March 5, 2026 • 50 mins
A whisper at 4:30 a.m., a drive to the gym, and a truth that splits a life in two. Lauren takes us through the raw, human reality of discovering not one but two affairs, both with close friends, and the slow, steady climb toward a healthier future for herself and her kids. We start with young love and a faith-filled home, then move through IVF, adoption, and the first shock of betrayal. What follows is a masterclass in hard choices: how to attempt forgiveness, recognize red flags, and decide when a marriage has crossed the line from wounded to unsafe.
As the story deepens, we unpack the second discovery, the hidden messages, the canceled plans, the moment everything clicks, and the courage it takes to keep a promise to yourself. With a skilled therapist’s guidance, Lauren confronts narcissism, names patterns, and weighs two doors: stay and expect more of the same, or leave and reclaim agency. We dig into the unglamorous legal grind, discovery delays, business finances, and why a great attorney and a forensic CPA can protect your future when emotions run high. Along the way, she builds stability for her kids with therapy, consistent routines, and even a shared family dog to anchor transitions.
What truly transforms this story is how Lauren rebuilds from the inside out. Group fitness becomes medicine. Prayer becomes a compass. Boundaries become love in action. And when she starts dating again, she finds a partnership grounded in respect, curiosity, and mutual standards, a contrast that reframes the past without bitterness. If you’re navigating betrayal, divorce, or co-parenting, you’ll leave with practical tools and a deeper kind of hope: choose the path that teaches your kids what love should feel like, and take one honest step at a time.
If this conversation resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs it, and leave a review to help others find their own path from bitter to better.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
Welcome to Better or Better.
Real stories of the forest ofthe clouds.
The podcast that gets for y'allgot the best metal of the
forest.
And what it's got on the otherside.
(00:56):
You are not alone.
Let's start someone off thestory and see what resonates.
Well, I'm here on location,right outside Austin, Texas,
with a grade school friend.
Yeah, I know.
I feel like we're out ofsleepover.
This is the best.
Kelly Kendall Warren.
Yes.
I mean you know this, but Imoved from private school to
(01:18):
public school in eighth grade,and it was like the scary thing.
And which private school are youat?
I was at Trinity.
Trinity Literature.
SPEAKER_02 (01:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (01:24):
The scariest thing you'll ever do in your life.
Oh, that's what I hear.
SPEAKER_02 (01:28):
Going from from private school to public school.
Yeah.
But you guys were fun.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was fun.
SPEAKER_04 (01:33):
What grade you were in seventh when you moved over?
No, I was I was going intoeighth grade.
Going into eighth grade.
Okay.
All right.
So yeah, middle school.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (01:41):
Yeah, I know.
Look at us.
Look at us as well.
Getting to see you at thereunion.
I know.
It was so fun.
Did you not have the best time?
I had so much fun.
And then I pinged everybody whodidn't go, and I'm like, why
didn't you go?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (01:53):
I know.
I had nervousness about it.
And you went by yourself, right?
And I can not imagine becauseKatie and I went together.
We got there in the pregnantlot, and I was like, we could
just turn around right now.
And nobody would know.
It wouldn't be a big deal.
And my husband was like, Y'allcame for this.
Y'all are y'all can do this.
Let's go.
I'll walk you in.
And I'm so glad.
(02:14):
And I tell all my clients, I'mlike, go.
It's so fun.
It's awkward.
You get nervous.
But everybody feels that way.
Yeah.
And then it's just like oldtimes.
SPEAKER_03 (02:23):
And exactly.
Yeah.
Everyone's just as awkward.
Yeah.
So yeah.
Um that was fun.
Well, before we get into it, canyou go ahead and introduce
yourself?
SPEAKER_04 (02:31):
Yeah, so I'm Lauren and in between Austin and San
Antonio.
I have three of my own children,two stepchildren.
Yeah, I kind of marriedoriginally my high school
sweetheart.
Um, and we'll get into it.
SPEAKER_03 (02:48):
And that that that we will talk about what
happened.
Okay.
Yeah.
I don't know much of your story.
I know like maybe tip of theiceberg.
I don't know much.
So thank you for doing this andbeing vulnerable and sharing.
I always ask people, why onearth would you go back and pick
(03:10):
at the scab that has healed?
Why why open up and share yourstory with others?
SPEAKER_04 (03:17):
You know, and we talked about we're both women of
faith.
I feel like when we go throughthese trials in life, God gets
us through them, or you know,you you get through them, and if
you don't share your experience,I feel like that's the blessing
in all of it is that you thenhave a story to share with
someone else because nothing isworse than going through
(03:37):
something alone.
When you send over ideas aboutwhat you want to talk about, it
was like picking a scab, and Iwas like, oh my gosh, some of
these you block out of yourmemory because it is so hurtful.
But I guess just mainly to letpeople know that you aren't
alone, feelings are normal,they're valid.
And when somebody else canunderstand what you've been
(03:58):
through, it is a game changer.
SPEAKER_03 (04:01):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
When I meet people, even ifthey're strangers, but we
somehow talk about our personallives and they've gone through a
divorce, like it takes arelationship to a whole new
level.
You don't have to say anything,you're just like, I got it.
SPEAKER_02 (04:14):
I I got you, girl.
SPEAKER_03 (04:15):
Yeah, I understand.
Well, thank you.
Yeah, the mission and purpose ofthe podcast is to help people
feel like they're not alone andit sucks, but you will get
through it, and there's two waysto get through it, yeah, you
know, bitter or better.
Yeah, so let's rewind.
You married your high schoolsweetheart.
(04:37):
Yep, you know, describe therelationship and then the
marriage and the family dynamic.
SPEAKER_04 (04:42):
We met originally, I think I was 14 and he was 16,
and then started dating.
So he went to a different highschool, was two years older than
me.
So we started dating my junioryear, his freshman year of
college.
And our families knew eachother.
We were in a small church indifferent locations, but our
(05:04):
families knew each other throughthat.
Started dating when we were 16.
We got married.
Um, I had been 20 for a monthwhen we got married.
SPEAKER_03 (05:12):
I didn't even realize that you guys met in
high school.
Yeah, dated all throughout highschool.
That must be why I don'tremember you dating any boys
from high school.
SPEAKER_04 (05:24):
Yeah, and I still lived it up in high school.
I still felt like I had a it waskind of nice that he was at
college because and he playedbasketball.
So like he was busy in college,and I could be with my friends
and do all that.
But yeah, so we got married whenI was I had been 20 for one
month, and we had babies startedhaving a family.
(05:46):
Um, we we had gone through somemiscarriages, IVF.
So we went through it the firstfive years.
Wow, and then um ended up doingIVF, having my daughter, and
then got married in 2005, 2010.
I had her, then we adopted, andI had and my little sons
adopted.
I didn't know that.
So we did all of that to theseare all very big things that
(06:09):
could be enough in a marriage.
IVF, adoption, all of those ontheir own.
That's enough.
That's more than a lot of peoplehave to go through.
Did IVF again, had my youngestson.
I mean, just to break down, justto get into it, I guess.
After we adopted our son, he wasabout six months old.
(06:33):
My sister was living with us atthe time.
She had gone through a breakupactually and was like, I'm
coming to Tex.
She came here, fell in love withit.
So she lived with us up in theroom up front.
SPEAKER_03 (06:43):
Okay, so you and he moved to Texas together.
SPEAKER_04 (06:46):
We did, yeah.
We moved here right after I hadmy daughter.
She was four months old when wemoved here.
You know, we went through theadoption, my sister moved here,
had a had a new baby that was wehad just adopted, trying to get
into that groove, and he wasn'tlike the easiest baby, so that
was really hard.
I was having a lot of like ummom guilt because I felt like I
(07:07):
mean, he was just kind of a hardbaby, but I felt like it was me
because I should have read morebooks or something on adoption.
I just thought I want to be amom and this will be, you know,
and all just fit in naturally,but it was emotionally harder
than what I thought it would be.
So going through all of that,um, he was probably about six
months old, and then my husbandhad his first affair.
(07:31):
And kind of crazy story, I wokeup in the middle of the night,
or I I guess it was probably notthe middle of the night, I felt
like it.
It was probably about fouro'clock, four thirty in the
morning, and he wasn't home.
And he would get up and go tothe gym every morning, and so I
thought, well, he must have goneto the gym.
And then I'm having all thesethoughts, like, he is so
dedicated.
He gets up and he goes to thegym.
(07:52):
I need to do that more.
I need to find, you know, youhave all these like woman guild,
I guess.
I don't even know that whereyou're just like, I should be
working out, I should be doingthis.
Yeah, shoulds.
Yes, and so I get up with myson, I make him a bottle, I'm
rocking him in his chair, and Iliterally hear a voice in my
head that's because then I'mthinking, well, what?
(08:13):
It's so early.
Wait, what time?
Then I'm like coming into I'mmore awake and I'm like, where
is he?
So I called him a couple times,didn't answer.
Then I am rocking my son and I'mthinking, like, you know,
feeding him his bottle, and I'mlike, man, what in the world?
And I hear a voice in my headsay, Go to the why.
And I'm like, that's crazy.
(08:33):
I mean, by this time it'dprobably been 30 minutes.
I was like, that's crazy.
And it was not my voice, it wasa prompting.
I'm like, that's crazy.
So I, you know, I finish thebottle with my son, I get him
back to bed, which is a process,and I hear again, go to the why
now.
And I'm like, oh my gosh, if hesees me going to the why, I am
(08:57):
gonna look like a psycho.
And I'd had no reason to thinkanything that I need to check up
on him.
No reason.
Great guy, active in church.
I've been with him I felt likemy whole life.
We had a new baby, no reason tothink that.
So then I started thinking,like, well, my sister's here, so
(09:18):
my kids wouldn't be alone.
Yeah, I could take her car, hewouldn't know.
Yeah, like he wouldn't spot it.
I live about two minutes fromthe interstate.
I merge onto the interstatedirectly behind him, driving
down the interstate, rightbehind my car.
And I had a cardinal's a St.
Louis Cardinals thing on my car.
(09:38):
So I knew it was my car.
Yeah.
Because you don't see St.
Louis Cardinals here in themiddle of Texas.
That's right.
So I was like, oh my gosh, whereis he coming from?
Did he stop and get and then I'mtrying to make sense why he's
there.
You stop and get a protein shakeat the grocery store, but the
grocery store probably wouldn'tbe open yet.
Like, what in the world?
SPEAKER_02 (09:58):
You're trying to try to make it story together.
SPEAKER_04 (10:01):
Yes.
And then I'm like, where has hebeen?
So I follow him to the Y.
The parking lot is kind of twolevels.
So he gets off in the firstlevel, walks in, and I park in
the second level, and I calledhim, and by that time he
answered his phone.
And I said, Where are you?
And he was like, Oh, sorry, um,I was at the Y.
I'm sorry, Ms.
(10:21):
Shakal, I was in the sauna.
And I I said, Well, that's weirdbecause I just saw you walk into
the Y.
And by that time, I'm turningaround to go back home.
And he is like, Well, I think weneed to talk.
Came clean, told me he had beenseeing one of my friends who um
she and her husband weresupposed to be moving.
(10:41):
Like I thought they had alreadymoved, and turns out she had
stayed back.
Oh, yeah.
So he tells me that.
So it's a double whammy.
