February 19, 2026 • 46 mins
Heartbreak can be loud, but clarity often arrives in the quiet. We sit down with Monica to follow her honest path from early sparks to a marriage defined by emotional withdrawal and the constant tension of walking on eggshells. When a cross-country move created space, she finally saw the pattern clearly: hope without progress keeps you stuck. With that shift, she chose a necessary ending, faced the fear of filing, and navigated the messy middle, debt, taxes, stigma, and the surreal drama of serving papers that finally landed thanks to a building-wide fire alarm.
What carries a person through the longest months? Monica shares the small, powerful tools that kept her grounded: weekly massages to restore human touch and lower stress, mystery novels for escape, long walks by Seattle’s water, and a reading list that reframed what change requires. She found a money coach, wrote her money autobiography, and built a plan that led her out of debt and into financial peace. Then she discovered the deeper magic of tidying: over one focused weekend, she sorted her home by one question, does this spark joy? and felt her nervous system exhale. That practice evolved into training as a Marie Kondo consultant and launching a business helping women in transition make room for what’s next.
Across therapy, group work, and real-world setbacks, Monica distilled values that now guide her life: resilience when timelines stretch, curiosity instead of bitterness, resourcefulness in seeking help, and compassion for herself and for others whose marriages we can’t see from the outside. If you’re in the fog right now, her story offers steady ground: you are not alone, endings can be healthy, and a calmer home can quiet your mind while you rebuild. Listen for practical ideas, humane perspective, and proof that the life you want has room to breathe.
If this conversation moved you, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs it, and leave a review to help others find these stories.
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to Bitter or Better, Real Stories of Divorce
and Resilience, the podcast thatgets real about the messy middle
of divorce and what it takes tocome out stronger on the other
side.
I'm your host, Abby England,marketer, national board
certified health and wellnesscoach, and author of the
upcoming book, Bitter or Better,and I've personally earned my
(00:21):
divorce Kevlar.
This podcast isn't legal advice.
It isn't tips and tricks anddon't forgets and hacks and
how-tos.
There's plenty of other podcastsout there, interviewing lawyers,
therapists, accountants, allsorts of divorce scientists.
This podcast is raw, realconversations with everyday
(00:42):
people who have jobs, kids,responsibilities, commitments,
and yet they've weathered theheartbreak, rebuilt their lives,
and found unexpected strengthalong the way.
Because while divorce can breakyou, it can also make you
better.
You are not alone.
Let's hear someone else's storyand see what resonates.
If you would, please interviewyour or interview.
(01:04):
Here we go.
I can do that.
If you would, please introduceyourself to our listeners.
I'm Monica Parker.
Can you say anything else?
No, that's yeah, that's great.
And we know each other justthrough life.
Yes.
Uh huh.
Yeah.
And it seems like after we met,I just kept seeing you at random
places, which is it's I thinkthat's how Atlanta works.
(01:26):
That's true.
A little bit of serendipitythere, too, I think.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I don't know much aboutyour story.
Um that when we met for coffeethat first time, um, the topic
of divorce came up.
And so I was like, oh, Idefinitely want to talk more
with Monica about her story.
Because you have an interestinglife story as well.
(01:48):
And so please interweave thatinto our conversation.
Sure.
But first, I don't know you thatwell.
You don't know any of ourlisteners.
Oh, why on earth did you agreeto sit down with a mere stranger
and tell this chapter of yourlife?
(02:09):
Well, I thought about it fromthe perspective of when I was
going through my divorce.
I felt very alone.
And I think this is a helpfulway to share with other people
that they're not alone.
They're not the only ones goingthrough this.
I think, too, I also felt likeit was never going to end.
And so now being on the otherside of it, I wanted to be a
(02:30):
voice in the wilderness, so tospeak, for people who are in the
thick of it.
Okay.
Sounds like we're gonna have along story here today.
It felt like it was never gonnaend.
Yes.
Um, so maybe let's rewind theclock.
How did you guys meet?
What attracted you to eachother?
What was the marriage like?
(02:50):
Kind of take us through thosebeginning chapters.
Okay.
And I'll say too, I may forgetall of the questions.
So let me do the first one andthen you can tell me what the
episode's worth.
That's that menopausal memoryloss creeping in there.
Let's see.
So the way we met, I had a bookpublished and I decided to throw
a party to celebrate.
My event planner asked me if shecould invite single guys to
(03:13):
attend.
I was single at the time.
I said, sure, great idea.
She invited this guy, and itturns out another friend of mine
who was at the party knew him aswell.
And she actually introduced thetwo of us at the party.
We met there and sparks flew andswept me off my feet.
And then maybe four years later,we got married.
Okay, sidebar, publishing a bookis a milestone in and of itself.
(03:36):
What is the name of your book?
The name of the book is TheUnhappy Lawyer Roadmap Defining
Meaningful Work Outside of theLaw.
I am a lawyer by trade, but hadstopped practicing at the time.
And I was a career coach workingwith lawyers who didn't want to
practice but weren't sure whatthey wanted to do.
So the book was an outcome ofthat work and it was super
exciting to be published forsure.
Okay, so you had this kind oflaunch party for the book, and
(03:59):
then you met this man and sparksflew, as you put it.
So what happened next?
Yeah.
So we dated, as I said, for asignificant period of time.
I would say there were manythings about him that attracted
me to him, from his sense ofhumor to this charisma that he
had.
He came across as a gentlegiant, just a thoughtful person,
(04:23):
a good listener, just someone Icould feel safe and secure with.
And I was excited that I foundhim.
I was close to 40 at that pointand wondering if I'd ever meet
anyone that I wanted to marry.
And it felt a bit like, okay,this was meant to be.
We met through my book party.
And so we had a really fun timedating.
(04:43):
And again, it just seemed likehe was the one.
So eventually we got married.
So you get married.
What is the marriage like?
And maybe take us throughlogistically, where are you?
Yeah.
So we were living in Atlanta,Georgia at the time, and I owned
a condo.
And so he moved into my condo.
(05:04):
And I would say we had thatinitial honeymoon period.
Things were good.
But I noticed over time that weseemed to go through these
phases.
There were phases where thingswere great.
We were clicking on allcylinders.
We communicated well, we laughedtogether, just had a very good
partnership.
(05:24):
And then there were these othertimes where it felt like we just
weren't on the same page.
And I came to realize that hewas emotionally disconnecting
during those times.
And emotional connection isreally important to me.
And I'm very sensitive to it.
So I was noticing thathappening.
And then I noticed over time Iwas getting more and more
(05:44):
anxious about that.
When was that going to happen?
If we were in a good phase, whenwas the bad phase going to come?
And was there anything I coulddo so that it wouldn't happen?
So I got very caught up intrying to predict when those
times would happen.
And again, was there somethingthat I was doing to cause them?
And it just kept happening.
(06:05):
And it seemed as if over time wewere having more and more of
those bad phases.
You can say pass to any questionhere.
I'm curious if you're willing toshare a little bit more about
what these bad times were like.
Sure.
And again, this might be helpfulfor a listener.
(06:26):
Essentially, something wouldhappen.
I would do something.
And again, it wasn't that it wasalways the same thing.
Maybe I forgot to do somethingor neglected to listen at a time
that he felt was important.
What he would do is he wouldgive me the silent treatment,
essentially.
He would disappear into his ownworld, into another room, or he
(06:46):
would leave the home.
I would notice that he wasconnecting with his friends or
his family, but we weren'texperiencing that same kind of
connection.
And then eventually that phasewould pass and he'd be back to
normal, his normal, happy,good-humored self.
But that's what was happening isthose periods of silent
treatment.
And so it felt a punishment forsomething, but I didn't know
what it was specifically that Iwas doing, or even if I tried
(07:09):
doing things differently, itdidn't seem to help.
Okay.
It sounds a bit like walking oneggshells, or how how might you
describe it?
It's not a bit.
It's absolutely walking oneggshells.
Yes, that was my experience forthe the period of time that we
were married.
And even really in hindsightprior to the marriage, that was
(07:31):
happening when we were dating aswell.
I just couldn't see it.
What then eventually happened orcame to light that kind of
brought the D-word in into theconversation?
There were a couple of thingsthat I think were catalysts for
it.
I had started seeing acounselor.
We were also doing marriagecounseling, but I was seeing a
(07:53):
counselor independently.
And in that time, the two of ushad decided, my husband and I,
that we were going to movesomewhere else.
We wanted to move to a differentpart of the country.
I had applied for a position inSeattle, Washington, and
received an offer for theposition.
And we decided we would move toSeattle.
(08:14):
Prior to doing that, I had onelast meeting with the counselor.
And she said, I'm going torecommend a book for you.
She said, You may not be readyfor it now, but might be
something that you want to readat some point.
I said, Okay, what is it?
She said, It's called NecessaryEndings.
And I knew what she was saying.
Perhaps I'd want to read thisbook and consider a necessary
ending with my husband.
(08:35):
I was not ready for that.
So I just wrote the book titledown and took it away with me
when I moved to Seattle.
So that was the first thing.
I think the second thing,though, and this was really
important, is that my thenhusband had a business here in
Atlanta.
So his plan was to go back andforth between Atlanta and
Seattle.
So I moved.
(08:56):
And within that first month ofbeing on my own across country,
it was almost like a lightswitch had flipped on.
And I realized that I was in anunhealthy marriage and that it
wasn't going to change, which isalso when I did read the book
Necessary Endings and realizedthat I've been relying on hope
that things would change.
And the authors talked about howhope is not a strategy that you
(09:20):
actually need to see someprogress.
