February 5, 2026 • 43 mins
The story starts with whiplash: apologies at 11 p.m., holiday intimacy, then another abrupt stop. We pull back the curtain on what it takes to navigate a stop-start relationship, gather facts without losing yourself, and make bold moves when words and actions no longer match. This isn’t legal theater; it’s real life, lawyers, CPAs, depositions, and the unglamorous truth that divorce delivers decisions, not justice.
Abby walks through the mindset shift from hoping for reconciliation to protecting her future. Filing first wasn’t about revenge; it was about strategy. A quiet meditation raised a practical question, a missing refund, that cracked open the timeline. From there, call logs, credit card trails, and travel receipts told the story that denial couldn’t erase. Inside mediation and formal discovery, she learned how to answer exactly what’s asked, conserve energy, and move the process forward without surrendering to pressure or panic.
The hardest parts weren’t the spreadsheets; they were the echoes. Reading messages that mirrored her own, hearing the paramour claim a foundation of “trust,” and accepting that the legal system doesn’t weigh heartbreak. Abby shares the tools that truly help: a strong legal and financial team, boundaries with communication, a clear paper trail, and a community that can hold complexity without judgment. We also talk about redefining “winning,” choosing a fair settlement over a pyrrhic courtroom victory, and what rebuilding can look like when you’re crafting a new life in a new city.
If you value raw, practical insight into divorce, betrayal, mediation, discovery, and personal resilience, you’ll feel seen here. Subscribe, share this with a friend who needs it, and tell us: what does choosing better look like for you today?
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to Bitter or Better Real Stories of Divorce
and Resilience.
The podcast that gets real aboutthe messy middle of divorce and
what it takes to come outstronger on the other side.
I'm your host, Abby England,marketer, national board
certified health and wellnesscoach, and author of the
upcoming book, Bitter or Better,and I've personally earned my
(00:21):
divorce Kevlar.
This podcast isn't legal advice.
It isn't tips and tricks anddon't forget and hacks and
how-tos.
There's plenty of other podcastsout there interviewing lawyers,
therapists, accountants, allsorts of divorce scientists.
This podcast is raw, realconversations with everyday
(00:42):
people who have jobs, kids,responsibilities, and
commitments, and yet they'veweathered the heartbreak,
rebuilt their lives, and foundunexpected strength along the
way.
Because while divorce can breakyou, it can also make you
better.
You are not alone.
Let's hear someone else's storyand see what resonates.
SPEAKER_01 (01:01):
And you would think that the red light, green light
ends there, but it doesn't.
It doesn't.
Wow.
Yeah.
So even in Florida, I'm inFlorida, he's in Atlanta.
The red light, green lightcontinues.
I remember it was Thanksgiving.
I my my family had some extendedfamily over at the house, and
(01:23):
we're having Thanksgiving lunch.
And it was during a green lightphase, and I hear my phone
buzzes, and I and my stepdad istwo feet away from me at
Thanksgiving lunch.
Okay, and I look down and myphone buzz.
And it's a fucking dick pic.
It must be a dick pic.
(01:44):
My stepdad is two feet away.
Not I don't know how far twofeet, two feet away, probably.
And I'm like, holy um, I gottago downstairs because my family
knows what's going on, so I kindof get to use it as an excuse.
But I go downstairs and I sendthem a picture back, and then we
(02:05):
FaceTime uh are intimate witheach other with my family
upstairs at Thanksgiving lunchon FaceTime.
On FaceTime.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Uh green light.
Um and on our anniversary fellowin there because our anniversary
um was this 10 years, wasn't it?
Or yeah, that was gonna be 10years.
(02:26):
Yeah, you're right.
And we had talked about in oneof those green light phases, we
had talked about going to likeVermont or something.
And then red light.
Red light.
Yeah, yeah, red light.
I would have been probably likemid-December.
I was came back to Atlantabecause I'm like, I like
Atlanta.
I want to live here, it'sawesome.
So I gotta build a network.
(02:47):
And so I came back for like anAmerican Marketing Association
holiday party.
I stayed in an Airbnb, and heand I had kind of like been
texting about possibly doingdinner when I was back.
We scheduled a dinner and it wasnice, you know.
It was he talked about work atthat point.
He had seen a therapist a coupleof times, and so we talked
(03:07):
because I had like again, Icontinued to ask him, and at one
point was just like, just golike go for you.
Right, go for you, right?
And so we talked a little bitabout that.
Um, and then he mentionedsomething about London, our dog,
and I just I like lost it.
And so I was like, I I gotta go.
And so we left, and then hetexted me later to like check in
(03:30):
on me, and it led to sexting,and he came over that night and
stayed at my Airbnb, um, and wecuddled the whole night, and
then there was talk about him ortalk about inviting me to his
family for Christmas.
(03:50):
It was, and then there was thatfell through, you know, there
was a red light.
And then I remember on January18th at 11 p.m.
So we're in like a red lightphase.
Yes.
January 18th at 11 p.m., hesends me a text and he said, Are
you still up?
I'm like, unfortunately, yes.
(04:10):
I go, I'm not sleeping.
Right.
And he and he just apologized.
He was like, I'm so sorry foreverything.
I feel like the world'sshittiest husband.
Could you ever forgive me?
I was like, of course I canforgive you.
Like, yeah, it could just and hewas worried about what other
because my family knows,obviously.
Yeah, he was worried about likewhat people would think can like
(04:34):
stuff happens in marriages.
It could just be like a blip inour story.
Uh yes, of course I I canforgive you.
Then we had talked aboutpossibly moving into the house
because the house had beendelayed a little bit in the
construction, and so possiblymoving into the house.
(04:54):
And then again, we went to redlight.
Was that a call or a text?
It was a call.
Yeah.
A call.
I remember walking on the beachand having a call, and it was it
was like, I just see us asfriends, uh, yada yada yada.
So that would be in lateJanuary, and I had talked to a
(05:15):
lawyer, but I hadn't like doneanything yet.
Right.
Learn how to protect yourself,you know, talk to a lawyer, just
get some facts.
Um, so then in early February,just a couple weeks later, in
early February, I was back inAtlanta.
Because again, I want to live inAtlanta, so I came back to find
(05:36):
an apartment, and we had dinnerone night together.
He goes into his same points,and now he resents me for
leaving Salem's Club to go toNECO.
And the person I want to be withwould never leave a corporate
career to become a health coachand get all the points.
(05:59):
And he goes, I don't know whypeople feel like they have to
stay in an unhappy situation.
They're just words.
Again, about the vows.
And I was like, just words,they're vows.
He's like, I don't know why, youknow, my friends think they need
to stay in their unhappymarriages.
They're just words.
(06:20):
Like, no, they're vows.
And they cover the gamut ofthings for a reason.
Right.
Richer or poorer, sickness, thatlike they cover the gamut for a
reason.
They're not words.
And it would have been great toknow that you thought they were
just, you were just recitingwords, reciting words 10 years
ago.
That would have been great toknow.
(06:42):
So that time I believed him.
And that would have been earlyFebruary.
So I came back to Florida, justtalked to my lawyer.
She was like, Abby, she'samazing, by the way.
Melissa Davis, Buckhead FamilyLaw, amazing.
And she was like, Abby, I am notin the business of pushing
(07:02):
divorce on people, but there isa strategic advantage to filing
first.
So I, and this whole time, I wasfighting the divorce.
I didn't want this.
So that meant him taking everystep, even filing.
(07:23):
Like I wanted to be able to saythat he took all these steps.
Right.
But when I talked with her andshe said there's a strategic
advantage, I said, okay, let'sfile first.
And so it felt kind of good topunch back.
Yeah.
And so I had to call him andtell him that I filed.
(07:47):
And I think he was blindsided.
Well, first he claimed.
Yeah.
Uh he was just like, I'm tryingto do this without lawyers.
We know our finances.
He really wanted to do itoutside of lawyers.
I am not totally versed on allof the finances and how the
stock vests and the Walmartdeferred comp and all like we
(08:10):
lived well within our means.
Like we were savers.
So I know kind of like what'scoming in, what's going out.
But some of the other technicalstuff I wouldn't say I was
versed in.
So I knew enough to say, no, I'mgetting a lawyer.
Yeah.
And he was like, fine, if that'show you want to play this.
And I said, You chose this.
(08:32):
And he goes, You're goddamnright I did.
Oh.
Like, okay, then you chose this.
Right.
Yeah.
So I filed.
Yeah.
We're doing it.
And so then after that call, hetried to text me and call me and
just continued to try to get meto do this without lawyers
outside of outside of lawyers.