SPEAKER_02 (10:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (10:51):
Him and my friend.
Like we babysat each other'skids.
She was at my birthday party,which I hadn't been that long
ago.
Um, close friends.
SPEAKER_03 (11:00):
Yeah, so not an acquaintance, like a close
friend.
SPEAKER_04 (11:03):
Yes.
My ex-husband would pick up herhusband from the airport because
he was traveling, he had beentraveling the last little bit
for work.
unknown (11:09):
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (11:09):
Yeah.
Told me that, was veryapologetic, was very like, I
what have I done?
What's wrong with me?
Can you forgive me?
All this.
We got a therapist, we went totherapy, some stuff, you know,
that needed to come out fromkind of on his end came out from
childhood and trauma and allthis stuff.
(11:33):
And so we did that, and for thenext four years, I would like be
like, please never do this to meagain.
SPEAKER_03 (11:40):
Yeah.
Let's talk about what you feltin the moment when you realized
he was having an affair.
SPEAKER_04 (11:50):
I think it's kind of like an out-of-body experience,
honestly.
It is like a gut punch.
And that it was at her, youknow, it was her.
It was, I mean, that was a lot.
Um you still love them, youknow.
So you're like, you are myperson who I want to go to you
for comfort right now becauseI'm devastated, but you're the
(12:12):
person who devastated me.
SPEAKER_03 (12:13):
And then I don't know about you, but I then had
feelings when I found out my exwas having an affair, or it was
it was the affair that kind ofbroke us.
If someone were to be like,would you go back?
It would take me a while toanswer that question.
Because the the girl power inyou wants to be like, F no.
But then if you're like reallyhonest, you're like, I might,
(12:36):
because I still love thisperson, and so then there's like
feelings of guilt and what'swrong with you, and come on, and
like, and you took marriagevows, and I am someone who
respects those marriage vows.
SPEAKER_04 (12:49):
Yes, so for what is for better or for worse, what is
like what is worse, you know?
Um like is this worse isn't aflu.
Yeah, especially when you havechildren involved.
We had just adopted a baby, andhe is sad, and so I told him,
like, you are not your mistake.
If this was a mistake, I willfigure out how to forgive you.
(13:13):
And it was not easy, and I neverfelt like he got the gravity of
it, of what he did.
So it was really hard for me.
The next four years, it was hardto like come up off of like I
still don't think you get this.
We would I would be like, youdon't get what the work I've had
to put in to try to forgive you,and like you wanna complain
about like the dishes weren'tdone or something.
(13:36):
Added to this also, I was astay-at-home mom.
I had stopped working when ourdaughter was born.
Ten years I had, you know, notworked.
Fast forward four years, we putin the work, we were doing
great, everything seemed like itwas moving into a new normal.
SPEAKER_03 (13:53):
Can I ask you real quick?
SPEAKER_04 (13:55):
Yeah, how in the world were you able to forgive?
Well, I realized first that Ididn't know how to forgive.
It was like a forgiveness thatis like the deepest kind of
betrayal hurt by multiple peoplewho shouldn't hurt you.
Friends, and and I am a goodgirlfriend.
(14:17):
So, like that was hard.
That there were friends outthere that I let into my life
that hurt my family.
SPEAKER_01 (14:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (14:24):
You know, Abby, honestly, I still struggle with
forgiveness because it is hard,but it is required, and it is I
know it is for you.
SPEAKER_03 (14:32):
It's for you, not the other person.
unknown (14:34):
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (14:35):
But I did realize then that forgiveness is not as
easy as you think it's gonna be.
She was probably easier toforgive because I didn't expect
as much from her.
He was harder to forgive becauseI expected a lot from him, and I
gave a lot.
I mean, it's that's a process.
Sounds like it's like it's ait's decisions, everything.
(14:57):
You have to choose, I guess.
Yeah, for sure.
Um, and I chose to just to moveon.
I didn't tell anybody ithappened because I thought this
is marriage and I will forgiveyou one time.
But I told them, you ever dothis again and I I will be done.
That's it.
Like this is a mistake, but morethan once is a pattern of
(15:19):
behavior.
Yes.
Well, let's fast forward fouryears.
All of a sudden, he startstelling me that he's unhappy.
Oh, that sounds familiar.
We had my son, my youngest atthat point, so that now we were
on baby three.
He was two, and I thought thiswas just we have little kids,
(15:41):
it's crazy.
Yeah, I'm not happy every dayeither, but like I still love
you, and like we will getthrough the little kid stage
because it's hard.
And we were arguing more becausehe was unhappy.
It I would be excited for him tocome home because it's like, oh,
another adult and my husband,and and he would come in.
It was like a black cloud.
Like, okay, clearly he wasunhappy, but I would have done
(16:04):
anything to change anything inme to make him happy.
One night, I think he told methat he wanted to separate.
I mean, we had started thatwhole conversation, and it still
just seems like, okay, like wehave been together so long.
Like, it just did not seem real.
At that point, we've beenmarried 14 years or something
(16:26):
like that.
We'd been together since we were16.
Imagining life without him waslike imagining no arm on my left
side of my body.
Yeah, yeah.
It was around Super Bowl, and Igot a text message.
We were supposed to go to aSuper Bowl party with some
friends.
One of our friends were hostinga Super Bowl party.
We had started being in thisvolleyball at the rec center,
(16:47):
like an adult volleyball thing,and he would get like
frustrated.
Like, I am not a volleyballplayer, five feet tall, and I've
never played volleyball in mylife, but he would get like
frustrated where I'm like, thisis supposed to be fun, and I'm
not a volleyball player, and I'mjust out here trying to do my
best, you know.
So weird stuff.
Weird stuff.
SPEAKER_03 (17:08):
Yes, I didn't even know how to put my finger on it.
Like, dude, chill.
I'd like I've if I can share acomponent or story, like when we
were kind of in the red light,green light, we went to some
town in North Carolina, somelike mountain town in North
Carolina, and we had gone flyfishing earlier in the day, and
it was like Saturday, so therewas Saturday college football
(17:28):
on, and we came back to a bar,and there was a group of four
women at the bar sitting bythemselves.
I didn't think anything of it.
Later on in our conversations,he was like, Well, you just
don't, you don't like football.
Like, you're not gonna go to abar like those women and sit and
watch football at a bar.
(17:49):
And I'm like, No, I'm not.
Because I got better things todo on a Saturday, and who cares?
Like the little things that comeup your legs.
SPEAKER_04 (17:59):
Microaggressions, maybe, is kind of what I was
feeling.
And so we're going through thisprocess of like, yeah, you are
clearly unhappy, clearly.
I don't know what I can do tolike make this better.
Also, he would get distant withtexting.
I would text him, I wouldn'tautomatically hear back from
him.
He wouldn't call me during theday.
(18:20):
But I'm a pretty like confidentperson, and I don't really need
constant reassurance.
So I think when he pulled awayand got more distance, and I had
three little kids, I just waslike in my lane.
Anyway, we're doing thisvolleyball thing, and we were on
our way what one night to thevolleyball for a game, and he's
pretty much telling me, like,I'm done, and was so cold about
(18:42):
it, like, I'm done beingmarried, I'm gonna move out, all
this, and was so cold that itwas shocking to me.
Literally, like I wasn't talkingto the person that I'd known my
whole life.
And so he was mad that he wasmissing this volleyball game,
and he was like, It's the onething I look forward to today,
and a volleyball game at the reccenter, an adult volleyball
game.
I was like, Okay, like this isfor real.
(19:05):
At that moment, it became real.
I yeah, like you shared, likefor whatever reason, this is a
real moment.
All right, I hear you, I hearyou now.
Maybe a week later, we'rebathing all of our kids, and he
sets his phone down, and he's anAndroid user, so like I don't
even know how to use that myphone.
(19:26):
So he sets his phone down and hedidn't close out of the screen,
so I could just pick it up andsomehow, don't know how, I see
tech messages on the FacebookMessenger.
You can have like private orlike hidden, or I can't remember
the name of the mark.
I didn't even know Facebook hadsuch a thing, but you can
message somebody and it not popup in your messages.
SPEAKER_03 (19:47):
Oh, interesting.
Like hidden.
I didn't know that either.
Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_04 (19:51):
And so I know this was now I'm talking six years
ago, so maybe not anymore, but Ipicked up his phone, and that's
where he was in these Facebookhidden messages, and I clicked
on it, and it was another friendof mine, who was on our
volleyball team and whose housewe were supposed to go to.
(20:13):
Oh, so yeah, we're supposed togo to her house for Super Bowl.
Well, in the midst of all this,she cancels her Super Bowl
party, and I asked him, that wasmy first red flag.
This is weird.
She said, I'm gonna have tocancel having family problems.
And I thought, hmm.
And I said to him, Are herfamily problems and our family
problems any bit related?
(20:34):
And he was like, No, I don'tknow what's going on with them.
I don't know.
And I thought, okay, you swear,because I kept saying, Are you
having an affair?
I kept asking him because wehave three kids, we have a
family, you've done this before.
You don't just get up and leaveyour family.
Yeah, that is what you don't,you don't do that.
No, I had asked him that, and uhthen the volleyball thing
(20:57):
happened, and then the SuperBowl, and then now here we are
bathing our kids, and I see ahey you with a winky face emoji
from my friend, and I lost mymind, and I uh was ready to like
kill somebody.
Yeah.
Well, uh, it was traumatizingnight for me, uh, for my kids,
(21:24):
and um, that's when I was like,okay, I told you you do this to
me again, and we are done.
And I have three little kids,and I've been a stay-at-home mom
for 10 years, and I have noidea.
I don't have family in Texas.
You have friends, but clearlysome of your friends.
Yeah.
So then you're even guessing whoyour friends are.
Yeah.
So I mean, through the wholehealing thing, I'm thinking,
(21:47):
what is wrong with me?
Yeah, like why do I keep makingthese friends?
But I do think, looking back, ifit hadn't ha I loved him so
much, if it hadn't happenedimmediately the way it did the
first time.
God needed me to see him veryblack and white.
He he would always say the firstgirl, she was very manipulative.
(22:08):
And I remember thinking, that'sweird because she's not smart
enough to be manipulative.
Like I knew her, she was myfriend, but I didn't think she
was all that intelligent.
And so I'm like, okay, maybe sheis manipulative, but that she's
not that smart to bemanipulative.
And then now this girl, goingthrough the process of it, he
would say the same things abouther.
She's manipulative.
(22:29):
And I finally was like, no, Ithink you're manipulative.
SPEAKER_03 (22:33):
Here's the common denominator.
SPEAKER_04 (22:35):
You are the common denominator.
The first girl I was able tohave a conversation with on the
phone after I found outeverything.
Like I knew her husband, so Icalled her husband.
I had to tell her husband, hey,I just found my husband at your
house.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:48):
Oh wow.
SPEAKER_04 (22:48):
After that first experience.
Second time, knew her husbandalso, because we were family
friends.
I was actually better friendswith her.
I worked with her, we worked atthe gym together.
So I was even closer to her.
And when I called her husband,he had already known she had
already moved out.
She was in a hotel.
Looking back at that time, it'syou know it's blurry.
(23:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (23:11):
You then made the decision.
Or how how did you come to thedecision that I need to file and
get saved?
