July 23, 2026 • 59 mins
Navigating marriage when critical information is kept in the dark drains every ounce of your energy, leaving you second-guessing your own reality. Moving across the globe and facing a chronic illness diagnosis only amplifies that isolation, forcing you to question everything you built your life around. In this episode, host Abby sits down with her long-time college friend Sarah, who shares her raw experience with diplomatic life overseas, dealing with a surprise Multiple Sclerosis diagnosis far from home, and navigating a painful separation where open communication was completely absent.
We sit down to talk through the difficult transition of living as a government spouse with strict boundaries on what could be shared, raising three small children in foreign cities, and facing an health crisis without an immediate support network. Sarah breaks down the subtle reality of emotional disconnection, the fallout of high-school flame emails, and the intense logistical gymnastics of moving back to the United States while living under her in-laws' roof. She opens up about her personal turning point when she recognized that holding onto kindness in a high-conflict split required setting strict internal boundaries rather than managing her ex-partner's reactions.
Rebuilding an identity after a quiet breakdown is not clean, fast, or comfortable. It demands letting go of how you thought your life was going to look, handling legal friction with an ex who refuses to cooperate, and processing the emotional weight of shared custody when you have no family living nearby. The practical takeaways lie in learning how to honor your daily physical limitations, utilizing forced alone time as a tool to recharge rather than a punishment, and stepping directly into your 4.0 or 6.0 version with zero apologies.
If you care about emotional recovery after betrayal, managing health crises during life shifts, and building true self-advocacy, you will get a lot from this episode. Make sure to subscribe to the channel and share this conversation with a friend who might be sitting in their own quiet season of isolation. What is the biggest lesson you have learned about trusting your own voice when someone tried to convince you that you were crazy?
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome to Butter or Better, Real Stories of Divorce
and Metallica, the podcast thatgets real about the messy middle
of divorce and what it takes tocome out stronger on the other
side.
I'm your host, Bobby Ingle,Marketer, National Four
Certified Alpha Monster Coach,and author of the upcoming book,
Butter for Better.
And I've personally earnedmydeivor.
(00:56):
You are not alone.
Let's hear someone else's storyand see what resonates.
SPEAKER_02 (01:01):
I'm here in Chicagoland with my college
friend.
And I'm so excited.
SPEAKER_00 (01:09):
Will you uh introduce who you are for our
listeners?
Yeah, my name is Sarah.
I live in the Chicagoland Metrooutside.
SPEAKER_02 (01:19):
I don't even know like where Chicagoland starts
and ends.
SPEAKER_00 (01:22):
I would say this is the furthest out that you could
maybe say Chicagoland.
SPEAKER_02 (01:27):
Okay.
I don't know.
I'm not a native.
Oh, so you don't even you don'teven have an official I don't
care.
unknown (01:34):
I know I'm just kidding.
SPEAKER_02 (01:36):
I do tell people from northern Illinois, hey,
there's a whole southern part ofthe state, which is where I'm
from, that is also Illinois, andthey're like, never heard of it.
They really haven't though.
SPEAKER_00 (01:50):
I know.
They think this is like farms,and while it is, it's a pretty
perfect little mix.
I have three pretty cool kids.
Keep me busy.
I work out of my home, been allover.
We're gonna talk about whereyou've been.
SPEAKER_02 (02:11):
The first question I ask people is why on earth they
are willing to sit down with meand open up a deeply hard,
traumatic chapter of theirlives.
SPEAKER_00 (02:26):
Okay, let um be honest.
So I agreed on me-jerk becauseyou asked me and I can't say no
to you.
Good to know.
And then I thought about it.
I thought about how lonely Iwas.
Even just this week and thinkingand preparing and you know,
(02:47):
anticipation.
I thought about how I am theonly friend I have that is
divorced.
When I needed someone to talkto, I I didn't have anyone who
could understand, and the peoplethat I did have, while very
supportive, wanted me to fixthings that I could not control
(03:09):
or fix.
So I think if there are morevoices out there just supporting
each other, knowing we're notalone, I felt very alone.
SPEAKER_02 (03:21):
Thank you for being so vulnerable in sharing that.
And thank you for recognizingthis is what I went through.
If I can be a voice for someoneelse who also feels alone, then
maybe they feel less alone byhearing my story.
SPEAKER_00 (03:38):
I think having grown up, well, I grew up everywhere,
moving every two years or so,but growing up in very religious
families, going through thisprocess has been very difficult.
SPEAKER_02 (03:53):
We'll definitely get into how others looking in and
not actually being in yourmarriage affected how how
everything I hold someresponsibility in that.
So I think we all do.
For sure.
As much as we don't want toadmit it.
Well, let's rewind the clock.
(04:14):
If you can tell us how you guysmet, what attracted you to each
other, kind of the the earlydays.
SPEAKER_00 (04:30):
We had this little girl posse, four of us.
We went out one night.
I was the sober driver.
Yeah, we kind of just bar hoppedin this little area of Kansas
City.
We heard there was a bachelorparty at another bar.
So me and one girl were like, wegotta go over there.
(04:54):
And yeah, I met my ex-husband.
He was not part of that party,he was there.
And quite honestly, it was thedrunkest I've ever seen the man.
I am attracted to people who areinteresting.
Okay, what made him interesting?
He was this very physically likevery built man.
(05:18):
Turns out he was a bodybuilder.
Not why I was interested in himat at all.
Didn't even notice that.
My friend told me that later,like he had really big arm
muscles.
It's like weird.
Um, he was really into likemusicals, and so we were at the
bar talking about musicaltheater, and I was like,
(05:41):
fascinating.
This person is so interesting,just chit chatting about the
usual things that you talk aboutat bars is musical theater, of
course, in in mid west in theMidwest, of course.
What else are you gonna talkabout?
He was just fascinating to me.
He wasn't like anyone else, hadvery good conversation.
He asked for my number, and thenwe went out and I was messaging
(06:05):
with our mutual friend.
I was like, I'm I honestly don'tremember what he looks like.
And my other friend was like,Well, he has huge arms.
So you don't even remember whathe looks like.
I don't, and I was sober.
It was the conversation.
Yeah.
I really like people who have astory to tell, and here's this
guy, this rowdy bar.
SPEAKER_02 (06:26):
If we fast forward the clock, describe the marriage
and the family dynamic.
SPEAKER_00 (06:33):
It didn't start off well.
I thought, wow, we beat theodds, we've made it.
We were engaged and we moved hegot a job up here actually.
So I followed him.
We lived in this really niceapartment complex, you know,
things were going really well.
Something was just off.
(06:53):
Things were just not somethingwas off, things were weird.
SPEAKER_02 (06:58):
Things were off before you got married?
SPEAKER_00 (07:01):
Oh yes.
SPEAKER_02 (07:01):
Oh, okay, okay.
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:02):
So before the story, it got really bad.
There was just so much dramawith our parents and planning
the wedding, and I thought itwas all just like wedding
planning and all this stuff, butit was so much more and so much
deeper that I I was naive and Ididn't know everything.
So I actually called off ourwedding.
(07:24):
I moved.
I had a a dear friend who savedme.
Her dad had a place.
I I lived in this not greatplace, but I was on my own.
And then his sister had textedme, and I just reached out to
him, and that's kind of how wegot back.
He was keeping a very big secretfrom me, and everyone knew, his
(07:44):
whole family knew.
So I do think that they had goodintentions, but when you're the
only one who doesn't know, yourmind fills in the blanks.
Your mind will create stories.
Right.
And so I created a story thateverybody hated me, and it was
really that he was hidingsomething from me, and I needed
to know.
(08:05):
So once we got back talking, wewent through therapy, we
obviously got married.
We ran off, like not ran off, wehad planned it.
We went to Vegas and gotmarried.
I know, can you imagine?
SPEAKER_02 (08:21):
I cannot even imagine.
It is not me.
Sarah from college running offto Vegas.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (08:28):
No.
In my very like superconservative dress.
SPEAKER_02 (08:33):
It was almost like a turtleneck.
SPEAKER_00 (08:34):
Um, yeah, so we went to Vegas and like two days
before we did invite ourparents, because we weren't
going to invite them.
But then we did, and they came,and we had a lovely little time.
So it didn't start off awesome.
SPEAKER_02 (08:54):
It kind of sounds like it started off with some
secrecy.
SPEAKER_00 (08:58):
There was a dishonesty there.
I have had friends ask me if Iwish I hadn't married him.
I find that question kind ofhurtful because I would love to
have avoided a lot of heartache.
Uh he did take me on thisincredible journey, like
(09:18):
literally a journey across halfthe world.
But I have these three kids whoare fascinating.
They're people I would want totalk to in the bar.
They're interesting.
They're interesting people.
Like what a gift.
That's a tough question.
I just don't like it.
Yeah.
But everyone can ask anyone.
(09:38):
And you can't.
SPEAKER_02 (09:39):
You can't change it.
So what what's the value inasking it?
SPEAKER_00 (09:44):
I think the people who have asked me were the
people who saw the heartache ofthe engagement ending, and
literally uh I had to pickmyself up.
I was not okay.
And then for them to see ithappen again.
SPEAKER_02 (10:01):
So it's coming from a place of love.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:03):
Pretty not easy to watch.
SPEAKER_02 (10:07):
So you have these interesting kids.
Sounds like an interesting life.
What what was the marriage like?
SPEAKER_00 (10:14):
Um, as soon as we got married, literally weeks
later, right?
Yeah.
I don't even know when I'm gonnaget married.
When you kind of elope, you it'shard to remember the day.
Any Tuesday.
It was a Monday.
Like, I don't know.
Um so we he had taken a job withthe government, we canceled our
(10:37):
honeymoon, we had to go straightto DC.
So immediately into marriage, wewere in a new place.
I was lucky enough that my workwould let me work from home.
Um, and this was before remotework, but nobody did this,
people were not happy.
And in a new place with nofriends, no connection, no
(10:58):
family, and a husband who isvery excited and has a very big
job that is arguably moreimportant than me, just by the
nature of what he was doing.
You can't argue with what he wasworking on.
Like, you just can't.
(11:19):
I come from a family ofmilitary, like my dad was in the
military, so I understand theduty and honor and country, but
I think having to live that asthe wife, fresh, brand new,
that's not how we were before wewere married, and now we're
immediately married, immediatelythis is our new life.
SPEAKER_02 (11:41):
It was hard.
It's incredibly hard to bepicked up and transplanted in a
new place where you know no one.
SPEAKER_00 (11:49):
No no one, and he can't talk to me about what he's
doing.
I'm not involved in anything, soour marriage immediately was his
life is his life, his work ishis work.
It was just completely separate.
There was very little crossover.
SPEAKER_02 (12:06):
It sounds like the points of connection were few
and far between.
SPEAKER_00 (12:11):
Yes.
And I think the work that he wasdoing, it was um he was working
for the State Department and hecouldn't tell me anything.
And so that created thisenvironment where I just don't
ask because I can't know, and itdoesn't get anywhere to ask him
anything, and he's gonna feel acertain way, and it's just like,
(12:35):
well, we'll just have thislittle life that we have here at
home, and that's really it.
SPEAKER_02 (12:43):
Your life is really confined to when we're at home
together.
SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
Right, when he is home.
SPEAKER_02 (12:49):
For those three to four hours outside of sleeping.
SPEAKER_00 (12:53):
Yeah.
There's no texting during theday, there's no call during the
day, there's nothing.
He leaves, he's gone.
Which people have done forever,but that wasn't what what I had
been used to.
So it was an adjustment.
SPEAKER_02 (13:07):
Okay.
Washington DC.
What's the next next fewchapters after that?
SPEAKER_00 (13:12):
So DC, we were in the metro, we I had a weird
situation.
We rented a house, then webought a home, and I was
pregnant, still working fromhome.
I was able to have my three kidsworking from home.
Um, we knew that he he was gonnaneed to go overseas at some
point.
So we had tried a coupledifferent places, it just hadn't
(13:35):
hadn't worked out.