And I wasn't seeing that in themarriage, in spite of marriage
counseling, all the things thatI had tried to do.
And so that propelled me todecide to file for divorce.
So having that space, your alonetime to think and process and
read these materials, a lightswitch went on.
(09:42):
Yeah.
And I do think what you'resaying is correct.
I think having that space, thatdistance, allowed me to see the
marriage for what it actuallywas.
I'm not sure I would have beenable to do that if I had stayed
in Atlanta and we had beenliving together at the time.
I think I did need to moveacross country and have space to
myself to realize what I was in.
So through the space and timethat you had with yourself, you
(10:07):
realized he's not going tochange.
What was the next step then?
The next step was filing fordivorce.
And that means, of course,getting an attorney.
I knew from my research that Ineeded to find an attorney in
the Atlanta area that I need tofile for divorce there.
And this same counselor had whohad been such a resource for me,
(10:28):
was someone that I reached outto at that time, and she
recommended a local attorney,Damon Bivick.
I think it's Bivek and Brubaker.
Or Brew Baker and Vivek.
And so that was the first step.
I should say actually there wasa step before that, of course.
You don't just file for divorce.
You have to decide that's whatyou're going to do.
(10:50):
And I thought about it.
I'm a Christian, so I prayedabout it.
And it wasn't something that Iever anticipated that I would be
doing.
But again, when I realized thatthe marriage was unhealthy and
that it wasn't going to change,that it was impacting me in very
negative ways.
And the only way I was going tobe able to move forward was to
(11:11):
extricate myself, then that'show I made the decision.
I also did have a conversationwith my then husband about the
fact that I was going to filefor divorce.
As you can imagine, that did notgo well.
He asked me to think about it toreconsider, and I had made up my
mind by that point.
That is when I reached out to mycounselor, got a recommendation
(11:31):
for an attorney, and contactedthe attorney to begin the
process.
Probably a cocktail of feelings.
What were some of those?
There was a lot of fear, fear ofhow my then husband might react,
(11:55):
fear of what this process ofdivorce was going to be like,
what was going to be involved,fear of what it would be like to
be on my own again, because thatwasn't something that I had
anticipated.
I think a lot of fear of theunknown.
There was also some I think youclassified as a feeling.
(12:16):
There was some curiosity, Ithink, about what life would be
like after.
Because again, I knew it wasn'thealthy.
I knew that it was a necessarystep for me to take.
And so I suspected that thingscould be good on the other side
of it, but that's all I knew atthat point.
I knew that there was going tobe a long, painful journey
(12:37):
ahead.
But I was curious.
And I was also a bit relieved.
Once you make that decisionabout something that's really
hard and really painful, but youfinally decide, okay, I'm gonna
do, I'm gonna do this.
There is that sense of relief.
I remember feeling that.
Thank you for sharing thatpre-step.
Yeah, because it doesn't justhappen.
(12:57):
What did you maybe have to do orget in order your ducks in a row
in order to file for divorce?
There's this whole process ofgetting a sense of your
finances, your finances, yourjoint finances.
I don't think I know anybody whothinks that's fun.
(13:17):
That was really stressful too.
One of the things that came upis that when I told my then
husband I wanted to file fordivorce, that's when he told me
that he hadn't filed our taxes.
The twist.
There's the twist.
There's the plot twist.
Yes.
So on top of navigating adivorce, I also had to figure
(13:39):
out what to do about the taxsituation.
You mentioned the life elements.
I should say that at that sametime I had moved to Seattle for
a new position.
At that point, I was notpracticing law, but I was
working on the administrativeside at a large law firm.
And that position turned out notto be a good fit for me.
So I had moved across thecountry.
(14:01):
I didn't know anyone there.
I had a job that wasn't workingout.
And now I had a marriage thatwasn't working out.
So it was a really difficulttime.
And then to add on that, thispiece about, oh, I didn't pay
our taxes.
It was a really stressful timein my life.
Yeah.
The word that's coming up for meis isolated.
(14:23):
Yes.
I was very isolated.
And something interestinghappens when you file for
divorce.
I don't know if this is true foreveryone, but I do feel like
I've talked to a number ofwomen, friends, and otherwise
who've been through divorce.
And it sounds like it might be acommon theme, which is even if
I'd been in Atlanta, there'ssomething about the stigma of
(14:45):
going through a divorce thatcauses people to withdraw.
So, in other words, thefriendships and relationships
that you have, those aren'tthings that you can always
maintain in the midst of adivorce for whatever reason.
Um, I do think that sometimespeople are worried that your
divorce might rub off on them.
It's contagious.
(15:06):
So they keep their distance.
But yeah, I had an additionalelement of isolation because I
had moved across country anddidn't know anyone there.
Uh, so the question was, how wasI going to take care of myself
when I didn't have my usualsupport system?
I did have my family, of course.
They didn't live nearby, butthey were definitely a source of
support for me at the time.
(15:28):
Thank you for opening up andbeing vulnerable about that and
sharing this is the context ofmy life.
And a divorce sucks in and ofitself, but then when you layer
on these other things thatyou're talking about, it is like
exponential.
Yeah, it was a bit much in anunderstated British kind of way.
(15:53):
And the mission and purpose ofthis podcast is to help people
feel like they're not alone.
Um, even in maybe a similarsituation where they're feeling
isolated, but they can put on apodcast and hear other people's
stories of divorce andresilience and coming out better
(16:15):
on the other side.
So I hope that it instills asense of hope in them.
So you're in Seattle, you've gotthis cocktail of feelings and
emotions.
What tools did you utilize tohelp you get through the hardest
of days?
(16:35):
That's a great question.
One of the things that Irealized pretty quickly is that
if I didn't have connections orgenuine connections in Seattle,
that meant that in addition tofeeling isolated, I was also
feeling that physically.
So not just emotionally, butphysically.
(16:57):
And it occurred to me that I waslacking in touch.
In other words, I wasn't near myfamily, so I couldn't get a hug
from my parents or my brothers.
I didn't have any friends, so Icouldn't get hugs from friends.
A little odd to ask yourcoworkers for hugs.
Lawyers.
These are lawyers.
Yeah, that's not really so oneof the things I did early on was
(17:17):
to schedule weekly massages.
And I was fortunate theyactually were covered by my
health insurance.
But that was a tremendous sourceof support for me early on, just
to go in and have someone workon my body.
It helped with touch, obviously.
(17:38):
It helped with stress, it helpedwith tension, and it was a
wonderful human connection thatI didn't have otherwise.
I don't even know what made medecide to do it initially, but I
did realize very early on thatthere are those studies they did
however many years ago aboutnewborn babies needing touch in
(18:01):
the hospital and how they died,unfortunately, when they weren't
getting that.
And it occurred to me thatwouldn't just be babies, that
would be anyone of any age.
So that was one of the firstthings I did that was super
helpful.
And I looked forward to those.
The massage therapist was awonderful person.
She had a great sense of humor.
She knew what I was goingthrough.
(18:22):
And so I really um lookedforward to those weekly massage
therapy sessions.
That is such a great tip.
Oh, good.
That's such a good tip.
What what else did you utilizeand lean into?
I am an avid reader.
Uh I I have always been an avidreader.
In addition to that book,Necessary Endings, I started
(18:42):
looking for other books thatcould help me through this time.
And this one is very specific,but it may be helpful to some of
your listeners.
It occurred to me that, ofcourse, there were things that I
could work on, right, in thecontext of being in
relationship.
There was work I needed to do onmyself, and I did feel like
(19:02):
there was something veryparticular about my then
husband.
I started doing some researchand I found this book called The
Sociopath Next Door.
Okay.
And when I read it, again, I'm alay person, I'm not a
psychologist or therapist orcounselor, but I did see a lot
(19:23):
of parallels between thedescription of a sociopath and
my then husband.
And oddly enough, that wasreassuring because the book
talked about how sociopaths tendto find not weak people, but
people who are loyal and who arestrong and who can be a source
(19:45):
of support for that person.
And that helped comfort mebecause I wondered if maybe this
was just about me.
Like maybe I was a weak personand it was easy for someone to
latch on.
And the book talked about no,actually, sociopaths tend to be
very charismatic and can fooljust about anyone, from the
layperson to a psychologist, atherapist.
(20:07):
And when I thought back to ourcounseling sessions, I thought,
you know what?
I think that was happening inthose sessions.
I think he was charming thecounselor as well.
So that book was a reallyhelpful support for me.
I don't know for sure if myex-husband is a sociopath, but
he certainly demonstrated someof those tendencies.
Reading was a huge um source ofsupport for me, whether it was a
(20:32):
book about the dynamics ofrelationships or or even just
something for fun.
I love mysteries.
I was definitely indulging in alot of mystery reading at the
time.
Even reading for fun, like totake you out of because some
days it's about survival.
It is.
Yeah.
It is.
It is just about can I getthrough this day and reading or
(20:55):
a massage or going for a walk bythe water?
Seattle's surrounded by water.
So that was another beautifulaspect of being there.
In fact, I met a consultantthrough work who I developed a
friendship with, and he told methat Seattle is often a place of
rebirth for people.
(21:15):
So he said, it's not surprisingyou found your way here, found
yourself getting a divorce, andsome people fall in love with
Seattle and stay.
And for others, it's just aphase of their life where they
are going through that process.
So yeah, walks by the water,movies, to your point about
being able to escape from yourlife for an hour or two.
Movies are an hour now.
(21:35):
So 90 minutes, two hours, twoand a half.
A great way to take a break fromreality.
So those things are reallyhelpful.
The initial big challenge wasserving my then husband.
You have to serve them in orderto file for divorce.
