February 5, 2026 • 46 mins
Heartbreak can flatten your plans and rewrite your identity in an instant. Abby opens up about the shock of betrayal, the weight of unfairness, and the paradox of missing someone who broke every boundary you trusted, then shows how small, stubborn choices stack into real resilience. We go deep on grief’s unpredictable waves, the “paper cut” triggers that sting out of nowhere, and the mental shift from revenge fantasies to a life that actually feels good.
From there, we get practical. Abby walks through five pillars of health: sleep, food, movement, stress management, and connection, and explains how each one becomes a lifeline when your nervous system is on high alert. Expect candid takes on why sleep leads, how to eat simply when emotions surge, why strength training beats stress-stacking cardio, and what real stress relief looks like beyond a streaming binge. We talk about the hidden pillar too: rebuilding connection, diversifying your support system, and finding the ROI of pain by investing in friendships that show up. You’ll also hear the “nobody cares” mindset that makes solo dinners and solo trips feel empowering instead of exposing.
Values take center stage as Abby names what crystallized: faith as a stabilizer, empathy as a new default, unconditional love as a practice, and advocacy as a non-negotiable. She shares how conflict aversion gave way to self-advocacy in mediation, why asking hard questions mattered, and how humor turned absurdity into creative fuel. For dating again, alignment beats checklists, think honesty, loyalty, empathy, playfulness, and shared faith. The surprise gift at the end of it all? Time and perspective, plus a clearer compass for a life that is happy and healthy on purpose.
If this story moves you, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs it, and leave a review to help others find these conversations. Your next step toward “better” starts now.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to Bitter or Better.
The real stories of divorce andresilience.
The podcast that gets real aboutthe messy middle of divorce and
what it takes to come outstronger on the other side.
I'm your host, Abby England,marketer, national board
certified health and wellnesscoach, and author of the
upcoming book, Bitter or Better.
And I've personally earned mydivorce Kevlar.
(00:23):
This podcast isn't legal advice.
It isn't tips and tricks anddon't forget and hacks and
how-tos.
There's plenty of other podcastsout there interviewing lawyers,
therapists, accountants, allsorts of divorce scientists.
This podcast is raw, realconversations with everyday
people who have jobs, kids,responsibilities, and
(00:45):
commitments, and yet they'veweathered the heartbreak,
rebuilt their lives, and foundunexpected strength along the
way.
Because while divorce can breakyou, it can also make you
better.
You are not alone.
Let's hear someone else's storyand see what resonates.
What were the biggest challengesor fears you had to overcome
going through this process?
(01:06):
I think our challenges or thethings that we struggle with
give us insight into what ourvalues are.
Because if something's likefeels really uh challenging,
it's a clue that, hey, thatthing might be really important.
So for me, one of the biggestchallenges was just how unfair
(01:31):
this whole thing was.
It's unfair that we moved toAtlanta for his job.
I've got no friends, I can't geta job because I have no network.
Right.
Like my life has been blown up.
Now I'm standing in like theashes of my life.
And where do I start?
(01:53):
So not only like that beingunfair, but then also the
divorce process being unfair andthat no, he had an affair, and
there's no consequences forthat.
So the whole unfairness, so thatwas a big challenge for me,
which tells me I've got valuesof fairness and justice almost.
(02:18):
Absolutely.
Reframing him in my mind was abig challenge.
He was the most loyal personthat I knew.
Uh, like he is the one that putvery clear boundaries in place
in our relationship early on,like when we were dating.
And that was new for me.
You know, kind of rules of likewhat's okay and what's not okay
(02:42):
when it comes to friendshipswith the opposite sex.
And that was new for me, but ithelped tremendously and it made
me trust him implicitly.
I felt so secure in a trustingrelationship because of those
boundaries.
And I think that's why whathappened was so devastating.
(03:09):
Because it's like the man that Idated and married back in
Arkansas is not the same personwho showed up in Atlanta.
His values, morals, boundariesall disintegrated.
These are two different people.
And I remember thinking, oh mygosh, if the most loyal person I
know is capable of having anaffair, what chance do I have
(03:35):
with like all the other guys outthere?
And it's like, wait a minute,Abby, that no, no.
Loyal people, he's not the mostloyal person you know.
Loyal people don't have affairs,don't cheat on their spouses,
don't lie, don't gaslight, don'tmanipulate.
Loyal people don't do that.
He's not loyal.
(03:55):
So I had to reframe him in mymind.
Another another obstacle is or achallenge.
It's called Bitter or Better.
And the idea of or thephilosophy of revenge kept
(04:19):
coming up.
And I really struggled with likejust kind of daydreaming about
different revenge fantasies tokind of, you know, going back to
that justice.
I wanted justice and fairness inthis.
The challenge was almost likewhen I would have these revenge
fantasies to almost likeredirect my thoughts to
(04:41):
something else.
Because it would, it's hard notto separate wanting him to be
unhappy as your own happiness.
And those are two differentseesaws, they're not the same
seesaw.
I eventually learned thatputting time, energy, money into
(05:06):
the things that make me happyand like give me purpose and
fulfill me has nothing to dowith seeing him unhappy and
regretting this decision.
And then I would say anotherchallenge, and it's something
that every podcast guest hassaid, is grief, loss,
(05:32):
loneliness, it's kind of allwrapped into one.
The grief of losing what youthought your life was gonna be
like for the next 10, 20, 30years, and poof, it's not that
anymore, right?
Yeah.
And the loneliness.
You're gonna be alone.
Like, and even if you have kids,I mean you still only get them
(05:55):
half the amount of time.
So there's gonna be a lot ofalone time.
Just know that it's coming, it'sinevitable, but it can be a
productive use of time as wellfor your own growth.
But that is a challenge, is theyou know, sleeping in a bed by
(06:16):
yourself, not having like anoutlet to share something cute
that the dog did.
Yeah, yeah.
It's it's lonely.
I can see how that could be likea double-edged sword.
Like in one one aspect, you'regrowing and you're learning who
you are at 38, right?
Like 39.
SPEAKER_01 (06:36):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (06:37):
Thank you.
You're welcome.
Who you are at 39, with youknow, who Abby is, not Abby and
you know, your your ex-spouse,but it's like who Abby is at 39
because she's changed, she is adifferent woman than she was 15
years ago when she was 20, youknow, yeah, in her 20s.
It could be really sweet, um,but it could be really hard.
Yeah.
(06:57):
Another challenge is that ofconflicting feelings.
Be gentle with yourself that twothings can be true at the same
time.
Two things that should feelmutually exclusive can both be
true at the same time.
Like I would be sad about himleaving, uh, feelings of
(07:19):
abandonment, I'm not goodenough, um, you know, our family
unit just being blown up.
I would be sad about that.
But but then immediately I wouldthink, well, he's a fucking
cheater.
Why are you sad about losing acheater?
Good riddance, let him go.
And so almost like reprimandingmyself for having the feelings
(07:44):
of being sad.
And yeah, sometimes missing him.
And so it felt uh almostfeelings of like, I don't know,
anti-feminism or something.
I don't know if I had the exactword for it.
Um, but it definitely felt likefeelings of being sad and then
(08:06):
guilty for being sad, likereprimanding myself when I
should be like, fuck you.
Like that should be the onlyfeeling that I should be
feeling.
You you can have a messycocktail of feelings, and they
can all be true, and they don'thave to be mutually exclusive.
(08:30):
It is grief.
Everything you've read and heardabout grief is a hundred percent
true.
It will hit you at random times,and something can unseemingly
trigger something in you.
You will cry at the gym, you'llcry in the shower, you'll cry at
(08:52):
your work-off site.
Or was that just me?
I don't know, but it is grief,and it is okay to have all the
feelings, and then there's lotsof like paper cuts along the
way.
You got your big challenges, butthere's lots of paper cuts and
(09:16):
like he changed his emailpicture to him and her.
unknown (09:21):
Oh, that's right.
SPEAKER_00 (09:22):
So, and we still had to email each other about things
for the divorce.
So I would see a picture of themevery time I had to email him.
Like, so that was a paper cut,and then anniversary.
I mean, I lapped two of them, Ithink.
Anniversaries are a paper cut,and so you just do something
(09:42):
else that day and kind of tellyourself it's just a day.
Yeah, but that's all it is.
Yeah, so there's there's gonnabe those paper cuts along the
way.
Yeah, yeah.
