarily what I
did last week.
Like, yeah, 20 years ago.
No, I got nothing.
SPEAKER_03 (04:42):
What made you say yes to letting me interview you
and talk about this?
SPEAKER_00 (04:51):
Part of it was just like you.
You said something on socialmedia.
I think it resonated personallywith me because I was like, oh
wow, like shit.
Almost kind of a very samesituation happened to myself,
right?
So it like made me want to reachout to you.
I think it's just that it'sgoing back to what I just was
talking about too.
Like just talking about it helpsbecause there's probably like
(05:11):
other men out there, I'm surethey were very much feel the
same way as like that macho.
Gonna keep it all in, have thattough exterior.
It's like, you know what?
Shit happens, right?
Just talk about it.
There's nothing wrong with it.
Nobody's gonna look down on youfor sharing your feelings and
crying.
So I'm not gonna cry during thispodcast.
Um won't make sense.
I'm gonna I'm gonna portray thatmacho exterior sort of like,
(05:33):
I'll get vulnerable, but yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (05:35):
Uh yeah, life will punch you in the face.
It will build that resiliencemuscle.
I think women uh naturally aremore communicative, and it's
maybe easier for us to find anetwork when we're going through
something like this.
And I really hope with thispodcast that the guys who find
(05:57):
it especially resonate andconnect with the the men sharing
their story.
So thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (06:05):
Yeah, it's like guys get together and I don't know,
they're having beers, and it'slike that's the last thing
they're talking about, probablyis like their deep feelings with
one another.
SPEAKER_03 (06:14):
And you're not alone, like that.
Other people have gone throughthis also, they've come out
better on the other side.
You're in the shit show of itnow, maybe, but it will get
better.
SPEAKER_00 (06:24):
Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_03 (06:26):
Let's rewind the clock.
How did you and her meet?
What attracted you to eachother?
Give us the context, the setup.
SPEAKER_00 (06:36):
So we met in college.
College and sweethearts, Iguess.
She was in a sorority.
A bunch of my friends and someof her sisters went to high
school together.
So, like, then she kind of wascoming over as they were coming
over, like having parties.
I remember just kind of meeting,was definitely attracted to her
as a typical, you know,20-year-old college guy.
(06:58):
I was probably just trying tosleep with her.
Uh, right.
Like I quickly realized, like,oh, you know, I actually do
actually really like her.
Enjoyed spending time with her.
There was something was fun.
I was attracted to her.
I was drawn to her.
I was stuffed.
She had very attractive eyesthat drew me in.
She loved baseball.
SPEAKER_03 (07:16):
There you go.
SPEAKER_00 (07:16):
Baseball.
The Cardinals were awesomearound that.
SPEAKER_03 (07:19):
Oh, you're right.
They were.
SPEAKER_00 (07:20):
They were so good.
So it was really fun to watchbaseball games together.
I love the Cardinals, and sheloved the Cardinals, and like
she knew what she was talkingabout.
Uh it was kind of a turn onthat.
Like, she knew what she wastalking about with baseball and
wasn't just like a superficialfan.
SPEAKER_03 (07:32):
She's hot and she likes baseball.
Yes.
Done.
Amazing.
Total baggage.
Done.
Got call of sweethearts, dated,married.
Then life took off from there.
What what happened next?
SPEAKER_00 (07:46):
We've been married, and we were kind, but we kind of
were just like all our friendswere having kids.
How is it we just kind ofweren't ready to do that?
And we were just like, let's gotravel and get further in our
own careers.
Do what we want to do versuswhat everyone wants us to do.
So we moved.
(08:07):
Um, we moved out to Seattle.
I mean, it was a great decision.
And like I think both of ourcareers have taken off since we
moved out there.
It's definitely more of anexpensive city.
SPEAKER_03 (08:17):
Can St.
Louis?
SPEAKER_00 (08:18):
Yeah, very much.
Believe it or not.
You'd have that likefive-bedroom house in St.
Louis.
It's like, yeah, for the sameprice now.
I barely have like athree-bedroom town, right?
It's beautiful with the waterand the mountains and
everything.
But then it's also like we gotout there, we did travel.
We did do that.
Well, we we traveled to Europemultiple times, got a dog,
finally had a kid.
(08:39):
Uh so it's like we did do thesekind of things we're supposed
to, but we got to live our livestoo.
They do the things that wewanted to do before we did all
that.
I have no regrets about it.
SPEAKER_03 (08:48):
Yeah.
You had to check some some boxesoff that you wanted to.
Yeah.
And you're you're here for alittle while, and you're like
settling into life.
It sounds like.
SPEAKER_00 (09:00):
Yeah.
Daughters going to school, thedog.
Just doing all the things, likeboth going to work every day,
come home, eat dinner, work out,and then repeat.
Yeah, there's definitely like aroutine setting, setting in.
I don't know if it was a goodroutine or not.
SPEAKER_03 (09:16):
That's life.