And at one point, like mystepdad was like responding for
(08:55):
me.
And and because it just keptcoming in.
And my stepdad like took myphone from me and he was like,
No, you've told them you'regetting a lawyer.
Yeah.
Go for a walk with your mom.
Leave your phone here.
Yep.
And so I did that.
unknown (09:10):
Oh.
SPEAKER_01 (09:13):
Alright.
So you now have representation.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
It sounds like divorce is quitethe lengthy process and journey.
So do you want to start us withI guess do you want to get into
the nitty-gritty of what toolsyou used during the divorce
process to get through it?
Um, it is a pro it was a processfor me.
For some that I've interviewed,it's not, it's not a lengthy
(09:35):
process.
Some people can do it outside oflawyers.
I felt very strongly that Ineeded legal representation.
Um, and then we later got a CPAinvolved, which was a great
decision.
Yep.
I I mean, for me, I would tellpeople, you certainly want a
lawyer and a CPA on your legalteam.
Because when you're innegotiation, because it's a
(09:58):
negotiation, right?
And you need someone who isn'twho is an expert, good at the
numbers, not emotionally tied tothings, you you need that.
And my legal team and CPA wereamazing.
Um, but yeah, so we filed.
And at first it's just what theycall like informal discovery,
(10:22):
which is basically like tell uswhere the money is.
Like, is there any money hidden?
And it's pretty much that.
What are the accounts?
How much is in it?
You know, stuff like that.
So I filed in February 2023.
And I would call Februarythrough August of 2023 ignorant
bliss.
Okay, bliss is definitely thewrong word.
(10:42):
It's not bliss, it's justignorance.
Just ignorance.
Because when I would tell peoplewhat was going on, you know, I'd
made several trips kind of backto Bentonville.
Um, I'd friends come, I'd metfriends back in Florida.
I was living in Atlanta.
I had gotten my apartment.
My I call it my shitty littleCarrie Bradshaw apartment.
(11:03):
And the complex I call thecollege dorm because these kids
are so young and they just likemarinate in the pool with their
like cellulite-free 20-year-oldskin.
It's so young.
But it's great, and it was allmine, it's right in the best
part of the city, and I justkind of showed up as the Abby
(11:29):
that I was starting in February2023.
Okay.
Yeah.
I know how to start over in acity by myself.
I did that in Bentonville, youknow, after grad school.
I can do that.
I jump into all the things, andI was just kind of my
extroverted social self.
And opportunities begin to findme, um, which was awesome, to be
(11:54):
on boards that I shouldn't like,I have no business being on some
of these boards.
I actually went to the NaturalHistory Museum Gala the
following year, and I wore thatdress because even Cinderella
went to the ball by herself.
Yes.
I went there and I actuallytalked to the president, and
they invited me to be on thecorporate leadership council.
(12:15):
So these opportunities startedto find me, and it was like,
okay, you're cultivating a lifein Atlanta.
But when I would tell people thestory of what happened, because
they were curious, they saw lessof him in my social posts.
I was doing all sorts of thingstoo.
I was doing so much stuff likeby myself.
(12:38):
You kind of you need to get usedto the fact that you will be
doing things by yourself.
But it also like built myconfidence.
But they saw less of him in inmy social media posts.
So there were questions.
And when I would share the storyand the reasons, they were just
like, that doesn't seem strongenough to end a marriage.
(12:59):
Yeah.
Are you sure?
And I'm like, he's the mostloyal person I know.
No, it's not like I don't thinkit's this other thing.
But enough people had saidthings.
And then I remembered I was in ameditation one afternoon,
because I meditate everyafternoon for just like 10-15
(13:19):
minutes.
And I was in a meditation out ofnowhere.
Nowhere.
This thought pops into my mindand it goes, wait a minute, why
wasn't there a refund on thecredit card for the Savannah
trip?
Wait a minute.
And that kicked off aninvestigation, let's say.
(13:44):
So this was when timing?
Because you had this would havethis would have been early
August.
Okay.
Because you ended the ignoranceperiod in August.
Yes.
Okay.
So this is in early August whereI was meditating and that
thought where I was like, where,wait a minute, why wasn't there
a refund?
Because you were supposed to goto Savannah when?
(14:04):
Back when I was in theapartment, um, I was kind of
going through finances and I sawa charge for a hotel in
Savannah.
And so I asked him about it.
I was like, oh, hey, what'sthis?
And he said, Oh, I got that forus as a surprise, but then you
went to Florida with Meg and atthat time, I was like, Oh,
(14:25):
that's so sweet.
I mean, we're right, we're inred light, green light.
Yes.
I'm in survival mode.
I'm like, that's so sweet.
I remember giving him a hug.
I mean, that's so nice.
Just it's a surprise.
Like, okay, yeah.
In that meditation, though, Ithought, wait a minute, where is
the refund?
And oh, by the way, Megan's gottwo little boys.
(14:49):
We had Florida planned formonths.
Like, it's not like we woke upone Friday and was like, let's
go to Florida, I'll meet youthere.
Like, no, this would have beenplanned for months.
And when I went back andchecked, it wasn't even the same
weekend.
So what the fuck was inSavannah?
(15:09):
Like that was the first puzzlepiece.
So for the next couple of weeks,I continued to find puzzle
pieces.
And I remember coming back toArkansas and sitting with you at
Blake Street, and we did thistogether.
We chat our computers up.
We each had our computers up.
(15:30):
Yep.
And we did this together.
And I made a pivot table of thecell phone log.
Listen, I could tell you so muchabout ATT policy of what shows
up on a call log, what shows upon an message, whether it's a
text message or an iMessage,basically, if you're on Wi-Fi or
(15:50):
on cellular, I could tell youall this stuff.
Put the puzzle pieces togetherand saw that one number came to
the top, and one number he wascalling every single day, like
on the way to work, every singleday on the way home from work.
(16:10):
And so I had a hunch based on adeleted text from that night in
Nashville that I just ignored oryou know, just didn't because he
was so loyal, I didn't thinkanything about it until you and
(16:37):
I started digging and puttingthe puzzle pieces together.
And when you call someone, goingback to the call log, when you
call someone every single day,and then there's strings of
three, four days where you'rethere's no calls between you,
guess what?
You're probably together.
And I can marry that up againstthe credit card statements and
(16:58):
be like, oh, I don't rememberbeing in Nashville, I don't
remember being in Miami, I don'tremember being in Savannah.
Oh.
Yep.
Okay.
You're having an affair.
That's what all this was.
You were having an affair.
(17:18):
And at that moment, the guilt,like this like weighted vest of
guilt that I've been carrying, Iit it symbolically felt like I
was taking it off and I wasputting it on him.
Like, no, no.
I know enough about affairs toknow that it's not about it's
not about the spouse, it's aboutyou and your bullshit and
(17:42):
whatever you're going through.
I'm not caring around thisanymore.
Yeah.
And after that, it was a wholenew ballgame.
Okay, so the investigation wasreally like unfortunately fun
because we were finding allsorts of just like backdoors and
Googling and over here, overhere, over here, pivot tables,
all this stuff.
So, what did you find out inyour investigation?
(18:04):
Yeah.
You're really good at that, bythe way.
I'm really good at that.
So he was having an affair witha colleague at work at the job
that we moved to Atlanta for.
They didn't know each otherprior, but man, they moved fast.
(18:24):
And while I don't know like theexact date, the earliest data
point that I have, you know,from the call log is that she
called him.
That was the first instance oflike personal cell phone
talking.
Um, she called him on hisbirthday at night, mid-May of
(18:49):
2022.
You don't just call a colleagueand wish him happy birthday at
night.
Like, you don't just do that.
Um, and it usually doesn't startwith a call, it starts with like
texts.
But texts, if it's an iMess, ifit's going like iPhone to
iPhone, if it's an iMessage or atext, and if you're on Wi-Fi or
(19:09):
cellular, like there's all theselike rules of like when it does
and doesn't show up on the textlog.
So the text log is a littletougher to decipher, but you
don't just start with a call.
Um, so it's I it's fair to inferthat the relationship started
before May 2022 via text whenshe was still married.
(19:38):
Her divorce wasn't finalizeduntil August, late August of
2022.
And when did he drop the I am anunhappy bomb?
That first weekend in Septemberof 2022.
Yeah.
It's funny how the all thepieces and parts of the puzzle
(20:00):
all come together to make thattidal end.
I had to just trust God's graceand timing that I found out the
way that I did because I foundout sitting with my best friend.