So you mentioned revengefantasies.
What kind of revenge fantasieswould you share?
I'm a little hesitant to sharebecause um have you seen the
movie Gone Girl?
Yes, yeah, with Ben Affleck andI think Rosamond Pike, where
(10:06):
they very similar story to mine.
Like he moves her to a town andhe has an affair, she finds out
about it, tries to plant herdeath on him.
You know, there's some slightdifferences in our stories.
But in the movie, they try topaint her as this like off the
rails crazy person for forfaking her own death and
(10:29):
planning it on him.
And I'm watching it and I'mlike, and like he deserved it.
He's a lying douche.
Like, what like, yeah, it's alittle far, but like I wasn't
like, oh my god, she's crazy.
Like, so I'm a little, I'm alittle nervous of coming off
(10:50):
like gone girlish, but maybeit's a good thing you kept those
to your talk to uh my lawyer andI had a few conversations.
Someone like you guys didn'thave a lot of fun.
Yeah.
One of the one of them was like,because they worked for the same
company, same public company,you know, just maybe the SEC
(11:14):
would receive an anonymousletter that's like, I'm a
shareholder of this company andI've got some pretty extreme
concerns about theirfraternization policy.
Seems odd that the head ofsupply chain and the head of
pricing, who are both married,are having an affair.
(11:34):
And doesn't there kind of needto be a Chinese wall between
these two?
Especially from a leadershipstandpoint.
Exactly.
From these two groups, teams ofpeople.
Yeah, yeah.
Because one can influence theother.
Yep.
So yeah.
SEC, maybe want to look maybeyou want to look into that.
I don't know.
(11:55):
My lawyer wouldn't let me dothat.
It's probably good advice.
I know part.
I know.
But like those types of likelike daydreaming where I would
have to be like, okay, I mean,like focus on something more
productive.
Yeah.
Like yeah, redirect yourthoughts.
So because that's not likeserving you in any way.
No.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(12:15):
But um, yeah.
Okay.
So you mentioned um earlier, youmentioned getting through it.
You wrote in your journal to getall your feelings out.
You also were able to text yourbrand group and get all of that
out.
What other tools did you useduring this process?
One of the best tools that youhave is leaning into the five
pillars of health (12:38):
sleep, food, movement, stress management, and
connections.
I will hold the mirror up andsay I wasn't doing these well,
especially when it was justespecially when some days are
(13:00):
about survival.
Looking back, I wish I wouldhave invested, I wish I in a
coach and gotten a coach, like ahealth coach, to help me through
that.
Being a health coach, like, yes,having another health coach by
my side, because some daysyou're just in survival and
doing whatever feels good kindof in the moment, because it
(13:22):
just sucks so bad.
But that's also why I'm sopassionate about wanting to help
people who are in that.
The book goes into these in moredetail, but real quick, sleep.
Sleep is the most importantpillar of health.
When you get shitty sleep, itimpacts everything for the rest
(13:43):
of the day.
Um, it impacts what foods youcrave, how your body uses the
glucose from those foods, if youhave the energy to do any sort
of movement.
I mean, we all know this, butreally sleep is the most
important pillar of health.
And then food.
80% of the time, try to eat realfood, whole, unprocessed, kind
(14:10):
of as closest to its form inmother nature as you can find.
Limiting sugar.
Sugar's gonna feel real good inthis time.
Sugar like wants to be there andcomfort you.
Limit sugar.
I'd also, I'm gonna lose somepeople here.
I know it, but I would becautious about alcohol.
(14:31):
It can get real easy to usealcohol as an excuse.
I've had a shitty day, break outthe wine, or let's celebrate.
You know, something goodhappened, let's say in the
divorce process, let'scelebrate, break out the
champagne, or hey, it's just aTuesday, break out the tequila.
Like there, there can be anumber of excuses to break out
(14:55):
alcohol, and I stayed away fromalcohol.
You probably count on both handsthe number of drinks I had in
that time span.
It's toxic.
I mean, let's call it what itis.
You don't want to use it as acrutch during this time, and and
you don't want to cement badhabits.
(15:17):
And so I would just be a littlecautious about alcohol.
The third is movement.
Our lives are so sedentary.
Um we sit, you know, on ourcommute to work, we sit at work,
we sit during lunch, we sit onthe way home from work, we sit
when we get home and you know,watch shows.
(15:38):
We are far too sedentary.
So I would say, especially forwomen, be intentional about
prioritizing movement.
And I would give extra emphasisto strength training.
I think guys kind of know and dostrength training.
I think it's underrepresented inthe female community and under
(16:02):
talked about how importantstrength training is.
You're already in a stressfultime, your nervous system is
already in fight or flight.
Don't go do more cardio, don'tgo do hours of cardio.
You're already stressed.
The nature of strength trainingis that it's not the same type
of stressor that cardio is.
(16:23):
So prioritize strike trainingduring this time.
Stress management.
This is kind of dealer's choicea little bit.
Um, do things that you knowrelax you and kind of take you
into neutral.
You know, I'm a big fan ofjournaling.
(16:44):
You never know, all thosefeelings might become a
bestseller.
But going for a walk afterdinner, I had a friend that
takes a bath every night.
It might take some trial andexperiment to figure out what
works for you.
Um, but Netflix is not stressmanagement.
(17:07):
That's distraction.
90 minutes zoning out everynight, that's not stress
management.
So know that there's adifference.
And we talked about alcohol.
Wine is also not stressmanagement.
And then the last pillar that Ithink doesn't get a lot of
(17:30):
attention, but it is just asimportant at the as the other
four, is connections andrelationships.
I personally felt this or thelack of this when I moved to
Atlanta.
I I'm a health coach.
I was doing those four things: food, sleep, movement, stress (17:45):
undefined
management.
I was doing those four things.
But I didn't have a socialoutlet.
I didn't have, I mean, I hadrelationships back home, but I
didn't have, you know, people inAtlanta, like someone to give me
a hug.
(18:06):
And only looking back and doingwork with my therapist, have we
identified and labeled that Ireally did go through a season
of depression.
Social connections andrelationships is so important.
It's just as important as theother four because you lose your
(18:27):
primary relationship.
And so I call it the ROI ofpain, the return on investment
of pain.
You lose your primaryrelationship and you then invest
time and energy into all theseother relationships.
And that's this is also a toolin helping you get through
(18:52):
what's going to be one of themost traumatic chapters of your
life.
And investing in thoserelationships, I promise, will
pay dividends.
People will show up for you.
You need people to share whenyou're having a bad day, when
you're having a good day, whensomething funny happens.
(19:14):
Like you need an outlet for allof those things.
Now, on the flip side of thequality and quantity of
relationships is being alone.
A tool that I would say isadopting a mindset of nobody
cares.
(19:34):
Um, I did a lot of things alone.
And I think you'll hear that inmost episodes, is that that that
kind of the being alone is acommon thread brought up in in
most people's interviews.
And there's no likenon-depressing way to say that.
It's just it's math.
(19:56):
You were two, now you're one,you're alone, a lot.
So get comfortable and use it aslike a confidence building
exercise to do things alone.
I went to dinner alone, Itraveled alone, movies alone,
comedy shows alone, sportingevents alone.
(20:18):
And of course, I feltuncomfortable and anxious about
it and like nervous, like, whatare people thinking?
But I read something onInstagram that was so freeing.
It was like, nobody cares.
Nobody is thinking, oh, look atthat poor loser of a woman
(20:39):
sitting at the bar at therestaurant by herself.
Nobody's watching you.
We are all so self-absorbed inour own lives.
Nobody cares.
And it so adopt that nobodycares mindset.
It is quite freeing.
Affirmations and post-it notesare a really powerful yet simple
(21:02):
tool.
Uh, the phrase bitter or betterunearthed itself during this
time.
And I took a sheet of paper anddrew a line down the middle and
wrote bitter or better withsynonymous adjectives
underneath.
I told myself every day, Abby,there's one of two ways you can
come out of this (21:21):
bitter or better, fit or fat, strong or
weak, haphazard or intentional.
You know, and and just the thelist kind of continued.
And you get to choose.
And I taped that onto my, liketo the right of my bathroom
mirror, so that would look at meevery single day and remind me I
(21:41):
have a choice.
Um, but probably my favoriteaffirmation is the phrase the
best revenge is a happy, healthylife.
And so that's what I put myenergy towards.
Lastly was faith.