And we were super hopeful thatthis job would would work out,
and we found out he got this jobhe was gonna be going.
We were gonna be going to Londonto work at the embassy there.
And so we had our third andfinal baby, knowing that okay,
we're gonna have this baby herein America.
It's gonna be US.
(13:59):
And I had pretty rough birthingsituations.
So I wanted to say with mydoctor, um, have this baby here,
pack it up, go.
So that's what we did.
We packed up with afive-year-old, three-year-old,
and a five-month-old to England.
We had 15 suitcases.
SPEAKER_02 (14:19):
I can't even imagine trying to move like five people
to a whole nother life acrossthe world.
SPEAKER_00 (14:29):
I mean, I went a little crazy.
He thought I was nuts, and I wasnot.
Um, because everything was byweight.
If you have any militarylisteners or anything, they know
you can get so much weight instorage, you can take so much
weight with you, you get so muchweight for your air shipment,
then so much weight for theboat.
So, yeah, it was crazy.
He was gone a lot before that.
(14:49):
He traveled a lot with um to goto the Middle East and like a
lot of other places.
Um, so yeah.
Yeah, we went to England.
That was hard.
SPEAKER_02 (15:01):
You have to do it again now.
You you have to re-establish awhole new life in another
country where you don't knowanyone.
SPEAKER_00 (15:09):
So isolating.
For the first year, I was homewith the kids.
I had never done that.
Holy smokes, that's really hard.
And we had to navigate gettingkids into schools and like
trying to get them there and nothaving a car, and I don't know
how to do anything.
(15:30):
I know they speak English, but Ican't understand anyone, and
being terrified.
I've never lived in a citybefore.
Um, I do public transportationthe first time my little
three-year-old was trying to getoff the bus.
She sat down and scooted herselfoff, and I was like, oh god,
we're not gonna make it.
(15:51):
We do not fit in here.
But yeah, I learned a lot.
You're smart too.
You figure shit out.
Oh yeah, I figured it out.
And after the butt scootingincident, we were golden on the
bus.
We were so good.
Uh everyone should have to dothat.
It's hard to move to anothercountry.
I think everyone thought all ofmy friends here thought it was
gonna be glamorous, easy becauseit they speak English, but it's
(16:16):
different.
And English, while amazing, theyalready have their friends.
They don't really want me to betheir friends.
SPEAKER_02 (16:26):
They don't they don't need a new American
friend.
SPEAKER_00 (16:28):
We don't need a new American friend.
We were diplomats, so like we'realso not rich.
The other Americans that arethere are in the circles that we
were hanging because of ourchildren, are very well off, and
we are like the scholarshipchildren.
SPEAKER_02 (16:50):
So like we don't really fit in here.
SPEAKER_00 (16:55):
So that was interesting.
I got to then eventually Iworked at the embassy for two
years, and that was beautiful,magical.
Learned so much, would do thatjob forever if I could, but I
can't.
But it was hard.
SPEAKER_02 (17:12):
Yeah.
I mean, just moving to adifferent state is hard.
It's a whole other country.
SPEAKER_00 (17:19):
When I started working, we got a nanny, which
also sounds sounds so glamorous,and it's like I would have much
preferred to go to a daycareprovider, but they don't exist
in the way that they do here.
Love my nanny, still text herall the time.
The school situation wasdifferent.
It was it's just it was veryhard.
And then physically I started todecline.
(17:44):
Health-wise.
Yeah.
It was terrifying, and I didn'thave any support.
The support I was getting viaphone or you know, whatever, was
just minimizing.
My body was failing me, and Iwas scared.
My husband was busy and I had totake care of things at home, but
(18:06):
physically I wasn't able to.
So it came to a head.
We took a we like been soexcited.
We're here, we're gonna do allthis traveling.
We took one trip.
We had to leave early because Iphysically could not do it.
And it makes me sad, but ithappens.
(18:27):
I think the combination of myhealth issues, my husband's job,
or my ex-husband's job, andliving in a foreign country, it
was a lot of pressure on us.
And three young kids, too.
Three young kids.
Yeah, I was not the best versionof myself.
(18:49):
By any stretch of theimagination.
Eventually, I was diagnosed withMS.
I knew I had MS.
My mother has MS.
I'm familiar with the disease,but I do have a flair for the
dramatics.
Um no one could see me.
(19:11):
So they didn't see the theydidn't see it.
I was not well.
So going through that and youwent through that in London as
well?
Yeah, I was diagnosed in London.
It was actually a beautifulexperience.
I wouldn't change thatexperience for anything.
It was so fortunate.
At the embassy, I worked for thehealth department.
(19:32):
So I had the American doctorsthere were my friends, and they
got me into the bestneurologists.
That was my job, helping peopleget doctors' appointments.
So, like, I was into the besthospital, into the best doctors.
I had American health insurance,so I could go privately.
(19:52):
It's a weird disease, but like Ididn't have to fight for a
diagnosis.
It was pretty straightforward.
When I got the official word, weknew for sure that he went with
me to the appointment.
It was Christmas Eve.
unknown (20:07):
Oh gosh.
SPEAKER_00 (20:08):
We had friends from home from America coming that
day.
I'm so glad that they werethere.
We got that news, but I don'tthink he could process it.
And I needed a lot.
I needed a lot of support, and Idon't think he knew how to
handle it.
So I was struggling, likeemotionally.
(20:31):
Physically, I was recovering andI was going to go on and have
medication and have greatthings, you know.
Medicine is amazing.
But emotionally I was not okay.
Perfect storm?
SPEAKER_02 (20:46):
Perfect storm to what storm?
We had a lot of storms.
SPEAKER_00 (20:54):
We had a lot of storms.
They were just they werebrewing.
And then COVID hit.
SPEAKER_02 (21:00):
Okay.
So now we're at the time frameof COVID, 2020.
SPEAKER_00 (21:04):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I was diagnosed I got theofficial diagnosis Christmas Eve
night 2019, and then COVID hit2020.
I mean, it was stressful foreverybody.
London shut down in a way that Idon't think most Americans can
understand.
Literally not allowed to leaveyour house.
Like you can't, you're not,you're allowed to go for one
walk a day.
SPEAKER_02 (21:24):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (21:24):
Yeah, no, we didn't we didn't experience that.
No.
It was completely different.
If you sat down on a bench, a anofficer would might stop you and
be like, you need to leave.
The people back home are havingdifferent experience than I was
having.
And that was hard to and you'realready isolated.
Super isolated.
And then COVID on top of that.
COVID on top of that.
(21:46):
I had to do a round of steroids.
Man, they do it different there.
They like pump you up.
So I was like superwoman.
Like I was like, man, I haven'tbeen able to walk, but now I can
like.
I was like Louisa.
An Encanto like lifting stuffand like getting it done and
(22:06):
then they don't taper you off,you just go cold turkey.
I mean that was hard.
That was not a good version.
I wasn't prepared for that.
That was in March 2020.
And we were stuck in the house,fighting, not good, not able to
leave, so not able to get anyreprieve from each other or
(22:28):
space, homeschooling.
I mean we all had to do it, butit was difficult with those
other factors at the time.
SPEAKER_02 (22:40):
Yeah.
If you were back here, you stillwould have had that, but there
would have been the supportnetwork and familiarity and
couldn't even do like Zoom stuffbecause the time difference.
SPEAKER_00 (22:51):
Our home was while by London standards huge.
We had a standalone home.
Tiny.
Tiny.
I was tired and my body was allmessed up from medication.
My mind was all over the place.
I was not my best.
SPEAKER_02 (23:09):
That takes vulnerability to share all that.
SPEAKER_00 (23:11):
It was terrible, I was I mean, he wasn't his best
either.
It would have been hard to doanywhere, but just in that
environment.
SPEAKER_02 (23:20):
Trifecta.
SPEAKER_00 (23:21):
We'd be stuck in the house with each other.
It was really it was reallydifficult.
As I physically was gettingbetter and I started seeing a
therapist there, I got on somemedication, which I should have
been put on immediately.
I didn't know to ask.
I'm still learning things.
I started to kind of be levelingout a little, but it was still
(23:43):
this like coldness from my ex.
He had cut me off emotionally.
I didn't realize it correspondedwith somebody reaching out to
him via email, and he had askedme if it was okay that he, you
know, what should we do?
And I'm who I am and I'm goingto be everybody's friend.
(24:05):
Um his high school girlfriendhad emailed him.
He was like, should I emailback?
And I said, Oh my gosh.
Well, obviously she needs afriend.
So yeah, we should email herback.
SPEAKER_02 (24:19):
Sounds like we're getting into the what happened
part of the story.
SPEAKER_00 (24:24):
It changed.
And I thought I was losing mymind because I was kind of there
was a lot of like self-doubt inmyself.
Everything about me waschanging.
Was I imagining things?
I don't know.
It was different.
And I was asking for support andhelp, and I wasn't getting any
of it back.
(24:45):
Some of that I can understandnow, and some of it I can't.
We sold our home in Virginia.
So we had this extra cash.
We had decided he was going toquit the government work.
This was just not going to begood for our family.
It's too hard.
We don't really want our kidspopping around all over the
(25:07):
world.
We want to have a stable.
I didn't have that as a kid.
He did.
We wanted that for our kids.
So we he was like, let's go backto the Midwest as a guest.
But I had suggested, like,you're not willing, and I can't
give anymore.
What if we just split that moneyand we called it?
SPEAKER_02 (25:30):
At some point in London in England.
Our things are kind ofescalating.
You guys have a conversationabout He doesn't have
conversations.
SPEAKER_00 (25:43):
So I say things and he told me no.
This is just how this is how ourmarriage was.
Okay.
He told me we just need to getback to America.
Which sounds so silly saying,because who says that?
But from where we were, it'slike we just need to we need to
get out of here.
We need to have stability.
(26:05):
Let's get back to America andwe'll be fine.
And I I believed him.
Yeah, why wouldn't you?
I thought, okay, this is justhard right now.
This is hard right now becausethe world is literally going
crazy.
And we just need to get back towhat we know.
SPEAKER_02 (26:28):
So you were on board with this plan that he was like,
Yeah, my whole I grew up beinglike, this is what I want.
SPEAKER_00 (26:36):
I want to be married, I want to have
children, I want that.
SPEAKER_02 (26:42):
Maybe there is a lot coming at us.
What if we can just stabilizeback in America?
SPEAKER_00 (26:48):
Right.
Let's just do it.
We'll be okay.
So we do the nuttiness ofpacking up, moving back.
We had bought this house sightunseen.
Where'd you move back to?
Here.
To Chicagoland.
This house?
Okay.
Our house wasn't ready.
So we moved in with his parents.
(27:09):
He had a couple weeks off, likeR to just like decompress.
The kids were gonna go to Disneywith his family.
We were gonna have a whole weekby ourselves.
I thought, oh my gosh, this isgonna be so great.
We can reconnect, like we canlike do fun things.
I don't know.
Go out to dinner, I don't know.
Right.
Have some fun.
We did some painting in thehouse, like we were getting
(27:30):
ready.
I thought, okay, we're doing it.
We weren't, I guess.
We did therapy, and thetherapist gave us like some
things to work on, some thingsto talk about, and he just
wouldn't.
A couple days later, I askedhim, like, what are we doing?
He told me he wanted a divorce,and we were sitting in his mom
(27:51):
and dad's living room, and I wasliving in their house.
It was terrible.
You were like fresh off the boatalmost?
Yeah, we had been here a coupleweeks, but he wasn't gonna be
around for much longer.
I think he had like a week leftor two, maybe, before we had to
go back to DC.
I still didn't have furniturehere in the house, and the stuff
was still in England and inVirginia.
(28:14):
So I had to live with hisparents.
We had to go to dinner like thatnight with his sister.
It was very difficult.
SPEAKER_02 (28:23):
Nobody knew.
So that's when he dropped the Dbomb on you.
SPEAKER_00 (28:28):
I was so mad.