It's keeping other human beingsand dogs alive and said and you
know, off to school and all thethings.
SPEAKER_00 (09:24):
I mean, it's things, yeah, it's tough.
Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_03 (09:26):
From the outside looking in, family four.
SPEAKER_00 (09:30):
I think she considered a dog part of the
family.
SPEAKER_03 (09:32):
Or like I am.
Wait, she's the firstborn.
It's true.
SPEAKER_00 (09:36):
Falways will be the firstborn.
SPEAKER_03 (09:38):
Yeah.
So what's what's theundercurrent that's happening
that we might not see from theoutside looking in?
SPEAKER_00 (09:44):
I think we stopped.
We stopped communicating.
And I would say communicatinglike our actual like needs and
wants.
And we just kind of startedgoing through life like on that
day-to-day level, making sureeveryone's alive and feeding
everybody.
But we forgot about each otherand the relationship with one
another.
Probably the underlying thing iswe just didn't communicate with
(10:06):
one another.
It wasn't just straight surfacelimb conversation, but we
weren't probably going deeper.
And I think a lot of it is justlike talking about like, hey, I
need this or I want this.
I think that's probably what ledto some of like the said led to
things.
SPEAKER_03 (10:19):
And that can be a deeply vulnerable and tough
thing to say to a partner is Ineed this, I'm not getting the
yeah.
That's a tough conversation.
SPEAKER_00 (10:29):
Yeah.
And I mean, I didn't know it atthe time.
Like no, I didn't.
But like when she finally saidsomething to me about it, she
was already having an affair.
Yeah, it's like it was too late.
I didn't know there was anaffair going on, but that was
like probably driving that fromher.
But at the same time, it's like,fuck you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (10:44):
So okay.
Someone says the word affair,your mind immediately goes to
divorce.
What happened?
SPEAKER_00 (10:50):
Oh God, it's been such a long, it's a long road
and it's still ongoing.
So to set the stage, like, sowe're still separated, not
divorced.
We've been separated almost twoyears now, it feels like we
initially were gonna getdivorced, started talking to
lawyers, getting everything inorder, blah, blah, blah.
And then I think at some pointshe kind of came back to me and
(11:12):
was like, we need to try to seeif we can make this work and
like actually like go to couplestherapy because we didn't we
didn't really give it a shot.
I was like, okay, I understandyour point.
Because like I very much wentthrough all the emotions, right?
Like, fuck you, we're done.
And then I mean, God, you haveall the stages of grief, right?
SPEAKER_03 (11:29):
And I don't know if you felt this, but they came to
me in like random waves.
Yeah.
I'd be like crying at the gymbecause something would hit me.
SPEAKER_00 (11:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (11:37):
Very much stages of grief.
SPEAKER_00 (11:39):
I probably never thought anything about them
until then you kind of go backand you look at them, you're
like, yeah, I definitely dip allof those.
Uh so it's not trying toremember where I was going with
that.
SPEAKER_03 (11:49):
Um, okay, she she came back to you and said Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (11:53):
Basically, let's go to Cumbles Fairing.
I thought she was sincere, therewas crying, and I kind of found
out later.
I don't want to say it wasbullshit, but it kind of was
bullshit.
I don't want to say playing me.
Like she came to me because likeshe got in a fight with the
person that she was having anaffair with.
It kind of made her realize thatI think she was being stupid.
Wait, no shit.
SPEAKER_03 (12:13):
Hey, guess what?
The grass isn't greener.
SPEAKER_00 (12:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I hear you.
I hear you.
Right.
But also, like, my own part waslike, can we talk about this and
move forward?
At this point, like I startedgoing to therapy as well and
talking with my own therapist.
Again, guys, go to therapy.
SPEAKER_04 (12:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:29):
I will recommend it for everyone.
Uh, I should probably shouldhave started off with that,
right?
Like, guys, men go to therapy.
Talk to people.
It's just good to talk.
SPEAKER_03 (12:38):
This podcast is brought to you by therapy.
SPEAKER_00 (12:41):
I still go once a month.
Now we just talk about anything,right?
It's just great.
Yeah.
Um, so all right, go back.
But yeah, just like never gavethat a chance.
And I kind of wanted to see, isthere actually still something
there?
Do I feel like she's actuallysorry?
I thought she was.
The thing that always killed itto me was there were still like
snippets of conversation goingon with her and FBI.
SPEAKER_03 (13:05):
How did you know this?
SPEAKER_00 (13:07):
I frankly was just like, have you talked to him?
Oh, okay.
Honesty.
It was like it was text oremail, and I'm like, this can't
keep going on.
What am I doing?
I'm like, I'm not going totherapy and wasting my time if
this is still gonna happen.
SPEAKER_03 (13:20):
You're not giving us a fair chance.
SPEAKER_00 (13:22):
Exactly.
So I don't know, it kind of wentback and forth for a while.
Probably too long.
And then finally we got to thispoint like, let's just separate.