Um, for me, faith is a majortool.
(22:05):
I don't know how people gothrough this without some sort
of sense of a higher purpose, ahigher power, that this pain
isn't for nothing, that there'sa plan beyond this.
I prayed every single day,multiple times a day, for God to
(22:29):
change me, for God to change hisheart.
You know, that was before I knewabout the affair.
After I found out about theaffair, the prayers changed to
like me finding peace,acceptance, and forgiveness.
And that one I mentioned lastbecause it's been the toughest.
(22:50):
I definitely haven't like fullyforgiven him.
I've I've moved a notch inforgiving her.
Because she only knows what he'stold her.
Got it.
In my mind, she knew all thefacts that I know.
Right.
Like that we moved to Atlantaand we were happy.
(23:12):
Right.
We didn't have problems inArkansas.
We were building a housetogether.
He's married.
I mean, pretty honest one.
You know, like she knew allthese things, but she only knows
what he was telling her.
And if he was telling her someother narrative, then she
(23:37):
wouldn't know that my life isdestroyed and the pain that I
went through.
Yeah.
I think it's like kind of aspectrum also.
In the book, I outline that onone, like on the left-hand side
is acceptance and on the righthand side is forgiveness.
(24:00):
And it's like a like it's astair step from acceptance to
forgiveness.
She's kind of moved a notch inthat in that spectrum.
Um, he's still way over herethough.
Like, do I accept that he is alying asshole douchebag?
Yeah, I can accept that.
Yeah, easy to accept that.
(24:20):
Got it.
Can I accept that he has troublecommunicating his needs and
values?
Clearly.
I if you don't say things foryears and years and years and
there's a blow-up, I can acceptthat you can't communicate.
Can I accept that he's a flawedhuman being?
(24:45):
It's a little harder, but yeah,I can accept that he's flawed.
And so it kind of like moves itsway towards forgiveness.
I haven't quite like crossed thechasm into forgiveness yet,
though.
So And that's why I asked thequestion of people on the
podcast because I'm it's likeself-serving.
Like I want to know, no, how didyou forgive?
(25:07):
And everybody says the samething that forgiveness is more
for you than it is for the otherperson.
It's like that other person putyou in chains and you're
deciding to still live in thosechains or to break them.
Yeah.
unknown (25:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (25:20):
Um, okay, so there's this like viral trend going
around where you, as this likemore mature, experienced person,
take your younger self out tocoffee.
Oh.
And you talk to them about, youknow, just like what their life
is going to be like, and youkind of just like give them
encouragement.
Yeah.
So throughout this process,there were probably many low
points.
(25:40):
I want you to pick the lowestpoint.
Yeah.
And I want you to go back rightnow, what you know at the end of
this process, go back to thatlowest point in the process.
What would you tell yourself?
Okay, I have a I have like arevenge fantasy again.
unknown (25:53):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (25:54):
So we're still over here in the hours.
And it's when we're when we'reat the apartment, the night of
the outburst.
Uh-huh.
See you next Tuesday.
Yep.
Outburst.
I I'm kind of watching ithappen, and Abby's on the couch
(26:14):
freezing.
Yeah.
And it's almost like this newAbby comes in, like, tag teams
in, and she and she like, andshe like touches Abby.
She's like, hey, you know what?
Why don't you go to the gym?
Yeah.
Why don't you get grab a ToboChico?
Why don't you go for a walk orgo to the gym?
I got it from here.
(26:35):
And timid, frozen Abby gets upand leaves.
And new Abby comes in.
And all puffed up.
And she's like, guess what?
I'm not going after half.
Because I'm getting more thanhalf.
But she just kind of takes overfrom there.
(26:56):
I would tell the lowest Abby,you're gonna come out.
You do not believe me.
Like, but trust me, you're gonnacome out of this stronger, more
resilient, with deeperfriendships, more connections,
more confidence, and more likefivefold more confidence than
(27:22):
you can imagine.
It sucks right now, but look atme, girl.
Yeah.
Like you're gonna be okay, andyou're gonna be better than what
you were.
Yeah.
That's great.
That's great.
Okay, just rattled off likeconfidence.
You know, you have moreconfidence now.
(27:42):
Um what are some of thestrengths that you leaned into
during those two years?
You need different strengths atdifferent times.
For me, I had almost like threetracks going on.
Track one was getting throughthe divorce itself.
(28:04):
Yep.
That's the first track.
Track two is uh establishing andcultivating a life in Atlanta
because I want to live there.
I didn't want to like retreatback to Bentonville or St.
Louis.
Atlanta's my town.
You fucking move.
Yeah.
(28:24):
And the third track of of thatgot lesser energy, but it is
still there, is like datingagain.
So the first track of justgetting through the divorce, I
mean, I do think I have astrength of just getting shit
done.
Yes.
Professionally, personally, Ican just get shit done.
(28:46):
And that takes grit, resilience,determination, discipline,
sacrifice, kind of those obviouswarrior-like strengths.
I I will say what's new thoughis the strength of like fighting
back.
I'm I'm I'm super conflictaverse.
(29:10):
Yeah.
Super conflict averse.
But I wasn't gonna, I wasn'tgonna settle for less than what
I was worth.
And so I was fighting back, notonly for me, but I also felt
like a purpose of fighting backfor other people who had been
(29:34):
put in a box or walked oneggshells in their relationship
because their spouse had angertemper issues.
So, like, it wasn't just for me,it was for other people also.
And like, oh, you want tounderestimate me, you want to
(29:54):
undervalue me, come at me.
If you want corporate Barbie,I'll be corporate Barbie.
And she likes to negotiate,she's not conflict averse.
Let's go.
So, like puffing up and fightingback was a new strength that I
leaned into.
I do think it takes confidenceand courage to that kind of
spans across all three.
Yeah, it takes confidence andcourage when you're getting
(30:17):
through it to truly trustyourself.
A lot of people were coming atme with like, just get it done
as fast as you can, settle, getout of this thing.
And it all came from a place oflove and wanting, you know, me
to be in this next chapter.
But I also didn't want tosacrifice my financial position
(30:41):
just to get it done.
Right.
So listening to yourself andeven the depositions, people
were like, do you really want tosit through that and hear all
those details?
You know what?
It's gonna be tough, but yeah, Iwant to because I want to know
what the fuck happened becausemy life blew up and I don't
really know why or what thetimeline was or what the hell
(31:03):
happened.
I want to know.
Yeah, yeah.
So it's almost like lettingfeedback kind of bounce off you
a little bit and truly trustingyourself and having the courage
to kind of go against what otherpeople are saying a little bit,
yeah, and and being decisive inwhat you want.
(31:26):
Allowing others to help you is abig one.
Yep.
That is a brand new one for me.
It's why I left Sam's Club to goto NEVCO because I didn't know
how to ask for help.
So this being able to let peoplehelp you, like in the meeting
I'm in the mediation, the firstmediation, I had a therapy
appointment like the day prior,and my therapist was like, tell
(31:48):
your lawyer how you're feeling.
And it's her job to help you.
And so I remember looking at thebalance sheet and it's sloppy,
and they're missing things, andjust feeling like confused and
inadequate.
And I look at my lawyer and I'mlike, I just feel rushed.
She goes, Then we don't settletoday.
You can go get a 50-50 deal anyday of the week.
We don't settle.
(32:09):
And so being vulnerable enoughto kind of say what you're
feeling out loud and lettingpeople help you and trusting
their help.
And then I'd say the last one ishumor, being able to laugh at
things.
Maybe I wasn't always laughinglike in the moment, but stepping
(32:31):
away and being able to see maybethe the absurdity or the
ridiculousness of things hasreally helped tremendously.
And I got the opportunity to dostand-up comedy.
Which was so cool.
You got so much material goingthrough a divorce.
I have so much material.
(32:52):
So and dating again.
So much material.
So I would say, yeah, thosethose are the strengths that
that I leaned into.
Each person has to lean into thestrengths that that they know
has served them in the past ingetting through something like
this.
Yeah.
Okay, so you talked aboutstrengths and then the
(33:13):
challenges that you had toovercome.
Within this process, what corevalues crystallize for you at
the end in this?
Yeah.
Like I mentioned, your what youfind challenging and your core
values, I think, are kind oflike opposite sides of the same
(33:34):
coin.
They can the your what you findchallenging will give you
insight into what's reallyimportant to you.