What was the reasoning?
In our marriage, I had learnedjust don't ask.
He he said he didn't love meanymore.
SPEAKER_02 (28:38):
I don't know what the follow is the follow-up is
to that.
SPEAKER_00 (28:41):
So I say I can't make you love me.
Clearly, we've been trying formany years.
And there was clearly not anytrying.
Yeah.
He did therapy to tick the boxto say he did it.
SPEAKER_02 (28:54):
Oh, nope, it's not it's not working.
Weird.
SPEAKER_00 (28:59):
So he left.
He went to DC.
Still living with his parents.
And they know or they don'tknow?
I made him tell them.
He wasn't going to tell them.
So he did.
They cried.
They said they needed therapy.
I wish y'all could see mybabies.
(29:20):
Um his parents have actuallybeen very kind and generous.
They helped me move into thishouse.
His dad helps me with so manythings around here.
If something is making a weirdnoise, I call his dad.
SPEAKER_02 (29:36):
And where are you at in the divorce process?
What it hadn't even started yet.
SPEAKER_00 (29:43):
Hadn't even started.
It was not a fun time.
We did that for two years.
Did what for two years?
Um for a full year.
He would not do anything withthe divorce.
I emailed attorneys eventually.
Like I gave it some time becauseI was like, well, we do need to
establish residency in thosecountries.
(30:05):
I need to get the kids toschool.
I needed to like I had to get ajob.
SPEAKER_02 (30:12):
We're gonna pin put a little pin in this divorce
thing as a get my liferesituated.
SPEAKER_00 (30:17):
I had to get it together in the most not great
looking way possible.
So like six months it was fine,but I had started emailing
attorneys.
We wanted to do it as micable aspossible because there's no
fixing it.
He was done.
(30:39):
He would come home every otherweekend, he would take the kids
for those two days, and then Ihad them the rest of the time.
So that was pretty hard.
But it was good in its own weirdway.
Eventually, though, he just wasnot open to filing.
He would not do it.
SPEAKER_02 (31:00):
And you were waiting for him to file?
SPEAKER_00 (31:02):
I it was in this weird head space where like I
felt paralyzed in our marriage.
He made all the big decisions.
I didn't have access to anybanking information.
It was just not a greatsituation.
Eventually I was like, we haveto do this, like for the kids,
(31:23):
like we need stuff on paper.
So we tried mediation, but itmade it so far as to me talking
to the mediator, and shewouldn't mediate for us because
I wasn't an equal situation, andhe had too much control over me
still.
Okay, very hard conversation.
(31:46):
I balled on the phone with thispoor attorney.
I'm sure she's used to it.
SPEAKER_02 (31:53):
She probably I cried to my attorney too.
Yeah, I think they're used toit.
SPEAKER_00 (31:56):
But she was like, I can't help you.
You can't mediate.
And I think that I knew thatinside, but I had wanted to be
like, we're gonna do this sowell.
Like, I'm gonna get divorced sokindly.
That's what you want.
SPEAKER_02 (32:15):
Delusional.
Isn't there such a thing as akind divorce?
SPEAKER_00 (32:20):
Well, I was like, we're gonna do this as best as
we can.
I'm going to suck up so muchbecause I've got these little
people here.
I'm gonna do this kindly.
SPEAKER_02 (32:32):
What was important to you about doing it kindly?
SPEAKER_00 (32:35):
The kids.
I I think I was treated socruelly in the way I was told
and the lead up to it that Ijust can't imagine hurting
someone like that.
And so I didn't want to do that.
SPEAKER_02 (32:49):
You were trying to honor kindness throughout this
process.
SPEAKER_00 (32:53):
I was trying to honor myself in knowing that I
am a good person.
You're throwing all this stuffat me and making me feel like
I'm not a good person.
I'm a good person.
SPEAKER_02 (33:04):
So you tried mediation and that turned out to
be unsuccessful.
I took a phone call, yeah.
So then what were next stepsafter that?
SPEAKER_00 (33:13):
She referred me to my attorney.
Loved them.
He was very angry.
SPEAKER_02 (33:20):
Your attorney was angry?
SPEAKER_00 (33:22):
My ex-husband.
SPEAKER_02 (33:22):
Oh, I'm sorry.
Very angry.
That you had gotten legalrepresentation at that point?
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (33:28):
Very angry.
Well, shocking.
Because he wanted to settleoutside of he wanted to keep
costs down, which I thinkeveryone wants that.
It's also what they say.
He also doesn't live his lifethat way, so I think it's funny.
But yeah, just to keep costsdown, and I get that.
(33:49):
I've wanted that too.
That wasn't going to bepossible.
It was just not pretty.
SPEAKER_02 (33:56):
I'm right there with you.
I I had to also decide to getlegal representation because my
ex wanted to do it outside ofthe court system.
And basically, hand the courtsystem here, a stamp of
approval, divorce us.
I also was ignorant to ourfinances, but I knew enough to
(34:19):
say, I am too ignorant to trustyou completely on this.
So I'm gonna get legalrepresentation to watch my back.
You're smarter than I am.
SPEAKER_00 (34:30):
That's not true.
He's an attorney.
My ex-husband's an attorney.
He knows what he's doing.
He is very smart.
And I'm not saying that I'm notsmart, but I am not.
I don't take the bar.
SPEAKER_02 (34:44):
I'm not a lawyer.
SPEAKER_00 (34:46):
I don't know the rules.
And I trust everyone.
But in this situation, eventhough I knew not to, I still
trusted him.
unknown (35:00):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (35:01):
It hadn't yet come out everything.
There were feelings, there weresuspicions, but it didn't come
out until much, much later.
The reality of the situation.
Okay.
I'm glad I found out much later.
It was a very cruel way to findout.
And again, I will never doanything like that because I
(35:23):
would never want anyone to feelthat way.
But this is my reality.
SPEAKER_02 (35:29):
So you got legal representation.
He was very upset about it.
But then what happened?
SPEAKER_00 (35:35):
Then he I mean he got an attorney.
My attorney was often shocked bymy ex-husband's emails and the
way that he spoke to me, her,and everyone.
But I think that was good for meto wake up a little bit.
I was seeing things that otherpeople could see, but I was
(35:55):
blind to it.
I trust and I don't verify.
I just trust.
Now I trust and verify.
Um but that was good.
I learned a lot.
I'm still learning.
I'm still not fully followingthrough on some of the things
that I learned, but I knowbetter now.
(36:17):
We didn't really fight aboutthings.
There were a couple things wewent back and forth on.
He didn't put up a fight aboutthings.
He would throw little fits orwhatever.
I think that was just to kindof, for lack of a better term,
to kind of bully me.
I don't know that that wasreally his intention, but it's
just how it went.
50-50 all the way across.
I don't want any more.
(36:38):
Don't want any less.
Um, but he was still living inDC and he had 50-50 parenting.
Oh.
We did that for a while, but hewas flying back and forth.
I don't think he was alwaysthere, and I found out, and so I
had to then go back to myattorney.
(37:00):
But since then, everything'sgood.
He then did move himself here.
He lives with his family.
My ex-in-laws are fabulous, theyhelp with my children.
I do a lot of co-parenting withthem because he never left his
government job.
So he's still not available.
So I do a lot of co-parentingwith them.
(37:21):
We are much better atco-parenting now.
We still have moments.
I saw him yesterday.
Basketball game.
We laugh.
We do things with our kids.
We try to be as together as wecan be, but it's not going to be
the divorce that I wanted whenwe started the process.
(37:43):
A kind divorce.
It's not a kind.
I think I I was delusional.
I was really crazy.
I was like, I want us to stillbe able to do some holiday
things together.
SPEAKER_02 (37:57):
And you had to accept a new reality.
SPEAKER_00 (37:59):
Yes.
Actually, very recently I've hadto shift my perspective again.
I think that I will be workingon that for a long time.
So it's been a year now that Iknew for certain that that
ex-girlfriend from high schoolhe is in a relationship with
(38:20):
her.
I found out when my kids told methey went to the pumpkin patch
last year.
I used to be very good friendswith her sister.
They visited us in DC.
So I knew when my kids said herkids' names, I knew.
It was devastating.
Which part was devastating?
(38:42):
As soon as he said it, the nextday I had asked there was
something going on with them.
And he essentially told me I wascrazy.
And I was like, okay.
His sister had asked if therewas somebody else.
I'm very good friends with hissister.
She was like, he says there's noone else.
Um so I don't know the timelineof everything.
I'll never get a true answer.
(39:04):
This was like the fifth or sixthbetrayal, and to find out again
in such a cruel, painful wayfrom my children, and then to
like have to be strong and fail.
And fail at being strong in thatmoment.
He wouldn't even tell me aboutit.
He wouldn't even confirm what Iknew.
(39:26):
I mean, I I went and hid in myson's room and I cried, but it
was like an ugly cry, you know,those bad cries.
Yeah.
And the kids were here.
So that sucks.
We're never gonna be okay.
Things have happenedsubsequently, and I have lost a
lot of respect for him.
(39:46):
I still think we could havebuilt something where we could
have like this joint, not likenot like we should hang out,
like have a barbecue orsomething, but like be at events
together and it'd be fine.
That will not happen.
Because we've tried.
SPEAKER_02 (40:03):
So you've you've experimented and tried to do
this.
SPEAKER_00 (40:06):
I asked for something leading up to I knew
she would be there.
He lied to me about the thingsbefore, and then I got there,
and I'm like, oh, that was alie.
Okay, it's terrible.
Um, and I had just said, Hey, Iknow she's gonna be there, like
that's great.
She is essentially a motherfigure, but she lacks any
(40:29):
respect to me, and I had justasked, Hey, I know it's your
weekend, I know this is like abig event for my girls.
Like, if I'm with the kids, canI just have a moment with the
kids and then y'all can dowhatever you want to do?
She just wouldn't back off.
Like, I had to take my son awayfrom her just so I could see
him.
(40:50):
So it's not gonna be that yeah,what I had hoped we could have.
Like, I can do some work, I canforgive, but I can't if they're
not going to give it back.
So I'm figuring that out rightnow, like literally in real
time.
Like in real time last weekend,had conversations with my
(41:11):
sister-in-law, and I was like,oh man, I didn't realize it was
like this bad.
I'll figure it out.
SPEAKER_02 (41:16):
You're strong.
You've figured out how to liveall over the world.
I am delusional.
You have made it to the otherside.
SPEAKER_00 (41:29):
Yeah, I've been divorced for over a year,
legally divorced.
SPEAKER_02 (41:37):
What resources or support did you utilize or lean
into to get through like theworst of the worst days?
SPEAKER_00 (41:47):
I am not blessed with a supportive set of
parents.
I'm very blessed with a sisterwho is beyond cool and has taken
all of my phone calls, has toldme when I am wrong in a loving
way.
SPEAKER_02 (42:06):
It doesn't always feel loving, but yes.
SPEAKER_00 (42:08):
Um she's amazing.
I've had my sister.
I have to be honest, I have notrelied on my friends as much as
I probably could have.
A lot of that is myself, a lotof that is trying and not
feeling great in it becausenobody can understand.
SPEAKER_02 (42:27):
Yeah, because you you did share that your friends
have never gone through thisbefore.
SPEAKER_00 (42:31):
Yeah, everyone's married.
SPEAKER_02 (42:32):
Everyone's married.
Being in Atlanta rather thanBentonville, I found women who
had gone through it before, andit was so helpful for them to
just be like, you're in theworst part of it.
Just know it gets better.
SPEAKER_00 (42:50):
I but did not have I had just like, well, we can
pray, and you guys can figurethis out.
Like, no, you don't understand.
He doesn't love me and he livesin DC.
Um, I had a great therapist, shewas lovely, but with divorce,
you change insurance, and I'vehad to change insurance now
(43:11):
several times.
But now I was literally justlooking up a therapist when you
pull him in.
SPEAKER_02 (43:18):
I think everyone I've talked to so far has said
therapy with that question.