This is stupid.
I'm tired of doing this.
Let's just separate and see ifthat changes anything.
I would always kind of been ofthe mind.
I don't want to separate becauseit's just like pre-divorced.
(13:42):
I'd rather just get divorced.
And then I'm not sure whatchanged my mind.
Uh well, I probably do know.
I got laid off during all thistoo.
So, like, I like a total doublewhammy, right?
SPEAKER_03 (13:54):
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (13:56):
So not only I'm dealing with that, then I get
laid off.
So now I'm dealing with thewhole work trying to find a job.
It's like, well, fuck, I can'tjust like move out, because if I
move out, I'll haveunemployment, and that's it.
I don't want to say like she wassupporting me because like she
wasn't necessarily just likesupporting me.
So we started out by doing in afilm living together separated.
SPEAKER_03 (14:19):
Yeah, that's a thing.
SPEAKER_00 (14:20):
Totally, it's a thing.
Does it not work as well as youhad to see?
We would eat dinner togetherjust because for our daughter's
sake, it was right, so-and-so isresponsible for her bedtime
tonight.
We were sleeping in differentbedrooms, we were not hanging
out together in the evening, wewere completely separate.
Our early communication wasessentially getting our daughter
to school.
(14:40):
And then finally we kind of werelike, This isn't working.
Which it was because it we werejust around each other too much.
SPEAKER_03 (14:48):
But yeah, you're also in survival.
Yeah, like you especially werein survival mode.
I get that.
Yeah, just it's like one day tothe next.
Yeah, just trying to get throughthe day.
SPEAKER_00 (15:02):
Yeah, it sucked too because like being unemployed, I
would spend my days like, I'mjust looking for jobs.
She felt like I wasn't lookingfor jobs as I wasn't doing it
the way she would do it.
So that annoyed her and made herresent me more.
And I'm like, fuck you.
Like, I'm getting tons ofinterviews.
I'm just haven't been able toget a job yet.
I'm sorry.
(15:22):
Your way isn't necessarily thebest way, right?
SPEAKER_03 (15:24):
Like on top of an affair bomb that you just
dropped on me.
SPEAKER_00 (15:29):
Yeah.
We kind of came to the pointwhere like this isn't working.
I was like, yeah, I'm gonna moveout, right?
Like, I want to move out.
And we figured out a way to makeit work.
So we're financially, it's like,here's some money.
You've got this much money, likemove out.
Luckily, right about that timewe decided to do that.
I did land a job.
Thankfully.
All right, now I can move out.
Great.
(15:50):
I moved out on my own.
Um, I got the dog.
Only I get the dog is the dogloves me more.
Like, I'm the dog's person.
SPEAKER_03 (15:56):
Same.
SPEAKER_00 (15:57):
Um, yeah.
Like, but she still will watch,she's watching the dog now.
Uh, I think our daughter thoughtat first it was cool because,
like, oh, we have two houses.
But I think the hard part waslike when she's like, why can't
we just live together?
Like, it's like she doesn'tfully understand it yet.
And I think you still see partsfrom her where she's sad and
just wants the other one.
(16:19):
And I think that's that's beenreally hard.
But I being separated, I think,has taught me a lot about
myself.
Well, like, I don't know what ittaught me a lot about.
Well, that's sorry.
SPEAKER_03 (16:27):
I do it does.
SPEAKER_00 (16:28):
No, it does.
It gave me like what I need oflike, yeah, I'm gonna be okay.
That's like what it is.
Like, I don't need you.
Because I think initially whenyou're going through everything,
I think I was scared.
Yeah, it's so much unknown.
I mean, not just financial,right?
We both had good jobs and likewe were doing well to where it's
like, yeah, we weren't worryingabout money on a week-to-week
(16:51):
basis, right?
And now I'm going down to onepaycheck.
And I like, yeah, I gotta payattention a little closer.
I can't just be spending as muchas I was.
But yeah, so I think there wasjust there's a lot of scaredness
and fear.
I mean, not to mention the wholeaffair.
Am I good enough looking?
Like the self-confidence level,right?
SPEAKER_04 (17:10):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (17:10):
You think you're the reason.
So it's just all like compoundall the things you think about.
So it felt like a big kick inthe nuts.
SPEAKER_04 (17:17):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (17:19):
I think just kind of when I moved out, I I kind of
just got to this point whereit's like, I'm gonna be okay.
SPEAKER_03 (17:24):
You had been through enough shit that it takes you
down a peg or two, but it alsooddly kind of like builds your
confidence.
SPEAKER_00 (17:35):
Yes.
Like there was like almost likethis freeing aspect too of oh, I
can go do this.
That's awesome.
Like, because I think before myone of my favorite hobbies is
golf, right?
I would feel guilty leaving forsix hours in the day.
Like, I'm guilty leaving you andour child.
I felt guilty about that.
Now I'm like, oh, I don't havethat responsibility.
I can go do this, I can go dothe things that I love to do.