SPEAKER_04 (23:18):
So it probably took about six months, and he moved
out.
I just couldn't envision my lifeor my family.
I grew up in such a traditionalhome.
Uh he and I, between the two ofus, he's one of six, I'm one of
four, no divorce in our family.
Our parents are not divorced.
I couldn't even envision lifebeing divorced, being a single
(23:40):
mom.
I had stayed home for so long.
I'm like, I don't even know whatI want to be anymore.
I'm a completely differentperson than when I was working
before.
Also, I've been at home to you,like I wouldn't even know how to
go to a job interview.
What do I say about myself?
I'm mother of three.
That it was my whole identity.
So he had moved out, but westill were seeing each other a
(24:02):
lot, and maybe making it wherewe had gone back to therapy,
thinking we'll either be greatco-parents or maybe we can work
this out.
So my parents had planned a tripto Europe for two weeks, and he
was originally, you know,obviously gonna come.
And in the midst of all this, hewas not invited anymore.
My dad was like, we're done withthat.
I was able to go on this trip.
My parents are like, we want youto go.
(24:22):
This is important to us.
You need to be gone.
You need this for you.
So I went and I was away fromhome and away from him and on a
different time zone.
I only could talk to him if Iwas on Wi-Fi.
And then by the time we'd gethome from doing whatever we were
doing, it was usually too late.
So I really was just me with myparents, with my sister, with
(24:45):
her husband, with my mom's bestfriend who knew me with my
family in Europe.
I was with people who knew me.
I always felt like myex-husband, he knew who he
thought I was, but he did notknow me.
He would say things to me, andit's like, you don't even know
who I am.
And so being with people whoknew who I was, separate, not
being a mom, not being a wife,with a lot of other married
(25:06):
people who'd been married for along time, I thought I am not a
terrible wife.
I'm just like every other wife,because he really did make me
feel like I I just wasn't thatgood of a wife.
And so I was like, who myparents speak to me and know me
as is who I am.
I just had to find that again, Iguess.
(25:28):
I could see things so much moreclearly, not being in his world
of hot and cold and confusion,him telling me who I was instead
of me understanding and knowingwho I am.
When I got back, I thought Ineed to get my own therapist.
And he kept saying things to mewhen I would talk to him, like,
you're acting weird.
And I'm like, No, I'm not.
It was his own insecurity aboutmaybe me coming to this
(25:52):
realization and finally pullingaway.
Because at that point, I thinkhe was maybe ready to work it
out.
You know, he'd had six months ofbeing on his own, away from his
kids.
So I got my own therapist.
She basically told me, I thinkyou're married to a narcissist.
Do you know what that is?
And I thought, well, his brothertold me on the onset of all
(26:12):
this, I think he's a narcissist.
And I was like, but I don'tknow, I don't know what that is.
And I feel like it's a wordpeople throw around.
It's become more and morecommon.
SPEAKER_03 (26:20):
Yeah.
Now, whether it's becausethere's more and more outside, I
don't know, but I I hear you.
And this was several years ago,too.
SPEAKER_04 (26:26):
This was like six, yeah, way before TikTok.
Yeah.
Or whatever, you know.
I said, I know, I mean, I'veheard that term, but I feel like
it's like people throw around,like, oh, I'm so OCD.
And she's like, Well, from whatyou've told me, there are
markers that we check, and shesaid, and obviously I've never
met him, so I can't diagnosehim.
But two affairs that you knowabout, both with your friends,
(26:47):
that's like next level hurt.
And you can either stay with himand know that it'll probably
happen again, and he's hisnarcissism will probably only
get worse, it gets worse as theyget older, and so you if you
choose to stay with him, justknow that's probably gonna be
your future.
Or you choose a life foryourself where you get some
(27:08):
control back.
SPEAKER_03 (27:10):
Yeah, that's like let's just take a moment.
That is a tough decision.
These fears that you've had ofbeing on your own, a single mom
of three kids, and all theinsecurities and anxiety and
nervousness that come with that,that's like behind door number
one.
Yeah.
And then behind door number twois you're married to a
narcissist.
(27:30):
A narcissist says he's probablygonna cheat on you again.
Yeah, and things are gonna getworse.
Yeah, not a great No, it wasn'tgreat.
So, how did you make thatdecision?
SPEAKER_04 (27:43):
So I I wanna say I had a therapy session the
morning of our anniversary, andhe texted me, Why haven't you
said happy anniversary yet?
And that I was like, Well, whyis it my job?
Like, there was just a lack ofaccountability, and God put
(28:03):
friends in my life at that timewho had been through divorce.
That was huge for me.
I think I I learned more aboutnarcissism, and I just was like,
this is not what God intendedfor marriage, and I will never
be happy again.
I still worked with the secondgirl, so I would see her and it
would give me full-on sweats.
(28:25):
Um the minute that I chose,choosing was not in a minute, it
was a process.
But all of this combined, I waslike, I've gotta be done.
I gotta choose me, and I want toshow my kids they were little,
which was hard, but a blessing,what a marriage is supposed to
be like, and I really don't wantto show them a bad marriage is
supposed to be like, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (28:47):
Yeah, you're showing three little people again, that
door number one, door numbertwo.
Yeah.
Either show them, you know, whata good marriage looks like, um,
which they're gonna go and havekids of their own.
It's like a ripple effect.
SPEAKER_04 (29:00):
Yeah, I yeah, I did not want to show them a bad
marriage.
SPEAKER_03 (29:02):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (29:03):
I I kind of after that trip, I was kind of like,
okay, and then the therapy forjust for me, I think I just was
able to, I just could seeclearly, and I had realized that
I wasn't gonna make choicesanymore where I didn't pray
about and then move on.
And for whatever reason at thattime, that's what felt right.
You had peace with thatdecision.
(29:24):
Yeah, okay, yeah, it was a rockyboat, but it felt less rocky.
I do know though that once I letthat go, I was like, I don't
want to be married anymore.
Um, we went to a mutual therapysession, and uh I I told him, I
am done now.
And he was like, I canunderstand because I guess I've
(29:46):
been in the place where I'vebeen done with our marriage
also.
And in my head, I'm like, but Ididn't let an affair clap my
judgment.
Right.
I I was it wasn't someonewaiting in the wings, so to
speak.
Wasn't someone waiting in thewings, yeah.
Uh left there and I called mydad and he's like, Well, okay,
that's good.
I mean, he was just waiting forme to come around to that.
(30:07):
I have a good dad, and he waslike, You deserve way better
than this.
When I would see her, the secondgirl at the gym and stuff, it
was like, Oh, you're not myproblem.
Like, all of this, not myproblem.
SPEAKER_03 (30:21):
So you made the choice.
Again, it didn't come in aminute, it was definitely a
process.
What then did you have to do orprepare for the actual divorce
process?
Like, how did you positionyourself with the divorce
process?
SPEAKER_04 (30:41):
So I met with my attorney.
We owned our own business, butmy ex-husband and I.
I wasn't even on a lot of thebusiness stuff.
I didn't have access to it.
I mean, I couldn't go and seechecking accounts, and he had
business partners also.
So she looking through somestuff was like, we need to get a
discovery on his business.
(31:02):
Stuff wasn't adding up wheremoney was going.
One of the first things he didwas like took money out of our
checking account and put it allthat kind of nastiness that
happens when it's final.
Yeah.
And you know that you can't dothat when you're starting the
divorce process.
You can't take chunks of moneyout of checking accounts.
SPEAKER_01 (31:20):
No.
SPEAKER_04 (31:20):
Um, and so from the time I filed till the time I
finally got divorced was abouttwo years.
So he was going through this thediscovery stuff, but he wasn't,
what is it like, uhparticipating?
Pulling ball.
unknown (31:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (31:35):
Yeah.
He wasn't doing his part of thediscovery, which made the
discovery take forever.
He would never turn in the rightpaperwork.
So, like, we went to a mediationor went to a day where we were
gonna mediate, and she was like,We don't have enough stuff to
even do it.
He didn't bring anything, hewasn't responding to his
lawyers, so his original lawyerquit, and there was like a
hearing.
I didn't even know you couldquit a client, but basically,
(31:57):
because he wasn't doing what thejudge was ordering him to do, it
was just difficult.
Yeah, same.
SPEAKER_03 (32:04):
Um if you lie or if you don't produce the documents,
you make the process so muchlonger and harder than what it
has to be.
And more expensive, and moreexpensive.
It's like the lawyer will askfor this, and when you don't
produce it, they're like, no,really, yeah.
We need yeah, yeah, yeah.
Just just produce what you needto produce.
SPEAKER_04 (32:24):
Yeah, let's just wrap it up.
I can relate to you because samething, it's like you created
this whole mess, and now I wantto move on with my life, and you
are dragging it out.
And so it was a lengthy divorcebecause he wasn't doing his part
on it, and nothing is easy whenyou don't participate like an
adult should.
(32:44):
So I I would first suggestanyone get an attorney because
you don't know what you don'tknow.
They've seen it all, and sopeople who try to do it without
an attorney, I'm always like,no, find someone who can
represent you because you'reabout to hit your hardest days,
and you need someone looking outfor you.
SPEAKER_03 (33:05):
I think having a CPA also, and now your attorney will
likely have a CPA that theyrecommend, but that also is a
game changer for me.
Yeah, because they're looking atthe numbers.
Your judgment is clouded.
Some days it's about survival,and the CPA is the one
objectively looking at numbers,making sure things line up.
SPEAKER_04 (33:28):
Yeah.
Yeah, we had a forensic CPA lookthrough his business and try to
make sense of it.
SPEAKER_03 (33:36):
What what was life like for those two years as you
were actually going to be?
SPEAKER_04 (33:42):
Well, I met my husband.
SPEAKER_03 (33:43):
Oh.
SPEAKER_04 (33:46):
And so that was hard to.
I met him and I originally toldhim, like, I really like you,
but I want to honor my marriage.
I did not know that marriagewould continue on for two more
years through a divorce process.
I originally told him, like, myhusband had an affair, and I
don't want to leave thismarriage being able to say, you
(34:07):
know, that I do anything butleave it the best way possible.
SPEAKER_03 (34:13):
So because the court still deems you married up until
your actual divorce date.
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (34:18):
Yeah.
But we started date.
I mean, but yeah, we starteddating.
unknown (34:21):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (34:23):
Two years is a long time.
SPEAKER_04 (34:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (34:26):
But you're worth it.
I dream you.
Yeah, you are worth it.
I know you.
SPEAKER_04 (34:29):
I mean, I do feel like though, like I had
mentioned earlier, just movingthrough prayer for me was really
important and really thinkingabout my steps.
And when I look back at all ofit, how perfectly aligned me
meeting my husband now was.
And I really did not know how todate.
I hadn't dated anyone since Iwas 16.
(34:51):
And that's definitely differentwhen you're an adult.
Plus, with kids and all that.
So my husband, he's the firstperson I dated after my divorce.
So I just felt blessed.
That was an easy process if ithad to be in the midst of this
difficult process over here.
SPEAKER_03 (35:09):
Yeah, because there's so much ugness with the
process that to have somethingpositive and levity, it's a
little bright light.
Yes.
If we can go back a little bitand you can pass on any question
(35:30):
that I asked.
I don't have kids, I know thatsometimes uh kids are the reason
people stay together.
How did you approach that withyour children?