SPEAKER_00 (43:23):
I think therapy and walking, I did a lot of reading.
Love some self-help books.
I read them a lot when I was inEngland too, because I felt
hopeless.
I love Brene Brown, um, walking,your the movement of your eyes,
physical activity, beingoutside, like I walked so much.
(43:46):
Yeah.
Honestly, listening to podcasts,things that I like, things that
make me laugh.
Yeah.
Like the finding of myselfagain, which is hard.
I think anyone who has childrenwhen you're going through
motherhood.
It's very hard.
And I told him this.
You did the hard thing and yousaid that we needed a divorce.
(44:06):
Like you did the hard thing andwe made it happen.
We needed to split.
Do I wish it had happeneddifferently?
Absolutely.
Because I'm the one who got hurtthe most in it.
But I think the beauty and whatI'm finding in my journey
through divorce is that it isforcing me to be me.
My kids went to their dadstoday.
(44:28):
I will not see them untilMonday.
What am I gonna do with myself?
Anything you want.
It was terribly hard at first.
I'm three years into this alonetime, but I'm I'm happy alone.
I don't even need to doanything.
SPEAKER_02 (44:45):
This Sarah who is finding herself.
Who is she compared to previous?
Well, I'm I'm on like Sarah 6.0.
SPEAKER_00 (44:55):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (44:56):
There's been many, many iterations.
Okay, uh, another one.
What do you love about Sarah6.0?
SPEAKER_00 (45:09):
This Sarah laughs.
England Sarah didn't laugh.
I didn't realize that I hadn'tbeen laughing until I laughed.
This Sarah dances and sings.
I am able to enjoy my childrenfor who they are.
And I don't know that I wouldhave had that gift if I were
(45:31):
still with the fog of marriageon me.
I've really like gotten intodoing things for me.
SPEAKER_02 (45:42):
So how have you prioritized or maintained your
health and wellness?
SPEAKER_00 (45:49):
So I work out like five times a week.
I can walk right now.
I couldn't do that for a littlebit.
Seeing the change in my body andthen knowing that I can be
powerful, even with MS, likebeing middle-age.
I'm so excited for 40.
Are you 40 yet?
(46:10):
No, I don't turn 40 till June.
You are so young.
I'm we're the same age! BecauseI'm thinking back to when we
were like turning 21 and youwere like the last one.
SPEAKER_02 (46:22):
Oh, I am the baby.
Yes.
Yeah.
Like Abby can't go to the realbar because she's not 21.
Yes, you're right there.
SPEAKER_00 (46:29):
Like, I'm ready.
I am pumped.
SPEAKER_02 (46:33):
To turn 40?
Yes.
Why?
What's on the other side of 40for you?
SPEAKER_00 (46:38):
Nothing or everything.
Well, that's it.
I think that the 30s were sorough.
It was so hard.
And I don't care.
SPEAKER_02 (46:52):
You're like, I'm closing this chapter on 30 and
I'm gonna hit 40.
SPEAKER_00 (46:56):
I'm ready.
Mentally, I'm ready.
I still sometimes can't believethat I've been through all of
this stuff.
And so I'm like, whoa, I'llremember something.
I'm like, that happened.
That was bonkers.
Crazy.
But now I feel so much more incontrol.
I had no control.
(47:16):
I'm not like a control freak.
I don't really have controlbecause it's like life is you
know, but like I feel like Ihave more of a say.
My voice, I don't put up withit.
I don't.
And I will say things now Iwould have never said before.
I stand up for myself.
(47:37):
When I get to my point, no,we're done.
And I've got the receipts toshow you that I've tried and I'm
done.
SPEAKER_02 (47:46):
This 6.0 Sarah, she went through some shit.
And deep core valuescrystallized for her going
through all this.
SPEAKER_00 (47:58):
I wrote them down.
Yeah.
Oh consult my list.
I asked my daughter actually.
Oh phone a friend?
I did because I was like, ohman, what is a value?
SPEAKER_02 (48:07):
Right, ChatGPT.
What is a value?
SPEAKER_00 (48:09):
I was like, I'm writing my mission statement.
So I asked my middle daughter.
We had a great conversation.
So thank you very much.
We had such a fun time.
So my core values, humor.
If you can't laugh, I don't wantto be around you.
If I can't laugh, I don't wantto be there.
(48:30):
Peace.
I will choose peace overeverything.
I have been kicking things tothe curb, left and right,
because it doesn't bring peace.
Boundaries, I'm big on that.
Self-advocacy.
We'll ask doctor's questions.
I wouldn't have done thatbefore.
I will speak up in meetings.
My voice is so much louder now.
(48:52):
Turns out I actually have a lotto say.
I know we're doing a podcast,and maybe this is silly, but
like people respect what I haveto say, apparently.
Yeah.
I have no idea until I startedspeaking up.
And just accepting people forwho they are.
SPEAKER_02 (49:10):
Oh my gosh, my eyes just got big.
Accepting that people are flawedhumans.
Right.
That make mistakes and do thingsthat you will never understand.
SPEAKER_00 (49:22):
I cannot understand it.
I I preach it to my children.
We cannot control them.
We can only control ourselves.
Just accepting that the waysomebody reacts to something,
that is not about me.
And quite honestly, it haschanged my perspective on
parenting because sometimes Ilose my shit.
(49:42):
And you know what?
It has nothing to do with mychildren.
It has everything to do with mein that moment.
And then I say to myself, I needto chill out.
Like our reactions and otherpeople's reactions have so much
to do about them.
You know, this whole divorcejourney, how this happened, says
nothing about me.
(50:03):
Nothing.
I was wanting to be so kind.
I wanted to control so that wecould have this kind thing so
that I could have the nicestdivorce.
I cannot control him.
I have quotes in my my room.
When they go low, we go high.
You know, speak up even whenyour voice shakes.
(50:25):
I want my daughters to know thattheir voice matters.
I want them to know that theydon't have to do anything for
anybody else, even for me.
They don't have to make mehappy.
They need to make themselveshappy.
SPEAKER_02 (50:42):
I just listened to a podcast with the author from
Codependent No More.
I forget her name.
I actually need to read that.
She's so good.
She said, You will never behappier in a relationship than
you are with yourself.
And it was like, yeah, thatmakes sense.
SPEAKER_00 (51:04):
But I think I grew up just trying to make everyone
happy, and then that's just whatI kept doing.
SPEAKER_02 (51:09):
And I don't want my children to at the sacrifice of
you.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (51:15):
I don't want that.
So those are my core values.
SPEAKER_02 (51:19):
Those are gifts in and of themselves.
Like being able to know whatthose are that are important to
you.
What other gifts oropportunities did your divorce
bring you?
SPEAKER_00 (51:30):
The opportunity to be present with my children.
My ex-husband is not actually areal single parent.
He has built-in help.
He's got a different situation.
I truly, I have no family here.
I have very little friends.
So I'm I'm on my own here.
The gift that's given me is thatI do have these off days where I
(51:52):
can focus on all the logisticalbullshit of parenting and being
a grown-up and medicalappointments and all those sorts
of things when my children arenot around.
And so I try to really see mykids when they're here.
To be present with them.
(52:13):
Not always successful becausethey are very distracted by
their lives, but that is a giftthat I've come to realize.
It's hard to come to that.
Realizing that that time withoutyour kids is a gift.
Say more about that.
Well, it it offers me the timeto do the grunt work, it offers
(52:35):
me time to be me.
Because when you have your kidshome, it's not you.
Your mom.
And it's all about them.
Like I just spend the timedriving a lot, you know.
It's a gift to be able to havebalance.
Because I would not have beenbalanced.
SPEAKER_02 (52:52):
I hear that from several moms.
SPEAKER_00 (52:56):
It sounds you feel terrible saying it.
And I miss my children terribly.
I miss out on so many things.
But I am really trying to lookat it as a gift, trying to see
the benefit to it.
SPEAKER_02 (53:10):
And the benefit would be that you're not
distracted from other thingswhen your kids are here.
SPEAKER_00 (53:17):
Yeah, like I still do laundry and stuff when
they're around.
Like we do chores together.
I don't do everything whenthey're not here because they do
need to learn life skills.
But like if I'm feeling bigemotions, if I'm feeling big
feelings, I try to really feelthem on the weekends by myself.
With my MS, I really needdowntime.
I've learned the gift of doingnothing.
(53:38):
If my body needs me to lay, Ican lay and no one needs me.
And it's it's a gift.
And it's probably not a feelingof guilt.
I feel a little guilt, but I'mI'm Catholic.
SPEAKER_02 (53:52):
That's just inherent.
SPEAKER_00 (53:53):
That's just coming regardless.
So but yeah, I just try to lookat it as a gift.
Be ready for them when they comehome.
SPEAKER_02 (54:03):
Right.
It's almost like you'rerecharging so that you can be
more present with them whenthey're here.
SPEAKER_00 (54:08):
But I wouldn't have had that.
You would be always on all thetime.
And with my MS, I would havebeen extra depleted.
So I think that I've been ableto maintain my health better by
having this forced balance.
That's a good reframe.
It took a bit.
It's forced me to like I thinkmy friends who are with their
(54:30):
children every day, then whenthey do have the empty nest,
they're gonna be, I think, notas prepared.
Whereas my children have a wholeseparate life and I don't speak
to them at all.
Mm-hmm.
Might be my delusion speaking,but I think I'm going to be
prepared for that empty nestwhen they go away because I've
(54:53):
had these slowly be integratedinto that.
SPEAKER_02 (54:58):
A positive reframe?
That's the point of the podcast.
Bitter or better.
And you could very easily bebitter about the situation and
how it went down.
But through work, have takenthis better perspective.
SPEAKER_00 (55:16):
I just think it's kind of hysterical.
SPEAKER_02 (55:19):
The whole thing is funny.
Funny is one word for it, yeah.
Between our stories.
It is crazy.
Crazy enough to start a podcastabout.
SPEAKER_00 (55:30):
I mean, like, called off your wedding, went off to
Vegas, got married, went allover the world, came back to
America, and had a phantomdivorce.
Like nobody Phantom Divorce.
But like none of my friends haveever had ever met him.
This guy doesn't even exist,does he?
No.
I'm just kidding.
I mean, but that's been thejoke.
Nobody had ever even met him,and then I'm they called off
(55:50):
this wedding from this person,nobody's ever met, and then I
married him, nobody was there,they watched it on the internet,
and I'm like, oh well now we'regetting divorced, nobody's even
met him.
SPEAKER_02 (56:03):
That was a good summary.
So in our last question, yeah.
This podcast is about helpingother people, which is why you
also agreed to do this.
What do you want to leave peoplewith or hope people take away
from hearing the story?
SPEAKER_00 (56:20):
You're not crazy.
He did that.
It will get better.
You can be mad.
You can be so mad.
But don't be mad forever.
That is not where we want to be.
We want to go high.
But we can be mad because wehave to feel that.
Go for a walk.
(56:40):
Listen to something that makesyou happy.
Listen to mad music.
Listen to slutty music.
Listen to sad music, but not toomuch sad music.
And then listen to dance music.
Music and walking, it istherapy.
Podcasts or TV shows that makeyou laugh.
Therapy.
Find a friend.
(57:02):
So I've learned you can justtell people that you want to be
their friend, and they will beyour friend.
You can just tell people, like,oh, I'm would you like to be my
friend?
And they're like, you guys canjust be friends that way.
You can just go to yourneighbor's house and be like,
I'm not doing anything.
SPEAKER_02 (57:20):
You like Brene Brown.
One of my favorite Brene Brownquotes is vulnerability is the
last thing we want to showourselves, but the first thing
that we look for in otherpeople.
SPEAKER_00 (57:33):
I don't want to be friends with somebody who can't
be vulnerable.
I don't want to be a partnerwith anybody who can't be
vulnerable.
I like to show my vulnerabilitystraight up because if you can't
take me that way, why not?
It's just not worth it.
And that can't be real with you.
Like, I just don't want to.