It was like one extreme to theother, but like we we did our we
(20:25):
did our search and our researchand like put the puzzle
together, and then we were ableto like laugh later that day and
spend time together.
And it just if I'd done it allby myself in Atlanta, like I
wouldn't have had my best friendwith me, yeah, kind of going
through this.
And you know what's so funny isum that weekend coming back from
(20:50):
Arkansas to Illinois, drivingback, I was on 44.
I've you know, Rap 44, and asemi-truck with the word
forgiveness on it was like atthe gas station.
Parked at the gas station that Ihappened to stop at to get gas.
And I look over, I see thissemi-truck with the word
(21:12):
forgiveness on it.
Son's like here, like thatsemi-trucks don't have like
inspirational phrases on them.
It was so so I remember taking apicture of it and sending it to
you and Meredith and being like,that's a sign.
Yep.
So that was two weeks before ourfirst scheduled mediation.
(21:37):
Okay.
And you would have thought Ifound the treasure map to the
holy grail.
Like the the fact that they wereco workers.
They were they worked at thesame company.
That's right.
Yes.
The company that, you know, thejob that we moved for, she
worked for the company.
(21:58):
That makes a lot of sense.
Yes.
And so when I found out, Ithought, like, I fucking got
him.
Yes.
Because at Walmart, people getfired for having an affairs.
Yes.
She was she was married also.
They were both married.
That's right.
Yeah.
And so I thought, oh my God, Ifucking got him.
Oh, here we go.
Yeah.
Because literally, we knowstories of Walmart leaders who
(22:21):
get fired.
Like both people get fired foran affair.
I had screenshots andPowerPoints and the pivot
tables.
I had so much evidence all on mycomputer.
And I was so like convinced thatsomehow like he knew that I
knew.
And so I carried my computerwith me everywhere.
(22:45):
Like in a locked briefcase.
Like I took it to the gym withme.
I took it to the grocery storewith me.
I like in a backpack.
I did not let that computerleave my side.
Well, he'd already gotten intoit once.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
Thank you.
He could do a turn a green lighton and come over and try it
again.
So we go to that firstmediation.
He comes in with some bullshitoffer.
(23:06):
And so I spin it back on him.
And I was like, Yep, we can dothat.
We spin it back on him, alongwith the mic drop of, oh yeah,
and we know about the affair.
Fair.
Right.
Yeah.
And so the mediator was in withhim for like an hour after that.
And then she came back.
And the balance sheet was likegetting sloppy at this point.
And I just, I felt rushed.
(23:29):
And I shared that with mylawyer.
And she was like, then we don'tsettle.
And so we didn't settle.
I walked away, and that kickedoff a formal discovery process.
And informal is like, just tellus where the money is.
Formal is you get intoeverything.
Formal is what did you have forlunch on February 22nd?
(23:50):
And you better be right becauseyou're going to produce a stool
sample.
So like it is, you're answeringlike every detail about your
life.
And oh, by the way, in Georgia,infidelity is a crime.
And only two states let a jurypreside over your divorce case
(24:14):
at the time of this recording.
I'm basically a paralegal atthis point.
Texas and Georgia allow jurytrials.
But when my lawyer told me thatit was a crime, I was like, can
he go to jail?
He's gonna go to jail to go tojail.
She was like, no, it's more likea speeding ticket.
Like, fine.
Okay.
With jail time though, right?
(24:34):
Right.
But because of that, there's asection in the formal discovery
process or in the formaldocument that talks about
extramarital affair.
And he pleaded the fifth.
So because infidelity is a crimein Georgia, we get to interpret
that as a yes.
Oh, okay.
(24:55):
Which it was.
Right.
Like we know that.
Yeah.
And depositions prove that.
So then there was a question ofdepositions.
Deposing him, deposing her.
And then, oh, because I wantedto do that, then Abby, you also
have to get deposed.
You just don't get to not getdeposed.
(25:16):
Yeah.
And so we had my deposition andthen his deposition and her
deposition.
I go into my deposition.
They got nothing on me.
Like, I'm I'm squeaky clean.
I remember his lawyer is askingme some questions about like
prescriptions and medications.
And I tell her, Oh, I'm on thislike yeast overgrowth herb.
(25:40):
She's like, what's that for?
Like, what's for my candida?
What's candida?
Well, it's yeast overgrowth inyour stomach.
Well, how do you know when youhave it?
Well, my face breaks out.
Well, who prescribed it for you?
My chiropractor.
Like, keep coming.
How in the world is my candida?
We can talk about candida.
We can talk my candida.
How is this even relevant to himhaving an affair?
(26:01):
Please come at me with healthtalk.
I'm gonna take you down so manyrabbit holes.
And then another one was umthere was a charge because you
have to produce all yourexpenses.
There's a charge for like$5,000.
And I couldn't remember what itwas for.
It was like for infinityservices.
(26:21):
And the moment I like, Icouldn't remember.
And she goes, Is it jewelry?
And I go, No, like, I don'tknow.
And then I looked at, I'm like,is that is that my CPA to my
lawyer?
And she's like, Oh, yeah, yeah,yeah.
That's Chad.
I'm like, oh yeah, okay, it'sit's Chad, it's my CPA.
And and his lawyer was like, Areyou sure it's not earrings?
I'm like, No, it's not.
(26:44):
I don't buy jewelry.
She was like, What's what's thelast jewelry you bought?
Like, I think a pair of earringsat a flame market in Italy.
Like, they were not$5,000.
So I made her work.
Like, I had I had prep sessionswith my lawyer on prepping for
the depot for mine.
(27:05):
My lawyer was like, You like shecoached me through it.
Like, you just answer thequestion.
You don't elaborate on it, youjust answer what's being asked.
And you could ask people toclarify and like you you make
sure you understand what's trulybeing asked.
Like the question, do you knowwhat time it is?
It's 8 30.
(27:26):
No.
The question is, do you knowwhat time it is?
Yes.
Yes.
Like, so yeah.
Yeah.
So I made his lawyer work forevery single answer.
And then in a break, he made acomment.
I've never seen Abby like thisbefore in my life.
Like, fuck no, you haven't.
(27:47):
Yeah, right.
Because guess what?
I'm fighting back.
Like you haven't seen this,Abby, before.
Because I freeze and I don't doanything around you.
But guess what?
I love conflict.
Bring it on.
Yeah, I love to negotiate.
Let's go.
So um to hear that, I was like,yeah, you know what?
I totally did puff up.
And and you haven't even seen meyet.
(28:11):
Right.
Yeah.
And then we had obviously hisand her depositions were not as
much fun as mine.
My lawyer poached me on theirdepots also and said, you don't
win a deposition.
It's not about depots are justabout gathering information.
It's not about like catchingthem in a lie and like proving
(28:35):
them wrong and like winning thedepot.
She's like, it's just aboutgathering information because
where you want to prove them aliar is when they're on the
stand in court in front of ajury.
That's where you want to kind ofcatch them flat footed, not in a
depot.
And so it was hard for me tokind of like hear his responses
(29:02):
to things and not like be like,oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
look, see, right here, thatdoesn't make any like it was
hard for me to not prove hisnarrative wrong on like pretty
much everything.
And to just kind of sit there.
No, I'm I'm allowed to like takenotes, take notes and pass my
lawyer notes and so you were inthe room with her.
(29:23):
And her.
Yeah.
No, they did them separately.
Right, but you were stilllooking at her face to face.
Yeah, I'm in the room with bothof them.
It was tough.
Obviously, it was tough.
But I will say it wasn't asemotional as I thought it was
going to be.
Because I I was almost like sobusy tracking and disproving
(29:51):
what he was saying with throughevidence of texts.
Like I saved all of our textmessages for like a year through
cell phone logs, through cards,through social media.
Like I had all this evidencethat kind of disproved their
stories.
And so while he's recitingsomething, I'm able to jot it
(30:14):
down and like hand it to mylawyer.
So I'm I'm like working.
I'm working.
Yeah.
I'm not really like sittingthere listening, letting it like
absorb into me.
Now it has later, obviously.
And my lawyer came on fire.
She came on fire in thosedepots.
Melissa Davis, Buckhead FamilyLaw, amazing.
(30:35):
They gave me some softballs tostart with in my depot.
And my lawyer and I talked aboutthe strategy, and I'm like,
punch him in the face coming outof the gate.
Don't give him softballs oflike, where did you go to
college?
Right.
Like, what's your first job?
Like, don't give him thosesoftballs.
I don't care.
Punch him.
And so the first question out ofthe gate was when was the first
time you and her had sex?