And he was dodging the processserver.
(21:56):
I remember being in the officeat work, I was in a Meeting and
I saw that my attorney wascalling, so I excused myself and
went in the hallway.
My attorney said we tried toserve him again, maybe the third
or fourth time.
Wow.
He said we couldn't get to him.
And I remember thinking, I don'tthink I'm gonna make it.
We can't even serve him.
I don't know what else to do.
(22:17):
I I can't make this happen.
It has to happen.
I don't know.
I don't know if I can survivethis.
Fortunately, it was maybe thenext week.
My attorney called laughing.
He said, We got him.
I said, How did you get him?
He said, He's still living inyour condo.
He said, and oddly enough, hesaid, while we were there, the
(22:42):
fire alarm went off.
And everyone came out onto thefront patio of the building.
And he came out and we servedhim.
And I thought, Providence.
So that was the first bigchallenge.
Now, once once we got into thethick of the divorce
proceedings, it really was thefinancial piece.
(23:02):
As I said, even when you want toblame this person that you're
with for everything, there arethings that you have to learn
about yourself, and there areways that you have to grow and
develop.
And so I needed to work on how Ihandled money.
And in the context of thisrelationship, neither of us was
that great at handling money.
And so he definitely added somefinancial challenges to our
(23:25):
relationship.
And he wasn't particularlyinterested in resolving them.
So that fell to me.
And so we didn't have assets.
We didn't have children, which Ido think was a blessing in this
case.
We just had debt.
And that proved to be thesticking point in getting to a
resolution with the divorcebecause I wasn't particularly
(23:48):
interested in taking on more ofhis debt than I thought would be
fair.
So the divorce dragged on forseveral months.
In Georgia, I'm assuming it'sstill the same case.
You can be divorced within amonth.
It took several months for us tofinally get to a resolution on
that.
So that was very stressful.
(24:08):
My personal divorce process, Ifiled in uh February of 2023,
and I got my final divorcedecree, Labor Day weekend of
2024.
So it took a little longer thana few months.
But we went through a fulldiscovery and all of that fun
stuff.
Yes.
All the joy.
Yeah.
(24:29):
It I think it took, it's beenseveral years now since I've
been divorced.
So I think it took about 10months total.
Okay.
So, you know, in the scheme ofthings, not a long time, but
when you think it's only goingto take a month, 10 months feels
like a lifetime.
And also remember, and you knowthis, when you're in the middle
of it, you don't know when it'sgoing to end.
So you're going from month tomonth thinking, is this the
(24:50):
month?
No, it's not.
Is this the month?
No, it's not.
And so you do begin to wonder,will it ever end?
Yeah.
And then when it does end,you're like, whoa, it's over.
This weird purgatory I've beenin is over.
That's a weird space too, forsure.
I remember when my attorneycalled and said it was all said
(25:11):
and done.
I was actually in New York forwork, and I took myself out to
dinner.
I just remember sitting therethinking, this is weird.
Of course, I was happy becauseit had been so stressful for
such a long time, but it alsofelt weird.
You spend a lot of energy duringthe divorce, and there's also a
(25:32):
lot of for me, there's a lot ofanger and frustration and
sadness and just outrage.
And then all of a sudden, it'sover.
And then you're left with thiswhat felt to me like an empty
space.
What do you do with that?
And I knew I didn't want to fillit with bitterness.
So then it was, what do I donow?
Sure.
(25:53):
Yeah, definitely a weird time,but a joyous time too.
And you're how many years outare you from your divorce?
I am now eight years out.
Eight years out.
Okay.
And you've curated a whole otherlife for yourself that we're
definitely going to talk aboutbecause I'm sure it uh I'm sure
you wouldn't get there orwouldn't be where you are
(26:16):
without going through andstepping on these stones.
But if you could go back andhave a conversation with the
Monica who was just trudgingthrough those hard days, what
would you tell her now?
I think probably the mostimportant thing I'd say to
myself is you did the best youcould with what you knew at the
(26:40):
time.
Because I did spend a lot oftime beating myself up during
the divorce process, after thedivorce for several years.
How did you end up in thissituation?
Why did you marry someone likethat?
What does that say about you?
And I realized over time thatall I was doing was beating
myself up and really beatingmyself bloody, frankly.
(27:01):
That wasn't helpful.
And so I had to come to termswith the fact that I had chosen
this person, fallen in love withthis person, married this
person, and then eventuallyneeded to divorce this person.
And I did the best I could withwhat I knew at the time.
And that has given me some senseof peace over the years.
You mentioned a little bit aboutthe tools and strategies that
(27:24):
you utilized.
This podcast also has a healthand wellness lens to it.
I'm curious, how did youprioritize and maintain your
health of being during thistime?
I think there were two criticalthings that I did.
The first is because it was sucha challenging financial
(27:45):
situation, I ended up finding amoney coach.
SPEAKER_01 (27:47):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:48):
Her name's Michael Ann Valtera, and she's based in
Seattle, but she works withclients anywhere.
I had this sense that, yes, ofcourse, the finances of the
divorce, my relationship, thatthose are going to be
challenging.
But I knew there was somethingmore there.
There was work that I needed todo personally about that.
And Michael Ann is very skilledat working with women who find
(28:13):
themselves in the position ofwondering what's going on with
them and their money.
And she helped me to do somework around my own money
autobiography.
What did I learn about moneygrowing up?
How did I treat money over theyears?
And then, of course, she alsohelped me navigate the financial
difficulties of the divorce.
(28:33):
So she helped me put together amoney plan so I knew where my
money was going and where Iwanted it to go over time.
And this did take a lot of time,but over several years, she
helped me to create a plan toget out of debt, which I was
able to achieve.
And she helped me to findfinancial peace, which so that
was a critical part of myjourney during that time.
(28:57):
The second thing I did, becauseI love to read, my sister-in-law
recommended this book called TheLife Changing Magic of Tidying
Up by Marie Kondo.
And just a funny little aside,when she first told me about it,
it was a New York Timesbestseller.
And I thought, I'm not gonnaread that.
Like, I'm not reading it becauseeverybody else is reading it.
I don't read books that everyoneelse is reading.
(29:18):
I'm not a sheep.
The funny part is I ended upgoing to a bookstore.
I spent a lot of time inbookstores, and there it was,
sitting on the shelf, staring atme.
Prominently.
It was staring at me on theshelf in the midst of all these
other books.
I picked it up, I browsed it, Ibought it, I brought it home,
and I read it that night.
(29:39):
Marie talks about doing a tidingfestival.
So essentially, where you'regoing through your home and you
are identifying what sparks joy,and then you're thanking and
letting go of things that don't.
And so I took myself through atiding festival.
I had a three-day weekend comingup, and I just spent that
weekend going through everythingin my home.
(29:59):
And it was a huge source ofsupport for me too, right?
Making sure that my space wascomforting, nurturing, joyful,
peaceful, all those things thatI was looking for in my life.
And it was a bit of aforeshadowing because
eventually, a few years later, Ifound out that Marie Kondo was
(30:20):
teaching other people how to useher methodology.
So I went through hercertification program and became
a certified Kanmari consultant.
And then fast forward a fewyears later, I decided to start
a professional organizingbusiness.
And so that's what I do now.
I work with women who are busyand overwhelmed by the state of
their homes to help themdeclutter and organize so they
(30:42):
can have space to exhale andrelax in their homes.
And I find, I was gonna sayoddly enough, but I don't think
it's so odd, actually, that thewomen who tend to be my clients
are often in major transitionsthemselves, whether it's divorce
or a midlife career transitionor empty nest, ooh,
paramenopause or menopause,those are the women who tend to
(31:03):
find me.
All those years ago, this bookthat I was resistant to and then
read ended up changing my lifein a number of fundamental ways.
But at the time, that was atremendous source of support.
Thank you for sharing that.
Let's go down a bit of a tangenthere because I'm curious, you've
worked with a number of clients.
What connection do you seebetween tidying up and
(31:29):
organization and one's healthand being?
Yeah, it's an interesting kindof connection.
It may not be very obvious,right?
Because particularly if you'respending time on, well, let's
say Instagram and you're seeinglike beautifully color-coded
shelves or something, that'sgreat if that's important to
you.
But it's more about when you aregoing through your things one by
(31:52):
one, you are actuallyindividually examining what's
going on in your life as well.
And again, I I won't claim thatthere are specific studies that
show ties between, say, yourhealth and or your physical
health and your clutter.
But what I can tell you is thatthere are studies that show that
for women specifically, clutterraises our cortisol levels.
(32:16):
And the converse of that is ifyou can tidy your home, then you
can lower your cortisol levelsand you can be more at peace.
I've had many sort ofconversations with women who
laugh about the differencebetween them and their husbands,
how their husbands will oftennot even see the clutter that's
in front of them, will stepright over it.
Whereas the wife is, what isthis?
(32:37):
So I think I know there'ssomething to that.
I would say that for women intransition in particular,
there's something magical aboutgoing through all the things
that you've acquired over theyears.
It could be that there's someanalysis that needs to happen,
some reflection around how thosethings ended up in your life and
(32:57):
are you ready to let go of them?
Because by doing so, you'remaking space for what's new.
And so my clients oftenexperience it as a lift, a
lightning of their being.
You're lifting this weight offof their shoulders and making
space, this open space forwhat's next.
So it's more of a maybe a mentalhealth benefit in that sense.
(33:18):
Yeah.
Just speaking from my ownexperience, moving from a 5,500
square foot house to then a1,200 square, maybe 1100 square
foot apartment in executivehousing.
So none of the stuff wasactually ours.