Sorry, your values are whatdrive your feelings, your
actions, your decisions.
Um, so first, like faith, likethat became crystal clear.
I prayed multiple times a day.
(33:58):
And at first the prayer was, youknow, when I thought it was my
fault, when I cared about allthat guilt, the prayer was
change me.
And then like change him, changehis heart.
And then after I found out aboutthe affair, it the prayer
changed to like forgiveness,being able to forgive them,
(34:20):
which I'm still working on.
I'm not saying I pray forforgiveness every day, but you
know, that's kind of the themeof prayer after that point.
But yeah, the faith.
Like life will punch you in theface.
May not be this, it might besomething else.
(34:41):
A parent going throughdepression, a sibling lost to
suicide or something.
God forbid.
But life will punch you, andyour faith is what's gonna get
you through it.
But then also that kind ofbecomes like a non-negotiable
for the next partner that you'relooking for as well, someone who
(35:03):
mirrors, who understands it's usagainst this thing, not us
against each other.
Another value that I think wascultivated and goes back to the
strength of fighting back wasadvocating for myself.
Obviously.
The stories that I shared aboutthe trapdoors in the past, I
(35:25):
wasn't advocating for myself.
I was shrinking and justfreezing, not don't want things
to escalate beyond where theyare, you know, and then and then
never coming back to them andbeing like, we need to figure
this out.
Right.
Because I'm not doing thatagain.
That is a promise that I madefor myself is I will never be
(35:49):
scared in my own home again.
No one's gonna advocate for youin this process.
You have to do it for yourself.
Absolutely.
You have to drive your divorce,and only you know what you're
willing to kind of like bend andgive on.
Right.
Another core value is I think Ibecame way more empathetic and
(36:17):
non-judgmental of people.
I was probably judgmentalbefore.
And I don't know if you wouldhave known it, but I would have
had judgments on who getsdivorced, who gets cheated on,
who's unemployed, all thosethings that happen to me.
Yep.
So maybe I had to go throughthis, but I've I've I have a
(36:37):
whole new level of empathy forpeople, and that I've never
walked a day in your shoes.
And I I think that's a commonthread with most of my podcast
guests is empathy for otherpeople really moves to empathy
for yourself and for othersreally kind of recalibrates
(36:58):
going through this process.
That's what this whole processdoes, actually.
It recalibrates what might havebeen a value, but brings it to
the surface or brings it to thetop five.
Um, because before uh itprobably would have been like
(37:19):
drive, ambitiousness, right,achievement.
Um, it would have been thosethings.
Now it's more about likeconnections and relationships
and being a good human.
Yeah.
And that kind of leads me to thelast value of like unconditional
(37:42):
love.
I love you as long as you kindof check these boxes, kind of
stay within these.
If you fall outside of these,God forbid you have a midlife
(38:04):
change in passion.
Right.
Uh, or that you grow from theperson you were 15 years ago
when we want to change yourhabits that aren't serving you,
right?
Or you don't wear a song to bed,right?
Or you don't wear makeup aroundthe house.
Yeah.
I love you as long as you kindof keep to this checklist
unconditional love is acceptingand loving someone for who they
(38:27):
are, who they're not, andallowing them to grow.
So you talked about a futurepartner.
So what are your non-negotiableswhenever you look at dating in
the future?
I have found it hard when I'mdoing like values work in
therapy, which I highlyrecommend people do.
(38:48):
It's kind of hard for the valuesto not become the checklist for
the next person.
But just remember that they'reyour values.
Like what's important to you.
Other people can have othervalues, but I do think you want
them to be somewhat aligned.
They don't have to be exactlyone for one and two for two and
three for three.
(39:08):
But I think the top seven, eightvalues probably need to be
pretty similar to each other.
Yeah.
Yeah.
For there to be alignment, Iwould say, in the relationship.
Yeah.
So opposites attract, but notreally.
But it yeah.
(39:28):
Uh yeah.
So those non-negotiables are alot of the values that I have
that I'm looking for in apartner.
Empathy, honesty, loyalty.
Actually, playfulness and humorhave come up to the list that I
probably wouldn't have put onthe list.
(39:49):
Um, anybody knows my ex?
No, those are not values orcharacteristics.
No, but humor and playfulnesshave definitely moved up.
Yeah, you need that.
Okay, so I remember you comingback one night from dinner, um,
having dinner with a friend herein Arkansas.
She said, um, he was black andwhite and you were confetti.
(40:11):
And if anyone knows you two,that is the perfect visual for
the two of you.
So I love that in your futurepartner, playfulness and humor
is like up there because that iswho you are.
Like you are outgoing,confident, fun, you know, just
so different than than your ex.
(40:31):
That this is, I think you're onlike the best journey forward.
Thank you.
Yeah.
All right.
So everything said and done.
You've gone through thisprocess.
You finalized your divorce in2023.
2024.
2024.
Excuse me.
Yeah.
Yes, two years.
It was literally only last year,which feels crazy.
(40:53):
Um, what did your divorce bringyou?
I struggle with this one alittle bit because a friend who
also was divorced said to meonce, it gives you a second
chance at life.
And I don't disagree with him,but I also struggle with that
(41:14):
answer because I wasn't lookingfor this.
I wasn't looking for a secondchance.
I didn't know.
I I didn't know we were unhappy.
Again, like blindsided.
Run pulled out from under me.
No idea.
But I do think he's right inthat I do get a second chance
with a whole new gift ofperspective and a whole new
(41:40):
respect for a relationship.
Like, he has watched my stories,my Instagram stories while we
were going through it, and evenafter, like after the divorce,
he's watched them.
And a light bulb came on, and Iwas like, he doesn't respect any
(42:00):
relationship that he's in.
Right.
Like, I would not be if I'm hisyou know new fiance, I would not
be okay with you watching yourex-wife's stories.
Like, what?
I I struggle with that secondchance perspective, but it's not
not true.
The other big thing he gave meback was time.
(42:23):
Like meaning when so when I wastelling people about what like
what happened, I'd go into thisspiel of like his six-point plan
of like leaving Sam's Club andgo to Navco and then health
coach, and then all like there'sno like succinct way to explain
what happened.
And now, like when people ask,oh, what what happened?
(42:43):
Oh, he had an affair.
Done.
Three words.
Yep, done.
Okay, he gave me all this timeback.
Yes.
Um it did this process pushesyou into a process of deep
self-examination.
Like you are going to turn overrocks and go into deep dark
(43:08):
corners of yourself that you'renot proud of, right?
That you yourself judge yourselffor.
But it also gives you so muchinsight into how to be gentle
with yourself.
Yeah.
Because if you if you can begentle with yourself, I think
you can be more gentle withothers.
It goes back to that empathy.
(43:29):
Um, it also gave me much deeperfriendships and relationships
with with friends and family.
Sorry.
Like more friendships, morequantity of friendships, more
quality of friendships.
I call it the ROI of pain.
Yeah.
Um there's this one relationshipthat you put all your time and
money and energy into that nowthere's now I've got so many
(43:56):
more fruitful relationshipsbecause of this.
Because of the investments, kindof the deposits I've made in all
these other relationships in mylife.
It's kind of learning that oneperson can't be your everything.
Yeah.
They can't be your source ofhappiness.
Like one person isn't yourspouse and your accountability
(44:18):
partner and your fitness coachand your uh career mentor and
your therapist.
Like they can't, and your sourceof happiness.
That's a lot we put on onerelationship.
I think it gave me theopportunity to have a platform
and a message and a purpose.
(44:42):
I mean, I told myself every day,I literally have in my bathroom
like a bigger post-it with aline down the middle that says
bitter on one side, better onthe other, and with like
synonyms on each one.
And I look at it every day, andit's a choice.
Some days you're gonna choosebitter, like those revenge
(45:05):
fantasies, and are really gonnalike sound pretty good, pretty
compelling.
And you're gonna call yourlawyer and you're gonna say, Can
I do this?
And she's gonna be like, No.
And you're gonna be like, fine,okay.
Okay, fine.
You're boring.
I don't just kill me.
Abby, thank you for sharing yourstory.
(45:25):
Thank you.
We are incredible.
And I'm so happy to be able todo this with you and to have
walked through the hardest timeswith you by your side.
Yeah.
We walked through it together.
We did.
We've been through hell and backtogether.
Both of us, yeah.
Yeah.
At the same time almost.
So yeah.
Yes.