(30:58):
Yeah.
He was like, okay.
Yeah.
We're getting ready to punchout.
Don't even buy me a drink.
And because that's like, yeah, Iwanted to know.
And I had friends come at me andbe like, Do you really want to
know these details?
I do.
Yes.
I do.
You know?
It was like cathartic.
Yeah.
Fuck if it wasn't the exact sametime we're in red light, green
(31:21):
light.
He's having sex with both of us.
Unprotected sex with both of us.
Hmm.
Yeah, my lawyer came on fire.
Um, I remember there wassomething around um another
company in Atlanta, another bigretailer in Atlanta was talking
to him about a job, and therewas like an NDA about it.
(31:43):
But you have to produce all thatstuff.
Like, if you're gonna leave yourcurrent role to go to a
different job, that's gonnaaffect your stock and what vests
and all those are maritalassets, except like you have to
disclose all of that.
And so my lawyer asked him aquestion about this other role.
He was like, Well, I can't tellyou.
He got kind of snippy, and hewas like, Well, I can't tell you
because of the NDA.
(32:04):
And she goes, Oh, but you cantell your girlfriend.
And it was just like mic drop.
And he just looked at her, I waslike, Yeah.
Um, so and then he went in andanswered the question.
And I just wanted to be like, Ican't on the playground be like,
oh, if she got you, she burnedyou.
Like she came on fire.
(32:26):
And then like the night beforeher deposition, my lawyer and I
are passing, we're texting backand forth.
Like she's getting on Facebooklooking at things.
I'm going through like my notes.
I'm just saying, do not havedon't have an affair ever, like
ever, but don't have an affairin Georgia because you will have
(32:48):
to, as the paramour, you willhave to produce so much stuff
about your life.
Like, you have to produce textsbetween you and my husband,
texts, but the group texts, likeyou have to produce so much
also.
Yeah, you can't delete anything.
(33:08):
Yes, just don't do it, it's notworth it.
Um, so she had to produce allthis stuff.
I had to go through it as partof depot prep.
It's just like I rememberreading their texts and the
words they were using, and youcould have literally overlaid
(33:30):
our texts on top of it.
Like, okay, baby, good morning,love, sure thing be, like the
same exact words of endearmentwere in both of ours.
Wow, yeah.
So that like that was reallyhard to read, obviously.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
And then she had to producepictures of them, and so like
(33:52):
looking at all that was tough,but in her depot, you can't say
anything, you know.
I'm not allowed to to sayanything, but being if I'm
scribbling notes and likepushing them to my lawyer in her
depot to hear her talk aboutstarting a life with someone at
(34:16):
the expense of mine.
Like your boyfriend is myhusband, right?
Yeah.
The last time he and I wereintimate would have been
December of 2022 when he came tomy Airbnb.
Well, I thought that was January18th.
No, no, no.
That's when he sent the text.
Oh, okay.
Yes, that's when he sent thetext.
Before that, in in December,yes, like you know, around the
(34:40):
holidays, I had the Airbnb inAtlanta and he came over and
stayed the night.
And I guess he had told herabout that, like the last time
we had sex.
And that came up in the depots,and I scribbled around like,
why?
And my lawyer was like, Whywould he tell you that if you
guys were like off or whatever?
(35:00):
And she was like, I think hejust wanted to start a
relationship on a foundation oftrust and honesty.
If you could hear the eye rollin my and my eyes roll back in
my head.
I was just and you can't say youcan't see it, say anything.
(35:23):
I wish I could have been like,uh, but like uh okay, you guys
were both married.
A foundation of trust andhonesty.
You got a real solid foundationthere.
Wow.
Yeah.
Wow.
Yeah.
So I mean, that's why the bookisn't again, it's not ha ha
(35:47):
funny, but looking back, thereare some pretty funny moments.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So having an outlet to sharethat kind of stuff, well, like
with you, with other friends,just to to be like, you see how
absurd this is, right?
Having that network of supportlike was everything to me.
(36:13):
Helped me get through it.
It and it's so important.
So your journal is all you'retalking about.
No, no, I'm saying like myjournal has all like my
feelings, but then being able totext you.
Text you, oh my gosh.
Just like how stupid andhilarious is this?
Yes.
Having those types of outlets ofother people to kind of be in it
(36:34):
with you is really helpful.
So we got through depots, andthen we had our second
mediation.
We did come to a settlementthere.
Uh, and it was either gonna bewe settle or we go to jury
trial.
Part of me wanted to go to jurytrial just to be a thorid in his
side.
But after some soul searching,it was like, that's not a reason
(36:58):
to go.
So we did kind of come to afinal settlement.
And I remember looking at thepiece of paper that had kind of
the over and above the 50, andlooking at that amount and just
thinking, this is not indicativeof the pain I have felt in the
(37:22):
last year and a half.
And I remember crying.
And my CPA is there, my lawyeris there.
I think they just kind of lookedat each other like, and I was
just like, I'm sorry, I haven'tcried in a really long time.
And I'm just thinking, like,this is not this is not fair.
Like this is there's basicallylike no consequence.
(37:44):
Like looking at like there'sbasically no consequence for
infidelity, thinking this isn'tfair and this isn't indicative
of the pain that I have felt.
Nope.
I think that's part of thelesson, and I know that's
something you know my lawyerwould coach me on is divorce
just gets you divorced.
It doesn't scratch any itch forlike justice, if if that makes
(38:08):
sense.
So then we were able to come toabout you know 85% of the way
there.
There was a few things that wedidn't come to an agreement on,
and so we finally settledeverything through arbitration,
where an arbitrate the mediatorbecame an arbitrator and just
made a final judgment on someoutstanding items.
(38:29):
And then it was over, done.
Yeah.
And that was so funny enough,funny enough, Labor Day weekend
2022.
I stepped on that landmine, thatinvisible landmine, and I got
the final divorce decree fromthe g from back from the judge
(38:51):
saying you were divorced.
I got that back Labor Dayweekend of 2024.
Wow.
Two years.
Of hell.
Of hell.
Just yeah, yeah.
So my my lawyer several timesshe was like, you can't win
divorce, Abby.
(39:12):
Which is very hard for me toaccept.
Well, competitive Abby.
Yeah, I have a hard timeaccepting you can't win
everything.
So but but it's later, after wehad settled, she was like, Abby,
you won your divorce.
(39:32):
If you think about where youwere starting and what you ended
up with, you won.
Meaning where it was startingwas if I rewind the clock, back
in one of our green light phaseswhen I was in Florida and he was
in Atlanta, I think it was likea homework assignment from his
(39:54):
therapist was what would Abbyneed to see from you going
forward?
What would you need to see fromAbby going forward?
And he kind of shared that withme.
So I had, and so we were gonnahave a conversation and talk
about it.
So I had done my homework withthings like better
communication, um, getting backinto our hobbies.
(40:14):
We did a FaceTime, and so I wentthrough my list and like um you
know, a focus on health andwellness and things like that.
And then it was his turn, and itwas kind of like, yeah, I agree
with all these points, but oh,by the way, I'm gonna send you
an Excel sheet.
And the Excel sheet is here'swhat you have earned in our
(40:40):
marriage.
If I go back to your startingsalary as a project manager at
Walmart, so he had created anExcel sheet of like the 10 years
we've been married and what mystarting salary was as a project
manager, bonus, stock, like, andthen I my my promotion to senior
(41:00):
manager and then promotion todirector, and then at NEVCO,
he's like, here's what you'veearned in the marriage.
It was basically trying to getme to agree to a post-nuptial
agreement, forcing me into apost-nuptial agreement, and was
like, you don't unless you agreeto this, you don't get me.
(41:21):
You don't get me unless youagree to this.
Because like the money was partof the the things I need to see
from Abby, uh, part of thehomework from the therapist.
It felt like an ambush.
Yeah.
I I at least had the wherewithalto be like, I'm not agreeing to
this.
And of course, it was like,well, if if money wasn't
(41:42):
everything to you, then youwould agree to it.
It's like, no, that wasn't thespirit of the exercise.
I literally just went through alist of other things.
I know of the things that make amarriage.
Right.
You know, these are the thingsthat that make a good marriage.
This, like, finances don't keepa marriage together.
And I'm not agreeing to this.
(42:03):
Like, no, that's not the spiritof of the conversation that we
were supposed to have.
Right.
So, all like, so that numberwas, you know, what Abby had
earned in in the 10 years of themarriage, that number was not
even a fraction of like what Iwalked away with.
So my Laura was like, again,where are you where he was
(42:24):
starting mentally and where youended up actually?