(17:58):
And I can go skiing, just doingthe things that I enjoy doing.
And there's no guilt or but Idon't feel like I'm missing
anything about it.
Like I'm just happy and livingmy own life.
SPEAKER_03 (18:10):
Yeah.
Our stories are oddly similar.
Move to an entirely new city forthe spouse's other job.
Have to acclimate and rebuild.
Now, yours is different in thatit sounds like you found out
because she told you.
I found out through credit cardsand cell phones.
(18:30):
So I would have led this genesaw puzzle together.
SPEAKER_00 (18:35):
But it sounds like she I wasn't going like all like
PI.
I had thought perhaps somethingcould be going on.
But I was like, I wasn't likesuper like paranoid about it or
anything.
SPEAKER_03 (18:46):
Like you trust this person.
SPEAKER_00 (18:48):
Yeah, right.
Exactly.
But yeah, then I did found out,and yeah, like as soon as I
confronted her, we came rightout.
Gotcha.
SPEAKER_03 (18:57):
I don't know how you felt because my timeline was
different, where I found outafter I had already filed, and
that was the reason for themonths and months and months of
odd behavior.
But when I found out it was anaffair, people have asked me,
Well, did you feel like?
(19:17):
Like you weren't good enough.
You that and I was like, no,actually, I had an opposite
feeling.
It felt like I was carryingaround this weighted vest that
it was my fault of what washappening.
And when I found out, I waslike, haha, no, no, no, no, no,
no.
Nope.
I'm taking this weighted vestoff.
I'm putting it on you.
This is your bullshit, yourthing.
(19:38):
You need to go.
I know enough about affairs toknow that it's the other person.
It's not me.
But what'd you feel?
SPEAKER_00 (19:46):
Obviously, like there was a lot of anger knowing
that it was going on.
And I still sometimes findmyself being like pissed off.
SPEAKER_03 (19:52):
Same, right?
Like you blew up our lives.
SPEAKER_00 (19:55):
Yeah.
I think the hardest part for meis I feel like it's always been
somehow my fault.
Like it's almost like she'sblaming, she's blamed me for
everything versus just taking.
Like she says she tookaccountability.
Okay, you took accountability bysaying, Yes, I had an affair.
Congrats.
Then you kind of lied to me tosay, all right, let's go to
therapy and see if this canwork.
(20:15):
But at the same time, you stillfelt so entitled to where like
you could have a conversationwith him still and not fully be
into this.
It's eye-opening for me of like,you weren't necessarily always
the person like I thought youwere.
So I'll come back and say likeselfish.
I think yes, a fair is probablyinherently selfish, but just
like there's a lot ofselfishness around like just
(20:36):
everything you do.
And I did a lot.
Yeah, you did a lot too, otherways, but like don't fucking act
like you did everything and Idid nothing.
That's bullshit.
SPEAKER_03 (20:45):
So for you to go out at a fair and like I think
that's something that I've hadto accept is there's some things
you just never know.
And even if my ex were honest tome, and if if I were to shake
and be like, what the fuck wereyou thinking?
What like I may never trulyknow, and that's something
that's kind of tough to accept,but you kind of have to.
SPEAKER_00 (21:07):
I don't know that I want to know though either.
SPEAKER_03 (21:09):
No, I wouldn't.
I wanted to know.
Yeah.
That's your depositions.
SPEAKER_00 (21:14):
I mean, I guess for me it was like fair enough.
Like you told me you're havingfriends, that's all I needed to
know.
Like I didn't need to know.
I think I maybe initially I did,but now it's like I'm further
away from it.
I'm like, I don't care anymore.
As we talked about things, all Iever asked you was just to like
show me that you want the onethat you be with.
And like you failed to do that.
That felt like the most basicthing you could do.
(21:36):
You had an affair to prove to methat you actually still do love
me.
SPEAKER_03 (21:39):
And it's just like I'm sorry.
Yeah, that sucks.
I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_00 (21:45):
It does, but I don't know.
SPEAKER_03 (21:47):
How do you just kind of move on and so going through
a divorce or even separating,there is the emotional side of
things, and then there's thebusiness side of things where
you have to get shit.
In order and learn things, oryou know, what whatever have
you.
What did you had to learn orprepare as you gear up for the
(22:08):
process or as you're in theprocess?
SPEAKER_00 (22:11):
Um, I don't know if I was learn anything.
SPEAKER_03 (22:15):
Like I'll say for me, I was not very astute on our
finances.
Like I didn't spend willy-nilly,but as far as how the stock
vests over time, like I didn'tknow that stuff.
So I had to get a much betterunderstanding of the finances.
I know a lot of women that haveto do that.
SPEAKER_00 (22:34):
Yeah, like I mean, uh like she did pay all the
bills.
But again, I wasn't justspending like crazy.
And like I was very familiar, Iknew what was in the bank
account, right?
Like I knew what was on thecredit card statement.