(45:45):
But we chose better.
We chose better.
That's right.
I five.
Because we don't hug.
No, we don't hug huggers.
We're not hugs.
We don't do hugs.
Okay.
Well, thank you for interviewingme and um investing all this
time as well.
Yeah.
Okay.
Bye.
Thanks for listening to Bitteror Better, where we turn
(46:06):
heartbreak into healing andsurvival into strength.
As Brene Brown says,vulnerability is the last thing
we want to show, but the firstthing we look for in others.
That's what this is all about.
Real people showing up, sharingtheir stories, and reminding the
rest of us that we're not alone.
If this episode resonated withyou, share it with someone who
(46:26):
might need to hear it too.
And remember, you have a choicebetter or better.
See you next time for more realstories, real people, and real
resilience.
Welcome to Bitter or Better.
The real stories of divorce andresilience.
The podcast that gets real aboutthe messy middle of divorce and
what it takes to come outstronger on the other side.
I'm your host, Abby England,marketer, national board
certified health and wellnesscoach, and author of the
upcoming book, Bitter or Better.
And I've personally earned mydivorce Kevlar.
(00:23):
This podcast isn't legal advice.
It isn't tips and tricks anddon't forget and hacks and
how-tos.
There's plenty of other podcastsout there interviewing lawyers,
therapists, accountants, allsorts of divorce scientists.
This podcast is raw, realconversations with everyday
people who have jobs, kids,responsibilities, and
(00:45):
commitments, and yet they'veweathered the heartbreak,
rebuilt their lives, and foundunexpected strength along the
way.
Because while divorce can breakyou, it can also make you
better.
You are not alone.
Let's hear someone else's storyand see what resonates.
What were the biggest challengesor fears you had to overcome
going through this process?
(01:06):
I think our challenges or thethings that we struggle with
give us insight into what ourvalues are.
Because if something's likefeels really uh challenging,
it's a clue that, hey, thatthing might be really important.
So for me, one of the biggestchallenges was just how unfair
(01:31):
this whole thing was.
It's unfair that we moved toAtlanta for his job.
I've got no friends, I can't geta job because I have no network.
Right.
Like my life has been blown up.
Now I'm standing in like theashes of my life.
And where do I start?
(01:53):
So not only like that beingunfair, but then also the
divorce process being unfair andthat no, he had an affair, and
there's no consequences forthat.
So the whole unfairness, so thatwas a big challenge for me,
which tells me I've got valuesof fairness and justice almost.
(02:18):
Absolutely.
Reframing him in my mind was abig challenge.
He was the most loyal personthat I knew.
Uh, like he is the one that putvery clear boundaries in place
in our relationship early on,like when we were dating.
And that was new for me.
You know, kind of rules of likewhat's okay and what's not okay
(02:42):
when it comes to friendshipswith the opposite sex.
And that was new for me, but ithelped tremendously and it made
me trust him implicitly.
I felt so secure in a trustingrelationship because of those
boundaries.
And I think that's why whathappened was so devastating.
(03:09):
Because it's like the man that Idated and married back in
Arkansas is not the same personwho showed up in Atlanta.
His values, morals, boundariesall disintegrated.
These are two different people.
And I remember thinking, oh mygosh, if the most loyal person I
know is capable of having anaffair, what chance do I have
(03:35):
with like all the other guys outthere?
And it's like, wait a minute,Abby, that no, no.
Loyal people, he's not the mostloyal person you know.
Loyal people don't have affairs,don't cheat on their spouses,
don't lie, don't gaslight, don'tmanipulate.
Loyal people don't do that.
He's not loyal.
(03:55):
So I had to reframe him in mymind.
Another another obstacle is or achallenge.
It's called Bitter or Better.
And the idea of or thephilosophy of revenge kept
(04:19):
coming up.
And I really struggled with likejust kind of daydreaming about
different revenge fantasies tokind of, you know, going back to
that justice.
I wanted justice and fairness inthis.
The challenge was almost likewhen I would have these revenge
fantasies to almost likeredirect my thoughts to
(04:41):
something else.
Because it would, it's hard notto separate wanting him to be
unhappy as your own happiness.
And those are two differentseesaws, they're not the same
seesaw.
I eventually learned thatputting time, energy, money into
(05:06):
the things that make me happyand like give me purpose and
fulfill me has nothing to dowith seeing him unhappy and
regretting this decision.
And then I would say anotherchallenge, and it's something
that every podcast guest hassaid, is grief, loss,
(05:32):
loneliness, it's kind of allwrapped into one.
The grief of losing what youthought your life was gonna be
like for the next 10, 20, 30years, and poof, it's not that
anymore, right?
Yeah.
And the loneliness.
You're gonna be alone.
Like, and even if you have kids,I mean you still only get them
(05:55):
half the amount of time.
So there's gonna be a lot ofalone time.
Just know that it's coming, it'sinevitable, but it can be a
productive use of time as wellfor your own growth.
But that is a challenge, is theyou know, sleeping in a bed by
(06:16):
yourself, not having like anoutlet to share something cute
that the dog did.
Yeah, yeah.
It's it's lonely.
I can see how that could be likea double-edged sword.
Like in one one aspect, you'regrowing and you're learning who
you are at 38, right?
Like 39.
SPEAKER_01 (06:36):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (06:37):
Thank you.
You're welcome.
Who you are at 39, with youknow, who Abby is, not Abby and
you know, your your ex-spouse,but it's like who Abby is at 39
because she's changed, she is adifferent woman than she was 15
years ago when she was 20, youknow, yeah, in her 20s.
It could be really sweet, um,but it could be really hard.
Yeah.
(06:57):
Another challenge is that ofconflicting feelings.
Be gentle with yourself that twothings can be true at the same
time.
Two things that should feelmutually exclusive can both be
true at the same time.
Like I would be sad about himleaving, uh, feelings of
(07:19):
abandonment, I'm not goodenough, um, you know, our family
unit just being blown up.
I would be sad about that.
But but then immediately I wouldthink, well, he's a fucking
cheater.
Why are you sad about losing acheater?
Good riddance, let him go.
And so almost like reprimandingmyself for having the feelings
(07:44):
of being sad.
And yeah, sometimes missing him.
And so it felt uh almostfeelings of like, I don't know,
anti-feminism or something.
I don't know if I had the exactword for it.
Um, but it definitely felt likefeelings of being sad and then
(08:06):
guilty for being sad, likereprimanding myself when I
should be like, fuck you.
Like that should be the onlyfeeling that I should be
feeling.
You you can have a messycocktail of feelings, and they
can all be true, and they don'thave to be mutually exclusive.
(08:30):
It is grief.
Everything you've read and heardabout grief is a hundred percent
true.
It will hit you at random times,and something can unseemingly
trigger something in you.
You will cry at the gym, you'llcry in the shower, you'll cry at
(08:52):
your work-off site.
Or was that just me?
I don't know, but it is grief,and it is okay to have all the
feelings, and then there's lotsof like paper cuts along the
way.
You got your big challenges, butthere's lots of paper cuts and
(09:16):
like he changed his emailpicture to him and her.
unknown (09:21):
Oh, that's right.
SPEAKER_00 (09:22):
So, and we still had to email each other about things
for the divorce.
So I would see a picture of themevery time I had to email him.
Like, so that was a paper cut,and then anniversary.
I mean, I lapped two of them, Ithink.
Anniversaries are a paper cut,and so you just do something
(09:42):
else that day and kind of tellyourself it's just a day.
Yeah, but that's all it is.
Yeah, so there's there's gonnabe those paper cuts along the
way.
Yeah, yeah.
So you mentioned revengefantasies.
What kind of revenge fantasieswould you share?
I'm a little hesitant to sharebecause um have you seen the
movie Gone Girl?
Yes, yeah, with Ben Affleck andI think Rosamond Pike, where
(10:06):
they very similar story to mine.
Like he moves her to a town andhe has an affair, she finds out
about it, tries to plant herdeath on him.
You know, there's some slightdifferences in our stories.
But in the movie, they try topaint her as this like off the
rails crazy person for forfaking her own death and
(10:29):
planning it on him.
And I'm watching it and I'mlike, and like he deserved it.
He's a lying douche.
Like, what like, yeah, it's alittle far, but like I wasn't
like, oh my god, she's crazy.