She was like, Abby, you won thedivorce.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Got it.
I feel better now.
That'd be great.
Uh, but like, still, that likeit's painful.
Yeah.
(42:45):
Even you can have all the moneyin the world, and it's still
painful.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (42:53):
Thanks for listening to Bitter or Better, where we
turn heartbreak into healing andsurvival into strength.
As Brene Brown says,vulnerability is the last thing
we want to show, but the firstthing we look for in others.
That's what this is all about.
Real people showing up, sharingtheir stories, and reminding the
rest of us that we're not alone.
(43:13):
If this episode resonated withyou, share it with someone who
might need to hear it too.
And remember, you have a choicebetter or better.
See you next time for more realstories, real people, and real
resilience.
Welcome to Bitter or Better Real Stories of Divorce
and Resilience.
The podcast that gets real aboutthe messy middle of divorce and
what it takes to come outstronger on the other side.
I'm your host, Abby England,marketer, national board
certified health and wellnesscoach, and author of the
upcoming book, Bitter or Better,and I've personally earned my
(00:21):
divorce Kevlar.
This podcast isn't legal advice.
It isn't tips and tricks anddon't forget and hacks and
how-tos.
There's plenty of other podcastsout there interviewing lawyers,
therapists, accountants, allsorts of divorce scientists.
This podcast is raw, realconversations with everyday
(00:42):
people who have jobs, kids,responsibilities, and
commitments, and yet they'veweathered the heartbreak,
rebuilt their lives, and foundunexpected strength along the
way.
Because while divorce can breakyou, it can also make you
better.
You are not alone.
Let's hear someone else's storyand see what resonates.
SPEAKER_01 (01:01):
And you would think that the red light, green light
ends there, but it doesn't.
It doesn't.
Wow.
Yeah.
So even in Florida, I'm inFlorida, he's in Atlanta.
The red light, green lightcontinues.
I remember it was Thanksgiving.
I my my family had some extendedfamily over at the house, and
(01:23):
we're having Thanksgiving lunch.
And it was during a green lightphase, and I hear my phone
buzzes, and I and my stepdad istwo feet away from me at
Thanksgiving lunch.
Okay, and I look down and myphone buzz.
And it's a fucking dick pic.
It must be a dick pic.
(01:44):
My stepdad is two feet away.
Not I don't know how far twofeet, two feet away, probably.
And I'm like, holy um, I gottago downstairs because my family
knows what's going on, so I kindof get to use it as an excuse.
But I go downstairs and I sendthem a picture back, and then we
(02:05):
FaceTime uh are intimate witheach other with my family
upstairs at Thanksgiving lunchon FaceTime.
On FaceTime.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Uh green light.
Um and on our anniversary fellowin there because our anniversary
um was this 10 years, wasn't it?
Or yeah, that was gonna be 10years.
(02:26):
Yeah, you're right.
And we had talked about in oneof those green light phases, we
had talked about going to likeVermont or something.
And then red light.
Red light.
Yeah, yeah, red light.
I would have been probably likemid-December.
I was came back to Atlantabecause I'm like, I like
Atlanta.
I want to live here, it'sawesome.
So I gotta build a network.
(02:47):
And so I came back for like anAmerican Marketing Association
holiday party.
I stayed in an Airbnb, and heand I had kind of like been
texting about possibly doingdinner when I was back.
We scheduled a dinner and it wasnice, you know.
It was he talked about work atthat point.
He had seen a therapist a coupleof times, and so we talked
(03:07):
because I had like again, Icontinued to ask him, and at one
point was just like, just golike go for you.
Right, go for you, right?
And so we talked a little bitabout that.
Um, and then he mentionedsomething about London, our dog,
and I just I like lost it.
And so I was like, I I gotta go.
And so we left, and then hetexted me later to like check in
(03:30):
on me, and it led to sexting,and he came over that night and
stayed at my Airbnb, um, and wecuddled the whole night, and
then there was talk about him ortalk about inviting me to his
family for Christmas.
(03:50):
It was, and then there was thatfell through, you know, there
was a red light.
And then I remember on January18th at 11 p.m.
So we're in like a red lightphase.
Yes.
January 18th at 11 p.m., hesends me a text and he said, Are
you still up?
I'm like, unfortunately, yes.
(04:10):
I go, I'm not sleeping.
Right.
And he and he just apologized.
He was like, I'm so sorry foreverything.
I feel like the world'sshittiest husband.
Could you ever forgive me?
I was like, of course I canforgive you.
Like, yeah, it could just and hewas worried about what other
because my family knows,obviously.
Yeah, he was worried about likewhat people would think can like
(04:34):
stuff happens in marriages.
It could just be like a blip inour story.
Uh yes, of course I I canforgive you.
Then we had talked aboutpossibly moving into the house
because the house had beendelayed a little bit in the
construction, and so possiblymoving into the house.
(04:54):
And then again, we went to redlight.
Was that a call or a text?
It was a call.
Yeah.
A call.
I remember walking on the beachand having a call, and it was it
was like, I just see us asfriends, uh, yada yada yada.
So that would be in lateJanuary, and I had talked to a
(05:15):
lawyer, but I hadn't like doneanything yet.
Right.
Learn how to protect yourself,you know, talk to a lawyer, just
get some facts.
Um, so then in early February,just a couple weeks later, in
early February, I was back inAtlanta.
Because again, I want to live inAtlanta, so I came back to find
(05:36):
an apartment, and we had dinnerone night together.
He goes into his same points,and now he resents me for
leaving Salem's Club to go toNECO.
And the person I want to be withwould never leave a corporate
career to become a health coachand get all the points.
(05:59):
And he goes, I don't know whypeople feel like they have to
stay in an unhappy situation.
They're just words.
Again, about the vows.
And I was like, just words,they're vows.
He's like, I don't know why, youknow, my friends think they need
to stay in their unhappymarriages.
They're just words.
(06:20):
Like, no, they're vows.
And they cover the gamut ofthings for a reason.
Right.
Richer or poorer, sickness, thatlike they cover the gamut for a
reason.
They're not words.
And it would have been great toknow that you thought they were
just, you were just recitingwords, reciting words 10 years
ago.
That would have been great toknow.
(06:42):
So that time I believed him.
And that would have been earlyFebruary.
So I came back to Florida, justtalked to my lawyer.
She was like, Abby, she'samazing, by the way.
Melissa Davis, Buckhead FamilyLaw, amazing.
And she was like, Abby, I am notin the business of pushing
(07:02):
divorce on people, but there isa strategic advantage to filing
first.
So I, and this whole time, I wasfighting the divorce.
I didn't want this.
So that meant him taking everystep, even filing.
(07:23):
Like I wanted to be able to saythat he took all these steps.
Right.
But when I talked with her andshe said there's a strategic
advantage, I said, okay, let'sfile first.
And so it felt kind of good topunch back.
Yeah.
And so I had to call him andtell him that I filed.
(07:47):
And I think he was blindsided.
Well, first he claimed.
Yeah.
Uh he was just like, I'm tryingto do this without lawyers.
We know our finances.
He really wanted to do itoutside of lawyers.
I am not totally versed on allof the finances and how the
stock vests and the Walmartdeferred comp and all like we
(08:10):
lived well within our means.
Like we were savers.
So I know kind of like what'scoming in, what's going out.
But some of the other technicalstuff I wouldn't say I was
versed in.
So I knew enough to say, no, I'mgetting a lawyer.
Yeah.
And he was like, fine, if that'show you want to play this.
And I said, You chose this.
(08:32):
And he goes, You're goddamnright I did.
Oh.
Like, okay, then you chose this.
Right.
Yeah.
So I filed.
Yeah.
We're doing it.
And so then after that call, hetried to text me and call me and
just continued to try to get meto do this without lawyers
outside of outside of lawyers.
And at one point, like mystepdad was like responding for
(08:55):
me.
And and because it just keptcoming in.
And my stepdad like took myphone from me and he was like,
No, you've told them you'regetting a lawyer.
Yeah.
Go for a walk with your mom.
Leave your phone here.
Yep.
And so I did that.
unknown (09:10):
Oh.
SPEAKER_01 (09:13):
Alright.
So you now have representation.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
It sounds like divorce is quitethe lengthy process and journey.
So do you want to start us withI guess do you want to get into
the nitty-gritty of what toolsyou used during the divorce
process to get through it?
Um, it is a pro it was a processfor me.
For some that I've interviewed,it's not, it's not a lengthy
(09:35):
process.
Some people can do it outside oflawyers.