And then moving to 750 squarefeet apartment in Atlanta, which
(33:43):
is just as expensive as my 5,500square foot house in Arkansas.
But anyway, I realized I don'tneed all this stuff.
The more space I have, the moreI feel like it needs to be
filled with things.
And I don't need any of it.
It's a big realization, I think.
(34:04):
I have clients who come to meand say, Oh, are you going to
make me get rid of everything?
Do I have to be a minimalist?
And my response to that is, ofcourse not.
It's just a question of, does itspark joy?
And if it does, it stays.
And if it doesn't, you thank itand you let it go.
And there are people who will besuper excited to get those
things that you let go.
(34:25):
Those things will spark joy forsomeone else.
But me personally, I think I'msimilar to you in that I don't
need all those things.
And I like having spaciousness,I like having that openness
because that helps me continueto cultivate curiosity about
what's next and leaving spacefor lots of lovely things to
enter my life.
Let's, okay, let's.
(34:46):
That's a great segue.
Um, lovely things to enter yourlife.
What, you know, as you kind ofreflect back, personal insights
and learnings, what values maybecrystallized for you as a result
of going through the DevOps?
(35:08):
That's a good question, too.
And you're reminding me thatpart of what was helpful in
determining the values thatemerge from this, in addition to
working with the money coach, isworking with a therapist.
So I did extensive work with atherapist one-on-one and then
also, or eventually joined awomen's group led by a
therapist.
(35:29):
And what I saw through thatexperience was just how
resilient I am.
Because, like I said early on,when you're going through this,
you might think it's never goingto end and I can't make it.
The truth is, you actually can.
You can make it and you can comeout of it better off.
And that something I'm reallyproud about, the fact that I
(35:50):
survived it and have come out ofit in a much better, brighter
place than I ever could haveimagined.
But resilience is somethingthat's important to me because I
recognize it's not just divorce,right?
We all go through difficultthings in life and we'll
continue to do so.
And so the resilience that Ideveloped by going through this
process will help me throughthose other tough times as well.
I think also mentioned this afew times, curiosity.
(36:13):
And what I mean about that ismaintaining a sense of wonder
about the world and aboutpeople, because it is very easy
to find yourself feeling bitterafter an experience like
divorce.
And I'm not perfect by anystretch of the imagination.
I definitely was bitter for aperiod of time.
I was sad and anxious anddepressed.
Oh, forgot to mention, inaddition to all the other things
(36:36):
that were going on, uh, I wasgoing through perimenopause.
Oh.
So your internal and yourexternal worlds were all just
like a hot mess.
It was a I it was a hot mess.
I was a hot mess.
So I think too, beingresourceful is of an important
value.
And part and parcel of that, Ithink, is how do I put this?
Is knowing this won't be oneword as a value, but knowing
(36:59):
what I couldn't handle and whereI needed support.
Rather than saying, I will dothis all by myself, I will
figure this out, recognizingactually I can't do this by
myself.
That's why I need a therapist,or that's why I need a money
coach, or that's why, yes,Seattle is a hard place to make
friends.
So I think resourcefulness wasanother big part of it.
And then, like I said, justknowing what my limits were and
(37:21):
where I needed support.
You mentioned coming up betteron the other side.
What gifts or opportunities didyour divorce bring you?
It's interesting.
I was talking to someone aboutthis yesterday, actually.
What I said was I wouldn't wishthis on anybody.
And I wish there's a part of methat wishes it had never
(37:43):
happened, right?
That I could rewind and meet himat the party and recognize, no,
step away from that.
I didn't and I can't.
These things have happened.
I do think that going throughthis helps you develop
compassion.
Say more about that.
Yeah, I think um it can be whenthings are going well for you,
(38:05):
you can just give yourself a lotof credit for that fact.
When things go wrong, yourealize that you don't have
control over everything andthings are going to happen to
you that you didn't plan.
And I think now, maybe this is aproduct of age and wisdom too.
I can see others going throughthis experience and know what
(38:27):
it's like and feel compassionfor them as opposed to being
judgmental about it.
I think sometimes folks are veryjudgmental about divorce and
people going through it and willsay things like, When my day
people didn't get divorced, andpeople seem to lack commitment
these days.
And I'm what I'm thinking is youhave no idea what's going on in
(38:48):
someone's marriage.
Yeah.
And I remember reading this whenI was going through divorce and
sticking with me.
And it was something about howwhen someone's going through a
divorce, the temptation is tosay, when you hear is to say,
Oh, I'm so sorry.
When it might be better whenthey tell you that they're
divorced to say,congratulations.
(39:08):
You don't know.
Yeah.
Because in fact, by the timesomeone's made the decision to
get a divorce and then goesthrough that process, they are
ready to be on the other side ofit.
So a congratulations actuallymakes a lot more sense.
So yeah, I I resonate with whatyou're saying around compassion.
I don't feel I was a verycompassionate person before this
(39:30):
or empathetic.
It was very career corporatedriven.
And like the deadline is thedeadline no matter what.
And me personally, I would stayup all night, do all-nighters to
hit the deadline.
And now going through thisprocess, life happens, and
there's no, we don't live ourlives in compartments, our
(39:54):
personal lives, our professionallives, stress in one area is
going to bleed over into theother.
And you just never know whatkind of day someone is having
because of the context of theirpersonal lives.
And so I just I think I'm lessjudgmental, I'm more
(40:15):
compassionate, I'm moreempathetic to what people are
going through, which is a lovelygift, I think.
And yeah, I think for those ofus who are achievement driven,
we know what it takes, we'rewilling to put in the effort,
and we expect to see results.
(40:36):
And we often do.
But as you've pointed out, thereare times when life happens and
you don't have control overthat.
And then it's ridiculous topresume that anyone else has
control over everything in theirlives as well.
And I think that is a majorrealization that leads to that
compassion, that empathy thatyou're talking about.
(40:56):
It could happen to anyone, andit does happen to a lot of
people.
So, and our kind of last fewquestions here, what would you
want others to take away fromhearing your story?
I want to circle back to what wetalked about at the beginning,
which is that if you are feelingalone, if you're feeling like
(41:17):
I'm the only person this ishappening to, you're not.
I hate to say misery lovescompany, but that might be true.
And you're not alone.
I remember when I filed fordivorce and finally got up the
courage to tell my friends inAtlanta, I heard so many stories
(41:37):
about their own experiences ofdivorce or friends of theirs who
went through divorce.
Same with the folks I startedmeeting in Seattle.
And it helped me realize thatI'm not the only person who's
experienced this.
And that was really comfortingto me, I think.
The other thing that I wouldrepeat is that you will get
(42:00):
through it.
It will come to an end.
Because, like I said, in myexperience, I thought I was
going to be done in about amonth.
And instead, it was justdragging on month to month, and
you think I'm never going to getout of this, particularly if
it's a complex divorce wherethere are children, where there
are assets.
It can feel like it's neverending, but I promise you it
will come to an end.
(42:20):
And also that when it comes toan end, if you feel like I did
where it felt a bit unsettlingand you thought, oh, I thought I
was going to feel like amazing.
And you don't feel amazing, giveit some time because it takes
time to make that transition.
Yes, the divorce is finalized,but the transition to being on
your own again and feeling goodin your skin again will take
(42:45):
some time as well.
But that will come.
I'm a very impatient person.
So I think if I heard that, Imight be like, oh, I can do
better.
I can, again, I'm achievingoriented, I can make this
happen.
You can try that.
But if you notice that's notworking, just know that cliches
exist for a reason.
Time does heal all wounds.
Yeah.
(43:06):
Once you felt, I don't know,maybe vulnerable to open up to
your friends and colleaguesaround what was going on, what
you got back was um equalvulnerability and them sharing
their stories.
For sure.
And I was also mad, I'll justsay that, because I thought,
(43:26):
hey, man, why didn't you sharethis?
Like when I was struggling in mymarriage.
And I think they're, I don'tknow.
I don't know if it's that peoplewant to keep those things
private, and that's okay too,right?
You're not required to share allof your life with someone else,
your friends.
But there was something aboutsaying that I was filing for
(43:48):
divorce that allowed people toopen up in a way that they
hadn't done before.
But yeah, that was reallyhelpful because I think I'd
built this story in my headabout how I.
should be how my life should beand to find that others didn't
have a perfect life meant it wasokay for me not to have a
perfect life.
So it was very reassuring, yes.
(44:10):
Yeah.
The mission purpose of thepodcast that network is so
important to have friends andfamily to be your support
network.
Should one not have that or justnot feel comfortable, hopefully
podcasts like this can help themfeel that their feelings are
(44:31):
valid and they're not alone.
For sure.
I would say find a therapist,find a support group, but in the
middle of the night when youwake up and it's just you,
essentially this podcast is likea voice in the wilderness,
right?
It's that light that people needto know that yeah to know that
(44:52):
they're not alone because you'renot I would love for you to
share because you work withclients virtually as well.
And so should a listener beinterested in tidying up,
organizing, maybe resetting thispart of their lives, how can
they get in touch with you?
Yeah, the best way to reach meis by email at monicarparker at
(45:14):
gmail.com.
Don't forget the R.
I work with clients in person inthe Atlanta metro area and
virtually if you're anywhereelse.
People just have this sense thatif they were to go through their
belongings, sort what they need,what they want, what supports
them and let go of the rest thatit will somehow help them in
their divorce transition, that'sa good reason to reach out to me
(45:36):
or someone like me to help you.
So yeah, I'm happy to help inthat regard.
Great.
I'm I hope that someonelistening reaches out because it
sounds like it really can betherapeutic as part of the
process.
I think that's right.