Like, I knew how much I kneweverything.
She always took theresponsibility of wanting to pay
the bills.
Like it was her thing.
And I was like, okay, like takeit.
Yes, paying bills and payingeven closer attention to what I
(22:56):
was spending on was I'll say alittle more, especially going
down to like one income.
SPEAKER_03 (23:00):
Yeah, that's the thing.
Right.
From splitting everything to nowI'm paying for the entire
Netflix bill and all that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:05):
Yeah, like I'm not like I'm not saving as much as I
would like to, right?
That's sucks.
But to live too.
Right.
So I I don't know.
I don't want to say it was alearning because I'm an adult.
I know how to pay bills and Iknow how to track my finances.
But it was helpful to be like,all right, now I'm even closer
to it than I was.
SPEAKER_03 (23:25):
Yeah.
I got even closer to thefinances than when I was.
SPEAKER_00 (23:28):
I don't know.
Maybe the other it's just likehow I spent my time, right?
SPEAKER_03 (23:31):
That's spending money and spending time.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:33):
Yeah, because like because there's a lot more,
there's just downtime.
Because we're the like de factodivorce, right?
We have a parenting plan.
I don't have my daughter 50% ofthe time.
So it's like, all right, what amI gonna do this Saturday with me
and the dog?
I gotta go figure out what todo.
Oh, I can sleep in.
Just figuring out those things.
(23:53):
I love watching football orsoccer or sports, but I'm also
like, I don't want to sit thereall day.
I get bored.
SPEAKER_03 (23:59):
You're absolutely right.
And another male guest made acomment.
You're going from two to one.
It's just math.
You will be lonely.
You will have downtime.
SPEAKER_00 (24:09):
There's been times where I'm just like 8:30.
I'm like, I'm just gonna go tobed.
I don't know.
In a way, it's also kind of nicebecause getting lots of sleep,
why should I just stay up andwatch another hour of Netflix?
Because I'm just like bored andlonely, I'm just gonna go to
bed.
SPEAKER_03 (24:21):
So you mentioned earlier and getting over your
fears.
What were some of the biggestchallenges and fears that you
overcame through this?
SPEAKER_00 (24:32):
I mean, the biggest one I think was like just
self-confidence.
I don't know.
Like it very much felt like I'mjust not good enough.
Yeah.
And it was just like this, likeI said, kick in the nuts, right?
That was probably the biggestone and the hardest one.
SPEAKER_03 (24:47):
Let's dig into that.
SPEAKER_00 (24:48):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (24:49):
How did you how did I overcome?
Yeah, like so.
Then how did you either rebuildyour self-confidence or let go
of any, like she doesn't haveany bearing on my
self-confidence?
Like, how how did you come toaccept your own self-confidence?
SPEAKER_00 (25:08):
I started digging.
SPEAKER_03 (25:09):
Oh okay, on a left field.
SPEAKER_00 (25:12):
Um, but I think that all right, so that that was the
for me, it was like I wasexpecting I wouldn't go to the
gym and I would I mean I don'tknow.
I just great Yeah, I went to thegym and did all the things I
love, and that was awesome.
But I I maybe I don't know, Itook it personally that I wasn't
good enough.
And I like I signed up for thedating apps, right?
And it was just like, yeah, no,people like me.
SPEAKER_02 (25:34):
Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (25:35):
Like, or it's like, yeah, like people do find me
attractive still.
That was part of it.
It kind of gave me that like, Idon't know, there's like that
that reassurance of yeah, I'mgonna be okay.
I'm not gonna be lonely forever,right?
Like I very much have beendating.
Now, in my like telling people,yeah, I'm not actually divorced,
I'm separated.
Kind of a deal breaker for a lotof women.
(25:56):
And like I get that.
I went on dates with women whoare also just separated.
SPEAKER_03 (25:59):
Yeah.
It's a spectrum.
SPEAKER_00 (26:01):
Yeah, right.
But it's also like, I just wantto go have a good time, meet
people.
And like that's something I'vebeen able to do, and it's been a
lot of fun just meeting newpeople, especially since it's so
different now.
We're not just like going to abar and picking someone up.
SPEAKER_03 (26:13):
I I have yet to actually be on the app, so I
don't know.
Oh, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (26:16):
Swipe left, swipe right.
You're missing out.
I've heard no, you're it's thethey're they're like a blessing
and a curse because like it'sthose make things so easy.
But also then you're also like,this is overwhelming.
I hate this.
And then you're like, I have tolog off for months.
But back to that, like, yeah,that definitely helped my
self-confidence.
SPEAKER_03 (26:35):
Good for you.
Um okay, so self-confidence waslike a challenge or a fear.
What else?
SPEAKER_00 (26:42):
I mean, definitely the money, the financial
standpoint, you know, having ajob helps with that.
And I I mean I kind of talkedabout it earlier.
I'm just you know, a little moreconscious of what I'm spending
my money on.
Do I need this new shirt?