I felt very strongly that Ineeded legal representation.
Um, and then we later got a CPAinvolved, which was a great
decision.
Yep.
I I mean, for me, I would tellpeople, you certainly want a
lawyer and a CPA on your legalteam.
Because when you're innegotiation, because it's a
(09:58):
negotiation, right?
And you need someone who isn'twho is an expert, good at the
numbers, not emotionally tied tothings, you you need that.
And my legal team and CPA wereamazing.
Um, but yeah, so we filed.
And at first it's just what theycall like informal discovery,
(10:22):
which is basically like tell uswhere the money is.
Like, is there any money hidden?
And it's pretty much that.
What are the accounts?
How much is in it?
You know, stuff like that.
So I filed in February 2023.
And I would call Februarythrough August of 2023 ignorant
bliss.
Okay, bliss is definitely thewrong word.
(10:42):
It's not bliss, it's justignorance.
Just ignorance.
Because when I would tell peoplewhat was going on, you know, I'd
made several trips kind of backto Bentonville.
Um, I'd friends come, I'd metfriends back in Florida.
I was living in Atlanta.
I had gotten my apartment.
My I call it my shitty littleCarrie Bradshaw apartment.
(11:03):
And the complex I call thecollege dorm because these kids
are so young and they just likemarinate in the pool with their
like cellulite-free 20-year-oldskin.
It's so young.
But it's great, and it was allmine, it's right in the best
part of the city, and I justkind of showed up as the Abby
(11:29):
that I was starting in February2023.
Okay.
Yeah.
I know how to start over in acity by myself.
I did that in Bentonville, youknow, after grad school.
I can do that.
I jump into all the things, andI was just kind of my
extroverted social self.
And opportunities begin to findme, um, which was awesome, to be
(11:54):
on boards that I shouldn't like,I have no business being on some
of these boards.
I actually went to the NaturalHistory Museum Gala the
following year, and I wore thatdress because even Cinderella
went to the ball by herself.
Yes.
I went there and I actuallytalked to the president, and
they invited me to be on thecorporate leadership council.
(12:15):
So these opportunities startedto find me, and it was like,
okay, you're cultivating a lifein Atlanta.
But when I would tell people thestory of what happened, because
they were curious, they saw lessof him in my social posts.
I was doing all sorts of thingstoo.
I was doing so much stuff likeby myself.
(12:38):
You kind of you need to get usedto the fact that you will be
doing things by yourself.
But it also like built myconfidence.
But they saw less of him in inmy social media posts.
So there were questions.
And when I would share the storyand the reasons, they were just
like, that doesn't seem strongenough to end a marriage.
(12:59):
Yeah.
Are you sure?
And I'm like, he's the mostloyal person I know.
No, it's not like I don't thinkit's this other thing.
But enough people had saidthings.
And then I remembered I was in ameditation one afternoon,
because I meditate everyafternoon for just like 10-15
(13:19):
minutes.
And I was in a meditation out ofnowhere.
Nowhere.
This thought pops into my mindand it goes, wait a minute, why
wasn't there a refund on thecredit card for the Savannah
trip?
Wait a minute.
And that kicked off aninvestigation, let's say.
(13:44):
So this was when timing?
Because you had this would havethis would have been early
August.
Okay.
Because you ended the ignoranceperiod in August.
Yes.
Okay.
So this is in early August whereI was meditating and that
thought where I was like, where,wait a minute, why wasn't there
a refund?
Because you were supposed to goto Savannah when?
(14:04):
Back when I was in theapartment, um, I was kind of
going through finances and I sawa charge for a hotel in
Savannah.
And so I asked him about it.
I was like, oh, hey, what'sthis?
And he said, Oh, I got that forus as a surprise, but then you
went to Florida with Meg and atthat time, I was like, Oh,
(14:25):
that's so sweet.
I mean, we're right, we're inred light, green light.
Yes.
I'm in survival mode.
I'm like, that's so sweet.
I remember giving him a hug.
I mean, that's so nice.
Just it's a surprise.
Like, okay, yeah.
In that meditation, though, Ithought, wait a minute, where is
the refund?
And oh, by the way, Megan's gottwo little boys.
(14:49):
We had Florida planned formonths.
Like, it's not like we woke upone Friday and was like, let's
go to Florida, I'll meet youthere.
Like, no, this would have beenplanned for months.
And when I went back andchecked, it wasn't even the same
weekend.
So what the fuck was inSavannah?
(15:09):
Like that was the first puzzlepiece.
So for the next couple of weeks,I continued to find puzzle
pieces.
And I remember coming back toArkansas and sitting with you at
Blake Street, and we did thistogether.
We chat our computers up.
We each had our computers up.
(15:30):
Yep.
And we did this together.
And I made a pivot table of thecell phone log.
Listen, I could tell you so muchabout ATT policy of what shows
up on a call log, what shows upon an message, whether it's a
text message or an iMessage,basically, if you're on Wi-Fi or
(15:50):
on cellular, I could tell youall this stuff.
Put the puzzle pieces togetherand saw that one number came to
the top, and one number he wascalling every single day, like
on the way to work, every singleday on the way home from work.
(16:10):
And so I had a hunch based on adeleted text from that night in
Nashville that I just ignored oryou know, just didn't because he
was so loyal, I didn't thinkanything about it until you and
(16:37):
I started digging and puttingthe puzzle pieces together.
And when you call someone, goingback to the call log, when you
call someone every single day,and then there's strings of
three, four days where you'rethere's no calls between you,
guess what?
You're probably together.
And I can marry that up againstthe credit card statements and
(16:58):
be like, oh, I don't rememberbeing in Nashville, I don't
remember being in Miami, I don'tremember being in Savannah.
Oh.
Yep.
Okay.
You're having an affair.
That's what all this was.
You were having an affair.
(17:18):
And at that moment, the guilt,like this like weighted vest of
guilt that I've been carrying, Iit it symbolically felt like I
was taking it off and I wasputting it on him.
Like, no, no.
I know enough about affairs toknow that it's not about it's
not about the spouse, it's aboutyou and your bullshit and
(17:42):
whatever you're going through.
I'm not caring around thisanymore.
Yeah.
And after that, it was a wholenew ballgame.
Okay, so the investigation wasreally like unfortunately fun
because we were finding allsorts of just like backdoors and
Googling and over here, overhere, over here, pivot tables,
all this stuff.
So, what did you find out inyour investigation?
(18:04):
Yeah.
You're really good at that, bythe way.
I'm really good at that.
So he was having an affair witha colleague at work at the job
that we moved to Atlanta for.
They didn't know each otherprior, but man, they moved fast.
(18:24):
And while I don't know like theexact date, the earliest data
point that I have, you know,from the call log is that she
called him.
That was the first instance oflike personal cell phone
talking.
Um, she called him on hisbirthday at night, mid-May of
(18:49):
2022.
You don't just call a colleagueand wish him happy birthday at
night.
Like, you don't just do that.
Um, and it usually doesn't startwith a call, it starts with like
texts.
But texts, if it's an iMess, ifit's going like iPhone to
iPhone, if it's an iMessage or atext, and if you're on Wi-Fi or
(19:09):
cellular, like there's all theselike rules of like when it does
and doesn't show up on the textlog.
So the text log is a littletougher to decipher, but you
don't just start with a call.
Um, so it's I it's fair to inferthat the relationship started
before May 2022 via text whenshe was still married.
(19:38):
Her divorce wasn't finalizeduntil August, late August of
2022.
And when did he drop the I am anunhappy bomb?
That first weekend in Septemberof 2022.
Yeah.
It's funny how the all thepieces and parts of the puzzle
(20:00):
all come together to make thattidal end.
I had to just trust God's graceand timing that I found out the
way that I did because I foundout sitting with my best friend.
It was like one extreme to theother, but like we we did our we
(20:25):
did our search and our researchand like put the puzzle
together, and then we were ableto like laugh later that day and
spend time together.
And it just if I'd done it allby myself in Atlanta, like I
wouldn't have had my best friendwith me, yeah, kind of going
through this.
And you know what's so funny isum that weekend coming back from
(20:50):
Arkansas to Illinois, drivingback, I was on 44.
I've you know, Rap 44, and asemi-truck with the word
forgiveness on it was like atthe gas station.
Parked at the gas station that Ihappened to stop at to get gas.
And I look over, I see thissemi-truck with the word
(21:12):
forgiveness on it.
Son's like here, like thatsemi-trucks don't have like
inspirational phrases on them.