That's a great word.
It's not therapy but it istherapeutic.
Cathartic.
Yeah.
Monica, thank you so much forbeing here today.
(45:56):
Really appreciate you sharingyour story and vulnerably
opening up and sharing kind ofthe good, the bad and the ugly.
Absolutely.
Thank you for having me.
Thanks for listening to Bitteror Better, where we turn
heartbreak into healing andsurvival into strength.
As Brene Brown says,vulnerability is the last thing
(46:16):
we want to show, but the firstthing we look for in others.
That's what this is all aboutreal people showing up, sharing
their stories, and reminding therest of us that we're not alone.
If this episode resonated withyou, share it with someone who
might need to hear it too.
And remember, you have a choicebetter or better.
See you next time for more realstories, real people, and real
(46:40):
resilience
Welcome to Bitter or Better, Real Stories of Divorce
and Resilience, the podcast thatgets real about the messy middle
of divorce and what it takes tocome out stronger on the other
side.
I'm your host, Abby England,marketer, national board
certified health and wellnesscoach, and author of the
upcoming book, Bitter or Better,and I've personally earned my
(00:21):
divorce Kevlar.
This podcast isn't legal advice.
It isn't tips and tricks anddon't forgets and hacks and
how-tos.
There's plenty of other podcastsout there, interviewing lawyers,
therapists, accountants, allsorts of divorce scientists.
This podcast is raw, realconversations with everyday
(00:42):
people who have jobs, kids,responsibilities, commitments,
and yet they've weathered theheartbreak, rebuilt their lives,
and found unexpected strengthalong the way.
Because while divorce can breakyou, it can also make you
better.
You are not alone.
Let's hear someone else's storyand see what resonates.
If you would, please interviewyour or interview.
(01:04):
Here we go.
I can do that.
If you would, please introduceyourself to our listeners.
I'm Monica Parker.
Can you say anything else?
No, that's yeah, that's great.
And we know each other justthrough life.
Yes.
Uh huh.
Yeah.
And it seems like after we met,I just kept seeing you at random
places, which is it's I thinkthat's how Atlanta works.
(01:26):
That's true.
A little bit of serendipitythere, too, I think.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I don't know much aboutyour story.
Um that when we met for coffeethat first time, um, the topic
of divorce came up.
And so I was like, oh, Idefinitely want to talk more
with Monica about her story.
Because you have an interestinglife story as well.
(01:48):
And so please interweave thatinto our conversation.
Sure.
But first, I don't know you thatwell.
You don't know any of ourlisteners.
Oh, why on earth did you agreeto sit down with a mere stranger
and tell this chapter of yourlife?
(02:09):
Well, I thought about it fromthe perspective of when I was
going through my divorce.
I felt very alone.
And I think this is a helpfulway to share with other people
that they're not alone.
They're not the only ones goingthrough this.
I think, too, I also felt likeit was never going to end.
And so now being on the otherside of it, I wanted to be a
(02:30):
voice in the wilderness, so tospeak, for people who are in the
thick of it.
Okay.
Sounds like we're gonna have along story here today.
It felt like it was never gonnaend.
Yes.
Um, so maybe let's rewind theclock.
How did you guys meet?
What attracted you to eachother?
What was the marriage like?
(02:50):
Kind of take us through thosebeginning chapters.
Okay.
And I'll say too, I may forgetall of the questions.
So let me do the first one andthen you can tell me what the
episode's worth.
That's that menopausal memoryloss creeping in there.
Let's see.
So the way we met, I had a bookpublished and I decided to throw
a party to celebrate.
My event planner asked me if shecould invite single guys to
(03:13):
attend.
I was single at the time.
I said, sure, great idea.
She invited this guy, and itturns out another friend of mine
who was at the party knew him aswell.
And she actually introduced thetwo of us at the party.
We met there and sparks flew andswept me off my feet.
And then maybe four years later,we got married.
Okay, sidebar, publishing a bookis a milestone in and of itself.
(03:36):
What is the name of your book?
The name of the book is TheUnhappy Lawyer Roadmap Defining
Meaningful Work Outside of theLaw.
I am a lawyer by trade, but hadstopped practicing at the time.
And I was a career coach workingwith lawyers who didn't want to
practice but weren't sure whatthey wanted to do.
So the book was an outcome ofthat work and it was super
exciting to be published forsure.
Okay, so you had this kind oflaunch party for the book, and
(03:59):
then you met this man and sparksflew, as you put it.
So what happened next?
Yeah.
So we dated, as I said, for asignificant period of time.
I would say there were manythings about him that attracted
me to him, from his sense ofhumor to this charisma that he
had.
He came across as a gentlegiant, just a thoughtful person,
(04:23):
a good listener, just someone Icould feel safe and secure with.
And I was excited that I foundhim.
I was close to 40 at that pointand wondering if I'd ever meet
anyone that I wanted to marry.
And it felt a bit like, okay,this was meant to be.
We met through my book party.
And so we had a really fun timedating.
(04:43):
And again, it just seemed likehe was the one.
So eventually we got married.
So you get married.
What is the marriage like?
And maybe take us throughlogistically, where are you?
Yeah.
So we were living in Atlanta,Georgia at the time, and I owned
a condo.
And so he moved into my condo.
(05:04):
And I would say we had thatinitial honeymoon period.
Things were good.
But I noticed over time that weseemed to go through these
phases.
There were phases where thingswere great.
We were clicking on allcylinders.
We communicated well, we laughedtogether, just had a very good
partnership.
(05:24):
And then there were these othertimes where it felt like we just
weren't on the same page.
And I came to realize that hewas emotionally disconnecting
during those times.
And emotional connection isreally important to me.
And I'm very sensitive to it.
So I was noticing thathappening.
And then I noticed over time Iwas getting more and more
(05:44):
anxious about that.
When was that going to happen?
If we were in a good phase, whenwas the bad phase going to come?
And was there anything I coulddo so that it wouldn't happen?
So I got very caught up intrying to predict when those
times would happen.
And again, was there somethingthat I was doing to cause them?
And it just kept happening.
(06:05):
And it seemed as if over time wewere having more and more of
those bad phases.
You can say pass to any questionhere.
I'm curious if you're willing toshare a little bit more about
what these bad times were like.
Sure.
And again, this might be helpfulfor a listener.
(06:26):
Essentially, something wouldhappen.
I would do something.
And again, it wasn't that it wasalways the same thing.
Maybe I forgot to do somethingor neglected to listen at a time
that he felt was important.
What he would do is he wouldgive me the silent treatment,
essentially.
He would disappear into his ownworld, into another room, or he
(06:46):
would leave the home.
I would notice that he wasconnecting with his friends or
his family, but we weren'texperiencing that same kind of
connection.
And then eventually that phasewould pass and he'd be back to
normal, his normal, happy,good-humored self.
But that's what was happening isthose periods of silent
treatment.
And so it felt a punishment forsomething, but I didn't know
what it was specifically that Iwas doing, or even if I tried
(07:09):
doing things differently, itdidn't seem to help.
Okay.
It sounds a bit like walking oneggshells, or how how might you
describe it?
It's not a bit.
It's absolutely walking oneggshells.
Yes, that was my experience forthe the period of time that we
were married.
And even really in hindsightprior to the marriage, that was
(07:31):
happening when we were dating aswell.
I just couldn't see it.
What then eventually happened orcame to light that kind of
brought the D-word in into theconversation?
There were a couple of thingsthat I think were catalysts for
it.
I had started seeing acounselor.
We were also doing marriagecounseling, but I was seeing a
(07:53):
counselor independently.
And in that time, the two of ushad decided, my husband and I,
that we were going to movesomewhere else.
We wanted to move to a differentpart of the country.
I had applied for a position inSeattle, Washington, and
received an offer for theposition.
And we decided we would move toSeattle.
(08:14):
Prior to doing that, I had onelast meeting with the counselor.
And she said, I'm going torecommend a book for you.
She said, You may not be readyfor it now, but might be
something that you want to readat some point.
I said, Okay, what is it?
She said, It's called NecessaryEndings.
And I knew what she was saying.
Perhaps I'd want to read thisbook and consider a necessary
ending with my husband.
(08:35):
I was not ready for that.
So I just wrote the book titledown and took it away with me
when I moved to Seattle.
So that was the first thing.
I think the second thing,though, and this was really
important, is that my thenhusband had a business here in
Atlanta.
So his plan was to go back andforth between Atlanta and
Seattle.
So I moved.
(08:56):
And within that first month ofbeing on my own across country,
it was almost like a lightswitch had flipped on.
And I realized that I was in anunhealthy marriage and that it
wasn't going to change, which isalso when I did read the book
Necessary Endings and realizedthat I've been relying on hope
that things would change.
And the authors talked about howhope is not a strategy that you
(09:20):
actually need to see someprogress.
And I wasn't seeing that in themarriage, in spite of marriage
counseling, all the things thatI had tried to do.
And so that propelled me todecide to file for divorce.
So having that space, your alonetime to think and process and
read these materials, a lightswitch went on.
(09:42):
Yeah.
And I do think what you'resaying is correct.
I think having that space, thatdistance, allowed me to see the
marriage for what it actuallywas.
I'm not sure I would have beenable to do that if I had stayed
in Atlanta and we had beenliving together at the time.
I think I did need to moveacross country and have space to
myself to realize what I was in.
So through the space and timethat you had with yourself, you
(10:07):
realized he's not going tochange.
What was the next step then?
The next step was filing fordivorce.
And that means, of course,getting an attorney.
I knew from my research that Ineeded to find an attorney in
the Atlanta area that I need tofile for divorce there.