No, I probably don't need itright now, right?
Like I can wait.
Not having my daughter aroundall the time.
Like I didn't have a kid to belike a part-time parent.
SPEAKER_04 (27:04):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (27:05):
And I felt like now like I'm forced into it.
And it's not what I signed upfor, and like that sucks.
And I feel like I miss things.
Yeah.
So that is frustrating.
And like when she has a sportingevent or anything, like I'm
always gonna be her.
SPEAKER_03 (27:21):
That's a that's a biggie.
SPEAKER_00 (27:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:24):
How do you kind of accept the new normal, so to
speak?
SPEAKER_00 (27:30):
I mean, it took some time to get used to, for sure.
I will admit, like the cuttingof hay.
Um because like I said, she'salways been a bad sleeper and
was always like, it's 6 30 on aSaturday, let's wake up.
No, let's go back to bed.
You feel like you missed things.
Feels weird saying, like, shefinally just learned how to ride
her bike without trainingwheels.
(27:50):
But like, I missed it becausebike's at mom's house.
Yeah, like she sent me a videoand everything, but like I felt
like I missed it.
Yeah.
And like she didn't want me tocome over and show me, and I
did, because we still live closeenough to where like it's easy
to get there within five, tenminutes.
Yeah.
But it's like, yeah, like thelittle moments you kind of miss.
So, but then I mean, I know itgoes the other way too.
Like, I have moments with hershe misses out on.
(28:12):
Yeah, like that was that was ahard one.
I was frustrated because I feltlike I I didn't want to be
forced into that situation whereI wasn't gonna see her all the
time.
SPEAKER_03 (28:20):
Yeah, you didn't sign up for this.
SPEAKER_00 (28:23):
It sucks, but then also like having that ability to
be like, nope, here's what I'mgonna go do.
I'm gonna go do it.
I got over that guilt of beinggone all day because I'm doing
the things that I love makes mehappy.
SPEAKER_03 (28:36):
You've got the time to do the things that you enjoy
doing.
That sound like it helped youthrough this process.
What other uh tools or resourcesdid you utilize?
SPEAKER_00 (28:50):
I mean, therapy.
SPEAKER_03 (28:51):
Yeah, we've we talked about therapy.
For sure.
SPEAKER_00 (28:53):
I mean, yeah, like that's that is when that was a
big one, right?
Like it's just just so helpfulto just have that neutral party
and just to talk about likeanything and everything.
Feel like happy gilmore here.
Go to my happy place, right?
I kept remembering myself, like,do the things that make you
happy.
What are those things?
All right, like when I would goto these places and do these
(29:14):
things, it's like my mind wasjust free and clear.
And like I wasn't focused onanything else except like at the
time like working out or likewhen I was hitting golf balls.
It's all I was trying to do.
It was like freeing.
I kept doing these things moreand more and more and more.
And like it gave me thatreminder like you're okay.
And like as you keep doing them,you have fun and you have that
(29:37):
joy again.
So I think those are two of thethings for me.
But then I also like I fell backin love with skiing past year.
Uh I hadn't been in a while.
Not like I'd go do it by myself,but like just going out there,
like being at the top of themountain, just like the fresh
air, the snow, the beauty, beingable to just fall in love with
(29:57):
something that you hadn't donein like 15 years.
SPEAKER_03 (30:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:01):
It like like following love with something
all over again.
SPEAKER_03 (30:04):
It sounds like in your examples, it's things or
activities that take you out ofthe muck of it and give you a
sense of perspective.
SPEAKER_00 (30:15):
Yeah, that's a good way to put it.
Yeah, like doing stuff.
Doing stuff.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (30:19):
I went to I did stuff.
Same.
I did all the things and it wasusually 95% by myself.
And I think it it also buildsthat self-confidence.
Like I can do these things bymyself.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:33):
And it's I can still get better about it.
Might have mostly moral for likesporting things, but you can do
those by yourself.
But I've never had things like,yeah, I'm gonna go out to eat.
I'm gonna take myself out toeat.
Yeah.
Like I don't mind.
Find the things that make youhappy and do them.
Like you said, like it took youout of all the shit and all the
muck.
And it did make you happy.
(30:54):
And like then, like more andmore you kept doing them, you've
just further and furtherremoved.
unknown (30:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:58):
And now you're just happy.
unknown (31:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:00):
I don't know.
Maybe that's how I felt.
SPEAKER_02 (31:02):
I would just like to caveat right there.
You know, do things that makeyou happy through the lens of
health and wellness.
Stop out.
SPEAKER_00 (31:09):
Yes.
Do not just turn to alcohol ordrugs.
Because that's also very easy todo.
SPEAKER_02 (31:13):
It is.
SPEAKER_00 (31:14):
Like, it is very easy just to be like, Yeah, oh,
I'm pissed.
I'm gonna have 12 beers now orwhatever.
And yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (31:22):
Or something good happened.
I'm gonna have a drink.