Like, so I'm a little, I'm alittle nervous of coming off
(10:50):
like gone girlish, but maybeit's a good thing you kept those
to your talk to uh my lawyer andI had a few conversations.
Someone like you guys didn'thave a lot of fun.
Yeah.
One of the one of them was like,because they worked for the same
company, same public company,you know, just maybe the SEC
(11:14):
would receive an anonymousletter that's like, I'm a
shareholder of this company andI've got some pretty extreme
concerns about theirfraternization policy.
Seems odd that the head ofsupply chain and the head of
pricing, who are both married,are having an affair.
(11:34):
And doesn't there kind of needto be a Chinese wall between
these two?
Especially from a leadershipstandpoint.
Exactly.
From these two groups, teams ofpeople.
Yeah, yeah.
Because one can influence theother.
Yep.
So yeah.
SEC, maybe want to look maybeyou want to look into that.
I don't know.
(11:55):
My lawyer wouldn't let me dothat.
It's probably good advice.
I know part.
I know.
But like those types of likelike daydreaming where I would
have to be like, okay, I mean,like focus on something more
productive.
Yeah.
Like yeah, redirect yourthoughts.
So because that's not likeserving you in any way.
No.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(12:15):
But um, yeah.
Okay.
So you mentioned um earlier, youmentioned getting through it.
You wrote in your journal to getall your feelings out.
You also were able to text yourbrand group and get all of that
out.
What other tools did you useduring this process?
One of the best tools that youhave is leaning into the five
pillars of health (12:38):
sleep, food, movement, stress management, and
connections.
I will hold the mirror up andsay I wasn't doing these well,
especially when it was justespecially when some days are
(13:00):
about survival.
Looking back, I wish I wouldhave invested, I wish I in a
coach and gotten a coach, like ahealth coach, to help me through
that.
Being a health coach, like, yes,having another health coach by
my side, because some daysyou're just in survival and
doing whatever feels good kindof in the moment, because it
(13:22):
just sucks so bad.
But that's also why I'm sopassionate about wanting to help
people who are in that.
The book goes into these in moredetail, but real quick, sleep.
Sleep is the most importantpillar of health.
When you get shitty sleep, itimpacts everything for the rest
(13:43):
of the day.
Um, it impacts what foods youcrave, how your body uses the
glucose from those foods, if youhave the energy to do any sort
of movement.
I mean, we all know this, butreally sleep is the most
important pillar of health.
And then food.
80% of the time, try to eat realfood, whole, unprocessed, kind
(14:10):
of as closest to its form inmother nature as you can find.
Limiting sugar.
Sugar's gonna feel real good inthis time.
Sugar like wants to be there andcomfort you.
Limit sugar.
I'd also, I'm gonna lose somepeople here.
I know it, but I would becautious about alcohol.
(14:31):
It can get real easy to usealcohol as an excuse.
I've had a shitty day, break outthe wine, or let's celebrate.
You know, something goodhappened, let's say in the
divorce process, let'scelebrate, break out the
champagne, or hey, it's just aTuesday, break out the tequila.
Like there, there can be anumber of excuses to break out
(14:55):
alcohol, and I stayed away fromalcohol.
You probably count on both handsthe number of drinks I had in
that time span.
It's toxic.
I mean, let's call it what itis.
You don't want to use it as acrutch during this time, and and
you don't want to cement badhabits.
(15:17):
And so I would just be a littlecautious about alcohol.
The third is movement.
Our lives are so sedentary.
Um we sit, you know, on ourcommute to work, we sit at work,
we sit during lunch, we sit onthe way home from work, we sit
when we get home and you know,watch shows.
(15:38):
We are far too sedentary.
So I would say, especially forwomen, be intentional about
prioritizing movement.
And I would give extra emphasisto strength training.
I think guys kind of know and dostrength training.
I think it's underrepresented inthe female community and under
(16:02):
talked about how importantstrength training is.
You're already in a stressfultime, your nervous system is
already in fight or flight.
Don't go do more cardio, don'tgo do hours of cardio.
You're already stressed.
The nature of strength trainingis that it's not the same type
of stressor that cardio is.
(16:23):
So prioritize strike trainingduring this time.
Stress management.
This is kind of dealer's choicea little bit.
Um, do things that you knowrelax you and kind of take you
into neutral.
You know, I'm a big fan ofjournaling.
(16:44):
You never know, all thosefeelings might become a
bestseller.
But going for a walk afterdinner, I had a friend that
takes a bath every night.
It might take some trial andexperiment to figure out what
works for you.
Um, but Netflix is not stressmanagement.
(17:07):
That's distraction.
90 minutes zoning out everynight, that's not stress
management.
So know that there's adifference.
And we talked about alcohol.
Wine is also not stressmanagement.
And then the last pillar that Ithink doesn't get a lot of
(17:30):
attention, but it is just asimportant at the as the other
four, is connections andrelationships.
I personally felt this or thelack of this when I moved to
Atlanta.
I I'm a health coach.
I was doing those four things: food, sleep, movement, stress (17:45):
undefined
management.
I was doing those four things.
But I didn't have a socialoutlet.
I didn't have, I mean, I hadrelationships back home, but I
didn't have, you know, people inAtlanta, like someone to give me
a hug.
(18:06):
And only looking back and doingwork with my therapist, have we
identified and labeled that Ireally did go through a season
of depression.
Social connections andrelationships is so important.
It's just as important as theother four because you lose your
(18:27):
primary relationship.
And so I call it the ROI ofpain, the return on investment
of pain.
You lose your primaryrelationship and you then invest
time and energy into all theseother relationships.
And that's this is also a toolin helping you get through
(18:52):
what's going to be one of themost traumatic chapters of your
life.
And investing in thoserelationships, I promise, will
pay dividends.
People will show up for you.
You need people to share whenyou're having a bad day, when
you're having a good day, whensomething funny happens.
(19:14):
Like you need an outlet for allof those things.
Now, on the flip side of thequality and quantity of
relationships is being alone.
A tool that I would say isadopting a mindset of nobody
cares.
(19:34):
Um, I did a lot of things alone.
And I think you'll hear that inmost episodes, is that that that
kind of the being alone is acommon thread brought up in in
most people's interviews.
And there's no likenon-depressing way to say that.
It's just it's math.
(19:56):
You were two, now you're one,you're alone, a lot.
So get comfortable and use it aslike a confidence building
exercise to do things alone.
I went to dinner alone, Itraveled alone, movies alone,
comedy shows alone, sportingevents alone.
(20:18):
And of course, I feltuncomfortable and anxious about
it and like nervous, like, whatare people thinking?
But I read something onInstagram that was so freeing.
It was like, nobody cares.
Nobody is thinking, oh, look atthat poor loser of a woman
(20:39):
sitting at the bar at therestaurant by herself.
Nobody's watching you.
We are all so self-absorbed inour own lives.
Nobody cares.
And it so adopt that nobodycares mindset.
It is quite freeing.
Affirmations and post-it notesare a really powerful yet simple
(21:02):
tool.
Uh, the phrase bitter or betterunearthed itself during this
time.
And I took a sheet of paper anddrew a line down the middle and
wrote bitter or better withsynonymous adjectives
underneath.
I told myself every day, Abby,there's one of two ways you can
come out of this (21:21):
bitter or better, fit or fat, strong or
weak, haphazard or intentional.
You know, and and just the thelist kind of continued.
And you get to choose.
And I taped that onto my, liketo the right of my bathroom
mirror, so that would look at meevery single day and remind me I
(21:41):
have a choice.
Um, but probably my favoriteaffirmation is the phrase the
best revenge is a happy, healthylife.
And so that's what I put myenergy towards.
Lastly was faith.
Um, for me, faith is a majortool.
(22:05):
I don't know how people gothrough this without some sort
of sense of a higher purpose, ahigher power, that this pain
isn't for nothing, that there'sa plan beyond this.
I prayed every single day,multiple times a day, for God to
(22:29):
change me, for God to change hisheart.
You know, that was before I knewabout the affair.
After I found out about theaffair, the prayers changed to
like me finding peace,acceptance, and forgiveness.
And that one I mentioned lastbecause it's been the toughest.
(22:50):
I definitely haven't like fullyforgiven him.
I've I've moved a notch inforgiving her.
Because she only knows what he'stold her.
Got it.
In my mind, she knew all thefacts that I know.
Right.
Like that we moved to Atlantaand we were happy.
(23:12):
Right.
We didn't have problems inArkansas.