And this same counselor had whohad been such a resource for me,
(10:28):
was someone that I reached outto at that time, and she
recommended a local attorney,Damon Bivick.
I think it's Bivek and Brubaker.
Or Brew Baker and Vivek.
And so that was the first step.
I should say actually there wasa step before that, of course.
You don't just file for divorce.
You have to decide that's whatyou're going to do.
(10:50):
And I thought about it.
I'm a Christian, so I prayedabout it.
And it wasn't something that Iever anticipated that I would be
doing.
But again, when I realized thatthe marriage was unhealthy and
that it wasn't going to change,that it was impacting me in very
negative ways.
And the only way I was going tobe able to move forward was to
(11:11):
extricate myself, then that'show I made the decision.
I also did have a conversationwith my then husband about the
fact that I was going to filefor divorce.
As you can imagine, that did notgo well.
He asked me to think about it toreconsider, and I had made up my
mind by that point.
That is when I reached out to mycounselor, got a recommendation
(11:31):
for an attorney, and contactedthe attorney to begin the
process.
Probably a cocktail of feelings.
What were some of those?
There was a lot of fear, fear ofhow my then husband might react,
(11:55):
fear of what this process ofdivorce was going to be like,
what was going to be involved,fear of what it would be like to
be on my own again, because thatwasn't something that I had
anticipated.
I think a lot of fear of theunknown.
There was also some I think youclassified as a feeling.
(12:16):
There was some curiosity, Ithink, about what life would be
like after.
Because again, I knew it wasn'thealthy.
I knew that it was a necessarystep for me to take.
And so I suspected that thingscould be good on the other side
of it, but that's all I knew atthat point.
I knew that there was going tobe a long, painful journey
(12:37):
ahead.
But I was curious.
And I was also a bit relieved.
Once you make that decisionabout something that's really
hard and really painful, but youfinally decide, okay, I'm gonna
do, I'm gonna do this.
There is that sense of relief.
I remember feeling that.
Thank you for sharing thatpre-step.
Yeah, because it doesn't justhappen.
(12:57):
What did you maybe have to do orget in order your ducks in a row
in order to file for divorce?
There's this whole process ofgetting a sense of your
finances, your finances, yourjoint finances.
I don't think I know anybody whothinks that's fun.
(13:17):
That was really stressful too.
One of the things that came upis that when I told my then
husband I wanted to file fordivorce, that's when he told me
that he hadn't filed our taxes.
The twist.
There's the twist.
There's the plot twist.
Yes.
So on top of navigating adivorce, I also had to figure
(13:39):
out what to do about the taxsituation.
You mentioned the life elements.
I should say that at that sametime I had moved to Seattle for
a new position.
At that point, I was notpracticing law, but I was
working on the administrativeside at a large law firm.
And that position turned out notto be a good fit for me.
So I had moved across thecountry.
(14:01):
I didn't know anyone there.
I had a job that wasn't workingout.
And now I had a marriage thatwasn't working out.
So it was a really difficulttime.
And then to add on that, thispiece about, oh, I didn't pay
our taxes.
It was a really stressful timein my life.
Yeah.
The word that's coming up for meis isolated.
(14:23):
Yes.
I was very isolated.
And something interestinghappens when you file for
divorce.
I don't know if this is true foreveryone, but I do feel like
I've talked to a number ofwomen, friends, and otherwise
who've been through divorce.
And it sounds like it might be acommon theme, which is even if
I'd been in Atlanta, there'ssomething about the stigma of
(14:45):
going through a divorce thatcauses people to withdraw.
So, in other words, thefriendships and relationships
that you have, those aren'tthings that you can always
maintain in the midst of adivorce for whatever reason.
Um, I do think that sometimespeople are worried that your
divorce might rub off on them.
It's contagious.
(15:06):
So they keep their distance.
But yeah, I had an additionalelement of isolation because I
had moved across country anddidn't know anyone there.
Uh, so the question was, how wasI going to take care of myself
when I didn't have my usualsupport system?
I did have my family, of course.
They didn't live nearby, butthey were definitely a source of
support for me at the time.
(15:28):
Thank you for opening up andbeing vulnerable about that and
sharing this is the context ofmy life.
And a divorce sucks in and ofitself, but then when you layer
on these other things thatyou're talking about, it is like
exponential.
Yeah, it was a bit much in anunderstated British kind of way.
(15:53):
And the mission and purpose ofthis podcast is to help people
feel like they're not alone.
Um, even in maybe a similarsituation where they're feeling
isolated, but they can put on apodcast and hear other people's
stories of divorce andresilience and coming out better
(16:15):
on the other side.
So I hope that it instills asense of hope in them.
So you're in Seattle, you've gotthis cocktail of feelings and
emotions.
What tools did you utilize tohelp you get through the hardest
of days?
(16:35):
That's a great question.
One of the things that Irealized pretty quickly is that
if I didn't have connections orgenuine connections in Seattle,
that meant that in addition tofeeling isolated, I was also
feeling that physically.
So not just emotionally, butphysically.
(16:57):
And it occurred to me that I waslacking in touch.
In other words, I wasn't near myfamily, so I couldn't get a hug
from my parents or my brothers.
I didn't have any friends, so Icouldn't get hugs from friends.
A little odd to ask yourcoworkers for hugs.
Lawyers.
These are lawyers.
Yeah, that's not really so oneof the things I did early on was
(17:17):
to schedule weekly massages.
And I was fortunate theyactually were covered by my
health insurance.
But that was a tremendous sourceof support for me early on, just
to go in and have someone workon my body.
It helped with touch, obviously.
(17:38):
It helped with stress, it helpedwith tension, and it was a
wonderful human connection thatI didn't have otherwise.
I don't even know what made medecide to do it initially, but I
did realize very early on thatthere are those studies they did
however many years ago aboutnewborn babies needing touch in
(18:01):
the hospital and how they died,unfortunately, when they weren't
getting that.
And it occurred to me thatwouldn't just be babies, that
would be anyone of any age.
So that was one of the firstthings I did that was super
helpful.
And I looked forward to those.
The massage therapist was awonderful person.
She had a great sense of humor.
She knew what I was goingthrough.
(18:22):
And so I really um lookedforward to those weekly massage
therapy sessions.
That is such a great tip.
Oh, good.
That's such a good tip.
What what else did you utilizeand lean into?
I am an avid reader.
Uh I I have always been an avidreader.
In addition to that book,Necessary Endings, I started
(18:42):
looking for other books thatcould help me through this time.
And this one is very specific,but it may be helpful to some of
your listeners.
It occurred to me that, ofcourse, there were things that I
could work on, right, in thecontext of being in
relationship.
There was work I needed to do onmyself, and I did feel like
(19:02):
there was something veryparticular about my then
husband.
I started doing some researchand I found this book called The
Sociopath Next Door.
Okay.
And when I read it, again, I'm alay person, I'm not a
psychologist or therapist orcounselor, but I did see a lot
(19:23):
of parallels between thedescription of a sociopath and
my then husband.
And oddly enough, that wasreassuring because the book
talked about how sociopaths tendto find not weak people, but
people who are loyal and who arestrong and who can be a source
(19:45):
of support for that person.
And that helped comfort mebecause I wondered if maybe this
was just about me.
Like maybe I was a weak personand it was easy for someone to
latch on.
And the book talked about no,actually, sociopaths tend to be
very charismatic and can fooljust about anyone, from the
layperson to a psychologist, atherapist.
(20:07):
And when I thought back to ourcounseling sessions, I thought,
you know what?
I think that was happening inthose sessions.
I think he was charming thecounselor as well.
So that book was a reallyhelpful support for me.
I don't know for sure if myex-husband is a sociopath, but
he certainly demonstrated someof those tendencies.
Reading was a huge um source ofsupport for me, whether it was a
(20:32):
book about the dynamics ofrelationships or or even just
something for fun.
I love mysteries.
I was definitely indulging in alot of mystery reading at the
time.
Even reading for fun, like totake you out of because some
days it's about survival.
It is.
Yeah.
It is.
It is just about can I getthrough this day and reading or
(20:55):
a massage or going for a walk bythe water?
Seattle's surrounded by water.
So that was another beautifulaspect of being there.
In fact, I met a consultantthrough work who I developed a
friendship with, and he told methat Seattle is often a place of
rebirth for people.
(21:15):
So he said, it's not surprisingyou found your way here, found
yourself getting a divorce, andsome people fall in love with
Seattle and stay.
And for others, it's just aphase of their life where they
are going through that process.
So yeah, walks by the water,movies, to your point about
being able to escape from yourlife for an hour or two.
Movies are an hour now.
(21:35):
So 90 minutes, two hours, twoand a half.
A great way to take a break fromreality.
So those things are reallyhelpful.
The initial big challenge wasserving my then husband.
You have to serve them in orderto file for divorce.
And he was dodging the processserver.
(21:56):
I remember being in the officeat work, I was in a Meeting and
I saw that my attorney wascalling, so I excused myself and
went in the hallway.
My attorney said we tried toserve him again, maybe the third
or fourth time.
Wow.
He said we couldn't get to him.
And I remember thinking, I don'tthink I'm gonna make it.
We can't even serve him.
I don't know what else to do.
(22:17):
I I can't make this happen.
It has to happen.
I don't know.
I don't know if I can survivethis.
Fortunately, it was maybe thenext week.
My attorney called laughing.
He said, We got him.
I said, How did you get him?
He said, He's still living inyour condo.
He said, and oddly enough, hesaid, while we were there, the
(22:42):
fire alarm went off.
And everyone came out onto thefront patio of the building.