What values were important foryou to maintain as it relates to
(35:52):
your kids being impacted fromthe divorce?
SPEAKER_04 (35:56):
I immediately put them in therapy.
And actually, it's kind offunny.
Um, my son said, Mom, do youremember when we used to go
visit your friend and we getChick-fil-A?
You pick us up from school, wego visit your friend and we'd
get Chick-fil-A, and I was like,That was a therapist, but he
didn't even know.
I wanted them to be okay, and Ilike I said, I am not a child of
(36:17):
divorce, so I do not understandwhere they're coming from.
And so I immediately put them intherapy.
But one thing that I would haveliked to have seen happen, and
it hasn't necessarily, but somebut it is still important, is
that that first family unit isstill a family unit.
We don't co-parent as well as Iwould like, and things aren't as
(36:42):
united as I wish they could be.
And just like that unit offamily, with or without their
dad in it with us, we were agroup.
Um, and and then just feelinglike their feelings are valid
and asking them also to bepatient with me because I'm
navigating this for the firsttime too.
They were little, so I had atwo-year-old at the time.
(37:03):
That's hard.
One thing we did do that I hopewas helpful is our dog would go
with the kids back and forth,and so like she was constant to
them.
Um, we do birthdays stilltogether as best we can.
So even for my husband now whohas an ex-wife, I still want to
respect that family unit.
(37:24):
It it doesn't go away, it isstill a unit, and it still very
much feels like a unit.
Family to me is the mostimportant, and so I tried to
maintain that as best I could.
It sounds like maintaining asmuch consistency as possible was
a guiding value throughout theprocess.
Yeah, I did not really wanttheir life to change more than
it needed to because it was apretty big change in itself.
SPEAKER_03 (37:46):
And that included staying in Texas.
SPEAKER_04 (37:48):
Yeah.
I originally thought I'm gonnahave to go live with my parents,
I don't have a job, how am Igonna do this?
And and my parents too werelike, move back, you know.
But first of all, I wanted theirdad in their life, so I would
never want to take them awayfrom him.
And I'm like, no, this is mylife.
I have friends here, I have myroots, I am here now.
SPEAKER_01 (38:08):
Yeah, I understand that.
SPEAKER_03 (38:10):
Yeah, divorce, it's a process.
We know it's a two-year process,but it's more than like the
actual you know, time thatyou're passing legal paperwork
back and forth.
Yes.
What tools or strategies did youutilize to get through it?
SPEAKER_04 (38:28):
I think having the friends that I had that God kind
of placed in my life rightbefore my life completely
flipped.
Having friendship having thosefriendships were helpful.
Having my family was helpful.
Prayer is helpful to me, churchwas helpful.
(38:50):
That's kind of where I leaned inmore towards because that to me
was my foundation.
So I would say grasping to whatyou do know in the middle of
what feels like chaos kind ofhelps keep your eye on the prize
of your goals because I thinkyou could get lost in what is my
(39:12):
life?
What is my purpose?
What is my, you know, who am Iif I'm not this?
And this is who I thought I'dbe.
I think now that no one everthinks they're the one that's
gonna get a divorce, right?
Yeah, and I never thought.
I still can can't believe itsometimes.
Like, I can't believe I wentthrough that.
So um to me, that was mosthelpful is just when things
(39:34):
would get crazy to go back towhat is foundational to me.
SPEAKER_03 (39:38):
If you and if you could go back to the the moment
or the moments when just in thethick of it, like those moments
or days when it's aboutsurvival, the hardest of days.
SPEAKER_04 (39:54):
What would this you tell that you that what you are
moving through is a journey, andit's it kind of sounds cliche,
but you aren't at yourdestination, you are not done.
Um, I actually have a card overthere on the fridge, and I'm
(40:17):
gonna walk and grab it.
Someone handed this to me.
I live like two hours from Waco,so I went to the Magnolia Market
and someone handed this to me.
It says, with God, there'salways so much more to come.
And I thought, oh my gosh, howfitting.
I feel like this is the end ofsomething, and it is, it was the
(40:38):
end, and it was the end becauseit needed to be.
But there was a whole notherchapter.
Oh gosh, if I could haveglimpsed into I this is where I
wanted to be.
And I kept saying that in themidst of all that crazy, is I
just want to be like two yearsfrom now.
SPEAKER_03 (40:52):
Same.
I I want to be over this.
I want to be done with thesefeelings and this hurt and this
pain and the guilt and all thefeelings.
Yeah, and I want to just get tothe next chapter, yeah.
But you can't gift that tosomeone else, it can't fast
forward the process.
SPEAKER_04 (41:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (41:14):
So, how did you maintain or prioritize your
health and wellness during thestudy?
SPEAKER_04 (41:21):
Well, luckily, I was teaching group fitness.
So that was my priority.
We're gonna hit an extra hardbaby.
SPEAKER_00 (41:30):
Here we go.
SPEAKER_04 (41:31):
Yeah.
But I could see how you couldget drowned in I'm gonna put me
last.
And that happens as just normalhuman beings, normal moms,
wives.
One thing that you had asked meabout, you know, we originally
spoke was like a theme song, andI have like seven, you know.
And running it out or being ableto work out, and if you're
(41:52):
someone who goes to the gym, youusually have a gym community,
and being able to talk to thosepeople.
And so I was lucky enough to bein a situation where that wasn't
hard for me.
I didn't have to make the time,the time was made, and I was
usually paid to be there, soeven better.
SPEAKER_03 (42:05):
But the physical movement is so huge, it's it's
huge, it impacts everything.
SPEAKER_04 (42:11):
Yes, even if you can get outside and walk 20 minutes
just to get sunshine, see thingsa little bit differently, pretty
much anybody can do that.
And I still do that when stuffgets overwhelming.
Yeah, I'm gonna go walk theblock.
SPEAKER_03 (42:23):
A timeout.
Yeah, I say that like nothingcrystallizes your values more
than going through a divorce.
What values crystallized foryou?
SPEAKER_04 (42:39):
Um, loyalty, love, which I think I would have said
I was really loved by my firsthusband.
Now being married to my husbandnow, it is a different love.
Tell me about that.
Gosh, like just being interestedin my opinion and respecting my
(43:03):
opinion and wanting my opinion,I can be myself and I'm not held
to a standard that that personwasn't willing to hold
themselves to.
And maybe just full acceptanceacceptance and uh someone being
vulnerable with you.
I think there was like a lack ofvulnerability coming from my
ex-husband.
(43:24):
You can't ground yourrelationship if there's no
vulnerability there.
And that's just something that Ithink being older and having now
that I didn't I wouldn't haveknown that that was missing, but
it was.
SPEAKER_03 (43:37):
You mentioned that you just want to fast forward
the clock and you just want tobe in the new chapter.
What did your divorce bring you?
What gifts or opportunities?
SPEAKER_04 (43:52):
Perseverance comes to mind because you have to uh
move through things you don'twant to do, especially being a
single mom.
Mom, nobody was mowing my grass,nobody was doing my dishes,
nobody was putting out my trash.
I had three little kids, myyoungest, nine, six, and we had
just turned three.
So that is a lot.
(44:12):
Nobody's carrying your kids inyour sleeping babies in from the
car.
You are.
It was like three rounds ofcarrying in sleepy babies.
It it was non-stop.
You have to move through thingsand you just have to do them.
And I I don't know that thathelps me as much as I can help
see with my kids.
Like, I know you don't want todo this project, but let's just
(44:33):
do it.
You don't have an option.
And so I feel like that valuehas really been lightened and
kind of surrendering to the factthat we don't control our lives
and we don't always get thingsthe way we think they're gonna
be given to us.
I would always pray for patiencebefore all this because I had
(44:54):
little kids, so every day, likegive me more patience.
Then I became a single mom and Igot what I prayed for.
So now I'm like really carefulto pray for patience.
Um you do have to be patient inlife in general for things to
come to you because they come insuch a better way than forcing
it.
(45:15):
If you just let it let ithappen.
Yeah, in the way of accept andsurrender.
SPEAKER_03 (45:21):
And if you're a person of faith, I think that's
part of the deal.
SPEAKER_04 (45:24):
Yeah, you're taught that, but then like when you
live through it, that is likeokay, I am done trying to do
this my way because I did, andthis is where I'm at.
So I will just move with you,and you will get me where I am
supposed to be, and it'll be thebest thing for me possible.
SPEAKER_03 (45:42):
Yeah, I remember just praying sometimes three
times a day and just being like,if you put the stone in front of
me, I will walk on it.
I don't know where the nextstone is, I don't know where
we're going, but I will walk onit if you present.
SPEAKER_04 (45:59):
Yeah, and also I won't unless you are like, This
is your stone.
Right.
Exactly.
Like, I also won't try to thinkthis stone is more secure.
Like, I'm gonna go on yourstone.
Yeah, but then also please closethe door, slam the window,
caution tape if that's not whatwe're supposed to do.
Yeah, yeah.
And I I feel like outsiderlooking in, because I'm not in
(46:19):
Atlanta living with you, seeingyou every day, but I also feel
like you're doing a great job.
SPEAKER_03 (46:24):
Thank you.
Because it's hard and yeah.
Lemonade from lemons.
Yeah, that's right.
So, in our final question, whatwould you like or what do you
hope people take away fromhearing your story?
SPEAKER_04 (46:39):
Just knowing that in your worst situation, there's
always brighter days ahead.
So that was the worst time of mylife.
You don't have anyone to talk tonormally because I was like, all
my friends are married.
Like it's just hard to havesomeone even be able to relate
to you, so that's really hard.
But when you can find someone,even if you don't personally
(47:02):
know them, you find them throughInstagram or whatever.
But if you can kind of look atwhere they are and know that
that's coming for you too, thatit will get better because it
has to.
But you just have to staygrounded in who you are,
accepting of who you are, andrelinquish control over what my
(47:24):
life should look like.
SPEAKER_03 (47:26):
Those shoulds, yeah, those should shoulds come back
360.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, thank you so much forsharing your story.
I did not know all of that.
You see a little bit on Facebookand you see glimpses of people's
stories, but you don't reallyknow people.
SPEAKER_04 (47:44):
It's scary to put it out there, and social media in
general can be a very not safeplace to put stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (47:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (47:51):
And you don't want everything out there forever,
and you don't know what you'redoing.
Like what you said, like I wastaking it one stone at a time.
And how do I even explain whatI'm going through in the midst
of what I'm going through?
Because I don't I don'tunderstand it yet.
So now I feel like I'm in a muchmore healed place to understand
why I went through that, and soI'm a more whole person to be
(48:14):
able to share what I wentthrough because I think I
understand it better.
And even though, like I said,some days still I'm like, man, I
can't believe I did that.
It was really stinking hard.
But here I am, and I canactually tell a story and not
cry about it and not think of itas devastation.
SPEAKER_03 (48:30):
Yeah, it's just the journey of how you got to where
you are today.
SPEAKER_04 (48:35):
Yeah.
And I would never be theChristian I am if I didn't go
through that ever.
My faith would never be astightly bound to Christ if I did
not go through that.
And I mean, I I'm in a Biblestudy, and sometimes I'll tell
people like, I I sometimes getjealous of who I was because I
was clinging so tight to him.
(48:56):
When everything is going good,you don't cling as hard.