I did that for a long time.
(57:55):
And it's okay to hibernate athome.
But you you can leave.
And nobody's looking at you.
Most people don't care.
Your friends care, but like theworld, they don't even know.
SPEAKER_02 (58:05):
They don't care that you're at the restaurant by
yourself eating dinner.
SPEAKER_00 (58:09):
No, and it's okay to cry at that restaurant.
I love it.
It's okay.
It's fine.
It's okay to cry in your walks.
Also.
It's okay to laugh on yourwalks.
It's okay to do whatever.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (58:26):
It's okay to feel the feelings.
It's great.
Well, Sarah, thank you so muchfor sharing your glory.
You have that divorce Kevlarabout you.
So that we've earned baby.
We've earned it.
Well, thank you again.
Yes, thanks for coming up here.
SPEAKER_01 (58:44):
Thanks for listening to the door.
Welcome to Butter or Better, Real Stories of Divorce
and Metallica, the podcast thatgets real about the messy middle
of divorce and what it takes tocome out stronger on the other
side.
I'm your host, Bobby Ingle,Marketer, National Four
Certified Alpha Monster Coach,and author of the upcoming book,
Butter for Better.
And I've personally earnedmydeivor.
(00:56):
You are not alone.
Let's hear someone else's storyand see what resonates.
SPEAKER_02 (01:01):
I'm here in Chicagoland with my college
friend.
And I'm so excited.
SPEAKER_00 (01:09):
Will you uh introduce who you are for our
listeners?
Yeah, my name is Sarah.
I live in the Chicagoland Metrooutside.
SPEAKER_02 (01:19):
I don't even know like where Chicagoland starts
and ends.
SPEAKER_00 (01:22):
I would say this is the furthest out that you could
maybe say Chicagoland.
SPEAKER_02 (01:27):
Okay.
I don't know.
I'm not a native.
Oh, so you don't even you don'teven have an official I don't
care.
unknown (01:34):
I know I'm just kidding.
SPEAKER_02 (01:36):
I do tell people from northern Illinois, hey,
there's a whole southern part ofthe state, which is where I'm
from, that is also Illinois, andthey're like, never heard of it.
They really haven't though.
SPEAKER_00 (01:50):
I know.
They think this is like farms,and while it is, it's a pretty
perfect little mix.
I have three pretty cool kids.
Keep me busy.
I work out of my home, been allover.
We're gonna talk about whereyou've been.
SPEAKER_02 (02:11):
The first question I ask people is why on earth they
are willing to sit down with meand open up a deeply hard,
traumatic chapter of theirlives.
SPEAKER_00 (02:26):
Okay, let um be honest.
So I agreed on me-jerk becauseyou asked me and I can't say no
to you.
Good to know.
And then I thought about it.
I thought about how lonely Iwas.
Even just this week and thinkingand preparing and you know,
(02:47):
anticipation.
I thought about how I am theonly friend I have that is
divorced.
When I needed someone to talkto, I I didn't have anyone who
could understand, and the peoplethat I did have, while very
supportive, wanted me to fixthings that I could not control
(03:09):
or fix.
So I think if there are morevoices out there just supporting
each other, knowing we're notalone, I felt very alone.
SPEAKER_02 (03:21):
Thank you for being so vulnerable in sharing that.
And thank you for recognizingthis is what I went through.
If I can be a voice for someoneelse who also feels alone, then
maybe they feel less alone byhearing my story.
SPEAKER_00 (03:38):
I think having grown up, well, I grew up everywhere,
moving every two years or so,but growing up in very religious
families, going through thisprocess has been very difficult.
SPEAKER_02 (03:53):
We'll definitely get into how others looking in and
not actually being in yourmarriage affected how how
everything I hold someresponsibility in that.
So I think we all do.
For sure.
As much as we don't want toadmit it.
Well, let's rewind the clock.
(04:14):
If you can tell us how you guysmet, what attracted you to each
other, kind of the the earlydays.
SPEAKER_00 (04:30):
We had this little girl posse, four of us.
We went out one night.
I was the sober driver.
Yeah, we kind of just bar hoppedin this little area of Kansas
City.
We heard there was a bachelorparty at another bar.
So me and one girl were like, wegotta go over there.
(04:54):
And yeah, I met my ex-husband.
He was not part of that party,he was there.
And quite honestly, it was thedrunkest I've ever seen the man.
I am attracted to people who areinteresting.
Okay, what made him interesting?
He was this very physically likevery built man.
(05:18):
Turns out he was a bodybuilder.
Not why I was interested in himat at all.
Didn't even notice that.
My friend told me that later,like he had really big arm
muscles.
It's like weird.
Um, he was really into likemusicals, and so we were at the
bar talking about musicaltheater, and I was like,
(05:41):
fascinating.
This person is so interesting,just chit chatting about the
usual things that you talk aboutat bars is musical theater, of
course, in in mid west in theMidwest, of course.
What else are you gonna talkabout?
He was just fascinating to me.
He wasn't like anyone else, hadvery good conversation.
He asked for my number, and thenwe went out and I was messaging
(06:05):
with our mutual friend.
I was like, I'm I honestly don'tremember what he looks like.
And my other friend was like,Well, he has huge arms.
So you don't even remember whathe looks like.
I don't, and I was sober.
It was the conversation.
Yeah.
I really like people who have astory to tell, and here's this
guy, this rowdy bar.
SPEAKER_02 (06:26):
If we fast forward the clock, describe the marriage
and the family dynamic.
SPEAKER_00 (06:33):
It didn't start off well.
I thought, wow, we beat theodds, we've made it.
We were engaged and we moved hegot a job up here actually.
So I followed him.
We lived in this really niceapartment complex, you know,
things were going really well.
Something was just off.
(06:53):
Things were just not somethingwas off, things were weird.
SPEAKER_02 (06:58):
Things were off before you got married?
SPEAKER_00 (07:01):
Oh yes.
SPEAKER_02 (07:01):
Oh, okay, okay.
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:02):
So before the story, it got really bad.
There was just so much dramawith our parents and planning
the wedding, and I thought itwas all just like wedding
planning and all this stuff, butit was so much more and so much
deeper that I I was naive and Ididn't know everything.
So I actually called off ourwedding.
(07:24):
I moved.
I had a a dear friend who savedme.
Her dad had a place.
I I lived in this not greatplace, but I was on my own.
And then his sister had textedme, and I just reached out to
him, and that's kind of how wegot back.
He was keeping a very big secretfrom me, and everyone knew, his
(07:44):
whole family knew.
So I do think that they had goodintentions, but when you're the
only one who doesn't know, yourmind fills in the blanks.
Your mind will create stories.
Right.
And so I created a story thateverybody hated me, and it was
really that he was hidingsomething from me, and I needed
to know.
(08:05):
So once we got back talking, wewent through therapy, we
obviously got married.
We ran off, like not ran off, wehad planned it.
We went to Vegas and gotmarried.
I know, can you imagine?
SPEAKER_02 (08:21):
I cannot even imagine.
It is not me.
Sarah from college running offto Vegas.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (08:28):
No.
In my very like superconservative dress.
SPEAKER_02 (08:33):
It was almost like a turtleneck.
SPEAKER_00 (08:34):
Um, yeah, so we went to Vegas and like two days
before we did invite ourparents, because we weren't
going to invite them.
But then we did, and they came,and we had a lovely little time.
So it didn't start off awesome.
SPEAKER_02 (08:54):
It kind of sounds like it started off with some
secrecy.
SPEAKER_00 (08:58):
There was a dishonesty there.
I have had friends ask me if Iwish I hadn't married him.
I find that question kind ofhurtful because I would love to
have avoided a lot of heartache.
Uh he did take me on thisincredible journey, like
(09:18):
literally a journey across halfthe world.
But I have these three kids whoare fascinating.
They're people I would want totalk to in the bar.
They're interesting.
They're interesting people.
Like what a gift.
That's a tough question.
I just don't like it.
Yeah.
But everyone can ask anyone.
(09:38):
And you can't.
SPEAKER_02 (09:39):
You can't change it.
So what what's the value inasking it?
SPEAKER_00 (09:44):
I think the people who have asked me were the
people who saw the heartache ofthe engagement ending, and
literally uh I had to pickmyself up.
I was not okay.
And then for them to see ithappen again.
SPEAKER_02 (10:01):
So it's coming from a place of love.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:03):
Pretty not easy to watch.
SPEAKER_02 (10:07):
So you have these interesting kids.
Sounds like an interesting life.
What what was the marriage like?
SPEAKER_00 (10:14):
Um, as soon as we got married, literally weeks
later, right?
Yeah.
I don't even know when I'm gonnaget married.
When you kind of elope, you it'shard to remember the day.
Any Tuesday.
It was a Monday.
Like, I don't know.
Um so we he had taken a job withthe government, we canceled our
(10:37):
honeymoon, we had to go straightto DC.
So immediately into marriage, wewere in a new place.
I was lucky enough that my workwould let me work from home.
Um, and this was before remotework, but nobody did this,
people were not happy.
And in a new place with nofriends, no connection, no
(10:58):
family, and a husband who isvery excited and has a very big
job that is arguably moreimportant than me, just by the
nature of what he was doing.
You can't argue with what he wasworking on.
Like, you just can't.
(11:19):
I come from a family ofmilitary, like my dad was in the
military, so I understand theduty and honor and country, but
I think having to live that asthe wife, fresh, brand new,
that's not how we were before wewere married, and now we're
immediately married, immediatelythis is our new life.
SPEAKER_02 (11:41):
It was hard.
It's incredibly hard to bepicked up and transplanted in a
new place where you know no one.
SPEAKER_00 (11:49):
No no one, and he can't talk to me about what he's
doing.
I'm not involved in anything, soour marriage immediately was his
life is his life, his work ishis work.
It was just completely separate.
There was very little crossover.
SPEAKER_02 (12:06):
It sounds like the points of connection were few
and far between.
SPEAKER_00 (12:11):
Yes.
And I think the work that he wasdoing, it was um he was working
for the State Department and hecouldn't tell me anything.
And so that created thisenvironment where I just don't
ask because I can't know, and itdoesn't get anywhere to ask him
anything, and he's gonna feel acertain way, and it's just like,
(12:35):
well, we'll just have thislittle life that we have here at
home, and that's really it.
SPEAKER_02 (12:43):
Your life is really confined to when we're at home
together.
SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
Right, when he is home.
SPEAKER_02 (12:49):
For those three to four hours outside of sleeping.
SPEAKER_00 (12:53):
Yeah.
There's no texting during theday, there's no call during the
day, there's nothing.
He leaves, he's gone.
Which people have done forever,but that wasn't what what I had
been used to.
So it was an adjustment.
SPEAKER_02 (13:07):
Okay.
Washington DC.
What's the next next fewchapters after that?
SPEAKER_00 (13:12):
So DC, we were in the metro, we I had a weird
situation.
We rented a house, then webought a home, and I was
pregnant, still working fromhome.
I was able to have my three kidsworking from home.
Um, we knew that he he was gonnaneed to go overseas at some
point.
So we had tried a coupledifferent places, it just hadn't
(13:35):
hadn't worked out.
And we were super hopeful thatthis job would would work out,
and we found out he got this jobhe was gonna be going.
We were gonna be going to Londonto work at the embassy there.
And so we had our third andfinal baby, knowing that okay,
we're gonna have this baby herein America.
It's gonna be US.
(13:59):
And I had pretty rough birthingsituations.
So I wanted to say with mydoctor, um, have this baby here,
pack it up, go.
So that's what we did.
We packed up with afive-year-old, three-year-old,
and a five-month-old to England.
We had 15 suitcases.
SPEAKER_02 (14:19):
I can't even imagine trying to move like five people
to a whole nother life acrossthe world.
SPEAKER_00 (14:29):
I mean, I went a little crazy.
He thought I was nuts, and I wasnot.
Um, because everything was byweight.