And he came out and we servedhim.
And I thought, Providence.
So that was the first bigchallenge.
Now, once once we got into thethick of the divorce
proceedings, it really was thefinancial piece.
(23:02):
As I said, even when you want toblame this person that you're
with for everything, there arethings that you have to learn
about yourself, and there areways that you have to grow and
develop.
And so I needed to work on how Ihandled money.
And in the context of thisrelationship, neither of us was
that great at handling money.
And so he definitely added somefinancial challenges to our
(23:25):
relationship.
And he wasn't particularlyinterested in resolving them.
So that fell to me.
And so we didn't have assets.
We didn't have children, which Ido think was a blessing in this
case.
We just had debt.
And that proved to be thesticking point in getting to a
resolution with the divorcebecause I wasn't particularly
(23:48):
interested in taking on more ofhis debt than I thought would be
fair.
So the divorce dragged on forseveral months.
In Georgia, I'm assuming it'sstill the same case.
You can be divorced within amonth.
It took several months for us tofinally get to a resolution on
that.
So that was very stressful.
(24:08):
My personal divorce process, Ifiled in uh February of 2023,
and I got my final divorcedecree, Labor Day weekend of
2024.
So it took a little longer thana few months.
But we went through a fulldiscovery and all of that fun
stuff.
Yes.
All the joy.
Yeah.
(24:29):
It I think it took, it's beenseveral years now since I've
been divorced.
So I think it took about 10months total.
Okay.
So, you know, in the scheme ofthings, not a long time, but
when you think it's only goingto take a month, 10 months feels
like a lifetime.
And also remember, and you knowthis, when you're in the middle
of it, you don't know when it'sgoing to end.
So you're going from month tomonth thinking, is this the
(24:50):
month?
No, it's not.
Is this the month?
No, it's not.
And so you do begin to wonder,will it ever end?
Yeah.
And then when it does end,you're like, whoa, it's over.
This weird purgatory I've beenin is over.
That's a weird space too, forsure.
I remember when my attorneycalled and said it was all said
(25:11):
and done.
I was actually in New York forwork, and I took myself out to
dinner.
I just remember sitting therethinking, this is weird.
Of course, I was happy becauseit had been so stressful for
such a long time, but it alsofelt weird.
You spend a lot of energy duringthe divorce, and there's also a
(25:32):
lot of for me, there's a lot ofanger and frustration and
sadness and just outrage.
And then all of a sudden, it'sover.
And then you're left with thiswhat felt to me like an empty
space.
What do you do with that?
And I knew I didn't want to fillit with bitterness.
So then it was, what do I donow?
Sure.
(25:53):
Yeah, definitely a weird time,but a joyous time too.
And you're how many years outare you from your divorce?
I am now eight years out.
Eight years out.
Okay.
And you've curated a whole otherlife for yourself that we're
definitely going to talk aboutbecause I'm sure it uh I'm sure
you wouldn't get there orwouldn't be where you are
(26:16):
without going through andstepping on these stones.
But if you could go back andhave a conversation with the
Monica who was just trudgingthrough those hard days, what
would you tell her now?
I think probably the mostimportant thing I'd say to
myself is you did the best youcould with what you knew at the
(26:40):
time.
Because I did spend a lot oftime beating myself up during
the divorce process, after thedivorce for several years.
How did you end up in thissituation?
Why did you marry someone likethat?
What does that say about you?
And I realized over time thatall I was doing was beating
myself up and really beatingmyself bloody, frankly.
(27:01):
That wasn't helpful.
And so I had to come to termswith the fact that I had chosen
this person, fallen in love withthis person, married this
person, and then eventuallyneeded to divorce this person.
And I did the best I could withwhat I knew at the time.
And that has given me some senseof peace over the years.
You mentioned a little bit aboutthe tools and strategies that
(27:24):
you utilized.
This podcast also has a healthand wellness lens to it.
I'm curious, how did youprioritize and maintain your
health of being during thistime?
I think there were two criticalthings that I did.
The first is because it was sucha challenging financial
(27:45):
situation, I ended up finding amoney coach.
SPEAKER_01 (27:47):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:48):
Her name's Michael Ann Valtera, and she's based in
Seattle, but she works withclients anywhere.
I had this sense that, yes, ofcourse, the finances of the
divorce, my relationship, thatthose are going to be
challenging.
But I knew there was somethingmore there.
There was work that I needed todo personally about that.
And Michael Ann is very skilledat working with women who find
(28:13):
themselves in the position ofwondering what's going on with
them and their money.
And she helped me to do somework around my own money
autobiography.
What did I learn about moneygrowing up?
How did I treat money over theyears?
And then, of course, she alsohelped me navigate the financial
difficulties of the divorce.
(28:33):
So she helped me put together amoney plan so I knew where my
money was going and where Iwanted it to go over time.
And this did take a lot of time,but over several years, she
helped me to create a plan toget out of debt, which I was
able to achieve.
And she helped me to findfinancial peace, which so that
was a critical part of myjourney during that time.
(28:57):
The second thing I did, becauseI love to read, my sister-in-law
recommended this book called TheLife Changing Magic of Tidying
Up by Marie Kondo.
And just a funny little aside,when she first told me about it,
it was a New York Timesbestseller.
And I thought, I'm not gonnaread that.
Like, I'm not reading it becauseeverybody else is reading it.
I don't read books that everyoneelse is reading.
(29:18):
I'm not a sheep.
The funny part is I ended upgoing to a bookstore.
I spent a lot of time inbookstores, and there it was,
sitting on the shelf, staring atme.
Prominently.
It was staring at me on theshelf in the midst of all these
other books.
I picked it up, I browsed it, Ibought it, I brought it home,
and I read it that night.
(29:39):
Marie talks about doing a tidingfestival.
So essentially, where you'regoing through your home and you
are identifying what sparks joy,and then you're thanking and
letting go of things that don't.
And so I took myself through atiding festival.
I had a three-day weekend comingup, and I just spent that
weekend going through everythingin my home.
(29:59):
And it was a huge source ofsupport for me too, right?
Making sure that my space wascomforting, nurturing, joyful,
peaceful, all those things thatI was looking for in my life.
And it was a bit of aforeshadowing because
eventually, a few years later, Ifound out that Marie Kondo was
(30:20):
teaching other people how to useher methodology.
So I went through hercertification program and became
a certified Kanmari consultant.
And then fast forward a fewyears later, I decided to start
a professional organizingbusiness.
And so that's what I do now.
I work with women who are busyand overwhelmed by the state of
their homes to help themdeclutter and organize so they
(30:42):
can have space to exhale andrelax in their homes.
And I find, I was gonna sayoddly enough, but I don't think
it's so odd, actually, that thewomen who tend to be my clients
are often in major transitionsthemselves, whether it's divorce
or a midlife career transitionor empty nest, ooh,
paramenopause or menopause,those are the women who tend to
(31:03):
find me.
All those years ago, this bookthat I was resistant to and then
read ended up changing my lifein a number of fundamental ways.
But at the time, that was atremendous source of support.
Thank you for sharing that.
Let's go down a bit of a tangenthere because I'm curious, you've
worked with a number of clients.
What connection do you seebetween tidying up and
(31:29):
organization and one's healthand being?
Yeah, it's an interesting kindof connection.
It may not be very obvious,right?
Because particularly if you'respending time on, well, let's
say Instagram and you're seeinglike beautifully color-coded
shelves or something, that'sgreat if that's important to
you.
But it's more about when you aregoing through your things one by
(31:52):
one, you are actuallyindividually examining what's
going on in your life as well.
And again, I I won't claim thatthere are specific studies that
show ties between, say, yourhealth and or your physical
health and your clutter.
But what I can tell you is thatthere are studies that show that
for women specifically, clutterraises our cortisol levels.
(32:16):
And the converse of that is ifyou can tidy your home, then you
can lower your cortisol levelsand you can be more at peace.
I've had many sort ofconversations with women who
laugh about the differencebetween them and their husbands,
how their husbands will oftennot even see the clutter that's
in front of them, will stepright over it.
Whereas the wife is, what isthis?
(32:37):
So I think I know there'ssomething to that.
I would say that for women intransition in particular,
there's something magical aboutgoing through all the things
that you've acquired over theyears.
It could be that there's someanalysis that needs to happen,
some reflection around how thosethings ended up in your life and
(32:57):
are you ready to let go of them?
Because by doing so, you'remaking space for what's new.
And so my clients oftenexperience it as a lift, a
lightning of their being.
You're lifting this weight offof their shoulders and making
space, this open space forwhat's next.
So it's more of a maybe a mentalhealth benefit in that sense.
(33:18):
Yeah.
Just speaking from my ownexperience, moving from a 5,500
square foot house to then a1,200 square, maybe 1100 square
foot apartment in executivehousing.
So none of the stuff wasactually ours.
And then moving to 750 squarefeet apartment in Atlanta, which
(33:43):
is just as expensive as my 5,500square foot house in Arkansas.
But anyway, I realized I don'tneed all this stuff.
The more space I have, the moreI feel like it needs to be
filled with things.
And I don't need any of it.
It's a big realization, I think.
(34:04):
I have clients who come to meand say, Oh, are you going to
make me get rid of everything?
Do I have to be a minimalist?
And my response to that is, ofcourse not.
It's just a question of, does itspark joy?
And if it does, it stays.
And if it doesn't, you thank itand you let it go.
And there are people who will besuper excited to get those
things that you let go.
(34:25):
Those things will spark joy forsomeone else.
But me personally, I think I'msimilar to you in that I don't
need all those things.