Yeah, no, you'll kind of backoff and go to his hand or you
know, but I was like clinging tohis chest in the midst of it.
And so I would say to somebodyin the middle of it, as hard as
it is, be grateful that you canhave that closeness right now,
(49:17):
because that in itself isprecious in a really hard time
to be.
I'm not taking a step unless youput a stone there.
That doesn't stick with youevery day when everything is
going great.
SPEAKER_03 (49:27):
But oh that's such a good exclamation point to end
this.
So thank you so much.
Thank you.
Okay, yeah.
Thanks for listening to Bitteror Better, where we turn
heartbreak into healing andsurvival into strength.
Vulnerability is the last thingwe look at, the first thing we
(49:48):
look for in the first place.
That's what this is all about.
Real people are going out,sharing their stories, and
finding the rest of the past.
Welcome to Better or Better.
Real stories of the forest ofthe clouds.
The podcast that gets for y'allgot the best metal of the
forest.
And what it's got on the otherside.
(00:56):
You are not alone.
Let's start someone off thestory and see what resonates.
Well, I'm here on location,right outside Austin, Texas,
with a grade school friend.
Yeah, I know.
I feel like we're out ofsleepover.
This is the best.
Kelly Kendall Warren.
Yes.
I mean you know this, but Imoved from private school to
(01:18):
public school in eighth grade,and it was like the scary thing.
And which private school are youat?
I was at Trinity.
Trinity Literature.
SPEAKER_02 (01:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (01:24):
The scariest thing you'll ever do in your life.
Oh, that's what I hear.
SPEAKER_02 (01:28):
Going from from private school to public school.
Yeah.
But you guys were fun.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was fun.
SPEAKER_04 (01:33):
What grade you were in seventh when you moved over?
No, I was I was going intoeighth grade.
Going into eighth grade.
Okay.
All right.
So yeah, middle school.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (01:41):
Yeah, I know.
Look at us.
Look at us as well.
Getting to see you at thereunion.
I know.
It was so fun.
Did you not have the best time?
I had so much fun.
And then I pinged everybody whodidn't go, and I'm like, why
didn't you go?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (01:53):
I know.
I had nervousness about it.
And you went by yourself, right?
And I can not imagine becauseKatie and I went together.
We got there in the pregnantlot, and I was like, we could
just turn around right now.
And nobody would know.
It wouldn't be a big deal.
And my husband was like, Y'allcame for this.
Y'all are y'all can do this.
Let's go.
I'll walk you in.
And I'm so glad.
(02:14):
And I tell all my clients, I'mlike, go.
It's so fun.
It's awkward.
You get nervous.
But everybody feels that way.
Yeah.
And then it's just like oldtimes.
SPEAKER_03 (02:23):
And exactly.
Yeah.
Everyone's just as awkward.
Yeah.
So yeah.
Um that was fun.
Well, before we get into it, canyou go ahead and introduce
yourself?
SPEAKER_04 (02:31):
Yeah, so I'm Lauren and in between Austin and San
Antonio.
I have three of my own children,two stepchildren.
Yeah, I kind of marriedoriginally my high school
sweetheart.
Um, and we'll get into it.
SPEAKER_03 (02:48):
And that that that we will talk about what
happened.
Okay.
Yeah.
I don't know much of your story.
I know like maybe tip of theiceberg.
I don't know much.
So thank you for doing this andbeing vulnerable and sharing.
I always ask people, why onearth would you go back and pick
(03:10):
at the scab that has healed?
Why why open up and share yourstory with others?
SPEAKER_04 (03:17):
You know, and we talked about we're both women of
faith.
I feel like when we go throughthese trials in life, God gets
us through them, or you know,you you get through them, and if
you don't share your experience,I feel like that's the blessing
in all of it is that you thenhave a story to share with
someone else because nothing isworse than going through
(03:37):
something alone.
When you send over ideas aboutwhat you want to talk about, it
was like picking a scab, and Iwas like, oh my gosh, some of
these you block out of yourmemory because it is so hurtful.
But I guess just mainly to letpeople know that you aren't
alone, feelings are normal,they're valid.
And when somebody else canunderstand what you've been
(03:58):
through, it is a game changer.
SPEAKER_03 (04:01):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
When I meet people, even ifthey're strangers, but we
somehow talk about our personallives and they've gone through a
divorce, like it takes arelationship to a whole new
level.
You don't have to say anything,you're just like, I got it.
SPEAKER_02 (04:14):
I I got you, girl.
SPEAKER_03 (04:15):
Yeah, I understand.
Well, thank you.
Yeah, the mission and purpose ofthe podcast is to help people
feel like they're not alone andit sucks, but you will get
through it, and there's two waysto get through it, yeah, you
know, bitter or better.
Yeah, so let's rewind.
You married your high schoolsweetheart.
(04:37):
Yep, you know, describe therelationship and then the
marriage and the family dynamic.
SPEAKER_04 (04:42):
We met originally, I think I was 14 and he was 16,
and then started dating.
So he went to a different highschool, was two years older than
me.
So we started dating my junioryear, his freshman year of
college.
And our families knew eachother.
We were in a small church indifferent locations, but our
(05:04):
families knew each other throughthat.
Started dating when we were 16.
We got married.
Um, I had been 20 for a monthwhen we got married.
SPEAKER_03 (05:12):
I didn't even realize that you guys met in
high school.
Yeah, dated all throughout highschool.
That must be why I don'tremember you dating any boys
from high school.
SPEAKER_04 (05:24):
Yeah, and I still lived it up in high school.
I still felt like I had a it waskind of nice that he was at
college because and he playedbasketball.
So like he was busy in college,and I could be with my friends
and do all that.
But yeah, so we got married whenI was I had been 20 for one
month, and we had babies startedhaving a family.
(05:46):
Um, we we had gone through somemiscarriages, IVF.
So we went through it the firstfive years.
Wow, and then um ended up doingIVF, having my daughter, and
then got married in 2005, 2010.
I had her, then we adopted, andI had and my little sons
adopted.
I didn't know that.
So we did all of that to theseare all very big things that
(06:09):
could be enough in a marriage.
IVF, adoption, all of those ontheir own.
That's enough.
That's more than a lot of peoplehave to go through.
Did IVF again, had my youngestson.
I mean, just to break down, justto get into it, I guess.
After we adopted our son, he wasabout six months old.
(06:33):
My sister was living with us atthe time.
She had gone through a breakupactually and was like, I'm
coming to Tex.
She came here, fell in love withit.
So she lived with us up in theroom up front.
SPEAKER_03 (06:43):
Okay, so you and he moved to Texas together.
SPEAKER_04 (06:46):
We did, yeah.
We moved here right after I hadmy daughter.
She was four months old when wemoved here.
You know, we went through theadoption, my sister moved here,
had a had a new baby that was wehad just adopted, trying to get
into that groove, and he wasn'tlike the easiest baby, so that
was really hard.
I was having a lot of like ummom guilt because I felt like I
(07:07):
mean, he was just kind of a hardbaby, but I felt like it was me
because I should have read morebooks or something on adoption.
I just thought I want to be amom and this will be, you know,
and all just fit in naturally,but it was emotionally harder
than what I thought it would be.
So going through all of that,um, he was probably about six
months old, and then my husbandhad his first affair.
(07:31):
And kind of crazy story, I wokeup in the middle of the night,
or I I guess it was probably notthe middle of the night, I felt
like it.
It was probably about fouro'clock, four thirty in the
morning, and he wasn't home.
And he would get up and go tothe gym every morning, and so I
thought, well, he must have goneto the gym.
And then I'm having all thesethoughts, like, he is so
dedicated.
He gets up and he goes to thegym.
(07:52):
I need to do that more.
I need to find, you know, youhave all these like woman guild,
I guess.
I don't even know that whereyou're just like, I should be
working out, I should be doingthis.
Yeah, shoulds.
Yes, and so I get up with myson, I make him a bottle, I'm
rocking him in his chair, and Iliterally hear a voice in my
head that's because then I'mthinking, well, what?
(08:13):
It's so early.
Wait, what time?
Then I'm like coming into I'mmore awake and I'm like, where
is he?
So I called him a couple times,didn't answer.
Then I am rocking my son and I'mthinking, like, you know,
feeding him his bottle, and I'mlike, man, what in the world?
And I hear a voice in my headsay, Go to the why.
And I'm like, that's crazy.
(08:33):
I mean, by this time it'dprobably been 30 minutes.
I was like, that's crazy.
And it was not my voice, it wasa prompting.
I'm like, that's crazy.
So I, you know, I finish thebottle with my son, I get him
back to bed, which is a process,and I hear again, go to the why
now.
And I'm like, oh my gosh, if hesees me going to the why, I am
(08:57):
gonna look like a psycho.
And I'd had no reason to thinkanything that I need to check up
on him.
No reason.
Great guy, active in church.
I've been with him I felt likemy whole life.
We had a new baby, no reason tothink that.
So then I started thinking,like, well, my sister's here, so
(09:18):
my kids wouldn't be alone.
Yeah, I could take her car, hewouldn't know.
Yeah, like he wouldn't spot it.
I live about two minutes fromthe interstate.
I merge onto the interstatedirectly behind him, driving
down the interstate, rightbehind my car.
And I had a cardinal's a St.
Louis Cardinals thing on my car.
(09:38):
So I knew it was my car.
Yeah.
Because you don't see St.
Louis Cardinals here in themiddle of Texas.
That's right.
So I was like, oh my gosh, whereis he coming from?
Did he stop and get and then I'mtrying to make sense why he's
there.
You stop and get a protein shakeat the grocery store, but the
grocery store probably wouldn'tbe open yet.
Like, what in the world?
SPEAKER_02 (09:58):
You're trying to try to make it story together.
SPEAKER_04 (10:01):
Yes.
And then I'm like, where has hebeen?
So I follow him to the Y.
The parking lot is kind of twolevels.
So he gets off in the firstlevel, walks in, and I park in
the second level, and I calledhim, and by that time he
answered his phone.
And I said, Where are you?
And he was like, Oh, sorry, um,I was at the Y.
I'm sorry, Ms.
(10:21):
Shakal, I was in the sauna.
And I I said, Well, that's weirdbecause I just saw you walk into
the Y.
And by that time, I'm turningaround to go back home.
And he is like, Well, I think weneed to talk.
Came clean, told me he had beenseeing one of my friends who um
she and her husband weresupposed to be moving.
(10:41):
Like I thought they had alreadymoved, and turns out she had
stayed back.
Oh, yeah.
So he tells me that.
So it's a double whammy.
SPEAKER_02 (10:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (10:51):
Him and my friend.
Like we babysat each other'skids.
She was at my birthday party,which I hadn't been that long
ago.
Um, close friends.
SPEAKER_03 (11:00):
Yeah, so not an acquaintance, like a close
friend.
SPEAKER_04 (11:03):
Yes.
My ex-husband would pick up herhusband from the airport because
he was traveling, he had beentraveling the last little bit
for work.
unknown (11:09):
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (11:09):
Yeah.
Told me that, was veryapologetic, was very like, I
what have I done?
What's wrong with me?
Can you forgive me?
All this.
We got a therapist, we went totherapy, some stuff, you know,
that needed to come out fromkind of on his end came out from
childhood and trauma and allthis stuff.