If you have any militarylisteners or anything, they know
you can get so much weight instorage, you can take so much
weight with you, you get so muchweight for your air shipment,
then so much weight for theboat.
So, yeah, it was crazy.
He was gone a lot before that.
(14:49):
He traveled a lot with um to goto the Middle East and like a
lot of other places.
Um, so yeah.
Yeah, we went to England.
That was hard.
SPEAKER_02 (15:01):
You have to do it again now.
You you have to re-establish awhole new life in another
country where you don't knowanyone.
SPEAKER_00 (15:09):
So isolating.
For the first year, I was homewith the kids.
I had never done that.
Holy smokes, that's really hard.
And we had to navigate gettingkids into schools and like
trying to get them there and nothaving a car, and I don't know
how to do anything.
(15:30):
I know they speak English, but Ican't understand anyone, and
being terrified.
I've never lived in a citybefore.
Um, I do public transportationthe first time my little
three-year-old was trying to getoff the bus.
She sat down and scooted herselfoff, and I was like, oh god,
we're not gonna make it.
(15:51):
We do not fit in here.
But yeah, I learned a lot.
You're smart too.
You figure shit out.
Oh yeah, I figured it out.
And after the butt scootingincident, we were golden on the
bus.
We were so good.
Uh everyone should have to dothat.
It's hard to move to anothercountry.
I think everyone thought all ofmy friends here thought it was
gonna be glamorous, easy becauseit they speak English, but it's
(16:16):
different.
And English, while amazing, theyalready have their friends.
They don't really want me to betheir friends.
SPEAKER_02 (16:26):
They don't they don't need a new American
friend.
SPEAKER_00 (16:28):
We don't need a new American friend.
We were diplomats, so like we'realso not rich.
The other Americans that arethere are in the circles that we
were hanging because of ourchildren, are very well off, and
we are like the scholarshipchildren.
SPEAKER_02 (16:50):
So like we don't really fit in here.
SPEAKER_00 (16:55):
So that was interesting.
I got to then eventually Iworked at the embassy for two
years, and that was beautiful,magical.
Learned so much, would do thatjob forever if I could, but I
can't.
But it was hard.
SPEAKER_02 (17:12):
Yeah.
I mean, just moving to adifferent state is hard.
It's a whole other country.
SPEAKER_00 (17:19):
When I started working, we got a nanny, which
also sounds sounds so glamorous,and it's like I would have much
preferred to go to a daycareprovider, but they don't exist
in the way that they do here.
Love my nanny, still text herall the time.
The school situation wasdifferent.
It was it's just it was veryhard.
And then physically I started todecline.
(17:44):
Health-wise.
Yeah.
It was terrifying, and I didn'thave any support.
The support I was getting viaphone or you know, whatever, was
just minimizing.
My body was failing me, and Iwas scared.
My husband was busy and I had totake care of things at home, but
(18:06):
physically I wasn't able to.
So it came to a head.
We took a we like been soexcited.
We're here, we're gonna do allthis traveling.
We took one trip.
We had to leave early because Iphysically could not do it.
And it makes me sad, but ithappens.
(18:27):
I think the combination of myhealth issues, my husband's job,
or my ex-husband's job, andliving in a foreign country, it
was a lot of pressure on us.
And three young kids, too.
Three young kids.
Yeah, I was not the best versionof myself.
(18:49):
By any stretch of theimagination.
Eventually, I was diagnosed withMS.
I knew I had MS.
My mother has MS.
I'm familiar with the disease,but I do have a flair for the
dramatics.
Um no one could see me.
(19:11):
So they didn't see the theydidn't see it.
I was not well.
So going through that and youwent through that in London as
well?
Yeah, I was diagnosed in London.
It was actually a beautifulexperience.
I wouldn't change thatexperience for anything.
It was so fortunate.
At the embassy, I worked for thehealth department.
(19:32):
So I had the American doctorsthere were my friends, and they
got me into the bestneurologists.
That was my job, helping peopleget doctors' appointments.
So, like, I was into the besthospital, into the best doctors.
I had American health insurance,so I could go privately.
(19:52):
It's a weird disease, but like Ididn't have to fight for a
diagnosis.
It was pretty straightforward.
When I got the official word, weknew for sure that he went with
me to the appointment.
It was Christmas Eve.
unknown (20:07):
Oh gosh.
SPEAKER_00 (20:08):
We had friends from home from America coming that
day.
I'm so glad that they werethere.
We got that news, but I don'tthink he could process it.
And I needed a lot.
I needed a lot of support, and Idon't think he knew how to
handle it.
So I was struggling, likeemotionally.
(20:31):
Physically, I was recovering andI was going to go on and have
medication and have greatthings, you know.
Medicine is amazing.
But emotionally I was not okay.
Perfect storm?
SPEAKER_02 (20:46):
Perfect storm to what storm?
We had a lot of storms.
SPEAKER_00 (20:54):
We had a lot of storms.
They were just they werebrewing.
And then COVID hit.
SPEAKER_02 (21:00):
Okay.
So now we're at the time frameof COVID, 2020.
SPEAKER_00 (21:04):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I was diagnosed I got theofficial diagnosis Christmas Eve
night 2019, and then COVID hit2020.
I mean, it was stressful foreverybody.
London shut down in a way that Idon't think most Americans can
understand.
Literally not allowed to leaveyour house.
Like you can't, you're not,you're allowed to go for one
walk a day.
SPEAKER_02 (21:24):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (21:24):
Yeah, no, we didn't we didn't experience that.
No.
It was completely different.
If you sat down on a bench, a anofficer would might stop you and
be like, you need to leave.
The people back home are havingdifferent experience than I was
having.
And that was hard to and you'realready isolated.
Super isolated.
And then COVID on top of that.
COVID on top of that.
(21:46):
I had to do a round of steroids.
Man, they do it different there.
They like pump you up.
So I was like superwoman.
Like I was like, man, I haven'tbeen able to walk, but now I can
like.
I was like Louisa.
An Encanto like lifting stuffand like getting it done and
(22:06):
then they don't taper you off,you just go cold turkey.
I mean that was hard.
That was not a good version.
I wasn't prepared for that.
That was in March 2020.
And we were stuck in the house,fighting, not good, not able to
leave, so not able to get anyreprieve from each other or
(22:28):
space, homeschooling.
I mean we all had to do it, butit was difficult with those
other factors at the time.
SPEAKER_02 (22:40):
Yeah.
If you were back here, you stillwould have had that, but there
would have been the supportnetwork and familiarity and
couldn't even do like Zoom stuffbecause the time difference.
SPEAKER_00 (22:51):
Our home was while by London standards huge.
We had a standalone home.
Tiny.
Tiny.
I was tired and my body was allmessed up from medication.
My mind was all over the place.
I was not my best.
SPEAKER_02 (23:09):
That takes vulnerability to share all that.
SPEAKER_00 (23:11):
It was terrible, I was I mean, he wasn't his best
either.
It would have been hard to doanywhere, but just in that
environment.
SPEAKER_02 (23:20):
Trifecta.
SPEAKER_00 (23:21):
We'd be stuck in the house with each other.
It was really it was reallydifficult.
As I physically was gettingbetter and I started seeing a
therapist there, I got on somemedication, which I should have
been put on immediately.
I didn't know to ask.
I'm still learning things.
I started to kind of be levelingout a little, but it was still
(23:43):
this like coldness from my ex.
He had cut me off emotionally.
I didn't realize it correspondedwith somebody reaching out to
him via email, and he had askedme if it was okay that he, you
know, what should we do?
And I'm who I am and I'm goingto be everybody's friend.
(24:05):
Um his high school girlfriendhad emailed him.
He was like, should I emailback?
And I said, Oh my gosh.
Well, obviously she needs afriend.
So yeah, we should email herback.
SPEAKER_02 (24:19):
Sounds like we're getting into the what happened
part of the story.
SPEAKER_00 (24:24):
It changed.
And I thought I was losing mymind because I was kind of there
was a lot of like self-doubt inmyself.
Everything about me waschanging.
Was I imagining things?
I don't know.
It was different.
And I was asking for support andhelp, and I wasn't getting any
of it back.
(24:45):
Some of that I can understandnow, and some of it I can't.
We sold our home in Virginia.
So we had this extra cash.
We had decided he was going toquit the government work.
This was just not going to begood for our family.
It's too hard.
We don't really want our kidspopping around all over the
(25:07):
world.
We want to have a stable.
I didn't have that as a kid.
He did.
We wanted that for our kids.
So we he was like, let's go backto the Midwest as a guest.
But I had suggested, like,you're not willing, and I can't
give anymore.
What if we just split that moneyand we called it?
SPEAKER_02 (25:30):
At some point in London in England.
Our things are kind ofescalating.
You guys have a conversationabout He doesn't have
conversations.
SPEAKER_00 (25:43):
So I say things and he told me no.
This is just how this is how ourmarriage was.
Okay.
He told me we just need to getback to America.
Which sounds so silly saying,because who says that?
But from where we were, it'slike we just need to we need to
get out of here.
We need to have stability.
(26:05):
Let's get back to America andwe'll be fine.
And I I believed him.
Yeah, why wouldn't you?
I thought, okay, this is justhard right now.
This is hard right now becausethe world is literally going
crazy.
And we just need to get back towhat we know.
SPEAKER_02 (26:28):
So you were on board with this plan that he was like,
Yeah, my whole I grew up beinglike, this is what I want.
SPEAKER_00 (26:36):
I want to be married, I want to have
children, I want that.
SPEAKER_02 (26:42):
Maybe there is a lot coming at us.
What if we can just stabilizeback in America?
SPEAKER_00 (26:48):
Right.
Let's just do it.
We'll be okay.
So we do the nuttiness ofpacking up, moving back.
We had bought this house sightunseen.
Where'd you move back to?
Here.
To Chicagoland.
This house?
Okay.
Our house wasn't ready.
So we moved in with his parents.
(27:09):
He had a couple weeks off, likeR to just like decompress.
The kids were gonna go to Disneywith his family.
We were gonna have a whole weekby ourselves.
I thought, oh my gosh, this isgonna be so great.
We can reconnect, like we canlike do fun things.
I don't know.
Go out to dinner, I don't know.
Right.
Have some fun.
We did some painting in thehouse, like we were getting
(27:30):
ready.
I thought, okay, we're doing it.
We weren't, I guess.
We did therapy, and thetherapist gave us like some
things to work on, some thingsto talk about, and he just
wouldn't.
A couple days later, I askedhim, like, what are we doing?
He told me he wanted a divorce,and we were sitting in his mom
(27:51):
and dad's living room, and I wasliving in their house.
It was terrible.
You were like fresh off the boatalmost?
Yeah, we had been here a coupleweeks, but he wasn't gonna be
around for much longer.
I think he had like a week leftor two, maybe, before we had to
go back to DC.
I still didn't have furniturehere in the house, and the stuff
was still in England and inVirginia.
(28:14):
So I had to live with hisparents.
We had to go to dinner like thatnight with his sister.
It was very difficult.
SPEAKER_02 (28:23):
Nobody knew.
So that's when he dropped the Dbomb on you.
SPEAKER_00 (28:28):
I was so mad.
What was the reasoning?
In our marriage, I had learnedjust don't ask.
He he said he didn't love meanymore.
SPEAKER_02 (28:38):
I don't know what the follow is the follow-up is
to that.
SPEAKER_00 (28:41):
So I say I can't make you love me.
Clearly, we've been trying formany years.
And there was clearly not anytrying.
Yeah.
He did therapy to tick the boxto say he did it.
SPEAKER_02 (28:54):
Oh, nope, it's not it's not working.
Weird.
SPEAKER_00 (28:59):
So he left.
He went to DC.
Still living with his parents.
And they know or they don'tknow?
I made him tell them.
He wasn't going to tell them.
So he did.
They cried.
They said they needed therapy.
I wish y'all could see mybabies.
(29:20):
Um his parents have actuallybeen very kind and generous.
They helped me move into thishouse.
His dad helps me with so manythings around here.