It was so so I remember taking apicture of it and sending it to
you and Meredith and being like,that's a sign.
Yep.
So that was two weeks before ourfirst scheduled mediation.
(21:37):
Okay.
And you would have thought Ifound the treasure map to the
holy grail.
Like the the fact that they wereco workers.
They were they worked at thesame company.
That's right.
Yes.
The company that, you know, thejob that we moved for, she
worked for the company.
(21:58):
That makes a lot of sense.
Yes.
And so when I found out, Ithought, like, I fucking got
him.
Yes.
Because at Walmart, people getfired for having an affairs.
Yes.
She was she was married also.
They were both married.
That's right.
Yeah.
And so I thought, oh my God, Ifucking got him.
Oh, here we go.
Yeah.
Because literally, we knowstories of Walmart leaders who
(22:21):
get fired.
Like both people get fired foran affair.
I had screenshots andPowerPoints and the pivot
tables.
I had so much evidence all on mycomputer.
And I was so like convinced thatsomehow like he knew that I
knew.
And so I carried my computerwith me everywhere.
(22:45):
Like in a locked briefcase.
Like I took it to the gym withme.
I took it to the grocery storewith me.
I like in a backpack.
I did not let that computerleave my side.
Well, he'd already gotten intoit once.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
Thank you.
He could do a turn a green lighton and come over and try it
again.
So we go to that firstmediation.
He comes in with some bullshitoffer.
(23:06):
And so I spin it back on him.
And I was like, Yep, we can dothat.
We spin it back on him, alongwith the mic drop of, oh yeah,
and we know about the affair.
Fair.
Right.
Yeah.
And so the mediator was in withhim for like an hour after that.
And then she came back.
And the balance sheet was likegetting sloppy at this point.
And I just, I felt rushed.
(23:29):
And I shared that with mylawyer.
And she was like, then we don'tsettle.
And so we didn't settle.
I walked away, and that kickedoff a formal discovery process.
And informal is like, just tellus where the money is.
Formal is you get intoeverything.
Formal is what did you have forlunch on February 22nd?
(23:50):
And you better be right becauseyou're going to produce a stool
sample.
So like it is, you're answeringlike every detail about your
life.
And oh, by the way, in Georgia,infidelity is a crime.
And only two states let a jurypreside over your divorce case
(24:14):
at the time of this recording.
I'm basically a paralegal atthis point.
Texas and Georgia allow jurytrials.
But when my lawyer told me thatit was a crime, I was like, can
he go to jail?
He's gonna go to jail to go tojail.
She was like, no, it's more likea speeding ticket.
Like, fine.
Okay.
With jail time though, right?
(24:34):
Right.
But because of that, there's asection in the formal discovery
process or in the formaldocument that talks about
extramarital affair.
And he pleaded the fifth.
So because infidelity is a crimein Georgia, we get to interpret
that as a yes.
Oh, okay.
(24:55):
Which it was.
Right.
Like we know that.
Yeah.
And depositions prove that.
So then there was a question ofdepositions.
Deposing him, deposing her.
And then, oh, because I wantedto do that, then Abby, you also
have to get deposed.
You just don't get to not getdeposed.
(25:16):
Yeah.
And so we had my deposition andthen his deposition and her
deposition.
I go into my deposition.
They got nothing on me.
Like, I'm I'm squeaky clean.
I remember his lawyer is askingme some questions about like
prescriptions and medications.
And I tell her, Oh, I'm on thislike yeast overgrowth herb.
(25:40):
She's like, what's that for?
Like, what's for my candida?
What's candida?
Well, it's yeast overgrowth inyour stomach.
Well, how do you know when youhave it?
Well, my face breaks out.
Well, who prescribed it for you?
My chiropractor.
Like, keep coming.
How in the world is my candida?
We can talk about candida.
We can talk my candida.
How is this even relevant to himhaving an affair?
(26:01):
Please come at me with healthtalk.
I'm gonna take you down so manyrabbit holes.
And then another one was umthere was a charge because you
have to produce all yourexpenses.
There's a charge for like$5,000.
And I couldn't remember what itwas for.
It was like for infinityservices.
(26:21):
And the moment I like, Icouldn't remember.
And she goes, Is it jewelry?
And I go, No, like, I don'tknow.
And then I looked at, I'm like,is that is that my CPA to my
lawyer?
And she's like, Oh, yeah, yeah,yeah.
That's Chad.
I'm like, oh yeah, okay, it'sit's Chad, it's my CPA.
And and his lawyer was like, Areyou sure it's not earrings?
I'm like, No, it's not.
(26:44):
I don't buy jewelry.
She was like, What's what's thelast jewelry you bought?
Like, I think a pair of earringsat a flame market in Italy.
Like, they were not$5,000.
So I made her work.
Like, I had I had prep sessionswith my lawyer on prepping for
the depot for mine.
(27:05):
My lawyer was like, You like shecoached me through it.
Like, you just answer thequestion.
You don't elaborate on it, youjust answer what's being asked.
And you could ask people toclarify and like you you make
sure you understand what's trulybeing asked.
Like the question, do you knowwhat time it is?
It's 8 30.
(27:26):
No.
The question is, do you knowwhat time it is?
Yes.
Yes.
Like, so yeah.
Yeah.
So I made his lawyer work forevery single answer.
And then in a break, he made acomment.
I've never seen Abby like thisbefore in my life.
Like, fuck no, you haven't.
(27:47):
Yeah, right.
Because guess what?
I'm fighting back.
Like you haven't seen this,Abby, before.
Because I freeze and I don't doanything around you.
But guess what?
I love conflict.
Bring it on.
Yeah, I love to negotiate.
Let's go.
So um to hear that, I was like,yeah, you know what?
I totally did puff up.
And and you haven't even seen meyet.
(28:11):
Right.
Yeah.
And then we had obviously hisand her depositions were not as
much fun as mine.
My lawyer poached me on theirdepots also and said, you don't
win a deposition.
It's not about depots are justabout gathering information.
It's not about like catchingthem in a lie and like proving
(28:35):
them wrong and like winning thedepot.
She's like, it's just aboutgathering information because
where you want to prove them aliar is when they're on the
stand in court in front of ajury.
That's where you want to kind ofcatch them flat footed, not in a
depot.
And so it was hard for me tokind of like hear his responses
(29:02):
to things and not like be like,oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
look, see, right here, thatdoesn't make any like it was
hard for me to not prove hisnarrative wrong on like pretty
much everything.
And to just kind of sit there.
No, I'm I'm allowed to like takenotes, take notes and pass my
lawyer notes and so you were inthe room with her.
(29:23):
And her.
Yeah.
No, they did them separately.
Right, but you were stilllooking at her face to face.
Yeah, I'm in the room with bothof them.
It was tough.
Obviously, it was tough.
But I will say it wasn't asemotional as I thought it was
going to be.
Because I I was almost like sobusy tracking and disproving
(29:51):
what he was saying with throughevidence of texts.
Like I saved all of our textmessages for like a year through
cell phone logs, through cards,through social media.
Like I had all this evidencethat kind of disproved their
stories.
And so while he's recitingsomething, I'm able to jot it
(30:14):
down and like hand it to mylawyer.
So I'm I'm like working.
I'm working.
Yeah.
I'm not really like sittingthere listening, letting it like
absorb into me.
Now it has later, obviously.
And my lawyer came on fire.
She came on fire in thosedepots.
Melissa Davis, Buckhead FamilyLaw, amazing.
(30:35):
They gave me some softballs tostart with in my depot.
And my lawyer and I talked aboutthe strategy, and I'm like,
punch him in the face coming outof the gate.
Don't give him softballs oflike, where did you go to
college?
Right.
Like, what's your first job?
Like, don't give him thosesoftballs.
I don't care.
Punch him.
And so the first question out ofthe gate was when was the first
time you and her had sex?
(30:58):
Yeah.
He was like, okay.
Yeah.
We're getting ready to punchout.
Don't even buy me a drink.
And because that's like, yeah, Iwanted to know.
And I had friends come at me andbe like, Do you really want to
know these details?
I do.
Yes.
I do.
You know?
It was like cathartic.
Yeah.
Fuck if it wasn't the exact sametime we're in red light, green
(31:21):
light.
He's having sex with both of us.
Unprotected sex with both of us.
Hmm.
Yeah, my lawyer came on fire.
Um, I remember there wassomething around um another
company in Atlanta, another bigretailer in Atlanta was talking
to him about a job, and therewas like an NDA about it.
(31:43):
But you have to produce all thatstuff.