(11:33):
And so we did that, and for thenext four years, I would like be
like, please never do this to meagain.
SPEAKER_03 (11:40):
Yeah.
Let's talk about what you feltin the moment when you realized
he was having an affair.
SPEAKER_04 (11:50):
I think it's kind of like an out-of-body experience,
honestly.
It is like a gut punch.
And that it was at her, youknow, it was her.
It was, I mean, that was a lot.
Um you still love them, youknow.
So you're like, you are myperson who I want to go to you
for comfort right now becauseI'm devastated, but you're the
(12:12):
person who devastated me.
SPEAKER_03 (12:13):
And then I don't know about you, but I then had
feelings when I found out my exwas having an affair, or it was
it was the affair that kind ofbroke us.
If someone were to be like,would you go back?
It would take me a while toanswer that question.
Because the the girl power inyou wants to be like, F no.
But then if you're like reallyhonest, you're like, I might,
(12:36):
because I still love thisperson, and so then there's like
feelings of guilt and what'swrong with you, and come on, and
like, and you took marriagevows, and I am someone who
respects those marriage vows.
SPEAKER_04 (12:49):
Yes, so for what is for better or for worse, what is
like what is worse, you know?
Um like is this worse isn't aflu.
Yeah, especially when you havechildren involved.
We had just adopted a baby, andhe is sad, and so I told him,
like, you are not your mistake.
If this was a mistake, I willfigure out how to forgive you.
(13:13):
And it was not easy, and I neverfelt like he got the gravity of
it, of what he did.
So it was really hard for me.
The next four years, it was hardto like come up off of like I
still don't think you get this.
We would I would be like, youdon't get what the work I've had
to put in to try to forgive you,and like you wanna complain
about like the dishes weren'tdone or something.
(13:36):
Added to this also, I was astay-at-home mom.
I had stopped working when ourdaughter was born.
Ten years I had, you know, notworked.
Fast forward four years, we putin the work, we were doing
great, everything seemed like itwas moving into a new normal.
SPEAKER_03 (13:53):
Can I ask you real quick?
SPEAKER_04 (13:55):
Yeah, how in the world were you able to forgive?
Well, I realized first that Ididn't know how to forgive.
It was like a forgiveness thatis like the deepest kind of
betrayal hurt by multiple peoplewho shouldn't hurt you.
Friends, and and I am a goodgirlfriend.
(14:17):
So, like that was hard.
That there were friends outthere that I let into my life
that hurt my family.
SPEAKER_01 (14:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (14:24):
You know, Abby, honestly, I still struggle with
forgiveness because it is hard,but it is required, and it is I
know it is for you.
SPEAKER_03 (14:32):
It's for you, not the other person.
unknown (14:34):
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (14:35):
But I did realize then that forgiveness is not as
easy as you think it's gonna be.
She was probably easier toforgive because I didn't expect
as much from her.
He was harder to forgive becauseI expected a lot from him, and I
gave a lot.
I mean, it's that's a process.
Sounds like it's like it's ait's decisions, everything.
(14:57):
You have to choose, I guess.
Yeah, for sure.
Um, and I chose to just to moveon.
I didn't tell anybody ithappened because I thought this
is marriage and I will forgiveyou one time.
But I told them, you ever dothis again and I I will be done.
That's it.
Like this is a mistake, but morethan once is a pattern of
(15:19):
behavior.
Yes.
Well, let's fast forward fouryears.
All of a sudden, he startstelling me that he's unhappy.
Oh, that sounds familiar.
We had my son, my youngest atthat point, so that now we were
on baby three.
He was two, and I thought thiswas just we have little kids,
(15:41):
it's crazy.
Yeah, I'm not happy every dayeither, but like I still love
you, and like we will getthrough the little kid stage
because it's hard.
And we were arguing more becausehe was unhappy.
It I would be excited for him tocome home because it's like, oh,
another adult and my husband,and and he would come in.
It was like a black cloud.
Like, okay, clearly he wasunhappy, but I would have done
(16:04):
anything to change anything inme to make him happy.
One night, I think he told methat he wanted to separate.
I mean, we had started thatwhole conversation, and it still
just seems like, okay, like wehave been together so long.
Like, it just did not seem real.
At that point, we've beenmarried 14 years or something
(16:26):
like that.
We'd been together since we were16.
Imagining life without him waslike imagining no arm on my left
side of my body.
Yeah, yeah.
It was around Super Bowl, and Igot a text message.
We were supposed to go to aSuper Bowl party with some
friends.
One of our friends were hostinga Super Bowl party.
We had started being in thisvolleyball at the rec center,
(16:47):
like an adult volleyball thing,and he would get like
frustrated.
Like, I am not a volleyballplayer, five feet tall, and I've
never played volleyball in mylife, but he would get like
frustrated where I'm like, thisis supposed to be fun, and I'm
not a volleyball player, and I'mjust out here trying to do my
best, you know.
So weird stuff.
Weird stuff.
SPEAKER_03 (17:08):
Yes, I didn't even know how to put my finger on it.
Like, dude, chill.
I'd like I've if I can share acomponent or story, like when we
were kind of in the red light,green light, we went to some
town in North Carolina, somelike mountain town in North
Carolina, and we had gone flyfishing earlier in the day, and
it was like Saturday, so therewas Saturday college football
(17:28):
on, and we came back to a bar,and there was a group of four
women at the bar sitting bythemselves.
I didn't think anything of it.
Later on in our conversations,he was like, Well, you just
don't, you don't like football.
Like, you're not gonna go to abar like those women and sit and
watch football at a bar.
(17:49):
And I'm like, No, I'm not.
Because I got better things todo on a Saturday, and who cares?
Like the little things that comeup your legs.
SPEAKER_04 (17:59):
Microaggressions, maybe, is kind of what I was
feeling.
And so we're going through thisprocess of like, yeah, you are
clearly unhappy, clearly.
I don't know what I can do tolike make this better.
Also, he would get distant withtexting.
I would text him, I wouldn'tautomatically hear back from
him.
He wouldn't call me during theday.
(18:20):
But I'm a pretty like confidentperson, and I don't really need
constant reassurance.
So I think when he pulled awayand got more distance, and I had
three little kids, I just waslike in my lane.
Anyway, we're doing thisvolleyball thing, and we were on
our way what one night to thevolleyball for a game, and he's
pretty much telling me, like,I'm done, and was so cold about
(18:42):
it, like, I'm done beingmarried, I'm gonna move out, all
this, and was so cold that itwas shocking to me.
Literally, like I wasn't talkingto the person that I'd known my
whole life.
And so he was mad that he wasmissing this volleyball game,
and he was like, It's the onething I look forward to today,
and a volleyball game at the reccenter, an adult volleyball
game.
I was like, Okay, like this isfor real.
(19:05):
At that moment, it became real.
I yeah, like you shared, likefor whatever reason, this is a
real moment.
All right, I hear you, I hearyou now.
Maybe a week later, we'rebathing all of our kids, and he
sets his phone down, and he's anAndroid user, so like I don't
even know how to use that myphone.
(19:26):
So he sets his phone down and hedidn't close out of the screen,
so I could just pick it up andsomehow, don't know how, I see
tech messages on the FacebookMessenger.
You can have like private orlike hidden, or I can't remember
the name of the mark.
I didn't even know Facebook hadsuch a thing, but you can
message somebody and it not popup in your messages.
SPEAKER_03 (19:47):
Oh, interesting.
Like hidden.
I didn't know that either.
Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_04 (19:51):
And so I know this was now I'm talking six years
ago, so maybe not anymore, but Ipicked up his phone, and that's
where he was in these Facebookhidden messages, and I clicked
on it, and it was another friendof mine, who was on our
volleyball team and whose housewe were supposed to go to.
(20:13):
Oh, so yeah, we're supposed togo to her house for Super Bowl.
Well, in the midst of all this,she cancels her Super Bowl
party, and I asked him, that wasmy first red flag.
This is weird.
She said, I'm gonna have tocancel having family problems.
And I thought, hmm.
And I said to him, Are herfamily problems and our family
problems any bit related?
(20:34):
And he was like, No, I don'tknow what's going on with them.
I don't know.
And I thought, okay, you swear,because I kept saying, Are you
having an affair?
I kept asking him because wehave three kids, we have a
family, you've done this before.
You don't just get up and leaveyour family.
Yeah, that is what you don't,you don't do that.
No, I had asked him that, and uhthen the volleyball thing
(20:57):
happened, and then the SuperBowl, and then now here we are
bathing our kids, and I see ahey you with a winky face emoji
from my friend, and I lost mymind, and I uh was ready to like
kill somebody.
Yeah.
Well, uh, it was traumatizingnight for me, uh, for my kids,
(21:24):
and um, that's when I was like,okay, I told you you do this to
me again, and we are done.
And I have three little kids,and I've been a stay-at-home mom
for 10 years, and I have noidea.
I don't have family in Texas.
You have friends, but clearlysome of your friends.
Yeah.
So then you're even guessing whoyour friends are.
Yeah.
So I mean, through the wholehealing thing, I'm thinking,
(21:47):
what is wrong with me?
Yeah, like why do I keep makingthese friends?
But I do think, looking back, ifit hadn't ha I loved him so
much, if it hadn't happenedimmediately the way it did the
first time.
God needed me to see him veryblack and white.
He he would always say the firstgirl, she was very manipulative.
(22:08):
And I remember thinking, that'sweird because she's not smart
enough to be manipulative.
Like I knew her, she was myfriend, but I didn't think she
was all that intelligent.
And so I'm like, okay, maybe sheis manipulative, but that she's
not that smart to bemanipulative.
And then now this girl, goingthrough the process of it, he
would say the same things abouther.
She's manipulative.
(22:29):
And I finally was like, no, Ithink you're manipulative.
SPEAKER_03 (22:33):
Here's the common denominator.
SPEAKER_04 (22:35):
You are the common denominator.
The first girl I was able tohave a conversation with on the
phone after I found outeverything.
Like I knew her husband, so Icalled her husband.
I had to tell her husband, hey,I just found my husband at your
house.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:48):
Oh wow.
SPEAKER_04 (22:48):
After that first experience.
Second time, knew her husbandalso, because we were family
friends.
I was actually better friendswith her.
I worked with her, we worked atthe gym together.
So I was even closer to her.
And when I called her husband,he had already known she had
already moved out.
She was in a hotel.
Looking back at that time, it'syou know it's blurry.
(23:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (23:11):
You then made the decision.
Or how how did you come to thedecision that I need to file and
get saved?
SPEAKER_04 (23:18):
So it probably took about six months, and he moved
out.
I just couldn't envision my lifeor my family.
I grew up in such a traditionalhome.
Uh he and I, between the two ofus, he's one of six, I'm one of
four, no divorce in our family.
Our parents are not divorced.
I couldn't even envision lifebeing divorced, being a single
(23:40):
mom.
I had stayed home for so long.
I'm like, I don't even know whatI want to be anymore.
I'm a completely differentperson than when I was working
before.
Also, I've been at home to you,like I wouldn't even know how to
go to a job interview.
What do I say about myself?
I'm mother of three.
That it was my whole identity.
So he had moved out, but westill were seeing each other a
(24:02):
lot, and maybe making it wherewe had gone back to therapy,
thinking we'll either be greatco-parents or maybe we can work
this out.