We were building a housetogether.
He's married.
I mean, pretty honest one.
You know, like she knew allthese things, but she only knows
what he was telling her.
And if he was telling her someother narrative, then she
(23:37):
wouldn't know that my life isdestroyed and the pain that I
went through.
Yeah.
I think it's like kind of aspectrum also.
In the book, I outline that onone, like on the left-hand side
is acceptance and on the righthand side is forgiveness.
(24:00):
And it's like a like it's astair step from acceptance to
forgiveness.
She's kind of moved a notch inthat in that spectrum.
Um, he's still way over herethough.
Like, do I accept that he is alying asshole douchebag?
Yeah, I can accept that.
Yeah, easy to accept that.
(24:20):
Got it.
Can I accept that he has troublecommunicating his needs and
values?
Clearly.
I if you don't say things foryears and years and years and
there's a blow-up, I can acceptthat you can't communicate.
Can I accept that he's a flawedhuman being?
(24:45):
It's a little harder, but yeah,I can accept that he's flawed.
And so it kind of like moves itsway towards forgiveness.
I haven't quite like crossed thechasm into forgiveness yet,
though.
So And that's why I asked thequestion of people on the
podcast because I'm it's likeself-serving.
Like I want to know, no, how didyou forgive?
(25:07):
And everybody says the samething that forgiveness is more
for you than it is for the otherperson.
It's like that other person putyou in chains and you're
deciding to still live in thosechains or to break them.
Yeah.
unknown (25:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (25:20):
Um, okay, so there's this like viral trend going
around where you, as this likemore mature, experienced person,
take your younger self out tocoffee.
Oh.
And you talk to them about, youknow, just like what their life
is going to be like, and youkind of just like give them
encouragement.
Yeah.
So throughout this process,there were probably many low
points.
(25:40):
I want you to pick the lowestpoint.
Yeah.
And I want you to go back rightnow, what you know at the end of
this process, go back to thatlowest point in the process.
What would you tell yourself?
Okay, I have a I have like arevenge fantasy again.
unknown (25:53):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (25:54):
So we're still over here in the hours.
And it's when we're when we'reat the apartment, the night of
the outburst.
Uh-huh.
See you next Tuesday.
Yep.
Outburst.
I I'm kind of watching ithappen, and Abby's on the couch
(26:14):
freezing.
Yeah.
And it's almost like this newAbby comes in, like, tag teams
in, and she and she like, andshe like touches Abby.
She's like, hey, you know what?
Why don't you go to the gym?
Yeah.
Why don't you get grab a ToboChico?
Why don't you go for a walk orgo to the gym?
I got it from here.
(26:35):
And timid, frozen Abby gets upand leaves.
And new Abby comes in.
And all puffed up.
And she's like, guess what?
I'm not going after half.
Because I'm getting more thanhalf.
But she just kind of takes overfrom there.
(26:56):
I would tell the lowest Abby,you're gonna come out.
You do not believe me.
Like, but trust me, you're gonnacome out of this stronger, more
resilient, with deeperfriendships, more connections,
more confidence, and more likefivefold more confidence than
(27:22):
you can imagine.
It sucks right now, but look atme, girl.
Yeah.
Like you're gonna be okay, andyou're gonna be better than what
you were.
Yeah.
That's great.
That's great.
Okay, just rattled off likeconfidence.
You know, you have moreconfidence now.
(27:42):
Um what are some of thestrengths that you leaned into
during those two years?
You need different strengths atdifferent times.
For me, I had almost like threetracks going on.
Track one was getting throughthe divorce itself.
(28:04):
Yep.
That's the first track.
Track two is uh establishing andcultivating a life in Atlanta
because I want to live there.
I didn't want to like retreatback to Bentonville or St.
Louis.
Atlanta's my town.
You fucking move.
Yeah.
(28:24):
And the third track of of thatgot lesser energy, but it is
still there, is like datingagain.
So the first track of justgetting through the divorce, I
mean, I do think I have astrength of just getting shit
done.
Yes.
Professionally, personally, Ican just get shit done.
(28:46):
And that takes grit, resilience,determination, discipline,
sacrifice, kind of those obviouswarrior-like strengths.
I I will say what's new thoughis the strength of like fighting
back.
I'm I'm I'm super conflictaverse.
(29:10):
Yeah.
Super conflict averse.
But I wasn't gonna, I wasn'tgonna settle for less than what
I was worth.
And so I was fighting back, notonly for me, but I also felt
like a purpose of fighting backfor other people who had been
(29:34):
put in a box or walked oneggshells in their relationship
because their spouse had angertemper issues.
So, like, it wasn't just for me,it was for other people also.
And like, oh, you want tounderestimate me, you want to
(29:54):
undervalue me, come at me.
If you want corporate Barbie,I'll be corporate Barbie.
And she likes to negotiate,she's not conflict averse.
Let's go.
So, like puffing up and fightingback was a new strength that I
leaned into.
I do think it takes confidenceand courage to that kind of
spans across all three.
Yeah, it takes confidence andcourage when you're getting
(30:17):
through it to truly trustyourself.
A lot of people were coming atme with like, just get it done
as fast as you can, settle, getout of this thing.
And it all came from a place oflove and wanting, you know, me
to be in this next chapter.
But I also didn't want tosacrifice my financial position
(30:41):
just to get it done.
Right.
So listening to yourself andeven the depositions, people
were like, do you really want tosit through that and hear all
those details?
You know what?
It's gonna be tough, but yeah, Iwant to because I want to know
what the fuck happened becausemy life blew up and I don't
really know why or what thetimeline was or what the hell
(31:03):
happened.
I want to know.
Yeah, yeah.
So it's almost like lettingfeedback kind of bounce off you
a little bit and truly trustingyourself and having the courage
to kind of go against what otherpeople are saying a little bit,
yeah, and and being decisive inwhat you want.
(31:26):
Allowing others to help you is abig one.
Yep.
That is a brand new one for me.
It's why I left Sam's Club to goto NEVCO because I didn't know
how to ask for help.
So this being able to let peoplehelp you, like in the meeting
I'm in the mediation, the firstmediation, I had a therapy
appointment like the day prior,and my therapist was like, tell
(31:48):
your lawyer how you're feeling.
And it's her job to help you.
And so I remember looking at thebalance sheet and it's sloppy,
and they're missing things, andjust feeling like confused and
inadequate.
And I look at my lawyer and I'mlike, I just feel rushed.
She goes, Then we don't settletoday.
You can go get a 50-50 deal anyday of the week.
We don't settle.
(32:09):
And so being vulnerable enoughto kind of say what you're
feeling out loud and lettingpeople help you and trusting
their help.
And then I'd say the last one ishumor, being able to laugh at
things.
Maybe I wasn't always laughinglike in the moment, but stepping
(32:31):
away and being able to see maybethe the absurdity or the
ridiculousness of things hasreally helped tremendously.
And I got the opportunity to dostand-up comedy.
Which was so cool.
You got so much material goingthrough a divorce.
I have so much material.
(32:52):
So and dating again.
So much material.
So I would say, yeah, thosethose are the strengths that
that I leaned into.
Each person has to lean into thestrengths that that they know
has served them in the past ingetting through something like
this.
Yeah.
Okay, so you talked aboutstrengths and then the
(33:13):
challenges that you had toovercome.
Within this process, what corevalues crystallize for you at
the end in this?
Yeah.
Like I mentioned, your what youfind challenging and your core
values, I think, are kind oflike opposite sides of the same
(33:34):
coin.
They can the your what you findchallenging will give you
insight into what's reallyimportant to you.
Sorry, your values are whatdrive your feelings, your
actions, your decisions.
Um, so first, like faith, likethat became crystal clear.
I prayed multiple times a day.
(33:58):
And at first the prayer was, youknow, when I thought it was my
fault, when I cared about allthat guilt, the prayer was
change me.
And then like change him, changehis heart.
And then after I found out aboutthe affair, it the prayer
changed to like forgiveness,being able to forgive them,
(34:20):
which I'm still working on.
I'm not saying I pray forforgiveness every day, but you
know, that's kind of the themeof prayer after that point.
But yeah, the faith.
Like life will punch you in theface.
May not be this, it might besomething else.
(34:41):
A parent going throughdepression, a sibling lost to
suicide or something.
God forbid.
But life will punch you, andyour faith is what's gonna get
you through it.