Like, if you're gonna leave yourcurrent role to go to a
different job, that's gonnaaffect your stock and what vests
and all those are maritalassets, except like you have to
disclose all of that.
And so my lawyer asked him aquestion about this other role.
He was like, Well, I can't tellyou.
He got kind of snippy, and hewas like, Well, I can't tell you
because of the NDA.
(32:04):
And she goes, Oh, but you cantell your girlfriend.
And it was just like mic drop.
And he just looked at her, I waslike, Yeah.
Um, so and then he went in andanswered the question.
And I just wanted to be like, Ican't on the playground be like,
oh, if she got you, she burnedyou.
Like she came on fire.
(32:26):
And then like the night beforeher deposition, my lawyer and I
are passing, we're texting backand forth.
Like she's getting on Facebooklooking at things.
I'm going through like my notes.
I'm just saying, do not havedon't have an affair ever, like
ever, but don't have an affairin Georgia because you will have
(32:48):
to, as the paramour, you willhave to produce so much stuff
about your life.
Like, you have to produce textsbetween you and my husband,
texts, but the group texts, likeyou have to produce so much
also.
Yeah, you can't delete anything.
(33:08):
Yes, just don't do it, it's notworth it.
Um, so she had to produce allthis stuff.
I had to go through it as partof depot prep.
It's just like I rememberreading their texts and the
words they were using, and youcould have literally overlaid
(33:30):
our texts on top of it.
Like, okay, baby, good morning,love, sure thing be, like the
same exact words of endearmentwere in both of ours.
Wow, yeah.
So that like that was reallyhard to read, obviously.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
And then she had to producepictures of them, and so like
(33:52):
looking at all that was tough,but in her depot, you can't say
anything, you know.
I'm not allowed to to sayanything, but being if I'm
scribbling notes and likepushing them to my lawyer in her
depot to hear her talk aboutstarting a life with someone at
(34:16):
the expense of mine.
Like your boyfriend is myhusband, right?
Yeah.
The last time he and I wereintimate would have been
December of 2022 when he came tomy Airbnb.
Well, I thought that was January18th.
No, no, no.
That's when he sent the text.
Oh, okay.
Yes, that's when he sent thetext.
Before that, in in December,yes, like you know, around the
(34:40):
holidays, I had the Airbnb inAtlanta and he came over and
stayed the night.
And I guess he had told herabout that, like the last time
we had sex.
And that came up in the depots,and I scribbled around like,
why?
And my lawyer was like, Whywould he tell you that if you
guys were like off or whatever?
(35:00):
And she was like, I think hejust wanted to start a
relationship on a foundation oftrust and honesty.
If you could hear the eye rollin my and my eyes roll back in
my head.
I was just and you can't say youcan't see it, say anything.
(35:23):
I wish I could have been like,uh, but like uh okay, you guys
were both married.
A foundation of trust andhonesty.
You got a real solid foundationthere.
Wow.
Yeah.
Wow.
Yeah.
So I mean, that's why the bookisn't again, it's not ha ha
(35:47):
funny, but looking back, thereare some pretty funny moments.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So having an outlet to sharethat kind of stuff, well, like
with you, with other friends,just to to be like, you see how
absurd this is, right?
Having that network of supportlike was everything to me.
(36:13):
Helped me get through it.
It and it's so important.
So your journal is all you'retalking about.
No, no, I'm saying like myjournal has all like my
feelings, but then being able totext you.
Text you, oh my gosh.
Just like how stupid andhilarious is this?
Yes.
Having those types of outlets ofother people to kind of be in it
(36:34):
with you is really helpful.
So we got through depots, andthen we had our second
mediation.
We did come to a settlementthere.
Uh, and it was either gonna bewe settle or we go to jury
trial.
Part of me wanted to go to jurytrial just to be a thorid in his
side.
But after some soul searching,it was like, that's not a reason
(36:58):
to go.
So we did kind of come to afinal settlement.
And I remember looking at thepiece of paper that had kind of
the over and above the 50, andlooking at that amount and just
thinking, this is not indicativeof the pain I have felt in the
(37:22):
last year and a half.
And I remember crying.
And my CPA is there, my lawyeris there.
I think they just kind of lookedat each other like, and I was
just like, I'm sorry, I haven'tcried in a really long time.
And I'm just thinking, like,this is not this is not fair.
Like this is there's basicallylike no consequence.
(37:44):
Like looking at like there'sbasically no consequence for
infidelity, thinking this isn'tfair and this isn't indicative
of the pain that I have felt.
Nope.
I think that's part of thelesson, and I know that's
something you know my lawyerwould coach me on is divorce
just gets you divorced.
It doesn't scratch any itch forlike justice, if if that makes
(38:08):
sense.
So then we were able to come toabout you know 85% of the way
there.
There was a few things that wedidn't come to an agreement on,
and so we finally settledeverything through arbitration,
where an arbitrate the mediatorbecame an arbitrator and just
made a final judgment on someoutstanding items.
(38:29):
And then it was over, done.
Yeah.
And that was so funny enough,funny enough, Labor Day weekend
2022.
I stepped on that landmine, thatinvisible landmine, and I got
the final divorce decree fromthe g from back from the judge
(38:51):
saying you were divorced.
I got that back Labor Dayweekend of 2024.
Wow.
Two years.
Of hell.
Of hell.
Just yeah, yeah.
So my my lawyer several timesshe was like, you can't win
divorce, Abby.
(39:12):
Which is very hard for me toaccept.
Well, competitive Abby.
Yeah, I have a hard timeaccepting you can't win
everything.
So but but it's later, after wehad settled, she was like, Abby,
you won your divorce.
(39:32):
If you think about where youwere starting and what you ended
up with, you won.
Meaning where it was startingwas if I rewind the clock, back
in one of our green light phaseswhen I was in Florida and he was
in Atlanta, I think it was likea homework assignment from his
(39:54):
therapist was what would Abbyneed to see from you going
forward?
What would you need to see fromAbby going forward?
And he kind of shared that withme.
So I had, and so we were gonnahave a conversation and talk
about it.
So I had done my homework withthings like better
communication, um, getting backinto our hobbies.
(40:14):
We did a FaceTime, and so I wentthrough my list and like um you
know, a focus on health andwellness and things like that.
And then it was his turn, and itwas kind of like, yeah, I agree
with all these points, but oh,by the way, I'm gonna send you
an Excel sheet.
And the Excel sheet is here'swhat you have earned in our
(40:40):
marriage.
If I go back to your startingsalary as a project manager at
Walmart, so he had created anExcel sheet of like the 10 years
we've been married and what mystarting salary was as a project
manager, bonus, stock, like, andthen I my my promotion to senior
(41:00):
manager and then promotion todirector, and then at NEVCO,
he's like, here's what you'veearned in the marriage.
It was basically trying to getme to agree to a post-nuptial
agreement, forcing me into apost-nuptial agreement, and was
like, you don't unless you agreeto this, you don't get me.
(41:21):
You don't get me unless youagree to this.
Because like the money was partof the the things I need to see
from Abby, uh, part of thehomework from the therapist.
It felt like an ambush.
Yeah.
I I at least had the wherewithalto be like, I'm not agreeing to
this.
And of course, it was like,well, if if money wasn't
(41:42):
everything to you, then youwould agree to it.
It's like, no, that wasn't thespirit of the exercise.
I literally just went through alist of other things.
I know of the things that make amarriage.
Right.
You know, these are the thingsthat that make a good marriage.
This, like, finances don't keepa marriage together.
And I'm not agreeing to this.
(42:03):
Like, no, that's not the spiritof of the conversation that we
were supposed to have.
Right.
So, all like, so that numberwas, you know, what Abby had
earned in in the 10 years of themarriage, that number was not
even a fraction of like what Iwalked away with.
So my Laura was like, again,where are you where he was
(42:24):
starting mentally and where youended up actually?
She was like, Abby, you won thedivorce.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Got it.
I feel better now.
That'd be great.
Uh, but like, still, that likeit's painful.
Yeah.
(42:45):
Even you can have all the moneyin the world, and it's still
painful.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (42:53):
Thanks for listening to Bitter or Better, where we
turn heartbreak into healing andsurvival into strength.
As Brene Brown says,vulnerability is the last thing
we want to show, but the firstthing we look for in others.
That's what this is all about.
Real people showing up, sharingtheir stories, and reminding the
rest of us that we're not alone.
(43:13):
If this episode resonated withyou, share it with someone who
might need to hear it too.
And remember, you have a choicebetter or better.
See you next time for more realstories, real people, and real
resilience.
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