So my parents had planned a tripto Europe for two weeks, and he
was originally, you know,obviously gonna come.
And in the midst of all this, hewas not invited anymore.
My dad was like, we're done withthat.
I was able to go on this trip.
My parents are like, we want youto go.
(24:22):
This is important to us.
You need to be gone.
You need this for you.
So I went and I was away fromhome and away from him and on a
different time zone.
I only could talk to him if Iwas on Wi-Fi.
And then by the time we'd gethome from doing whatever we were
doing, it was usually too late.
So I really was just me with myparents, with my sister, with
(24:45):
her husband, with my mom's bestfriend who knew me with my
family in Europe.
I was with people who knew me.
I always felt like myex-husband, he knew who he
thought I was, but he did notknow me.
He would say things to me, andit's like, you don't even know
who I am.
And so being with people whoknew who I was, separate, not
being a mom, not being a wife,with a lot of other married
(25:06):
people who'd been married for along time, I thought I am not a
terrible wife.
I'm just like every other wife,because he really did make me
feel like I I just wasn't thatgood of a wife.
And so I was like, who myparents speak to me and know me
as is who I am.
I just had to find that again, Iguess.
(25:28):
I could see things so much moreclearly, not being in his world
of hot and cold and confusion,him telling me who I was instead
of me understanding and knowingwho I am.
When I got back, I thought Ineed to get my own therapist.
And he kept saying things to mewhen I would talk to him, like,
you're acting weird.
And I'm like, No, I'm not.
It was his own insecurity aboutmaybe me coming to this
(25:52):
realization and finally pullingaway.
Because at that point, I thinkhe was maybe ready to work it
out.
You know, he'd had six months ofbeing on his own, away from his
kids.
So I got my own therapist.
She basically told me, I thinkyou're married to a narcissist.
Do you know what that is?
And I thought, well, his brothertold me on the onset of all
(26:12):
this, I think he's a narcissist.
And I was like, but I don'tknow, I don't know what that is.
And I feel like it's a wordpeople throw around.
It's become more and morecommon.
SPEAKER_03 (26:20):
Yeah.
Now, whether it's becausethere's more and more outside, I
don't know, but I I hear you.
And this was several years ago,too.
SPEAKER_04 (26:26):
This was like six, yeah, way before TikTok.
Yeah.
Or whatever, you know.
I said, I know, I mean, I'veheard that term, but I feel like
it's like people throw around,like, oh, I'm so OCD.
And she's like, Well, from whatyou've told me, there are
markers that we check, and shesaid, and obviously I've never
met him, so I can't diagnosehim.
But two affairs that you knowabout, both with your friends,
(26:47):
that's like next level hurt.
And you can either stay with himand know that it'll probably
happen again, and he's hisnarcissism will probably only
get worse, it gets worse as theyget older, and so you if you
choose to stay with him, justknow that's probably gonna be
your future.
Or you choose a life foryourself where you get some
(27:08):
control back.
SPEAKER_03 (27:10):
Yeah, that's like let's just take a moment.
That is a tough decision.
These fears that you've had ofbeing on your own, a single mom
of three kids, and all theinsecurities and anxiety and
nervousness that come with that,that's like behind door number
one.
Yeah.
And then behind door number twois you're married to a
narcissist.
(27:30):
A narcissist says he's probablygonna cheat on you again.
Yeah, and things are gonna getworse.
Yeah, not a great No, it wasn'tgreat.
So, how did you make thatdecision?
SPEAKER_04 (27:43):
So I I wanna say I had a therapy session the
morning of our anniversary, andhe texted me, Why haven't you
said happy anniversary yet?
And that I was like, Well, whyis it my job?
Like, there was just a lack ofaccountability, and God put
(28:03):
friends in my life at that timewho had been through divorce.
That was huge for me.
I think I I learned more aboutnarcissism, and I just was like,
this is not what God intendedfor marriage, and I will never
be happy again.
I still worked with the secondgirl, so I would see her and it
would give me full-on sweats.
(28:25):
Um the minute that I chose,choosing was not in a minute, it
was a process.
But all of this combined, I waslike, I've gotta be done.
I gotta choose me, and I want toshow my kids they were little,
which was hard, but a blessing,what a marriage is supposed to
be like, and I really don't wantto show them a bad marriage is
supposed to be like, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (28:47):
Yeah, you're showing three little people again, that
door number one, door numbertwo.
Yeah.
Either show them, you know, whata good marriage looks like, um,
which they're gonna go and havekids of their own.
It's like a ripple effect.
SPEAKER_04 (29:00):
Yeah, I yeah, I did not want to show them a bad
marriage.
SPEAKER_03 (29:02):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (29:03):
I I kind of after that trip, I was kind of like,
okay, and then the therapy forjust for me, I think I just was
able to, I just could seeclearly, and I had realized that
I wasn't gonna make choicesanymore where I didn't pray
about and then move on.
And for whatever reason at thattime, that's what felt right.
You had peace with thatdecision.
(29:24):
Yeah, okay, yeah, it was a rockyboat, but it felt less rocky.
I do know though that once I letthat go, I was like, I don't
want to be married anymore.
Um, we went to a mutual therapysession, and uh I I told him, I
am done now.
And he was like, I canunderstand because I guess I've
(29:46):
been in the place where I'vebeen done with our marriage
also.
And in my head, I'm like, but Ididn't let an affair clap my
judgment.
Right.
I I was it wasn't someonewaiting in the wings, so to
speak.
Wasn't someone waiting in thewings, yeah.
Uh left there and I called mydad and he's like, Well, okay,
that's good.
I mean, he was just waiting forme to come around to that.
(30:07):
I have a good dad, and he waslike, You deserve way better
than this.
When I would see her, the secondgirl at the gym and stuff, it
was like, Oh, you're not myproblem.
Like, all of this, not myproblem.
SPEAKER_03 (30:21):
So you made the choice.
Again, it didn't come in aminute, it was definitely a
process.
What then did you have to do orprepare for the actual divorce
process?
Like, how did you positionyourself with the divorce
process?
SPEAKER_04 (30:41):
So I met with my attorney.
We owned our own business, butmy ex-husband and I.
I wasn't even on a lot of thebusiness stuff.
I didn't have access to it.
I mean, I couldn't go and seechecking accounts, and he had
business partners also.
So she looking through somestuff was like, we need to get a
discovery on his business.
(31:02):
Stuff wasn't adding up wheremoney was going.
One of the first things he didwas like took money out of our
checking account and put it allthat kind of nastiness that
happens when it's final.
Yeah.
And you know that you can't dothat when you're starting the
divorce process.
You can't take chunks of moneyout of checking accounts.
SPEAKER_01 (31:20):
No.
SPEAKER_04 (31:20):
Um, and so from the time I filed till the time I
finally got divorced was abouttwo years.
So he was going through this thediscovery stuff, but he wasn't,
what is it like, uhparticipating?
Pulling ball.
unknown (31:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (31:35):
Yeah.
He wasn't doing his part of thediscovery, which made the
discovery take forever.
He would never turn in the rightpaperwork.
So, like, we went to a mediationor went to a day where we were
gonna mediate, and she was like,We don't have enough stuff to
even do it.
He didn't bring anything, hewasn't responding to his
lawyers, so his original lawyerquit, and there was like a
hearing.
I didn't even know you couldquit a client, but basically,
(31:57):
because he wasn't doing what thejudge was ordering him to do, it
was just difficult.
Yeah, same.
SPEAKER_03 (32:04):
Um if you lie or if you don't produce the documents,
you make the process so muchlonger and harder than what it
has to be.
And more expensive, and moreexpensive.
It's like the lawyer will askfor this, and when you don't
produce it, they're like, no,really, yeah.
We need yeah, yeah, yeah.
Just just produce what you needto produce.
SPEAKER_04 (32:24):
Yeah, let's just wrap it up.
I can relate to you because samething, it's like you created
this whole mess, and now I wantto move on with my life, and you
are dragging it out.
And so it was a lengthy divorcebecause he wasn't doing his part
on it, and nothing is easy whenyou don't participate like an
adult should.
(32:44):
So I I would first suggestanyone get an attorney because
you don't know what you don'tknow.
They've seen it all, and sopeople who try to do it without
an attorney, I'm always like,no, find someone who can
represent you because you'reabout to hit your hardest days,
and you need someone looking outfor you.
SPEAKER_03 (33:05):
I think having a CPA also, and now your attorney will
likely have a CPA that theyrecommend, but that also is a
game changer for me.
Yeah, because they're looking atthe numbers.
Your judgment is clouded.
Some days it's about survival,and the CPA is the one
objectively looking at numbers,making sure things line up.
SPEAKER_04 (33:28):
Yeah.
Yeah, we had a forensic CPA lookthrough his business and try to
make sense of it.
SPEAKER_03 (33:36):
What what was life like for those two years as you
were actually going to be?
SPEAKER_04 (33:42):
Well, I met my husband.
SPEAKER_03 (33:43):
Oh.
SPEAKER_04 (33:46):
And so that was hard to.
I met him and I originally toldhim, like, I really like you,
but I want to honor my marriage.
I did not know that marriagewould continue on for two more
years through a divorce process.
I originally told him, like, myhusband had an affair, and I
don't want to leave thismarriage being able to say, you
(34:07):
know, that I do anything butleave it the best way possible.
SPEAKER_03 (34:13):
So because the court still deems you married up until
your actual divorce date.
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (34:18):
Yeah.
But we started date.
I mean, but yeah, we starteddating.
unknown (34:21):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (34:23):
Two years is a long time.
SPEAKER_04 (34:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (34:26):
But you're worth it.
I dream you.
Yeah, you are worth it.
I know you.
SPEAKER_04 (34:29):
I mean, I do feel like though, like I had
mentioned earlier, just movingthrough prayer for me was really
important and really thinkingabout my steps.
And when I look back at all ofit, how perfectly aligned me
meeting my husband now was.
And I really did not know how todate.
I hadn't dated anyone since Iwas 16.
(34:51):
And that's definitely differentwhen you're an adult.
Plus, with kids and all that.
So my husband, he's the firstperson I dated after my divorce.
So I just felt blessed.
That was an easy process if ithad to be in the midst of this
difficult process over here.
SPEAKER_03 (35:09):
Yeah, because there's so much ugness with the
process that to have somethingpositive and levity, it's a
little bright light.
Yes.
If we can go back a little bitand you can pass on any question
(35:30):
that I asked.
I don't have kids, I know thatsometimes uh kids are the reason
people stay together.
How did you approach that withyour children?
What values were important foryou to maintain as it relates to
(35:52):
your kids being impacted fromthe divorce?
SPEAKER_04 (35:56):
I immediately put them in therapy.
And actually, it's kind offunny.
Um, my son said, Mom, do youremember when we used to go
visit your friend and we getChick-fil-A?
You pick us up from school, wego visit your friend and we'd
get Chick-fil-A, and I was like,That was a therapist, but he
didn't even know.
I wanted them to be okay, and Ilike I said, I am not a child of
(36:17):
divorce, so I do not understandwhere they're coming from.
And so I immediately put them intherapy.
But one thing that I would haveliked to have seen happen, and
it hasn't necessarily, but somebut it is still important, is
that that first family unit isstill a family unit.
We don't co-parent as well as Iwould like, and things aren't as
(36:42):
united as I wish they could be.