Or something bad happened.
I'm gonna have a drink.
Or it's Tuesday, I'm gonna havea drink.
So, okay, you're an active guy.
How did you maintain your healthand wellness during this?
SPEAKER_00 (31:35):
When it first happened, man, like the anxiety
and uh I don't know, depression.
Maybe a little bit ofdepression, probably just
through the roof.
I lost like 20 pounds justbecause like I wasn't eating.
I did too.
Yeah.
I did so nervous and everything.
SPEAKER_03 (31:51):
And it was 20 pounds of like muscle.
It was yeah, like it was alsolost weight.
SPEAKER_00 (31:55):
Yeah, I was like, holy shit.
And like I was down to like aweight.
I'm like, I haven't seen thisprobably since like eighth
grade.
Oh my god, right?
But like you said, like, yeah,it was like muscle.
So like that was definitely nothealthy.
Uh, but that was also for like Iwasn't eating because I was just
so yeah, I didn't feel like it,like I was anxious.
I was so blah blah blah.
I haven't never I didn't reallyhave depression a ton, but I was
(32:17):
very anxious.
And like my anxiety was throughthe roof.
So like it helped just to takethe anti depress I guess the
antidepressant.
Yeah.
And like I don't I don't evenknow that I I really need it a
ton, but like it just it doeshelp.
SPEAKER_03 (32:32):
So you were back in the gym doing those things, but
then also you were going totherapy, and then also you were
getting additional support.
SPEAKER_00 (32:39):
Yeah, like the gym was helpful.
I mean, therapy was helped methe most remind remind myself to
make sure I'm being healthystill.
She always made sure, like, hey,what's going on?
Let's talk about what's goingon.
And then it's always likereminded me, like, what are you
doing to make you happy?
You love to cook.
Like, go make yourself anawesome meal today, right?
Like, what do you want?
Go make something.
Don't just sit there and drink abunch, right?
(33:01):
Like, which I never really did.
I actually probably starteddrinking less initially because
we would oftentimes have abottle of wine afterwards and
share a bottle of wine.
It was like, well, it'ssomething we did together.
I don't want to do that anymore.
Something a good thing was Idrank less.
SPEAKER_03 (33:14):
Yeah, yeah.
As you reflect back, anythingthat you would have done
differently as it relates toyour health?
SPEAKER_00 (33:22):
I don't know.
I feel like in general, like Iwas pretty good.
I think I did all the rightthings.
Um yes, I wish I would have notlost a bunch of weight, but like
I think that was just I can'tforce myself to eat if I'm not
hungry because I'm so anxiousand yeah nervous, right?
I was pretty healthy.
(33:43):
I mean, I wasn't sleeping great.
I tried smoking pot to like helpme go to bed.
Didn't really help that much.
It's legal in Washington,everybody, so it's fine.
Uh but I was like tryingdifferent things, but I just
need to sleep because I just wasso anxious I couldn't get my
mind to turn off.
Yeah.
So that drove a lot of things.
(34:03):
Uh maybe like the most unhealthything was just like I couldn't
sleep.
SPEAKER_03 (34:07):
And the sleep is one of those things that like you
can't force yourself to sleep.
Like you can force yourself tomaybe eat a little something.
Yeah.
You can force yourself to go tothe gym.
Yeah.
You can't force yourself to goto sleep.
I I feel yeah, yeah.
My sleep was impacted as well.
SPEAKER_00 (34:23):
Not great.
Not great.
SPEAKER_03 (34:25):
And then you get on this cycle of you're going to
bed so late, so you're wakingup.
It's just, it's, it's a cycle.
But um, a bomb is dropped onyou, your life explodes around
you, you're in the ashes of theremains.
What values crystallized for yougoing through this?
SPEAKER_00 (34:46):
I mean, very much trust.
SPEAKER_03 (34:48):
Yeah.
Trust and honesty.
I hear yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (34:52):
I don't think that I could ever going forward.
I don't think I could ever bewith someone that like cheated.
If someone was in a previousrelationship and had an affair
and they they were the personthat did it, like there would
just be like traumatic remainsthere.
Yeah.
And that would, I don't know, itwould always linger.
I just don't think I could dothat.
Um, so that's probably somethingfor sure.
(35:12):
But then I I mean I probably didlearn the value more of
communication through all this,not only myself, but like the
people around me.
And kind of going back to thebeginning, how I talked about
that macho feeling.
I can be vulnerable and it'sokay to like actually talk about
my feelings if I'm like, noteverything's good.
I don't know how to portraythis, everything's always great.
(35:34):
You know, like I can actuallycry or talk about I'm worried or
sad or you know, very anxiousentirely.
It's all okay for myself, thatcommunication and ability to
share.
Like you feel like your partner,you're a safe space with them,
right?
And I think that's somethingthat I need going forward and I
want going forward.
And I don't, you know, I don'twant to feel like I'm walking on
(35:54):
eggshells always.