If something is making a weirdnoise, I call his dad.
SPEAKER_02 (29:36):
And where are you at in the divorce process?
What it hadn't even started yet.
SPEAKER_00 (29:43):
Hadn't even started.
It was not a fun time.
We did that for two years.
Did what for two years?
Um for a full year.
He would not do anything withthe divorce.
I emailed attorneys eventually.
Like I gave it some time becauseI was like, well, we do need to
establish residency in thosecountries.
(30:05):
I need to get the kids toschool.
I needed to like I had to get ajob.
SPEAKER_02 (30:12):
We're gonna pin put a little pin in this divorce
thing as a get my liferesituated.
SPEAKER_00 (30:17):
I had to get it together in the most not great
looking way possible.
So like six months it was fine,but I had started emailing
attorneys.
We wanted to do it as micable aspossible because there's no
fixing it.
He was done.
(30:39):
He would come home every otherweekend, he would take the kids
for those two days, and then Ihad them the rest of the time.
So that was pretty hard.
But it was good in its own weirdway.
Eventually, though, he just wasnot open to filing.
He would not do it.
SPEAKER_02 (31:00):
And you were waiting for him to file?
SPEAKER_00 (31:02):
I it was in this weird head space where like I
felt paralyzed in our marriage.
He made all the big decisions.
I didn't have access to anybanking information.
It was just not a greatsituation.
Eventually I was like, we haveto do this, like for the kids,
(31:23):
like we need stuff on paper.
So we tried mediation, but itmade it so far as to me talking
to the mediator, and shewouldn't mediate for us because
I wasn't an equal situation, andhe had too much control over me
still.
Okay, very hard conversation.
(31:46):
I balled on the phone with thispoor attorney.
I'm sure she's used to it.
SPEAKER_02 (31:53):
She probably I cried to my attorney too.
Yeah, I think they're used toit.
SPEAKER_00 (31:56):
But she was like, I can't help you.
You can't mediate.
And I think that I knew thatinside, but I had wanted to be
like, we're gonna do this sowell.
Like, I'm gonna get divorced sokindly.
That's what you want.
SPEAKER_02 (32:15):
Delusional.
Isn't there such a thing as akind divorce?
SPEAKER_00 (32:20):
Well, I was like, we're gonna do this as best as
we can.
I'm going to suck up so muchbecause I've got these little
people here.
I'm gonna do this kindly.
SPEAKER_02 (32:32):
What was important to you about doing it kindly?
SPEAKER_00 (32:35):
The kids.
I I think I was treated socruelly in the way I was told
and the lead up to it that Ijust can't imagine hurting
someone like that.
And so I didn't want to do that.
SPEAKER_02 (32:49):
You were trying to honor kindness throughout this
process.
SPEAKER_00 (32:53):
I was trying to honor myself in knowing that I
am a good person.
You're throwing all this stuffat me and making me feel like
I'm not a good person.
I'm a good person.
SPEAKER_02 (33:04):
So you tried mediation and that turned out to
be unsuccessful.
I took a phone call, yeah.
So then what were next stepsafter that?
SPEAKER_00 (33:13):
She referred me to my attorney.
Loved them.
He was very angry.
SPEAKER_02 (33:20):
Your attorney was angry?
SPEAKER_00 (33:22):
My ex-husband.
SPEAKER_02 (33:22):
Oh, I'm sorry.
Very angry.
That you had gotten legalrepresentation at that point?
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (33:28):
Very angry.
Well, shocking.
Because he wanted to settleoutside of he wanted to keep
costs down, which I thinkeveryone wants that.
It's also what they say.
He also doesn't live his lifethat way, so I think it's funny.
But yeah, just to keep costsdown, and I get that.
(33:49):
I've wanted that too.
That wasn't going to bepossible.
It was just not pretty.
SPEAKER_02 (33:56):
I'm right there with you.
I I had to also decide to getlegal representation because my
ex wanted to do it outside ofthe court system.
And basically, hand the courtsystem here, a stamp of
approval, divorce us.
I also was ignorant to ourfinances, but I knew enough to
(34:19):
say, I am too ignorant to trustyou completely on this.
So I'm gonna get legalrepresentation to watch my back.
You're smarter than I am.
SPEAKER_00 (34:30):
That's not true.
He's an attorney.
My ex-husband's an attorney.
He knows what he's doing.
He is very smart.
And I'm not saying that I'm notsmart, but I am not.
I don't take the bar.
SPEAKER_02 (34:44):
I'm not a lawyer.
SPEAKER_00 (34:46):
I don't know the rules.
And I trust everyone.
But in this situation, eventhough I knew not to, I still
trusted him.
unknown (35:00):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (35:01):
It hadn't yet come out everything.
There were feelings, there weresuspicions, but it didn't come
out until much, much later.
The reality of the situation.
Okay.
I'm glad I found out much later.
It was a very cruel way to findout.
And again, I will never doanything like that because I
(35:23):
would never want anyone to feelthat way.
But this is my reality.
SPEAKER_02 (35:29):
So you got legal representation.
He was very upset about it.
But then what happened?
SPEAKER_00 (35:35):
Then he I mean he got an attorney.
My attorney was often shocked bymy ex-husband's emails and the
way that he spoke to me, her,and everyone.
But I think that was good for meto wake up a little bit.
I was seeing things that otherpeople could see, but I was
(35:55):
blind to it.
I trust and I don't verify.
I just trust.
Now I trust and verify.
Um but that was good.
I learned a lot.
I'm still learning.
I'm still not fully followingthrough on some of the things
that I learned, but I knowbetter now.
(36:17):
We didn't really fight aboutthings.
There were a couple things wewent back and forth on.
He didn't put up a fight aboutthings.
He would throw little fits orwhatever.
I think that was just to kindof, for lack of a better term,
to kind of bully me.
I don't know that that wasreally his intention, but it's
just how it went.
50-50 all the way across.
I don't want any more.
(36:38):
Don't want any less.
Um, but he was still living inDC and he had 50-50 parenting.
Oh.
We did that for a while, but hewas flying back and forth.
I don't think he was alwaysthere, and I found out, and so I
had to then go back to myattorney.
(37:00):
But since then, everything'sgood.
He then did move himself here.
He lives with his family.
My ex-in-laws are fabulous, theyhelp with my children.
I do a lot of co-parenting withthem because he never left his
government job.
So he's still not available.
So I do a lot of co-parentingwith them.
(37:21):
We are much better atco-parenting now.
We still have moments.
I saw him yesterday.
Basketball game.
We laugh.
We do things with our kids.
We try to be as together as wecan be, but it's not going to be
the divorce that I wanted whenwe started the process.
(37:43):
A kind divorce.
It's not a kind.
I think I I was delusional.
I was really crazy.
I was like, I want us to stillbe able to do some holiday
things together.
SPEAKER_02 (37:57):
And you had to accept a new reality.
SPEAKER_00 (37:59):
Yes.
Actually, very recently I've hadto shift my perspective again.
I think that I will be workingon that for a long time.
So it's been a year now that Iknew for certain that that
ex-girlfriend from high schoolhe is in a relationship with
(38:20):
her.
I found out when my kids told methey went to the pumpkin patch
last year.
I used to be very good friendswith her sister.
They visited us in DC.
So I knew when my kids said herkids' names, I knew.
It was devastating.
Which part was devastating?
(38:42):
As soon as he said it, the nextday I had asked there was
something going on with them.
And he essentially told me I wascrazy.
And I was like, okay.
His sister had asked if therewas somebody else.
I'm very good friends with hissister.
She was like, he says there's noone else.
Um so I don't know the timelineof everything.
I'll never get a true answer.
(39:04):
This was like the fifth or sixthbetrayal, and to find out again
in such a cruel, painful wayfrom my children, and then to
like have to be strong and fail.
And fail at being strong in thatmoment.
He wouldn't even tell me aboutit.
He wouldn't even confirm what Iknew.
(39:26):
I mean, I I went and hid in myson's room and I cried, but it
was like an ugly cry, you know,those bad cries.
Yeah.
And the kids were here.
So that sucks.
We're never gonna be okay.
Things have happenedsubsequently, and I have lost a
lot of respect for him.
(39:46):
I still think we could havebuilt something where we could
have like this joint, not likenot like we should hang out,
like have a barbecue orsomething, but like be at events
together and it'd be fine.
That will not happen.
Because we've tried.
SPEAKER_02 (40:03):
So you've you've experimented and tried to do
this.
SPEAKER_00 (40:06):
I asked for something leading up to I knew
she would be there.
He lied to me about the thingsbefore, and then I got there,
and I'm like, oh, that was alie.
Okay, it's terrible.
Um, and I had just said, Hey, Iknow she's gonna be there, like
that's great.
She is essentially a motherfigure, but she lacks any
(40:29):
respect to me, and I had justasked, Hey, I know it's your
weekend, I know this is like abig event for my girls.
Like, if I'm with the kids, canI just have a moment with the
kids and then y'all can dowhatever you want to do?
She just wouldn't back off.
Like, I had to take my son awayfrom her just so I could see
him.
(40:50):
So it's not gonna be that yeah,what I had hoped we could have.
Like, I can do some work, I canforgive, but I can't if they're
not going to give it back.
So I'm figuring that out rightnow, like literally in real
time.
Like in real time last weekend,had conversations with my
(41:11):
sister-in-law, and I was like,oh man, I didn't realize it was
like this bad.
I'll figure it out.
SPEAKER_02 (41:16):
You're strong.
You've figured out how to liveall over the world.
I am delusional.
You have made it to the otherside.
SPEAKER_00 (41:29):
Yeah, I've been divorced for over a year,
legally divorced.
SPEAKER_02 (41:37):
What resources or support did you utilize or lean
into to get through like theworst of the worst days?
SPEAKER_00 (41:47):
I am not blessed with a supportive set of
parents.
I'm very blessed with a sisterwho is beyond cool and has taken
all of my phone calls, has toldme when I am wrong in a loving
way.
SPEAKER_02 (42:06):
It doesn't always feel loving, but yes.
SPEAKER_00 (42:08):
Um she's amazing.
I've had my sister.
I have to be honest, I have notrelied on my friends as much as
I probably could have.
A lot of that is myself, a lotof that is trying and not
feeling great in it becausenobody can understand.
SPEAKER_02 (42:27):
Yeah, because you you did share that your friends
have never gone through thisbefore.
SPEAKER_00 (42:31):
Yeah, everyone's married.
SPEAKER_02 (42:32):
Everyone's married.
Being in Atlanta rather thanBentonville, I found women who
had gone through it before, andit was so helpful for them to
just be like, you're in theworst part of it.
Just know it gets better.
SPEAKER_00 (42:50):
I but did not have I had just like, well, we can
pray, and you guys can figurethis out.
Like, no, you don't understand.
He doesn't love me and he livesin DC.
Um, I had a great therapist, shewas lovely, but with divorce,
you change insurance, and I'vehad to change insurance now
(43:11):
several times.
But now I was literally justlooking up a therapist when you
pull him in.
SPEAKER_02 (43:18):
I think everyone I've talked to so far has said
therapy with that question.
SPEAKER_00 (43:23):
I think therapy and walking, I did a lot of reading.
Love some self-help books.
I read them a lot when I was inEngland too, because I felt
hopeless.
I love Brene Brown, um, walking,your the movement of your eyes,
physical activity, beingoutside, like I walked so much.
(43:46):
Yeah.
Honestly, listening to podcasts,things that I like, things that
make me laugh.
Yeah.
Like the finding of myselfagain, which is hard.
I think anyone who has childrenwhen you're going through
motherhood.
It's very hard.
And I told him this.
You did the hard thing and yousaid that we needed a divorce.
(44:06):
Like you did the hard thing andwe made it happen.
We needed to split.
Do I wish it had happeneddifferently?
Absolutely.
Because I'm the one who got hurtthe most in it.
But I think the beauty and whatI'm finding in my journey
through divorce is that it isforcing me to be me.