But then also that kind ofbecomes like a non-negotiable
for the next partner that you'relooking for as well, someone who
(35:03):
mirrors, who understands it's usagainst this thing, not us
against each other.
Another value that I think wascultivated and goes back to the
strength of fighting back wasadvocating for myself.
Obviously.
The stories that I shared aboutthe trapdoors in the past, I
(35:25):
wasn't advocating for myself.
I was shrinking and justfreezing, not don't want things
to escalate beyond where theyare, you know, and then and then
never coming back to them andbeing like, we need to figure
this out.
Right.
Because I'm not doing thatagain.
That is a promise that I madefor myself is I will never be
(35:49):
scared in my own home again.
No one's gonna advocate for youin this process.
You have to do it for yourself.
Absolutely.
You have to drive your divorce,and only you know what you're
willing to kind of like bend andgive on.
Right.
Another core value is I think Ibecame way more empathetic and
(36:17):
non-judgmental of people.
I was probably judgmentalbefore.
And I don't know if you wouldhave known it, but I would have
had judgments on who getsdivorced, who gets cheated on,
who's unemployed, all thosethings that happen to me.
Yep.
So maybe I had to go throughthis, but I've I've I have a
(36:37):
whole new level of empathy forpeople, and that I've never
walked a day in your shoes.
And I I think that's a commonthread with most of my podcast
guests is empathy for otherpeople really moves to empathy
for yourself and for othersreally kind of recalibrates
(36:58):
going through this process.
That's what this whole processdoes, actually.
It recalibrates what might havebeen a value, but brings it to
the surface or brings it to thetop five.
Um, because before uh itprobably would have been like
(37:19):
drive, ambitiousness, right,achievement.
Um, it would have been thosethings.
Now it's more about likeconnections and relationships
and being a good human.
Yeah.
And that kind of leads me to thelast value of like unconditional
(37:42):
love.
I love you as long as you kindof check these boxes, kind of
stay within these.
If you fall outside of these,God forbid you have a midlife
(38:04):
change in passion.
Right.
Uh, or that you grow from theperson you were 15 years ago
when we want to change yourhabits that aren't serving you,
right?
Or you don't wear a song to bed,right?
Or you don't wear makeup aroundthe house.
Yeah.
I love you as long as you kindof keep to this checklist
unconditional love is acceptingand loving someone for who they
(38:27):
are, who they're not, andallowing them to grow.
So you talked about a futurepartner.
So what are your non-negotiableswhenever you look at dating in
the future?
I have found it hard when I'mdoing like values work in
therapy, which I highlyrecommend people do.
(38:48):
It's kind of hard for the valuesto not become the checklist for
the next person.
But just remember that they'reyour values.
Like what's important to you.
Other people can have othervalues, but I do think you want
them to be somewhat aligned.
They don't have to be exactlyone for one and two for two and
three for three.
(39:08):
But I think the top seven, eightvalues probably need to be
pretty similar to each other.
Yeah.
Yeah.
For there to be alignment, Iwould say, in the relationship.
Yeah.
So opposites attract, but notreally.
But it yeah.
(39:28):
Uh yeah.
So those non-negotiables are alot of the values that I have
that I'm looking for in apartner.
Empathy, honesty, loyalty.
Actually, playfulness and humorhave come up to the list that I
probably wouldn't have put onthe list.
(39:49):
Um, anybody knows my ex?
No, those are not values orcharacteristics.
No, but humor and playfulnesshave definitely moved up.
Yeah, you need that.
Okay, so I remember you comingback one night from dinner, um,
having dinner with a friend herein Arkansas.
She said, um, he was black andwhite and you were confetti.
(40:11):
And if anyone knows you two,that is the perfect visual for
the two of you.
So I love that in your futurepartner, playfulness and humor
is like up there because that iswho you are.
Like you are outgoing,confident, fun, you know, just
so different than than your ex.
(40:31):
That this is, I think you're onlike the best journey forward.
Thank you.
Yeah.
All right.
So everything said and done.
You've gone through thisprocess.
You finalized your divorce in2023.
2024.
2024.
Excuse me.
Yeah.
Yes, two years.
It was literally only last year,which feels crazy.
(40:53):
Um, what did your divorce bringyou?
I struggle with this one alittle bit because a friend who
also was divorced said to meonce, it gives you a second
chance at life.
And I don't disagree with him,but I also struggle with that
(41:14):
answer because I wasn't lookingfor this.
I wasn't looking for a secondchance.
I didn't know.
I I didn't know we were unhappy.
Again, like blindsided.
Run pulled out from under me.
No idea.
But I do think he's right inthat I do get a second chance
with a whole new gift ofperspective and a whole new
(41:40):
respect for a relationship.
Like, he has watched my stories,my Instagram stories while we
were going through it, and evenafter, like after the divorce,
he's watched them.
And a light bulb came on, and Iwas like, he doesn't respect any
(42:00):
relationship that he's in.
Right.
Like, I would not be if I'm hisyou know new fiance, I would not
be okay with you watching yourex-wife's stories.
Like, what?
I I struggle with that secondchance perspective, but it's not
not true.
The other big thing he gave meback was time.
(42:23):
Like meaning when so when I wastelling people about what like
what happened, I'd go into thisspiel of like his six-point plan
of like leaving Sam's Club andgo to Navco and then health
coach, and then all like there'sno like succinct way to explain
what happened.
And now, like when people ask,oh, what what happened?
(42:43):
Oh, he had an affair.
Done.
Three words.
Yep, done.
Okay, he gave me all this timeback.
Yes.
Um it did this process pushesyou into a process of deep
self-examination.
Like you are going to turn overrocks and go into deep dark
(43:08):
corners of yourself that you'renot proud of, right?
That you yourself judge yourselffor.
But it also gives you so muchinsight into how to be gentle
with yourself.
Yeah.
Because if you if you can begentle with yourself, I think
you can be more gentle withothers.
It goes back to that empathy.
(43:29):
Um, it also gave me much deeperfriendships and relationships
with with friends and family.
Sorry.
Like more friendships, morequantity of friendships, more
quality of friendships.
I call it the ROI of pain.
Yeah.
Um there's this one relationshipthat you put all your time and
money and energy into that nowthere's now I've got so many
(43:56):
more fruitful relationshipsbecause of this.
Because of the investments, kindof the deposits I've made in all
these other relationships in mylife.
It's kind of learning that oneperson can't be your everything.
Yeah.
They can't be your source ofhappiness.
Like one person isn't yourspouse and your accountability
(44:18):
partner and your fitness coachand your uh career mentor and
your therapist.
Like they can't, and your sourceof happiness.
That's a lot we put on onerelationship.
I think it gave me theopportunity to have a platform
and a message and a purpose.
(44:42):
I mean, I told myself every day,I literally have in my bathroom
like a bigger post-it with aline down the middle that says
bitter on one side, better onthe other, and with like
synonyms on each one.
And I look at it every day, andit's a choice.
Some days you're gonna choosebitter, like those revenge
(45:05):
fantasies, and are really gonnalike sound pretty good, pretty
compelling.
And you're gonna call yourlawyer and you're gonna say, Can
I do this?
And she's gonna be like, No.
And you're gonna be like, fine,okay.
Okay, fine.
You're boring.
I don't just kill me.
Abby, thank you for sharing yourstory.
(45:25):
Thank you.
We are incredible.
And I'm so happy to be able todo this with you and to have
walked through the hardest timeswith you by your side.
Yeah.
We walked through it together.
We did.
We've been through hell and backtogether.
Both of us, yeah.
Yeah.
At the same time almost.
So yeah.
Yes.
(45:45):
But we chose better.
We chose better.
That's right.
I five.
Because we don't hug.
No, we don't hug huggers.
We're not hugs.
We don't do hugs.
Okay.
Well, thank you for interviewingme and um investing all this
time as well.
Yeah.
Okay.
Bye.
Thanks for listening to Bitteror Better, where we turn
(46:06):
heartbreak into healing andsurvival into strength.
As Brene Brown says,vulnerability is the last thing
we want to show, but the firstthing we look for in others.
That's what this is all about.
Real people showing up, sharingtheir stories, and reminding the
rest of us that we're not alone.
If this episode resonated withyou, share it with someone who
(46:26):
might need to hear it too.
And remember, you have a choicebetter or better.
See you next time for more realstories, real people, and real
resilience.
Popular Podcasts
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com