And just like that unit offamily, with or without their
dad in it with us, we were agroup.
Um, and and then just feelinglike their feelings are valid
and asking them also to bepatient with me because I'm
navigating this for the firsttime too.
They were little, so I had atwo-year-old at the time.
(37:03):
That's hard.
One thing we did do that I hopewas helpful is our dog would go
with the kids back and forth,and so like she was constant to
them.
Um, we do birthdays stilltogether as best we can.
So even for my husband now whohas an ex-wife, I still want to
respect that family unit.
(37:24):
It it doesn't go away, it isstill a unit, and it still very
much feels like a unit.
Family to me is the mostimportant, and so I tried to
maintain that as best I could.
It sounds like maintaining asmuch consistency as possible was
a guiding value throughout theprocess.
Yeah, I did not really wanttheir life to change more than
it needed to because it was apretty big change in itself.
SPEAKER_03 (37:46):
And that included staying in Texas.
SPEAKER_04 (37:48):
Yeah.
I originally thought I'm gonnahave to go live with my parents,
I don't have a job, how am Igonna do this?
And and my parents too werelike, move back, you know.
But first of all, I wanted theirdad in their life, so I would
never want to take them awayfrom him.
And I'm like, no, this is mylife.
I have friends here, I have myroots, I am here now.
SPEAKER_01 (38:08):
Yeah, I understand that.
SPEAKER_03 (38:10):
Yeah, divorce, it's a process.
We know it's a two-year process,but it's more than like the
actual you know, time thatyou're passing legal paperwork
back and forth.
Yes.
What tools or strategies did youutilize to get through it?
SPEAKER_04 (38:28):
I think having the friends that I had that God kind
of placed in my life rightbefore my life completely
flipped.
Having friendship having thosefriendships were helpful.
Having my family was helpful.
Prayer is helpful to me, churchwas helpful.
(38:50):
That's kind of where I leaned inmore towards because that to me
was my foundation.
So I would say grasping to whatyou do know in the middle of
what feels like chaos kind ofhelps keep your eye on the prize
of your goals because I thinkyou could get lost in what is my
(39:12):
life?
What is my purpose?
What is my, you know, who am Iif I'm not this?
And this is who I thought I'dbe.
I think now that no one everthinks they're the one that's
gonna get a divorce, right?
Yeah, and I never thought.
I still can can't believe itsometimes.
Like, I can't believe I wentthrough that.
So um to me, that was mosthelpful is just when things
(39:34):
would get crazy to go back towhat is foundational to me.
SPEAKER_03 (39:38):
If you and if you could go back to the the moment
or the moments when just in thethick of it, like those moments
or days when it's aboutsurvival, the hardest of days.
SPEAKER_04 (39:54):
What would this you tell that you that what you are
moving through is a journey, andit's it kind of sounds cliche,
but you aren't at yourdestination, you are not done.
Um, I actually have a card overthere on the fridge, and I'm
(40:17):
gonna walk and grab it.
Someone handed this to me.
I live like two hours from Waco,so I went to the Magnolia Market
and someone handed this to me.
It says, with God, there'salways so much more to come.
And I thought, oh my gosh, howfitting.
I feel like this is the end ofsomething, and it is, it was the
(40:38):
end, and it was the end becauseit needed to be.
But there was a whole notherchapter.
Oh gosh, if I could haveglimpsed into I this is where I
wanted to be.
And I kept saying that in themidst of all that crazy, is I
just want to be like two yearsfrom now.
SPEAKER_03 (40:52):
Same.
I I want to be over this.
I want to be done with thesefeelings and this hurt and this
pain and the guilt and all thefeelings.
Yeah, and I want to just get tothe next chapter, yeah.
But you can't gift that tosomeone else, it can't fast
forward the process.
SPEAKER_04 (41:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (41:14):
So, how did you maintain or prioritize your
health and wellness during thestudy?
SPEAKER_04 (41:21):
Well, luckily, I was teaching group fitness.
So that was my priority.
We're gonna hit an extra hardbaby.
SPEAKER_00 (41:30):
Here we go.
SPEAKER_04 (41:31):
Yeah.
But I could see how you couldget drowned in I'm gonna put me
last.
And that happens as just normalhuman beings, normal moms,
wives.
One thing that you had asked meabout, you know, we originally
spoke was like a theme song, andI have like seven, you know.
And running it out or being ableto work out, and if you're
(41:52):
someone who goes to the gym, youusually have a gym community,
and being able to talk to thosepeople.
And so I was lucky enough to bein a situation where that wasn't
hard for me.
I didn't have to make the time,the time was made, and I was
usually paid to be there, soeven better.
SPEAKER_03 (42:05):
But the physical movement is so huge, it's it's
huge, it impacts everything.
SPEAKER_04 (42:11):
Yes, even if you can get outside and walk 20 minutes
just to get sunshine, see thingsa little bit differently, pretty
much anybody can do that.
And I still do that when stuffgets overwhelming.
Yeah, I'm gonna go walk theblock.
SPEAKER_03 (42:23):
A timeout.
Yeah, I say that like nothingcrystallizes your values more
than going through a divorce.
What values crystallized foryou?
SPEAKER_04 (42:39):
Um, loyalty, love, which I think I would have said
I was really loved by my firsthusband.
Now being married to my husbandnow, it is a different love.
Tell me about that.
Gosh, like just being interestedin my opinion and respecting my
(43:03):
opinion and wanting my opinion,I can be myself and I'm not held
to a standard that that personwasn't willing to hold
themselves to.
And maybe just full acceptanceacceptance and uh someone being
vulnerable with you.
I think there was like a lack ofvulnerability coming from my
ex-husband.
(43:24):
You can't ground yourrelationship if there's no
vulnerability there.
And that's just something that Ithink being older and having now
that I didn't I wouldn't haveknown that that was missing, but
it was.
SPEAKER_03 (43:37):
You mentioned that you just want to fast forward
the clock and you just want tobe in the new chapter.
What did your divorce bring you?
What gifts or opportunities?
SPEAKER_04 (43:52):
Perseverance comes to mind because you have to uh
move through things you don'twant to do, especially being a
single mom.
Mom, nobody was mowing my grass,nobody was doing my dishes,
nobody was putting out my trash.
I had three little kids, myyoungest, nine, six, and we had
just turned three.
So that is a lot.
(44:12):
Nobody's carrying your kids inyour sleeping babies in from the
car.
You are.
It was like three rounds ofcarrying in sleepy babies.
It it was non-stop.
You have to move through thingsand you just have to do them.
And I I don't know that thathelps me as much as I can help
see with my kids.
Like, I know you don't want todo this project, but let's just
(44:33):
do it.
You don't have an option.
And so I feel like that valuehas really been lightened and
kind of surrendering to the factthat we don't control our lives
and we don't always get thingsthe way we think they're gonna
be given to us.
I would always pray for patiencebefore all this because I had
(44:54):
little kids, so every day, likegive me more patience.
Then I became a single mom and Igot what I prayed for.
So now I'm like really carefulto pray for patience.
Um you do have to be patient inlife in general for things to
come to you because they come insuch a better way than forcing
it.
(45:15):
If you just let it let ithappen.
Yeah, in the way of accept andsurrender.
SPEAKER_03 (45:21):
And if you're a person of faith, I think that's
part of the deal.
SPEAKER_04 (45:24):
Yeah, you're taught that, but then like when you
live through it, that is likeokay, I am done trying to do
this my way because I did, andthis is where I'm at.
So I will just move with you,and you will get me where I am
supposed to be, and it'll be thebest thing for me possible.
SPEAKER_03 (45:42):
Yeah, I remember just praying sometimes three
times a day and just being like,if you put the stone in front of
me, I will walk on it.
I don't know where the nextstone is, I don't know where
we're going, but I will walk onit if you present.
SPEAKER_04 (45:59):
Yeah, and also I won't unless you are like, This
is your stone.
Right.
Exactly.
Like, I also won't try to thinkthis stone is more secure.
Like, I'm gonna go on yourstone.
Yeah, but then also please closethe door, slam the window,
caution tape if that's not whatwe're supposed to do.
Yeah, yeah.
And I I feel like outsiderlooking in, because I'm not in
(46:19):
Atlanta living with you, seeingyou every day, but I also feel
like you're doing a great job.
SPEAKER_03 (46:24):
Thank you.
Because it's hard and yeah.
Lemonade from lemons.
Yeah, that's right.
So, in our final question, whatwould you like or what do you
hope people take away fromhearing your story?
SPEAKER_04 (46:39):
Just knowing that in your worst situation, there's
always brighter days ahead.
So that was the worst time of mylife.
You don't have anyone to talk tonormally because I was like, all
my friends are married.
Like it's just hard to havesomeone even be able to relate
to you, so that's really hard.
But when you can find someone,even if you don't personally
(47:02):
know them, you find them throughInstagram or whatever.
But if you can kind of look atwhere they are and know that
that's coming for you too, thatit will get better because it
has to.
But you just have to staygrounded in who you are,
accepting of who you are, andrelinquish control over what my
(47:24):
life should look like.
SPEAKER_03 (47:26):
Those shoulds, yeah, those should shoulds come back
360.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, thank you so much forsharing your story.
I did not know all of that.
You see a little bit on Facebookand you see glimpses of people's
stories, but you don't reallyknow people.
SPEAKER_04 (47:44):
It's scary to put it out there, and social media in
general can be a very not safeplace to put stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (47:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (47:51):
And you don't want everything out there forever,
and you don't know what you'redoing.
Like what you said, like I wastaking it one stone at a time.
And how do I even explain whatI'm going through in the midst
of what I'm going through?
Because I don't I don'tunderstand it yet.
So now I feel like I'm in a muchmore healed place to understand
why I went through that, and soI'm a more whole person to be
(48:14):
able to share what I wentthrough because I think I
understand it better.
And even though, like I said,some days still I'm like, man, I
can't believe I did that.
It was really stinking hard.
But here I am, and I canactually tell a story and not
cry about it and not think of itas devastation.
SPEAKER_03 (48:30):
Yeah, it's just the journey of how you got to where
you are today.
SPEAKER_04 (48:35):
Yeah.
And I would never be theChristian I am if I didn't go
through that ever.
My faith would never be astightly bound to Christ if I did
not go through that.
And I mean, I I'm in a Biblestudy, and sometimes I'll tell
people like, I I sometimes getjealous of who I was because I
was clinging so tight to him.
(48:56):
When everything is going good,you don't cling as hard.
Yeah, no, you'll kind of backoff and go to his hand or you
know, but I was like clinging tohis chest in the midst of it.
And so I would say to somebodyin the middle of it, as hard as
it is, be grateful that you canhave that closeness right now,
(49:17):
because that in itself isprecious in a really hard time
to be.
I'm not taking a step unless youput a stone there.
That doesn't stick with youevery day when everything is
going great.
SPEAKER_03 (49:27):
But oh that's such a good exclamation point to end
this.
So thank you so much.
Thank you.
Okay, yeah.
Thanks for listening to Bitteror Better, where we turn
heartbreak into healing andsurvival into strength.
Vulnerability is the last thingwe look at, the first thing we
(49:48):
look for in the first place.
That's what this is all about.
Real people are going out,sharing their stories, and
finding the rest of the past.
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