And I like having spaciousness,I like having that openness
because that helps me continueto cultivate curiosity about
what's next and leaving spacefor lots of lovely things to
enter my life.
Let's, okay, let's.
(34:46):
That's a great segue.
Um, lovely things to enter yourlife.
What, you know, as you kind ofreflect back, personal insights
and learnings, what values maybecrystallized for you as a result
of going through the DevOps?
(35:08):
That's a good question, too.
And you're reminding me thatpart of what was helpful in
determining the values thatemerge from this, in addition to
working with the money coach, isworking with a therapist.
So I did extensive work with atherapist one-on-one and then
also, or eventually joined awomen's group led by a
therapist.
(35:29):
And what I saw through thatexperience was just how
resilient I am.
Because, like I said early on,when you're going through this,
you might think it's never goingto end and I can't make it.
The truth is, you actually can.
You can make it and you can comeout of it better off.
And that something I'm reallyproud about, the fact that I
(35:50):
survived it and have come out ofit in a much better, brighter
place than I ever could haveimagined.
But resilience is somethingthat's important to me because I
recognize it's not just divorce,right?
We all go through difficultthings in life and we'll
continue to do so.
And so the resilience that Ideveloped by going through this
process will help me throughthose other tough times as well.
I think also mentioned this afew times, curiosity.
(36:13):
And what I mean about that ismaintaining a sense of wonder
about the world and aboutpeople, because it is very easy
to find yourself feeling bitterafter an experience like
divorce.
And I'm not perfect by anystretch of the imagination.
I definitely was bitter for aperiod of time.
I was sad and anxious anddepressed.
Oh, forgot to mention, inaddition to all the other things
(36:36):
that were going on, uh, I wasgoing through perimenopause.
Oh.
So your internal and yourexternal worlds were all just
like a hot mess.
It was a I it was a hot mess.
I was a hot mess.
So I think too, beingresourceful is of an important
value.
And part and parcel of that, Ithink, is how do I put this?
Is knowing this won't be oneword as a value, but knowing
(36:59):
what I couldn't handle and whereI needed support.
Rather than saying, I will dothis all by myself, I will
figure this out, recognizingactually I can't do this by
myself.
That's why I need a therapist,or that's why I need a money
coach, or that's why, yes,Seattle is a hard place to make
friends.
So I think resourcefulness wasanother big part of it.
And then, like I said, justknowing what my limits were and
(37:21):
where I needed support.
You mentioned coming up betteron the other side.
What gifts or opportunities didyour divorce bring you?
It's interesting.
I was talking to someone aboutthis yesterday, actually.
What I said was I wouldn't wishthis on anybody.
And I wish there's a part of methat wishes it had never
(37:43):
happened, right?
That I could rewind and meet himat the party and recognize, no,
step away from that.
I didn't and I can't.
These things have happened.
I do think that going throughthis helps you develop
compassion.
Say more about that.
Yeah, I think um it can be whenthings are going well for you,
(38:05):
you can just give yourself a lotof credit for that fact.
When things go wrong, yourealize that you don't have
control over everything andthings are going to happen to
you that you didn't plan.
And I think now, maybe this is aproduct of age and wisdom too.
I can see others going throughthis experience and know what
(38:27):
it's like and feel compassionfor them as opposed to being
judgmental about it.
I think sometimes folks are veryjudgmental about divorce and
people going through it and willsay things like, When my day
people didn't get divorced, andpeople seem to lack commitment
these days.
And I'm what I'm thinking is youhave no idea what's going on in
(38:48):
someone's marriage.
Yeah.
And I remember reading this whenI was going through divorce and
sticking with me.
And it was something about howwhen someone's going through a
divorce, the temptation is tosay, when you hear is to say,
Oh, I'm so sorry.
When it might be better whenthey tell you that they're
divorced to say,congratulations.
(39:08):
You don't know.
Yeah.
Because in fact, by the timesomeone's made the decision to
get a divorce and then goesthrough that process, they are
ready to be on the other side ofit.
So a congratulations actuallymakes a lot more sense.
So yeah, I I resonate with whatyou're saying around compassion.
I don't feel I was a verycompassionate person before this
(39:30):
or empathetic.
It was very career corporatedriven.
And like the deadline is thedeadline no matter what.
And me personally, I would stayup all night, do all-nighters to
hit the deadline.
And now going through thisprocess, life happens, and
there's no, we don't live ourlives in compartments, our
(39:54):
personal lives, our professionallives, stress in one area is
going to bleed over into theother.
And you just never know whatkind of day someone is having
because of the context of theirpersonal lives.
And so I just I think I'm lessjudgmental, I'm more
(40:15):
compassionate, I'm moreempathetic to what people are
going through, which is a lovelygift, I think.
And yeah, I think for those ofus who are achievement driven,
we know what it takes, we'rewilling to put in the effort,
and we expect to see results.
(40:36):
And we often do.
But as you've pointed out, thereare times when life happens and
you don't have control overthat.
And then it's ridiculous topresume that anyone else has
control over everything in theirlives as well.
And I think that is a majorrealization that leads to that
compassion, that empathy thatyou're talking about.
(40:56):
It could happen to anyone, andit does happen to a lot of
people.
So, and our kind of last fewquestions here, what would you
want others to take away fromhearing your story?
I want to circle back to what wetalked about at the beginning,
which is that if you are feelingalone, if you're feeling like
(41:17):
I'm the only person this ishappening to, you're not.
I hate to say misery lovescompany, but that might be true.
And you're not alone.
I remember when I filed fordivorce and finally got up the
courage to tell my friends inAtlanta, I heard so many stories
(41:37):
about their own experiences ofdivorce or friends of theirs who
went through divorce.
Same with the folks I startedmeeting in Seattle.
And it helped me realize thatI'm not the only person who's
experienced this.
And that was really comfortingto me, I think.
The other thing that I wouldrepeat is that you will get
(42:00):
through it.
It will come to an end.
Because, like I said, in myexperience, I thought I was
going to be done in about amonth.
And instead, it was justdragging on month to month, and
you think I'm never going to getout of this, particularly if
it's a complex divorce wherethere are children, where there
are assets.
It can feel like it's neverending, but I promise you it
will come to an end.
(42:20):
And also that when it comes toan end, if you feel like I did
where it felt a bit unsettlingand you thought, oh, I thought I
was going to feel like amazing.
And you don't feel amazing, giveit some time because it takes
time to make that transition.
Yes, the divorce is finalized,but the transition to being on
your own again and feeling goodin your skin again will take
(42:45):
some time as well.
But that will come.
I'm a very impatient person.
So I think if I heard that, Imight be like, oh, I can do
better.
I can, again, I'm achievingoriented, I can make this
happen.
You can try that.
But if you notice that's notworking, just know that cliches
exist for a reason.
Time does heal all wounds.
Yeah.
(43:06):
Once you felt, I don't know,maybe vulnerable to open up to
your friends and colleaguesaround what was going on, what
you got back was um equalvulnerability and them sharing
their stories.
For sure.
And I was also mad, I'll justsay that, because I thought,
(43:26):
hey, man, why didn't you sharethis?
Like when I was struggling in mymarriage.
And I think they're, I don'tknow.
I don't know if it's that peoplewant to keep those things
private, and that's okay too,right?
You're not required to share allof your life with someone else,
your friends.
But there was something aboutsaying that I was filing for
(43:48):
divorce that allowed people toopen up in a way that they
hadn't done before.
But yeah, that was reallyhelpful because I think I'd
built this story in my headabout how I.
should be how my life should beand to find that others didn't
have a perfect life meant it wasokay for me not to have a
perfect life.
So it was very reassuring, yes.
(44:10):
Yeah.
The mission purpose of thepodcast that network is so
important to have friends andfamily to be your support
network.
Should one not have that or justnot feel comfortable, hopefully
podcasts like this can help themfeel that their feelings are
(44:31):
valid and they're not alone.
For sure.
I would say find a therapist,find a support group, but in the
middle of the night when youwake up and it's just you,
essentially this podcast is likea voice in the wilderness,
right?
It's that light that people needto know that yeah to know that
(44:52):
they're not alone because you'renot I would love for you to
share because you work withclients virtually as well.
And so should a listener beinterested in tidying up,
organizing, maybe resetting thispart of their lives, how can
they get in touch with you?
Yeah, the best way to reach meis by email at monicarparker at
(45:14):
gmail.com.
Don't forget the R.
I work with clients in person inthe Atlanta metro area and
virtually if you're anywhereelse.
People just have this sense thatif they were to go through their
belongings, sort what they need,what they want, what supports
them and let go of the rest thatit will somehow help them in
their divorce transition, that'sa good reason to reach out to me
(45:36):
or someone like me to help you.
So yeah, I'm happy to help inthat regard.
Great.
I'm I hope that someonelistening reaches out because it
sounds like it really can betherapeutic as part of the
process.
I think that's right.
That's a great word.
It's not therapy but it istherapeutic.
Cathartic.
Yeah.
Monica, thank you so much forbeing here today.
(45:56):
Really appreciate you sharingyour story and vulnerably
opening up and sharing kind ofthe good, the bad and the ugly.
Absolutely.
Thank you for having me.
Thanks for listening to Bitteror Better, where we turn
heartbreak into healing andsurvival into strength.
As Brene Brown says,vulnerability is the last thing
(46:16):
we want to show, but the firstthing we look for in others.
That's what this is all aboutreal people showing up, sharing
their stories, and reminding therest of us that we're not alone.
If this episode resonated withyou, share it with someone who
might need to hear it too.
And remember, you have a choicebetter or better.
See you next time for more realstories, real people, and real
(46:40):
resilience
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