SPEAKER_03 (35:56):
Yeah.
Um so you recognize thatalthough this like happened to
me, there's maybe some thingsthat I need to change about
myself.
Like, how did you change?
SPEAKER_00 (36:08):
I came back to like the self-confidence part, right?
I was never not confident, butlike I'm also not walking around
like the most confident guy inthe room, right?
Like I don't, you know,regaining that and then it's not
like learning about myself andyou know, learning like I think
I would have been able to maybeforgive and like maybe move past
this, but it wasn't there on theother end.
(36:30):
And like, well, I maybeeventually forgive.
Yeah, maybe eventually.
SPEAKER_03 (36:35):
I hear you on the forgiveness piece.
Yeah.
That is a struggle.
I've I've come up with this likespectrum where on the like on
the left hand side it'sacceptance and on the right hand
side it's forgiveness.
And it's almost like you tickalong the way.
Can I accept that you're a liar?
(36:56):
Yeah, I can accept that.
Can I accept that you're adouchebag?
Yeah, I can accept that.
Like, can I accept that you're aflawed human being?
Uh yeah, I can accept that.
And it kind of like moves itsway to forgiveness.
And I know that they sayforgiveness is more about you
(37:18):
like letting go than it is theother person, but my there's
still like But you're I mean,you're right.
SPEAKER_00 (37:25):
Like, I went on this like acceptance path a while
ago.
Yeah, it's like I accepted we'renot gonna be together.
You know what?
That's fine.
And I accepted like all thesethings, like great.
But like, yeah, there's stillthat like anger of, you know,
I'm not really forgive you forwhat you did.
Um, but that's okay.
Like it it'll get there at somepoint, and I know that, but you
(37:45):
until then, you're just like youaccept it and move on.
SPEAKER_03 (37:48):
Yeah.
Is we just gonna like wrap up?
And you seem to be in a goodplace now.
We've we've gone the therapy andtalked about all the things and
even though did the drugs andnot know.
SPEAKER_00 (38:01):
Did the drugs.
SPEAKER_03 (38:03):
If you could go back and have a conversation with the
I just got kicked in the nuts,Matt, what would you tell him?
What would this version tellthat version?
SPEAKER_00 (38:16):
I mean, my first initial reaction is it's all
gonna be okay.
And I know it that sounds sosimple, but like you said, it's
like when you get kicked in thenuts, they're like your mind is
going a thousand differentdirections, and you have all
those worry and fear, and itjust brings the anxiety and blah
(38:37):
blah blah, right?
You're gonna be okay.
I feel like I'm one like JackAndy or it's like I am good
enough.
And darn it, people like me, uhright.
But but it's true.
I am good enough as a person,right?
People do find me attractive.
Your self-confidence shouldremain intact.
Like you didn't do anythingwrong and just kind of like
(38:58):
remember those things that arejust gonna be super helpful.
SPEAKER_03 (39:01):
So yeah, it's easy to say now, but like Yeah, when
you're in the thick of it, it'shard.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (39:07):
I like to think that like I was aware of this, like
it's gonna be okay, but you alsodon't know.
So there is a little bit of thelike that fear.
But like, truly, like it isgonna be okay, and it is all
actually gonna work out.
And like I always say thatusually about everything.
I try to live very positive onthat one.
Like, even with when I lost myjob, right?
Like, I'm like, it's gonna workout, it's gonna be okay.
(39:27):
Yeah, and sure enough,everything did work out okay.
It's it took longer than Iwanted, but it was okay.
Everything worked out.
SPEAKER_03 (39:34):
So And now having that experience, I don't know if
you feel this, but I feel likeother hurdles that come along,
it's like, well, it worked outlast time, it's gonna work out
this time.
SPEAKER_00 (39:43):
Yeah, it's like you if you got through that, you can
get through anything.
SPEAKER_03 (39:46):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (39:47):
Yes, for sure.
Very much.
SPEAKER_03 (39:49):
I mean, that's a great way to end, I guess, is
what do you want people to takeaway from hearing your story?
SPEAKER_00 (39:55):
You're stronger than you think you are, and you're
gonna be okay.
SPEAKER_03 (40:01):
Well, thank you for talking with me and sharing your
story.
Again, sorry you had to gothrough that.
It fucking sucks.
SPEAKER_00 (40:10):
But we're both okay.
SPEAKER_03 (40:10):
But we're both okay.
We're both okay.
And we're in divorce clubs.
SPEAKER_01 (40:13):
Thanks for listening to Bitter or Better, where we
turn heartbreak into healing andsurvival into strength.
As Brene Brown says,vulnerability is the last thing
we want to show, but the firstthing we look for in others.
That's what this is all about.
Real people showing up, sharingtheir stories, and reminding the
rest of us that we're not alone.
(40:34):
This episode for the next video,share it with someone who might
need to start.
And remember, you have a choice.
The first or best.
Stay next time for more realstories, real people, and real
resilient.
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