My kids went to their dadstoday.
(44:28):
I will not see them untilMonday.
What am I gonna do with myself?
Anything you want.
It was terribly hard at first.
I'm three years into this alonetime, but I'm I'm happy alone.
I don't even need to doanything.
SPEAKER_02 (44:45):
This Sarah who is finding herself.
Who is she compared to previous?
Well, I'm I'm on like Sarah 6.0.
SPEAKER_00 (44:55):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (44:56):
There's been many, many iterations.
Okay, uh, another one.
What do you love about Sarah6.0?
SPEAKER_00 (45:09):
This Sarah laughs.
England Sarah didn't laugh.
I didn't realize that I hadn'tbeen laughing until I laughed.
This Sarah dances and sings.
I am able to enjoy my childrenfor who they are.
And I don't know that I wouldhave had that gift if I were
(45:31):
still with the fog of marriageon me.
I've really like gotten intodoing things for me.
SPEAKER_02 (45:42):
So how have you prioritized or maintained your
health and wellness?
SPEAKER_00 (45:49):
So I work out like five times a week.
I can walk right now.
I couldn't do that for a littlebit.
Seeing the change in my body andthen knowing that I can be
powerful, even with MS, likebeing middle-age.
I'm so excited for 40.
Are you 40 yet?
(46:10):
No, I don't turn 40 till June.
You are so young.
I'm we're the same age! BecauseI'm thinking back to when we
were like turning 21 and youwere like the last one.
SPEAKER_02 (46:22):
Oh, I am the baby.
Yes.
Yeah.
Like Abby can't go to the realbar because she's not 21.
Yes, you're right there.
SPEAKER_00 (46:29):
Like, I'm ready.
I am pumped.
SPEAKER_02 (46:33):
To turn 40?
Yes.
Why?
What's on the other side of 40for you?
SPEAKER_00 (46:38):
Nothing or everything.
Well, that's it.
I think that the 30s were sorough.
It was so hard.
And I don't care.
SPEAKER_02 (46:52):
You're like, I'm closing this chapter on 30 and
I'm gonna hit 40.
SPEAKER_00 (46:56):
I'm ready.
Mentally, I'm ready.
I still sometimes can't believethat I've been through all of
this stuff.
And so I'm like, whoa, I'llremember something.
I'm like, that happened.
That was bonkers.
Crazy.
But now I feel so much more incontrol.
I had no control.
(47:16):
I'm not like a control freak.
I don't really have controlbecause it's like life is you
know, but like I feel like Ihave more of a say.
My voice, I don't put up withit.
I don't.
And I will say things now Iwould have never said before.
I stand up for myself.
(47:37):
When I get to my point, no,we're done.
And I've got the receipts toshow you that I've tried and I'm
done.
SPEAKER_02 (47:46):
This 6.0 Sarah, she went through some shit.
And deep core valuescrystallized for her going
through all this.
SPEAKER_00 (47:58):
I wrote them down.
Yeah.
Oh consult my list.
I asked my daughter actually.
Oh phone a friend?
I did because I was like, ohman, what is a value?
SPEAKER_02 (48:07):
Right, ChatGPT.
What is a value?
SPEAKER_00 (48:09):
I was like, I'm writing my mission statement.
So I asked my middle daughter.
We had a great conversation.
So thank you very much.
We had such a fun time.
So my core values, humor.
If you can't laugh, I don't wantto be around you.
If I can't laugh, I don't wantto be there.
(48:30):
Peace.
I will choose peace overeverything.
I have been kicking things tothe curb, left and right,
because it doesn't bring peace.
Boundaries, I'm big on that.
Self-advocacy.
We'll ask doctor's questions.
I wouldn't have done thatbefore.
I will speak up in meetings.
My voice is so much louder now.
(48:52):
Turns out I actually have a lotto say.
I know we're doing a podcast,and maybe this is silly, but
like people respect what I haveto say, apparently.
Yeah.
I have no idea until I startedspeaking up.
And just accepting people forwho they are.
SPEAKER_02 (49:10):
Oh my gosh, my eyes just got big.
Accepting that people are flawedhumans.
Right.
That make mistakes and do thingsthat you will never understand.
SPEAKER_00 (49:22):
I cannot understand it.
I I preach it to my children.
We cannot control them.
We can only control ourselves.
Just accepting that the waysomebody reacts to something,
that is not about me.
And quite honestly, it haschanged my perspective on
parenting because sometimes Ilose my shit.
(49:42):
And you know what?
It has nothing to do with mychildren.
It has everything to do with mein that moment.
And then I say to myself, I needto chill out.
Like our reactions and otherpeople's reactions have so much
to do about them.
You know, this whole divorcejourney, how this happened, says
nothing about me.
(50:03):
Nothing.
I was wanting to be so kind.
I wanted to control so that wecould have this kind thing so
that I could have the nicestdivorce.
I cannot control him.
I have quotes in my my room.
When they go low, we go high.
You know, speak up even whenyour voice shakes.
(50:25):
I want my daughters to know thattheir voice matters.
I want them to know that theydon't have to do anything for
anybody else, even for me.
They don't have to make mehappy.
They need to make themselveshappy.
SPEAKER_02 (50:42):
I just listened to a podcast with the author from
Codependent No More.
I forget her name.
I actually need to read that.
She's so good.
She said, You will never behappier in a relationship than
you are with yourself.
And it was like, yeah, thatmakes sense.
SPEAKER_00 (51:04):
But I think I grew up just trying to make everyone
happy, and then that's just whatI kept doing.
SPEAKER_02 (51:09):
And I don't want my children to at the sacrifice of
you.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (51:15):
I don't want that.
So those are my core values.
SPEAKER_02 (51:19):
Those are gifts in and of themselves.
Like being able to know whatthose are that are important to
you.
What other gifts oropportunities did your divorce
bring you?
SPEAKER_00 (51:30):
The opportunity to be present with my children.
My ex-husband is not actually areal single parent.
He has built-in help.
He's got a different situation.
I truly, I have no family here.
I have very little friends.
So I'm I'm on my own here.
The gift that's given me is thatI do have these off days where I
(51:52):
can focus on all the logisticalbullshit of parenting and being
a grown-up and medicalappointments and all those sorts
of things when my children arenot around.
And so I try to really see mykids when they're here.
To be present with them.
(52:13):
Not always successful becausethey are very distracted by
their lives, but that is a giftthat I've come to realize.
It's hard to come to that.
Realizing that that time withoutyour kids is a gift.
Say more about that.
Well, it it offers me the timeto do the grunt work, it offers
(52:35):
me time to be me.
Because when you have your kidshome, it's not you.
Your mom.
And it's all about them.
Like I just spend the timedriving a lot, you know.
It's a gift to be able to havebalance.
Because I would not have beenbalanced.
SPEAKER_02 (52:52):
I hear that from several moms.
SPEAKER_00 (52:56):
It sounds you feel terrible saying it.
And I miss my children terribly.
I miss out on so many things.
But I am really trying to lookat it as a gift, trying to see
the benefit to it.
SPEAKER_02 (53:10):
And the benefit would be that you're not
distracted from other thingswhen your kids are here.
SPEAKER_00 (53:17):
Yeah, like I still do laundry and stuff when
they're around.
Like we do chores together.
I don't do everything whenthey're not here because they do
need to learn life skills.
But like if I'm feeling bigemotions, if I'm feeling big
feelings, I try to really feelthem on the weekends by myself.
With my MS, I really needdowntime.
I've learned the gift of doingnothing.
(53:38):
If my body needs me to lay, Ican lay and no one needs me.
And it's it's a gift.
And it's probably not a feelingof guilt.
I feel a little guilt, but I'mI'm Catholic.
SPEAKER_02 (53:52):
That's just inherent.
SPEAKER_00 (53:53):
That's just coming regardless.
So but yeah, I just try to lookat it as a gift.
Be ready for them when they comehome.
SPEAKER_02 (54:03):
Right.
It's almost like you'rerecharging so that you can be
more present with them whenthey're here.
SPEAKER_00 (54:08):
But I wouldn't have had that.
You would be always on all thetime.
And with my MS, I would havebeen extra depleted.
So I think that I've been ableto maintain my health better by
having this forced balance.
That's a good reframe.
It took a bit.
It's forced me to like I thinkmy friends who are with their
(54:30):
children every day, then whenthey do have the empty nest,
they're gonna be, I think, notas prepared.
Whereas my children have a wholeseparate life and I don't speak
to them at all.
Mm-hmm.
Might be my delusion speaking,but I think I'm going to be
prepared for that empty nestwhen they go away because I've
(54:53):
had these slowly be integratedinto that.
SPEAKER_02 (54:58):
A positive reframe?
That's the point of the podcast.
Bitter or better.
And you could very easily bebitter about the situation and
how it went down.
But through work, have takenthis better perspective.
SPEAKER_00 (55:16):
I just think it's kind of hysterical.
SPEAKER_02 (55:19):
The whole thing is funny.
Funny is one word for it, yeah.
Between our stories.
It is crazy.
Crazy enough to start a podcastabout.
SPEAKER_00 (55:30):
I mean, like, called off your wedding, went off to
Vegas, got married, went allover the world, came back to
America, and had a phantomdivorce.
Like nobody Phantom Divorce.
But like none of my friends haveever had ever met him.
This guy doesn't even exist,does he?
No.
I'm just kidding.
I mean, but that's been thejoke.
Nobody had ever even met him,and then I'm they called off
(55:50):
this wedding from this person,nobody's ever met, and then I
married him, nobody was there,they watched it on the internet,
and I'm like, oh well now we'regetting divorced, nobody's even
met him.
SPEAKER_02 (56:03):
That was a good summary.
So in our last question, yeah.
This podcast is about helpingother people, which is why you
also agreed to do this.
What do you want to leave peoplewith or hope people take away
from hearing the story?
SPEAKER_00 (56:20):
You're not crazy.
He did that.
It will get better.
You can be mad.
You can be so mad.
But don't be mad forever.
That is not where we want to be.
We want to go high.
But we can be mad because wehave to feel that.
Go for a walk.
(56:40):
Listen to something that makesyou happy.
Listen to mad music.
Listen to slutty music.
Listen to sad music, but not toomuch sad music.
And then listen to dance music.
Music and walking, it istherapy.
Podcasts or TV shows that makeyou laugh.
Therapy.
Find a friend.
(57:02):
So I've learned you can justtell people that you want to be
their friend, and they will beyour friend.
You can just tell people, like,oh, I'm would you like to be my
friend?
And they're like, you guys canjust be friends that way.
You can just go to yourneighbor's house and be like,
I'm not doing anything.
SPEAKER_02 (57:20):
You like Brene Brown.
One of my favorite Brene Brownquotes is vulnerability is the
last thing we want to showourselves, but the first thing
that we look for in otherpeople.
SPEAKER_00 (57:33):
I don't want to be friends with somebody who can't
be vulnerable.
I don't want to be a partnerwith anybody who can't be
vulnerable.
I like to show my vulnerabilitystraight up because if you can't
take me that way, why not?
It's just not worth it.
And that can't be real with you.
Like, I just don't want to.
I did that for a long time.
(57:55):
And it's okay to hibernate athome.
But you you can leave.
And nobody's looking at you.
Most people don't care.
Your friends care, but like theworld, they don't even know.
SPEAKER_02 (58:05):
They don't care that you're at the restaurant by
yourself eating dinner.
SPEAKER_00 (58:09):
No, and it's okay to cry at that restaurant.
I love it.
It's okay.
It's fine.
It's okay to cry in your walks.
Also.
It's okay to laugh on yourwalks.
It's okay to do whatever.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (58:26):
It's okay to feel the feelings.
It's great.
Well, Sarah, thank you so muchfor sharing your glory.
You have that divorce Kevlarabout you.
So that we've earned baby.
We've earned it.
Well, thank you again.
Yes, thanks for coming up here.
SPEAKER_01 (58:44):
Thanks for listening to the door.
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